Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6661

1 Tuesday, 27 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I have -- if we could

17 go into private session for this.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6662

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Yes. Witness, at some point after the 16th of July and the

23 incidents at Pilica, did Lieutenant Colonel Popovic actually tell you what

24 units were able to assist him in the operation around Pilica?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6663

1 About how many days after the 16th did he tell you this

2 information?

3 A. About five to six days after.

4 Q. And what did he tell you?

5 A. He told me that during the operation in which he was personally

6 present, that he was assisted by the units of the Main Staff, that is,

7 Pelemis's unit and units from Bijeljina.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, any cross-examination?

11 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good

13 afternoon. I think we're not in private session any longer, are we?

14 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't think so.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Good.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

17 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

18 A. Good afternoon.

19 Q. First I would like to pose some very direct questions with respect

20 to Colonel Blagojevic of the Bratunac Brigade. It's my understanding from

21 reading all of your statements and listening to your testimony, it is your

22 belief and understanding that at no time did Colonel Blagojevic, to your

23 knowledge, send any men, either to Orahovac, Branjevo Military Farm, or

24 Pilica, to participate in any of the killing operations of which you were

25 participating in, either directly or indirectly. Is that correct?

Page 6664

1 A. As far as Orahovac and Branjevo are concerned, I don't have any

2 information that people from that particular unit had been sent.

3 Q. And what about Pilica?

4 A. The area of Pilica is part of Branjevo.

5 Q. Okay. And as we know now, after Popovic was through executing the

6 prisoners in Branjevo Farm, later on that afternoon on -- I believe it was

7 July 16th, 1995, he then went to Pilica where he proceeded to execute the

8 remainder batch of prisoners that he had there. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. Now, we do know, we do know with some certainty that

11 members from the Bratunac Brigade were sent to assist the Zvornik Brigade

12 on July 15th and on July 16th. Correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It's my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the

15 soldiers that came from the Bratunac Brigade came in two different shifts,

16 were on two different times. And on both times they came in order to

17 assist the very heavy fighting that was going on in the area of Batkovice

18 [sic]. Correct?

19 A. The area of Baljkovice.

20 Q. I apologise. And that is where the Zvornik Brigade, as I

21 understand, under the command of -- of acting command Obrenovic, and later

22 on with -- when Pandurevic came when the Zvornik Brigade was actually

23 taking some very heavy losses from the Muslim fighters as they were trying

24 to make their way to Tuzla. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6665

1 Q. And in fact yesterday you indicated that on one of the intercepts

2 where there is the description of the situation was horrible, the

3 reference you indicated was to the situation on the front line where the

4 Zvornik Brigade was taking very heavy losses from the Muslim fighters, who

5 had been on the run for several days and were trying to fight their way to

6 Tuzla. Correct?

7 A. This referred to Baljkovice where Muslim forces had suffered

8 severe losses and chaos reigned in the area, which was also indicated in

9 the report of Mr. Popovic.

10 Q. Correct. And yesterday you were able to assist with the

11 interpretation of one particular intercept, an intercept that has been

12 played here with some regularity and with some prominence, I might add,

13 and I'm referring to Exhibit P257/A. In that particular intercept, sir,

14 you were asked to give your opinion with respect to what was being said as

15 to whether some men had arrived from Colonel Blagojevic. Do you recall

16 being asked that question, sir?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could just briefly correct the record. The

19 intercept has not been played. I think that was just a mischoice of

20 words. I don't want to leave the impression that there is an audio

21 intercept.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: I indicated that it played a prominence in this

24 courtroom, not that it was played in the courtroom. But it has been --

25 and thank you, Madam Usher, for assisting.

Page 6666

1 Q. That particular intercept that I was referring to, and again it

2 has marked for identification purposes as P257/A, that was the intercept

3 that was shown to you, sir, was it not, with respect to references being

4 made by Lieutenant Colonel Popovic with respect to men arriving from

5 Blagojevic. Do you recall that particular intercept, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And I believe you've testified yesterday, as you have told the

8 Prosecutor in the past, that that intercept is -- the inquiry that is

9 being made by Popovic or by the person inquiring of Popovic was with

10 respect to reinforcements that were supposed to arrive from the Bratunac

11 Brigade and deployed to Baljkovice. Correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 Now, prior to coming here yesterday, and in fact prior to Sunday,

15 in all your various encounters with the Office of the Prosecution you

16 never indicated that on the morning of the 16th at approximately - and the

17 time varies - (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 nowhere prior to Sunday, sir, and yesterday, sir, have you ever indicated

20 that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic asked you to contact the Bratunac Brigade

21 for reinforcements for any killing operation. Is that not a fact?

22 A. I stated this yesterday.

23 Q. Okay. And in fact the first time that you stated it was Sunday in

24 the afternoon, while you were being briefed. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6667

1 Q. At that point while you were being briefed, since it was not a

2 tape recorded briefing, and given the importance and the uniqueness of the

3 information that you were providing at that time, the Office of the

4 Prosecution requested that you give a statement with respect to that

5 particular information. Correct?

6 A. I gave that information.

7 Q. That was on Sunday that you gave it, January 25th, 2004. Correct?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. And it was during that time for the first time that you mentioned

10 anything about being asked by Popovic to contact the Bratunac Brigade in

11 order to get assistance for the killing operation. Correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And, in fact, during that conversation that you had on Sunday,

14 that was the 25th of January, 2004, you also indicated that later on in

15 the day there was a second communication with the Bratunac Brigade, that

16 one being to see whether the reinforcements for the Baljkovice assistance

17 was on its way. Is that not a fact?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now, on Sunday when you brought this matter up, that is two

20 days ago on the 25th of January, 2004, you indicated that when you

21 contacted the Bratunac Brigade, you informed them that it was for the

22 purpose of this killing operation that was going on. Correct?

23 A. Please, I'm afraid I have not understood your question.

24 Q. Okay. Let me go a little slower then, sir. When you met with

25 them on -- when you met with the Prosecutor on the 25th of January, 2004,

Page 6668

1 you indicated that when you placed that phone call to Badem, that is the

2 Bratunac Brigade command post in Bratunac, and you spoke with the duty

3 officer, that you informed him of the purpose, that is, that you told him

4 that it was for the purpose of assisting Popovic in the killing operation.

5 Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. This conversation took place in the morning with the duty

7 officer, and it concerned the assistance to be provided to Popovic for the

8 purposes of the execution operation in the area of Pilica and Branjevo.

9 Q. Okay. And then yesterday you indicated some additional

10 information, again rather new, when you were asked the question whether

11 you put it in some coded terms, and the answer to that question was yes.

12 Do you recall that?

13 A. I do, but still I don't understand your question.

14 Q. Okay. My question, sir, is: Yesterday for the very first time

15 you indicated that this time when you called the Bratunac Brigade, you had

16 told them in an indirect manner, as opposed to a direct manner, whether

17 they could provide assistance for what was going on with respect to

18 Popovic's mission, so to speak.

19 A. The request was addressed to them directly by telephone, and they

20 were also told why it was necessary for this assistance to be provided,

21 for those men to be sent.

22 Q. Okay. And you indicated yesterday for the first time that you put

23 it in coded words or coded terms, as opposed to telling them directly on a

24 line: "We need you. We need some men in order to kill some Muslims in

25 Branjevo Farm or in Pilica." Correct?

Page 6669

1 A. Nothing coded could have been conveyed by telephone.

2 Q. All right. Maybe it's my -- I apologise for not being clear. I'm

3 not suggesting that you were sending a coded message, but you were

4 speaking in a way that was an indirect way, a coded way, so that you could

5 alarm them of the true nature of the request?

6 A. Yes. I said that, but once again I did not fully understand your

7 previous question.

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not referring to your

15 question. I was actually referring to the question that had been put to

16 me by the Prosecutor yesterday.


18 Q. Very well. Was there any reason why, assuming that this

19 conversation took place, was there any reason why you did not mention this

20 earlier to the Prosecutor, that is, that you had this conversation with

21 the duty officer of the Bratunac Brigade on the morning of the 16th --

22 July 16th, 1995. What was the reason?

23 A. This information concerns myself and my direct involvement in

24 this.

25 Q. All right. I understand that. But my question is: Why, sir,

Page 6670

1 have you waited until the night before you're about to testify to claim

2 that you had this conversation? Why not raise it days, weeks, or months

3 earlier?

4 A. I had decided to tell the whole truth, the whole truth about an

5 incident in which I had personally participated.

6 Q. All right. Well, let's talk about how you got to be -- how you

7 got to that position, that is, the position where you wanted to tell the

8 whole truth. Initially, you had been contacted by the Office of the

9 Prosecution on August 14th, 2002. Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At that time you were in the United States and you were being

12 interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, otherwise known as the

13 FBI. True?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you had a meeting on the -- August 18th, a few days later,

16 where the Prosecutor requested whether you would be willing to give them

17 an interview, and you indicated that you would. Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I believe it was at that meeting sometime around -- where you

20 met on the 19th and 20th of August, 2002, and at that point in time you

21 had, in fact, indicated to the Office of the Prosecution that you were

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. Subsequent to that, there was a telephone conversation. I believe

25 it was November 15th, 2002, where again the Prosecution expressed their

Page 6671

1 desire to meet and to get a statement from you. Right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then in March 30th, 2003, you were approached, and you -- and

4 the Office of the Prosecution suggested, or inquired I should say, that

5 would be the better term, inquired whether you wished to consider being a

6 witness in the witness protection programme. Correct? Is that correct?

7 That was back on March 30th, 2003.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I take it at that point in time they explained to you to some

10 detail, perhaps not in the greatest of detail but in some detail, what it

11 all entailed, that is, being in the witness protection programme, you and

12 your family. Correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On the following day, on March 31st, 2003, you were arrested by

15 the FBI, given that you had provided false information in order to obtain

16 a visa to live, you and your family, in the United States. Correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And at some point, as I know the procedure and I see from the

19 documents, you were presented or you were offered a federal public

20 defender, someone to represent you, for free, correct, free of charge?

21 A. Yes, but I did pay.

22 Q. All those were court costs; I understand that. But it was

23 explained to you at that point -- the charges were explained to you, and

24 at some point you entered a plea of guilty to two of the counts on the

25 indictment. Correct?

Page 6672

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you were not given a sentence, but instead according to the

3 judgement that we have, you were remanded to the custody of the

4 Immigration and Naturalisation Office in the United States, pending your

5 deportation. Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So, in other words, when Mr. McCloskey asked you yesterday whether

8 you had spent any time in gaol, in fact you were there in detention

9 waiting to be deported, as opposed to serving a sentence resulting from

10 your change of plea to guilty on two charges?

11 A. I was not in detention; I was in a prison facility.

12 Q. All right. All right. We can -- you were in a prison facility

13 not serving a sentence but waiting when you and your family would be

14 deported from the United States back to Bosnia and Herzegovina. Correct?

15 A. From the trial, I was handed over to the immigration.

16 Q. Right. Okay. And it was right upon that point in time, in fact

17 the date -- the day that you pled guilty, that you met a representative

18 from the Office of the Prosecution, Ms. Davis, and it was that day or the

19 following day, on July 10th, 2003, that you began some other discussions

20 with respect to the witness protection programme. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And Ms. Davis of the Office of the Prosecution was very clear in

23 expressing to you that no immunity would be provided to you, immunity from

24 being prosecuted --

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 6673

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not sure what counsel is referring to, but

2 Ms. Anne Davis of the Office of the Prosecutor had no involvement in this

3 as far as I can recall --

4 JUDGE LIU: Maybe there's another Davis.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: There could be. But I'm referring to their

6 information reports.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: There may have been a lawyer named that, but

8 I'm -- perhaps someone from the witness protection programme.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may for one second, Your Honour, I might be

10 able to assist. Davis is a common name; I'll concede to that point.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My lawyer, whose name is David,

12 spoke to me.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. Well, if that's so -- well, in any

14 event, it doesn't matter.

15 Q. You were explained -- in any event, you were explained that you

16 were not being provided with immunity, but if you continued to cooperate

17 with the OTP, the OTP would look after you and your family. Correct?

18 A. A promise was made that myself and my family would be taken care

19 of, but I never received any promise related in any way to my

20 responsibility.

21 Q. Right. Correct. But the caveat, the -- I'm trying to find the

22 right word to make sure that we understand each other. The responsibility

23 was placed on your shoulders that you would be truthful in your

24 cooperation with the Office of the Prosecution. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6674

1 Q. In other words, they were only willing to assist you to the extent

2 that you were willing to be truthful and honest with respect to your

3 involvement and your knowledge regarding the events in Orahovac, Branjevo

4 Farm, Pilica, and any other matters that you may -- you had knowledge of

5 regarding the Srebrenica incidents. Correct?

6 A. They wanted to help me in general terms.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether she

8 understood the answer correctly.


10 Q. When you say they wanted to help you in general terms, well they

11 wanted you to help them; and in return, they would help you. It was a

12 two-way street. Correct?

13 A. I didn't have to help them in any way. I had already given them

14 my statement in America, with certain amendments, certain things that I

15 had left out at that time. And I have already explained why I did so.

16 Q. But at this point in time, we haven't left the United States.

17 We're still back on July 10th, between July 10th and July 24th, 2003, when

18 you are waiting to see whether you and your family would be accepted into

19 the witness protection programme. And so I want to make clear that I

20 understand the situation as it were back then. You understood that in

21 return for your truthfulness, they were going to try to secure witness

22 protection status for you and your family. Correct?

23 A. They wanted to help me because of the cooperation that I had

24 provided them until that time. And I also personally expressed my

25 willingness to continue the same cooperation.

Page 6675

1 Q. All right. And on July 24th, 2003, you were indeed informed by

2 representatives of the Office of the Prosecution, or the witness

3 protection programme that's provided by the Tribunal, that you and your

4 family had been accepted into the witness protection programme. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that -- and later on, I believe it was October 27, 2003, you

7 were informed that you would be deported back to Bosnia and Herzegovina

8 before you could be relocated to a third country, correct, you and your

9 family? Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, during this period of time you were assisting the Office of

12 the Prosecution, were you not?

13 A. I don't know which period you're referring to. Could you please

14 specify.

15 Q. Well, up until let's say the end of October 2003, you had been

16 assisting them, giving them information. Correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And after that period, on November 10th, 2003, you were shown some

19 documents by the Office of the Prosecution, including the green-coloured

20 notebook. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the reason for giving you this green-coloured notebook was to

23 see whether you could recognise your handwriting and whether you could

24 assist the Office of the Prosecution in interpreting some of the notes

25 that were in that notebook. Right?

Page 6676

1 A. The reason was for me to identify the book and to remind myself of

2 my personal participation in all those events that were noted down in that

3 book, which was used as evidence.

4 Q. Now, before being shown this book, you were not aware that the

5 Office of the Prosecution had this book, had this piece of evidence in

6 their possession. Correct?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And, in fact, because you did not know that they had this

9 information in their possession with -- which in part implicated you

10 specifically, you were giving false versions or false information to the

11 Prosecution with respect to your participation in the events of the 14th,

12 15th, 16th of July, 1995. Correct?

13 A. Could you please repeat your question.

14 Q. All right. Prior to being shown this notebook on November 10th,

15 2003, you were not aware that the Prosecutor had this notebook in his --

16 in its possession. Correct?

17 A. Before November -- what date?

18 Q. November 10, 2003.

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. And prior to this date, you had given the Prosecution

21 certain versions of your participation of the events. Correct?

22 A. I don't know what versions you're referring to.

23 Q. Well, I'm referring to false versions, as opposed to truthful

24 versions. Does that help your recollection?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6677

1 Q. Okay. Well, now that your recollection has been refreshed, would

2 you agree with me that prior to seeing that notebook, you had been giving

3 false information to the Office of the Prosecution?

4 A. No -- partially.

5 Q. All right. Thank you for correcting me. I'm not suggesting that

6 you were -- your entire version or entire story was false, but nonetheless

7 you would agree with me that with respect to your involvement, one, there

8 was false information. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And also, aside from false information, there was information that

11 you withheld?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, once you saw that notebook, I would suspect that upon seeing

14 your own handwriting and having your memory refreshed, you would have been

15 armed and prepared to give the Office of the Prosecution a truthful and

16 honest and complete account of your involvement. Correct?

17 A. Could you please repeat your question.

18 Q. Okay. One of the reasons the Prosecutor gave you that book was to

19 refresh your memory. Right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Because you had indicated that you needed, you know, certain facts

22 you couldn't recall. Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Upon opening that notebook, you recognised your own handwriting.

25 Correct?

Page 6678

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you also recognised that this notebook placed you right in the

3 centre of the events of July 16, 1995. Correct?

4 A. Not only the book itself, but in fact my personal involvement.

5 Q. Right. But I'm talking about the book itself. Once the

6 Prosecutor showed it to you and once you read your handwriting and once

7 you saw your notations, there was no escaping your past. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Incidentally, if we were to go into this notebook and

10 check on July 16, 1995, and check your handwriting when you were the duty

11 officer, is it not a fact, sir, that we would not find any notations made

12 by you that you had been instructed by Colonel Popovic, Lieutenant Colonel

13 Popovic, to contact Badem, the Bratunac Brigade, in order to request

14 assistance. We wouldn't find any notations, would we?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. But we do find, we do find - and I underscore that - notes

17 that certainly are incriminating to you. Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, on December 3rd, 2003, you met with the Office of the

20 Prosecution, and if memory serves me correct, Mr. McCloskey, the

21 Prosecutor, was there. And in case you don't recall what occurred on that

22 day, that is the date when Mr. McCloskey expressed some disappointment in

23 you and indicated that he believed that you had not been telling the

24 truth. Do you recall that day?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6679

1 Q. And, in fact, to his credit, Mr. McCloskey suggested -- in fact,

2 he indicated that he would be contacting the Registrar to ensure that you

3 would have a lawyer representing you in order to protect your rights. Do

4 you recall that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, if we could stop right here for one second and focus on what

7 is happening at the family front, your family front. This is the same

8 period of time, is it not, sir, when the Office of the Prosecution,

9 through its efforts with the Tribunal, have arranged for you and your

10 family to be in the witness protection programme. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You have already been told that arrangements will be made for you

13 and your family to go to a third country. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in spite of that good will on the part of the Office of the

16 Prosecution, in spite of them having met their part of the bargain, you

17 were continuing to provide them with either false and/or incomplete

18 information. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you indicate -- yesterday you indicated that you are not

21 getting anything out of this arrangement that you have the Office of the

22 Prosecution. Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In other words, they have not promised that they will not indict

25 you, as they should?

Page 6680

1 A. They did not promise that.

2 Q. Okay. But your family is, in fact, getting a benefit, are they

3 not, by being relocated to a third country. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And should you get indicted and should you be sentenced to a

6 prison term, would being in the witness protection programme provide

7 assistance to your family during the period that you are serving your

8 sentence?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So if we look at it in those terms, you are, in fact, getting some

11 sort of benefit, or at least your family is. Correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, after that encounter with Mr. McCloskey on December 3, 2003,

14 you gave another -- you had an opportunity to meet with a very fine

15 lawyer, if I may say so, a very experienced lawyer, at least with respect

16 to this particular Tribunal, Mr. O'Sullivan. Correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I take it Mr. O'Sullivan was able to answer all of your

19 questions. Correct?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Well, was he able to answer all of your legal questions; in

22 other words, solve any legal dilemmas you might have with respect to your

23 status?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour --

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 6681

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: These are general questions related to legal

2 consultations with one's lawyer is sacred ground.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think the communication between

4 him and his counsel should be in secret.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: I am not suggesting that it shouldn't be, Your

6 Honour. I'm not delving into it. And as a Defence lawyer, I know that

7 the sanctity of the ground that I'm stepping on. But I'll move on.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Please move on.


10 JUDGE LIU: It's very difficult for this person to answer this

11 question.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. And I take the Prosecutor's objection and

13 it's well-founded, Your Honour.

14 Q. At some point on January 21, 2004, you agreed to meet with the

15 Office of the Prosecution. Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that was a, that was a -- you were not compelled at that

18 point, as with in any other time, past or future, you were not compelled

19 to meet with the Office of the Prosecution. You were not forced?

20 A. Never.

21 Q. Right. In other words, you were doing that voluntarily. Correct?

22 A. Pursuant to the request, yes.

23 Q. Right. But each and every time the Office of the Prosecution - at

24 least what I've been able to glean from the documents - were very careful

25 to make sure that you understood your fundamental rights, one being the

Page 6682

1 right to remain silent?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And on January 21st, you gave another interview. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And, in fact, from what I understand from the Prosecution, that

6 was the interview where apparently part of the tape was not functioning,

7 one of the sides of the tape apparently wasn't functioning. So we only

8 have one portion of that interview. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And so by this point in time, January 21st, 2004, which is only

11 last week, this is the very first time when apparently you are willing to

12 tell the Office of the Prosecution your entire involvement in this affair.

13 Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. For instance, we know by now, as a result of that particular

16 interview, that on the -- after -- on the 14th, 13th and 14th of July,

17 1995, you were one of the main organisers of the executions that took

18 place in Orahovac. Correct?

19 A. What do you mean? Could you please repeat the question. What do

20 you mean when you say "the main organiser"?

21 Q. Not that you were one. You were one of the main organisers, not

22 the main. At the top we have Beara, then Popovic, then Nikolic, but you

23 were the detail person on the ground, were you not, to organise the

24 orderly process of the executions?

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 6683

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. I think there are people above

2 Mr. Beara, so that's a misstatement of the evidence, regarding the

3 organising of this. I think the facts are pretty clear that Mr. Mladic

4 had a role in this.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may be heard for a second, and I

6 think I have been very clear with respect to General Mladic's involvement.

7 But this gentleman here has never mentioned Mladic, so I don't want to go

8 that far. I'm not denying that, but he's indicated that Nikolic at one

9 point told him -- or he's indicated that Beara was instructing Nikolic,

10 words to that effect. We know that Popovic was on the ground. So that's

11 why the omission. So with that qualification, and I accept

12 Mr. McCloskey's assertion that General Mladic was involved and is perhaps

13 responsible for these events. With that qualification, I want to make

14 sure that we're clear on this point.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe the phrase "organiser" is not a proper

16 one.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I will --

18 JUDGE LIU: You know, Mladic is in the high, top position, but the

19 witness himself, I don't think --

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I will rephrase, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I will rephrase.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.


25 Q. At one point in time, sir, on the 14th and 15th, were you not

Page 6684

1 asked to -- well, organise the orderly process of execution. Correct?

2 You along with Jasikovac, the chief of police.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. And I believe it was the chief of police that had

5 requested assistance in cutting the ribbons in order to blindfold the

6 prisoners. Correct?

7 A. The commander of the military police.

8 Q. The commander of the military police. Thank you for correcting

9 me. And you -- your -- one of your functions was to organise the people,

10 the prisoners, so they could get loaded onto the buses and so that the

11 executions could take place in an orderly and expeditious fashion.

12 Correct?

13 A. To organise the VRS members, to take the men out of the gym, and

14 to put them onto motor vehicles, and to dispatch the vehicles to the

15 execution sites.

16 Q. Correct. And, in fact, it was because of your organisational

17 skills and experience in this process that Popovic, on the 16th, requested

18 that you go to Branjevo Farm to assist there. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. But on that day, you were the designated duty officer, and so that

21 is why Drago Nikolic insisted that you remain behind. Correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. Well, were you not the duty officer that day, the

24 designated duty officer that day, yes or no?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. I believe that's a contradictory

Page 6685

1 two-part question. I think there's a difference between the duty officer

2 of that day and the designated duty officer.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well --

4 MR. KARNAVAS: I will go about it, Your Honour.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's a very important distinction, Your Honour.

6 They had a list.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: That's what I'm trying to get at, Your Honour. And

8 as I understand from reading the testimony of his previous statements,

9 he's indicated that he was on the list for that day. That's what -- I'm

10 trying to get that.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's fine. I have no objection to that simple

12 question. It's the two-part question that is problematic.

13 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could split your question one by one.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Perhaps we could -- not to nail this point

15 to take our -- I guess I can keep going.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We have 15 minutes.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right.

18 Q. You were designated -- it was your turn on that day to be the duty

19 officer. Correct?

20 A. No.

21 Q. All right. So you were not on the list to be the duty officer?

22 A. No.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6686

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 Q. All right. In other words, the acting commander at the time would

10 have made that decision. Since Pandurevic was gone, that would have been

11 Obrenovic or his designated representative who had made that decision as

12 to who would fill in and serve out that day as duty officer. Correct?

13 A. Or the senior duty operations officer who was there.

14 Q. All right. And that's why -- that's one of the reasons why Drago

15 Nikolic couldn't accommodate Popovic, because it was not up to him, that

16 is, Drago Nikolic, to excuse you from your functions as a duty officer for

17 that particular day. Correct?

18 A. Drago did not relieve me of my duty on that day.

19 Q. He could not relieve you; that's my whole point. It was not

20 within his powers to relieve you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And so when you had that exchange with Mr. McCloskey yesterday

23 whether Drago Nikolic was giving an order to Popa, as you put it, Popovic,

24 it wasn't that he was giving him an order that you could not go, it's just

25 that he was explaining the situation that you had to be left behind as the

Page 6687

1 duty officer. Correct?

2 A. No. I had to stay to take care of the obligations that I have at

3 the security branch, that was the first thought that I had.

4 Q. All right. All right. We won't -- we'll get into this in another

5 way.

6 Now, on -- when you first met with the Prosecutor, you never told

7 them about your involvement at all on the 14th and 15th, that is, that you

8 stayed behind and that you assisted in the executions, did you?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a misstatement of the evidence. I -- it

12 can be done, I think, clearer and it will make sense. He did tell us

13 about the 14th. Partially.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: That's my whole point. Half a truth is half a lie,

15 Your Honour. That's what I'm trying to get at. I'll go about it another

16 way.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'll go about it another way.

19 Q. When you first met with the Office of the Prosecution, you told

20 them that at some point when the executions were about to begin or had

21 just begun, you left on the 14th. Correct?

22 A. Yes. I said after the executions, after three vehicles had passed

23 I left.

24 Q. All right. And you told them -- in fact, you told them that the

25 reason you wanted to leave and the reason that you were asked to leave was

Page 6688

1 because you didn't want to be there, that was one reason; and the second

2 reason was that your family, in the midst of all this madness and Zvornik

3 being attacked and everything, was on its way for a vacation at the

4 seaside?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In fact, sir, during those executions, you never once expressed an

7 unwillingness, an unwillingness, to participate in them, did you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, on the morning of the 16th, as I recall, you wake up sometime

10 around 6.00 o'clock, or perhaps even earlier, 5.30. Correct? This is

11 while you are in Zvornik at the command post.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you indicate there -- you've indicated to the Prosecution that

14 at some time after that, that you see Popovic. Correct?

15 A. Drago and Popovic.

16 Q. All right. It's my understanding that you're designated the duty

17 officer, and it's after that that you claim for the first time on the 25th

18 of January that Popovic asked you to contact the Bratunac Brigade.

19 Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, getting back to where we started, when I asked you: Why did

22 you wait until the evening or the afternoon of January 25th, 2004, the

23 night before you're supposed to testify, how is it that you waited that

24 long to say, Oh, yes, by the way, I was asked to have this conversation --

25 to have this contact with the Bratunac Brigade, how is it that you waited

Page 6689

1 that long, and why is it that you didn't bring it up on January 21st, when

2 you did, in fact, incriminate yourself by placing yourself right in the

3 executions on the 14th and 15th as well as your participation in the 16th

4 and thereafter?

5 A. Based on the discussions regarding the participation of the units

6 and the executions in the area of Pilica and Rocevic on that day, that is,

7 which particular units had taken part in it and where the request for

8 assistance for carrying out this particular assignment was sent.

9 Q. All right. So if I understand -- I'm going to try and see if I

10 can interpret your answer. Are you suggesting, sir, that with all your

11 conversations with the Prosecution and them showing you documents, it

12 triggered some thought, some memory, that was dormant, hidden in your

13 memory cells, and as a result that's why on Sunday, the night before you

14 testified, you realise that these -- that you had been instructed to make

15 these calls?

16 A. I had not been instructed. My memory was refreshed and concerning

17 the request and -- of -- and the participation of the units which were

18 present, and also the units that took part but whom I didn't know were

19 present. That's how I got this information.

20 Q. Well, with respect to the refreshing of your memory, we know, do

21 we not, that once when your memory was refreshed on November 10th, 2003,

22 you proceeded to provide false information to the Prosecutor. Correct?

23 We've established that, have we not?

24 A. November what -- the 10th? Yes.

25 Q. So when the Prosecutor was attempting to refresh your memory and

Page 6690

1 assist you with documents, you provided false and incorrect information

2 nonetheless. Correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you met -- then you met with your lawyer and you gave an

5 interview, and I would suspect, given that you had more time to consider

6 your predicament, more time to think of the family, which obviously you

7 want to protect, you gave an interview on January 21st with a refreshed

8 memory. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that's -- at that point in time is when you tell us that you

11 were a participant. But how is it that with that refreshed memory on

12 January 21st, you omit stating that Popovic instructed you to contact the

13 Bratunac Brigade on the 16th of July, and that you had this alleged

14 conversation where you told them: "We need men for the killing

15 operation." How is it that you could forget such a thing with this

16 refreshed memory?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: The question can be "omit" or "forget", but the

19 two are contradictory. So choose one, but you can't ask him the same

20 contradictory question; it's impossible to answer. I have no problem with

21 either question --

22 JUDGE LIU: But the main idea is there, you know.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, I --


25 Q. How is it, sir?

Page 6691

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour --


3 MR. McCLOSKEY: We need a clear question for the witness to be

4 able to answer. How is it, sir? This is not a clear question.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I thought I won the objection, maybe I was

6 wrong, and I was relying -- so if the objection was sustained, I just went

7 and I just -- that was sort of a booster to the witness. If the objection

8 was --

9 JUDGE LIU: Well --

10 MR. KARNAVAS: If the objection was overruled, if the objection

11 was sustained, I'll rephrase the question, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, generally speaking, I have no problem with your

13 question, Mr. Karnavas. But in order for the witness to understand you

14 better, you may split the question or choose one to ask your question,

15 just to facilitate. And after this question is answered, we'll have the

16 break.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right. Okay.

18 Q. How is it, sir, that after having your memory refreshed, you

19 omitted to state to the Prosecutor on tape that Popovic on the morning of

20 the 16th had instructed you to contact the Bratunac Brigade and to ask for

21 assistance for the killing operation?

22 A. I have already stated that the conversation was about the

23 participation of the units in this operation and which particular units

24 took part. The units that were requested to take part in the operation on

25 that day, it's impossible for someone to say everything. My memory was

Page 6692

1 being refreshed as we talked about the events that had taken place.

2 Q. Just one last - not a question to answer now - but a thought where

3 we'll pick up. Maybe during the break you can think of what documents in

4 particular refreshed your memory with respect to this particular

5 conversation. Because thus far, I dare say, at least in my disclosure

6 material, I have no documents that would verify that you had this

7 conversation.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour.


10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm going to object to -- first of all, this is an

11 argumentative comment designed to challenge the witness's credibility to

12 be left on a break. That's no sense -- it doesn't get us anywhere, that

13 he be argumentative like this. And it should be -- it's unnecessary. And

14 to leave a witness on the break with this kind of air is inappropriate.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I see no problem for this kind of practice. I

16 think the witness will answer if there's any documents or not. If not,

17 it's all right. Whatever the answer is, we'll take it. There's no

18 problem about that.

19 Well, I think it's time for a break, and we'll resume at 4.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, before you start, I think I have

23 to remind you that this witness is a protected witness. So when you ask

24 some questions, especially of some specific positions and locations,

25 please be careful. Yes, you may proceed.

Page 6693

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Sir, prior to the break, I asked you if you could provide us with

3 any specific documents that you might have referred to refresh your

4 recollection that would -- that helped you come up with this information,

5 that is, that on the morning of the 16th of July, 1995, you did in fact

6 contact the Bratunac Brigade, spoke with the duty officer, and left a

7 message requesting for assistance for the killing operations. Could you

8 please tell us what specific documents you used to refresh your

9 recollection.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have any specific documents

12 in connection with this issue; however, based on the deployment of the

13 units which took part in the operation and based on the contacts that I

14 had with Popovic concerning the overall operation and also on the basis of

15 the assistance which had to be sent, either to Baljkovice and Branjevo.


17 Q. Sir, it is a fact, is it not, that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic

18 never indicated to you that members of the Bratunac Brigade had

19 participated in any of the executions that were taking place in Pilica or

20 in Branjevo Farm on July 16th, 1995?

21 A. No, he didn't.

22 Q. Okay. He did, however, mention, did he not, certain units that he

23 believed were the participants and were assisting him in that killing

24 operation. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6694

1 Q. And that unit was the, I believe, the 10th Sabotage Detachment

2 from Bijeljina. Correct?

3 A. Yes. Actually, I don't know where exactly they were from.

4 Q. Okay. But you do know that they are attached to or part of the

5 Main Staff. Were you aware of that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. And I believe I've seen somewhere where it was brought

8 to your attention about the Panteri unit. Did Mr. -- did Lieutenant

9 Colonel Popovic ever mention them at all, if you recall?

10 A. No, not under the name of Panteri.

11 Q. Okay. Now, did you, sir, at any point in time make any reference

12 or invoke, I should say, the name of Colonel Blagojevic while you were

13 being proofed on Sunday, January 25, 2004?

14 A. The unit from Bratunac, yes.

15 Q. Okay. But did you actually state -- did you actually use his

16 name? That's what my question is.

17 A. I believe I did.

18 Q. Okay. But you never had any contact with Colonel Blagojevic, did

19 you?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You never spoke to him?

22 A. You mean in connection with the task of the 15th and the 16th?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. No. No.

25 Q. All right. In fact, you never spoke to him with respect to any

Page 6695

1 tasks that you were involved with respect to killing Muslim prisoners.

2 Correct?

3 A. No, I didn't.

4 Q. All right. Now, if we could go back to the 14th and sort of try

5 to cover some points over there, on that date. As I understand it from

6 your testimony, sometime on July 14th you were asked to go to Bratunac to

7 meet with Momir Nikolic in order to turn over some humanitarian aid. I

8 believe that -- I apologise, that was the 13th. 13th of July. Correct?

9 A. Yes, to turn over the convoy to the security organ.

10 Q. Right. Now, that convoy was a Russian convoy, was it not, of

11 humanitarian aid?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And I believe the battalion commander, the Russian battalion

14 commander, was there along with you in that convoy. Correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was there any particular reason why they said: "Go and meet

17 Momir Nikolic," if you recall?

18 A. It was not said that I should go and meet with Momir Nikolic.

19 Q. All right. Was it said that you should just go to the Bratunac

20 Brigade? I mean ...

21 A. Yes, to the security branch to turn over the convoy.

22 Q. Okay. And so that's why when you got to Bratunac and you went to

23 the headquarters, you sought out Momir Nikolic, who was the head of

24 security and intelligence for the Bratunac Brigade. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6696

1 Q. You indicated when you got there you learned that he wasn't there,

2 and so you went off to Potocari, which is only approximately five

3 kilometres away. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And there you saw Momir Nikolic with whom you were acquainted, you

6 knew of him, you knew what he looked like. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As I understand your testimony and -- from yesterday and from

9 before, you saw him walking around, and I believe yesterday you said that

10 he was talking at some point. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And at that point you informed him that you had this humanitarian

13 convoy with you, and you asked him what to do with it. Correct?

14 A. I didn't inform him of that at that moment, while he was talking.

15 I informed him on the occasion of our first encounter, as soon as I

16 entered Potocari.

17 Q. Right. That's what I'm talking about. As soon as you met him in

18 Potocari, you spoke with him, and in fact as I recall, you asked him what

19 was going on, who were these people that were there. Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You believed because of the lighting conditions, the setting of

22 the sun, and the terrain that it would have been between 4.00 and 5.00

23 o'clock in the afternoon. Correct?

24 A. Yes, in the afternoon.

25 Q. Well, the timing may be important for other reasons. Was it

Page 6697

1 closer to 5.00? Was it after 5.00? Was it closer to 4.00? Which of it

2 is it?

3 A. It's difficult to tell the exact time.

4 Q. All right. In any event, when you did meet with him, he did not

5 accept the humanitarian aid, but rather directed you back to Bratunac. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. It was not Momir Nikolic who directed me back to Bratunac.

8 Q. Okay. Did he accept the humanitarian aid, yes or no, sir?

9 A. The humanitarian aid was accepted in Bratunac.

10 Q. Okay. Just so that I make sure that I'm clear, before you met

11 with Momir Nikolic, did you drop off the humanitarian aid?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You went to Potocari. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You met with Momir Nikolic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Then you went back to Bratunac with the Russian commander,

18 battalion commander. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that's when you believe you went to the -- what you were told

21 to be the mayor's office. Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it was at that time that you believe the humanitarian aid was

24 unloaded from the convoy. Correct?

25 A. It's not that I believed that. We were working on the

Page 6698

1 organisation of the unloading.

2 Q. So you physically watched the convoy being unloaded? Is that a

3 yes or a no?

4 A. No. No.

5 Q. Hence why I said "believe." Now, as I understand it you were

6 there for approximately two hours or so?

7 A. Yes, more or less.

8 Q. And were you meeting with a military man or a civilian when you

9 were at what you believed to be the mayor's office?

10 A. A civilian.

11 Q. And I take it, as customary as it is, you, the commander of the

12 Russian Battalion, and the mayor probably sat around, had a discussion,

13 perhaps have a few drinks while you were waiting for the convoy to be

14 unloaded. Correct?

15 A. I didn't even wait for the convoy to be unloaded.

16 Q. Okay. But my question was: You were waiting there for two hours,

17 were you not?

18 A. Yes, more or less.

19 Q. And when you were in the mayor's office with the Russian

20 commander, battalion commander, did you have the ceremonial rakija that is

21 normally served as part of the hospitality in that part of the world?

22 A. I don't remember as far as they were concerned, but I myself do

23 not drink alcohol.

24 Q. Okay. And at some point in time, you left and you went back to

25 the Zvornik Brigade headquarters?

Page 6699

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when you got there, Drago Nikolic approached you requesting to

3 know where had you been, because you had the official vehicle that is

4 designated to the security of the Zvornik Brigade. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it was at that time when Drago Nikolic told you that you had

7 to go to Orahovac. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At that point in time, did he tell you that you were being sent

10 off on a murder operation?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you think or suspect that you would be going to a murder

13 operation?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Now, I want to make sure that I understand this.

16 Today your testimony is: Even before you left Zvornik and even though

17 Drago Nikolic did not tell you anything about killing innocent, unarmed,

18 Muslims, you believed that he was sending you to murder them. Correct?

19 Is that your testimony today?

20 A. Could you please repeat your question.

21 Q. Okay. Well, let me go about it in another way. When you gave

22 your deposition in the United States, you had indicated that you thought

23 that the men, the Muslim men, would be executed once you got there and you

24 saw that they were getting off the bus and throwing off -- throwing out

25 everything that they had from their pockets and their hats and what have

Page 6700

1 you, that it was at that point in time that you realise that they were

2 going to be executed.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall making that statement in the United States during

5 the deposition?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: And for the record, less there be any

9 misunderstanding, I'm reading from page 34 and I've just read from

10 lines -- paraphrased from lines 10 to 13. And this would be marked for

11 identification purposes as D109/1.

12 Q. Now, yesterday you indicated a slightly different variation, that

13 when you arrived and you saw the Muslims coming off the bus, you

14 immediately knew that they were going to be executed. Do you recall

15 stating that yesterday?

16 A. I don't.

17 Q. Okay. Today you're telling us that even before leaving Zvornik,

18 you suspected that you were being sent off to where innocent Muslim

19 prisoners were going to be executed?

20 A. That's what I assumed.

21 Q. Okay. So you assumed even before you left Zvornik?

22 A. I assumed that after I left Zvornik.

23 Q. Well, was it on the road as you left Zvornik town and driving

24 along the Drina River that you came with this -- that you had this

25 suspicion or was it when you got there and first saw them or was it when

Page 6701

1 you saw them being asked to empty their pockets and take their hats off?

2 Which of the three versions?

3 A. The departure to Orahovac and the arrival and the accommodation of

4 Muslims.

5 Q. Okay. Incidentally, sir, had you participated, you personally

6 participated in execution of innocent -- well, in Muslim prisoners of war

7 prior to this occasion?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Now, when you got there and you realised that you had --

10 well, you had the suspicion that they were going to be executed, surely

11 you must have voiced some objection to this monstrous deed that you

12 suspected was about to occur.

13 A. I did not say that directly to anyone. I just thought it to

14 myself.

15 Q. All right. And it was sometime later when Drago Nikolic came and

16 Popovic came when you learned explicitly from Nikolic that these innocent

17 people that were sitting there unarmed were going to be executed.

18 Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. May I ask you, during that period of time how many hours had

21 passed?

22 A. In which period?

23 Q. From the moment that you arrived in Orahovac until the moment

24 where Nikolic and Popovic arrive and you learn that they're going to be

25 executed?

Page 6702

1 A. On the 13th in the evening until the early evening hours of

2 the 14th.

3 Q. So we're talking nearly 20 hours or 24 hours, 20 hours that you're

4 there, give or take an hour or two. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And during this 20-hour period, you had this suspicion. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. May I ask: What was going through your mind during that 20-hour

9 period?

10 A. Well, how on earth can I remember that now?

11 Q. All right. Well, did you stop at least for one second, not an

12 hour, not a minute, but one second to think and realise that this was

13 senseless and inhumane?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Having spent that second, did you then spend another second at

16 least thinking that perhaps you should contact your commanding officer,

17 either Pandurevic, who was in the field, or Obrenovic, who was there back

18 in Zvornik as the acting commander?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You did, however, contact, as I understand, the duty officer on

21 the 14th when you suspected that there were -- that this was a security --

22 a security risk to you, to Jasikovac, and to the military police over

23 there, and that perhaps due to the large number of prisoners that were

24 waiting their execution, that you needed more man power for security.

25 Correct?

Page 6703

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, when you contacted the duty officer, at least from what I

3 have read thus far and what I heard yesterday, there is no mention at all

4 that at any point in time you informed the duty officer of what your

5 suspicions were at the time. Correct?

6 A. The duty officer was notified. In fact, the duty operations

7 officer was notified that there were some personnel needs and what needed

8 to be done in order to send the personnel in to assist.

9 Q. The personnel needs that were, as you put it, were for the

10 security, to assist in securing these prisoners of war. Correct?

11 A. To reinforce the security detail, yes.

12 Q. To reinforce the security detail that was there securing prisoners

13 of war. Correct?

14 A. Yes. For the security of the prisoners of war.

15 Q. Now, you did not state anywhere in the past or yesterday that you

16 indicated to the security officer [sic] that what you really needed

17 them -- let me rephrase. That the -- that subsequent to the security,

18 subsequent to securing these prisoners, that they would be executed.

19 A. I didn't say that they would be executed.

20 Q. And, in fact, when you contacted the duty officer, that was prior,

21 before, you had been told by Momir -- by Drago Nikolic that they would be

22 executed. Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You did, however --

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 6704

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I have just

2 realised that in line 18 of the transcript the term "security officer" in

3 fact should have -- it should read the duty officer who was not notified

4 of that, because this is quite clear from the next question. The witness

5 did not inform the duty officer, and not the security officer, as is

6 stated here in line 18. So we are not talking about the security officer,

7 but the duty officer.

8 JUDGE LIU: I think this is a question put forward by

9 Mr. Karnavas.

10 Mr. Karnavas --

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, I agree with Mr. Stojanovic. I must have

12 misspoken. This whole line of questioning deals with his communications

13 with the duty officer at the time. So I'll rephrase it, Your Honour, and

14 re-ask the question.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, do we have to --

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he cleared it up in the question, I

17 don't -- otherwise I would object to --

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's move on.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. All right.

20 Q. Now, as I understand, you did call someone else, aside from the

21 duty officer, did you not, Lazar Ristic?

22 A. Yes. But that was not the duty officer, but the duty operations

23 officer of the brigade.

24 Q. As I understand, he was the deputy commander of the -- what is it?

25 The 4th Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade. Am I correct?

Page 6705

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you indicated that he was nearby and that is the reason why

3 you reached out to him for assistance. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Had he been a prior colleague of yours in the security organ?

6 A. In the security organ of the 4th Battalion.

7 Q. Okay. So you didn't contact his superior, you contacted him, I

8 take it, because of his association with or experience in the security

9 organ of the Zvornik Brigade?

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a misstatement of the evidence.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Which evidence?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.


16 Q. Okay. Had he been a colleague of yours in the security organ?

17 A. Before that. In the security organ of the 4th Battalion.

18 Q. Okay. All right. Now, when -- and as I understand it, at some

19 point some reinforcements did come as a result of your request. Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I believe you mentioned the two individuals yesterday when you

22 testified -- among those that came, two individuals that you knew.

23 Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when they came, was it your impression that they knew that

Page 6706

1 there -- that they were there to assist in any killing operation?

2 A. I did not know that.

3 Q. All right. Now, when -- at some point, as you indicated, that

4 Drago Nikolic came and you had informed him that there had been an

5 incident with respect to a couple of prisoners that had been shot and

6 killed. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that's when he told you more or less, "Don't worry about that.

9 They're all going to be killed," or words to that effect. Correct?

10 A. It was said, "What problems? All of them will be executed

11 immediately."

12 Q. Okay. At that point in time when he told you this, you did not

13 express any reservation about executing them, did you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And, in fact, after that you proceeded to assist him and Popovic.

16 Correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, we know or we have learned that Drago Nikolic, who as I

19 understand is a nasty piece of work, actually personally got involved in

20 killing prisoners. Is that a fact?

21 A. I was not there, up there, in that place.

22 Q. Did you, sir, kill anyone?

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I believe you asked this question

24 already.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: That was before that incident, Your Honour, whether

Page 6707

1 he had killed anybody prior to the -- to this incident, because he

2 indicated today in his testimony, Your Honour, that as he was setting off

3 from Zvornik, he understood that this was going to be a murder operation,

4 which led me to think that perhaps he had engaged in previous murder

5 operations, hence his suspicions. But he indicated no. So my question

6 now is: On this particular day, because we do know that Drago Nikolic

7 apparently was bragging later that he had to show some folks how to kill

8 these innocent Muslims. So I want to know whether this gentleman also

9 killed anyone on that occasion.

10 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed with your question, Mr. Karnavas, but

11 you have to remember that this is a witness, not an accused.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand that, Your Honour, but his credibility

13 is on the line.

14 Q. Sir, did you kill anybody? And please remember that you're under

15 oath.

16 A. No.

17 Q. All right. And it's after these events that you go back to the

18 Zvornik Brigade sometime on the morning of the 15th. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you try to get home to see your own family members before they

21 set off for the beach for their summer vacation?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. May I ask: How is it that given your position, your rank, and the

24 conditions and period of the time of war you were able to send your family

25 on a summer vacation to the beach?

Page 6708

1 A. Well, it was not a summer vacation. They went there for health

2 reasons, because my daughter had been in an accident.

3 Q. Okay. Now, I want to talk to you about another subject, and

4 that's with respect to something that was brought up yesterday with

5 respect to your rank and with respect to Mr. Drago Nikolic's rank, if you

6 could help us out.

7 Yesterday you indicated that by 1995 you had the rank of reserve

8 captain, correct, or captain in the reserves?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You are not a graduate of the military academy, are you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. But when you were doing your services, your JNA service, back in

13 1977, as I recall, 1977 and 1978, you were given the opportunity to attend

14 a six-month course in order to become a non-commissioned officer,

15 basically. Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you indicated that upon getting out of the JNA service, you

18 held the rank of sergeant but you remained in the reserves all the way

19 from 1978 to 1992, when the war broke out. Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when the war started and you became a member of the VRS back

22 in 1992, you held the rank of lieutenant. Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And of course as we indicated, by 1995, three years later, you

25 have been promoted to the rank of captain. Right?

Page 6709

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, yesterday you indicated that Drago Nikolic was a lieutenant.

3 Correct?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. The lieutenant.

7 Q. He was a lieutenant; that's what I said. Okay. Perhaps there was

8 a problem in the translation. You also indicated that he was JNA. It's

9 in the record. That, obviously, was a mistake when you stated it.

10 Correct?

11 A. He was an officer because he had graduated from a JNA school. And

12 he worked in the Army of the Republika Srpska.

13 Q. Okay. And that's the clarification I wanted to make, that he was

14 not with the JNA at the time, but he did, in fact, attend the academy, the

15 JNA academy. And as a result --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Okay. And because -- that academy, as I understand

18 it, is a four- or five-year course, is it not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So when we're trying to make the distinction between a captain and

21 someone who is in the reserves and a lieutenant who is an academy

22 graduate, the captain, such as yourself, and Momir Nikolic would have had

23 only six months of training, versus an officer, an academy graduate, a

24 lieutenant would have five years. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6710

1 Q. And for those reasons, because he was an academy graduate, even

2 though you outranked him, he was able to be your superior officer, if not

3 in rank at least in fact. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you ever in a position, sir, where you were giving orders to

6 superior officers, graduates of the academy, who were colonels, lieutenant

7 colonels, or majors? Were you ever in that position?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Does it sound logical to you, sir, that a reserve captain with six

10 months of training would be placed in a position where he would be

11 coordinating the activities of and giving orders to officers, academy

12 graduates, who held those ranks of major, lieutenant colonel, colonel, and

13 such?

14 A. Depending on your position.

15 Q. Well, I'm saying if a captain in the reserve. Does that make

16 sense to you, given your experience, that a reserve captain would be

17 placed in a position where he was would be giving these sorts of orders to

18 those sorts of ranks?

19 A. I never gave orders. I just made a request for assistance.

20 Q. Okay. Now, I want to switch to a slightly different topic, and

21 that is with respect to the security organ. From your testimony

22 yesterday, we learned that upon joining the VRS at some point early on you

23 were given the opportunity to attend some classes or schooling which then

24 allowed you to be in the security organ. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6711

1 Q. And that was the training, I believe, that was in Pancevo?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How many months of training was that?

4 A. I didn't attend this training.

5 Q. Okay. So you never had an opportunity to actually go to the

6 training?

7 A. No.

8 Q. But nonetheless, because of your interest, I take it, you were

9 able to be a member of the security organ?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, the security organ of the Zvornik Brigade, given the size of

12 the brigade, was composed of Drago Nikolic as the chief security officer.

13 Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. And because this was a regular brigade, the intelligence organ was

22 separate and distinct from the security organ?

23 A. Later, not at the beginning.

24 Q. But now if we're talking 1995, it is distinct and separate.

25 Correct?

Page 6712

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, the security organ enjoys far more privileges and benefits

3 than the intelligence organ, does it not?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. All right. Well, aside from perhaps having your own vehicle

6 strictly designated and dedicated to the security organ, for instance, the

7 security organ could send its reports directly to the security organ of

8 the Drina Corps. Correct?

9 A. Yes, in one part.

10 Q. All right. Well, that part dealt with what is commonly referred

11 to as counter-intelligence. Is that not a fact?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, specific to the Zvornik Brigade, there was some tension

14 between Drago Nikolic and Pandurevic, the commander of the Zvornik

15 Brigade. Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I never met the man, but I'm told that Mr. Pandurevic was a rather

18 assertive individual. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And not only assertive, but he wanted to be in total and absolute

21 control of his entire brigade, including the security organ. Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in fact as I recall from reading some of your documents,

24 Pandurevic would often remind everyone, including Drago Nikolic, that he,

25 that is, Pandurevic, was the commander. Correct?

Page 6713

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in trying to control Drago Nikolic, he also tried to ensure

3 that any and all correspondence leaving the Zvornik Brigade would first

4 have to go through Pandurevic before being sent to other -- to the higher

5 echelon. Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And this was a problem that caused some degree of tension between

8 this lieutenant, who was the head of the security organ, and this -- I

9 believe he was a lieutenant colonel at the time, who was the commander of

10 one of the best-equipped brigades within the Drina Corps. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And, in fact, when Pandurevic tried to control Drago Nikolic with

13 respect to the correspondence that he was sending directly to the security

14 organ of the Drina Corps, orders were issued from above that Pandurevic

15 would have to back down, back away, and allow Nikolic, Drago Nikolic, to

16 conduct his affairs as he saw fit. Correct?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Well, you were part of that organ; surely you know about the

19 disagreements. Correct?

20 A. I was a part of the organ, but I don't have all the information.

21 Q. All right. On that particular night, on the 14th, do you know

22 whether Drago Nikolic contacted Pandurevic to inform him of what he was

23 about to do, yes or no?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, Pandurevic wasn't around the entire time, so I take it

Page 6714

1 Obrenovic was left. Correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He was in charge?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. On the 16th of July, did you at any point in time when

6 you were being asked to look for assistance for the killing operation that

7 Popovic was involved, did you contact either Obrenovic or Pandurevic to

8 alarm them of the fact that more innocent Muslim prisoners were about to

9 be executed?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that you and Momir Nikolic were

12 acting in a rather independent manner during those critical days. And

13 when I say "independent," I mean independent from other organs -- I should

14 say Drago Nikolic if that's --

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think Mr. --

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I corrected myself, Your Honour.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Karnavas has got the --

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, I'm getting the Nikolics mistaken. Both nasty

20 pieces of work, but nonetheless we should be precise, Your Honour.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. On the 14th, on the 14th, Drago Nikolic was engaged with

25 Mr. Popovic, who also is a member of the security organ of the Drina

Page 6715

1 Corps. Correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And at some point you have indicated to the Prosecutor that

4 Nikolic was acting on orders or with the acquiescence of Colonel Beara,

5 who was the head of the security organ of the Main Staff. Correct?

6 A. I didn't say that. I said that he had previously had an encounter

7 with Beara, not that he had acted pursuant to orders.

8 Q. Okay. Well, do you think for one second, sir, that Beara was not

9 informed of what was going on, given that he had his main assassin - and I

10 use this word in a quite illustrative way - and that is I'm referring to

11 Popovic being out there in the field, directing Nikolic, directing you,

12 directing the military police to kill these innocent prisoners of war. Do

13 you think for one second Beara was not involved?

14 A. Yes. They were abreast of what was going on, and they were

15 involved, yes.

16 Q. Now, when you were asked yesterday whether you were able to give

17 orders to Jasikovac, who was the chief of the military police of the

18 Zvornik Brigade, you indicated that, in essence, you were in parity

19 [Realtime transcript read in error "parody"] with him, that you could not

20 order him -- he could not order you, but you could go to Drago Nikolic,

21 should you need Jasikovac's assistance. Am I correct in understanding

22 that?

23 A. But I was able to convey to him what the assignments were.

24 Q. Okay. Well, let me make sure that I understand this --

25 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Sorry, Mr. Karnavas, could you take a look at

Page 6716

1 line 20, this page, because there's a word I don't think is the one you

2 mentioned. And we need to have the correct word.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Thank you very, very much, Your

4 Honour.

5 Q. Sir, were you on equal footing with Jasikovac. I mean, with Drago

6 Nikolic being at the top of the food chain and then you being an officer

7 and then Jasikovac being the chief of the military police. Do I have it

8 correct?

9 A. Jasikovac was the commander of the military police company.

10 Q. All right. Now, if you were to give -- as I understand your

11 previous answer, you could suggest to him what he should do with his

12 military police officers. Correct?

13 A. He was under the chief security officer, mostly. And in his

14 absence, if a request was made to me, then I would convey this request or

15 the order to the commander of the military police.

16 Q. Okay. Well, just so I'm very clear, when Drago Nikolic was

17 absent, were you left then in charge as sort of the acting security

18 officer for the purposes of directing the chief of the military police and

19 how he should use his officers?

20 A. What is part of the job description of my post and in light of the

21 overall authority.

22 Q. All right. So as you understand it, that's part of your

23 authority, part of your job description, that when Drago Nikolic isn't

24 there, you have the power, the right, to issue orders to the chief of the

25 military police?

Page 6717

1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. All right. If the military -- if the chief of the military

3 police were not around, did you have the power, at least as you understood

4 it to be, to issue orders to the military police?

5 A. No, I didn't have the power to issue orders, but if they were --

6 they had the same task as myself, it was either the commander of the

7 military police who would tell them what the task was or would tell them

8 that they would receive instructions from myself.

9 Q. During those days, were they receiving instructions from Popovic?

10 A. Who do you have in mind?

11 Q. I apologise. The military police.

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Okay. Well, what about on the 14th, was Popovic issuing any

14 orders or did he just -- was sort of the big picture fell on the ground,

15 leaving it up to you and Jasikovac to figure out the details of this

16 operation?

17 A. It was Drago Nikolic who told us this.

18 Q. Okay. So Drago Nikolic was on the ground the entire time while

19 this was going on, supervising you and supervising the chief of the

20 military police?

21 A. No, he was not present there all the time.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may have a moment, Your Honour.

23 I just have a couple of questions left.

24 Q. Sir, one cannot help but notice that as you describe your

25 activities during those days, you show absolutely no remorse or no

Page 6718

1 regrets. Could you please explain to us how do you feel about what you

2 did.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I don't object to the last part of

5 that question, but the first part is a gratuitous. We don't know whether

6 this man has showed regret or not remorse. He's, I guess, making his own

7 personal judgement of his face -- which is not necessary.


9 MR. McCLOSKEY: The question itself, I have no objection to.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I agree with Mr. McCloskey. Maybe you could

11 leave out the first part of the question and just directly come to your

12 questions. We don't know. We really don't know.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour, but I must confess I

14 haven't noticed anything.

15 Q. As you sit here today, sir, could you please explain to us how do

16 you feel about your conduct and what you did during those days.

17 A. I feel remorse and I feel bad about it.

18 Q. Do you believe, sir, that you owe it to the victims and to the

19 surviving members of those families to be indicted and to be sentenced and

20 to be incarcerated?

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. There's no relevance to that question.

23 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could rephrase this question.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

25 Q. Do you believe, sir, that you are guilty of any crimes for which

Page 6719

1 you should be indicted, convicted, and sentenced?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: With that, Your Honour, I have no further

4 questions.

5 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have five minutes to the break.

7 Mr. Stojanovic, you may begin your cross-examination, or we may

8 have our break.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your permission, Your

10 Honour, we would like to use these four minutes to re-organise ourselves.

11 And we would prefer to start after the break.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

13 We'll resume at 20 minutes to 6.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.10 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 5.42 p.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, your cross-examination, please.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Let us first go through the part concerning your

19 biography, your personal details.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And that's why I would like to

21 ask for private session at this point, Your Honour, in order to protect

22 the witness.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 6720












12 Pages 6720 to 6725 redacted, private session














Page 6726

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE LIU: We are now in open session. You may proceed.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. To speed things up a bit, I will now try to describe the structure

25 of the Zvornik Brigade. It's already been admitted into evidence, the

Page 6727

1 structure, but I just want you to confirm to me that it's right.

2 Do you agree with me that at that time, we're talking about July

3 1995, the commander of the Zvornik Brigade was Vinko Pandurevic?

4 A. Do you mean throughout July?

5 Q. Yes. I'm talking about the whole of July of 1995. Was he the

6 brigade commander?

7 A. He was the commander, but he was absent for a time.

8 Q. Yes, I agree with you. We know that. But we just want to see

9 what the establishment was like. In July 1995, he was the brigade

10 commander?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In July 1995, the deputy commander of the brigade and also the

13 chief of staff of the brigade was Dragan Obrenovic. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Since you already stated that at one point the commander was

16 absent, in that period did his deputy, Dragan Obrenovic, take upon himself

17 all the duties and tasks of the brigade commander?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Am I right when I say that on the third level of the chain of

20 command, there were the assistants to the commander, the assistant to the

21 commander for morale, Nenad Simic; assistant for security, Drago Nikolic;

22 and assistant to the commander for logistics, Sretan Milosevic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And on the fourth level of the responsibility in the brigade,

25 there were the operations officer -- the operations organ with Mijo

Page 6728

1 Dragutinovic and Milan Maric [phoen] and another officer. I will not go

2 into details in this respect.

3 A. I cannot give you the chain of command, because I don't know

4 whether they were on the fourth level of it.

5 Q. Can we agree for the first three levels: The command, his deputy,

6 and the assistants to the commander?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. We will not explore this further. This is quite sufficient. I

9 wanted us to focus on the position of the assistant to the commander for

10 logistics. You told us this was Sretan Milosevic. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was his rank in July 1995?

13 A. I assume that he was a captain first class, reserve captain first

14 class.

15 Q. But according to the establishment, he was on the post which was

16 on the third level in the Zvornik Brigade, in the chain of command of the

17 Zvornik Brigade. Is that correct?

18 A. Well, I cannot determine what his level in the chain of command

19 was, but I do know what his post, what his duties, were.

20 Q. Well, a little while ago you said that you could establish the

21 level up to the three levels, the commander, deputy, assistants. Is that

22 so?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So I can conclude that he was at the third level in terms of

25 importance of his post when we look at the establishment?

Page 6729

1 A. Yes.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I believe that you asked some

22 questions which is too specific, which will be very easy to disclose the

23 identity of this witness. Could we go into private session?

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

Page 6730

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Sir, as an aside, let me just ask you: Is there a duty officer at

24 the forward command post of the brigade?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6731

1 Q. Is there at the same time a duty officer in the barracks of the

2 brigade?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please tell us - we're now talking about July 1995 -

5 where the forward command post of the Zvornik Brigade was located.

6 A. In Kitovnice.

7 Q. Could you please repeat the name of the place for the transcript.

8 A. In Kitovnice.

9 Q. Thank you. Was the forward command post linked with the brigade

10 command and the battalion, via communications equipment, telephone or some

11 other kind of equipment?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. Am I right in stating that the communications -- the telephone

14 communications from the forward command post, that there was a

15 communication between the forward command post and the battalion, which

16 would bypass the brigade command, that there was a telephone line?

17 A. I wasn't sure whether all the battalions had this kind of lines.

18 Q. Let me rephrase that. Do you know whether the first battalion had

19 a direct telephone line with the forward command post, the Pilica

20 Battalion, if we may call it that?

21 A. I'm not sure. I don't know.

22 Q. And the thing that I'm really interested in: Did the 2nd

23 Battalion have a direct telephone line with the forward command post?

24 A. I don't know the schematics, how this was done.

25 Q. But you will agree with me that certain battalions had direct link

Page 6732

1 with the forward command post?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Briefly, please, what is the procedure of the handover

4 of duty of the duty officer, and is there a logbook of such handovers of

5 duty?

6 A. Yes, there is. The procedure is as follows: It is done in the

7 presence of the commander or the commander of the brigade; specific tasks

8 are also related at that time, the tasks relating to that particular

9 shift. The duty officer who is supposed to be relieved must hand over the

10 documentation, together with the minutes, to the person who is supposed to

11 take over the duty.

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6733

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. So this would have been Ljubo Bojanovic

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who rank did Ljubo Bojanovic have, or what was his duty, according

16 to the establishment?

17 A. He had the rank of major.

18 Q. Could he, without the knowledge of the commander or the chief of

19 staff, assign you to be the duty officer on that day?

20 A. I don't know whether he had -- previously had any consultations

21 with anyone. But as far as I know, it was said that in the absence of the

22 commander and the chief of staff, then it is the duty operations officer

23 who has authority.

24 Q. Are you personally aware whether Ljubo Bojanovic had consulted the

25 commander or the chief of staff before he told you that you were supposed

Page 6734

1 to take over on the 16th?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Thank you. At that time the Zvornik Brigade had a battalion which

4 was deployed at Nisici, am I right?

5 A. I cannot remember.

6 Q. Let me try to refresh your memory with my following question.

7 Milenko Kajtaz was the battalion commander. Can you now remember that

8 there was a unit that was deployed at the Nisici plateau?

9 A. I was not informed about the deployment of the units. I cannot

10 really remember.

11 Q. Does the name Zoran Janjusic, a member of the military police ring

12 a bell?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us who this person is and how you know him.

15 A. Zoran Janjusic had also come from the area of either Zenica or

16 Kakanj, I'm not sure, and was a member of the Zvornik Brigade with the

17 military police company.

18 Q. Do you remember whether during that period there were any problems

19 with this particular military police officer and if any proceedings were

20 initiated against him?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was the reason for these proceedings against this individual?

23 A. The reason being the assistance he had provided in transporting

24 Muslims from one location to another. I cannot remember any specific

25 details.

Page 6735

1 Q. How did he happen -- how did he help Muslims to move from one

2 place to another, and were those Muslims civilians?

3 A. They were probably civilians.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could get --


6 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- a time frame, otherwise these questions are

7 pretty vague and not very relevant.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. At the

10 beginning of this line of questioning, line 13 and 14, I said: "During

11 this period of time," and I was referring to the first half of 1995. And

12 the witness said: "Yes." But I will try to repeat.

13 Q. Are you talking about an event which occurred during the first

14 half of 1995?

15 A. I cannot situate this event precisely, but I know that it

16 happened.

17 Q. Would it be correct to say that this was in 1995?

18 A. Yes, that would be my assumption.

19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if this military policeman was ever

20 punished for having helped Muslims to move from one location to another.

21 A. He spent some time in detention at the Zvornik Brigade

22 headquarters, but I don't know how long.

23 Q. Do you remember if a criminal report was ever submitted to the

24 military prosecutor because of the assistance he had provided to the

25 enemy?

Page 6736

1 A. I don't know. If that was the case, this would have been done by

2 the chief of legal affairs department and the security --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, chief of security department.

4 Excuse me, chief of security and legal service.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Were you involved in the proceedings or in the part of the

7 proceedings against Janjusic, you in your capacity as a security officer?

8 A. Yes, partly.

9 Q. Could you please tell the Court what your involvement was in this

10 matter.

11 A. Drago Nikolic, the security chief, requested that I and an

12 individual from the legal department go to the place of residence, to the

13 house of this individual and carry out a search. After the search was

14 completed, we went back to the headquarters. However, Drago had ordered

15 before that that this individual be detained in the premises of the

16 Zvornik Brigade headquarters.

17 Q. Did you personally take him to the prison facility at the Zvornik

18 Brigade headquarters?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Was this done by the military policemen of the Zvornik Brigade?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you with them?

23 A. No, I wasn't.

24 Q. Thank you. Just a couple of questions regarding Nesko Djokic and

25 his son. Do you remember this event?

Page 6737

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell the Court about this event.

3 A. I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.


5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Your Honour. If there's some relevance

6 to that last line of questioning, the Rules here require that the point be

7 put to the witness. I don't know what the point was otherwise. If

8 they're suggesting there's some wrongdoing or something, the witness needs

9 to have a chance to respond to it.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 Mr. Stojanovic, do you take the objections from the Prosecutor?

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In my

13 subsequent questions, I will ask about relevant aspects of this matter,

14 that is, the participation of the witness in all this. And to show what

15 the attitude of security officer was towards everyone who may have

16 provided assistance to Muslims in this period.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think there should be a

18 relevance to the case in this trial.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think it would be

20 relevant, and I will stick to the evidence that has been provided by the

21 Prosecutor. I'm not going to go out of this framework, and I will finish

22 this with three or four questions.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let us see how relevant it is.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, you said that before -- you said before the intervention

Page 6738

1 of the Prosecutor that you were aware of this event, but then you went on

2 to say that you were not sure we were talking about the same thing. Let

3 me try and be even more specific. Are you aware that proceedings were

4 conducted before the security organ of the Zvornik Brigade against Djokic,

5 father and son, in July 1995?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were these individuals punished for that?

8 A. What kind of punishment do you have in mind?

9 Q. Did they spend any time in detention at the Zvornik Brigade?

10 A. Yes, they did.

11 Q. Was that for a period of 40 days?

12 A. I don't know how long they were detained.

13 Q. Was a criminal report submitted to the military prosecutor for the

14 criminal offence of providing assistance to the enemy?

15 A. I'm not aware of that. If that was the case, then it must have

16 been Drago Nikolic together with the legal department of the military

17 police who submitted this report.

18 Q. Were you personally involved in this matter and in this

19 investigation, which was conducted by the security department?

20 A. Yes, partly.

21 Q. What kind of an involvement was it? How were you involved?

22 A. For me to be able to explain this, I would need much more time.

23 With Your Honours' permission.

24 Q. Do you need a closed session for this?

25 A. I don't need a closed session. I can just tell you that I was

Page 6739

1 personally at home of these two individuals, the Djokics, while they were

2 in detention, because Drago Nikolic had sent me to their house. He wanted

3 me to be present there, together with the legal department of the military

4 police, who was there to take a statement from the mother, and to bring

5 this statement back to Drago Nikolic.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes --

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

8 questions regarding this issue.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I just wasn't clear the incident he was referring

10 to. And if he doesn't want to go into it, I won't need to clear it up.

11 But ...

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The case

14 in question refers to something we have just received from the Prosecutor.

15 This can be seen from the documents that were seized at the Zvornik

16 Brigade headquarters. The documentation includes the criminal report

17 submitted against these individuals. Let me finish this by just one more

18 question to the witness.

19 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that the Muslims who were involved in

20 this particular case are the individuals who had fled from Branjevo, or

21 rather, from the Branjevo execution site?

22 A. You mean in connection with the Djokic family?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Just to be clear, the individuals were Muslims who had managed --

Page 6740

1 who had survived the execution at Branjevo, who had been helped by the

2 Djokics, who were then subject of these proceedings on account of that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 Let me now go back to the part of your testimony concerning the

6 night between the 13th and the 14th of July, 1995. You spoke about the

7 arrival of Muslim prisoners on buses and trucks in Orahovac. Do you

8 remember that?

9 A. Yes, only on buses.

10 Q. So there were no trucks?

11 A. There were no trucks where?

12 Q. That night, were Muslim prisoners brought on trucks as well?

13 A. No, not in Orahovac.

14 Q. Thank you. Can you remember how many buses arrived on that night

15 bringing Muslim prisoners?

16 A. I cannot tell you the precise number, but I know I followed the

17 situation for as long as three buses arrived. After that, I no longer

18 followed.

19 Q. Is it the case that you did not want to follow the situation or

20 could not follow what was going on?

21 A. I was no longer paying attention to that.

22 Q. Did you see at one point in time that a vehicle bearing UNPROFOR

23 markings was present there as well?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can you tell us please when this procedure of bringing Muslims to

Page 6741

1 Orahovac actually ended. When was it over?

2 A. Sometime in the night between the 13th and the 14th.

3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday - let me try to clarify - you said that they

4 had stopped bringing in Muslims sometime during the night, and you have

5 just confirmed this again. But can you tell us exactly when during the

6 night this transport stopped.

7 A. Are you talking about Orahovac?

8 Q. Yes. The night between the 13th and the 14th of July.

9 A. It could have been sometime around midnight. I don't know the

10 exact time.

11 Q. So after midnight, no Muslim prisoners were brought to the

12 Orahovac elementary school gym?

13 A. No, as far as I know.

14 Q. On the 25th and also on the 21st of January, you confirmed that

15 you had been in Orahovac on the 14th and that you had spent the whole day

16 there. Is it correct what you stated yesterday, that during the day,

17 during the 14th of July, no prisoners were brought to the gym in Orahovac,

18 no more prisoners were being brought there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Does this mean that no more prisoners were brought there?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the

23 assistance of the usher, please. If the witness can be shown the

24 transcript which, for the purposes of identification, we marked as D54

25 and 55. We also have the B/C/S translation of the transcript. This is

Page 6742

1 the testimony of witnesses Kemal Mehmedovic and Mevludin Oric. Could the

2 witness be shown the B/C/S version so that he could follow.

3 Your Honour, I'm referring to the transcript from the testimony of

4 Kemal Mehmedovic, who was heard before this Tribunal. It was a session

5 held on the 15th of July. For identification, it was page 1277, line 13

6 through 18.

7 Q. Sir, I would like us to go through this together. So Witness

8 Kemal Mehmedovic, a survivor of the execution in Orahovac, testified

9 before this Tribunal. And he stated the following.

10 The question of the Prosecutor was: "So what time did your

11 vehicle finally leave the area roughly," meaning Bratunac, where they had

12 spent the night between the 13th and the 14th.

13 The witness responds: "Do you mean on the way out of Bratunac or

14 in front of the garages?" Prosecutor: "On the way out of Bratunac."

15 The witness answers: "Well, we left possibly sometime between

16 10.00 and 12.00 because I think we arrived down there maybe in the early

17 afternoon. And we only stopped very briefly on the way. There was a lot

18 of -- many hours were spent standing, but I don't know how many because I

19 didn't have a watch."

20 "And what direction did your vehicle go in?"

21 "In the direction of Konjevic, Polje and Zvornik."

22 Were you able to follow this testimony?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So this witness states that he spent the night between the 13th

25 and the 14th in Bratunac. And when asked by the Prosecutor, he answers

Page 6743

1 that on the 14th in the morning, sometime between 10.00 and 12.00, he set

2 off in this column towards Orahovac, and that they arrived there in the

3 early afternoon. You have this page in front of you, that would be

4 page 1277, lines 13 through 18. When asked by us you answered, while

5 under oath, that nobody else was brought in after midnight in the night of

6 the 13th to the 14th of July, 1995. You stated, furthermore - again, you

7 are under oath - on the 21st of January and on the 25th of January, you

8 stated to the Prosecutor that you had spent the entire day there. You had

9 undertaken to speak the truth. You said that nobody had been brought in,

10 nobody else.

11 A survivor of this event, Kemal Mehmedovic, states that it was in

12 the early afternoon and that he had set off from Bratunac between 10.00

13 and 12.00. So who is not telling the truth?

14 A. Well, I said that as far as I could remember, the transportation

15 of Muslims by bus was organised, that they were transported from

16 Srebrenica to Orahovac, and that the transportation was completed during

17 the night. Now, as to whether there were any individual arrivals, I don't

18 know about that and I don't remember that.

19 Q. Sir, Kemal Mehmedovic, in a very moving testimony, spoke about

20 this long column moving from Bratunac to Orahovac. He spoke about the

21 size of the column. He spoke about how the column was escorted, how it

22 was organised, and how they had to wait and gather in front of the Vihor

23 garage for the column to be formed, the column that would then go on to

24 Orahovac. Yet, today you tell us that after midnight, there were no

25 organised arrivals. But you do not rule out the possibility that there

Page 6744

1 may have been individual arrivals. This witness speaks about organised

2 arrivals in the afternoon of the 14th of July. Is he then not telling the

3 truth?

4 A. Upon receiving the task in the Zvornik Brigade relating to the

5 reception and the accommodation of the Muslims from Srebrenica in the gym

6 of the Orahovac elementary school, I did not have any other insight or any

7 other knowledge pertaining to the organised arrivals of columns of

8 vehicles, except for the fact that Drago Nikolic on that night when he

9 came to Orahovac - I can't be specific about the time - told me that there

10 were other buses with people from Srebrenica arriving and leaving to

11 Petkovci, Rocevic, and Pilica, for the people to be accommodated there.

12 But I was not the only person there in Orahovac. Jasikovac was

13 also there, and if perhaps this vehicle came and was taken in in his

14 presence, it doesn't necessarily mean that I would have to know about it.

15 Q. Sir, I know that you testified to this effect, but something

16 doesn't fit in here. Is it possible that in the afternoon of the 14th, a

17 column of vehicles appeared escorted by UNPROFOR vehicles, and the people

18 on the vehicles were then taken off the buses and put in the gym without

19 you knowing about it at all?

20 A. I really don't know anything about this.

21 Q. The only conclusion I can draw then is that it is possible that

22 Witness Kemal Mehmedovic wasn't telling the truth. Isn't that so?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's argumentative and not relevant

25 for this person to make that conclusion.

Page 6745

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think the Bench will draw the

2 conclusion from the serious questions you asked. You may move on.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

4 now ask the witness to have a look at the next exhibit, which would be D63

5 for identification purposes. This is a transcript of the testimony of

6 Mevludin Oric, a survivor of the Orahovac event. He testified before this

7 Tribunal on the 21st of July, 2003. The page is 1349, lines 6 through 10.

8 Q. So again, this is a witness who is a survivor of the events in

9 Orahovac who testified before this Tribunal. And when asked by the

10 Prosecutor what happened next morning, that is the question, he

11 answers: "The next morning, that was the 14th, the morning of the 14th,

12 they told us that they were taking us to Kladanj to be exchanged as

13 prisoners of war."

14 The Prosecutor then asks: "So what did you see?"

15 The witness answers: "We waited there for a while, for this

16 column to start. We were told that we had to wait. When we left

17 Bratunac, we parked at the Vihor parking lot. We waited there, and we

18 were told that we had to wait for UNPROFOR because they were due to arrive

19 from Potocari." And so on.

20 Sir, what is the distance between Bratunac and Orahovac?

21 A. I don't know the exact distance, 50, 60 kilometres.

22 Q. If it is a column of vehicles which is driving at a slow rate of

23 speed, relatively speaking, a column that has its escort, it's a column

24 that consists of buses and trucks, what would you say? How long would it

25 take for this column to arrive from Bratunac to Orahovac?

Page 6746

1 A. I cannot give you an estimate as to their speed and the time that

2 it would take them to arrive there.

3 Q. But at any rate, they would need at least a few hours?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. According to the testimony of this witness, he also

6 confirms that the column, which again consisted of five buses, four

7 trucks, and an UNPROFOR vehicle, did on that day in the afternoon of the

8 14th arrive to Orahovac. Can you remember, if you were indeed present

9 there, whether this column had arrived in Orahovac?

10 A. I was there. I don't remember that the column arrived in front of

11 the gym in Orahovac.

12 Q. Sir, this witness testified about being in the gym. He testified

13 about the events in the gym, about how he was taken out of the gym, loaded

14 on to a truck, and taken or driven to the execution site. He was in the

15 gym; that's his testimony. He was there on the 14th, that's when he was

16 brought in, in the afternoon of the 14th. Is it possible -- would it be

17 possible for you not to see this column that was so large?

18 A. I have already told you, I was present there. I don't remember

19 about the arrival of this column in front of the gym in the Orahovac

20 elementary school. I cannot state that this column -- that it was

21 impossible for this column to be anywhere else in Orahovac.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps this would be a good

23 moment, Your Honour, to adjourn, since I will continue with another line

24 of questioning. Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, could you please tell me how long your

Page 6747

1 cross-examination will last.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may ask you for the time

3 that you are prepared to allot to me.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, just give me an indication, Mr. Stojanovic.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we

6 should be finished in one, one and a half, maybe two sessions, but I

7 really don't want to interfere with your schedule. I would then have the

8 opportunity to cut down my questions tonight or perhaps even expand the

9 number of questions, if you allow me to.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I understand that this week we still have two

11 witnesses waiting on the list. Of course I want you to streamline your

12 questions for tomorrow's session and try to finish this witness as soon as

13 possible.

14 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, the witness that's next is here and

16 should be ready to go tomorrow and Thursday. And the way it's looking and

17 in my discussions, I think we're going to have plenty of time for that

18 witness. The other witness, Kate Barr, the handwriting person, should be

19 ready to testify on Friday, and one day for a handwriting expert should be

20 plenty of time. So it looks like we're on schedule and shouldn't have a

21 problem and then the next few [sic].

22 I do have a new bit of information that the investigation has

23 learned that I wanted to alert the Court of. I don't know if now is the

24 time. I can alert you tomorrow morning. I just found out about it today,

25 the possibility of another witness.

Page 6748

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think it's proper for us to discuss

2 about this specific witness before this witness. Maybe you could discuss

3 it tomorrow.

4 Well, I think we'll resume tomorrow afternoon in the same

5 courtroom, and the -- well, the hearing is adjourned.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

7 at 7.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

8 the 28th day of January, 2004,

9 at 2.15 p.m.