Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9740

1 Monday, 24 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Anything to raise before we

10 hear the witness?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,

12 Your Honours. I do have a couple of matters of some developments that

13 have just -- we have become aware of. First, we received an e-mail

14 yesterday regarding the debriefing of one witness who has already

15 testified, Witness 130. And in this e-mail, there are some rather

16 interesting information, both -- which I would say is extremely

17 inculpatory in nature, assuming that the information that is being

18 provided by the witness is true, accurate, and complete, which -- and I

19 will reserve my opinion as to that. In any event, it would appear, in

20 light of this new information and in light of the potential appearance of

21 another witness from the United States that it will certainly be necessary

22 for us to ask for a -- for some time to prepare and to research and

23 investigate these matters that are being mentioned in the e-mail with

24 respect to the -- to what Witness 130 has said. We assume and we are

25 hopeful that the Prosecution will, on an expeditious basis, provide us

Page 9741

1 with, not necessarily the transcript, but at least the tape-recorded

2 sessions where this witness is being debriefed and is mentioning all

3 these -- this sort of new information, information which the witness did

4 not provide under oath when he testified. And so, it would appear, at

5 least on face, that Witness 130 committed perjury, at a very minimum,

6 during his direct and cross-examination during the Prosecution's case.

7 So another concern is: We would like to know where is Witness

8 130, in a sense that is he locked up? Because in the e-mail it would

9 appear that he was an enthusiastic killer, one who killed without any

10 remorse. And we saw him -- his demeanor in court as well. And the

11 gentleman was rather cold in his description of the events. But, one, I

12 think that members of the Defence are concerned that a cold-blooded killer

13 like this individual should not be walking around the streets of the

14 Netherlands for our own safety and for the safety of the Dutch people.

15 Because clearly this individual needs to be locked up, assuming what he

16 says is true.

17 Number two, we would like to know from the Prosecution whether any

18 negotiated deals are in the play. And of course, how is it at this stage

19 of the proceedings, this witness, after he's testified on direct and the

20 Prosecution's case in-chief, all of a sudden has decided to come clean.

21 Was it the Prosecution initiating a further follow-up questioning, which

22 is natural in many instances. Or is it that this witness, for whatever

23 reason, perhaps because he has engaged a lawyer, I don't know, now had

24 found sort of a -- as an alcoholic would say a moment of clarity, where he

25 wants to unburden his soul and come clean because he has found a

Page 9742

1 conscience. Those are the informations we would like to know. If the

2 gentleman is not locked up, we certainly would want the individual locked

3 up while at The Hague for that -- for those reasons. So that's number

4 one.

5 Number two, we would like to know from the Prosecution when, if

6 they know, when they can expect this other witness who is mentioned by

7 Witness 130 to be arriving from the United States. It's our understanding

8 that extradition proceedings may have commenced. Certainly the

9 individual, it would appear, is being deported from the United States. I

10 know that that can take some time, though I am sure that the INS,

11 Immigration and Naturalisation Services in the United States are all too

12 pleased to often get rid of unwanted and unwarranted individuals who are

13 there for no particular reason, other than the fact that they have lied to

14 get their way to the United States. So maybe they have some answers on

15 that.

16 Lastly, there is the issue with respect to the disclosure material

17 from the East Bosnian Corps headquarters. We received it this morning.

18 It probably was put over the weekend in the locker, but we looked at it

19 this morning. There doesn't appear to be a large volume. It's for the

20 month of July. In light of the nature of the indictment and the period

21 that the indictment covers, particularly since there seems to be this

22 historical basis upon which the Prosecution is anchoring its joint

23 criminal enterprise motive, criminal responsibility, we would like to know

24 as soon as possible, perhaps Mr. McCloskey is not prepared at this time,

25 but we would like to know how much more material they have, when can we

Page 9743

1 expect it. It's in B/C/S. Luckily it's all typewritten, which helps us a

2 little bit. But I would venture to say that we're going to need, as I

3 said, a -- some time. And I raise it at this point in time because we

4 have witnesses scheduled for this week. For the following week, the

5 witnesses we have yet to notify, as of today, although we have the list,

6 we know who we want, one of them is supposed to be coming by way of a

7 subpoena. We don't know the status of that -- or at least two of them by

8 way of subpoena. But we would like to know, so at least we can perhaps

9 make some arrangements and make an application to the Court when it would

10 be most appropriate to take this break so we can examine this material and

11 also conduct an investigation. And -- so if we could -- I wanted to go on

12 the record. I want to thank the Prosecutor for bringing this to our

13 attention as early as they were able to do so. However, it does cause us

14 a great deal of concern. And I don't want to keep going on with the

15 Defence case knowing, as I do now, that there is this thunderstorm looming

16 ahead - more like a tornado - and is heading in my direction. I don't

17 want it to be on top of me before I react. So that's why I'm bringing it

18 to the Court's attention at this time. Thank you.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 Could I hear from Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, to start with the East Bosnia Corps

22 collection, the material we got was the first CD, and it had these -- the

23 July daily combat reports from the Main Staff to the presidency. There's

24 very small sections on the Drina Corps. I haven't had time to look at all

25 of them, but it doesn't appear to -- that it will be of any major

Page 9744

1 significance. The other material will be picked up and brought to the

2 office and will be analysed. As I have said before, the connection with

3 the East Bosnia Corps and our events are -- there are some connections,

4 but we don't expect to see a whole lot, but you never know what these

5 collections come up with. So as we find anything, as counsel knows, we

6 will make every effort to get it to people as soon as possible. But I

7 don't see that as a significant issue right now.

8 Regarding the e-mail that I sent to all counsel and the additional

9 information provided by Witness 130, counsel has some valid points

10 and -- regarding the interest that I think the Court would have in this

11 material. It would -- it's not up for me to bring up the information in

12 the material, so at this time I will not. Though, the Court I think to

13 judge the matter properly would want to know more than Mr. Karnavas has

14 said. But I think we can talk about that and determine, you know, what

15 the Defence feels like it wants to -- and I may be going back to my common

16 law roots in this kind of material and the trier of fact, we have no

17 problem with the Court seeing this at all. And I just want to make sure

18 that the Defence is the one that is approving of how much the Court sees.

19 Some of the information is very significant and is the kind of

20 information that the Defence should be allowed to look at, digest, and

21 incorporate into their interviews and perhaps investigate. But I can't

22 really say much beyond that without you knowing the facts of -- or the

23 rough facts. And I think I need to speak with both Defence counsel, it

24 affects both their clients, so that we can get a good feel for what they

25 are comfortable with providing to the Court at this time. We will have a

Page 9745

1 taped transcript very soon. And that information will be to the Defence

2 very soon in a more formal form. I sent an e-mail, which is pretty rough,

3 based on my remembrances of a very brief interviews on Wednesday, Friday,

4 and a very long interview on Sunday.

5 So some of the other matters Mr. Karnavas brought up are really

6 not matters for this Court or open Court, the security issues. And the

7 witness in the U.S., that's a sensitive issue; I would prefer to talk

8 about that in private session, since the U.S. interests may be involved.

9 And I can speak briefly to that, if you wish. Again, it's hard to speak

10 much about this until you have a better understanding of what we're

11 talking about. And as this material is being digested by the Prosecution

12 at this stage of the case, I believe we would be in a position to offer

13 some of it as rebuttal, but perhaps the bulk of it would be a motion to

14 re-open our case. And this is something that is not unusual, as you

15 probably recall from the Krstic record, a document indicating that Krstic

16 was appointed commander came in, it might have even been in the

17 Prosecution's rebuttal case, but it was very late. And with these ongoing

18 investigations, this sort of thing happens; it's just part of the world

19 we're in in these large cases. But I'm reluctant to say anything more,

20 unless you want me to, and I want to talk to the Defence to make sure that

21 any facts that are mentioned are something they are comfortable with.

22 Because they have several options, one be that this information not be

23 divulged to the Trial Chamber, another is a continuance, another would be

24 them calling him as a witness. I mean, there are several options and we

25 haven't really had time to talk about it yet. So I would just leave it --

Page 9746

1 well, I will just stop talking at this point to see how we want to go

2 further with it.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. At this moment it's very

4 difficult for this Bench to make any rulings or decisions on this matter.

5 As I remembered that this witness testified some time at the beginning of

6 this year and he's from Zvornik Brigade is more related to Mr. Jokic's

7 defence. But I'm not quite sure about that, because my memory is not long

8 enough. So I hope that if possible the parties could furnish us with more

9 information concerning with this new development. Then we'll study

10 whether -- what's the approach that we should adopt, whether we re-open

11 the Prosecution's case, whether we arrange it in the rebuttal phase, or

12 whether there's some other way out. It's very difficult for us to do

13 anything at this stage.

14 As for the second issue, of course the Prosecution has the

15 obligation to provide any informations they receive to the Defence, but it

16 depends on the relevancy and probative value of those materials. I think

17 same is true that it will be very difficult for us to make any rulings at

18 this stage.

19 As for the time schedule, I believe that we have a very tight

20 schedule. It will be very difficult for us to change that schedule,

21 unless it's absolutely necessary. If there is anything that the parties

22 would like to Bench to do, I hope you could inform us as soon as possible

23 so that we could take it into consideration in due time. But until then,

24 I believe that we have to continue the proceedings because we have the

25 witnesses waiting on the list.

Page 9747

1 Is that all right? Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, obviously, Your Honour, we will do whatever

3 we're instructed to do. We would like all of the East Bosnian Corps

4 material, all of it. We don't simply want to rely on the Prosecution

5 determining what they think is relevant for our case. We believe that we

6 know our case after three years fairly well. And so if they have a lot of

7 documents, we would like to look at them.

8 Secondly, we can provide the Court with more information. I

9 certainly -- recognising that we're not in a common law system and that

10 we're dealing with professional Judges who make decisions every day, I

11 have absolutely full confidence in the Trial Chamber in looking at the

12 material and determining what, if any, is admissible, relevant to this

13 particular case. I think that when the Court sees it, it will rapidly

14 come to the conclusion that it is extremely relevant to the Blagojevic

15 Defence case and that it is of such magnitude that it will require us some

16 time to get to the bottom of it.

17 Since I'm in my case, I don't want to have to wait to deal with

18 this matter on rebuttal because I don't know what they want to do and I

19 don't care what they want to do. I know what I want to do and I want to

20 deal with that in my case. So since I have this material, I want to be

21 able to take the wind out of the sail, as the term is, but as opposed to

22 them getting another shot at re-opening their case. They've had seven

23 years to nine years to get their story straight. They've had this

24 gentleman well in their hands, in their grasp, in their reach. They

25 brought him on, they put him on and now, for whatever reason, he's singing

Page 9748

1 a different tune. How and why and under what circumstances, that's

2 something we need to know. I'm going to be dealing with this in my case

3 in-chief, so we all know right up front. Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may ask the Trial Chamber to

6 move into private session for a short while.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

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10 [Open session]

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14 JUDGE LIU: Could you please make the solemn declaration in

15 accordance with the paper.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I apologise to you for having kept you waiting

23 for a long time, because we have some technical issues to discuss and to

24 deal with. And now are you ready to start?

25 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

Page 9756

1 JUDGE LIU: I didn't hear you, I'm sorry.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.

4 Mr. Karnavas.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

6 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

7 Q. Good morning, sir.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. Could you please tell us your name.

10 A. Mile Janjic.

11 Q. Could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.

12 A. J-a-n-j-i-c.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Janjic, July 1995, were you a member of the

14 Bratunac Brigade?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you please tell us what position you held within the

17 Bratunac Brigade back in July 1995.

18 A. I was a member of the military police platoon.

19 Q. All right. Let's stay with July 1995, and I'm going to give you

20 two days, two dates, as reference points. July 6th, being the day when

21 the events commenced against Srebrenica, July 11th, 1995, the day

22 Srebrenica fell.

23 Sir, could you please tell us prior to July 6, were you aware of

24 any activities that were about to begin against Srebrenica?

25 A. No.

Page 9757

1 Q. Would you please tell us prior to that date if you recall what you

2 were doing.

3 A. I was involved in my regular police work within my everyday

4 activities.

5 Q. Do you know where you were immediately prior to July 6th?

6 A. I was at the police.

7 Q. Okay. Well, were you stationed in Bratunac? Is that where you

8 were working, in Bratunac town, or had you been assigned to any places to

9 guard?

10 A. For the most part, it involved work in Bratunac and going out into

11 the field.

12 Q. All right. Now -- and where would you go out into the field?

13 A. Well, we were engaged in providing security along the

14 Sase/Pribicevac road.

15 Q. All right. What sort of shifts would you have when you were out

16 there doing that kind of fieldwork?

17 A. For the most part, we went in groups. We provided security during

18 the day; in the evening, we would go back and we would be free.

19 Q. All right. Thank you.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I won't be using the ELMO. Is there any way we can

21 lower it? There seems to be some obstruction -- there you go.

22 Q. Sorry for that interruption. Now, on July 6th, 1995, do you

23 recall where you were on that particular day, the day that the events

24 commenced against Srebrenica?

25 A. I don't recall the exact date, but five, six, or seven days before

Page 9758

1 that I was engaged in various periods in this security detail.

2 Q. All right. Did anything unusual happen or were you involved in

3 anything unusual from July 6th to July 11th, 1995, if you recall?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, let's focus on July 11th. That would be the day that

6 Srebrenica fell. Do you recall on that particular day where you were?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you please tell us.

9 A. On that day, I was also providing security along the

10 Sase/Pribicevac road.

11 Q. Did you do that for the entire day?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know whether you stayed over there overnight or did you

14 come in to Bratunac?

15 A. No. That was done until late in the afternoon, and afterwards we

16 would return to Bratunac.

17 Q. Now, when you would return to Bratunac, would you check in with

18 the Bratunac Brigade military police? Would that be one of the

19 formalities?

20 A. Yes. Then, before that, after that, always.

21 Q. All right. Do you recall whether you checked in to the

22 Bratunac Brigade military police on that particular day when you came back

23 into Bratunac from guarding the road at Sase, at the Sase mine?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Do you recall whether on that particular day when you did report,

Page 9759

1 whether you received any additional instructions or tasks to perform?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you please tell us what tasks you received and from whom?

4 A. Well, late in the afternoon just before dark, we were gathered in

5 front of the military police building by Momir Nikolic. He ordered us to

6 use the military police insignia, to put them on our arms, to take our

7 personal weapons, and to go to the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac. And that's

8 what we did.

9 Q. All right. Now, when you say "insignia," could you please tell us

10 so we all know exactly what you are speaking about, insignia for -- that

11 would designate you as a military police officer.

12 A. Well, it's the insignia we used otherwise when we were engaged in

13 activities, when we were engaged in this kind of police work. These are

14 emblems that were worn on the upper arm, below the shoulder that is. The

15 name of the unit was on that emblem and the army, things like that.

16 Q. Did you also have a white belt with a little stripe that goes on

17 that we sometimes see?

18 A. We did not have the little stripe. I know what you are referring

19 to, but belts we did have, yes.

20 Q. Okay. Now, did you go to the Hotel Fontana?

21 A. Yes. We went on foot in the direction of the hotel.

22 Q. And could you please tell us when you went to Hotel Fontana to

23 whom you reported, if anyone.

24 A. In front of the hotel we were met by men who introduced themselves

25 as the personal security detail of General Mladic. And they gave us these

Page 9760

1 certain tasks.

2 Q. Could you please tell us what tasks you were given.

3 A. We were asked to provide this broader security around the

4 Fontana Hotel, to stop traffic in the street that passes in front of the

5 Fontana Hotel, to keep all civilians away, all persons who happened to be

6 in front of the building at that moment, that is what we were asked to do.

7 Q. All right. Now, was that -- was part of your duties just to

8 protect the exterior of the Hotel Fontana, or did that include the

9 interior as well?

10 A. At that moment, only the exterior.

11 Q. Okay. Did that change at some point, in other words, to include

12 the interior as well?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And could you please tell us about what time would it have been

15 when you were also tasked to guard the interior as well.

16 A. I cannot give you the exact time frame, but it was after some

17 negotiations that were held on the ground floor of the Fontana Hotel.

18 When these negotiations were over, these young men told us to provide

19 security for the rooms upstairs as well.

20 Q. All right. Now, before we speak about what you did that evening,

21 could you please tell us how many members of the Bratunac Brigade military

22 police had been tasked to go to Hotel Fontana on the evening of July 11th

23 to provide security.

24 A. I cannot say exactly, but it could have been 10 to 15 policemen.

25 Q. All right. Were there others guarding the Hotel Fontana as well,

Page 9761

1 other than the Bratunac Brigade military police?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Was there a komandir, a commanding officer, among you, someone who

4 had been designated by Momir Nikolic to be in charge of the members of the

5 Bratunac Brigade while on that assignment?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, could you please tell us where did you -- eventually you said

8 that at some point you were guarding the interior as well. What portions

9 of the inside of Hotel Fontana were you guarding, you and your fellow MPs?

10 A. That evening we were involved in security upstairs as well in the

11 hotel, as I already said. We worked in shifts consisting of two men at

12 the very beginning of the stairs, so to speak, not to allow anyone to pass

13 there or to go upstairs.

14 Q. All right. Could you please tell us for how long you were at the

15 Hotel Fontana when you were tasked to go there and provide security.

16 A. All night.

17 Q. At what point then did you leave, if you recall, that area?

18 A. It was early in the morning. I cannot remember the exact time.

19 Q. Would you please tell us who, if anyone, issued the order for you

20 and the other members of the Bratunac Brigade military police to leave

21 your posts?

22 A. No.

23 Q. No, meaning there was no one?

24 A. We went along with the orders given to us the previous evening, to

25 provide security at the hotel during the night, to spend the night there,

Page 9762

1 and then to report at the military police platoon on the following day.

2 So it was only the night that was referred to.

3 Q. All right. And where did you and the other members of the

4 military police go after you left the Hotel Fontana?

5 A. We went to the military police building within the framework of

6 the brigade.

7 Q. All right. Would you recall what time that would have been? Are

8 you able to recall?

9 A. As I said, early in the morning. I cannot recall the exact time.

10 Q. Okay. Now, when you got there did you receive any orders?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How long were you there? How long were you there that morning?

13 A. I cannot remember exactly, perhaps an hour, an hour and a half.

14 Q. All right. And after that what happened?

15 A. Well, we came there. When we reported at the military police

16 platoon, we found Mirko Jankovic there and his deputy Mile Petrovic. They

17 told us not to go anywhere, to wait, that Momir said that we should be on

18 the ready. Where he was and where we would be going is something they did

19 not tell us. We sat there at the military police premises. We had

20 breakfast, and we were waiting. After a while, one of the two, I can't

21 remember who exactly, walked in to the room and said that Momir had called

22 from Zuti Most and that the military police platoon should go to

23 Zuti Most.

24 Q. All right. Now, first of all just for the record, who is

25 Mirko Jankovic?

Page 9763

1 A. The commanding officer of the military police platoon.

2 Q. All right. From the Bratunac Brigade headquarters to the

3 Zuti Most, what's the distance?

4 A. I don't know exactly, perhaps about 2 kilometres.

5 Q. All right. Now, when -- so did you wait for Momir Nikolic to

6 return?

7 A. No. He asked us to go to Zuti Most and he said that he would be

8 waiting for us up there.

9 Q. And did you go to Zuti Most?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How did you get there?

12 A. Well, the first group, including myself, took the military vehicle

13 that we had for our own use, that was a TAM truck, and we headed in the

14 direction of Zuti Most.

15 Q. How were you dressed at the time?

16 A. Oh, yes. He told us to take those emblems of the military police,

17 to make sure we did that, and also to take our personal weapons. He

18 didn't ask for anything special.

19 Q. Now, you say "he," who are we speaking about, Mirko Jankovic or

20 Momir Nikolic?

21 A. Mirko Jankovic told us all of this, but he said that it was

22 Momir Nikolic who asked for all of those things to be done.

23 Q. Do you recall how many members of the military police went with

24 you to the Zuti Most that morning?

25 A. I don't remember exactly. I didn't count. 10 to 15 maybe, merely

Page 9764

1 a half.

2 Q. Now, in the vehicle you were travelling in, were all members of

3 the military police that were scheduled to go from the Bratunac Brigade

4 headquarters to the Zuti Most, could they all fit in, in that vehicle?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you recall how many trips were made or how many vehicles were

7 used to transport the members of the military police there?

8 A. We were brought to the Zuti Most, where it gets broader. 20

9 minutes -- 20 metres from the bridge on the left side there is a clearing,

10 and that's where we were left. And the vehicle then went back to Bratunac

11 to pick up the other members.

12 Q. Were you given any instructions when you arrived in Zuti Most?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. From whom?

15 A. When we got out of the vehicle, Momir Nikolic in person came up to

16 us. He said: "Move on forward. I will catch up with you. And move

17 ahead, and I will be waiting for you up there."

18 Q. And which direction would you have been moving forward to?

19 A. In the direction of Potocari, in the direction of Srebrenica.

20 Q. All right. Now, from the place where you were left off, some 20

21 metres past the Zuti Most where there is a larger area in the road, could

22 you see ahead of you? Could you see whether there were -- whether there

23 was a mass of people?

24 A. No. Because the layout of the terrain is such that -- it's a

25 winding road. All you can see ahead is 50, 100 metres maybe.

Page 9765

1 Q. Other than being told by -- or ordered I should say, by

2 Momir Nikolic to move ahead, at that point in time did you receive any

3 other orders?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you know by any chance, be it by rumour or otherwise, what you

6 were going to be tasked to do for that day?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you move forward, as ordered by Momir Nikolic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And at some point in time did Momir Nikolic -- did you catch up

11 with Momir Nikolic?

12 A. No, he caught up with us and moved ahead.

13 Q. All right. Now -- so he was ahead of you as you were going

14 forward. Is that correct?

15 A. Well, he moved ahead, as I said, in his car and we couldn't see

16 him anymore.

17 Q. All right. Did you see him again later on?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At what point? Where was he when you saw him?

20 A. We were moving in the direction of Potocari, and at a point facing

21 the concrete factory or the battery-producing factory he approached at one

22 point. And we -- we met, yes.

23 Q. How much time had lapsed from the time that you saw him where he

24 said to move ahead, to the time when you met up with him again?

25 A. I don't know exactly. It's a distance of about a kilometre. It

Page 9766

1 could take 10 minutes, maybe, if you move quickly on foot.

2 Q. Now, when you met up with him again by the concrete factory or the

3 battery-producing factory, were you given any instructions by

4 Momir Nikolic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Before you tell us what instructions you were given, could you

7 please tell us how many members of the Bratunac Brigade military police

8 were with you at that point in time.

9 A. At that time, that first group including me was there. So we were

10 10 or 15 maybe. We came there first.

11 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us: What orders did you receive

12 from Momir Nikolic at that point in time.

13 A. At that moment -- I suppose there was more than one order; I heard

14 two. The first was when he spoke to us that he would require a Pinzgauer

15 vehicle to be brought in, which is something like a combat vehicle, that

16 it would have a specific task. He will say what and when. And then he

17 turned, scanned all of us, and he issued the next order to me personally,

18 because it had to do with me.

19 Q. All right. And could you please tell us: What order did

20 Momir Nikolic give you?

21 A. He said: "You will be assisting Colonel Jankovic today. You will

22 report to him and receive further instructions."

23 Q. Did you know who Colonel Jankovic was at the time?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you know what he looked like?

Page 9767

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know from which unit, what part of the VRS, he came from?

3 A. No, I didn't know any of that.

4 Q. Did Mr. Nikolic provide you with any clarification as to who this

5 Colonel Jankovic was and what role he had there in Potocari on that

6 particular day?

7 A. He just pointed him out to me. When I asked him to show me where

8 this Colonel Jankovic was, he turned and he pointed with his hand.

9 Jankovic was standing maybe 20 or 30 metres away from us. He was carrying

10 a leather bag across his shoulder. He was standing there, and I could

11 understand that that was him.

12 Q. All right. Before we get to Colonel Jankovic and your meeting

13 with him, did Momir Nikolic explain to you his role, a role that he had

14 been tasked, assuming one had been tasked of him?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Now, I take it after Colonel Jankovic was pointed out

17 to you and you having an order to go report to him, that's exactly what

18 you did. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Could you please tell us what happened once you

21 reported to Colonel Jankovic.

22 A. I walked up to him because, as I already pointed out, he was an

23 officer with a rank. I introduced myself, told him my full name. I said

24 I was a member of the military police platoon, that Momir Nikolic had sent

25 me to report to him and to be at his disposal.

Page 9768

1 Q. All right. And what was his response?

2 A. He just nodded and after that gave me my instructions.

3 Q. All right. Before you tell us what instructions you were given,

4 could you please tell us -- in your mind at that time, could you please

5 tell us who was your commanding officer, to your understanding.

6 A. Well, as I understood at that moment, and in view of the rank, it

7 was Colonel Jankovic.

8 Q. All right. Could you please tell us what instructions or orders

9 Colonel Jankovic gave you.

10 A. He explained to me in broad terms what my role would be, what my

11 assignments would be for the day, what we would be doing, what would

12 happen, briefly what his part would be with my assistance.

13 Q. Would you please tell us in sort of a broad -- in broad terms what

14 your role was.

15 A. He explained to me that buses and trucks would arrive and that

16 civilians were about to be driven away from Potocari to Kladanj. He said

17 it was his assignment, in which I would assist him, to count the people

18 coming out and he also mentioned he would ask Momir to involve more

19 members of the military police to help us in this.

20 Q. All right. You said that it was his assignment. Did he tell you

21 who had given him this assignment?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were more military police officers of the Bratunac Brigade

24 provided, as he had indicated he would be asking Momir Nikolic?

25 A. Yes. They were there already. It was just a matter of engaging

Page 9769

1 them for this purpose.

2 Q. All right. Before we go into great details as to what you did

3 during -- and what you saw during those two days while you were there,

4 could you please tell us: Did you in fact carry out these tasks that were

5 ordered to you by Colonel Jankovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On the 12th of July, could you please tell us, just very briefly,

8 how long were you in Potocari carrying out this task, that is of counting

9 how many people were going into the buses?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you please tell us how long were you there on the 12th of

12 July.

13 A. I spent there the whole day of the 12th.

14 Q. Were you there on the 13th?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And just very briefly, what did you do on the 13th in Potocari?

17 A. The same tasks as the previous day.

18 Q. And just one final question before we perhaps break for the

19 morning: Was Colonel Jankovic there on the 13th as your commanding

20 officer, as you understood it to be at that point in time, giving you

21 orders with respect to this particular task?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, this may be a good time then. We'll

25 pick up from the 12th and go in detail step by step.

Page 9770

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll have a break and we'll resume at quarter

2 to 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Mr. Janjic, now what I would like to do is go into detail about

8 your activities in Potocari on July 12th, 1995, after you reported to

9 Colonel Jankovic and you received your orders. First of all, could you

10 please tell us: Do you recall about what time it was when you approached

11 Colonel Jankovic and he told you what your tasks would be?

12 A. I cannot recall the exact time, but it was in the morning in any

13 case.

14 Q. All right. Do you recall whether at that point in time buses and

15 trucks had arrived in Potocari?

16 A. No. He said: "When the buses and trucks arrive," which means we

17 were waiting for them.

18 Q. I take it when you were there you were able to see the mass of

19 people that had gathered at Potocari. Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would you please tell us where you were in relation to this mass

22 of people, where you and Colonel Jankovic were standing or sitting in

23 relation to the mass of people.

24 A. Well, in relation to the crowd, we were standing about 100 metres

25 away, closer to Bratunac.

Page 9771

1 Q. All right. Now, at that point in time when you went to see

2 Colonel Jankovic, did you notice whether there were any officers from the

3 Main Staff or the corps, the Drina Corps?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please tell us who you saw.

6 A. I saw a certain number of officers whom I didn't know at that

7 time.

8 Q. Now, what about later on?

9 A. It was later. I don't remember the time. I noticed

10 General Krstic with his entourage, and I couldn't tell you whether it was

11 at that moment or a bit later, but General Mladic with his entourage

12 showed up and a certain number of other officers whom I didn't know.

13 Q. Do you know what they were doing there?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you able to listen in? Were you close enough to them to hear

16 what, if anything, they were saying?

17 A. At some point I heard General Krstic talking -- I don't know what

18 he was saying. He was giving some sort of interview or something.

19 Q. All right. What about General Mladic?

20 A. He too stayed a while when he came. He was also about 100 metres

21 away from the -- that place towards Bratunac -- I mean another hundred

22 metres away in relation to us. He was standing with a group of officers,

23 and they were talking.

24 Q. Were you able to hear from that distance what General Mladic was

25 saying?

Page 9772

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever learn during the course of the day what, if anything,

3 General Mladic had said while he was in Potocari?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please tell us what you learned.

6 A. As I found out, when he moved towards the checkpoint -- towards

7 the barrier where civilians were standing, he also stayed a while at that

8 point. And after that I heard stories from people who happened to be

9 there at that moment, that he said to those people behind him that buses

10 would arrive soon, that they should be patient, and that they would be

11 transported to Kladanj or wherever they wanted to be taken, that they were

12 safe, that there would be no problems for them. But he also asked them

13 that women and children should leave first because they have priority, and

14 men should wait a while longer and be patient. The heat was scorching.

15 There were some people who were not feeling well. UNPROFOR soldiers

16 reacted and helped them. They took some of them away to their base and

17 brought water to others.

18 Q. All right. Now, were you able to hear what, if anything,

19 General Krstic had said when he was there?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, just for the record I would like to show you a photograph

22 that has been provided to us from the Office of the Prosecution. It's a

23 still from a video. And I'm showing you what has been marked as an

24 exhibit as P22, and I believe it's C10 V8. It's from a booklet. It has

25 an ERN of 0291-6170.

Page 9773

1 Do you recognise anyone in that photo, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you please tell us who you recognise.

4 A. Well, under number 2, I see General Krstic, and number 1 is me.

5 Q. Do you recall what day this would have been when you're seen in

6 somewhat close proximity to General Krstic? Would this be the 12th or the

7 13th, if you know?

8 A. No.

9 Q. No, meaning you don't know which of the two days?

10 A. I don't know which day.

11 Q. In the background can you make out what's there, from looking at

12 the background behind you?

13 A. I see those buses. I can see that they are empty and they are

14 probably waiting for people to get in.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further need for this photo.

17 Q. Now, if we can get back to your instructions with

18 Colonel Jankovic. Now, at some point I take it buses did arrive.

19 Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, could you please explain to us what happened and what you did

22 once those buses arrived.

23 A. At the moment when the buses arrived, I took the route that I had

24 been given earlier. It was my task to count the people getting into the

25 buses, and I was getting ready to do that.

Page 9774

1 Q. Could you please tell us the method that you used in counting the

2 people.

3 A. Well, as I said earlier, part of the other members of the military

4 police helped in the counting. In some places two of them would stand

5 together, such as the front door and the back door, and they counted

6 people getting in one by one. I went inside a couple of buses, where I

7 was unable to count people while they were getting in because it was

8 impossible, so I had to get in. Since my colleagues knew that I was

9 reporting the numbers directly to Colonel Jankovic, they told me the

10 numbers they had counted. I noted all that down, and it took us an hour

11 or two the way we were doing it.

12 Q. All right. Could you please tell us how you were keeping track of

13 these numbers.

14 A. Well, this first hour or two I noted down the number of people who

15 got into each bus. I added up the numbers. And at first I reported

16 directly to Colonel Jankovic as soon as I was done, but it was getting

17 impossible to go back and forth after a while. So I asked

18 Colonel Jankovic if it would be possible to operate with an average number

19 of people that could be loaded onto one bus and then multiplied by the

20 number of buses or trucks, and he approved.

21 Q. Now, were you writing these figures down?

22 A. These numbers that I noted down I reported to him. And I was done

23 with that. And then I started using a different method. I drew little

24 lines for every person that got into a trailer truck, truck, or bus into a

25 table that I had prepared earlier, based on the average number of people

Page 9775

1 each vehicle could take. And then I reported those numbers to him, those

2 tables, and he converted them into numbers because he had more time at his

3 disposal.

4 Q. All right. Now, you say you noted them down. I guess concretely,

5 how did you note them down?

6 A. I made a diagram, a table, with columns for buses, trucks, and

7 trailer trucks. If there were five buses, I would put five lines in the

8 column marked "buses."

9 Q. And what sort of writing material for you using?

10 A. A pen.

11 Q. Did you have a notebook? Did you have just loose paper? That's

12 what I'm trying to establish at this point.

13 A. I had a ballpoint pen; all members of the military police had

14 them. We had very small notebooks that we used in our regular military

15 police work. And when I first reported to Colonel Jankovic, he tore a

16 couple of sheets from that notebook that I gave him.

17 Q. And is that what you were using, the sheets of paper, to note how

18 many people were entering the buses?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How often would you report to Colonel Jankovic during the day, if

21 you recall?

22 A. I don't remember exactly, but I reported several times.

23 Q. Do you recall what the final figure was for the first day that you

24 had come up with?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9776

1 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us.

2 A. There were about 9.000 and several hundreds. I don't remember the

3 exact figure.

4 Q. All right. Now, aside from you and the military police of the

5 Bratunac Brigade, was anyone else involved in this counting process?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. And could you please tell us who.

8 A. A member of the civilian police took part in the counting, too. I

9 knew him personally. He was involved in the counting as well.

10 Q. And do you recall what this person's name was? I'm sure the

11 Prosecution would like to know.

12 A. Yes. Milisav Ilic.

13 Q. All right. Now, do you know to whom he was reporting? We know

14 that you were reporting to Colonel Jankovic. To whom was Mr. Ilic

15 reporting to?

16 A. I did not notice that he was reporting to anyone. I would just

17 like to point out that from the very first moment he never entered the

18 buses. He was only counting the buses. At one point in time he asked me

19 for the average number of people that one bus could take, and that was

20 about it. We didn't have any particularly frequent contacts.

21 Q. Did the members of the Bratunac Brigade that were assisting you in

22 this process help you out --

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Shin.

24 MR. SHIN: That may be leading. I don't know if there's a

25 foundation for that question. This reference to members of the

Page 9777

1 Bratunac Brigade assisting in the counting, unless that's limited to the

2 other military police.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, the military --

4 JUDGE LIU: Maybe the question itself is not clear, especially on

5 the members of the Bratunac Brigade. Do you mean the military police or

6 some soldiers from the Bratunac Brigade?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, so far, Your Honour, we haven't heard about

8 anybody else assisting in the counting process. I would like to point out

9 that I haven't finished the question. And I take it I'm going to be

10 allowed to interrupt midstream as well. But if I may be allowed to finish

11 my question, it will become obvious that I'm referring to the military

12 police of the Bratunac Brigade that the gentleman has already indicated in

13 a prior session, which perhaps Mr. Shin has forgotten because he's so busy

14 writing notes. That's what I'm referring to. Because the gentleman did

15 indicate that others were there to assist him, and he's even testified to

16 that just ten minutes ago.

17 JUDGE LIU: I think as a rule the objection should be raised after

18 the question is finished.

19 You may proceed, Mr. Karnavas.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

21 Q. Now, the other members of the Bratunac Brigade military police

22 that were there to assist you in counting the number of passengers

23 entering into the buses, did they remain with you for the entire day, if

24 you know?

25 A. Other military policemen were there, too. However, the conditions

Page 9778

1 became right, in terms of this task that I was carrying out with their

2 assistance, for them to leave, not to be engaged in this task any longer.

3 Q. Would you recall about what time of the day it was when the other

4 members of the Bratunac Brigade military police left you and you were

5 there by yourself carrying out this task, under the direction and control

6 of Colonel Jankovic of the Main Staff?

7 A. I did not say that they left. They left their activities. They

8 abandoned their activities, but some time went by. This counting took

9 place for an hour and a half or two. I am not sure. And after that, they

10 stopped doing what they were doing.

11 Q. All right. Do you recall after they abandoned their activities

12 what they ended up doing? Were you able to see?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you please describe to us what you saw them doing.

15 A. Except for a few of them who were simply there uninterested and

16 without any special obligations, I noticed that that vehicle had already

17 arrived, the combat vehicle. That's what we called it. It arrived at a

18 given point in time around noon, and part of the policemen boarded that

19 vehicle and went somewhere. I don't know where.

20 Q. And just a point of clarification. When you were noting the

21 number of people getting on to the buses, were you also noting the

22 registration of the vehicles so you could keep track of which vehicles

23 were coming and how many were boarding the particular vehicles?

24 A. No, nobody asked me to do that and I was not given that task.

25 Q. While you were there on that particular day carrying out these

Page 9779

1 activities, were you able to see whether any members of the Bratunac

2 Brigade, whether they be military police or soldiers, were committing any

3 abuses or atrocities toward the Muslim population that was there in

4 Potocari?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you ever see men being separated from their families?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You're sure about that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please tell us about what time of day it would have been

11 or how long had you been there when you noticed these activities.

12 A. It was when these first buses were there, that first morning.

13 We're talking about that morning when these first activities started.

14 Q. And could you please tell us: Who was engaged in this activity,

15 that is, the separation of men from their family members?

16 A. While we were waiting all that time for those first buses to

17 arrive, just before they did arrive I noticed that some officers whom I

18 did not know were issuing orders and making some kind of plan, schedule of

19 activities, for some persons unknown to me. Throughout this time, I had

20 personal contacts with these persons. I spoke to them. Since they were

21 unknown persons, it is out of curiosity that we talked and we were asking

22 each other who came from where. And of course I asked them, too, where

23 they came from. They said to me: "We come from the specials." That was

24 clear to me. It was an abbreviation for the special police. That was the

25 word they used.

Page 9780

1 Q. All right. Now, that -- would that be civilian police or military

2 police?

3 A. As far as I know, the special police is within the ranks of the

4 civilian police. It is a special unit.

5 Q. All right. Part of the MUP?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you please tell us how they were dressed.

8 A. They were not dressed the same way all of them. Some of them wore

9 camouflage uniforms that were similar to military uniforms, our uniforms.

10 Some of them had dark clothes, black clothes, black uniforms, even black

11 overalls, something to that effect.

12 Q. Did they ever inform you who was their commander?

13 A. No, and I didn't ask them either.

14 Q. Did you ask them or did they ever inform you as to who had given

15 them the order to carry out the activities that you were able to observe

16 them carrying out, that is the separation of the men from their families?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us.

19 A. When these first people came out, when the first few buses were

20 there, at the very exit 80 or 100 metres away, I cannot be precise about

21 that, I noticed that women and children and some old, exhausted people or

22 men came towards me, towards the buses. I also noticed that groups of men

23 were being taken across the street to the other side and that they moved

24 in the direction of Bratunac. That is to say, towards me, too. I found

25 that to be strange at that moment. I asked the policemen who were next to

Page 9781

1 me why this was being done. They just explained what I had heard before,

2 that Mladic said that that is the way it would be and that they were

3 working in accordance with plans.

4 Q. All right. Did you see Momir Nikolic there at that time?

5 A. At that time, at that moment, right over there, no.

6 Q. Did you see him in Potocari on the 12th, after he had given you

7 your orders, ordering you, that is, to report to Colonel Jankovic?

8 A. Yes. Very often on several occasions, but it wasn't non-stop. It

9 would happen every now and then.

10 Q. Would you please tell us what, if anything, Momir Nikolic was

11 doing while he was in Potocari, that is, what you saw him doing.

12 A. No.

13 Q. No meaning what? You didn't see him doing anything?

14 A. I did not notice any special activities. For the most part, he

15 just strolled around, came and went. I noticed that he talked to some of

16 these officers whom I did not know. That's all.

17 Q. And how was Mr. Nikolic dressed?

18 A. Well, how can I put it? As usual, he was showing off. He was all

19 dressed up. That's the kind of person he was.

20 Q. Did he have his sunglasses on?

21 A. It was hardly ever that he did not wear them. I don't know.

22 Q. Now, did you notice Colonel Blagojevic, the commander of the

23 Bratunac Brigade there, on that day?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, you told us that you were also in Potocari on the 13th. Did

Page 9782

1 you notice Colonel Blagojevic on the 13th in Potocari while you were

2 there?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, I don't want to go into great detail about the 13th, but on

5 that day did you see Momir Nikolic there by any chance?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Now, let's get back to the 12th. You said that you

8 noticed the separation going on, and at one point I believe you indicated

9 that the men were being taken someplace. Could you please describe to us

10 where you noticed the men to be taken to.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. They were going to the other side of the street opposite the

13 buses. So looking from Bratunac, it was the right-hand side. They were

14 taken in the direction of Bratunac, that is to say, that was where the

15 battery manufacturing factory was or the concrete manufacturing factory; I

16 confuse the two. So it's on the right-hand side. There was a big

17 building there, too. Now, was it a house or what kind of building it was,

18 a factory, whatever, I don't know. They were brought into the yard of

19 that particular building.

20 Q. Now, do you know whether they were put into that building itself?

21 A. I could not see because I did not approach the building.

22 Q. Would you please tell us from where you were standing what the

23 distance would have been.

24 A. It's 50 metres, 80 metres, I cannot be more precise than that.

25 Q. Now, did you notice anything unusual about what was happening to

Page 9783

1 these men or what was being done with these men?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you notice whether any of them -- from where you were

4 standing, that is, if any of them were abused?

5 A. I didn't notice anything like that.

6 Q. Were you able to see what, if anything, was happening to their

7 belongings?

8 A. That, I did notice, what was going on with their personal

9 belongings.

10 Q. Would you please describe to us what you were able to observe from

11 the 50 to 80 metres distance that you were from?

12 A. When I would turn around, when I would look in that direction, I

13 would see that these people who approached the gate of that building, if I

14 can call it that, at the gate they put next to themselves all the luggage

15 they had, rucksacks, bags, whatever they were. They would put it down by

16 themselves, on their own. I did not see anyone issuing such orders to

17 them. Then they would enter the compound without that luggage. They

18 would leave the luggage by the gate.

19 Q. Now, when you noticed this activity, what was going through your

20 mind? Did that make an impression, and if so, what was it?

21 A. My assumption was that probably these people who were taking them

22 there were asking them for reasons of safety and security to leave that

23 behind because perhaps somebody might have a weapon in all of that. I've

24 already said that in addition to all of us, the general was present there,

25 too, so I assumed that it was for reasons of safety and security.

Page 9784

1 Q. All right. Now, was the general which -- we're speaking of

2 General Mladic?

3 A. Yes, yes. I'm referring to him, and I'm also referring to the

4 safety and security of all of us there, policemen, officers.

5 Q. Was General Mladic there the entire day?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know whether these men or were you able to see -- let me

8 put it that way. Did you observe whether these men were being frisked for

9 weapons as they were being placed in this yard or in the building?

10 A. I didn't notice that. From the place where I was, I didn't notice

11 any such thing.

12 Q. On that particular day, July 12th, 1995, did any of those men that

13 you were able to see that had been separated and placed in that location,

14 did any of them get on any buses to leave that area?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. About what time of day did that happen? And we're speaking of

17 July 12th, 1995.

18 A. It could have been late in the afternoon, pretty late in the

19 afternoon. I don't know what time exactly.

20 Q. Now, before we go into any great details about this activity,

21 could you please tell us whether the men that ended up boarding the buses

22 were also counted by you as part of the process that had been assigned to

23 you by Colonel Jankovic.

24 A. Yes. I counted their buses.

25 Q. Do you know or do you recall whether you kept a separate

Page 9785

1 accounting of those individuals, or did you throw them into the mix with

2 all the rest?

3 A. No, not with all the rest. All the buses were there at that

4 moment, and I brought them there.

5 Q. Were you given any specific instructions by Colonel Jankovic with

6 regards to these males, Muslim males, from Potocari, whether you should

7 count them, and if so, whether they should be counted separately?

8 A. Yes, I was given instructions. He did not ask for anything

9 special, just at one moment he said -- because women were also boarding a

10 bit away from the place where I was at that time. They were being boarded

11 a bit -- at a lower point about 80 metres away. The buses were parked

12 from that gate towards Bratunac. So there was about 10 or 15 buses times

13 their individual lengths, so that's pretty far away.

14 At one moment, he said: "Boarding is taking place, so go a bit

15 further down so that you don't miss that counting." So that's what I did.

16 Q. All right. Did Colonel Jankovic ask for a separate counting?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, did the men enter the same buses or trucks with the -- with

19 the women and children, or was this a separate boarding process, if you

20 recall?

21 A. The buses that arrived were parked a bit further down, not where

22 the other buses were parked, and they boarded on their own.

23 Q. All right. Now, were you told at that time where the men were

24 being taken, the men that started boarding some time in the afternoon of

25 12 July 1995, the same men that you were counting pursuant to orders by

Page 9786

1 Colonel Jankovic?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know offhand approximately how many buses or trucks of men

4 left that particular day, keeping in mind that you weren't doing a

5 separate counting?

6 A. Well, if I can give a free estimate, it was only buses. I have

7 already said that, between 10 and 15 buses.

8 Q. All right. Could you please tell us: Who issued the orders, if

9 you know, for the men to be boarded on to the buses?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, prior to the men boarding the buses, could you please tell us

12 what you had observed with respect to where the men were being kept. How

13 many men were there?

14 A. I don't know the number of people, but I did notice that detail at

15 some point. An hour or two before the boarding, the yard was full, and

16 the yard stretches all the way to the point where I stood. And as the

17 yard filled starting from the gate, those people were getting rather close

18 to me. There was the wire fence between us. I had my back to them facing

19 the trucks across the street from me. At one point I observed that some

20 sort of mutiny was starting. People were starting to talk loudly, some

21 unrest was beginning. They were protesting against the fact that they

22 were being separated. They were saying: "Why are you separating us? Why

23 aren't you allowing us to leave with our families? Maybe you are about to

24 kill us." Those were their words.

25 Colonel Jankovic was standing close to me at that moment, and I

Page 9787

1 could hear him when he turned to them and said that they had no reason for

2 concern, that everything would be all right. And he said that: "As you

3 heard," those were the words he used because he assumed they had heard the

4 orders given before, "after your women and children have left, you would

5 join them later. There's no reason for panicking."

6 Q. Did you believe Colonel Jankovic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you please describe to us the manner, his demeanor, when he

9 turned and began addressing this crowd, this restless crowd as you put it,

10 of Muslim men that had been separated.

11 A. I had the impression that he was telling the truth. He was

12 generally a calm man, and I did not doubt the honesty of his words. I

13 thought that he at least believed what he was saying. I didn't notice

14 that he was keeping anything from those people.

15 Q. Now, did you learn that day, 12 July 1995, where the men had been

16 taken?

17 A. No.

18 Q. At that time, where did you believe they had been taken?

19 A. Well, I believed they were taken where they had promised -- they

20 had been promised to be taken, to reunite with their families. That was

21 only normal in my view.

22 Q. At what point in time during the day did you finish your tasks in

23 Potocari? We're talking about the 12th of July.

24 A. I cannot give you the precise hour, but it was late afternoon,

25 towards dusk.

Page 9788

1 Q. Before leaving Potocari, would you please tell us whether

2 Colonel Jankovic was still there.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you give him an accounting, a final accounting, of the day

5 before leaving Potocari?

6 A. No. As I said, there was no final number. The reports or numbers

7 came in installments, so to speak, throughout the day, and he was the one

8 who was supposed to do the adding up.

9 Q. Before leaving Potocari, did you receive any orders?

10 A. Yes. An hour, an hour and a half before they left.

11 Q. Who issued the orders?

12 A. Momir Nikolic.

13 Q. And did he issue it personally or was it through someone else such

14 as, for instance, Mirko Jankovic?

15 A. He issued that order personally.

16 Q. And what order was it that Momir Nikolic personally issued to you

17 an hour or so before you left Potocari on July 12th, 1995?

18 A. At one point when I was momentarily left without anything

19 particular to do, a group of us policemen were standing together and he

20 happened to be passing by. He stopped and he said: "When you finish up

21 here, the assembly point is outside the police building. Don't you dare

22 to go away." He did not stay long; he just stopped by to say that. And

23 we did not exchange any comments after we left -- after he left.

24 Q. And what did you understand that order to be?

25 A. Well, I understand him to mean that we would be given further

Page 9789

1 assignments that he would give us down there.

2 Q. All right. Now, how did you get back to Bratunac?

3 A. We returned in our own vehicle that had made several trips there

4 and back. That's the usual truck we used, T-A-M.

5 Q. Do you recall what the lighting conditions were when you arrived

6 back at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters right in front where the police

7 are stationed, the military police are stationed?

8 A. It was late in the afternoon. It was already getting dark.

9 Q. All right. Now, when you assembled as instructed, what

10 instructions -- what further instructions did you receive?

11 A. As far as I was concerned, further instructions were that the

12 security detail from the hotel should return to the same assignment, and

13 that's what we did, meaning the same assignment as the previous evening.

14 Q. And you had been in that previous assignment, Hotel Fontana, on

15 the evening of the 11th. Correct?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Incidentally, you've told us that on the day of the 11th you

18 worked, securing the road up in Sase mine. You came to Bratunac, you were

19 issued an order to be at Hotel Fontana, you were there all night. Then on

20 the 12th you were all day in Potocari, more or less. And now you're being

21 told to go back at the Hotel Fontana. Did you sleep at all during this

22 period?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right. Now, I take it you went back to Hotel Fontana on the

25 12th?

Page 9790

1 A. [No interpretation]

2 Q. Could you please tell us and you -- could you please tell us about

3 what time it would have been when you arrived there.

4 A. I cannot be precise, but it was already getting dark.

5 Q. Okay. How did you get there?

6 A. Just as the previous evening. I was a part of people who were

7 walking on foot.

8 Q. All right. And what's the distance for those of us who haven't

9 been to the headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade? What's the distance

10 between there and the Hotel Fontana?

11 A. Up to 1 kilometre, roughly.

12 Q. Now, in walking from that -- from the Bratunac Brigade

13 headquarters to the Hotel Fontana, does that route take you by any chance

14 by the Vuk Karadzic -- what was known back then as the Vuk Karadzic

15 school?

16 A. No. That school is nowhere near our route.

17 Q. On your way to the Hotel Fontana, did you by any chance notice any

18 buses or trucks full of Muslim men? And we're speaking about 12 July

19 1995.

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. Now, when you got to the Hotel Fontana, could you please tell us:

22 To whom did you report?

23 A. Well, as opposed to the first evening when the security detail of

24 General Mladic was waiting for us to give us instructions, how to do and

25 what to do, they were not there that evening, and we continued to work

Page 9791

1 according to our regular schedule for providing security in the hotel.

2 Q. All right. But who issued the assignments as to who would be

3 stationed where and for how long and at what location?

4 A. Well, it was up to us to identify shifts. We were trying to pair

5 off men who were getting along well in one shift.

6 Q. Now, you indicated that the previous night at one point you were

7 both outside and then guarding the inside as well. Was that the same on

8 the 12th of July?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you not guard at all the inside?

11 A. Well, that previous evening we were guarding only the upper floor

12 where the rooms were. And we guarded the entrance to the Fontana Hotel,

13 the reception desk, and the outer perimeter. Inside, we were guarding the

14 area leading to the stairs, but we were not going upstairs.

15 Q. While you were there, did you notice any upper-echelon officers

16 such as General Mladic, General Krstic, or some of the others?

17 A. While I was outside, there was some officers in the salon, in the

18 lounge. The first night I knew whom we were guarding, and the second

19 night I ignored even that.

20 Q. You ignored or did not know who you were guarding?

21 A. We simply didn't know the second night.

22 Q. Okay. All right. Now, did you manage to sleep at all that night?

23 A. Very briefly with interruptions while we were standing guard

24 inside. In the lobby you could get some rest, sitting down. But if you

25 were standing guard outside, there was no rest.

Page 9792

1 Q. How long did you stay at the Hotel Fontana during the night of

2 July 12, 1995?

3 A. All night.

4 Q. At what point in time did you leave the Hotel Fontana?

5 A. Earlier than the first day. I couldn't be more precise.

6 Q. So that would be July 13, then, 1995?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you please tell us who issued the order for you to leave the

9 Hotel Fontana?

10 A. We were given our orders when we came, to provide security in the

11 Fontana Hotel that night, the whole night, and then return to the police.

12 Later in the morning, nobody added anything. And in the morning we were

13 supposed to leave, go back to our headquarters, and get new assignments.

14 We were hoping, in fact, to get some rest after that.

15 Q. Did you return to your headquarters?

16 A. Yes, to the police building.

17 Q. When you returned, were you alone or did you return with some or

18 all of the others?

19 A. Well, all of us returned, but in clusters, in several groups with

20 a dozen of metres between us.

21 Q. And on that occasion how did you get back to the headquarters,

22 what means?

23 A. As I said, we returned in small groups on foot, three or four men

24 per group.

25 Q. Did you take the same route that you had taken the previous night

Page 9793

1 in getting to the Hotel Fontana?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On your way back from the Hotel Fontana, did you notice whether

4 there were any buses or trucks with Muslim men being held in Bratunac?

5 A. No. There were no buses. We didn't see anyone.

6 Q. During the evening while you were there guarding the Hotel

7 Fontana, had you learned whether there were any Muslim men in buses or

8 trucks in Bratunac?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And finally, before we move on, when you were at the Hotel Fontana

11 during the night of the 12th going into the morning of the 13th, did you

12 at any point in time patrol the city of Bratunac, be it for personal

13 reasons or otherwise?

14 A. No, if you're asking me about the 12th. On the 11th and the 12th.

15 Q. Now, when you get back to the headquarters on the morning of July

16 13, 1995, could you please tell us what you did.

17 A. We stayed there very briefly. And we received instructions to go

18 back. Those people who had been in Potocari were to go back and to

19 continue with the same assignments, with the proviso that I knew from the

20 previous day, having heard it from Colonel Jankovic, that we would

21 continue at the same rate tomorrow. He meant the 13th. That was as far

22 as I was concerned.

23 Q. All right. Now, when you said that "we would continue at the same

24 rate," I take it you're referring to you and Colonel Jankovic?

25 A. Yes. We would be doing the same things, the counting, et cetera.

Page 9794

1 Q. Would you please tell us, if you recall, who it was on the morning

2 of July 13, 1995, that issued the instruction to the members of the

3 Bratunac Brigade military police, that is, to continue doing what the

4 members had been doing the previous day.

5 A. At that moment after we had waited for about half an hour, having

6 come from the Fontana Hotel, Momir Nikolic came and said: "You men from

7 Potocari, go there and continue." And the rest stayed assembled there

8 because he was giving them some instructions. I, with my group, left; I

9 didn't hear what they were saying.

10 Q. In light of the fact that you had been up close to two days now,

11 or perhaps even longer than that, did you by any chance inform

12 Momir Nikolic that you might need a rest?

13 A. No, not that morning. We hinted at it in Potocari. The previous

14 evening when we spoke to him, when he said that we should assemble outside

15 the police headquarters, we protested a little, saying that we were very

16 tired, exhausted in fact. However, he didn't care, and there was nothing

17 much that we could do.

18 Q. Now, I take it you went to Potocari as instructed, correct, on the

19 morning of the 13th?

20 A. Yes. We used the same vehicle, that truck we had, and we left.

21 Q. Do you recall about what time it would have been when you got to

22 Potocari on that day?

23 A. I cannot recall the exact time. It was in the morning.

24 Q. When you arrived in Potocari, did you find Colonel Jankovic there

25 waiting for you?

Page 9795

1 A. I did not see him anywhere around when I arrived.

2 Q. Did you see him later on that day?

3 A. Yes. When the first buses arrived and I believe the boarding had

4 already started, around that time I saw him.

5 Q. Did you notice whether any other officers, higher-echelon

6 officers, were there at the time when you arrived? And I'm speaking about

7 officers from the Main Staff or the Drina Corps.

8 A. I did not see any officers that I knew.

9 Q. Did you see any soldiers there or the MUP, the specials as you put

10 it?

11 A. Well, I found the same set of people as previously. When I came,

12 the checkpoint was not empty. All the men and all the officers were

13 there. People were already lined up, ready to release groups towards the

14 buses.

15 Q. Could you please tell us how large was the group on this

16 particular morning, that is, the morning of the 13th of July, in light of

17 the evacuation process that had taken place the previous day?

18 A. There was that group of policemen. Is that what you mean?

19 Q. No -- well, aside from -- I'm speaking of the Muslim women,

20 children, men. How large of a group had remained there over night?

21 A. I was not able to see that from the point where I was standing.

22 You could see they were there and that the crowd reached all the way to

23 the barrier. But how far towards Srebrenica the crowd stretched, I was

24 unable to see.

25 Q. Did you notice when you arrived whether men had been separated and

Page 9796

1 kept in the same location where you had told us the day before?

2 A. We are talking about the yard of that building. I could not

3 identify. There were members of police sitting in clusters having

4 breakfast. The yard was empty. I didn't go inside the building.

5 Q. Did you ever go by that building and walk around that building and

6 go inside the building to see what, if anything, had happened to any of

7 those Muslim males that had been kept there, either the 12th, overnight,

8 on the 13th?

9 A. I did not pass by. There were none outside the building, and I

10 don't know about the inside.

11 Q. And I failed to ask you one question with respect to the 12th and

12 that building and the Muslim males that had been separated and placed

13 there. From your location, did you hear any unusual noises that would

14 give you pause that they were being abused in any fashion?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you hear any shots coming from that direction that would give

17 you pause that perhaps some of them were being shot at or killed?

18 A. No, no.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Now, Your Honour, I believe this might be a good

20 time.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's the right time for a break. We'll resume

22 at 12.30.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

Page 9797

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

2 Q. Sir, we were on July 13th, 1995. Would you please tell us how

3 long you were in Potocari on that day.

4 A. All day.

5 Q. Would you please tell us what you did all day.

6 A. The same assignment like on the previous day, counting the buses

7 and getting the numbers right.

8 Q. On that particular day, did you get any further instructions from

9 Colonel Jankovic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And how was his demeanor on that day? How did he appear to you?

12 A. Like on the previous day, I couldn't notice anything. Only at one

13 moment this member of the MUP was nearby. He was doing the same work that

14 we were doing. And he sort of said that we should pay a bit more

15 attention because the numbers did not match. I assumed that he knew the

16 number of MUP members there as well. So he wanted us to be more precise.

17 Q. All right. Now, during that day did you notice any abuse? Did

18 you observe anyone being abused?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you notice separation going on, as you had the day before?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And during the separation process, do you know whether anyone was

23 being abused?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And the men that were being separated, where were they placed the

Page 9798

1 second day, that is on July 13th?

2 A. In the same yard of that particular building or house.

3 Q. All right. Now, at some point did you notice whether these men

4 were also being transported out of there?

5 A. Yes, but later.

6 Q. When you say "later," how long had you been there before you

7 noticed that the men were also being transported out of there?

8 A. I do not know precisely. I know that the yard was full, like on

9 the previous day. So there were a lot of people across the street from

10 that house, too. And then after that, they started boarding as well.

11 Q. Were you counting the buses with the men as well on the second

12 day, July 13th?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And didn't you -- did you incorporate your numbers into the

15 figures, as you had done the day before?

16 A. Completely the same, like the day before.

17 Q. When the men started being transported out, were there still women

18 and children in Potocari on the 13th, also being transported out at the

19 same time?

20 A. Yes, at the same time.

21 Q. Okay. Do you recall for how long this process went on, that is

22 the evacuation of women, children, and men on July 13?

23 A. All day.

24 Q. Do you recall what time on July 13 you left Potocari?

25 A. Late in the afternoon, just before dark.

Page 9799

1 Q. During that day, did you notice what, if anything, Momir Nikolic

2 was doing in Potocari?

3 A. During the course of the day he came and went several times, so he

4 was not there all the time. I didn't notice any other activities during

5 the day. Towards the very end of that day, at one moment I noticed him.

6 I was right next to him. That was it.

7 Q. We'll talk more about Momir and what he did later on that day.

8 But first, could you please tell us: After you had completed your task

9 with Colonel Jankovic, that is the counting of persons that had been

10 entering these buses, do you recall whether you were given any other

11 instructions or orders?

12 A. From Colonel Jankovic at one point in time, yes, towards the end

13 of all that, the boarding, I mean.

14 Q. Now, could you please tell us about what time it was when

15 Colonel Jankovic gave you this other order on July 13th.

16 A. The last buses were boarding then. It was the end. It was at

17 that moment.

18 Q. And what did Colonel Jankovic instruct you to do?

19 A. He asked me whether I knew whether we, the policemen, had an

20 available vehicle, and I said we did. Because near me was the driver of

21 that police vehicle of ours, the TAM, that is. Then he told me to go with

22 him towards Srebrenica, towards the barrier, so to go in the direction of

23 Srebrenica to see whether there were any people left. Because everything

24 had been over by then. The barrier had been removed. So that's what I

25 did.

Page 9800

1 Q. All right. Was anyone else with you?

2 A. Only the driver, the truck driver.

3 Q. Could you please tell us how far you went with the TAM or this

4 vehicle.

5 A. We went in the direction of Srebrenica, about 3 or 4 kilometres.

6 Q. Did you actually get into Srebrenica?

7 A. No. Potocari-Srebrenica is perhaps about 10 kilometres. I don't

8 know.

9 Q. And during this drive, did you find anyone? Did you notice

10 anyone?

11 A. Yes. His assignment was to see whether there were any other

12 people coming in, civilians, whether they were being brought in. There

13 weren't any at the barrier, but we were supposed to tell them if we saw

14 any to come to this same place and to wait there. They should be ready

15 for the buses in the morning, that no one would be left behind, that these

16 buses would come to pick them up, too. Also, we were supposed to tell

17 them not to panic, that there was no need to panic, and that everything

18 would be all right.

19 Q. Now, when you drove that 3 or 4 kilometres from Potocari toward

20 Srebrenica, did you come across anyone that had been left behind or

21 was -- had remained behind?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you please tell us how many and perhaps where.

24 A. As we went along the road, we stopped at a few places where we

25 would see groups of people. For the most part, these were smallish groups

Page 9801

1 of five or ten persons, mostly women. Some people were actually in front

2 of houses, some even entered the houses. We could even see fire.

3 Somebody was inside. We told them what we were supposed to tell them, and

4 my conclusion was that they were watching us silently, uninterested. So

5 we went all the way up, and then we went back.

6 Q. Did you transport any of these people that you had seen back to

7 Potocari?

8 A. No. No. We followed orders. We told them where they were

9 supposed to wait. We did not take them.

10 Q. Do you recall about how many in total you were able to observe

11 during this 3- to 4-kilometre drive that you took from Potocari towards

12 Srebrenica?

13 A. A couple of dozen of people. I don't think there were very many.

14 Some were already moving along. Some were moving in the direction of

15 Potocari, things like that.

16 Q. When you returned to Potocari, did you give a report to

17 Colonel Jankovic who had issued this order to you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what, if anything, did he tell you to do next?

20 A. No. He just nodded and he said: "We finished for today."

21 Q. All right. Do you recall what the lighting conditions were at

22 this point in time?

23 A. It wasn't dark yet, but it was late in the afternoon, just before

24 dark.

25 Q. Now, from there once Colonel Jankovic had told you that you were

Page 9802

1 through for the day, could you please describe to us what you did.

2 A. Well, after that -- well, Momir Nikolic was there, too. He told

3 us to report yet again, all of us who were there, to report at the police.

4 He emphasised that.

5 Q. Could you please describe to us who Momir Nikolic was with, other

6 than the military police. Did you notice whether he was with anyone?

7 A. No. It was basically three or four military policemen. They were

8 busy with some car there, something like that.

9 Q. All right. Well, before we get to the car, do you recall, off

10 chance, the military police that were with Momir Nikolic, the individuals?

11 Can you recollect who they were?

12 A. Colleagues for the most part. I can't remember all their names.

13 I know the driver I went with, but ...

14 Q. Was he there?

15 A. He was with me.

16 Q. Okay. And that driver, what's his name again?

17 A. Milan Gvozdenovic.

18 Q. Now, you said that there was Momir Nikolic there and there was

19 something to do with a car. First of all, what was the make of the car,

20 if you recall, and the colour?

21 A. I remember the colour. As for the make, a Toyota or Mazda, I'm

22 not sure, sky blue.

23 Q. And what was Momir Nikolic trying to do with this car, this Toyota

24 or Mazda that was sky blue in colour?

25 A. As far as I could see, he was trying, with the assistance of the

Page 9803

1 policemen, these colleagues, to start the car, to ignite it. They were

2 trying to get it going, but I didn't look at the details.

3 Q. Did you know whose car this was? Who did it belong to?

4 A. At that moment, no. But later on I asked the policemen. When we

5 were going back, I asked them about those details.

6 Q. And what did you learn?

7 A. According to what they said, that car was at the factory where the

8 UNPROFOR base was. I don't know how it was driven out of there, whether

9 it was the owner who drove it out or the soldiers. That I don't know. I

10 cannot say. I cannot say how they got it, and ultimately they did manage

11 to get it going and they took it in the direction of Bratunac.

12 Q. All right. Well, what was Momir Nikolic's involvement with this

13 car?

14 A. He's the one who drove it.

15 Q. All right. Did you see him driving it -- driving away with that

16 car on the evening of the 13th, late afternoon?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, did you ever learn who the owner was, the rightful owner, of

19 that car?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Can we say that it was not Momir Nikolic?

22 A. No. No, I mean it wasn't him, that's for sure.

23 Q. Okay. All right. Now, after you left Potocari, where did you go?

24 A. I've already mentioned that he told us to report to the military

25 police at the military police building. When the last bus left, we got

Page 9804

1 into our vehicle and we went towards the police building in that vehicle.

2 Q. All right. And what were the lighting conditions when you arrived

3 at the police building by the Bratunac Brigade?

4 A. You could still see, but it had started getting dark.

5 Q. Did you receive any orders once you returned to that location?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who issued the orders?

8 A. Momir was right in front of the police building, and there were a

9 lot of policemen there. I could say that all of them who happened to be

10 there were there by the car. They were watching, and he was among them.

11 Because he had arrived before me in the truck. I don't know how much time

12 before we did. When I came on the truck, I found him there with the

13 policemen.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. A few minutes later he issued an order to us, that all the

16 policemen who had remained, that meant that not everybody was there, not

17 all the policemen were there, that we should get involved in securing the

18 school and the buses, as he said the buses were on the street.

19 Q. All right. Now, prior to getting this order, were you aware that

20 there were men in buses and in the school, for instance, Muslim men from

21 Potocari? Were you aware of that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Please tell us at what point in time you learned of this detail

24 and from whom.

25 A. I found out on that day, the 13th, when they started leaving, when

Page 9805

1 the bus -- when the men started leaving, when the yard was full. In front

2 of it, they started boarding the buses. Then military policemen got

3 involved. They got on to the buses and left on the buses. I found that

4 unusual on that day. I noticed that all these same people returned,

5 because I knew them, as opposed to the other ones that said they were

6 specialists. Very soon they returned with empty buses.

7 Q. All right. And?

8 A. When I had enough time, because I had work to do, I walked up to a

9 few of my colleagues and I asked them where it was that they were going,

10 since they managed to return so quickly. I found it strange. The buses

11 would leave with women on the buses, that was the previous day, and when

12 those buses would leave they wouldn't come back for quite a while. They

13 told me that the order was for us to take them to Bratunac. That's where

14 they got them out of the vehicles, at the school. They said that there

15 were people, they didn't say who these people were, that were guarding

16 them down there, and that's why they got back so quickly.

17 Q. All right. Could you please tell us whether they had informed you

18 who had issued that order, that is, for the men from Potocari on the 13th

19 to be taken to the school?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you inquire who had issued that order?

22 A. No. No, I didn't inquire, and they didn't say anything on their

23 own.

24 Q. Did you find it strange that here you would have this elaborate

25 process of men boarding the buses in Potocari and then being transported

Page 9806

1 only 10 kilometres away and placed in the school. Did you find that

2 rather strange?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you learned of this, did you in any way inform

5 Colonel Jankovic so at least he would know that the men were being taken

6 to Bratunac, as opposed to what he had represented to them the day before

7 on the 12th, that pursuant to General Mladic's orders they would be

8 accompanying or meeting up with their families?

9 A. No. I asked the policemen when I found it strange. I did not ask

10 them who gave them these orders, but I asked why they did not go like they

11 did the previous day in the direction of Kladanj. And they said that for

12 the sake of security, the Potocari checkpoint was supposed to be done and

13 over with. There weren't enough vehicles. They would be there only

14 briefly, vehicles were coming, and then they would go on. It was

15 something I found clear, this explanation of theirs, so I didn't ask

16 anything else. And I did not discuss the issue with Colonel Jankovic.

17 Q. All right. Well, the previous day you said that the men had gone

18 toward or to Kladanj. Do you know for a fact whether they went there or

19 they went toward there?

20 A. Not for a fact, but that was my understanding of what they had

21 said, that the women were going and that the men would follow. And I was

22 convinced that that was the way it was.

23 Q. Now, on the 13th you told us that what caught your attention and

24 what caused you to make this inquiry was the fact that the turnaround

25 period when the men would leave Potocari and then almost immediately the

Page 9807

1 bus would return, did you notice that on the 12th?

2 A. No. And that's because on the 12th the buses -- do you mean the

3 men?

4 Q. Yes. What I'm -- let me rephrase. You were saying something.

5 You wanted -- I don't want to cut you off.

6 A. Their buses, those 10 or 15 buses, left toward the end of the day;

7 they did not return anymore. No buses returned, so I was unable to know

8 whether they took a long time or not.

9 Q. All right. Thank you. I think that's the point I wanted some

10 clarification.

11 Now, getting back to where we had left off, that is the evening of

12 the 13th, you got your instructions from Momir Nikolic with respect to

13 providing further security of buses in town, did Mr. Nikolic tell you

14 exactly where you and the others had to report to?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And where exactly did he tell you to report?

17 A. For the most part, it was guarding the school, as I said, and the

18 vehicles, the buses, on the streets of the town. Nothing more precise

19 than that.

20 Q. Did he give any explanations as to why the men were there, how

21 long they would be there, and perhaps where their destination was to be?

22 A. Not at first. But he told us when we insisted that we were tired,

23 that it was God knows what day running that we were going without sleep,

24 he explained that this mission would take only a short while, that

25 vehicles were already on the way along with men who would take them over

Page 9808

1 for the remaining leg of their trip, and that our assignment would be

2 completed by midnight, and that after that we would be free to take some

3 rest.

4 Q. All right. Now, was your assignment completed by midnight?

5 A. No.

6 Q. First of all, did you go to where you were instructed to go to,

7 that is where the school is and where the buses were located?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you please tell us how long you were there, you yourself

10 that is.

11 A. All night.

12 Q. When you say "all night," could you please tell us at what point

13 in time you left that location.

14 A. Early morning, between 6.00 and 7.00 a.m.

15 Q. Would you please describe to us what you saw when you first

16 arrived there.

17 A. Well, along the way, the school building is halfway towards the

18 Fontana Hotel, on the left. I was moving along that road from the brigade

19 command towards the Fontana Hotel. And at the turn-off towards the school

20 building, it was our task, namely the street from the beginning of the

21 high street all the way to the school building, the street was lined with

22 buses. Our task was to guard this stretch of the road. I took the

23 opportunity to visit my house, which was 10 or 15 minutes away. I lived

24 very close to the Fontana Hotel, close to the town hall. I just wanted to

25 drop by, because I had some problems of family nature. And then I thought

Page 9809

1 I would return and resume my tasks immediately. That's what I did. I

2 stayed only 15 minutes. I was away for 15 minutes, including the time it

3 took me to get there and back.

4 Q. All right. Now, when you got back -- when you went to the

5 location, could you please tell us what the lighting conditions were then.

6 A. It was already dark. The street lights were on.

7 Q. Could you please tell us whether you noticed anyone that you

8 recognised.

9 A. As I was going back from my house, I crossed the main street which

10 went from the petrol station to the Fontana Hotel. There were many buses

11 parked outside the town hall, and I noticed members of the Bratunac police

12 standing by the buses. I went on my way. And in front of the MUP

13 headquarters, I was actually moving along that road that leads to the

14 school. The school was on my left.

15 Outside of the MUP headquarters I saw two policemen. I asked them

16 what our plan of work was. He said -- they said there were policemen

17 deployed on both sides of the road. And they said: "Stay with us," which

18 I did.

19 Q. Now, were they military police or were they MUP?

20 A. They were military police.

21 Q. Now, did you walk around that night or did you stay in one place?

22 A. At that point where I stopped, there were three buses which we

23 covered plus one truck. It was also a TAM truck but rather large; it was

24 full. We covered all-in-all about four vehicles. We moved together in a

25 group along the buses.

Page 9810

1 Q. Now, when you say "we," who are we speaking of?

2 A. I mean myself and the other two military policemen.

3 Q. How close were these vehicles to the school itself?

4 A. 100, 150 metres. I couldn't tell you.

5 Q. Now, that street where you were located throughout the night,

6 could you please tell us how close it is to the soccer stadium that's in

7 Bratunac.

8 A. The street along which I came runs at a straight angle towards the

9 street leading to the school building and continues on towards the

10 football stadium.

11 Q. All right. But could you tell us how close you were to that -- to

12 the entrance where the football stadium is, for instance.

13 A. 150 metres, maybe less. 100 to 150.

14 Q. From your location would it have been possible for you to hear

15 shooting coming from the football stadium?

16 A. Yes --

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not certain. Could the

18 witness repeat.


20 Q. Could you please repeat your answer.

21 A. Yes, 150 metres. It was close.

22 Q. Well, you know, I'm just trying to get all the details. Well, did

23 you hear of any shooting that was going on that night, coming from that

24 direction that would have led you to believe that killings were going on

25 in the soccer stadium?

Page 9811

1 A. I didn't hear shooting from that direction.

2 Q. Were you aware at that time that there were Muslim men in that

3 stadium?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Could you please tell us what special instructions, if any, you

6 had received prior to taking up your position. In other words, along with

7 your order to go and guard the buses, were you ever given any specific

8 instructions as to what you were to do once you were there?

9 A. Yes. As far as the buses were concerned, we were told that the

10 bus drivers were not present, that we were not allowed to open the doors

11 or let anyone in or out. And as far as we were able, we were to keep away

12 all civilians who happened to be around and to take care to prevent any

13 incidents.

14 Q. All right. Now, during the night that you were there, did you

15 hear any shootings?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you please describe to us from where you were located where

18 the sound of the shooting or shootings were coming from.

19 A. From the point where I was standing, the shots were coming from my

20 right, which is the direction of the school, Vuk Karadzic school.

21 Q. Could you please tell us how many shots you believe you heard that

22 particular night, if you recall.

23 A. I couldn't be precise. It was volleys of automatic gunfire. One

24 volley of automatic gunfire. I cannot tell you how long or I cannot tell

25 you even the number of rounds.

Page 9812

1 Q. Did anything that you recall happen preceding this volley of

2 rounds of automatic gunfire?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please explain to us what you recall you heard prior to

5 the volley of automatic gunfire.

6 A. Before all this around the middle of the night or perhaps a little

7 later, half an hour and before that and all the way up to when the

8 shooting started, shouts were coming from the direction of the school.

9 Whether they were coming from people standing outside the school building

10 or inside, I couldn't be precise.

11 Q. And what were these shouts about, if you recall?

12 A. Those were male voices shouting, shouting the same thing over and

13 over again. I could even say that it was one and the same voice calling

14 something like: "People from Glogova, where are you? What are we waiting

15 for? Don't you see they're going to kill us all?"

16 And the point was that he was calling them to take some action,

17 resistance maybe. I couldn't tell you the exact words, but that was the

18 point.

19 Q. All right. Do you know what, if anything, happened to this

20 individual?

21 A. I don't know that. I know that after the shooting I could no

22 longer hear the shouts. That much is certain: When the shooting was

23 over, the shouting did not continue.

24 Q. All right. Did you know what he was talking about when he

25 said -- when he mentioned "Glogova"? Do you know whether he was referring

Page 9813

1 to any particular incident that might have occurred earlier?

2 A. No. There were no incidents. I had no associations whatsoever.

3 Q. All right. Now, during the night did you shoot at anyone?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did the two military police that you were with, did they shoot at

6 anyone?

7 A. No. No, the place where we were standing was under control. We

8 had absolutely no problems with these people.

9 Q. And did you see anyone else, aside from your colleagues that you

10 were with, abusing anyone on that particular night?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know a Mr. Bozic by any chance?

13 A. Bozic, I don't remember the first name.

14 Q. All right. Was there a Mr. Bozic that was a member of the

15 Bratunac Brigade military police?

16 A. There is a Zdravko Bozic.

17 Q. That's exactly who I'm referring to, Zdravko.

18 A. Although I keep thinking and I remember that there is another

19 Bozic, maybe it's Cvijetin.

20 Q. Do you recall whether you saw him that evening?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. Did you see Momir Nikolic that evening?

23 A. He passed by at one point early in the evening before that

24 incident, if we use it as a point of reference.

25 Q. Could you tell us approximately how long you had been there at

Page 9814

1 your location prior to seeing Mr. Nikolic.

2 A. It must have been between 10.00 and 12.00 when he passed by,

3 around 11.00 maybe.

4 Q. At that time did Mr. Nikolic give any particular instructions?

5 A. No. He only confirmed what he had said before. Just in passing,

6 informally, he said: "Go on working for a little while longer. You'll

7 get some rest later." He didn't stop.

8 Q. All right. Now, you indicated that you were there throughout the

9 whole night and then sometime in the early morning hours you left. Prior

10 to leaving, did help arrive, as had been promised by Momir Nikolic?

11 A. Yes, but not in the middle of the night when he promised, but

12 early in the morning, towards dawn.

13 Q. Do you recall who these folks were that had come to help out?

14 A. I knew them by sight, but I didn't know which unit they belonged

15 to.

16 Q. Were they members of the Bratunac Brigade?

17 A. Certainly not, judging by their uniforms.

18 Q. Well, speaking of uniforms, could you please assist us. How were

19 they dressed?

20 A. They were wearing black overalls with black bandannas. Some of

21 them were leading hound dogs, German shepherds, on a leash. They were

22 rather rowdy and arrogant. They shouted at the people inside the trucks.

23 Q. Where had you seen these folks before, if indeed you had?

24 A. There was a smaller number of men along the road going from the

25 barrier in uniforms of the same kind. Much fewer than there. I didn't

Page 9815

1 know their faces, but I could see the uniforms were the same.

2 Q. All right. Now -- but had you -- I believe you said that you had

3 recognised them or by face, you had seen their faces before. And perhaps

4 I misunderstood. Had you seen these folks before someplace?

5 A. Well, I saw the uniforms at the police checkpoint in Potocari.

6 Q. Okay. Do you know whether they had a commanding officer with them

7 at that point in time?

8 A. Yes. They had a commanding officer or officers, rather, but I

9 didn't know them. I judged that they were officers because they were

10 giving the other men tasks, telling them what to do, telling them to go on

11 to the buses, that at least one man should go on to each bus. I thought

12 they were officers; maybe I was mistaken.

13 Q. Do you know if there was one particular individual that stood out

14 as the person in charge of this particular group?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Prior to going to that location the night before, had

17 Momir Nikolic informed you who your commanding officer would be during the

18 night while you performed those functions?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. Now, you said that you left sometime in the early

21 morning. Could you please tell us when it was that you left. What was

22 going on at the time?

23 A. When these people were coming, they started boarding the trucks.

24 The drivers were not around at the moment. One or two of these armed

25 persons I shall call them, because I don't know who they were, got on to

Page 9816

1 the buses, and then the vehicles left. There were vehicles standing the

2 whole length of the road between the brigade command and the Fontana

3 Hotel. And then they left along the main road towards the brigade

4 command.

5 Q. What did you do?

6 A. I didn't do anything. I stayed on. Seven or eight buses had

7 already left. And then it was the turn of the buses and the truck that I

8 was guarding, together with my colleagues, the three buses and one truck.

9 People started boarding them. The buses left. We stayed on a minute

10 longer for the truck to leave as well. And after it was done, our

11 assignment for the night was over and we, too, left to get that rest we

12 had been promised. It was maybe the first time that we did not go first

13 to the police headquarters to report. That was the regular practice.

14 Q. Do you recall when again you reported to work or reported back to

15 the military police headquarters for your next assignment?

16 A. Yes. It was on that same day when we went home, in the morning.

17 When we left there were no buses left, nothing and no one. In the

18 afternoon we found some policemen in the police headquarters, including

19 Mile Petrovic, the deputy commander. I did not see the commander, Mirko,

20 around. Mile Petrovic said there were no particular assignments waiting

21 for us, except that he himself plus another two policemen who had had less

22 work to do in the previous days to do the normal guard duty. He said the

23 rest of us were free. After that, I went back home.

24 Q. Did you see any buses there when you returned?

25 A. In the town?

Page 9817

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. No, not even when I came there and even less when I was leaving.

3 Q. Did you report to Momir Nikolic what you had seen earlier, that is

4 those armed men with the different uniforms that had a rather rude and

5 obnoxious behaviour?

6 A. After they arrived, I didn't see him anywhere around. And the

7 next day, that afternoon in the police quarters, he wasn't there either.

8 Q. All right. Now, we've heard testimony in this courtroom that

9 sometime thereafter a few -- a month or two months thereafter there was a

10 reburial process going on, where bodies were taken out of certain graves

11 and then redistributed to new sites. Were you in any way involved in that

12 process?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.


15 Q. Please repeat your answer.

16 A. No, not in any way.

17 Q. All right. Now, I just want to go back to the soccer stadium.

18 You told us where you were located in relation to that soccer stadium.

19 Are there any residential apartment buildings near the soccer stadium?

20 A. No -- yes.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. The witness is not

22 very distinct when he speaks.


24 Q. Now, from the apartment buildings that are near the soccer

25 stadium, would one be able to look into the stadium to see if -- what's

Page 9818

1 happening in the stadium?

2 A. The buildings are very close, but viewed from the other side

3 perhaps about 150 metres. And the sports field is practically in the

4 centre of town and there is a fence around it only. It's about 2 metres

5 tall. So it's not that you have proper seats around it or anything like

6 that. Perhaps there are just a few seats in the direction of Glogova, on

7 that side. So everything can be seen from there.

8 Q. And so getting back to -- just make sure that I understand your

9 answer correctly. From the apartment buildings looking towards the soccer

10 field, the residents of those apartment buildings would be able to see

11 what is happening in the field itself?

12 A. Oh, yes. They always watch games from their terraces.

13 Q. Now, assuming - and I know I'm asking you a hypothetical - but

14 assuming that there were some thousand Muslims in that soccer stadium and

15 several officers were there shooting and killing some of those Muslim men

16 that were there with automatic rifles, with their hand pistols, and what

17 have you, do you think that you would have heard and noticed those events

18 from where you were located?

19 A. Well, if I heard those shouts from the right side, of course I

20 would have heard them from the left side, too, not to mention shooting and

21 things like that.

22 Q. Now, have you heard what happened to the men that left -- that

23 were in those buses and left Bratunac? Did you hear what happened to

24 them?

25 A. No.

Page 9819

1 Q. I'm not speaking whether you heard what happened to them back

2 then, but afterwards, later on. Did you ever learn where those people

3 ended up?

4 A. Well, the media indicated that most of these people were killed,

5 but I will not be the judge of that. I believe that the truth will come

6 out.

7 Q. All right. Did you see any killings while you were there?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. Now, how is it possible that you didn't know that

10 those people were about to be killed, in light of your close proximity to

11 them for the two days, the 12th and the 13th, and in light of what you

12 were able to see and observe? Do you have an explanation?

13 A. I don't understand the proximity that you are talking about.

14 Q. Well, you were in Potocari on the 12th and the 13th.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. One may draw the conclusion that because you were there, because

17 you had seen the men being separated, because you had seen the women,

18 children, and men being transported out of there, that it would stand to

19 follow, logically speaking, that you would also know the fate of the men.

20 A. No, no. I could not have even thought of any such thing, that

21 something like that had happened.

22 Q. Did Colonel Jankovic at any point in time give you the impression

23 that he knew what would happen to the men?

24 A. No. I believe that I could have noticed something like that from

25 his behaviour, but as much as I got to know him as a person and as an

Page 9820

1 officer over this brief period of time, he behaved in a correct manner.

2 He seemed sincere to me, and I did not suspect him in any way of having

3 participated in any such thing.

4 Q. All right. I want to show you what has been introduced into

5 evidence as D164. It's a report from Colonel Jankovic to the command of

6 the Drina Corps, intelligence department. It was sent July 14, 1995, 30

7 minutes into July 14, 1995. If you could look at that last paragraph

8 where it says "PS," the very last paragraph. Do you see that, sir?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you please read that. Read that to yourself and I will be

11 asking you. And for the record let me read it.

12 It says: "I think if we want to take over the enclaves of Zepa

13 and Gorazde in the same way, it will be necessary to present the operation

14 in Srebrenica in the media, so as to show that we had rendered adequate

15 treatment to the civilians, and even to soldiers who surrendered their

16 weapons."

17 Do you see that, sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you characterise the treatment of civilians while you were

20 there in front of Colonel Jankovic to have been adequate?

21 A. Yes, certainly as far as he was concerned, yes.

22 Q. And in looking at this, can you draw any conclusions as to whether

23 Colonel Jankovic himself as of 0030 hours into 14 July 1995 was aware of

24 what was to happen to any men?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Shin.

Page 9821

1 MR. SHIN: Mr. President, he's asking the witness for a

2 conclusion, and we would submit that that's not appropriate.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think we could arrive at certain

4 conclusions when we read this paragraph at a later stage.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Very well, Your Honour. I just have a

6 couple more questions.

7 Q. When you were in Potocari, did you notice whether any food and

8 water was being distributed to the civilian population that was there?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Was any food distributed to you? Were you able to get some of

11 that bread and canned goods and water that was being offered?

12 A. We tried, but we didn't get anything. Food was being distributed

13 by the quartermasters of our brigade. They had the same type of vehicle,

14 a TAM. There was a lot of bread slices that were cut into four pieces,

15 and there was pate in tins. They took this to the buses and to the people

16 who were behind their backs in the yard, because they were standing in the

17 street on the road. We reacted at one moment, asking them to give us

18 some, too. Even the specialists asked for food; however, they refused.

19 They said that the orders were that the food was only for the people who

20 were being transported. Before that, I noticed General Mladic near them,

21 too. I did not hear what he was saying, but I did see that he was yelling

22 at them trying to explain something with his hands and arms, probably

23 directing them to do this or that, but I don't know. I'm not sure. They

24 said that they had received orders to the effect that the food was only

25 for them, so it was my assumption that this was his order.

Page 9822

1 Q. All right. And just finally, you told us that on the 14th in the

2 afternoon you reported. That's when you saw, I believe, Mr. Petrovic.

3 And after that --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. After that day, did you go right back to work?

6 A. No. As I have already said, some people would stay to provide

7 security for the building and the rest of us were off and we could go and

8 get some rest.

9 Q. All right. And I take it you were off?

10 A. Yes. I left, although even before I came there I had health

11 problems. After that, due to exhaustion, my fluid levels went down. I

12 cannot claim whether it was on the 15th or on the 16th that I reported at

13 the Bratunac clinic, and that's where I was treated. I'm just not sure of

14 the day, whether it was the 15th or the 16th. I was at home, and then I

15 got these infusions or whatever.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you very, very much, sir. I have no further

17 questions. Perhaps Mr. Stojanovic, who represents Mr. Jokic, may have

18 some questions. I'm sure the Prosecutor will, and perhaps even the

19 Judges. I want to thank you for being frank and complete with me. And if

20 you could be as equally frank and complete with them, I would most

21 appreciate it. Thank you very much.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I have no further direct.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to this witness?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Janjic.

Page 9823

1 Good afternoon, Your Honours. In view of everything he said in

2 the cross-examination today, we do not have any questions for this

3 witness.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

5 Well, it's time for the break. Witness, as I said to all the

6 witnesses before, that during your stay in The Hague you can still under

7 oath, so do not talk to anybody and do not let anybody talk to you about

8 your testimony. We will continue tomorrow. Do you understand that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

11 The hearing for today is adjourned.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

13 at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

14 the 25th day of May, 2004,

15 at 9.00 a.m.