Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6574

1 Monday, 26 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Court Deputy, call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Well, before we hear the witness

9 this afternoon, there's some housekeeping matters that we would like to

10 deal with. Last Friday during the hearing, the OTP mentioned that they

11 are awaiting decisions on the authentication binder and did not mention

12 the other attached exhibits concerning with Stephanie Frease's testimony

13 in the Krstic case. We have some questions to ask the Prosecution. The

14 first one is that we looked into that materials, but we did not find any

15 documents attached to Tab 6. I wonder whether the Prosecution would like

16 to tender any documents under this tab, Tab 6?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, my recollection of Ms. Frease was

18 the authentication binder was the main thing we were asking. As for the

19 detail of precisely what we said was in Tab 6, and Ms. Stewart I can see

20 is helping me out, and I know Ms. Davis was principally helping working on

21 the exhibits related to the 92 bis witnesses. So I -- I don't have a

22 precise answer for you, but I will very soon, I think.

23 JUDGE LIU: Another question is that we want to know whether you

24 would like to tender other materials attached to Ms. Frease's Krstic

25 testimony.

Page 6575

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: The -- I know the theory of our 92 bis admissions

2 and submissions was that in order to make full sense of the testimony, we

3 wanted to attach the -- all the exhibits that the witness referred to, if

4 it had not come in through another witness that had already come in as

5 part of the 92 bis information. So that were -- those were our

6 intentions. And I would have -- I believe we have tried to make that

7 clear, but if we haven't, we will double check and find. There may be

8 some extraneous things we just didn't think you needed to see or would be

9 important to understand the testimony. But normally, if there's an

10 exhibit that the witness refers to, it would just help have the testimony

11 make sense, so that's why we would have offered exhibits like that.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

13 Now I turn to Mr. Stojanovic. I think on the 23rd July, 2003, you

14 requested that Ms. Frease would have to come for cross-examination, and I

15 have not found any reference to this in the 18th December, 2003,

16 transcript, which you claimed last Friday. Will you please clarify this

17 issue for us.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. On

19 Wednesday, 23rd of July, we reiterated what we had submitted in writing in

20 our motion regarding our objection to the admission of this testimony

21 under Rules 92 bis and 94. So in light of our standing objection as to

22 the credibility and quality of intercepts, and also bearing in mind the

23 testimony of Ms. Stephanie Frease in the Krstic case, obviously there was

24 need for our Defence to cross-examine her. And that was why we requested

25 that.

Page 6576

1 Now, what we wanted to achieve with this cross-examination of

2 Ms. Stephanie Frease, first of all judging from the analysis that she had

3 completed, we wanted to elicit the answers which indicate noncredibility

4 of these intercepts. In particular, if we know that there is no single

5 audio recording of the intercepts in which the name of Dragan Jokic would

6 have been mentioned. So that was the basic reason why we requested the

7 appearance of Ms. Stephanie Frease before this Tribunal, to state what her

8 opinion is of these particular intercepts.

9 Second, her testimony in the Krstic trial was focussed on the

10 intercepts concerning the position of the Drina Corps and their quality,

11 including, of course, the commander of the Drina Corps. In the current

12 case, we have a different kind of intercepts concerning the 14th of July

13 and a high-level intensity of the intercepts and a confusion that reigned

14 in the air at the time, which we think is an important issue regarding the

15 intercepts, and that is why we requested her testimony. And that is the

16 reason why we wanted to have your decision on the issue, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, Mr. Stojanovic. But I have to

18 remind you that the Bench has already ruled upon the intercept matters by

19 its intercept decision of the 18th December, 2003. I believe that the

20 principles laid down in those intercepts are also applicable for any new

21 intercepts in the so-called authentication binders.

22 Well, Mr. McCloskey, I -- actually, I'm waiting for your

23 clarification on this matter. If we got any clear answer on that issue,

24 we believe we were in the position to make the decisions, no matter if it

25 is oral or in written form. I hope you could inform us as soon as

Page 6577

1 possible about your position on this matter.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I will double check on the

3 exhibits that she had talked about in Krstic and the exhibits we have

4 offered and make sure they are what we intended.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I understand that before the

6 closure of your case, it's your intention to have a clean slate.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And I know Ms. Davis is working on that as

8 well as other folks. As -- and I -- she will have one more witness, and

9 then she has to unfortunately go back to the law firm that so nicely

10 loaned her to us for a long while. But I know we will have that --

11 definitely an answer for you very soon.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

13 Well, who will deal with the next witness?

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I will, Your Honour, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So I understand there's some protective

16 measures?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. This witness is currently in the ICTY

18 witness protection programme, and the protection officer has asked me

19 to -- for security purposes to have face distortion and pseudonym.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the witness is aware of that and agrees.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 I guess there's no objections from the Defence.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I don't think it's necessary, but I'm hardly

25 in the position to object, Your Honour. And I think as the evidence comes

Page 6578

1 out of this witness, I think it will be clear why this gentleman should

2 not be given any protective measures and be testifying open, in public, so

3 the public knows who he is and what he has to say. But I understand the

4 measures, and I accept that.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation. Of course,

6 Mr. Karnavas, the Bench has the power to lift the protective measures at a

7 later stage, if the situation requires.

8 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have the same

10 position as the Defence of Mr. Blagojevic. In principle, at this point, I

11 don't know to what effect this is useful, but bearing in mind the contents

12 of his testimony, I think you will be in a position to judge as to the

13 necessity of these protective measures.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I believe that the request for

15 the protective measures is granted.

16 Could we have the witness, please.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

19 Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

25 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 6579

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Examined by Mr. McCloskey:

3 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Could you take a look at a piece of

4 paper which has been marked Prosecution 671, and could you tell us if

5 that's your name.

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. And can you give us the month and year of your birth.

8 (redacted)

9 Q. And can you tell us briefly what schooling you went to.

10 A. I went to the secondary mechanical engineering school, and then I

11 started energetics and attended (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. And did you do any regular JNA service?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. And in what years?

16 A. In 1977 and 1978.

17 Q. And after your service in the JNA, did you retain a connection

18 with the JNA in a reserve status?

19 A. Yes, I did. I was part of the reserve force assigned to the iron

20 works factory (redacted)

21 Q. And what was your particular rank when you left your JNA active

22 service?

23 A. When I left my active service, I had a rank of (redacted).

24 Q. And were you promoted through the reserve ranks --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the rank of (redacted).

Page 6580

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was.


3 Q. By 1992, the spring of 1992, what was your reserve rank in the

4 JNA?

5 A. My rank was that of a reserve (redacted).

6 Q. All right. And with the outbreak of the war in Bosnia, did you

7 become a member of the VRS?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. And what unit in the VRS did you first become a member of?

10 A. I first became a member of the (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 Q. All right. And by July 1995, were you in the security branch of

13 (redacted)

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 Q. And in the time period of the fall of Srebrenica, were you

16 involved in the murder operation to kill thousands of Muslim men?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Okay. Now, I want to skip ahead in time and go to some of the

19 post-war facts in this case. And can you tell me, (redacted) did you

20 apply in Belgrade to immigrate to the United States?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And did you make a false statement on your immigration form there?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. And what was that false statement?

25 A. I did not make a statement regarding my participation in the army

Page 6581

1 of Republika Srpska.

2 Q. All right. And pursuant to that application to enter the U.S.,

3 did you -- were you able -- and your family able to immigrate to the U.S.?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And about what month did you arrive in the U.S.?

6 A. In July.

7 Q. (redacted)

8 A. (redacted)

9 Q. Can you tell me what the name of that lawyer is?

10 (redacted)

11 Q. And have you had a chance to consult with him prior to testifying

12 today?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you understand by testifying today that you did have a right

15 to have a lawyer present?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did you speak with your lawyer about his potential presence

18 today?

19 A. I talked to him, and I told him that his presence was not

20 necessary.

21 Q. All right. And do you understand that what you say today can be

22 used against you later on?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. That if you don't -- that you do have a right not to say anything

25 at all. Do you understand that?

Page 6582

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Okay. Getting back to your entry into the United States,(redacted)

3 (redacted), did you fill out an application for permanent residence?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't mean to interrupt the flow. I would like

6 the gentleman to be aware of the maximum penalty at this time as a result

7 of his involvement. I know that he understands that he may be charged and

8 I think it may be necessary for him to understand the penalty that he is

9 facing, because of his right to have a lawyer.

10 JUDGE LIU: What do you mean by the maximum penalties?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, as I understand the gentleman

12 did participate directly, as we will hear, in the killings in -- I believe

13 it was in -- perhaps not in Branjevo Farm directly, but in one of the

14 other locations. So I would imagine that the maximum penalty he is facing

15 is life imprisonment. And I think that he does need to be aware of that,

16 that that's what he's subject to in the event he goes forward with

17 testifying and that he's waiving his rights to have his lawyer present

18 knowingly and voluntarily.

19 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I know (redacted) is a fine lawyer and I'm

21 sure has discussed these matters with him. I can clarify that without any

22 problem.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.


25 (redacted)

Page 6583

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. And you understand that if indicted and convicted for crimes

5 involving the murder of Muslim men after the fall of Srebrenica, you could

6 face a penalty up to life imprisonment?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And have you been aware of that in your dealings with the

9 Prosecution since you've had your lawyer?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Then getting back to the U.S. And in April --

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey. I have to remind you that this

13 witness under the protective measures.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. I don't think this is a

15 problem. There's many folks in the U.S. from the --

16 JUDGE LIU: I don't mean that. You may continue, maybe somebody

17 in your team will look into the transcript.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. I understand and I understand

19 the problem. And I will fix it.

20 Q. All right. Back to the U.S., in April did you apply to register

21 as a permanent resident in the U.S.?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In those applications, were you asked the same question about your

24 military service while living in Bosnia or the former Yugoslavia?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6584

1 Q. And as you had in Belgrade, did you make a false statement by

2 failing to mention your VRS deployment during the war?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. In August of 2002, were you interviewed by the OTP at the

5 town where you were living in the United States regarding the Srebrenica

6 events?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And was an agent from the FBI present during some of those

9 contacts and interviews?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In that August 2002 interview with the OTP, did you acknowledge

12 that you were -- you took part at the murder operation at Orahovac on July

13 14th, 1995?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did the FBI interview regarding any potential false statements

16 on immigration documents to the United States at that same time period?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And during that interview with the FBI, did you admit to them that

19 you had failed to mention your service in the VRS, thereby making --

20 admitting making a false statement to the U.S. Immigration authorities?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you also testify in a deposition at the United States

23 attorney's office in the town where you were living?

24 A. Excuse me. Could you repeat your question. I didn't understand.

25 Q. Yes. Did you go to the United States attorney's office in August

Page 6585

1 of 2002 and answer questions from me in a deposition?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in that deposition you were under oath. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did you acknowledge your responsibility in Orahovac during

6 that deposition -- or acknowledge your involvement in, excuse me, in

7 Orahovac in that deposition?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And at about that time did you agree to cooperate with the

10 Office of the Prosecutor and promise to testify and tell the truth in any

11 future proceedings that we would ask you to?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did the Office of the Prosecutor promise to protect you and

14 your family and have you apply to the witness protection programme, if it

15 was -- became necessary, for example, if you were deported from the

16 United States?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did the -- did myself or anyone from the Office of the Prosecutor

19 make any promises to you regarding whether or not you would be charged by

20 anyone, the United States or the Office of the Prosecutor or anyone else?

21 A. No.

22 Q. As you sit here today, has anyone made any promises to you about

23 whether or not you will be prosecuted?

24 A. No.

25 Q. On 1 April 2003, were you not indicted on four counts of false

Page 6586

1 statements to immigration authorities by the United States government?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you were arrested and incarcerated in -- at that time as well,

4 weren't you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And on July 2nd, 2003, did you plead guilty to two counts of

7 providing a false statement on the immigration applications?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did one of those counts involve the false statement in

10 Belgrade and the other involve the false statement in the U.S. that we've

11 spoken of earlier?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And on 24 October 2003, were you and your family deported from the

14 United States back to Bosnia?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And how much time did you serve in gaol in the United States?

17 A. Less than seven months.

18 Q. And precisely how much, as you recall?

19 A. From the 2nd of April, 2003, until the 23rd of October, 2003.

20 Q. And upon entering Bosnia, were you and your family -- did you take

21 the protection of the ICTY?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Recently, on 3 December, did you provide information to

24 Alistair Graham and myself, where you denied knowing Mr. Beara or knowing

25 anything about Mr. Beara and the events of July 1995?

Page 6587

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you in addition say that you did not know anything about

3 what triage meant, or something to that effect?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At the end of that statement, did the OTP insist that you be

6 provided with a lawyer by the Registry of this institution?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did the OTP explain to you that they did not believe you were

9 telling the truth about Mr. Beara and triage?

10 A. Yes.

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. And have you spoken to the Office of the Prosecutor more recently

15 on 21 January 2004 and provided another statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did you admit in that statement that some of the information

18 you had provided earlier was not true?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us now in particular what information you provided

21 that was not true.

22 A. Regarding the 21st, is that correct? I'm sorry.

23 Q. Yes. Regarding the December 3rd statement to Mr. Graham and

24 myself regarding Beara, triage, and other things.

25 A. On the 2nd of December, I said that I did not know Beara and I did

Page 6588

1 not know anything about the triage and that I did not have any information

2 as to whether Beara was present.

3 Q. Were those statements true or false?

4 A. They were false.

5 Q. All right. And as we go over the events, I'll have you explain

6 those in more detail. Did you recently, on 21 January, provide another --

7 or acknowledge you had made another false statement regarding your time at

8 Orahovac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And can you briefly tell us what the false statement is and what

11 the reality is in fact.

12 A. At that meeting, I said that I had not been at that time part of

13 the operation to kill and execute Muslims in Srebrenica; whereas, in the

14 actual fact, I had spent the entire evening until the morning hours when I

15 had left. After the operation of the execution was completed, I spent the

16 entire time in the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade.

17 Q. Had you earlier in your deposition in your first statement told

18 the Office of the Prosecutor that you were involved in securing prisoners

19 at Orahovac and aware of the executions, but you had left right after the

20 executions had started?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And now you're telling us that you stayed throughout the period of

23 the executions all night and into the next day. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back to the time when you came into the

Page 6589

1 Zvornik Brigade. You said you were assigned to one of the battalions.

2 Can you briefly describe to us your advancement in the Zvornik Brigade

3 from the time you first came in, until July 1995.

4 A. The first unit I belonged to in the VRS was the 3rd Battalion of

5 the Zvornik Brigade, located in Kiseljak. I was in an infantry company,

6 together with Srecko Maksimovic [as interpreted]. It was up until the end

7 of 1992.

8 Q. Sorry. Could you say who were -- who the battalion person was you

9 were with was again. I'm not sure the name was correct or they may not

10 have heard it correctly.

11 A. Srecko Acimovic.

12 Q. So it's Acimovic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And what was Srecko Acimovic to you?

15 A. We worked together in the company and in the battalion.

16 Q. Okay. And is Acimovic spelled with an "A"; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Keep going. Tell us about your career, up till July 1995.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted). And then I learned that people who were interested in it could

22 attend training in Pancevo, people in the brigade who were interested in

23 it. And upon completion of that training, they could regulate their

24 status in the units of the VRS. So I applied for that post; it was

25 approved. And I was told that I would then be transferred to the

Page 6590

1 headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade.

2 And in the Zvornik Brigade, I was in the security organ until my

3 status was resolved and until I was to be sent to undergo training. And

4 since this did not happen, I received my appointment in the Zvornik

5 Brigade headquarters as the security officer of the Zvornik Brigade. My

6 activities in that time consisted of tasks involving tours of the defence

7 lines, where units were, monitoring the work of the observation posts that

8 were manned by the personnel from the unit, dispatching daily reports,

9 being on duty, and all the usual tasks as needed.

10 Q. Who was your immediate superior in the security branch of the

11 Zvornik Brigade?

12 A. In the security organ, the chief was Dragan Nikolic. He was the

13 chief of the security.

14 Q. And in July of 1995, what was -- what was Dragan Nikolic's rank?

15 A. He had the rank of a lieutenant.

16 Q. And in July of 1995, what was your rank?

17 A. In 1995, I was a reserve captain.

18 Q. Can you explain how a lieutenant can be a superior to a captain in

19 that particular context.

20 A. Drago Nikolic was an officer of the JNA, and I was -- I am a

21 reserve officer. And that is the difference in the appointment that one

22 can receive and in the treatment of the person.

23 Q. Now, as Drago Nikolic as your superior, were you -- did you have

24 to follow his orders, or as a captain, could you give him orders?

25 A. I had to follow his orders.

Page 6591

1 Q. All right. And who, if you know, did Drago Nikolic report to?

2 Who was his most immediate superior?

3 A. His immediate superior was the chief of the security in the Drina

4 Corps command, and that would be Popovic.

5 Q. And in the command of the Zvornik Brigade, did Mr. Nikolic have a

6 superior?

7 A. Yes. That was the commander of the Zvornik Brigade, that was

8 Vinko Pandurevic.

9 Q. Can you briefly describe the relationship, the official

10 relationship, between Vinko Pandurevic and Drago Nikolic. Were there any

11 problems?

12 A. Yes. There would be problems from time to time.

13 Q. And could you give us an example of some of those problems or one

14 of those problems.

15 A. Well, in terms of reports and the use of vehicles.

16 Q. What do you mean?

17 A. The manner in which reports were sent and the use of vehicles.

18 Drago wanted the vehicles to be used and controlled only by the security

19 organ.

20 Q. All right. Now, up until the period of July 1995, were you aware

21 of the command of the Zvornik Brigade being involved in the murder of any

22 prisoners within the custody of the Zvornik Brigade?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And how do you know the command was aware of those -- murder of

25 prisoners, and I'm talking about prior to the fall of Srebrenica?

Page 6592

1 A. It was because the superiors themselves said that they should --

2 that these people should be taken away and executed.

3 Q. How do you know the superiors themselves said that?

4 A. Because when the security chief came from the briefing, he gave

5 the order for this task to be done.

6 Q. And are you talking about Drago Nikolic coming from the meetings?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what meetings are you referring to?

9 A. That was the regular morning meeting or briefing.

10 Q. And who was at that regular morning briefing, to your knowledge?

11 A. The commander, the chiefs of the staffs and of various sections.

12 Q. Were you ever at one of those meetings when such an order was

13 given?

14 A. No, not when that order was given.

15 Q. And who --

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may object at this point.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: First of all, I don't know what the relevancy is

19 with all of this with respect to what happened prior to the fall of

20 Srebrenica. The indictments don't cover any of that period. Second of

21 all, unless I'm mistaken, I don't have any disclosure material with

22 respect to this. Granted it's talking about Zvornik. But I'm somewhat

23 concerned that perhaps the Prosecutor is trying to suggest that the

24 commands at all of the brigades were engaged in murder operations prior to

25 Srebrenica, and they're using this gentleman here as a vehicle for

Page 6593

1 establishing that. I don't know. I just don't know what disclosure

2 material they're relying on, and I don't know what the relevancy is with

3 respect to the charges of these two individuals that are standing before

4 this particular Trial Bench, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, would you please make some

6 clarification of this point.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. This is a point that the

8 witness has told us from the very beginning and is part of the discovery

9 material. I'm -- It's my intention in this direct to try to bring out

10 most of the important points that this witness has said that shows his

11 knowledge, his potential involvement, the knowledge and potential

12 involvement of others, especially those that have testified in this case.

13 Because I do not want to be left -- leave anyone with the impression that

14 we are trying to not provide the information that may affect this witness,

15 or Mr. Obrenovic, or anyone else. And this is a statement that he has

16 told us from early on, has been part of the record early on, and it is

17 something that I will deal with very quickly and go on.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed, but you have to remember that

19 those periods were not covered by the indictment, unless you want to

20 establish a kind of consistency practice.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I really don't intend anything that formal,

22 Mr. President. And I -- but it was just one of the facts he's always

23 testified to, and I just thought we should bring it up. I won't,

24 obviously, cover everything that he's mentioned because it's too

25 voluminous and not particularly on point.

Page 6594

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.


3 Q. All right. Well, let's get to July 1995, and -- in fact, let's go

4 right to the 13th of July, 1995. Can you tell us what particular job you

5 recall that day and what you did.

6 A. On the 13th of July, 1995, in the afternoon, the duty officer of

7 the Zvornik Brigade tasked me with escorting a convoy of humanitarian aid

8 from the Russian Battalion to Bratunac, and to hand them over to the

9 security organ in Bratunac.

10 Q. And did you go with that convoy to Bratunac?

11 A. Yes, after I received the orders, together with the driver of the

12 security organ, Milorad Bircakovic. I was in a vehicle with him and we

13 drove on the old macadam road to Bratunac. And in front of the brigade

14 command, which was indicated to me by Bircakovic, because that was the

15 first time I was there, I didn't where it was, we checked with Momir

16 Nikolic where the security organ of the Bratunac Brigade was. After we

17 were told that he was not there and that his whereabouts were unknown to

18 the people we talked to, the leader of the convoy demanded that I continue

19 to escort the convoy down to Potocari.

20 Q. What kind of vehicle were you in with the driver?

21 A. I was with the driver in an Opel Rekord, it's called Rekord and it

22 was an estate wagon which was dark green in colour.

23 Q. And did you go to Potocari that day?

24 A. Yes. Pursuant to the request of the convoy leader for us to

25 escort him to Potocari, we continued on. We arrived in Potocari. They

Page 6595

1 parked their vehicles, and the convoy leader told me to wait there until

2 he sorted things out regarding the convoy and until he did all the things

3 that he had to do in this respect.

4 Q. What was in his convoy?

5 A. I don't know what exactly, but I was told it was humanitarian aid.

6 Q. Was this a United States or an UNPROFOR convoy?

7 A. It was a UN convoy of the Russian Battalion.

8 Q. All right. Now, where -- about what time did you get to the

9 Potocari area?

10 A. I can't tell exactly. Four or five hours.

11 Q. Can you give us a rough idea what time of day this is, morning,

12 afternoon, evening?

13 A. It was at dusk, in the early evening, at around 4.00 or 5.00.

14 Q. All right. And can you describe what hour in Potocari you were,

15 what kind of buildings, any bases around, anything that -- any landmarks

16 you can give us.

17 A. I was on some kind of a plateau in Potocari in front of the place

18 where the peacekeeping battalion, it was the Dutch Battalion, was located.

19 I saw that there were many women, children, men there, men in uniforms.

20 And at one point, I saw Momir Nikolic. I knew him, I recognised him,

21 because he had come to see Drago Nikolic in the Zvornik Brigade command

22 one or two times. I spent some time with him, very briefly. I just said

23 hello, and I asked him, since that was my first time there, who these

24 people were, what was happening there. He told me that they were Muslims

25 from Srebrenica there, members of the Republika Srpska Army. And he also

Page 6596

1 told me -- I saw the other part of the civilian population, and they told

2 me that they were waiting to be transported to leave to the territory of

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina through Tuzla.

4 I also saw many trucks on that plateau. I asked him how come that

5 there were so many trucks, and he told me that this was organised and that

6 they came from the whole of the Republika Srpska and that they were all

7 gathered here to be used for the transportation purposes.

8 Q. All right. Could you tell -- was there anybody with Momir Nikolic

9 when you were there in Potocari?

10 A. At that time when we spoke, nobody else was there. Later on,

11 because I had my duties related to the convoy, I had to go and check the

12 progress of the unloading of the convoy and the takeover of the goods.

13 But I saw at one point that he was present there and that he was talking

14 to somebody, although I don't know who he was talking to.

15 Q. So what -- after talking with Momir Nikolic, what did you do?

16 A. After talking with him, I went to meet with the convoy leader,

17 because I wanted him to give me further information as to what we were to

18 do. Since I had done everything I had to do, I escorted the convoy to the

19 place that they requested, from Zvornik to Potocari. Since he was unable

20 to sort out his stay there, I don't know who he had been talking to, and

21 to sort out everything about the unloading and takeover of the

22 humanitarian aid he had brought there, he asked me to escort him. He said

23 that we were to return to Bratunac.

24 Immediately after receiving this request, I and the driver

25 returned immediately to Bratunac. When we came to a building, I was told

Page 6597

1 that this was the town hall in Bratunac. It was in the evening. A person

2 was present there. They demanded that a representative of the

3 municipality come. They wanted to talk to that person and to organise the

4 delivery of the humanitarian aid they had brought with them. I don't know

5 how long it took for that person to arrive. I also don't know who that

6 person was. But at any rate, we entered this building. We went into an

7 office, sat down with them, dinner was ordered, because we had already

8 spent a long time on this trip. They continued discussing the

9 organisation and the unloading and the takeover of the humanitarian aid.

10 They also discussed the possibility of doing all that as quickly as

11 possible.

12 Q. So how long did you actually stay in Bratunac dealing with this --

13 these convoy issues?

14 A. I remained in Bratunac for an hour, an hour and a half, two hours.

15 Later on I asked -- I told the convoy leader that I could not wait

16 anymore, and asked for his permission to leave to report to the Zvornik

17 Brigade command, because I could not see when this would end. He approved

18 this, and I went on with my driver, Bircakovic, along the same road we

19 took on our way from Zvornik there.

20 Q. Can you describe where the route you said this macadam road took.

21 A. This macadam road went along Drinjaca. That was my first time

22 there because I'm not from that region, and it was quite strange to me and

23 the road itself was in really bad condition.

24 Q. You say along the Drinjaca River or is that what you said? I'm

25 not clear on the translation.

Page 6598

1 A. It was moving across the Drinjaca. There is a larger area that is

2 referred to as "Drinjaca." I'm not exactly sure where the river goes.

3 Q. Were you aware of the main road between Bratunac, Konjevic Polje,

4 and Zvornik?

5 A. I was aware of one other road, but at the time we headed out when

6 we escorted the convoy, the leader requested that we should take that

7 particular road. I don't know why. On the way back, I said, Bircakovic,

8 since it is getting dark, I don't want to experiment with new roads, could

9 you please take me along the same road we had taken so that I could get to

10 the Zvornik Brigade headquarters as soon as possible and to report on the

11 assignment that I had completed.

12 Q. And did you get back to the Zvornik Brigade headquarters?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. And about what time?

15 A. Sometime in the evening hours, at about 10.00 or 11.00 in the

16 evening.

17 Q. And what happened when you got back to the Zvornik Brigade

18 headquarters? I guess this is 10.00 or 11.00 in the evening, the night of

19 13 July.

20 A. Yes, it was. I went in. I got into the compound of the Zvornik

21 Brigade headquarters. Drago Nikolic was in front of the reception desk,

22 the security chief of the Zvornik Brigade.

23 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the last sentence the witness

24 said.


Page 6599

1 Q. What was said, if anything, when you came in and you saw

2 Drago Nikolic there?

3 A. Drago said, Where have you been all this time? I needed the

4 vehicle. Get ready, together with Jasikovac. And then he selected a

5 couple of members of the military police. He said that the vehicle would

6 be secured for us to go to Orahovac. A bus with Muslims from Srebrenica

7 in coming, and you have to organise the accommodation for those people in

8 the elementary school building in Orahovac.

9 Q. And who is Jasikovac?

10 A. Jasikovac was the commander of the military police company in the

11 Zvornik Brigade.

12 Q. And did you see anybody, any other officers around the area, while

13 you were at the Zvornik Brigade command that evening?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And after receiving this order from Drago Nikolic, what did you

16 do?

17 A. Together with Jasikovac, the military police company commander and

18 five or six other military police, in a -- we went to Orahovac in a

19 military police van.

20 Q. And about what time did you get to the school at Orahovac?

21 A. Well, let me see. It was in the evening, between 11.00 and

22 midnight.

23 Q. And did Drago Nikolic go with you to Orahovac?

24 A. No, he didn't. However, he came later.

25 Q. Well, when he gave you that order to go to Orahovac, what was your

Page 6600

1 understanding as to what your job was in relation to this Orahovac and the

2 Muslim prisoners arriving?

3 A. My understanding was that my task would be to organise

4 accommodation for the Muslims from Srebrenica, who were taken to the hall

5 of the elementary school in Orahovac.

6 Q. That evening, did you have an opinion on what you thought was

7 going to happen to those Muslims, prisoners at Orahovac?

8 A. Well, I had my assumptions. After all, it was war time and I

9 thought they would be first accommodated in the school and then that they

10 would be executed.

11 Q. Why would you have thought they would be executed?

12 A. If they were not going to be executed, then they wouldn't keep

13 them there. They would have then transported them to the requested

14 destinations, that is, to the areas in the direction of Tuzla, to the exit

15 points.

16 Q. And when Mr. Graham and myself first saw you in the United States,

17 did you tell us the same thing about your opinion that you've just stated

18 now?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. What happened when you got to the school at Orahovac with

21 these MPs?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I'd like to correct the record. That's not exactly

25 what the gentleman said. It misstates his prior testimony. If

Page 6601

1 Mr. McCloskey wishes to vouch for his previous testimony, which is

2 improper in my opinion at this stage, at least he should show him what he

3 has stated. Because my recollection is that he stated that he thought

4 that they were going to be executed once he saw that some of their

5 belongings were taken away, and that gave him the impression. Because

6 they had to drop off their belongings before they went in. So it's

7 slightly different.

8 And the only reason I'm making the point is I don't think we can

9 say, Well, since he said it back then and he's saying now, that it must be

10 correct. If he's testifying from his independent memory I don't have a

11 problem with that. If Mr. McCloskey wishes to refresh the memory, that's

12 fine. But to vouch, I think, is improper. To say he said it back then,

13 he's saying it now, therefore it must be true. I can only suspect this is

14 being done because the gentleman has given variations of his testimony and

15 has given false information prior to the arrangement that he's currently

16 made.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I believe this issue is a very

18 good point during your cross-examination. Here I don't think the

19 Prosecution would like to go deeper into this matter.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I agree with you, Your Honour, but I would prefer

21 that the Prosecutor not say, Did you say -- tell us that back then?

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, it does not naturally mean that it must be true.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: I agree, Your Honour. But if he's going to say

24 what he said back then, at least give him -- he can say the whole thing

25 what he said back then, which was in addition to the fact that they

Page 6602

1 were -- some of their belongings were being taken away. It's a minor

2 point and I know that Mr. McCloskey doesn't mean anything by just -- he's

3 probably trying to shortcut the process. But I would prefer that we just

4 get his independent memory here, as opposed to saying, Well, did you tell

5 us that back then, unless he's going to be impeaching him. Then I don't

6 have a problem.

7 JUDGE LIU: Let's leave it for your cross-examination.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: It's a very good subject.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE LIU: And I think it's time for a break.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think you're correct, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, let's have our break. We'll resume at 4.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Witness, just going back to when Drago Nikolic told you about the

21 Muslims coming and you to go to Orahovac, did he give you any idea how

22 many Muslims were -- would be coming to Orahovac?

23 A. No.

24 Q. At that time did you -- had you received any information from any

25 sources about Muslim prisoners anywhere in Zvornik or the Bratunac areas?

Page 6603

1 A. No.

2 Q. When you -- when Drago Nikolic was giving you this information at

3 the brigade headquarters, did you see any officers around before you left

4 for Orahovac?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. And you said you went with some MPs in a van. What

7 happened when you got to Orahovac?

8 A. We got to Orahovac. We went to the football pitch just outside

9 the elementary school in Orahovac. Shortly after that, buses started

10 arriving and in the meantime Jasikovac, the military police commander,

11 deployed military police members who had arrived to the entrance into the

12 gym. And the buses carrying Muslims from Srebrenica came closer, close to

13 the entrance, and then the doors would be open. Jasikovac came back.

14 They -- he told them to get inside the gym as quickly as possible, to take

15 off their coats, and get inside the gym of the elementary school in

16 Orahovac.

17 Q. And were you the superior of Jasikovac?

18 A. Well, I was the security officer, and Drago was superior to

19 Jasikovac.

20 Q. Well, you were a captain at the time. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So who was the senior officer in charge at Orahovac that night?

23 A. That night Drago Nikolic came to the gym after the Muslims had

24 been put up in the school gym. He said that there were more buses coming.

25 Those people would be put up in the elementary school in Petkovci,

Page 6604

1 Orahovac, and Pilica. He didn't stay there very long. And together with

2 the driver, Milorad Bircakovic, he left. He didn't say where he was

3 going.

4 Q. Okay. And when Drago wasn't at the school, who was in charge at

5 the school, what VRS soldier?

6 A. Me and Jasikovac, the MP commander.

7 Q. We've heard a lot about the unity of command in this job. Was

8 there one person that was in overall command or did you share command?

9 A. Jasikovac worked with and was superior to the military police.

10 And I was involved in organisation.

11 Q. What was your military authority in relation to Jasikovac? Could

12 you give him orders?

13 A. No, I actually couldn't. Drago Nikolic could.

14 Q. So what was -- what were you doing there that night?

15 A. My duty was to organise and secure accommodation for Srebrenica

16 Muslims.

17 Q. And when did you form the opinion that these Muslims were going to

18 be killed, in relation to the events you've just -- you've been

19 describing?

20 A. I drew this conclusion on the 14th, after the arrival of

21 Drago Nikolic in Orahovac.

22 Q. And what was it that caused you to draw that conclusion?

23 A. With the arrival of Drago Nikolic in Orahovac sometime in the

24 evening of the 14th, I learned from him that those people, those

25 Srebrenica Muslims, were going to be executed.

Page 6605

1 Q. What did he say?

2 A. After he arrived, I first asked him where he had been so far,

3 because we were having problems there. And he said that Beara had come in

4 the meantime, that he had things to do, that he did not have time to come

5 earlier. He wanted to know where Jasikovac was so that we could start

6 organising things. He also said we needed to find volunteers for the

7 actual execution of these Muslims from Srebrenica. The force engineers

8 received their assignment. And he said, We should proceed immediately

9 with the preparations and the actual execution.

10 Q. Okay. About what time of day did Nikolic tell you about these --

11 the actual executions?

12 A. This was late in the afternoon, maybe in the evening.

13 Q. On the 14th?

14 A. Yes, on the 14th of July.

15 Q. Okay. Well, I want -- haven't gotten quite there yet, I want to

16 take us back to the late night hours of the 13th, the early morning hours

17 of the 14th when you actually go to the school at Orahovac and the Muslims

18 arrive. Can you tell us about what time the Muslims first started

19 arriving.

20 A. At about 12.00 hours that night, in the evening of the 13th.

21 Q. Around midnight of the 13th?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And did you have an opinion when the Muslims arrived at

24 Orahovac what was going to happen to them before Drago actually told you

25 this on the day of the 14th?

Page 6606

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I would object to the form of the

2 question. He can ask if he knew what would happen, what was going to

3 happen, which goes to knowledge, versus asking for speculative opinions.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think the word is misused. Do you have an

5 opinion?

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour --

7 JUDGE LIU: Are you asking an opinion of this witness?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely. What he thought was going to happen

9 to the Muslims that night, because it's unfortunately been confused. I'm

10 asking him what he thought. I think it's the same --

11 JUDGE LIU: I think that's correct.


13 Q. You've testified earlier about what you thought was going to

14 happen to the Muslims. When did you first think that they were going to

15 be executed?

16 A. Immediately after going to Orahovac and upon receiving the

17 assignment to put up those Muslims in Orahovac.

18 Q. Like you -- that's basically what you testified earlier to?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. When did you know for a fact they were going to be

21 executed?

22 A. In the evening of the 14th of July, when Drago Nikolic, the chief

23 security officer of the Zvornik Brigade, arrived.

24 Q. Okay. Now, after the Muslims start arriving around midnight, as

25 you've said, did Drago Nikolic come back to Orahovac any time that early

Page 6607

1 morning hours of the 14th?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So can you tell us what happened from about 12.00 midnight until,

4 you know, until dawn on the -- during the 14th? What was going on at the

5 school?

6 A. Mostly members of the military police of the Zvornik Brigade, they

7 were involved in the security. I was on a clearing outside at the school

8 gym where the Srebrenica Muslims were accommodated. At the time, there

9 were no major problems. No one came -- I mean, none of the officers,

10 after the visit of Drago Nikolic.

11 Q. Okay. Well, I'm still about -- I haven't gotten beyond the

12 morning of the 14th, about 8.00 a.m. So until what hours on the 14th did

13 Muslims continue to arrive at the school?

14 A. They stopped arriving in the school sometime during the night.

15 Q. Well, during the day of the 14th, did any Muslims arrive at the

16 school in Orahovac, to your recollection?

17 A. No.

18 Q. All right. And roughly how many Muslims do you recall arriving to

19 Orahovac total?

20 A. In my assessment, between 5 and 600.

21 Q. And where were they put?

22 A. They were placed in the gym of the Orahovac elementary school.

23 Q. What happened during the daylight hours at the school at Orahovac

24 on the 14th?

25 A. I don't know exactly when it was. It could have been sometime in

Page 6608

1 the afternoon. I was not present at the entrance to the gym, but I know

2 that two Srebrenica Muslims were taken out - in what manner, I'm not able

3 to tell you. They had a disagreement with -- a fight with two soldiers,

4 including Jasikovac. And I saw that one of the two was killed on this

5 plateau, this clearing, outside the gym. I didn't see the other, but

6 Jasikovac later told me that there was one more killed.

7 This all happened at the time I was coming back from the telephone

8 call which I had made with Mr. Jokic, who was the duty operations officer.

9 I talked to him because I wanted to know where Drago Nikolic was and

10 whether he could provide assistance in terms of security in Orahovac. And

11 thereafter, he made a telephone conversation with Lazar Ristic, the deputy

12 commander of the infantry battalion, to see if there were troops that

13 could be sent to reinforce the security needed at the Orahovac elementary

14 school gym where the Muslims were being kept.

15 Q. All right. Let us first finish the incident related to the

16 Muslims who were killed. Did you actually see a Muslim killed outside the

17 gym?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was -- did this appear to be justified or an unjustified killing?

20 A. Unjustified.

21 Q. And who killed this Muslim?

22 A. I don't know which one of the members of this group did it.

23 Q. Which group?

24 A. The group of people who were there with him, the members of the

25 military police who were with Jasikovac at the MP commander [as

Page 6609

1 interpreted].

2 Q. You said before you had seen this murder, you had decided to go

3 call the duty officer of the brigade. And can you explain to us why you

4 decided to go call the brigade duty officer.

5 A. I decided to do that because I thought that we might encounter

6 major problems there, and I wanted to know if there was any possibility of

7 sending more people to reinforce security. And I wanted Drago Nikolic to

8 be notified of these problems.

9 Q. What problems did you think you were going to have?

10 A. Well, I didn't know to what extent it was possible for those

11 prisoners to get out. Given the number of people, I thought that it was

12 impossible to provide adequate security.

13 Q. So where did you go to make a telephone call?

14 A. I went to a private house in the vicinity of the elementary

15 school. I don't know the name of the owner of the house.

16 Q. And who did you call?

17 A. I called the duty officer, the operations duty officer, of the

18 Zvornik Brigade, Mr. Jokic. And I told him I needed help. If possible,

19 if he was able to organise it, to send me some help. I wanted to know if

20 Drago was there, to -- I wanted to talk to him. I wanted him to call me

21 or to come over there.

22 Q. When you say "him," meaning who? Drago Nikolic or Dragan Jokic?

23 A. I said whether Drago Nikolic was there, and that if he was there,

24 that he should send him over to Orahovac.

25 Q. And how did you know that you were talking to Dragan Jokic?

Page 6610

1 A. At first, I didn't.

2 Q. And then how was it that you knew who you were talking to?

3 A. On the basis of my recollection that this could be Jokic, and then

4 I realised it was him.

5 Q. Do you remember an investigator in the U.S. Reminding you of any

6 names of people or not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did that help you identify who you were speaking to?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, as you sit here today, is there any doubt in your mind who

11 you were talking to when you were talking to the duty officer that day on

12 the 14th?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And what, if anything, did Mr. Jokic say to you when you made this

15 request?

16 A. He said he didn't know where Drago was, and that they didn't know

17 what the possibility was, because they did not have any men available

18 there at the time, but that he would see what he could do and that he

19 would do his best to help us.

20 Q. Okay. After that did you call anyone else?

21 A. Yes, I already said that I had talked to Lazar Ristic, the deputy

22 commander of the 4th Battalion.

23 Q. I believe you testified earlier that you said that Dragan Jokic

24 called Lazar Ristic. Perhaps it was a translation issue, but can you

25 clarify that for us. Did you call Lazar Ristic or did Jokic call Lazar

Page 6611

1 Ristic?

2 A. No. I called Lazar Ristic, after I finished my conversation with

3 Mr. Jokic.

4 Q. And do you know about what time during the day you called

5 Mr. Jokic?

6 A. I cannot tell you the exact time, but I know that it was sometime

7 in the afternoon.

8 Q. Okay. And how soon after calling Mr. Jokic did you call

9 Mr. Ristic?

10 A. Immediately after the first phone call, I called Mr. Ristic.

11 Q. And who, to your knowledge, at the time was Mr. Ristic? Why would

12 you call Mr. Ristic?

13 A. Mr. Ristic was the deputy commander of the 4th Battalion, and the

14 4th Battalion, its headquarters and its defence lines, were located

15 slightly closer to the location of the elementary school where the Muslims

16 were housed. And the reason was that if he had any people to provide for

17 us to assist us, they would have been able to arrive more quickly.

18 Q. And so what did you say to -- and who was Lazar Ristic?

19 A. Lazar Ristic was the deputy commander of the 4th Battalion of the

20 Zvornik Brigade.

21 Q. What did you say to Mr. Ristic when you called him?

22 A. I told him that I was in the school where the Muslims from

23 Srebrenica were housed and that there were not enough people to provide

24 security and that we would need, if he had, any people available, that he

25 should send them over to assist us.

Page 6612

1 Q. And what did he say?

2 A. He said that at that time he didn't know to what extent he would

3 be able to assist us, because they themselves also had certain precaution

4 measures that they had to take in their part of the line, but that he

5 would do as much as he could.

6 Q. So at the time in the afternoon of these phone calls, is there

7 anybody else at Orahovac, besides the Muslims you've described and the MPs

8 you've described with Jasikovac and yourself? Any other military or

9 police units, or any other units?

10 A. Yes. They were present there, but I don't know exactly, because I

11 don't know them. They had camouflage uniforms.

12 Q. I'm sorry. Besides the MPs and yourself, who else was there?

13 A. They were only providing security. In fact, as for the security,

14 there were only the MPs and us.

15 Q. So let me clarify it. Are you saying there are some other troops

16 besides the MPs and yourself that were at the school at this time?

17 A. Only later did I see that there were some, but not at the time

18 when we were providing security. But after the request was issued,

19 personnel came from the Zvornik Brigade command. A group came. I don't

20 know exactly how many there were, I think maybe five or six. And among

21 them --

22 Q. Can you tell me how long after your phone call with Mr. Jokic

23 these people from the command showed up.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 6613

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It may have been about --

2 MR. KARNAVAS: The question was -- the answer -- the question was:

3 After the phone call with Mr. Jokic, these people from the command. I'm

4 not quite sure that the gentleman -- I withdraw the objection,

5 Your Honour. I see that he did indicate that they came from the command.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, the answer is that, but after the request was

7 issued, personnel came from the Zvornik Brigade command.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I apologise, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

11 Q. Witness, so how long after the phone call to Mr. Jokic did these

12 people from the Zvornik command show up at the school at Orahovac?

13 A. Approximately an hour later.

14 Q. And how is it -- or why is it that you conclude they were from the

15 Zvornik Brigade command?

16 A. I concluded that because I knew two of them personally, two of the

17 people in the group, that was Sretan Milosevic, Captain Sretan Milosevic,

18 assistant commander for logistics in the Zvornik Brigade, and

19 Milenko Jovanovic, he was the commander of the headquarters administration

20 in the Zvornik Brigade.

21 Q. What was his rank, Milenko's rank?

22 A. I don't know exactly. He may have been a sergeant. I can't

23 remember now.

24 Q. Were these people from the brigade command assigned responsibility

25 at Orahovac?

Page 6614

1 A. Yes. They immediately started providing security for the Muslims

2 that were housed in the elementary school in Orahovac.

3 Q. And who told them what to do?

4 A. Milosevic immediately said that he would help with the

5 organisation, because he had learned that there were problems here. And

6 Milenko simply joined in organising things, together with Milosevic.

7 Q. Did you help organise this security also?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And did anybody show up from the 4th Battalion, to your

10 knowledge?

11 A. Yes. As far as I know, it was a group of about four, five, or

12 maybe six soldiers. I don't recall exactly, not more than that. Because

13 he immediately told me during the conversation I had with Lazar Ristic,

14 that's what he told me then.

15 Q. When did the people from the 4th Battalion show up, how long after

16 your phone call with Ristic?

17 A. Well, according to my estimate, as far as I can remember, about

18 two hours.

19 Q. Did you know any of these people from the 4th Battalion?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How do you know they were from the 4th Battalion, then?

22 A. I assumed that on the basis of the request that had been made and

23 the size of the group that had arrived, their strength.

24 Q. Which direction did they arrive from?

25 A. They arrived from the direction of Kitovnice.

Page 6615

1 Q. Is that the direction of the front lines where most of the 4th

2 Battalion troops were deployed?

3 A. Yes. That's where the defence line manned by the 4th Battalion

4 was.

5 Q. Okay. After your phone calls, did you phone anybody else besides

6 Dragan Jokic and Lazar Ristic that afternoon?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And besides the people from the headquarters who you've described

9 and the people from the 4th Battalion, did any other officers come to the

10 Orahovac school after you made those phone calls?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When -- didn't you say to us that at some point Drago Nikolic

13 arrived there?

14 A. Drago Nikolic arrived in the early evening on the 14th of July,

15 immediately before the beginning of the execution of the prisoners from

16 Srebrenica. I thought that you were referring to the group that had

17 arrived, if somebody had arrived at that time.

18 Q. No. What I mean is after the afternoon after these phone calls,

19 when was the next group of officers that arrived, if any?

20 A. Yes. Drago Nikolic came. The chief of security for the

21 Drina Corps, Popovic, arrived. They came together in a -- in the same

22 vehicle. And I didn't see any other officer there, any other officer

23 arriving there or being present there.

24 Q. Okay. And about what time did Drago Nikolic and Popovic arrive at

25 the school at Orahovac on the 14th?

Page 6616

1 A. In the early evening, approximately.

2 Q. Prior to their arrival, had there been any executions of prisoners

3 in the gym, aside from the killings that you've already mentioned that you

4 saw the one person killed?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Prior to Drago Nikolic and Popovic arriving, had you or anyone

7 else provided any plan to kill those people in the gym?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So what happened -- what was -- what happened when Drago and

10 Popovic show up?

11 A. When Drago Nikolic arrived, I was en route, on the road, on the

12 path between the gym and the private house, that was the path that led to

13 Kitovnice. I said to him, Where have you been? There have been problems

14 here, something to that effect. He told me that Beara had come and that

15 he had things to do with him, that he was unable to come earlier. He

16 asked about what kind of problems there were, and he said, All of these

17 people are to be executed immediately. Where is Jasikovac? Do we have to

18 ask for volunteers to organise this. The engineer unit received its

19 orders, and we have to prepare the vehicles immediately and the volunteers

20 for the people to be taken out, put on to vehicles, and taken to the

21 execution site.

22 Q. Now, when you spoke to the OTP in the United States, you never

23 mentioned anything about engineers at this stage of the story, did you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you or did you not mention engineers in your story in the

Page 6617

1 United States?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So you didn't mention anything about engineers in the

4 United States. Is that right?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. And why are you now mentioning engineers? Why did you -- I'm

7 sorry. Let me try that again. Why did you not mention engineers when you

8 were talking about this information in the United States?

9 A. Yes. That was the beginning of my direct involvement and

10 responsibility for this operation that was carried out. I left out some

11 things because I was afraid of incurring this responsibility.

12 Q. Afraid of what?

13 A. I was afraid that an indictment would be issued against me.

14 Q. Okay. So -- now, describe how this was the beginning of your

15 personal responsibility. How did that relate to the engineers, in your

16 view?

17 A. I had contacts with the engineers about the relocation of the mass

18 graves and the entire operation in which the mass graves were relocated.

19 Q. Okay. I'm not talking about the relocation of the mass graves.

20 Right now you've mentioned that Drago Nikolic mentioned something about

21 the engineers at Orahovac. Did you have any dealings with the engineers

22 while you were at Orahovac?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. So what did you mean when you said Drago said the engineers had

25 their responsibility?

Page 6618

1 A. I was told that they were preparing to dig the pits where the

2 Muslims that would be executed would be buried.

3 Q. So why didn't you tell us that information in the United States?

4 A. I said -- as I said, that marks the beginning of my involvement

5 with the engineer unit, my responsibility and my direct involvement in

6 these events.

7 Q. All right. Can you --

8 A. So for reasons of my personal safety and the safety of my family

9 that lives in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Q. All right. So after Drago Nikolic told you this information, what

11 did you do?

12 A. I immediately started preparing the vehicles and preparing for the

13 prisoners to be taken out -- I mean, the prisoners who were then sent to

14 the execution sites.

15 Q. What did you do to prepare vehicles?

16 A. Vehicles were brought and parked in front of the very entrance to

17 the gym.

18 Q. What kind of vehicles?

19 A. These were the vehicles from the Zvornik Brigade, and they had the

20 part of the truck was covered with canvas.

21 Q. Who arranged for these vehicles to come to Orahovac?

22 A. I assumed that it was Drago Nikolic, together with the assistant

23 to the commander for logistics, Sretan Milosevic.

24 Q. Did you have anything to do with ordering or speaking to anyone

25 about getting trucks over to the school?

Page 6619

1 A. No.

2 Q. Was there any material brought to blindfold the Muslims?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And do you know who arranged for acquiring the material for the

5 blindfolds?

6 A. That was Jasikovac, the commander of the military police company.

7 Q. And what did he get for blindfolds and where?

8 A. I don't know. I wasn't there, so I don't know who he talked to.

9 But at any rate, the materials were brought in and the military police

10 officers cut the material into required lengths.

11 Q. Do you know any particular officers by name that took part in this

12 making of the blindfolds?

13 A. I don't know the officers, but I do know that Nada, the police

14 woman, whose last name I don't know, was there. She was a member of the

15 military police company of the Zvornik Brigade.

16 Q. Besides Nada, were there any other female MPs that were at

17 Orahovac that day?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. So as you're organising the trucks and the MPs are

20 organising the blindfolds, what else is going on, if anything?

21 A. In that period, also the volunteers who would carry out the

22 executions were also being prepared.

23 Q. And who was preparing the volunteers or calling for the

24 volunteers?

25 A. Drago Nikolic and Jasikovac, the military police company

Page 6620

1 commander.

2 Q. And do you know who volunteered for this job or who was chosen or

3 volunteered for this job, the execution job, that day?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know what units they were from?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, what happens next?

8 A. Muslims were taken out of the school; they were blindfolded. And

9 they got on the trucks. And as soon as a truck would be full, it would

10 set off towards its destination, the place where the Srebrenica Muslims

11 were executed.

12 Q. Do you know who picked out those execution sites?

13 A. I assume it was Drago Nikolic.

14 Q. Why do you assume it was him?

15 A. Because he told me that these people would be executed, and he

16 went to that area, to the area where the executions were carried out.

17 Q. How do you know he went to the area where the executions were

18 carried out?

19 A. I know because when the volunteers were picked out and when the

20 vehicles went, he went there personally. He was not at the place where I

21 was, where the organisation was carried out, where the exits of the

22 prisoners from the gym and their entry into the vehicles and the arrival

23 of new vehicles after the full vehicles had left, when all this was

24 organised.

25 Q. Okay. When the first vehicles full of Muslim prisoners drove away

Page 6621

1 from the school, did you hear any gunfire after that?

2 A. Yes. There were bursts of gunfire from the direction in which

3 they had gone.

4 Q. And how long did this process of blindfolding, loading prisoners,

5 and taking them out to the execution sites go on?

6 A. It took the entire evening of the 14th of July.

7 Q. And how about the morning -- the early morning hours of the 15th?

8 What was done from midnight on the 15th to daybreak?

9 A. After the Muslims were executed, the cleanup operation was carried

10 out, the areas where they were located were cleaned up. Items of clothing

11 or footwear or documents that remained there were cleaned up. This was

12 organised by Jasikovac, the commander of the military police company.

13 Q. And had any Muslims died in the gym while they were staying there?

14 A. Yes. I think about a dozen of them had also -- were also taken to

15 the execution site and were buried there in the mass grave.

16 Q. All right. About what time of night was the last truck of Muslims

17 loaded and sent off to the execution sites?

18 A. It may have been at around 4.00 or 5.00 a.m.

19 Q. The morning of the 15th?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what did you do after the last of the Muslims were sent off to

22 the execution site?

23 A. I was present there while the place was cleaned up, and I waited

24 to go to the brigade because of the vehicles and all those people who had

25 to go there. But at any rate, I did not have any specific tasks that I

Page 6622

1 had to carry out.

2 Q. Your task to get the Muslims loaded on the trucks had already

3 finished. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, during the day of the 14th or the early morning hours of the

6 15th, did you see any excavation or engineering equipment in the area?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you ever get involved in organising for heavy equipment to

9 come bury the bodies at the mass graves near Orahovac?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know who did?

12 A. Yes. It was the engineer unit of the Zvornik Brigade.

13 Q. But do you know who contacted them to get them involved in this

14 mess?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. And about what time were you able to leave the school at

17 Orahovac?

18 A. It was approximately sometime in the morning at around 8.00 in the

19 morning on the 15th.

20 Q. And prior to you leaving, did you notice if any of the MPs were

21 allowed to leave before you?

22 A. I didn't notice any.

23 Q. Did you notice whether or not Nada was allowed to leave at any

24 time during this process, the one female MP?

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

Page 6623

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't notice that --


3 MR. KARNAVAS: A slight qualification to the question. Was

4 allowed to leave, as if someone was compelling them to stay. I think the

5 question should be rephrased whether she left, as opposed to being allowed

6 to leave.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's a very minor, very minor issue.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: It is, but it's suggestive. I want a clean record.

9 Mr. McCloskey continuously argues against me for trying to muddy up the

10 waters with respect to the record. And I'm trying to just make sure we

11 have a clean record here, because it may become an issue at some other

12 point.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, if you insist.

14 Mr. McCloskey, would you please rephrase your question.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

16 Q. Do you know if Nada, the female MP, ever left the area of Orahovac

17 after this -- after you saw her with the blindfold?

18 A. No, I don't know.

19 Q. Soldiers are generally not allowed to leave assignments; they have

20 to get instructions before they go. Isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So did you receive any instructions from anyone allowing you to go

23 or leave Orahovac?

24 A. Yes. From Drago Nikolic, he told us that we were allowed to go.

25 Q. And what time did Drago Nikolic tell you you were allowed to go?

Page 6624

1 A. I can't be specific about the time, but it was in the morning

2 after the execution was completed.

3 Q. And where was he when he told you this?

4 A. On the clearing in front of the gym where the Muslims had been

5 housed, I mean the elementary school in Orahovac.

6 Q. Okay. And so where did you go?

7 A. I went to the Zvornik Brigade command.

8 Q. And why did you go to the command?

9 A. I went to the command to go on my way, because I -- it was not my

10 intention to stay there for any length of time. Because the vehicles went

11 only as far as the Zvornik Brigade command.

12 Q. Again, why in particular did you go to the Zvornik Brigade

13 command? I don't understand.

14 A. I went to the command just to accompany the group. I mean, I went

15 there because of the availability of the transport. My intention was to

16 continue on my way home from there, because prior to that I had been

17 allowed by Drago Nikolic to leave.

18 Q. Okay. In the United States you told us that Drago allowed you to

19 leave shortly after you heard the executions starting out at the killing

20 fields, and was that true when you told us that in the U.S.?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was that a truthful statement in the U.S., that you were allowed

23 to leave at that time?

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, objection, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Why?

Page 6625

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection because -- okay. He gave a false

2 statement in the United States; he does admit to it. But now the question

3 was he allowed to leave is suggesting that he requested to leave and he

4 was not permitted to leave. As I understand it when he corrected himself

5 and in telling the truth, at no time did he indicate that he wanted to

6 leave, that he made a request to leave, and he was forbidden to leave.

7 There lies the difference. I don't think -- you know, if the question was

8 rephrased, such as: Did you try to leave before the executions or right

9 after the executions and he said yes, then we can follow on with the next

10 question. But there is no indication from the witness that at any point

11 in time once the executions started did he ever asked Drago Nikolic to

12 leave.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think the problem here is about

14 the time, not about whether he's allowed and he asked any permission to

15 leave after the starting of the killings.

16 But anyway, Mr. McCloskey, try to rephrase your question.


18 Q. In the United States you told us about being present when men were

19 loaded on to the trucks and sent to the execution site. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you also told us that before you left Orahovac, you were able

22 to hear the sound of executions down the road from the school. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, in the United States, just can you briefly tell us what

Page 6626

1 version you gave us in the United States about when you left.

2 A. In the United States I said that I had left after the third or --

3 the second or the third truckload of Muslims who were to be executed, in

4 Orahovac, that is.

5 Q. And was that false?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And is the truth what you have told us about today, that you in

8 fact left in the morning of the 15th, after the job was finished?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And -- now, let's get back to -- you went by the

11 headquarters briefly, and then where did you go, this is on the morning of

12 the 15th?

13 A. After that, I went home to Kozluk, which is located some 30

14 kilometres from the Zvornik Brigade headquarters.

15 Q. Okay. How long were you at the Zvornik Brigade headquarters the

16 morning of the 15th?

17 A. Two hours, approximately.

18 Q. And where did you go?

19 A. I went home to my family.

20 Q. No. I mean where did you go in the Zvornik Brigade headquarters

21 when you were there? In fact, let me start over, because I think we might

22 have some confusion. How long were you actually at the Zvornik Brigade

23 headquarters the morning of the 15th when you stopped by after Orahovac?

24 A. For about two hours.

25 Q. Okay. And where on the premises of the Zvornik Brigade did you

Page 6627

1 go?

2 A. I went to the premises of the Zvornik Brigade command, where we

3 had an office; I mean we, the security branch. I didn't stay there very

4 long, because I had to go home. So I actually spent more time outside the

5 building trying to figure out how I can get home, what transport I could

6 get.

7 Q. While you were at the premises of the Zvornik Brigade, did you see

8 Drago Nikolic there that morning?

9 A. No, I was not with Drago Nikolic at the time.

10 Q. Did you ever see him around?

11 A. No.

12 Q. While you were at the brigade that morning, did you see

13 Dragan Obrenovic around the brigade?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How about Vinko Pandurevic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Popovic?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Beara?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Any officers you recall seeing while you were there?

22 A. I don't recall.

23 Q. And why was it you went home?

24 A. I went home to see my family, because I had been absent for some

25 time. I don't know exactly for how long. Because on that day they were

Page 6628

1 supposed to leave this place and go on a vacation.

2 Q. And when you got home, did you see your family?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So how long did you stay home that day of the 15th?

5 A. I didn't stay very long; until early in the evening.

6 Q. And did you get any sleep when you were at home?

7 A. No. In the evening I went back to the Zvornik Brigade

8 headquarters.

9 Q. Why did you go back to the Zvornik Brigade headquarters?

10 A. I went back because I needed some rest. I had not had any sleep

11 for the past two nights, and there was no one at home.

12 Q. Why didn't you get your rest at home?

13 A. Because there was a possibility of someone coming to look for me,

14 because of my work obligation. Because at the time, the security measures

15 were at a very high level in all units.

16 Q. And there was a very large murder operation going on that security

17 was involved with. Is that true?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So about what time did you get back to the brigade headquarters on

20 the 15th?

21 A. At about 7.00 in the evening, sometime in the evening.

22 Q. And what did you do there?

23 A. After I arrived, I went upstairs to the second floor where the

24 sleeping quarters of the Zvornik Brigade headquarters were.

25 Q. And what did you do?

Page 6629

1 A. I went to my room and got some rest. I slept there that night.

2 Q. Okay. Next morning, the morning of the 16th, about what time did

3 you get up?

4 A. I don't recall exactly when, at what time, but I know that it was

5 very early, at about 5.00 or 6.00 a.m.

6 Q. And what did you do?

7 A. I went down to the ground floor of the Zvornik Brigade command. I

8 wanted to go to the restaurant to have something to eat.

9 Q. Tell us what significant events occurred that morning.

10 A. As for the significant events that occurred on the 16th of July in

11 the morning, it was the execution of Srebrenica Muslims who had been

12 placed in Rocevic and Pilica. And the breakthrough of the remainder of

13 Muslims who were going through Srebrenica to Tuzla in the area of

14 Baljkovice.

15 Q. All right And on the morning of the 16th, did you meet with anyone

16 regarding what I will refer to as the murder operation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And who was that?

19 A. Drago Nikolic, chief security officer of the Zvornik Brigade; and

20 Popovic, chief security officer of the Drina Corps.

21 Q. And about what time was it that you saw Drago Nikolic and

22 Mr. Popovic?

23 A. I don't remember the exact hour. It could have been around 6.00,

24 after 6.00.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this might be a good time to take a

Page 6630

1 break.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume at quarter to 6.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 5.13 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. Please continue.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Okay. Witness, can you tell us where you had this brief -- or

8 this encounter with Mr. Popovic and Drago Nikolic in the early morning of

9 16 July.

10 A. In the corridor on the ground floor of the Zvornik Brigade

11 headquarters.

12 Q. Okay. And did either of them say anything to you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who said what?

15 A. Popovic told me that I had to go to Rocevic or Pilica that day to

16 get involved in the execution of Muslims who were detained there. Because

17 of my previous experience in Orahovac, he said I was able to do that.

18 Q. And what else was said at that time?

19 A. Drago Nikolic was there as well, and he said that I couldn't go

20 there because of my obligations here. And he said Pop, you go, Pop

21 meaning Popovic.

22 Q. In what context did this lieutenant say that to this lieutenant

23 colonel, the chief of security of the Drina Corps?

24 A. The context being the fact that I had other obligations there, and

25 that he should go instead. It was not an order, properly speaking.

Page 6631

1 Q. How did Popovic respond to this?

2 A. He didn't say anything else to me. After this, I left.

3 Q. And what was your duty that day of the 16th?

4 A. That day of the 16th, I was the duty operations officer in the

5 Zvornik Brigade.

6 Q. And what time did that start?

7 A. My shift started early in the morning, sometime earlier than

8 usual, before 7.00.

9 Q. And at any time that day did Popovic issue you any instructions to

10 assist his operation to murder people up in the Pilica area?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when did he issue you any instructions?

13 A. I cannot tell you the precise time. It was immediately after I

14 took over my duties, so sometime after 7.00, between 7.00 and 8.00 a.m.

15 Q. And was he in person or was this over some communication that he

16 issued you some instruction?

17 A. He personally told me that.

18 Q. What instruction did he give you?

19 A. He said that I should report to the Vlasenica command and the

20 Bratunac command and see if they have a certain number of people to send

21 to Rocevic and Pilica, because they were needed as assistants in the

22 execution of Muslims who were detained there.

23 Q. Okay. So what did you do when he gave you this instruction?

24 A. After I received this request, I made telephone contact with the

25 Drina Corps command located at Vlasenica, that is with the Colonel --

Page 6632

1 Colonel Cerovic, to whom I had conveyed Popovic's request.

2 Q. And do you remember what you actually said to Colonel Cerovic?

3 A. Yes. I said to him that Popovic had been here and that he had

4 told me to report to Vlasenica and Bratunac commands because he needed a

5 number of people to be sent to the area of Rocevic and Pilica for the

6 purposes of execution.

7 Q. Was this one of the open lines, or do you know if this was a

8 secure line that you were speaking on?

9 A. It was an open line.

10 Q. Do you know if you spoke explicitly about executions or whether

11 you tried to code it in some way?

12 A. Not directly, not in this manner. Something to the effect that

13 they should be sent over there, you know where, for the purposes of the

14 operation to be carried out there.

15 Q. All right. And did Cerovic respond to you when you passed on this

16 request?

17 A. He didn't say anything specific. He accepted it and he said that

18 he would do it to the best of his capabilities.

19 Q. Now, there was -- on the morning of the 16th, was there a need for

20 troops to assist at the front line at Baljkovice about the same time that

21 you make this request?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you believe that Cerovic understood that you were talking about

24 the murder operation and not the reinforcement for the combat operation.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection.

Page 6633


2 MR. KARNAVAS: Calls for speculation. The question can be

3 rephrased.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well --

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can try something else, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, maybe you could try it.


8 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that Mr. Cerovic misunderstood

9 you in any way?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, objection. Calls for speculation. Now it's

11 whether he misunderstood him. It presumes that he did, in fact,

12 understand him that this was about the killing operation. I think it can

13 be rephrased in a manner in which it's not suggestive to the witness.

14 JUDGE LIU: But anyway, you ask this witness to testify about the

15 other person's understanding of this message.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's not my particular meaning and I'll try to

17 get it around another way.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.


20 Q. Did Mr. Cerovic say anything to indicate he didn't understand what

21 you were saying?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Same objection, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: No. I don't think so this time.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, if -- if he understood what he meant, I don't

25 have a problem. In any event, I'll deal with it on cross, Your Honour.

Page 6634

1 JUDGE LIU: Maybe, Mr. McCloskey, you could ask the first part of

2 the question. Just ask: Did Mr. Cerovic say anything?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

4 Q. Did Mr. Cerovic say anything after you passed on the request?

5 A. He said that he would do what he could and that he would send as

6 many men as he could and as many men as the circumstances were allowing.

7 Q. Did you mention that this request was from Popovic when you spoke

8 to Cerovic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did -- you said that Popovic requested you call another unit

11 as well. Did you do that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And who did you call?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. And who -- what other unit did you call?

16 A. I called Bratunac.

17 Q. And do you know who you spoke to?

18 A. I spoke to the duty officer.

19 Q. Did you know that individual's name?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. And what did you -- how did you pass on the request from Popovic

22 when speaking to the duty officer of the Bratunac Brigade?

23 A. I told him that Popovic had been here to see me and that he wanted

24 me to get in touch with Vlasenica and -- you -- with the request to send a

25 number of men to join in the operation he was involved in. And also, that

Page 6635

1 you should get in touch with Vlasenica, Colonel Cerovic, regarding the

2 organisation of sending.

3 Q. And did you get any -- what response, if any, did you get from the

4 duty officer of the Bratunac Brigade at this time?

5 A. I did not get any response.

6 Q. Well, were they still on the line? What I mean is: Did he say

7 anything to you after you told him this request?

8 A. Yes. Fine, we'll see what can be done.

9 Q. All right. And in your opinion, was there --

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. It calls for speculation. He's asking

11 for an opinion at this point.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: There's nothing wrong with an opinion from this

13 witness, not a darn thing.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well --

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if he's going to be asking about a

16 state of mind, I even object to line of the question. I don't even want

17 the question uttered. If he's going to be asking: In your opinion, was

18 someone asking what you meant?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's not my question. Nice guess.

20 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey, I think the opinion from this witness

21 is allowed, and the question is how much weight we put on this piece of

22 the evidence. Let the Prosecutor finish his question.

23 Yes.


25 Q. In your opinion, was there any miscommunication on your part or

Page 6636

1 any confusion on your part in communicating to the Bratunac Brigade duty

2 officer?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. Now, getting back to a broader question, you were duty

5 officer I think all the way even until the 17th of July. Isn't that

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you ever hear back from the Bratunac Brigade upon your request

9 for reinforcements for Popovic and this operation related to Pilica?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. How about, did you ever hear back from Vlasenica or Cerovic

12 about Popovic's request that you had passed on to them for reinforcements,

13 related to Popovic's murder operation?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. Later on in the day were there some communications

16 regarding reinforcements for the combat operation out at Baljkovice?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. We'll -- when we get to those exhibits, we can -- I'll ask

19 you more particular questions. I want to show you now an exhibit. It

20 should be marked -- 133 is the English version, 133/B is the B/C/S

21 version. And I've got an original -- a colour copy of the original with

22 the dates marked on it. If I could show this to the witness. And opening

23 it to page -- well, to the date of July 16, page 26 in the English and

24 last three digits, 763 in the -- yeah, 763 in the B/C/S.

25 First of all, can you take a look at this copy and tell us what

Page 6637

1 this book is a copy of, if you know.

2 A. This is the logbook of the duty officer, duty operations officer

3 of the Zvornik Brigade.

4 Q. Okay. And this particular logbook, what is its function and

5 purpose?

6 A. Jotting down notes in the course of the watch, messages, requests

7 received, reports, things like that.

8 Q. Okay. Is there another duty officer's logbook that is a more

9 formal book that is written in a more formal way?

10 A. Yes. There is the book of reports sent to the commander.

11 Q. Okay. We have been referring to this book as the duty officer

12 workbook so -- just for clarity, I will be referring to this exhibit, 133,

13 as the workbook you described as people put notes in or the duty officer

14 puts notes in. And could you look at what is --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you look at what is marked as -- well, does this look like a

17 genuine book or a copy of a genuine book?

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, Your Honour. If that's the original

19 book -- excuse me, if this is the original book, then it shouldn't be a

20 copy of the book. It either is the original or it is not the original.

21 So which one is it. And it's not whether it looks like one but whether he

22 recognises that document, and then the next question should be: What do

23 you recognise it to be, and how do you so recognise it. In that line of

24 questioning, I don't have a problem. But if that is the original one that

25 was kept, then he should be able to identify it if the gentleman knows it,

Page 6638

1 not if it's a copy of it.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the Prosecutor is going to

3 rephrase his question.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, that -- I really don't want to

5 rephrase my question, because it meant to -- this is not the real book,

6 and that's what I'm asking him. Is this a copy of a real book.


8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can try that.

9 Q. Is this a copy of a real book?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And how do you know that this is a copy of a real book?

12 A. These are my notes that I took in the course of my watch.

13 Q. Okay. Is this -- do these notes reflect the notes that you took

14 on the 16th of July?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Well, let me then go to what is in the B/C/S -- in your

17 book, the last three numbers, which are the red numbers, 763. If you

18 could go to that page. Do you see what I mean?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, I don't mean to interrupt here, but if this

22 is a copy of the real book, then where is the real book so at least we can

23 compare this to the real book. I think there's a problem with

24 authentication. I understand that this may be something that the

25 gentleman kept as a diary, as one of his private possessions. But if

Page 6639

1 there is an original book, where is it so we can compare that?

2 JUDGE LIU: To my understanding, I believe this document has

3 already been admitted into the evidence.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Now this gentleman is saying this is his copy,

5 unless I'm understanding the question, the way it's being phrased. So

6 when was this copied? Was it copied contemporaneous at the time? Was it

7 copied afterward so that they could have some safe keeping, you know so

8 they could have something later on in the event that when they came here

9 to the Tribunal, I don't know. But he's saying that this was a copy of

10 the original one.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, to me, there's no problem. But for the sake of

12 the record, Mr. McCloskey, maybe you could lay some foundations on it.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. And your recollection is

14 correct. This book is in evidence, and I'm sure Mr. Karnavas just has

15 forgotten all the foundation that went into this, because it was mostly

16 for Zvornik. But this person doesn't really know much more than that's

17 the handwriting in his book, as far as I know. And I can refer the Court

18 and Mr. Karnavas to all the testimony of Dragan Obrenovic and how he got

19 the original of the book and all that that was the foundation that

20 provided it into evidence in the first place and that he recognised

21 certain handwriting in it and the situation where he got it from and all

22 that.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: It's not that I don't recollect. It's the way the

Page 6640

1 question was posed that this was his book, as if a personal book. Now

2 with the qualification being made by Mr. McCloskey, I don't have a problem

3 with the questions posed. He wrote in this book, but to say that it's

4 his, meaning his and his alone, this witness's, I have a problem with

5 that. And that's not my understanding, that that's what this book

6 reflects.

7 JUDGE LIU: I think there's a misunderstanding.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't want to lead the impression that this is

9 his book. This is the book used by the duty officer, as he's described.

10 JUDGE LIU: I couldn't see where it is, you know. But I imagine

11 if it is his book. But you may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.


13 Q. So this is not the original book that you're looking at in front

14 of you right now, is it?

15 A. Yes -- no, no. That's not the original book.

16 Q. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. Have you had a chance to see the

17 actual original book at some point in the last few months?

18 A. Yes. No, no, that's not the original book.

19 Q. Okay, thanks. Thank you. Have you had a chance to see the

20 actual, original book at some point in the last few months?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And have you also had a chance to study this book and take it

23 home, the copy that -- like the one you have in front of you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. And so you recognise your handwriting in this copy?

Page 6641

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Let's go to page -- last three digits 763 of those stamped

3 red numbers that are on the top of the page. And there's a reference that

4 starts 0855 Golic, it's page 26 of the English. Do you see that in your

5 book?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. And I just want to ask you about a few of these entries.

8 The one 0855, Golic asked Popovic to call him and said that he can forget

9 what he asked for and what he wrote about. He knows what he is supposed

10 to do according to the agreed procedure. "Boss from Panorama (01).

11 Message conveyed to Popovic at 0910."

12 Do you know anything more about this than what is said here, this

13 cryptic message?

14 A. I know only that he sent in the request, as is stated here, and I

15 know that the message was conveyed to him. He knew what he had agreed at

16 Panorama 1.

17 Q. When it says: "Boss from Panorama 01," what's Panorama 01?

18 A. Panorama was the code name for the Main Staff, and 01 refers to

19 General Mladic.

20 Q. Okay. And so did you convey this message to Popovic at 9.10, like

21 it says?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you recall how you conveyed it?

24 A. I conveyed it over the phone.

25 Q. And do you know where Popovic was -- well, let me ask you: Who

Page 6642

1 were you talking to -- who was on the other end of the phone when you

2 conveyed this message to Popovic, if you know?

3 A. Popovic was at Pilica.

4 Q. So where was the phone located that he was speaking on, if you

5 know?

6 A. I don't know exactly where the phone was.

7 Q. Well, do you remember where you called? Was it a public number?

8 A private number? A military number? I mean, do you have any idea where

9 it was that you were calling?

10 A. It was a military number.

11 Q. Okay. And to what military unit?

12 A. The 1st Infantry Battalion.

13 Q. And is their headquarters near Pilica?

14 A. Not near Pilica, but there was a phone located near Pilica. That

15 was where a signalman was.

16 Q. Okay. And let's go to -- I think the bottom of the page there's

17 an entry that says Beara to call Panorama 1.55 at 0930 hours."

18 Is that your handwriting? Do you see that section? It should be

19 on the bottom of page 763.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that your handwriting in this exhibit, 133?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And we know who Beara is, but do you know who is Panorama

24 155?

25 A. Panorama is the code name for the Main Staff.

Page 6643

1 Q. And what's 155?

2 A. I don't know what that refers to.

3 Q. Okay. Did you receive a call from Panorama?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is this little note you took a reflection of your receiving

6 that call?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to the next page, it's English 27; in yours

9 it would be the last three digits 763. There is an entry that says:

10 "At 1.15 hours, it was reported from Zlatar that triage of wounded and

11 prisoners must be carried out, and it was reported to Beara."

12 Did you -- is that in your handwriting?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Have you seen an intercept that talks about Beara and triage like

15 this?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Well, first here what does it mean, that: "It was reported to

18 Zlatar that treatment of wounded and prisoners must be carried out." What

19 does that mean?

20 A. That the execution of the prisoners and wounded should be carried

21 out in the course of the day.

22 Q. And did you report that message to Beara, as it says here?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you do that in person or by some sort of communication means?

25 A. In person.

Page 6644

1 Q. Okay. And the next one says: "At 11.20 hours, Badem,

2 Colonel Jankovic was looking for Major Malinic." Is that in your

3 handwriting?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what is Badem?

6 A. That is the code name for the unit from Bratunac.

7 Q. And what does this mean, that Colonel Jankovic was looking for

8 Major Malinic?

9 A. Colonel Jankovic wanted Major Malinic to report to him.

10 Q. At that time did you know who Colonel Jankovic was?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you know who Major Malinic was?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you convey that message to anyone?

15 A. Yes. I conveyed it to the communications centre.

16 Q. Okay. And if we could go to exhibit 250, an intercept of 16 July

17 at 1111 hours. If you could take a look at the B/C/S version of that, and

18 we can put the -- well, let's not. Let's just hang on to the English.

19 Now, if you could just take a -- I won't read all of this, but if you

20 could just take a look at it.

21 Can you tell us who X is in this conversation?

22 A. That's me.

23 Q. Do you recall this conversation?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is this the conversation that in part is reflected in the book,

Page 6645

1 Exhibit 133, that we just talked about?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when X, or you, says: "Colonel Beara is right here by me,"

4 where was that?

5 A. That was in the duty operations officer's room, the duty

6 operations officer of the Zvornik Brigade.

7 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to the workbook, to your page 766;

8 English 29. And the section I want you to take a look at, it says: "At

9 1400 hours, Popovic requested a bus with a fuel tank and 500 litres of D2.

10 And Zlatar duty officer and Golic informed."

11 Again, is that note in your writing?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And do you know what this had to do with, this fuel request?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what?

16 A. For the operation of the execution in the Pilica area.

17 Q. And how did you know that?

18 A. I know that because I knew where Popovic was.

19 Q. And did you know what he was doing?

20 A. Yes. I know where he was and I knew that he was carrying out the

21 executions of Muslims who were located in that area.

22 Q. So did you -- what did you think the fuel was for?

23 A. The fuel for the transportation and for the continuation of the

24 operation of the killing.

25 Q. The transportation of the Muslim prisoners, you mean?

Page 6646

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Now, if we could briefly look at Exhibit 252, an intercept,

3 16 July, at 1358 hours. Again, take a look at the B/C/S. I know you've

4 had a chance to see this before, so just take a brief look at it. It

5 mentions the Palma duty officer. Who's that?

6 A. That's me.

7 Q. There's talk about 500 litres of D2 for Popovic and Pilica.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is that the same operation that you took a note on in the workbook

10 that we just talked about?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Let's go back to the workbook. And we'll skip up to page

13 34 in the English; page, last three digits, 771 in the B/C/S. And what I

14 want to ask you about is this section that says: "At 2210 hours, the

15 first battalion asked for one loader, one excavator, and a dump truck with

16 a tarpaulin to be in Pilica at O800 hours."

17 Is that in your handwriting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At the time did you know what the loader and excavator and dump

20 truck were needed for on 16 July?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what was that, up at the 1st Battalion area? What was it

23 needed for?

24 A. For the execution of the Muslims who were there, for the digging

25 of the pits, and their burial.

Page 6647

1 Q. Okay. And in that same section it says: "Conveyed to Jokic and

2 Milosevic."

3 Did you write that note: "Conveyed to Jokic and Milosevic"?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And so what does that note mean?

6 A. That they were notified that the machinery has to be supplied and

7 that it has to be sent to a certain area at a certain time.

8 Q. And who notified them?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. And who is this Jokic that you notified?

11 A. Jokic was the chief of the engineer unit in the Zvornik Brigade.

12 Q. And who is this Milosevic you notified?

13 A. Captain Milosevic was the assistant to the commander for logistics

14 in the Zvornik Brigade command.

15 Q. Why would you need to notify the logistics commander?

16 A. To include him to provide assistance regarding a truck, if the

17 engineer unit did not have the truck.

18 Q. When you conveyed this message to Mr. Jokic, do you recall

19 anything that he may have said to you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know how you conveyed it to him?

22 A. Over the phone.

23 Q. Do you know where he was when you phoned him?

24 A. The command of the engineer unit.

25 Q. In Kalesija area?

Page 6648

1 A. Of the Zvornik Brigade.

2 Q. Do you know whether he was at the command of the engineering unit

3 in Kalesija or whether he was at the command of the Zvornik Brigade when

4 you spoke to him, if you recall?

5 A. At the command of the engineering unit of the Zvornik Brigade.

6 Q. And that command was located where at the time?

7 A. Approximately 2 kilometres from the Zvornik Brigade headquarters.

8 Q. North of the headquarters?

9 A. From the command, as you go in the direction of the Petkovci

10 village.

11 Q. Okay. Let's go to English page 36; B/C/S 773. If you could go to

12 773 and take a look at the last line there on that page.

13 A. Now, in this section it says: "The 1st Battalion asked if the

14 engineer machines had been secured. Situation is normal. (redacted) to

15 report."

16 Do you recognise that handwriting.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you know whose handwriting that is?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Whose?

21 A. Of the assistant to the duty operations officer of the Zvornik

22 Brigade.

23 Q. Do you know that person's name?

24 A. I know that his name is Andjelko. I don't know his surname.

25 Q. What part of the brigade was he from?

Page 6649

1 A. He worked at the personnel section of the Zvornik Brigade.

2 Q. Do you remember his rank?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Was he an officer, lieutenant or above?

5 A. No, he was not an officer.

6 Q. Do you know what this means: "(redacted) to report"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what does it mean?

9 A. To provide report whether this has been secured.

10 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to an exhibit, another intercept, 257, 16

11 July, 2116 hours.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to private session on this, please.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.


15 Q. Now, do you have that in front of you?

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6650












12 Page 6650 redacted, private session














Page 6651












12 Page 6651 redacted, private session














Page 6652












12 Page 6652 redacted, private session














Page 6653

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 MR. KARNAVAS: I just want to register my unhappiness with respect

5 to what just happened. Because here we're shielding from the public

6 exactly that Mr. Blagojevic did not send anybody to do any killings. Just

7 by coincidence, the two most important intercepts are covered in private

8 session. And I must say, I am rather frustrated at this point,

9 Your Honour. I know that you're making the right decisions, but I must

10 register my frustration. And perhaps it's late in the evening and I'm a

11 little testy, but I am a little frustrated.

12 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, I already said that we will look into

13 it. Any important piece of the evidence we'll take into consideration.

14 There's no problem about that.

15 You may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, as you're aware, Mr. Butler cleared

17 up this issue a long time ago. The Prosecutor is not contesting it.

18 These comments are absurd and unnecessary by the Defence counsel.

19 Q. Sir, after the events of July 13th through 17th, did you become

20 aware of an operation to rebury the Muslim victims that were buried in the

21 mass graves around Zvornik?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did you first become aware of this operation?

24 A. Two months later, approximately. I cannot remember exactly how

25 long.

Page 6654

1 Q. And how did you become aware of it?

2 A. Drago told me that there was a possibility of mass graves being

3 dislocated, the mass graves in the area of Zvornik, that is.

4 Q. Okay. And then tell us what else you learned and when.

5 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear the first sentence the witness

6 said.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe one month after that, I heard

8 from Popovic, the chief security officer of the Drina Corps, at the

9 Zvornik Brigade headquarters in the office of the chief security officer.


11 Q. And what did you hear? What was said?

12 A. He said that the mass graves were going to be relocated, the mass

13 graves in the area of Zvornik, and that I should get involved on behalf of

14 the Zvornik Brigade command in order to assist the group which was

15 supposed to carry out the work, also in order to issue fuel and to monitor

16 the use of fuel that would be allocated to me and that would be sent on my

17 name.

18 Q. Who was present at the security office when he told you this?

19 A. Drago Nikolic, the Zvornik Brigade chief security officer was.

20 Q. And any other information he provided at -- on that date about

21 this?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What else?

24 A. He told me that the Zvornik Brigade force engineers should also

25 get involved in this operation, and that they should work together with

Page 6655

1 the force engineers of the 5th Infantry Battalion of the Drina Corps, and

2 that work should start immediately, that is, after all this has been

3 arranged for.

4 Q. Okay. So what did you do to assist in this operation?

5 A. As soon as I received the tasking and as soon as the means to

6 carry out the -- this operation arrived, I met with Mr. Jokic to see which

7 particular group would be involved. And he said there should be no

8 problems, that there was nothing to worry about, that a group had been

9 assigned to do the job for the engineering unit. And he introduced me to

10 the -- to a representative of this group who was to be involved in this

11 work; he introduced me to the member -- a member of this engineering unit,

12 Lazarevic -- I don't know what his name was.

13 Q. And which Jokic is this that's introducing you to Lazarevic?

14 A. The chief of the engineering unit of the Zvornik Brigade.

15 Q. Okay. And what else did you do related to this operation?

16 A. I was introduced to Lazarevic, and I told him what the upcoming

17 tasks would be. I told him also that he should get in touch with the

18 representatives of the force engineers of the 5th Battalion in order to

19 secure new pits where the existing ones should be relocated. And I asked

20 him whether he knew all those locations, and how the work should be done.

21 He said he did, because they had already visited those places.

22 Q. How much before the actual digging started did you have this

23 meeting with Mr. Jokic where he introduced you to Lazarevic?

24 A. It could have been 15 or 20 days before.

25 Q. So what did you do in relation to the actual programme itself?

Page 6656

1 A. The fuel that I received I then issued to Lazarevic, the fuel for

2 the machines, the construction machines that were going to be used for the

3 excavation. He was in daily contact with the other side, that is the

4 engineering unit of the 5th Battalion. So as they were digging new pits,

5 he was following up with the relocation of the primary graves.

6 I also told him that an average of between 80 and 100 should

7 remain in the primary graves, which was the request of Popovic, the

8 security officer of the Drina Corps.

9 Q. Did Popovic tell you why he wanted 80 to 100 bodies to remain in

10 the primary graves?

11 A. Yes, he did.

12 Q. What did he say?

13 A. He said that should an examination of those graves be carried out,

14 should an inquiry be made into the reasons of the existence of those

15 graves, this would then show that this was not correct.

16 Q. Do you have any information as to what the Zvornik Brigade

17 engineers were actually doing in this operation, aside from you

18 distributing fuel to Mr. Lazarevic?

19 A. Yes. They were involved in the digging out of those mass graves,

20 in the transport of those bodies to the new graves, which had been dug out

21 by the members of the 5th Battalion, the engineering unit of the 5th

22 Battalion, in other places.

23 Q. How did you know this?

24 A. I knew this because Popovic had made an indication of that in a

25 map. He had a diagram of the new graves.

Page 6657

1 Q. Well, how did the diagram indicate who was doing what, if it did?

2 A. This was not indicated in the diagram.

3 Q. So how do you know the Zvornik Brigade was actually involved in

4 digging, not just distributing fuel?

5 A. I know because I was in contact with Lazarevic. And I had

6 requested from Mr. Jokic to tell me what the work per hour of the

7 construction machines would be, so that I can justify the expenses in

8 terms of fuel.

9 Q. When did you have this contact with Mr. Jokic about the use per

10 hour of the machines, in relation to when the digging operation was going

11 on?

12 A. Yes. After the completion of the operation.

13 Q. And did you say anything to Mr. Jokic about what this fuel was --

14 what project you were involved with?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So what did you say to him about that?

17 A. I told him that the fuel had been sent to me for the construction

18 machines that were going to be involved in the operation, and that I had

19 to justify the expenses.

20 Q. And what, if anything, did Jokic respond to you when you said this

21 to him?

22 A. Yes, he said what the consumption of those machines would be per

23 hour.

24 Q. And what kind of machines was he talking about, were you and he

25 talking about?

Page 6658

1 A. He was talking about excavators and loaders, and also about a

2 truck which was used for transportation.

3 Q. Did you have any contact with anyone from the 5th Engineering

4 Battalion about this operation?

5 A. Yes, one.

6 Q. What was that and when?

7 A. This was just before the beginning of the operation of the

8 relocation of existing graves.

9 Q. Okay. And what was communicated between you? First of all, who

10 was this person from the 5th Engineers?

11 A. I don't know the name of the person, but I was told from the 5th

12 Engineering Battalion that I had to give them 500.000 litres of fuel so

13 that they could start the work.

14 Q. All right. Do you have any information that would indicate the

15 command of the Zvornik Brigade was aware of this reburial operation?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what is that?

18 A. First, that Popovic, chief of security, and Drago, they had

19 arrived from the room normally used by the commander and chief of

20 security; this was the first piece of information that I got. And then

21 the second one was that the commander of the Zvornik Brigade,

22 Vinko Pandurevic, was notified of the relocation operation, and that the

23 people who participated in this work were eventually given three days off

24 and three sacks of washing powder.

25 Q. Well, how do you know --

Page 6659

1 A. Two bags of 1 kilo each -- 3 kilos each.

2 Q. How do you know that the people who were involved in this were

3 given days off and washing powder?

4 A. Pandurevic, the brigade commander, told me that he would say this

5 to the commanders of the units who had taken part in the work, and he told

6 this to Sretan Milosevic, the logistics officer. That is, he told him

7 that this washing powder should be given to them so that they could wash

8 the clothes that they had worn during the work.

9 Q. So Mr. Pandurevic told this to you directly?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And was Milosevic in the room as well?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And aside from the days off and the washing powder, how do you

14 know that Pandurevic was informed of it, the murder -- the reburial

15 operation?

16 A. Because after it was completed, I notified him of that fact. And

17 Popovic and Drago Nikolic had come from there, from those rooms before me.

18 Q. Okay, you say that you notified Pandurevic of what?

19 A. After the completion of the operation for the relocation of the

20 mass graves.

21 Q. Was this done personally or over some communication means?

22 A. Personally.

23 Q. One last question. Your communication with Mr. Jokic regarding

24 how much fuel was used with -- for the machines, was that done in person

25 or over some communication means?

Page 6660

1 A. In person.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. I don't have any further questions,

3 Mr. President.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think it's time for the break. We are about 2

5 minutes past the time. And tomorrow afternoon, we'll continue with the

6 cross-examination.

7 And, Witness, I'm afraid you have to stay here for another day, so

8 you have to remember that you're still under oath during that period, so

9 do not talk to anybody about your testimony and do not let anybody talk to

10 you. Do you understand that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Mr. President. I have one more

14 exhibit, which we can do tomorrow. It will just take, hopefully, a

15 minute. I just noticed I forgot it, but it will need to be in private

16 session.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think there's no problem to give him 1 minute.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour. Far be it from me to deny him

19 that 1 minute he would need to wrap it up. He can have 2, in fact.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you for your generosity.

21 Well, the hearing for today is adjourned. We'll resume tomorrow

22 afternoon.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

24 at 7.04 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

25 the 27th day of January, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.