Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6514

1 Friday, 23 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 Well, if there is nothing that the parties would like to raise, we

10 will have the next witness.

11 Ms. Issa, are there any protective measures for the next witness?

12 MS. ISSA: Yes, good morning, Your Honour, there are. The next

13 witness will have image distortion and pseudonym is what he had requested.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 I guess there are no objections from the Defence team?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: None, Your Honour.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: We could have this witness, and the request for the

19 protective measures is granted.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 6515


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

4 Yes, Ms. Issa.

5 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Examined by Ms. Issa:

7 Q. Good morning, sir.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. In a moment, sir, the usher will give you a piece of paper with

10 your name of it, and I'm going to ask you to take a look at it and confirm

11 whether or not that is your name without saying it out loud.

12 A. Yes, this is my name, my first name and my last name.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. ISSA: And, Your Honour, that's exhibit P698 for the record.

15 Q. We'll just start off, sir, by going through your background

16 particulars. I understand that you were a member of the police services

17 since 1980 in Bosnia. Is that correct?

18 A. Correct. From the 1st of July, 1980, I have been working in the

19 police station in Srebrenica. Actually, I worked there until the 31st of

20 December, 1988, as an employee. And as of the 1st of January, 1989, I

21 have been in the information protection service, crypto protection.

22 MS. ISSA: Perhaps, Your Honour, we might go into private session,

23 but very briefly.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

25 [Private session]

Page 6516

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 MS. ISSA:

20 Q. Now, sir, during the war, that is from 1992 until -- through 1995,

21 I understand that you were deployed to the Skelani police station. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes, I was.

24 Q. Okay. And you were essentially performing the same duties that

25 you told us about earlier, if you can just indicate yes or no?

Page 6517

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how long, sir, did you perform these duties at the Skelani

3 police station?

4 A. From 1992 until 1996.

5 Q. All right. And turning specifically, sir, to July of 1995, you

6 were still connected to the Skelani police station, as you've indicated.

7 Can you tell us where you were in July of 1995 when Srebrenica fell.

8 A. When Srebrenica fell, I happened to be in Konjevic Polje. I was

9 there from the 4th of July until the 16th or thereabouts.

10 Q. Okay. And were you attached to a particular unit while there?

11 A. I was a member of the 6th Company of the public security services

12 centre in Zvornik, which had about 26 members, 22 of whom were conscripts.

13 Q. Okay. And can you explain how it came about that you became

14 attached to the 6th Company.

15 A. The entire personnel of the Zvornik public security station was

16 divided into several companies per age, per age group. The 6th Company

17 included older members who rarely went to the field. Before us, there had

18 been I think the 5th Company in Zvornik, whom we replaced in

19 Konjevic Polje on the 4th of July.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you. And when you were deployed to Konjevic Polje,

21 what were your instructions?

22 A. Could you please clarify. Are you referring to me personally or

23 the unit?

24 Q. Well, let's start with you and then we'll deal with the unit.

25 A. Specifically I had assignments concerning protection and

Page 6518

1 communication service maintenance through the radio station.

2 Q. Okay. And what about the unit? What instructions were given to

3 the unit?

4 A. Specific tasks given to our unit was to secure the road in

5 Konjevic Polje and the checkpoint which existed at the time and which was

6 under the control of the Bratunac police station and which was manned by

7 three to four people. As for the assignments at that checkpoint, these

8 included traffic goods and passenger control and vehicle control as well.

9 Q. Okay. And when you were deployed to the checkpoint on the 4th of

10 July, sir, did you know that there were plans in place to attack

11 Srebrenica?

12 A. No. We were not aware of that, at least I personally wasn't aware

13 of that. And I don't think that others knew about it either at the time.

14 Q. You're saying that it wasn't communicated to the communications

15 officer; there was no information about the imminent attack at all. Is

16 that what you're? Is that correct?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. Mischaracterisation of the testimony.

18 He indicated he wasn't aware. Now there's a communication to the

19 communication officer. If it's rephrased I will have no objection. But

20 as phrased, I believe it assumes a fact not in evidence.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 Ms. Issa, you may ask why you don't think that other members knew

23 about that attack.

24 MS. ISSA: Perhaps, Your Honour, we can go very briefly into

25 private session and we can clarify things. I was trying to be a bit

Page 6519

1 cryptic because we are in open session.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, we'll go to private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 MS. ISSA:

19 Q. Can you explain, sir, when did you first became aware that there

20 was military activity around Srebrenica.

21 A. I think it was on the 11th of July when we could already hear

22 fighting going on around Srebrenica, explosions. And I think that it was

23 in the afternoon hours on that day that we heard detonations and we also

24 heard the sound of a plane. But before that, nothing except for the fact

25 that vehicles had been passing through.

Page 6520

1 Q. Okay. And around what day or what days would you say did you see

2 vehicles passing through?

3 A. It could have been on the 7th or the 8th of July, thereabouts.

4 The 7th or the 8th, I don't recall the exact date, though.

5 Q. And when you say vehicles were passing through, through where and

6 in what direction?

7 A. Vehicles were passing through the checkpoint in the direction of

8 Bratunac.

9 Q. Okay. And what types of vehicles did you see?

10 A. There were buses, trucks, guns or Howitzers, I'm not sure. But I

11 cannot tell you the exact number of those vehicles, I wasn't really paying

12 attention to them. So I don't know.

13 Q. And do you know which army the vehicles were connected to, sir?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. Now, sir, you indicated that around the 10th and 11th of July, you

16 also could hear fighting and bombs coming from the direction of

17 Srebrenica. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you see anything at that point? Did you see any movement

20 during that time?

21 A. No, not at that time. I don't remember.

22 Q. Perhaps I can help you -- assist you in refreshing your memory.

23 Do you recall, sir, being interviewed in Banja Luka by investigators on

24 March 16th, 2001? Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6521

1 Q. And you gave investigators a statement?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In a moment, sir, I'm going to give you a copy of that statement

4 and I'm going to ask you to look at a specific section.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. To assist you in refreshing your memory. I'm going to ask you,

7 sir, to refer to page 18, lines 1 through 13, in your statement. Read

8 that to yourself.

9 MS. ISSA: For the record, in the English transcript, Your Honour,

10 it's page 20, line 1 through about 10.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one question, please. Page 18

12 starting from line 1 to?

13 MS. ISSA:

14 Q. 13. You can start reading yourself, sir, and if it helps jog your

15 memory, you can stop?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: If I read the text correctly, it refers to 12 and

19 13th in his statement. And the question refers to -- his answer was on

20 the 10th or the 11th. So perhaps if the question was revised he may not

21 need to have his memory refreshed. I don't want to give the appearance

22 that the gentleman is being less than cooperative. But the question was

23 on the 10th or 11th. In his statement it talks about the 12th or the

24 13th. So perhaps if the question was a little bit wider in scope, it

25 would assist the gentleman.

Page 6522


2 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I -- when he said the 10th or the 11th,

3 and I picked that up from his answer, I got -- was under the impression

4 that he was giving an approximate date. I wasn't focusing on being that

5 particular. But I can revise the question, if Your Honour wishes me to do

6 so.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.


9 Q. Sir, did you see any movement by way of buses or otherwise on

10 other days than the 12th or 13th?

11 A. On the 12th and the 13th, there was movement of vehicles from the

12 direction of Bratunac, mostly buses carrying people, civilians, women and

13 children. They were on those buses. There was a whole convoy of buses.

14 Q. Okay. And do you know who organised or coordinated those buses?

15 Was it the police or the army?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I would appreciate that there be no leading

19 questions. She asked: Do you know who organised. No problem. Then she

20 gives a multiple choice. There I have the problem. We have discussed

21 this in the past. I would appreciate it, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe you could rephrase your question,

23 Ms. Issa.

24 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I didn't think that was leading. We can

25 stick to the broader question, I suppose, if it helps.

Page 6523

1 Q. Do you know who organised, sir, the movement of the buses or

2 coordinated the movement of the buses?

3 A. No, I don't know whom organised the bus transport.

4 Q. Okay. Did you see any units of the Army of the Republika Srpska,

5 sir, whilst you were stationed at Konjevic Polje?

6 A. Apart from the unit which was stationed there from before the

7 Zilje [as interpreted] unit, at the beginning there were no others --

8 excuse me, engineering unit. Later there were other units as well, but I

9 don't know where they had come from.

10 Q. And when you say "later there were other units as well," when did

11 you mean? When did those units appear or arrive?

12 A. I'm referring to the period when this transport of people

13 occurred, the 12th, the 13th, and the 14th, when those people were being

14 transported in a convoy.

15 Q. Okay. And are you saying then, sir, that there were other units

16 at the time when these people were transported in the convoy that you're

17 not able to identify?

18 A. It is possible that there were members of the police as well. But

19 who they were, I don't know.

20 Q. Okay. Can you describe what they were wearing, members of these

21 other units?

22 A. I didn't have any direct contact with them, because I was

23 stationed in the house where the command of the 6th Company was quartered.

24 So as for the military, I don't know. They probably wore those

25 camouflage, green camouflage uniforms. The police also had overalls,

Page 6524

1 fatigues that they used when going into the field.

2 Q. And what colour was the police uniform?

3 A. As far as our unit is concerned, we had dark blue camouflage

4 uniform, whereas others -- other units, they had camouflage overalls. I

5 don't know what other uniform they had, because again, I didn't have any

6 direct contact with them.

7 Q. Okay. Now, indicated, sir, that there was one unit which you

8 identified specifically, and that was the engineering unit. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, but that unit had been there for a while. This unit

11 consisted mostly of older men, and they were accommodated in the building

12 of the local elementary school in Konjevic Polje.

13 Q. Okay. And where was your unit stationed?

14 A. Part of our unit was stationed at the elementary school as well.

15 And six or seven members were accommodated in a house not far from the

16 headquarters of the engineering unit. This house was not finished.

17 Q. Okay. And where were you specifically located, sir, personally?

18 Were you in the school or in the house?

19 A. In the house, where the headquarters was.

20 Q. All right. Now, I understand, sir, that you drew a sketch of your

21 location and the location of the engineering unit when you met with

22 investigators in Banja Luka. Do you remember doing that? I'm going to

23 show you a copy of the sketch, which I showed you when we met the other

24 day -- you have to answer in the microphone, sir, not just nod.

25 A. Yes.

Page 6525

1 MS. ISSA: I'm going to ask the assistance of Madam Usher,

2 Your Honour, and I'm going to be referring to Exhibit P694. And just for

3 the record, Your Honour, we are folding over the document, so as not to

4 reveal the witness's name.

5 Q. Now, if you can take the pointer, sir, and first of all indicate

6 the location of the school that you drew on the sketch.

7 A. [Indicates].

8 Q. All right. And so for the record, you're referring to the

9 building that's entitled skola. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And where was the command unit located, where was the house

12 located?

13 A. [Indicates].

14 Q. All right. So it's located to the left, the furthest house to the

15 left. And then there's another house in between. And can you identify

16 what that house is or that building is.

17 A. Between the school and our headquarters, the engineering

18 headquarters or the command that I'm showing now.

19 Q. Okay. So you're now telling us that there was an additional spot

20 or place for the engineering unit where they maintained their headquarters

21 in addition to where -- in addition to the school that you told us about

22 before?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. Turning then next to the next exhibit which is

25 P8.1.

Page 6526

1 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Madam Usher. This is just to give us a

2 slightly different visual viewpoint.

3 Q. Can you indicate, sir, on that photograph approximately where your

4 location was.

5 A. We were approximately in this area that is not very well visible.

6 It's a road from Bratunac towards the crossroads on the right. Just

7 outside our command, there was an old structure, and you can't see this

8 building. But it should be somewhere here where I'm pointing right now.

9 Q. The furthest right-hand side of the photograph. Thank you. I'm

10 going to --

11 A. On the right-hand side, yes, of the photograph. The road from

12 Bratunac towards the crossroads with Konjevic Polje.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm going to move on then to the next exhibit, if

14 we can have the assistance of Madam Usher, and that is P8.3 -- sorry,

15 P8.2. Do you recognise this photograph, sir, what's depicted in this

16 photograph?

17 A. On this photo you can see the primary school in Konjevic Polje and

18 the gate through which you enter the school. So that's the school in

19 Konjevic Polje.

20 Q. Okay. And that's the school where both your -- members of your

21 unit and members of the engineering unit were located. Is that correct?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. I'm going to be dealing with another exhibit. I apologise to

24 Madam Usher. There are just a few more exhibits. I'm trying to deal with

25 them all at once so that we could move quickly. 8.3 --

Page 6527

1 MS. ISSA: 695, I apologise, Your Honour. We actually don't have

2 8.3.

3 Q. Do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph, sir?

4 A. On this photo you can see the house where our police command was,

5 the command of our unit.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Dealing then with Exhibit 696, can you

7 indicate, sir, what is depicted in that photograph.

8 A. On this photo, if I can see well, this is also the primary school

9 in Konjevic Polje and the gate leading to the yard.

10 Q. Okay. There's a building that we see to the left-hand side of the

11 photograph. Can you -- do you know what that building is?

12 A. It was something like a reception building. I don't know what

13 exactly to call it, or maybe the guardhouse.

14 Q. Okay. And lastly then, Exhibit P697. What is depicted in this

15 photograph, sir?

16 A. This is the road leading from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje. On the

17 right-hand side was the building of our command, and you can also see

18 this, the command of the engineering unit.

19 Q. Could you point to that please, sir, the command of the

20 engineering unit.

21 A. I think that's it.

22 Q. All right. So it's the house in the background which is to the

23 furthest most right of the picture. Is that correct?

24 A. I think so.

25 Q. All right. Thank you. That's the last exhibit I'm referring to.

Page 6528

1 MS. ISSA: And I thank Madam Usher for her assistance.

2 Q. Now, sir, we've talked a little bit about the dress -- excuse

3 me -- the dress code of the police and the military. More specifically,

4 can you indicate how you were dressed when you were at Konjevic Polje.

5 A. I wore a blue camouflage uniform consisting of a vest, a blue vest

6 and blue trousers, camouflage blue. And I was dressed the same as all the

7 other members of our unit.

8 Q. Okay. And what day did you arrive at Konjevic Polje?

9 A. On the 4th of July I think, in the afternoon.

10 Q. And how long did you stay there, until what day?

11 A. I think I personally stayed until the 15th or maybe the 16th of

12 July, I'm not sir. I know that I returned before the others.

13 Q. Okay. Now, turning then to the 13th of July, sir, did you on that

14 day come into contact with Muslim men who had surrendered themselves?

15 A. On the 13th of July, I came across two Muslims in that house where

16 the police command was located.

17 Q. Okay. And can you explain how that came about.

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6529

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 Q. Okay. And what did you do once you recognised him?

4 A. Mirko said about the other man, the other Muslim, that that used

5 to be his superior in Bratunac, because Mirko used to work in the Bratunac

6 police station before the war. We asked them to sit down. Hasan looked

7 terribly frightened, just as the other man.

8 Q. Okay. Now, you keep referring to this other man that was with

9 Hasan. Do you know what this other man's name was? Who was this other

10 man?

11 A. I think his name is Resid. I didn't know the man personally.

12 Q. Okay. And what was his last name?

13 A. Sinanovic.

14 Q. Okay. And what about Hasan, what was his last name?

15 A. I think his name was Salihovic.

16 Q. And can you just clarify, sir, exactly how it is that the men were

17 brought into the house, who brought them there.

18 A. Dusko Neskovic and Mirko Peric brought them into that house.

19 Q. Okay. And you've now indicated that you -- once you recognised

20 Hasan you had both men to sit down, and then what happened?

21 A. I told them to relax, not to be nervous, not to be afraid. I told

22 Hasan, Please, you can relax, just as we were sitting together in 1992,

23 together when we were having coffee, together in the police station when

24 we were colleagues. And he did relax a bit. I asked them if they wanted

25 to eat or have a drink. Hasan said, I dare not tell you, but I hadn't had

Page 6530

1 any food or drink of water for two days and two nights.

2 After that, me and my colleagues found some breakfast, some Spam,

3 bread, yogurt, milk, and we offered them what we had. We made coffee, sat

4 down together with them and talked. He told us about what a hard time he

5 had during the war in Srebrenica. We gave him cigarettes. Hasan took

6 some, but Resid said, No, I don't want anything from you, whereas Hasan

7 did eat with us.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. And how long did they remain in the house?

9 A. In my judgement, it would have been an hour, maybe an hour and a

10 half. I'm not sure because in the meantime shooting started outside. We

11 could hear it from the direction of the woods. Muslims had started to

12 shoot. From up there, from the road, it seemed the Serbs were coming on

13 and there was the whizzing of bullets everywhere.

14 Q. And what happened to these prisoners after the hour or so that

15 they remained in the house?

16 A. When the shooting died down, not long after that a passenger

17 vehicle arrived. I think it was a VW Golf. And there were two men inside

18 wearing military uniforms.

19 Q. Okay. And did you recognise either of these men?

20 A. I recognised one of them, but I didn't know the other one.

21 Q. Okay. And who was it that you recognised?

22 A. I recognised Momir Nikolic.

23 Q. And the other man that was with him, you indicated that you didn't

24 recognise him. Can you tell us --

25 A. I didn't know the other one.

Page 6531

1 Q. Okay. And what did they do when they arrived in the house,

2 Momir Nikolic and this other man?

3 A. When they came inside, they sat down. Momir shook hands with this

4 man, Resid, because they knew each other. Momir asked him about those

5 units up there, how many Muslim men under arms had crossed over, but there

6 was no mistreatment. And then he asked him, How come that you're on the

7 wrong side, Resid? And Resid replied, We don't know yet who is on the

8 wrong side, Momir. Time will show.

9 Q. And what happened after they had this conversation?

10 A. After that exchange, Momir told them that they had to come with

11 him. And they got into the car with Momir. I think it was the VW Golf.

12 And they left. I think Momir didn't know this other man, Salihovic.

13 Q. What makes you say that?

14 A. Because he was much younger. They didn't come across each other

15 before. He had no opportunity to meet him.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last part of the

17 answer.

18 MS. ISSA:

19 Q. Can you please, sir, repeat the last part of your answer so the

20 interpreter can translate it for us.

21 A. Hasan Salihovic was of no interest to Momir, because Momir didn't

22 know the man. He was much younger than Momir, whereas he knew Resid

23 because Resid was from Bratunac originally.

24 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated, sir, earlier that both Momir and the

25 other person with him were wearing military uniforms. Can you just

Page 6532

1 briefly describe the colour and what they were wearing.

2 A. They were wearing dark green camouflage military uniforms.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you. What -- where did they go after they left the

4 house?

5 A. They went towards the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, I

6 think in the direction of Bratunac. But I can't say that for sure. But

7 in all likelihood they went towards Bratunac.

8 Q. And did they say anything about where they were taking these men?

9 A. They didn't tell us anything. They just said the men had to come

10 with them.

11 Q. Do you know where the men had initially surrendered, where they

12 were brought from by your colleagues Dusko and Peric?

13 A. I don't know where they were surrendered, but they were brought

14 from the direction of the checkpoint.

15 Q. Okay. Did you see any other prisoners or come into contact with

16 any other Bosnian Muslim prisoners, aside from the two you've described?

17 A. No. No. I don't know about anyone else.

18 Q. Okay.

19 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, perhaps if we can go into private session

20 briefly for just a couple of questions.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

22 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6533












12 Page 6533 redacted, private session














Page 6534












12 Page 6534 redacted, private session














Page 6535

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in open session.

14 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

15 Q. Now, sir, going back to the two men that you described earlier,

16 Rasid and Hasan, have you ever seen these two men since that time?

17 A. No. No, I've never seen them again.

18 Q. Earlier, sir, you also indicated - and I just want to go back to

19 an earlier point relating to the arrival of other units. Can you describe

20 what you saw; can you describe the arrival of the other units in Konjevic

21 Polje.

22 A. I don't know exactly how they arrived and -- at least if you mean

23 the 13th when the convoys were passing.

24 Q. I'm talking, sir, about the units. You said there were many, many

25 units that arrived at some point, some of which could have been military

Page 6536

1 and some of which could have been police. This is when -- after you

2 arrived in Konjevic Polje at some point.

3 A. I'm not quite clear about this. Do you mean the period around the

4 8th or the 9th of July?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. The units came on buses, that is the troops arrived on buses and

7 their equipment was transported on lorries. I don't know exactly from

8 which direction they arrived, but they were moving towards Bratunac.

9 Q. Okay. Do you know an individual, sir, named Nenad Deronjic?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Can you tell us who he is?

12 A. Nenad Deronjic is a policeman who worked in the Srebrenica police

13 station until 1992, when he transferred to Bratunac, to the police station

14 there, and he's still employed there. He graduated from the secondary

15 school, together with Hasan, and they were deployed in Gradacac after

16 their training. And just before the war they were working together in

17 Srebrenica, that's where the war found them.

18 Q. And did you see them in Konjevic Polje during the time that you

19 were stationed there?

20 A. Nenad Deronjic was occasionally in Konjevic Polje, because at the

21 time he was attached to the Bratunac police station, which manned the

22 checkpoint in Konjevic Polje. So he occasionally did stints at the

23 checkpoint, but I cannot tell you exactly until when, if it was the 11th

24 or the 12th. When Srebrenica fell, an order came from the public security

25 centre in Zvornik that all policemen who worked in Srebrenica until the

Page 6537

1 war should go to Srebrenica to the police station there to set up a new

2 police station. And everybody reported under orders, and I suppose he

3 did, too. I know that he worked in Srebrenica during the war, because

4 there was some policemen who worked in Vlasenica.

5 Q. Now, you said that he may have remained stationed at Konjevic

6 Polje until around the 11th or so --

7 MR. KARNAVAS: He did not say, or so, Your Honour. I object. If

8 she's going to quote she should quote correctly. Or the 12th. There's a

9 big difference. Because this goes to Momir Nikolic's assertion that he

10 saw Nenad Deronjic there on the 13th, something that this gentleman has

11 indicated that he did not see him. It's in his statement. So if she's

12 going to say or so, she should say the 12th. Because that's what the

13 gentleman said, 11th or 12th.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I know that the gentleman is not sure whether

15 it's the 11th or 12th. Why don't we go day by day. You try 11th and then

16 12th.

17 MS. ISSA: Okay, Your Honour. I will do that.

18 Q. Sir, you indicated you weren't sure whether you saw Nenad Deronjic

19 on the 11th or 12th. Do you know what day -- until what day he stayed at

20 Konjevic Polje?

21 A. I don't know exactly until what day, but I know that the police

22 station in Srebrenica was established on the 12th, in the afternoon hours

23 of that day, as far as I know. And I know that all the employees who had

24 worked in the Srebrenica police station before the war had to report. But

25 I don't know when exactly he went there and I didn't see him there.

Page 6538

1 Q. Okay. And do you know when exactly -- do you then know when he

2 left?

3 A. No, I don't.

4 Q. Okay. Now, sir, if there was information relating to a policeman

5 that was killed along the road between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje, did

6 you see or here anything about that? Did you receive any communication in

7 relation to that?

8 A. On the road between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje, no, I'm not aware

9 of anything concerning a killing of a police officer. As for the

10 communications generally speaking, we were not able to communicate with

11 other units, because we only had two UKT stations, two Motorolas with

12 which we were able to communicate amongst ourselves only. Those radio

13 stations are located at Skelani, were located at Skelani. They had their

14 channels. And they used the transmitter in the repeater in Bajina Basta.

15 So I could talk to the commander. The commander and I had the Motorola,

16 but we didn't have communication with others. Only when it was necessary

17 to communicate with the Bratunac police station we would do that, using

18 the fixed radio station, UKT station, from the checkpoint.

19 Q. Okay. And who was the -- going on to a different topic, sir. Who

20 was the commander of the engineering unit stationed at Konjevic Polje. Do

21 you recall?

22 A. I think it was Mico Avramovic.

23 MS. ISSA: All right, Your Honour, I am close to my -- the end of

24 my examination, if not the end. I don't know if Your Honour wishes to

25 take the break at this point or not. I do want to confer with my

Page 6539

1 colleague for a few minutes. If you would like me to do that at this

2 point or just take the break, I'm happy to do it either way.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, I hope that you could finish your direct

4 examination before the break so the Defence counsel could have at least 30

5 minutes to digest our direct examination.

6 MS. ISSA: Certainly, Your Honour. If I can just have the Court's

7 indulgence for a moment, please.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.

9 [Prosecution counsel confer]

10 MS. ISSA: I just wanted to confirm one thing, Your Honour. My

11 direct examination is complete. I am finished.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 Well, Mr. Karnavas, do you want to have your cross-examination now

14 or we have an early break, then we'll come back?

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I would suggest that we have an early

16 break. I don't anticipate having a very long cross, and I'm sure with the

17 break I could probably even streamline it more so that we could be as

18 efficient as possible.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

20 So we'll be back at 20 minutes to 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.06 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.41 a.m.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas. Your cross-examination, please.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

Page 6540

1 Q. Good morning, sir.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. I just have a few questions. Hopefully we can get you out of here

4 within a half an hour. Sir, as I understand it you've told us today, as

5 you've said in the past, that you were with the 6th Company of the public

6 security service centre. Correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Now -- and that was of Zvornik. Correct?

9 A. Public security centre Zvornik, yes.

10 Q. All right. Now, you've indicated that on July 4th, 1995, you went

11 to be stationed for a period of time at the intersection there by Konjevic

12 Polje?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when the 6th Company came, the 5th that had been there left;

15 you were replacing them?

16 A. The 5th Company had been there, and I was a member of the 6th

17 Company, which had 26 men, out of whom there were 22 who were on duty. So

18 it was the 6th Company, my company, that replaced the 5th one.

19 Q. Correct. And that's what I meant. I apologise for the confusion.

20 Now, the 5th Company had been there for some time, had it not?

21 A. Yes, but before the 5th Company, there had been other companies

22 there who would stay for a number of days and then would be replaced by

23 another. So they rotated.

24 Q. Correct. And that's exactly my point. That this had been a

25 checkpoint for some period of time prior to your arrival to that location?

Page 6541

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And it was during your time there that Srebrenica fell?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, you've indicated that the Bratunac police were also there,

5 had a checkpoint as well?

6 A. This checkpoint was -- or rather, belonged to the Bratunac police

7 station, and their men worked there in shifts.

8 Q. All right. Now, if we could show you the exhibit -- the drawing

9 that you made, perhaps you could point out to us where the checkpoint was

10 for the Bratunac police. And I'm referring to Exhibit P694.

11 A. This part here, this is the road from Zvornik to the junction to

12 Konjevic Polje. This one here goes towards Bratunac, and here -- there's

13 a bridge here. This is the road to Milici. The checkpoint was here, at

14 this point that I'm indicating right now. There was a small container or

15 portacabin, what I'm showing -- what I'm indicating right now.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Just for the record, the gentleman indicated a

17 square that is on the right-hand corner or right side of the diagram right

18 next to the word "most," which is my understanding for the word "bridge."

19 Q. Sir, if you could show us where the container was you indicated, I

20 take it, in the middle of the road. If you could go back to the diagram

21 and show us where.

22 A. Here, where you can read the words "punkt" that is a checkpoint

23 before the Bratunac police station -- just before the bridge, where I'm

24 indicating now. This is where the container was and this is where the

25 police were stationed.

Page 6542

1 Q. All right. And as I understand, you would have been stationed

2 across the road, where you have indicated earlier. Correct?

3 A. Yes. Where you can read the words "komanda," command, this is

4 where we were accommodated.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, if I can briefly ask you some questions about

6 where -- the physical description of that particular building where you

7 were -- you had your headquarters. Were you working, you personally,

8 given your expertise, your speciality, were you working inside or outside?

9 A. The work was mainly inside, inside the building.

10 Q. And did you primarily -- when you worked primarily -- when you

11 worked in the building, did you have a -- were you in a room with a view,

12 with a window and a view?

13 A. The entrance was from the road, from the Konjevic Polje/Bratunac

14 junction. That's where you entered the building from. It was a

15 one-storey building. The windows were facing the road, the

16 Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road.

17 Q. But where you were -- your office was and the communications

18 centre was, where I assume you must have been working out of, did that

19 room have a window with a view of the road?

20 A. The bedroom where we slept was upstairs. The short-wavelength

21 station was that. The fixed one was out of order; we couldn't use it. So

22 we used just a small Motorola. We had two such Motorolas. The commander

23 had one and me and a colleague from Sekovici who worked with me at the

24 time had the other one.

25 Q. But did that room have a view of the room - that's what my main

Page 6543

1 question was - or were you facing in another direction?

2 A. No. No. If we happened to be there all the time, inside the

3 room. But when you get out of the room, there is a corridor, there is a

4 hall, from where you could see outside, that is the road. You could see

5 the road from the window.

6 Q. Just to be clear, when you are inside that room and you're working

7 or whenever you need to be there, you cannot see anything from that

8 window. But when you're not inside that room and you're in the corridor

9 or other parts of that house, you might be able to have a view?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, you indicated that part of your function there, as I

12 understand it, was to control the traffic of goods, of passengers, and of

13 vehicles. Correct?

14 A. That work was done by the colleagues from the Bratunac police

15 station. We were there only to provide assistance to them when necessary,

16 because they would have only two to three men there who worked in shifts.

17 So we were there to assist them in case it was necessary, in case of

18 problems.

19 Q. Okay. Now, when you say "assist," does that mean physically being

20 at the checkpoint and filling in if they were low on manpower?

21 A. Yes. Yes, you could describe it that way, I guess. If they

22 needed help, we were there. But there were also Serbian refugees living

23 in the area at the time, in the area of Konjevic Polje.

24 Q. All right. Well, when you say now that you were there to

25 control - I'm saying in the general sense - what exactly does that mean?

Page 6544

1 What -- could you describe exactly, how do you control traffic or how do

2 you control the vehicles or the passengers. What exactly do you do?

3 A. That particular work was done by the colleagues from Bratunac; we

4 didn't do that. And I was never directly at the checkpoint. I would only

5 pass by from time to time. There was a water tap there where we went to

6 get drinking water, but as far as the traffic control was concerned, it

7 was the people from Bratunac who took care of that. And they reported to

8 their police station on the number of vehicles or passengers, goods that

9 they controlled. And they also controlled smuggling and they reported on

10 their work to the Bratunac police station, their original police station.

11 Q. All right. Now, you also indicated that there was an engineering

12 company over there in that area?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us -- and maybe you have and I wasn't paying

15 attention, but could you tell us how large was that, how many people from

16 the engineering company were there?

17 A. I'm not aware of the exact number of men. In my assessment, there

18 were not that many people but -- and that they were mostly older men.

19 Q. Okay. Now, when you say "older men," like you and me?

20 A. Yes, even older. There were people my age as well.

21 Q. Okay. And when you arrived there on July 4th, was the engineering

22 company there already, or did they arrive sometime after July 4th?

23 A. The engineering unit had been there for a while. I don't know

24 when they arrived, but I know that they were stationed there -- they had

25 been stationed for a while before we arrived.

Page 6545

1 Q. Okay. Do you know exactly for how long. Could it have been weeks

2 or months that they had been there?

3 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

4 Q. Okay. And what exactly was their function, if you know? What

5 were they -- were they ...

6 A. No, I don't know that. What specific tasks they had, I don't

7 know.

8 Q. Let me ask you this: I know it's called an engineering company,

9 but was this a fighting unit, a unit dedicated to fighting, going out on

10 reconnaissance, for instance?

11 A. No, I don't know. When you look at the composition of the unit

12 and the age of the men, people I had opportunity to meet at the time,

13 though I wasn't really paying attention to that -- no, no. I really don't

14 know. I cannot give you an answer to that, whether they could be used for

15 fighting. No, I don't know really.

16 Q. Now, you indicated that they were about your age or somewhat

17 older. How old were you at the time?

18 A. How old I was? I was 44, 45 years old.

19 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall whether -- were you there when an

20 incident occurred where someone from the engineering company was killed?

21 A. No, I don't know about that.

22 Q. Okay. You're not aware of any incident where someone in the

23 engineering company was killed?

24 A. No, I'm not aware of any such incident. It may have been -- it

25 may have happened during that period of time when there was shooting

Page 6546

1 coming from the woods and from the road to the woods. This is when it

2 could have happened, but I'm not aware of that. I don't know. Bullets

3 were flying around. One could easily get killed. I remember that the

4 fighting lasted -- the shooting lasted for half an hour.

5 Q. Okay. I take it you did not participate in that event, go out,

6 grab our weapon, and try to join the fighting or the shooting?

7 A. No. At the time in the house where we were, there were two

8 colleagues of Muslim ethnicity. And four of us, we happened to be inside,

9 inside the room, when this was going on, when this shooting from all sides

10 was taking place.

11 Q. Did your unit participate in any of that shooting?

12 A. Yes. Other members of my unit did participate, but I don't know

13 exactly where they were located, where they were deployed, whether they

14 were on the road or elsewhere. I don't know.

15 Q. Was that based on orders given to them or based on the necessity

16 at the moment, in other words out of self defence?

17 A. I don't understand what you mean. Could you clarify it, please.

18 Q. Okay. Well, if somebody is shooting at you, obviously you're

19 going to react; that's one scenario, one possibility.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. However, as you've indicated, at some point the situation on the

22 road changed when Srebrenica fell. And my question is: When that

23 situation changed, were you given specific orders, your unit, were they

24 given orders, to participate in any activities that were going on in that

25 vicinity?

Page 6547

1 A. That shooting started spontaneously and suddenly. The convoy

2 carrying people were supposed to pass through, and then it stopped and the

3 shooting started. It lasted for about half an hour perhaps. And when the

4 shooting stopped, the convoy started again on its way.

5 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to ask a more specific question. Did

6 your unit ever get any orders that would have changed the mission or the

7 tasks that you were there to normally perform, that is, the controlling or

8 assisting the Bratunac police with controlling that intersection?

9 A. I don't know if they received any specific tasks at that time. I

10 don't know if the commander received anything, any orders apart from

11 manning the checkpoint and securing the road and securing the passage of

12 the convoys. I don't know about that.

13 Q. All right. But would it be fair that conclude that you yourself

14 personally wasn't given a change of task, in other words to participate in

15 any activities that were happening on the 12th, the 13th, the 14th?

16 A. No. No. I don't remember being given any such orders.

17 Q. All right. Now, as we understand it, at some point on the 13th,

18 General Mladic came by that area. Do you recall seeing General Mladic,

19 his entourage?

20 A. I didn't see him. Maybe the men who were at the checkpoint or

21 around the checkpoint at the time could have seen him, but not me. I

22 spent most of the time on the premises in the house I described, and I

23 didn't see him. He may have passed through, but I didn't see him.

24 Q. Were you -- do you know whether -- do you recall seeing any UN

25 vehicles, large vehicles, at that time, any APCs?

Page 6548

1 A. I didn't see them myself, but I heard from my colleagues that they

2 were there. But who was inside that vehicle and where there were driving,

3 I don't know.

4 Q. When you say you heard from your colleagues, was that -- did you

5 hear it back then during those days, or did you hear it sometime after?

6 A. Later.

7 Q. Later, is it months, weeks, or just hours and days?

8 A. Maybe in the evening.

9 Q. All right. Now, on the -- on that particular day, I want to focus

10 our attention now to the two individuals that had come, one of whom you

11 knew, that were prisoners at the time. And you knew one of them.

12 Correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You had worked with this individual?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And as I understand, you were trying to be hospitable to him and

17 his companion, the other individual. Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You provided them with food and milk, I believe, and sour milk or

20 yogurt, and gave them some food. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And it's my understanding from your statement, or from the

23 proofing notes that it was your impression at the time that they had been

24 brought there to be protected. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6549

1 Q. And it was only later that two individuals came, one of whom was

2 Momir Nikolic. Correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. They came, I believe, in a Golf, in a Golf car?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And Momir Nikolic knew one of the gentlemen. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And it's at that point in time when it was -- it was at that point

9 in time when you heard Mr. Nikolic say to the gentleman words to the

10 effect: What brought you here, Resid? How come you are on the wrong

11 side? Correct? Or words to that effect?

12 A. Yes, I heard it said then. But they said other things from which

13 I could conclude they knew each other very well, and they talked mostly

14 about the situation in Srebrenica and about the life as it used to be

15 before the war and the current problems. And while we were together,

16 nobody mistreated anyone. Momir didn't do anything. But from the things

17 they said, I understood Momir knew Resid very well, whereas he didn't know

18 Salihovic and he didn't pay attention to him at all. He didn't know the

19 man, because Salihovic who was much younger than both Momir and myself.

20 Q. Now, when reading the quote that you gave to the Office of the

21 Prosecution back on 16 March 2001 when you were giving a statement, from

22 reading that, in English at least --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- it appears that Momir Nikolic was being somewhat sarcastic

25 when he asked Mr. Resid what brought him here and how come he was on the

Page 6550

1 wrong side --

2 MS. ISSA: Excuse me, Your Honour.


4 MS. ISSA: Perhaps we can have a specific reference and the

5 witness can have a specific reference to the quote that my friend is

6 referring to so that he can --

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not her friend, but it's page 40, Your Honour,

8 it's from page 40 it's on line 17. Page 40. And for the record, this can

9 be marked for identification purposes as D87.

10 MS. ISSA: And, Your Honour, I use the term "my friend," in a way

11 that counsel normally refer to one another. But if Mr. Karnavas doesn't

12 wish me to refer to him in that way, that's fine. That's what I'm used to

13 from my system, but I will remember that in the future.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Well, Mr. Karnavas, maybe the word "sarcastic" is not the proper

16 expression and the proper characterisation.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm asking the gentleman, sir, to give us what his

18 impression was. Was it said in a -- with irony, because there was an

19 earlier instance where Momir Nikolic had told a sick person, What kind of

20 a neighbour would I be if I didn't get you well so that you could come

21 back and shoot at us? I think we all got the impression especially since

22 after that, Mr. Momir Nikolic was sentenced, where he was trying to

23 explain to us all his contrition and how bad he felt --

24 JUDGE LIU: Let's hear what the witness is going to tell us.


Page 6551

1 Q. When you heard Mr. Nikolic utter those words that you have stated,

2 which is on the record here that was tape recorded by the Prosecutor when

3 you were interviewed, what was your impression? Was Mr. Nikolic merely

4 trying to find out why he was on the wrong side, or was he being ironic

5 and sarcastic, if you know?

6 A. Whether there was irony or sarcasm in his tone, I couldn't decide,

7 nor could I understand how the other man replied, how he meant it when he

8 said, Time will show who's on the wrong side. I don't know whether it was

9 ironic or sarcastic. I don't know what to say. In any case, that was the

10 exchange they had.

11 Q. Okay. Needless to say that those two particular gentlemen were on

12 the run, so to speak, running away from Srebrenica trying to get to Tuzla.

13 Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And so at the time they would have been characterised as

16 prisoners, were they not or in custody. Correct?

17 A. Whether they were held prisoners there, I don't know. I don't

18 know whether they surrendered and to whom. Anyway, they were intercepted

19 by Neskovic and Peric who brought them to our premises. But they wanted

20 to spare them from mistreatment by anyone, because Salihovic was

21 Neskovic's colleague, he was all of ours -- colleague whom we knew well,

22 and the other man was Peric's boss in Bratunac before the war, in the

23 Bratunac police station.

24 Q. And it was after some point in time when these gentlemen were

25 taken away, pursuant to Momir Nikolic's order. Correct?

Page 6552

1 A. I described to you the conversation they had, and then Nikolic

2 said they had to come with him, meaning those two men, Salihovic and

3 Hasan.

4 Q. All right. And from reading your statement, it's my understanding

5 that you have expressed a great deal of regret for what has happened, that

6 is, that those individuals were there and then they had to leave to go

7 with Momir Nikolic and who apparently are no longer alive or no one has

8 seen them. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now, was one of the individuals with Momir Nikolic, was he

11 be any chance Nenad Deronjic?

12 A. No, certainly not, because I know Nenad Deronjic myself. He

13 wasn't there on the premises at that time.

14 Q. Okay. All right. Now, in your previous statement that you gave,

15 and I'm reading from -- I'm looking at what has been marked for

16 identification as D87. You indicated when you gave your statement that

17 you think it was on the 10th or 11th of July. And I'm reading -- I'm

18 looking at page 29. It's lines -- it's around line 8 all the way to line

19 14. But that was what you told the Prosecution back on 2001, that you

20 think it was the 10th or 11th, correct, that Nenad Deronjic left for

21 Bratunac. Correct?

22 A. It was at that time that he used to come to the checkpoint, that

23 he worked at the checkpoint. I don't remember the other colleagues who

24 worked there at the time. And it's possible he was there on the 10th and

25 the 11th. But as soon as Srebrenica was taken, an order came that all

Page 6553

1 current employees of the Srebrenica police station who were dispersed

2 across Bratunac, Skelani, and other places should go back to Srebrenica,

3 because a Srebrenica police station was to be established to establish

4 Serb control to control crime. And Deronjic was one of the current

5 employees of the Srebrenica police station, so I suppose he went back,

6 too. I don't remember seeing him around the time of these events

7 involving Sinanovic and Salihovic. But earlier on, he did go to the

8 checkpoint and he worked there.

9 Q. All right. So if that is your understanding and if your memory

10 serves you right and if you are correct, then what Momir Nikolic stated

11 here in court under oath on the 22nd of September, 2003, that on the 13th

12 when he came to pick up those two individuals, Nenad Deronjic was there,

13 that would have been false. Correct?

14 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MS. ISSA: I object to that. Clearly he can't ask a witness to

17 comment on the veracity of another witness. That's our objection.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: It would have been incorrect. I will rephrase.

19 I'll rephrase. I think it's a proper objection. I'll rephrase,

20 Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.


23 Q. If Momir Nikolic testified under oath here on 22nd September 2003,

24 and I'm reading from the official transcript, page 1.724, line 14 for the

25 record. If Momir Nikolic had stated that when he got there, there was

Page 6554

1 Nenad Deronjic, a policeman, that would be incorrect, would it not?

2 A. I can only say that on that say, on the 13th at the time when

3 those two men were inside, Nenad Deronjic wasn't there. There was

4 Momir Nikolic and there was this other man, I don't know if he was a

5 military policeman, I think he was. But Deronjic certainly wasn't there.

6 There was myself, Sretan Brajkovic, Ljubisa Milic, Dusko Neskovic,

7 Mirko Peric. That's the people who were on the premises at the time. As

8 for Deronjic, I can't say he was there. I didn't see him.

9 Q. Okay. And as you've indicated repeatedly, it's your understanding

10 that he was gone by then because the order had been issued to re-establish

11 the police station in Srebrenica?

12 A. Yes. I think he had gone. He should have gone, because everybody

13 else had, because that station was supposed to get underway by the 12th.

14 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 Mr. Stojanovic, your cross-examination, please.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. If we

19 could go into private session for just a couple of minutes, because I want

20 to add a correction to the transcript, to the record.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6555

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in open session, you may proceed.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. If I may ask the

24 usher to help us show the witness an exhibit marked for identification, a

25 Prosecution Exhibit 694, the hand-drawn sketch of Konjevic Polje. And

Page 6556

1 after that, I could proceed with my questions.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] If I may ask you to assist us. Can we note that

4 the command of the engineering unit, if we look towards the road towards

5 Kravica or rather Bratunac, is located there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would it be fair to say that in relation to this junction you were

8 on the crossroads itself?

9 A. I don't understand the question.

10 Q. Where were you on -- during those days on the 11th, 12th, and

11 13th, in which of these structures?

12 A. This one, on the left-hand side, where it says "command," that

13 house.

14 Q. Thank you. Would it be fair to say that from the room you were

15 in, you were able to observe the command of the engineering unit?

16 A. For the most part, yes, it was visible.

17 Q. When as you were examined by Mr. Karnavas, there was reference to

18 an engineering company. Our information that it was a different kind of

19 unit, not a company. Do you know whether it was a battalion, a company,

20 or something else, or maybe you don't know?

21 A. I don't know. I don't know what the strength of that unit was.

22 Q. Do you know in the military sense to whom that unit was

23 subordinated?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Was that unit part of the corps or part of one of the brigades?

Page 6557

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. You mentioned during examination-in-chief that you knew that the

3 unit was commanded by a man named Mico Avramovic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you used to see that man during those days in the engineering

6 unit?

7 A. I didn't know him at all. I saw him there for the first time, but

8 I didn't know him personally. Maybe I saw him a couple of times. But at

9 the time of those events, I didn't see him there. So I saw him before the

10 events I described, maybe the 8th, the 7th, or the 9th -- I mean the

11 events around the checkpoint.

12 Q. Thank you. Because that tallies with the information we have,

13 that he was on leave at the time. We just wanted you to confirm. And I

14 would have just one more question. During those days did you see that

15 engineering unit use any of its equipment?

16 A. I talked to the investigators before about the equipment that was

17 stored behind the primary school. There was some lorries there. I'm not

18 sure. I never paid attention, although we often passed by the primary

19 school when we were going to have lunch. I think there was some vehicles

20 there for the construction of pontoon bridges or maybe some pre-fab

21 houses. I'm not sure.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Correction of the interpreter, the reference to

23 pontoon bridges is wrong.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can ask the usher to show

25 the witness another exhibit, P697.

Page 6558

1 Q. Let us just clarify at the outset. You have the view of this part

2 of Konjevic Polje. Am I right in saying that this picture was taken from

3 the direction of Bratunac or Kravica towards the junction in Konjevic

4 Polje?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Am I right to say that the church that we can see here on the

7 picture dominating the picture was not here in 1995?

8 A. Correct. It was built later.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This

10 concludes our cross-examination.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

12 Ms. Issa, any re-direct?

13 MS. ISSA: No. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Well, at this stage are there any documents to tender through this

16 witness. Ms. Issa?

17 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. We'd like to tender Exhibit Number

18 694 through 698 with number 694 and 698, if they could please be admitted

19 under seal, as they refer to the witness's name.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Karnavas?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: With respect to 694, Your Honour, I don't object in

24 principle; however, given that the gentleman has written in B/C/S, I think

25 we -- perhaps the Prosecution could provide an additional one perhaps

Page 6559

1 numbered 694.1, with a translation of the B/C/S of the various items that

2 have been identified. With respect to the other documents, we have no

3 objections, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, we believe that is a reasonable request.

5 Mr. Stojanovic, any objections?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. This Defence team has no

7 objections as to any of these exhibits.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 So documents tendered by the Prosecution are admitted into the

10 evidence with P694 and P698 under seal, and at the same time we request

11 the Prosecution to furnish the translation for the document P694.

12 MS. ISSA: Certainly, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 Well, Witness, thank you very much indeed for coming to The Hague

15 to give your testimony. When the usher pulls down the blinds, she will

16 show you out of this courtroom. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And I

18 should also like the thank the Prosecution and the Defence.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, there's one thing I would like to mention at

21 this stage --


23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Perhaps we can go into private session,

25 Your Honour.

Page 6560

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: I've learned --

3 JUDGE LIU: Wait a minute.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6561












12 Pages 6561 to 6570 redacted, private session














Page 6571

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE LIU: I see none -- yes.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to let you know, we're working on -- everyone

24 will be receiving statements from the next witness. And we'll be working

25 on the handwriting report, so we'll be getting that to everyone as soon as

Page 6572

1 possible.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

3 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: There's one housekeeping matter I am told by

5 Ms. Tomanovic. With respect to four intercepts that we had offered into

6 evidence, D73/1A, D74/1A, D75/1A, and D76/1A, I understand that your

7 decision would include these intercepts as well, the ones that we had

8 moved into evidence as well.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, if my recollection is correct, I believe that

10 we'll admit those evidence after we admitted the Prosecution's evidence

11 concerning with the intercepts.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Correct.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 Could I ask once again to the Prosecution, do you have any

15 objections to those four intercepts?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm trying to recollect what they were, but as I

17 recollect they were part of our collection. I have no objection. We'll

18 take a look, because as you know sometimes there's a typed version and a

19 handwritten version and some are a little more complete than others. So

20 given that, I don't think I have any problem at all.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Just for clarity, these were -- we had translated

23 certain portions, and that's what I'm referring to. So we got all these

24 intercepts from the Prosecution, though we had certain portions translated

25 that hadn't been translated by them. I don't believe Mr. McCloskey was in

Page 6573

1 the courtroom at the time. And I'm reading it's P249/B, P249/D, P255/F

2 and P255/D. These are ones we moved under our own number because we had

3 translated them and we have been working with the Registrar here.


5 MR. McCLOSKEY: No problem, Your Honour. We'll just check our

6 translation and make sure we get the best product to the Court. And I'm

7 sure that's not an issue.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 So these four intercept documents are admitted into the evidence.

10 It is so decided.

11 Well, I think that's all for this week. So we'll resume next

12 Monday afternoon in Courtroom I. The hearing is adjourned.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

14 at 12.10 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

15 the 26th day of January, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.