Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9213

1 Thursday, 13 May 2004

2 [Open Session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, The Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. Karnavas, before we have

10 the next witness, is there anything that you would like to raise?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, there are two matters, Your Honour. One is

12 today we received some disclosure material that dates back to incident

13 from May 25, 1995. It's exculpatory in a sense because it validates our

14 position that the strikes on May 25, 1995 were as a result of the NATO

15 bombings that occurred in Pale. And of course, this is -- this issue was

16 raised when Witness Mico Gavric was here. The Prosecution was able to

17 locate a document with respect to some strikes on that day. We were able

18 to find the NIAD report which indicated their opinion as to why the

19 strikes occurred. And now we have documents from the Muslim army giving

20 their assessment. Obviously, they're exculpatory, we believe, because it

21 at least demonstrates the reasons why that occurrence took place, the

22 justification, if there is such a thing, for that.

23 But more importantly, why it's not part of some overall joint

24 criminal enterprise, at least pursuant to the theory of the Prosecution

25 that would have commenced sometime in June 1995. My complaint is, if we

Page 9214

1 can term it that way, is that I understand we have a lot of documents.

2 The Prosecution has a lot of search engines. I bring a witness here. I

3 anticipate the best I can. I would expect the Prosecution to by now since

4 they have our witness list to begin to do early searches, and I really

5 appreciate and admire their efforts to bring these documents at this late

6 of the day. However, it does prejudice me somewhat in that now I have no

7 opportunity to at least show these documents to the gentleman to at least

8 point that there is -- there are alternative reasons other than perhaps

9 the ones that the trial -- the Prosecution would want to argue.

10 So now I have to find a way to get these documents in. The reason

11 I'm making -- I'm asking for this little meeting is to please instruct the

12 Prosecution to make any additional efforts they can, now that they know

13 our witness list, to try to locate any documents that they might have. We

14 understand they're doing that. But we would appreciate if perhaps they

15 could do it all the witnesses and not wait until the last moment because

16 it's causing a lot of grieve. That's the first issue.

17 The second issue, and perhaps we can deal with even after the --

18 today's hearing because I think the witnesses will be rather short. Last

19 week in the Institute of War and Peace Reporting, a report came out where

20 it states that Milan Lukic of Visegrad had been cooperating with the OTP

21 investigators in order -- in giving them information, potential

22 information with respect to Karadzic.

23 Now, of course I'm sceptical of the media, as most people are.

24 But however, it would appear at least from reading this, it says that the

25 Tribunal would not confirm that Milan Lukic had arranged a meeting, but

Page 9215

1 they told IWPR team that he was in regular contact with them, in other

2 words with the Office of the Prosecution or investigators from the office

3 of the Prosecution. We believe that this is exculpatory information. We

4 would like to know, and perhaps Mr. McCloskey is unaware of these efforts,

5 but we would like the Trial Chamber to instruct the Prosecution to get to

6 the bottom of this and tell us whether they are contacting Lukic, whether

7 they have information from Lukic, whether they -- we can arrange a meeting

8 with Mr. Lukic to take his deposition and so on and so forth. But I think

9 this might be exculpatory information, particularly since the Prosecution

10 would have its cake and it's eating it, too. On the one hand, they're

11 claiming that Lukic was involved; on the other hand, they're negotiating

12 for him to give them information about Karadzic. And, of course, from my

13 experience negotiating with criminals in the past only tends to bring out

14 the worst of evidence from them as we have seen with Mr. Nikolic and

15 Mr. Deronjic. So those are the things I wanted to bring to the Court's

16 attention.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Dealing with that second issue first, I've heard

19 similar press reports. I have no reason to believe any of that is true.

20 Milan Lukic is an indicted war criminal of some of the most vicious crimes

21 imaginable, and I have no reason to believe any of that's true. And if I

22 get any information on that, that is of a discoverable nature I will share

23 it. And of course, Mr. Karnavas knows he can come to me and discuss this

24 sort of thing with me, and I will search and look and ask questions and

25 find if it's there. So I don't know why that kind of thing is necessary

Page 9216

1 to talk about in open court.

2 Regarding the first issue, complaining that you're getting

3 discovery is a new one for me. And as the could you recall recalls, Mico

4 Gavric got up and made this statement that they never fired a shot at the

5 enclave until July 11th. That piqued our interest, so we looked into it.

6 The Court saw what we found, these May 25th documents that we were able to

7 get quickly for the Court that we, of course, provided. We've continued

8 to look at that. We think this is a very significant incident. And it

9 does appear as if it was retaliation for NATO bombing. But retaliation

10 for NATO bombing by striking a civilian target is a war crime, a serious

11 war crime. This is the same day that another corps fired artillery rounds

12 into Tuzla killing 70 kids, civilians, in the downtown of Tuzla, clearly

13 an organised effort by the VRS to strike back at civilian targets to try

14 to dissuade NATO from attacking them.

15 In this case, it's extremely important, it shows the first day of

16 Mr. Blagojevic's day in office. He is going along with the corps orders

17 to fire serious heavy artillery rounds right in downtown Srebrenica, and

18 you will hear more on this evidence because there were casualties, and I

19 won't argue anything more on it. But this was a very nasty incident. It

20 shows -- it gets into the intent of the people involved. And so we fully

21 intend to search this out. And as we get material, as is our agreement,

22 we'll provide that to Mr. Karnavas. I don't see anything exculpatory in

23 this, that his client is involved in war crimes. So I will continue to

24 provide that information, and we will continue to -- to try to find as

25 much as we can on this incident, and we will be asking witnesses about it

Page 9217

1 as is appropriate and is relevant. So that would be my response to the

2 first issue brought up by Mr. Karnavas.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's very difficult for the Bench to make

4 a ruling at this stage because we haven't received the document yet. We

5 don't know the contents of it. But one matter I would like to bring

6 attention to is that I think we should beware of the proliferation of this

7 case. We should concentrate on the incidents after July 11th. If we

8 reach back, well, we should go a long way back, and at this stage I would

9 not like to see we make the case bigger and bigger. So this Trial Chamber

10 only admits the documents which is closely relevant to this particular

11 case.

12 As for the Srebrenica incidents, I think it's a big, very big

13 issue. This Tribunal might have another opportunity to deal with it in

14 the future or some historians will make some comments on it. I believe

15 that's their job. Our job is to see whether the two accused are guilty or

16 not.

17 I think this is all I have to say at this stage because we almost

18 have no information about this document at this moment. But we encourage

19 the parties to get in touch with the other to solve any problems facing

20 them, and as the last resort, the Chamber will do its best to assist the

21 parties for the smooth sailing of the proceedings.

22 Mr. Karnavas, are you ready for the next witness?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Are there any protective measures?

25 MR. KARNAVAS: None whatsoever.

Page 9218

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

5 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

15 Q. Good morning, sir.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Could you please tell us your name.

18 A. My name is Milomir Tanasijevic.

19 Q. Could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.

20 A. T-a-n-a-s-i-j-e-v-i-c.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

22 Mr. Tanasijevic, could you please tell us where are you from?

23 A. I'm from Srebrenica.

24 Q. Where did you grow up?

25 A. In Srebrenica.

Page 9219

1 Q. Where did you go to school?

2 A. In Srebrenica where I completed elementary school, and I completed

3 secondary school in Bratunac.

4 Q. All right. Now, did you do your JNA training?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you please tell us where it was that you did your training.

7 A. In Belgrade.

8 Q. In what unit?

9 A. Tito's Guards.

10 Q. In what year was that, sir?

11 A. 1977.

12 Q. Now, after you completed your military service, where did you

13 work?

14 A. I worked until 1980 in the Vares factory in Potocari. And in

15 1980, I move to the lead and zinc mine of Sase.

16 Q. And what were you doing there?

17 A. I worked in maintenance, the maintenance for pit machinery and

18 mining machinery.

19 Q. Do you have any particular training?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us what training did you receive?

22 A. Higher education, and I received training, and later on in

23 Belgrade I went on to grade 5 for the mechanical engineering stream.

24 Q. All right. Now, sir, are you currently employed?

25 A. No.

Page 9220

1 Q. Where do you currently live?

2 A. I live in Srebrenica.

3 Q. Now, in 1992 when the war broke out, where were you living?

4 A. Srebrenica.

5 Q. And did you stay in Srebrenica throughout the war?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Where did you go?

8 A. To Bratunac.

9 Q. Why did you leave Srebrenica?

10 A. Because the Muslims killed three members of my immediate family in

11 an ambush. They were unarmed, and we saw that we would all lose our lives

12 like that, that their forces would kill us. There were groups, so we had

13 to withdraw to Bratunac for our safety and security.

14 Q. Now prior to moving to Bratunac, were you involve in the

15 Territorial Defence, the TO?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where was that?

18 A. In Srebrenica.

19 Q. Was that part of the Serbian TO versus the Muslim TO?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you move to Srebrenica -- I mean to Bratunac, had the

22 Bratunac Brigade been formed?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When you move to Bratunac, did you become a member of the

25 Territorial Defence in Bratunac?

Page 9221

1 A. No. I received an invitation to go and work in the lead and zinc

2 mine.

3 Q. All right. Well, who extended that invitation?

4 A. The company director.

5 Q. So during that period, you were not mobilised?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, when the Bratunac Brigade -- did you ever become a member of

8 the Bratunac Brigade?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please tell us when that was.

11 A. Well, since the Bratunac Brigade was established.

12 Q. Do you recall when that would have been, what year at least,

13 perhaps the month?

14 A. I think it was 1993, thereabouts.

15 Q. Could you please tell us what position you held when you were

16 initially -- when you initially became a member of the Bratunac Brigade?

17 A. An ordinary soldier.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm hearing some noises.

19 Q. All right. Now, let me fast-forward to 1995, July. Were you

20 still a member of the Bratunac Brigade then?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you please tell us what your position was back in July 1995?

23 A. I was at the APC at Pribicevac.

24 Q. That's also referred to as a transporter?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9222

1 Q. And what was your position, your particular position within the

2 APC unit or whatever you want to call it?

3 A. For a time, I was a member of the crew. When the komandir of the

4 transporter was demobilised, I became the komandir myself. I replaced him

5 as komandir of the APC.

6 Q. In 1995, did you hold that position, that is, being the komandir?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you please tell us for how long you had been the komandir?

9 A. Perhaps a month.

10 Q. Could you please tell us how many members were you the komandir

11 of?

12 A. Eight men.

13 Q. Now, that was the entire unit for the APC?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How many men per shift?

16 A. Four.

17 Q. All right. Now, this APC unit, did it belong to a particular

18 company within a particular battalion?

19 A. Well, all the companies wanted for security purposes to belong to

20 someone, and they would appropriate us, if I could put it that way. And

21 at one of the meetings of the commanding offices of the company, it was

22 agreed that the APC came under orders of the battalion commander

23 exclusively, otherwise we were listed in the second, or rather third

24 company of the 3rd Battalion for a time.

25 Q. In light of that, who was your commanding officer, your immediate

Page 9223

1 commanding officer?

2 A. At the time it was Dragan Zekic.

3 Q. He was the commander of the 3rd Battalion, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, you indicated that this APC was located in Pribicevac. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you please tell us for how long it had been located there.

9 A. Yes, I can. When I arrived at Pribicevac, when I was deployed

10 there, I found it there at Pribicevac located there from the 3rd of August

11 1993.

12 Q. All right. And had it moved its location from the time that you

13 had arrived there on the 3rd of August 1993 to, say, July 6th 1995?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, before we speak about the condition of the APC, could you

16 please tell us where you and the other members of this unit would stay

17 when you were up in Pribicevac?

18 A. We would stay in the trenches.

19 Q. Where was the trench in relation to the APC; that is, the trench

20 that was used for your unit?

21 A. Well, at a distance of 3 or 4 metres.

22 Q. Could you please describe to us a little bit what this trench

23 looked like. Its dimensions, what it had, the amenities.

24 A. The trench was perhaps 4 by 3 in dimension. It was dug into the

25 ground. There were some pallets for sleeping on, set up temporarily where

Page 9224

1 we could put our equipment, and that's all. And an area for equipment.

2 Our personal belongings, that's all.

3 Q. Now Pribicevac, as I understand it, it's sort of a wide area.

4 During that period of time, from August 3rd 1993 to July 6th 1995, did you

5 move the APC around Pribicevac at all?

6 A. No, except in March, I think it was, 1995, when we were moved from

7 the elevation point we were at in 1993 to be closer to the battalion

8 command.

9 Q. All right. What about your trench? Did you move your trench?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you hold that same trench when you were -- back in July 6th,

12 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, we've heard testimony here that there was a place called Kula

15 up there in Pribicevac. Are you aware of that location?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please tell us how far or how close your trench and the

18 APC were located from Kula?

19 A. Until March 1995, we were located at Kula. When we moved it

20 closer to the battalion command, we were about 400 to 500 metres away.

21 Q. And how close were you to the battalion command?

22 A. Between three and four hundred metres.

23 Q. When you say "battalion command," are we referring to the

24 battalion command of the 3rd Battalion?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 9225

1 Q. Could you please tell us what the condition was of the APC.

2 A. Yes. It was -- well, as a mechanical engineering man myself, the

3 APC from the first day it arrived, it was out of order as far as I was

4 concerned. And for the following reasons; it had the following things

5 wrong with it: The systems connection on the APC was out of order, it

6 never functioned at all. So the protective helmets, the interphone, and

7 things like that. So the crew could not make themselves understood and

8 communicate. The motor of the APC itself, the engine, in a short period

9 of time would become very heated and expulse water from the cooling

10 systems, so that was no use. Then the next fault was the planetary system

11 for guidance was -- became overheated for steering, although the driver

12 worked with the APC before, so it was easier for him. But there were

13 fewer things that were right on the transporter rather than enumerating

14 the faults that it had.

15 Q. Okay. Now, what about the weaponry that was attached to this

16 transporter, this APC?

17 A. Of the weaponry on the transporter, only the Browning was in

18 working order. There were two guns which were out of order. The things

19 used to launch the projectiles were out of order, but we didn't really

20 need to launch any grenades from these guns. We would have to use a rope

21 because the hauling wires were out of order. And then we would have to

22 pull the trigger.

23 Q. So if I understand you correctly, of all the firing mechanisms, it

24 was the Browning that worked?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9226

1 Q. Could you please describe to us, what is this weapon?

2 A. This is an anti-aircraft machine-gun, 27 millimetres in calibre,

3 and it was mounted on a platform on the transporter.

4 Q. All right. Did you have ammunition for this?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, from August 3rd 1993 to, say, July 6th, 1995, could you

7 please tell us how many times this APC was engaged in battle activities.

8 A. Not once.

9 Q. Could you please tell us how often you would fire the Browning.

10 A. For Serbian Orthodox holidays, for Christmas, the Serbian New

11 Year, Easter, there would be fireworks, a few bullets would be fired into

12 the air because every fifth bullet on the browning was a tracer bullet and

13 this was used to create a festive atmosphere. We never actually fired

14 into Srebrenica, into the town itself.

15 Q. All right. Were you ever given during that period of time, from

16 1993 to 1995, and we'll stop with, say, July 6th, 1995, were you ever

17 given any orders to fire the Browning at any particular targets in

18 Srebrenica?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Could you fire the Browning or the other mechanisms with the rope

21 on your own accord?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Why not?

24 A. Because there was an order issued by the Main Staff, the General

25 Staff that not a single bullet was to be fired on the protected area of

Page 9227

1 Srebrenica.

2 Q. And so in light of that, in light of that order, were you ever

3 given any orders to fire, you, yourself?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. Now I want to go to July 6th and move day by day

6 onwards. And just as a point of reference, July 11th is the day that

7 Srebrenica fell, and July 6th is the day when the activity surrounding

8 Srebrenica began.

9 First of all, let me ask you, prior to July 6th, did you receive

10 any information or any orders to conduct any preparatory work concerning

11 the events that were about to begin in and around Srebrenica?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you ever informed that there was going to be some sort of

14 activities going on?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now, up in Pribicevac, we've heard testimony that the Drina Corps

17 established its forward command post. While you were up there, did you

18 ever see General Krstic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you know him by sight?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you know him personally? In other words, had you --

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you see General Mladic? And I'm speaking prior to July 6th up

25 there.

Page 9228

1 A. No.

2 Q. While you were up there, from July 6th, say, to July 11th, did you

3 see General Mladic?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Now, what about Colonel Blagojevic? Did you see him there?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, are you certain you didn't see him?

8 A. I'm absolutely certain, yes.

9 Q. All right. Could you please tell us about what time or when, what

10 date, if you recall now, that you saw General Krstic.

11 A. I think between the 8th and the 10th of July, in that period.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. But I don't know the exact date. It was in those days that I saw

14 him.

15 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us where it was that you saw him.

16 A. Well, I saw him at the so-called Do meadow above the transporter,

17 some hundred metres away.

18 Q. What was he doing?

19 A. He was observing in the direction of Bojna, standing there on that

20 plateau.

21 Q. Did you go up to him to speak with him?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Why not?

24 A. Well, there was no need for me to address him, and had there been

25 any need for me to talk to him, he would have sent his courier to fetch

Page 9229

1 someone from the transporter. He was a very high-ranking soldier.

2 Q. All right. Now, when you saw him, how close was he in relation to

3 the command post, the battalion command post?

4 A. About 400 metres away.

5 Q. From the command post itself?

6 A. Yes. The headquarters of the battalion command, the house where

7 the battalion command was.

8 Q. All right. Now, before we get into the actual details, a couple

9 of minor points. During that period when you were up there, I take it you

10 to eat. Right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And would you prepare the food at your trench?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Where would the food be prepared?

15 A. It was prepared in the neighbouring house, next to the battalion

16 command. We had a kitchen and a bakery for that purpose.

17 Q. Now -- and would your crew, you and your crew, go there to eat?

18 A. No.

19 Q. I take it the food was brought to your trench.

20 A. Well, one person from the trench would always go with a can and

21 bring back the food. Well, depending on how many people were in the

22 trench.

23 Q. Do you recall whether you, yourself, went there to pick up the

24 food from the 6th to the 11th?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9230

1 Q. And on any of those trips, did you see your commander,

2 Colonel Blagojevic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. During that period that you were there, did you ever go from your

5 spot, your location where the APC was, to Kula, some three or four hundred

6 metres --

7 A. No, there was no need for that.

8 Q. Did you ever move the APC around at all to try to get it

9 positioned --

10 A. No.

11 Q. Why not?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Why not?

14 A. Well, I told you that the vehicle was out of order, and also we

15 were not given any specific tasks to carry out.

16 Q. All right. Now, did there come a point in time when you did, in

17 fact, contact General Krstic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you please tell us why you had this contact with him, and

20 perhaps when it was.

21 A. This was, I think, around the 8th or the 9th of July. On the

22 meadows in front of the transporter, the village of Cicevci, the hamlet of

23 Bejino Selo, as it was called, there I noticed troops moving towards our

24 lines held by the 3rd Battalion. It was then that I approached the

25 General Krstic and asked him what we should do next because we felt that

Page 9231

1 as there were no units of ours in the direction of Srebrenica, I asked

2 whether we should cover the area with the Browning, the area where we had

3 noticed those troops moving.

4 Q. When you say cover the area, what do you mean by that? Just point

5 it in that direction?

6 A. In order to stop the advance of the Muslim units to our positions,

7 towards our positions.

8 Q. All right. But my specific question is you said you wanted to

9 cover that area. Were you suggesting to General Krstic that you relocate

10 or reposition the APC or were you suggesting that you actually fire it?

11 Which of the two, or if there's another possibility, please tell us.

12 A. It was not necessary to relocate the transporter. I was asking

13 for further instructions with regard to opening fire from the Browning.

14 Q. What was General Krstic's response?

15 A. That we should follow or monitor the situation, that we should not

16 open fire because there was no communications system that we could

17 establish with the line where this was happening, and the reason was that

18 we didn't want to injure our own soldiers, the Serbian men.

19 Q. All right. Did you ever -- did the situation change where an

20 order was eventually given to you to open up fire, to provide that --

21 A. No.

22 Q. Could you please tell us why you went to General Krstic, why

23 didn't you just act on your own, use your own judgement; after all you

24 were the komandir of this unit.

25 A. Well, I would have the right to make a judgement on my own if

Page 9232

1 there had not been any higher ranking military person there. Then I could

2 have made a judgement on my own. But in view of the fact that

3 General Krstic was in the vicinity it was my duty to seek further

4 instructions from him.

5 Q. Why didn't you make any efforts to try to locate either your

6 immediate commander, that is, Zekic, or Colonel Blagojevic, the commander

7 of the Bratunac Brigade?

8 A. The headquarters of Mr. Zekic, I didn't know where it was. And as

9 I said, we didn't have any communications system on the transporter or in

10 the trench. So I was unable to contact Mr. Zekic.

11 As for Mr. Blagojevic, as I've already said, I never saw him on

12 Pribicevac.

13 Q. All right. Now, that was -- you told us you weren't quite sure of

14 the date. Let me walk you through the days until we get to the 11th and

15 tell us whether you did anything unusual or anything at all. On the 6th,

16 did you do anything --

17 A. No.

18 Q. What about the 7th?

19 A. Well, the same applies to the 7th. We didn't do anything.

20 Q. What about the 8th?

21 A. No.

22 Q. The 9th?

23 A. No.

24 Q. The 10th?

25 A. On the 10th, well, I've just said. Either on the 9th or the 10th

Page 9233

1 I had that contact with General Krstic. But nothing significant happened.

2 Q. All right. On the 11th?

3 A. The same thing on the 11th. There was no movement of the unit.

4 Q. Okay.

5 Did that APC ever move its position?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you please tell us to the best of your recollection the date

8 when that APC was moved and the reasons why it moved.

9 A. As far as I can recall, we moved that transporter for the first

10 time on the 12th of July 1995. And we moved it in the afternoon when

11 General Mladic arrived.

12 Q. Were you expecting General Mladic?

13 A. No. Truth to tell, I wasn't expecting him.

14 Q. Well, tell us a little bit about this situation when

15 General Mladic came. Where were you?

16 A. We were in our trench by the transporter. When General Mladic

17 arrived, he asked us what we were doing there. We couldn't tell him what

18 our specific tasks were because we didn't have any. We told him we were

19 there, that we didn't know where to go. He said "well, the rear is being

20 packed up, the kitchen, it's going towards Bratunac." He told us to move

21 towards Srebrenica and to find our unit.

22 To this I replied that we didn't have fuel in the transporter, not

23 enough to reach Srebrenica. Then General Mladic called the rear komandir

24 and asked him if he had any petroleum, and this man said yes. And then

25 for the first time, I say for the first time since August 1993, they gave

Page 9234

1 us 80 litres of diesel fuel for the transporter. When the fuel was put

2 into the APC, we set off towards Srebrenica.

3 Q. All right. Now, had you -- you indicated this was July 12th.

4 We've heard testimony, and it's pretty certain by this point that July

5 11th Srebrenica had fallen. Were you aware of that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Since Srebrenica had fallen, why didn't you move your position?

8 A. Because I was waiting for orders from higher ranking officers.

9 The battalion commander or somebody higher up.

10 Q. All right. Now, did you go to Srebrenica as ordered?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you please describe to us the route that you took. Later on

13 we will go through a map. But first, if you could tell us what route did

14 you take?

15 A. From Pribicevac, there is a macadamised road leading to Zelani

16 Jadar through a wooded area known as Sibovi, and we arrived at Bukova

17 Glava, which is a hamlet of the village of Cicevci. From there, we went

18 to the hill of Javor. That's a meadow overlooking Srebrenica. From

19 Javor, we went on in the direction of the village of Biljeg, where there

20 was an UNPROFOR checkpoint. From Biljeg, we went down to a place called

21 Kozlje, and on to the asphalt road linking Srebrenica and Skela. And

22 along that asphalt road, we reached Srebrenica.

23 Q. All right. Now, did you actually go through Srebrenica?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And how far did you go through?

Page 9235

1 A. The whole of Srebrenica.

2 Q. Now, just so we know, when you enter Srebrenica, is that the

3 entrance if you are coming from Potocari heading towards Srebrenica, or

4 would that be from the other direction?

5 A. From the other direction, from the direction of Zelani Jadar and

6 Skela. When I say we passed through the whole of Srebrenica, we were

7 moving in the direction of Bratunac. That's what I mean when I say we

8 passed through the whole of Srebrenica.

9 Q. And when doing so, would you have to go through the town itself on

10 the asphalt road as you go through?

11 A. Yes, because there are only two streets in Srebrenica. You

12 couldn't go down a third street because it didn't exist. So we passed

13 through the town itself, yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now, could you please describe who you saw in Srebrenica

15 when you were passing through.

16 A. We arrived in Srebrenica in the afternoon. In Srebrenica, I

17 didn't see either Serbs or Muslims. I didn't see any inhabitants. It was

18 deserted. There was no one we saw or came across.

19 Q. How long did you stay in Srebrenica?

20 A. We didn't stay at all. We just passed through.

21 Q. You didn't park the APC to maybe visit your apartment?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Could you please tell us about what time it was when you arrived

24 in Srebrenica and you were going through it, if you recall.

25 A. Well, it was maybe 17 or 1800 hours in the afternoon.

Page 9236

1 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us, from there, where did

2 you go?

3 A. On the road to Srebrenica, we had another breakdown of the

4 transporter. Apart from all the other things I mentioned that were out of

5 order, our caterpillar track wheel broke. We couldn't replace it. The

6 caterpillar wheel would often come off, not to mention having to add water

7 to the engine. So we continued on to the car repair shop called Vihor.

8 Q. All right. Now Vihor is in Bratunac, is it not?

9 A. Yes, yes, in Bratunac.

10 Q. Could you please describe to us the route that you took once you

11 left Srebrenica to get to Bratunac. What route did you take?

12 A. I'll be happy to tell you. Coming out of Srebrenica from the

13 direction of Jadar, there is a football stadium belonging to the Guber

14 football club. When we arrived there, there were soldiers there, and they

15 told us that General Mladic had forbidden any military or soldiers from

16 entering Potocari. Then we took a circuitous route towards the Sase mine,

17 the so-called zero, that's the crossroads where the town cemetery is, via

18 Zalazje, Gradina, that's the iron and zinc mine, and Bjlovac, and so we

19 arrived at the Vihor garage in Bratunac. And it was night. It was

20 sometime around 2300 hours because we couldn't move fast because of all

21 the things that were wrong with the transporter.

22 Q. Did you recognise the soldiers that had told you that

23 General Mladic had given orders that no one was to go to Potocari from

24 that direction?

25 A. No, no, I didn't.

Page 9237

1 Q. Do you know whether they were from the Bratunac Brigade?

2 A. They weren't from the Bratunac Brigade because the Bratunac

3 Brigade was relatively small. And we all knew each other more or less.

4 Not all of us but over half. I would recognise over half of them. And I

5 believe they were not from the Bratunac Brigade.

6 Q. All right. Now, when you got to -- when you got to Vihor, what

7 did you do? That is, in Bratunac.

8 A. Yes. As it was night, we weren't able to leave the vehicle in the

9 repair shop, so we drove it to the centre of Bratunac where there were

10 some logistics storehouses with logistics equipment or I don't know,

11 quartermaster goods or something like that. But there were some guards

12 looking after the warehouse, so we stayed until the early hours of the

13 morning in the warehouse by the health centre in Bratunac together with

14 the guards there who were on duty. We slept through the night. And when

15 we parted, we agreed that the driver, as he drove the APC, should drive it

16 off to Vihor to be repaired there and to report it, to report the faults

17 that had occurred on the APC. And that's what he did in the morning

18 hours.

19 Q. All right. Let me stop you here for one second. This place where

20 you say there was some sort of a logistics location, I take it that was

21 for the Bratunac Brigade?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Could you please tell us where that is located.

24 A. In the centre of Bratunac by the health centre. It's an old

25 building. It used to be a warehouse, but I don't know what it stored.

Page 9238

1 Q. And is that where one would also pick up petrol?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, if that was the 12th of July, could you please tell us...

4 If that was the 12th of July, could you please tell us what you

5 did on the 13th of July 1995.

6 A. On the 13th of July, the driver, as I've already said, drove the

7 APC off to Vihor, and he probably left his telephone number where he could

8 be contacted once the vehicle had been repaired. At around noon, at

9 around 12.00 - well, I don't know the exact time, but anyway,

10 thereabouts - allegedly, and I put this in quotation marks, they allegedly

11 repaired the vehicle, but all they actually did was to replace the main

12 wheel on the transporter and added some more fuel into the connection

13 system. So into the gears. So they said that the vehicle had been

14 repaired and that they could come and pick it up. Once the vehicle had

15 been picked up, I don't know who the driver contacted, but he called us up

16 individually, the members of the APC crew, and told us that the APC was

17 ready and that we should be ready, too, to come back to the place we had

18 left it the night before and to set off from there, once again, for

19 Srebrenica, to join our unit.

20 Q. Let me stop you here. Could you please tell us --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you please tell us who had given this order or instruction

23 for you and the crew to head back to Srebrenica, if you know.

24 A. The driver, and he had ordered -- he had received orders from

25 someone who said was the chief. Now, who that was, who represented

Page 9239

1 himself as being the chief or head, I really can't say.

2 Q. All right. Didn't you ask him concretely who the person was?

3 A. Yes. And he said "the boss." Now, who the boss was, I really

4 don't know.

5 Q. All right. Did you at that point contact your commander, your

6 immediate commander Zekic, to see whether he had been the one --

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was there a reason why you didn't contact him?

9 A. Well, as I've already stressed, the communications system on the

10 APC was never operational. We didn't have one.

11 Q. All right. What about commander -- Colonel Blagojevic. Since you

12 were in Bratunac, a short walk from Vihor to the command post, right, did

13 you go there, track down -- to try to track down Colonel Blagojevic to see

14 whether it had been him and perhaps get even more complete orders other

15 than to just go to Srebrenica?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was there a reason why you didn't make that effort, sir, since you

18 were, after all, the komandir of this unit?

19 A. Well, I didn't go into the command, into the headquarters. And I

20 think that the repair shop and the people in charge of repairing the

21 military vehicles contacted the offices and the command once the vehicle

22 had been repaired. It was their duty to inform the command that the

23 vehicle had been repaired. So I didn't check that out myself.

24 Q. Okay. But -- all right. Let me just get back to my question

25 because I just want to make sure that we cover this point. I'm not asking

Page 9240

1 whether you went to the command; I'm asking you why you didn't go to the

2 command. Why didn't you take -- make that effort to speak with, or at

3 least make an attempt to, to speak with Colonel Blagojevic to get concrete

4 instructions since, after all, you couldn't reach Zekic?

5 A. Well, I thought that the person who said to the driver he had

6 received orders from the boss, that it was one of the officers on the

7 command staff of the Bratunac Brigade. So that was the reason I didn't go

8 up there myself to check this out.

9 Q. All right. Now, did you carry out this order that had been passed

10 on to you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please tell us, if you recall, about what time it would

13 have been that you set off toward Srebrenica from Bratunac on that

14 particular day, that is, July 13th, 1995.

15 A. Well, I don't know exactly what the time was. I do know that we

16 passed through during the day. Might have been 12.00, 1.00, during the

17 day. But I don't know the exact time when we passed through Potocari.

18 Q. All right. Could you please tell us where you ultimately ended up

19 on that particular day.

20 A. Yes. We ended up at Bojna, above Srebrenica. It's a small hill

21 and a valley. And we found our 3rd Battalion up there.

22 Q. And is that the location that you had been told to go to?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please tell us if you recall about what time you would

25 have reached that location.

Page 9241

1 A. Well, it might have been around 6.00, 1800 hours, 1900 hours,

2 thereabouts.

3 Q. Could you please tell us what route you took from Bratunac to go

4 to that area.

5 A. We went via Potocari. There was no other place directly into

6 Srebrenica, along the asphalt road.

7 Q. Could you please tell us why it is that you chose to go through

8 that route particularly in light of what you had learned the day before;

9 that is, coming from the opposite direction, that you were not to go

10 through Potocari pursuant to General Mladic's orders?

11 A. Well, I've already said that the driver, the person who said he

12 was the boss said that the road was free through Potocari, that you could

13 pass through it, and that we shouldn't go to Sase because it would require

14 much more fuel because it's three times as long, that route, than it's via

15 Potocari and there was free passage that way. And we didn't know what was

16 going on in Potocari at all. We thought that the road was pass -- that

17 there was free passage through the whole line.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Karnavas, please.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: We have about five minutes left before our break,

20 and perhaps we could show you this map, what has been marked for

21 identification purposes as D153.

22 Q. And I will walk you through this map -- or you're going to walk us

23 through it, actually. And there's a pointer there for you.

24 A. The monitor isn't working.

25 Q. Hopefully it will. Is it working now?

Page 9242

1 A. No, it isn't.

2 Q. Well, that's rather unusual.

3 Okay, now it's working, I'm told. Okay.

4 Now, if we could get the map over just a little bit. All right,

5 First of all -- right there. Do you recognise this document that has been

6 marked for identification purposes as D153?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what is this, sir?

9 A. It's a map which I drew and the road, the route we took on the

10 12th from Pribicevac to Bratunac. And the next part of the route, from

11 Bratunac to Potocari to Bojna.

12 Q. All right. We're going to go step by step. First, do you see

13 your signature on this?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And there is a date as well, is there not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Now, if we could walk through the map, if you could just

18 tell us: Where is Pribicevac?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: We may need to move it up a little bit for those

20 who are watching. Okay.

21 Q. And I believe there's an X there. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you please tell us the route that you took on July 12th,

24 1995, when you went from Pribicevac and you were heading to Srebrenica

25 pursuant to General Mladic's orders.

Page 9243

1 A. Yes, as I've indicated with a cross here, I marked it with a

2 cross, this is the Pribicevac elevation point. Then I said we took the

3 route, this route. It is a macadamised road, Bukova Glava, Javor, an

4 elevation point above the meadow. We didn't go down to Zelani Jadar, and

5 I didn't indicate that either on the map. We went across the field or

6 meadow, here, and then went down on to the asphalt road, Jadar-Srebrenica,

7 and took that route as I have indicated on the map.

8 Q. What is the 1 that's located there?

9 A. Srebrenica.

10 Q. Okay. And from Srebrenica on the 12th, you said you went to

11 Bratunac, to Vihor. What route did you take from Srebrenica?

12 A. We took this route, a road towards the zinc and lead mine towards

13 Sase at the exit towards Srebrenica. We took the right fork of the road

14 across Zalazje, Gradina, Biljaca, Bjlovac, Voljevica, and reached

15 Bratunac. And that's the point that I have marked with a number 2.

16 Q. All right. Now, the following day, on July 13th, 1995, could you

17 please show us the direction that you took, the route that you took, to go

18 to the location in Srebrenica where you had been instructed once again to

19 do so.

20 A. So, we moved from Bratunac across Potocari, that's the shortest

21 route, via Potocari, and reached our destination point here that I marked,

22 number 3, Bojna. It is the hill above Srebrenica which is where we were

23 located.

24 Q. All right. And just one last question before we take a break:

25 Could you please tell us the difference in distance between the route that

Page 9244

1 you took on the 12th from, say, Srebrenica to Bratunac, versus the route

2 that you took on the 13th from Bratunac to Bojna, which is by Srebrenica.

3 What's the distance difference if there is any?

4 A. Well, you can see that. It's obvious. On the 12th, you can see

5 that we covered two and a half times, a two and half time longer route

6 from Pribicevac to Bratunac than on our return journey from Bratunac to

7 Bojna. You can see that very easily here. You can calculate it. But I'm

8 sure it's two and a half times longer, that route, compared to the route

9 we took on the 12th, or rather the 13th, when we returned. Because look,

10 Pribicevac goes this way, so this is shorter. Srebrenica-Bratunac, this

11 way is much shorter than going round about taking that byroad.

12 Q. Just one last question: Is there a difference in the quality of

13 the road?

14 A. Yes, of course.

15 Q. Could you just briefly tell us what's the difference between the

16 road that you took on the 12th versus the road that you took on the 13th.

17 A. The road on the 12th, I'm just saying directly now from Srebrenica

18 towards Bratunac, that road was a narrow road. The surface damaged quite

19 a bit because underneath that road through Zalazje and Sase was where the

20 pits were of the mine. And the road has sunk in certain places. Now, the

21 road from Bratunac towards Srebrenica via Potocari is a much broader road,

22 much wider, it's straighter. And without these pits and depressions,

23 without this sunken -- these sunken parts. So that's the difference.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you very much. And just for the record, the

25 gentleman, again, was referring to what has been marked for identification

Page 9245

1 purposes as D153, and he traced his route starting with the X, 1 being

2 Srebrenica, 2 being Bratunac.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pribicevac.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: 2 being Bratunac, that would be July 12th then,

5 from 2 to 3 July 13th.

6 Thank you. Perhaps this may be a good time, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas. We are on the 13th of July 1995.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. Sir, could you please tell us, when you got to that location which

13 is marked on the map as 3, and I'm referring to D153 for identification,

14 could you please tell us how long you were at that location.

15 A. About 15 to 20 days.

16 Q. During that 15- or 20-day period, did you go anywhere?

17 A. No. Except to go home and have a bath. But the vehicle did not

18 move.

19 Q. All right. Were you asked to search any terrain while you were

20 there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, I want to show you a part of a video which has been admitted

23 into evidence as P21.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I believe we can see it. You can see it a couple

25 of times.

Page 9246

1 [Videoclip played]

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Stop right there.

3 Q. Do you see yourself anywhere in this video, in this frozen frame?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. And if we could get a little bit closer, just an inch

6 or two. All right.

7 Who are you in the picture?

8 A. The one with the cigarette in front.

9 Q. All right. And I take it to your -- as we are looking at this

10 frame, the person to your right has a beard and a cap on. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could play a little bit more of this video,

13 please.

14 [Videoclip played]

15 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could just back up a little bit, please. And

16 I apologise to the technicians. Right here.

17 Q. Now, in this frame of P21, we see what looks something like a

18 tube. Do you recognise that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please tell us what that is.

21 A. This is a gun barrel.

22 Q. Now, is that for the Browning?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What is that for?

25 A. Those are the two guns I mentioned. One is on the right-hand

Page 9247

1 side. The ones I said were out of order. These were artillery pieces on

2 the transporter.

3 Q. All right. The individuals, by the way, that we've seen on

4 transporter, do you recognise them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you please tell us who they are.

7 A. The one in the foreground now is Vidoje Vasic.

8 Q. All right. And we see some -- okay.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: If we go back --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's me.


12 Q. Okay. The person with the cap is who?

13 A. That's Ratko Zivanovic, also known as Kurjak.

14 Q. What about this gentleman with --

15 A. This is Goran Zekic.

16 Q. Okay. And what about this individual? Is he with your unit as

17 well, the one right at the bottom, right below Goran Zekic?

18 A. This photograph is unclear, but no, he's not. I cannot identify

19 him.

20 Q. And now we see --

21 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could stop just for a second. If we could

22 move back just a little bit first.

23 Q. In front of Zekic, we see that there is a barrel. What is that

24 from?

25 A. In front of Zekic is the Browning, the barrel of the Browning.

Page 9248

1 Q. All right. Now, do you recognise any other individuals by name?

2 A. I recognise the man next to the gun.

3 Q. All right. And is that the individual with the cigarette in his

4 mouth?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And what is his name, sir?

7 A. Dragoljub Jankovic.

8 Q. All right. Now, were all these men with your unit?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could go a bit, if we could continue with the

13 film.

14 [Videoclip played]

15 MR. KARNAVAS: We could stop right there.

16 Q. Is that your vehicle?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could continue. If we could stop for a

19 second.

20 Q. Now, this vehicle here with the launchers on it, was that in front

21 of you or is that behind you?

22 A. Not in front of us. If it was behind us, I couldn't see it

23 because of the Browning that was there.

24 Q. So did you notice it when you were there?

25 A. No.

Page 9249

1 Q. Okay. Now, I want to read a passage from the Butler report and

2 see if you could help us out here. And I'm referring to -- at this

3 moment, the actual number is escaping me of this exhibit. But I'm

4 referring to 5.21. It's on page 44 of his revised narrative of 1 November

5 2002. It states that, and I'll read it, it's a short passage. It says:

6 "Analysis of the Petrovic video provides further evidence of Bratunac

7 Brigade elements in Potocari on 13 July 1995. As buses were being loaded

8 with Muslim women and children, a Serb, OT-60 armour personnel carrier is

9 seen driving up and alongside the buses. The military registration (bort

10 number) of this vehicle is 10864. According to Drina Corps technical

11 service documents dated 23 August 1995, that vehicle was assigned to the

12 command of the Bratunac Brigade." And there's a footnote there.

13 And then it goes on: "The vehicle is filmed remaining in an area

14 for approximately five minutes. And in one instance, an unidentified

15 Muslim male is seen talking to a Serb soldier riding on top of the

16 vehicle." And I just read from what has come into evidence as P358,

17 paragraph 5.22, page 44 of the Butler report.

18 My question, sir, is were you in Potocari on July 13th?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. And did you stay there for approximately five minutes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you please tell us why you were there, first of all.

23 A. As I stated previously, when the APC was partly repaired in

24 Bratunac, we were instructed to pass through Potocari because of the

25 length of the route compared to what was described in the previous report.

Page 9250

1 That's why we were told to go through Potocari, and that's how we came to

2 be in Potocari on the 13th of July.

3 Q. Now, when you were stopped there for five minutes or so, could you

4 please explain to us what the reason was. Why did you remain there for

5 five minutes?

6 A. Yes. I can explain it. The reason why we stopped was that on the

7 asphalt road, or rather on the plateau in front of the Feros factory,

8 there were many Muslims, women, children, elderly men, and also

9 military-able men. And we had to stop to give them time to get out of the

10 way, to get off the road surface.

11 Q. While you were there, sir, did you at any point in time order or

12 allow your men to point any weapons at any of the Muslim civilians that

13 were trying to get on to these buses?

14 A. No. If any weapon had been pointed at them, as the camera shows,

15 well, you wouldn't be able to see all of us peacefully smoking cigarettes.

16 You can see that if you look carefully at the shot of me, you will see

17 that the cigarette smoke is still hanging on -- the ash is still hanging

18 on the cigarette, that it hasn't fallen off.

19 Q. All right. Now, did you hang around there at all with your APC in

20 order to try to intimidate any of these Muslim women and children and men

21 who were trying to get on the buses at the time?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you recall whether any of your men harassed any of those Muslim

24 women, children, or men that were there as you were parked for that period

25 of time, five minutes waiting for them to get by?

Page 9251

1 A. No, because nobody left the vehicle.

2 Q. All right. Now, we know from Mr. Zekic, his statement to the OTP

3 dated 29 November 2001 and from the photograph that has come into evidence

4 as P22 where it features you smoking, that you were identified as early as

5 26 November 2001 by Mr. Eskic, and then by Zekic on 29 November 2001. We

6 also know that the report, the revised report was prepared on November 1

7 2002. Could you please tell us whether during that period, that 12-month

8 or 11-month period prior to Mr. Butler preparing his report, did anyone

9 from the Office of the Prosecution ever visit you to ask you what, if

10 anything, you were doing there on that particular day?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, where have you been living all this time, sir?

13 A. In Srebrenica.

14 Q. Now, do you move about openly, or are you in hiding so in the

15 event the Office of the Prosecution -- in the event they wanted to, they

16 were curious enough, interested enough, concerned enough to meet and speak

17 with you, would they have been able to find you?

18 A. At any time.

19 Q. Now, as a result of this particular video that has been shown on

20 television, has it not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Have you yourself had any problems?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you please tell us what those problems are.

25 A. Yes, it was very unpleasant. When I come across my fellow

Page 9252

1 citizens, Muslim returnees I grew up with or worked with in the same

2 enterprise for 20 years, they no longer greet me. They ignore me. On

3 every 10th or 11th day of the month, they visit their memorial centre and

4 as they are passing by they point their fingers at me. The donor funds

5 for the rebuilding of houses, well, I had two houses burnt down. My

6 apartment was devastated. But I have not received a penny or a brick to

7 rebuild my property and continue living normally. And I won't go on.

8 Q. Okay, thank you.

9 Now, when was the first time, other than on the 12th you told us

10 you drove through Srebrenica, when was the first time you returned to

11 Srebrenica?

12 A. On the 13th, on the way back from Bratunac. And as early as on

13 the 15th or 16th, I can't be precise as to the exact date, my wife

14 returned. And from time to time, I went there to restore the water supply

15 of Srebrenica. And she was cleaning out the apartment so that we could

16 move back to our own apartment from Bratunac.

17 Q. And that would have been July 1995?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Now, the Prosecution has been asking various witnesses if they are

20 aware that there were -- that according to UNMO reports, reports from the

21 UN Military Observers, assuming that they are correct, whether there were

22 rockets that were launched into the enclave on the 6th of July. Are you

23 aware of any rocket launchers -- rockets being launched into Srebrenica

24 from the position that you were?

25 A. No. Had any rockets been launched, there would be traces on the

Page 9253

1 buildings in Srebrenica or on the asphalt and I would have observed these

2 when I came back. I am still living in Srebrenica, but I have never found

3 or come across any traces of these rockets.

4 Q. Okay. I'm going to go step by step, because there's a series of

5 questions the Prosecution tends to ask.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Shin.

7 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, if the questions could just be asked

8 without the preface that the Prosecution asked a certain type of question.


10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not asking them. They're asking them. They're

11 relying on UNMO reports. I don't, I don't take -- believe that these

12 reports are accurate. The Prosecution tends to believe that they're

13 accurate. They're their questions, not mine.

14 JUDGE LIU: You may just quote that UNMO report, instead of

15 mentioning the Prosecution to this witness.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I don't have what part of the report they're

17 claiming that this came from because they just state, for instance,

18 yesterday was: Are you aware that UNMO also reported that seven rockets

19 were launched or were used by the Bosnian Serb Army of the 7th of July.

20 These are their questions, so I'm asking them. I can ask just the

21 question.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, just the question without mentioning anything

23 said by the Prosecution.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I just want to make sure that I'm not claiming that

25 this is accurate. That's why.

Page 9254

1 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no. We understand that.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

3 Q. What about the 7th of July? Are you aware if any rockets, seven

4 rockets in particular, were launched or were used by the Bosnian Serb Army

5 on that day? Are you aware of that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. Are you aware, according to the UN Military Observers

8 again, that on the 10th of July, it was reported that eight rockets were

9 fired in the direction of Srebrenica in the morning? From where you were

10 located, did you observe that?

11 A. I would certainly have observed them if they had been fired. But

12 they were not fired from that position.

13 Q. Okay. And then we're told that in the afternoon on the same day

14 that rockets - again, according to the UN Military Observers - were

15 launched into the town itself, into the town. Now, did you see that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When you drove through the town on the 13th, did you see any

18 evidence where rockets had hit the town of Srebrenica?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When you returned to Srebrenica, your wife returned and you had

21 these visits and you were assisting in -- with the water supply, did you

22 notice whether rockets had hit the town of Srebrenica?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And you've indicated that you have been living there --

25 A. Yes.

Page 9255

1 Q. Okay. And so since you have been living there, are you aware of

2 any construction that has been done to repair any damage caused by rockets

3 that had been fired into Srebrenica?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And I take it no one from the Office of the Prosecution has

6 contacted you to you could probably give them a tour of Srebrenica where

7 they can point out any damage done in Srebrenica as a result of these

8 rocket attacks?

9 A. No.

10 Q. All right. Now, we've heard testimony yesterday that the rocket

11 platoon of the Bratunac Brigade sent a vehicle up there to Pribicevac on

12 the 10th of July. When you were there, did you notice that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where was it located when you noticed it?

15 A. I was near the transporter.

16 Q. Okay. That's the APC.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How far was the APC to this truck with the launching equipment or

19 whatever you want to call it?

20 A. About 400 metres.

21 Q. All right. Now assuming rockets had been launched from that

22 vehicle, from the -- from your position where you were located, would you

23 have been able to see it and maybe even hear it?

24 A. Of course. It's a meadow.

25 Q. All right. And did you see and hear any rockets being launched

Page 9256

1 from that vehicle that had been sent from the rocket platoon of the

2 Bratunac Brigade on that particular day?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you a couple of other matters.

5 First, I want to show you what has been -- what has come into evidence as

6 D149. Could you please take a look at that, sir. Do you see it? Do you

7 recognise it?

8 Okay, now, just for the sake of going through this, it states here

9 that it's dated July 3, 1995. And we can see this is a request for

10 equipment and materiel. And at the bottom, we see the name of Dragoslav

11 Trisic. Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Now, obviously you know Mr. Trisic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, if we could look at the one column under number 1, and I

16 believe -- well, under number 1, it says "ammunition." And if we go down

17 this column, at least on the second item, it says: "12.7-millimetre

18 bullets, Browning, 10.000." Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are those the kind of bullets that your Browning takes?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were any issued to you on this particular day, 3 July 1995?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why not? 10.000 were issued. How could -- how do you know that

25 none of them came your way?

Page 9257

1 A. Because I didn't request a single bullet. We had enough

2 ammunition. And we didn't open fire anywhere. So we didn't need any

3 ammunition.

4 Q. All right. Now, under this column of ammunition, is there

5 anything else that would be relevant to the APC that you had?

6 A. No. Because we didn't request anything. We didn't require

7 anything for the transporter, so nothing was relevant here.

8 Q. Okay. Now, let me show you another document dated 12 July 1995,

9 again from Mr. Trisic. And this has been admitted into evidence as D131.

10 If you could please look at it. And for the sake of time, this is titled

11 "consumption of materiel and equipment," and it's submitted to the Drina

12 Corps.

13 Do you see Mr. Trisic's name at the bottom?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, if we go down the list and we go to number 3, it says

16 "bullets, 12.7-millimetre Browning." And here it says 2.850 pieces. So

17 assuming this report is correct, it would appear that from the 10th to the

18 12th of July, 2.850 pieces or bullets of this calibre were consumed by the

19 Bratunac Brigade.

20 My question is, does this figure reflect the bullets that would

21 have been consumed or had been consumed by your unit?

22 A. I am claiming before this Honourable Chamber, I hold myself

23 morally and criminally responsible, that not a single bullet was fired

24 with that Browing, and I'm ready to stand trial if necessary for that.

25 Q. All right. That won't be necessary. But thank you.

Page 9258

1 Now, sir, do you know Mr. Blagojevic?

2 A. I know him by sight, but I didn't have occasion to talk to him.

3 Q. How much contact did you have with Mr. Blagojevic during those

4 days; that is, from July 6th to onwards, say, the end of July? How much

5 contact did you have with him?

6 A. Not a single one.

7 Q. Did you by any chance go off to Zepa?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. Is there a particular reason, sir, that you wanted to

10 come and testify in this particular court?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please tell us what that reason is.

13 A. I can tell you. One of the most important reasons is that I

14 wanted this Tribunal to know the truth about this transporter or APC which

15 absolutely did not take part in any combat activities between the 3rd of

16 August 1993 until the signing of the Dayton Accords.

17 A second reason is the broadcasting, and I consider this an abuse

18 of myself, the fact that I was shown on this APC because this resulted in

19 a great deal of unpleasantness for me which I have described a moment ago.

20 And that is why I wanted to come to this Tribunal, to show my face, and to

21 tell the truth about this APC.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Tanasijevic, for your very honest

23 answers. And I would appreciate it if you would be as candid and honest

24 with the Prosecution and with the Court, and perhaps even with Mr. Lukic,

25 as you have been with me. Thank you very much.

Page 9259

1 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 Mr. Lukic, do you have any questions to this witness?

4 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. We don't have any questions for this

5 witness.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 Any cross? Yes, Mr. Shin.

8 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Shin:

10 Q. Good morning, sir.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. I'd like to ask you, first, about this incident that you talked

13 about on either the 8th or 9th or 9th or 10th of July involving some

14 troops moving towards your lines. Now, you said that you spoke to

15 General Krstic at that point because he was in the vicinity. Do you

16 remember that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, you'd also explained that your commanding officer was the --

19 was Mr. Dragan Zekic. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it possible that his first name is actually Dragomir and not

22 Dragan?

23 A. Dragomir is his real name. But we called him Dragan.

24 Q. Okay, thank you.

25 You also testify that he was your immediate commanding officer.

Page 9260

1 He was the one, therefore, that you would receive orders from?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, the position where you were at, at about the time of that

4 incident, was a position that you had been holding since March of 1995; is

5 that correct, when you moved away from Kula?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. And you testify that you spoke to General Krstic, not your

8 commanding officer, because you did not know where the headquarters of the

9 battalion was. Is that correct?

10 A. Correct, yes.

11 Q. So at that time, you did not know where Major Zekic's headquarters

12 was?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Even though he was your immediate commanding officer?

15 A. I didn't know.

16 Q. I'd like to ask you now about the 12th of July 1995. But before I

17 do that, I'd like to ask you maybe a couple preliminary questions here.

18 From Pribicevac -- all right, let me start by this. You are from this

19 area, as you explained to us, and you know the roads in that area well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. From Pribicevac to, let's say, to Bratunac, now, how

22 long would it take to drive if you went through Jadar, Srebrenica,

23 Potocari, up to Bratunac? How long would that take to drive if you're in,

24 say, a Lada Niva?

25 A. Just a moment, please. Let me work out the number of kilometres

Page 9261

1 it is. You would need perhaps an hour because there's some dirt road,

2 macadam road. From Bratunac to Pribicevac, it would take about an hour.

3 Q. And a Lada would be the type of vehicle that would handle dirt

4 roads?

5 A. Yes, yes. But these are roads leading through woods which are not

6 very good going from Jadar to Pribicevac.

7 Q. Now, from Pribicevac, there is also another way to Bratunac, not

8 going through Jadar but going through Sase; is that correct? Going

9 through Sase and Bjlovac on to Bratunac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, again, in a Lada Niva, how long would it take to drive that

12 route?

13 A. A little less. Perhaps 20 minutes less than taking the other

14 route because from Sase to Pribicevac, if you take that road, it has just

15 been opened up, the road. Only the earth has been leveled, and there's

16 quite a lot of macadam, too.

17 Q. My question is at the state of the roads, let's say, in July 1995,

18 how long would it take to drive from Pribicevac to Bratunac going through

19 Sase and Bjlovac and not going through Jadar, to be clear? If you can

20 remember.

21 A. Around an hour, as I said. More or less the same.

22 Q. What -- do you recall what I mean it was that you first saw

23 General Mladic as you say in Pribicevac on the 12th of July?

24 A. It may have been about 1.00 or 2.00 p.m.

25 Q. When you met him, did you -- before then or after, did you learn

Page 9262

1 that he had arrived any time earlier than when you first saw him?

2 A. I heard from the people in the rear when I went to fetch lunch

3 that he was somewhere there, but I didn't see him.

4 Q. And when was that that you heard this? This was before you saw

5 him?

6 A. Around the 8th or the 9th.

7 Q. I'm just asking about the 12th of July. Did you hear on the 12th

8 of July that he had arrived at some particular time before you saw him?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you actually see him pull up into Pribicevac in a vehicle?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What type of vehicle was it?

13 A. A military jeep.

14 Q. Was he alone or was he with others?

15 A. He had four escorts with him.

16 Q. Was there anyone else, any other officers?

17 A. No. On that occasion, no.

18 Q. Okay. Now, your battalion is the 3rd Battalion. That was

19 stationed in the Pribicevac area at the time of, let's say, the 10th of

20 July. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On the 11th of July, are you aware that that battalion -- or

23 soldiers from that battalion moved from that position?

24 A. No, because I was separated. I was in a separate position, so I

25 didn't know what was going on.

Page 9263

1 Q. So you were not aware then that on the 11th of July, troops in

2 that battalion moved down towards Srebrenica?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Were you given any orders on the 11th of July?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So you weren't given any orders even to protect Pribicevac?

7 A. No. I didn't receive anything. But this was implied, the very

8 fact that we were there meant that.

9 Q. Now, you saw the videotape which was Prosecution Exhibit P21. And

10 you mentioned that you had -- you were there in that area for five

11 minutes. Right? You agree with that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see any men being separated from that group of people in

14 front of you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You did mention that you saw women, children, as well as men in

17 that group. Right?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. It's the Prosecution's position that those men in that group were

20 later executed. Do you know anything about that?

21 A. I heard later on, but I don't know anything in particular.

22 Q. Just one final area here. Pribicevac is at an elevation compared

23 to some of the areas around it. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And Srebrenica is, of course, at a lower elevation. That's

Page 9264

1 correct, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And from Pribicevac, you can see Srebrenica from there; that's one

4 of the reasons that's an important place for the military to hold. Isn't

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You testify that there was an order from the Main Staff, the

8 General Staff, that "not a single bullet was to be fired in the protected

9 area of Srebrenica." Do you know if those orders were ever violated?

10 A. From the APC, no. But as for the other lines, I don't know.

11 Q. And when you say "from the APC," you mean your own APC?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 MR. SHIN: We have no further questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Any redirect?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

18 Mr. Karnavas.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. Just, I believe it's D153, which

20 is the map that was marked by this witness.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Are there any objections? Mr. Shin.

22 MR. SHIN: No, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. This document D153 is admitted into the

24 evidence.

25 Are there any documents to tender on your part, Mr. Shin?

Page 9265

1 MR. SHIN: No, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

4 your evidence. We appreciate it very much.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.

6 JUDGE LIU: The usher will show you out of the room, and we wish

7 you a pleasant journey back home.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I didn't say anything at the time,

12 but if -- I would appreciate it in questioning witnesses if counsel, we

13 understand he's putting the Prosecution on trial and their investigation

14 on trial, but in that regard there is no need to suggest to the witness

15 that the Prosecution does not care about speaking to him or does not care

16 about the issue. And there's also this implication that there is

17 something else insidious against this man going on. That's just not

18 necessary. It happens every day. And yes, we are getting used to it.

19 But it is sowing discontent among the community, and it's really not

20 necessary. As I think the Trial Chamber is aware, the evidence regarding

21 this APC came in from Mr. Butler. This witness agreed with Mr. Butler.

22 So I can understand that, all the reasons, and they were good reasons for

23 Mr. Karnavas to put on this witness and other evidence, but to suggest

24 that the Prosecutor to this witness doesn't care or is -- it's really not

25 necessary. And as I say, I just wanted to bring that up at this point.

Page 9266

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. Well, I take exception to the Prosecution's

3 contention that it's not necessary. One, because Butler -- it's in

4 Butler's report; two, these people are available; three, they have had

5 seven years to investigate this case. And if they're going to make

6 assumptions that this APC was involved in any way, then at least they

7 should duly investigate their case. And this man has suffered as a result

8 of this video being played over and over and over again because the

9 assumption is that he was there doing something nefarious. And if the

10 Prosecution wanted to be fair with him, they could have made a public

11 announcement that that APC had nothing to do in Potocari on July 13th

12 other than going through. They never gave the man a fair chance. And I

13 think I'm perfectly -- it's a perfectly legitimate question to say: If

14 they wanted to meet with you, were you there or were you in hiding?

15 Because we're able to find him.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, again, if Mr. Karnavas -- no

18 problem with him asking this witness if he was interviewed by the

19 Prosecution or not. If he wants to take on the investigation, I have no

20 problem with that. Telling a witness that the Prosecution doesn't care

21 and implying like he just has that the Prosecution has some insidious

22 motivation is sowing discontent. What Mr. Karnavas appears to be doing,

23 and I don't know if he's doing it on purpose, but he's trying -- he is

24 building up something that the Prosecution's case is not, and then

25 knocking it down.

Page 9267

1 Our evidence related to this APC came from Mr. Butler. Now, this

2 evidence, if I would argue it, which I will briefly argue in response,

3 shows that the Bratunac Brigade like Mr. Butler was there, what it had

4 eyes and ears and it was present and that it was there and this vehicle

5 and its guns were there and it was around the situation. This is the

6 Prosecution's evidence.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, please do not go into the

8 substance of the case.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, he has accused me of suggesting this

10 man is a war criminal. And this man will take that back to Bratunac with

11 him and take his view of the ICTY. I don't know if this man is a war

12 criminal. All I know he was in Potocari with this APC with its guns all

13 around these people that were separated at the time and were murdered.

14 And that's what we asked him about, and that's what he said. And the

15 innuendo and the implication that we're calling him a war criminal is

16 insulting and it's really unnecessary. And that's my point. Let's save

17 the argument. But that's the point here. And this is going on and on and

18 on, this kind of thing. And I just can't be quiet forever.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think this debate has been going on ever since

20 the start of the Defence case, and we have spent much time on it, almost

21 with every witness. But here, you know, I believe that the parties

22 calling the witness to assist the Chamber to understand the situation

23 there, but not to blame the other parties unless - unless - you've found

24 very substantial violations of the Rules of Procedure. I hope in the

25 future, both parties will bear that in mind in their direct- and

Page 9268

1 cross-examinations. And if there's no absolute necessity, do not directly

2 mention the other party at all because we have all the reports, we have

3 all the evidence there. You might cite that report and do not disclose or

4 speculate what's the case of the other party.

5 Yes, since we still have about 17 minutes, could we have another

6 witness.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President. He is ready. This will be our

8 last witness for the week. Unfortunately, we were not able to bring

9 anyone else.

10 JUDGE LIU: Is it possible for us to finish this witness this

11 morning?

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Absolutely. Absolutely.

13 JUDGE LIU: Absolutely.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Absolutely.

15 JUDGE LIU: May I ask you how long you'll take for the direct?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I think it's -- in light of the modifications that

17 I will make pursuant to the last order by the Court, I think about 25

18 minutes.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't think that they will take much.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

25 accordance with the paper.

Page 9269

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

4 Yes, Mr. Karnavas, the witness is yours.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

9 Q. Good morning, sir.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Could you tell us your name.

12 A. Cvijetin Stevic?

13 Q. Would you please tell us your last name letter by letter.

14 A. S-t-e-v-i-c.

15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Stevic, where are you from?

16 A. From Bratunac.

17 Q. Where did you grow up?

18 A. In Bratunac.

19 Q. Where do you currently live?

20 A. In Bratunac.

21 Q. Now, and currently, what do you do?

22 A. I work in a transport company for passenger transportation as a

23 reviser, an auditor.

24 Q. All right. Now, in 1992, were you mobilised?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9270

1 Q. Could you please tell us in which -- well, tell us when you were

2 actually mobilised.

3 A. In April 1992.

4 Q. And I take it you had, sir, prior to that time, when you were a

5 young man -- or I should say younger, you had served your JNA service?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, when you were mobilised in 1992, could you please tell us

8 what you were doing.

9 A. I was providing security around the health centre building.

10 Q. Now, I want to fast-forward to 1995, and in particular the month

11 of July 1995. Okay?

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. Could you please tell us, in July of 1995, whether you were with

14 the Bratunac Brigade.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please tell us in which unit you were serving.

17 A. In the 2nd Battalion, 2nd company.

18 Q. Could you please tell us how long had you been in the 2nd Company

19 of the 2nd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade?

20 A. Since March 1993, from March 1993 until the end. I was in that

21 company until the end.

22 Q. All right. And the end would have been past July 1995?

23 A. Srebrenica, yes.

24 Q. Could you please tell us where you were located during that

25 period, that is, your company, the 2nd Company of the 2nd Battalion of the

Page 9271

1 Bratunac Brigade?

2 A. I was at the Zuti Most or yellow bridge.

3 Q. Can you please tell us for how long the 2nd Company of the 2nd

4 Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade had been located at the Zuti Most?

5 A. I found them there in March 1993. They were there already.

6 Q. From March 1993 to July 1995, could you please tell us how much

7 ground the 2nd Company of the 2nd Battalion had gained? How far had you

8 advanced towards the enemy lines?

9 A. Not a metre.

10 Q. And why is that?

11 A. In front of us, we had the Dutch Battalion. They were about a

12 hundred metres away.

13 Q. While you were there, your company, do you know how often you

14 would engage the Muslim forces or even the Dutch Battalion?

15 A. There was no engagement at all.

16 Q. You were never ordered to attack the Muslim forces from there?

17 A. Never.

18 Q. What about the Dutch? Were you ever ordered, your company in

19 particular, to attack the Dutch Battalion and maybe even to capture their

20 positions?

21 A. Never.

22 Q. All right. Now, I want to focus your attention to the period when

23 the events around Srebrenica occurred. Okay?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I'm going to give you a couple of dates as reference points,

Page 9272

1 the first being July 6th, which is undisputed as when the events occurred,

2 and July 11th when Srebrenica fell.

3 First of all, prior to July 6th, were you given any particular

4 orders or instructions that events were about to commence concerning

5 Srebrenica?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were you, sir, at that point in time on the line?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When was it that you first learned that something was happening

10 with respect to Srebrenica?

11 A. On the 11th.

12 Q. All right. Well, before the 11th, had you heard any fighting

13 going on?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you hear any - any attacks going on from the 3rd Battalion or

16 1st Battalion, 4th --

17 A. No.

18 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us whether you did --

19 whether your company did anything on July 6th?

20 A. No.

21 Q. What about July 7th?

22 A. No, we didn't.

23 Q. What about July 8th?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What about July 9th?

Page 9273

1 A. No.

2 Q. What about July 10th?

3 A. No.

4 Q. July 11th, surely that must have been -- something must have

5 happened.

6 A. We didn't go anywhere from our trenches.

7 Q. All right. During that period of time, did you go home at least,

8 see the family, take a rest?

9 A. No, we didn't. No.

10 Q. All right. On the 11th, did you learn that Srebrenica had fallen?

11 A. I saw troops passing by in the direction of Srebrenica. But I

12 didn't know what was going on.

13 Q. Okay. Where were they coming from and where were they heading

14 towards?

15 A. They were going towards Srebrenica.

16 Q. So they would have been coming from the direction of Bratunac?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recognise those troops?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did any of them come by the company to greet, maybe introduce

21 themselves?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. Did anyone, if you recall, inform you what they were there for?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Now, on the 11th, how is it that you learned that

Page 9274

1 Srebrenica had fallen?

2 A. Soldiers were coming back from the direction of Srebrenica, and

3 they said that Srebrenica had fallen.

4 Q. All right. Well, since Srebrenica had fallen, were you given any

5 orders at that point in time to maybe leave your positions?

6 A. No.

7 Q. On July 11th, did you and your company leave your positions that

8 you've held for the last couple of years, since you been with the --

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. Now, what about the 12th? The next day, the day after

11 Srebrenica has fallen, did you receive any orders on that particular day?

12 A. We received orders to set out in the direction of Budak.

13 Q. All right. Now, we're going to get to the map at some point. But

14 could you please tell us the distance from your locations where the 2nd

15 Company was located to Budak. How many kilometres are we talking about?

16 A. About 2 kilometres.

17 Q. And how would you get there from your position?

18 A. On foot.

19 Q. What is the road like?

20 A. It's an asphalt road.

21 Q. All the way up to Budak?

22 A. A macadamised road, a dirt road for Budak.

23 Q. From your position, in which direction would you have to go to go

24 to Budak, towards Bratunac or in the other direction towards Potocari and

25 Srebrenica?

Page 9275

1 A. Towards Potocari.

2 Q. And does that particular road take you all the way to Budak, or do

3 you need to veer off anywhere?

4 A. We have to veer off.

5 Q. On which side, the left side of the road heading towards

6 Srebrenica, or the right side?

7 A. The right side.

8 Q. To your recollection, at what point on the road do you veer off?

9 How far do you have to go towards Srebrenica before you veer off to head

10 towards Budak?

11 A. Less than 2 kilometres.

12 Q. All right. Well, we know that Potocari is ahead, and we know that

13 there's some industrial sites, buildings. Could you please tell us, to

14 your recollection, about where you would be on that road so you can veer

15 off on the right to head towards Budak?

16 A. From the generator factory.

17 Q. Which is --

18 A. The Feros battery factory.

19 Q. And that's usually referred to as the akumulator?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. Now, do you recall about what time on the day did you

22 receive instructions or orders to go to Budak?

23 A. Around noon. Around 12.00.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you recall from whom you received this order?

25 A. From the squad leader, the komandir.

Page 9276

1 Q. Okay. And who -- to your understanding, who was your komandir at

2 the time?

3 A. The deputy company komandir was Zoran Cvjetinovic.

4 Q. Now, did you hear this order directly from him, or was the order

5 passed from him to others, and that's when you heard of it?

6 A. He told others, and then we set out.

7 Q. All right. Do you know from whom he had received that order?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you set off at some point to go to Budak?

10 A. Yes, we did. We took the road, the asphalt road.

11 Q. All right. Now, before setting off to go to Budak, what sort of

12 preparations did you and the other men in the company make?

13 A. We received a cold meal, an uncooked meal, and nothing else.

14 Q. All right. No bread?

15 A. Yes, just bread and cans.

16 Q. All right. Now were you told the purpose for going to Budak?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please tell us what you were informed at that time the

19 purpose was.

20 A. To go to search the terrain in Budak.

21 Q. All right. Were you told how long you would be in Budak searching

22 the terrain?

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. All right. Now, before we get to Budak, and before you describe

25 to us how the terrain was searched to Budak, could you please tell us

Page 9277

1 whether you went directly from your position where the 2nd Company of the

2 2nd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade had been located for the past couple

3 of years, whether you went directly to Budak?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you stop anywhere on your way to Budak?

6 A. My company turned off near the battery factory, and I went on with

7 my friends to see whether there were any Bosniaks there that we knew.

8 Q. All right.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm kind of lost in time. Do we continue at this

10 point, Your Honour? I don't know -- or do we take a break.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, is this the right time?

12 MR. KARNAVAS: This would be a good time right here.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll take a break, and we'll resume at 12.30.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

18 Q. Mr. Stevic, we left off where you said that you and your friends

19 went to see whether there were any Bosniaks there that you knew. Could

20 you please tell us where it was that you went as the rest of the company

21 had turned up -- turned off towards Budak.

22 A. You mean in the direction of Potocari, that's where they went.

23 Q. Okay. But the company -- you indicated that the company went off,

24 took the turn towards Budak, and you and your friends, some of your

25 friends, went to see if there were any Bosniaks that you recognised. Do

Page 9278

1 you recall telling us that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you please tell us where you went to see if you can

4 recognise any of the Bosniaks?

5 A. Along the road toward Potocari, the asphalt road.

6 Q. Could you please tell us, how far did you go?

7 A. For about 200 metres.

8 Q. Could you please describe to us what you saw.

9 A. I saw buses, trucks, and people standing round the buses and

10 getting on.

11 Q. Did you recognise anyone while you were there?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Could you please tell us who it was that you recognised.

14 A. I recognised a driver, a colleague, Redzep Alic.

15 Q. And what was he doing?

16 A. He had set out toward the bus, he and his wife.

17 Q. Did you speak with the gentleman?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you please tell us what, if anything, he told you or what

20 you told him?

21 A. I went to say hello. I asked him how he was. He said he was all

22 right. And he said they were on their way to Kladanj.

23 Q. All right. Did you have any further exchanges with him?

24 A. No, because he was in a hurry to get on to the bus. So we just

25 said hello, and he went to get on the bus. He said they were going to

Page 9279

1 Kladanj.

2 Q. All right. Have you seen the gentleman since?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, where does he live?

5 A. He lives in Budak.

6 Q. Is he still living in Budak?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, how long were you in Potocari at that area, you and your

9 friends?

10 A. Ten to fifteen minutes at the most.

11 Q. What were you doing there?

12 A. Standing there.

13 Q. Had anyone given you permission, or had ordered you to go there?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Why did you go there since you been given orders to go to Budak?

16 A. Out of curiosity to see whether I could meet any old friends.

17 Q. And while you were there, did you at any point in time use your

18 weapon, point it at anyone?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were you instructed by anyone, either from the Bratunac Brigade or

21 anyone else, to assist in guarding the Muslims as they were getting on the

22 buses?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you do anything to terrorise them or to scare them to getting

25 on the buses?

Page 9280

1 A. No.

2 Q. What about your friends that were with you from the 2nd Company?

3 Did you notice whether they in any way used any intimidating tactics such

4 as the ones that I've suggested?

5 A. No. No.

6 Q. All right. Now, after that 10- or 15-minute period, what did you

7 do?

8 A. We went toward Budak.

9 Q. You say "we." Who are we speaking about?

10 A. My friends and I.

11 Q. How long did it take you timewise to get to Budak?

12 A. We arrived up there in about half an hour and met up with my

13 company.

14 Q. All right. Now, were they there at the time when you arrived in

15 Budak?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you inform your komandir, who was, I take it, the acting

18 komandir at the time that you not gone straight to Budak but rather had

19 gone to Potocari, out of curiosity?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When you went to Budak, could you please describe the manner in

22 which, the formation in which you went to Budak.

23 A. I didn't understand your question.

24 Q. Well, you indicated that you -- you had received orders to search

25 the terrain as you would go to Budak. Did you search the terrain?

Page 9281

1 A. No.

2 Q. Could you please tell us how, in what formation, you got to Budak,

3 you and your friends.

4 A. How can I describe it? The way sheep go when a shepherd is

5 driving them along. That's how we went, all together in a group.

6 Q. Did you stay on the road or did you walk through the woods to

7 search for anyone?

8 A. No. We walked along the road throughout.

9 Q. On the way to Budak, did you come across any Muslims, Bosniaks?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you see any dead bodies?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you see any abandoned weapons?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Could you please tell us for how long you were at Budak.

16 A. We rested up a bit, 10 or 15 minutes perhaps.

17 Q. And from there, where did you go?

18 A. Along the road to Pale.

19 Q. Could you please describe to us in which formation you went

20 towards Pale.

21 A. In a group. All together, along the road.

22 Q. Did you go off the road to search the terrain in any way?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you locate anyone on the way to Pale?

25 A. No.

Page 9282

1 Q. Did you come across any dead bodies?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you come across any abandoned weapons?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When you got to Pale, how long did you stay there?

6 A. We didn't stay long.

7 Q. All right. From there, did you continue on?

8 A. From Pale, we set out up the slope to the left toward Gornji

9 Potocari. And there, we were deployed into groups.

10 Q. All right. How long did it take you to go from Pale to Gornji

11 Potocari?

12 A. We didn't go down to Potocari. We stayed up on the hill. It took

13 us about an hour, or half an hour to an hour.

14 Q. Could you see Potocari from that location?

15 A. No. No.

16 Q. What were you doing up there?

17 A. Lying down.

18 Q. Were you given any particular tasks to do, anything?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. Did you search the terrain at least?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Could you please tell us for how long you were up there.

23 A. Two nights.

24 Q. And during the two days that you were there and the two nights,

25 did you come across any -- any Muslims?

Page 9283

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you take any prisoners while you were there?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you see any dead bodies or abandoned weapons while you were up

5 there?

6 A. No.

7 Q. After spending two nights there, where did you go?

8 A. We came back along the same road, to Zuti Most.

9 Q. And then what? Once you got there, what did you do?

10 A. Where?

11 Q. When you got back to Zuti Most, you said --

12 A. We went home. We went home.

13 Q. All right. Do you recall what your next task was; and if so, when

14 it was?

15 A. Two or three days later, we were called up to go to Bacuta.

16 Q. Can you please tell us where that is located.

17 A. That's above Gornji Potocari on the left-hand side in the

18 direction of Srebrenica. It's a hill and a village.

19 Q. Okay. And could you please tell us when you got there, what did

20 you do?

21 A. We sat around the whole time.

22 Q. When you say "sat around," did you search any part of that area?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you locate anyone or anything?

25 A. No.

Page 9284

1 Q. All right. And again, how long were you in that area?

2 A. For two days. My platoon, and then we went home for two days.

3 And two days later, we went up there again. So we would spend two days

4 there, and two days at home.

5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, I somehow lost the date because we heard

6 so many -- two days. Could you please, you know, ask a question about

7 approximately which day it is.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. If I could, Your Honour, go with the map, so

9 that way we could both use this as a reference point.

10 Q. Let me show you what has been marked for identification purposes

11 as 154, D154. And it's a...

12 Do you recognise this, sir?

13 A. Which sign?

14 Q. If you could look at -- first, I just want you to tell us whether

15 you identify this map. Do you recognise it, the map itself?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. Now, there is a signature there, is there not?

18 A. Mine.

19 Q. Okay. And there's a date as well, or at least a month and the

20 year. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. We don't have a date, but when did you write this in and sign it?

23 When did you sign your name to this document?

24 A. I signed it today.

25 Q. So that would be the 13th.

Page 9285

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, I want to go step by step. First of all, and I believe you

3 have marked it 1, 2, 3. The -- where you have marked the 1, could you

4 please tell us what that location is.

5 A. Zuti Most.

6 Q. And that would reflect the area where your company was located for

7 those two years. Correct?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. All right. And it was from this position that you left on July

10 12th.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, could you please tell us where you -- show us exactly where

13 you went on July 12th on the map. If you could trace that with us.

14 A. From Zuti Most, I went to Potocari, and then from there on to

15 Budak, Pale, and then we stayed here on this slope behind Pale. That was

16 our direction of movement.

17 Q. Okay. So number 3, where you are, where you have the number 3,

18 that would be the place where you ended up on the 12th of July. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And could you please tell us again how long were you at that

22 location.

23 A. For two nights.

24 Q. All right. So that would be the night of the 12th, the night of

25 the 13th, so if my math serves me right --

Page 9286

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- it would be the 14th that you left that location. Correct?

3 A. We left, yes.

4 Q. And from there, where did you go on July 14th?

5 A. We returned back to Zuti Most.

6 Q. And that was the same route?

7 A. Yes, along the same route.

8 Q. I don't recall whether I asked you. But on the way back, did you

9 come across any prisoners?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All right. So -- and how long would it have taken you to return

12 all the way back to Zuti Most and on to Bratunac?

13 A. Not long, because it's downhill, so it's easier to move.

14 Q. All right. Could you please tell us when you left again to take

15 up your next position. How many days were you in Bratunac?

16 A. Two days. I was at home for two days.

17 Q. Would that be the 14th and the 15th, and then leaving off on the

18 16th?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. All right. So then on the 16th, could you point, perhaps

21 even mark, where you were sent to.

22 A. Potocari, Bacuta.

23 Q. Could you circle that, please, sir, and put the number 4 there.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. And how long did you stay at that position?

Page 9287

1 A. For two days.

2 Q. All right. So that would be perhaps on the 18th when you left

3 that area?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. From there, where did you go?

6 A. I returned home.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. For two days to rest.

9 Q. Okay. And then so around the 20th or the 21st, you would have

10 returned again to that position?

11 A. After two days' rest at home, yes.

12 Q. Okay. Now, and I think that's fine with this map. We won't need

13 it any longer.

14 Did you ever go to Zepa, sir?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. And do you recall about what time you went to Zepa?

17 A. I don't know the dates.

18 Q. All right. Do you know whether you went to Zepa when the

19 commander of the Bratunac Brigade went there?

20 A. He wasn't with us.

21 Q. Okay. Do you know whether he left for Zepa before or after?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay.

24 Now, I think I would like to show you at this point in time the

25 video that has come into evidence already. And it has been marked -- it's

Page 9288

1 been admitted as P21.

2 [Videoclip played]

3 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could stop and maybe go back a little bit.

4 Okay. We could stop right here.

5 Q. Do you recognise yourself in this still?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. And who are you? If we could keep the -- thank you.

8 If we could keep the video there for a second, who are you? Which

9 one of them?

10 A. The first one on the left.

11 Q. And I take it -- are you carrying any weapons that you can see in

12 the photograph?

13 A. I am carrying a pistol.

14 Q. What about a rifle?

15 A. Yes, I have a rifle, too.

16 Q. And that's on your shoulder. Correct?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. And what else are you carrying?

19 A. A rucksack with my things.

20 Q. All right. Now, the next individual that's right beside you, do

21 you know who that person is?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. And who is that?

24 A. Mladen Radic.

25 Q. What about the older gentleman who is holding his rifle like one

Page 9289

1 of those pictures that we see of kids trying to run away from home,

2 holding it in that fashion, do you recognise that individual?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And who is that?

5 A. Vuksic, Miladin.

6 Q. And you said you gone with your friends, are these your friends

7 that you were referring to?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could play just a little bit more. And we

11 can --

12 [Vidoeclip played]

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Stop right here.

14 Q. This individual that we see right here, is he one of your friends

15 or within the company, the 2nd Company --

16 A. No. No.

17 Q. Did you have any contact with him or anybody else that looked --

18 that was there in that fashion?

19 A. No. No. I don't know him at all.

20 Q. Now, if we -- in looking at the terrain, could you please tell us

21 in which direction is the camera moving toward?

22 A. Towards Bratunac.

23 Q. Where would the Zuti Most be? Would it be in front of us or

24 behind us in this photograph?

25 A. In front of us.

Page 9290

1 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you would have walked in the

2 direction that we see. Correct? You would have been coming in the

3 opposite direction of where the video is heading.

4 MR. SHIN: If we could do this without the leading questions,

5 particularly in this area, and that's it.


7 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could go back to the video, and if we could

8 play it.

9 [Vidoeclip played]

10 MR. KARNAVAS: If we can move back, I'm going to ask a question

11 that was previously asked of Mr. Vuksic with respect to the camera. I

12 believe the Prosecution wanted to know where you guys were coming from.

13 Q. In which direction are the buses heading?

14 A. In the direction of Bratunac.

15 Q. Where would the buses have been coming from, assuming they're

16 going towards Bratunac?

17 A. They're going towards Bratunac, but they came from Bratunac, and

18 that is where they made an about-turn, in Potocari.

19 Q. What's facing the -- these buses are facing towards Bratunac, so

20 what's behind them?

21 A. Potocari.

22 Q. All right. I don't think I need any more of the video. Thank you

23 very much.

24 Now, just a couple of questions left, you indicated to us that you

25 live in Bratunac. Is that correct?

Page 9291

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And we know that you have been identified by the Office of the

3 Prosecution in this photograph. My question is: Did anyone from the

4 Office of the Prosecution ever come to see you, to see whether you could

5 shed some light as to what, if anything, you were doing on that particular

6 day?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Had they come to visit you in Bratunac, would they have been able

9 to find you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And had they located you, would you have been willing to provide

12 them any information with respect to what you were doing on that

13 particular day; that is, July 12, 1995?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. But no one came to see you.

16 A. No one.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions. I want to thank you

19 very much for being very honest with us, and I will appreciate if you

20 could answer the Prosecution's questions as honest and as forthrightly as

21 you have done with me. Thank you, sir.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

23 Mr. Lukic, do you have any questions to this witness?

24 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. Again, we don't have any questions

25 for this witness.

Page 9292

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 Any cross-examination.

3 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Shin.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Shin:

6 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. You testify a little earlier that your commander, and I believe

9 you said it was Mr. Zoran Cvjetinovic, had ordered you to search the

10 terrain when you were leaving Zuti Most. Do you remember that?

11 A. Yes, he said that we were going to search the terrain. However,

12 we didn't do any searching, actually.

13 Q. In any case, he told you that you would be searching the terrain?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he tell you what you were searching for?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you ask him?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did anyone tell you what you would do if you came across any

20 Muslims, armed or unarmed?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You identified in that video someone you identified as your

23 friend, Mr. Miladin Radic. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Radic has told the Office of the Prosecutor that --

Page 9293

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Can we have an actual quote, Your Honour, and a

2 page where this comes from. I think we've had this before, this problem.

3 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, I'm sure you're familiar with our

4 position.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: My position is quite opposite --

6 MR. SHIN: It's not necessary --

7 JUDGE LIU: There's no debate. Let Mr. Shin finish his statement.

8 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, I'm sure you're familiar with our position

9 that it is not necessary for us to identify the exact quote as long as we

10 have a good-faith basis for our questions.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: And my position, Your Honour, has been and I

12 demonstrated that the lack of good-faith basis from time to time. Whether

13 it's from sloppiness or otherwise it matters not. And I even just showed

14 recently Mr. Butler misquoting the record. So I would prefer the page and

15 the line. Assuming that the gentleman has done his preparation, he should

16 be able to give that to me.

17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, as I said before, generally speaking,

18 the cross-examination, the party who conducts the cross could put a

19 question directly to the witness, and later on, if necessary, we need the

20 specific quotations from the transcript and from the previous statement.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: The problem with that, Your Honour, and I don't

22 mean to debate it, is I just received their list. I don't have the

23 statement with me. So I'm being asked after the hearing to go and check

24 to see whether they do have a good-faith basis for characterising what

25 another witness said. And I found myself that from time to time that they

Page 9294

1 have made mistakes. And he can certainly tell me from what page and what

2 line.

3 JUDGE LIU: As a principle, as I said, the cross-examination does

4 not need this kind of practice. But in this instance, as you request

5 specifically, Mr. Shin, could you please be kind enough to mention that

6 page or number or whatever as an indicia to this statement.

7 MR. SHIN: Yes, I will, Mr. President. And I appreciate your

8 understanding of our position on the specific request here.

9 The particular page comes from the transcript of the interview

10 with Mr. Miladin Radic on the 20th of June 2002. The page reference, a

11 useful page reference would be the ERN number, which is L0077040. And it

12 may be helpful at that point to begin from line 3 and maybe read down to

13 the rest of the page.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may proceed.

15 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Mr. Stevic, I apologise for that -- I apologise for that.

17 If we could return to the question, you identified on the video

18 someone as Miladin Radic, you identified him as a friend of yours. You

19 recall that, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Let me ask you this: Mr. Radic has told the Office of the

22 Prosecutor, they were ordered to search the terrain. If they found any

23 prisoners, to hand them over to either the civilian or the military police

24 in Potocari. Do you have anything to say about that?

25 A. No one said that to me.

Page 9295

1 Q. I'd like to move on to Budak, if I could. And I'll need a map for

2 this.

3 MR. SHIN: While the usher is assisting us, I would just inform

4 Your Honours this is a map that has been marked Prosecution Exhibit 861.1.

5 Q. Now Mr. Stevic, if you could please take a look at this map, it's

6 a more detailed section of that map -- not that specific map you've seen

7 before, but a more detailed section of part of that area. Do you have the

8 map in front of you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you see Budak?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you see Pecista?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And Dogazi?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you please using the pointer tell us where it was you met the

17 rest of your company when you returned there.

18 A. We met up with them somewhere -- here somewhere. Around here.

19 Q. Could I please have you mark that perhaps -- any colour will do.

20 Blue is fine. Actually, red would be better, since that is a rather blue

21 map.

22 Could you please draw a number 1 there and put a circle around

23 where you met them.

24 A. I'm not able to pinpoint the exact place, but it's somewhere

25 there. Budak.

Page 9296

1 Q. Did you know that you were supposed to meet the rest of the

2 company there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When did you find that out? When did you find out that was where

5 you were supposed to meet the rest of the company?

6 A. When we set off.

7 Q. When you set off from Zuti Most, you mean?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. So you knew when you set off from Zuti Most that that was

10 where you were going to meet the rest of your company. How many people

11 were in your company, Mr. Stevic, approximately?

12 A. I don't know the exact number.

13 Q. I'm not asking the exact number. If you could just tell me

14 approximately.

15 A. About -- up to 50. About 50 men.

16 Q. About 50 men. Now --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you went to this place where you've marked with the number 1,

19 was the rest of the company waiting for you?

20 A. They were sitting there.

21 Q. Could you -- if you could please, could you describe with a little

22 more detail where they were sitting, were they sitting on the road, on the

23 side of the road? Where were they?

24 A. On the road. Next to the road. Alongside the road.

25 Q. And there was about 50 people there, then, as I understand it, who

Page 9297

1 were sitting there next to the road, just next to the road?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall approximately what time it was that you got to

4 Budak?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Was it -- was it in the afternoon?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Was it in the -- I'm sorry. I'll let you finish. Sorry.

9 A. After 1.00 p.m. 1.00 or after 1.00.

10 Q. Do you know if it was later than 3.00?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know how long those men had been sitting there waiting for

13 you?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I object to the characterisation. He

15 never said they were waiting for them. He found them there, not that they

16 were waiting for him to arrive as if, you know, they knew that he was

17 gone.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think so, Mr. Karnavas. Please look at

19 the transcript of the testimony of this witness earlier, just a few lines

20 above.

21 You may proceed, Mr. Shin.

22 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE LIU: But anyway, I could not understand the gist of your

24 cross-examination on this point. Maybe you'll show us later on.

25 MR. SHIN: Yes. Mr. President, I will at least attempt to show

Page 9298

1 you later on. And I'll be completing this point relatively quickly in any

2 event.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, please.

4 MR. SHIN: If I could just seek Your Honours' indulgence for one

5 second.

6 Q. Mr. Stevic, to return to my question, do you know how long those

7 men had been sitting there waiting for you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. When you got there, did you join them sitting down, or did they

10 all get up immediately and start walking off?

11 A. I sat down as well for a while, and then we got up and headed on.

12 Q. And how long was it you were sitting there approximately?

13 A. Not long, five or six minutes.

14 Q. Okay.

15 Mr. Stevic, you're from Bratunac. And this map that you have

16 there, you're familiar with that area. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, up to a point.

18 Q. Now, you had explained to us that you had turned off the roads

19 towards -- I'm sorry, that the other men had turn off the road towards

20 Budak, and you mentioned a feature there. And there were three different

21 ways of identifying this building or structure, and I just wanted to know

22 if they were all the same. There was a -- you said there was a generator

23 factory there. Is that correct, where the turnoff is?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you just look at that map that you have next to you and

Page 9299

1 indicate with that pointer first where this generator factory is.

2 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

3 Q. Mr. Stevic, if it would be helpful, perhaps I could direct you to

4 a road that you've already marked on Defence --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Budak.

6 MR. SHIN: -- Exhibit D154.

7 Yes, there's Budak. Now, you'll recall you marked a map already

8 that's marked Defence Exhibit D154. And perhaps we could provide you with

9 a copy of that map to orient yourself.

10 As you study that map, I would ask you to look at the number --

11 well, I'll let you study that map first.

12 If I direct you now to number 65 on this map, does that assist you

13 in identifying, first of all, then where the turnoff to Budak is; and

14 secondly, where that structure is that you've identified?

15 A. This is where the factories are, the generator factory in

16 Potocari.

17 Q. Do you see a -- do you see the turnoff to Budak that you

18 previously marked on the other map?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. Just point to that.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. I'm sorry. The turnoff from the Zuti Most-Srebrenica road, you

23 said you turned right to go towards Budak. If you can just mark where

24 that Budak is.

25 A. For Budak.

Page 9300

1 Q. That's the turnoff? That's the road from Zuti Most leading

2 towards Budak?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Stevic, when we look at this map, it looks like there's two

5 roads that turnoff the Zuti Most-Srebrenica road towards Budak. There's

6 one near the 65. Do you see the number 65, just to the left of the number

7 65?

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. And if you look further down, going down on that road towards

10 Srebrenica, there's another road -- there seems to be another road to the

11 left of that word Pecista.

12 A. Yes, there's that road.

13 Q. So you see that there are two roads that lead off the Zuti

14 Most-Srebrenica road going towards Budak?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Which one did the rest of the company -- not you, the rest of the

17 company take?

18 A. The first road.

19 Q. Okay. Now, where is this generator factory?

20 A. Here somewhere.

21 Q. Okay. Is the generator factory the same thing as the Feros

22 battery factory or the Feros battery factory?

23 A. It's the same thing.

24 Q. Okay. We'll come back to this map in a minute. But I'd like to

25 ask you about another area.

Page 9301

1 You mentioned that you continued on after the rest of your company

2 had turned off. You continued on with some friends. How many friends was

3 that?

4 A. There were four of us.

5 Q. Do you remember who they were? Could you give us their names,

6 please.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who were they?

9 A. Miladin Tadic, Miladin Vuksic, Brano Ilic, and myself.

10 Q. I think that first name came in as Miladin Tadic. Is that

11 correct? Is Tadic the first person's last name or is it something else?

12 A. Radic. Radic. Miladin Radic, also known as Babaja.

13 Q. So it was just the four of you. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the others went towards Budak at that first turnoff that you

16 indicated?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are you sure there weren't more of you who went down passed that

19 turnoff towards Srebrenica?

20 A. I'm sure.

21 Q. I mean, there are only 50 or so people in your company, so you

22 will have known if you'd seen some other people from your company down

23 there. Is that right?

24 A. I didn't see anybody else.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 9302

1 MR. SHIN: If we could please have that video played. That would

2 be the same video that Mr. Karnavas had requested a short time ago.

3 [Vidoeclip played]

4 MR. SHIN: Could we please back up for a minute there.

5 Thank you. And if we could move forward. Again, continue to move

6 forward. And If we could stop here.

7 Q. Mr. Stevic, I would like you to look at not only the armed men

8 along the road, but in the fields behind you'll see that there are some

9 men as well.

10 MR. SHIN: If we could continue playing the video, please.

11 [Vidoeclip played]

12 MR. SHIN: We can stop there. And, I'm sorry, can we back up a

13 little bit. My apologies to the AV booth. And stop there, please.

14 Q. Do you see that group of men in the field in between the first and

15 the second man on the road, if you look back there in the field?

16 A. I don't know who they are.

17 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to show you, Mr. Stevic, some stills, some

18 pictures taken from this video. And I'd like to begin with page 1 of

19 chapter 12 of an exhibit whose number I'll get in a minute.

20 I'm sorry. I should know that by now. It's Exhibit Number 22.

21 Now, we'll try to go through this relatively quickly, if we could.

22 Now, that person with the number 1 on it, that's your friend Brano Ilic.

23 That's correct, isn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Number 2, you've already identified yourself there.

Page 9303

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And number 3 --

3 A. Vuksic. Miladin Vuksic.

4 Q. Between yourself and Miladin Vuksic, there's someone else. Do you

5 know who that is?

6 A. Miladin Bradic.

7 Q. I'm sorry, that's Bradic or Radic.

8 A. Radic.

9 Q. So those are the four people, those four friends, that you went

10 down towards Srebrenica with. Those are the ones you mentioned. That's

11 correct, isn't it?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Could we have page 3 from that exhibit placed as well.

14 Mr. Stevic, do you recognise that man with the number 1 over his

15 head?

16 A. No.

17 Q. He has been identified to the Office of the Prosecutor by one of

18 your friends, Mr. Brano Ilic, as a Miladin Ilic. Does that help you

19 recall who that is?

20 A. No. No.

21 Q. We were told that he is a member of the 2nd Company, 2nd

22 Battalion, same as yourself.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay. So we have this fifth man in addition to your four. Do you

25 see that man with the number 2 over his head?

Page 9304

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Do you recognise him?

3 A. No, I don't.

4 Q. Do you know he has also been identified by Mr. Brano Ilic as Mirko

5 Stevic, also a member of your company?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. If I can please go to the next picture, that would be page 4 from

8 chapter 12 of this exhibit.

9 Before we get to that, Mr. Stevic, Miladin Ilic, do you know who

10 he is? Do you know that name?

11 A. No, I don't know it.

12 Q. So you don't know if he was in your company or not?

13 A. No, I don't. I don't know.

14 Q. Mirko Stevic, do you know that name?

15 A. Mirko Stevic, no.

16 Q. Was there someone in your company named Desimir Drakula?

17 A. Desimir Drakula?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Yes, he was in the company. But I don't know in which platoon.

20 Q. Was there someone in your company with the nickname Krsto?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Was there someone in your company with the nickname Mijo?

23 A. There was more than one Mijo.

24 Q. Okay. If we could put the next page on there, please, that's page

25 4, chapter 12 of this exhibit. Do you recognise the person with the

Page 9305

1 number 1 on it?

2 A. No.

3 Q. That person has been identified by Mr. Ilic as someone nicknamed

4 Krsto who is from your company.

5 Do you recognise number 2?

6 A. I don't recognise him, no.

7 Q. The person has already been identified by Mr. Ilic as a member of

8 your company, a Mr. Radic.

9 Do you recognise number 3?

10 A. I think that's Ilija Radic.

11 Q. Okay. Did he have a brother named Dusko?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was Ilija Radic a member of your company? Do you remember?

14 A. Yes, he was. But he was on sick leave in those days.

15 Q. Do you recognise the man with number 4 on it?

16 A. I don't recall him.

17 Q. What about number 5 in the background there?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Both of those have also been identify by Mr. Ilic as members of

20 your company.

21 Now, do you know if -- did you ever find out when you met the rest

22 of the company in Budak, did you ever find out that there had been other

23 people other than the four of you who had been down to -- towards

24 Srebrenica, in the direction of Srebrenica, near Potocari?

25 A. No.

Page 9306

1 Q. Okay. And so -- but you would -- so you haven't heard anything

2 that maybe 10 or 11 of the members of your company did not take that road

3 to Budak, as opposed to four?

4 A. No.

5 MR. SHIN: If we can just play that video one last time, and we'll

6 just play the first half of it, please.

7 I'm sorry, I'm finished with the photograph now.

8 Q. Mr. Stevic, I'd like you to take a look at the other armed persons

9 who are along that road.

10 [Vidoeclip played]

11 MR. SHIN: If we could go slow motion here, please. I'm sorry.

12 If we could continue, continue on. And from here, going in slow motion,

13 please, so that Mr. Stevic will have an opportunity to study this screen.

14 Q. Mr. Stevic, as you can see, in addition to the people that we've

15 just discussed and that Mr. Karnavas has asked you about, there are other

16 armed people there as well. And we have already mentioned the people in

17 the background in the field.

18 A. I don't know any of them.

19 Q. Can you keep looking a little further.

20 Okay. Do you recognise any of the people further down there?

21 Perhaps that's too far for you.

22 MR. SHIN: We can stop the video there, please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know any of them.

24 MR. SHIN:

25 Q. Mr. Stevic, if there were other members of your company only a few

Page 9307

1 metres further down that road in front of, is it possible that in front of

2 them there were other members of your company?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, it calls for speculation.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe so.

5 MR. SHIN: Okay, I'll move on, Your Honour.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Stevic, I'd like to return to this map. But before I do,

7 I'd like to ask you: You said you went 200 metres or so with your three

8 friends past the point where the rest of the company turned off. Did I

9 get that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, were there any -- did you see any -- was there buildings or

12 anything around you that you remember the point where you turned around?

13 A. Across the road, there was a factory. And that was the battery

14 factory where I turned off.

15 Q. Okay. You say the battery factory was where the turnoff was

16 towards Budak that the rest of the company took. You also told us you

17 went 200 metres further than that. What I'm asking you is was there a

18 feature or structure or something at the end of that 200 metres as you are

19 going passed that turnoff towards Budak?

20 A. No.

21 Q. There was nothing, or none that you recall?

22 A. No.

23 Q. But there were, of course, next to you a line of buses and trucks

24 as you've already explained, as well as a crowd of people. Is that

25 correct?

Page 9308

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, I'd like you to look at this map one last time. Mr. Stevic,

3 you indicated just to the left of that 91 on the map where you met up with

4 the rest of the company. And first, let me ask you this: Were you

5 admonished in any way for having separated from the rest of the company,

6 the four of you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Was anyone else admonished in any way for separating from the

9 company?

10 A. I didn't hear of it.

11 Q. Now, you've indicated where that is. You went past the first

12 turnoff towards Budak, and the rest of the company went on towards Budak

13 as you explained. And you also told us that when you left Zuti Most, you

14 knew -- when you left Zuti Most, you knew where the company was going to

15 gather in the area of Budak. There are two roads here. Why didn't you

16 just take that second road to meet that company? Why did you go back up

17 towards Zuti Most and then turn left towards Budak?

18 A. I didn't understand your question.

19 Q. Okay. My question is basically this: Why did you turn back to

20 the road that went off to -- why did you turn back north towards Bratunac

21 and turn off towards Budak where the rest of the company had gone? Why

22 didn't you just continue down and then make the right turn, second right

23 turn towards Budak since you already knew where the company was going to

24 meet --

25 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

Page 9309

1 MR. SHIN: The second road, yes. My question is: Why didn't you

2 do that?

3 A. But I did go down that second road, and we met up there at Budak.

4 That's where I caught up with them.

5 Q. Thank you. So you and your three other friends walked all the way

6 down to that second road and then made a turnoff towards Budak. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when you were going on this walk, you didn't see those other

10 people that we identified on these photographs, that I identified on that

11 photograph. I'm sorry, on those photographs. Any of the people

12 identified on the photographs turning around. And you didn't come across

13 them as you were walking towards that second road, did you?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much. No further questions,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any redirect?

18 MR. KARNAVAS: This cross calls for no redirect, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 Well, at this stage, are there any documents to tender?

21 Mr. Karnavas.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President.

23 D154, which is the map that the witness marked and testified from.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 Any objections, Mr. Shin?

Page 9310

1 MR. SHIN: No objections, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE LIU: This document, the map, D154 is admitted into the

3 evidence.

4 On the part of the Prosecution, are there any documents to tender?

5 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President. It's the -- it's a map marked

6 Prosecution Exhibit 861.1 that has been marked by Mr. Stevic.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. This document is admitted into the evidence.

10 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

11 your evidence. We appreciate it very much. The usher will show you out

12 of the room, and we wish you a pleasant journey back home.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I understand that the Prosecution will file a

16 motion for the amendment of the indictment very soon.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have been assisted in that

18 matter by getting a deadline for tomorrow, which I intend to meet.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you.

20 And according to the rules, there will be 14 days on the part of

21 the Defence if there are any objections to raise concerning this motion.

22 And I must say that we are proceeding pretty fast. I believe at the end

23 of next week we'll be done over half, more than half of the live

24 witnesses. So I hope the Defence counsel could file their response as

25 soon as possible. I did not set a specific date because it's very

Page 9311

1 difficult to prejudge the contents of that motion yet. We have not seen

2 it at this moment.

3 Could I hear from Mr. Karnavas on that.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, well, it's always comforting that the

5 Prosecution would arrest somebody in 1999, indict them, -- well, indict

6 them first in 1999, arrest them in 2001, go to trial in 2003, and then

7 right before the -- in midstream of the Defence case amend the indictment.

8 It's very comforting to know that the fairness with -- in which the Office

9 of the Prosecution is working.

10 I haven't seen it. I don't know what they intend to do. I

11 understand that the reason that they're amending the indictment is

12 motivated by the Krstic judgement. Once I see it, I'll have a better

13 opportunity to gauge what needs to be done. I take it they will take into

14 consideration some of the factual findings that are in favour of

15 Mr. Blagojevic, and perhaps delete some of those paragraphs that did not

16 belong in the indictment at any point in time. They certainly don't

17 belong right now. But I'll have to wait and see.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I've instructed the people on my

20 team not to respond to Mr. Karnavas's continued comments. And I will try

21 to bite my tongue as well. I think the Court knows the reasons why we're

22 filing the amended indictment, to conform with the law. It doesn't add

23 anything in terms of any substance of significance. It's to conform with

24 the way the genocide law has developed in this Tribunal. And I won't

25 respond to the various comments about how this was -- how this case

Page 9312

1 proceeded. But in any event, I think it is important that something be

2 said so that the public understands that we are conforming with the law as

3 it has been developed, and as I know that the Trial Chamber understood.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: First of all, Your Honour --

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we are not going into a debate.

6 We have had already for many, many times.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, just as long as --

8 JUDGE LIU: I'm just asking you a very simple question and request

9 your cooperation to see if there's any possibility for you to submit your

10 response as soon as possible while recognising that according to the rules

11 you have 14 days to respond. That's a very simple question, you know. We

12 shouldn't go back to this debate.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. As long as my objection to

14 these latter comments are registered. I will do whatever -- the best I

15 can to get it in as expeditiously as possible. I don't intend to play the

16 games that we often see, to take my full 14 days. I will do it as quickly

17 as possible.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

19 At this stage, are there any other matters the parties would like

20 to raise?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you. It seems to me there's nothing.

23 So the hearing's adjourned for this week. We'll meet next week at

24 9.00, I think in Courtroom I.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

Page 9313

1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of May,

2 2004, at 9.00 a.m.