Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7683

1 Friday, 16 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Good morning, everybody.

9 Mr. Karnavas.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: So today we are going to hear the next witness. Are

12 there any protective measures?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE LIU: I see. I hope you could remember is that our concern

15 with this witness because from your 65 ter filings we found that --

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand.

17 JUDGE LIU: -- he will testify to the things he saw are most the

18 same with the previous one.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: And that's the operative word "almost." It's the

20 part that's not quite the same that I'm trying to get out, Your Honour,

21 but there's going to be some interesting things, and I'm mindful of the

22 Court's admonitions and concerns truly, and I'm going to streamline this

23 entire case as much as I can, but I do intend to try a case that is going

24 to be helpful for your decision-making at the end.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

Page 7684

1 Could we have the witness, please.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

5 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

13 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

14 Q. Good morning, sir.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. If you could please tell us what your name is.

17 A. My name is Srbislav Davidovic.

18 Q. And if you could tell us your name letter by letter. Your last

19 name.

20 A. D-a-v-i-d-o-v-i-c.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, do you have a nickname?

22 A. I do. It's Buco, B-u-c-o.

23 Q. Now, everything we're saying has to be translated so one, you need

24 to speak slowly, and two, if you could speak loud enough so they can hear

25 you in the booth, okay?

Page 7685

1 A. All right.

2 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Davidovic, if you could please tell us, where

3 are you from?

4 A. I'm from Bratunac.

5 Q. Where were you born?

6 A. In Bratunac.

7 Q. And how long have you lived in Bratunac?

8 A. From the day I was born.

9 Q. That would make it how many years?

10 A. Fifty-seven.

11 Q. Now, I take it you were also educated there.

12 A. I was. I completed the primary and the secondary school in

13 Bratunac.

14 Q. After secondary school did you get any further education?

15 A. I did. I graduated from the secondary -- from the high teaching

16 school, teacher's school in Bijeljina. After the teacher's school I

17 graduated from the paedagogical academy in Tuzla.

18 Q. And how many years altogether was that?

19 A. Primary school, eight years; secondary school, four years; higher

20 school, two years. That makes it 14.

21 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Davidovic, after you completed your education,

22 what was your first job?

23 A. I worked as a teacher, a teacher of the first four years in the

24 municipality of Bratunac.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you to speak slowly and clearly so they can hear

Page 7686

1 you, because everything needs to be translated, sir. And just try to

2 relax. I know you're nervous.

3 Now, how long did you teach?

4 A. I taught from 1968 until 1970.

5 Q. And after that what job did you hold?

6 A. After that I was appointed by the municipal assembly to the post

7 of deputy head for internal affairs in the secretariat of Bratunac.

8 Q. Okay. Now, is that with the police force?

9 A. Yes, that's the police.

10 Q. Okay. So you were working for the Bratunac police in that

11 capacity. How long did you work for the Bratunac police?

12 A. One term of office. That's four years.

13 Q. All right. Could you please tell us just very briefly what your

14 functions were when you held that job.

15 A. My duties as deputy head of the secretariat for internal affairs

16 in Bratunac involved being the chief of section for general administrative

17 and legal affairs. That is one department. And my second department was

18 in charge of the reserve police force.

19 Q. Okay. Just very briefly, when we're talking about reserve police

20 force, what are we talking about?

21 A. The general secretariat for internal affairs of Bratunac included

22 also the reserve police force. The strength of reserve police force in

23 our secretariat was 300. Conceptually speaking, that falls under the

24 concept of general People's Defence -- All People's Defence. By the law

25 of 1978, reserve police forces were established. Their role was to act in

Page 7687

1 emergency situations and in cases of immediate danger of war wherein they

2 would be activated and discharge police duties.

3 In the municipality of Bratunac, there were 13 local communes and

4 the same number of reserve police stations.

5 Q. Now, was this an obligatory duty for those individuals that were

6 chosen to become part of the reserve police?

7 A. Yes, it was obligatory. It was their wartime assignment, so to

8 speak.

9 Q. Okay. Now, was it -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. You wanted to

10 supplement your --

11 A. The secretariat for national defence would assign persons who have

12 completed their military service to the reserve police force, and that was

13 their wartime assignment.

14 Q. Okay. Now, how long were you -- after you -- you told us you were

15 with the Bratunac police for four years. After that job, where did you

16 move on to?

17 A. After my term of office was over, I was appointed director of the

18 national university, or the people's university, rather, in Bratunac.

19 That is a cultural institution which within it's purview had the

20 national -- sorry, town library, the cinema, and implemented part of the

21 educational programme.

22 Q. All right. And how long did you hold that job?

23 A. I was on that post from 1974 until the war began in 1992. That is

24 where the war found me.

25 Q. All right. Now, did you at some point in time become involved in

Page 7688

1 politics?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. And were you a member of a party?

4 A. I was a member of the Socialist Democratic Party.

5 Q. Okay. Is that the same as the SDS?

6 A. No. The abbreviation is SDP. The acronym is SDP. I was not a

7 member of the SDS then. I was a member of the SDP. It's the former

8 League of Communists.

9 Q. That was my next question. We're talking about you being a member

10 of the Communist Party. As a member, did you hold any positions at any

11 point in time in Bratunac?

12 A. Yes. In 1978, at the session of the municipal assembly of

13 Bratunac, I was elected vice-president of the municipal assembly, and I

14 stayed in that post for two years, until 1980, when I was appointed to my

15 police functions.

16 Q. All right. Now, before we move on, did the SDS and the SDP get

17 along as parties?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And why is that?

20 A. Well, I suppose they did not have the same platform, and they were

21 in fact fierce political enemies.

22 Q. Okay. Now, did you hold any other posts other than the one that

23 you have just mentioned?

24 A. In the SDP, I was a member of the Municipal Committee, and that

25 was in the period from 1978.

Page 7689

1 Q. What about the --

2 THE INTERPRETER: 1988, correction.


4 Q. What about IN 1995? Did you hold any posts at that particular

5 period?

6 A. In 1995?

7 Q. 1995.

8 A. I was in the municipality. You mean politically speaking?

9 Q. Politically speaking. That's what we're talking about. What was

10 your -- what was your position?

11 A. I was president of the Executive Board of the Bratunac

12 municipality.

13 Q. How long had you been -- how long had you been in that position?

14 A. In that position, I was from the 15th of October, 1994, to the

15 month of March 1997.

16 Q. Now, at that point in time were you a member of the -- had you

17 switched over to the SDS?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now, when you were appointed, were you a member of the SDS?

20 A. No, I was not.

21 Q. Who appointed you to that position?

22 A. The position of President of the Executive Board?

23 Q. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about that last

24 position that you held. At what point did that position --

25 A. I was appointed by the municipal assembly of Bratunac.

Page 7690

1 Q. At whose recommendation, sir?

2 A. The recommendation of the SDS.

3 Q. Who in the SDS, sir? We want to be concrete and specific so we

4 can get you back home to Bratunac hopefully by the end of the day. Who

5 from the SDS made it a point to have you appointed to that position?

6 A. I was nominated by the president of the Municipal Board, and that

7 was Miroslav Deronjic. The municipal assembly accepted the nomination,

8 and the delegates appointed me, that is, elected me. I did have a counter

9 candidate. Two of us were nominated, and I won a larger number of votes

10 and was elected.

11 Q. And you're also Mr. Deronjic's neighbour; correct?

12 A. Yes. Our houses are perhaps ten metres apart.

13 Q. Okay. Now, who was the most powerful person in Bratunac during

14 that period, you, Mr. Simic, or was there somebody else?

15 A. I think it was Mr. Deronjic who had the highest rating in

16 Bratunac.

17 Q. All right. Well, in fact you know that he did have it; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now, if you could just please tell us exactly what your job

20 entailed.

21 A. The Executive Board is an executive body of the Assembly. In

22 other terms, it's the local government, and I was at the head of that

23 government, i.e., I was president of the Executive Board. The body had

24 eight members.

25 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention on July 1995, when Srebrenica

Page 7691

1 fell. That would be 11 July 1995. Okay? So we're going to speak about

2 that day.

3 A. All right.

4 Q. Now, do you recall where you were on that day?

5 A. I was in the building of the municipal assembly, in my office.

6 Q. Did you stay there the entire day?

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. Okay. Well, where were you?

9 A. The secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence, Mr. Tesic,

10 told me that he had received an order to mobilise members who had a

11 wartime assignment and that I should go together with him out in the field

12 to a location called Pribicevac. That location is about 25 kilometres

13 away from Bratunac.

14 Q. Did you go there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you dressed in a military uniform?

17 A. No, I was not.

18 Q. When you were there, did you see Colonel Blagojevic?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did Mr. Tesic tell you to report to Colonel Blagojevic with these

21 men that you were going there for?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Could you tell us what you -- what did you do when you got to

24 Pribicevac.

25 A. I went ahead of Tesic to Pribicevac by about two hours. I was up

Page 7692

1 there in a house which held the logistics section of the Bratunac Brigade.

2 In that logistical unit, my son was also a member. I dropped by to see

3 him, intending to wait for Tesic there, as well as the members of the

4 labour brigade.

5 Q. All right. And how long were you there?

6 A. I stayed for about an hour, maybe an hour and a half.

7 Q. And did you see anyone while you were there?

8 A. Yes. I saw General Mladic.

9 Q. Would you please describe a little bit that experience.

10 A. I sat there inside that house talking to my son and the other

11 young men who were in that room. Somebody says, "Here's General Mladic

12 coming." I looked through the window and saw his car which was coming

13 closer to the house. I went outside, and at that moment the vehicle

14 carrying the general arrived. The general got out and asked me very

15 sharply who I was and what I was doing there. I introduced myself, and he

16 told me again very sharply to go away.

17 Q. Okay. Did you think he was going to do anything to you while you

18 were leaving?

19 A. Well, considering the tone he used when he spoke to me, I was a

20 bit frightened because I wasn't wearing my uniform. I wasn't carrying a

21 weapon, and I thought to myself, I'd better go inside the house and pick

22 up somebody's rifle and go back outside to show him that I wasn't out

23 there for a picnic, which is what I did. And as I was coming out of the

24 house, the general again intercepted me on the threshold because he was

25 just coming in, and he said, "Are you still here? What are you waiting

Page 7693

1 for? Get out of here. Go towards the command post."

2 I made myself scarce, taking the path going through a valley

3 towards the woods away from that logistical base, that house. Perhaps 200

4 or 300 metres on, I ran into Deronjic and the head of the police station,

5 Josipovic. They asked me, "What are you doing?" And I answered, "I just

6 had a very unpleasant encounter with the general," and they replied, "We

7 are hiding from him too."

8 The three of us stayed there for about 30 more minutes. In the

9 meantime, Tesic caught up with me, and he took that labour unit to the

10 command post where he handed them over to General Krstic. I did not go

11 together with Tesic to the command post. Instead, I came back to the

12 house that held the logistical unit because I had driven there alone. I

13 took my car and drove back to my office in Bratunac.

14 Q. All right. Now, when you got back to Bratunac, did you attend any

15 meetings later that day?

16 A. No.

17 Q. All right. The next morning, did you -- which would be the day

18 after Srebrenica fell, did you attend any meetings?

19 A. I did. I was asked to come to the command of the Bratunac Brigade

20 in the morning. I went there in the morning. I was sent to a room by the

21 person on the gate. That room was on the ground floor to the right of the

22 building, and I saw General Mladic in that room.

23 Q. Did you see Colonel Blagojevic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Had you been invited to go there by Colonel Blagojevic?

Page 7694

1 A. No.

2 Q. All right. Now, were you alone or was anyone with you?

3 A. I went there to the command alone.

4 Q. All right. Now, how long were you there?

5 A. I stayed perhaps half an hour altogether there.

6 Q. While you were there during that half an hour, did anyone else

7 show up?

8 A. Yes. After I arrived, Aco Tesic came, who was the head of the

9 Secretariat for National Defence, and some two or three minutes later

10 Ljubisav Simic, president of the municipal assembly arrived as well. Then

11 again, after a certain brief period of time a local priest arrived.

12 Q. And I understand he's still in Bratunac but no longer the priest.

13 He left the priesthood; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. He was a caterer.

17 Q. All right. Now, could you tell us a little bit about what

18 happened during that half an hour that you were there on the ground floor

19 of the Bratunac Brigade with General Mladic and the others.

20 A. In my opinion, nothing special happened. The general greeted me

21 and said, "I seldom see you in Srebrenica." I told him, "Well, General, I

22 was discharging other duties and tasks." And then all of a sudden he

23 asked me, "What are we to do with the Muslims in Srebrenica?" I replied

24 to him, "We should see what they want. Perhaps it would be best to send

25 them to Tuzla and Kladanj," since these two cities were closest at the

Page 7695

1 time to the liberated Muslim territory, as they called it then.

2 Q. All right. Now, did you hear or were you able to hear what the

3 others -- whether the others had a conversation with General Mladic?

4 A. Well, he put the same questions to Tesic and Simic. I think that

5 there were no other formal talks there following that. This didn't

6 impress me as an official working meeting. It seemed more to be an

7 invitation to meet the general.

8 We were asked to come at 10.00 to the meeting at the Fontana

9 Hotel. After that, I left the room.

10 Q. Okay. Now, did all four of you -- were all four of you asked to

11 go to the Hotel Fontana, that is you, Mr. Simic, Mr. Tesic, and the

12 priest? If you recall.

13 A. No. I think that he told only me and Simic about this. The other

14 two were not invited, and they did not attend the meeting. They were not

15 present there.

16 Q. All right. Now, you gave a statement to the Office of the

17 Prosecution back on February 25, 1998, approximately, well, well over

18 five -- five years ago. Incidentally, have you given any other statements

19 other than that?

20 A. When?

21 Q. I'm asking since 1998, when you gave your statement to the

22 Prosecution, February 25, did you give them any other statements? Did you

23 meet with them, did you speak with them, or give them statements like you

24 did back then, five years ago plus?

25 A. I did not meet representatives of the OTP after the February of

Page 7696

1 1998. However, I had contacts with Defence counsel for other accused, if

2 that's what you mean.

3 Q. No. I'm talking about the Prosecutor, but we'll talk about the

4 other Defence counsel.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. All right.

7 A. No. No. No, I -- I had only one meeting with the OTP

8 representatives, and that was in February of 1998.

9 Q. Okay. And when was the first time that you were able to see

10 your -- a copy of the statement that you gave to them some five years ago?

11 A. I saw that for the first time three days ago.

12 Q. All right. Now, in looking at your statement, there's no mention

13 of a meeting on the morning of the 12th of July, 1995, at the

14 Bratunac Brigade headquarters on the first floor, between you, the others,

15 and General Mladic; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please explain to us, if you can, why this was not

18 mentioned when you were being questioned by Mr. Ruez on 25 February 1998?

19 A. I considered that at the time not to be important. That meeting,

20 or as some people call it a meeting at the command, did not really impress

21 me as a typical meeting. I might have mentioned this earlier. This

22 seemed more to be an opportunity to get together with the general and to

23 receive an invitation to attend the meeting at 10.00 at the Fontana Hotel.

24 That's why I never mentioned it before. I didn't consider it to be

25 important.

Page 7697

1 Q. All right. Let's talk about the meeting at the Hotel Fontana.

2 Could you please tell us from your recollection who attended the meeting

3 there while you were there.

4 A. That meeting was attended by General Mladic, General Krstic,

5 commander of the Dutch Battalion of UNPROFOR. I'm not positive, but I

6 think his deputy was there as well because there were two men. Then there

7 were representatives of the Muslims Ibro Nuhanovic, Nesim Mandic and a

8 woman whose last name I don't know, but her first name is Camila.

9 Representing the civilian government was President Simic, myself, and

10 Mr. Deronjic. Chief of the public security station from Zvornik,

11 Mr. Vasic, was there as well, and a colonel whose name I don't know and

12 whose face was not familiar to me.

13 Q. Before going to -- to hotel -- to this meeting at the Hotel

14 Fontana, did you stop and pay a visit to Colonel Blagojevic and tell him

15 you were going to this meeting or even just to say hello to him since you

16 were in his headquarters?

17 A. No, I didn't, nor did I see Colonel Blagojevic.

18 Q. All right. Now, you mentioned the Muslim representatives. Did

19 you know any of them?

20 A. I knew Ibro Nuhanovic. I knew him really well.

21 Q. How is it that you knew him?

22 A. Ibro Nuhanovic completed elementary school in Bratunac. After the

23 elementary school, he attended the forestry secondary school in Ilidza. I

24 also attended the first year of that school, and at the same time

25 Nuhanovic was attending third year. Two or three months later, I

Page 7698

1 transferred from the forestry school to the teacher's secondary school in

2 Zvornik.

3 Later on, I had encounters with Nuhanovic at work. He used to

4 work at Sipad, which is a lumber processing company. He also worked in

5 Bratunac for a while. We used to meet frequently, have a drink at the

6 bar, and I knew him well.

7 Q. All right. During the meeting, did you have a speaking role? Did

8 you speak?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you have an opportunity to speak with your friend who was

11 sitting on the other side representing the people in Potocari?

12 A. Yes. After the meeting was finished, once we got up from the

13 table, Nuhanovic talked to the general and expressed concern whether

14 things would unfold in the way it was stated at the meeting at that

15 moment, I came up to Nuhanovic and shook hands with him, and I told him,

16 "Ibro, trust the general."

17 Q. And why did you say that to Mr. Nuhanovic, "Trust the general"?

18 A. Well, I wanted to disperse any mistrust that he felt as to whether

19 things would unfold in the way that was agreed at the meeting.

20 Q. Okay. Now, before we speak about what was agreed at the meeting,

21 have you had an opportunity to watch the video?

22 A. No. Four or five months ago, I quite by chance saw myself on

23 television, in my house. I was writing something at the time and wasn't

24 watching television carefully. I was basically just listening on and

25 writing some of my stuff, and then all of a sudden I saw myself on the

Page 7699

1 screen. I was surprised and perhaps even frightened a little bit, and I

2 was wondering whether I was seeing things right, because I could see

3 myself in the forefront of -- in the close-up at the screen, and I

4 realised that that was a tape from the meeting. This was shown by the

5 federal TV station in Sarajevo.

6 Q. Okay. So it wasn't shown to you back in 1998, and certainly none

7 of the Defence lawyers have shown it to you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Now, to the best of your recollection, could you tell us,

10 describe to us what you believe was said, was agreed upon at the meeting?

11 A. In my opinion, this meeting was chaired by General Mladic. He

12 briefed everyone -- he briefed everyone on the Srebrenica operation, and

13 the purpose of that was to see what would follow. The general proposed to

14 the Muslim representatives to remain in the region and said that should

15 they remain, they would have freedom of movement and freedom to live

16 there, that that would be guaranteed. However, the Muslim side refused

17 that very firmly.

18 The woman called Camila spoke the most of all the Muslim

19 representatives. She was very firm about the fact that the population

20 wanted to leave the area. She was very emphatic about that. General

21 suggested several more times to them that should they wish, they could

22 remain in the area and be given all the guarantees. However, they were

23 very clear that they didn't want that, that they wanted to go to Tuzla and

24 Kladanj. Camila even asked the general about her daughters. I think that

25 she had two daughters, 13 and 14-year-old. So she asked the general to

Page 7700

1 place her daughters in the first transport and that she herself would

2 remain for the last one. The general told her that if she had any anxiety

3 over that that she could bring her daughters to the Fontana Hotel. She

4 thanked the general for that offer and said that all she wanted was for

5 her children to be placed on the first transport.

6 Q. You told your friend, "Trust the general." Did you believe the

7 general that nothing would happen to them, as you just described?

8 A. Absolutely. I had no doubts about that.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. I was convinced of that.

11 Q. Did you think any harm would come to these people at any point?

12 A. It never even crossed my mind. I never thought that would happen.

13 I thought that everything would be done in a proper way, as was agreed at

14 the meeting.

15 Q. All right. Now, after the meeting, were you asked to do anything

16 in particular and, if so, by whom?

17 A. When it was clear -- when it became clear that people wanted to

18 leave, we as representatives of the civilian government were tasked with

19 working on the humanitarian side. We were asked to provide water and food

20 for the people in Potocari. It was a very hot day.

21 Q. Did you do anything in particular, you yourself?

22 A. Yes. After we left the meeting, President Simic and I went to the

23 municipal building, to my office, and there we drew up a plan of what

24 needed to be done. We did in this in haste. We used two of our water

25 tanks to take water to Potocari. These tanks belonged to the fire

Page 7701

1 brigade. Then we also contacted the bakery asking that all bread existing

2 and to be baked be distributed in Potocari. Our bakery is quite small.

3 Therefore, President Simic went to Ljubovija, which is a neighbouring

4 municipality in Serbia, six kilometres away, and he asked them to help us

5 in this regard and to give whatever quantities of bread, juice, cookies,

6 mineral water, and so on to us.

7 We also contacted Zvornik, asking that they assist in providing

8 bread and some other food items.

9 Then we went to Potocari with the first batch of bread, and we

10 encountered grave situation there.

11 Q. What did you see when you got to Potocari?

12 A. I saw an enormous number of people. Potocari is a small place

13 located between two hills, on the road between Bratunac and Srebrenica. In

14 that entire area there were a lot of people, mostly the elderly, and then

15 women, children, men of senior age.

16 I also saw an UNPROFOR unit there which took up a position, so to

17 speak, in order to -- to shield the people there in Potocari from people

18 coming from elsewhere. It was a difficult situation, and I don't think I

19 will ever forget this. I saw many familiar faces. There were people who

20 recognised me. They called me by name.

21 Q. Did you see -- now, did you do anything in particular while you

22 were there?

23 A. I was distributing bread, biscuits. I managed to pour water in

24 containers. People recognised me, as I've said. A man who built my house

25 before the war recognised me too. His name is Nijazija Jahic. He might

Page 7702

1 have been 55 to 58 then. I didn't recognise him initially, and it wasn't

2 until he approached me that I saw that it was him. He asked me whether I

3 could help him and take him and his wife to the bus, enabling them to

4 leave Potocari as soon as possible, which is what I did.

5 Q. Is he alive today?

6 A. Yes, he is. He is alive. And about two years ago -- I think he

7 lives in Central Bosnia now. I'm not sure whether the town is called

8 Breza or Vares, but a Serb from that area who fled to Bratunac went there

9 about two years ago, and then upon his return in Bratunac, he came to say

10 me and he said, "Nijazija sends his greetings and his thanks. He is

11 alive."

12 Q. Now, did you do anything else while you were there, help anyone

13 else onto any buses?

14 A. I did. I recounted this part to the investigator when I spoke to

15 him in 1998. I was recognised by a man named Muhamed. I knew him too.

16 He was originally from the Glogova village, and before the war he used to

17 work in the municipal assembly as a messenger, as a gofer. He asked me

18 for permission to put his uncle on the bus. The uncle was in a wheelchair

19 and couldn't move on his own. I said, "Where is the uncle?" And he

20 showed me to a place 30 or 40 metres away. When we got to the man, I saw

21 another -- another group of people, disabled people in wheelchairs. I

22 said it would be a good idea to take them all ahead of the line and put

23 them on the bus.

24 At a distance of about 150 metres down the road leading to

25 Bratunac I saw General Mladic, and I thought to myself that I would go to

Page 7703

1 the general and tell him about those disabled people, which I did. I came

2 up to the general and said there were about 30 disabled persons in

3 wheelchairs who needed to be escorted onto the bus, and he said, "Go

4 ahead, do it."

5 I went back to Muhamed and said, "All of you now head for the

6 buses." The buses were about 200 metres away down. And he said, "My

7 friends are all away. Who is going to push the wheelchairs?" It was the

8 kind of wheelchair that you had to push. He said, "Wait for a while while

9 I get them." And it took about 20 minutes before they got organised, and

10 then I took them ahead of the queue, and they were put on the buses.

11 Q. All right. A couple of questions. One, on that incident,

12 one -- when you were doing that, were you trying to ethnically cleanse the

13 area? Was that the purpose for doing that, to forcibly remove those

14 people from that area, or was this an act of -- an humanitarian act?

15 A. Ethnic cleansing never occurred to me. It never occurred to me

16 that I was ethnically cleansing anyone while I was doing that. My only

17 thought was how to help those people. Those were very difficult moments.

18 We're talking about very old people here.

19 There was a moment when I thought, What if my parents were in the

20 same situation? You can believe me when I say that I did my best. I did

21 everything I could to help them to the extent of my physical and other

22 abilities. There was no question of ethnic cleansing. It never crossed

23 my mind, and it never seemed to me that there could be anyone who would

24 see it like that.

25 Q. Now, why did you have -- why did you go up to General Mladic to

Page 7704

1 ask permission to see if they could get on the buses?

2 A. Well, I could not explain it now why I went to see him. I didn't

3 have to. I certainly didn't need his permission for that, but I reckoned

4 to myself that maybe I had better go up to him and inform him that I would

5 do that. Not because I needed his permission or because I thought that he

6 would not allow it, I just thought it was better to tell him.

7 Q. Okay. Now, how long were you in Potocari that day?

8 A. Two and a half, maybe three hours.

9 Q. And what did you do after that? I should say where did you go

10 after that?

11 A. Well, it's very probable that I went home for about an hour to

12 have lunch to refresh myself before I went back to the municipal building,

13 to my office, because the job of providing people with water and food

14 wasn't finished. We had to go on.

15 Q. Okay. And later on, do you recall what you did?

16 A. At what time? You mean in the afternoon? That afternoon and

17 evening was spent doing the same activities. That evening I went out to

18 town, and the rest of the time I was mainly in my office. Those were rare

19 moments when I was alone in my office. There was always someone around.

20 The evening found me in my office, and I was receiving a visit of the

21 director of the utilities enterprise, Dragan Mirkovic. We were talking in

22 my office. I believe Simic was receiving some foreigners at the time. He

23 was not in my office.

24 Q. Right. Incidentally, where is your office in relation to

25 Mr. Simic's office?

Page 7705

1 A. We used the same entrance. Before you get to my office there is a

2 smaller office where the secretary sits. My office is on the right-hand

3 side. Simic's is on the left. But we used the same entrance to the

4 waiting-room. My office is on the right. Simic's is on the left.

5 Q. All right. Now, about what time in the evening did this gentleman

6 show up? Mirkovic, was it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. He was in my office for quite awhile. It was already 9.00 p.m.,

9 and we were still sitting there. But much earlier, around 7.00 perhaps.

10 Q. Now, while you were there in your office with Mr. Mirkovic, did

11 you notice anything unusual?

12 A. I noticed looking out of the window that three buses had arrived,

13 because the municipal building is facing the street and there were three

14 buses downstairs. I noticed they were full.

15 Mirkovic and I then got out of my office, and as we were coming

16 out of the municipal building we saw a bus parked right outside. There

17 were many people standing. There were many people inside the bus and one

18 policeman standing outside.

19 Q. Did you recognise the policeman that was standing outside guarding

20 the bus?

21 A. No, no. I had never see him before.

22 Q. When you say a policeman, was that a military policeman or a

23 civilian policeman?

24 A. No, no. Those were civilian policemen wearing their usual blue

25 police uniforms.

Page 7706

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. The militia.

3 Q. Now, while you were out there seeing those buses what, if

4 anything, did you do?

5 A. Standing there by the buses, I saw that inside the bus a man who

6 was standing in the middle of the bus was knocking on the window. I came

7 closer and recognised the man who was knocking. It was Omo Jahic from the

8 Bljecevo village who used to work in the mine before the war. He was also

9 a deputy to the municipal assembly, and I knew him.

10 I said to the policeman, "This man in there wants to tell me

11 something. May I go in?" And the policeman gave me his permission. I

12 got onto the bus, took the seat next to the driver, and said, "Omo, what

13 do you want?" And he said, "Buco, brother, can you give me some water?"

14 I looked out the door and said to the policeman, "Can I give this man some

15 water?" And he said, "Yes." He was holding a large jerrycan of five

16 litres. I passed it on, and when the others in the bus saw it they all

17 raised their small jerrycans, and we served everybody on the bus. Since

18 there were bathrooms on the ground floor we filled jerrycans with water

19 and passed them on inside the buses. We did the same with the second bus,

20 and we certainly passed certainly no less than 50 jerrycans of water. It

21 was a terribly hot, scorching night.

22 Q. Did you see anyone else that night while you were there?

23 A. That night I ran into Deronjic in the street, because I had seen

24 other buses in the other part of the town closer to Jeliste, and I asked

25 Deronjic, "What's going on here?" And he was very sharp when he replied.

Page 7707

1 He said we were being set up by the people from Milici. They are sending

2 these people. And he mentioned Rajko Dukic. He was very angry and

3 indignant about this too.

4 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: Who is Rajko Dukic?

5 A. Rajko Dukic is a man from Milici, director of the bauxite mine and

6 the number one man in Milici. Deronjic's counterpart in Milici. He held

7 the same position. In fact, what Deronjic meant for Bratunac, he meant

8 for Milici. Perhaps even had more importance.

9 Anyway, Deronjic was very angry and very upset that these people

10 were being sent over to Bratunac.

11 Q. So from that conversation, at least you got the impression that

12 Mr. Deronjic thought that these buses had come from Milici and had been

13 sent by his counterpart in Milici, Mr. Dukic; correct?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Did -- did he express -- other than expressing anger, did

16 Mr. Deronjic ask you or order you or request that you contact

17 Mr. Blagojevic, perhaps, to see what he could do to get these buses out of

18 Bratunac that came from Milici?

19 A. No. On the contrary. I told Deronjic, "Commander Deronjic, work

20 your own lines of communication to inform somebody upstairs and ask them

21 what's going on." I thought that he was higher up and he was better

22 connected with the political leadership and probably the military

23 leadership too. I did not mention Colonel Blagojevic at all either in the

24 sense that he should inform him or that he should ask him to do anything.

25 Q. All right. Now you -- how many -- how many of these police

Page 7708

1 officers were guarding each bus? Can you recall?

2 A. Very few. I don't even think that each bus had its own policeman

3 guarding it. In my estimate, I think there was one policeman for every

4 two buses. In my opinion, very few people were -- very few men were

5 providing security for the buses.

6 At one point I saw a driver standing outside a municipal building,

7 and I saw only two policemen guarding three buses, the three buses that is

8 were outside the municipal building.

9 Q. Okay. In light of the time, Your Honour, if we could break here

10 and we'll pick up?

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll have 30 minutes' break. We'll resume at

12 ten minutes to eleven.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas. And how long do you think your

16 direct examination will last?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, hopefully we will finish before this session.

18 I think maybe an hour, maybe less.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Maybe less.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may proceed.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Is there a problem though?

23 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no. I just want to know.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

25 Q. Mr. Davidovic, we were speaking about the evening of July 12,

Page 7709

1 1995, when you were out there on the streets of Bratunac and you saw the

2 buses that you believed, after having spoken with Mr. Deronjic, had come

3 from Milici; right? I'm going to pick up from there.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, right before we left off, you indicated that they -- there

6 was one guard perhaps for one or two buses, one police officer for one or

7 two buses. Do you recall stating that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did that concern you at that point in time, that here were these

10 buses full of Muslim men inside the town of Bratunac, guarded by one or

11 two people per bus?

12 A. Yes. That made my quite anxious, because I thought there were

13 very few police guarding the buses, and we had also received a

14 notification that out there at the playground the Muslim men were calling

15 out to each other and communicating. That caused additional concern, that

16 they might get out of the buses. And there were very few guards at the

17 playground too. So we sent some retired people from among the residents

18 who had their own weapons to go to the playground and create an impression

19 that there were enough guards. And the bus drivers, in order to stop this

20 communication and the shouting, turned on the engines of the buses so that

21 the noise would prevent people from calling out to each other and

22 shouting.

23 Q. Okay. Now, you said that you -- you asked some retired residents

24 to go there so that there would be a make-believe image that the buses

25 were guarded heavily, I guess. Is there any reason why you or

Page 7710

1 Mr. Deronjic did not suggest to go to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters

2 and demand or request the brigade commander to bring his soldiers into

3 town to guard the buses?

4 A. Well, we did not go to the command because we knew that there was

5 practically no one at that command. All the troops were out in the field,

6 on the front, together with the commanders. So we did not ask for any

7 assistance from the army. We contacted instead the head of the police

8 station, Mr. Josipovic, asking him for assistance in terms of providing

9 his own men as guards, but he was not able to help out much.

10 In addition to the retired persons, however, we also engaged some

11 very young boys, aged 15, 16, 17, to go to the playground and create the

12 impression that the security was beefed up, because there were no

13 able-bodied men in town, in Bratunac. There were only women, children,

14 and the elderly. Everyone else was already engaged on the front line.

15 Q. To your knowledge or from your observations was any food provided

16 to those folks that were in the buses?

17 A. Let me tell you one thing, there was no organised, continuous

18 supply. Something was occasionally sporadically provided to individual

19 people or groups. If somebody knew someone, then they would get some food

20 or water to them, but there was no organised supply.

21 Q. All right. Now, anything else unusual that night, before we move

22 on to the next morning which would be two days after the fall of

23 Srebrenica, July 13, 1995?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 7711

1 A. I don't -- I can't think of anything important.

2 Q. Okay. Well, then, let's talk about the next day, the following

3 morning. How did that start?

4 A. You mean the 14th?

5 Q. That, the 13th. This is --

6 A. The 13th, yes. In the course of the night, those buses left

7 Bratunac. They vanished before the morning. I only observed that

8 individual persons were brought to the school building not far from the

9 municipality building, about a hundred metres away from the municipal

10 building. Two, three, or five persons at a time would be tank out of a

11 bus and brought to the school building.

12 Since I knew the local policemen, I asked them, "Who are these

13 people? What are you doing with them?" And they answered, "Those are men

14 who were captured or had surrendered up there on the road." And maybe

15 some Muslim men simply wandered into Bratunac by mistake and were brought

16 in, taken into custody to the school building.

17 That answer was enough for me. And I think after that, I went up

18 there to the command to see the assistant for logistics, Mr. Trisic,

19 Dragoslav Trisic.

20 Q. All right. Before we talk about that, when you had this

21 conversation with the police officer, did you ask him who authorised for

22 these people to come to Bratunac and to be detained in buildings that

23 would appear to be property of the Bratunac municipality? Did you ask him

24 that question?

25 A. No, I did not. But nobody in the municipal government was asked

Page 7712

1 to put the school building at their disposal for that purpose. There are

2 two primary schools in Bratunac. The primary school to which people were

3 brought and where they were detained was not operating as a school at the

4 time because it had been destroyed in 1992 and was not fit for teaching

5 purposes. We have another primary school building which was serving as a

6 school. So that from 1992, from July 1992 to July 1995, that other

7 primary school was standing empty, demolished, with no windows. And I

8 don't know anything about the reasons why those people were brought there

9 and detained.

10 Q. Let me go back and ask my question. Did you ask the police

11 officer or anyone else who authorised, who ordered that those men be

12 brought there?

13 A. I didn't ask, and I don't know who ordered it.

14 Q. All right. Now, you said that you went after that to the

15 Bratunac Brigade headquarters and you met with Mr. Trisic, the assistant

16 commander for rear services; correct?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. What was the reason for having -- for going there and meeting with

19 Mr. Trisic?

20 A. I went to the command base to see Mr. Trisic because he was the

21 person at the command who was in charge with liaison with the

22 municipality. Generally speaking, our contacts with the brigade went

23 between the commander and the local government, and the commander

24 transferred most of that job to his assistant because the -- the

25 activities covered by the Executive Board fell within the purview on their

Page 7713

1 side of the logistics unit.

2 So I went to see that man to collect some information and see what

3 the situation was on the front line. Apart from being assistant for

4 logistics, Trisic was a former schoolmate of mine, a good friend.

5 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday we talked -- during your period -- during

6 that period when the Bratunac Brigade had been formed, do you know how

7 many commanders had come and gone approximately?

8 A. I know that many commanders came and went, but from the time when

9 I took up my position in the municipality - that was in October, October

10 1994 - there were two commanders. The one who was commander at the time

11 when I took up my post in the municipality was Ognjenovic, and just before

12 the Srebrenica operation started, he was replaced by Commander Blagojevic.

13 Q. What about the assistant commander for rear services? How many

14 had come and gone during the period that you had dealings with the

15 Bratunac Brigade in your official capacity?

16 A. There was one and only assistant commander for logistics from 1992

17 to 1995 and that was Dragoslav Trisic. He did not change.

18 Q. All right. Now, when you -- how long did you stay with Mr. Trisic

19 that morning?

20 A. From the time I came into his office perhaps 20 minutes passed

21 before I left.

22 Q. Okay. Anything in particular -- was anything in particular

23 discussed during that meeting?

24 A. He told me briefly what was going on on the front line, nothing in

25 particular, but he said one thing, "Do you know who was captured and was

Page 7714

1 being held in detention here?" And I said, "I don't know." And he said

2 "Resid Sinanovic. He's now in the detention of the military police."

3 Q. Okay. And what else?

4 A. I said to Dragan Trisic, "Dragan, I would like to see Resid if

5 possible. Where is he exactly?" He said to me, "He's down there with the

6 military police in the custody of Zlatan Calanovic." And I said, "What do

7 you think? Should we go and see him? Could that be done?" Trisic said,

8 "I will not go." I said to Trisic, "I would like to see Resid," because

9 Resid is a man with whom I worked from 1980 to 1994 at the police. He was

10 my chief, and I was his deputy. In addition to that, Resid and I were

11 close friends. We were friends even before I started working for the

12 police and on finishing my term with the police, we continued socialising.

13 We were very good friends, family friends. This is why I expressed my

14 desire to go and see Resid.

15 Trisic said to me, "Here's the phone number. Call

16 Zlatan Calanovic and go and ask him if you can see Resid." I took the

17 number. As soon as I also knew Zlatan Calanovic, we were acquaintances, I

18 called him up and I asked him, "Zlatan, can I see Resid," to which he

19 replied, "Sure, why not." I asked when I could come, and he said, "Right

20 away." I said, "I'll come now, then."

21 Zlatan Calanovic and the detention unit where Resid was held was

22 30 to 40 metres from the command. I offered to Trisic to come along with

23 me and he refused, and then I said to him, "All right. I'll go by

24 myself."

25 I went to Zlatan's. I saw him in his office. I sat there, and he

Page 7715

1 went to get Resid from the place where he was detained. He probably

2 didn't say to Resid that I was waiting for him in Zlatan's office. I

3 concluded that based on the expression on Resid's face when he entered

4 into the office and saw me there.

5 I got up, extended my hand to him. We shook hands. He clinched

6 my hand, and we stayed there for quite awhile. He pulled me to him and

7 kissed me. I felt uncomfortable. I thought that he was expecting me to

8 help him, and I told him right away that I wouldn't be able to help him

9 then, and I didn't consider that I should, that I need to help him,

10 because I believed that Resid would be treated in accordance with the laws

11 governing the treatment of prisoners of war. Therefore, I thought that he

12 would be either exchanged or something else. Therefore, I told him that I

13 worked at the -- that I worked with the municipal government, that this

14 was a military operation, and he said to me, "Yes, I know. I heard when I

15 came to the municipality. We heard it on the radio. It was announced on

16 the radio. I do not expect any help from you now. I'm simply grateful

17 that you came to see me and to talk to me."

18 We sat there. Zlatan went out, and we stayed there for an hour,

19 perhaps a bit more, talking. There were no visible traces on Resid. I

20 asked him whether somebody abused him, whether he was hungry. He said,

21 "No, I'm not hungry. Nobody beat me. Nobody harassed me."

22 So we stayed together for an hour, and when we parted -- or,

23 rather, Zlatan Calanovic came back somewhat later. Since both of them

24 were lawyers, they exchanged a few words. All three of us were avid

25 anglers, and we talked about fishing as well. In the end, Zlatan and I

Page 7716

1 gave a packet of cigarettes each to Resid. We said goodbye, and that was

2 our last meeting.

3 Q. Okay. And I take it you know what happened to this gentleman.

4 A. His brother called me, his middle brother, Zihnija who used to be

5 a JNA officer before the war, a captain serving in Skopje. Maybe some six

6 months after July he asked me if I knew of Resid's fate. He called me

7 from Skopje. I don't know how he got my telephone number. And he asked

8 me this and I told him I had seen Resid and I believe that he had gone to

9 Tuzla or Kladanj. He told me that was not the case and that Resid was

10 missing. I know that Resid's wife was in Germany, that she went there

11 sometime in 1992 or 1993 on the UNHCR truck. He sent his wife and

12 children to Germany. So then I asked him perhaps Resid is in Germany with

13 his family, and he said, "No, no. I talk to his wife almost every night,

14 but he's not there." He had some information that some of the Muslim

15 prisoners were sent to work in the mines in Serbia, and he was wondering

16 whether Resid was there. I told him, "Zihnija, I know nothing about that.

17 I don't think that's the case." And he asked me to verify this

18 information through my channels. After that, he didn't call me again.

19 He called me perhaps five months ago. He's in Sarajevo now

20 working for the state border service. He called me to get some

21 certificates for Resid in the municipality, birth certificates or marriage

22 certificates, because his wife needed that to get something settled

23 regarding the apartment. However, Resid is gone, to my regret.

24 Q. All right. Now, this is the 13th. Is there anything else of

25 significance on that day that we need to discuss before we move on to the

Page 7717

1 next day?

2 A. I don't think that anything important happened that day.

3 Q. All right. So nothing that you recollect significant after you

4 left the Bratunac Brigade, after your visit? If you don't recollect,

5 that's okay.

6 A. No.

7 Q. So let's move on to the 14th, 14th of July, the next day. Do you

8 recall anything unusual happening that particular day? Does anything

9 stick out in your mind?

10 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, this question is too broad. It seems to

11 me a fishing expedition.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: No, it's not, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: You have to lead --

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I can lead, I can lead. I don't want any

15 objections. I did that yesterday; I drew an objection on a preparatory

16 question.

17 JUDGE LIU: Did you? I think Mr. McCloskey is very cooperative.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

19 Q. The morning of July 14th, sir. Could you please explain to us

20 what happened, if anything?

21 A. Sometime in the morning hours - it could have been at around

22 10.00 - the secretary of the SDS called me asking me to come up to the

23 party offices right away. I went there. These offices are perhaps 200

24 metres from the municipal building. I entered the office where the

25 secretary sat, and there by the coffee table was a man in a uniform, and I

Page 7718

1 could tell that he was a colonel. The man was not familiar to me. That

2 was the first time I saw him.

3 The SDS offices consist of two rooms, and from that office where

4 the secretary was, one enters into the other room which is behind the

5 door. So this colonel introduced himself, said that he was Colonel Dana

6 [as interpreted]. He offered --

7 Q. What was his name again? Who was the Colonel?

8 A. The name was Colonel Beara.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. He asked me to sit down, and he talked to me for about ten minutes

11 unofficially, as if we were acquaintances. He offered me a drink. I

12 accepted it. And after that, he suggested that we go to the other office,

13 the neighbouring office, because there was some people there to wanted to

14 talk to me.

15 I opened the door, entered the adjacent office, and I saw two

16 officers there.

17 Q. Let me stop you there for one second. I want to go step-by-step.

18 You're at the SDS office; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You're in the first room as you walk in.

21 A. That's right. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. Now, you just indicated that Colonel Beara offered you a drink.

23 That's the SDS office. How could he be off -- how could he --

24 A. Yes, that's right, in that first room, the first office.

25 Q. If he's in that office and that's not his office, how could he be

Page 7719

1 offering you a drink?

2 A. I don't know how he had that drink, but there was a bottle on the

3 coffee table in front of him. He offered me a drink. It wasn't the

4 secretary who offered it.

5 Q. Okay. So there was a bottle right there, and he -- okay. All

6 right.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, when you went into the other room, who did you see?

9 A. I saw two officers there. One is lieutenant colonel, the other

10 one was colonel. I did not know them.

11 Q. Did they give you their names?

12 A. They did not.

13 Q. When you walked in did Colonel Beara stay behind drinking or did

14 he also come into the room as well?

15 A. He remained in the first office. I went into the other room by

16 myself.

17 Q. Okay. So what happened when you walked in and you saw the colonel

18 and lieutenant colonel?

19 A. I greeted them. I extended my hand, and almost immediately they

20 asked me what we had in terms of construction machines. I told them that

21 at the brick factory we had a machine called --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the name of the

23 machine.


25 Q. Please stop. You need to speak slowly and clearly. So what was

Page 7720

1 the name the machine or what kind of machine? Describe it.

2 A. The machine was called Ult.

3 Q. Ult?

4 A. Yes, Ult. U-l-t, perhaps.

5 Q. Okay, go ahead.

6 A. They asked whether we could put it at their disposal, and I said

7 yes. I had some assumptions as to why they were asking this machine from

8 us. I thought they might need it to dig trenches, to continue their

9 military operations at the front line. However, there had already been an

10 incident in Kravica in the premises of the co-op --

11 Q. Let me stop you here. We're going to go step-by-step. So you now

12 mention there was an incident in Kravica. This is the morning of the

13 14th. When did you hear about this incident?

14 A. I heard about it just before going to the office. Two men came

15 or, rather, two directors of co-ops came to see me. The first one was

16 Jovan Nikolic, and Dragan Nikolic was the director of the co-op in Kravica

17 they came and told me this.

18 Q. Okay. So when they asked you for the Ult, one of your assumptions

19 was that they might need it for that incident. Is that what you're

20 suggesting?

21 A. Yes. Those were my guesses. They didn't tell me why they needed

22 it, but I thought that it was either for military operations, for digging

23 trenches. I did not ask them why they needed the machine.

24 Q. Okay. So what happened?

25 A. However, thinking that they might also need it to bury people, I

Page 7721

1 remembered Djurkovic who was the operator of the machine, because I heard

2 that in 1992, he was involved in it and felt badly ever since. I wanted

3 to protect the man from possibly getting involved in it again, so I told

4 the officers that they could have the machine but not the operator because

5 he wasn't really suitable for that, to which one of them sharply and

6 perhaps even rudely asked me, "Is it really your job to decide who will be

7 operating the machine and who will not?" I said, "I apologise. This was

8 just a comment of mine."

9 Q. Okay. Were you frightened at all of these two men or... ?

10 A. I wasn't afraid of them, but the tone that he used didn't make me

11 frightened but made me realise that I should not get into the discussion

12 with them.

13 Q. All right. Now, this incident, this encounter at the SDS office

14 on July 14th and the conversation with these two officers with respect to

15 the Ult was not mentioned by you five years ago when you gave your

16 statement to members of the Office of the Prosecution; correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct, but I didn't think at the time that it was

18 very important and that I needed to mention it.

19 Q. Well, why didn't you think it was important?

20 A. I thought that the Ult machine would be used by the army for

21 military operations. These were just my guesses. Nobody told me what the

22 machines would actually be used for, so that's why I believed at the time

23 that it wasn't that important, that I didn't need to mention it to

24 investigators.

25 Q. Okay. Since then and as you -- as you are here today, have you

Page 7722

1 heard what happened to the men, the Muslim men that were detained,

2 captured, separated? Have you heard what happened to them?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. Lack of foundation.

5 There's only the suggestion of a few men in this person's knowledge that

6 even had been detained. So a --

7 MR. KARNAVAS: It's a ridiculous statement.

8 JUDGE LIU: I could not understand you, Mr. McCloskey.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Under this person's testimony thus far, he has not

10 established but yet just a very few people. Mr. Resid has been detained.

11 A few people on buses, but he said they got shipped out to Kladanj. So

12 I -- the thousands of people that we all know about have not been a part

13 of the discussion but they were part of the question.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Karnavas, could you please be more specific.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

16 Q. Let me, for the purposes of speeding the process up and since

17 we've already covered this, I'll ask some leading background questions.

18 You indicated that you saw men in buses on the night of the 12th;

19 correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. You indicated that you saw men in the school building that wasn't

22 used at the time. I believe it's called Vuk Karadzic; correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. You learned that there were men in the stadium; correct? And you

25 saw that as well?

Page 7723

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, from the Kravica incident, did you ever learn approximately

3 how many people were killed in that incident?

4 A. I don't know where these people were from, the ones who had been

5 brought to Kravica. I didn't see those people. However, I heard that

6 between 7 to 800 people had been taken there. Jovan Nikolic told me this,

7 as did Dragan Nikolic when they came on the 14th to the municipal building

8 to my office.

9 Q. Okay. Now, again today is 19 -- 2004. The Prosecution spoke to

10 you five years plus and never in between. Since that period of time, as

11 you stand here today, have you heard approximately how many people went

12 missing as a result of the events after the fall of Srebrenica?

13 A. I heard that. It was announced in the media as well. I heard the

14 figure, and it ranges from 5 to 6 to even 8.000 people who went missing in

15 the Srebrenica operation.

16 Q. All right. Now, when you heard that in the media, did you believe

17 it?

18 A. In my opinion, the figure seems high. Whether I believe it or

19 not, I can't be specific about that. What is certain is that a lot of

20 people perished, a lot of people. Perhaps as many as the number

21 indicated, but a lot of people.

22 Q. All right. Now --

23 A. I heard various stories, how a lot of corpses were found in the

24 forests on the road from Srebrenica to Tuzla. Also in Kravica. I heard

25 that there were such incidents in Zvornik municipality as well. I think

Page 7724

1 that Pilica was mentioned and some other locations. Therefore, I think

2 that there were a lot of people.

3 Q. Did you hear of any burial operations, a cover-up effort to cover

4 up these atrocities?

5 A. I have. I heard about that. I heard about the attempt to move

6 the mass graves such as, for example, from Glogova to Srebrenica

7 municipality. I don't know the exact sites, but I know the names of the

8 villages.

9 Q. All right. Now, you were questioned -- you were questioned back

10 in 1998 about burials, and I believe Glogova was one of the areas

11 that -- where there had been some discussion between you and Mr. Ruez. Do

12 you remember reading that when you just saw your statement the other day?

13 A. I didn't know exactly what the investigator was asking me about

14 then. I didn't know whether he meant Serb gravesites or the Muslim ones.

15 I didn't think that he asked me about the Muslim gravesites but that he

16 asked me about the gravesites in general, which was part of my duties at

17 the municipality. We had to provide coffins for funerals, and we

18 organised a lot of mass funerals in one day. We would have 50 or 40

19 people buried in one day. So I spent a lot of my time at work in taking

20 care of this, because the municipality had to provide everything,

21 including the coffins. So I thought that the investigator was interested

22 in that and not in this other matter. This is why I mentioned Glogova. I

23 said that Serbs had not been buried there, that it was a Muslim village,

24 and that the Serbs were buried in other cemeteries, in Bratunac and so on,

25 and this is why I didn't answer his question about these gravesites that

Page 7725

1 had been moved. I did not take part in Muslim funerals, only in the

2 funerals of Serbs.

3 Q. All right. Now, how far is Kravica, not the warehouse, but

4 Kravica from Glogova?

5 A. Perhaps five kilometres. Four to five.

6 Q. All right. And was there an incident that occurred there where a

7 lot of Serbs were slaughtered by the Muslim forces, Naser Oric's folks?

8 A. There were incidents in Kravica during Christmas of 1993. Also in

9 December of 1992 in Bjelovac where 109 people were killed in one day. That

10 was the funeral at which the most people were buried in one day. There

11 were also incidents in the village of Fakovici, Zagoni. In each of these

12 cases, about 30 Serbs were killed, mostly civilians and fewer military

13 servicemen.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. Is it possible, sir, that you might have been

15 confused when talking to Mr. Ruez was talking to you about Glogova and

16 Serbs, and you thought that it was Serbs being buried as a result of the

17 150, I believe, Serbs that were slaughtered by Naser Oric's soldiers?

18 A. Well, the investigator must not have been very decisive or clear

19 when he was asking questions, because I thought he was speaking about Serb

20 funerals. And then he said, "No, I'm not asking you about Serb funerals.

21 I'm talking about the burials and funerals of Muslims." And if he had said

22 so from the start, I certainly wouldn't have been telling him about Serb

23 funerals. Why would any Serb funerals take place in Glogova, a Muslim

24 village?

25 I think that the investigator was definitely not very clear there.

Page 7726

1 Q. All right. Now -- but while you were describing the incident in

2 Kravica, you referred to the Muslims as Turks. Do you recall reading that

3 in your statement, when you said the Turks did such-and-such?

4 A. Well, I don't know how my tongue slipped. It just came out. I

5 blurted it out because it was the jargon in my community at the time.

6 People referred to them as Turks. They called us Vlasi and Chetniks, and

7 it must have somehow slipped across my tongue, because I don't understand

8 to this day how it could have -- how it could have happened that I

9 referred to them in that way.

10 Q. All right. I just have a couple of more areas. First of all,

11 Mr. Borovcanin? Do you know him?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. How is it that you know him?

14 A. I met Mr. Borovcanin in 1992. He came into Bratunac from Kladanj

15 and he was commander of the police station.

16 Q. During those days did you have any contact with him,

17 Mr. Borovcanin?

18 A. I was in touch with Mr. Borovcanin and we were good friends

19 because my wife also worked with the police. That was another connection

20 between us. Later, Borovcanin was transferred to Bijeljina, and he was

21 promoted into a general of the police force. There was a ceremony, a

22 promotion ceremony at Bratunac for him that I attended.

23 Q. During those days, July 12th, 13th, 14th, did you come into

24 contact with Mr. Borovcanin? That's my concrete question.

25 A. I did have one encounter with Mr. Borovcanin. It could have been

Page 7727

1 the 11th or the 12th. I'm not quite sure.

2 Since his logistical base was on the premises of the Lovac

3 restaurant in Bratunac, he came to me and said that his unit had run out

4 of food, and he asked me if I had any tinned food in stock. I called up

5 my staff and asked if we had any to spare and then replied to Borovcanin

6 that we could spare 1.000 tins. He promised to refund us when he gets his

7 own supplies, but that never happened. It doesn't matter. In any case,

8 we gave him 1.000 cans of food. That was my only encounter with him

9 regarding this operation.

10 Q. When you saw him, did he tell you that he had been -- did he

11 mention if he had been seconded to and was working under or subordinated

12 to General Krstic?

13 A. No, he didn't, and I did not broach the subject myself, and I

14 didn't ask him anything, nor was I really interested in that hierarchy. I

15 was aware that he was in charge of a special unit, but who was above and

16 who was below him, I didn't really want to know, and he didn't volunteer

17 any information.

18 Q. During those days that we've discussed, did you come into contact

19 with Mr. Blagojevic at all, 12th -- we've talked about the 11th, 12th,

20 13th or thereafter. During those critical days, did you come into contact

21 with Mr. Blagojevic?

22 A. At the time of the Srebrenica operation, I never ran into

23 Blagojevic and never had any contact with him.

24 Q. All right. Now, over the years, since -- now we're closing in

25 close to ten years now, it's nine plus -- or nine, did you ever hear from

Page 7728

1 anyone or come across any documents that would lead you to believe that

2 Colonel Blagojevic was directly or indirectly involved in any of the

3 activities, any of these atrocities?

4 A. No. No. I mean, really. I never heard from anyone that

5 Colonel Blagojevic was involved in any atrocities regarding Srebrenica.

6 You said yourself that more than ten years have elapsed. The mere fact

7 that Blagojevic was arrested caused a great uproar in Bratunac, and

8 disbelief, because Blagojevic is known in Bratunac as a good officer, a

9 good person, a man who has understanding for everyone, who is willing to

10 help everyone, and who wouldn't harm anyone. I never heard from anyone

11 that he was involved in anything bad.

12 What you can most often hear in Bratunac is that he is a man who

13 found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time.

14 I don't know if I put it right, but he really didn't have anything

15 to do with anything there, and it just so happened that he was named

16 commander of that unit in Bratunac at that time.

17 Q. All right. One final question. Before Mr. Blagojevic, we had

18 another commander that you had some contact with, and that was

19 Mr. Ognjenovic; correct? I'm pronouncing --

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Did you have any contact with that gentleman?

22 A. You mean Ognjenovic?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Well, you see, when I came to work for the municipal government in

25 October 1994, I continued the work related to logistical support for the

Page 7729

1 brigade, and in my recollection -- rather, I don't have a good memory of

2 Commander Ognjenovic. He constantly put pressure on us. I had the

3 impression that he was not particularly fond of the civilian authorities.

4 He constantly came up with some demands that we were not able to meet. He

5 seemed to have a mania of grandeur in those demands. Give us new

6 uniforms. Give us more food and better food. And I -- we kept telling

7 him, "We don't have the resources. The enterprises are not working at

8 full capacity. You must understand." And whenever we asked him to do

9 something for us, to release from his troops some people who were needed

10 in the labour force to improve the production of food, to give the army

11 more cigarettes, he would not relieve the soldiers. How would we then be

12 able to go halfway to meet his requests?

13 And I also had the impression that he was not particularly liked

14 among his troops. He was arrogant in his treatment of his own soldiers,

15 and they had no love lost for him either. That was my impression of these

16 two men.

17 Q. With that -- with that background, do you know whether he had some

18 sort of policy that he was implementing which was perhaps why he was

19 asking you for all of these resources, to make the life miserable and

20 unbearable for the folks in Srebrenica so they would be ethnically

21 cleansed from the area? Did he ever express this policy to you?

22 A. Well, it seems to me that he was more intent on making our life

23 difficult than the life of Muslims. He was so insistent in his demands.

24 But I don't think he was doing anything in particular to make life

25 impossible for the Muslims. I think he was making trouble more for the

Page 7730

1 civilian authorities. I don't know if I was clear enough. He spent more

2 time squeezing us and putting pressure. I cannot find the right words

3 for -- to describe his attitude towards us, but he was a very unpleasant

4 man and very difficult to work with.

5 Q. Okay. And I failed to mention earlier or to ask you, was this

6 some sort of a process to take care of the abandoned property of those who

7 had left the area? So Muslim leaving the Bratunac area, going someplace

8 else and then a Serb coming in to occupy that premises? Was there some

9 sort of a process? Could you please explain that to the Court?

10 A. At the times of war operations, a lot of Serb refugees came to

11 Bratunac, people from Central Bosnia, from Zenica, from other towns, and

12 even people who were affected by war operations in Croatia, from the Knin

13 area, came to our town. We have some records saying -- showing that

14 refugees from 66 municipalities of the former Yugoslavia came to Bratunac.

15 We put them up into vacated Serbian and Muslim properties, and we did so

16 in keeping with a government decision on the accommodation of displaced

17 persons and refugees. In other words, we allocated properties to these

18 people for temporary use, temporary use. That was the term, meaning until

19 the return of rightful owners. I don't know if I put this clearly enough.

20 Q. I think you have.

21 A. Excuse me. Just one more thing. In our municipal government, we

22 had a special service in charge of these affairs, and I think there is one

23 person that would tell you more about this much, that's Zlatan Calanovic.

24 He headed at the time the service in charge of everything that had to do

25 with allocation of property to refugees and displaced persons.

Page 7731

1 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Davidovic. I have no further questions

2 for you. However, Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. McCloskey, the Prosecutor, may

3 have some questions as well as the Judges. I hope you can be as honest

4 and complete with your answers as you have been with me.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions?

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask

7 a couple of questions, but I don't know whether it is a good idea for me

8 to start now or maybe wait until after the break. I don't think my

9 questioning would take more than ten minutes.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, we still have a few minutes left in this

11 session, and we don't see that the testimony of this witness is somehow

12 related to your client. Try to make your questions as simple as possible

13 so that we can finish it in five or six minutes.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Davidovic.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. I understand that you served as President of the Executive Board

19 of the Bratunac municipality from October 1994 to 1997.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In that period, as President of the Executive Board, you

22 supervised public enterprises in your municipality; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Would I be right in saying that the utilities enterprise is one of

25 the public enterprises in the Bratunac municipality?

Page 7732

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In this connection, I want to ask you one thing. You said that

3 that evening, on the 12th, in the evening, you talked to Dragan Mirkovic.

4 Which post did he occupy then?

5 A. He was director of the utilities enterprise, public utilities

6 enterprise.

7 Q. Did the utilities enterprise have any machinery at their disposal?

8 A. They did have a small excavator called Skip.

9 Q. In this connection, I want to ask you -- what would be the

10 procedure to follow it --

11 JUDGE LIU: Well -- well -- yes, please continue, but you have to

12 bear in mind that the interpreters have a hard time to catch up.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

14 try to slow down because we are speaking the same language.

15 Q. Mr. Davidovic, what would be the procedure to follow if the army

16 needs to use that Skip machine or any other asset of a public utilities

17 enterprise?

18 A. I think there are several ways for the army to get it. They can

19 get it directly from the utilities enterprise. They can go through the

20 Executive Board, and they can also go through the local Secretariat for

21 National Defence, which secretariat would requisition the asset in

22 question. Those are three procedural possibilities.

23 Q. You mentioned a moment ago a relevant case where you met with two

24 officers you didn't know. Would I be right in saying that they did not

25 belong to the Bratunac Brigade, because you didn't know them?

Page 7733

1 A. Yes, you are right.

2 Q. So these officers came along from somewhere outside, and they

3 wanted to requisition this machine from the brickworks specifically. Would

4 it be possible to bypass the regular requisitioning procedure and take

5 that machine without going through the Bratunac Brigade? Would these

6 officers be able to requisition the machine without ever contacting the

7 Bratunac Brigade and without following the procedure?

8 A. I don't understand the question. Do you mean to say whether it

9 could be requisitioned without consulting the Executive Board and without

10 taking a decision on the requisitioning?

11 Q. That's what I mean.

12 A. I would say everything is possible in war. Bratunac is a small

13 place. Many people -- in fact everyone knows everyone else, and it's

14 possible to do things without strictly following the procedure. Would

15 that answer satisfy you?

16 Q. Can I take your reply to mean yes, it was possible for these

17 officers to requisition the asset, the machine, from the enterprise,

18 directly from the utilities enterprise without following the procedure,

19 without going through the Bratunac Brigade or the Executive Board?

20 A. Well, they had to have contacts with somebody from the enterprise.

21 Maybe they could get somebody from the Executive Board to give a call to

22 the utilities enterprise, or maybe they could get somebody from the

23 national defence secretariat to get them to instruct the enterprise to

24 allocate this machine. Yes, it's possible. But one possibility is

25 certain, the possibility that the procedure is not followed and that

Page 7734

1 personal connections are used instead.

2 Q. So it's possible that this machine could have been requisitioned

3 without any steps being taken through or by the Bratunac Brigade?

4 A. Yes, it's possible. Everything is possible in wartime. That is

5 my belief.

6 Q. Thank you. Just one more clarification. You said today at one

7 point, "Burials were part of my job in the municipal government. We had a

8 lot of mass funerals, and that was the job of the municipal government to

9 provide for the organisation of funerals and supply of coffins."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you have other activities in your purview in cooperation with

12 the civilian defence force regarding the mopping up of the terrain?

13 A. With the civilian defence, concerning the mopping up of the

14 terrain. I don't know what you mean.

15 Q. I'll try to put it in simpler terms. At that time, that means in

16 1995, did you have a municipal headquarters of civilian defence?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was it one of the jobs, one of the tasks of the civilian defence

19 headquarters to mop up the terrain, to cleanse, to clean up the terrain,

20 to clean up the terrain by collecting corpses of people, animals after

21 battles, et cetera?

22 A. Yes, the municipality was involved in such tasks. Yes.

23 Q. Would I be right in saying that the civilian defence was

24 subordinated to the Executive Board?

25 A. In a way, yes, but it was also subordinated to the national

Page 7735

1 defence secretariat. It was their body, but it was also subordinated to

2 the Executive Board. However, the Executive Board issued such orders very

3 rarely indeed.

4 Q. Those assignments were allocated, as a rule, through the national

5 defence secretariat, that is its section in Bratunac. Would that be

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I thank you, Witness.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Blagojevic?

12 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was

13 intrigued by something I heard during the questioning. It was a question

14 recorded in the transcript under number 525120235, and I would like a

15 clarification. I think it is a very dangerous error if it is an error.

16 525120235. That is the line in the record.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Karnavas.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. Since we were going to

19 be taking our break I already asked that those pages be printed out so

20 that I would examine them carefully, because I picked it up just as

21 Mr. Blagojevic has picked it up. Then I thought I would clean it up or

22 clarify it on redirect, but I concur with Mr. Blagojevic. He's actually

23 correct.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much. I think it's time

25 for a break. We'll resume at 12.30.

Page 7736

1 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, did you check with the transcript during

4 the break?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, I have the --

6 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Sorry, Mr. President. I do have the transcript and

8 I am, at the appropriate time, ready to ask some questions that would

9 clarify the issue, but I can wait until Mr. McCloskey's cross-examination,

10 and after, of course.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I will give you the opportunity after the

12 cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey.

13 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could I ask that that happen first, Your Honour,

15 so we don't into this back and forth? I have no objection if there is

16 something significant that needs to be clarified.

17 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready for that?

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, I'm ready, Your Honour, and I think that's a

19 fair request.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

22 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you were asked earlier by Mr. Stojanovic about the

23 procedure that needs to be followed, and it was -- the question dealt with

24 the Skip, the Skip machine or any other public asset of a public

25 enterprise. Do you recall being asked that question?

Page 7737

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. That is your answer. I'll read it back to you and we'll analyse t

3 it will take a couple of minutes. You indicated and I'm reading from the

4 transcript, this would be -- read these transcripts, but it's 115016, and

5 I think it's on page 49. You state: "I think there are several ways for

6 the army to get it. They can get it directly from the utilities

7 enterprise. They can go through the Executive Board, and they can also go

8 through the local Secretariat for National Defence, which

9 secretariat -- which requisition the asset in question. Those are three

10 procedural possibilities."

11 Do you recall being asked that question and giving that answer?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. It was then asked of you whether the gentleman, the colonel

14 and the lieutenant colonel that had been making these demands of you on

15 the morning of July 14, 1995, whether they were from the Bratunac Brigade,

16 and you indicated that they were not; correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And just for the record, Colonel Blagojevic wasn't there either,

19 was he?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Nor did they ever say at any time that they were there on behalf

22 of Colonel Blagojevic?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Now, the next question which needs a little bit of clarification.

25 You say so -- the question is: "So these officers came along from

Page 7738

1 somewhere outside, and they wanted to requisition this machine from the

2 brickworks specifically." And then the question is: "Would it be

3 possible to bypass the regular requisitioning procedure and take that

4 machine without going through the Bratunac Brigade? Would these officers

5 be able to requisition the machine without ever contacting the

6 Bratunac Brigade and without following the procedure?"

7 And at that point, your answer was: "I don't understand the

8 question. Do you mean to say whether it would being requisitioned without

9 consulting the Executive Board and without taking a decision on the

10 requisitioning," and so on.

11 Now, first of all, first of all, in your previous answer where you

12 said that there are three possible ways, directly, the army directly can

13 go. They can go to the Executive Board, or they go to the local

14 Secretariat for National Defence. Nowhere in your answer are you

15 suggesting that they had -- that these officers had to go through the

16 Bratunac Brigade; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's right. They didn't ask for that through the

18 Bratunac Brigade. They asked for that personally, and I saw them for the

19 first time then. The common procedure was to go through the commander of

20 the brigade to the local authorities or perhaps to the assistant for

21 logistics who would then implement it. I think that was the usual

22 procedure.

23 This request did not go through the Bratunac Brigade.

24 Q. Do you know whether these would be -- these folks were from the

25 Main Staff or the corps or from someplace else?

Page 7739

1 A. I could only speculate, because I'd never seen these people

2 before. Their faces were not familiar to me let alone their names.

3 Q. Okay. Now, if they were from the corps, from the Drina Corps,

4 would not the procedure be that they would have to go to the Zvornik

5 district Ministry of National Defence and place the requisition through

6 them? And if you don't know the answer, that's fine. We'll have the

7 appropriate witness who can answer all of these questions.

8 A. It was unusual that they contacted me directly and requested this

9 from me. However, at the time I didn't pay much attention to this. Let

10 me just tell you what was the procedure that followed.

11 I called on the phone the brickworks director, Nikolic, and I told

12 him the people from the army will come. Give them the machine. He said,

13 "I have no fuel." I said, "They will give you the fuel and if there are

14 any problems, give me a call." I don't know what happened next with the

15 machine. I don't know whether they took the machine or not; I simply

16 informed the director that these people would come.

17 Q. Did you ever assume at that point in time that these two officers

18 had gone to the brigade, had contacted Colonel Blagojevic and they had

19 gotten his permission to come there, these higher ranking officers, or

20 from a higher echelon I should say, get the permission from Blagojevic to

21 come to you to make the requisition? Did you ever form that assumption

22 based on what was going on in that office at that morning?

23 A. I didn't make any further assumptions. I simply didn't analyse

24 this any more. I conveyed this to the brickworks director, and I don't

25 know what happened next.

Page 7740

1 Q. And you never contacted Colonel Blagojevic or anyone in the

2 Bratunac Brigade to see whether these two gentlemen, a colonel and a

3 lieutenant colonel with Colonel Beara who was drinking outside, had been

4 sent there by Blagojevic?

5 A. No. I don't know who sent them. I did not inquire into this. I

6 didn't see Blagojevic there, nor was his name mentioned in any context.

7 Q. Just one final question. At the time when you met Colonel Beara,

8 when you walked into the SDS office, he was sitting there and I believe

9 there was a bottle of whisky where he was drinking that morning, did you

10 know that man? Did you know who he was?

11 A. That was the first time I saw him. He told me what his name was.

12 Q. All right. Did you know his significance in the Main Staff -- or

13 in the VRS, I should say.

14 A. No, not from any official meeting. I heard his name, but his name

15 was not mentioned anywhere officially. I simply heard other people say

16 there is a Colonel Beara. He is in dealing with security affairs.

17 However, I never attended a meeting where he was present, where he spoke,

18 where somebody introduced him. That was the first time I ever saw him.

19 Had he not introduced himself, I wouldn't have known his name.

20 Q. Thank you very much?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I believe I cleared up the matter, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. McCloskey.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey:

25 Q. Good afternoon.

Page 7741

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. Let's stick on that last point just briefly if we could. So the

3 regular process would be to go through the Bratunac Brigade in this

4 situation to get some heavy machines?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Corrections. Misstates the evidence. One of the

6 ways. He cited three ways. Look at the question, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes. One of ways.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: One of the ways and I have a problem with that.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's flat out wrong.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, please look at the record.

11 JUDGE LIU: I understand one of the ways.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm saying the regular way. This is what he said.

13 The regular way is to go through the Bratunac Brigade.

14 JUDGE LIU: Just use the words. One of the ways.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's not what he said, Your Honour.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I can point to the record, Your Honour. Let's be

17 fair to the witness.

18 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't wish to debate the issue. I apologise,

20 Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: But the point is there.


23 Q. A regular way would be to go through the Bratunac Brigade; is that

24 correct?

25 A. I'm not sure. I think that would be one of the ways, but I'm not

Page 7742

1 sure.

2 Q. So when you answered that question earlier, you weren't sure about

3 your answer?

4 A. I mentioned three ways in my opinion. One could go through the

5 Bratunac Brigade, too, which in my opinion would be normal, because

6 Bratunac Brigade is in Bratunac, the Executive Board is in Bratunac, and

7 there is communication between these two. We were not very far away from

8 the command, so we could see each other. We had telephone communication.

9 We could speak on the telephone. And up until then, we did not have any

10 unclear incidents when this came to communication, communication between

11 the municipality and the command.

12 Q. So the command could have been involved in this particular

13 process --

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Calls for speculation. Calls for speculation I

15 don't even want --

16 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone, please.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Calls for speculation, Your Honour. "Could have

18 been." He's asking the gentlemen to speculate. He knows or he doesn't

19 know.

20 JUDGE LIU: I don't think so. The witness answered that which in

21 his opinion could be normal to go to the Bratunac Brigade. So if the

22 procedure goes like that, the natural question is that whether it has to

23 go through the commander of that brigade.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Not if the higher echelon --

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I objection to this argument in front

Page 7743

1 of the witness. This is absurd.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: If he can identify -- if these were officers from

3 the Bratunac Brigade, I would agree but he's indicated they're not. There

4 are no other colonels --

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Then I would ask that he ask to be quiet or the

6 witness be stepped out.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think you have to hold your

8 temper a little bit. At this moment, you are talking about one of the

9 regular ways. Since the witness has answered that question, the natural

10 question will be followed by Mr. McCloskey.

11 You may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.


13 Q. So could the -- the process have gone through the brigade that

14 day?

15 A. In this case, they did not go through the Bratunac Brigade.

16 Q. You don't know where these men were before they saw you, do you?

17 A. These two officers?

18 Q. That's correct.

19 A. I don't know. I saw them for the first time there. I could have

20 met them in the street and not know who they were. I met them for the

21 first time in that SDS office.

22 Q. Listen to my question. You don't know where they were before they

23 met you, did you?

24 A. No. No, I don't know that.

25 Q. You don't know who they were talking to before they met you, do

Page 7744

1 you?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. And you don't know what they might have been talking to people

4 about before they saw you?

5 A. With whom?

6 Q. You don't know who they might have been talking to, do you, or

7 what they were talking about?

8 A. I don't know these people either, let alone who they'd talk to

9 prior to that.

10 Q. But you brought up the brick factory; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is that the factory known as Ciglana?

13 A. Yes. This is the factory that manufactures brick.

14 Q. Ciglana?

15 A. Yes, Ciglana. The company manufacturing bricks and tiles for

16 construction of houses.

17 Q. Did Mr. Deronjic speak to you about the army's plan to murder

18 Muslim prisoners at this Ciglana factory?

19 A. No, nor was it done in that factory.

20 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Deronjic was chasing after Mr. Beara that

21 very morning, 14 July, to prevent him from murdering people at the Ciglana

22 factory?

23 A. I'm not aware of that. And as far as I know, no people were

24 killed at Ciglana. Had it been done there, I would have heard that from

25 someone, but as far as I know, and I can assure you of that, that wasn't

Page 7745

1 done there.

2 Q. Were you aware that the evening before this morning of the 14th,

3 at the warehouse in Kravica, that there was a piece of heavy equipment

4 that was working at the warehouse picking up bodies that had been murdered

5 there?

6 A. I'm not aware of that.

7 Q. So you don't know anything about how that machine would have been

8 requisitioned for use?

9 A. I don't even know whether the machine was requisitioned, let alone

10 whether the machine did any work. I called the director. I told him that

11 people would come, and he didn't tell me later whether the people had

12 indeed come and had taken the machines. So I don't know anything about

13 that.

14 Q. But for that day, too, the 13th, the normal way of getting a

15 machine would be involving the Bratunac Brigade, wouldn't it?

16 A. I don't know what you're aiming at with your question. I've

17 simply told you what was done regarding that. Now, as to the procedure

18 and whether the procedure was followed, I don't know about that.

19 Q. Try to answer my question if you can. On the 13th, the day before

20 this, there had been a normal option for anyone wanting to use a public

21 machine to go through the Bratunac Brigade; is that right?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection to "anyone." Anyone. Who is anyone?

23 Does that mean that Mladic, General Mladic has to go through the Bratunac

24 Brigade or General Krstic or Borovcanin or Vasic?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I object. If he wants to argue his

Page 7746

1 case he can do it --

2 MR. KARNAVAS: He needs to rephrase the question.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: There's not a darn thing wrong with that question.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Pure obstruction.

6 JUDGE LIU: The witness said they don't know the name of those two

7 persons. He never saw those two persons in his office on that day, so I

8 think that's why Mr. McCloskey used the word "anyone."

9 MR. KARNAVAS: As long as I understand the witness's testimony

10 that no matter who it is, Karadzic or whatever, they would have to go

11 through the Bratunac Brigade and ask Colonel Blagojevic, if that's his

12 testimony, then I'll sit down, but that's not how I understood it to be.

13 JUDGE LIU: I believe that the witness could give us the answer on

14 that issue.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Witness, please answer the question.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but he said that a person

18 would have to go through the Bratunac Brigade. That was, of course, never

19 part of my question, and so it may be confusing for the witness at this

20 point. I think I can --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may --

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I can go on, but --

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't say would

25 have to but could have, if I understood you properly. I did not say would

Page 7747

1 have to. The person could have gone through the Bratunac Brigade, but in

2 this case they did not.


4 Q. I understand that's what you testified to. Thank you.

5 Colonel Blagojevic was born in Bratunac as well as yourself; is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you know --

9 A. In a village by Bratunac, five or six -- five to six kilometres

10 away.

11 Q. Did you know him or his family while growing up?

12 A. I did not know Colonel Blagojevic until his arrival in the

13 brigade. He's younger than I am. Did he not live in town itself. He

14 lived in a village six to seven kilometres away. We were not same

15 generation, so I did not know him up until he was appointed commander of

16 the Bratunac Brigade.

17 Q. And after that period when he was appointed commander, you did

18 know him and have dealings with him?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You said that someone asked you, I believe it was after the fall

21 of Srebrenica, to go over to the Bratunac Brigade on the morning of the

22 day after the fall; is that right?

23 A. I don't know whether you mean the first contact with

24 General Mladic, the first time we met at the command, or --

25 Q. I asked you whether or not someone had asked you to go to the

Page 7748

1 command, not the Hotel Fontana. Did someone ask you to go to the command

2 on the morning of the 12th of July, the day after Srebrenica fell?

3 A. In the evening, Deronjic told me that I should be at the command

4 the following morning. He said this to me on the 11th, saying that I

5 should be there at around 8.00. It was peculiar to me that in the morning

6 at the general's, I did not see Deronjic when it was him who had told me

7 that I should be there the following morning. He himself did not come.

8 Q. So you believed Deronjic must have been in touch with someone

9 about this meeting, obviously, otherwise he couldn't have told you about

10 it.

11 A. Yes. Since he told me this, somebody must have told him to tell

12 me this. The two of us are neighbours. I don't know who told him to tell

13 me.

14 Q. Okay. Now, you were told to go to the meeting at the

15 Hotel Fontana at 10.00 that same day, the 12th or the day after Srebrenica

16 fell; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you say you trusted Mladic to be telling the truth to the

19 Muslims at that meeting, and you in fact passed that on to one of Muslims,

20 to trust Mladic?

21 A. Yes. That was the impression I had, especially since the

22 commander of the Dutch Battalion was there, his deputy, the three of us

23 representing the civilian government. So this was an official meeting, in

24 my mind, and I believed that things would be all right.

25 Q. Today would you trust Mladic's word?

Page 7749

1 A. I don't know what Mladic's opinion is today. I have no

2 information regarding that.

3 Q. Today would you trust the word of General Mladic?

4 A. I would not, because things were not done as was agreed.

5 Q. Did you see him on the television on the 11th when he came in to

6 Potocari and looked into the camera and said, "It's now time to take

7 revenge upon the Turks in this area"?

8 A. I did not see that, but people told me that it was on television.

9 I personally did not watch television. I was told that he was on

10 television. And I don't remember him saying that, but I heard that he was

11 on television, that the camera shot him. I didn't see that on television

12 myself.

13 Q. During the meeting at the Hotel Fontana, what did Mladic say,

14 roughly, to the Muslims that were there? As best as you can recall.

15 A. He asked them what they wanted, whether they wanted to stay in the

16 Srebrenica area. They were very firm about not wanting to stay there,

17 about wanting to leave. He asked them this question several times. He

18 also said that if they wished to stay, he would guarantee freedom and

19 safety for them in that area. They did not accept that. They were very

20 firm in their desire to leave the area. When he asked them where they

21 wanted to go, they said that they wanted to go towards Tuzla and Kladanj.

22 Q. Did you ever hear him threaten the Muslims at that meeting?

23 A. No. No. He did not threaten them.

24 Q. You're sure about that?

25 A. As far as I can remember, yes, I am.

Page 7750

1 Q. Did the Muslims look scared to you at that meeting?

2 A. It is certain that they were not comfortable there. They did not

3 feel at ease. Now, as to whether they were afraid, I wouldn't know that.

4 I'm sure that they were not at ease. Had I been in their shoes, I would

5 not have felt comfortable there.

6 Q. So you don't know if they were scared or not?

7 A. I don't know that. They probably were, as I've said. I would

8 have been scared. I would not have felt indifferent.

9 Q. You just described how frightened you were in your meeting with

10 Mladic the previous day.

11 A. Where? I was not scared. I felt uncomfortable, but I don't know

12 what you mean when you say fear and when you say feeling uncomfortable. I

13 was not afraid. I was perhaps uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable about

14 his treatment of me, because at the time, I represented civilian

15 authorities. I was President of the Executive Board. I believed that I

16 deserved better treatment, but I was not scared.

17 Q. So when Mladic made all these -- these offers to allow people to

18 stay or go, would you trust -- would you trust that statement today,

19 knowing what you know, as being genuine?

20 A. I don't know how it came that things happened the way they

21 happened. I don't know whether Mladic was responsible for that, but it is

22 likely that after everything that had happened, I wouldn't trust anyone

23 myself. I wouldn't trust anyone except myself to ensure that things would

24 be done as was agreed.

25 Now, who is responsible for this, whether Mladic did it, I don't

Page 7751

1 know, but nowadays I would trust only myself.

2 Q. Did you hear Mladic condition his promises to the Muslims on

3 whether or not their soldiers surrendered and turned in their weapons?

4 A. I don't remember these details.

5 Q. Do you remember a Serb representative saying at the meeting that

6 their Muslim men in Potocari would be screened to determine if any of them

7 were war criminals, ages 16 to 60?

8 A. I don't remember that. All I know is that it was said that there

9 was a large number of people in Potocari who were in need of assistance

10 and that that problem needed to be resolved. So from that moment on, this

11 was what guided me at the meeting, and I don't remember the other details,

12 whether there were any conditions, whether somebody was to inspect it or

13 not. I knew that it was not up to me to screen them.

14 Q. For the next two days, that large population was transported out

15 of Potocari; is that right?

16 A. Yes. They were transported.

17 Q. And you've described some of the assistance you gave those people.

18 Did you provide that assistance on both days that this transportation took

19 place?

20 A. No. Are you -- are you hearing me? Can you hear me? I was in

21 Potocari only the first day. I wasn't there the second day.

22 Q. You didn't go at all on the second day?

23 A. No, I did not. The second day I only passed by on my way to

24 Srebrenica. That's where I was going, Srebrenica.

25 Q. What did you do in Srebrenica?

Page 7752

1 A. I went there to satisfy my sheer curiosity, to see what it was

2 like because I didn't -- I hadn't seen it since 1992, and I heard a lot

3 about how difficult life was there. I just passed by and went on my way.

4 Q. Did you go with anybody else?

5 A. The driver, the municipal service driver. We went in the service

6 car belonging to the municipal government.

7 Q. Just you and the driver?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What's the driver's name?

10 A. Brano Jokic.

11 Q. And his father's name, if you know?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Now, during the time you've described taking part in the

14 transportation or actually helping the Muslim people on that first day,

15 did you see any Muslim men being separated out of the crowd of people?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. Were you aware that Muslim men were being detained in buildings

18 around the area where the crowd was on that day?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Did you see any abuse of the Muslim population that day?

21 A. I didn't see.

22 Q. Did you see their belongings cast aside and piled up nearby where

23 they were on buses?

24 A. I didn't see what belongings they had. They had perhaps some

25 clothes, some belongings tied up in a piece of cloth. I couldn't see.

Page 7753

1 Q. Did you see many of those belongings being cast aside and piled up

2 in the dirt along the side of the road?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. That night, were you aware that Muslim men were detained in the

5 hangar behind the Vuk Karadzic school?

6 A. I was not aware of that. I knew that there was a number of people

7 in the school building. I didn't know about the hangar. To the best of

8 my knowledge, that hangar did not even have a roof. It was a completely

9 demolished building, a ruin since 1992. There were no people in the

10 hangar. There were some people in the school building.

11 Q. How many people were in the school building?

12 A. I think their number never went over 50. When enough people would

13 gather to fill one bus, they would be taken out of there and put on a

14 transport. I don't think the number ever exceeded 50. I didn't go there

15 to look. I didn't go into the school building. I just asked the

16 policemen who were standing outside once. That was on one occasion when I

17 went there to see what's going on, but I didn't go inside.

18 Q. Is that school building, the Vuk Karadzic school building, the

19 same building that you referred to that became partly destroyed in 1992?

20 A. Maybe I did not describe it very well. The school building as

21 such was not destroyed in the sense that a wall had caved in or it didn't

22 have a room -- a roof. It's just that the windows were broken and

23 otherwise it wasn't destroyed.

24 Q. But it hadn't been used since -- since 1992?

25 A. It hadn't been used because there were two school buildings in

Page 7754

1 Bratunac, and one primary school was enough to receive all the pupils we

2 had in Bratunac. I don't think that other building would have been used

3 even if it had been in good condition, because we didn't have enough

4 schoolchildren to fill two schools. I think only one building was enough,

5 because it had 24 classrooms. It was a bigger, better building than the

6 Vuk Karadzic school. That's where the pupils went to school.

7 Q. Do you have any knowledge, any reason to believe Muslims from

8 Srebrenica would be very frightened about being put in the Vuk Karadzic

9 school in July of 1995 because of what happened in 1992?

10 A. The Muslims from Srebrenica were never placed in that school

11 building. They were in Potocari. And they were not taken to Bratunac

12 from Potocari and placed in that school. In Potocari, they were put

13 directly on the convoys, on the transports, and the transports went

14 through Bratunac but did not stop there, and the people from Potocari were

15 not taken to the Vuk Karadzic school.

16 The people who were brought to the Vuk Karadzic school were those

17 who were captured on the road from Kravica to Konjevic Polje, who

18 surrendered on that road, and I think that school was a collection point

19 for such men, but even they were transported later on towards Kladanj and

20 Tuzla, and they were treated the same way as the people in Potocari. They

21 were transported to Tuzla just as the people from Potocari.

22 Q. My question is, is the Muslims that stayed in the school in

23 Bratunac in July of 1995, would they have had reason to be afraid of being

24 in that school because of what happened in 1992 at that school?

25 A. Whether they were afraid or not, I don't know, but if I had been

Page 7755

1 in their shoes, I would probably be frightened.

2 Q. Were Muslims placed in that school in 1992?

3 A. At that time, I was not in the same position as I was in 1995. I

4 was a regular soldier in the brigade, and I was not based in town, but I

5 had heard that Muslims had been placed in the Vuk Karadzic school. And

6 when I would come home on leave, I would not go close to the school. My

7 house was elsewhere, and I was not curious enough to go and check, but I

8 had heard that they had been placed there, yes.

9 Q. And did you hear what had happened to them at that school in 1992?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. And what was that? Just briefly.

12 A. I heard that some of them lost their lives there.

13 Q. The rest were shipped out somewhere else; is that right?

14 A. I know that on one transport in 1992, people were taken from that

15 school towards Pale.

16 Q. Now, if you can recall, when were the most Muslims actually

17 transported to Bratunac and spent the night? Was it that first night,

18 which would have been 12 July, that first day that you were helping out at

19 Potocari, or would it have been the next night, the 13th of July?

20 A. Do you mean the buses that had come not from Potocari but from

21 Milici to Bratunac?

22 Q. From the direction of Milici were a number of buses, yes. That

23 would include buses from along the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road?

24 A. Yes. That's the road from Milici to Konjevic Polje to Bratunac.

25 I think that happened in the night between the 12th and the 13th.

Page 7756

1 Q. Do you recall the 13th, the second day of the evacuation? Is that

2 the day when most of the people arrived, the day of the 13th in the

3 evening, or you just don't recall?

4 A. Arrived where?

5 Q. Bratunac.

6 A. I've answered this already. The largest number arrived in the

7 night between the 12th and the 13th.

8 Q. And did you receive any reports of any of those Muslims being

9 brutalised?

10 A. No. No. Nobody made such reports available to me, and I wasn't

11 aware of it. I didn't have these reports.

12 Q. Did you hear any reports about bodies being in Bratunac on the

13 14th of July around the town area and around the schools and around where

14 the vehicles had been parked?

15 A. I heard that some corpses were left behind in the school building.

16 I cannot give you a number, but it's true that some remained there.

17 Q. Who did you hear this from?

18 A. I cannot tell you exactly from whom I heard this, but I did hear

19 about it.

20 Q. When? When did you hear about it? When did you hear about

21 corpses at this Vuk Karadzic school?

22 A. I cannot give you the date or the time of day, but it was probably

23 when it was all over, when everybody had left, when the school building

24 was empty, and that was probably after the 14th.

25 Q. Did you follow up on it? Did you report it to the police?

Page 7757

1 A. Well, the police were certainly better informed than I was.

2 Q. Did you do anything to report these corpses?

3 A. No. I didn't report to anyone, nor was it my job. To whom was I

4 supposed to report to?

5 Q. Do you know any effort to let UNPROFOR in to the schools or around

6 the vehicles in Bratunac to help take care of the Muslims, some of whom

7 were corpses, by the morning of the 14th?

8 A. I don't know.


10 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't recall. Maybe it's because I'm tired, but

11 I don't recall there's been evidence with respect to UNPROFOR trying to

12 get there. I might be mistaken, but I don't recall that there's been

13 testimony in the Prosecution's case in chief with respect to that last

14 question.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. Lay some foundations for that.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I can -- I know it's been a long

17 trial, but one testified that he followed buses to the area in front of

18 the Vuk Karadzic school and -- full of Muslim men and was arrested and

19 removed from his vehicle and had his material taken away from him and

20 sent -- sent packing, basically. However, the question really doesn't

21 need a foundation. I'm just asking him if there was any effort made by

22 anyone to let UNPROFOR protect the people that they had the mandate to

23 protect.

24 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.


Page 7758

1 Q. So did you or anyone else that you knew make any effort to contact

2 UNPROFOR and get them to help these people at the schools and parked

3 around the town?

4 A. No, I did not. I saw those buses, those vehicles only the

5 evening. I did what I could to help. I gave them some water. And in the

6 morning they were already gone. Nobody required me to submit any reports,

7 and it wasn't my obligation to do so. I had no communication whatsoever

8 with any higher level authority such as the Assembly of Republika Srpska.

9 I did not have that chain of coordination, and I don't see to whom I could

10 have reported and what.

11 Q. Did you or anyone else you were aware of try to call the Red Cross

12 or the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to try and go help

13 these Muslims in Bratunac in what you described as stifling heat?

14 A. I think that President Simic did something about that. He

15 normally contacted the UNHCR because he had personal acquaintances among

16 them, and he also knew that Russian man who at the time headed the UNHCR

17 office, and he was in touch with them. I wasn't.

18 Q. You mentioned to Mr. Ruez a long time ago that some Muslims were

19 coming in to Bratunac, and they were -- they were detained by the police

20 and then moved into the various schools. Do you remember that?

21 A. That they arrived in Bratunac and the police detained them in

22 various schools? I didn't say that. I didn't say various schools. What

23 I said is that there had been cases when a smaller number of Muslims found

24 themselves in Bratunac. How or why, I don't know, but there were four or

25 five such cases. And such men would be taken to the school building, but

Page 7759

1 they would be then transferred on by buses. But that it was a common

2 occurrence for Muslim men to be detained in school buildings, in various

3 school buildings, I didn't say anything of the sort. I said there were

4 some of them detained in the Vuk Karadzic school.

5 Q. I didn't mean to imply that was a common occurrence, but there

6 were Muslims that were detained coming into Bratunac and -- by the police;

7 is that right?

8 A. Are you now talking about July 1995 only?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Yes, yes, that's correct. That's true that there were a couple of

11 cases when the police, upon finding a Muslim man in town, would take the

12 man into custody and detain him in the Vuk Karadzic school.

13 Q. Do you recall Mr. Ruez asking you if you knew anything about an

14 incident at Kravica when he interviewed you a long time ago?

15 A. I am not getting any translation. Can you hear me? Yes, yes, I

16 can hear now.

17 Q. Okay. We can try it again. Sometimes there's little glitches.

18 Do you recall Mr. Ruez asking you whether or not you had any

19 information about an incident that happened in Kravica in July of 1995?

20 A. Can I get some translation now? I'm not getting any

21 translation -- interpretation, rather.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear now.


24 Q. Okay. Can you hear me okay now?

25 A. Yes, I can hear well now. Yes. Can you hear me?

Page 7760

1 Q. Yeah. I think we're back on line.

2 Do you remember Mr. Ruez asking you whether or not you had any

3 information about an incident in Kravica in July 1995?

4 A. I have a statement that I gave. I can't claim with certainty that

5 I can remember everything I stated then because it's been a while ago, but

6 you can see yourself what the statement says.

7 Q. Okay. Let me give you a chance to look at a small part of at that

8 statement, if we could. It's in the B/C/S, page 15. It should be lines 2

9 and 3. If you could take a look. And in the English it should be page 13

10 and 14, lines 34, 35, and then number 1 on page 14. Just find that spot

11 if you can. You can see it's been highlighted. Take a look at the page

12 before and after if you want to try to orient yourself.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you can see there that Mr. Ruez says: "Did you receive any

15 information from local officials in Kravica about the events which might

16 have occurred in that place?" And you say: "No." And you never mention

17 anything about any knowledge of the Kravica murders. Is that right?

18 A. It is true that he asked me whether I received anything from the

19 local officials in Kravica. However, there were no local officials in

20 Kravica. Kravica did not have a mayor at the time. Kravica was a

21 deserted settlement at the time. It was not populated.

22 Q. Okay. But you never --

23 A. And there were no local officials there.

24 Q. So I understand that you were telling Mr. Ruez that you received

25 no information from local officials. And did you choose not to tell him

Page 7761

1 about what you knew about the Kravica warehouse?

2 A. No, but he asked me about local officials, and I said that I did

3 not receive anything from them because there were no local officials

4 there.

5 Q. And you didn't tell him anything about what you heard about the

6 murders at the Kravica warehouse?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And you've told us today that you know about the reburial of

9 bodies from Glogova; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you've testified that you knew some of the villages where they

12 were taken, the victims, that is. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell me the names of the villages you know that served as

14 graves for the victims from Glogova?

15 A. I just know about Glogova. I don't know how to explain this to

16 you. Glogova is a large area, and I don't know the villages in the

17 vicinity of Glogova.

18 Q. Do you know where the victims from the Glogova mass grave were

19 taken to?

20 A. I don't know the location, but I heard that they were moved to the

21 Srebrenica area. I don't know the exact location.

22 Q. Did you ever report this location to anyone so that those bodies

23 could be found?

24 A. No. That wasn't done in July of 1995. That was done, as far as I

25 can remember, later.

Page 7762

1 Q. Did you ever report, from July 1995 until the present, to anyone,

2 including international agencies, that you knew that bodies had been taken

3 from Glogova to somewhere by Srebrenica?

4 A. I did not convey this to anyone because I hadn't seen this. I

5 only heard about this. Nobody informed me that this would be done. This

6 was more in the line of speculation. Nobody told me that this was going

7 on or that this would be done or where it would be done. I don't know

8 about that.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any redirect?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I just have a couple of questions.

12 Further re-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

13 Q. You were asked earlier about your statement with respect to

14 Kravica, and the question was, as was read to you: "Did you receive any

15 information from local officials in Kravica about events which might have

16 occurred in that place?" Now -- and then you stated: "No." But then you

17 go on to say there's no mayor in Kravica; correct?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. So when Mr. Ruez was asking you the question, asking you from

20 local officials in Kravica, was it your understanding that he was asking

21 you if local authorities from the Kravica village had given you any

22 information? Is that your understanding?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then later on you do talk about Kravica, how it was burned

25 down and how 155 people in Kravica, on Christmas Day, had been killed; is

Page 7763

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I have to further questions, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Stojanovic?

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 Yes, Judge Vassylenko.

8 Questioned by the Court:

9 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Gospodin Davidovic, have you had any contacts

10 with Colonel Blagojevic in your official capacity or privately during the

11 critical days in July of 1995?

12 A. At the time, I did not see Colonel Blagojevic, and I had no

13 contacts with him, either official or private ones.

14 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: One more question. Have you any information

15 indicating that Colonel Blagojevic was involved in the murder operation

16 that occurred in the Srebrenica enclave in July 1995 and resulted in the

17 death of thousands of Muslim able-bodied men?

18 A. I have no information to that effect on any participation of

19 Colonel Blagojevic in those events. I have never heard from anyone about

20 any kind of his involvement in crimes from 1995 until today. I never

21 heard that he actively participated in that with others.

22 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Hvala. I have no more questions.

23 A. Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: There are no more questions out of the Judges'

25 questions.

Page 7764

1 At this stage are there any documents to tender? Mr. Karnavas?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, thank you, Witness, for coming to

6 The Hague to give your evidence. The usher will show you out of the room

7 when this session is closed.

8 The hearing of today is adjourned, and we will see you Monday

9 afternoon in the same courtroom.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day of April,

13 2004, at 2.15 p.m.