1 Thursday, 6 May 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
10 Good morning, Witness.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
15 Mr. Karnavas, please continue.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
17 WITNESS: RADIKA PETROVIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]
20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Petrovic. I want to pick up where we left off
22 Now, you had indicated, as I understand, that at some point you
23 had been informed that the 1st Company, I believe, had come across a
24 Muslim and had taken them prisoner. Is that correct?
25 A. The question is not clear to me. When?
1 Q. This is on the morning of the 12th.
2 A. Yes. When I got back in the evening of the 12th, I found out
3 about this.
4 Q. All right. Where were you when you found out about it?
5 A. I had come back from the 2nd Company to the battalion command,
6 which was about a kilometre and a half or two from the asphalt road.
7 Q. All right. Now, just again if you could refresh our memories. By
8 the asphalt road, is there also a command there or part of the command
9 located there?
10 A. No. There is a kitchen by the asphalt road. At the beginning in
11 1994, there used to be a command there.
12 Q. All right. And that kitchen belonged to the -- to your battalion?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, could you please explain to us what exactly you learned on
15 the evening of the 12th when you returned to the battalion, the battalion
17 A. I was told that there had been a prisoner in the 1st Company, that
18 the 1st Company had taken a prisoner, that the chief of the
19 Zvornik Brigade, Obrenovic, had been informed of this; and that he had
20 sent Vukotic to fetch the prisoner. Obrenovic ordered that the prisoner
21 be taken to the asphalt road and that somebody would come to pick him up.
22 The 1st Company, or rather, the komandir of the 1st Company designated the
23 soldiers who were to take him to the asphalt road. And while they were
24 escorting him there, this soldier started running away. He started to
25 flee towards a minefield. The soldiers shot at him and killed him.
1 Q. Now, who gave you this information?
2 A. The communications man in the command of the battalion.
3 Q. Were you ever informed whether Mr. Vukotic had come all the way to
4 the command of your battalion?
5 A. Vukotic did not come to the battalion command.
6 Q. My question was: Were you ever told that he had come to the
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Listen to my question. Were you ever told by anyone that
10 Mr. Vukotic had come to your command, physically had come there? Did
11 anyone tell you that?
12 A. Yes, yes. The investigators told me that in Banja Luka when they
13 interviewed me.
14 Q. All right. Well, before we get to what the investigators told you
15 in Banja Luka, on that day - I'm still on the 12th of July, 1995 - did
16 anyone from your command or within the command or within the battalion or
17 within the Zvornik Brigade or within the Drina Corps or the VRS, did
18 anyone ever tell you that Vukotic had come all the way to the battalion
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, after you learned what had happened to this prisoner, did you
22 do anything?
23 A. As the chief had been informed, the chief of the Zvornik Brigade,
24 Obrenovic, and Vukotic had been informed about this, he was the
25 intelligence man, I didn't take any steps, fearing for my soldiers' and my
1 own life. I thought an investigation would be conducted later on, and the
2 command in Zvornik was informed of it.
3 Q. Well, why were you in fear and why did you fear the safety of your
4 soldiers? What did that have to do with this prisoner?
5 A. A large number of Muslims had set out from Jaglic. I didn't
6 expect us to survive. Each one of us was afraid. At any moment we
7 expected that we, too, would be killed. That's why at that point in time
8 it was not the right time to conduct any sort of investigation.
9 Q. All right. Incidentally, do you know who from the 1st Company
10 took the prisoner down towards the asphalt road when he was shot?
11 A. Yes, I know the name of the komandir of the company who designated
12 the soldiers, but I can't tell you now exactly who the soldiers were who
13 escorted him.
14 Q. Who was the komandir?
15 A. The komandir of the 1st Company was Jagos, Milic.
16 Q. All right. And did you ever have a conversation with this
17 gentleman, back then now, I'm talking about July 1995, as to what had
19 A. No.
20 Q. All right. Now, I want to fast-forward to the point in time when
21 you met with the Prosecutors in Banja Luka. Okay?
22 A. Yes. All right.
23 Q. Do you recall being asked about this event?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And before coming here today, have you had an opportunity to read
1 your statement?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let me ask you again. Before coming to testify here, have you
4 looked at your statement?
5 A. No.
6 Q. All right. Well, have I not shown you your statement?
7 A. Oh, yes, you have. Yes.
8 Q. All right. So you have looked at it?
9 A. Yes, when you gave it to me.
10 Q. All right. Now, having looked at your statement, do you recall
11 the section in your statement where you are specifically asked about this
12 particular incident?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would you please tell us whether you answered the questions
15 truthfully as they were being posed to you by I believe it was
16 Mr. McCloskey at the time?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Would you please tell us what you told the Prosecution or their
19 investigators at the time.
20 A. I told them I didn't know or that I didn't recall this incident.
21 Q. Why did you do that?
22 A. The komandir of the 1st Company is my next-door neighbour. I
23 didn't wish to draw him into all this before informing him about it. I
24 hoped I would have an opportunity after talking to him to tell the
1 Q. All right. Well, did you have an opportunity to talk to the
3 A. Yes. On my return from Banja Luka two or three months later, I
4 saw Jagos, the komandir of this company, and I talked to him. And he was
5 not at all opposed to my making a statement and mentioning him and telling
6 what happened.
7 Q. All right. And I take it, if we were to bring this gentleman
8 here, he would confirm what you're telling us here under oath?
9 A. Yes. Yes, that's certain.
10 Q. Now, when you were questioned in Banja Luka, do you recall that
11 when this matter was being brought up you were told specifically that
12 Dusko Vukotic, in his interview, had said that he had gone to the command
13 of your battalion, which is where he had learned what had happened to this
14 prisoner. Do you recall reading that exchange between you and
15 Mr. McCloskey during your interview?
16 A. Yes. They repeated that to me several times, that he had come to
17 the command and learned about it there. I said it wasn't true and that
18 Vukotic did not come to the command.
19 Q. All right. Now, at one point in fact you say, and I'm reading
20 from page 53. I'll just read -- it's a very short exchange. You
21 say -- you're being told: "Your command was at Kajici."
22 And your answer is: "It was 3 kilometres from the asphalt road,
23 while Kajici is on the asphalt road."
24 And the response was: "Where it was is not the issue here, sir."
25 Now, when you were being told that Mr. Vukotic had come to your
1 command, where did you think this was a reference to, what part? The road
2 where you have the cooking facilities or the command post?
3 A. I was thinking of the command post, which is 2 or 3 kilometres
4 away from the asphalt road. That's where I was, my security man, my
5 deputy. On the asphalt road there were only cooks and people distributing
6 the food. That was not the command; that was the rear department.
7 Q. All right. Now, after your interview with Mr. -- with the
8 Prosecutors there, with Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Graham and after being told
9 that Mr. Vukotic had indicated that he had come to the command and had
10 learned this information from the command, did you by any chance have a
11 meeting with Mr. Vukotic?
12 A. In Banja Luka, I told the investigators that when I got back I
13 would talk to Vukotic to see where he had been. Then they told me there
14 was no need for me to talk to him, and I did not. But on one occasion --
15 Q. Let me stop you here. We're going to go step by step. When you
16 were in Banja Luka and after you learned this information, if we were to
17 go into your statement now we would find a section that you indicated that
18 you wanted to speak with Mr. Vukotic. Is that correct? Is that what
19 you're telling us?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. And what was the reason why you expressed an interest in wanting
22 to meet with Mr. Vukotic and speak with him?
23 A. I wanted to speak with him because he had lied about coming to the
24 command of the 4th Battalion or the 8th Zvornik on the 12th.
25 Q. And what instructions did they tell you, did they give you?
1 A. Who do you mean?
2 Q. Well, at the time that you mentioned this to the Prosecutor or
3 their investigator that you were going to speak with Mr. Vukotic, what was
4 their response?
5 A. Their response was that I should not discuss this with Vukotic.
6 Q. All right. Now, after you left there, did you go and try to find
7 Mr. Vukotic?
8 A. No. I saw Vukotic on several occasions, not very often, but we
9 didn't talk.
10 Q. Now, did you -- when you say you saw him, were you near him? Were
11 you in his company? Did you pass him on the road? What were those
13 A. We never socialised. We didn't even know each other before this
14 war. I would see him in passing, in the street. Some six months later,
15 perhaps, after my interview in Banja Luka, I was sitting with my friends
16 in a cafe called Rima, and he was passing by. He saw me there, and he
17 retraced his steps and came in. He approached my table. He gave me his
18 hand, but I didn't give him mine. He asked me: "Why? Why don't you want
19 to shake hands with me?" And that was the first time I said to him:
20 "Because you told the investigators that on the 12th you came to my
21 command and you weren't in the command." He said to me that the
22 investigators were not telling the truth. That was the end of the
23 conversation and he left.
24 Q. All right. Did you ever threaten this gentleman, who I understand
25 is a rather public figure these days, being a member of the RS parliament?
1 A. No, never. I never threatened him.
2 Q. All right. Now, let's move on then.
3 Now, on that particular -- I want to go back now to July 12th,
4 1995. Okay.
5 A. All right.
6 Q. Now, did anything other than this one incident that you described
7 with the prisoner, did anything else happen on that particular day?
8 A. Not during the day, no, nothing else.
9 Q. What about during the night?
10 A. During the night, the only thing that happened was that the
11 soldiers from Vlasenica came who took over the line of my battalion in
12 the direction of Siljkovici. That was in the night between the 12th and
13 the 13th.
14 Q. What about the 13th? What, if anything, unusual happened on that
16 A. Nothing happened during the day of the 13th until the early
17 evening, the early evening. Then the 1st Company again took a soldier
18 prisoner, or rather, he surrendered to the 1st Company.
19 Q. You're making this distinction. Help us out here. You say: "He
20 surrendered." What exactly are you telling us?
21 A. Well, when I say that he was taken prisoner, I want to say that
22 there was some sort of fighting. But what happened here was that people
23 were just holding the defence line, and he approached them on his own. He
24 didn't have any weapons, and he surrendered himself. So there was no
25 fighting, no taking of a prisoner.
1 Q. You had indicated yesterday that your men were positioned -- the
2 1st Company I believe had seven and the 2nd Company had eight trenches.
4 A. The 1st Company had eight and the 2nd Company, seven.
5 Q. Right. Now, were they out -- were your men out of the trenches
6 and advancing or searching or trying to confront and engage the forces
7 that they believe were coming their way?
8 A. No. These were men who were afraid. They were in fear of their
9 lives, and they didn't have orders to advance anywhere.
10 Q. Well, what happened to this prisoner, this gentleman, who had
11 given himself up, surrendered? What happened to him?
12 A. As night was already starting to fall, it wasn't safe to take him
13 anywhere. I ordered the komandir of the 1st Company to stay in the
14 command trench and spend the night with him. In the morning when dawn
15 broke, he was to take him to the battalion command.
16 Q. Do you know this individual's name, the prisoner's name?
17 A. Yes. His name was Esef Gabeljic.
18 Q. Okay. How do you know his name?
19 A. When they brought him to the command, I interviewed him briefly.
20 Q. All right. Did you abuse him in any way?
21 A. No, I didn't. He had breakfast in the battalion command, and he
22 waited for the van to come and take him to Bratunac.
23 Q. When he came to the command and when you interviewed him, did he
24 appear as if he might have been abused by your own men?
25 A. No. He personally told me that he had been treated well, that he
1 had had supper and had coffee with them in the evening.
2 Q. Do you recall how old this gentleman was?
3 A. About 45.
4 Q. During this brief conversation, do you recall what he told you or
5 what you learned from him?
6 A. Yes. He told me that between 12 and 15.000 Muslims had set out,
7 that each -- that every tenth Muslim was armed. They were escorting this
8 column, providing security. Along the way, they stopped and took German
9 marks, 100 marks for securing the column. If a Muslim separated from the
10 column to go to the toilet, for example, these armed soldiers would kill
11 him and rob him.
12 Q. All right. Anything else that you learned from this gentleman?
13 A. I learned that he used to work in Bratunac, that he had been some
14 sort of sanitary inspector.
15 Q. All right. Now, what did you do with this prisoner?
16 A. This prisoner was handed over to the Bratunac Brigade. He was
17 received by Momir Nikolic, the security man of the Bratunac Brigade.
18 Q. Well, we're going to go step by step. First of all, who arranged
19 for this individual, this prisoner, to be handed over to the
20 Bratunac Brigade?
21 A. I informed the duty operations man in Bratunac and said that I had
22 a prisoner, because Bratunac was nearby. We were short of fuel. And
23 that's why he was handed over to Bratunac, and also because he was a
24 native of Bratunac. So I felt they would be better able to interview him.
25 Those are the reasons.
1 Q. All right. Now, you said that he was received by Momir Nikolic.
2 First of all, how do you know -- did you know Momir Nikolic at the time?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I take it you knew his position within the Bratunac Brigade?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, what -- how is it that you know that he was received by
7 Momir Nikolic?
8 A. The prisoner was taken by a van driven by Marko Savic. He took
9 him to the Bratunac Brigade. When he returned, he reported to me and said
10 he had handed him over and that he had been received by Momir Nikolic.
11 Q. All right. Now, that was the 13th or the morning of the 14th?
12 Which of the two?
13 A. It was on the morning of the 14th. He had spent the night of the
14 command trench of the 1st Company.
15 Q. All right. Now, let's focus on the 14th. What, if anything,
16 unusual happened on that day, other than this one incident that you talked
17 about, sending the prisoner to Bratunac? What, if anything else, occurred
18 in your battalion?
19 A. Nothing happened during the day, except that in the evening of the
20 14th one of my soldiers was killed. He was in the last trench of the
21 1st Company.
22 Q. All right. Does this -- do you recall who the individual was that
23 was killed?
24 A. Yes, I do. His name was Djordje Vukosavljevic.
25 Q. All right. And could you tell us the circumstances. How was he
2 A. Outside his dugout - we referred to them as trenches, but they
3 were actually dugouts - the last one on the right side, he had to stand
4 guard. He was standing by a tree smoking a cigarette. And a soldier came
5 up to him from behind. Milosevic, Dragan, was also there with him, also
6 standing guard. There was a burst of gunfire and a bullet hit
7 Djordje Vukosavljevic in the upper leg, and he bled. And he died on the
8 way to hospital to -- as we were transporting him to Bratunac. He bled to
10 Q. All right. Now, let me take it again step by step. Once
11 this -- when this incident occurred, your soldier, was he just standing
12 guard or was he advancing into some territory looking for any Muslims that
13 were coming through?
14 A. He was standing guard outside his trench, outside his dugout, next
15 to the dugout.
16 Q. All right. Do you know whether there were any casualties on the
17 other side, the person that shot him?
18 A. Yes. I think that this other soldier who opened fire on him also
19 got killed.
20 Q. All right. Now, the other soldier, you're talking about the
21 Muslim soldier?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, where were you when this incident occurred?
24 A. When the incident occurred, I was at the command 2 kilometres from
25 the asphalt road.
1 Q. And upon learning about this -- of this incident, what did you do?
2 A. I called the van which was parked outside the kitchen, and we left
3 for about -- we drove for about a kilometre or a kilometre and a half or
4 as long as we could drive. They took down the wounded,
5 Djordje Vukosavljevic. We placed him in the van and transported him to
6 hospital in Bratunac.
7 Q. Who took him to Bratunac?
8 A. The driver was Marko Savic.
9 Q. Was anyone else with the driver?
10 A. Yes, I was with the driver.
11 Q. You were the commander. Why would you leave your battalion to
12 drive a soldier to the hospital in Bratunac?
13 A. It was the first of my soldiers who sustained serious wounds. It
14 was very difficult for me. I had to go, and I left my deputy behind. And
15 then Bratunac was not so far away and I knew I would be back soon.
16 Q. How long did it take you to get to Bratunac?
17 A. It took us somewhere between 15 and 20 minutes.
18 Q. And this is the evening or the night of the 15th of July.
20 A. It was during the night between the 14th and the 15th of July. So
21 it was after 12.00, the night of the 14th.
22 Q. All right. Now, how long did it take you to -- you already
23 answered that question.
24 During that 15 or 20 minutes that it took you to get to Bratunac,
25 did you notice anything on the road, any activity, going on?
1 A. No, I -- there was no activity whatsoever at that time from
2 Kajici, from that point near the asphalt road all the way to Bratunac.
3 Q. Now, from that asphalt road you would have to go through
4 Konjevic Polje, Sandici, Kravica, Bratunac. Is that the way you would go?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. Well, which way would you go?
7 A. After I left the command, I went down to the asphalt road at
8 Kajici and then continued to the right for about 12 to 15 kilometres
9 towards Bratunac; whereas Kravica, Sandici and Konjevic Polje are located
10 on the other side, in the direction of Zvornik.
11 Q. Now, what happened when you took -- I understand it from your
12 testimony that your soldier died on the way to the hospital. Is that
14 A. Yes. When we got there, the physician established that he was
15 dead. And he also indicated that even if he had been there on the spot
16 that he would not have been able to save him.
17 Q. All right. So what did you do after that?
18 A. That day in the evening, I went back to the command. The
19 following day, that is on the 15th, I tried to get in touch with the
20 family of Djordje Vukosavljevic. They were in Novi Sad at the time. He
21 had a brother-in-law, Ljubisav Peric at Zvornik, and I tried to get in
22 touch with him to see where we would bury him. I was successful only on
23 the -- in the afternoon of the 15th. I managed to get in touch with him,
24 and he promised that he would be in Sopotnik at 1700. This is where
25 Djordje Vukosavljevic had a house.
1 Q. All right. And what happened then?
2 A. After that, together with a couple of other soldiers, we went to
3 Bratunac and we took over the body of Djordje Vukosavljevic. And then we
4 drove again along the road, Sandici, Konjevic Polje, Drinjaca, to take the
5 body of Djordje Vukosavljevic.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get all of the locations.
7 MR. KARNAVAS:
8 Q. Okay. What were the locations again. You went from Sandici,
9 Konjevic Polje -- what were the other locations?
10 A. Sandici, Konjevic Polje, right in the direction of Zvornik,
11 Drinjaca, and then further towards Bratunac, Sopotnik, near the Drina,
12 located some 3 kilometres away from Drinjaca.
13 Q. Now, during that trip did you notice anything unusual on the road
14 or on the side of the road?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you please describe to us what it is that you saw.
17 A. Along the entire road from Kravica to Konjevic Polje, I saw police
18 officers standing by the road. There was a large number of killed people
19 alongside the road and also on the meadows around the road. Most of the
20 bodies were near Sandici.
21 Q. Did you stop to find out what was going on over there?
22 A. No, I didn't stop. After all, I was driving the body of
23 Djordje Vukosavljevic. I could observe what was going on from the van.
24 Q. Okay. Well, what were you able to observe then? Was something
1 A. I saw the police and I saw the bodies, but at the very moment as I
2 was passing through, I didn't see anything in particular going on.
3 Q. Now, you say you saw the police. Where were the police from, if
4 you know?
5 A. No, I didn't recognise anyone on that road.
6 Q. So -- okay. You're travelling along the road. You have the body
7 of your dead soldier. What do you do from there?
8 A. When I arrived in Sopotnik with the remains of
9 Djordje Vukosavljevic, we had to wait for quite some time. Peric failed
10 to show up and it got dark. We were afraid for our safety because we had
11 to go back to the unit and I had seen a large number of killed people. So
12 it was still possible for the fighting to be taking place in the area. So
13 we decided -- we asked that the neighbour of the late
14 Djordje Vukosavljevic to stay there for a while and wait for his
15 brother-in-law to come and unlock the house. And we went back to the
16 command, which was located 2 kilometres from the road.
17 Q. Could you -- now, which day would this be?
18 A. This would have been in the evening of the 15th.
19 Q. Could you please tell us about what time did you arrive back at
20 your command post on the evening of the 15th.
21 A. At about 9.00 p.m.
22 Q. Were you informed upon your arrival that anything -- or if
23 anything had happened during your absence?
24 A. When I arrived, I asked if anything had happened in the meantime,
25 and they told me that nothing of any significance had happened while I was
2 Q. Did anything happen that particular night, the night of the 15th,
3 after you arrived?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did anything happen -- okay. Let's move on to the 16th.
6 Do you recall what, if anything, happened on the 16th?
7 A. No, nothing happened on the 16th.
8 Q. What about the 17th?
9 A. On the 17th, nothing in particular happened at the line, except
10 that we had received an order from Pandurevic, the Zvornik Brigade
11 commander, to get ready to collect the equipment and that we would be
12 moving to Zvornik in the morning of the 19th.
13 Q. All right. And -- so how was that day spent?
14 A. Well, I stayed at the command. I visited the 1st Company also,
15 because of the death of the soldier. I talked to the men a little,
16 because he was the first victim during my command. And nothing else
18 Q. Did you receive any other orders or any orders with respect to
19 searching the terrain?
20 A. No, we didn't receive any order on the 16th.
21 Q. Now I'm on the 17th. We talked about the 16th, nothing happened.
22 The 17th, you got the order from Pandurevic to begin dismantling the post
23 by the 19th. So we're still on -- we're on the 17th. So on the 17th,
24 other than Pandurevic's order, did you receive any other orders or
1 A. I'm not sure, but I think that it was either on the 17th or the
2 18th that we were informed by telephone from the Bratunac Brigade that 20
3 troops should be set aside for the search of the terrain. The assembly
4 point was supposed to be at Sandici.
5 Q. All right. Do you recall who from the Bratunac Brigade informed
6 you, the individual's name or their position?
7 A. My communications man. I did not talk to them directly.
8 Q. Did they explain exactly where this search would take place?
9 A. I was told that 20 soldiers should come to Sandici, that we should
10 go there with 20 soldiers, which is what we did. I think it was about ten
11 hours that we did that. We got a guide for our group, and we also
12 received instructions as to which particular area we had to search.
13 Q. Where did this guide come from?
14 A. I didn't know the man, but when I arrived they told me that he was
15 the guide and they wanted to know who belonged to the 4th Battalion.
16 Q. All right. Well, didn't you make any small talk with this guide
17 to find out what village he's from, what's his name, what unit he's
18 attached to?
19 A. I don't know. He was a farmer, a villager, from the area, a local
20 who was familiar with the terrain.
21 Q. Was he dressed in a uniform?
22 A. No, he wasn't.
23 Q. Did he have a weapon with him?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now, where did this guide take you?
1 A. We went to the left from Sandici. We covered an area of about 2
2 to 300 metres uphill. And we ended up at the bridge near Kasaba, where
3 some sort of military command was located. We arrived in the evening. We
4 were rather tired. They gave us something to eat, and we spent some time
5 resting there until a bus arrived to take us back to the battalion
7 Q. All right. Now, you said that you covered an area of about 2 to
8 300 metres uphill. And my question is: During this searching of that
9 particular terrain, whether you came across any individuals, any Muslim
11 A. On the way from Sandici, there were, along the road and into the
12 forest, there were bodies of dead Muslims that had already swollen. I
13 mean, their bodies had been there for a while and we could already feel a
14 stench. And some of my soldiers were throwing up.
15 Q. Did you come across anyone who was alive giving themselves up?
16 A. No, we didn't. Until we reached Kasaba. When we were in the
17 vicinity of Kasaba, we would hear a shot from time to time. And when we
18 came closer, we saw an old man guarding sheep. He had a very short -- a
19 short-barrelled rifle, which had a very strange sound when he opened fire.
20 Q. All right. Was he Serb or was he a Muslim or a Croat or a Roma?
21 A. He was a Serb. I think that his name was Staco.
22 Q. All right. But did you come across any Muslims that were alive
23 there giving themselves up or maybe even resisting?
24 A. No, we didn't come across anyone or any resistance whatsoever.
25 Q. Could you please describe to us the route that you took after you
1 finished your search. How did you get back to your command post? And
2 take it slowly, step by step.
3 A. After the meal and after this rest, a bus arrived sometime in the
4 evening. We boarded the bus near the bridge at Kasaba and started driving
5 towards Konjevic Polje, and thereafter towards Kravica. When we reached
6 the village of Lolici, we saw three buses parked near the asphalt road
7 carrying people, Muslims. They were sitting in the bus. There was a
8 large group of people around these buses. There was soldiers and police
9 officers as well. We couldn't get through with our bus because of them,
10 so the bus went back to Kasaba and we continued on foot towards the
12 Q. When you got off the bus that was carrying you and your men
13 because it could not get through, did you by any chance stop and talk with
14 any of those police officers or soldiers that were there with the Muslims
15 that were in the three buses that had been parked?
16 A. No, I didn't talk to anyone, and I didn't know any of those
17 people. If I had known them, maybe I would have talked to them.
18 Q. Do you know from what unit they were from?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Could you please tell us about what time this would have been.
21 A. It would have been sometime in the evening. I finally arrived in
22 the command at about 10.00 p.m., perhaps even a little later.
23 Q. All right. And from the point where you were let off the bus and
24 walked back to your command, how many kilometres are we talking about?
25 A. From Lolici, I went for about 10 to 11 kilometres on foot.
1 Q. And in light of the terrain, how long would it have taken you to
2 travel that distance?
3 A. Most of it was asphalt road, and I needed two to two and a half
5 Q. All right. Now, Lolici, where is that exactly so we know? We
6 know where Kravica is and we know further down there's Sandici, and
7 further down there's Konjevic Polje. Where is Lolici in relation to this
9 A. When you leave Kravica, you first come across Sandici. Then you
10 go downhill for some time. And then the first village you come across is
11 Lolici, going in the direction of Konjevic Polje.
12 Q. All right. Thank you.
13 Now, sticking to this topic of searching the terrain, who were you
14 searching the terrain with, which units, if you know?
15 A. I took some men from my command, also some members of the mortar
16 crew, a few of the younger ones who I knew would be able to cover this
17 area on foot. Others were rather tired because of the equipment they had
18 had to carry. So all of these men were from my unit, but I didn't know
19 the other units. There was one unit to the right from us, consisting
20 mainly of the police. There were others as well, but I didn't know them.
21 I didn't recognise any of them.
22 Q. All right. Now, the police, did you recognise where they were
24 A. No.
25 Q. Could you please tell us how they were dressed.
1 A. Some of them wore blue uniforms. And on the way to Kasaba near
2 the bus, I saw a couple of military policemen.
3 Q. All right. Now, you're searching the terrain. You've got
4 neighbours to your left; you've got neighbours to your right. Help me out
5 here. How can you possibly be out there searching in this terrain, which
6 you don't really know, with neighbours right next to you and not know who
7 they are?
8 A. Well, I'm not from the area. I don't know the locals. I knew
9 several people from the Bratunac Brigade, those who were manning the
10 trenches next to my battalion. But I had never seen these people before
11 that. I didn't know the area; I didn't know the people. I didn't even
12 know the soldiers from the 1st Battalion who were next to me.
13 Q. Who was coordinating this searching operation? That's what I'm
14 trying to get at. And how can you be out there in this strange terrain
15 trying to search and not have some sort of a coordinating effort with your
16 right and left neighbour?
17 A. To my right there were soldiers and police officers, but I was the
18 only one to the left. We went the furthest towards Kasaba. We had been
19 assigned this guide, and the order had come from the Bratunac Brigade. So
20 it is my assumption that it was coordinated by someone from the
21 Bratunac Brigade, but I'm not sure.
22 Q. All right. When you got to the field, though, didn't you ask, you
23 know: Who is in charge? Who is coordinating?
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
25 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. I believe the witness answered
1 the question from counsel. He's now trying to get a different answer.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: On the contrary, Your Honour, I anticipate the
3 questions that the Prosecution will ask and I'm asking them myself, and I
4 think this is important information, who, you know, who contacted him.
5 And in light of the questions that have come from previous witnesses, I'm
6 picking up their strategy and trying to anticipate, make it a little bit
7 more efficient.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
9 MR. WAESPI: Well, there is difference between cross-examination
10 and examination by the counsel, and he asked: "Who was coordinating this
11 search operation? That's what I'm trying to get at."
12 That was Mr. Karnavas's question.
13 And then the witness answered and said: "So, it's my assumption
14 that it was coordinated by someone from the Bratunac Brigade, but I'm not
15 sure." That was his answer.
16 And then the counsel continues with exactly the same question:
17 "Who is coordinating?"
18 So I don't know whether the witness can be of any further
20 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm asking why he didn't ask who was coordinating.
21 He doesn't know, but why? He's the commander. He's got 20 men out there.
22 It's terrain unfamiliar to him. Why wouldn't he -- because it would seem
23 like a logical question in everybody's mind. Why wouldn't he at least try
24 to say: Hey, who's in charge around here?
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, since this issue is important and you ask your
1 question from a different angle, I'll allow you to continue. But,
2 Mr. Karnavas, I think we have to speed up a little bit. How long are you
3 going to do your direct examination?
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I have -- I am -- if I don't have any
5 more interruptions, I will be able to finish this area and then I want to
6 go through some documents. Again, I don't want to give the opportunity of
7 the Prosecution to ask the questions that should be asked by the Defence
8 on direct, but I think probably another 20 minutes.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, I hope you could finish your direct examination
10 within this sitting.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll try, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
14 Q. Can you give us an explanation why you didn't ask who was in
15 charge, who was coordinating?
16 A. Well, I was going there with my men. I had been given a guide.
17 We didn't have contact with the others. He just took us along the route
18 we were supposed to take. I didn't really have contact with the other
20 Q. Very well. Now, after that when you got back to your command
21 post, could you please tell us what you did.
22 A. Nothing. I just asked if there were any news. I was tired and I
23 fell asleep.
24 Q. All right. Now, how much longer -- how many more days, weeks,
25 were you with the Bratunac Brigade?
1 A. I'm not sure about the date, whether it was the last day of my
2 stay in the Bratunac Brigade or the day before. So it would have been
3 either the 17th or the 18th. On the 19th, I went to Zvornik.
4 Q. What about the -- you say you went. What about your men?
5 A. Together with my men.
6 Q. What about the facilities there?
7 A. It had all been carried on on the 19th in the morning. All the
8 blankets and the mattresses and the equipment, and this was all already
9 loaded on the truck. And then a bus came and we all went to Zvornik.
10 Q. All right. So if I understand you correctly, the -- your command
11 post was dismantled at that point?
12 A. Yes. It was only a gutted house that we had managed to make do
14 Q. All right. Now, I want to go through some documents with you real
15 quickly and see what, if anything, we can make of them. Let me first show
16 you what had been marked for identification purposes as P413.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: We can put this on the ELMO, with the Court's
19 Q. Sir, do you recognise what this document is?
20 A. Yes. This is a combat report of the Bratunac Brigade.
21 Q. And what date is it?
22 A. The 9th.
23 Q. Is it the 9th or the 8th?
24 A. It's the 8th.
25 Q. Okay. Now, if you could look at paragraph number 1. It says
1 here: "The enemy launched a mock attack from the direction of Kosa on the
2 right flank of the 4th Infantry Battalion."
3 Now, is that you, sir?
4 A. Yes. I was the 4th Battalion.
5 Q. Did that occur, sir? Did the enemy launch a mock attack on the
6 direction -- on that particular direction on the 8th of July, 1995?
7 A. I don't recall this happening. I don't think it did.
8 Q. All right. Now, we go down to paragraph 2, and it says: "Our
9 forces repulsed the attack on the right flank of the 4th Battalion and
10 retaliated by firing at set targets."
11 Did you repulse any attack on the 8th of July, 1995?
12 A. Throughout the two years we were up there, we were not attacked
13 once. But it did happen that game, wild animals, activated the trip-wire
14 mines in front of the line. The soldiers would think this was an attack
15 and they would fire thousands of bullets, but these were not attacks. We
16 were never attacked. It's possible that an attack was reported, but I
17 don't know that the line was attacked. We checked several times later and
18 then we would find a boar or a deer that had activated the trip-wire mine.
19 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, I want to show you another document,
20 and this will be introduced as D141. It's an intercept -- oh, I'm sorry.
21 It's -- I'm told it's P196. If you could look at this document, sir, and
22 it says: "1440 hours." Do you recall --
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, do we have the right document on the ELMO?.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't know.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, okay. I'm sorry.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes.
2 Q. Do you see this document, sir? Mr. Petrovic, have you seen this
3 document before?
4 A. In Banja Luka I had documents before me, but I didn't have my
5 glasses with me. So I couldn't read them. So even if I was shown this
6 document, I don't recognise it.
7 Q. But in Banja Luka they did inform you the contents of the
8 document, did they not?
9 A. No. The interpreter just told me some things from the document,
10 but nobody read out to me the entire document.
11 Q. But do you recall being pointed out -- being shown a document or
12 being read a portion of a document where there was this conversation. And
13 in part -- in the middle of the conversation, one person is saying:
14 "Radika, Radika."
15 Do you recall that?
16 A. Yes, I remember that.
17 Q. Now, today you have your reading glasses, and you have looked at
18 this, have you not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, could you please tell us whether the conversation that is
21 occurring in here, assuming, assuming - and I underscore that - that the
22 intercept is accurate, are you in this intercept?
23 A. I did not talk to anyone then. At this time, once while I was at
24 the front line, they tried to transmit a conversation with Ognjenovic. I
25 was on the line, and my communications man was telling me what Ognjenovic
1 was saying. As far as I can remember, it was about searching the terrain
2 in the direction of Bokcin Potok. I refused the task because there were
3 many mines there. I didn't have any maps. My deputy had been killed by
4 those mines, and so had his brother. The mines had been laid down by the
5 5th Battalion from Konjevic Polje, and nobody had informed us of this.
6 That's why I didn't want to carry out this task, and I couldn't have done
7 it. I remember that conversation, but I didn't speak to Ognjenovic
8 directly. The communications man was telling me what he was saying, and I
9 was responding in this way.
10 Q. All right. But let me make sure that we all understand. This
11 intercept, does it reflect what you just told us, that this is a
12 conversation between someone and Ognjenovic, with you being informed of
13 the contents of the conversation?
14 A. This is not a conversation I took part in.
15 Q. Well, it says here: "Radika, Radika." Page 2. How many more
16 Radikas are there in this area?
17 A. I was the only Radika. There was another one in Milici. It's a
18 rare name. I don't know of any other Radikas. In Milici, there's only
19 one other Radika, but this is not my -- these are not my words because
20 he's asking me when I would go home to my native area, and it only took me
21 half an hour to get to my native Zelinje from the command post.
22 Q. All right. And what if we look at the first few lines. X says:
23 "Would you explain to us what's happening over there in your place."
24 And Y says: "They tried early this morning to pass between us and
25 the adjacent 4th Battalion."
1 X says: "Yes."
2 Now, aren't you the 4th Battalion?
3 A. Yes, but it says here he's saying somebody tried to pass between
4 them and me, so it's not a conversation with me. It's not a
5 conversation -- he's saying between "us and the 4th Battalion," but I was
6 the 4th Battalion. So I wouldn't be saying between us and us. This is a
7 conversation with somebody else, probably the Milici Battalion.
8 Q. Well -- then if you go back to the second page. X who says:
9 "Hello." And Y who says: "Yes." And the second page Y says: "Hold on."
10 And C says: "Hello."
11 And then X says: "Radika, Radika."
12 And C, presumably Radika, I guess: "Just a moment. How are you?
13 Are you doing all right?"
14 And then X says: "Yes. How are you, Rado?"
15 C says: "I'm fine."
16 X: "I'm glad to hear that. When are you going to your home
18 C says: "Very soon."
19 X says: "I'm happy for you."
20 And C says: "You're invited to come," and so on.
21 Now, it would appear from that conversation that C is someone
22 named Radika, who might also go by the nickname of Rado. Would that tell
23 us, perhaps, that you might be one of those individuals being referred to
24 in this particular intercept?
25 A. No, nobody calls me "Rado."
1 Q. Do you have a nickname?
2 A. They call me Rade.
3 Q. All right. And you said that your home place is in that vicinity?
4 A. Yes. Only my family calls me Rade.
5 Q. Where are you from? It says: "When are you going to your home
7 Where is your home place?
8 A. I'm from Zelinje. I just had to go across the hill from Kajici,
9 and I would be home.
10 Q. Let me go on to another document. Let me show you what has been
11 marked as P179. Have you seen this document, sir, before?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, was this shown to you when you were in Banja Luka?
14 A. Yes, and the interpreter even read it out to me.
15 Q. All right. Now you have your glasses and you're able to read it
16 as well. Correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, in this intercept, does this in any way have anything to do
19 with you or your battalion?
20 A. This intercept, no. No, it doesn't. I did inform both the
21 Bratunac Brigade and the Zvornik Brigade on the morning of the 12th that
22 at Jaglici I had noticed between 100 and 200 men, and that they were
23 turning towards my battalion. But in this intercept, mention is made of
24 villages of which I do not know the location. I don't know which of these
25 places is inhabited, so I couldn't have reported this. I don't know about
1 this Milickos [phoen] village. I've never been there. And in this second
2 paragraph that they had been observing these columns since 3.00, but my
3 men observed them between 6.00 and 7.00. So neither I, nor the 1st
4 Company knew about these men; we couldn't have seen them. We saw them
5 when they arrived at the Jaglici hill. They were on the slope and then
6 they turned towards us. But Jaglici was higher up from where I was. And
7 the terrain slopes down from Jaglici towards Srebrenica, so I could not
8 have seen this.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honours, I'm going to need at least another
11 10, maybe 15 minutes in order to go through all these documents. They
12 were shown to him. They were questioned -- he was questioned about them.
13 And there is something from the Butler report that I need to clear up as
14 well. So I would -- I think I have another 15 minutes.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well -- yes, we'll take a break, and we'll resume at
16 10 minutes to 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
19 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Mr. Petrovic, I want to go through some documents here. Let me
22 show you what has been marked as P483. Now, could you please look at
23 that, sir, and just -- specifically, I want you to focus on paragraph
24 number 4. But first, if you could look at it and tell us what you believe
25 this to be, this document.
1 A. This is an order, an order of the Bratunac Brigade.
2 Q. What is the date of this order, sir?
3 A. 14th of July, 1995.
4 Q. All right. Now, if we look at paragraph 4, it would appear, sir,
5 that this paragraph makes reference to your battalion, the 4th Battalion,
6 does it not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, could you please read that -- well, you don't have to read it
9 out loud. I want you to read it to yourself, because I am going to ask
10 you whether, in fact, what is reflected in paragraph 4 was carried out
11 pursuant to the order of 14 July 1995 from the commander of the
12 Bratunac Brigade, Vidoje Blagojevic.
13 A. I've read it.
14 Q. All right. Now, did you carry out this order, sir?
15 A. The order was carried out. We constantly controlled from our
16 positions the area of Lupoglav to Ravni Buljin. This was the area in
17 front of our first line of defence. In the depth as far as
18 Mratinjsko Brdo, I never controlled that, nor could I have done it. It
19 was far behind me. To the right of me, there were forces from Vlasenica.
20 Whether there was anyone else there, I don't know. And they were spread
21 out towards Siljkovici, and were able to see Mratinjsko Brdo.
22 Q. Now, I want to focus on the word "control," because paragraph
23 says: "From its position, the 4th Infantry Battalion will control the
24 area in front of it, spreading, spreading," I'm underscoring that word,
25 "from Lupoglav to Ravni Buljin, and reaching forward as far as" -- and it
1 tells you the other locations all the way to Sandici. Now, what does
2 control mean as far as you understood that word to mean back then?
3 A. I understood it to mean from my line of defence, from the
4 trenches, people were to observe the area, observe to see whether there
5 were any units or activities in that area and to see what was happening
7 Q. Now, moving along it says: "Spreading from Lupoglav to
8 Ravni Buljim."
9 What did you understand the word "spreading" to mean?
10 A. This is the area in front of me which I can see, but I couldn't go
11 there because there was a minefield. The woods had been cut down and a
12 minefield had been put there. So my soldiers never actually crossed the
13 50 metres in front of the line.
14 Q. Who put that minefield there, by the way?
15 A. The engineer's unit from the Zvornik Brigade.
16 Q. And do you know the individual who was in charge of that
18 A. The komandir of that unit was Dragan Jokic. And it was the men
19 who laid down mines in his unit.
20 Q. All right. Now, thank you.
21 Now, if I could show you the map that you looked at and, in fact,
22 marked yesterday. And it's D138 for identification. And I want to do a
23 couple of things. First and foremost, if you could, sir, on the map
24 itself, as you did yesterday, locate for us and mark where the 1st Company
25 and where the 2nd Company were actually located at that point in time.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: I need to have the gentleman mark it actually.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st Company was located, looking
3 at this map now, to the right of elevation 651, to the right of elevation
5 Shall I mark it?
6 MR. KARNAVAS:
7 Q. Yes, please.
8 A. [Witness complies]
9 Q. All right. Now, could you -- we need to make sure that we can
10 visibly see it later on after you leave. So could you please at least
11 mark it a little bit heavier. And then maybe also notate on the map
12 itself which company are we talking about.
13 A. [Witness complies]
14 Q. Okay. That's the 1st Company. Where is the 2nd Company located?
15 A. [Witness complies]
16 Q. Now, looking at the map and looking at paragraph 4 --
17 A. [Witness complies]
18 Q. All right. And looking at paragraph 4, could you please just
19 point to us, don't mark, point to us the areas which you are to control.
20 A. [Witness complies]
21 Q. All right. And that's the -- on the map it says -- on itself it
22 says Ravna Gora. Is that correct? That's the area that you pointed?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, it says here on paragraph 4: "Spreading from Lupoglav to
25 Ravni Buljim."
1 Now, can you point out where Lupoglav and Ravni Buljin are
3 A. [Witness complies]
4 Q. So Lupoglav is by 675 and Ravni Buljin would be 620 on the map;
5 those points.
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Could you tell us the distance between the 1st Company and the
8 2nd Company in relation to those two points, Lupoglav and Ravni Buljim.
9 A. 2 to 3 kilometres ahead of us.
10 Q. Could you please describe to us the terrain, the condition of the
12 A. There was a brook in front of us. The area is wooded and somewhat
13 more elevated than our spot. And in front of us there's only the forest.
14 All we can see is Jaglica Kosa, where there is a little meadow on the
15 hill. The rest is only the woods. We couldn't see anyone unless the
16 moved to the area until where the trees had been felled.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. Some 50 metres in front of us.
19 Q. And could you please locate, if you can, where is -- where are the
20 two other points -- because it says you are to spread out from Lupoglav to
21 Ravni Buljin and reaching forwards as far as Mratinjsko Brdo and Sandici.
22 Where are those locations?
23 A. Mratinjsko Brdo and Sandici.
24 Q. Mratinjsko Brdo is on point 629, and Sandici is on which point?
25 A. [Witness complies]
1 Q. Okay. We don't have a point for it, but it looks like it's
2 further -- a bit south, south-west, from point 334.
3 What is the distance, what is the distance, from the 1st and
4 2nd Company to those two locations?
5 A. Over 6 kilometres.
6 Q. And what is the terrain like?
7 A. Our defence line and Mratinjsko Brdo is separated by Bokcin
8 Potok. In order to reach Mratinjsko Brdo we would have to walk for 3
9 kilometres to Brezanci, where Milicki Battalion was located. And then
10 after Milicki Battalion, you have the area known as Mratinjsko Brdo, but
11 we never went there, we'd never been there. As for Ravni Buljin, this is
12 where the Milici Brigade was located, at 620 elevation point.
13 Q. Right. Now, if we look at this map, could you tell us from which
14 direction the column would have been going through, what territory, what
15 terrain? If we could move it up. If you could show us again. Where was
16 the Muslim column going through?
17 A. [Witness complies]
18 Q. Okay. Where were they coming from?
19 A. From Jaglici.
20 Q. So from those two points, between points 675 and 628, that's where
21 they were coming through. And that would have been to the west,
22 south-west, of where the 1st Company was located?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Thank you. I believe I have nothing further on that,
25 but I want to share with you -- I want to share with you what an employee
1 of the Prosecution has told us in his report, a Mr. Richard Butler. And
2 I'm referring to the Srebrenica narrative, revised, 1 November 2002. And
3 I must apologise, I don't have the identification number, exhibit number,
4 for this document. But I believe it is indeed in evidence and we
5 can -- perhaps we can be assisted by the registrar.
6 I want to focus your attention on what this employee of the
7 Prosecution has stated in paragraph 6.13, 14, and 15. I want you to look
8 at it first of all. Could you please -- oh, I'm sorry. We don't have the
9 Srpski version. Let me just read a part of this. And I'm reading from
10 paragraph 6.14 where it says -- it talks about your particular battalion.
11 It says: "While responsible for part of the area, Kravica and Sandici
12 fell specifically into the zone of the 4th Infantry Battalion."
13 So this gentleman is stating that Kravica and Sandici fell
14 specifically into your zone. So my question to you, sir, is: Is that a
16 A. No.
17 Q. Well, how -- well, explain that to us. How can this eminent
18 employee of the Prosecution make such a statement in a document?
19 A. My battalion, if the unit could indeed be called a battalion,
20 those 60 men were manning the defence line, consisting of 15 trenches.
21 There was no unit whatsoever behind that line that would have controlled
22 the area. We just had the defence line that we had to control; we didn't
23 have an area. At Kravica there was a police station, civilian police
24 station. The area was inhabited; people lived there. And we never
25 controlled that area; this was the job of the local police. We only had
1 our defence line to control. From 555 to 651, 15 trenches.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. So I take it you find this piece of
3 information, this statement in this report, to be incorrect?
4 A. It is indeed incorrect.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I want to go through some other documents
6 very quickly. Let me show you what has been marked as D136 for
7 identification. Very briefly, if you could look at that document. You
8 have it in Srpski. Do you recognise this document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what is this, sir?
11 A. This is a certificate for the wounding and the death of
12 Djordje Vukasavljevic, a member of the 1st Company.
13 Q. And it reflects the date of 15 July 1995 as the date of his death?
14 A. Yes. It was during the night between the 14th and the 15th that
15 he passed away.
16 Q. All right. And in fact, if we look at the description, it even
17 states that it's 20 minutes into July 15th, doesn't it, under the -- where
18 it says: "Description of incident." And it even gives the exact trig
19 point of 651. Is that right?
20 A. Yes, that is correct. 20 minutes after midnight, right at the
21 beginning of the day of the 15th of the -- of July. In the last trench to
22 the right at the trig point 651.
23 Q. Just one point of clarification. On the date at the bottom, it
24 says 17 July 1995. And it says: "In Kajici."
25 Do you see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, were -- is that where it was signed, in Kajici?
3 A. This was written at the command, so a kilometre and a half from
4 Kajici, but we considered it to be the area of Kajici. And this is the
5 date when the certificate was issued.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.
7 Now, let me show you what has been marked or what has been
8 introduced as P503. If you could look at this document, sir. This is a
9 daily combat report, is it not, sir? That's what it's titled?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the date, it would appear to be 18 July 1995?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If I could focus your attention to paragraph number 2. It states:
14 "During the day," one would suspect that being the 18th of July, "our
15 units of the 3rd Infantry Battalion, the 4th Battalion, and people
16 mobilised for compulsory labour are searching the terrain in the area of
17 Pobudje and," I can't pronounce the other name, "and Konjevic Polje."
18 Do you see that, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, looking at this daily combat report dated July 18th, 1995,
21 could you please tell us whether it was on this particular day that you
22 searched the terrain.
23 A. As I have already indicated, yes; however, I was not sure whether
24 it was on the 17th or the 18th.
25 Q. Well, which is more correct, this document which says the 18th or
1 your belief that it could have been the 17th or the 18th?
2 A. The document is more correct.
3 Q. Okay. And so the next day would have been the day that your
4 battalion was dismantled and went to Zvornik?
5 A. It's not that the battalion was dismantled. We just left, all of
6 us, for Zvornik.
7 Q. All right. Incidentally, did you send in a daily report yourself
8 to the brigade to let them know that you had carried out this task on the
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Were you keeping contact with the brigade on those days?
12 A. I arrived late on the night of the 18th. We did not have any
13 results to report on; we hadn't found anyone. And on the next morning, we
14 left for Zvornik. And on the 19th, I no longer had opportunity to report.
15 Q. Incidentally, when you lost that man, did you report that to the
16 Bratunac Brigade, that you had lost a man?
17 A. No, I didn't. I informed the Zvornik Brigade of that.
18 Q. And why did you inform the Zvornik Brigade and not the
19 Bratunac Brigade?
20 A. Well, all of our files were at the Zvornik Brigade in Zvornik. We
21 happened to be out in the field carrying out specific tasks, the same as
22 happened with people going to Pjenovac, for instance. Normally they were
23 members of the Zvornik Brigade. And then troops were being rotated, so
24 men were either at Pjenovac or performing some other task elsewhere. The
25 tasks were issued by the Zvornik Brigade; they were the ones who told us
1 where we were supposed to go.
2 Q. All right. Now, let me show you what has been marked for
3 identification purposes as D139, just to nail the point down. If you
4 could look at this. Do you recognise this, sir?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And what is it, sir?
7 A. This document is attendance record which was kept by our battalion
8 clerk, who was in charge of keeping this kind of record.
9 Q. Okay. From which -- it says now on top at the very left-hand
10 corner, it says: "The 8th Infantry Battalion." Correct?
11 A. Yes. All our records were there. We were the 8th Zvornik
12 Battalion, and this is just a normal type of keeping records.
13 Q. And then if you go all the way to the opposite side it says:
14 "July," though we don't know the year. Correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Now, do you say -- do you see your name there on this
18 A. Yes. I'm listed here at number 1.
19 Q. And that's as the commander of the 8th Infantry Battalion?
20 A. Yes. I was always given orders as the commander of the
21 8th Battalion, never as the commander of the 4th Battalion.
22 Q. And those orders were coming from Zvornik, right, the
23 Zvornik Brigade?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. Thank you.
1 Now, I want to show you what is marked for identification purposes
2 as D137. Sir, do you recognise that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you please tell us what is it? What am I showing you?
5 A. Well, you are now showing me my interview from the journalist
6 Drago Gajic from Kravica about my unit.
7 Q. Yes. And this was an interview in a publication called "Drinski."
8 Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. And I believe there's even a date; it's March 1995.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. And the title apparently is: "Portrait of
13 Radika Petrovic, commander of the Zelinje company and deputy commander of
14 2nd Battalion." Well, that's the subject matter. But the headline is:
15 "Where Radika's Army Goes ..."
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, have you read this article?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would it be fair to say that this article, if one reads it, would
21 gain the impression that perhaps you and your men --
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
23 MR. WAESPI: --
24 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase, Your Honour.
25 Q. Give us your impression and be as descriptive and as lengthy as
1 you possibly can be on what is contained in this article with respect to
2 you as the commander and your army, where it goes. Take your time.
3 A. After I read this article, my impression was that it was a form of
4 gratitude on the part of the journalist, Drago Gajic, for the fact that we
5 had come all the way from Zvornik to protect Srebrenica, his hometown. A
6 man who anyone -- who is not familiar with my unit, upon reading this
7 article would get an impression that we were an elite unit, that we were a
8 unit which was able to carry out any task. Whereas, in actual point of
9 fact, anyone who knew the unit and who read this article would laugh at
10 this because he would know that my unit consisted of people older than
11 35 -- 80 per cent of them were older than 35, people who had never taken
12 part in any offensive during the four years of war. They only manned the
13 defence line. And in cases of liberation of some territory, they would
14 take their equipment, their mattresses, and other equipment and then move
15 to that particular line and take up their positions there. They would dig
16 out their trenches, and if Muslims should push them back, they would go
17 back and stay for there a while until other units would come and liberate
18 them and liberate the area. And then again they would take up their
19 mattresses, their backpacks, and take up the newly established position.
20 That was the task of my unit, and that was the kind of unit that we were.
21 Q. But, Mr. Petrovic, if we look at the very last paragraph, it would
22 appear that you are responding --
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
24 MR. WAESPI: Counsel gave him a chance to answer -- to take as
25 much time as he wanted --
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --
2 MR. WAESPI: And he gave his opinion about this article. I don't
3 know why he's being directed now to some other parts.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas --
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --
6 JUDGE LIU: We see very little relevance of this article to the
7 present case.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: There is a lot of relevance of this, Your Honour,
9 because the Prosecution has attempted to make this gentleman out to have
10 some very expansive role during the attack on Srebrenica and thereafter --
11 JUDGE LIU: But this article was written in March.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand. But I'm trying to put context into
13 what is going on. The Prosecution's employee, Richard Butler, in his
14 report states where his unit was located. I don't want this man being
15 confronted on cross-examination. And perhaps Mr. Waespi isn't quite
16 familiar with all the aspects of direct, but I'm certainly entitled to
17 point out to a particular paragraph in light of his statement. And the
18 last paragraph would be in concert with the answer that we just received.
19 JUDGE LIU: I believe that the witness already pointed that out,
20 in a certain way. And we could read the last paragraph and compare with
21 the testimony of this witness.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: So I take it the Prosecution would be forbidden
23 from asking any questions with respect to this document?
24 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't think so. Because you have already used
25 this document on direct.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm afraid, Your Honour, with the most utmost
2 respect --
3 JUDGE LIU: Unless you are not quite satisfied with the answer of
4 this witness or you have some clarification to make, you may proceed.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, on direct examination I'm entitled to
6 anticipate all the cross-examination questions and to ask them myself as
7 opposed to letting for this --
8 JUDGE LIU: But I have to say that there must be a difference
9 between the case in-chief and the case in defence.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, my case will become very clear at my
11 closing argument, but given his -- given his answer previously and what he
12 stated, and if we look at the last paragraph, the gentleman should be
13 given an opportunity at this point in time to explain it. That's all I'm
14 trying to do. But, you know, I'm willing to forego, but I reserve the
15 right to be as active on objecting as I possibly can, because I think the
16 gentleman is not being given a fair opportunity to explain his answer at
17 this point in time. That's my personal belief, based on the objection
18 that we received from the Prosecutor.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
20 MR. WAESPI: I withdraw my objection. He's entitled to ask his
22 JUDGE LIU: And I hope you could finish your questions as soon as
23 possible, Mr. Karnavas.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.
25 Q. If we look at the last paragraph, sir, keeping in mind your
1 previous answer, you say here: "There is no secret. Simply, my unit
2 assists of experienced soldiers who have been through many battles.
3 Anybody would wish for such an army. The morale of the soldiers is high
4 because we know what we are fighting for."
5 And it goes on and on. Now, could you please explain to us the
6 difference between what you stated in this article on March 1995 and the
7 answer that you just previously gave us with respect to the quality of
8 your men and the lack of battle experience.
9 A. The soldiers of my unit had not had any experience with offensive
10 activity. They went into the field only to take up the defence line and
11 to secure the defence lines. They went to Bihac, to Misici, and to other
12 areas, but they never took part in any offensive nor were they able to do
13 it. They simply didn't know how to do it.
14 Q. So is this part of the article, the answer that you are giving to
15 this question, is that correct or incorrect, or accurate, I should say?
16 Is that accurate?
17 A. They never took part in any fighting; therefore, this is
19 Q. All right. Now, let me show you the last document; it's D132.
20 Now, from looking at the document it says that this is an information,
21 though in English it says "report." It's an information from the brigade
22 command of the Bratunac Brigade command dated 4 July 1994. Is that
23 correct? If you could please look at the first page, sir. And could you
24 please tell us whether this is an information for the brigade members from
25 the Bratunac Brigade command dated 4 July 1994.
1 A. I have not had an opportunity of seeing this information, but in
2 paragraph 1, what it says about felling the woods, planned wood felling,
3 yes, we did that. And the area was mined. This was done by the
4 battalion. But I have not had the opportunity of seeing this document
6 Q. Which battalion did that, that was mined and the wood was cut?
7 A. This was done by the rear platoon of the Zvornik Brigade; they
8 felled the wood and mined the area in front of my brigade.
9 Q. Okay. And when was that mined, sir?
10 A. In July 1994.
11 Q. All right. Now, I want you to go to paragraph 2, the very last
12 sentence, where it says: "There will be no retreat when it comes to
13 Srebrenica enclave. We must advance. The enemy's life has to be made
14 unbearable and their temporary stay in the enclave impossible so that they
15 leave the enclave en masse as soon as possible, realising that they cannot
16 survive there."
17 Now, how far did you advance towards the Srebrenica enclave during
18 that entire -- 1994 until the time your battalion was dismantled on the
19 19th of July, 1995? How far did you advance to Srebrenica?
20 A. We never advanced. We were brought to that line from elevation 55
21 to 651, and there we stayed. 555 to 651, and there we stayed until we
22 went to Zvornik.
23 Q. Could you please describe to us, in light of this information,
24 what your battalion did to make the enemy's life unbearable so that their
25 stay or their temporary stay in the enclave to be impossible so they could
1 leave en masse. What did you do during that period, from the date of this
2 information, 4th July, to July 19th, 1995, when your battalion was
4 A. We didn't do anything. Srebrenica is, I don't know exactly how
5 far, but I think 12 to 15 kilometres away from where I was. At the line
6 we had only infantry weapons. We were on the defensive, and we never
7 mounted an attack. We did not move forward by so much as a centimetre.
8 Q. All right. Thank you, sir, I have no further questions. I
9 believe there may be some other questions. If you could be as forthright
10 and honest, I would appreciate it.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
12 Any questions from Mr. Stojanovic?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
14 Good morning, Mr. Petrovic.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will ask only a few questions,
17 Your Honours, in connection with Mr. Petrovic's last several replies.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] As I understand it, in your last reply you say
20 that mines were laid in front of the front line of your defence in July
21 1994. Is this correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You also said that these mines were about 50 metres in front of
24 your front line of defence?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And why were the mines laid there? Why were they put so close to
2 your front line?
3 A. The purpose of these mines was to protect our men from a possible
4 enemy attack.
5 Q. Would it be fair to say that these were defensive minefields of
6 your unit?
7 A. Yes. That's what I said.
8 Q. And just one more question: Do you know who the commanding
9 officer of the Zvornik Brigade was, called Minja Radovic?
10 A. Yes, I do know Minja Radovic.
11 Q. Would it be fair to say that Minja Radovic in July 1994 was the
12 komandir of the engineer's unit of the Zvornik Brigade?
13 A. I don't know whether he was or not, because I spent more time in
14 Kajici than down there in the Zvornik Brigade. But I do know he was an
15 engineers -- in the engineers. I don't know who was the komandir; it's
16 possible it was him.
17 Q. You just said that you thought the komandir of the engineer's unit
18 was Dragan Jokic. I would like to try to clarify this for the record.
19 The defence case of this defence is Jokic was the chief of the engineer's
20 department and Minja Radovic was the komandir of the engineer's company.
21 Is this correct?
22 A. Yes, yes. I was referring to the chief of engineers when I
23 mentioned Jokic. I don't know who was what there, but I thought that
24 Jokic was the chief of the engineers.
25 Q. So he was not the komandir of the engineer's company but the chief
1 of the engineers in the Zvornik Brigade. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We have
4 no further questions.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
6 Any cross-examination? Mr. Waespi.
7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, there will be, Mr. President.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Petrovic.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Let me just take off where Mr. Karnavas left in his examination.
12 He discussed with you that document signed by the former commander,
13 Ognjenovic, Slavko Ognjenovic from the Bratunac Brigade. And I believe
14 you said you had nothing to do with it because your unit never advanced I
15 think a centimetre you said. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But you agree with the goals Mr. Ognjenovic had stated, as read
18 out by Mr. Karnavas. And let me read it to you again.
19 "The enclaves of Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde must be defeated
20 militarily. We must be trained to arm, train, discipline and prepare the
21 RS army for the execution of this crucial task, the expulsion of Muslims
22 from the Srebrenica enclave. There will be no retreat when it comes to
23 the Srebrenica enclave. We must advance. The enemy's life has to be made
24 unbearable and their temporary stay in the enclave impossible so that they
25 leave the enclave en masse as soon as possible, realising that they cannot
1 survive here."
2 You agree with that, don't you?
3 A. I did not have this information, and I am not familiar with this
4 operation, whether it was planned or not. I am not aware of it.
5 Q. But you agree that the Muslims should be expelled from the
6 Srebrenica enclave?
7 A. No.
8 Q. But let me then come back to your article, the last page, the last
9 sentence. Doesn't it state exactly what, what your commander wanted you
10 to do. And I quote: "I would like to tell our soldiers that they should
11 keep up the good work so that they can go until the end and create a
12 Serbian state. So that future generations don't have to do this again."
13 Isn't that the same, getting rid of the Muslims in Srebrenica,
14 creating a Serbian state?
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. That's not the same.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, this question is put to the
17 witness, not you.
18 Witness, you may answer that question, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please clarify who said
21 MR. WAESPI: If the witness could please be shown Defence exhibit
23 Q. Could you please look at the last sentence on the second page.
24 A. I read this. You have to ask Drago Gajic. This is not what I
25 said. He added this. This is no document.
1 Q. Do you know where it was published?
2 A. Yes, in the local newspaper.
3 Q. Did you ask the publisher to make a correction?
4 A. I don't know where this is published.
5 Q. Did you ask the journalist, who was a local from Kravica, to make
6 a correction, to complain with him?
7 A. That was the first time I had seen Drago. I know him now, but I
8 didn't know him then. I didn't know where he lived, where he was, or
10 Q. And just a couple of minutes ago you were asked to comment on this
11 article and that you should take your time. And the only correction I
12 believe you made was: We weren't really elite, we weren't doing defensive
13 actions, we were just defensive. That's the only correction you gave. Do
14 you remember that?
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. He wasn't asked to make any
16 corrections; he was asked to comment. So now the Prosecutor is being
17 unfair with the witness. If the Prosecutor wishes to quote from the
18 actual transcript and find the word "correct," then fine. Other than
19 that, I believe he's misstating the evidence.
20 JUDGE LIU: In this case, corrections and comments are no
22 Maybe, Mr. Waespi, you could use the word "comments," instead of
24 MR. WAESPI: Very well, Mr. President.
25 Q. So you were asked some time ago whether you had any comments and
1 that you should take your time. Do you remember that, that you were asked
2 to do that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And do you remember the comments you made about defensive and
5 offensive actions? Do you remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But at that time you didn't say that the last sentence of this
8 article was not correct?
9 A. I didn't comment it sentence by sentence. I was just saying what
10 I thought about the article in general terms.
11 Q. Now you were also responsible with your troops, in fact, to drive
12 the people, the Muslims, from Kravica into the enclave a couple of years
13 before 1995. Isn't that correct?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. Let me read another sentence out of this article, the first
16 page, towards the end of the English version. And you were asked -- in
17 fact, you answered about an offensive on March 13, 1993, in the direction
18 of Drinjaca, Kamenica, Rasevo, towards Konjevic Polje, and so on.
19 And then, and I quote: "That was the operation to liberate
20 Kravica and force the enemy into the Srebrenica enclave."
21 Do you remember this statement, or is it also something which
22 wasn't correct?
23 A. I told the journalist where the people had passed through. I
24 wasn't the battalion commander when this was done. The battalion
25 commander was Stevo Kubaric; I wasn't. When the unit set out from
1 Drinjaca, I was in hospital. I returned to the unit on the 13th of March
2 in Konjevic Polje, and from there, together with Colonel Pandurevic and my
3 men, I went towards Kravica. But there were forces going ahead of us. We
4 went behind with mattresses, blankets, backpacks, and we stayed where they
5 told us to stay. I was not the battalion commander.
6 Q. Very well. Let me turn to another sentence. Just in the
7 beginning of the article. The journalist said, and I quote: "We visited
8 Radika and his soldiers who keep the people of Kravica and the surrounding
9 areas safe and make him to reminisce about the beginning of the war
10 operations and the combat history of the unit of which he is a commander."
11 Is that true what the journalist says?
12 A. That's what he said.
13 Q. Do you agree with that?
14 A. Yes, yes. He did. He came to visit the unit.
15 Q. And this sentence, the way he reported, is that true, that he
16 visited you and your soldiers who keep the people of Kravica and the
17 surrounding areas safe? Is that true?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So very much like what Mr. Butler said, you had a role in Kravica?
20 Would you agree with me?
21 MR. KARNAVAS: That's not what Mr. Butler said. Mr. Butler said
22 that was his zone of responsibility. There's a big difference between
23 keeping the people safe and being responsible under the military terms of
24 zone of responsibility.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, I see little difference between the two
2 You may proceed, Mr. Waespi.
3 At the same time, the witness could deny any allegations put by
4 the Prosecution.
5 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. So, Mr. Petrovic, don't you think Mr. Butler was right when he
7 said indeed your unit had a role to play in Kravica?
8 A. What period are you referring to?
9 Q. What period did the journalist come to visit you?
10 A. I was not the battalion commander when Kravica was liberated. The
11 battalion commander was Stevo Kubaric, Captain First Class, an active duty
13 Q. Yes I understand. But I'm asking you when did the journalist,
14 Mr. Drago Gajic, come to visit you and your troops in the Kravica area?
15 A. Kravica was free. I came to Kravica on the 22nd of September,
16 1993. This article was published in March of the following year.
17 Q. That's March 1995?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Yes. That's the time Mr. Butler is talking about.
20 A. When I arrived, there was no liberation going on. Kravica was
21 already liberated. I didn't participate in its liberation in any way.
22 Q. Okay. Let's leave this document and go on to -- but stay in
23 Kravica. I believe you testified - and let me quote you - that there was
24 a police station in Kravica. Do you remember that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And that it was inhabited and people lived there. Do you remember
2 saying that today?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, let me tell you what a couple of weeks ago the president of
5 the Executive Board of the Bratunac municipality testified in this very
7 I quote: "There were no local officials in Kravica. Kravica did
8 not have a mayor at that time. Kravica was a deserted settlement at that
9 time; it was not populated."
10 What do you say to that? Who is right? Was it an empty place?
11 Nobody lived there, as this gentleman says, or was it populated, police
12 station, as you're saying? It seems to be two entirely different villages
14 A. The question is what period was this person referring to.
15 Q. What period are you referring to?
16 A. I'm referring to 1995.
17 Q. That's the same period the gentleman referred to. Very well,
18 let's go --
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if we could have a page. Now he's
20 testifying. He quoted from the transcript. He should know the rules. He
21 should quote and tell us where it is, and now he's testifying. He should
22 know the rules by now.
23 MR. WAESPI: I don't believe the Rules require me to state that.
24 The Rules require I have a good-faith belief that it's correct what I'm
25 saying. I'm happy to provide the page; it's page 7.760.
1 Q. Now, staying in Kravica just for a second, do you know about the
2 massacre on Muslims occurring on the 13th of July in the Kravica warehouse
4 A. I do.
5 Q. What do you know about it?
6 A. I know that a lot of people were killed there.
7 Q. And who told you that?
8 A. I heard about it afterwards. Everybody knows it.
9 Q. Can you tell us in days or weeks or months how long afterwards did
10 you hear about that.
11 A. I passed that way for the first time on the 15th. I was upset
12 because a soldier of mine had been killed, so I didn't notice the Muslims.
13 Later on when we went to Zvornik, I saw traces of bullets on Oka. I
14 passed there many times afterwards, and on the Oka building there are
15 still traces to be seen of firing.
16 Q. Okay. Let's move backwards to the prisoner-of-war issue. Now,
17 you told us about the prisoner which you actually captured. I believe you
18 stated the name as Esef Gabeljic, but I may have not listened correctly.
19 Can you tell us again what his name is and perhaps spell it out for the
20 record, letter by letter.
21 A. I think it's E-s-e-f G-a-b-e-l-j-i-c.
22 Q. And I believe you said his age, 45 years old, at that time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you happen to know his father's name?
25 A. No, I don't know it.
1 Q. And his village of birth?
2 A. I think he was from Bratunac -- or at least he worked in Bratunac.
3 I don't know where he was born.
4 Q. Do you know what he worked in Bratunac?
5 A. He told me that he had been an inspector in Bratunac.
6 Q. So you had a chance to talk to him?
7 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
8 Q. And I believe he told you about the masses of Muslims who came
9 into your direction. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you remember what figure he gave to you?
12 A. He told me between 12 and 15.000.
13 Q. Is that one of the reasons why you said that you feared for your
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So you must have been very concerned about this information, were
17 you not?
18 A. Yes, certainly.
19 Q. So did you report it?
20 A. Well, I didn't. That was intelligence information, and almost
21 everybody knew that there were 10.000 people had set out.
22 Q. Well -- but the way you described the location of your battalion
23 and company, you were the advanced company towards Jaglici. Wasn't that
24 correct? Or were there brigade forces who were sort of closer to Jaglici
25 than you were?
1 A. I think the closest unit to Jaglici was the Milici Brigade on the
2 Ravni Buljin elevation. It was some 700 or 820, that elevation, and they
3 were the closest. They were right above Jaglic.
4 Q. But you as the battalion commander, in an area you described as
5 inactive. You never went out of your trenches. You feared for your life?
6 I think your quote was: "I feared we would not survive."
7 You did not feel encouraged to inform your superiors about that?
8 A. Yes, I did inform them, right away on the 12th in the morning. I
9 told the chief of the Zvornik Brigade, Obrenovic. I also informed
10 Bratunac, the duty officer who was on duty then, Eskic I think it was.
11 Q. But that was a different incident. That incident when you
12 informed the Bratunac Brigade and the Zvornik Brigade that dealt with the
13 other prisoner of war you had captured. Isn't that correct?
14 A. No, no. What I said now I was referring to the 12th in the
15 morning. I informed my superiors about the movements of the Muslims and
16 how threatened I was. I thought that was your question.
17 Q. Okay. Let's turn to this second prisoner of war, the one which
18 was eventually killed. Did you also question him or somebody from your
20 A. The other prisoner was Esef, and he was handed over.
21 Q. No. I'm now talking about the prisoner who was eventually killed.
22 Do you remember that you told this Court that there was a prisoner indeed
23 who was killed? Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes, that was the first prisoner.
25 Q. Okay. And you were told that Mr. Vukotic from the Zvornik Brigade
1 would come down to talk to him?
2 A. I wasn't told that, but a message was sent that he would come. I
3 didn't know about this prisoner. The komandir of the 1st Company told the
4 communications man. And they informed the communications man and the
5 komandir of the 1st Company to take the prisoner there and that Vukotic
6 would come. I didn't know about that then; I only learned about it in the
7 evening when I arrived in the command.
8 Q. Now, my question is: Did someone from your unit interview this
9 prisoner very much like you had interviewed the one later? Did you talk
10 to him to get some information out of him?
11 A. I'm not aware of whether the commander of the 1st Company
12 interviewed him or not.
13 Q. Weren't you interested in knowing what prisoner of war could tell
14 you about the situation in the field?
15 A. When I learned about him, he was already dead. He could no longer
16 tell me anything.
17 Q. And again, you don't know whether other people from your unit had
18 questioned him before?
19 A. No, I don't know that.
20 Q. Do you know his name, the name of the prisoner who was eventually
22 A. No. I don't know the name.
23 Q. Was he the only prisoner of war who was killed in your area, or
24 were there others?
25 A. He was the only prisoner who was captured by my unit and who was
1 eventually killed.
2 Q. And you don't know his name?
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Been asked and answered, Your Honour, asked and
4 answered --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: He said he didn't know the name.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, this question has been already asked and
9 MR. WAESPI:
10 Q. Let me show you a document. It's been marked Prosecution Exhibit
11 435. Now, that is a document classified very urgent. And it generates
12 from, as you see on the second page, General Tolimir. Do you know who
13 General Tolimir is?
14 A. I've heard of him, yes.
15 Q. Do you know whether -- at what level he was? Was he at the
16 brigade, corps level, or even above?
17 A. I think above, but I'm not sure.
18 Q. Could it be that he was a part of the Main Staff of the VRS?
19 A. That's possible, yes.
20 Q. Okay. Let me read in the middle of this document. The title is:
21 "Statement by prisoner of war, Izudin Bektic."
22 "Izudin Bektic, a Muslim, born 29 July 1978, in the village of
23 Bektici, in the general area of Suceska in the municipality of Srebrenica,
24 was taken prisoner at about 1800 hours on 12 July this year in the sector
25 of the village of Kajici on the Bratunac/Kravica road."
1 Now, this is the 12th of July, village of Kajici on the
2 Bratunac/Kravica road. Could that be the prisoner who was killed in your
4 A. No.
5 Q. So there was a third prisoner who was captured in your area?
6 A. That is not in my area. I did not have control over the asphalt
8 Q. Yes. That's not exactly what it says. It says: "In the sector
9 of the village of Kajici on the Bratunac/Kravica road."
10 And do you remember when you testified, you also referred to 2 to
11 3 kilometres away from the Bratunac road. So that seems to be a reference
12 point for everybody. So why are you sure that this is not the prisoner
13 who was killed by your troops?
14 A. I know because the prisoner who had been killed by my soldiers was
15 killed near the 651 elevation point, near the minefield.
16 Q. Yes, I understand that. That's not what the document says. The
17 document just says when -- that he was taken prisoner in the sector. It
18 doesn't say where he was killed.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, the gentleman indicated -- was asked a
21 question, where the prisoner was killed. Now the Prosecutor wants to
22 force the answer, that that same prisoner was this individual. I think he
23 got his answer. It's been asked; it's been answered. He needs to move
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I don't want to be specific. I'm just
2 asking him. Because it seems to be a coincidence. If there are two
3 persons, that's fine, but I would like to know more about that.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may move on.
5 MR. WAESPI:
6 Q. Do you remember how old the prisoner was who was killed in your
7 area? Do you remember his age?
8 A. No, I don't know. I don't know that. I was not there. I didn't
9 see him at all.
10 Q. It just surprises me that you as battalion commander having a
11 prisoner of war killed, one, we understand from your testimony that you
12 don't know how old he was. Because this is a very specific prisoner. If
13 you read the second paragraph. Let me read it to you.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, I'm going to object. He hasn't laid the
15 foundation that this is the same prisoner. Whether he's surprised or not
16 surprised is not relevant. He has to lay a foundation that the individual
17 that's reflected in this particular document is the same prisoner. I
18 believe the gentleman has indicated that it is not. Now, if he can lay
19 some foundation, I don't mind. But at this point no foundation has been
20 laid to establish that the same prisoner that was killed and is being
21 referenced to by Mr. Tolimir is the same person.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, there are some problems, Mr. Waespi.
23 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I'm just merely trying to find out
24 whether there is a third prisoner on that day. The coincidence is
25 obvious. And he as a battalion commander in that area should be able to
1 answer whether on the same day, the same evening, the same location there
2 was another prisoner captured, whose information went up to the Main Staff
3 that this person was there. That's what I would like to ask.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may some questions along this line
5 concerning of that particular prisoner of war.
6 MR. WAESPI:
7 Q. So were you aware that there was another prisoner of war captured
8 in that very area, village of Kajici on the Bratunac/Kravica road the same
9 evening, the same day your prisoner of war was killed? Are you aware that
10 there was another prisoner that was captured?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And you also didn't hear that this other prisoner was described by
13 the people who talked to him as of limited intellectual capacity?
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, he's answered the question. Now, we
15 can go through this entire thing, the answers will be no on every single
16 one. Since he wasn't aware, how could he know what's contained in this
17 particular document by the highest intelligence authority of the Main
19 MR. WAESPI: If I may answer, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the Prosecution is just asking whether
21 he heard or not about it. That's a different layer of the question.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. Very well.
23 MR. WAESPI:
24 Q. So have you heard of the capturing of a 16-year-old boy who was of
25 limited intellectual capacity. Have you heard of that?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Very well. Let's move on to another subject now.
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Waespi, I think we need a break at that
5 MR. WAESPI: Yeah, it's a convenient time.
6 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 20 minutes to 1.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi. Please continue.
10 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. I would like briefly to talk upon the 17th and 18th July when you
12 had assembled your I believe you said 20 or so troops for that search
13 operation meeting at Sandici. Do you remember that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And now I believe you said that you boarded a bus near Kasaba and
16 advanced through Konjevic Polje towards Lolici. Is that correct?
17 A. On the way back, yes.
18 Q. Yes. Now, I believe you testified you saw three buses parked. Do
19 you remember that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what was the exact location? Was that in or near the village
22 of Lolici?
23 A. In Lolici, by the asphalt road. If you're looking from
24 Konjevic Polje, there is a small road to the right near the bridge.
25 Q. Now, how many buses did you see? I believe you said three.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And were they filled with people?
3 A. There were people on those buses.
4 Q. And were the buses -- were all the buses full of people?
5 A. I'm not sure about that. All of the seats on my side seemed to be
7 Q. And how big was the bus? How many passengers would it take?
8 About 50?
9 A. Yes, anywhere between 45 and 50 seats.
10 Q. And you say there were people on the bus. Were they Muslims?
11 A. I assume Muslims were inside the bus, the buses.
12 Q. And in what direction were these buses facing?
13 A. They were facing Konjevic Polje.
14 Q. Now, on those days, 17, 18, were you working together with
15 Mico Gavric sweeping the terrain?
16 A. No, I didn't see Mico.
17 Q. But you know him?
18 A. Yes, I know him.
19 Q. When have you seen him -- have you seen him in that time frame?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, let me ask you this: In the period you were on your
22 positions, and I'm talking about the period between 11th of July and the
23 19th of July, you testified that I think the 1st Company observed a couple
24 of hundred Muslims in the area of Jaglici. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, in the morning of the 12th.
1 Q. Yes. And the prisoner you had captured, the prisoner of war
2 whom -- who wasn't killed, who survived luckily, he told you that there
3 were thousands of Muslims progressing in the area. Is that correct?
4 A. He told me that between 12 and 15.000 Muslims had set out.
5 Q. And they passed sort of right beside your positions? Not into
6 your positions, as you understand from you, but right beside your
8 A. Yes. Between my positions and Ravni Buljin.
9 Q. Now, we heard testimony in this courtroom or one of the three
10 courtrooms that hundreds, if not thousands -- hundreds of Muslims were
11 ambushed and killed in those woods and shelled. Have you heard about that
12 as well?
13 A. I have. What I heard was that a large number of people had been
15 Q. But the only contact you had, you maintained, was one of your
16 soldiers was killed, Vukasavljevic, you captured two prisoners of war, and
17 one of them was killed by your troops. That's the only three enemy
18 contacts you had in those days.
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Let me finish with Defence document -- or it's a
21 Prosecution document 483. And you have been shown that by your counsel
22 this morning.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm not his counsel. I'm not his
25 MR. WAESPI: I'm sorry.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
2 MR. WAESPI: I'm sorry.
3 Q. By counsel this morning. And if you could turn to the second
4 page, paragraph 4. And you were asked to comment, I hope that's the right
5 word, to comment on this point. And I believe you were asked how you
6 understood the word of "control" back then in 1995, I take it. And you
7 answered: "I understood it to mean," and then I think you went on to say
8 to observe. Do you remember that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you can only talk about the meaning of this word back then
11 when you have seen, received, this order back then. Is that correct?
12 A. I don't understand your question.
13 Q. Okay. You answered the question about the meaning of the word
14 "control." It says here: "From its positions, the 4th Infantry Battalion
15 will control the area in front of it, spreading from," and so on.
16 Now, you were asked about the meaning of the word "control" the
17 way you understood it back then, in 1995. You remember that, that you
18 were asked to comment about the word "control"?
19 A. Yes. I could control the area visually or with fire, but there
20 was no need to open fire because no one was in the area, at least we
21 didn't see anyone.
22 Q. Yes, I understand that. But the question is: You can only talk
23 about the meaning of that word "control" back then if you had received
24 this order back then. Do you agree with me?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, have you received that order back then? Have you seen it or
2 were you told orally?
3 A. I did not see the order, but it was my standing combat task. I
4 had done that on previous occasions. I had been doing that actually ever
5 since 1993.
6 Q. So you are not really in a position to comment on this order if
7 you haven't seen it. Is that correct?
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, there seems to be somewhat of a leap.
9 He's answered the question.
10 MR. WAESPI: No.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: He's answered the question with respect to control.
12 Now he's being asked whether he can comment on the order.
13 MR. WAESPI: No. That's not what I'm asking him. I asked the
14 witness because he commented on the word of "control" back then, whether
15 he in fact had received or seen the order back then. That's the question,
16 and I would like an answer.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.
18 MR. WAESPI:
19 Q. So have you received this order back then, Mr. Petrovic?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So you can't really make a comment on what's contained in this
23 A. What is contained in this order is what I had been doing ever
24 since the 22nd of September, 1993, having -- controlling the area in front
25 of me.
1 Q. Thank you, Witness.
2 MR. WAESPI: One moment, Mr. President.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. WAESPI:
5 Q. So are you saying that what the order says, the second part:
6 "Spreading from Lupoglav to Ravni Buljin and reaching forward as far as
7 Mratinjsko Brdo and Sandici," are you saying you never implemented that
8 part of the order?
9 A. I have already stated clearly that I had visual control and fire
10 control over the area between Lupoglav and Ravni Buljin. As for
11 Mratinjsko Brdo and Sandici, I never had any control over that area, nor
12 would that have been possible for me from my positions.
13 Q. But two days later you were in Sandici, assembling, together with
14 other forces, to search the terrain. Isn't that a fact?
15 MR. KARNAVAS: That's a separate order, Your Honour. That's a
16 separate order from the 14th.
17 MR. WAESPI: Well, the witness can answer if it's a separate
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it's already in evidence. He talked about
20 the 14th. And then he said on the 17th, he received another order. They
21 are two separate orders, two separate documents. It's plain as day.
22 MR. WAESPI: The witness can answer that.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi, try to establish the link between the
24 two orders.
25 MR. WAESPI: I'm merely asking him whether the witness was in
1 Sandici two days later. That's my question, whether pursuant to this
2 order or the other one, it doesn't matter.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it does matter, it does matter, it does
4 matter, which order we're talking about.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, let's go step by step. Maybe the witness should
6 answer this question first, and later on I believe that you have to
7 establish connections between the two orders.
8 MR. WAESPI:
9 Q. So, Mr. Petrovic, were you in Sandici three or four days after
10 this order was given?
11 A. I was in Sandici either on the 17th or on the 18th around 10.00,
12 together with 19 other soldiers. There were 20 of us all together.
13 Q. Yes. And you were assembled there for a search. Is that correct?
14 A. We assembled there to carry out an order issued by the
15 Bratunac Brigade command, the order which I saw here dated the 18th.
16 Q. And what order are you talking about now when you say "the order
17 here dated the 18th"?
18 A. Well, I was shown at one point this order here, but the order was
19 actually transmitted to me by telephone by my communications man. And I
20 had not seen this order prior to coming here.
21 Q. Okay. So what you were doing 17th, 18th was searching the terrain
22 in the area of Sandici?
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: I have an objection before --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: [Previous translation continues]... Now, the
2 Prosecution keeps saying 17, 18. The gentleman has said 17 or 18. Now,
3 how many times the Prosecutor wants to misstate the fact, the gentleman
4 has said it was the 17 or 18. He doesn't know. I would expect the
5 Prosecutor to be a little fair with the witness. He has never said 17,
6 18, two days rather than one.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, there is some difference. Maybe you could
8 clarify that issue, Mr. Waespi.
9 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I will do that.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, can we ask Mr. Karnavas not to
11 instruct the witness. He keeps giving him instructions in B/C/S which
12 really shouldn't be done.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm asking him to wait.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm looking at the transcript. The witness
15 answered: Either on the 17th or the 18th. At least at this point,
16 Mr. Karnavas just repeated whatever the witness said.
17 MR. WAESPI: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
19 Any re-direct?
20 MR. KARNAVAS: I just have a few questions, Your Honour.
21 Re-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
22 Q. First of all, just to pick up where we left off, how many days
23 were you searching the terrain, one or two days?
24 A. One day.
25 Q. Right. Now, going back, I'm going to just hit the points real
1 quickly. Going back to the article in the "Drinski," March 1995: "Where
2 Radika's Army Goes ..."
3 Now, you were asked to look at the last statement there -- the
4 last sentence in that article. Is there anything -- if you could look
5 at --
6 MR. KARNAVAS: If you could give it to the gentleman, and I'm
7 referring to D137.
8 Q. In that last sentence, is there anything about expelling the
9 Muslims from Srebrenica?
10 A. No.
11 Q. All right. Anything about ethnic cleansing in Srebrenica?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. Now -- next, you were asked about --
14 MR. KARNAVAS: That will be fine.
15 Q. You were asked about Kravica. And in fact, in the article itself
16 there is a reference to Kravica in -- of March 13th, 1993. Do you recall
17 what happened to the Serbs in Kravica in I believe it was the New Year's,
18 that would be January 7th, 1993, in Kravica?
19 A. That was the date, yes. That was Christmas.
20 Q. All right. Now -- Christmas. I apologise. Now, do you recall
21 what happened there in that area?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you please just describe to us what happened that might have
24 required the assistance of Serb soldiers to go there?
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
1 MR. WAESPI: Could we have a foundation. If the witness heard
2 from other people about these stories, that I suggest not appropriate,
3 certainly not in the re-direct. If he was present there, then it may be
4 different, although I doubt the relevancy of 1993.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we also have some problems about the relevancy of
6 that issue in 1993.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, because there were some questions,
8 Your Honour -- this is re-direct. So on cross-examination there was a
9 reference with respect to 13 March 1993. Now, we've heard already
10 testimony what happened to the Serbs in Kravica that particular area in
11 January 7th, which is their new year's in 1993. So the question that I'm
12 trying to pose to the gentleman is if he knows what happened, so at least
13 it would put context as to why perhaps that area might have requested some
14 assistance, be it from his battalion or any other battalion. So I think
15 it puts the matter into context.
16 JUDGE LIU: Not at all, if something happened in 1993.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if that were the case, then why would
18 I object on cross-examination, I'm denied that opportunity and my
19 objection is not sustained. If the Prosecution is allowed to get evidence
20 regarding that incident, then I am perfectly capable and I should be
21 perfectly entitled to put the matter into context in order to -- for
22 fairness, that's why. Now, if the Court thought it was irrelevant and
23 when I do object and when I did say they should not be asking any
24 questions with respect to this particular article, the Trial Chamber said
25 that no, he would be allowed to be questioned on this. So I think as a
1 matter of fairness and context and balance, I should be allowed to ask
2 that question. Because it puts into question whether this man here was
3 responsible for that area as part of this zone of responsibility.
4 Furthermore, Your Honour, if we look at the Butler report, it
5 cites this particular article itself as some sort of proof in one of the
6 footnotes, footnote number 303, "Where Radika's army goes..." as a basis
7 of establishing that that area was part of the zone of responsibility of
8 the 4th Battalion --
9 MR. WAESPI: It's inappropriate to offer your case with the
10 witness here.
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you may ask a question to this
12 witness on that incident, but try to limit your scope because we're only
13 concerned about the incidents that happened in 1995.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: I will, Your Honour.
15 Q. In January of 1993, what happened in Kravica, sir?
16 A. The entire Serbian population was expelled. A large number of
17 soldiers and civilians were killed. Even the wounded who were in the
18 Kravica health centre were killed. Everything was burnt down, all the
19 houses, the pigsties, the barns. I have never seen a village so
20 thoroughly burnt down as Kravica was.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
22 MR. WAESPI: Just to remind you of the objection I have. Apart
23 from relevancy, it's the foundation; whether he was present and can
24 testify as to that, or whether it's just mere hearsay.
25 JUDGE LIU: I believe Mr. Karnavas will ask this question.
1 MR. KARNAVAS:
2 Q. Sir, with respect to Kravica, how is it that you are aware of all
3 these atrocities that were committed by the Muslims on the Serbs in that
4 area at that period of time, a matter which --
5 A. I learned about it from the surviving Serbs from Kravica who fled
6 to my village. They were women and children. I learned it from them on
7 the day that it happened.
8 Q. And do you know whose unit was involved in that from the Muslim
10 A. The 28th Division, led my Naser Oric and Zulfo.
11 Q. And did you know that he was a resident of the UN Detention Centre
12 here and is awaiting trial here?
13 JUDGE LIU: Is that a relevant question?
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, that was in response to the objection,
15 Your Honour. The whole world knows what happened in January 1993, and it
16 would be ridiculous to assume or to suggest that a gentleman who was in
17 the vicinity would not know that this happened. So I was trying to make a
19 JUDGE LIU: No, we are not talking about what was happening there;
20 we are talking about Mr. Naser Oric.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: The fact that this -- the fact that Naser Oric is a
22 resident of the UN Detention Centre, compliments of the Office of the
23 Prosecution, everybody knows; that's what I'm trying to establish,
24 Your Honour, that they already know the foundation.
25 JUDGE LIU: I hope you drop this question.
1 MR. KARNAVAS:
2 Q. Now -- sir, I have one last question to ask you. In the middle of
3 your testimony -- or in the middle of your questioning by the Prosecution,
4 Mr. McCloskey switched you from a witness to a suspect. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you understand that you are still designated under that
7 status. Correct?
8 A. Yes. He never changed that.
9 Q. And you came to testify here anyway on behalf of the Defence, in
10 spite of that status?
11 A. Yes. I care about the truth.
12 Q. Do you know Mr. Blagojevic?
13 A. Yes. I saw him when he took over the brigade. He passed by my
14 line, and I also saw him on the 3rd of July, 1995, when I was submitting
15 my report.
16 Q. Other than --
17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, this set of questions should be asked
18 during your direct examination.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: That was my --
20 JUDGE LIU: I think it's out of the scope of the re-direct. The
21 re-direct should be strictly within the scope of the questions asked in
22 the cross-examination.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: I --
24 JUDGE LIU: We should not go around and around.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I totally agree.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: That was my --
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: We are in total agreement. That was my last
5 question. That was sort of a rebuttal to the perception that he might
6 have come here to fabricate something as a result of a relationship with
7 Mr. Blagojevic. That was the only thing I was trying to cover, but I have
8 no further questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 Well, at this stage are there any documents to tender?
11 Mr. Karnavas?
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President. D135, which is the daily
13 combat report; D136, which is the certificate, the death certificate of
14 the soldier who had been killed; D137, which is the famous newspaper
15 article that's referenced in the Butler report as a basis of the area of
16 responsibility for the 4th Battalion; D138, which is the map, a copy of
17 that -- portion of that map that Mr. Petrovic marked; D139, which is the
18 roster of the 8th Infantry Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade, it's undated
19 but it says "July," but nonetheless it notes that Mr. Petrovic was a
20 member of the Zvornik Brigade; D140, which is the Zvornik command order of
21 15/1/1994, which was introduced to establish that even though they had
22 been attached to the Bratunac Brigade they were receiving orders from the
23 Zvornik Brigade. And that's it, Your Honour. And I'm told that for the
24 last document, D140, the translation will be completed in a couple of
25 days. So if there are objections from the Prosecution, we can withhold
1 introducing that until the translation has been completed.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas. Can you tell us the sources
3 of these documents.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: The OTP.
5 JUDGE LIU: All OTP documents?
6 MR. KARNAVAS: It's right from their computer warehouse.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
8 Any objections, Mr. Waespi?
9 MR. WAESPI: No. In fact, I'm glad if the source is the
10 Prosecution, that this is enough foundation to have it admitted into
11 evidence. I think that's great news. I'm sorry, Mr. President.
12 Apart from that, we don't have an objection to these documents and
13 we don't have any documents to tender from us.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And how about the last document, D140. I
15 understand there is no translation at this stage.
16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, we would like to see a translation before it's
17 tendered -- are you asking whether we have a translation?
18 JUDGE LIU: No. I'm just asking about your attitude towards the
19 adoption of this document.
20 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I don't think we should admit it without an
21 English translation. We should wait until we have seen one.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I think all those documents are admitted
23 into the evidence, except the last one, that is D140. I believe that
24 within a time frame of a week we will be furnished with the translation of
25 this document, and then we'll consider the admission of that document into
1 the evidence. It is so decided.
2 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give
3 your evidence. The usher will show you out of the room, and we wish you a
4 pleasant journey back home. You may go now.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, could you please inform us how
8 many witnesses are left on the list for this week.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, we have three for the week, and I believe we
10 can -- assuming that we will be going this afternoon for one session, I
11 believe we can handle two today and then we'll have a full day for
12 tomorrow for the last witness.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well --
14 MR. KARNAVAS: They're short. Today's are short, especially one
15 of them is just rather short. But I think we can accomplish that, if the
16 Court desires. If not -- because I'm getting somewhat -- some mixed
17 signals whether I'm going too fast or too slow, so I'm trying to find
18 the right pace.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm surprised to hear that you got mixed
20 signals --
21 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm perceiving it that way perhaps. I'm on the
22 receiving end.
23 JUDGE LIU: I think several times we expressed the view that we
24 proceed too slowly, at least for this week's witnesses. And I reminded
25 you that we are already five sittings behind our original schedule.
1 Would you please tell us, are there any protective measures for
2 the next witness?
3 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE LIU: We'll wait for the usher to come in to bring the
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.
7 JUDGE LIU: And by the way, this afternoon we'll resume the
8 sitting in Courtroom II at 3.00 -- Courtroom -- 3.00 in Courtroom II. I'm
9 sorry. It's too late.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. How far do I get to go right now?
11 JUDGE LIU: We have 30 minutes left.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Thank you.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
16 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
17 accordance with the paper that the usher is showing to you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: ZORAN CVJETINOVIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
23 Mr. Karnavas, your witness.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
25 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:
1 Q. Good morning, sir --
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. Excuse me, Mr. Karnavas. I've been
3 getting quite a bit of static, and I think it's giving me a headache, Your
4 Honour. Is there any way that audiovisual... ? Because Mr. Shin is
5 getting static as well, as are the interpreters, and I think it's hurting
6 our ability to hear things and understand them.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could ask the Court Deputy to check
8 with it.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not hearing any voices, so I'm okay on this
10 side so far.
11 JUDGE LIU: Neither am I.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm getting a fair amount of static, and so are
13 the interpreters who really are the ones that -- I mean, I'm not doing the
14 work here, but the interpreters are hearing the same static I am. And
15 it's been going on and off all morning, and I think it's having an effect
16 on least me and the interpreters. Sorry. I mean, I think we can go on
17 without it. But if audiovisual could tell us if they know there's a
18 problem, or something. I'm sorry for the delay.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, do you agree that we proceed
21 while at the same time the technicians come down to check? Because at
22 least in their booth there is no problem.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think the best people to ask is the
24 interpreters, because I think over time that it may actually affect their
25 ability. They're signalling me, and they don't whine at all, the
1 interpreters, as you know. So I think it's something that must be -- must
2 have some effect. But they're the best people to answer that question.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
4 Can I take the views from the interpreters. Thank you very much
5 for your cooperation. We'll proceed and we only have 25 minutes for the
6 morning session.
7 You may proceed.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President. I'll try to be
9 clear and concise.
10 Q. Sir, could you please tell us what your name is.
11 A. Zoran Cvjetinovic.
12 Q. Would you please tell us your last name letter by letter.
13 A. C-v-j-e-t-i-n-o-v-i-c.
14 Q. Mr. Cvjetinovic, where are you from?
15 A. I'm from Bratunac.
16 Q. Where do you currently live?
17 A. In Zuti Most.
18 Q. That's by Potocari, is it not?
19 A. Before Potocari.
20 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us what your educational
21 background is.
22 A. I am a catering employee in Srebrenica, in the Pivnica
24 Q. All right. Did you do your military service with the JNA?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. Now, what year was that?
2 A. 1983.
3 Q. And what sort of training did you receive in 1983?
4 A. I was a cook. I was the cook, the quartermaster.
5 Q. All right. Now, between 1983 and when the war broke out in 1992,
6 were you a reservist?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. And what position did you hold as a reservist?
9 A. I was a cook.
10 Q. Now, in -- were you ever mobilised during the war?
11 A. Yes, I was.
12 Q. When were you mobilised?
13 A. On the 10th of April, 1992.
14 Q. And when you were mobilised, what position did you hold then?
15 A. I was a soldier, a private.
16 Q. And where, what location?
17 A. Zuti Most.
18 Q. Was that part of a brigade or was that part of the Territorial
20 A. Territorial Defence.
21 Q. Were you part of a particular company in the Territorial Defence?
22 A. No, I wasn't.
23 Q. Now, when the Territorial Defence in the Bratunac area was
24 transformed into the Bratunac Brigade, did you remain in that area?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And were you a member of the Bratunac Brigade?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Could you please tell us what positions you held in
4 the Bratunac Brigade, and please just list them.
5 A. I was a private. Later, I was the deputy company komandir.
6 Q. Now, which company are we talking about?
7 A. The 2nd Infantry Company of the 2nd Battalion.
8 Q. All right. Now, who was the commander of that or komandir of that
10 A. It was Slobodan Ostojic.
11 Q. How many men did that company have?
12 A. In 76.
13 Q. So there was 76 men in the entire company?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, could you please tell us where was the 2nd Company of the
16 2nd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade located.
17 A. From Zuti Most towards Zagoni.
18 Q. Now, help us out here. Zuti Most is that yellow bridge between
19 Bratunac and Potocari. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, if we were heading in the direction towards Potocari or
22 towards Srebrenica, on which side of the road would you be of the yellow
23 bridge, the right side or the left side?
24 A. On the right side.
25 Q. And how far from the asphalt road would your company begin?
1 A. About a kilometre and a half.
2 Q. And how far would it go from that point?
3 A. I didn't understand your question.
4 Q. Okay. From the road, from the yellow bridge there, where would
5 the company begin?
6 A. Zuti Most, and to the right towards Zagoni.
7 Q. So would your company be stationed right by the asphalt road
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, how long was the 2nd Company of the 2nd Battalion of the
11 Bratunac Brigade located at that position?
12 A. From 1992 to 1995.
13 Q. Had you ever been asked to relocate in 1995, and in particular,
14 say, around the month of July?
15 A. No.
16 Q. All right. Now, I want to focus your attention to July 1995, and
17 in particular I want to focus your attention to the period of time when
18 Srebrenica was attacked, and that would be, as a point of reference, July
19 6th, keeping in mind that it was July 11th when Srebrenica fell. So could
20 you please tell us where you were located, you personally, on July 6th,
21 1995, the day that Srebrenica was attacked.
22 A. I was located from Zuti Most toward Zagoni.
23 Q. And how close were enemy troops from your position?
24 A. It was about 3 kilometres away that they were.
25 Q. Is that flat line -- flat land?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Now, were the DutchBat located anywhere near you?
3 A. Yes, at Potocari.
4 Q. From your location to Potocari, what is the distance?
5 A. 3 to 3 and a half kilometres.
6 Q. Now, when we're speaking about Potocari, are you referring to the
7 village Potocari or the area of Potocari?
8 A. The area of Potocari.
9 Q. For those of us who are not familiar or don't know the area, where
10 does this area of Potocari begin and end? Where do the local inhabitants
11 consider the area of Potocari?
12 A. From the factory, generators factory, to the place called
13 Kapetanova Cuprija.
14 Q. Now, from the Zuti Most the first thing that you would come across
15 would be the factories, if you were heading towards Srebrenica?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, from the factories onwards to the other location that you
18 indicated, Kapetanova, what is the distance heading towards Srebrenica?
19 A. 3 kilometres, approximately.
20 Q. Okay. All right. Now, from your location, how far away again
21 were the DutchBat?
22 A. Between 3 and 3 and a half kilometres.
23 Q. Were they anywhere near the asphalt road, your base?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Now, what, if any, orders did you receive prior to July
1 16th concerning the attack on Srebrenica?
2 A. Yes. On the 12th of July, I received a message from the
3 communications man to move to the area of -- from the area of Potocari to
4 Budak and Pale.
5 Q. All right. Before we get to July 12th, as I indicated, July 6th
6 was the day when Srebrenica was attacked. So on that day did you receive
7 any orders to advance or to engage, to attack, the enemy?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you asked to relocate your men in any way?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What about July 7th?
12 A. No.
13 Q. What about July 8th?
14 A. No.
15 Q. What about July 9th?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What about July 10th?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What about July 11th?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you have any artillery units with you or hardware so from your
22 position you could be attacking Srebrenica, the enclave, or Potocari where
23 the DutchBat were located?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know whether you had -- you or your men had fired at any
1 incoming enemy soldiers during that period, and I'm referring to the 6th,
2 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th of July, 1995?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, Srebrenica fell on July 1995. On that particular day, did
5 you, sir, move your troops to any other position, that day, July 11th?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you ever given any orders to move your troops on that day?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Could you please tell us when was it the first time that you
10 learned that Srebrenica had fallen.
11 A. On the 12th of July at around 8.00.
12 Q. Now, on the 12th of July, did you receive any orders?
13 A. No. I only received a message conveyed by the communications man
14 that I should assemble the unit at Zuti Most and start moving towards
16 Q. All right. But that message, the way it was conveyed to you, and
17 the manner in which you are describing to us today, it would appear that
18 it is some sort of an order, for you to leave your positions that you
19 maintained for three years and now relocate to another position.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Shin.
21 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, Mr. Karnavas is leading the witness on
22 that question.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Not at all, Your Honour, not at all. I'm trying to
24 clarify whether the message was an order or not.
25 JUDGE LIU: You just ask a simple question whether it's an order
1 or not.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: That is all, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE LIU: But your question constitutes about three or four
4 lines, and I guess there's some answers in your question.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well -- very well, Your Honour.
6 Q. Was that an order or just a message?
7 A. Well, it's the -- it was the communications man who told me that
8 he had been told to tell me to pull out the units towards Zuti Most.
9 Q. All right. Did the -- this individual ever tell you who told him
10 to tell you to move away from Zuti Most?
11 A. No.
12 Q. All right. Now, did you do that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Incidentally, could you tell us what sort of communication means
15 were available to you or to the 2nd Company of the 2nd Battalion of the
16 Bratunac Brigade back then in July 1995.
17 A. Up until July 1995, we had communications with RUP -- with field
18 telephones. And after that --
19 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we did not understand the last
20 sentence that the witness said.
21 MR. KARNAVAS:
22 Q. Could you please repeat the last part of your sentence. You need
23 to speak up a little bit.
24 A. We had a courier who could convey messages to me.
25 Q. All right. Now, the location where you were being asked to go to
1 to take your company and move to, would that take you through Potocari as
2 you have described it, that area?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Where would you go or how would you get to the area that you were
5 told to move to?
6 A. By the asphalt road toward Srebrenica. Before the centre of
7 Potocari, I would have to turn right.
8 Q. And where would that take you?
9 A. Well, that would take me to Budak.
10 Q. All right. Now, from that location where you turn off the asphalt
11 road on the right that takes you to Budak, from that location to where the
12 factories are in Potocari, what is the distance?
13 A. What factory?
14 Q. The factories -- the industrial compound there in Potocari, the
15 one that you described to us earlier.
16 A. Some 50 metres before that.
17 Q. All right. Now, when you -- did you -- could you please tell us
18 about what time of day you and your men set off in the direction of Budak.
19 A. Between 10.00 and 10.30.
20 Q. Now, when you got to the -- that spot where you have to turn off
21 the asphalt road and head towards Budak, did you notice anything unusual
22 in the area of Potocari?
23 A. Yes. In the industrial area I noticed a large group of civilians.
24 Q. Did you notice whether there were any buses or trucks there at
25 that time?
1 A. When I got to Budak, I noticed trucks and buses.
2 Q. All right. Incidentally, from the turn to Budak, what is the
4 A. 300 to 400 metres.
5 Q. Okay. Now, did you by any chance go into Potocari on the morning
6 of the 12th when you were on your way to Budak?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you receive any orders from your commander or your komandir or
9 the komandant of the battalion to go into Potocari?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, since you noticed that there was a large gathering of people
12 there as you turned off the road to go to Budak, would you please explain
13 to us how is it that you didn't even take the extra 50 steps or
14 what-have-you to go to Potocari to see what was happening over there?
15 A. I did not want to meet with my neighbours, the people with whom I
16 had worked before the outbreak of the war.
17 Q. And why is that?
18 A. Because I had spent a long time working with them. A lot of
19 people knew me.
20 Q. Why not just go there and to just greet them, see how they were
21 doing? Weren't you curious?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did any of your men ask you permission to go and see if they could
24 take a look, what's going on there with all those people, see whether they
25 could see any friends or relatives, what-have-you, neighbours?
1 A. No, no one asked me anything.
2 Q. All right. Now, from Budak, where did you and your men go?
3 A. We left for Pale, in the direction of Pale.
4 Q. And that's the village of Pale?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What is the distance from Budak to Pale?
7 A. 5 kilometres, approximately.
8 Q. Okay. And I take it after the break we'll pick up and see what
9 happened after you got to Pale.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's time for the break. And we'll resume at
11 3.00 in Courtroom II.
12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.46 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 3.07 p.m.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas. Please continue.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good
16 afternoon, everyone.
17 Q. Sir, we left off when you were describing to us the events of July
18 12th, where you were given -- where you were given a message that you and
19 your troops had to move to another location. First of all, I would like
20 to clarify, what were you supposed to do in moving from the location where
21 you had been for the past three years to this new location?
22 A. Search the terrain.
23 Q. All right. Now, do you recall whether your komandir was with you,
24 since you were the deputy?
25 A. No.
1 Q. All right. Do you know who was leading the men, who was up front?
2 A. Zoran Ostojic.
3 Q. Where were you in the -- where were you in this group?
4 A. With the troops.
5 Q. Okay. But were you up front? Were you in the middle? Were you
6 in the back? Where exactly were you?
7 A. Behind.
8 Q. All right. Now, you said that you were supposed to search the
9 terrain. Could you please describe to us how you searched the terrain, in
10 what fashion.
11 A. We set off from Potocari in the direction of Budak, walking in a
12 column one by one.
13 Q. All right. So from Potocari to Budak you searched the terrain by
14 walking in a column. Is that it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You didn't spread out?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Had you ever done searching of the terrain before?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did anyone give you any specific instructions as to how to search
21 the terrain?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. Now, when you got to Budak, from there you indicated
24 that you went another 4 or 5 kilometres. What was the next destination?
25 A. Pale. We were supposed to reach the village of Pale.
1 Q. How did you search the terrain from Budak to Pale?
2 A. The same, walking in single file.
3 Q. Would it be correct in characterising that as marching in a
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you and the men spread out as you went through the territory
7 from Budak to Pale?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now, when you -- from the time that you left where you had been
10 for three years to the -- to the place that you ultimately ended up, in
11 Pale, could you please tell us how many prisoners did you come across?
12 A. Not a single one.
13 Q. All right. Did you see any dead bodies on the way from the
14 location you had left to Pale, as you marched in that single file?
15 A. No.
16 Q. All right. When you got to Pale, do you know -- did you know back
17 then whether all of your men had followed you to Pale or had any
18 been -- gone missing?
19 A. No. They were all there.
20 Q. All right. When you got to Budak, how long did you stay in Budak?
21 A. We just went through Budak and continued immediately towards Pale.
22 Q. All right. How long did you stay in Pale?
23 A. We spent the night there, and then left for Jaglici.
24 Q. Okay. Now, what were you supposed to do between Pale and Jaglici?
25 A. We spent the night there and waited for the 1st Company to arrive.
1 Q. All right. But my question is: From Budak to Jaglici, did you
2 have a particular mission or were you just supposed to make your way to
4 A. We didn't have any particular mission, just to get to Jaglici.
5 Q. From Pale to Jaglici, what's the distance?
6 A. 2 kilometres approximately.
7 Q. How long did it take you to get there?
8 A. An hour, an hour and a half.
9 Q. All right. Now, do you recall what time you set off from Pale and
10 what time you arrived in Jaglici?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Was it morning? Noon? Afternoon? Night?
13 A. Afternoon.
14 Q. When you got to Jaglici, what did you do?
15 A. We took up quarters there and spent the night there, in Jaglici.
16 Q. From Pale to Jaglici, did you come across any prisoners?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you notice whether there were any bodies, dead bodies?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you come across any abandoned weapons?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right. Now, you said you spent the night there. From there,
23 where did you go?
24 A. We went to Bacuta, located just above Gornji Potocari.
25 Q. What's the distance between Jaglici to this new location?
1 A. 3 to 4 kilometres.
2 Q. What's the terrain like?
3 A. It's a hilly area.
4 Q. How long did it take you to get there?
5 A. It took us quite a while, because there were some elderly and
6 disabled soldiers in the unit. Some of the men suffered from some
7 pulmonary disease.
8 Q. All right. Now, what were you supposed -- were you supposed to
9 just get there, or did you have some other task such as searching the
11 A. Well, to search the terrain. We stayed there two days.
12 Q. All right. Well, could you please describe to us how it was that
13 you searched the terrain.
14 A. The same as we did before, from Potocari, Budak, and Pale, by
15 walking in a single file.
16 Q. All right. Now, from there what did you do?
17 A. We spent the night there and then went back along the same route
18 to the yellow bridge, the Zuti Most area.
19 Q. All right. So what day would you have returned back to the yellow
21 A. I think on the 19th of July, 1995.
22 Q. During that period of time when you were out there searching the
23 terrain, as you described it, did you come across any Muslims that you
24 took prisoners -- took as prisoners?
25 A. No.
1 Q. When you returned to the Zuti Most, the yellow bridge, what were
2 your next orders?
3 A. We spent two days resting. And after that, we set off for Zepa.
4 Q. Thank you very much.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
7 Any cross? Yes, Mr. Shin.
8 MR. SHIN: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
9 If I could please have the podium from counsel. Thank you. I'll
10 do my best not to break this one.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Shin:
12 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. I'd like to begin by just clarifying one point. You
15 mentioned -- you mentioned a name, Zoran Ostojic. Now, you said that you
16 were the deputy company commander. Who was the company commander?
17 A. Slobodan Ostojic.
18 Q. That's a different person from the Zoran Ostojic you mentioned
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, when you were walking towards Potocari that first time, from
22 your position around Zuti Most, where was the company commander?
23 A. He was at Pjenovac.
24 Q. When did he go to Pjenovac?
25 A. On the 3rd of July.
1 Q. And when, if ever, did he return from Pjenovac?
2 A. He returned on the 18th of July.
3 Q. Now, between the 3rd of July and the 18th of July, as the deputy
4 company commander, you were, in effect, the company commander, were you
6 A. No. Zoran Ostojic was. He was filling in for the company
8 Q. Do you know who Zoran Jovanovic is?
9 A. I do. He's the deputy commander of the 2nd Infantry Battalion.
10 Q. And Goran Stakic?
11 A. The battalion commander.
12 Q. Now, Goran Stakic has told the Office of the Prosecutor that in
13 the absence of Slobodan Ostojic, you were the company commander. Do you
14 have anything to say about that?
15 A. No. I was only deputy commander, and it was Zoran Ostojic who was
16 replacing Slobodan Ostojic.
17 Q. Did you ever tell Defence counsel that you were the company
18 commander during the period from July -- let's say July 12th through the
20 A. No.
21 Q. You were asked by counsel this morning whether on the 12th of July
22 you had gone in the morning to Potocari. You said no, and you explained
23 your reasons why. Did you go to Potocari in the afternoon of the 12th?
24 A. No. We turned off from the road to Potocari. We went to Budak.
25 We turned before the centre of Potocari, and the actual town of Potocari
1 begins where the factory -- the generators factory is, that is the central
2 area of Potocari. Whereas, the industrial area is a bit further.
3 Q. If I could just clarify that. You explained this morning or
4 earlier this afternoon, rather, that you turned off about 50 metres before
5 the generators factory. Did I understand that correctly?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you were walking at the rear of this column. Is that
9 A. Next to the column.
10 Q. I believe you had said earlier you were walking at the rear of the
11 column -- in fact, I'm sure you have. Could you just clarify that for us.
12 Are you saying you were not, as you said earlier, walking at the rear, but
13 you were in fact walking at the side of the column?
14 A. On the side of the column in the back, in the rear, of the column.
15 Q. So would it be right to say that there were 76 men in front of
17 A. No, not all of them.
18 Q. How many were in front of you? How many were in the column?
19 A. Well, all of them were in the column, and about 50 of them were
20 ahead of me.
21 Q. So where were the other 26 or so men?
22 A. Behind me.
23 Q. Okay. Now, you turned off the road towards Budak, which is before
24 the generator factory. Were there any of the men in front of you who
25 continued going straight?
1 A. No. They all turned off the road. They took the right turn
2 towards Budak.
3 Q. Now, what about the men behind you, the 25 or 26 men behind you?
4 Did they turn as well also toward Budak?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Once you had made the turn-off towards Budak, did you at any point
7 turn back towards Potocari on that day?
8 A. No, until I reached Budak.
9 Q. Okay. My question was: On that day, after you reached Budak, did
10 you turn back to Potocari?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did any of your men turn back to Potocari or did they also
13 continue walking?
14 A. I didn't notice.
15 Q. You were a deputy company commander, as you explained, and you
16 were walking near the end of this column and you didn't notice if any of
17 your men turned back towards Potocari?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You explained that your task was searching the terrain, and you
20 explained a little bit about what that entailed. In carrying out this
21 task, you never noticed that some of your men might have gone back to
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ever find out that any of your men had been in Potocari on
25 the 12th of July?
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Would it surprise you if some of your men had been in Potocari on
3 the 12th of July?
4 A. Well, it wouldn't because I didn't notice. Maybe some of them did
5 go back, but I never noticed that.
6 Q. Okay. I'd like to show you a photograph.
7 MR. SHIN: And just for the record, Your Honours, this is part of
8 a document that's been admitted into evidence as Prosecutor's Exhibit
9 number 22, chapter 12, and it's the first page there. And I just note for
10 the record also there is some writing below that photograph which has been
11 covered so the writing cannot be seen.
12 Q. Mr. Cvjetinovic, could you please take a look at the photograph
13 that's been placed on the machine next to you -- or, I'm sorry. I
14 understand you can see it on your screen as well, so perhaps that easier.
15 Do you recognise that man on the left, the first man on the left,
16 in fact the man with the number 1 in a box over him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who is he?
19 A. Brano Ilic.
20 Q. What's -- he's a soldier. Right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He's with your company, isn't he?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you see the next man over, the person with the number 2 over
25 him? Do you recognise that man?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. He's also a member of your company, isn't he?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, the man standing between let's say the man with the number 2
5 and the number with the number 3, do you know who that is?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who is that?
8 A. Miladin Radic.
9 Q. What about the next man over, the man with the number 3?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And who is that?
12 A. Miladin Vuksic.
13 Q. And he's also a member of your company, isn't he?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, do you recognise where this was taken, this photograph -- I'm
16 sorry, this particular still?
17 A. Yes. This was taken before the turning toward Budak.
18 Q. Are you sure about that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In that area, were there any -- as you were walking down, did you
21 see buses parked along that way, before the turn-off to Budak?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And how many buses were there?
24 A. I didn't count. I wasn't interested. I didn't count.
25 Q. I'd like to show you -- perhaps if I could just ask you first. Is
1 this the formation that you were walking along when you went from
2 Potocari -- I'm sorry, when you went from Zuti Most along the road towards
3 Potocari and Budak?
4 A. No. This is when we were turning off there.
5 Q. But this was the formation you were walking in. Is that right?
6 A. Yes, one behind the other.
7 Q. Where were you in this formation, as far as you can recall?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. Do you remember if you were behind or in front of these men?
10 A. In front of them.
11 Q. I'd like to show you a brief video clip now.
12 MR. SHIN: Just one moment, please, Your Honours.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. SHIN:
15 Q. Do you recall seeing that scene?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, you mentioned that there were -- as you saw, there were buses
18 on that video clip. Are you aware that there's been evidence here that
19 those buses were across from the factory; in other words, they were in the
20 factory zone of Potocari, and not as you say 50 metres before the turn-off
21 to Budak?
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to lodge an objection here.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: There's no evidence that those particular
25 buses -- we can see a long column of buses. So if he can establish where
1 on the record those particular buses were in front of what particular
2 area. I would like to know where in the record. Because we know that
3 there is a long column of buses, and I think the clip is pretty clear on
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the Prosecutor is just trying to
6 establish that, because he asked a question to that direction.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it's more than -- it's -- Mr. President, it's
8 more than just a question. He's stating it as a fact, that those buses,
9 the ones that we just saw, were in front of the factory. We don't dispute
10 that there were buses all along that area, but whether those particular
11 buses where his men were situated were in front of the factory, there I
12 take exception to, unless he can establish. Because now, you know, he's
13 trying to state a fact that is not in evidence.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, I fail to see your point.
15 You may proceed.
16 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. I'll just repeat the question for you, Mr. Cvjetinovic.
18 Are you aware that there's been evidence here that those buses
19 were across the factory, that they were in the factory zone of Potocari,
20 and not as you say 50 metres before the turn-off to Budak?
21 A. They were about 50 kilometres -- metres before the turn-off to
23 Q. Now, you identified Mr. Brano Ilic on that photograph. How long
24 have you known him?
25 A. Not long. He was in my unit for a few months; he was on sick
1 leave. I don't know where he was before that.
2 Q. Now, he's told the Office of the Prosecutor that he went into
3 Potocari, into the factory zone and was in fact across from, I believe,
4 the -- something called the Elektroprivreda. My apologies if I've gotten
5 that incorrect.
6 A. He may have gone there, but I didn't see him.
7 Q. You've also identified on that video clip, I believe, a
8 Mr. Miladin Radic. Is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. He's also told the Office of the Prosecutor that he was in the
11 factory zone in Potocari on that day and across from the -- from this
12 electric generator plant; I'll just do that in English, perhaps, to be
13 sure I've gotten that right. Do you have anything to say about that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know whether he was in there? Did he ever tell you? Did
16 anyone else ever tell you?
17 A. No, he didn't tell me anything.
18 Q. Did you ever tell counsel for the Defence here that you were in
20 A. Not in the industrial zone.
21 Q. You at the beginning of your testimony defined the area of
22 Potocari as extending up to the edge of that industrial zone; in other
23 words, somewhere before -- somewhere after the turn-off to Budak.
24 A. Down towards Bratunac for about a kilometre.
25 Q. Let me make this simple. Did you tell Defence counsel that you
1 were in Potocari on the 12th of July?
2 A. Not in the industrial zone. Potocari extends from the edge of the
3 generator factory.
4 MR. SHIN: Just for the record, Mr. President, the video clip was
5 Prosecution Exhibit 93.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
7 MR. SHIN:
8 Q. I'd like you -- I'd like to just play that video clip again, just
9 the beginning of it. If you could watch very closely and listen to what
10 the people are saying. It's a short clip anyway, but I will indicate when
11 we can stop.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. SHIN: If we could back up just a little, please. Oh, we
14 can't. Sorry.
15 Q. In that case, that last man who was seen before this present
16 frame, and if we turn back to the photographs -- I'm sorry. This is
17 chapter 12, page 1. Yes, that's correct.
18 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. Usher.
19 Q. Now, you heard -- did you hear -- I'm sorry, did you hear on the
20 videotape the words to the effect: "Don't film too much"? In fact, in
21 English, I believe it's exactly: "Come on, man. Don't film too much."
22 Did you hear that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. In that case, could we please play the video clip over again.
25 It's only a few seconds, from the beginning. And if you could pay
1 attention to see whether you believe any of the people on the video are
2 saying that.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, is he trying to establish that those
4 were his men that are stating that or whether he just -- this is being
5 said by some soldiers that were there at the time? What is the relevancy
6 to the Bratunac Brigade? If he can connect it that it was his men stating
7 that, fine. The fact that it's on the video itself, whether he can hear
8 it or not, is irrelevant.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think that's the point. We'll see whether,
10 you know, those soldiers said those words or not.
11 MR. SHIN: Indeed, Mr. President. We're hoping that the witness
12 would be able to help us in this regard.
13 I'm sorry to ask again if we could play that again, as perhaps we
14 weren't able to hear.
15 Q. But if you could please, Mr. Cvjetinovic, watch the video
16 carefully, listen carefully, and see if you come to a view as to who is
17 saying that phrase: "Don't film too much."
18 [Videotape played]
19 MR. SHIN:
20 Q. I'm sorry. Proceed, please.
21 A. Somebody did say that, but I couldn't gather who it was.
22 Q. Okay. Whoever it was who said it, is there any reason why you
23 think they might say that?
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, it calls for speculation. Now this is
25 totally ridiculous.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's speculation, Mr. Shin.
2 MR. SHIN: Okay. Then I'll move on, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Cvjetinovic, if we could turn back to your tasks as you
4 described them on the 12th and 13th of July. You explained that you were
5 searching the terrain. Just so we're clear -- just so that we're clear,
6 could you please explain to us what exactly you were supposed to search
8 A. No.
9 Q. Mr. Cvjetinovic, are we to believe -- is this Court to believe
10 that you as a deputy company commander had been given instructions to
11 search the terrain but you had no idea what you were searching for? Is
12 that what you're asking us to believe? I'm sorry, did you hear the
13 question? I'm not sure if you heard the question or not.
14 A. I heard the question, but I didn't quite understand what you are
15 getting at.
16 Q. I asked you whether you knew what you were searching for when you
17 were searching the terrain. You told me you did not know what you were
18 searching for. Did we understand that correctly, that you would have us
19 believe that as a deputy commander of this company you did not know what
20 you were searching for when you were sent into the terrain to search?
21 A. We were supposed to find civilians and send them to Potocari.
22 Q. Is that all you were supposed to search for?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is there a reason why everyone in the video and the photographs is
25 armed, if you're searching for civilians? Again, can I just check if the
1 question has gone through in translation.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Take your time, Mr. Cvjetinovic.
4 A. Armed soldiers went to search the terrain carrying their weapons,
5 because they couldn't be sure they wouldn't run into armed men among the
7 Q. Of course. And what would they have done if they had run into
8 armed men among the civilians?
9 A. I don't know what they would have done.
10 Q. Mr. Cvjetinovic, you are the deputy company commander. You're
11 responsible for 76 men. You did not give any instructions on what should
12 happen if they came across armed men while searching the terrain?
13 A. No, because the acting company komandir, Zoran Ostojic, was in
14 front of me and he was giving instructions to all the men.
15 Q. Did you happen to hear what instruction he was giving to the men
16 as a deputy company commander?
17 A. No, because I was in the back.
18 Q. So in fact you're telling us that you did not know what the men
19 were supposed to do when they came across armed men during the search,
20 whether they were supposed to kill them or what?
21 A. Send them to Potocari.
22 Q. The armed men as well; is that what you're saying?
23 A. Take away their weapons and send them off without weapons to
25 Q. Who was going to take them back to Potocari?
1 A. One of the men there.
2 Q. Who was going to receive them in Potocari?
3 A. I don't know who.
4 Q. Were you given any instructions on taking prisoners?
5 A. No.
6 Q. No instructions whatsoever on taking prisoners?
7 A. If we took prisoners, a soldier would take them to Potocari.
8 Q. And give them to who?
9 A. Take them to the group of people in the industrial zone.
10 Q. Let me just move on to something else.
11 Mr. Cvjetinovic, the morning of the 12th of July when did you
12 report to your position at Zuti Most, or were you there already overnight?
13 A. We were there at Zuti Most.
14 Q. I'm sorry. Does that mean you were there overnight?
15 A. On the 12th, yes. In the night of the 11th to the 12th.
16 Q. Were there any armed Serb forces who passed your position in the
17 early morning of the 12th of July?
18 A. Yes. The special police.
19 Q. About what time did they pass?
20 A. It was around 8.00 in the morning.
21 Q. Were you given any orders or messages or instructions about that?
22 A. No. We only followed them as they went on to Budak.
23 Q. How did you know to follow them?
24 A. I didn't understand.
25 Q. Did someone tell you to follow them?
1 A. To follow them, is that what you meant?
2 Q. Yes, that's what I mean.
3 A. The communications man said we were supposed to go behind them.
4 Q. Which communications man are you talking about?
5 A. Miladin Ivic.
6 Q. Where was he situated? Where was he located?
7 A. In the company command, at the communications equipment.
8 Q. And where did he receive this communication from?
9 A. I don't know. I didn't ask him.
10 Q. Do you think it came from a superior command?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know which superior command you think it came from?
13 A. No.
14 Q. How did you know it was special police? You told us it was
15 special police.
16 A. We saw them in police uniforms.
17 Q. You saw them in police uniforms, but how did you know they were
18 special police?
19 A. We assumed that.
20 Q. Mr. Cvjetinovic, did you receive any information before they
21 arrived that they were going to arrive, or did they just suddenly appear?
22 A. They suddenly appeared. We didn't know anything.
23 Q. Isn't there a risk in the field if someone suddenly appears on
24 your position that you might fire on them?
25 A. If somebody arrived in front of us, yes, we would have to fire.
1 Q. I'll just move on.
2 You explained earlier that in the 2nd Company - and please correct
3 me if I'm wrong - that there was -- there were no mortars. Did I get that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, we've heard recently from the 4th Company commander that
7 there was a mortar group behind the positions of the 2nd Company. Do you
8 know anything about that?
9 A. Behind the 3rd Company there was one, not behind the 2nd. Behind
10 the 2nd, there was civilians.
11 Q. There were civilians -- now, behind we're talking about in the
12 direction of Bratunac, of course, because we're talking about when you
13 were at Zuti Most.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So there was civilians behind you?
16 A. Yes. The civilian population.
17 Q. Do you know what a Z-I-S is? And perhaps it's just a ZIS, if
18 that's the correct pronunciation.
19 A. There was a ZIS in the 1st Company.
20 Q. Was it by any chance on the days between the 6th of July and the
21 12th of July located behind the 2nd Company?
22 A. I didn't notice that.
23 Q. We heard recently that there was such a thing behind you but you
24 didn't notice it while you were at your position at Zuti Most. Is that
25 what you're telling us?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know anything about someone from the 2nd Company leading
3 the special police unit through a minefield?
4 A. No.
5 MR. SHIN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
7 Any re-direct?
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, just a little bit.
9 Re-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
10 Q. Mr. Cvjetinovic, could you please describe to us the training that
11 you received to become deputy company commander.
12 A. I was first a private soldier, then I was a platoon -- then the
13 platoon commander became sick and I replaced him. When the deputy
14 komandir of the company left the company and went to Caus, I replaced him.
15 Q. All right. Now, I understand when you were in the JNA you were a
16 cook. So I take it at some point you must have taken lessons on how to
17 cook or to be a cook for the army. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. My question is: What kind of training, specific training,
20 did they give you, other than being promoted from cook to being a deputy
21 company commander, as the Prosecutor would have us believe that you are
22 some sort of a highly trained officer?
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
24 MR. SHIN: There's no need to make argument on that point,
25 Your Honour. That's an inappropriate way of indicating to the witness how
1 he should answer.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, the question was posed: Are we
3 to believe, sir, with an attitude of the question. So I'm trying to get
4 at if we are to believe he is a deputy company commander, I would like to
5 know what specific training he received in order to earn that position.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, to tell the truth, we don't think
7 this question is relevant.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I would like to just have the answer as to if
9 he received any specific training other than being promoted from cook to
10 foot soldier to deputy company commander, because the title itself might
11 be misleading.
12 JUDGE LIU: After all, deputy commander of a company, it's not a
13 brigadier, you know.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. Very well.
15 Q. Could you please tell us, sir, what specific training you received
16 in searching terrain.
17 A. None whatsoever.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, here is a question: Did the company
22 search along the road or did they also search in the woods?
23 A. Only along the road.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, if you were searching only on the road, you told
25 us you proceed in a single file.
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE LIU: So you could not find anybody who was not on the road?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
5 At this stage are there any documents to tender? Mr. Karnavas?
6 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
8 Mr. Shin?
9 MR. SHIN: Just one moment, please.
10 No, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
12 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give
13 your evidence. The usher will show you out of the room. We wish you a
14 pleasant journey back home. You may go now.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
20 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
21 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: MILADIN VUKSIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
2 Mr. Karnavas.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
4 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:
5 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. Could you please tell us what your name is.
8 A. Miladin Vuksic.
9 Q. Would you please tell us your last name letter by letter.
10 A. Letter by letter?
11 Q. Yeah.
12 A. V-u-k-s-i-c, M-i-l-a-d-i-n.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vuksic. Could you please tell us where are you
15 A. From Bratunac.
16 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention to July 1995. Could you
17 please tell us whether you had been mobilised and whether you were serving
18 in the military back then in July 1995.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would you please tell us in which unit you were serving.
21 A. I was serving in the 2nd Company of the 2nd Battalion.
22 Q. All right. You're sure about that now?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall who was your company commander?
25 A. My company commander was Slobodan Ostojic.
1 Q. Do you recall who the deputy company commander was?
2 A. No, I don't. I cannot remember because he was absent.
3 Q. All right. Now, were you serving, were you mobilised and active,
4 during the time when Srebrenica fell?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you given any orders when Srebrenica was attacked on the 6th
7 to advance and perhaps take any territory or try to kill as many enemy
8 soldiers as you could find from your location?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you advance in any way from July 6th to July 11th when
11 Srebrenica fell?
12 A. I don't remember the date, but when Srebrenica fell we received an
13 order through the communications system to leave the line and come down to
15 Q. All right. Now, we're going to talk about that. Do you recall
16 going into Potocari after the fall of Srebrenica?
17 A. The entire company left, yes. I remember that.
18 Q. All right. Do you know where you were supposed to be going?
19 A. I was told that we were supposed to go towards the village of
20 Budak and Pale.
21 Q. Now, in order to get to Budak, do you have to go through Potocari?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you go to Potocari?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right.
1 A. We got to what is now the memorial centre, and the memorial centre
2 is 2 kilometres from Potocari.
3 Q. All right. Now --
4 A. 2 kilometres from the centre.
5 Q. Okay. Now, when you're talking about Potocari, are you referring
6 to the town of Potocari or are you referring to the area of Potocari?
7 A. The area of Potocari.
8 Q. All right. Did you ever go to where the people had been gathered
9 from Srebrenica?
10 A. We passed through the area when they were gathered there, but then
11 we were supposed to turn off, at least 50 metres away from that group.
12 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you a videotape. We've just seen
13 it with the previous witness, but I want to show you this videotape.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And perhaps you might be able to help us out here.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now -- okay. If we could have it play a little bit.
18 [Videotape played]
19 MR. KARNAVAS:
20 Q. Do you see yourself there --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, is that a weapon that you're carrying?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, could you please tell us where exactly is this location.
2 A. This is before Potocari, 2 kilometres away, as I indicated.
3 Q. Now, when we see the buses, in which direction are those buses
4 facing, if we go a little bit further on the videotape. Let's see.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. KARNAVAS:
7 Q. We see the buses. Do you see them?
8 A. Yes, towards Bratunac.
9 Q. Okay. Now, who gave you permission to be in that location?
10 A. There was no special permission. We were there out of curiosity.
11 Q. How long did you stay in that area?
12 A. In Potocari? Are you referring to Potocari?
13 Q. Yes, that area. How long were you there?
14 A. We were just there in passing.
15 Q. Were you ordered to be there to guard the Muslims that were trying
16 to get on to the buses?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you there in order to harass them or abuse them or to show a
19 strength of force of what might happen to them?
20 A. No.
21 Q. While you were there, did you have an opportunity to speak with
23 A. You mean Muslims?
24 Q. Yes. Did you meet -- did you stop and meet and speak with anyone?
25 A. An elderly man recognised me and he started walking towards me,
1 and I realised he wanted to ask something. I did not refuse to speak to
2 him. That was all. We greeted each other. That was all. And I
3 said -- I asked him if he was hungry and he just nodded his head, and that
4 was that.
5 Q. All right. So that was just a brief encounter?
6 A. Just that.
7 Q. Did you recognise the man?
8 A. Well, he first recognised me and I recognised him when he came
10 Q. And when you asked him if he was hungry and he nodded his --
11 A. Yes. That was it, nothing else.
12 Q. Okay. When he nodded that he was hungry, did you do anything?
13 A. He didn't say anything, he just nodded his head, and I immediately
14 took out half a loaf of bread and gave it to him. And then he left.
15 Q. Well, how is it that you had a half a loaf of bread with you?
16 A. I had a whole loaf of bread, but I broke it in two.
17 Q. Well, where did you get the bread if you had been with your
18 company the night before and now it's July 12th, when did you have time to
19 run to the bakery and come back in order to go to Budak?
20 A. We didn't run to the bakery. A man arrived and he gave us a loaf
21 of bread each and two cans of liverwurst.
22 Q. How long did you stay in that area?
23 A. I walked from there to Budak. And Pale, when we got there, we sat
24 down to have some rest. I and two other elderly men were then released
25 and sent back home.
1 Q. All right. Now, let me get you back to Potocari where that group
2 of people were gathered. Did you see any higher-echelon officers while
3 you were there?
4 A. I saw Mladic.
5 Q. And where was he when you saw him?
6 A. He was walking towards us, coming from the direction of
8 Q. Did you recognise him?
9 A. Not until he slapped a soldier.
10 Q. Well, please describe to us what you saw.
11 A. Well, I saw him slapping this soldier, and then I asked a
12 colleague of mine: Who is this man who just slapped this soldier? And he
13 said this was Mladic. And when I learned that this was Mladic, I
14 immediately turned around and went back to this group of my colleagues.
15 Q. Do you know why Mladic slapped the soldier?
16 A. Well, I noticed that the soldier was carrying some kind of tape
18 Q. All right. And did you hear General Mladic say anything to the
19 soldier while he was slapping him, either before or after?
20 A. When he slapped him, he cursed his mother and he said: Have you
21 come here to plunder or what?
22 Q. Now, you said that you eventually made it to Budak. How long were
23 you there in Budak?
24 A. As I've just indicated, I said that I eventually got to Pale,
25 having passed through Budak, where we sat down to have some rest. And
1 then, after that, me and two other elderly men were excused and sent back
3 Q. How did you go -- how did you get back home?
4 A. On foot.
5 Q. Were you on the path or did you go through the woods?
6 A. One of us whose home was in the vicinity of Potocari knew a
7 shortcut, so we took that shortcut to go home.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vuksic.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
11 Any direct, Mr. Shin?
12 MR. SHIN: Some cross, yes, certainly, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE LIU: Sorry.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Shin:
15 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. I wonder if I could ask you to clarify some of the terminology you
18 were using earlier. When you mentioned -- when you talk about Potocari,
19 where -- and when you were talking about Potocari just now, where does
20 Potocari start as you're walking from Zuti Most toward Srebrenica?
21 A. From Zuti Most you reach Potocari almost immediately. It's almost
22 connected to Potocari.
23 Q. So you were in Potocari, as you used the term, before you turn off
24 the road towards Budak, as you explained?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You explained in -- also during the -- in your testimony
2 earlier - please correct me if I'm wrong - that you passed through the
3 area of people. Did I understand that correctly?
4 A. I mean where the buses were parked. That's where it was, because
5 I was supposed to turn off some 50 metres from the buses and then continue
6 towards Budak. And some four or five of us continued for about 50 metres,
7 that was all.
8 Q. I'm sorry. If you could explain that. Maybe if I take that piece
9 by piece. You were supposed to turn off 50 metres from the buses, from
10 the buses in what direction, 50 metres?
11 A. To the right, towards Budak.
12 Q. How many buses had you passed by the time you got to the turn-off
13 for Budak?
14 A. Maybe two.
15 Q. Now --
16 A. I really cannot remember for sure, but thereabouts.
17 Q. And you also said that you continued for about 50 metres,
18 continued where?
19 A. There is this 50-metre distance between the first turn-off where
20 we were supposed to turn off. And four of us continued towards the buses.
21 This is this 50-metre difference, from the spot where the rest of the
22 soldiers turned.
23 Q. Do you recall who those other people who were with you, who they
24 are, their names?
25 A. I know, for instance, Cvijetin Stevic, and the other three, I
1 forgot their names.
2 Q. Did you recognise them on the video?
3 A. Yes, I recognised Cvijetin. I recognised the other two, or
4 rather, three as well, but I don't know their names.
5 Q. Now, where -- how -- where did you go to? What was it you were
6 walking towards when you went this 50 metres?
7 A. Sorry, I didn't understand.
8 Q. Were you headed to anything in particular, any object or
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, you mentioned you were also passing through people. Do you
12 know how many people you passed? And I'm now talking about the soldiers
13 in your unit now.
14 A. There was this elderly man -- are you referring to soldiers
15 or... ?
16 Q. No. I'm not referring to soldiers; I'm referring to civilians.
17 A. I only saw this man, and there may have been five to six women and
18 children. This was on the approach road to Potocari, and this man, this
19 elderly man, happened to be there, and he recognised me.
20 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to look at this video you were shown
21 earlier. I'm going to ask you to take one look at it again. If you could
22 please watch it closely. And for reference this is Prosecution Exhibit
24 A. Very well.
25 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry. We're going to be playing it from Sanction.
1 I forgot to note that.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MR. SHIN:
4 Q. Now, just the part that we saw before, it looked like --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I'm sorry. Let me try that again. Just from the few seconds that
7 we saw from the beginning of the tape until now, it looked like you may
8 have been passing just on that screen, ten maybe more, a column of people.
9 Is that correct?
10 A. No. These people were moving from Potocari to Bratunac.
11 Q. I understand that. I'm just asking how many civilians you were
12 passing at that point.
13 A. Like I said, I didn't actually dare to observe around, and then
14 when someone mentioned Mladic, I turned around, not only me but others as
15 well. We just turned around and went over to where our group was.
16 Q. Okay. And if we could just continue the video from here, please.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. SHIN:
19 Q. Just so we're clear about one thing. That is actually an entire
20 column of civilians walking on the other side of the road from you, isn't
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It's more than just five or six women?
24 A. Yes, there were more. I didn't count. I just saw this elderly
25 man; he was the only man I saw.
1 Q. I'm sorry. I don't understand what you mean by "saw." You
2 obviously saw far more than that. You saw that entire column of women and
3 children, and possibly some men as well, right across the street from you.
4 Is that correct?
5 A. I hardly noticed anyone, except for that man. Because I was
6 afraid. It was hard for me. I simply went on.
7 Q. Now, you explained that the buses are facing in the direction of
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that a direction that -- I'm sorry. Let me begin that again.
11 Is that the direction that you and the other men from the
12 2nd Company are walking?
13 A. Yes. From Bratunac.
14 Q. I'm sorry. You're saying that you're walking from Bratunac to
16 A. Yes, yes. From Bratunac toward Potocari.
17 Q. You were walking from Bratunac toward Potocari, meaning the
18 direction from Bratunac to Srebrenica. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the buses are in the direction from Srebrenica to Bratunac.
21 Is that correct?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at this video one last time. If you
24 could pay attention to what direction you and the other soldiers from the
25 2nd Company are walking in.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. SHIN:
3 Q. These are the women and children walking towards Bratunac, as you
4 explained, because the buses are facing towards Bratunac, the buses and
5 the trucks. Now, we see maybe six or seven and more soldiers further down
6 on the left, is that correct, a line of them, in fact. Is that correct?
7 A. There was soldiers, but I'm not sure they were from my company.
8 Q. If we can keep it held there for a minute. At this point we've
9 passed some six or seven buses and maybe even further up ahead. Is that
11 A. I didn't count, as I said.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, please forgive
13 me, but I'm an elderly man. A long time has elapsed. I've forgotten a
14 lot of things and I can't recall. I don't want it to appear as if I was
16 MR. SHIN:
17 Q. Well, we'll take it slowly then. If you need more time to
18 consider any questions, please feel free to just indicate that if that's
19 okay, sir. I'm sorry. I didn't get a response to that.
20 A. I beg your pardon?
21 Q. We'll just take it slowly.
22 The people along -- I'm sorry. Let me just go back to finish
23 playing the video.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. SHIN: Stop there, please.
1 Q. Do you see those soldiers there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recognise any of those soldiers?
4 A. Not here.
5 Q. Now, how many people were in the 2nd Company?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Was it -- well, would you know if it's about 75 people?
8 A. I can't confirm that, because I'm not sure.
9 Q. Do you know if it was more or less than 100 people?
10 A. Less, certainly.
11 Q. So would it be fair to say that you knew, at least by name, all
12 the people in that company?
13 A. Well, in general, no, because they came from various villages and
14 we hadn't met before that.
15 Q. Where we've stopped the frame right now, I don't know if we have a
16 reference for that.
17 MR. SHIN: Is there a time reference or something?
18 Q. Where we've stopped right now is a -- maybe if we could replace
19 that with page 4 from chapter 12. If we could keep the video frozen,
21 MR. SHIN: And this again is Exhibit 22, I believe.
22 Q. Mr. Vuksic, sir, if you could please take a look, either on the
23 photograph next to you on that machine or on the screen in front of you.
24 Does this help you recognise any of the people on this photograph? Yes,
25 please, use your glasses, by all means.
1 A. No.
2 Q. So you don't know whether they -- you don't know them or you don't
3 know whether they're from -- I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that. You don't
4 know them?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you not know whether they're from the 2nd Battalion or not,
7 even if you don't know their identity -- I'm sorry, 2nd Company,
8 2nd Battalion?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And mention that there were, as you can see in this photograph,
11 soldiers further ahead, you see that to your right in the photograph?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. They were a little further down the road. Now, that group on the
14 right, just as the group on the left, you don't know whether they're
15 2nd Company, 2nd Battalion, or not. Is that correct?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. So apart from the couple names you mentioned, among the other
18 soldiers there, along that road you don't recall now whether they were
19 2nd Company, 2nd Battalion, or not?
20 JUDGE LIU: I think the witness answered the question already.
21 MR. SHIN: Okay. I'll move on, Your Honour.
22 Q. Just looking at this photograph right here, what direction are
23 these people walking? They are walking away from the perspective of the
24 camera. Isn't that right?
25 A. I can't be precise in my answer, because some are facing Bratunac
1 and others are facing Budak on the right-hand side.
2 Q. Would it be fair to say that most of the people in this picture
3 had their back turned toward the camera?
4 A. Well, I don't know what side the camera was filming from.
5 Q. But they're walking away from the camera? It's not meant to be a
6 complicated question, sir.
7 A. Well, you might say that they were facing Bratunac, one group, and
8 the other group is facing -- I can't recall precisely from what side this
9 was taken, whether from Srebrenica or Bratunac. I can't be very precise
10 in my answer.
11 Q. Okay. Then we'll return to the video and finish playing it here.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. SHIN: Mr. President, I'm just going to require maybe five
14 minutes, maybe a little bit more. I'm not sure if you want to take a
15 break or if I should continue.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I would like to ask the cooperation from the
17 interpreters and the technician people to see whether we could sit here
18 for 10 more minutes.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.
21 You may proceed, but don't forget, you have to leave some time for
22 the re-direct.
23 MR. SHIN: Yes, of course, Mr. President.
24 And my thanks to the interpreters as well.
25 Q. Mr. Vuksic, when you were moving towards Budak, you were engaged
1 in a search operation. Correct?
2 A. It was only for purposes of information, some sort of search.
3 Q. If I understand you correctly, you were searching for information
5 A. No. Who would I ask for information?
6 Q. Isn't it true that you were searching for armed Muslims? Wasn't
7 that your instruction?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Then what were you searching for?
10 A. Who said we were searching for something? What were we searching
12 Q. Just specifically, on the 12th of July, 13th of July, did you have
13 any orders, instructions --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- to search the terrain?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you realise that there are orders, brigade orders, and other
18 information that's been in evidence here and that's been brought to the
19 attention of the Office of the Prosecutor that your unit was searching the
20 terrain for armed Muslims? Is that -- does that sound familiar to you?
21 A. I don't know at all. Who got this order? Nobody told you
22 anything. I heard from my friends when we set out from Zuti Most toward
23 Potocari that we were going through Budak towards Pale. Neither the
24 komandir nor anybody else explained to me that we had any orders.
25 Q. Just one last area of questions, Mr. Vuksic. During this time
1 when you were walking along, the people, the civilians, and the buses in
2 this area of Potocari, did you see any men being separated from the women
3 in that group?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Have you ever heard anything about that, either that time or
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever hear that the men from Srebrenica, whether they were
9 captured there or in other parts of the Srebrenica area, including up to
10 Konjevic Polje? Did you ever hear that these men were executed?
11 A. I didn't hear that they were taken prisoner, but I did hear there
12 were casualties. I can't say I didn't hear that. I didn't see it, but I
13 did hear about it.
14 Q. Now, let's set aside casualties. So you -- are you telling us
15 you've never heard anything about Muslim men being taken prisoner in the
16 Srebrenica area and outside of the Srebrenica area along the
17 Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road and executed? You never heard anything about
19 A. No, I didn't hear anything about that.
20 MR. SHIN: No further questions, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
22 Any re-direct?
23 MR. KARNAVAS: No re-direct.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 Are there any documents to tender at this stage?
1 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE LIU: From the Prosecution?
3 MR. SHIN: Nothing, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
5 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give
6 your evidence. When the sitting is adjourned, the usher will show you out
7 of the room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.
8 The hearing for today is adjourned.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
11 at 4.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
12 the 7th day of May, 2004,
13 at 9.00 a.m.