Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9399

1 Tuesday, 18 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Good morning, everybody.

10 Mr. Lukic, do you have any questions -- or Mr. Stojanovic, do you

11 have any questions to this witness?

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

13 Good morning, Mr. Trisic.

14 Mr. Lukic informed me about yesterday's examination, and today in

15 talking with our client -- after talking to our client, I can say that we

16 have no questions for this particular witness.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much and welcome back to this

18 courtroom.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, any cross-examination?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,

22 everyone, Mr. Stojanovic.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey:

Page 9400

1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trisic. Mr. Trisic, can you tell us how well

2 you know Colonel Blagojevic.

3 A. Well, in terms of time, I've known him for two years. And I knew

4 him before also, but we really just only occasionally met. We were not --

5 it was not as if we met regularly.

6 Q. He's from Bratunac; you're from Bratunac. Right?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. And when you say those two years, was that the two years that you

9 were working under him from -- during the war years?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And can you tell us, what kind of commander was he? Was he

12 a good commander?

13 A. Yes, he was.

14 Q. Was he respected by his troops and by his officers?

15 A. He was held in high esteem, exceptionally.

16 Q. Was he the kind of man you could come to when you needed to? Was

17 his door always open?

18 A. That's exactly the way it was.

19 Q. So did he communicate well with his officers and his troops?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. So he didn't secret himself off and he wasn't a loner?

22 A. No, no. He wasn't.

23 Q. Did he issue clear and concise orders to his men and his officers?

24 A. Yes, he did.

25 Q. Yesterday I heard a general in another matter being interviewed,

Page 9401

1 and the person asked him: How can you be responsible for a thousand men

2 under your command? And the general said: The chain of command is an

3 extension of me. Do you agree with that? In the VRS, is the chain of

4 command under a commander an extension of that commander?

5 A. Well, that is a fact of life in the army.

6 Q. It's more than just a fact of life; it's a fundamental principle,

7 isn't it?

8 A. Yes, indeed.

9 Q. And was Colonel Blagojevic the kind of man that would take

10 responsibility for the problems that arose and the things that occurred,

11 or was he the kind of guy that would blame others; blame his subordinates

12 or blame his superiors?

13 A. He was rather the kind of guy who would take responsibility up on

14 his shoulders.

15 Q. Okay. And a sign of a critical part of command is keeping

16 well-informed of what's going on around you, isn't it? Lives depend on

17 it.

18 A. Well, that's the way it ought to be.

19 Q. Well, that's a critical part of command, isn't it, keeping

20 informed? A good commander keeps informed of what's going on around him.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And Colonel Blagojevic was a good commander.

23 A. Yes, he was.

24 Q. Now, when there are senior officers about in the brigade area,

25 from the corps, from the Main Staff, that's potentially problematic for

Page 9402

1 yourself and for your commander, isn't it?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. If those officers - for example, General Krstic or General Mladic

4 - issue orders, it's -- would be the brigade commander's responsibility

5 to carry out any orders issued to him or his officers, wouldn't it?

6 A. Yes, it would.

7 Q. And it would be natural for a commander in the situation of

8 Commander Blagojevic to try to keep track of what Mladic and General

9 Krstic had in mind, what their orders were, what they wanted, in order not

10 to get himself in trouble with them and undercut their plans.

11 A. Yes, he would.

12 Q. Nobody would want to undercut General Mladic, because if you did,

13 your career could go down the drain, couldn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. I want to show you a document, if I could. It's a document

16 -- I think it's dated 1993, October. It's P857/A. And this document --

17 just near the end, if you could take a look at it, it just makes a

18 reference that Lieutenant Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic was appointed to that

19 position, meaning the chief of staff of the -- looks like the Bratunac

20 Light Infantry Brigade.

21 Do you remember a time in late 1993 when Colonel Blagojevic was

22 the chief of staff of the Bratunac Brigade?

23 A. Would you -- I apologise. Would you be so kind as to repeat the

24 question, please.

25 Q. Sure. Do you remember a time in late 1993 when Colonel Blagojevic

Page 9403

1 - or I guess at this time he was a lieutenant colonel - was appointed to

2 the position of chief of staff of the Bratunac Brigade, as it mentions in

3 this document? You were there, as I recall from your testimony yesterday.

4 A. 1993 -- I do not recall this detail.

5 Q. You don't ever recall Colonel Blagojevic coming over to Bratunac

6 and being a deputy commander, your deputy commander, chief of staff for a

7 while?

8 A. I cannot remember.

9 Q. Okay. And where was Colonel Blagojevic before he became commander

10 of the brigade in -- you may recall he became commander of the Bratunac

11 Brigade on 25 May 1995.

12 A. He was with the command of the Drina Corps.

13 Q. In Vlasenica?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what was his position there?

16 A. I think that he was in the operations sector -- no, sorry. No,

17 no, no. He was at the head -- or the chief of engineering corps.

18 Q. Okay. And you're aware that there was a corps engineering

19 battalion at Konjevic Polje, the 5th Engineering Battalion?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And so, as chief of engineers of the Drina Corps, Colonel

22 Blagojevic would have dealt with and made recommendations regarding the

23 use of the 5th Engineering Battalion at Konjevic Polje?

24 A. Probably.

25 Q. Do you know how long Colonel Blagojevic was the chief of engineers

Page 9404

1 at the corps before becoming commander of the Bratunac Brigade?

2 A. No, no. I don't remember that.

3 Q. Do you have any idea? Two years? One year? Just a couple of

4 weeks?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Calls for speculation. Objection.


7 The witness has answered that he has no idea about that.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

9 Q. Now, we've heard in this courtroom that in late May/early June the

10 Bratunac Brigade was involved in a -- some sort of an attack or mock

11 attack on the UN checkpoint at Zeleni Jadar, and that as a result of that

12 attack, that checkpoint was withdrawn by the UN. It was something I

13 believe was referred to as Operation Jadar. Now, such an operation would

14 have taken logistic support, I imagine. Do you recall this operation in

15 the Zeleni Jadar area late May/early June?

16 A. No, I do not recall it.

17 Q. You inventoried -- or we saw an inventory of the UN OPs after the

18 fall of Srebrenica. Do you remember inventorying the materiels left

19 behind at the UN/Zeleni Jadar checkpoint?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, that assumes that there was an

21 inventory of anything that was captured after. So perhaps if we could

22 have a predicate. Perhaps there is a document that would demonstrate that

23 they captured materiel that needed to be inventoried, as we have, for

24 instance, after the fall of Srebrenica.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes --

Page 9405

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: In cross-examination that's not necessary, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: But --

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's a perfectly clear question, did he inventory

5 materiel?

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, we saw documents of the inventory of the UN left

7 over in Srebrenica, but we are not sure whether that inventory listed some

8 equipment left behind in that Zeleni Jadar checkpoint. That's the

9 problem.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: My question is not related to that, Your Honour.

11 I just want to know if they inventoried any property from the Zeleni Jadar

12 checkpoint.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may try. Please go ahead.


15 Q. Did you inventory any property from the Zeleni Jadar checkpoint in

16 June 1995?

17 A. No, I don't remember anything of the kind.

18 Q. We've also heard that some of the battalions were required to send

19 men down to the Zeleni Jadar area prior to the attack on Srebrenica. I

20 take it those -- to help fill the line and take up some of the space that

21 was created there when the UN checkpoint was left. Did you supply any

22 logistics for those men that were moving down to Zeleni Jadar prior to the

23 attack on the enclave?

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. Okay. Now, you have told us -- if I could just briefly now refer

Page 9406

1 to the Krivaja 95 attack plan, the corps plan, which is Exhibit 543. And

2 just, I think, for convenience, there's also the attack plan with Mr. --

3 Colonel Blagojevic's name at the bottom of it, citing this other one. If

4 we could get that document as well. That's a Defence exhibit, I believe.

5 So did you -- I believe you testified you had a chance to know

6 about this Drina Corps attack plan. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you -- were you actually able to read it at some point?

9 A. No. I was informed -- I familiarised myself, rather, with item 9,

10 the logistics. I was not interested in the other particulars.

11 Q. Well, was it in fact read out to you at some point?

12 A. Well, probably.

13 Q. I just note in the minutes of the brigade command of 5 July, it

14 notes that the brigade commander presented the order of the Drina Corps

15 command.

16 Do you remember that the day before the attack, that Blagojevic

17 presented this order to the brigade command?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. So Colonel Blagojevic would have been fully familiar with this

20 order, Krivaja 95?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And were you aware that this plan did not envision actually taking

23 the enclave?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. And were you aware that there were two principal objectives to

Page 9407

1 this plan? One was to separate the enclaves of Zepa, Srebrenica, stop the

2 infiltration between the two. Are you aware of that objective?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And were you also aware of the objective to -- on the -- during

5 the attack of the Srebrenica enclave, that the objective was to reduce the

6 enclave to the urban area of Srebrenica?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And so if you knew that, Colonel Blagojevic would have been aware

9 of that object as well?

10 A. He would have been.

11 Q. And the city area or the urban area of Srebrenica, about how big

12 is that? We know it's kind of a long -- or it's a skinny, narrow city,

13 but can you just give us roughly what dimensions it would be.

14 A. Are you talking about the area? The width, the length, the area?

15 Is that what you mean?

16 Q. Yeah. Just the width of the town and the length of the town, of

17 the actual urban area.

18 A. Well, it is approximately as regards the length from the sports

19 stadium to the exit from Srebrenica towards Jadar, where there is a

20 bakery, this is about 4 kilometres long.

21 Q. Four kilometres by about how wide?

22 A. Well, about a kilometre, a kilometre and a half.

23 Q. Now, were you aware that at the time of the attack on Srebrenica,

24 a good large number of the Muslim population of the enclave lived outside

25 the urban area?

Page 9408

1 A. We were informed that the bulk of the population was there, in

2 Srebrenica, immediately in Srebrenica proper.

3 Q. Did you know about the Swedish shelter project, where thousands of

4 Muslims lived outside of Srebrenica? You may have inventoried some of the

5 many materiels from that.

6 A. Well, we heard about this settlement in the Jadar valley. I

7 cannot recall its name. If that is the Swedish project you are referring

8 to, I'm not sure.

9 Q. Okay. Yesterday when you were, I believe, speaking of the Krivaja

10 95 document and I believe Colonel Blagojevic's document, you had mentioned

11 you believed that a reference in, I believe it was the Blagojevic

12 document, was a reference to the Drina Corps Krivaja 95 document. And

13 just to try to remind you, the reference was to a document that was dated

14 -- numbered 156-1. And Mr. Karnavas pointed out to you that the Krivaja

15 95 Drina Corps document was 156-2. And you had testified you thought,

16 well -- that it was the same document.

17 Well, we have found a document of that same date dated 156-1. And

18 just to clear this up to make sure we've got the documents straight, I

19 wanted to show you this document 156-1, which is also dated 2 July, and

20 it's directed -- signed off by General Zivanovic, the corps commander, and

21 it is directed to the subordinate units of the Drina Corps. And it's

22 basically a call to arms to get ready and to get troops together for the

23 upcoming offensive activities, which are to begin 4 July. And so if you

24 could just take a look at that.

25 Would this be the correct document, the one that was referenced in

Page 9409

1 the Blagojevic document? It's 862/A, for the record.

2 A. Well, I can't see a thing here. It's a poor copy.

3 Q. I apologise about that. And in any event, I don't think there

4 will be any objection, so we will try to get a better copy for the record.

5 Now, you talked a little bit about Pribicevac. Can you describe

6 the command area of Pribicevac. It's basically a tiny little village on a

7 hillside, isn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How many buildings were there at the time?

10 A. Very few; maybe a couple.

11 Q. One was used as a command centre for the corps?

12 A. It was the command of the 3rd Battalion, and I don't know whether

13 the corps command ever used it.

14 Q. Okay. But there weren't very many buildings there is fair enough

15 to say, I guess.

16 A. It is, yeah.

17 Q. All right. Now, you've described briefly your position and the

18 people, the few people that you -- your assistants under you, and you've

19 given us their names. Did you have any more immediate staff besides I

20 think those three people?

21 A. We had a rear company, a logistics company.

22 Q. So you had a whole rear service company that you were responsible

23 for?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In fact, Colonel Blagojevic bore overall responsibility of that

Page 9410

1 rear service company; is that right?

2 A. The entire brigade, as a matter of fact.

3 Q. And can you describe how many men were in the rear service

4 company?

5 A. Let's say 20.

6 Q. And can you just briefly describe to us the, you know, the

7 hierarchy there. Who was in command of the rear service company and what

8 kind of staff did that person have?

9 A. Yes, I can. The company commander was Captain Radosavljevic. He

10 had a technical staff -- quartermaster staff and transport staff, or

11 squad. And he was their immediate superior.

12 Q. And where was this company located?

13 A. In the centre of town, in the vicinity of the medical centre

14 there. It was an old building that used to be used by the Territorial

15 Defence and the agriculture cooperative.

16 Q. And they were active and on duty on 12 and 13 July, this company?

17 A. Yes, save for Captain Radosavljevic, who was off duty at that

18 time.

19 Q. So who was in charge in his absence?

20 A. Well, squad commanders had their duties, and they would perform

21 them according to their given tasks.

22 Q. Well, somebody must have been in charge of the company when the

23 commander was absent.

24 A. He had an assistant whose name I can't remember at the moment. He

25 had an assistant; however, his job was not that difficult at worst of

Page 9411

1 times.

2 Q. Now, you've told us that from the corps there was Colonel Acamovic

3 and I believe it was a Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic from the rear

4 services of the corps. What other staff or soldiers, if any, were there

5 in Bratunac on the 12th, 13th, or 14th from the corps, rear services?

6 A. I can't give you all of their names; however, people would come,

7 deliver materiel and equipment, fuel. I personally didn't see them and I

8 was not supposed to see them.

9 Q. But how many corps people were there besides these two officers?

10 Rear service types I mean.

11 A. I wouldn't know.

12 Q. So -- but there was a large group of the Bratunac Brigade that was

13 able to do their rear service, logistics support, transportation,

14 quartermaster job at the time. Is that right?

15 A. We performed our regular tasks, which consisted in supplying our

16 own brigade.

17 Q. Well, did you assist the corps in the operation to help transport

18 the Muslims out of Potocari? For example, did you help with the fuel, the

19 counting of the fuel?

20 A. People from the rear services company did give a hand with

21 everything that was needed.

22 Q. That was their job, wasn't it, to work together with the corps to

23 get the job done, to get all those people moved out to Kladanj, where they

24 could be looked after?

25 A. People from the rear services company were not together with the

Page 9412

1 corps personnel. From time to time, there would be a task which required

2 additional assistance, and that's when we would be called in to provide

3 that additional assistance.

4 Q. So from time to time you did provide additional assistance to the

5 corps in the movement of the Muslim population. Is that correct?

6 A. No. There was no special need for us to do that. The corps had

7 its own organisation, and there was nothing for us to do there, nothing

8 special for us to do there.

9 Q. Well, I think you've said you provided two buses on the 12th of

10 July to help transport the Muslims. Is that true what you said yesterday?

11 Did you provide two buses that had been mobilised by the Bratunac Brigade

12 to help transport the Muslim population?

13 A. There was an order to do that -- to do so.

14 Q. Well, I'm sure there was orders to do all of this, wasn't there?

15 A. In this particular case, there was an order for the buses to be

16 provided.

17 Q. So in the situation for these two buses, you assisted the corps in

18 the job to get the Muslims moved out to Kladanj, as you were ordered.

19 A. That's what Mladic promised to the Muslims, and for us it was an

20 order.

21 Q. So the answer is: You did assist the corps and the Main Staff in

22 moving the Muslims out with these two buses. Correct?

23 A. The 12th of July, but not later than that.

24 Q. Okay. Well, let's stay with the 12th for now. You also were

25 shown a lot of documents, and I don't really want to go over them, these

Page 9413

1 fuel documents, many of which were written in handwriting that you

2 recognised. Is that right?

3 A. Yes. I did recognise them. They are reports.

4 Q. And so in respect to accounting for the fuel used in the

5 transportation operation, the Bratunac Brigade played a significant role

6 in accounting for this valuable fuel that was used in the operation.

7 Isn't that correct?

8 A. I have to clarify this. Yesterday I said that we had tried --

9 Q. If you could answer the question and then you can clarify --

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, Your Honour, objection Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well --

12 MR. KARNAVAS: The gentleman is trying to answer the question and

13 he's being interrupted, rudely I might add, by the Prosecutor. He's

14 entitled to give his answer.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 Witness, you may go on, please.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I was objecting to his answer as

18 non-responsive because there's nothing to clarify. I need an answer

19 before he can clarify. I would like a clarification, that's fine; but you

20 can't clarify a non-answer.

21 JUDGE LIU: Maybe the witness did not understand your question

22 quite well. Let's hear the clarification from this witness first.

23 Witness, you may answer that question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday I said that we had

25 accounted for the entry and exit of fuel, which doesn't imply that this

Page 9414

1 fuel was used, for example, for the transport of Muslims. The paperwork

2 accounting for the entry and exit of the fuel was what was asked from us

3 to do, and this is exactly what we did, the paperwork.


5 Q. Okay. But in any major operation that involves fuel, accounting

6 for that fuel is an important part of the overall operation, isn't it, so

7 the command knows how it was used, what was used, what wasn't used, that

8 none was stolen? Isn't the accounting an important part of any operation,

9 business, military, or otherwise?

10 A. Accounting is important in any case, because it justifies the use

11 of all the materiel and equipment. And from day one, our paperwork and

12 our accounting was in order in our brigade because it was our obligation.

13 Q. Absolutely. And we also saw that the accounting documents were

14 dated 12 and 13 July, when all this was going on. Right?

15 A. Yes. On the 12th of July, the Muslim population was gathered in

16 Potocari; it's a fact.

17 Q. So the people that were doing the accounting, I believe including

18 yourself, were on the ground at the time the fuel was being accepted,

19 delivered, passed out, so they were on the ground working and doing the

20 accounting at the time of the events. This wasn't some after-the-fact

21 post-accounting, looking over records. Your accounting was done from the

22 ground, where this activity was happening, wasn't it?

23 A. I've already explained that the fuel at the Vihor was dispensed by

24 Vihor staff in the Vihor parking lot at the entrance to Bratunac. And

25 also, the drivers from the corps were involved in that fueling operation.

Page 9415

1 And then, based on what they did, we recorded the fuel that was filled

2 into vehicles.

3 Q. And so you know that because you were on the ground observing that

4 and accounting for it. Either you or your staff; correct?

5 A. I'm sure I wasn't there. My assistant was informed, but he did

6 not need to be present. He was just provided with the paperwork that

7 would justify his subsequent accounting, and that was the procedure.

8 Q. Okay. Well, you talked a little bit yesterday about a statement

9 that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor back in 26 November 2001.

10 Thank you. And you've had a chance to go over that document because the

11 Defence showed it to you. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in that interview, did you try to be as truthful and as

14 correct as possible?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Okay. And you've pointed out one thing, which I'll get into

17 later, that you have changed. You admitted that you told the Office of

18 the Prosecutor that Mr. Blagojevic was in Potocari on the 12th, but you've

19 now testified that you were wrong on that point. Is that right? I'll get

20 into that a little bit later, but is there anything else that you want to

21 change of significance in your statement besides that point?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Let's --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come closer to the

25 microphones, please.

Page 9416


2 Q. The interpreters are having a little bit of a hard time hearing

3 you. If you could move your chair up a little bit, they've asked, so

4 you're a little closer to the mike. Thank you. Make yourself

5 comfortable, but this won't be too long. We're not going to be here all

6 day, I hope.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could provide the witness with a B/C/S copy

8 of his statement.

9 Q. I want to just go over some of the things you said, and I'll

10 direct you to certain parts of the statement. I -- we've tried to

11 highlight some of them, but don't -- you don't need to limit yourself to

12 the highlighting, you can, of course, look above or beyond to help

13 understand the context of it. Those highlights are just meant to attract

14 your attention.

15 Now, the first part I want to ask you about is -- it's page 12 of

16 the English and lines 13 through 19. And yours should be page 12, lines 7

17 through 13. And the question is asked: "Okay. The next thing you heard

18 about the evacuation or removal?"

19 And you say: "So in all those activities there were the rear

20 services organs of the corps that were doing their job. So for that part

21 of the operation, the assistant commander for the rear service on the

22 corps level would ask me, request from me something that he maybe did not

23 have at the time and I did have. The fact is that we provided a certain

24 number - I cannot recall exactly how many - a certain number of buses and

25 trucks for transportation of people."

Page 9417

1 Is that true?

2 A. I can clarify.

3 Q. And that's fine, but is that a true statement, first of all? And

4 you can always clarify any answer you give.

5 A. The statement is probably correct.

6 Q. Probably? Only probably?

7 A. I can explain. I can clarify.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. In the brigade we didn't have more than two buses or trucks. When

10 I said "we," I probably meant Bratunac, the buses that belonged to Vihor

11 as well as the lorries that belonged to Vihor which were mobilised by the

12 secretariat.

13 Q. Okay. And I think we'll get into that a little later, so let's go

14 on to the next section. And that should be, in the English, page 14, and

15 it should be for you page 14 lines 24 through 26. For us it should be

16 about lines 17 through 24. And you're talking about buses and trucks.

17 And the investigator asked you: "And where would you have got those buses

18 and trucks from?"

19 And you say: "In the brigade we had two buses and the rest we

20 took from the transportation company Vihor."

21 And I think that's what you testified to yesterday, that there

22 were two buses in the brigade and that the other vehicles you took from

23 Vihor and provided for this operation. Is that correct?

24 A. When I said "we," I was probably referring to the Army of

25 Republika Srpska. I put myself in that role.

Page 9418

1 Q. Well, I can read to you what you said. You said: "In the

2 brigade, we had two buses."

3 So you're not talking in the VRS; you're talking in the brigade.

4 Right?

5 A. We were not entitled to that. We were -- we didn't have the right

6 to take any buses from Vihor ourselves.

7 Q. Well, they got mobilised.

8 A. Yes, by the corps command.

9 Q. And you were involved in that, getting the buses -- or the -- it

10 says: "The rest we took from the transportation company Vihor."

11 And you've just referred to the Bratunac Brigade, so it's you --

12 it's the brigade and the corps getting these vehicles from Vihor, isn't

13 it?

14 A. No. It was the corps that mobilised those buses pursuant to their

15 own request.

16 Q. So when you say "we," you're referring to the Drina Corps, even

17 though you're not -- you're a brigade guy. You know, that doesn't make

18 any sense. Can you explain that?

19 That's all right. We can go on.

20 If you could be shown what's been marked as D161. This is

21 something I -- it's a document that was shown to you yesterday, and I'm

22 hoping you have a better photocopy of the B/C/S version. Because we can

23 see on English that there's a little note on the bottom that says: "In

24 the original, items 18, 19, 20, 21, and 22 are connected with a curve

25 brace above which stands: Vihor, 13 July."

Page 9419

1 Now, in the copy that unfortunately was used yesterday, that was

2 hard to see. And we've got the original document that if I could show you

3 that I think it would be most helpful.

4 So first of all, looking at that original document, do you

5 recognise the handwriting?

6 A. No.

7 Q. This was found in the Bratunac Brigade during the search in 1998.

8 A. No, I don't recognise it -- actually, these are two different

9 handwritings.

10 Q. Yeah, I think you're right. And if you could look from 18 to 22,

11 do you see that little -- that mark? And it says: "Vihor."

12 What does that mean?

13 A. Actually, these are three different handwritings. The upper part,

14 the black ink, is one handwriting; the second one is from 14 to 17; and

15 the third one is from 18 to 22. Yes, I can see the marking "Vihor" and

16 the date. I suppose this fuel was filled in the Vihor company, and

17 somebody must have added this on.

18 Q. Well, and you -- as I just read over your statement, you said:

19 "We had two buses and the rest we took from the transportation company

20 Vihor."

21 Would these five entries be the buses or vehicles that were taken

22 from Vihor?

23 A. I said that we didn't take them, that it was the corps that took

24 them. But these are not buses. It says here "TAM 130, FAP 1616," and

25 those are not buses.

Page 9420

1 Q. I thank you for clarifying that. You're correct. I should not

2 have said buses.

3 Okay. Let's go to another section, and it's page 15 on the

4 English. And it should be page 15 on yours as well. I'm sorry, I don't

5 have an actual line number. And Mr. Manning, the investigator, asked you:

6 "What about" -- line 3: "What about fuel for those vehicles?"

7 And you say: "The fuel was provided from the corps and all other

8 materiel was provided by the corps."

9 And the investigator says: "Did the UNPROFOR provide fuel as

10 well?"

11 And you say: "Yes, some. Yes, I cannot tell you how much, which

12 part UNPROFOR provided in total. But the DutchBat soldiers gave us one

13 tanker, one cistern with fuel."

14 The investigator says: "Did they give it to you personally, your

15 troops personally?"

16 And you say: "Yes, the brigade. Our brigade took that fuel. We

17 dumped the fuel in the cistern of the tanker truck of the transportation

18 Vihor company."

19 Is that correct?

20 A. I explained yesterday: Colonel Acamovic asked from me to find a

21 solution for this huge quantity of fuel. It was my suggestion, and this

22 is what was indeed done, to dump all that fuel in the tanks of the Vihor

23 company.

24 Q. Right. And the Bratunac Brigade did that, working with the corps,

25 according to your statement. Is that right?

Page 9421

1 A. Colonel Acamovic asked me to do it, and I obeyed. I did it.

2 Q. Well, did he ask or order?

3 A. A superior officer issues orders.

4 Q. Okay. So this is a true statement that I just read?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: With the qualifications of the explanations that he

6 just gave.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, we could sense that by ourself, Mr. Karnavas.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

9 JUDGE LIU: But -- yes.


11 Q. So what I said -- what you said, excuse me, to us in Banja Luka

12 was correct, and you're adding to it today?

13 A. Mr. Manning, the investigator, put pressure on me, and I felt very

14 uncomfortable at the moment. I did not have the opportunity to explain

15 all the details. The essence of the matter is that the fuel was secured

16 by Colonel Acamovic through Dutch -- through the DutchBat. And he asked

17 me to find a solution for storing this huge quantity of fuel, and I found

18 a solution. This is what I did.

19 Q. You said: "Our brigade took that fuel. We dumped the fuel in the

20 cistern of the tanker truck of the transportation company Vihor."

21 Is that true?

22 A. I said already, yes.

23 Q. All right. Let's go now to the English page 17. And for you it

24 should be page 18, about lines 5 through 8. And Mr. Manning says: "I

25 don't know whether it's simply a misunderstanding, but I'm asking you, the

Page 9422

1 transportation of people - and it's obvious to both of us who we're

2 speaking of - but I want you to tell me."

3 And you say: "Okay. So the fuel was used for the combat

4 activities around Srebrenica and the transportation of the people that I

5 mentioned earlier; women, children, and elderly."

6 Mr. Manning says: "The Muslim population of Srebrenica and

7 Potocari?"

8 And you say: "Yes."

9 Is that correct, a true statement?

10 A. What fuel are you referring to? The 30 tonnes of fuel. Is that

11 right?

12 Q. I think you're -- that's what's mentioned above. You're talking

13 about, as far as I can tell, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the

14 fuel that you got from UNPROFOR and put into the Vihor cistern.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I don't mean to object but --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: -- for proper context perhaps we could go a page

18 earlier and let the gentleman at least for his own purposes before

19 answering any questions, starting perhaps as early as line 22, page 16, on

20 the English version, where the document with the ERN number of 0067-1769

21 is presented to him. And perhaps -- that was on page 16. It would be

22 page 16, I believe line 24, on the Srpski version. And then he could just

23 -- because I think we are losing some context, because it talks about the

24 30 plus the 52.000 litres. So I think in all fairness to the witness, he

25 should be given an opportunity to read that entire section so he can make

Page 9423

1 sure that he gives us a full and complete and honest answer.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I believe that --

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President -- I'm sorry for interrupting.

4 JUDGE LIU: I believe that at the very beginning of the

5 cross-examination on this statement, the Prosecution already said that the

6 witness could read certain pages and consider the question in the context

7 of the whole statement. But thank you very much to point out that place.

8 Witness, you have the statement at your hand. Right?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.

10 JUDGE LIU: You could read the specific pages the Defence counsel

11 pointed out and then answer that question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was giving this statement, I

13 had no idea -- namely, I had data on the consumed quantities. I had no

14 idea where it had been consumed and in which way. Only after I had

15 familiarised myself with the documentation, I realised that the fuel had

16 not been actually consumed but was just accounted for, had been actually

17 passed through our documentation. Obviously, this fuel which we received

18 from the Dutch Battalion could not have been spent for combat operations

19 around Srebrenica, because the combat operations ended on the 11th. It

20 could have been used to transport Muslims, and it was actually received

21 for that purpose, as far as I gathered from Colonel Acamovic.


23 Q. Yes. And I think you've said that someplace before, that this

24 fuel was received to transport the Muslims, and you tell us in this

25 statement that at least some of it was in fact used to transport the

Page 9424

1 Muslims. Is that right?

2 A. This fuel we did -- we received from the Dutch Battalion. We got

3 it from them in order to transport the Muslims; that is clear.

4 Q. Okay. If you could go -- if we could go to page 18 in the

5 English. It should be page 18, lines 18 to 20 for you in the B/C/S.

6 Mr. Manning asked: "How could you have gotten fuel from Vihor, Gradina,

7 and the Bratunac municipality? What is the mechanisms?"

8 And you say: "Considering that the corps could not provide enough

9 quantities of fuel or food for the brigade, not only during that period

10 but also earlier, so we as a brigade asked for the assistance from the

11 companies and from the municipality so the quantities of fuel, food,

12 cigarettes that we were lacking in the brigade that the corps could not

13 provide for us, we received from the companies in Bratunac."

14 Is that a correct statement?

15 A. In this way, we obtained provisions of food and fuel for the

16 regular activities for the life and work of the brigade.

17 Q. So the brigade had the ability to go to the municipality and get

18 materiel on a normal basis?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. We go down the page a little bit and Mr. Manning says:

21 "You were able to provide some buses and trucks and fuel for the

22 transportation of the civilians. Who drove the trucks and buses that you

23 provided?"

24 And you say: "So not all the buses and trucks we provided. The

25 corps also provided buses and trucks."

Page 9425

1 That's correct. That's basically what you have been telling us,

2 isn't it?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Okay. And then Mr. Manning says: "The ones that you provided."

5 And you say: "Yes."

6 And Mr. Manning says: "Who drove them?"

7 And you say: "The drivers from Vihor company, from the

8 transportation company."

9 Is that right?

10 A. The buses and the trucks that had been mobilised from Vihor to

11 transport the Muslims were -- was only logical they should be driven by

12 Vihor's drivers.

13 Q. So that's a true statement?

14 A. It is true that these buses and trucks which had been mobilised

15 were driven by Vihor drivers.

16 Q. Okay. And the next question is: "And the buses and trucks that

17 were provided by the brigade, who drove those?"

18 And you say: "We had our drivers."

19 And Mr. Manning says: "And they would be from which section of

20 the brigade?"

21 And you say: "The rear service company of the brigade."

22 So the buses -- the two buses that have been spoken of earlier,

23 the people that drove those buses, were they from the rear services

24 company of the brigade?

25 A. The buses that had been mobilised, the two buses in the brigade

Page 9426

1 were driven by drivers belonging to the rear services company.

2 Q. All right. Okay. If you could now go to page 20. It's page 20

3 in the English as well. Lines 21 through 24 in the B/C/S. And around 10

4 through 16. Mr. Manning is asking you about: "What else did you do that

5 day?"

6 You say: "I can't tell precisely what else I could have done that

7 day."

8 And Mr. Manning says: "Did you -- you explained to me that you

9 had some dealings with your commander on the 12th. When was the last time

10 you saw him on the 12th and where?"

11 And you say: "It's been a long time ago. I can't remember. It's

12 very difficult just to remember one particular day. We were in contact

13 all day, but we were not all the time together. But from the morning

14 until the evening, we were all the time in contact. And one was at one

15 duty and the other was at another duty."

16 So this says that you were in contact all day with Colonel

17 Blagojevic. Not personal contact, but -- is that true?

18 A. Well, what I mean by contact is that we talked on the telephone.

19 If the need arose, we were there in the command; and if the need arose, we

20 would get in touch in this way.

21 Q. Well, this says that you were actually in contact with him, either

22 by the phone or personally, all day. And we know this was a very busy day

23 and it would have been normal for the rear services officer to be in close

24 contact with his commander during this day. So my question is: Were you

25 in contact with him off and on all day, either by phone or otherwise?

Page 9427

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, if the gentleman could be given some time.

3 I know that he was advised and told that he could look at it, but the

4 questions are coming like this. The gentleman could be given some time so

5 he could read from 20 all the way to 22, at least all the way -- yeah, to

6 22, end of 22, be given time, because I believe he's asked a series of

7 questions with respect to that, so we can have a more complete answer. In

8 the event that he's not given that opportunity, I want to make it

9 abundantly clear through re-direct examination I'm going to go through

10 each and every line where I believe more context should be placed in these

11 questions.

12 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, you could raise your objections, but

13 don't make any gestures, especially to make some sounds out of it.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I wasn't aware I was, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: This is a courtroom, not a coffee stop.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I wasn't aware, I apologise.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course the witness has the opportunity to read

18 this statement, but it's time for a break, Mr. McCloskey. We might have a

19 break now and during the break I hope the witness could take advantage of

20 that time and read the statement.

21 Is that all right, Witness?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 We'll resume at quarter to 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

Page 9428

1 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, did you read your statement during the

3 break?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to answer the question?

6 Or, Mr. McCloskey, you may repeat your question.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. This was the area that we talked about on page 20, your lines 21

9 through, roughly, 24. And English page 20, 13 through 16. Where you say:

10 "It's difficult to remember one particular day, but we were in contact all

11 day but we were not all the time together. But from the morning to the

12 evening, we were all the time in contact. And one was at one duty and the

13 other was at the other duty."

14 So is that a fair and truthful statement that you made?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Okay. And on the same subject, it's page 28 about 11 through 16

17 on the English. It's around 13 through 15 in the B/C/S. And Mr. Manning

18 says: "Okay. A simple question of communication. Did your commander

19 have a portable radio, a Motorola or similar?"

20 And you say: "Yes, he probably did."

21 Mr. Manning says: "And if necessary, you could contact him on the

22 radio or telephone or some other means during that period?"

23 And you say: "Yes, yes."

24 So the period we are talking about, is that a true statement for

25 July 12 and 13, that you could contact him if you needed to?

Page 9429

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I clarify this for

2 the benefit of the Prosecutor. On all these pages, from 20 to 28, he

3 insisted for me to say that I was with the commander; I never confirmed

4 this. I just said it was a possibility for us to get in touch via the

5 communication means if the need arose.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, there is no misunderstanding on that point.


8 Q. So like you say here, you're able to get a hold of him when you

9 needed him during those days, 12 and 13?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Let's go on to another subject. And this is about what you

12 tell us about what you see when you're in Potocari. And if we could start

13 with page 29, 14 -- line about 14 in the English. Oddly enough, it's

14 about the same line in the B/C/S. And I'll just read it.

15 Mr. Manning says: "Okay. When you were in Potocari on the 12th,

16 you saw the Muslim civilians. Who was guarding those people? Who was

17 providing security for those people, apart from DutchBat?"

18 And you say: "Our police."

19 And Mr. Manning says: "What police? Military police? Civilian

20 police? Special police?"

21 And you say: "Mostly military police. Military police. Brigade

22 had its police and the corps had their own police."

23 And Mr. Manning says: "And do I take it from that that it was

24 Bratunac Brigade military police?"

25 And you say: "Both, Bratunac Brigade and the corps."

Page 9430

1 So when you were in Potocari, did you see both the Bratunac

2 Brigade military police and the corps military police, like you say here?

3 A. [No interpretation]

4 Q. And they were providing security for the Muslims, like you say

5 here?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Let's go to page 30. English it should be starting about

8 line 4. It should be about line 5 -- roughly line 5 in the B/C/S.

9 Mr. Manning says: "But which ones did you recognise from that

10 day?"

11 And you say: "They were all there that day. The majority of them

12 were there. That was their main task. Maybe the duty officer remained at

13 the brigade, but ..."

14 And Mr. Manning says: "Okay. At some stage the men that did

15 remain in Potocari were separated from the women and children. Are you

16 aware of that?"

17 And you say: "No."

18 Before I get to that separation question, maybe you should look a

19 little bit between my last thing I read to you and that first one so we

20 can tell what unit we're talking about. And Mr. Manning says: "But which

21 ones did you recognise from that day?"

22 As you can see on page 29, one of the things Mr. Manning says is:

23 "Taking back to the crowd of people, the bread, the incidents, the

24 Bratunac Brigade military police are there, you would have seen some of

25 the Bratunac military police you recognise. You lived there all your

Page 9431

1 life. Who did you recognise?"

2 "We met everyone, so it's irrelevant whether I met. I cannot

3 tell you whether I met that military policeman there or I met him in

4 Bratunac or I met him somewhere else. It's difficult. You see those

5 people every day."

6 And then he says: "But which ones did you recognise from that

7 day?"

8 And you say: "They were all there that day. The majority of them

9 were there. That was their main task. Maybe the duty officer remained at

10 the brigade, but ..."

11 So you're telling Mr. Manning there that the majority of the

12 Bratunac Brigade military police were in Potocari that day, on the 12th.

13 Is that correct?

14 A. The Bratunac police, yes.

15 Q. The Bratunac Brigade military police. Is that what you're talking

16 -- that's what you're referring to?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So you stand by this statement that the majority of the -- you saw

19 the majority of the Bratunac Brigade military police in Potocari on 12

20 July?

21 A. I should just like to say this: Item 6 -- well, probably all of

22 them were there. Most of them, the majority was there.

23 Q. So that's true. The majority -- you believe the majority of them

24 were there?

25 A. Probably.

Page 9432

1 Q. And you know there were about 33 Bratunac Brigade military police

2 on the roster of July 1995? Does that sound about right?

3 A. It's possible.

4 Q. All right. Let's now go to page 30, lines 1 through 6. And it's

5 -- on yours it should be page 31, lines 11 through 18.

6 A. Where is this?

7 Q. Actually, it's -- should be -- I'm sorry. I gave you the wrong

8 page. It should be -- it's page 30, lines 5 through 10. Sorry. That's

9 the one we've already gone over.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Your Honour.

11 Q. Let's go to page 33, and it should be page 33, line 8 for you, and

12 it's line 7 for us. And you just say: "The military police were there

13 for sure."

14 So there's no doubt in your mind that the Bratunac Brigade

15 military police were there on that date. Correct?

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 Q. Okay. Now, the next reference I want to go to is -- it should be

18 page 50 on yours, lines -- around 2 to 11. On the English it's page 52.

19 But let's start at -- I guess at about line 4. Mr. Manning says: "And

20 who was directing them to do this? Who was directing where the vehicles

21 to go?"

22 And you say: "I don't know about that. Unofficially, I don't

23 know. I mean, I heard, but I think it is a misunderstanding in

24 translation. I heard that they were supposed to go to Kladanj, and that's

25 what I -- that was the separation line where we could drop them, the

Page 9433

1 Muslims, so they could go towards Tuzla."

2 Mr. Manning says: "But you said before that the police would be

3 directing the buses where to park and where to turn."

4 And you say: "Yes."

5 And Mr. Manning says: "And you saw that happening?"

6 And you say: "Yes."

7 And Mr. Manning says: "What sort of police were they?"

8 And you say: "Our military police."

9 And Mr. Manning says: "By 'our' you mean Bratunac Brigade?"

10 And you say: "Yes."

11 So simply, you're telling Mr. Manning that you saw the Bratunac

12 Brigade military police directing the buses where to park and where to

13 turn. So is that true? Did you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. And you also told Mr. Manning that you saw the protection

16 -- soldiers from the Protection Regiment in Potocari that day. Do you

17 recall seeing the -- any Protection Regiment soldiers in Potocari on the

18 12th? I can point it out if you want to help -- your recollection

19 refreshed.

20 A. You want to help me with the page?

21 Q. Page 35, line 20 to 22.

22 A. Yes, that's what I said.

23 Q. So did you see soldiers from the Protection Regiment in Potocari

24 on the 12th?

25 A. Yes, that's what I said.

Page 9434

1 Q. And you said it was something like the 65th paratroopers or

2 something like that. You remember the number 65 as the designation for

3 that Protection Regiment?

4 A. It was Mr. Dean Manning who mentioned the 65 Protection Regiment.

5 Q. Right. He mentioned it first, and then you said: "I'm not sure.

6 We just called them simply Protection Regiment. That sounds like

7 something 65th paratroopers in Serbia, maybe you mixed it up."

8 So does the 65 ring any bells at all?

9 A. I don't remember, no.

10 Q. Now, the Protection Regiment you're talking about, you say that

11 it's a Main Staff unit. Right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did they have a base that was located near Bratunac? Konjevic

14 Polje/Nova Kasaba area?

15 A. Maybe they were in Nova Kasaba. I can't remember exactly, but it

16 does ring a bell, Nova Kasaba.

17 Q. Okay. Now, I want to ask you about something you said yesterday

18 when you were testifying about what you saw in Potocari. And I've got on

19 page 53 of your testimony Mr. Karnavas asked you: "Now, did you see any

20 members of the Bratunac Brigade there, whether they were soldiers or

21 military police?"

22 And your answer was: "There were members of the Bratunac Brigade

23 there."

24 And the question was: "Okay. Do you recall what they were doing,

25 if anything?"

Page 9435

1 And you said: "Well, at that moment they were providing security.

2 They were engaged in separating soldiers from the Muslim population."

3 What did you mean when you said: "They were engaged in separating

4 soldiers from the Muslim population"?

5 A. I can't find it here in the statement, but I can explain, however,

6 no problem. I can clarify.

7 Q. Let me just explain. I'm sorry. I'm going from yesterday's

8 testimony, not from what you told us in Banja Luka. So you can just put

9 that aside.

10 A. Well, then, you mentioned page 53. I've been looking for it. I

11 can't find it.

12 Q. Sorry. I was directing the other folks to the trial transcript.

13 I should have been clear.

14 So can you tell us what you meant when you said: "They were

15 engaged in separating soldiers from the Muslim population."

16 A. This is what I said: The DutchBat was engaged in the separation

17 and so were our police. All of us who were there at the moment, including

18 myself, who was one of the soldiers, we wanted to prevent people from

19 crossing a certain line that was set.

20 Q. Okay. Well, we know that the Dutch strung a big -- some kind of

21 tape that separated the population from some of the VRS soldiers and some

22 of the Dutch soldiers. Is that the separation you are talking about?

23 A. The DutchBat soldiers did put this band. There were a lot of us

24 there, soldiers, officers, people who were just curious. And the military

25 police had a task to preserve order, to provide security, to provide

Page 9436

1 security for that operation that was underway.

2 Q. I understand. Did you see able-bodied Muslim men separated from

3 their families as their families were being loaded on buses?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So when you said you were separating soldiers from the Muslim

6 population, you meant separating Dutch soldiers, VRS soldiers from the big

7 Muslim population?

8 A. The police?

9 Q. Yeah.

10 A. I said the police was there to look after the order.

11 Q. Right, the military police of the Bratunac Brigade.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see any military-aged or able-bodied Muslim men amongst

14 the big crowd of people in Potocari while you were there during that hour

15 or hour and a half?

16 A. Those were mostly elderly people, women, and children. I didn't

17 see able-bodied men among them.

18 Q. And you were there for an hour and a half, in that area among the

19 people, roughly?

20 A. Not among the people, not in the crowd. I was on the other side.

21 Q. You had a good look at the people on the other side of the tape?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. You saw some people being loaded onto buses and trucks from that

24 crowd?

25 A. Well, yes. Women, children, the elderly were walking towards the

Page 9437

1 buses in some sort of a column.

2 Q. We have heard horrendous evidence that at that time male members,

3 able-bodied members, were taken away from their families --

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. We've heard no evidence that anybody

5 was taken away when General Mladic was there. The gentleman testified

6 that when he was there, General Mladic was there. I would like to see any

7 footage or any transcript that shows that when General Mladic was there,

8 the males were being separated. That occurred much later. So the

9 possibility exists that while he was there none of that was happening.

10 And I think if -- we can go over this over and over and over --

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a very fine argument and if he wants to

12 make it, that's fine. Why he needs to make it in front of the witness is

13 beyond me.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I don't think the Prosecution has

15 finished his question yet. Maybe he will set a time frame there.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: He hasn't.

17 JUDGE LIU: No, he hasn't finished his question yet, from the

18 transcript, at least.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.


21 Q. My question was: We've heard some horrendous evidence that at the

22 time on 12 July in the afternoon, male members of the family, able-bodied

23 men, were separated from their families, to the horror and misery of their

24 families. Did you see any of that?

25 A. Mr. Prosecutor, you are telling me what you've heard. I myself

Page 9438

1 didn't see it.

2 Q. That's all I was asking. Okay. Let's go to page -- we can go

3 back to the book that I originally gave you just briefly. And if you

4 could go to page 34, about lines 17 through 22. A person named Mark

5 Vlasic that was in the interview. This is on line 18 of page 34 of the

6 English.

7 "You mentioned that Blagojevic was in Potocari on the 12th. In

8 fact, he was there with you when you were there."

9 And you say: "That's what I said."

10 And Mr. Vlasic says: "Okay. So while you were there, Blagojevic

11 was there. Both of you saw the military police who were there?"

12 And you say: "Yes."

13 You've had a chance to read this. Does this accurately reflect

14 what you told Mr. Vlasic that day?

15 A. No. It's not correct.

16 Q. Well, I'm not asking right now whether the substance of it is

17 correct, but is that in fact what you said? You see the B/C/S words

18 written down there. Do you have any reason to think you didn't say those

19 words?

20 A. I've said that I made a mistake, and I apologise to Mr. Blagojevic

21 for the mistake that I made. I was put in a situation where I succumbed

22 to the pressure and I said this, but it's simply not correct. I did not

23 see Colonel Blagojevic there on the 12th of July, 1995.

24 Q. But you did in fact tell us that, as it states in this document.

25 Correct?

Page 9439

1 A. Well, I've said that I made a mistake. My answer was wrong and I

2 don't see a problem here at the moment.

3 Q. You told us then that you were with him in Potocari. Not just

4 that you saw him there but you were with him there, didn't you?

5 A. I was not in Potocari with Colonel Blagojevic.

6 Q. I know that's what you're saying now, but you told us you were

7 with him in Potocari, didn't you?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, again, this has been asked and

9 answered. I don't object. I just hope that the Court will give me the

10 latitude and demonstrate the patience it is demonstrating right now as we

11 go over these questions over and over again, because I think that he's

12 answered the question. Now, if he's going to ask the questions over and

13 over again, I would like sufficient latitude on re-direct.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, I think anyway the witness has

15 answered that question. Or if not, the implication is there.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, he answered the question that he told

17 us he saw Blagojevic in Potocari. He has not answered the question

18 whether or not he told us that he was with Blagojevic in Potocari.

19 JUDGE LIU: I understand that. But he said that he's wrong. The

20 precondition is that he told you about that in the previous interviews.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I know. Of course I want the Trial Chamber

22 to understand what he told us, but I think that's clear. So I won't go

23 with it any further.

24 Q. Sir, after telling us that Mr. Blagojevic was in Potocari, did you

25 make any effort to contact us to correct that?

Page 9440

1 A. You did not send me a copy of my statement, although I requested

2 that via Mr. Trivun Jovicic. I don't know what his position is. I never

3 received a copy of my statement, although I did ask for one.

4 Q. Mr. Jovicic is the Republika Srpska liaison officer to this

5 Tribunal, and we never received your request that I'm aware of. And if we

6 did, then we failed to provide it.

7 But my question is: Did you ever make an effort to inform us that

8 you had made a mistake when putting Mr. Blagojevic in Potocari?

9 A. I was not aware of having said that. This interview lasted a

10 whole day, and I just couldn't remember what I said. For example, last

11 year in April Mr. Trivun Jovicic asked me to give another statement.

12 Since I am entitled to receive a copy of my first statement, Mr. Jovicic

13 promised I would get that, but he never contacted me again. I really

14 wanted to see what I had said during the nine hours of the interview that

15 I gave.

16 Q. After you made that statement to us, did you have a chance to talk

17 to Mr. Blagojevic on the telephone or in some other way about the

18 statement you had given to us?

19 A. I really don't know. I can't remember when Mr. Blagojevic was

20 arrested, and this statement I gave on the 26th. And I really can't

21 remember whether Colonel Blagojevic had been at large at the time. If

22 this happened after he was arrested, my statement I mean, then obviously I

23 couldn't contact him.

24 Q. Okay. When was the first time you told anyone that Mr. Blagojevic

25 was not at Potocari?

Page 9441

1 A. I really don't remember who was it that I said that to.

2 Q. Well, did you say it to Defence counsel, which is perfectly

3 appropriate, in preparing for your testimony?

4 A. When I spoke with my associates and when I looked at the TV

5 footage, I realised that I didn't see Colonel Blagojevic there. And this

6 was confirmed to me by my associates. And they told me that

7 Mr. Blagojevic just wasn't there, that he was in the command. And then it

8 was that I realised that I actually hadn't seen him in Potocari.

9 Q. Who were these associates that told you he wasn't there?

10 A. My associates told me that he was in the brigade command. This is

11 what I had just said.

12 Q. Right. But who were the associates? What people told you this?

13 A. For example Milomir Stanojevic, Dragan Josipovic, his

14 associate in the headquarters.

15 Q. So when you interviewed with us, did you think you were on video?

16 A. I didn't see myself on video.

17 Q. But did you think you were?

18 A. Mr. Manning showed me a video footage in Banja Luka. I could see

19 a lot of officers. And then I realised that I couldn't see Blagojevic.

20 However, this statement was given under pressure. I gave in to the

21 pressure, and I made a mistake.

22 Q. But did you think you were on video when you answered

23 Mr. Manning's questions? Did you think you were on video in Potocari on

24 the 12th of July when you answered his questions?

25 A. No. I didn't think that. I didn't even know how much of the

Page 9442

1 video footage there was. I didn't know who was filming the situation, and

2 I just was shown some of it. I believe that soldiers of the DutchBat also

3 had cameras and they were filming. Whether they did it officially or

4 whether they did it with their own private cameras, I don't know. In any

5 case, they were filming what was going on at this what I called separation

6 line.

7 Q. So you felt there was a whole lot of film of Potocari that you

8 hadn't seen during -- when you were -- when you gave us that statement?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now, going over to the 13th, we've seen some documents

11 relating to the accounting of the fuel. I won't go over those. You've

12 told us the two Bratunac Brigade buses were pulled out of the Muslim

13 transportation operation and provided for the chief of staff and his folks

14 to go towards Bracan. Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And when did those two buses come back?

17 A. I can't remember. It was a long time ago.

18 Q. Do you know about the huge convoy of buses and trucks that was

19 lined up in the middle of town in Bratunac on the morning of the 14th of

20 July, the day after the last Muslims were transported out of Potocari?

21 A. I know that there were convoys on the 12th and on the 13th. I'm

22 not sure about the 14th, but if this is what you say, then okay. But I'm

23 not sure. On those days, there were a lot of buses. The whole thing

24 started on the 12th, continued through the 13th. Whether any of them were

25 left there on the 14th, I can't remember.

Page 9443

1 Q. Well, I don't want you to take my word for it. I want you to go

2 back to your memory. You've told us you were in and around the command

3 and this area during this time period. You were around on the 14th,

4 weren't you?

5 A. I was around. I was around, but I can't remember all the dates.

6 For example, sending people to the area of Bracani was a simple task. The

7 commander was given an order to inform me, I informed my associates what

8 needed to be done, and the procedure was simple: Buses, food, and the

9 rest, and I just left it at that. And it was their job to carry the order

10 through. And that's what I did.

11 Q. Where did you spend the night on the 13th of July, that second day

12 that the Muslim population was transported out of Potocari, in fact the

13 day that it was finished that evening?

14 A. In my own apartment, in the centre of Bratunac.

15 Q. How close to the Hotel Fontana?

16 A. Across the road from it, some 50 metres from it.

17 Q. In what direction?

18 A. What do you mean by the direction?

19 Q. North? South? East? West? South-west? North-east?

20 A. Okay. Orientation. My apartment is to the south or south-west

21 from Fontana. It is at the crossroads in the centre of Bratunac.

22 Q. Okay. Well, that night, that afternoon and that night of 13 July

23 that you spent the night there, this Court has heard evidence that there

24 were many, many buses and trucks full of Muslim men parked in lines

25 throughout the town of Bratunac, some in front of the Vuk Karadzic school

Page 9444

1 complex, some in front of Vihor, some in front of the brigade command, and

2 that there were literally thousands of Muslim men of military age that

3 were in the town that night. Does this help your recollection at all?

4 A. I didn't see it. I heard this from people and from my sons, that

5 things of this kind were happening. But however, when one carries out

6 such activities during the day for a whole day, one gets tired, one has to

7 go to bed. I didn't see this. I didn't watch this. I had no reason to.

8 Q. Well, these vehicles, these buses, these trucks, it is the

9 position of the Prosecution that those are the same buses and trucks that

10 were used to move the population out of Potocari, some of those same buses

11 and trucks that were filled up from fuel that was organised by you and

12 others. And that on the morning of the 14th July, some convoy, at least a

13 kilometre, a kilometre and a half long, with all those thousands of

14 Muslims in it, took off towards Zvornik. All those buses and trucks

15 needed a lot of very expensive, very valuable fuel. They would have been

16 filled up probably at the Vihor garage, at the Bratunac Brigade fuel

17 station that we've heard about, and the logistics officer might have heard

18 about this in some respect. Can you tell us anything about this?

19 A. I do not have a single document to the effect that the fuel was

20 taken on the 14th. I do have such documentation for the 13th, but not the

21 14th.

22 Q. So you can't tell us a thing about it from your memory?

23 A. No, I can't.

24 Q. Do you know that the thousands of Muslims in that convoy --

25 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object, Your Honour. This is

Page 9445

1 irrelevant, what happened to them. He answered: I didn't see it, I

2 didn't watch it, I had no reason to. He was asked about the fueling, and

3 he said nothing, that he didn't know anything about it. Now he wants to

4 go into this line about what happened to these people. What is the

5 relevance with respect to this particular witness and his involvement?

6 This is nothing but prejudicial.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, the witness himself is from

8 Bratunac, and I believe that -- I haven't seen the follow-up questions

9 yet, but I believe that Mr. Karnavas [sic] will ask about the destination

10 of this witness, whether -- the destination of those victims, whether this

11 witness knows or not. It's a reasonable question.

12 You may proceed.


14 Q. Do you know that these thousands of Muslims were taken up to the

15 Zvornik area and murdered?

16 A. I heard this later and I read about it in the papers and it was

17 also reported on television. But at the time I didn't know because we,

18 the members of the brigade, did not take part in it. We had no say as to

19 where they would be transported to. Mladic said they would be taken in

20 the direction of Tuzla, whether that was to be via Kladanj or Zvornik, I

21 didn't know. And I had no idea who would be making the decision.

22 Q. Do you know that the Bratunac Brigade military police led the

23 convoy that took these people to their deaths? Two members of the

24 Bratunac military police were at the Pilica school when a busload of

25 Muslims were shot and killed with automatic weapons. You never heard

Page 9446

1 anything about any of that?

2 A. I did not know that.

3 Q. And you have no idea where the fuel came from that went into all

4 these buses and trucks or who put them in there that morning?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Asked and answered, first of all. And second of

6 all, the Prosecutor now is testifying. Where is there evidence that any

7 fuel was being put in those buses on the morning of the 14th? It's just a

8 pure assumption. I can understand the gentleman is angry after seven

9 years of working on the case, but we've gone far enough on this line of

10 questioning. Where is the proof that on the morning of the 14th buses

11 were actually fueled? If he has it, he can show it to the gentleman.

12 They could have been fueled on the 12th, they could have been fueled on

13 the 13th. Obviously, they needed fueling.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I can respond to that.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: First of all, asked and answered is not a proper

17 objection on cross-examination.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I beg to differ on this one.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And it can be, if it gets to the point where it's

20 argumentative and the question is not needed to be asked, but on

21 cross-examination to make a point or to test a witness, it is perfectly

22 appropriate to ask a question again. And unless I say it crosses the line

23 where we've all had enough, then it's perfectly appropriate. It's not a

24 proper objection.

25 Secondly, I don't think there's anything wrong with that question.

Page 9447

1 I mean, these buses had to have had fuel. And we know from the facts of

2 the case all the work they were doing on the 12th and 13th.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think to save time there's no need to repeat

4 the same question again and again. I think both parties have to be aware

5 of that. And secondly, I believe that the witness already answered that

6 question, unless you make some differences with previous questions.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Did you ever get any information that the fuel records for this --

9 for the 14th were destroyed?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection to this. It assumes that they were

11 destroyed.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, during the cross-examination the

13 party who is conducting the cross-examination could ask any questions that

14 are possible. We have the witness here. He could answer that question by

15 himself.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, perhaps Mr. Karnavas has

17 forgotten, but we do have a long list of documents that were, in fact,

18 destroyed. And I don't know what's on it, but I know it's been proven in

19 this case that documents were destroyed, so it's a perfectly reasonable

20 question.

21 Q. Did you hear anything about documents, fuel documents, getting

22 destroyed?

23 A. No, we never destroyed any documents about refueling or fuel, or

24 we never destroyed any documents on any materiel or equipment. I never

25 got any such orders.

Page 9448

1 Q. And you don't know anything about the reburial of over a thousand

2 people from Glogova to Zeleni Jadar and other places in September and

3 October 1995?

4 A. As I said yesterday, I did hear about those activities, but I

5 assert that the Bratunac Brigade neither provided security for -- neither

6 provided the transportation means nor the fuel for those activities.

7 Q. So you do know about it?

8 A. It was said here yesterday that Nikolic reported -- informed the

9 command that he had undertaken those activities according to orders from

10 the VRS Main Staff.

11 Q. You said you didn't know anything about it.

12 A. Until that point, until the day when he informed us. Namely, I

13 didn't know why the operation was going on. I wasn't aware of it. I only

14 found out about it after Captain Nikolic had informed us about it at this

15 meeting.

16 Q. So you're now telling us that this meeting in October that's in

17 the meeting minutes where "asanacija" is referred to was in fact a

18 reburial of the bodies operation, as far as you know.

19 A. Captain Nikolic did not give us any explanations, and we didn't

20 ask him to clarify anything; why or what.

21 Q. Okay. If we could go back to your interview again. And this is

22 page 51, line 5. It's -- for you, it's page 49, line 1.

23 And Mr. Manning says: "As you said before, the buses and trucks

24 are being organised. The fuel is being organised from UNPROFOR, and

25 there's a large amount happening that day. There must be something that

Page 9449

1 sticks in your head --"

2 A. Excuse me for interrupting. Page 49, line -- which line?

3 Q. Try line 1, around line 1.

4 A. Oh, yes, I see it. All right.

5 Q. Okay.

6 "There must be something that sticks in your head. When you went

7 back to your headquarters, did you explain to Blagojevic what you had done

8 in relation to the trucks and buses? Did you explain about the 30.000

9 litres of fuel from UNPROFOR? Did he give you another task?"

10 And you: "I would rather inform about the buses and trucks and

11 the fuel the colonel in the rear service than Blagojevic himself."

12 Mr. Manning says: "And why is that?"

13 And you say: "We were just one unit under corps command, which

14 was in command of the operation, and the collection of buses and

15 everything was done by the corps."

16 Mr. Manning: "So therefore you would report back to the corps."

17 And you say: "That's logical, and I must have done it like that.

18 "Wouldn't you have also had to advise your commander, particularly

19 as you were using his resources?"

20 And you say: "Of course. After everyone else, then commander,

21 too. But the transportation itself we didn't organisation."

22 Do you stand by that statement today?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't have any further questions.

Page 9450

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 Any re-direct?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

5 Q. If we just go -- continue on a little bit on the same page. You

6 also state -- you were also asked: "Of course" -- no, you say --

7 "Wouldn't you also have to advise the commander?"

8 You say: "Yes." You say: "Of course. After everything, then

9 the commander, but the transportation itself we didn't organise."

10 Then the next question is: "You provided the equipment and the

11 fuel and the driver."

12 And your answer is: "Part of the vehicles that we had in our

13 possession. What we had on our disposal we put on disposal to the corps."

14 You stated that. Right?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Now, let me go back to the issue of mobilisation, because I think

17 it's an important concept. Can you go to Vihor and just simply take

18 vehicles from them?

19 A. Well, in this situation I knew that the mobilisation was being

20 done by the corps, so that there was no need for me to engage those buses

21 myself because the corps had already done it.

22 Q. But generally speaking, when you want to mobilise a bus from

23 Vihor, can you just show up there, announce yourself, and just take the

24 vehicle? Or is there a particular process that you would have to go

25 through?

Page 9451

1 A. In principle, there was a procedure to be observed, a process to

2 be observed. In some instances, we would do it on an internal, so to

3 speak, basis.

4 Q. Do you know Aleksandar Tesic?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. What's his position?

7 A. He was in charge of a section of a department in the Ministry of

8 National Defence.

9 Q. Do you know whether he would be involved in a process of

10 mobilisation?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is going beyond the scope.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Well within.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're not contesting the mobilisation --

16 MR. KARNAVAS: It sounded to me like he was. It sounded to me

17 like the suggestion was that he could just go there and take and use as he

18 pleased.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's what he said. He just said again sometimes

20 they could go and do things. We know the mobilisation process. He

21 suggested that the corps had already done it. Going back to Mr. Tesic and

22 the entire RS mobilisation process is beyond the scope.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well --

24 MR. KARNAVAS: With that concession, Your Honour, I'll move on.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please move on.

Page 9452


2 Q. You were asked a question about being -- about the commander being

3 well-informed. Do you recall that, early on, about how the commander was

4 always being well-informed? This was --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you a part of your statement.

7 It's on page 35 for us, line 10. And it would be line 34 for you, line 34

8 -- I mean page 34, line 34. And you're being asked a question by

9 Mr. Vlasic, a Mark Vlasic. And the question is --

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, objection.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's not proper on direct to just read to your

13 witness. You can provide it to the witness to refresh his recollection

14 and ask him about the subject; you can use it to impeach. But you can't

15 just go reading the statement and asking questions. That's improper.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: First of all, I'm entitled to rehabilitate the

17 witness. This is a form of rehabilitation. What the Prosecution has done

18 in their cross-examination is show that everybody reports to Blagojevic

19 and Blagojevic is kept well-informed. Here he's asked concretely about

20 Momir Nikolic, and the gentleman stated contrary with respect to Nikolic.

21 And yesterday, you will note, that I brought out the fact that the

22 gentleman had worked in the security sector.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you draw the attention of this

24 witness to certain lines and at certain pages, then you ask your question.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

Page 9453

1 JUDGE LIU: If you are not satisfied with that answer, you might

2 read that sentence.


4 Q. Could you please look at page 34, line 34. And please review that

5 section with respect to your answer on Momir Nikolic and his reporting

6 habits as a member of the security organ.


8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. What is the -- what's the English

9 version?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: 35. Page 35, line 10.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Right around that section, and if you go further

13 down -- line 15 is the answer that would guide us to the rehabilitation.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: My questions were directed towards this witness

17 and -- well, I will sit down.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, thank you. Thank you.

19 Q. Do you see your answer with respect to the security organ?

20 A. Page 34, line 34?

21 Q. If you read downwards -- if you read the next few lines with

22 respect to Nikolic reporting to Blagojevic.

23 A. I was led into a situation here. I have been in a situation here

24 to say that this was from the 12th, but this was not indeed something

25 which happened from the 12th.

Page 9454

1 Q. Do you -- now, this is why I need to read from the document. Do

2 you recall being asked the question --

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour.


5 MR. KARNAVAS: I would like to have the rules --

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, one by one.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll hear him out, Your Honour.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: The rules we worked by in the Prosecution's case:

9 If refreshing the recollection doesn't help, then he -- if the witness can

10 be declared hostile then he can be declared hostile and he can be asked

11 leading questions. This is the rule we worked under. And I'm certainly

12 willing to break the rules to get finished, but you break the rule once

13 and you break the rule a thousand times, and it adds up. And I just want

14 to point out that is the rule we all know we worked under, and that is the

15 rule Mr. Karnavas was trained in.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, I agree with you generally in the rules.

17 But here it seems to me that I could not understand the answer by this

18 witness. So in this situation, I believe there is a necessity for the

19 Defence counsel to take a lead.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Do you recall being asked: "So therefore Nikolic will report to

22 Blagojevic as to what's happening, what he's been ordered to do, if in

23 fact he was taking orders from the corps security organ?"

24 And do you recall giving this answer: "Security organs always

25 work separately from others. There's always some kind of secrecy around

Page 9455

1 them."

2 Do you recall giving that answer? That's your answer. Correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Then he goes on: "But surely there's some contact of

5 reporting from Blagojevic and Nikolic while they're there at the same

6 time?"

7 And your answer is: "It's possible."

8 Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, when you said yesterday -- or when you said to the

11 Prosecution when they were being -- you were being questioned there about

12 secrecy around the security organ, could you please explain to us what you

13 meant, in light of the fact that you were working for the security organ

14 at some point in time prior to becoming the assistant commander for rear

15 services.

16 A. The security organs always cooperated with the superior command.

17 That means that was the principle of the work which obtained.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you were asked a series of questions about

19 your answer with respect to Colonel Blagojevic being in Potocari. I want

20 to direct your attention to line -- to page 9, and if you could read to

21 yourself from page 9 line 4, read that page, a portion of it. And please

22 tell us whether you concretely say that the commander was indeed there.

23 A. No, I didn't say concretely that it was so; I supposed that he

24 could be there.

25 Q. All right. And what -- could you please tell us exactly what you

Page 9456

1 told the Prosecutors back then, so at least we have a flavour as to how

2 you put it. And this is line 9. This is early on in the interview for

3 what is going to take place over the course of nine hours. Please read to

4 us how exactly you put it.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, do we have to go into those

6 details? I think everything we get is already there. The witness said

7 that, you know, he was wrong.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand that, Your Honour. And -- but I want

9 to make sure that the record is clear, because the gentleman here is

10 saying we must have, probably, supposedly. This is throughout the whole

11 transcript. Now, I could forego my entire line of re-direct if I was

12 assured that this entire statement could enter into evidence, and

13 therefore I could point out and plug holes into the Prosecution's theory

14 that Colonel Blagojevic was in Potocari as a result of this gentleman's

15 testimony. Unless the Prosecution now wishes to concede, as I believe

16 Mr. Butler conceded, that Colonel Blagojevic was not in Potocari on the

17 12th.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this man testified under oath

20 yesterday that he told the Prosecutor that Blagojevic was not in Potocari.

21 He didn't say he hemmed or he hawed or it was a maybe or probably. He

22 told this court yesterday that he told us that he wasn't there.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: No, that's wrong, contrary.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. Karnavas had plenty of chance to use this on

25 direct and he didn't use it and we're just going over and over it again.

Page 9457

1 I think it's clear what's happened here. I think the Court understands

2 it. I don't have any objection to this whole document coming in, if you

3 can stand another document. I have no problem. Maybe that can solve our

4 problem.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Just for the record, Your Honour. I think

6 Mr. McCloskey might be mistaken. The gentleman said that he told the

7 Prosecutors that Blagojevic was there on the 12th, but he was wrong in

8 stating that. He never denied that he didn't tell the Prosecutors that

9 Blagojevic was there on the 12th. I think maybe we're all tired and maybe

10 it was Monday, but I distinctly remember the gentleman stating that, yes,

11 he told the Prosecutors that -- in Banja Luka on the 26th of November that

12 Blagojevic was there, and now he's saying: I was wrong.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, so there's no dispute.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: We agree with that.

15 JUDGE LIU: So there's no disputes on this issue.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: But I also want to point out that the whole

17 statement itself is full of maybes, probablies, I suppose, which shows

18 that he's trying -- it fits well into the gentleman's testimony that he's

19 trying to provide answers and he's guessing half the time.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: So can we have the whole document admitted into

22 evidence?

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's a difficult question; we'll deal with it at

24 a later stage. But I don't think on this particular issue that there's

25 any dispute on it.

Page 9458

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

2 Q. You were asked about the 5th Engineering Company at Konjevic

3 Polje. Do you know what they were doing there? Who ordered them there

4 and what was their function -- the 5th Engineer's Battalion. I'm sorry.

5 A. What time are you referring to?

6 Q. Okay. Well, you were asked a series of questions by the

7 Prosecutor about the 5th Engineer's Battalion that were in Konjevic Polje

8 back in 1994, I believe, is when they arrived. But do you know who

9 brought them there and what was their function? Why were they there?

10 A. Well, I cannot say with certainty. I don't know.

11 Q. Do you know whether Colonel Blagojevic had anything to do with

12 them being there? Concretely now.

13 A. No.

14 Q. All right. Just one other question. You were asked a series of

15 questions about the separation of the men. I want you to look at, in the

16 English version page 30, and if we can start on line 14. On the Srpski

17 version -- just a second. It would be page 30, right around line 15. If

18 you could read all the way down. There are a couple of lengthy questions,

19 and some information is provided to you regarding what was happening in

20 the Krstic case, by Dean Manning. Could you read that, please.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, could you please tell us: Were you asked during your

23 interview in Banja Luka about whether you saw any separation of men there

24 while you were in Potocari? Do you recall being asked that question?

25 A. I do.

Page 9459

1 Q. Okay. And in fact, in part of the questioning process, Dean

2 Manning even provided you with some information from the Court in the

3 Krstic case. Right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And at that time when you were asked that question -- those

6 questions, did you not tell him that while you were there you did not see

7 any separation?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm trying to adjust to these new rules, Your

11 Honour.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a leading question which is not allowed on

13 direct examination --

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no idea where these rules are being made up.

15 I would like to have -- Seriously, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE LIU: This is a re-direct. I think in the re-direct you

17 could ask leading questions.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that is not my understanding. If

19 that is a rule coming from the Bench, I will gladly follow it, but

20 re-direct is normally the same as direct, especially when I am limited to

21 no re-cross. We have to be very careful not to allow leading questions or

22 allow him to go beyond the scope. You don't argue your case through

23 direct, which is what he's doing. That is completely improper; it's

24 happening to each one of these witnesses. It's relatively harmless in

25 this case, I'll grant it, but what I'm trying to do is prevent this

Page 9460

1 constant slippage into this kind of conduct because it will go on and on

2 and on. Leading questions in re-direct, generally not accepted.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, as I said before that the re-direct examination

4 should be strictly within the cross-examination. And since all the

5 matters have already been raised in the direct examination and the

6 cross-examination, there is some leverage in the re-direct examination.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: This does not mean that we'll provide you the

9 opportunity to conduct your direct examination once again.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I totally understand, Your Honour. And frankly,

11 I'm at a loss at some of the things that I'm hearing from the Prosecutor.

12 I will try to re-organise my thoughts to comport with, perhaps, this new

13 method of trial advocacy. But frankly, I don't know what he's talking

14 about. But in any event, I have no more questions at this stage. I'm

15 through with my re-direct.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I think it's time for a break. Should we

17 -- well, since the Judges have no questions, I think we will continue with

18 the admission of the evidence so to finish this witness before the recess.

19 At this stage, are there any documents to tender? Mr. Karnavas?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President. I believe it's -- I believe

21 it's D155, which was the -- it's dated 28 June, 1995 -- actually, maybe we

22 don't need to have to admitted since we already found that it was not

23 relevant to the events surrounding Srebrenica, so I withdraw that.

24 The series of documents under D166, that would be 1 through 10,

25 those were the materiel lists dated 5th July 1995 to 12 July 1995.

Page 9461

1 D156, which is an overview of the amounts of fuel, lubricants, et

2 cetera, received and consumed between 1 July 1995, and 31 July 1995. It's

3 dated 2 August, 1995.

4 D157, the materiel lists of 12 July 1995.

5 D158, the materiel lists which is 13 July 1995.

6 D159, which is a receipt with respect to the UNHCR fuel, that's

7 dated 14 July 1995.

8 D160, the handwritten document of 12 July 1995.

9 D161, handwritten document; this is the listing of fuel for 12

10 July 1995.

11 D152, handwritten document again.

12 D163 -- it should be D162 and then 163, the appropriation of

13 equipment from the former enclave, dated 24 July 1995.

14 D164, which is the intelligence -- it's a document from the

15 intelligence sector dated 13 July 1995; that was from Colonel Jankovic.

16 And D165, which I'm sure the Prosecution has no objections to,

17 which are the Bratunac Brigade minutes of the meeting of 28 June 1965 to

18 16 October 1965. I believe that's it.

19 Now, I should -- and then, of course, the statement, which should

20 come in as D167 -- 171, I'm sorry. 171.

21 And I should note that some of the documents we have unofficial

22 translations, though they are before the registrar to be formally

23 translated. And I would suspect since we've already done most of the work

24 for them, it's just a matter of perhaps fine tuning and giving it the

25 registrar's imprimatur as official translations.

Page 9462

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 Any objections, Mr. McCloskey?

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one second, if I could.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: No objection.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 Are there any documents to tender on your part?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me one second.

9 Thank you for your patience. We have two documents that have been

10 mentioned here. One is the document that -- of October 1993, mentioning

11 that Lieutenant Colonel Blagojevic was assigned as chief of staff of the

12 Bratunac Brigade. And the other is the copy of the preparatory order

13 dated 2 July, number one, that was referred to in another document. Just

14 to clear the record, and I see Mr. Karnavas -- we understand each other on

15 that. Unfortunately, the copy was not readable for the witness, but it's

16 a military preparatory order for the attack. And I don't think there's

17 any problem. I think it's a historic document the Court should have as

18 other key documents referred to it.

19 And just to remind the Court, both these documents are important

20 documents that were referenced in Rick Butler's report, and we offered

21 into evidence before but they were declined. So that's why they have not

22 been offered into evidence before. And I will try to find more documents

23 like this so -- because I think it's important that the Court, in order to

24 understand Mr. Butler's report, has those documents, because many of them

25 are significant. As you know, I didn't want to go over every document

Page 9463

1 cited by Mr. Butler, otherwise, he would still be on direct examination.

2 But if there are any other key documents, I will try to find some time and

3 bring those up. A few pop up from witnesses, so we bring them up there.

4 JUDGE LIU: For the sake of the record, would you please furnish

5 us with the number of those two documents you offered.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. The re-assignment is P857, that's the

7 document dated 2 October. And the preparatory order dated 2 July is P862.

8 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 So these documents tendered by the Defence counsel as well as by

12 the Prosecution are admitted into the evidence.

13 As for the document D171, which is the statement of this witness,

14 as a rule we do not admit the previous statement into the evidence. But

15 since the Defence counsel tendered this document and there's no objections

16 from the Prosecution on this very document, this document is admitted into

17 evidence. But, however, there must be a rule to solve the conflict

18 between the live testimony and this statement. If in the future there is

19 any conflict, the live testimony of this witness should have the primacy.

20 It is so decided.

21 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

22 your evidence. When this sitting is adjourned, the usher will show you

23 out of the room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.

24 The hearing is adjourned and we will resume at quarter to 1.00.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 9464

1 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

4 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

6 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

7 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

16 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

17 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

18 A. Good afternoon.

19 Q. Could you please tell us your name.

20 A. My name is Zlatan Celanovic.

21 Q. Could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.

22 A. C-e-l-a-n-o-v-i-c.

23 Q. Where are you from, Mr. Celanovic?

24 A. Bratunac.

25 Q. Where did you grow up?

Page 9465

1 A. In Bratunac.

2 Q. And what do you currently do in Bratunac?

3 A. I have my own private business.

4 Q. And what is that?

5 A. I'm a lawyer, and I have an agency for real estate and legal

6 assistance.

7 Q. How long have you been a lawyer, sir?

8 A. Since 1980.

9 Q. Just briefly, could you tell us, where did you study, where did

10 you get your law degree from?

11 A. I studied in Belgrade, and that's where I got my law degree from.

12 Q. Now, in 1992 were you mobilised when Bratunac had the Territorial

13 Defence there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you please tell us what position you held when you were

16 mobilised with the Territorial Defence.

17 A. I didn't understand your question. Are you referring to the army

18 or before I was mobilised? I apologise.

19 Q. No problem. Before the formation of the Bratunac Brigade, we

20 know, we've heard testimony, that there was a Territorial Defence, a TO,

21 in the Bratunac municipality. Were you a member of the TO prior to the

22 formation of the Bratunac Brigade?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please tell us first of all when it was that you became

25 a member of the TO.

Page 9466

1 A. 16 April 1992 I was mobilised by the military department.

2 Q. Very well. And could you please tell us, what position or what

3 function did you have with the TO when you were mobilised back on 16 April

4 1992?

5 A. At first I was a foot soldier, a military policeman since I was

6 mobilised into the military police company.

7 Q. What other functions did you hold?

8 A. Again, I don't understand your question, sir. What functions I

9 had in addition to being a foot soldier or what I did? Can you clarify.

10 Q. All right. What else did you do, if anything, besides being a

11 foot soldier when you were with the TO?

12 A. I understand. I was involved in legal affairs. I was an official

13 in charge of legal affairs, religious affairs, and moral guidance. This

14 was my professional duty at the level of the desk officer. Do you want me

15 to go into any other detail?

16 Q. That will be fine for now. When the Bratunac Brigade was formed

17 in 1993, do you recall what position you held with them? When you first

18 got -- became a member of the Bratunac Brigade.

19 A. The same.

20 Q. Were you an assistant commander for legal, religious, and moral

21 guidance?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How long were you in that position?

24 A. Until the day of mobilisation.

25 Q. All right. Until the day of demobilisation or the day --

Page 9467

1 mobilisation. Which of the two?

2 A. Demobilisation.

3 Q. All right. And what -- so what year -- what month and year would

4 that be?

5 A. I believe it was sometime before the Dayton, a few days before the

6 Dayton accords were signed in 1995, in the month of December of that year.

7 Q. All right. Now, first I want to talk about -- let me direct your

8 attention to July 1995. Could you please tell us, what position did you

9 hold within the Bratunac Brigade then?

10 A. The one I described. I was the desk officer for legal affairs,

11 religious affairs, and moral guidance in the brigade.

12 Q. All right. Okay. Could you please tell us what your functions

13 were in that capacity.

14 A. My main tasks were to deal with breaches of military discipline

15 committed by army members and to participate in any procedure against

16 those who would commit a breach of discipline or break rules against the

17 army, in keeping with the law. My duty was to, in such cases, if such a

18 person was brought in by the military police on the order of the superior

19 officer, I would take a statement from such a person about the

20 circumstances under which the breach of law took place. Sometimes I would

21 also hear eyewitnesses of the event. I would also be in charge of maybe

22 obtaining a written document about the event.

23 After that, my duty was to inform the brigade commander, or

24 previously the battalion commander, about the incidents, what kind of an

25 incident it was. If my opinion was sought, then I would qualify the

Page 9468

1 incident, either as a misdemeanor or a crime, and what should be done.

2 This was more or less what I did within the scope of my duties.

3 In addition to that, I had some other duties. One of those involved

4 occasional controls of the UNHCR convoys that were transporting food to

5 Srebrenica. I would be checking whether there were any weapons hidden

6 among the food. And this was basically what I did. I would escort those

7 convoys in order to inspect them.

8 In addition to that, I was also in charge of taking statements,

9 even from civilians brought in by the army, because sometimes civilians

10 also did something that damaged the army or something that was targeted

11 against the army. They would sometimes use arms against the law or they

12 would do other things, and one of my tasks was to conduct interviews with

13 prisoners of war. Should those be brought in, I would take a statement

14 for -- from such a person. I would write my report based on that

15 statement and forward that to my commander. I would inform my commander

16 what I had heard during the interview with such a person. The essence of

17 that job was to establish the factual base that might serve the defence of

18 such a person, whether something useful could be learned from those

19 individuals, whether the general situation could be assessed based on the

20 statement. When I say "the general situation," I mean the situation

21 amongst the enemy. Those reports were then read by brigade commanders -

22 there were several of them during my tour of duty - and also the chief of

23 the security organ would read those reports, and they would jointly make a

24 decision on how to use the facts that I had gathered. So this concerned

25 my job. This was part of my duties. This was part of the description of

Page 9469

1 my job, and this is where my role finished.

2 Q. Okay. I'm going to take you step by step. First of all, you

3 indicated that at some point your function was to question people to see

4 whether they had -- were involved in any incidents, whether they were

5 serious or non-serious. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us, first of all, who would determine

8 who you would be questioning? Who would determine that?

9 A. It was my duty to hear any person that had been brought in by the

10 military police.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. And the actual decision to that effect was brought by whoever --

13 whosoever was issuing orders in the military police. The basic decision

14 as to whether that person would be brought before me was actually brought

15 by the person in charge in the military police, so I could not interrogate

16 anyone on my own initiative.

17 Q. All right. Were you in your capacity - and it sounds as if you

18 were sort of like a lawyer in the brigade - in your capacity, were you

19 able to conduct investigations?

20 A. Yes, I was not some sort of a lawyer; I was a lawyer. I could not

21 conduct investigations. I could only take statements from people brought

22 before me.

23 Q. All right. And what would happen with those statements?

24 A. I had to and was duty-bound to take those statements to the

25 commander for him to decide what is to be done with the persons who had

Page 9470

1 breached either discipline or a law or what have you.

2 Q. Let's start with the discipline. Are those serious or non-serious

3 offenses?

4 A. These were lesser offenses, less-grave offenses. I can give you

5 an example, if you want me to.

6 Q. Yes, give us an example.

7 A. For instance, AWOL soldiers, who leave the unit without leave and

8 then stay at home for a couple of days without authorisation by their

9 superior commander, then the commander in question would inform the

10 military police of that particular incident, the military police would

11 bring the person in, I would take the statement from the person thus

12 brought in, and I would inform the commander that one or two persons or

13 more persons, as the case may be, have given a statement and that this is

14 a breach of discipline punishable by military detention in military

15 prison.

16 If the consequences are of minor nature, of course the offence can

17 be pardoned. If the commander decides that the person should be punished

18 by any kind of sanction, it was up to him to tell me, here, you draw up a

19 text of an order with all the necessary reasoning and explanation as a

20 jurist and bring it to me to sign. So I would do that. I would transact

21 the technical part of the job, and I would, of course, take that order to

22 the commander for his signature and authentication, as he was the only

23 person who was empowered to sign an order punishing a soldier.

24 After that, the military police would receive, either directly

25 from the commander or from the organ in charge, this order and would then

Page 9471

1 bring the person in question to military detention, which was a facility

2 which existed there and could accommodate a number of persons. And that

3 is as far as that part of that particular assignment is concerned.

4 Q. All right. What if the offence was something much more serious

5 than disciplinary action? A criminal offence. How would that be handled?

6 What would you do?

7 A. Well, procedurally speaking, the same thing. However, another

8 consideration, or rather, another legal obligation had to be observed in

9 this particular instance; namely, the commander could not take a decision

10 and impose a penalty for a criminal offence, because that is in the

11 jurisdiction of courts, specifically in the case of the military court

12 which was in charge of our area. So I would observe, follow the same

13 procedure: I would inform the commander what criminal offence was in

14 question, I would prepare what documentation I could, and such a person,

15 in case of the gravest criminal offenses, for instance, grievous bodily

16 harm or murder, would be then referred, with the aid of the police, to the

17 investigating magistrate of the military court which used to be in Sokolac

18 and later in Bijeljina when the territorial jurisdiction changed, in order

19 for him to institute proceedings in keeping with the criminal code -- the

20 criminal procedure code.

21 There would be an accompanying letter with a person and, in

22 addition to it, usually a criminal report, a criminal information to be

23 laid to the criminal military investigator would also be made in order for

24 action to be taken against such a perpetrator or a violator, rather, of

25 the law -- or a perpetrator of a criminal offence. Then the court would

Page 9472

1 proceed as envisaged under the criminal procedure law; first of all the

2 investigation and then the actual trial until the final resolution of the

3 case, which was by then a totally legal matter.

4 Q. I'm going to ask you to please slow down a little bit. Let me

5 guide you through this process.

6 A. I apologise.

7 Q. It's all right. Now, once the matter is referred to the military

8 prosecutor and then it goes up to the military investigative Judge, at

9 that phase would you be involved at all in assisting?

10 A. Very little. Only in one sense. If the investigating Judge of

11 the military court decided - and he could under the law - to conduct

12 certain investigative actions outside the seat of the court in the

13 specific instance in the headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade, in some of

14 the rooms, he could do so. He could have a room made available and a

15 secretary, perhaps, for his benefit to conduct it.

16 Q. All right. Other than providing those facilities, would you be

17 engaged in any other activities?

18 A. No, not in those processes, no.

19 Q. All right. Now, before we get to the events surrounding

20 Srebrenica, while you were with the Bratunac Brigade, were you ever a

21 member of the military police?

22 A. Yes, I was, at the very beginning of the war. Because I was

23 mobilised into that particular unit. That was from the 16th of April. I

24 can't recall dates with precision, but my son was born on that date, that

25 is why I remember it. So -- that was until the end of April when I was

Page 9473

1 demobilised, and then again from the 1st of June or the 1st of July, I'm

2 not quite sure, I was mobilised again into the military police. But I was

3 immediately assigned to this particular duty. I did no regular military

4 police duty like patrols and things that are the normal routine of

5 military police. So the emphasis was on technical and legal affairs,

6 which I had to conduct, as I explained a while ago.

7 Q. All right. And during that period and thereafter, did you take --

8 did you have an opportunity to take statements from individuals pursuant

9 to your functions?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Now, just for the record, let me show you what has been marked for

12 identification as D167. If you could take a look at it. Do you recognise

13 this document, sir?

14 A. I recognise what it is, but I myself have not seen it so far. I

15 know what its content is; it is a report on the strength of the numbers of

16 the force in the military police, signed by the commander Milos Petrovic.

17 And inter alia, it contains my name on the very end.

18 Q. Let me walk you through. What is the date on this document?

19 A. The 24th of February, 1993.

20 Q. All right. Now, if we go to the last page, because you indicated

21 your name is there. Right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And is the content in this document accurate?

24 A. Well, relatively.

25 Q. All right. Now, let me show you another document which has been

Page 9474

1 marked as D168. If you could look at this document. Just look at it,

2 please. Let me walk you through it step by step.

3 A. Yes. This is a report on military duties and work in the military

4 police, as it was dubbed. I compiled the report; this is my name and this

5 is my signature.

6 Q. Let me remind you, I would like to go through these documents step

7 by step. First of all, what is the date on this document? I'm referring

8 to D168. What's the date on it?

9 A. The 4th of March, 1993.

10 Q. All right. And as you noted, your name appears in the last page.

11 Correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is that your signature?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. No dilemma about that?

16 A. No dilemma.

17 Q. All right. Could you please tell us, what is this document about?

18 A. This document is a report on military duties and work from the

19 very outbreak of the war until the date when it was compiled.

20 Q. Why was this report made, if you recall?

21 A. I do recall. It was compiled at the request of the head of the

22 organ for OB affairs, intelligence affairs. He asked that the report be

23 compiled, and probably also the commander of the brigade. I'm not quite

24 sure of that particular fact, but most probably.

25 Q. All right. And who prepared this document, since it bears your

Page 9475

1 name on it?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. Now, in this document it refers to you having interrogated some

4 prisoners, does it not?

5 A. Yes, it does.

6 Q. And in fact, on page 3 in the English version, it notes that there

7 were 35 prisoners, to be exact. Correct? In the English version it's --

8 it would be page 2 in your version. If you go one, two, three, the fourth

9 paragraph.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, could you please tell us: What was the purpose of

12 interrogating these captured soldiers and other persons that you, over

13 here, designate as Muslims and as prisoners of war? What was the purpose?

14 A. The purpose was to identify the captured persons and to gather

15 from them data as terms of where they had come from, what was the

16 situation in terms of the enemy's weapons, the enemy's morale, where the

17 combat positions of the enemy were, and most importantly, to try to find

18 out what the intentions of the enemy were, given the fact that in those

19 months many Serbian villages had been attacked and burnt down. So the

20 emphasis was on trying to get intelligence as to when was the enemy

21 planning to attack our positions or what places he was planning to attack;

22 what village, what town, et cetera.

23 Q. All right. Could you please tell us, to your knowledge and to

24 your understanding, what happened to the 35 prisoners of war that you were

25 involved in interrogating? And this would have been sometime between

Page 9476

1 April 1992 and March 1993, in that period.

2 A. After I'd taken statements from these persons, from such persons,

3 these persons would be then escorted to detention, the detention facility.

4 And this was seen to by the commander of the brigade -- actually, in that

5 particular period we had first the garrison commander and then the brigade

6 was formed only later. So terminologically speaking, it was always the

7 commander of whatever level of unit was concerned. And as far as I know,

8 some of those persons were sent to be -- to Batkovic to be exchanged,

9 Batkovic near Bijeljina. Whether it was a collection centre, a detention

10 centre, a prison, it was one of those things. And some of these persons

11 from whom I had taken statements were entrusted to me to take them to

12 Potocari and to hand them over to the armed forces in Srebrenica, which I

13 certainly did. So I handed them over there to them in their territory,

14 and some of -- in regard of some of those persons, the brigade commander

15 tasked me with reporting them to the International Red Cross or the UNHCR

16 - I cannot remember exactly at this point - and to hand them over to

17 them. This was four or five elderly people whom we fed and took care of

18 until the moment when I handed them over to these organisations.

19 Q. All right. In light --

20 A. I have -- I had a few papers on this handing and take-over with

21 the representatives of the Red Cross. That is it. That is all that I

22 know about the further fate of these people.

23 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you: In light of your position, why

24 were you involved in making these arrangements or having contact with the

25 Red Cross and exchanging -- or delivering, I should say, prisoners of war

Page 9477

1 to the UNHCR or to the other side? Why you?

2 A. In my reply, I would proceed from an explanation. I cannot reply

3 with a simple yes or no. If you would allow me, I would like to amplify a

4 bit. For the simple reason that I was a person that had not been

5 discredited in any way prior to the outbreak of the conflict, so I could

6 go to the Muslim's territory, negotiate, if that was the task; to hand

7 over prisoners, if that was my task. So these very same persons that I

8 took statements from, I would escort myself and hand them over to their

9 people in their territory. They perhaps should have also added to the

10 description of my job also the desk officer for humanitarian affairs, but

11 it was somehow implied, in addition to my regular duties, I would also be

12 performing tasks of this nature.

13 Q. All right. Now, in this report you compiled for your superior

14 officer, as far as what you had been engaged in, it also appears that you

15 were doing some intelligence and even counter-intelligence work. Do you

16 see that?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. And we then see the name of Lieutenant Drago Nikolic. Is that the

19 same Drago Nikolic who ultimately ends up in the Zvornik Brigade, if you

20 know?

21 A. I know just this one Drago Nikolic. It was, I believe, August,

22 and until the end of September 1992 this person was in contact with me and

23 never again afterwards. But I believe that at the time he was at

24 Sekovici. Now, whether he went to Zvornik later, I'm not sure. I believe

25 that this is that Dragan, or rather, Drago person. There is no other that

Page 9478

1 I know.

2 Q. All right. Could you please explain to us a little bit, sir, so

3 at least we have a sense of your duties, what exactly do you -- were you

4 doing with respect to intelligence and counter-intelligence work? What do

5 you mean by that?

6 A. Well, frankly speaking, the terms used here are "intelligence" and

7 "counter-intelligence." I really don't know much about those things,

8 about those affairs, but I will tell you what to my mind were intelligence

9 and counter-intelligence affairs. Intelligence work was gathering all

10 possible information about the situation of the enemy on the basis of

11 statements taken or on the basis of some other sources of information in

12 order to portray a picture about the intentions of the enemy, whether he

13 means to attack or burn down a village or not. And similar things in this

14 context; what armaments he had at disposal, where he had his fortified

15 lines and placements from where he could attack us. This is what I

16 understand to be intelligence.

17 And counter-intelligence was, in a way, drawing, my drawing of

18 conclusions, which I would then present to this Mr. Drago Nikolic as to

19 what the situation was, seeing that I was in charge of morale as the desk

20 officer, what was the situation in that particular respect among the

21 troops; whether they were deserting, whether they had complaints, and

22 similar. And possibly whether there was an information from our soldiers

23 or from civilians of collaboration with the enemy, or of our soldiers or

24 civilians collaborating with the enemy, which we simply call treason.

25 So that was the kind of information I was looking for. I didn't

Page 9479

1 gather much of such counter-intelligence information. As for intelligence

2 gathering, that was a standard, and I have already described it: Where it

3 was, which unit, how well armed it was, and things of that character.

4 Later we had a chief of intelligence and security appointed, and

5 after he had been appointed, I believe it was in October or November 1992,

6 I'm not quite sure, he was thereafter in charge of this business, so I

7 would be just there as an auxiliary staff member. And I did it because of

8 the very chaotic situation that came at the beginning of the war, which in

9 fact reigned on both sides, so that is why I had to do it. I hope I have

10 managed to respond to your question.

11 Q. I think you have indeed, and it has been quite comprehensive,

12 might I add. Now, I'm going to ask you to sort of keep your answers as

13 narrow as possible and let me guide you through the process.

14 First of all, who would you report to in your position? In light

15 of your position, who was your commanding officer, your immediate

16 commanding officer?

17 A. Always the commander. And before the commander, not throughout

18 the period of my service in the army, but when he was appointed the

19 assistant commander for the same work, but he was the assistant commander

20 and thereby he was a commanding officer, and that was Major Ratko Jevtic.

21 And I cannot recall with precision the exact date of his appointment.

22 Q. All right. But I want to focus your attention now on July 1995.

23 In light of your position, who was your immediate commander, the one that

24 you would report to?

25 A. The commander was Vidoje Blagojevic.

Page 9480

1 Q. Just -- I think you've answered the question. I don't want to cut

2 you off, but I want to focus you on the questions.

3 Now, to what extent -- first of all, where were your offices?

4 A. My offices. Not offices, I apologise; the one and only office

5 which I had was in an auxiliary building located before you enter the

6 yard, the compound, of the headquarters of the brigade, to the right,

7 namely in the facility where the military police platoon was, the

8 makeshift or auxiliary storehouse of the military police was, and my

9 office was also there. And that is the compound of the ceramic tile

10 factory which was called Ukrasna keramika, or decorative ceramics.

11 Q. So you did not have an office in the headquarters itself where the

12 brigade command was located?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you have an association with or were you ever subordinated to

15 Momir Nikolic, who was the head of security and intelligence, in light of

16 his position and his association with the military police?

17 A. Momir Nikolic was never my superior commanding officer.

18 Q. So you did not have to report to him?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. Did you have any work with him? Did you ever have any work where

21 you would have to collaborate with; associate with; coordinate, for lack

22 of a better term, with?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in what instances would that be?

25 A. Well, in instances when we controlled -- for instance, we checked

Page 9481

1 out UNPROFOR convoys. If Momir couldn't do it, I would do it. In other

2 occasions if they were in a dilemma, the military police, or he himself,

3 as to the manner of application on the law on the army, the law -- the

4 application of force, of coercion against the soldiers, then we had

5 consultative talks. Simply they sought my advice and I would give them my

6 advice on these subject matters.

7 Q. In light of your position, would you sit in on the daily

8 briefings, if there were such, with the other brigade commanders?

9 A. No. I couldn't attend such briefings because I was not a member

10 of the command. I'm not an officer. I was a foot soldier. Nobody

11 invited me to any such briefings. It was not my duty to go and attend

12 such meetings, save for some exceptional cases.

13 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to give you two days that we're going

14 to use as reference points, and we'll take it from there. The first date

15 is July 6th, 1995, and that's when the events surrounding Srebrenica

16 commenced. And then July 11th, which we know as a fixed date for when

17 Srebrenica fell. Now, my first question is: Prior to the events

18 concerning Srebrenica, that is prior to July 6th, 1995, were you given any

19 particular tasks concerning those events, the events that would ensue

20 relating to Srebrenica?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. Would you please tell us whether you were on duty at

23 the time.

24 A. I didn't understand your question. On that day or generally

25 speaking?

Page 9482

1 Q. Well, generally speaking, were you on vacation, general leave, or

2 were you sick, or were you on duty?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Shin.

4 MR. SHIN: I think, as the witness indicated, it's a little

5 unclear what the time frame is, and "generally speaking" doesn't seem to

6 assist us in that regard.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, the answer is I can understand --

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe the time frame is from the 6th of July

9 to the 11th of July?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. If we go further -- if we go to

11 the question, which is rather clear: "Prior to July 6th, were you given

12 any particular tasks?"

13 The answer is: "No."

14 "All right. Would you please tell us whether you were on duty at

15 that time."

16 And he says he didn't understand the question.

17 I'll rephrase it, Your Honour.

18 Q. At or around July 6th, were you on duty or were you on leave?

19 A. I apologise. I'm really not very good with dates. However, if I

20 am to remember, I was never on leave. I was always on duty. I was

21 performing my regular duties. During that period of time, I wasn't given

22 any tasks on top of my everyday duties.

23 Q. All right. Now, during -- from the 6th to the 11th of July, that

24 is from the time when the events concerning Srebrenica began to the time

25 when Srebrenica fell, were you asked to go to the front, to any of the

Page 9483

1 lines?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ever go to Pribicevac, for instance, where the Drina Corps

4 had set up its forward command post and where the 3rd Battalion had its

5 regular command post?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were you given any instructions, any orders, any suggestions by

8 your commander, Colonel Blagojevic, for that period, that is from July 6th

9 to July 11th?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you recall whether Colonel Blagojevic came to visit you during

12 that period, from July 6th to July 11th, where you had your offices in the

13 annex which is in front of the command post where the military police are

14 also generally housed?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Now, on July 11th, we know for a fact that that was

17 the date that Srebrenica fell. Could you please tell us if you recall

18 that particular date. Does that date stand out, being that it was, at

19 least for some, a rather memorable occasion?

20 A. Again, I must repeat for the Chamber, I'm really not very good

21 with dates. I remember events, but I'm not so good with dates. I can't

22 tell with precision that I remember the 11th of July, 1995. I do remember

23 the event, however, because the events is what sticks in my mind much

24 better than the dates. I apologise in advance for not being sure about

25 the dates. I don't want this Trial Chamber to draw a wrong conclusion

Page 9484

1 about the things that I'm saying here. I'm here to tell the truth and

2 only the truth the way I remember it, according to the solemn declaration

3 that I read out. Please forgive me for not remembering the precise dates,

4 for not being precise. As for the events that took place, I can describe

5 the events as much as I remember them and to the extent I participated in

6 those events.

7 Q. Okay. Mr. Celanovic, let's talk about events then. All right.

8 A. Very well, then.

9 Q. All right. Well, do you recall the day -- forget about the date,

10 but do you recall the event, the date, when Srebrenica fell?

11 A. Again, I cannot be too precise about that either. I know what in

12 my mind was the thing that marked the fall of Srebrenica. And I don't

13 know whether this was on that particular date. To my mind, Srebrenica

14 fell when it became clear -- when you say "Srebrenica," I understand the

15 whole enclave, not just the town of Srebrenica. To my mind, it was on the

16 13th when the majority of the detainees came to Bratunac. I did hear,

17 however, that it fell on the 11th or on the 12th. I can tell you about

18 the events the way I experienced them, and then you pinpoint a date. I

19 don't want to be -- to make a mistake about things only because I don't

20 remember the dates of things that happened such a long time ago.

21 Q. Okay. All right. Mr. Celanovic, let's stick to events then. Do

22 you recall sometime during that period, that is after the 11th -- after

23 Srebrenica fell, do you recall whether you questioned -- you were asked to

24 question any prisoners of war?

25 A. Yes. Yes, I remember that very clearly.

Page 9485

1 Q. Okay. Good. Now, we're going to go step by step. Do you recall

2 -- well, I'll take a shot at it: Do you recall what day it was that you

3 were asked to do that?

4 A. Again, I can't be sure whether it was on the 12th or on the 13th.

5 Q. Okay. Do you recall where you were when you were asked to

6 question any prisoners of war?

7 A. I was in front of the building where my office was, in the yard in

8 front of that building, to be more precise.

9 Q. Okay. Do you recall the time of day? Was it morning or evening

10 or afternoon or around lunchtime?

11 A. I don't remember that for a fact, but I would say that it was

12 morning, in the morning of the day when most of the detainees arrived and

13 when I interrogated some of them, when I took their statements. Before I

14 took their statements, I had to identify them, I had to take their

15 particulars for identification.

16 Q. All right. We're going to go step by step. Just work with me

17 here. First of all, who was it that asked you to question the POWs, since

18 you've told us earlier that you normally did not do investigations but you

19 would question at request once requested? So who was it that ordered you?

20 A. Ljubisa Beara ordered it. I believe that he was a colonel by

21 rank.

22 Q. Okay. Did you know Mr. Beara from before?

23 A. Yes. I met him on several occasions when he came for inspections

24 to the brigade.

25 Q. All right. Did you know -- do you know where Mr. Beara fit in to

Page 9486

1 the structure in the VRS?

2 A. I believe that he was an officer for intelligence and security

3 with the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army. That's what I thought

4 at the time. He was either in charge of the intelligence and security or

5 maybe some other service with the Main Staff.

6 Q. Okay. All right. Now, could you please tell us what exactly

7 Colonel Beara told you.

8 A. He found me in front of the building, and he asked me what I was

9 doing, whether I was just wasting my time - I was standing outside, it was

10 very hot - or whether I was busy doing something. I told him that I was

11 busy doing my job, and as he knew that I had started gathering information

12 on crimes committed against the Serbian population, I had started

13 gathering statements from the Serbian population that had survived

14 massacres and killings of members of their family, I told him that I

15 already had some statements, and I told him that he would find it best

16 systematised in The Chronicle of Our Graveyards, the author of which was

17 Milivoje Ivanisevic. When I look at this information, although this book

18 is also not perfect, when it comes to data, I can find things out. He

19 told me in case it happened that they brought somebody in or in case

20 somebody ordered for somebody to be brought in, either the army or the

21 police - and when he said "somebody," he was referring to Muslims - that I

22 should try and inspect their IDs to see who these people are and to find

23 out whether any of those could be found in that book, in the list. And

24 when I say "the list," I'm referring to the book Chronicle of Our

25 Graveyards by Milivoje Ivanisevic.

Page 9487

1 This was very much the method of a random sample. If somebody was

2 brought in, we should try and identify the person. And if that name could

3 be found in the book, then I should try and inform one of the officers of

4 the security services, with a view to sending this person to the district

5 court in Bijeljina for further proceedings, because the names in the book

6 were the names of the suspects who probably committed crimes against the

7 civilian population in the area. This is what he told me to do, to take

8 the particulars of the persons who were brought in, to establish their

9 identity if one way or another. One way was to see whether anybody knew

10 the person who was brought in, if they didn't have any ID on them. And

11 this is exactly what I did with the persons who were brought in.

12 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you. Now, I believe it's time -- that's

13 all we have for today, though I will ask you to please listen to my

14 questions and let me guide you through tomorrow so we can do this step by

15 step, but I appreciate your complete answer.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 Well, Witness, I'm afraid you have to stay in The Hague for

18 another day because we did not finish your testimony. And during your

19 stay here, you are still under oath, so do not talk to anybody and do not

20 let anybody talk to you about your testimony.

21 And the hearing is adjourned for today, and we'll meet tomorrow

22 morning at 9.00.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

24 at 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

25 the 19th day of May, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.