Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9917

1 Wednesday, 26 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Before we hear the witness, are there any matters that the parties

10 would like to raise? Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. I wanted to go on record

12 in public about a couple of matters that occurred yesterday, because I

13 think the record needs to be clear and I think that perhaps some sanctions

14 need to be considered.

15 The Prosecutor yesterday, Mr. McCloskey himself, stood up and

16 said - and I'm reading from the transcript, this is in regards to new

17 evidence that they have that he talks about - "one example is I believe

18 you acquitted on is the issue of the people who were in the interrogation

19 notes that were found with Resid Sinanovic. We now have, courtesy of the

20 Defence, seen the lawyer, those notes and has actually interviewed those

21 people in front of the brigade command, and they are also on the missing

22 list."

23 I want to point out that Mr. Zlatan Celanovic was interviewed by

24 the Prosecution on 4 December 2003. He provided some notes. He was then

25 interviewed on December 10, 2003. The Prosecution closed its case on 27

Page 9918

1 February 2004. They had all that information. They chose not to put it

2 in their case because, I dare say, they had concluded that it had no real

3 value as to that particular issue. And now it would appear - and this is

4 the second time that a remark such as this was made, and I will get to the

5 reasons as to the motivations behind the remark - but it would appear that

6 Mr. McCloskey was being utterly dishonest with this Trial Chamber. And

7 I'm using -- I'm choosing my words very carefully. Normally I would call

8 him something other than that, much stronger, much more closer to the

9 bone, and closer to what actually he is doing.

10 Secondly, yesterday he indicated that now we know that some 50

11 bodies in each classroom at the Vuk Karadzic have been discovered,

12 courtesy of the Defence of course. And if we look at the record, first of

13 all, there is no such thing, there is no such testimony that 50 bodies in

14 each classroom at the Vuk Karadzic school were found. Second of all, the

15 individual that was brought here by the Defence to present that testimony,

16 aside from the fact that he was never a member of the Bratunac Brigade,

17 but that individual who testified in open court, Dragan Mirkovic, was

18 initially interviewed by the Office of the Prosecution on 13 October 2000.

19 He testified on 21st April 2004. Of course that was well in advance of

20 the Prosecution to file for an appeal to the judgement of acquittal, which

21 it now seeks to reverse or put in abeyance something that is not called

22 for in the rules, nor does it can exist in the Anglo-Saxon system once a

23 judgement is entered.

24 Now, I'm mentioning this because I think these sorts of dishonest

25 statements do not belong in this Tribunal. Secondly, when we look at the

Page 9919

1 comments by Mr. McCloskey, it appears they are designed for another

2 purpose, and the purpose is to interfere with the attorney/client

3 relationship. Albeit that relationship is strained, I think that's what

4 is designed to suggest that the Defence is now putting on evidence that is

5 harmful to the client is solely designed for that purpose. I frankly do

6 not mind and indeed welcome vigorous advocacy. I think that's what an

7 adversarial procedure should be. I don't appreciate dishonesty in the

8 Court, especially when it comes from an officer of the Court; and I think

9 the United Nations deserves something better than that.

10 So I want the record to be clear, first of all they had that

11 information. Nothing was disclosed by the Defence that they didn't have.

12 They made some tactical decisions. Secondly, the record as they stated it

13 to be is false, and that was an intentional falsehood. And I suggest,

14 Your Honour, that perhaps some cautionary instructions should be issued to

15 the Prosecutor. If he wishes to take personal shots at me, I don't care.

16 After 20 years, I've developed a rather thick skin. But I do take offence

17 to when somebody is manipulating the facts and being dishonest with the

18 Trial Chamber for the sole purpose of trying to salvage a case,

19 particularly as we have seen in this one, where the Prosecution in

20 essence, in my humble opinion has turned incompetence into an art form

21 when it has come to investigating their case, and even presenting their

22 case.

23 That's all I have on this matter, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Karnavas. I think it's a

25 very serious allegation you put on the record. And we should hear the

Page 9920

1 other side on this very issue. And everybody will have an opportunity to

2 present their view.

3 Yes. I see Mr. McCloskey is standing. Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: That perhaps is the single most outrageous comment

5 I have ever heard a lawyer utter in court. And I will refrain from going

6 through his history or anything else related towards him. But I will talk

7 to you of some of the substance of what he said. Yes, Mr. Celanovic was

8 interviewed by us and, yes, we had that information. There's no doubt

9 about that; that's not hidden. However, we chose to get that information

10 related to those other witnesses, those other Muslims, that were

11 interviewed in the same notes as Resid Sinanovic, we chose to bring that

12 information in through Mr. Butler and Mr. Butler's report where he talks

13 about all of those notes being found at the security office and that all

14 of the people on those notes to be on the missing list. And we used the

15 evidence related to Resid Sinanovic that we had from (redacted) - I

16 think (redacted), and Momir Nikolic to be the representative sample of those

17 people. And as such we didn't feel it necessary to bring in

18 Mr. Celanovic, who, as you saw it, was an extremely adverse hostile

19 witness to the Prosecution, to prove something we'd felt we had already

20 proven.

21 Now, as it turns out when we offered those notes into evidence,

22 the Court did not accept them because Mr. Butler didn't speak directly to

23 them, so the Court decided to set them aside in their 98 bis ruling, all

24 perfectly understandable. My understanding was those things were set

25 aside by the Court in an understandable situation where we didn't get all

Page 9921

1 the evidence we chose to get in. Then Mr. Karnavas called Mr. Celanovic

2 up there, so all that material became again authenticated specifically by

3 the person that did the interviews, so all that material comes in. That

4 is just one example of several key pits of evidence that has been provided

5 by the Defence case in our case. And this happens in most cases. This is

6 not some personal attack on Mr. Karnavas. The Bosanski Samac case, they

7 put on 99 witnesses. If you look at the judgement, you'll, I think, see

8 the Court naturally found Prosecution evidence in some of those 99

9 witnesses; it's inevitable. This is what I was talking about. And we

10 will see many, many more examples. It's frankly shocking to me that the

11 extent of the evidence that's coming on through the Defence case.

12 The first example we saw was when Mr. Karnavas provided Mile

13 Petrovic to back up Momir Nikolic's story of travelling along the road,

14 calling down witness -- calling down Muslims. That was an uncorroborated

15 Momir Nikolic story until Mile Petrovic showed up on the scene. So this

16 is something that is part of his strategy and it's -- it's a fine strategy

17 from his perspective, I'm sure. But we see witness after witness that

18 helps provide us -- provide evidence for us, and that's all I was pointing

19 out. Because we're getting more evidence, and then of course Witness 130

20 is added to that.

21 Now, the witness regarding the 50 bodies is -- well, I think it

22 was a protected witness, but it was -- if you recall, it was 50 -- he

23 received reports of 50 bodies, and he stated that there was body -- he had

24 heard reports that there was bodies in every classroom on each floor of

25 that building, not 50 bodies in each classroom. I don't think I said

Page 9922

1 that, and if I did, that was a mistake. So these two examples of this

2 incredible allegation amount to nothing. And I understand there's a

3 sensitivity in the client situation here, and I have tried to stay away

4 from that as much as I could. And I have instructed my people to ignore

5 the constant personal attacks on each of them, which if you may remember

6 began with Stacey de la Torre and her wonderful response that was not

7 going to respond to these childish barbs.

8 Well, I don't think I need to respond any further. I think this

9 Court knows what's going on here, and I think -- I hope the Court will

10 keep in mind the ethical rules of this Tribunal. And I know they do. And

11 I meant to memorise the ethical code that speaks of dealing with each

12 other and each colleagues, and I don't remember it right now. But as I

13 say, this is something that I have never seen in my life; I hope to never

14 see it again.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

16 Well --

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I stand by my comments, Your Honour. I just stand

18 by my comments and my interpretation of what he said yesterday with

19 respect to this new-founded evidence. They had all of this evidence, and

20 now we're hearing a different tune being sung to that.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. I believe that in this

22 trial we spend much more time on the relationship between the parties. It

23 seems to me there is a tense relationship. And sometimes it comes to the

24 personal attacks which this Court would not like to see. The time and the

25 resources allocated to this case are very limited, so have to make the

Page 9923

1 best use of it and spend much more time hearing the witness rather than

2 the parties.

3 So I hope that in the future the parties could talk to each other

4 out of court first. If there are some differences - of course there

5 should be some differences between the parties - that could not be solved

6 and it's very serious, you could bring to the attention of this Bench and

7 we'll see what we shall do. Now we are in the middle of these

8 proceedings; it's very difficult at this stage for us to make any rulings

9 in this direction. I hope that at the end of this trial we'll see a more

10 clear picture on all the things the parties raised today. This is all I

11 could say at this moment.

12 Is there anything else?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: There's one other matter --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: -- with respect to not this witness but the

16 following witness. If we could go to closed session.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session you mean?

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, private session.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, private session, please.

20 [Private session]

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 9924












12 Page 9924 redacted private session.














Page 9925

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

19 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

25 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

Page 9926

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

2 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

3 Q. Good morning, sir.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. Now, I will need you to speak up just a little bit. You don't

6 have to lean forward, but you need to raise your voice just a little bit.

7 Could you please tell us your name, sir.

8 A. My name is Borivoje Jakovljevic.

9 Q. And could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.

10 A. J-a-k-o-v-l-j-e-v-i-c.

11 Q. Thank you. And, sir, where are you from?

12 A. From Bratunac.

13 Q. And where did you grow up?

14 A. In Bratunac.

15 Q. Would you please tell us what you do today for a living.

16 A. I own a minifarm, a small farm.

17 Q. All right. Now, in 1995, in July, were you a member of the

18 Bratunac Brigade?

19 A. I was.

20 Q. Could you please tell us what your position was with the

21 Bratunac Brigade, or within the Bratunac Brigade I should say.

22 A. I was a soldier in the military police.

23 Q. Could you please tell us how long you had been with the

24 Bratunac Brigade military police.

25 A. From the spring of 1994.

Page 9927

1 Q. Now, before becoming a military police officer with the

2 Bratunac Brigade, did you have any background or training in being a

3 military police, policeman I should say?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, did you do your JNA training when you were younger?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Now, when was that?

8 A. In 1980 to 1981.

9 Q. And while you were in the JNA, could you please tell us what

10 training you received.

11 A. I was trained for work in the military police.

12 Q. All right. So while you were trained -- when you said no,

13 earlier, I take it that was with relation to the Bratunac Brigade?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, after you completed your military service, were you in the

16 reserves as part of the All People's Defence?

17 A. I was a member of the reserve force of the civilian police.

18 Q. Okay. And prior to the commencement of the war, that is, from the

19 time that you left your JNA service until 1992, could you please tell us

20 what you were doing for a living.

21 A. I was employed in a local firm, working on the maintenance of

22 electrical machinery.

23 Q. Were you mobilised in 1992 in the Territorial Defence, the TO,

24 when the war broke out?

25 A. I was first mobilised to the reserve force of the civilian police.

Page 9928

1 And later I left them and joined the detachment that it was first known

2 as, and later the Bratunac Brigade.

3 Q. When you joined the Bratunac Brigade, in what capacity or what

4 function did you carry out?

5 A. I was a private.

6 Q. In which company or battalion?

7 A. The 3rd Battalion, an infantry battalion.

8 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention from now on to the events

9 surrounding the -- Srebrenica, the events concerning Srebrenica. That

10 would be in July 1995 and thereafter. And I'm going to give you two dates

11 for points of reference, one being July 6th, which is a fixed date that we

12 know when the events commenced towards Srebrenica, and then July 11th, the

13 date when Srebrenica actually fell.

14 So first of all, could you please tell us whether you had received

15 any special instructions or special orders prior to July 6th, 1995.

16 A. Nothing in particular.

17 Q. Could you please tell us, at about that time, what were your

18 normal duties, what were you carrying out, if you recall.

19 A. The most frequent activities we engaged in at that time were to

20 secure roads between Bratunac, Sase, and Pribicevac.

21 Q. What other duties did you have in addition to those, or functions

22 I should say?

23 A. Normal, ordinary duties and functions, to sanction disciplinary

24 offences when soldiers left their positions on the front, and things like

25 that. And to bring them back to their positions.

Page 9929

1 Q. All right. Now, we have heard testimony in this court that on

2 occasion military police could be used for combat. Do you recall whether

3 during the events concerning Srebrenica, that would be from July 6th and

4 onwards, whether you or other members of the Bratunac Brigade military

5 police were engaged in any military activities?

6 A. During that month, no.

7 Q. Now, did anything unusual happen from July 6th to July 11th, that

8 period that I've indicated, the commencement to the fall of Srebrenica?

9 Anything unusual that you recall.

10 A. Nothing unusual.

11 Q. Do you recall where you were on July 11th, 1995, that is the day

12 that Srebrenica fell?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you please tell us.

15 A. I was on the road, Bratunac/Sase/Pribicevac.

16 Q. How long had you been at that road?

17 A. I'm unable to tell you exactly, but we returned in the afternoon.

18 Now, what time it was, I don't know.

19 Q. Now, when you returned, could you please tell us where you went.

20 And I take it you returned back to Bratunac, that's what you're referring?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would you please tell us where you went first.

23 A. To the headquarters of the military police.

24 Q. Do you recall whether you received any orders upon your arrival

25 there?

Page 9930

1 A. Nothing in particular that I can recall.

2 Q. All right. So could you please tell us what you did the rest of

3 the afternoon or evening on the 11th of July, 1995.

4 A. In the evening we were deployed to Bratunac, the Fontana Hotel, to

5 provide security of the hotel.

6 Q. Do you recall who it was that deployed you -- that issued the

7 order for you and, I would gather from your answer, other military police

8 who were ordered to go to Hotel Fontana?

9 A. It was customary for orders to be passed on to the soldier on

10 duty. Now, in this particular case I can't remember who was the soldier

11 on duty. So that's how it was.

12 Q. Do you recall whether you saw Momir Nikolic?

13 A. I don't recall.

14 Q. You do know who Momir Nikolic is, though?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Now, could you please tell us about what time it was when you went

17 to Hotel Fontana.

18 A. It was in the evening.

19 Q. Would you please tell us when you arrived there what instructions,

20 if any, you received and from whom.

21 A. I don't remember from whom I received instructions. There were

22 several of us. The outside security of the hotel, nothing more than that,

23 more specific than that. We were told to secure the hotel on the outside.

24 Q. Would you please tell us what exactly you did and for how long.

25 A. I can't tell you anything in particular. As far as I can remember

Page 9931

1 it was the normal physical security of the hotel that we were providing

2 and of the People's University, as it is right next to the hotel. Now, I

3 am not quite sure whether it was that same evening or the next day that I

4 spent some time with members of the Dutch Battalion in the secondary

5 school centre. Now, whether that was that same evening or the following

6 evening, I can't remember.

7 Q. Now, what were the Dutch Battalion or members of the Dutch

8 Battalion doing in the secondary school in the centre of Bratunac?

9 A. They were accommodated there. There's an amphitheatre there.

10 They were sittings, sleeping, resting.

11 Q. All right. Now, do you recall about -- first of all, were there

12 any incidents that night that you recall?

13 A. No, I don't recall any.

14 Q. Do you recall about what time you completed your duty there?

15 A. I was there all night.

16 Q. And when the morning came, what did you do?

17 A. I went to have breakfast in the restaurant where we regularly had

18 our meals.

19 Q. That would be where?

20 A. In the command building next to the command of the military

21 police.

22 Q. After having your breakfast, did you receive any other orders?

23 A. Nothing special, just to go back to where we had been before, that

24 is, around the Fontana Hotel.

25 Q. Do you know how many of you received that order?

Page 9932

1 A. I can't tell you. I don't remember.

2 Q. Do you recall about what time it would have been - and now we're

3 speaking of July 12, 1995 - what time it would have been that you returned

4 to the Hotel Fontana?

5 A. After breakfast, I don't know exactly. Anyway, it was in the

6 morning.

7 Q. Well, when you went there, could you please tell us to whom you

8 reported, if anyone.

9 A. Before I arrived to the Fontana Hotel, about 50 metres from the

10 hotel a vehicle, a military vehicle, stopped. And they called me. I

11 recognised General Mladic.

12 Q. All right. Who called you?

13 A. Mladic himself.

14 Q. All right. And what kind of a mood was he in?

15 A. He was in a good mood.

16 Q. Okay. And did he have any instructions for you or did he say

17 anything to you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you like to share that with us?

20 A. Yes. He said: "When the transport starts from Potocari, I don't

21 want to see anyone on the street, no one. Do you understand me?"

22 Q. Did you understand what he was talking about when he said, "When

23 the transport starts from Potocari... " Did you understand what he was

24 referring to?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9933

1 Q. And how is it that you understand -- that you understood what he

2 was speaking about?

3 A. There were rumours already, and we saw buses that were ready,

4 buses and trucks. And the story was that people would be coming out of

5 Potocari, that is, the Muslims, the Muslim population.

6 Q. Had anyone said or had you heard as to where these buses and

7 trucks would be heading towards?

8 A. No one told me personally anything.

9 Q. So could you please tell us what you did after General Mladic gave

10 you those instructions.

11 A. Close to the hotel there is a junction, and I was there all the

12 time because that is where vehicles have to slow down and take a left,

13 turning towards Zvornik. So we spent most of our time there at that

14 crossroads.

15 Q. Now, you say "we," how many were there of you?

16 A. With me, there was another colleague of mine.

17 Q. Just one minor detail. When General Mladic gave you this order,

18 did you by any chance inform General Mladic that you needed to check with

19 your commander, or your komandir, to see whether you could carry out the

20 order that General Mladic was issuing to you?

21 A. No, no. I couldn't say that to him then; I didn't dare.

22 Q. Why not? He wasn't your commander.

23 A. Well, General Mladic, I had a lot of respect for him.

24 Q. All right. Well, did you contact Mirko Jankovic, your komandir;

25 or Momir Nikolic, the head of security and intelligence; or

Page 9934

1 Colonel Blagojevic, the commander of the Bratunac Brigade, to inform them,

2 any of them, what you were carrying out, what orders you were carrying

3 out?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Now, how long were you at that juncture?

6 A. I don't remember how long, but throughout the day while the

7 transport was going on.

8 Q. Were you able to see who was in the buses and trucks? Were you

9 paying attention?

10 A. Yes, at the beginning.

11 Q. And could you please tell us what you noticed.

12 A. I noticed that there were mostly women and children and elderly,

13 and they were few, few elderly men. Later on, I didn't pay any more

14 attention because I was busy dealing with our own local civilians.

15 Q. What do you mean by that?

16 A. Curiosity of our locals. We had to move them away from the

17 street.

18 Q. While you were there, did you notice any incidents, anyone

19 reacting toward the buses and trucks?

20 A. No. They didn't have a chance because we kept them away.

21 Q. Now, you indicated that they were -- once they would make that

22 turn, they would head in the direction towards Zvornik. Did you notice

23 whether any of those buses or trucks at any point in time during the day

24 made any turns into the city centre?

25 A. No. I didn't notice anything like that.

Page 9935

1 Q. All right. Now, after the -- at what point do you recall was it

2 when you left that location?

3 A. In the afternoon.

4 Q. Where did you go from there?

5 A. Back to the command, to have dinner.

6 Q. All right. Now, did anyone give you permission or did you seek

7 permission from anyone to leave your post to go to the brigade command in

8 order to have dinner?

9 A. No, no. Because I saw that the transport was completed, I stayed

10 on for a while and then I returned. And it was getting dark.

11 Q. After having dinner, do you recall whether you received any other

12 orders for that evening? And now we're speaking of the evening of July

13 12th, 1995.

14 A. Nothing in particular. I was informed that we were going back to

15 the Fontana Hotel.

16 Q. And did you go back to the Hotel Fontana?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. Would you please tell us what the lighting conditions were when

19 you arrived back at the Hotel Fontana, so at least we can have some sort

20 of an opinion as to what time --

21 A. It was evening already.

22 Q. All right. Would you please tell us whether you reported to

23 anyone once you arrived at Hotel Fontana.

24 A. Nothing specific. I found my colleagues there. We made a

25 timetable. I don't remember if there were any commanders around. We made

Page 9936

1 a timetable as to who would be inside, who would be outside from what time

2 to what time.

3 Q. On this night, the night of July 12th, 1995, did you spend the

4 entire night outside, as you had the previous night?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Would you please tell us how you spent the night and where.

7 A. I spent half that night outside, and from midnight onwards I was

8 in the hallway where the rooms are. General Mladic slept in one of those

9 rooms.

10 Q. How do you know that he was in one of those rooms?

11 A. The shift before me told me.

12 Q. Did General Mladic get out -- go out of his room during the night

13 while you were there guarding the hallway?

14 A. No. No, not until the morning.

15 Q. Did you see General Mladic in the morning?

16 A. Yes, in the morning.

17 Q. And now we're speaking about the morning of July 13, 1995.

18 Correct?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. Would you please tell us about what time it would have been when

21 you saw him.

22 A. 7.00, 7.30.

23 Q. Did you speak to him or did he speak to you?

24 A. He addressed us first.

25 Q. Okay. And could you please tell us what exactly he said.

Page 9937

1 A. He greeted us and asked us to find him a shaving kit.

2 Q. Okay. And did you?

3 A. I didn't hear that.

4 Q. Okay. And did you?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Now, did you have anymore words with General Mladic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. After that, do you recall what you did the morning of the 13th?

9 A. The usual. I went to have breakfast and went back to the road to

10 my place near the junction.

11 Q. Okay. The same place where you had been the previous day, July

12 12?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. Could you please tell us whether someone had ordered you to return

15 or whether this was on your own initiative.

16 A. Nobody ordered me to do so. I suppose my superiors knew about the

17 duties given me by Mladic, and nobody asked me anything. I just did the

18 job.

19 Q. All right. Could you please tell us how long you were there that

20 day.

21 A. I couldn't say exactly, maybe until the afternoon. I don't know

22 until what time. It was past 12.00.

23 Q. All right. And then what happened?

24 A. I don't know what time it was, but it was already afternoon.

25 General Mladic came by again, accompanied by my colleagues.

Page 9938

1 Q. All right. And -- well, how was he -- in what sort of vehicle did

2 he come by?

3 A. A vehicle that we referred to as P-U-H, PUH. It was a military

4 vehicle.

5 Q. And where were you colleagues located?

6 A. Another military vehicle called Pinzgauer.

7 Q. Could you please tell us how many colleagues were there with the

8 general.

9 A. I could not tell you that. I don't remember.

10 Q. All right. Now, do you recall who the other -- who the colleagues

11 were? Do you recall any of them, their names? I know it's been almost 10

12 years.

13 A. The driver was Milovan Mitrovic. I remember another one of our

14 colleagues, Slobodan Mijatovic. And I also remember another man, Bosko,

15 whose last name I don't recall.

16 Q. All right. Now, did the general stop or did you just notice him

17 driving by?

18 A. He stopped.

19 Q. All right. And did he say anything?

20 A. He didn't say anything to us.

21 Q. All right. What did you do?

22 A. We stood there for some time -- I don't remember. I got orders to

23 get into the vehicle together with them. I don't remember who conveyed

24 that order to me.

25 Q. All right. You don't whether it was Mladic or one of your

Page 9939

1 colleagues or someone else?

2 A. It wasn't Mladic; it was one of my colleagues.

3 Q. Okay. And did you get into the Pinzgauer?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, could you please tell us where you went from there.

6 A. A bit later we moved on, first General Mladic's vehicle then our

7 vehicle, towards Kravica, Kravica village.

8 Q. So if I understand you correctly, the Pinzgauer was behind the

9 vehicle that General Mladic was in?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. And when you got to Kravica did the -- do you recall

12 whether there were any stops in that location, at or near Kravica?

13 A. Not in Kravica, the first village after Kravica.

14 Q. And do you know what the name of that village is?

15 A. Yes, Sandici.

16 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us what you saw when you stopped

17 at Sandici.

18 A. Yes, we saw soldiers. The soldiers were standing in the street

19 and around, and the prisoners.

20 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us first of all, the soldiers, did

21 you recognise them?

22 A. No, I didn't know them. They were not troops from the

23 Bratunac Brigade.

24 Q. How do you know that?

25 A. By their uniforms. And then I didn't recognise any of the

Page 9940

1 commanding officers, in fact, I didn't recognise the commanding officer

2 who addressed Mladic at that point; whereas, I knew all the commanding

3 officers of the Bratunac Brigade.

4 Q. All right. Now, before we get to what you saw with respect to

5 General Mladic, could you please tell us approximately how many Muslim

6 prisoners you noticed.

7 A. I would not like to guess, and I cannot tell you precisely.

8 Q. Could you please tell us where they were located.

9 A. On the right-hand side of the street in a meadow. They were

10 sitting in that meadow.

11 Q. Now, you said "the right-hand side of the street," in which

12 direction are we talking, heading -- going towards Konjevic Polje or going

13 towards Bratunac?

14 A. Towards Konjevic Polje.

15 Q. Okay. Now, did you get out of the vehicle when General Mladic got

16 out of his?

17 A. No, not then.

18 Q. At some point at that location did you get out?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. Okay. Do you recall approximately how far you were from

21 General Mladic.

22 A. About 20 metres.

23 Q. Okay. Were you paying attention as to what was going on, or were

24 you lost in your thoughts?

25 A. I didn't hear what General Mladic discussed with the officer in

Page 9941

1 charge of those troops.

2 Q. Okay. Go ahead, I'm sorry.

3 A. But I did hear when General Mladic addressed the prisoners, he was

4 speaking in a loud voice. And I understood the main drift of what he was

5 saying. I don't remember it word for word, but I remember the essence.

6 Q. Okay. First of all, and I want to go step by step, when the cars,

7 the vehicles I should say, stopped in Sandici, who -- General Mladic got

8 out of his vehicle, as I understand you. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, would you please tell us what exactly he did once he got out

11 of his vehicle. What did he do?

12 A. First he was looking for the commander in charge of those troops.

13 Q. All right. Did he find the person?

14 A. That officer came up to him.

15 Q. All right. How long did General Mladic speak with this officer?

16 A. Very briefly.

17 Q. Now, we're referring to this individual as an officer. Do you

18 know whether he had a rank, or this an assumption on your part that since

19 he was a komandir, a commanding officer, that it would logically follow

20 that he was, in fact, an officer?

21 A. I saw by his insignia that he was an officer. I just didn't know

22 the rank.

23 Q. All right. After General Mladic briefly spoke with this

24 individual, could you please tell us what did General Mladic do next, if

25 anything.

Page 9942

1 A. Well, he approached the prisoners.

2 Q. Could you please tell us: How close was General Mladic to the

3 prisoners when he was speaking to this officer?

4 A. He was maybe 20 metres away from them, maybe more.

5 Q. How far was General Mladic from the prisoners when he was

6 addressing the prisoners?

7 A. He was right by them.

8 Q. What kind of a mood was General Mladic in?

9 A. In my judgement, a good mood.

10 Q. And how did he address these prisoners, in what tone of voice, in

11 what manner?

12 A. First he introduced himself.

13 Q. All right. Did he insult them?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. Was he yelling at these prisoners?

16 A. No. He informed them that they -- their families were taken care

17 of and that there were no problems. He asked them to be patient because

18 it was a very hot day. He asked them to be patient, that everything would

19 be fine. Something like that.

20 Q. Do you recall for how long General Mladic addressed this group of

21 prisoners?

22 A. He talked with them for a while, and at the end he asked if

23 anybody had any special needs. It could have been 20 minutes; I can't be

24 precise.

25 Q. When General Mladic inquired whether any of them had any special

Page 9943

1 needs, did any of the prisoners speak up?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall whether you were able to hear what, if any, special

4 needs were being noted by these prisoners to General Mladic?

5 A. I don't remember. I didn't hear the prisoners speaking, because

6 they spoke in a not-so-loud voice.

7 Q. All right. Now, during this period did you notice whether any

8 other Muslim males were coming and surrendering themselves?

9 A. Yes, I saw that.

10 Q. Do you recall approximately how many there were?

11 A. I can't tell you anything specific. A group came up carrying a

12 seriously wounded soldier of theirs. I noticed one or two maybe who were

13 less seriously wounded in the same group, because they were passing by the

14 vehicle in which I was and laid him down. They laid him down, this

15 wounded person. There was nothing going on, no shooting, nothing that I

16 could hear. So I asked them what had happened and they said when they had

17 been up there in the forest they had two options. One option was to

18 surrender, and there was a group among them who was in favour of that; and

19 another group was against it. And they clashed amongst themselves. And

20 some shooting started even. That's how it happened, and they were looking

21 for a doctor. There was no doctor around.

22 One of my colleagues gave them a first aid kit, bandages, and they

23 bandaged him, but that was not enough. So I gave them mine, because that

24 person was very seriously wounded.

25 Q. All right. Now, you said earlier that when you were there you did

Page 9944

1 not hear any shooting going on. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. All right. Did you hear any artillery, shelling, from further

4 distances?

5 A. Yes. I understand. There was nothing that you could hear.

6 Everything was quiet.

7 Q. Okay. Approximately how long were you there with General Mladic

8 in Sandici?

9 A. I cannot tell you exactly. Maybe 30, 40 minutes.

10 Q. And one last question before we move on. When you heard

11 General Mladic speaking to the Muslim prisoners, telling them that they

12 didn't need to worry about anything, that they would be joining their

13 families, did you believe General Mladic?

14 A. Why wouldn't I?

15 Q. Prior to that had you heard, either from General Mladic or anyone

16 else, that there had been some plan put in motion to execute any Muslim

17 that the Serb army could get their hands on?

18 A. No. There was no discussion about that.

19 Q. All right. Now, after Sandici, could you please tell us where did

20 you go?

21 A. In the same direction, towards Konjevic Polje.

22 Q. Could you please tell us where the next stop was.

23 A. We stopped very briefly at the junction in Konjevic Polje.

24 Q. And what was the purpose for that stop, do you know?

25 A. There was a checkpoint held by the civilian police.

Page 9945

1 Q. Did you notice there at that juncture whether there were any

2 military police of the Bratunac Brigade there?

3 A. No, I didn't see any of them.

4 Q. Did you notice whether there were any soldiers of the

5 Bratunac Brigade, that is, individuals that you would recognise by face

6 and perhaps even by uniform to be soldiers of the Bratunac Brigade?

7 A. No, I did not see anyone from the Bratunac Brigade.

8 Q. How long did you remain at Konjevic Polje, at this juncture?

9 A. Very briefly.

10 Q. Okay. Well, that's sort of relative. Minute-wise, could you tell

11 us what do you mean by "very briefly"?

12 A. Very briefly. Mladic had a sudden change of mood. He cursed

13 those civilian policemen there, scolded them. I don't know for what

14 reason.

15 Q. Okay. Well, first of all do you recall whether General Mladic got

16 out of his vehicle this time, as he had done previously in Sandici?

17 A. I don't remember that.

18 Q. Do you recall whether you noticed any prisoners there, Muslim

19 prisoners, at that point in time when you were at that intersection with

20 General Mladic?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Now, earlier I asked you if you knew Momir Nikolic, as I

23 understand also goes by the nickname Penzijica. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You know him fairly well?

Page 9946

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I take it by that point in time had you seen him someplace, you

3 know, in the middle of the road standing there, dressed in his uniform

4 with his Ray Ban sunglasses, as was his style, you would have been able to

5 recognise him?

6 A. I would have been able to recognise, had I seen him, but I don't

7 remember having seen him.

8 Q. Okay. Well, that's what my question is. Because we've heard

9 testimony from Momir Nikolic, no less under oath, where he stated - and

10 this can be found on the record, for those who may wish to know, on page

11 1718, that is 1.718 here when his testimony was taken on Monday, 22nd

12 September 2003 - but he stated at that point in time, General Mladic was

13 out of the vehicle, he approached General Mladic to give some sort of a

14 report, that he was able to notice some prisoners, and that upon asking

15 General Mladic what the fate of the prisoners would be, General Mladic

16 made the hand gesture like this. And in fact, we can see that on the

17 video, on the video transcript of his testimony.

18 Sir, did you see Momir Nikolic approach General Mladic for

19 a -- what we could call a tete-a-tete for Momir Nikolic to give a report

20 to General Mladic at Konjevic Polje on 13 July 1995, as he would have us

21 believe?

22 A. I don't recall seeing Momir Nikolic there at that time.

23 Q. All right. And just for the record, and just so that we are

24 precise, before coming here today, sir, last night did I not show you in

25 your language the video clip, the video testimony, of Momir Nikolic

Page 9947

1 concerning this particular segment of his testimony under oath? Do you

2 recall seeing that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And do you recall his vivid description of the events as he

5 recalled them while under oath testifying on direct examination, being

6 questioned by the Prosecutor? Do you recall his description?

7 A. [No interpretation]

8 Q. And do you have an opinion as to whether Momir Nikolic, in light

9 of what you were able to see at the time and given the fact that you were

10 with General Mladic at the time, do you have an opinion as to whether was

11 testifying truthfully or untruthfully in this court?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I'm objecting to that question. The

14 witness can't comment on the veracity of another witness. That's totally

15 inappropriate.

16 JUDGE LIU: I agree. I agree.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please rephrase this question.


20 Q. Was Momir Nikolic's description accurate, that is, consistent with

21 reality, consistent with the facts as you know them to be?

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

23 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I believe the witness testified that he

24 couldn't remember whether Momir Nikolic was there, so I don't see how he

25 could ask that follow-up question.

Page 9948



3 Q. Sir, are you -- was Momir Nikolic there? Did you see him?

4 A. I did not see him.

5 Q. All right. And the testimony that you saw, the video clip that

6 you saw, in your opinion was that accurate or inaccurate?

7 A. To the best of my recollection, it was inaccurate.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now -- and just one final point. I want to

9 make sure. Did General Mladic get out of his vehicle in Konjevic Polje?

10 A. I don't remember that he got out of his vehicle.

11 Q. But you remember that he was scolding or yelling at the civilian

12 police?

13 A. Yes. Through the window of the vehicle.

14 Q. All right.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: I believe this may be a good time to break,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 We'll resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Karnavas.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

23 Q. Sir, I believe we left off when you were in Konjevic Polje with

24 General Mladic on July 13th, 1995. Could you please tell us: From there,

25 where did you go?

Page 9949

1 A. We set off towards Milici.

2 Q. All right. And did you make any stops?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please tell us where.

5 A. At a location before Milici called Kasaba.

6 Q. And could you please just tell us what the distance is from

7 Konjevic Polje to Kasaba.

8 A. I'm not quite sure, but under 10 kilometres.

9 Q. Could you please tell us what happened, if anything, when you

10 stopped at Kasaba.

11 A. Yes. The same scene was repeated as we had at Sandici.

12 Q. All right. I want to go step by step here again. Could you

13 please tell us first of all whether General Mladic got out of his vehicle.

14 A. Yes, he did.

15 Q. Do you recall whether you got out of the Pinzgauer.

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Now, do you recall -- you said it was the same as Sandici, so can

18 I conclude that there were prisoners there as well?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please tell us approximately how many prisoners there

21 were.

22 A. I'd rather not make any estimates because I'm absolutely not sure.

23 I can't even approximate the number.

24 Q. Did it look like a large group? More than 10 -- or a small group,

25 10 or 20?

Page 9950

1 A. Somewhat more than that.

2 Q. Okay. Do you recall where they were exactly, the location?

3 A. They were sitting on the grass in the football stadium.

4 Q. Now, as you drive towards Milici and you go by Kasaba, are you

5 able to see the football stadium from the road itself?

6 A. Yes, you are.

7 Q. Now, could you please tell us whether anyone was guarding the

8 Muslim prisoners there.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And could you please tell us who they were, if you know.

11 A. Soldiers I did not know. I didn't recognise anyone -- any of

12 them.

13 Q. You were able to tell us that at Sandici you were able to notice

14 that the soldiers there were not from the Bratunac Brigade, their

15 uniforms, and also you indicated that they had some sort of insignia. Do

16 you recall whether the soldiers at Kasaba had the same sort of uniforms

17 and the same insignia on them?

18 A. I don't remember about the insignia, but the uniforms were

19 similar.

20 Q. One more question about this. Do you know whether they were

21 soldiers, military police, or special police, if you know?

22 A. There were some special police, but not military police.

23 Q. All right. How did you know that there were some military police

24 there -- I mean, some special police?

25 A. They had blue uniforms on them, some sort of combination of blue

Page 9951

1 uniforms.

2 Q. Did you notice whether there were any officers there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did you notice who they were -- well, let me rephrase. Did

5 you know who they were?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. Do you know who was the komandir, the commanding officer, of the

8 unit of those soldiers that were there?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Do you know where the special police was from, which unit?

11 A. I don't know that either.

12 Q. Did you notice whether there were any dogs there, the police dogs

13 I'm referring to, German shepherd-type?

14 A. I'm not sure.

15 Q. Could you please tell us how long you were at this location.

16 A. Again, 30 or 40 minutes or so.

17 Q. Would that have been about the same amount of time as you and the

18 others, along with General Mladic, had spent in Sandici?

19 A. Yes, roughly.

20 Q. Now, could you please tell us how close you were to General Mladic

21 when you exited the Pinzgauer.

22 A. We were close, maybe 5 metres between us.

23 Q. And what were you doing?

24 A. We were standing there.

25 Q. Well, was there a particular purpose for getting out of the

Page 9952

1 Pinzgauer and coming within a 5-metre radius of General Mladic?

2 A. No special reason. Only in this case the stadium was further away

3 from the road.

4 Q. Okay. Now, could you please describe to us what exactly

5 General Mladic did.

6 A. He did the same as he did at Sandici, he called on the officer in

7 command, he exchanged just a few words with him hastily, and then he

8 approached the prisoners.

9 Q. All right. Well, first of all were you able to hear this time,

10 since you were out of the Pinzgauer and closer to General Mladic, were you

11 able to hear what the exchange was between General Mladic and the officer

12 of these soldiers?

13 A. I didn't hear anything. They just exchanged a couple of words

14 very quickly.

15 Q. How close were the prisoners at this point in time?

16 A. Mladic walked in amongst them.

17 Q. And what did you do when Mladic walked amongst them?

18 A. We were standing there. This was on the edge of the pitch.

19 Mladic went in deeper, and we were standing behind his back outside the

20 pitch, on the edge.

21 Q. All right. Did Mladic have his special protection unit, his own

22 security that he normally travelled with?

23 A. While he was with us, he only had one man who was next to him

24 nonstop.

25 Q. All right. Now, from where Mladic was standing, were you able to

Page 9953

1 hear what he was saying this time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you please describe to us what you heard.

4 A. First of all he greeted them. He asked them: "Do you know who I

5 am?" Later he introduced himself. And in principle, he repeated what he

6 had said at Sandici. He stayed a little longer -- actually, he devoted a

7 little more time on the question of whether anyone had anything in

8 particular to say. As there were quite a number of those who had some

9 special requests, he called on the officer and he told him -- I don't

10 remember how he addressed him, what rank he used, but he said: "Look into

11 this and deal with it together with the people in question."

12 Q. All right. Did General Mladic's mood change from the previous

13 time when he had stopped in Sandici?

14 A. No. He used the same tone of voice and he spoke in the same

15 manner.

16 Q. Well, was he abusive in any way toward the prisoners in Kasaba?

17 A. No, he didn't insult them.

18 Q. While you were there, were you able to hear any military activity,

19 ongoing military activities, such as shooting or shelling?

20 A. No, no. I don't remember hearing anything. It was quiet.

21 Q. Do you recall whether you noticed anyone surrendering while you

22 were in Kasaba, as you had seen, for instance, in Sandici?

23 A. Yes. People were approaching quite freely. They were searched at

24 the entrance to the playground, and then they sat down. But there were

25 fewer than there were at Sandici.

Page 9954

1 Q. All right. Do you know where they were coming from, these folks

2 that were surrendering themselves?

3 A. As the pitch is on the right-hand side of the road, I noticed one

4 or two coming from the woods on the left-hand side of the road.

5 Q. Were they being escorted or were they coming on their own, if you

6 recall?

7 A. On their own. They didn't have anyone escorting them.

8 Q. All right. Now, from Kasaba where did you go?

9 A. Towards Vlasenica.

10 Q. How far is Vlasenica from Kasaba?

11 A. Perhaps some 20-odd kilometres.

12 Q. All right. Could you please tell us where exactly you went in

13 Vlasenica.

14 A. We arrived in front of the building of the main headquarters of

15 the Drina Corps.

16 Q. When you arrived there, could you please tell us what, if

17 anything, did you do.

18 A. We got out of the vehicle to rest for a while, and we were invited

19 to dinner because it was evening already.

20 Q. All right. Were you given any orders while you were there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you recall about what time this would have been?

23 A. Early evening, the evening. I can't tell you exactly.

24 Q. Would you please tell us how long you were in Vlasenica.

25 A. We spent a little more time there.

Page 9955

1 Q. Well, that's rather relative. We know that you spent by your

2 estimation 30 to 40 minutes in Sandici and at Kasaba. Would that have

3 been about the same amount of time or more?

4 A. A bit more.

5 Q. All right. Now, where exactly were you invited to eat?

6 A. In the restaurant there, inside the building.

7 Q. While you were eating at the restaurant, did you notice whether

8 there were any other officers, VRS officers, be they from the Main Staff,

9 the Drina Corps, the Bratunac Brigade, or any other brigade for that

10 matter?

11 A. I didn't notice anyone from the Bratunac Brigade. I noticed

12 officers, but I don't know where they were serving. They were hurrying to

13 go to a meeting. It was my understanding that they were going to a

14 conference room; that was what they talked about amongst themselves.

15 Q. Now, did -- was General Mladic in the restaurant while you were

16 there eating?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you know at that point in time General Krstic?

19 A. I did see General Krstic on the 11th and 12th, but only in

20 passing, only then.

21 Q. Did you see him in Vlasenica, in the restaurant, while you were

22 there resting and eating?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you invited while you were in Vlasenica to attend any

25 meetings that might have been held?

Page 9956

1 A. No.

2 Q. Now, where did you go from Vlasenica?

3 A. Towards Han Pijesak.

4 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us: Where did you stop on the

5 way towards Han Pijesak?

6 A. On the way to Han Pijesak we first stopped -- I don't know the

7 name of the location, but there was a base there for maintenance of roads

8 in wintertime. We stopped there.

9 Q. What was the reason for stopping there?

10 A. Mladic probably knew, because he stopped there. When we stopped

11 and entered this compound, we found there some 15 or so civilian

12 policemen.

13 Q. What were they doing?

14 A. They were sitting there, resting.

15 Q. And what was General Mladic's reaction?

16 A. Very stormy.

17 Q. Okay. Well, describe to us in detail exactly what you were able

18 to see.

19 A. Mladic simply went mad. He was very nervous. He cursed. He

20 asked who was the officer in command. He wanted him to report to him. He

21 repeated that a couple of times until the commanding officer of the unit

22 did come up to him. Afterwards, the officer was punished. Mladic's

23 personal escort slapped this commanding officer himself.

24 Q. Did anyone else get slapped?

25 A. No.

Page 9957

1 Q. All right. And after that, what happened?

2 A. He ordered them to pick up their weapons, and wherever they were

3 deployed to go and take up their positions and do their duty.

4 Q. Do you recall how long you were at this location?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Now, did General Mladic calm down after punishing the civilian

7 police commander and sending them off to wherever they were supposed to be

8 located and deployed?

9 A. He got into the vehicle, but I didn't notice that he had calmed

10 down.

11 Q. All right. And what happened next?

12 A. Shortly after that we stopped again. We came across two vehicles

13 coming towards us. As far as I can remember, they introduce themselves as

14 being Medicins Sans Frontieres.

15 Q. All right. And what happened?

16 A. They ordered them to get out of the vehicle as well. We didn't

17 interfere.

18 Q. Were they foreigners, or were they Serbian or Muslim?

19 A. Serbs.

20 Q. All right. And did you hear what exchange, if any, General Mladic

21 had with them?

22 A. He yelled at them very briefly, that they were smugglers,

23 good-for-nothings, and the greatest traitors of the Serb people, or words

24 to that effect.

25 Q. All right. And after that, what did General Mladic do?

Page 9958

1 A. He was very nervous then too. He ordered us to stop vehicles

2 passing by going in the opposite direction, going towards us.

3 Q. Now, as I understand it when you say "nervous" in that sense of

4 the word, in your language, you mean angry?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. All right. Now -- so what was he -- do you know why he was so

7 angry?

8 A. Because of those policemen down there.

9 Q. I take it just the sight of regular police would set him off?

10 A. I noticed as we went along that he didn't like them much, he

11 didn't stand them.

12 Q. Okay. Now, after that what did General Mladic do, if you recall?

13 A. We stopped the vehicles. And if there were men, he would order

14 them to go to the front line. If there were no men inside, able-bodied

15 men of military age, there were no problems, they could pass on.

16 Q. Okay. Well, which front line was he sending these people to?

17 A. I don't know, because I don't really know my way around in that

18 area. He simply ordered them to go and take up positions.

19 Q. Okay. Now, how long did you stay there carrying out these

20 activities, that is, stopping cars and with Mladic telling the male

21 drivers to go to the front line?

22 A. Very briefly, 10, 15 minutes.

23 Q. All right. And from there what -- after that, what happened?

24 A. We got into the vehicles and continued on our way to Han Pijesak.

25 Q. Did you go all the way to Han Pijesak?

Page 9959

1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us where the next stop was.

3 A. At a petrol station just before entering Han Pijesak.

4 Q. All right. And what was the purpose for stopping there?

5 A. We needed to refuel our tanks.

6 Q. All right. And after refueling your tanks, what happened? Where

7 did you go?

8 A. He asked us: "Fellows, we've arrived. Are you going on with me

9 or are you going back?"

10 Q. Did you know where he was going to? Did he announce a particular

11 place?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And what was the response?

14 A. We were silent.

15 Q. Okay. Now, you had indicated earlier that when you got into the

16 Pinzgauer you noticed that there were three other members of the

17 Bratunac Brigade military police. Do you recall who was the komandir

18 amongst you? Was there someone in charge?

19 A. I don't remember. I don't think there was anyone in charge.

20 Q. All right. Now, you said that you were silent. Is there a reason

21 why you were silent? After all, here was General Mladic inviting you to

22 go on.

23 A. We were very tired. We had been going on without sleep for a long

24 time. But he interrupted us. Quickly he said: "I know, fellows, that

25 you are tired. No problem. You can go back."

Page 9960

1 Q. All right. Did he say anything else to you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you please tell us exactly what you recall, to the best that

4 you can, what General Mladic said.

5 A. Something like this, he said: "Go back. No problem. All the

6 rest will be dealt with by Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel Beara."

7 Something to that effect.

8 Q. All right. First of all, did you know Colonel Beara?

9 A. I only saw him once.

10 Q. Did you know what General Mladic was referring to when he said

11 words to the effect that: The rest will be dealt with by Colonel or

12 Lieutenant Colonel Beara, whatever the rank was that he used?

13 A. We didn't give it any thought.

14 Q. Well, didn't you ask him: "General, sir, what do you mean by

15 Beara will deal with the rest?" Weren't you curious?

16 A. We didn't dare to speak to Mladic like that.

17 Q. Is there a particular reason?

18 A. After the scenes we had witnessed at the entrance to Han Pijesak,

19 we didn't dare ask him any questions.

20 Q. All right. Now, since we're with Colonel Beara, let me ask a few

21 questions. We said that the activities commenced against Srebrenica

22 around July 6th, with Srebrenica falling on July 11th. You told us what

23 you did the evening of July 11th as well as your activities for July 12th

24 and 13th. Could you please tell us, sir, during that stretch of period

25 did you at any point in time see Colonel Beara?

Page 9961

1 A. No.

2 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us about what time would it

3 have been when General Mladic spoke to you at the gas station as you go

4 towards Han Pijesak, at the outskirts of Han Pijesak? What time would

5 this have been?

6 A. It was the evening. It was already dark.

7 Q. Could you please tell us, from there what did you and the other

8 members of the Bratunac Brigade military police do?

9 A. We made a U-turn and went in the opposite direction, towards

10 Vlasenica.

11 Q. All right. And where was your final destination that evening?

12 A. Back to Bratunac.

13 Q. Could you please tell us about what time did you arrive in

14 Bratunac, if you recall.

15 A. It was already late. I couldn't tell you the exact time.

16 Q. Would you please tell us whether you noticed anything unusual as

17 you were driving from the stretch of road of the intersection of

18 Konjevic Polje towards Bratunac.

19 A. No, I didn't notice anything in particular.

20 Q. Now, on that stretch of road, there is as I understand it, it

21 would be on your right side coming from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac, the

22 Kravica agricultural warehouse. Are you aware of that, that structure?

23 A. Yes, I know.

24 Q. Okay. Would I be correct in stating that it is relatively near

25 the road itself?

Page 9962

1 A. About 20 metres from the street, from the road.

2 Q. All right. Now, do you recall when passing that particular

3 structure, that stretch of the road, whether you noticed any unusual

4 activity going on?

5 A. I didn't see anything special. It was the evening, it was dark,

6 night in fact. There was no lighting around, and we passed quickly

7 because the road from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac was unsafe. It was not

8 safe at all and we were driving fast.

9 Q. And just so that we're clear, did you drive fast throughout the

10 entire stretch of your return, that is, from the Han Pijesak area all the

11 way to Bratunac?

12 A. Up to Konjevic Polje we did not drive fast. We were not in a

13 hurry. And from Konjevic Polje onwards, we drove much faster.

14 Q. On that stretch of road that you drove much faster, were you able

15 to -- did you hear any ongoing shooting?

16 A. Occasionally. Single shots, occasionally.

17 Q. Did you see any earth-moving equipment, any large construction

18 equipment, with lighting perhaps, that would at least give the impression

19 that there was ongoing activity going on somewhere in that -- on that

20 stretch of the road?

21 A. No. No, we didn't see anything.

22 Q. Did you stop at any point on that stretch of the road,

23 Konjevic Polje/Bratunac?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Who was driving, incidentally, just to make sure? I think you

Page 9963

1 might have told us already, but who was driving the vehicle?

2 A. Milovan Mitrovic.

3 Q. All right. And did he drive it both on the way towards

4 Han Pijesak and then back towards Bratunac?

5 A. I think so.

6 Q. Okay. Now, when you got to Bratunac could you please tell us

7 where you went.

8 A. We returned to the military police base.

9 Q. And once you returned there, could you please tell us what you

10 did.

11 A. When we arrived, there was no one around, only the officer on

12 duty.

13 Q. Did you get any specific orders or instructions upon your arrival?

14 A. Nothing specific.

15 Q. All right. Now, when you say "nothing specific," was there

16 something that was nonspecific?

17 A. We were told that everybody was in town, because we had asked

18 about the others, and we were told they were in town. They told us to go

19 and get some rest.

20 Q. All right. So getting back to my earlier question: Were you

21 given a specific task to carry out that particular evening, that you

22 recall, that is?

23 A. I don't remember that we were given any specific task.

24 Q. Could you please tell us, in light of what you had learned from

25 the duty officer, what, if anything, you did next.

Page 9964

1 A. We stayed there for a short while, and then we left the base and

2 went into town.

3 Q. Now, when you went into town, were you carrying any weapons?

4 A. We always carry our weapons.

5 Q. And what weapons were you in particular carrying?

6 A. An automatic rifle.

7 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us where you went.

8 A. I went into town. It was very close by, 200, 300 metres perhaps.

9 Q. Now, if I could get you to be a little more specific. Where

10 exactly in town did you go to?

11 A. There is one street when you get into the high street, there is a

12 street that runs towards the school. It is on the way to my home.

13 Q. Okay. Now, is -- I take it that street if you're going from the

14 Bratunac Brigade headquarters, you come out, you get to the main road, you

15 walk down the main road. Then you would take a left to go to the school.

16 Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that the same road that one would find the bakery, a small

19 bakery?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And in relation to the stadium, the football stadium, if one was

22 taking that -- the route that you took, would you be going by the stadium?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Would you be in close proximity of the stadium?

25 A. About a hundred metres away, yes.

Page 9965

1 Q. All right. Now, I want you to think back. I know it's rather

2 difficult to think back close to ten years. But as you were taking that

3 walk from the Bratunac Brigade headquarters on the main road, down, taking

4 that left, and as you were getting within the vicinity of the stadium, did

5 you hear any shooting going on at that time when you were there?

6 A. No. Everything was quiet at that time.

7 Q. Now, you say "everything was quiet," so I take it, since it's at

8 night, it's rather quiet, had there been shooting going on at that

9 particular time, would you have been able to hear it?

10 A. I would.

11 Q. Now, did you ever -- before coming here today, have you ever heard

12 of any shooting going on, either in the afternoon, evening, or night in

13 that stadium, which is more or less in the middle of Bratunac town?

14 A. I didn't hear anything.

15 Q. Did you ever hear that perhaps Momir Nikolic was among the

16 shooters there, carrying out these sorts of atrocious activities?

17 A. I didn't hear that.

18 Q. On that particular night, did you see Momir Nikolic, if you

19 recall?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you see Colonel Beara?

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us where exactly you went.

24 You said you were walking down, you took that left. Now, where are you

25 going and what are you doing?

Page 9966

1 A. I came to the beginning of that street and I saw vehicles parked

2 there, buses, freight trucks. On the freight trucks, I noticed that they

3 had no tarpaulins. I saw people on them.

4 Q. Did you know who they were.

5 A. I could imagine.

6 Q. Did you know why they were there?

7 A. I thought they were waiting there for the morning. I was not

8 supposing anything in particular.

9 Q. Well, didn't that seem rather strange that there they were in the

10 middle of the town in buses and trucks, hundreds of them? Didn't that

11 seem a little odd to you?

12 A. Yes, it seemed odd.

13 Q. Did anyone comment as to what was -- where these folks were to go

14 the following day?

15 A. I talked to people, but nobody seemed to know where these people

16 were supposed to go.

17 Q. Did anyone inform you that they were scheduled to be executed,

18 taken to some place in order to be executed?

19 A. No, nobody made such comments and I had no such thoughts either.

20 Q. Why not?

21 A. Because I had heard what General Mladic had told them. The

22 thought of execution did not cross my mind.

23 Q. Now, during the time while you were there, at that time of the

24 night, did you hear any shooting going on, any firearms being -- going

25 off?

Page 9967

1 A. Very seldom. One shot, then silence, then another shot. Single

2 shots few and far between.

3 Q. Do you know why those shots were being carried out?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. Did you hear or did you see anyone being abused while you were

6 there?

7 A. I stayed there very briefly. I talked a little to my colleagues.

8 I was very tired indeed. I went home to sleep.

9 Q. How long did you stay there?

10 A. Until the morning.

11 Q. All right. Now, you said earlier -- in your earlier answer you

12 said that you "stayed there very briefly," there meaning where the buses

13 were, where the people were. Do you recall how long, how many hours, you

14 were there?

15 A. 10, 15 minutes.

16 Q. All right. Now, you said that you spoke with your colleagues.

17 Who were you referring to?

18 A. Yes. I could not remember now whom I found there.

19 Q. These were members of the Bratunac Brigade military police?

20 A. Yes. There were several of them just when you come into that

21 street.

22 Q. Did you notice whether there were any -- whether there was anyone

23 else there providing security or guarding these buses?

24 A. There were some soldiers. I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly

25 who they were, but by their uniforms I could tell that they were not --

Page 9968

1 their uniforms were dark. It was night and I couldn't notice anything.

2 Q. All right. Now, do you recall about what time this would have

3 been, that period of time that you were there, the 15 or 20 minutes or so

4 before you went to your house?

5 A. An hour before midnight or maybe an hour after midnight, in that

6 range.

7 Q. Now, you said you went to your house. Could you please tell us

8 how long did you stay at your house?

9 A. All night, until the morning.

10 Q. While you were there and before going to your house, did anyone,

11 any of your colleagues, inform you that you had been requested or that you

12 were needed to remain there for the entire night?

13 A. Nobody told me anything.

14 Q. Now, the next morning do you recall about what time you left your

15 house?

16 A. Between 6.00 and 7.00.

17 Q. And where did you go?

18 A. Back to town.

19 Q. All right. Well, did you go to the -- to have breakfast at the

20 headquarters restaurant, as you had on the morning of the 12th and the

21 13th, the previous two days?

22 A. I'm not sure about that. I'm not sure about where I went first.

23 I don't remember.

24 Q. All right. And do you recall where exactly in town you went?

25 A. Later, when I arrived, I was about a hundred, maybe 150 metres

Page 9969

1 away from the school. The buses and trucks were no longer there; they had

2 already left.

3 Q. All right. How long did you stay there?

4 A. An hour, two, three. I don't know.

5 Q. What was the reason for staying there for that period of time?

6 A. Well, I learned from my colleagues that we were assigned to be

7 there to prevent any incidents and to enable the buses to pass smoothly

8 from the school and turn on to the main road.

9 Q. All right. Now, when you got there, were all the buses and all

10 the trucks gone?

11 A. From that street, yes.

12 Q. Okay. Well, were there other buses or other trucks on any other

13 streets at that point in time?

14 A. I don't know about that time.

15 Q. Did you at any point in time go inside the school?

16 A. No. We had no access to the school.

17 Q. When you say "we had no access," what does that mean?

18 A. Nobody gave us orders to go there.

19 Q. All right. Did you go around the school at all to canvass the

20 area, to check and see if anything unusual had happened at or near the

21 school?

22 A. I was not moving around at that time. We had our men standing to

23 the west of the school, but they were ten -- sorry, 100 to 200 metres away

24 from the school.

25 Q. All right. Did you ever learn whether any Muslim men had been

Page 9970

1 killed in or around the school, either that evening or perhaps even the

2 previous evening? And I'm speaking of the evening of the 13th or maybe

3 even as early as the evening of the 12th.

4 A. I found out that some people had been killed, but I didn't learn

5 anything about when they were killed.

6 Q. Do you recall about what time it would have been when you found

7 out that some people had been killed?

8 A. Yes, later, after all that had happened.

9 Q. Okay. Did anyone inform you as to who it was that had committed

10 these killings?

11 A. No, nobody told me anything.

12 Q. Were you in Branjevo Farm or Pilica at any point in time during

13 these days?

14 A. No. To this day, I don't know where the Branjevo Farm is.

15 Q. Were you ever asked to participate in any executions in Pilica,

16 for instance?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. Do you know whether any of your colleagues - and I'm speaking of

19 the Bratunac Brigade military police - whether any of them were in

20 Branjevo Farm or Pilica, be it for killing or securing prisoners to be

21 killed or for any other reasons?

22 A. I don't remember. Nobody told me anything.

23 Q. Okay. Now, we know for a fact, we've heard testimony in this

24 courtroom and it's rather substantiated, that sometime in the afternoon or

25 evening of July 13th, 1995, an incident occurred at the Kravica

Page 9971

1 agricultural warehouse. You've already told us that when you went by that

2 evening of the 13th, you did not notice anything. My question is: Did

3 you ever learn of anything happening at that particular location, on that

4 particular day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would you please tell us when it was that you learned of this

7 incident.

8 A. Later, later. I don't know how much later, but we learnt about

9 it.

10 Q. Do you recall learning who it was that was responsible for the

11 atrocities that occurred at the agricultural warehouse?

12 A. There was one version of the story that a soldier, policeman, or

13 whoever he was had gotten killed there close by, whether inside or right

14 next to it, and anyway, that there was a reaction. And then the guards

15 simply went and killed all the prisoners.

16 Q. All right. Did you ever hear whether it was members of the

17 Bratunac Brigade that were involved in those executions?

18 A. I did not.

19 Q. Now, you've told us about witnessing large numbers of individuals

20 in buses and trucks on the evening of the 13th. Could you please tell us

21 whether you have learned what happened to them.

22 A. Yes, we did learn about it.

23 Q. Did you believe it?

24 A. I did.

25 Q. All right. And may I ask: What was it that you learned?

Page 9972

1 A. That all of them had been killed, executed.

2 Q. Now, I want to fastforward a little bit some weeks, months after

3 this period. Do you recall whether you were involved, in any fashion, in

4 what we now know was a reburial process going on in and around that area?

5 A. We, policemen, on one or two evenings were in town and we were

6 ordered to watch over the traffic. We were not told anything specific,

7 but when the trucks come that we look after the traffic, avoid anything

8 happening, and things like that.

9 Q. All right. Now, do you recall who it was that passed this order

10 on to you?

11 A. I don't recall. I can't tell you exactly.

12 Q. Now, I believe you indicated that you weren't told exactly the

13 purpose. Did there come a time when you learned or you figured out what

14 exactly was going on while you were securing that stretch of road or

15 intersection, wherever you were stationed?

16 A. Yes. We realised what was happening.

17 Q. How was it that you realised it, sir?

18 A. By the very unpleasant smell. There was a strong, unpleasant

19 stench as soon as the trucks arrived.

20 Q. Did you make any inquiries to determine who was in charge of this

21 activity?

22 A. No. It was not our duty to ask questions.

23 Q. All right. Thank you very much, sir. I have no further

24 questions. I appreciate your frankness and your honesty. And if you

25 could be as frank and honest with Mr. Stojanovic in the event he may have

Page 9973

1 some questions, the Prosecutors, and the Judges. Thank you very much.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further direct questions, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

4 Mr. Stojanovic, any questions to this witness?

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

6 Good morning, sir.

7 We have no questions, Your Honours, for this witness.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 We are almost at the time of the break. Should we take the break?

10 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour, if we could perhaps take the break

11 first and I could start after the break.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you very much.

13 We'll take the break and we'll resume at 12.30.

14 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa, your cross-examination, please.

17 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. Issa:

19 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I just want to start off where the

20 examination-in-chief ended, when you were in Bratunac. Now, as I

21 understand it, you referred to a school in Bratunac. You indicated that

22 on the 14th of July you were ordered to go to that school. What school

23 were you referring to?

24 A. It wasn't an order, let me point out.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 9974

1 A. Going from my home on the 14th, I reached the area in front of the

2 school. I didn't go into the school. I was about 100, 150 metres away

3 from the school.

4 Q. Okay. And what school was that?

5 A. The elementary school.

6 Q. Was that the Vuk Karadzic school?

7 A. It was known as the Vuk Karadzic school before the war.

8 Q. Okay. Now, you just said to me that it wasn't an order for you to

9 go to the school. I thought you said in your examination-in-chief that

10 you were ordered to go there. Isn't that right?

11 A. In the evening, on the 13th when I arrived from Han Pijesak.

12 Q. Well, I'm referring to the 14th, sir. You were ordered to go to

13 the Vuk Karadzic school on that day?

14 A. No, not to the school.

15 Q. Where were you ordered to go on the 14th?

16 A. In the morning.

17 Q. All right. In the morning you were ordered to go where?

18 A. It was not an order. I found my colleagues there, 100, 150 metres

19 away from the school. And I joined them, because I had been informed that

20 our post for the day was there.

21 Q. All right. Now, when you went to the Vuk Karadzic school on the

22 13th, did you see prisoners there?

23 A. Yes, on trucks and buses.

24 Q. Okay. Did you see the prisoners go in the direction of the

25 stadium at -- in Bratunac?

Page 9975

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were there vehicles parked near the stadium with prisoners?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. You didn't see any?

5 A. No, I didn't see any. I wasn't there.

6 Q. Did you ever become aware that there were prisoners detained at

7 the soccer stadium on the 13th of July?

8 A. I learned that there were some.

9 Q. When did you learn there were some prisoners at the soccer

10 stadium?

11 A. Later. I don't know how many days later.

12 Q. When you say "later," from whom did you learn that there were

13 prisoners at the soccer stadium?

14 A. My colleagues were talking amongst themselves.

15 Q. When you're talking about your colleagues, you're referring to

16 other military police from the Bratunac Brigade, is that right? You have

17 to answer, sir.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what did they tell you?

20 A. Nothing in particular.

21 Q. Well, you just told us you learned from them there were prisoners

22 detained at the soccer stadium. Can you tell us what they told you.

23 A. That there had been prisoners at the stadium and that they were

24 evacuated from there at the same time, on the same day, as the other

25 prisoners.

Page 9976

1 Q. And that would have been the 13th of July?

2 A. No. Don't try to pin me down on dates. When I returned from

3 Han Pijesak, it was night. And they were evacuated the next day.

4 Q. Now, I just want to move on to an exhibit, and that would be

5 Exhibit P449 for the record, Your Honour.

6 That's the Bratunac Brigade military police daily log. And I

7 would ask the witness to be shown, please, page 15. In the English

8 translation, the date is 15 July 1995. And if we could perhaps put the

9 English translation on the ELMO. Thank you very much, Madam Usher.

10 Now, you see that log there in front of you, sir?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now that says, it's one sentence, I'll read it slowly. "The

13 police worked on searching and combing the area, as well as apprehending

14 the Muslims found hiding in the area."

15 And below that there are some names. And number 2 it says your

16 name. Doesn't it?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, I would like to point out that the

21 Prosecutor is being unfair to the witness. It says "reception," which has

22 nothing to do with the previous paragraph.

23 MS. ISSA: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the Prosecution just asked a simple

25 question whether there is his name there and the witness answered that. I

Page 9977

1 think there must be some follow-up questions.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I agree. But to go from they were combing

3 the terrain and seeing his name, and omitting the very critical aspect

4 "reception," which may cue us in to where he was versus what this

5 activity denotes. You know, I just find it strange.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think in cross-examination there will be

7 something very strange.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

9 JUDGE LIU: But after hearing the answers and the questions, you

10 still have the opportunity to clear this up in your re-direct. We'll see

11 what's the question.

12 Yes, Ms. Issa.

13 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. All right. So, sir, you're noted down as being at the reception

15 on 15 July. Is that right?

16 A. Yes, the reception desk at the entrance to the command of the

17 brigade.

18 Q. So you were -- were you aware then that there were military police

19 combing and searching the area and potentially apprehending Muslims that

20 were found there?

21 A. I don't remember that I was aware of that, but I was busy all day

22 at the reception desk. That was my timetable for that night and day. You

23 worked for two hours, then you had two hours of rest, and then went back

24 to work for another two hours, and so on.

25 Q. Now, if Muslims had been captured in the area, they would have

Page 9978

1 been brought to the MP headquarters. Isn't that right?

2 A. I don't know. I don't remember if any were apprehended. I don't

3 know what they would have done with them.

4 Q. Well, the question is, though: If someone had been apprehended,

5 isn't that a logical place to bring prisoners?

6 A. The reception desk is in a different building. It is not in the

7 same place as the military police headquarters. And if any had been

8 apprehended, they would not have been taken to the reception desk.

9 Q. Okay. We can then go to 17 July 1995, and I can ask you about

10 that. All right. Now, that is a daily combat -- sorry, that is a daily

11 report dated 17 July 1995. And that says: "The patrol worked at the

12 checkpoints. Air raid sirens sounded at 4.00 a.m. Patrols worked on

13 apprehension and securing of Muslims in municipal area of Bratunac and

14 Srebrenica. One police patrol remained in Pilica to secure and guard the

15 Muslims. All else went according to the plan of the military police

16 command."

17 Do you know anything about that?

18 A. No. I had not seen this before.

19 Q. You weren't aware of the patrol in the area, the police patrol?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one. That's at page 18 in the English

22 translation. There's no date on top, but I believe it should be number

23 00663910 in the B/C/S version.

24 All right. Now, that report, sir, comes after 18 July and before

25 20th July, and that states: "During the shift, the police was engaged in

Page 9979

1 notifying conscripts of their deployment. No incidents. Patrols went to

2 secure the public utility workers in Glogova."

3 And underneath "deputy duty officers," number 5 is your name.

4 Isn't that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you were aware of patrols going to secure the public utility

7 workers in Glogova?

8 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. I was on duty from 4.00 to 5.00 p.m.

9 [as interpreted], according to this. I slept. I was getting some rest on

10 that night, and I was on duty from 4.00 to 5.00, according to this

11 document.

12 Q. Do you know where the mass graves are in Glogova?

13 A. I'm not aware of that, no.

14 Q. You're not aware that there were mass graves that were dug in

15 Glogova with bodies of Muslims placed in those graves?

16 A. I knew that they had been dug, but I didn't know where.

17 Q. Okay. I just want to get back to Sandici.

18 MS. ISSA: Thank you very much. I'm finished with those exhibits,

19 Madam Usher.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, just a point of clarification.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: The transcript notes 4.00 to 5.00 p.m., and I noted

23 that on the exhibit it noted "a.m." It's on page 63, and that would be

24 line 3, lines 2 and 3. Perhaps we could have a clarification before we go

25 on to the next area.

Page 9980

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think we'll go with whatever

2 the document says.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.


5 Q. Now, sir, could you tell us what time you accompanied

6 General Mladic to Sandici.

7 A. The last day of the departure of transports from Potocari, it was

8 the 13th.

9 Q. Okay. I'm asking you about the time of day, though. Can you tell

10 us what time of day it was when you arrived at Sandici and Mladic made his

11 speech.

12 A. In the afternoon. I don't know at what time. I don't remember.

13 Q. Can you give us an approximation in the afternoon. When you say

14 "the afternoon," can you tell us approximately what time you think it was.

15 A. 4.00, 5.00, maybe 6.00. Don't ask me to tell you precisely. It

16 was towards dusk, late afternoon. It could have been even 6.00, I'm not

17 sure.

18 Q. So it was late afternoon towards dusk. All right. Now, when you

19 said that you saw General Mladic speaking to the prisoners, did you

20 see --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. While you were there, did you see anybody call the prisoners

23 balijas?

24 A. No. No.

25 Q. And when Mladic was speaking to the prisoners, didn't he also tell

Page 9981

1 the Muslims that if they had surrendered earlier, then there wouldn't have

2 been so many wounded?

3 A. He didn't say anything along those lines.

4 Q. Didn't he also tell the Muslims that they would be taken to

5 Bratunac and that they would get no dinner?

6 A. No, he didn't mention that.

7 Q. Okay. Now, in Sandici boys that were born before 1980 were

8 separated from the rest of the crowd. Did you see that?

9 A. No, they were all together.

10 Q. Did you see that some boys tried to get separated and weren't

11 allowed and were told to go back, to sit with the rest of the men?

12 A. I didn't see that, but I wouldn't say that there were any boys

13 there. As far as I can remember and according to my judgement, they were

14 grown-ups.

15 Q. Did you see any dead bodies in the meadow or near the meadow?

16 A. In the meadow there, no.

17 Q. Near the meadow?

18 A. I didn't pay much attention. I don't remember seeing anything,

19 just that wounded man who was brought there.

20 Q. Okay. There were hundreds of men that were sitting in the Sandici

21 meadow, weren't there?

22 A. I'm unable to give you a number, because whatever I may say I'm

23 not sure about it. I can't remember. Whatever I might say may not be

24 correct, so I'd rather not make any attempts.

25 Q. There were so many that it would be difficult for you to estimate?

Page 9982

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, Your Honour. That's way above -- I

2 mean, we're taking some leaps here. That's not what the gentleman said.

3 MS. ISSA: That was another question.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: That's not what the gentleman said. It's not even

5 another question. It makes an assumption based on the previous answer.

6 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Issa, maybe you could rephrase your question. Of

7 course, the witness did not know how many prisoners were there. But

8 approximately, there must be a number, hundreds, thousands, or maybe 50.

9 We just need a rough idea.

10 MS. ISSA:

11 Q. Would you say, sir, that there were 100 prisoners there,

12 approximately?

13 A. It is very difficult for me at this point in time to tell you. I

14 didn't have a chance to make an estimate as to the number of people there.

15 I was focusing my attention on other matters. I didn't even make any

16 attempt at estimating the number of people in the meadow.

17 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Was there so many people there that it

18 would be difficult for you now to make that estimate?

19 A. No. There weren't that many people there.

20 Q. Well, why is it so difficult for you to make the estimate?

21 A. I'm just not sure of being able to give you anything close to the

22 truth.

23 Q. Okay. Let's move on then to when you went to Nova Kasaba. You

24 saw the men gathered there, right, the prisoners?

25 A. In Nova Kasaba, yes.

Page 9983

1 Q. And what time did you arrive at Nova Kasaba?

2 A. Well, after that it was, I don't know, maybe an hour, an hour and

3 a half after this, less than an hour. I really don't know. I can't

4 remember the amount of time it takes to get to Kasaba from Sandici.

5 Q. Okay. So if I understand you correctly, you're approximating

6 about an hour, an hour and a half after Sandici. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, yes. About an hour, yes.

8 Q. And you told us earlier that you spent approximately 30 to 40

9 minutes in Sandici. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Okay. Now, when you got to the Nova Kasaba stadium or football

12 pitch, was it not filled with men?

13 A. Not quite full.

14 Q. But almost?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Well, how many men were there?

17 A. Again, I'm not sure, but maybe half of the grass pitch was

18 occupied.

19 Q. Okay. Were you aware, sir, that those men had been captured in

20 the woods and brought to Nova Kasaba?

21 A. I didn't know, but I noticed some coming of their own accord to

22 the stadium. While I was there, I actually saw them coming.

23 Q. Okay. And there were soldiers there, weren't there, Serb

24 soldiers?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 9984

1 Q. Okay. Now, when General Mladic spoke to the prisoners at

2 Nova Kasaba, didn't he also tell the Muslim men -- didn't he insult them

3 and curse at them?

4 A. No. He spoke to them quite correctly, politely.

5 Q. Didn't he also tell them that the authorities in Tuzla didn't want

6 them?

7 A. He didn't talk about that.

8 Q. Wasn't there a prisoner, sir, who got up in Nova Kasaba and

9 approached a Serb soldier and the soldier kicked the prisoner and beat him

10 with -- and the soldiers beat him with their rifle butts, and then one of

11 the soldiers shot him?

12 A. I did not witness that.

13 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I believe earlier in your examination-in-chief

14 when you were asked about July 12th and what General Mladic had ordered

15 you, you said - and I'm quoting you - "I suppose my superiors knew about

16 the duties given me by Mladic. And nobody asked me anything; I just did

17 the job."

18 A. That was another day. That wasn't the 12th, the 13th.

19 Q. Well, you were being asked about the 12th at the time.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Correction. The gentleman is correct. It's the

21 13th, and it was in response to him going back to re-take up his position

22 on the 13th. The record is very clear on that.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I have no further questions. Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Any re-direct, Mr. Karnavas?

Page 9985

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Not after that cross-examination, Your Honour. No,

2 thank you.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 Yes.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I don't -- that was a deliberate

6 smear towards the cross-examination, and I just would ask again -- I would

7 implore the Court to try to do something about this because it's getting

8 worse and worse and worse. And it's becoming almost impossible to do our

9 job under this daily barrage of this kind of childish behaviour.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas --

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I haven't said anything.

13 JUDGE LIU: Wait, Mr. Karnavas. From the transcript, I see

14 nothing wrong.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas said: "Not after the cross-examination."

17 Maybe the demeanor, the tone --

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I didn't want to waste any time because I have

19 another witness waiting, Your Honour. What I meant was: There was

20 nothing for me to do direct examination based on the cross. Normally

21 re-direct has to clear up something on the cross. There was nothing to

22 clear up.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I understand that.

24 Mr. McCloskey.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, and I know you're dealing with two

Page 9986

1 Americans here, and I will try to not go into it any further. It was

2 intimately clear what he meant by that to me and to my North American

3 colleague and to any American in the room, absolutely clear. It was a

4 demeaning comment, and to suggest otherwise is absurd.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think you have to pardon me from the other

6 jurisdiction, I could not see the difference. But after this sitting,

7 I'll look into the transcript, compare it with the last one Mr. Karnavas

8 made on the same occasion.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I have a question to ask you. I think

11 you testified on the 12th of July General Mladic asked you and a colleague

12 to guard a junction in the Bratunac Brigade. Do you remember that?

13 A. Not to guard it but to watch over the transport, so as to avoid

14 any incidents as the transport passed through that junction.

15 JUDGE LIU: Is that located in the in Bratunac town, I mean the

16 junction?

17 A. Yes, it is. Yes.

18 JUDGE LIU: I've got a map here. Can you point to me where it is.

19 A. Here.

20 JUDGE LIU: Can you take a pen and draw a circle there.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I was advised that this map was used by another

23 witness before, and can you tell me the location of that junction on the

24 map.

25 A. Me? Should I point it out? This junction goes from the direction

Page 9987

1 of Potocari, and then there is an intersection of roads. To the left you

2 go to Konjevic Polje; straight ahead you go through town towards

3 Ljubovija; and then to the right there's another street also in town.

4 JUDGE LIU: It's not far from the Hotel Fontana, I suppose?

5 A. Very close by. Very close to the Fontana Hotel.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 Are there any questions?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I have one question.


10 Further examination by Mr. Karnavas:

11 Q. Could you point out where the headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade

12 are, just so we know.

13 A. The headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade was when you pass the

14 intersection and go towards Konjevic Polje, this is not very clear, it is

15 to the left about 150 or 200 metres from the intersection. Somewhere

16 here, on the left-hand side. I'm afraid I can't really find my way. The

17 headquarters was in the former tile factory, ceramic tile factory.

18 Q. Okay. Just one last question. From the Bratunac Brigade

19 headquarters, what was the distance where you were standing at that

20 intersection on the 12th?

21 A. Well, approximately between 200 and 300 metres as the crow flies.

22 Q. And from the Hotel Fontana, how close were you?

23 A. It depends if we were at the intersection itself, 70 to 80 metres.

24 Now, if we had something to do to remove the civilians from the roads,

25 from the streets, so we would move around 200, 300 metres, in the

Page 9988

1 direction of Srebrenica.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Issa?

4 MS. ISSA: I have no questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

5 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

6 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 Ms. Issa?

9 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, thank you for coming to The Hague to

11 give your evidence. The usher will show you out of the room and we wish

12 you a pleasant journey back home. You may go now.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 MS. ISSA: Perhaps, Your Honour --

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MS. ISSA: I wonder if I may be excused. This is Mr. McCloskey's

19 witness.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you.

21 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, since we sill have some time during this period.

23 Mr. McCloskey, I think the other day you said you filed a kind of

24 correction to your motion on the amendments of the indictment. Is it --

25 did you file that?

Page 9989

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: We were able to get it to Ms. Stewart last night,

2 and she's written today on that list. So I know she's been getting it all

3 ready to go, and I think it's just a matter of getting her some time to

4 get down to the registry.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, of course you told us that you are

8 going to file your reply today. I don't know where is it? Still in the

9 office?

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it's -- well, as I noted yesterday, Your

11 Honour, there was a caveat that I would not guarantee that it would be in

12 by 9.00 but that it would be in by 4.30. I anticipate that it will be in

13 sometime around 3.30, 4.00. It is about 95 per cent finished. It's not a

14 superb motion, but I think it does cover the points, in light of the time

15 constraints we have in the middle of the case. We will file it by 3.30 or

16 so this afternoon.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And the other day you applied

18 for the issue of subpoena -- in open court. I would like to know whether

19 you want this subpoena in public or in confidential form.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: With whom did I -- well, with respect to which

21 witness, Your Honour, if I could be reminded?

22 JUDGE LIU: Let's go to closed session, please.

23 [Closed session]

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

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5 (Redacted)

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7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

10 at 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

11 the 27th day of May, 2004,

12 at 9.00 a.m.