1 Wednesday, 19 May 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 Good morning, Witness.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest yesterday?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excellent, thank you.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, before we start I think I have to remind you of
15 something. We understand that you are eager to give your testimony in
16 this courtroom to help the Judges to understand what was happening in July
17 1995 in Srebrenica. But the proceeding in this courtroom is quite
18 different from where you come from. Generally speaking, the witness
19 should be led by the party who asks questions. In most of all occasions,
20 all those answers -- all those questions could be answered simply by
21 saying yes or no. If the counsel needs more information on certain
22 subjects, he could ask the follow-up questions. So I hope your answer to
23 each question could be as concise as possible.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
5 WITNESS: ZLATAN CELANOVIC [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]
8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Celanovic.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. We left off yesterday when you spoke to us about your meeting with
11 Colonel Beara. Do you recall that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, before we get into that event and what happened afterwards, I
14 just want to get some things out of the way. You were questioned by the
15 Prosecution, were you not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you were questioned, I believe the date was 10 December 2003.
18 A. I think so.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not getting a translation.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me?
21 MR. KARNAVAS: All right.
22 Q. Now, when you were questioned by the Prosecution, were you
23 questioned as a witness or as a suspect?
24 A. When they came, they told me I would be interviewed as a suspect,
25 and then I was interviewed.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may have a moment. I'm having
3 some problems. I can hear the translations through somebody else's, but
4 I'm having a problem.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please check it.
6 MR. KARNAVAS:
7 Q. Okay. And you understand that as you sit here today and as you're
8 testifying, you still have the status of suspect. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I take it that's making you a little nervous?
11 A. Yes, quite.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Shin.
13 MR. SHIN: Objection, Your Honour. That was leading.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, in this occasion, I don't think -- well, it is a
15 leading question but in this occasion I don't think it matters very much.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.
17 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
19 Q. When you were questioned in Banja Luka as a suspect almost four
20 years after the Prosecution indicted Mr. Blagojevic, some two years after
21 he was arrested, were you informed as to the reasons why you were deemed a
23 A. If you will allow me, I would like to make a correction. This was
24 not in Banja Luka but in Bratunac, in my office, where I was interviewed.
25 I was never told why I was considered a suspect. That is, at the
1 beginning I wasn't told. Later on, they mentioned Resid Sinanovic as the
2 person who is implied as a participant in the events in which I allegedly
3 participated as well.
4 Q. All right. We're going to go step by step. And in fact, you had
5 an opportunity to read the indictment by the Prosecution -- or one of them
6 at least, one -- not the latest one that they're proposing, but the one
7 before, 17 June 2003. Correct? You've looked at that indictment?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And in fact, on paragraph 47.5 is where it's referenced -- and
10 I'll just read it for the record to make sure that we are on the same
11 point. It says: "At some time from 12 July through 1 November 1995, six
12 Bosnian Muslim men from Srebrenica were captured by MUP forces, turned
13 over to and interrogated by security personnel from the Bratunac Brigade
14 under the command and control of Vidoje Blagojevic and under the
15 directions of Momir Nikolic and thereafter summarily executed by unknown
17 And then it says: "One of these persons, Resid Sinanovic, was
18 captured by MUP soldiers from the Republika Srpska RS, turned over
19 personally to Momir Nikolic before being executed."
20 Do you recall reading that portion of the indictment?
21 A. No, not in this form.
22 Q. All right. But it's this -- is it not -- is it Resid Sinanovic or
23 the issue of the whereabouts of Resid Sinanovic that has -- that you've
24 been told is the reasons for you being a suspect?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. Now, did you question Resid Sinanovic in Bratunac
2 shortly after the fall of Srebrenica?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you summarily execute him?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you execute anyone, as being suggested by the Prosecution?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. Now, before we go into what happened to him --
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. This -- it appears to be an intent to
12 inflame the witness. First of all in suggesting to him that he's nervous
13 because of what an investigator has a duty to tell him, and now he's
14 saying the Prosecution suggested he executed someone. There's no
15 suggestion in that. It's part of the interrogation process of people that
16 were executed. This is well-known. And to say that to this man is really
17 unconscionable. For him to go back and suggest that we say he's an
18 executioner; that's just not true.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think we remind you many times,
20 do not mention the Prosecution, or mention the Prosecution as little as
21 possible. In your question it is not necessary to add that phrase "as
22 being suggested by the Prosecution." The question is there.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. I'll go about it in another way, Your
24 Honour, because I do believe that there is some worries from this
1 Q. When you read -- when you were informed about the summary
2 execution of Resid Sinanovic, what came to your mind?
3 A. I didn't think anything, because earlier I saw a paragraph from
4 the indictment in which it does say that he was summarily executed, but
5 this wasn't the case. I know that this wasn't the case. I did see him,
6 and if it says in the indictment that he died and before that he had seen
7 me, that means that I was somehow involved, but I was not involved in an
8 ugly way. And I was really concerned because in the indictment there are
9 some facts which may be linked to me.
10 Q. Okay. All right. Now, do you know what happened to Resid
11 Sinanovic after you -- after he left you? Just briefly tell us, do you
12 know what happened to him?
13 A. He left to the collection centre, which was in the school, like
14 everybody else. And now I know that on the 14th of December, 1995, he was
15 sent for treatment in Banja Koviljaca in Serbia -- that is, in Yugoslavia,
16 a day after I saw him.
17 Q. Now, is that December or could it be another month?
18 A. It was in July. 14 July. I may have misspoken, and I would like
19 to correct myself. The 14th of July I saw the document according to which
20 he was in that town on that day.
21 Q. All right. Now, let me show you what has been marked as -- for
22 identification purposes as D169.
23 Please look at these documents. Just look at them first, and
24 we're going to go step by step. Do you recognise these documents?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And what are these documents?
2 A. This is a letter sent by Milenko Marin from Loznica. He was the
3 director of the health centre, and it was sent to a lawyer Londrovic from
5 Q. First, I'm going to ask you to slow down. Slow down, because
6 everything is being translated, okay? Who was it sent to? Could you
7 please repeat the name again.
8 A. I apologise.
9 Q. It's all right. We're all nervous here.
10 A. This was sent to Veselin Londrovic, attorney-at-law, by
11 Dr. Milenko Marin, the director of the medical centre in Loznica.
12 Q. Okay. How did you get a hold of this document -- let me back up.
13 Have you seen this document before? Have you seen this document before?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How did you -- how did it come to your possession? How is it that
16 you saw it?
17 A. I personally asked Mr. Veselin Londrovic, attorney-at-law from
18 Bijeljina, to tell me whether he had such a document in his possession.
19 This is the person who represented Mr. Momir Nikolic, this
20 attorney-at-law. Should I tell you the reason why I wanted to see this
22 Q. I'm going to ask you the reason, step by step. What was the
23 reason for asking for the document?
24 A. I asked for this document for the following reason: I was very
25 worried after the visit of the representatives of The Hague Tribunal and
1 the conversation that I had with them in December 2003.
2 Q. Why were you concerned? What was the nature of your concern?
3 A. I was concerned because the alleged death or disappearance of
4 Resid Sinanovic had nothing whatsoever to do with me.
5 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us what the next document is,
6 the one that you received and Mr. Londrovic received.
7 A. This is a photocopy of the title page of the logbook from the year
9 Q. And is there any particular section on this page, the photocopied
10 page - and that would be on page 3 of the English version - is there any
11 portion of it that is relevant to what we are discussing right now?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, I understand -- I can see that on the left-hand side of the
14 page we have some numbers. Could you please read out the number that is
16 A. If you will allow me, the date is more relevant than the number
18 Q. Okay. But if you will allow me, let me walk you through. First,
19 which part --
20 A. I apologise again.
21 Q. No worries. Okay.
22 A. Once again, I apologise. This number is 2028.
23 Q. Okay. And if we go through -- if we go across the page, what does
24 it say there in Srpski?
25 A. In Serbian it says: "Resid Sinanovic."
1 Q. All right. And further down, if we go over, does it have a date
2 of birth that you can read?
3 A. I can see 19, but the last two digits are illegible. I can't read
4 the last two digits.
5 Q. All right. And if you go further down, where it says street
6 number, residence, place of municipality, what does it say there?
7 A. It says "Srebrenica," and underneath it says "Bratunac," but the
8 word "Bratunac" is crossed out, I think.
9 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever -- what is this document -- and what is
10 the date for this document?
11 A. 14 July 1995.
12 Q. All right. Now, is the second page relevant?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. All right. Incidentally, before we get to the second page, under
15 date, the second column -- if you go back to the first page, sir.
16 Mr. Celanovic, if I could direct your attention to the first page, where
17 it says "date." Okay. I want you to look at the column 2026. Do you see
18 a date there?
19 A. Yes, the date is 15 July. Now I can see it. Yes, 15 July. I
20 apologise. I only looked at the top of the page before, just the first
21 entry on the top of that page.
22 Q. And, sir, if we go further down, to 2028, it would appear that
23 that would be the date, 15 July 1995. Right?
24 A. Yes, that name under that number is that date.
25 Q. Okay. If we go to the second page, is there anything significant
1 that we need to be aware of?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what is it?
4 A. In the third column from the bottom towards the top of the page.
5 Q. Okay. Yes. What about it? What does it say there?
6 A. It says "Dr. Bozica" in the top left corner. In the right upper
7 corner of that column, it says the treatment of wound.
8 Q. Okay. And what treatment did he receive? What treatment does it
9 appear that this gentleman by the name of Resid received?
10 A. I don't know what wound he had or if he had any at all.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Will you allow me to read this to the end?
13 Q. Well, yes. Please.
14 A. Underneath, it says that he was referred to the surgical
15 department. And underneath again, it says admitted and then returned to
16 the surgical department again.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, these documents, after you received them
18 from Mr. Londrovic, did you do anything with them?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did you do?
21 A. I tried to deliver this document to the investigator of The Hague
22 Tribunal who had interviewed me. His name is Alistair Graham. This is
23 what I read on the card that I have.
24 Q. Okay. I think we've come across that name before. Well, did you
25 -- did he accept the documents?
1 A. Mr. Alistair did not refuse to accept the documents; however --
2 may I continue, please?
3 Q. Well, yes.
4 A. I spoke to him on the phone, and I informed him that I had a
5 written document, and I meant this document that I have before me as we
6 speak, and that this document confirmed that my statement given to him, to
7 Mr. Alistair Graham, was truthful.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. He told me that I could fax this document to him, but that I
10 should wait a little for him to check whether the Prosecution had that
11 document already. Maybe he had it already he said.
12 Q. All right. Did he get back to you? Did Mr. Graham return -- get
13 back to you?
14 A. No, he didn't get back to me; I called him two, maybe three times.
15 I wanted to be sure that they would receive my fax, that -- when I sent
16 it. I spoke to Mr. Alistair again and he told me that due to the holiday
17 period in January -- and during that holiday period he would again come to
18 Bratunac and that if I had that document -- or if he had that document,
19 that he would bring it with him, because he would have had the time to
20 check whether he had it and to bring it with him. If he didn't have that
21 document, on the other hand, then he would take it from me.
22 Q. All right. Now, did he ever come to pick up the document or to
23 show you a copy of the document?
24 A. No, he never did.
25 Q. Did you ever manage to fax it or deliver it to Alistair Graham,
1 who was an investigator for the Office of the Prosecution working directly
2 on this case?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And when was that, sir?
5 A. This was in April. I believe it was the end of April when I was
6 submitted a transcript of my interview with Alistair, as well as a CD, and
7 when I was told that I had been proposed to be the Defence counsel and
8 that they could not contact me as such any longer -- any more.
9 Q. So that would have been April 2004?
10 A. Yeah, this year. Yes, yes. I apologise because of my
12 Q. All right. Now, since we're with -- we're talking about Resid
13 Sinanovic. I want to stay with him and I want to discuss what happened.
14 First of all, did you know Resid Sinanovic?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. First of all, who is -- how did you know him?
17 A. We were good colleagues, the two of us. We were good friends. We
18 were both fishermen, anglers, we were comrades. This is as much as I can
19 put into this description. Need I say more?
20 Q. And was he an educated man, Mr. Sinanovic?
21 A. Yes, he was. He was a jurist.
22 Q. Now, what -- prior to the war, where did Mr. Sinanovic live?
23 A. He lived in Bratunac.
24 Q. And what position -- what kind of work did Mr. Sinanovic do?
25 A. For a while he performed the duty of head of the police station,
1 of the SUP. And the last post which he held over the last year or two
2 years, I'm not quite sure, was this post that he had with the decorative
3 ceramic tiles factory in Bratunac as a secretary.
4 Q. And that was the same factory where in 1995 the Bratunac Brigade
5 headquarters were located. Correct?
6 A. It is the same factory, but when I used to visit him prior to the
7 war, he was sitting in the building where the military police was, or
8 rather, his office was there, and that also belonged to the same. It was
9 a detached building of the same factory.
10 Q. All right. Just for a point of clarification, earlier you said
11 that he was with the Bratunac Brigade -- I mean, with the -- he was with
12 the police department, and it says here "SUP." He was head of the police
13 station of the SUP. Would that be MUP, M-U-P?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. Now, when the war broke out, do you know what happened
16 to Mr. Sinanovic?
17 A. Well, he fled Bratunac.
18 Q. Do you know where he went?
19 A. I don't know where he went. Probably to Srebrenica.
20 Q. All right. Now, you talked a little bit yesterday about your
21 position in interviewing prisoners of war that were brought to you. Were
22 you at any point in time made aware of Mr. Sinanovic being a potential or
23 an alleged war criminal?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And could you please tell us what the circumstances were. What
1 had you learned?
2 A. Well, I probably already mentioned that I participated in the
3 collection of information about the war crimes committed by Muslims
4 against the Serbs - I mean in Srebrenica and Bratunac - and that in the
5 process I had occasion to hear, in taking statements from the Serbian
6 civilians who had survived massacres in the Serbian villages. Namely,
7 some of them mentioned Resid Sinanovic as a person who had participated in
8 the attack on the village of Bjelovac. However, these statements
9 associated with him were not at all logical and that is why I did not
10 indeed accept them as serious statements. Nevertheless, his name came to
11 feature on record as a person suspected of war crimes in the book which I
12 referred to yesterday written by the author Ivanisevic.
13 Q. All right. Now, did you place his name or forward his name to be
14 placed in that book? Because if I believe your previous testimony, you
15 were forwarding information to a commission regarding alleged war
17 A. No, no. There was no grounds for that whatsoever.
18 Q. Now, when -- in 1995 in July, after the fall of Srebrenica, did
19 you get an opportunity to see Mr. Sinanovic?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. And could you please tell us, if you recall, the date.
22 A. It was the 13th of July, 1995.
23 Q. Would you please tell us where you saw him.
24 A. I saw him at my office.
25 Q. Would you please tell us how it is that Mr. Sinanovic came to your
1 office or appeared at your office.
2 A. He was brought there by Mr. Momir Nikolic.
3 Q. Do you recall -- I'll wait.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: Perhaps the volume is ...
5 Q. Can you hear me?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. And if you have any problems with hearing, let us
9 Okay. Now, when Mr. Nikolic brought him over there, did
10 Mr. Nikolic say anything to you?
11 A. No translation. I'm getting no translation.
12 Q. All right. Well --
13 A. I cannot reply, not having heard your question translated.
14 Q. Don't panic. Don't panic.
15 A. There is no panic, in fact. I apologise, but that's the way it
17 Q. That's all right. That's all right.
18 When Momir Nikolic brought Mr. Sinanovic over, did he say anything
19 to you? Mr. Nikolic, that is.
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 Q. And could you please tell us what he told you.
22 A. He told me there -- actually, he got a hold of me outside, in the
23 courtyard. He told me: Here, look, I've brought your colleague Resid
24 Sinanovic. Come with me to the office. Take a look at these statements
25 that you have, because he has been suspected of war crimes, and look in
1 your statements whether you have anything serious which would attest to
3 Q. All right. Could you please tell us about what time of day it
4 would have been on the 13th of July, 1995, that Momir Nikolic brought
5 Mr. Sinanovic over to your office.
6 A. Well, it was in the morning hours, sometime around 10.00 or 11.00.
7 I cannot say with precision.
8 Q. All right. And after Mr. Nikolic told you that he had brought
9 your colleague, Mr. Sinanovic, what did you and perhaps even Mr. Nikolic
11 A. First of all, we entered the office.
12 Q. And when you entered the office, could you please explain to us,
13 in what condition did you find Mr. Sinanovic?
14 A. Yes. My colleague Mr. Resid Sinanovic looked tired, but he looked
15 physically sound, unhurt. He was sitting there on a chair. As I came in,
16 we greeted each other normal fashion, like normal people. We struck -- we
17 started talking to each other.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. In the meanwhile, Momir Nikolic said goodbye to Resid and he went
20 out. He said: I'm going out to the terrain, and that's what he said;
22 Q. Now, was Mr. Sinanovic restrained in any way? Did he have any
23 handcuffs on him?
24 A. No, he wasn't. He didn't.
25 Q. Now, could you please tell us, after Momir Nikolic left your
1 office to go to the terrain, as he had said, what did you do?
2 A. I went on talking with Mr. Sinanovic. It was only normal for us
3 to talk to each other. We hadn't seen each other for four years, so we
4 sat there, and I offered him some coffee, which he accepted, and I also
5 offered him some snacks and he had a bit to eat. I also offered what
6 cigarettes I had and also a glass of brandy. So whatever I had, I offered
7 to him. And we talked about everything.
8 Q. How long -- I didn't mean to interrupt you there. How long did
9 you talk with Mr. Sinanovic, approximately?
10 A. Well, initially for about 45 minutes or half an hour. That's how
11 it was.
12 Q. Now, you had been given some instructions from Mr. Nikolic?
13 A. Nothing specific.
14 Q. All right. But I have -- okay. Well, if I could refer back to
15 your earlier statement or your earlier comments, Mr. Nikolic had asked
16 you, had he not, to look to some -- to see whether there was any
17 information regarding the allegations against Mr. Sinanovic.
18 A. Yes. I apologise, I did not get your last question correctly, and
19 if that is it, yes.
20 Q. All right. No need to apologise.
21 Now, did you have a conversation with Mr. Sinanovic regarding any
22 activities he might have been involved in or anyone else might have been
23 involved in concerning war crimes?
24 A. I told him this: I told him that I already had a position of my
25 own on the question, namely -- well, I cannot exactly say what I said on
1 that occasion because I had to be courteous in this court. I said there
2 was no reason for him to have been labelled in this way at all, especially
3 given the fact that, in addition to him, his wife had also been labelled
4 as such and that I thought -- it was my position that he had nothing
5 whatsoever to do with it and that he should not be worried at all. And
6 then we didn't talk about it anymore.
7 Q. Did you collect any other information from him with respect to the
8 Muslim fighters that were in Srebrenica but had --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. Did you by any chance memorialise, take notes,
11 regarding your conversation with Mr. Sinanovic?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. All right. Now, let me show you what has been marked as P476 and
14 has come into evidence in fact. A is the English version, B is the
15 handwritten version. Take your time. Please look at the document first.
16 When you're through looking at it, let me know and I'll ask you some
18 A. All right.
19 Q. First of all, do you recognise the handwriting on this document?
20 A. Yes. It is my handwriting.
21 Q. All right. And do you recognise the subject matter that is in
22 this document that bears your handwriting?
23 A. Yes. This is a record of the statement of Resid Sinanovic, but
24 rather, his account of things than a formal statement.
25 Q. All right. And do these notes reflect the nature of your
1 conversation with respect to the events surrounding -- the Muslim
2 population that had left Srebrenica? Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Now, if we look at this document, it would appear that there is
5 information on this document that might be relevant to your commander or
6 to the security organ or intelligence organ. Correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. My first question is: Did you pass this document on to anyone, or
9 this information on to anyone up the chain of command so at least they
10 would be aware of what Mr. Sinanovic had told you?
11 A. No, I didn't.
12 Q. Did you --
13 A. No. Sorry. I thought you had completed your question.
14 Q. All right. Did you share this information with Momir Nikolic, the
15 individual who had brought Resid Sinanovic to your office?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you share this information with Colonel Beara in any way?
18 A. No, I didn't. No.
19 Q. Did you share this information with your commander, Colonel
21 A. No.
22 Q. Would you please tell us, considering that, as we've discussed
23 yesterday, at one point during this war you had activities related to
24 counter-intelligence activities, or the gathering of counter-intelligence
25 information, could you please tell us why you did not share this
1 information with anyone.
2 A. The data contained in this note actually reflects a spontaneous
3 conversation between Resid Sinanovic and myself. And basically I told him
4 what my role on that day was, to try and record the people, or rather, to
5 check whether the people being brought in were on the list of suspects of
6 war crimes against the civilian population. He was aware of this role of
7 my mine, and I asked him and told him that it would be very useful if he
8 knew anything - after all, he knew what I was doing - to tell me where --
9 if he knew where Naser's commanders were with the troops.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. In particular, where the commanders were, because all of them had
12 been, in a way, on record as suspects for war crimes committed against
13 civilians in attacking Serbian villages and torching Serbian villages when
14 a lot of people died.
15 Q. All right. But specifically I want to focus your attention to the
16 language in your notes where it states that: "This morning, about a
17 thousand to 1.500 armed men remained. About 6 to 7.000 remained in the
18 spot where the shells landed."
19 And it goes on. This information would appear to be somewhat
20 significant, in light of the fact that we're talking about armed Muslim
21 men whom you knew had committed, or were accused of having committed
22 atrocities against the Serbs. Did you not think it was necessary for you
23 to bring this to anyone's attention so they could act upon it?
24 A. Yes, because according to the order from Mr. Beara, I was not
25 supposed to focus on that particular part. This is just an account by
1 Resid Sinanovic without him having been asked any specific questions. So
2 I just put it down so it would be obvious that I had indeed conducted this
3 conversation with him. And secondly, in the classical and conventional
4 sense, one could not use this particular bit of information at all because
5 we had a moving army and moving people, movement of the people and of
6 troops. So it was not a question of the day; it was a question of a
7 situation changing from hour to hour.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. And actually, no one wanted me to -- required me to pass on such
10 information to anyone.
11 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Celanovic, before we talk about what happened
12 during your visit with Mr. Sinanovic, I want to take the opportunity to
13 inform you that during this trial a Prosecution witness, former employee
14 of theirs, Richard Butler, indicated - and I'm reading from page 4.486,
15 lines 10 through 12 - that: "These interrogation notes were found in the
16 security office of the Bratunac or of the former Bratunac Light Infantry
17 Brigade during the OTP search."
18 That's a quote/unquote from the record on 13 November 2003.
19 You've just told us that you didn't pass this information on to
20 Momir Nikolic, whom we all know was the head of security and intelligence
21 of the Bratunac Brigade. Would you please explain to us how it is that
22 these notes then landed in his office.
23 A. It is a fact that I never handed over these notes to him. After I
24 compiled them, I put them somewhere in my office, in one of the drawers.
25 They were insignificant; I didn't even give it a second thought. How they
1 came to end up in Momir Nikolic's office, I have no idea. I have no
2 explanation. Maybe after I started working in the civilian sector -- I
3 find it inexplicable, in fact.
4 Q. Let me help you out here, or perhaps you can help us out. We
5 know, having heard the testimony of one Ruez, who was the chief
6 investigator at the time, that some years after commencing the
7 investigation in this case at about 1998, he received -- he got the
8 documents from what he believed to have been the headquarters of the
9 Bratunac Brigade. Could you please tell us, in 1998, where was the
10 Bratunac Brigade located? Where were their offices located at that point
11 in time, if you know?
12 A. I do know that the headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade at the
13 time -- was relocated at the time to the former building of the military
14 police, which I already referred to as the auxiliary building in front of
15 the gate to the ceramic tiles factory called Kaolin.
16 Q. All right. And that would have been --
17 A. So it was in another place. Sorry.
18 Q. And that would have been the same building where your offices were
19 located back in 1995. Am I correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. All right. Perhaps that might assist us in figuring out why they
22 ended up there.
23 Now, getting back to Resid Sinanovic, while he was in your office
24 did anyone else visit him?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And could you please tell us who.
2 A. A friend of his from Bratunac, Srbislav Davidovic, aka Buco.
3 Q. And what was Mr. Davidovic's position at that point in time, in
4 the community of Bratunac, that is, if you recall?
5 A. I think that he was a civilian working with the municipal
6 authorities. And also, he had this duty which he had performed for many
7 years, that is, the peoples' university director. I'm not sure what he
8 was at that particular point in time.
9 Q. Could you please explain to us, if you can, how is it that
10 Mr. Davidovic knew that Mr. Sinanovic was in your office at that point in
12 A. I don't know how he came by that information. He only told me
13 that he had heard that Momir had brought Resid in, and he asked whether he
14 could see him. So he heard from somebody; I don't know who from.
15 Obviously I allowed him to come into my office, because the three of us
16 were colleagues and even friends.
17 Q. All right. Could you please tell us what, if anything, happened
18 or what, if anything, was discussed when Mr. Davidovic was there visiting
19 you and Mr. Sinanovic.
20 A. Yes. It was an informal conversation about life and things of
21 that sort. We didn't talk about the army or anything of that sort. I
22 left the office for a while. The two of them were better friends than
23 Resid and I, so I thought it would be a courteous thing for me to step out
24 of the office and leave the two of them alone. I was standing in front of
25 the building for about an hour. I was in the courtyard of the building.
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. And then I returned to my office.
3 Q. All right. Do you know about how long Mr. Davidovic visited?
4 A. About an hour or so.
5 Q. All right. After Mr. Davidovic left, what did you -- what
6 happened or what did you do with Mr. Sinanovic?
7 A. We talked some more, and then he was taken away to the school,
8 which was a collection centre.
9 Q. All right. First of all, how long was Mr. Sinanovic there before
10 he was, as you put it, taken away to the school which was the collection
12 A. An hour or two hours from the moment when he first came to the
13 moment when he was taken to the collection centre. It could have been
14 less or maybe more. I don't know for a fact. I didn't pay too much
15 attention to the time that he spent in my office. I didn't look at the
16 watch. And even if I had, I would have forgotten by now. It was a long
17 time ago.
18 Q. All right. Could you please tell us, who came by to take him
19 away? Who were these individuals?
20 A. They were members of a unit which was not from Bratunac. I didn't
21 know them. They were the same soldiers who, immediately after Nikolic had
22 brought Resid in, also brought some five or six other people, whose
23 particulars I took while I was standing outside while Srbislav and Resid
24 were talking in my office.
25 Q. All right. Do you know whether they were part of the military or
1 whether they were part of MUP?
2 A. They were part of the military. They had a coat of arms of
3 Republika Srpska. I didn't know -- I didn't see which unit they belonged
4 to. I didn't come any closer. They were rather arrogant. I believe that
5 they belonged to a special military police unit, because they were in
6 charge of taking this group of people to the school to hand them over to
7 the people there.
8 Q. All right. Did they have any -- other than the coat of arms that
9 you were able to note, did they have any other insignia or any other --
10 any other insignia, let's stay with that, that would indicate whether they
11 were soldiers or part of the military police?
12 A. I didn't see anything. They may have had something, but I didn't
13 see it.
14 Q. All right. Do you recall whether their uniforms had any distinct
15 colours or anything that would set them out, set them apart?
16 A. No special colours. They had military overalls, good-quality
17 military overalls, of the sort that our troops in Bratunac didn't have.
18 Some did, but not all of them. They had different sorts of uniforms. And
19 judging by their behaviour and their appearance, they were members of some
20 important unit; they were not from the Bratunac Brigade. I didn't dare
21 ask them.
22 Q. Well, let me just walk you through. All right. First of all, did
23 they inform you who their commander was?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did they inform you who had instructed them to come to the
1 Bratunac Brigade to either bring prisoners to you or to take prisoners
2 away from you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, you said you didn't ask them. Is there a particular reason
5 why you didn't ask them, you know: Who are you? What are you doing? On
6 whose instructions you are here?
7 A. There is a reason. They appeared and asked for somebody to point
8 them in the direction of the school, because they were there to take these
9 people to the school.
10 Q. All right. When they came to take Resid Sinanovic away - someone
11 who you knew as a colleague and as a friend, who you had concluded, even
12 before meeting him, that he was not a war criminal - why did you not
13 refuse to give Mr. Sinanovic to these individuals to take him away to the
14 collection centre?
15 A. Because I believed that they were following a procedure and that
16 Resid was not threatened in any way. By being taken to the collection
17 centre, he would stay alive, that there was no threat for him.
18 Q. At that point in time, sir, did you know what was going to happen
19 to the individuals -- or what did you think would happen to the
20 individuals, I should say, that were taken to the collection centre?
21 A. I didn't think anything would happen to him. I simply thought
22 that once he was in the collection centre, that they would all be
23 transported to Kladanj, Tuzla, Zvornik, or the nearest part of the
24 territory under the control of the Muslim armed forces. I believed that
25 these people would just be evacuated, as simple as that.
1 Q. And what was the basis of this belief?
2 A. There was no reason for me to believe anything else or think
3 anything else. It would not be logical for me to believe or think
4 anything else. How could I ever think that somebody had the intention to
5 hurt, harm, or kill so many people? And my belief was spontaneously
6 corroborated by my conversation with Colonel Beara.
7 Q. All right. Well, we're going to get to that. We're going to get
8 to Colonel Beara. Now, were you in Potocari on that day or the day
10 A. Yes. In front of Potocari, or before Potocari.
11 Q. Did you go to Potocari where the mass of people were located that
12 had come from Srebrenica and were there with the Dutch?
13 A. No.
14 Q. From where you had gone to -- first of all, how far towards
15 Potocari you had gone? You know that there's a yellow bridge as you leave
16 Bratunac and before you get to Potocari; had you passed the yellow bridge,
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How far past the checkpoint had you gone toward Potocari?
20 A. I drove as far as the building of Elektrodistribucija, which is at
21 the entrance to Potocari.
22 Q. Do you recall what day that was that you drove to this location?
23 A. I'm not sure. Maybe on the same day when Resid was in my office.
24 Q. All right. Do you recall what time of day it was when you drove
25 to that location?
1 A. Midday. After 1.00 in the afternoon maybe, but I can't be sure of
3 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us, what were the reasons for you
4 going to that location?
5 A. I went there by accident.
6 Q. All right. Well, one doesn't get to one location by accident.
7 You had to --
8 A. Yes, you're right. Can I explain then?
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Initially I wanted to go to Vihor, to my company. I wanted to
11 take some stationery, some paper and carbon paper. I was short on
12 supplies in my office. I passed by the medical centre and I saw Dr. Vesna
13 Ivanovic and a nurse who asked me to give them a lift. We talked, and I
14 believe that they were a team on duty to -- who were being sent to the
15 place where there was a lot of people gathering. I took them to the
16 building of Elektrodistribucija and some 100 or 150 metres in front of me
17 I saw a convoy of members of the United Nations across the road, and
18 behind them I saw a crowd of people. I left the two of them there because
19 I had some chores to do. I went to my office to fetch the stationery, and
20 then I returned. That's why I say I found myself there by accident,
21 because I didn't have any intention of going there in the first place. I
22 didn't have any reason to find myself there.
23 Q. All right. Just a couple of questions before we -- short ones,
24 hopefully. Did you get out of your car at that point to walk around?
25 A. No.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, perhaps this might be a good time for
2 a break.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll have a break and we'll resume at quarter to
5 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, before we hear the witness, are there any
8 matters? Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I think we can save some time
10 by me just clarifying an issue, and I've spoken to Mr. Karnavas about this
12 At the break I talked to Mr. Graham to refresh my recollection on
13 the subject matter of these medical records of -- possible medical records
14 of Resid Sinanovic. And Mr. Graham did acknowledge that he did have
15 communications with this witness regarding those documents, and that was
16 at a time prior to Momir Nikolic's plea. And the witness did tell us that
17 he had received these documents from Mr. Nikolic's lawyer. And so what
18 Mr. Graham had said is that, well, we are not sure we can get this
19 material at this time, given that it may be confidential material. And so
20 that's why there was a delay.
21 In April, after I believe the matter with Mr. Nikolic was
22 resolved, Bruce Bursik was in Bratunac and did meet with the witness and
23 picked up these -- copies of these materials. And shortly thereafter, in
24 May, those materials were provided to the Defence. So Mr. Shin won't be
25 asking too many questions, hopefully, on that topic as I think that sort
1 of should have clarified it. And I didn't think it was a big enough issue
2 to worry about rebuttal witnesses and that sort of thing. And I think
3 Mr. Karnavas agrees with me that this should at least clear it up for now,
4 unless anyone has any more questions.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
6 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I have nothing to add. I think it's a perfectly
8 acceptable explanation. Circumstantial evidence, we can see how it can
9 sometimes lead us to the wrong conclusions.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I have no comments on that.
11 Well, could we have the witness, please.
12 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
14 Q. Mr. Celanovic, now I believe you indicated that at some point
15 there were several other Muslim males that came or were brought to you for
16 you to question. Is that correct?
17 A. It is correct that there were some other men, Muslim men, who were
18 not brought to me for interrogation. They were brought because the
19 soldiers who escorted them didn't know where the school was. And I
20 explained to those soldiers what my role was on that day, and they
21 understood that.
22 Q. All right. Did you question any of those individuals, those
23 Muslim men that were with those soldiers?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did you make notes of that questioning?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, could you please -- we began -- first
3 of all, let me ask you: Why did you question those individuals?
4 A. It was not a classical interrogation. My obligation was to find
5 out who these people were, where they were headed, and how they had
6 reached Bratunac. Another thing that I was supposed to ask them was
7 whether they were aware of the whereabouts of Naser's commanders, for the
8 reasons that I have already explained.
9 Q. And on whose orders or instructions were you questioning these
11 A. Mr. Ljubisa Beara's orders and instructions, who was a
12 high-ranking security officer.
13 Q. All right. And I don't know if I asked you this question
14 yesterday, and if I have I apologise, but when Mr. Beara gave you this
15 order, did you inform Colonel Blagojevic that you were conducting this
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. I'm told that perhaps the translation was not accurate, so let me
19 ask the question again. When Colonel Beara gave -- issued this order to
20 you, did you inform your commander, Colonel Blagojevic, that you had been
21 instructed by Colonel Beara to carry out this activity?
22 A. No. I didn't know where Commander Blagojevic was, and I was never
23 asked to inform Commander Blagojevic about that.
24 Q. Well, let me show you some documents, a list of documents. And
25 for the sake of time I'm going to hand you what has been marked for
1 identification as P477, P478, and P479. I believe these documents have
2 been introduced into evidence already. If you could look at -- if you
3 could look at those documents and first of all please tell us if you
4 recognise the handwriting.
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And whose handwriting is it?
7 A. This is my handwriting.
8 Q. Do you recall when you made these notations?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Okay. When was it that you made these notations?
11 A. On 13 July 1995.
12 Q. And what were these notations in relation to? Why were they made?
13 A. They referred to my identification of the persons who had been
14 brought, and the purpose was to see whether any of them was on record as a
15 suspect of war crimes against the civilian Serbian population.
16 Q. Did you also question these individuals with respect to others who
17 might be on any lists?
18 A. Yes. First, I identified these persons, and you can find their
19 names here. None of these individuals had been recorded on any lists of
20 suspect, save for Resid Sinanovic. In order to curtail the whole
21 procedure, I focused on finding out from them where Naser's commanders
22 were. Those are a few people whose names are mentioned here. Not all of
23 them, but some of them. And that's the kind of answers they gave me.
24 Q. All right. And what happened to these notes once you completed
25 them? What did you do with them?
1 A. I left them in my office, either on one of the shelves or in my
2 desk, because nothing significant had happened. None of these persons
3 were identified as suspects. To my mind, their record was clean, and then
4 they were taken to the school.
5 Q. All right. Well, let me stop you there. How long did you
6 question these individuals?
7 A. A couple minutes, three minutes, five minutes, depending on how
8 much they had to tell me. And then I made some very informal notes on the
9 conversations that I had.
10 Q. Where did this questioning take place?
11 A. Outside. In front of the building in which my office was.
12 Q. Well, if you had --
13 A. The courtyard.
14 Q. Well, if you had an office that was only a few metres away, why
15 didn't you question them in your office?
16 A. During that time, Resid Sinanovic and Srbislav Davidovic were in
17 my office for an hour; they were talking there. And even if they hadn't
18 been there, I would have still talked to these people outside, because it
19 was very, very hot. And my conversation with these people was informal,
20 in the shade. There was no need for me to take them to my office and
21 waste time in this very, very hot room.
22 Q. Now, the individuals that brought -- the soldiers that brought
23 these Muslim men to you, where were they when you were conducting this
25 A. They were there.
1 Q. How were these Muslim men brought to you?
2 A. Excuse me. They were brought in front of the military police
3 building, and these soldiers asked for directions to the elementary school
4 in which would be accommodated, i.e., receive these Muslims.
5 Q. Let me get back to my question: How were they brought there by
6 these soldiers? Were they on foot? Were they in a particular vehicle?
7 A. Yes, I understand the question. They were in a vehicle, and this
8 vehicle is called, in soldiers' lingo, the 110 vehicle. It is a small
9 truck, in fact, intended for personnel, i.e., troops, transportation,
10 because it has seats, and of course cargo can also be transported. I
11 cannot tell you the exact make and manufacture of the car, and this was a
12 designation that was used by us all, 110.
13 Q. Would that be a 110 TAM, T-A-M? Is that what we're talking about?
14 A. I told you I wasn't sure of the make. It is probably a T-A-M 110,
15 because we had many vehicles manufactured for the army by TAM.
16 Q. Do you know from which unit this vehicle was from?
17 A. I don't know that.
18 Q. All right. Now, I believe in one of your previous answers you
19 talked about -- you indicated that none of the individuals that you spoke
20 with were on any lists, correct, at least any lists that you were aware
21 of. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, except for Resid Sinanovic, who I believe was recorded in the
23 book, but these other persons weren't.
24 Q. All right. Now, let me show you what has come into evidence as
25 P442. 442/B is the Srpski version; A is the English version. Could you
1 just look at that list first of all.
2 A. Yes, yes. I looked at it.
3 Q. Now, according to -- again, the former employee of the Office of
4 the Prosecution, Richard Butler, on page 4.440 he indicated that he
5 believed that: "In January or February 1998, these documents were found
6 at the headquarters of the former Bratunac Brigade, specifically in the
7 office of the security officer of the Bratunac Brigade." That would be
8 found on lines 19 through 22.
9 So could you please explain to us, first of all, whether you had
10 seen this list.
11 A. No. This is not my list, nor have I seen it -- had I ever seen it
12 before, except for today.
13 Q. And of course, going back to your earlier answer, in 1998 the
14 Bratunac Brigade headquarters were located in the facilities where your
15 office was located in 1995. Correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, back in 1995, where was Mr. Momir Nikolic's office located,
18 if you know, sir?
19 A. Yes, I know where it was. It was in the headquarters building of
20 the brigade, headquarters brigade, which is the factory building within
21 the compound of the clay or ceramic factory, which is to say outside the
22 building where my office was.
23 Q. All right. Now, first of all, in looking at this document, the
24 one that you have, do you -- can you recognise the typing machine which
25 might have generated this particular document? Would this be one that was
1 in your possession, in your office, at the time?
2 A. No. This text was typewritten by an electric machine whereas the
3 typewriter which I used throughout that period was a mechanical one and it
4 didn't have this particular shape of letters. I am well-versed in
5 machines, and this was typewritten on an electrical machine - I mean
6 typewriter - that I never had.
7 Q. Now, to the best of your knowledge, you never saw this, you did
8 not have this list back in July 1995. Is that correct? Is that what
9 you're stating?
10 A. That's right. I never saw this list, and as I stated I used this
11 book, Chronicle of Our Graveyards, which has systematised material with
12 the names of the people.
13 Q. When you were questioned by the Office of the Prosecution back on
14 10 December 2003, do you recall whether this list was shown to you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. It was not shown to you?
17 A. No, it wasn't shown to me.
18 Q. Now, have you had a chance before coming here today, before
19 testifying under oath, to look at this list?
20 A. Yes, I saw the list that you showed me.
21 Q. Well, is this the same list? That's what I'm asking you.
22 A. I didn't understand the question. Can it be put more precisely,
24 Q. Okay. Before coming here today to testify, okay -- and we know
25 the Prosecutor never showed you the document, but before coming to testify
1 here, did you have a chance to look at this document?
2 A. Before taking the stand today, I saw this document during the
3 proofing, the preparations for testifying before you.
4 Q. And that was a couple of days ago?
5 A. Yes, before -- before I entered this courtroom for the first time.
6 Q. Okay. Now, in looking at this list, do you recognise the names on
7 the list, or at least some of the names on the list?
8 A. I do recognise some of the names, and I have recognised some of
9 them. And given the nature of this list, some of these names should
10 certainly not be on the list.
11 Q. Okay. Could you give us a representative example.
12 A. Well, there are a number of them, but I will give you an example.
13 Just a minute, please. Bear with me until I can find it.
14 Q. Perhaps it might save some time if I were to present you with my
15 copy. And I will ask some foundational questions first.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Let me show you --
18 A. Thank you.
19 Q. -- another copy of P442/B. On that particular copy, sir, you see
20 some highlighted -- a blue highlight on the page, do you not? Some of the
21 names have been highlighted. Correct?
22 A. Yes. Correct.
23 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us, who placed those highlights
25 A. I highlighted those names. I highlighted them when I was going
1 through the list.
2 Q. Okay. And just -- we don't have to go through all of them, but if
3 you could read out the number of some of those highlights and please tell
4 us or give us your opinion with respect to some of the names that occur on
5 this list --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- that you believe have no reason to be on this list.
8 A. Number 15.
9 Q. Okay. Now, what is wrong with number 15?
10 A. Number 16 --
11 Q. Okay. Cekaj. Hold on for one second. As we go through each
12 name, I would like you to give a short explanation as to why you believe
13 this individual should not be on the list.
14 Okay. So number 15. Okay, who is this person and why is it your
15 belief --
16 A. Oh, I see.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: And I think that will be fine, Mr. Usher, so you
19 don't have to trouble yourself.
20 A. So number 15, Dzevad, father Hamed, Gusic, born in 1960 in
21 Bratunac. I know him personally. He was or is still a deputy of the
22 Assembly of Republika Srpska, and he performed the -- the same duty as I
23 did in Bratunac is what he did in the Srebrenica armed forces, but there
24 was never any report of any untoward behaviour on the part of this person
25 and he should not be on this list definitely. I should like to know that
1 on the list we have organisers of war crimes. So prior to the war, he
2 never participated in any such crime.
3 Q. I'm going to need you to speak a little slower. Okay. All right.
4 So on this list, if I understand you correctly, you do recognise names
5 which you believe were accused or were alleged to have committed war
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, what other names on this -- on the first page that you see
9 should not be on this list?
10 A. Number 16, Izet, father Sulejman, Gusic.
11 Q. Can you please tell us why you think this individual shouldn't be
12 on the list.
13 A. Because no one ever heard of him having done anything ugly, and
14 specifically nothing of the kind that these people on the list are alleged
15 to have done.
16 Q. Anybody else?
17 A. Well, there are many of them, many more of them, if you will allow
19 Q. Okay. Just pick a sample. We don't have to go through the entire
21 A. Well, as a sample, 71 and 72.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Nurija, father Hamdija, Dzanic; and Salcin, father Hamdija,
24 Dzanic. These are people who fled from Bratunac sometime in March 1992.
25 They were not in the area of Bratunac and Srebrenica during the war in the
1 first place. They had no opportunity to do what they are alleged to have
2 done. And these are decent people and should certainly not be on this
3 list which was made arbitrarily by someone.
4 Q. Anyone else?
5 A. Yes, there are more, if you will allow me. I don't know how much
6 time we have. Let me just tell you the numbers. It is, for instance, 35,
7 Enver Kubat, a physician, a doctor, who might have been in Srebrenica
8 possibly performing his duties as a doctor. And another example -- no,
9 there are many examples, and I would be happy as to read all of them so
10 you would know that these were decent people. And out of respect of those
11 people I would like to read out all of their names. They were Muslims,
12 but of course they were decent people in my mind. May I?
13 Q. Well, for the sake of time, let me ask a couple of questions.
14 A. All right.
15 Q. Are there any women on this list?
16 A. Yes, there are.
17 Q. And in your opinion, were these women alleged to have been war
19 A. One of them was.
20 Q. What are the others?
21 A. Well, I never heard of these others. This one I know.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. That's number 23.
24 THE INTERPRETER: 323, interpreter's correction.
25 MR. KARNAVAS:
1 Q. Okay. And do you know who might have compiled this list?
2 A. No. I have no idea who could have compiled this list, but that
3 someone was not very critical in compiling this list, but perhaps was
4 tendentious, because this list should certainly not include some of these
6 Q. In light of your position of having to question the occasional
7 prisoner of war, were you ever provided a list by Momir Nikolic, the
8 commander for intelligence and security for the Bratunac Brigade?
9 A. I do not remember having ever been provided any list by him. It
10 was rather that he received lists from me, partial ones.
11 Q. All right. Very well. I think that's about it for this
12 particular list.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, let's go back to July 13th. You indicated you had the
15 occasion to question certain individuals that were brought over by some
16 soldiers. Could you please tell us whether you saw, later that day,
17 Colonel Beara.
18 A. Yes. It was at dusk or in the evening.
19 Q. And could you please tell us where it was when you had this
20 meeting -- or when you met him, I should say.
21 A. At this same place as the previous -- as where the previous time
22 he informed me of what I was supposed to do, namely, to stay in front of
23 the building where my office was located.
24 Q. And what was the occasion for Colonel Beara to pay this visit to
1 A. He probably knew what inter alia was my duty. So that what he
2 confided in me was because he believed, I think, that I would carry out
3 the job the way he ordered me to.
4 Q. All right. When you met him, did you inform him about your
5 results from the questioning of the various individuals, including Resid
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you recall whether Colonel Beara made any inquiries as to
9 whether you had questioned anyone; and if so, whether you had obtained any
10 relevant or vital information?
11 A. He asked me whether anything had happened. No, we said, there was
12 nothing interesting. People had gone to the school, and that was about it
13 as far as our conversation was concerned. We -- it was just one sentence.
14 Q. All right. Would you repeat your answer again, and please speak
15 slowly so that the interpreters can catch every sentence.
16 A. During our next meeting, he asked me: Have you done anything
17 today? And I just told him: Well, they have brought in several people,
18 but it's okay, none of them are discredited people. And that was more or
19 less it. And then they went to the school and the story ended there.
20 There was nothing more to it.
21 Q. Okay. Now, after that, did you do anything with Colonel Beara?
22 Did you go anywhere?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you please describe to us where.
25 A. Well, before we started, we exchanged a couple of sentences to the
1 effect that it was not really secure to bring this number of prisoners
2 into a city where there were no troops. So he told me: Well, it's okay.
3 Let's go for a stroll. So we set off in front of the building where my
4 office was and walked down the street.
5 Q. Mr. Celanovic, kindly slow down. Kindly slow down. They have to
6 interpret. We don't want to overburden the people that are translating
7 you, so kindly slow down.
8 A. I apologise. I thought that I was slow enough.
9 So we set off together on foot in front of the building where my
10 office was, in the direction of the elementary school. So we eventually
11 arrived in this street which is nearby the bus station and leads from it
12 directly to the elementary school which is called the Branko Radicevic.
13 Q. Is that the same school that was called Vuk Karadzic?
14 A. I think so. I think that it is. When I gave my earlier
15 statements, I wasn't sure which school was which, but in the meantime,
16 before I came here, I inquired, so I found out that indeed it was this
17 school, Branko Radicevic. Probably the name was only changed.
18 Q. Can you tell us first of all what you observed when you were
19 there, taking this stroll with Colonel Beara.
20 A. I observed some vehicles, trucks, that is to say cargo trucks and
21 normal trucks -- and buses, sorry, which were full of people.
22 Q. And what were those people doing?
23 A. Nothing specific. They were sitting in these vehicles, either
24 with their buses or other vehicles. The street was full of these vehicles
25 all the way up to the school.
1 Q. And do you know who these people were that were in those vehicles,
2 the buses, the trucks?
3 A. Clearly they were Muslims, people that had been taken prisoner or
4 people who had surrendered.
5 Q. And did you know whether there were women and children in those
6 buses as well as men?
7 A. I did not see a single woman or a single child.
8 Q. Now, when you saw those buses and trucks full of Muslim males, did
9 you have any particular conversation with Colonel Beara, who, after all,
10 was the head of security of the Main Staff?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Would you please tell us what you two talked about.
13 A. Irrespective of the fact that he was a high-ranking security
14 officer, I felt free to ask him why these vehicles with the people in them
15 had not been transported immediately to where they were supposed to go,
16 which is to say to territory controlled by Muslim troops, why they had
17 these people sitting there waiting in our territory, around the school and
18 so on. It seemed they had already boarded these buses, why hadn't they
19 already been taken to their destination?
20 Q. And what was his response?
21 A. His response was that that was because a re-organisation of the
22 transport had to be carried out. In other words, there were too many
23 people per vehicle, and that on the return trip those vehicles that had
24 taken women and children to Kladanj, once those vehicles returned, a
25 better organisation or a re-organisation of the transportation of people
1 had to be undertaken and that they would be transported then to Kladanj or
3 Q. Did you notice who was securing these buses and trucks?
4 A. Mostly men, i.e., soldiers, similarly dressed as the people who
5 had brought in the group of people that I referred to earlier. It was
6 already dark, it was dusk, and I cannot be 100 per cent sure that these
7 were people who were not members of the Bratunac Brigade.
8 Q. Did you notice whether there were any members from the Bratunac
9 Brigade, in particular members of the military police of the Bratunac
10 Brigade? For surely you would have recognised their faces in light of the
11 fact that your office was in the same building where the military police
12 were housed.
13 A. I would have recognised such persons, had there been any, because
14 I knew the military police members and many other soldiers as well.
15 However, perhaps I failed to say something before. I did not go to the
16 very end of the street, but I stopped before the school, in front of the
17 school, and Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel Beara, he went on. And I could
18 see that the street leading to the municipality, there was some soldiers
19 in camouflage uniforms similar to the ones that we wore. But it was dusk,
20 so I allowed for the possibility of those people being even members of the
21 military police, but I can't be sure being at this distance of 50 metres
22 or so. But by the vehicles that came there were only and exclusively
23 members of some other units. I'm referring to the vehicles which were
24 parked in the street with the people inside or on those vehicles.
25 Q. Okay. Now, could you -- when Colonel Beara gave you that
1 explanation, would you please tell us what his demeanor was like. How did
2 he appear?
3 A. Normal.
4 Q. And did you believe Colonel Beara when he told you that?
5 A. Absolutely.
6 Q. Now, we've heard testimony here that Colonel Beara enjoyed,
7 perhaps on occasion, perhaps frequently, the taste for whiskey. Would you
8 happen to know whether on that particular evening when you were with
9 Colonel Beara, whether he was -- whether he had been drinking?
10 A. Not in front of me. He could not have had a drink in the
11 courtyard or on the street. Whether he had had a drink somewhere else, I
12 don't know. However, I believe that I'm experienced enough to recognise a
13 person who had been drinking. I don't know. I don't think so. I can't
14 be sure and I can't talk about it.
15 Q. Sorry, he did not -- did he appear sober?
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. Now, before departing with Colonel Beara, did you by any chance
18 sit and have a drink with him?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Would you please tell us about how long it took for you to walk
21 with Colonel Beara to make your observations. How long were you with him?
22 A. We arrived in that street where the vehicles were parked in front
23 of the police building, and it had taken us about 15 metres [as
24 interpreted]. The street is about 500 metres long. I walked behind him.
25 He exchanged a few words with those guards. I was keeping my distance. I
1 didn't want to interfere with his conversations. This is how long it took
2 us, 15 minutes, and then 10 minutes from the police station to the
3 building where we were headed to.
4 Q. All right. And about what time would this have been? You said it
5 was getting slightly dark or it was dusk. Do you recall about what time
6 it would have been, in light of the time of year that we're speaking
8 A. Most probably around 9.00 or half past 9.00, or between half past
9 8.00 and half past 9.00 p.m. I can't remember exactly. It was already
10 dusk. It was getting dark, and it was that time of the year. And I don't
11 know when it gets dark at that time of year. I know it was already dusk.
12 Q. All right. After you left Colonel Beara, where did you go?
13 A. Home.
14 Q. All right. And where is your home -- where was your home at that
15 point in time back in July 1995?
16 A. It is not a house; it is an apartment, a bedsitter in an apartment
17 building at the main crossroads in Bratunac. And I've lived there all the
18 time. I still live there.
19 Q. All right. Now, where was it that you left Colonel Beara? What
20 location was it?
21 A. In front of the sentry at the gate which leads towards the
22 headquarters building. There was a sentry there, in front of that gate.
23 Q. So that would have been back at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?
24 A. No. I didn't enter the courtyard of the building where the
25 headquarters was. I was in front of the gate.
1 Q. Okay. Mr. Celanovic, I'm trying to just get you to tell me:
2 Where was it that you left Colonel Beara, at what location the two of you
3 were. I know that you went home. I just want to know where you parted
4 with Colonel Beara.
5 A. When we returned from the rounds that we had made, I came with him
6 to the gate which is in front of the building where the headquarters was.
7 That's what I said. And only later did I go home.
8 Q. Okay. Now, did you see Momir Nikolic after that? After meeting
9 with Colonel Beara, did you happen to run into Momir Nikolic?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you report to anyone what you had seen during this stroll that
12 you had taken with Colonel Beara?
13 A. No. What I see -- what I saw the entire town saw and there was no
14 reason for me to inform anybody in particular.
15 Q. All right. Now, after going home, did you go out again that
17 A. I don't remember, but I don't think so.
18 Q. All right. Do you know what happened to those people that --
19 those men that were in those buses and trucks?
20 A. Would you please be more precise. Are you referring to that
21 particular day?
22 Q. Okay. Mr. Celanovic --
23 A. I apologise.
24 Q. That's all right. Do you know or have you learned what happened
25 to those men that were in the buses and trucks? Just say yes or no.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, could you please tell us what you know or what you've learned
3 regarding those men that were in those trucks and buses in the school, I
4 would imagine.
5 A. That they were evacuated and transported further on from Bratunac
6 to the territory under the control of Muslims.
7 Q. Mr. Celanovic, you never heard of any of those individuals being
9 A. I did, of course.
10 Q. Okay. Well, I just asked you what you heard -- what you learned
11 about those men, and now you just told me that they were safely evacuated
12 to the territories. So please tell us what you learned about these men
13 that were in those buses and trucks, if you know.
14 A. I learned that they had been transported and that later on many
15 people were killed. It's a well-known fact, unfortunately. These people
16 who had been in Bratunac were subsequently killed.
17 Q. Would you please tell us about what time you had learned this; the
18 month, the year.
19 A. A few days later.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. Three, four, or five days later. I don't know.
22 Q. Do you know from whom you had learned this information?
23 A. No, I don't. Slowly the whole town started talking about that;
24 the troops, the civilians, everybody.
25 Q. Okay. Now, in light of your position that you told us about early
1 on, were you ever asked to either participate in an investigation or to
2 question any suspects or witnesses that might have been involved in any of
3 those activities?
4 A. Nobody ever asked me to participate in any such activity. Nobody
5 was ever brought to me for interrogation about those things.
6 Q. All right. Now, did you see Colonel Beara after this -- after you
7 learned about what happened to the people?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And so I take it you never had the opportunity to contact him or
10 to speak with him and to ask him what had happened, in light of what he
11 had represented to you?
12 A. I did not have a single opportunity to talk to him. Maybe even if
13 I had had an opportunity to talk to him, I wouldn't have dared ask him
14 anything. Because I was a foot soldier, a common foot soldier, and it
15 would have been embarrassing for me to ask him about any data or details
16 in addition to the things that he had already told me.
17 Q. All right. Now I want to switch to another topic. Before I do
18 that, after the 13th, were you ever engaged in questioning anyone else,
19 any other prisoners?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Now, you say you don't remember. I'm talking about the period of
22 the 14th, the 15th, the 16th, the 17th, those days for the rest of July.
23 Do you recall whether you questioned anybody?
24 A. I do not remember that anybody was brought in on any of those
1 Q. All right. Now, let me switch to this other topic, and I want to
2 ask you a couple of questions before I show you a document. After the --
3 after Dayton, could you please tell us where you were engaged work-wise.
4 A. Before Dayton, a few days before, at the request of the political
5 structures in Bratunac municipality, I was assigned to perform the tasks
6 and duties of the chief for urban planning, housing, and juridic affairs
7 of Bratunac municipality.
8 Q. All right. As part of your function would you be involved in the
9 occupation of the -- of abandoned property?
10 A. Yes. I was involved in that.
11 Q. Was there any particular legislation at that point in time that
12 controlled the occupation of property that was abandoned?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Let me show you what has been marked as D170 for identification
15 purposes. If you could please look at it. We have an English
17 First of all, do you recognise this document, sir?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what is this document?
20 A. This is a decree of the Government of Republika Srpska regulating
21 the temporary use of houses and office space.
22 Q. And where is it from, sir?
23 A. This is abandoned property.
24 Q. All right. This decree itself, where would one locate this
25 particular decree, assuming that it's authentic?
1 A. It is authentic.
2 Q. How do we know that?
3 A. It was published in the -- I know because I had the original of
4 the Official Gazette of the Serbian People in which this was published in
5 my hands.
6 Q. Okay. Now, on this particular document do you see -- is there any
7 notation that this is part of the Official Gazette of the Serbian Peoples
8 in BiH, or BH?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would you please tell us what -- the date of this decree.
11 A. Friday, 31 July 1992.
12 Q. Would you please tell us whether this decree that was published -
13 and presumably in effect as of 31 July 1992 - whether it was in effect at
14 the time when you were engaged in these activities, that would be sometime
15 after Dayton, which is 1995.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. And what does this decree do, sir, just very briefly?
18 We don't need a whole legal explanation. Just a comment.
19 A. It lists the criteria under which houses and office space may be
20 allocated for temporary use to certain individuals. I'm talking about the
21 temporary use of such buildings, and the individuals have to meet certain
23 Q. All right.
24 A. Also, this document prescribes the way of returning such assets to
25 the owners or the state body that owns such property.
1 Q. All right. Now, if we look at Article 9 in particular.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Does Article 9 provide us any guidance as to the ownership or the
4 rights of the rightful owner?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us, what does Article 9, at least in
7 part, tell us?
8 A. Article 9, paragraph 6, reads: "The temporarily allocated housing
9 shall be turned over by the family or person should the owner or tenant
10 return and should there be no space to accommodate the temporary users of
11 such space in view of the size of such accommodation."
12 Q. Thank you. Let me just ask you a hypothetical. If a Muslim
13 family were to abandon its apartment, its rightfully owned apartment, and
14 they wished to, under this decree that was passed on 31 July 1992 that was
15 still in effect after Dayton, under this decree, would that Muslim family
16 be entitled to return to and re-occupy its rightfully owned apartment?
17 A. Absolutely.
18 Q. Okay. That's it for that document.
19 Now, I just have one last document. Very quickly, prior to -- did
20 you know Colonel Blagojevic before he arrived to be -- to take up the post
21 as commander of the Bratunac Brigade?
22 A. We did not know each other that well, but I knew that he was
23 Vidoje Blagojevic, brother of my schoolmate, that he was a native of that
24 same place. I knew his mother; I knew who she was. I don't know whether
25 he knew me personally, whether he knew who I was, because we had not lived
1 in the same place for quite a long time.
2 Q. All right. Now, before Colonel Blagojevic, did you have -- who
3 was the commander?
4 A. Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel Slavko Ognjenovic.
5 Q. Now, did you get to know him during the period of time when he was
6 the commander of the Bratunac Brigade?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, do you have a basic opinion as to his character?
9 A. Are you referring to Mr. Ognjenovic?
10 Q. That's who we're talking about, right?
11 A. With apologies to the Trial Chamber, I have to choose my words
12 very carefully when I say that he was not of a good character. And he
13 still is the same; he is a very bad man.
14 Q. During that period of time, were you ever informed of any policy
15 that he had put in place to basically make the life of the Muslim
16 population in Srebrenica so miserable so that they would leave en masse?
17 Are you aware of any such policies?
18 A. No.
19 Q. All right. Now, did you at any point in time participate in a
20 commission organised to review the apartment that he had occupied while he
21 was the commander?
22 A. Yes. I believe that I was the president of that commission.
23 Q. And who ordered the establishment of that commission?
24 A. I believe that it was Commander Blagojevic who ordered that.
25 Q. Would you please tell us, what were the reasons for organising
1 that commission?
2 A. It was very simple. That apartment had previously been used by
3 Mr. Ognjenovic, the previous commander.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. The apartment was fully furnished and the furniture belonged to
6 the brigade rather than to the commander. When he was relieved of his
7 duties, Commander Ognjenovic took most of the valuables from the
8 apartment. He didn't actually take them; he attempted to take into his
9 possession most of the valuables. When I say that, I mean he wanted to
10 steal most of the valuable furniture. Why should I spare him? I don't
12 Q. Okay. And -- all right. So on top of being a bad person, he was
13 a thief as well, it would appear, in your opinion?
14 A. He tried. He failed. We wouldn't let him succeed.
15 Q. All right. Let me show you what has been marked as D172 for
16 identification. Just very briefly, do you recognise this document, sir?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what is this document?
19 A. This document is the order for the establishment of a commission
20 which would be tasked with making a list of the furniture in the apartment
21 and their return to the apartment. This commission was tasked with making
22 a record of all that, the apartment was to be sealed, and the key was to
23 be given to the body for security affairs. And there was a deadline by
24 which all this had to be done, and the deadline was the 5th of June, 1995.
25 Q. All right. Just one last question: You told us about the
1 character of the previous commander, Ognjenovic. Do you have an opinion
2 as to the character of Colonel Blagojevic when he was the commander of the
3 Bratunac Brigade?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Would you please share that with us.
6 A. In my opinion, as a man, as a human being, he was good and decent
7 and conscientious. As an officer, he was a -- an honourable officer who
8 took, as it were, parental care of all the soldiers, in contrast to the
9 previous commander.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir. I have no further questions and
11 I want to thank you for answering all my questions. Mr. Stojanovic, who
12 represents Mr. Jokic, may have some questions. The Prosecution, I'm sure,
13 will have some, and perhaps even the Judges. If you could answer their
14 questions as truthfully and honestly as you have answered mine, I would
15 most appreciate it. Thank you, sir.
16 JUDGE LIU: It's time for a break.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you also.
18 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 12.30.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to
22 this witness?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
24 Good afternoon, Mr. Celanovic.
25 Your Honours, as we have no contiguous points with the account of
1 this particular witness, we have no particular questions for this witness
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
4 Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Shin.
5 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President, thank you.
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Shin:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Celanovic.
8 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor.
9 Q. I would like to turn to these handwritten notes that you made from
10 your questioning of Resid Sinanovic and the other men. And perhaps if we
11 could turn first to the one that's been marked P476. These are your notes
12 regarding your questioning of Mr. Resid Sinanovic.
13 Now, you've taken a look at this already this morning. I'd like
14 to just draw your attention directly to a few specific areas. Just a few
15 lines down from the top you see where it says: "The army gathered in
16 Kutlici. All imaginable units and able-bodied locals, about 2.000 armed
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And a little bit further down you see a reference to some
21 commanders who have joined them in Slatina. And there's a reference to
22 "Blagojevic with about 100 policemen." Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And a little bit further down, it says: "The column set out for
25 Slatina," and just after that, "Zulfo managed to get out towards Tuzla
1 with a small number of soldiers."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then a couple of the references that were brought to your
4 attention earlier this morning: Near the bottom, a reference to "1.000 to
5 1.500 armed men and about 6.000 to 7.000 others remaining in the spot
6 where the shells landed."
7 Now, my question for you is quite simple: This is not information
8 that is going to help you assess whether Resid Sinanovic is a war criminal
9 or not. In fact, you believe that he wasn't. Is that -- that's correct,
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If I could turn now to just a couple of your other notes.
13 Prosecution Exhibit 477. You see that in front of you now. Under number
14 2, the person who was apparently questioned was Munib Dedic. The last
15 point under that, it says something to the effect: "Semso crossed with
16 the group," and then a little later, "with Zulfo to Cerska."
17 Do you recall who Zulfo was in this context?
18 A. Zulfo is the right name. That is Zulfo Tursunovic, the commander
19 of the army units from Suceska, in Srebrenica, who was listed as a person
20 alleged to have committed war crimes in the village of Podrano and the
21 surrounding villages in 1993, or perhaps the end of 1992, when this
22 village was burnt down and many civilians killed.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Celanovic. My question for you is, again, quite
24 simple. Now, this information about Semso crossing with the group, or
25 about Zulfo going to Cerska, that has nothing to do with determining
1 whether Munib Dedic is a war criminal or not, does it?
2 A. It does have something to do with it. Do you want me to explain?
3 Q. Well, you can explain very briefly.
4 A. Munib Dedic was first identified as a person who was not a
5 suspect, was not on a known list, at least not the lists which I was
6 using. The next question was: In keeping with Mr. Beara's instruction,
7 for him to tell me if he possibly knew where were the commanders of the
8 units of Naser. Naser is the chief commander. And he told me of one of
9 these names --
10 Q. But my question for you is whether this had anything to do with
11 determining whether Munib Dedic was a war criminal. And I think you've
12 already answered that. You said he was not on any lists. That's correct,
13 isn't it?
14 A. This particular content has nothing to do with our establishing
15 whether Munib Dedic was a war criminal in itself, but what he told me
16 about the others is linked to it.
17 Q. Exactly. And I think what you're saying is that this is in line
18 with Mr. Beara's instructions to know where these other commanders of
19 units of Naser -- where they were. And thank you for that explanation.
20 Now I would like to turn to another one of these notes that you
21 took. And this is Prosecution Exhibit --
22 A. I apologise.
23 Q. -- 478. Yes, Mr. Celanovic.
24 A. I apologise.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I am addressing the Court for
1 leave to -- if you grant it to me, I should like to rectify something that
2 the Prosecutor has said.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Beara
5 did not task me with finding about the whereabouts of Naser's units, but
6 the whereabouts -- not even the whereabouts, but if possibly some of these
7 people were brought before me, I asked just in case, because it was not a
8 question of finding out the whereabouts of the units. As regards the
9 whereabouts of the units, this was something I found out from the
10 spontaneous accounts of the people whom I talked to, those who were
11 brought before me. So I just noted down what they said to me, I did not
12 ask them any specific questions to that effect, except perhaps asking
13 whether they maybe knew whether Naser's units were. There was no specific
14 instruction to that effect to me on the part of Mr. Beara. I apologise,
15 perhaps I misunderstood the comment of the Prosecutor.
16 MR. SHIN:
17 Q. Mr. Celanovic, thank you for your explanation.
18 MR. SHIN: If I may, Mr. President.
19 Q. But just -- now it's not on the screen anymore, but just a minute
20 ago you said you asked: Where were the commanders of units of Naser. And
21 that is a direct quote. That's what you just said a minute ago. So with
22 your explanation I'm going to continue now to this next document.
23 And in connection with what you've just said, if we look at
24 Prosecution Exhibit 478. And this has to do with notes of Mr. Hasib
1 And just to note, Mr. Celanovic, you are, of course, permitted to
2 explain, but we hope that you would focus on the specific question that's
3 before us.
4 Now, on this document you see somewhere near the bottom the
5 phrase: "A number of people wished to break through to the Drina to
6 surrender to Serbia."
7 Do you see that?
8 A. No. No, I don't. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong document.
9 Q. Does your document have the number at the top 0 -- I'm sorry at
10 the bottom, 00678845?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel is kindly requested to slow down. Thank
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, let me just read it for a
15 MR. SHIN:
16 Q. Yes, please go ahead.
17 MR. SHIN: And for the interpreters, I will slow down.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, I've read it.
19 MR. SHIN:
20 Q. So do you see now where it says: "A number of people wish to
21 break through to the Drina to surrender to Serbia"?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Now, this, of course, is a piece of information that doesn't name
24 any commanders or name any potential war criminals or anything. It's
25 simply a piece of information about a movement of a number of people,
1 isn't it? It's a simple question, Mr. Celanovic.
2 A. No, that's not true. Can I explain?
3 Q. Please.
4 A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you have extracted one sentence from its
5 context. It says here that a member of the soldier from the -- a member
6 from the army from December 1993 was a member of the unit of Mrki Mandzo
7 and the nicknames of Mandzic. And the Mandzics were on my list, so it was
8 sufficient for me that he mentioned this. So you could not have known
9 this, what the entire context of this whole thing was, but he did mention
10 one of those persons as having been a member of the paramilitary company,
11 a member of his units. So this second sentence cannot be commented
12 without that being brought in mind.
13 Q. Yes. And thank you for the explanation regarding that second
14 sentence about Mrki Mandzo. My question, of course, was about that last
15 one -- about that last comment, and that is the reference to the number of
16 people going towards the Drina to surrender to Serbia.
17 Now, simply that question about the number of people going to the
18 Drina to surrender to Serbia, that doesn't have anything to do with any
19 specific commander. It doesn't name a commander, does it?
20 A. Yes, it is just a spontaneous account of the person who was making
21 -- giving the statement. I never asked him the question: Are there any
22 people who want to cross over to Serbia? He himself of his own accord
23 told me what he knew about the situation in the field, that there was some
24 people wanting to surrender along a stretch of 50 kilometres. And frankly
25 speaking, the people were in fear. And I could see that half of these
1 statements were not true as regards the units, the strength of the units,
2 because people were in fear, so they told me these things in order to
3 avoid coming to any harm. And they couldn't have come to any harm, as far
4 as I was concerned, not from my part. So these were the persons that I
5 had identified and found out to have -- to be clean. These were the
6 circumstances under which this was done.
7 Q. Mr. Celanovic --
8 JUDGE LIU: Well -- sorry, Mr. Shin. I think really you have to
9 slow down a little bit, because the interpreters and the court reporter
10 are really having a difficult time to follow you. There's no point.
11 MR. SHIN: Okay. My apologies, Mr. President. I will certainly
12 go more slowly.
13 And my apologies too to the interpreters and the reporter as well
14 about speaking too quickly.
15 Q. Mr. Celanovic, are you aware that the movement of armed Muslim men
16 and -- armed or unarmed Muslim men from the Srebrenica enclave was the
17 subject of intelligence reports and other reports from the brigade, the
18 Bratunac Brigade, and the Drina Corps level at about the time of the 12th
19 and the 13th of July? Are you aware of that?
20 A. I know that both civilians and the troops moved through the
21 territory of the Srebrenica enclave. Those who had not surrendered, that
22 is. Now, whether the intelligence organs sent any reports and to whom, I
23 don't know that; nobody had the obligation to inform me about that, as the
24 lowest in rank, and I really had no idea.
25 Q. So when you were speaking to these people, you didn't have any
1 interest in where the enemy was? Is that what you're telling us?
2 A. Not in that sense. Of course I wanted to know where the enemy
3 was. But my instructions were to do a different job, and I abided by
4 those instructions, which was just to establish the identity of those
5 persons and whether possibly they were suspicious.
6 Q. Okay. Well, you've told us a couple things about what your
7 instructions were. But maybe just to move on, your explanation -- one of
8 your explanations was that this information about movements of groups of
9 people, armed or unarmed, were spontaneous statements by these people.
10 Did I understand that correctly?
11 A. Yes, you did.
12 Q. So what you're telling us all this information comes from, not
13 because you asked any questions, you who have experience in asking this
14 kind of questioning and gathering this kind of information, not because
15 you asked those questions but because these were spontaneous statements
16 from these people?
17 A. I'm sorry. Will the Court please draw the attention of the
18 interpreter to the fact that I can't manage to follow. He is speaking --
19 she is speaking too fast.
20 As far as I managed to understand the question, their statements
21 were a result of the question which I asked them, which was: Do you know
22 where the commanders of Naser's units are? Now, speaking about the --
23 their knowledge as to -- answering that particular question, whether they
24 knew or not, they would give me a spontaneous account of things, which
25 would then be reflected in my note. And the entire exchange took some 2
1 to 3 minutes. I hope this time I managed to be clear.
2 Q. Okay. If I could -- and I'll take this slow. If I could just
3 check if I understand that. Did you or did you not ask them where the
4 commanders of Naser's units were?
5 A. I asked them where the commanders of Naser's units were. May I
6 continue? After I identified -- established the identity of the persons
7 that I was addressing, that those were indeed the persons that I was to
8 question, I would ask them what they thought -- only after having
9 established that I asked them what they thought about the situation in the
10 field and whether they knew where Naser's units were. But only after I
11 would establish that they -- the persons in question were clean and were
12 not alleged to have done anything, only after that was established, in
13 fact, I would proceed to ask them whether they knew where these units
14 were. And I would ask them nothing more. And then after they gave me
15 their answer, I would tell them: Okay. You're free to go. I have
16 nothing more to ask you. And this was my attitude toward all of them.
17 And Mr. Sinanovic was a slight exception, because I told you he was
18 already on the list as a person alleged to have done something. But as I
19 also already explained, it was clear that that was not the case, that he
20 was being treated as such on the basis of a couple of statements of some
21 old lady who no longer had her senses about her.
22 I apologise for talking too much and trying to clarify this
23 procedure, my actions, what it was that I asked of these people to tell
24 me, and that is why I am a bit verbose.
25 Q. Okay. So after you established their identity, then you asked
1 them where the units were. Is that correct?
2 A. Sorry. I have to rectify -- correct you again. I didn't ask them
3 where the units were but where the commanders of the unit were. Because
4 they could have -- the units were not the suspicious thing, but the people
5 on the list, the commanders of the units, and the question always referred
6 to them, where were the commanders of Naser's units, and not where the
7 units were. And then they would start to spontaneously respond to my
8 question the way they saw it. I could not be as precise as perhaps as
9 today in this court. It was just an ordinary question, and I just asked
10 them to tell me what they knew without an interruption, without any
11 additional questions. And I know -- I knew, believe me, I knew that those
12 people were in fear of what lays in store for them. And I knew that
13 perhaps half of the things which they were saying were not true, but just
14 were statements made in fear so that I did not set a great store by either
15 the figures or the facts which they gave me to, precisely only to that.
16 Of course they had no reason to fear me. I was very correct in
17 treating them, but they came there already afraid, which was only natural,
18 given the circumstances, I believe.
19 Q. Mr. Celanovic, apart from on this day when you questioned Resid
20 Sinanovic and these other men, apart from these notes that we've looked
21 at, were there other people who were brought before you in front of the
22 Bratunac Brigade to be questioned by you?
23 A. I do not remember that anybody else was brought. I remember these
24 people because of Resid and this entire group because of the circumstances
25 which require of me to try and remember everything that had transpired
1 particularly in that connection.
2 Q. Now, you knew that there were people being held in the Vuk
3 Karadzic school. Correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In fact, you knew that there were -- there were hundreds being
6 held there. Correct?
7 A. I assumed that there were hundreds.
8 Q. Well, you told -- you told the police in the Republika Srpska in
9 August of 2003 in your statement that there were hundreds in that school
10 at that time. Do you recall that? We can refer to that, if that would
11 help you.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you recall that, then?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, just for one point of clarification, there's been a -- been
16 reference to a reception centre for these men who were being detained and
17 also a school. And we know about the Vuk Karadzic school. We're talking
18 now about the building, all those terms are used to identify the building
19 in July 1995 that was known as the Vuk Karadzic school. That's correct,
20 isn't it?
21 A. Yes. The reception centre, the school, it's all the same. To my
22 mind the school was the reception centre for the people who had
23 surrendered, who were brought in. There was no other facility, or at
24 least I was not aware of any such facility.
25 Q. Okay. Now, are you aware that in May of 1992 that school was also
1 used as a place for detention of Muslims from Bratunac?
2 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
3 Q. And were you aware that a number of people, a number of Muslims,
4 were killed at that time at that school?
5 A. I heard that.
6 Q. Do you think -- did it occur to you when these men came to be
7 questioned by you and when they knew they were going to that school, do
8 you think that might have caused them any fear or concern, knowing the
9 history of that place in 1992?
10 A. I don't know how they felt, whether they were afraid or not. But
11 I knew that while they were by me they did not have anything to fear
12 because I treated them correctly. I don't know whether they were afraid
13 of anything that might happen after they left me.
14 Q. Now, these hundreds of men in the Vuk Karadzic school, did you go
15 and question any of them to determine whether any of them were war
17 A. No. This would not have made any sense. It would have been
18 pointless. May I explain?
19 Q. Certainly.
20 A. The instruction or the order to me was to interrogate just those
21 people that were brought to the police building, if they were indeed
22 brought in. This group consisting of six or seven people, whose notes I
23 have in front of me, was brought not for me to interrogate them, but this
24 group of soldiers stopped by the building to ask where the school was.
25 Then I introduced myself and I explained what my role was to these
1 soldiers. And then when I realised what was going on, it would have been
2 pointless for me to try and establish the identity of the people who were
3 brought to me by pure chance. And at the same time hundreds and thousands
4 of people were brought to a different place and nobody interrogated them.
5 This would have been a very random way of doing things, so I did not go
6 and interrogate anybody because it would have been pointless. Such a
7 procedure on my part would have been absurd and unnecessary. It never
8 occurred to me to engage in an activity like that.
9 Hundreds and thousands of people passed through with any --
10 without any control. Why would I choose just a few to establish their
11 identity and interrogate them whilst all the others passed through
13 Q. Well, Mr. Celanovic, you've mentioned now hundreds and thousands
14 of people being brought to other -- to a different place or different
15 places and being detained. Did it occur to you that perhaps you could
16 have gotten a list of these people, their names?
17 A. I mentioned hundreds or maybe thousands. This is my assumption.
18 Later on I learned that several thousands of Muslims were killed. I said
19 hundreds or thousands. But what happened in Bratunac, in the school, I
20 could see people on the windows from the street. I could see empty
21 vehicles in front of the school from which people were taken to the
22 school. And as just a normal individual, I could make an assessment as to
23 how many people could fit in the school, how many vehicles were in the
24 streets. So I could tell, based on that, that there were several hundreds
25 at the moment when I was observing the situation. When I said "hundreds
1 or thousands," I only learned later on -- everybody knows today how many
2 went missing. That's why I said hundreds or thousands.
3 Secondly, how can a person in the course of such a day identify so
4 many people and make a sensible list out of that? It would have been
5 physically impossible. And I did not have any such instruction as to
6 maybe leave my office or the premises and go and interview all these
7 Muslims in order to make some sort of a list.
8 I hope I've made myself clear with that.
9 Q. So, Mr. Celanovic, were you aware of any list of people being
10 detained anywhere?
11 A. Again, can you please slow down. Can you please repeat the
12 question. I didn't understand the question, and please slow down.
13 Q. Okay. I will speak very slowly. The question was actually quite
14 brief. Do you know whether there was any list of any of these Muslim
15 detainees at that time? Around the 13th of July, did such a list exist,
16 to your knowledge?
17 A. No. I have no knowledge of any such list or lists.
18 Q. Now, apart from your questioning of Mr. Resid Sinanovic, your
19 friend, and these other men, were you aware of any other interviews being
20 conducted to determine whether any of these detainees were war criminals?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So you -- my next question you may have indirectly answered
23 previously, but just so we're clear: At some point you decided that it
24 wasn't worthwhile for you to try to determine whether any particular
25 Muslim detainee was a war criminal or not. Right?
1 A. Right.
2 Q. And I think you have explained - please correct me if I'm wrong -
3 one of the reasons was because you knew -- or to the best of your
4 knowledge, nobody was checking -- nobody was doing anything similar,
5 nobody was checking any of these detainees to see if they were war
7 A. I didn't say that I knew that nobody was checking. I didn't know
8 if anybody was checking. I didn't know that. I didn't know for a fact
9 that nobody was checking. I said I didn't know if it was checked. Now,
10 the decision that I made, at one point after these people left for the
11 school, I made a break, I went to my apartment to change my clothes
12 because it was very hot. On my way back in that street I was close to the
13 baker's, and I saw what I saw. And after that I decided it was pointless,
14 even if somebody was brought to me to continue interrogating them, because
15 I realised that there were too many people for all of them to be
16 identified. I was not aware of anybody who would have had a similar order
17 or instruction. And that's when I decided that this was beside the point,
18 that it didn't make any sense for me to continue doing that, even if
19 people were brought in. And luckily enough, nobody was brought to me on
20 that day in that sense.
21 Q. So, as you just explained to us, there were too many people even
22 to identify them?
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. It's been -- first of all, it's been
24 asked and answered. And now he's trying to fit the, you know, the square
25 peg into the round hole so he can make his closing argument. He's not
1 being fair with the gentleman. But in any event, I stick to my previous
2 remark: It's been asked and it's been answered.
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Shin, I think you've made your point
5 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE LIU: Shall we move on?
7 MR. SHIN: Very well. I will move on.
8 Q. Did you tell Mr. Beara that you thought it didn't make any sense,
9 that it was absurd to try to interview people as he had told you to
10 regarding the identity of war criminals?
11 A. No. He never asked me anything about that. He just asked me a
12 general question: Did you do anything today? I told him: Yes, there
13 were a few people. And then he said: Okay, kiddo, let's move on. That's
14 the way he used to address me. He didn't expect any such information from
16 Q. Okay. I'd like to move on to -- I'm sorry. Thank you for that
17 answer. I'd like to just move on to the next point now. When these
18 people were brought to you, both -- I'm sorry, these five or six people
19 that you questioned, when they were brought to you in front of your
20 office, one of the soldiers who brought them, maybe one or more of them,
21 asked the military police where the school was. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes. They asked everybody. There were a few soldiers who did not
23 belong to the military police, one or two of them, and there were maybe
24 three military policemen there.
25 Q. And these few soldiers they asked who were not part of the
1 military police, they were with the Bratunac Brigade, were they not?
2 A. Obviously not.
3 Q. Okay. Maybe we misunderstood each other, but you're talking about
4 the people who are asking where the school was, correct, when you say that
5 they're obviously not from the Bratunac Brigade.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So my question is just this: Someone from the military police
8 then explained to them where the school was. Correct?
9 A. Somebody explained to them where the school was. I can't remember
10 who it was who said to those soldiers that the school was down the road.
11 Somebody did say that, I don't remember who that was, but there's
12 something I told them. And if you want me to, I can tell you what I told
14 Q. If you could briefly, please go ahead, Mr. Celanovic.
15 A. Very briefly. I said to these lads what my task was, what my role
16 was. They just happened to be there, and I told them that I should ask
17 for these people's IDs, and they agreed to that. I told them that in my
18 office at that time there was another person, Resid Sinanovic namely, and
19 I asked them that after my conversation with these people that they had
20 brought in, that they should leave some time for my colleague who was in
21 the office and to escort him to the school as well. And they said okay,
22 and that's exactly what happened later on.
23 Q. My question was just about who had given them the directions.
24 Now, do you remember telling the Republika Srpska police in your August of
25 2003 interview that it was one of the military police who explained where
1 the school was?
2 A. I believe that this was somebody from the military police, but I
3 don't know his name. I was under the impression that you wanted me to
4 tell you the name, and I don't remember the name. There were two or three
5 military policemen, and there was no reason for me to remember any of
6 their names. We were talking at cross-purposes. I thought you were
7 asking me about the name of the person who told them where the school was.
8 Well, the -- all three of them were talking at the same time. They were
9 pointing towards the school with their hands, and it was very difficult
10 for me to be sure of who it was that provided these soldiers with the
12 Q. Since we perhaps misunderstood each other, let me be very clear:
13 It was someone from the military police -- the Bratunac Brigade military
14 police - not the name, but someone from the military police - who told
15 these men where the school was. Is that correct? Not the name now --
16 A. I'm not absolutely sure. Somebody said that, and I believe that
17 he was a member of the military police of the Bratunac Brigade. Despite
18 all my wishes, I cannot be sure of that, and I can't tell you with
19 certainty something that I'm not sure of.
20 Q. Now, did you see -- as they left, did you see that these men
21 brought these five or six detainees to the school, or was that something
22 you couldn't see from where you were?
23 A. I could see that the vehicle carrying these people went towards
24 the main road, the Gavrilo Princip road, as it is known today, and that it
25 started driving to the right looking from where I was observing. I was
1 standing on the stairway with my back turned towards the military police
2 building. This right-hand side road leads towards the bus station and on
3 towards the elementary school. My further view was obstructed by the
4 houses, by the trees.
5 Q. These soldiers came back to where your office was, or right in
6 front of your office, about five or ten minutes later but without their
7 detainees. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes. And not all the soldiers came back. Two or three returned,
9 and one of them told me that they are here to assist the military police.
10 And I didn't comment upon that. They just told me that they were here to
11 provide assistance to the military police, if that would be necessary.
12 Q. Do you recall if they said something else about what the nature of
13 that assistance would be or was?
14 A. Nothing.
15 Q. Do you recall telling the police of the Republika Srpska in August
16 of 2003 what that -- what the nature of that assistance was?
17 A. It may have been my assumption. Since they had this vehicle, I
18 assumed that they would provide assistance with the transportation. I
19 don't know what other assistance could they have provided. They had a
20 vehicle, and that's what -- the way I understood their sentence or two
21 sentences that they said to me.
22 Q. Mr. Celanovic, when you gave the statement to the RS police in
23 August of 2003, they cautioned you to tell the truth, correct, the police?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. They cautioned you not to leave out any information, correct? And
1 as a lawyer you may be familiar with these cautions in your system.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. They cautioned you that there could be a criminal penalty for any
4 false testimony, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. They told you that this was in connection with an investigation
7 into Srebrenica in 1995, and that's a serious investigation. Isn't that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... circumstances as a lawyer, or
11 perhaps as anyone, you would want to be as accurate and complete as
12 possible, wouldn't you?
13 A. Yes. As accurate as possible.
14 Q. So I'm going to read to you -- and if you would like to see it,
15 just please let me know, I'm happy to put that in front of you as well --
16 what -- I'm sorry. Just one minute, please, with your indulgence.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: If the gentleman could be provided with a copy of
18 his statement, I think that would be correct.
19 MR. SHIN: I'm happy to do that. This is a document marked
20 Prosecution Exhibit 859/A for the English version and B for the Serbian
22 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Shin, please bear in mind that you are being
23 interpreted into two languages and the interpreters do not have a copy of
24 what you are reading.
25 MR. SHIN: My apologies to the interpreters not for getting this
1 to them earlier. It is a very brief sentence and I will read very slowly.
2 Q. Mr. Celanovic, I would like to direct you to the very last page of
3 that statement. First of all, do you recognise this as the record of the
4 statement that you gave in August 2003?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you see your name and signature at the bottom. Is that your
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, the sentence I would like to direct you to --
10 MR. SHIN: Sorry, just one minute, with your indulgence, Your
11 Honours. I'm sorry, it's -- I had the wrong page there.
12 Q. If you could turn to what is page -- the second page in which your
13 statement is written, and that constitutes the fourth page from the very
14 beginning. Now, two-thirds of the way down this page and just above that
15 paragraph break where there is a blank space, and in the Serbian version
16 you'll see that the sentence I'm referring to begins [B/C/S spoken].
17 And I'll read in the English: "The soldiers took the group and
18 put them in the school. In about five or ten minutes" -- sorry. I'll go
19 slowly. "In about five or ten minutes they came back to the military
20 police building and said that they had been ordered to assist the military
21 police of the Bratunac Brigade for similar cases since they now knew where
22 the reception centre was and they had a vehicle for that purpose."
23 Do you see that sentence -- I'm sorry, those two sentences?
24 A. All right.
25 Q. So when you gave that statement, trying to be as accurate and
1 complete as possible, that's what you told the RS police what these
2 soldiers with the truck had told you. Is that correct?
3 A. Probably.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Celanovic, just moving on a little, you had said earlier
5 that I believe - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that you did not
6 recognise anyone from the Bratunac Brigade in front of the Vuk Karadzic
7 school. Is that right, or have I gotten that wrong?
8 A. I didn't recognise anybody from the Bratunac Brigade in front of
9 the Vuk Karadzic school. Nobody whose name I would know, but judging by
10 the uniforms that I saw at a distance of 50 to 60 metres, I believed that
11 they belonged to the Bratunac Brigade. I recognised the cheap, thin,
12 camouflage uniforms, unlike the uniforms that I saw on the lads that were
13 standing guard in front of the school itself. It was different. It was
14 of the kind that only American troops have. It was dusk, and it was very
15 difficult for me to say that I saw certain individuals whom I knew, but I
16 believed that they were members of the Bratunac Brigade, judging by
17 nothing else but their uniforms that I saw at a distance. That is what I
18 saw in the evening.
19 Q. And so you believe -- just to be clear, you believe that the
20 persons that you saw in front of the school were members of the Bratunac
21 Brigade. Is that what you said?
22 A. Some of the persons, not in front of the school but in this short
23 street and at the end of the street which leads towards the school. So
24 it's a little bit further on, next to the municipality building which
25 housed the archives. I don't know whether you have referred to this
1 particular building at all so far, but I'm trying to be precise in
2 explaining this. So to the right-hand side observed in the direction of
3 the school, this is where I could see them. I wasn't paying too much
4 attention really. Had I known that I would be taking the stand here
5 today, I would have made it my business to indeed remember.
6 Q. And when you referred to that short street where you saw some
7 members of the Bratunac Brigade, that's the street along which the buses
8 and trucks were parked. Is that correct?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Mr. Celanovic, just to make it simple, have you heard -- maybe you
11 didn't see at that time, but did you hear later that there were Bratunac
12 Brigade military police guarding the Vuk Karadzic school on that day -- on
13 that evening?
14 A. I heard that some of them performed that duty as well. As to how
15 many there were, when this was, I don't know this. I only heard later
16 that some of them had secured the building. I don't know which of these
17 lads they were. This is something that I heard only later in informal
19 Q. Do you recall who told you that, even informally?
20 A. No. No. These were just leisurely talks which were a long time
21 after these events had happened.
22 Q. Did you hear anything, either that evening or the next morning,
23 about bodies, 50 bodies, of Muslims being found at that Vuk Karadzic
24 school or in one of the buildings right behind it?
25 A. I didn't hear anything about that. I hear it for the first time,
1 that bodies were found either in the school or around the school.
2 Q. So you never heard that there were people killed at that school
3 either on the 12th or the 13th or the 14th?
4 A. Never.
5 Q. Now, are you aware -- are you aware that there were Bratunac
6 Brigade -- I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that.
7 Mr. Celanovic, you were aware that the Bratunac Brigade military
8 police escorted these buses and trucks to Zvornik, these buses and trucks
9 that were full of men in the streets of Bratunac that night. Isn't that
11 A. I heard that they escorted them from my conversations with
12 military policemen, but I didn't see. So I heard from them that they had
13 been also among those who were escorted -- among those who escorted the
14 convoy were also members of the Bratunac military police brigade. And I
15 believe ...
16 Q. And when you say your conversations with military policemen, you
17 mean military policemen from the Bratunac Brigade. Is that correct?
18 A. I don't know in what context this particular question was asked.
19 Can I have a more precise formulation of the question? What particular
20 conversation are we referring to? The informal conversation that I
21 referred to?
22 Q. Actually, I mean the conversation that you just talked about, the
23 conversation with military policemen who told you that there were Bratunac
24 Brigade military policemen who escorted these buses and trucks to Zvornik.
25 Now, you had that conversation with military policemen, you said, and I
1 just wanted to clarify that those are Bratunac Brigade military policemen.
2 You nodded. If you could please say yes or no into the
3 microphone, please.
4 A. Yes. This is all right. Yes, these were military police of the
5 -- military police of the -- Bratunac Brigade military police.
6 Q. Now, I'd like to turn back briefly to a conversation that you
7 described that you had with Colonel Beara, as you say, in which he
8 explained to you why there were buses and trucks in Bratunac that evening.
9 You told us just a few minutes ago that when you were trying to assess how
10 many people there were in the Vuk Karadzic school, you saw the empty
11 vehicles in front of the Vuk Karadzic school, the vehicles which you
12 believed these men were -- had been brought on. Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes. There were several vehicles that I saw, but there were also
14 others that I didn't see. We are not talking about the same street here,
15 are we? Could you please be more precise. I don't mind drawing you a
16 sketch to show you what street we are talking about. There was a street
17 full of buses and other vehicles with people on them. And there is a
18 small street leading towards the municipality on the right. There is one
19 to the left, towards the stadium and towards Suha settlement. There are
20 two streets. There were a few empty vehicles in the street on the left
21 which leads by the stadium. And I saw two or three vehicles that could be
22 seen from where I was standing. Since the street is sloping, there may
23 have been more. And before that, I saw a longer street full of vehicles.
24 And from the market, I also could see that around the stadium and in the
25 stadium there were vehicles full of people; that's what I'm talking about.
1 I'm trying to be as precise as possible here, as much as I can, as much as
2 my memory serves me.
3 Q. And we do understand that, Mr. Celanovic. If I could make the
4 question very simple, and I think you have explained that in your answer
5 just now; you did see some empty vehicles in the street. And let's set
6 aside the question now of where exactly they were.
7 A. Was that a question?
8 Q. Yes, it was.
9 A. I've just explained where they were. In that street on the left,
10 at the crossroads. Why don't you give me a piece of paper. I'd like to
11 draw it to you. I can't explain. As I'm facing the school, there is a
12 street which leads to the gate of the school. And on the left from that
13 place there is a street which leads by the stadium, and on the right there
14 is a short street leading towards the municipality building. In the
15 street on the left I saw two, three, four -- I can't be more precise than
16 that, I didn't count the vehicles. That's how many vehicles I saw. But
17 since the street is sloping, I can assume that there were more streets [as
18 interpreted] towards the bottom of the road. I was standing there for a
19 minute and then I returned.
20 But there is another fact, and the fact is that I saw many more
21 vehicles in a different place and that I could see people on the windows
22 of the school. That is another fact. And that's where I saw a lot of
23 vehicles that I couldn't count.
24 But having seen all of these vehicles and knowing how many
25 classrooms there are, if you can do your maths you can calculate how many
1 people fit in the school. I know exactly how big the schoolrooms are, and
2 any layman by doing their maths could tell you how many people there were
3 in the school. At the moment when I was observing the situation, I
4 believe there were several hundreds of people in the school plus the
5 people in the vehicles that I've just mentioned. I really don't see how I
6 can explain it in any different way. I can't give you the precise number
7 either. The fact is that I've given you the essence of what I saw. I
8 really don't know what other details or precisions you want from me. If
9 you can be more precise in your questions, I will answer. Your questions
10 start to tire me, really. I apologise.
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I think the question put to you is very
12 simple. That is: Did you see some empty vehicles in the street? It's a
13 very, very simple question.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I explained in very
15 simple words that I saw three or four empty vehicles.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
17 You may proceed.
18 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Celanovic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Trial Chamber.
21 MR. SHIN:
22 Q. Now, do you recall your conversation with Mr. Beara where he told
23 you why it was that these buses and trucks with men on them could not
24 leave, or why they were staying in Bratunac? Do you remember that? Just,
25 please, yes or no on that question.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And he explained to you that they were waiting because there was a
3 re-organisation of transportation because there were too many people on
4 some or more than some of the buses and trucks. Do you remember that?
5 Just, please, yes or no unless I've made something significantly wrong
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, did that explanation make sense to you, in light of the empty
9 buses that you saw?
10 A. Absolutely.
11 Q. Mr. Celanovic, there's no reason why some of those buses couldn't
12 have gone to Kladanj, is there? Some or maybe all of them?
13 A. There's no reason why they should not have gone to Kladanj. They
14 could have gone to Kladanj if such a decision had been made.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. SHIN: Mr. President, I'm not sure, but this may be a good
17 place to break.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, could I ask, how long are you going to do your
19 cross-examination for tomorrow?
20 MR. SHIN: I would hope for no more than 20 minutes or so, I would
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you.
23 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm afraid that we have to break now, and we'll
25 continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. The hearing for today is adjourned.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
2 at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
3 the 20th day of May, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.