Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10054

1 Tuesday, 1 June 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I'm very sorry to say that

10 Judge Vassylenko won't be able to join us this afternoon, so the remaining

11 Judges decided to proceed without him in accordance with the Rule 15(B).

12 Before we have the witness, are there any matters the parties

13 would like to raise? Yes. Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Obviously we're a

15 little disappointed that Judge Vassylenko can't be here, but we do

16 understand. The one matter that I did want to bring up was with respect

17 to not this witness, but the following witness. I understand he has high

18 blood pressure or something of that sort. Don't we all? And as I

19 understand it that the Trial Chamber has made a decision that granting his

20 wish to appear via videolink instead of here in person.

21 First, let me just express my disappointment, not that it's worth

22 a whole lot these days, but nonetheless I'm disappointed. Secondly, I

23 think the doctor's paper is worth about 25 to 50 euros, which is what it

24 would cost in Bosnia to purchase such a document from a doctor saying that

25 he cannot travel. Third, the gentleman was able to travel and meet with

Page 10055

1 the Prosecution not too long ago, so obviously when it's to his

2 convenience, he can make it here. Fourth, because of the enormous amount

3 of material that we wanted to go through and because the witness may very

4 well not be declared a hostile witness on direct examination and because

5 of the nature of the material, not to mention that we also recently

6 received some additional material from the Prosecution with respect to

7 what this witness had provided them as late -- or as early, I should say,

8 2002 through his lawyer, I am unwilling to relinquish I should say my

9 position, my earlier position, of insisting that the gentleman appear here

10 in court, recognising of course that the ultimate decision is with the

11 Trial Chamber. But, you know, sometimes one has to make a decision; I've

12 made my decision. And of course if the Trial Chamber feels there's no

13 other way, then the Trial Chamber can decide on its own to drop this

14 witness as a result of the counsel's unwillingness to entertain another

15 form of this gentleman testifying.

16 Now, having said that, it's our understanding that this particular

17 witness has entered into some sort of an agreement with the Jokic Defence

18 team, where they are willing to allow this gentleman to appear viva voce

19 for this limited purpose of him saying on this particular day what he saw

20 and what he heard. I don't want to go into the particulars, but

21 nonetheless it would appear that this gentleman would be called as a

22 Defence witness in the Jokic team, in which case I would be entitled then

23 to cross-examine the gentleman. And in light of the logistics and in

24 light of the time frame that we have, and so as not to disturb anything,

25 what we would be doing is I would be asking for leave from the

Page 10056

1 Trial Chamber to appear at the location where the gentleman would be

2 sitting at testifying, so at least I could confront him eye to eye as I

3 cross-examine him and give him documents. So in other words if he is

4 going to be testifying via videolink, I would asking that I am present at

5 that location. And of course everybody here can watch me from afar. So

6 that would be my decision, Your Honour.

7 Now, in light of that, we heard a message late Friday. So it was

8 very difficult for us to make any other adjustments, though I have tried

9 to make some adjustments to get some other witnesses. We will have a

10 witness for Friday. This witness that we're about to hear will go into

11 tomorrow, I would suspect, easily. I have lots of documents. So there is

12 a likelihood that we will have a day free, that is around Thursday,

13 because I don't know if I can get anybody else. I have been working on

14 that all morning. So in any event, I just wanted to bring the Court up to

15 speed on that, and of course again reiterate my deep -- I don't want to

16 say dissatisfaction, but disappointment I would say with the Court's

17 decision to allow this gentleman through this piece of paper to suggest

18 that he cannot travel. But that's all I have, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

20 Any comments from the Prosecution's side?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is the first I hear of any of this. We were

22 getting prepared to cross-examine (Redacted), so I take it he's -- none of

23 this is going to happen this week, I imagine, given that there's a lot of

24 logistics involved in such things. I would prefer to have a live witness

25 as well, but do I understand he is coming live for the Jokic -- no. Okay.

Page 10057

1 Well, in any event I don't really think the Prosecution is involved in

2 this, though I would prefer to have a witness live as well. And -- but I

3 have no knowledge or anything about his health, though he was here and

4 looked pretty healthy when I saw him a while back.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. I believe that the

6 Trial Chamber has done it's utmost the most to try to ask this witness to

7 come here, and even at the end of last week the chief of the witness and

8 victim's protection unit got in touch with this witness and tried to

9 persuade him to come here. But I'm very sorry to say that the effort has

10 got no result. So I believe at this moment the most feasible way to hear

11 this witness is to have the videolink or we just simply drop it off. And

12 I'm not quite sure whether Mr. Karnavas could be on the spot during the

13 videolink sessions. At least it's something new with me since I came to

14 this Tribunal for four years already. But any innovative suggestions are

15 worthy for consideration, and certainly we'll consider this suggestion and

16 to see whether it's feasible or not.

17 And this is also my first time to hear that this witness will

18 testify in the Jokic case. I believe when we have more than one accused

19 in one case, the Defence counsels are encouraged to have a combined

20 witness, which means we don't have to call this witness twice for the

21 different accused. So I hope after Court the parties will consult with

22 each other on this matter and to see whether we have done -- we have to do

23 it at this stage by the videolink or wait until the later stage, if there

24 is a possibility for him to appear live.

25 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

Page 10058

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, again, I'm not a medical doctor, but I would

2 hope that the Court would reconsider, just because the person has -- one,

3 he is reluctant to come here. I understand that. Who wants to be here as

4 a witness? Number two, we have the power of subpoena. Number three, I

5 think a witness simply getting a piece of paper, saying I have high blood

6 pressure and that being an excuse for not coming over here, that to me is

7 a way of getting around the system, and I think it sends perhaps the wrong

8 message. Also, what if the man has to be indicted at some point, can he

9 show this piece of paper and say, "Well, I guess he can't come and be a

10 guest at the UN Detention Centre because he's got high blood pressure." I

11 don't think there's sufficient grounds for this gentleman not getting on a

12 plane and coming here, especially when he predicted this illness when I

13 broached him the first time. He predicted he was going to be ill, so I

14 guess he's clairvoyant as well.

15 With respect to the joint witnesses, Mr. Stojanovic wasn't here at

16 the time but Mr. Lukic was here at the Status Conference when we began the

17 Defence -- prior to the beginning of the Defence case where this issue of

18 videolink had come up and Mr. Lukic had represented to the Trial Chamber

19 that they were going to be questioning (Redacted) on a very limited nature.

20 Of course we anticipated that that would be coming in through the

21 cross-examination so he wouldn't called twice. From a tactical

22 standpoint, since I'm going to have him by videolink, as it would appear,

23 against my wishes, might I add, I don't want to be conducting a direct

24 examination of a witness who potentially might be hostile, not knowing

25 whether the Trial Chamber will grant me that status of the witness being

Page 10059

1 hostile, number one, so I have to control a very difficult witness on

2 direct examination where I don't have the power of using closed-ended

3 questions; that's number one. Number two, we have a lot of documents, so

4 I don't know how I can physically manage to confront the witness with

5 documents because I'm dealing with a lawyer; Mr. Vasic is a lawyer. So

6 he's not just any kind of a witness, so that's the other thing.

7 As far as we being present, as far as I understand it, recently

8 there was a hearing. It got aborted at the last minute - it wasn't

9 completely held - of a case in Rwanda where the lawyers travelled to

10 The Hague - the witness was going to be testifying by videolink from

11 The Hague to cross-examine the witness, where the witness would be -- for

12 a case in Rwanda. So based on that, I thought the possibilities exist,

13 though I don't really understand the whole notion of videolink myself.

14 I'm not -- never done this before. But I assume that it can't be that

15 difficult having two cameras.

16 So since the Court, it would appear, has made a decision to have

17 this guy testify videolink, and since I see him as a potentially dangerous

18 witness where I need an enormous amount of control and there's going to be

19 an enormous amount of confrontation, not in the physical sense, but in the

20 spirit of debating, I would prefer having him for cross-examination. And

21 because of the logistics, because of the logistics, involved, if the Jokic

22 team were to call him as their witness, then I would be afforded my right

23 to cross-examination. So from a tactical standpoint it makes more sense

24 for me to have him on cross-examination than on direct examination at this

25 stage; that's number one. And number two, I would be asking for leave to

Page 10060

1 go into Bosnia, wherever the videolink is, and it may cause some

2 disruption in the Court's calendar. Whereas if it's done during the Jokic

3 Defence, I could arrange that ahead of time, so there's no delay on the

4 part of me being there, I can arrange that. I don't know if I'm making a

5 lot of sense, but in essence I've thought about this somewhat. But

6 frankly, we could put him on the plane tomorrow, and he could be here and

7 I think that solves everything. I'll be soft on him.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think your statement is

9 registered in the transcript.

10 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic -- by the way, before I give the floor to

11 Mr. Stojanovic, could I know whether this witness is a protected witness

12 or not.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Which one?

14 JUDGE LIU: The one you mentioned just now.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: As far as I understand it, he's not a protected

16 witness. This gentleman has been contacting the Prosecution, he's been

17 talking. All I know is he is a witness who doesn't want to come here and

18 testify and has made it abundantly clear that he does not wish to come

19 here at all, under any circumstances. That's all I know.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go into private session just for a

22 second, just out of an abundance of caution.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (Redacted)

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Page 10064

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

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5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, good afternoon, Witness.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

16 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Judge Argibay. Good

25 afternoon.

Page 10065

1 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

2 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. If I could have the assistance of the usher here for one second.

5 Let me show you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit D187/1.

6 Could you please look at it and see -- tell us if that is your name.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

9 Now, sir, could you please tell us whether you were a member of

10 the Bratunac Brigade on July 1995.

11 A. Yes.

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 10066

1 Q. Would you please tell us what your military educational background

2 is.

3 A. I completed military secondary school and military academy, major

4 course artillery.

5 Q. All right. How many years of education do you actually have?

6 A. That's eight years of education, military education.

7 Q. All right. And currently where are you serving?

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, should we go to private session?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I thought we were in private session.


11 MR. KARNAVAS: We're not?

12 JUDGE LIU: We'll just have those places redacted.


14 JUDGE LIU: It's all right. We'll go to private session.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: I assumed that we were.

16 [Private session]

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 10067

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 [Open session]


9 Q. All right. Now, could you please -- I want to focus your

10 attention to the period surrounding the fall of Srebrenica, and I'm going

11 to give you two dates as reference points, one being July 6th, 1995, the

12 day when the activities commenced, and July 11th, 1995, the day when we

13 know Srebrenica fell. Could you please tell us prior to whether you, in

14 your position, had been given any particular instructions concerning the

15 events that were about to ensue.

16 A. No.

17 Q. All right. Now, the positions where the men were at, how long had

18 they been at those actual positions?

19 A. They had been at these positions for a number of years.

20 Q. All right. Now, in light of the activities that were about to

21 occur, were you and your men given any tasks to move your positions,

22 advance forward, and perhaps capture any enemy territory?

23 A. No, we weren't.

24 Q. Very briefly, if you could tell us, from July 6th to July 11th, in

25 light of your position, do you recall what activities occurred concerning

Page 10068

1 your position and your men.

2 A. We had information -- intelligence information at the time, much

3 before the 6th of July indicating that the enemy was planning to attack

4 our positions and to carry out a breakthrough towards Tuzla. For that

5 purpose, the combat readiness was raised at a very high level, and that is

6 how we understood this task at hand. And we took it very seriously and

7 acted accordingly.

8 Q. Okay. First of all, may I ask you to explain to us, when you say

9 "combat readiness," what does that mean?

10 A. That means that any leave of soldiers from the lines were banned.

11 That also means that we had to capture a forward command post. That also

12 means to carry out more frequent supervision of the condition of units.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. And some other activities, for instance, engineering works on

15 fortifications, organisation of firing position systems, et cetera.

16 Q. Now, the translation here says that you had to "capture a forward

17 command post." Did I hear you right?

18 A. That activity was often undertaken in order to be more successful

19 in commanding. These forward command posts were usually within the combat

20 disposition, and that is at the very front line in most cases.

21 Q. All right. So are you -- well, I just want to make sure I

22 understand you correctly. Are you trying to capture a forward command

23 post in front of the enemy, or are you trying to establish a command post,

24 a forward command post?

25 A. No, that was my command post within the defence area of my

Page 10069

1 battalion. So that was behind -- directly behind my lines.

2 Q. All right. Did you have, incidentally, a zone of responsibility?

3 A. No. According to the rules that were in force and that we

4 observed, a battalion has its own area of defence, not a zone of

5 responsibility. I don't even know this term, "zone of responsibility."

6 Q. Now, this area of defence, could you please describe it to us.

7 What are we talking about, so we understand, we who are not in the

8 military?

9 A. An area of defence is a piece of land where the battalion is

10 deployed for the purpose of defence. According to combat rules, a

11 battalion should have four forward lines, a company forward and a company

12 behind. There are some other elements of combat disposition, a command

13 post, an anti-armour group, a unit for anti-aircraft defence, et cetera.

14 But the main thing is that if we were to follow these rules, the battalion

15 should have a company on the second line on fortified positions.

16 Q. And did you have all of that at that time? Did you have a full --

17 A. No.

18 Q. Why not?

19 A. Because we had too few soldiers and a large area that we were

20 supposed to defend.

21 Q. All right. Did you have a line behind you, a second echelon line

22 of defence?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Could you please tell us, if you recall from the rules, what the

25 length and width would be of an area of defence.

Page 10070

1 A. An area of defence for a battalion is from 3 to 5 kilometres, that

2 is the area the battalion should cover on the first line. And in depth it

3 should go from 2 to 3 kilometres.

4 Q. All right. Now, going back to the events surrounding Srebrenica,

5 from July 6th to July 11th, did you advance your positions at any point in

6 time to capture any land?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now, I want to go day by day, and if any activity occurred, stop

9 me and we'll talk about it. On the 6th do you know whether your soldiers

10 were involved in any activities?

11 A. No, they were not, apart from those defence activities we were

12 charged with, we were supposed to carry out a so-called decisive fatal

13 defence.

14 Q. Okay. Now, this decisive defence, could you please explain to us

15 what that term means, what does it entail?

16 A. To put it in the simplest terms, that means the enemy under no

17 circumstances must be allowed to cross over our positions.

18 Q. And why is that?

19 A. It was estimated that by threatening or even crossing an area of

20 defence, the enemy could achieve great success in making advances into our

21 territory. And because it is believed that the area of defence is of

22 great importance.

23 Q. All right. Now, on the 7th of July, do you recall whether there

24 was any battle activity?

25 A. During those days, we were faced with frequent provocations by the

Page 10071

1 enemy, meaning that the enemy was firing at our positions from different

2 positions and different areas.

3 Q. And was there a response to this, to these acts of provocation or

4 firing?

5 A. In certain cases, yes.

6 Q. All right. Do you know whether you were firing at soldiers,

7 whether you were firing at particularly -- at artillery equipment? What

8 exactly were the targets that you were firing at?

9 A. We fired exclusively at enemy targets, those targets which were

10 opening fire at us. As far as artillery is concerned, I didn't have much

11 and I couldn't use it.

12 Q. Now, what about the -- well, you said you didn't have much and you

13 couldn't use it. Why couldn't you use it?

14 A. Well, first of all, our combat sets and ammunition were

15 incomplete. Ammunition was very short and we had to save it because we

16 were expecting to be attacked by a brigade. That was something that we

17 expected based on the intelligence we received.

18 Q. All right. Now, you say that you would be attacked by a brigade.

19 Are we speaking about the Muslim soldiers that were within Srebrenica, or

20 are you speaking of some other brigade?

21 A. I mean primarily members of the 28th Division of the Army of

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 Q. All right. Now, what about the 8th of July? Was there any action

24 on that particular day, other than -- we've been talking about the

25 sporadic, occasional acts of provocation?

Page 10072

1 A. Not unlike what happened in the previous days, there were

2 provocations but there were no shifts of units or lines.

3 Q. Okay. Now, what about on the 8th of July -- 7th, 8th, or 9th of

4 July? Anything happen on that day, the 9th?

5 A. On that day, I tried to execute a demonstrative attack, more for

6 the purpose of forced reconnaissance, of scouting of enemy positions.

7 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go step by step on this so we all understand

8 what this term means, "demonstrative attack," and of course the purpose of

9 forced reconnaissance. First of all, what's a demonstrative attack?

10 A. Well, that is an attack which is not aimed at completely capturing

11 enemy positions. In essence, as I emphasised, it boiled down to an

12 attempt of forcible or forced reconnaissance, aimed at establishing where

13 the enemy was from a certain safe distance, at opening fire against those

14 positions, finding safe cover, and observing and noting the firing

15 positions of the enemy. So basically, it was reconnaissance.

16 Q. All right. And what was the purpose for all of that?

17 A. The purpose was to gain some knowledge as to the whereabouts of

18 the enemy, whether there were any shifts in hostile positions, what the

19 intention of the enemy were, et cetera.

20 Q. And what was the result of this demonstrative attack?

21 A. Well, unfortunately when we were moving, the commander of the

22 scouting platoon stepped on a mine and was killed. And at the same time,

23 his deputy was seriously wounded. As a result, we just went back to our

24 initial positions.

25 Q. All right. In this demonstrative attack, just so we are clear,

Page 10073

1 did you actually capture any enemy territory? Did you go beyond the lines

2 that you had been holding that was part of your area of defence?

3 A. We did not capture anything. We did move ahead of our lines for

4 about 100 metres maybe, 200, 300 metres.

5 Q. During this demonstrative attack, do you know whether any enemy

6 soldiers were killed?

7 A. I know none were killed.

8 Q. How do you know that?

9 A. I know because at the time I was at the observation post, the fog

10 was very thick and the only sound that could be heard was this fatal

11 explosion, fatal for my commander. And then, when I contacted that unit,

12 I gave them orders to go back to their initial position.

13 Q. All right. Just a couple of last questions on this topic. Were

14 you ordered to carry out this demonstrative attack, or was this part of

15 your own initiative, in light of your position at the time?

16 A. I was given orders.

17 Q. Could you please tell us who gave you those orders and how were

18 they received.

19 A. I got that order from the brigade commander, and it was brought to

20 me by the chief of staff in person.

21 Q. When you say it was brought to you in person, so was this a

22 written order or a verbal order?

23 A. It was a written order.

24 Q. Now, did the chief of staff remain there while you carried out

25 this demonstrative attack?

Page 10074

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did he participate in this event?

3 A. He participated in the sense that he followed the developments.

4 Q. And of course we're talking about Mr. Pajic. Right? Major Pajic,

5 Novica?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, this was on the 9th of July. Could you please tell us what

8 happened, if anything, on the 10th of July.

9 A. On the 10th of July, we attended the funeral of the commander who

10 had been killed. I went briefly to that funeral. The rites were

11 relatively short. After that, I went back to my unit. There were no

12 major developments at that time that concerned us and our defence line.

13 Q. All right. Did you receive any orders on that particular day to

14 carry out any activities?

15 A. No.

16 Q. July 11th, 1995, that would be the day that Srebrenica fell. Do

17 you recall whether on that particular day you and your men did anything

18 unusual?

19 A. No, nothing unusual.

20 Q. Did you receive any particular orders on that day?

21 A. No, apart from the order to follow the situation in the territory

22 ahead of us.

23 Q. All right. Did you -- did you or any of your men, to your

24 knowledge, go into Srebrenica on that day, that would be the 11th of July,

25 1995?

Page 10075

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you or any of your men go to Potocari on that day?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, before we move on to July 12th, which would be the day after

5 Srebrenica fell, could you please tell us whether from the 6th of July to

6 the 11th of July, whether any upper-echelon, higher-echelon, officers from

7 the Main Staff or the corps came to your positions.

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. Now, on the 12th of July, could you please tell us

10 whether you received any particular orders on that day.

11 A. On the 12th of July, I received an order to occupy the territory

12 of the Cizmici village and to establish a link with a neighbouring

13 2nd Battalion.

14 Q. All right. That's it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And -- now, we're going to go through the map at some point, but

17 first I just want to get the narration now. If you could just please tell

18 us, if you recall, what the distance would be of this movement of troops.

19 A. It's not such a great distance as the crow flies, but the terrain

20 we had to cross was very inaccessible, and there were the minefields. The

21 minefields were obviously ahead of us and we had to move slowly that day,

22 with a great deal of caution. And having set out somewhere in the

23 afternoon, we managed to take hold of that area.

24 Q. Now, during that particular day, did you come across any

25 prisoners, you or the soldiers, the units?

Page 10076

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you come across, if you recall, any dead bodies?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. Did you come across any abandoned weapons?

5 A. Not large-calibre weapons. Maybe a soldier or two came across an

6 abandoned rifle or something like that, but there were no cannons or

7 anything like that. I don't remember seeing any of that.

8 Q. All right. On that particular day, do you recall whether you

9 observed enemy forces?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All right. Did you observe a column of Muslims coming from

12 Srebrenica, for instance, heading in a particular direction? Did you

13 notice that? Now, we're talking about the 12th of July.

14 A. Not on the 12th.

15 Q. Just to be on the safe side, had you noticed, had you noticed,

16 prior to July 12th, any enemy forces on the move?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Now, we're going to go step by step. When was that?

19 A. That was in the evening of the 10th, that is, in the early evening

20 hours on the 10th of July. And on the 11th, throughout the day, you could

21 see that column.

22 Q. All right. Could you please tell us how far this column was from

23 you, what the distance would be.

24 A. At least 5, 6, maybe more, kilometres, as the crow flies, distance

25 from the first, foremost, defence line, I mean.

Page 10077

1 Q. And could you describe to us the terrain. What was the terrain

2 like that separated you and your men and the column that you had observed?

3 A. The terrain was rather rough, inaccessible, criss-crossed in

4 various ways by brooks and some other natural features, obstacles such as

5 forest, woods, et cetera.

6 Q. In light of this terrain, could you please tell us how you were

7 able to observe this column, especially from the distance that you've

8 indicated to us.

9 A. My forward command post was on top of a dominant feature, from

10 which one could observe using sights, optical instruments, and the naked

11 eye even, that in the area around Jaglic there was a moving column.

12 Q. And I take it you had optical instruments like binoculars?

13 A. Yes, some binoculars.

14 Q. Now, first of all, did you at any point in time attack this

15 column?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you ever ordered to attack this column?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you ever advance to try to capture this column or members of

20 this column?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you inform anyone that you had seen, observed, this column of

23 men going in a particular direction, which I am sure, in light of your

24 background and experience of the terrain, knew fairly well where they were

25 heading toward?

Page 10078

1 A. We were reporting to the duty officer of the brigade.

2 Q. How would you or how did you report to the duty officer?

3 A. By communications.

4 Q. Okay. But you got to tell us what those communication means were,

5 because we weren't there. So what did you have?

6 A. We had telephones and field radio devices, RUP-12 and similar.

7 Q. All right. Did you have a Motorola with you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At this point in time when you saw this column and you told us it

10 was the night of the 10th and then on the 11th, did you at any point in

11 time, to the best of your recollection, call your commander, the commander

12 of the Bratunac Brigade, to inform him of what you had seen?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Is there a particular reason why you didn't call your commander?

15 A. During those days, our official communication was very poor. My

16 communications were mainly directed towards the duty officer of the

17 brigade command.

18 Q. All right. And I take it once you pass on a message, one might

19 expect that the duty officer would do something?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And just so I'm not leading you and draw an objection, what might

22 that be?

23 A. I expected him to inform officers in charge, the brigade

24 commander, and other higher-ranking officers --

25 Q. All right.

Page 10079

1 A. -- for the purpose of having an insight into the situation on the

2 ground.

3 Q. But in light of what you had seen, would it not also make sense

4 for you to contact someone like the head of intelligence and security of

5 the brigade?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. Because, and that is what the rules say, I was to communicate

9 directly only with the commander or perhaps his deputy because I was

10 directly subordinated to them.

11 Q. All right. Now, in light of the information that you had passed

12 on, did you at any point in time receive any orders as to what if

13 anything, or what if any actions you should take with respect to the

14 column that you had seen?

15 A. We received no orders whatsoever regarding the column, in terms of

16 doing anything.

17 Q. All right. Now, you told us that on the 12th you had moved your

18 positions, and I believe we had finished with the 12th. So now let's move

19 on to the 13th. Could you please tell us what, if anything, you and your

20 men did on the 13th.

21 A. My activities were focused, on the 13th of July, on linking up

22 with the 2nd Infantry Battalion.

23 Q. When you say "linking up," what are we talking about? What does

24 that mean?

25 A. That means that we had first to spot where their position was,

Page 10080

1 that they see us as well; that we coordinate fire, if necessary, for us to

2 defend ourselves; to exchange information, if there was any; and things

3 like that.

4 Q. And why was that necessary, the link-up? You told us what it is,

5 now tell us why. Why would that be important, if it is? I don't know.

6 A. It is important because between my battalion and the

7 2nd Battalion, there was a gap of space that under such circumstances the

8 enemy might have made use of in terms of inflicting losses on our forces.

9 Q. All right. Did you link up?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall about when? What day? What time? What place?

12 A. I personally went with some officers, and we went to the village

13 of Pale. That is where I met the commander. I think it was the

14 5th Company of the 2nd Infantry Battalion. And I remember that on that

15 particular day, we discussed the defence system established by the enemy

16 facing us, because in that particular area they had some fortified

17 features. And we managed to observe an anti-aircraft gun positioned

18 there, enemy gun, and I think there was also an anti-aircraft machine-gun.

19 That was basically what we discussed.

20 Q. All right. And what time of day would this have been?

21 A. That was on the morning of the 13th when I managed to meet them.

22 Q. All right. Now, on that day do you know whether you and the

23 others, the ones that you had linked up with, whether you were engaged in

24 any activities with the enemy forces?

25 A. On that day we didn't see any enemy forces, either individuals or

Page 10081

1 any major units.

2 Q. Did you see any dead bodies?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you come across any abandoned weapons?

5 A. Except this four-barrel gun, anti-aircraft gun that I mentioned

6 earlier, and an anti-aircraft machine-gun, we didn't find any other

7 weapons.

8 Q. Now, in getting to this position on the 13th, as you've indicated

9 to link-up, having moved your positions on the 12th through the 13th, did

10 you -- were you searching the terrain?

11 A. Well, you cannot say exactly that we did that, but we did try to

12 find out what was happening in front of us, behind us, to the extent

13 possible under the circumstances.

14 Q. All right. Well, maybe you can help us out here a little bit.

15 First of all, let's try to figure out what is the manner in which one

16 would go about searching the terrain. Could you please describe that.

17 A. Well, the searching of terrain is a preventive scouring action

18 taken with the aim of having control over a territory in terms of finding

19 out whether there are any so-called remaining parts left behind by the

20 enemy or any infiltrated sabotage groups or military equipment or weapons

21 and some other minor tasks or purposes that this whole operation is

22 undertaken for.

23 Q. All right. Well, that's a nice definition, but concretely could

24 you tell me how would this be carried out? We know the purpose, now tell

25 me how.

Page 10082

1 A. It is carried out by -- from a particular position, depending on

2 the problems that we anticipate to face, we head off from the so-called

3 blockade line in a combat disposition of troops and scour the terrain.

4 Q. All right. Well, again, does that mean that the soldiers are

5 walking one behind another in a column, or are they spread out and are

6 they moving in a spread position? Which of the two concretely? Remember,

7 we're are not soldiers.

8 A. Yes. Soldiers move in a combat disposition, which means that they

9 are 6 to 8 or 10 metres apart from each other or from one another, that

10 they have a visible contact between one another. And in the process, they

11 undertake all measures against any possible surprises.

12 Q. All right. Thank you. Now that we know how one would go about

13 searching the terrain, concretely tell us how you and the men moved on the

14 12th to the 13th when you went and you linked up with the 2nd Battalion.

15 In what manner?

16 A. Most often we moved in columns that are secured; in combat terms,

17 they had flank security, front security, and things like that.

18 Q. Is there a particular reason why you moved mostly in columns

19 versus spreading out in a combat disposition format?

20 A. Yes. The reason is mostly difficult terrain that we had the task

21 of moving across. Also, this area contained minefields that we didn't

22 know the location of, and that is what put restrictions on our movement

23 along certain roads, like village roads and things like that.

24 Q. All right. Now, on the 13th after linking up, where did you go?

25 A. On the 13th, I went to my command post in Cizmici, and that took

Page 10083

1 place in the early evening hours. Before that, I visited part of the

2 units in order to see how the situation was there.

3 Q. All right. Now, on the 14th, could you please tell us what, if

4 anything, you and the men did.

5 A. On the 14th, we didn't move anywhere. On the 14th, I also visited

6 my troops because I wanted to organise the so-called firing system in

7 order to prevent any possible surprises from taking place. I also wanted

8 to see how the situation in the battalion was, where the companies and

9 platoons were deployed.

10 Q. All right. Now, I believe, I believe, that this may be time for

11 the break. And if that is the case, then perhaps we can pick up with you

12 explaining to us about why you needed to organise your firing system.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We now have a break. We'll resume at 4.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Now, sir, I believe we left off where you indicated that on July

19 14th one of the things that you wanted to do was organise your firing

20 system. Could you please tell us what do you mean by that.

21 A. It's an undertaking that is always done in order to identify

22 specific tasks of the units on the ground to identify the axis of firing

23 from the weapons that we have at our disposal, and if necessary to create

24 minefields. In short, to undertake all necessary measures in order to

25 undertake the most effective defence as possible.

Page 10084

1 Q. All right. Now, if I understand you, was part -- was the firing

2 in relation to identifying the range of how far the weapons could fire so

3 then you would know where to lay the mines, the land mines? Is that -- am

4 I correct at understanding your rather technical answer?

5 A. Yes, there is a connection, of course.

6 Q. Okay. Now, on the 14th did you do anything else?

7 A. Nothing in particular, apart from that.

8 Q. Did you move your troops in any way? Did you search any terrain?

9 A. No.

10 Q. On the 15th of July do you recall that day, and if so, could you

11 please tell us what, if anything, you and the men did.

12 A. As far as I can remember, there was heavy rain on that day. And I

13 believe that that was a very powerful limiting factor for any sort of

14 activities that we were supposed to do.

15 Q. Do you recall whether you had received any orders? I know that we

16 have the rain and it's a limiting factor, but did you in fact receive any

17 orders that you were required to carry out?

18 A. We had received an order to search the terrain along a specific

19 axis, and as I understood the task was to cover the axis that we already

20 were deployed on.

21 Q. All right. Did you in fact search the terrain?

22 A. We didn't do that either on the 14th or the 15th.

23 Q. Did you by any chance notify your commander by way of passing a

24 message through the duty officer that you were unable to carry out the

25 order that had been issued to you?

Page 10085

1 A. I cannot remember that specific detail, but I presume that it was

2 clear to everyone that because of the rain we were not able to move

3 forward.

4 Q. On the 14th or the 15th, did you or your men come across any enemy

5 soldiers?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you come across any dead bodies?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you come across any abandoned weapons?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All right. Now, on that 15th, the 15th of July, is there anything

12 else about that particular day that may be of significance for this case?

13 A. One of those days, I think it was the 15th or the 16th - and I

14 think it was the 16th - I was visited by the commander, Lieutenant Colonel

15 Cvjetinovic. He visited me at my position.

16 Q. All right. Just to make sure we got it correct, you were visited

17 by the commander and, and, Lieutenant Colonel Cvjetinovic. Correct?

18 A. Yes, I think so, that both of them came to see me.

19 Q. Okay. But your commander at that point in time was

20 Colonel Blagojevic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall about what time of day this would have been?

23 A. I suppose that it must have been in the afternoon. I can't tell

24 you the exact hour.

25 Q. Do you recall what the nature of the visit was, the purpose?

Page 10086

1 A. They were just inspecting the troops, they wanted to see where we

2 were, what we were doing, because we didn't communicate too often in those

3 days. They simply wanted to see what the situation was.

4 Q. All right. Could you please tell us approximately how long they

5 were there.

6 A. Perhaps an hour. I'm not sure. I think it was for about an hour.

7 Q. And during that hour or approximate one hour that they were there

8 visiting and checking up, did you by any chance notify them of any

9 particular problems that you might have been having at the time?

10 A. I informed them about the situation prevailing in the unit, about

11 the problems that I faced, because many soldiers were wandering about at

12 that time. I also described the situation in the unit, our specific

13 position, and some other details.

14 Q. All right. Do you know approximately how many soldiers were out

15 wandering about?

16 A. I wouldn't be able to say exactly, to give you a number, but there

17 were cases of individuals who abandoned their positions at the time.

18 Q. Please tell us where these soldiers would have gone, if you know.

19 A. They most probably went home.

20 Q. When you say "home," where are we speaking about, back in Bratunac

21 or some other location?

22 A. Bratunac, most probably. In fact, my soldiers were mostly from

23 the surrounding villages or the area of Podrinje and other villages, which

24 means that they did not come from the urban parts. And I demanded at that

25 time the military police to intensify their operations in case they came

Page 10087

1 across such soldiers to send them immediately back to their positions.

2 Q. All right. Now, on the 16th did you receive any particular

3 orders?

4 A. On the 16th we started the scouring of the ground.

5 Q. All right. And in which direction?

6 A. In the direction of Lupoglava and approximately towards the

7 village which I think is called Susnjari.

8 Q. All right. Now, was that pursuant to an order?

9 A. No. Since the order had a different instruction contained in it,

10 which was rather unclear to me, that was exactly the reason because of

11 these ambiguities that we continued to move from the point where we had

12 been, that is, from the line that we were on on the 14th and the 15th of

13 July.

14 Q. All right. Incidentally, when you had brought to the attention of

15 the military police, as I believe you indicated, that if they came across

16 any men to send them back to the unit, do you know whether any men were in

17 fact sent back to the unit by the military police?

18 A. I don't know anything about that. I cannot remember.

19 Q. In searching the terrain - and we're going to go through the

20 documents, the orders, and the map - but in searching the terrain, do you

21 recall whether you came across any prisoners?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Any dead bodies?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Any abandoned weapons?

Page 10088

1 A. Are you referring to the 16th?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. No, we didn't find any.

4 Q. Did you by any chance engage -- were you engaged, you and the

5 others? Were you engaged by any enemy forces?

6 A. No.

7 Q. All right. Could you please tell us for how long did this

8 searching operation go on.

9 A. Well, it lasted throughout the 16th and only.

10 Q. And what about the 17th? What, if anything, did you do on that

11 day if you recall?

12 A. I remember receiving an order to line up my battalion in the area

13 of my former command post in order to execute the mission of going to

14 Zepa.

15 Q. And was that carried out?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please tell us when you left for Zepa, what day, if you

18 recall.

19 A. On the 17th of July, in the morning.

20 Q. Was that the entire unit, the entire battalion, or were some, if

21 you know, left behind to carry out any other orders?

22 A. The entire battalion went on that mission.

23 Q. Did you by any chance ever receive an order to send anyone to

24 Zvornik, to the Zvornik area during those days?

25 A. I think I did. I can't remember the exact date now. But I think

Page 10089

1 I was to send one platoon to the Zvornik area, but that was not done.

2 Q. Okay. Why was it not done?

3 A. Because we had other commitments connected to our going to Zepa,

4 and the entire unit was required to go there and join in the activities in

5 the area of Zepa.

6 Q. All right. Now, do you recall what the reason was that you were

7 asked to send a size of a platoon to go Zvornik, what the purpose ...

8 A. I don't remember the reason why that was asked.

9 Q. Concretely, were you ever asked to supply men so they could carry

10 out executions that were ongoing in that area or any other area during

11 those critical days?

12 A. No, that was never asked.

13 Q. All right. Now, did you supply men to other areas, either at that

14 time or prior to that time, to cover other areas outside the area of

15 defence?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please tell us where that would have been.

18 A. A smaller part of the forces was in the area of Trnovo, and a part

19 was also engaged in the area of Pjenovac, towards Kladanj.

20 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to stop here before we talk about any

21 other periods and I want to go back now and go through some documents and

22 some maps. So first, with the assistance of the usher, I would like to

23 show you what has been -- what has come into evidence as P406/A. And I

24 believe we can even put one on the ELMO.

25 First of all, do you recognise this document, sir?

Page 10090

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you please tell us, for the record, what is this document.

3 A. It is an order for active combat operations.

4 Q. Do you recall ever seeing this document?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Could you please tell us in this particular document what section,

7 if any, would relate to you and your troops, what paragraph?

8 A. The first point, "Information on the Enemy," is also relevant to

9 us because that was important to me. But specifically related to me are

10 points 5, "Tasks to subordinate units" is the subtitle, which emphasises

11 that the 1st Infantry Battalion is to carry out decisive defence along its

12 current combat positions.

13 Q. Now, I'm going to go step by step.

14 A. All right.

15 Q. Now, was that carried out, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now we'll go to the next sentence, next paragraph. It talks about

18 the use of a large-calibre weapon, a PAM anti-aircraft machine, 76

19 millimetres, self-propelled gun, 30-millimetre guns, and so on. Were

20 these weapons used, sir, the one that are reflected in this exhibit under

21 paragraph 5.1?

22 A. A 30-millimetre gun was out of order. Its brakes were broken, and

23 it was unable to move. It was mounted on an old FAP truck, and it was

24 practically inoperative. The self-propelled vehicle was on its position.

25 Q. All right.

Page 10091

1 A. And there were the PAMs, the anti-aircraft machine-guns. But even

2 there, as far as the self-propelled vehicle is concerned, I had problems

3 with fuel. So it was practically unusable.

4 Q. All right. Now, we know that one had some problems, the other one

5 is practically unusable. Did you in fact use these large-calibre weapons,

6 to your recollection?

7 A. I think we used them on the 12th of July when advancing towards

8 the area of Cizmici village for the purpose of combat support to our

9 activities; intermittently and very briefly we used them.

10 Q. All right. Now, were they directed towards enemy forces, visible

11 enemy forces, on that day, the 12th?

12 A. On that day we did not observe the enemy, but we knew where the

13 enemy positions were. We could see their trenches and we assumed that

14 their points of resistance were there. For instance, the trig point 413

15 frequently opened fire at me, machine-gun fire, and we targeted it most

16 frequently. It was located in the woods but on a dominant feature facing

17 us. And our fire was mostly directed at them, in order to secure the

18 movement of our columns, which were required on the 12th to take hold of

19 Cizmici.

20 Q. All right. But on that day, on that particular day, were you

21 fired upon? You said that you were frequently fired upon from I believe

22 it was trig point 413, but concretely on July 12th do you recall whether

23 you were fired upon before you fired at those observation posts?

24 A. I cannot now precisely recall that detail, but it's quite possible

25 that even that happened.

Page 10092

1 Q. All right. Now, we go to the next paragraph. It says: "Have the

2 reconnaissance platoon ready to repel a possible enemy attack."

3 Did you, sir, have a reconnaissance platoon?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And could you -- did it have a particular name, some insignia that

6 it would be recognisable, like a red beret or something that would have

7 them set off from the rest?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Who were these members of this reconnaissance platoon? Where did

10 they come from?

11 A. They were part of the battalion, and they had been withdrawn from

12 the defence lines so as to give me some minimal backup.

13 Q. All right. Could you please tell us about how many were there.

14 A. About 20, 25.

15 Q. Were they specialised, trained? You know, when we hear

16 reconnaissance, we think of special forces. Were these the sort of folks

17 that we're talking about, highly trained, highly disciplined, highly

18 motivated?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. Now, it then goes on to say --

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you.

23 It then goes on to say that it is "responsible for the link-up

24 with the 4th Battalion."

25 I take it that's what it says. Right?

Page 10093

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Did you link up with the 4th Battalion?

3 A. We did.

4 Q. All right. And do you recall whether this linkage occurred prior

5 to or during those critical days, the 6th through the 11th, or was it at

6 some other point?

7 A. Before.

8 Q. Okay. Now -- then it says that it will "support the Bratunac

9 artillery group from current positions according to the plan and

10 requests."

11 First of all, who are or what is this Bratunac artillery group?

12 A. Those were 76-millimetre guns, as far as I know. Some

13 105-millimetre Howitzers, and I believe there were also some

14 122-millimetre guns.

15 Q. All right. And did you provide any support for them? Were there

16 any requests?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Then it says I believe that your forward

19 command post is supposed to be in this Vresinje sector. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, correct.

21 Q. Now, is that where you set it up?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. All right. Now, could you please tell us when was it that

24 you first saw this particular order.

25 A. This order was brought to me by the chief of staff in person when

Page 10094

1 he came to my unit on the 6th of July.

2 Q. All right. Prior to the 6th of July, were you aware, were you

3 aware, that you would be receiving such an order, an order that would

4 require you to carry out these activities?

5 A. No.

6 Q. All right. Do you recall whether you had attended any meetings

7 prior to the 6th of July that -- where you would have been informed of any

8 activities that were about to commence regarding Srebrenica?

9 A. No.

10 Q. All right. Thank you.

11 Now, I want to show you another document, what has been marked, I

12 believe, for identification purposes as D185. Could you please look at

13 that, sir. Do you recognise it?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Okay. And we may not wish to show the signature, the name on that

16 document, but -- all right. And what do you recognise it to be, sir?

17 A. It is a perfectly regular request for resupply of equipment and

18 materiel.

19 Q. Okay. Now, in looking at this one would suspect that the material

20 that is being requested is in light of perhaps activities that are about

21 to commence. Would I be correct in reaching that conclusion or making

22 that assumption?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why not?

25 A. Because first of all I was not even aware of the activities that

Page 10095

1 followed immediately, not at the time, and in view of the current supplies

2 of ammunition and fuel, tractor fuel, that we had in our unit, this is a

3 quite usual request, a quite normal communication, with the logistical

4 unit under the brigade command.

5 Q. Okay. Well, concretely, sir, can you be a little more specific?

6 I mean, let's look at, for instance, diesel. Here you're asking for 40

7 litres.

8 A. Yes. These are extremely low quantities that I was requesting.

9 If you know that the general situation with fuel in our brigade had always

10 been bad, fuel was always a problem. With this kind of fuel, you can

11 cross 10 kilometres, perhaps, with certain vehicles. And this request

12 emphasises the reason why we were requesting replenishment for the medical

13 unit, for instance. Even under circumstances where there is no fighting,

14 troops can get hurt. And it is quite normal that the medical unit should

15 have fuel to transport the wounded. I mentioned a moment ago that my

16 self-propelled gun was out of fuel, and that is confirmed in this request.

17 In order to have a mobile self-propelled gun in case of an attack, I

18 needed fuel. All that was on my mind at the time. I was expecting at the

19 time an attack from a brigade-sized enemy unit, and I needed this

20 equipment and materiel in order to be able to defend my area.

21 Q. All right. So it's your explanation today, if I can just

22 encapsulate it is that this request --

23 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MS. ISSA: It's totally unnecessary for Mr. Karnavas to put his

Page 10096

1 own interpretation on the explanation. We've heard it. We've all heard

2 the evidence.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll move on, Your Honour.


5 MR. KARNAVAS: No problem.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.


8 Q. Now, I want to show you another document. This has come in. This

9 is marked D149. You may wish to keep D185 there just in case we may need

10 to make reference to it. Perhaps it may be necessary; perhaps not. If I

11 could show you this document; it's dated July 3rd, 1995. You do know

12 Mr. Trisic, do you not, the assistant commander for logistics?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now, is there anything in this document where he's making a

15 request, an urgent request, to the Drina Corps that might be relevant to

16 your request that you made on 4 July 1995?

17 A. It could be relevant. It says explicitly here that he is urgently

18 requesting certain equipment and materiel. I see ammunition, fuel, motor

19 vehicles, et cetera.

20 Q. All right. Well -- but how can he -- his is dated July 3rd.

21 Yours is dated July 4th. How is it that he can forecast what your needs

22 might be?

23 MS. ISSA: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MS. ISSA: That's a totally inappropriate question. It's

Page 10097

1 speculative. I don't see how the witness can answer that. It should have

2 been a question put to Mr. Trisic.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, first of all --


5 MR. KARNAVAS: A question can be inappropriate without being

6 totally inappropriate. It's either inappropriate or it's not, but be that

7 as it may --

8 JUDGE LIU: But you're asking this witness to speculate.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, he's saying that July 3rd might be

10 relevant. The two documents may be related. He's made a request to

11 Trisic who is responsible for these matters. I'm asking him to exercise,

12 you know, his opinion based on the facts on the ground as to whether

13 Mr. Trisic would have known what his needs would have been for him to put

14 in such a request to the Drina Corps. I don't think it's speculative at

15 all.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, first you have to know whether this witness at

17 that time was aware of this document or not.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll go around it another way, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.


21 Q. In determining what materiel you would need, what would you do or

22 who would handle that for you?

23 A. My assistant commander for logistics would deal with that on my

24 behalf.

25 Q. And who would he deal with? Who would he contact?

Page 10098

1 A. He would deal with the assistant commander for logistics at

2 brigade level.

3 Q. Do you know if there was a procedure, if there was, when and if

4 new supplies came in whether the different battalions were informed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And based on that information, that is, assuming that the

7 assistant commander for logistics had informed you that new supplies had

8 come in, what, if anything, would you or your logistics man do based on

9 that information?

10 A. I would submit my request for replenishment for these particular

11 supplies.

12 Q. Thank you. We can go on to another document. Actually, this is a

13 series of documents; they're daily combat reports. And I'm going to start

14 with what has come into evidence as P411. And I'm going to go through

15 these rather quickly so you can comment on the relevant portions.

16 Now, first of all -- do you see, I've just handed you what has

17 been marked as P411. Do you recognise the document, sir?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. And from looking at it, what do you recognise it to be?

20 A. It is a regular or daily combat report.

21 Q. All right. Now, if you could direct our attention to any

22 particular paragraph in this daily combat report that would be relevant to

23 you in particular.

24 A. I cannot distinguish the date here. I cannot find it. Maybe

25 there is a better copy.

Page 10099

1 Q. All right. Now, you say you cannot -- which date are we talking

2 about? The date when this document was generated? I can assure you, at

3 least based on what we know, that this is 6 July 1995. And you may want

4 to look at the bottom, towards the signature.

5 A. I found it.

6 Q. Okay. Now --

7 A. It's clear now. What is relevant to me is para 1, which mentions

8 that the enemy had opened fire at the right flank of the 2nd Infantry

9 Battalion and the left flank of the 1st Infantry Battalion from trig point

10 413 and carried out provocations along the entire defence line of the

11 brigade, which means that the paragraph specifies the left flank of my

12 battalion.

13 Q. All right. Now -- and if I may go back to what you stated

14 earlier, when you indicated that there were occasions when you were fired

15 upon, was this the same trig point, 413?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Now, is there anything else in this particular daily combat

18 report dated 6 July 1995 that you would like to draw our attention to that

19 you find worthy of noting?

20 A. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that in my view

21 this report was not written by the commander because this is simply not

22 his phraseology. What you find here is the word "Turk converts," and

23 that's not the kind of word he used. I think, therefore, that this was

24 written by somebody else.

25 Q. All right. Anything else? All right --

Page 10100

1 A. No, nothing else.

2 Q. Okay. Let's go on to the next document, and this would be P412/A.

3 In your case, it would be /B, since we're talking about the Srpski

4 version. Again, it's maybe rather rough to read, but if you could look at

5 it and please tell us what this is.

6 A. This is a document similar to the previous one, only with

7 different content, another daily combat report.

8 Q. What is the date on this one, sir?

9 A. At the bottom of the page one can see that it's dated the 7th of

10 July, 1995.

11 Q. All right. Now, could you direct our attention to any particular

12 paragraph in this daily combat report that is dated 7 July 1995 that is

13 relevant to you and your troops?

14 A. It is mentioned here TT.413 again.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. And it also says that enemy opened fire at our positions, just

17 like on the previous day.

18 Q. Now, did that occur, sir? To your recollection, did the enemy

19 open fire toward your positions on that particular day, that is 7th July,

20 1995?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. And if we go into paragraph 2, it says: "Our forces

23 returned the fire and also fired artillery at the enemy's firing

24 positions."

25 So, question: Is that referring to you or to your troops, that

Page 10101

1 is, returning the fire?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How do you know?

4 A. Because I didn't have any artillery weapons, so my forces could

5 only have fired from infantry weapons and return fire aiming at certain

6 sectors.

7 Q. All right. So from that you can conclude -- you're concluding

8 that this would not have been you because you did not have artillery?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Well, what sort of -- other than, you know, the regular weapons

11 that the soldiers carried, what sort of heavy weaponry did you and your

12 men have at that particular time?

13 A. With the exception of small arms, we also had 82-millimetre and

14 120-millimetre mortars.

15 Q. All right. Well, what's the difference? Can't we conclude that

16 that's sort of in the same ballpark range of artillery, or are we talking

17 about different strength, different impact?

18 A. Well, according to our rules, this is not considered artillery,

19 both from the point of view of range and also according to the

20 establishment, because they are assigned to infantry battalions. This is

21 not a separate, an independent, unit, but it's rather part of an infantry

22 battalion. The range of these weapons is very small. And what I would

23 like to say is that I had an extreme shortage of ammunition for these

24 particular weapons.

25 Q. Okay. Those are the mortars we are talking about?

Page 10102

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Just so I'm clear, just so I'm clear, did you fire at all any

3 mortars on the 6th or the 7th?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Now, I want to -- is there anything else about this

6 document that catches your attention that might be worthy of commenting

7 on?

8 A. This document is pretty unclear -- I mean, the copy is very bad,

9 so I just cannot discern what it says, in fact.

10 Q. All right. Okay. Let's move on to the next document. This has

11 come into evidence as P413. You will be looking at /B, while we look at

12 413/A. Would you please look at this, sir, and tell us what this document

13 is.

14 A. This is a daily combat report dated 8th of July.

15 Q. Again, as with the previous two documents, can you focus our

16 attention on any particular paragraph that might be relevant to you and

17 your troops?

18 A. The point where it says that officers are either at their forward

19 command positions or at the battalion command, and partly it is relevant

20 in item 1 where it says that the enemy launched a diversion or a mock

21 attack from the direction of Kosa on the right flank of my 4th Infantry

22 Battalion.

23 Q. Well, first of all, what is a mock attack?

24 A. It's an attack, the purpose of which is to engage certain enemy

25 forces in order to divert the attention of the enemy. It's a kind of

Page 10103

1 cunning move, if I may say so. So the point, the focus, of the attack is

2 not to capture, to occupy, certain axis or a sector, but rather to create

3 a diversion in order to focus the attention of the enemy on another axis.

4 Q. All right. Anything else about this particular combat report?

5 A. There is something illogical, in my view, and that is towards the

6 end of this report where it says -- where it speaks about the conception

7 of 130-millimetre bullets, 90-millimetre bullets.

8 Q. What's wrong with that?

9 A. It seems to me to be illogical that -- because, as per

10 establishment, we didn't have this kind of ammunition, either in that

11 period or after.

12 Q. And we're speaking about the first two items that are listed --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. That would be on paragraph 6 of this document, which is

15 P413. Don't worry about the P413, that's the identification number of the

16 document itself. We're talking about bullets, 130-millimetre, and bullets

17 90-millimetre. Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right. Let's move on to the next document. If you can please

20 take a look at P415. We'll be looking at /A while you look at /B. Would

21 you please tell us what this document is.

22 A. This is a daily combat report dated 9th of July, 1995.

23 Q. And as with the previous three documents, could you please direct

24 our attention to the appropriate paragraph that is relevant to you and

25 your troops.

Page 10104

1 A. The paragraph that was relevant for us is item 5 where it says:

2 "Injured/Wounded." This paragraph reads that during the active combat

3 operations, my battalion suffered casualties in terms that the people

4 named here were wounded and one of them died. And it says that he died

5 before he was transported to the medical centre.

6 Q. All right. And this is in relation to what you had told us

7 earlier about the activities that you had carried out on 9th -- 9 July

8 1995?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now, again if we could look at the paragraph number 6,

11 "Consumption," that section. Again, is there anything there that seems

12 illogical in your opinion?

13 A. Yes, there is. Bullet 100-millimetres, it could only be a bullet

14 for an anti-armour gun, and it can also be for a T-55 tank. We also

15 didn't have this kind of weapons. Next, shells, 90-millimetre Panzer and

16 90-millimetre TF, were also something we didn't need because we didn't

17 have that kind of weapons. I also failed to mention bullets 30/2, which

18 are used by anti-aircraft guns known as Praga. We also didn't have such

19 weapons. In other words, I don't understand why this report contains

20 consumption of the weapons that we actually didn't have, as per

21 establishment in our brigade.

22 Q. All right. And if you could refresh our memory again before we go

23 into any more documents. Again, what was your specialised training in the

24 military, in what area?

25 A. My specialty is artillery.

Page 10105

1 Q. So I take it in light of that background you would know about

2 these sorts of matters that we're speaking about?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And then lastly if we could go up the page to paragraph 2,

5 is there anything in this particular paragraph which would give us an

6 impression as to your whereabouts on this particular day?

7 A. It says here the chief of staff was in the area of responsibility,

8 which I think is a wrong term because a battalion doesn't have an area of

9 responsibility, at least I don't know of any such case. The same applies

10 to the brigade. So it says the chief of staff is, as I understand it, in

11 the area which is covered by my battalion.

12 Q. Okay. All right. Now, let's go on to the next document, P416.

13 And again, you'll be looking at 416/B, while we look at 416/A. Could you

14 please tell us what this document is, sir.

15 A. This is a daily combat report dated 10th of July.

16 Q. And as with the previous daily reports that we've looked at, could

17 you please focus our attention to the appropriate paragraph that is

18 pertinent to you and your troops.

19 A. Item 1 which says that "enemy carried out combat activities all

20 along the brigade defence line" is the one pertaining to my unit. And

21 probably this implies that the enemy had committed acts of provocations,

22 as they had done before.

23 Q. All right. Is there anything else?

24 A. Also where it says that the chief of staff is in the

25 1st Battalion.

Page 10106

1 Q. All right. Was he at that point in time, to your recollection?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And was he doing anything in particular during those days while he

4 was there?

5 A. He was surveying the situation in the battalion, how ready we were

6 for defence in the defence area that we covered. He was issuing certain

7 directives and guidelines.

8 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.

9 Now, I think we'll go on to another document. And this is what

10 has been marked and entered into exhibit as D131/1. If you could look at

11 that. Now, recognising that you did not generate this document, that is a

12 document that was prepared or at least signed by Trisic, the assistant

13 commander for logistics on 12 July 1995, could you please tell us whether

14 there are any items listed from 1 to 17 that are relevant to your unit or

15 your troops.

16 A. This deals with the consumption of materiel and equipment, and it

17 has been compiled in the form of a report submitted by the assistant

18 commander for logistics for this specific period of time.

19 Q. All right. Do you recognise any items on this list that would

20 have been dispensed to you or your men during this period, that is, from

21 the 10th to the 12th?

22 A. I cannot say that among these 35-odd thousand bullets were the

23 bullets fired by some of my soldiers from their positions. But if you

24 allow me, I would like to draw your attention to what specifically says

25 this -- the previous reports referred to when it comes to the consumption

Page 10107

1 of ammunition.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. Item 6, "bullet 30 millimetres". This confirms that we are

4 talking about gun or cannon 30/2 known as Praga. Item 7 is not quite

5 clear in the copy that I have in front of me. Then item number 12,

6 "bullet 90 millimetres" which refers to M36 self-propelled gun, and it

7 says specifically so here. This is also one of the weapons that we didn't

8 have, as per establishment. Next item, "bullet 100 millimetres" confirms

9 that this refers to a tank, because T stands for a tank, and the number is

10 55. Likewise, we didn't have such weapons in our unit. Next one, "bullet

11 105 Howitzer," we did have those, however "bullet 122 millimetres" also

12 indicates it's used for Howitzers, not guns, but this is the type of

13 Howitzers that we didn't have.

14 Q. You told us earlier that "bullet 30 millimetres" that says cannon

15 30/2, you did not have the weapon for the consumption of those bullets.

16 Correct?

17 A. Yes, we didn't have this kind of weapon known as Praga.

18 Q. And just for your information item 7 says: "Bullet 30

19 millimetres, cannon with MiG. Expansion unknown."

20 A. With MiG. That's a cannon with -- that is an explanation for an

21 airplane, but it's not clear to me either.

22 Q. Okay. Just drawing your attention lastly to 16. On your -- in

23 light of your experience with this particular brigade, do you feel

24 confident in commenting on item 16 where it talks about diesel, the

25 disbursement of 3.039 litres of diesel during this two-day period?

Page 10108

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa?

2 MS. ISSA: That's a very broad question, Your Honour. We don't

3 know what the question is. Commenting on what? In respect of what?

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm not sure whether there is any vehicles in

5 that battalion. You know, there has to be some connections with this

6 witness, you know.

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted) I'm asking him in light of his knowledge and experience in

9 being in that brigade, he would have known, as he knows about all these

10 other items, whether this particular brigade had the sort of equipment

11 that would have consumed 3.000 litres in a period of two days.

12 JUDGE LIU: You may put this question to this witness, but I am

13 not quite sure we could get an answer.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I'll lay some foundation, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.


17 Q. You began serving with the Bratunac Brigade about what time?

18 A. From the 1st of April, 1993.

19 Q. Okay. So by July 12, 1995, we're talking a little bit over two

20 years being in the Bratunac Brigade. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, in light of your position, the position that you held within

23 the brigade, and in light of having served in that brigade for a period of

24 two years, do you feel competent enough to comment on the number of

25 vehicles the brigade would have had at this particular time?

Page 10109

1 A. I can say that it had a few vehicles.

2 Q. Now, in your opinion - that's all we can ask for - but in your

3 opinion, is this figure of 3.039 litres of diesel being consumed in a

4 period of two days, is that consistent with the number of vehicles that

5 you knew the Bratunac Brigade had and was able to actually -- that were

6 actually functioning and capable of consuming that amount of petrol in two

7 days?

8 A. I don't think that was possible.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you. We can move on to the next document.

10 Now, if I could show you another series of reports starting with

11 exhibit P441/A. You will be looking at /B. If you could look at this

12 document, sir, and please tell us what is it.

13 A. It's a daily combat report dated 12th July.

14 Q. 12 July 1995. Correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. All right. Now, as with the previous daily combat report, if you

17 could assist us in focusing our attention to the relevant paragraph.

18 A. There is something really illogical in this report in my view, and

19 that is that there is no mention of what our units did specifically on

20 that day. There is no mention here that together with other -- with the

21 2nd Infantry Battalion we carried out certain tactical shifting of troops.

22 There is also no mention of the lines reached. Generally, my impression

23 is that someone compiled this report in a haste, and this shows that in

24 that period we did have certain problems, particularly in terms of

25 coordination among our respective units and activities, in that we needed

Page 10110

1 some more specific instructions as to what to do at specific times.

2 Q. All right. If I could focus your attention to paragraph 2 in the

3 English version, I don't know how it comes out in your language, but it

4 says: "Our forces are mopping up the enclave and preventing the enemy

5 from breaking through in the above-mentioned direction."

6 First of all, this "mopping up," what does that mean, to mop up,

7 if there is such a thing?

8 A. It's a jargon term. This is not a regular military term. And I

9 can't say -- can't understand specifically what the author meant by this

10 in this particular report.

11 Q. You can or you cannot?

12 A. I cannot.

13 Q. Okay. All right. Is there anything else that you find illogical

14 or out of order in this particular daily combat report dated 12 July 1995?

15 A. What strikes me - and that even more corroborates my previous

16 claim that somebody really wrote this in a hurry - is the statement under

17 item 5 where it says that we will submit details of consumption of

18 ammunition and fuel later. In the previous reports, this had always been

19 very specifically stated; however, in this report there is no mention of

20 that. And I don't understand the reason why.

21 Q. Okay. If we could go on to the next document, P469/B. And just

22 for the record, we do appreciate the enormous amount of assistance from

23 the usher, who is traversing back and forth with these documents.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Before we get to this document, Mr. President, I'm

25 not used to the afternoon hours. Is it time or am I mistaken?

Page 10111

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's time, but if you feel it's necessary we

2 could continue.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well --

4 JUDGE LIU: Until you finish this document.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, there are some other documents that go along

6 with this document. And so we can break at this point, because I'm afraid

7 that it will go on for at least another 10 minutes to finish the other two

8 documents that accompany this.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So we'll have a break and we'll resume at 10

10 minutes to 6.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 5.50 p.m.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, please continue.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. Okay, sir, I believe we left off as we were about to launch into

16 the daily combat report dated 13 July 1995. Is that correct? Do you have

17 it in front of you?

18 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Yes. And for the record, I'm referring to what is marked as P469.

20 Now, in looking at this daily combat report, as you have with the previous

21 ones, could you direct our attention to the pertinent paragraph as it

22 relates to you and your men.

23 A. I would draw your attention to this reference that says that we

24 are searching the terrain. In fact, we were not searching the terrain

25 that day. The area of Milacevici and Babuljica villages was the territory

Page 10112

1 ahead of us.

2 Q. All right. Well, can you account for such a mistake in this daily

3 combat report and why would they include something that's not accurate?

4 A. The person who wrote this, and I suppose that was the duty

5 officer, the duty operative officer, was not in possession of specific

6 information as to our whereabouts and our current activities. That could

7 be an explanation, or maybe the duty officer thought that it was his duty

8 to write this report this way as --

9 MS. ISSA: Your Honour --

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

11 MS. ISSA: I'm objecting to that. That's totally speculative and

12 it's a conclusion that I don't believe the witness is in a position to

13 make.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I did not see this battalion the

15 witness was belonging to was mentioned in this document. I believe that

16 this document is talking about the whole brigade.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: If I could go back, Your Honour, I'll --

18 Q. Looking at this particular document, which of the seven paragraphs

19 that are numbered are related to your battalion specifically, if any of

20 them?

21 A. Well, looking at this document I suppose that para 2 is relevant.

22 "During the search of Milacevici and Babuljica villages, our forces did

23 not meet any resistance." It's true that we did not meet any resistance,

24 but as to major movements of our forces, we were not actually searching

25 the terrain. We were linking up or joining up with the 2nd Infantry

Page 10113

1 Battalion. Somebody could have interpreted that as a search of the

2 terrain, although these are two different actions, search of the terrain

3 as opposed to joining up.

4 Q. All right. Just to be on the safe side, which paragraph of the

5 seven were you referring to?

6 A. Item 1.

7 Q. Okay. And so what you're telling us is that item 1 is not

8 accurate, at least to the best of your recollection?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. If we could go on to the next report. I want to show

11 you now what has been marked as P485. We're looking at /A; you're looking

12 at /B. Could you please look at this, sir.

13 A. This is a daily combat report dated the 14th of July, 1995.

14 Q. All right. And is there any particular paragraph that you want to

15 draw our attention to that relates specifically to your battalion?

16 A. In para 1, reference is made to the terrain where our forces were

17 doing a search. And it says that no enemy forces were spotted, nor did we

18 come across any enemy; that could be a reference to me and it probably

19 was. On that day I did not come across or had any contact with any enemy

20 forces.

21 Q. All right. And on that particular day, were you searching the

22 terrain?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So is this accurate?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10114

1 Q. All right. Is there anything else that you want to draw our

2 attention to on this particular one?

3 A. Maybe the point where it says that on the territory which our

4 brigade was supposed to cover in an operative way, there was no danger or

5 there was danger of enemy attack, enemy surprise attack, which is in line

6 with what I thought, namely that we had to be ready and prevent any

7 surprises.

8 Q. All right. And again, before I move from this document to the

9 next, drawing your attention to paragraph 2 it talks about a particular

10 order, does it not, with respect to searching and clearing the terrain?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And is it your understanding, sir, that on this particular day,

13 that is 14 July 1995, you and your men were --

14 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MS. ISSA: That's clearly leading.


18 Q. Did you on this particular day, 14 July 1995, carry out any

19 searching activities, as reflected in paragraph 2 pursuant to an order

20 numbered 157/5?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you.

23 Now, speaking of that order perhaps it would be an opportune time

24 to go to that. So I would like to draw your attention to what has been

25 marked and entered into evidence as P472. This will be the first document

Page 10115

1 that we look at. Now, from the previous document that I had just shown

2 you, if you may recall, it said that the order was numbered 4-157-5. In

3 looking at this document, sir --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. -- would this be the order itself that the previous document,

6 that is, Exhibit P485 shown to you, was referring to?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. Now, if you would please look at it for a second, and

9 if you could please tell us, first of all, what is this order for?

10 A. It is an order to search the terrain.

11 Q. From whom?

12 A. It is unclear who signed it, but I suppose it is Major General

13 Radislav Krstic.

14 Q. All right. And to whom is it directed?

15 A. In the beginning of the document, it is indicated that it was

16 directed towards the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, 1st Milici Light

17 Infantry Brigade, and the Skelani Independent Battalion.

18 Q. All right. Now, and then in looking at this particular document

19 without going into any great details, which of the six enumerated

20 paragraphs concern the Bratunac Brigade?

21 A. The document is poorly legible, but para 2 seems to be

22 relevant -- no, para 1, sorry, para 1.

23 Q. All right. Now -- and are you able to at least make out the areas

24 that you are being asked to -- that the Bratunac Brigade is being asked to

25 search, or would you want me to read the English translation for you?

Page 10116

1 A. If you please, because the document is illegible.

2 Q. Okay. All right. Under paragraph 1 it says: "The 1st Light

3 Infantry Brigade, Bratunac Brigade, shall search the terrain of the former

4 Srebrenica enclave up to the following line: Ravni Buljim. Excluded;

5 Zvijezda, trig point 906." I would have practiced that, had I known I was

6 going to be reading this.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Siljato Brdo, trig point 901; Slapovici village along Zeleni Jadar

9 river bank up to Zeleni Jadar bridge excluded."

10 Okay. Now, I want to show you the next document, which is P483

11 which has come into evidence. And if you look at this. And you may want

12 to keep -- you may want to have handy the previous document as well just

13 there, just in case. All right. Now, do you recognise what this document

14 is, sir?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And what is this document?

17 A. It is an order for terrain search.

18 Q. All right. And which of the enumerated seven paragraphs relate to

19 your battalion?

20 A. Para 1.

21 Q. All right. Now, if you compare paragraph 1 of the document that

22 I've given you, which is dated 14 July 1995, and it's P483, with the

23 previous document which was dated July 13, 1995, and that would be P472,

24 the areas which you are being asked to search, do they correspond roughly,

25 generally, in principle, with the areas which are in the order by

Page 10117

1 Major General Krstic?

2 A. This is just an attempt to translate this order by Radislav Krstic

3 into operational terms, but in the execution part there are some illogical

4 terms. And it is not quite clear.

5 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you a map, and this is D186 for

6 identification. If you could please take a look at it, keeping the

7 documents that you have in front of you, especially the one dated 14 July.

8 If I could first show you this document which has been marked for

9 identification as D187. Perhaps we can put this -- well, first you can

10 look at it and then we'll take it from there step by step.

11 First of all, do you recognise this map, sir?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And are there any notations on this particular map which you

14 recognise?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please tell us what are those notations, in general?

17 We're going to get into --

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MS. ISSA: I'm wondering if, Your Honour, perhaps we can put this

20 on the ELMO so we can follow along.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes --

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, Mr. President, Mr. President, I can

23 understand how the Prosecutor is anxious for us to get to the map;

24 however, first, I don't want the gentleman's signature and name to be

25 appearing on the ELMO since this is a protected witness. I wish for him

Page 10118

1 first to identify the document to make sure that this is the map he has

2 marked. And then from there we were going to go on to the specific areas.

3 JUDGE LIU: We have already taken some measures that anything on

4 the ELMO will not be available on the public TV outside this courtroom.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

6 Q. Would you please -- we're going to put this map on that little

7 projector; we call it ELMO here. The gentleman is going to take the map

8 from you; he's going to put it on the ELMO. And you're going to be able

9 to see it on the screen. If we can open up the map so we can see where

10 your signature line is. Delicately, please.

11 First of all, if we could please --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


14 Q. If we could gently look at this map. On this particular map, do

15 you see your signature, sir?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. And is there a date by your signature?

18 A. There is.

19 Q. And could you please tell us what that date is?

20 A. The 15th December, 1999.

21 Q. Okay. And could you please tell us -- this map has some markings.

22 Are those your markings, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please tell us when you made those markings.

25 A. On that date.

Page 10119

1 Q. Before whom?

2 A. Before the gentleman from the Prosecution.

3 Q. All right. So -- and where was that, just so we have a record of

4 that?

5 A. At the international motel in Banja Luka.

6 Q. Okay. All right. So these markings were made when you were

7 giving a statement to the Prosecutors. Correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. All right. Now, if you can first of all -- we're going to go from

10 the general to the specific. So first of all, please explain to us what

11 these markings are that you've made. And the usher there is going to

12 gently slide the map as you describe the points, the various points, on

13 the map. So first, what are we looking at that you have marked on this

14 particular map?

15 A. On this map I marked the defence lines primarily of my battalion,

16 and then those of other battalions of our brigade.

17 Q. Okay. Now, you -- we're going to give you a pointer, and you're

18 going to have to point on the map itself.

19 A. All right.

20 Q. Do it rather delicately. If you could point to us exactly where

21 is the 1st Battalion on this map.

22 A. The 1st Infantry Battalion was on the line from Lomanac Brook,

23 including that brook, then Pajici village. Trig point 405 Lemesac. Then

24 there is an interruption in the line. The line is broken perhaps because

25 maps existed in different editions, in different years. And they do not

Page 10120

1 continue on to each other. And then follows trig point 532. And these

2 two maps were given me separately, to mark them. So here I made an error

3 regarding the positions overlooking Blazevici. The positions were not

4 exactly where I drew them, but were from trig point 555, excluding trig

5 point 555. There is an old dirt road here, and it ends here at

6 Ilina Brdo, Ilina Hill.

7 Q. Now, if you could correct the map, since you indicated that these

8 were two separate maps that are now stapled -- we Scotch-taped them

9 together. If you could make that slight correction and do it here in open

10 court, gently.

11 A. [Witness complies]

12 Q. Okay. And perhaps for that little stretch of the terrain, we can

13 even have you initial it so we know that you indeed made that marking.

14 Maybe put a date on it, too. I think we're on July -- June, June 1.

15 A. [Witness complies]

16 Q. Okay. Now, if we could just go through some of the other markings

17 briefly, just very briefly. Tell us what else you have marked on this

18 map. We don't need to know the exact trig points, but what else does this

19 map have?

20 A. On this map we see other markings designating the areas of defence

21 or defence lines held by other battalions. Markings in green indicate

22 positions which I took on the 12th of July and where I stayed all up to

23 the 16th. On the 16th, we moved and the green arrows show in which

24 direction we moved and what we did.

25 Q. Okay. Well, at least I'm having some difficulties seeing the

Page 10121

1 green arrows. But before we get to that, do you also have on this map,

2 have you marked the other battalions, where they're located?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Could you please just show us, if we just move the map

5 briefly, and you could show us where the other battalions are as you have

6 reflected them on this particular map. Where is the 2nd Battalion?

7 A. The 2nd Battalion was positioned from Lomanac Brook, exclusive;

8 then trig point 436, Ladja; then trig point 438, towards the so-called

9 Zuti Most; then trig point 773, Caus; trig point 777, Obadi. And I

10 believe this point here is the road to Rudnik. Up to here was the

11 position of the 2nd Battalion, exclusive of the last point.

12 Q. And could you please show us where the 3rd Battalion would have

13 been.

14 A. I was not really familiar with the position of the 3rd Battalion,

15 but I drew my assumptions as to where they were deployed. Across this

16 road, then the lead and zinc mine, three kings, trig point 861; trig point

17 101.3, quartz; and further on towards trig point 906. But I cannot be

18 quite certain about this because they were far away from me, at least that

19 we see on the map.

20 Q. All right. Now, in an earlier order we saw where you had to link

21 up with the 4th Battalion. Where was the 4th Battalion for you to link

22 up?

23 A. The 4th Battalion was deployed between trig point 555, Ilina Bara,

24 across TT.651 I think in the -- in another map it's called Ornice feature.

25 And they had a kind of semi-circular defence line here pointing towards

Page 10122

1 right for the simple reason that this was an interim area between the

2 Milici and Bratunac Brigades. And this is a stretch as the crow flies of

3 about 2 or 3 kilometres.

4 Q. All right. Now, looking at this map before we discuss the -- this

5 particular order and the areas which you were ordered to search, could you

6 please point out where your command post would have been. Where was the

7 command post of the 1st Battalion?

8 A. Are you asking me about the 6th of July or before that date?

9 Q. Well, let's start with the 6th of July, because that's the period

10 that we're really interested in.

11 A. All right. It was located approximately here in the Magasici or

12 Bozici village sector, close to a house.

13 Q. Okay. Now, is there a trig point or something that you can direct

14 our attention to?

15 A. Well, there is no specific trig point. This is an old map and it

16 doesn't show very clearly that there was a rather good-quality dirt road.

17 And we were billeted in the houses, in the Serbian houses there.

18 Q. Now, what's the name of the village again?

19 A. The wider area is called Bozici and some people call it Magasici.

20 Q. And what does the map reflect so we have a point of reference?

21 A. The map says "Bozici."

22 Q. All right. Now, could you mark it -- could you mark that area

23 perhaps with an "X," so at least later when we're looking at this map we

24 know that the X denotes the forward command post on the 6th of July, 1995.

25 A. I apologise, but this was not our forward command post; it was our

Page 10123

1 command post.

2 Q. I apologise.

3 A. [Witness complies]

4 Q. Okay. Now, if you could please show us where it was that you

5 noticed the column. You said that on the night of the 10th and on the day

6 of the 11th, you noticed a column heading in a particular direction.

7 Where would that -- where was that column located?

8 A. On the 10th, we noticed smaller groups, at least what we were able

9 to see was not a major column. It was rather groups and smaller columns.

10 And we noticed them in the Jaglici village sector.

11 Q. Okay. Could you put a circle around that area so we know that the

12 circle would reflect where the column was when you first saw it.

13 A. [Witness complies]

14 Q. Now, could you please show us in which direction was this column

15 travelling in.

16 A. It was travelling, as indicated by this arrow, towards this

17 interim space that existed here much before these events took place.

18 Q. All right. So that would be sort of in a north-western --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. All right. And from the distance where your men were

21 located, again could you please tell us how many kilometres are we

22 speaking about.

23 A. As the crow flies, if you take these points from which they could

24 be observed, I specifically saw them from this point of Vresinje. So let

25 us measure this because we have a scale on the map. Approximately 4

Page 10124

1 kilometres, as the crow flies.

2 Q. All right. Now, you said "from this point." Which point again

3 are we speaking about? Is that your forward command post as opposed to a

4 command post?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, could you please put a "Y" at the forward command post so

7 that we know that --

8 A. [Witness complies].

9 Q. It looks more like an "x," but okay. All right.

10 Now, I want to direct your attention back to the order itself.

11 Okay. And this is the order of 14 July 1995, where you're being asked to

12 search the terrain pursuant to an earlier order that was issued by

13 General Krstic.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, in looking at paragraph 1 you indicated that it was rather

16 unclear or there was -- you had some problems with it. First of all,

17 could you please tell us what is paragraph 1 direct -- what area is

18 paragraph 1 directing you to search? Could you show us on the map.

19 A. [No interpretation]

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, we don't have the translation --

21 MS. ISSA: I'm sorry. I can't hear.


23 Q. First of all, I need you to slow down a little bit and -- so take

24 it from the beginning step by step, slowly. The first part says -- let me

25 read it, you follow along, and then you point to us.

Page 10125

1 It says that: "The 1st Infantry Battalion searched the terrain

2 from the area of the former enclave of Srebrenica on the right side." It

3 says: "The junction of Bratunac/Konjevic Polje."

4 Then it says "Jezestica Road, K316."

5 Now, could you please show us, what is this referring to?

6 A. As I said, it's a rather complicated explanation for one point

7 only. And one might become confused with this. But as it -- as I see it,

8 it could only mean the trig point 316, and I'm pointing at it now. Then

9 the next feature mentioned here is trig point 555 exclusive. Here it is.

10 555, exclusive. The next feature is Lupoglav, trig point 675, and this is

11 where it is. The next feature is village of Susnjari exclusive. So this

12 is this right-hand or left-hand side --

13 Q. Let me stop you. Polako. Slowly. We have to -- now, it says

14 here Bratunac/Konjevic Polje/Zesica road. Where is Konjevic Polje on this

15 map?

16 A. I must find it --

17 Q. I know, but we're going to have to pull it down. Right around --

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. That's the -- that area.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And where is 316? Without moving the map, please, I think we

22 might be able to handle this.

23 A. Here it is.

24 Q. Where is it?

25 A. Elevation 316.

Page 10126

1 Q. Okay. Now -- well, let me focus your attention here because I'm a

2 little confused. What does Konjevic Polje have to do with point 316? We

3 looked at this order. It says: "Bratunac/Konjevic Polje/Zesica road

4 316."

5 What does Konjevic Polje have anything to do with 316?

6 A. Only in the sense that somebody wanted to explain that this is a

7 junction of the roads which partly relies on this Bratunac/Konjevic Polje

8 section of the road. And in the next segment it may -- it -- they made it

9 more specific by saying that they were referring to the village of

10 Jezestica, elevation 316.

11 Q. Okay. Now, before we get to the next section, pursuant to this

12 order as you understood it and as you are explaining it to us today, were

13 you being asked to search any part of the terrain from Konjevic Polje,

14 where you pointed out at the top of the map, to 316?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Now, concretely speaking, where was the starting point

17 of the searching of this terrain?

18 A. I would like to say only that this is a border of a whole zone and

19 it's not a starting point when we speak about trig point 316. The

20 starting point was from the positions we had been holding up until the

21 15th. So from these positions, in fact, we started the search.

22 Q. All right. Now I'm a little confused. Where is 316?

23 A. Here it is.

24 Q. Could you mark that, please, with a circle.

25 A. [Witness complies]

Page 10127

1 Q. Now, that's behind your line, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would there be any need for you to search behind your line?

4 A. There wouldn't.

5 Q. Why wouldn't there be, just to make sure that we understand that?

6 A. Because at the time it would have been nonsensical to leave the

7 existing position to someone else and the area that I have got hold of,

8 and to withdraw backwards, that would be superfluous and totally

9 unreasonable.

10 Q. All right. I think I'm clear on that point now. So getting back,

11 your starting point would have been where, at least pursuant to this

12 particular order, albeit it says 316, where would you have concretely

13 started your searching?

14 A. Concretely under this order, I should have started it from 316 up

15 to the Lomanac Brook and the line that travels between the two points.

16 Q. All right. If we could move the map a little bit over. Where --

17 on this particular day, where are your troops located?

18 A. They were located here in this section between trig point 555,

19 Ilina Bara over Vresina, Cizmici, up to Pale.

20 Q. All right. Now, let me stop you. The line that we see right now

21 that exists, that was the -- your defensive zone, was it not?

22 A. Yes, it was.

23 Q. Now, at what point -- I believe you did tell us already whether it

24 was the 12th or the 13th, at some point you moved some of your troops.

25 Could you please tell us where you moved them.

Page 10128

1 A. I moved them only in this section between the Lomanac Brook via

2 Lemesac. There is a feature called Stolice. And up to trig point 532.

3 So approximately three infantry companies were moved. The remaining

4 units, the 1st and the 2nd Infantry Companies remained at their positions

5 for several reasons.

6 Q. All right. Now, maybe you can take the marker there and first of

7 all, with an arrow, point in which direction the troops would have moved.

8 And secondly, perhaps with a dotted line, show us where they had actually

9 moved to. So the dotted line would reflect where you moved the troops to,

10 the arrow -- the direction in which they moved.

11 A. [Witness complies]

12 Q. And could you please tell us what day did you leave -- did you

13 move and which day did they arrive at this position.

14 A. We moved to these positions on the 12th of July.

15 Q. So perhaps you could put 12 July there so we know.

16 A. [Witness complies]

17 Q. Now, concretely speaking, on the 14th of July, 1995, when you

18 received this order, are your troops in the location as we see it now,

19 that is, the 1st and the 2nd and the dotted line which your troops moved

20 to on the 12th of July, 1995?

21 A. I would also like to add that on the 12th of July we didn't have

22 this particular section; we failed to link up with the 2nd Battalion. We

23 did that only on the 13th, this shorter section between here and here.

24 Q. Okay. So -- all right. So that would be the two last sections

25 that you have, the two last dotted lines?

Page 10129

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Now, getting back to this particular order, if you could

3 now show us what areas again you're being asked to search. You told us

4 about 316 and how that did not make any sense because you would have to

5 give up territory that you occupied only to re-search it, knowing that

6 there's no enemy behind you. So where is 555? Where is that trig point?

7 A. Trig point 555 is here.

8 Q. All right. And where is trig point 675?

9 A. Lupoglav.

10 Q. Okay. And where is the village of Sandici? It says up to the

11 village of Sandici.

12 A. It's somewhere here on this road. Yes, here it is.

13 Q. No, I'm sorry. I've got it -- I have it wrong. It says up to the

14 village of Sandjari?

15 A. Susnjari.

16 Q. Susnjari, yes.

17 A. Susnjari is here.

18 Q. And then it says -- on the left side. And then it says Lomanac

19 Brook.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. And then it says: "The village Pale up to the trig point

22 906." And then it talks about your command post will be in -- where is

23 the command post, according to this order?

24 A. The command post was in Cizmici, here.

25 Q. Okay. Now, if I could get you to please -- I don't know if we

Page 10130

1 have another colour, but to perhaps draw the line in actuality of what you

2 were asked to search, that is starting with 316, even though in your

3 opinion it doesn't make sense.

4 A. Shall I just mark the line or the zone?

5 Q. Well, let's start with the line first. Let's keep it simple.

6 A. So this is this point.

7 Q. Okay. But I'm talking about the entire -- under the order, 316,

8 555, 687, 906. What is the area, the geographical area, that you're being

9 asked to search?

10 A. Then I'll mark the whole area.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. This is Susnjari.

13 Q. How far are you supposed to go now, because it looks like a

14 horseshoe?

15 A. Well, from these starting lines -- in fact, this left flank should

16 stretch some 8 or 9 kilometres. The right flank would be 5 to 6

17 kilometres long, in roads.

18 Q. All right. Now, in actuality, sir, based on your experience, your

19 knowledge of the terrain, knowing the number of men that you had, was the

20 task that you were being given, the searching of this particular terrain

21 as designated, was it realistic?

22 A. No, it wasn't realistic.

23 Q. All right. Aside from the fact that this order was asking you to

24 search terrain that was clear and free, in other words go backwards only

25 to go forwards again --

Page 10131

1 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I'm objecting to that. It's totally

2 argumentative --

3 MR. KARNAVAS: It's not argumentative --

4 MS. ISSA: And it's also misstating the evidence.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. McCloskey doesn't need to whisper. He can

6 stand up and object for Ms. Issa.

7 JUDGE LIU: No, we have rules here.

8 Mr. Karnavas, I fail to see your point in asking the witness to

9 mark on those maps, because the witness testified that they had no

10 prisoners, no weapons during this period.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand that, Your Honour. One of the reasons

12 why I'm asking the gentleman to mark it is because, you see, when we see

13 Konjevic Polje it's -- for the Prosecution it's like a bull seeing red and

14 they head for that. And what I'm trying to demonstrate is that this

15 particular order, even though it has Konjevic Polje in it, has nothing to

16 do with Konjevic Polje. And actually I'm showing where the area was that

17 this gentleman, along with his men, were supposed to search. So I do

18 think that it's part of the evidence, as far as where the different

19 battalions were searching, pursuant to orders that we have.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes --

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Now we do have Mr. McCloskey on his feet.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: I take it it's going to be procedural, Your Honour.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, the description is the

25 Konjevic Polje/Bratunac road. I think after a year we all know what road

Page 10132

1 that is. That's all it says and we're not suggesting there's any great

2 mystery to it. I just wanted to clear that up if it will save time. We

3 know what the Konjevic Polje/Bratunac road is but I think they threw in

4 another village to make it a little clear. That's not really in contest

5 here, that road.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: I just have a couple more questions, Your Honour.


8 MR. KARNAVAS: And there are other reasons which will become

9 eminently clear in my closing argument, a little bit like a mosaic.

10 Q. Now, if you could -- the area that you're being asked to search,

11 is that realistic, in light of the men that you have at your disposal?

12 A. It's unrealistic, both for the reason of the number of men at my

13 disposal but also because, in fact, I was to go in front of other units.

14 The remaining units would be moving in that direction. And if it were to

15 happen that I was going faster, I may have gone in front of them and

16 friendly fire may have occurred, which in such situations are quite

17 possible. The whole area is huge and it is difficult to negotiate it. So

18 in any case, it was a problem and we did not execute this order in the

19 manner prescribed.

20 Q. And just one last question while we're at this subject. If we

21 look at paragraph number 5, there is a completion time of 16 July 1995.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You're given two days to complete this task. Are you saying that

24 even with that amount of time, two full days, you and your men could not

25 accomplish this task?

Page 10133

1 A. Hardly. Plus there was another force majeure event as far as I

2 remember on the 15th of July. It was raining very hard, which was another

3 restrictive factor in starting this search of the terrain.

4 Q. All right. Now, you're being asked to establish your command post

5 at Cizmici. And I apologise for the pronunciation, but I'm a little

6 tired, not that I'm any better when I'm fresh. But when was it that you

7 had established that command post?

8 A. That command post was set up on the 12th of July.

9 Q. So from that can we conclude that the author of this -- or what

10 can we conclude, seeing that you establish it on the 12th. And now on the

11 14th you're being asked to establish it? Can you draw any conclusions

12 from that?

13 A. We can draw the conclusion that this command post was formalised

14 in this format.

15 Q. Okay. But what about the author? Here you're being asked on the

16 14th to establish something that's already been established, are you not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now -- and just for the record, could you kind of mark that

19 somehow so we know -- with an "A" for instance so we know that this is the

20 command post, the area.

21 A. [Witness complies]

22 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, before we leave this particular

23 document, I want you to look at it for a second. Does it state in this

24 document to whom it was distributed?

25 A. It says that it was delivered to the chief of staff.

Page 10134

1 Q. Okay. And before we go on, I believe we're through with the map.

2 And we want to thank the -- Mr. Usher for assisting us.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, unrelated to the specific testimony,

5 but just a matter of a fair amount of importance, it is really unclear

6 from the Prosecution what the relevancy of that was, as the Court

7 requested from counsel. Counsel has stated he's going to do his mosaic in

8 his closing argument. That's really -- under this system doesn't work,

9 because we need to know what we're cross-examining about. And in some

10 systems like this, the Prosecution has rebuttal to the closing argument,

11 which because we have the burden of proof, it's normal. And I will be

12 asking, if we can't tie this material up or at least have some showing of

13 relevancy, I'm going to need to be able to have a short rebuttal argument,

14 otherwise Mr. Karnavas in his mosaic is going to reveal all and the

15 Prosecution will have nothing to say about it. And before Mr. Karnavas

16 reveals all at the end, I would like to have a response. And I don't know

17 if we need to get into this at this late date, especially the relevance,

18 in front of the witness. But perhaps in the morning we might get an idea

19 of the mosaic to come.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, do you want to tell us something

21 now, or we may wait until tomorrow morning?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I don't believe in delayed

23 gratification. I'll give it -- I'll respond right now --

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, the problem is is the witness is

25 hearing the relevance and the witness is going to be talking about these

Page 10135

1 things.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I didn't jump up, Your Honour. I didn't jump

3 up and make this objection. We can excuse the witness for the evening --


5 MR. KARNAVAS: -- and I can make my little five-minute

6 presentation. I don't have a problem.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to give

8 your evidence. I'm afraid you have to stay here overnight and during your

9 stay in The Hague you are still under oath. So don't let anybody talk to

10 you and don't talk to anybody about your testimony. Do you understand?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. The usher will show you out of the room.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's have your closing argument for today.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, thank you, Mr. President. I always like to

16 argue as much as I can, and as early as possible.

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted) He did draw a map for the

19 Office of the Prosecution where he outlined exactly where his folks were

20 throughout those critical days. The searching of the terrain has been a

21 somewhat contentious or an issue that has been litigated somewhat in this

22 particular case. And that -- also in addition to that, we -- lots of

23 documents have come in either through Mr. Butler or other witnesses, and a

24 significant amount of importance has been placed on the content of the

25 document as if the documents are accurate, or purport to be accurate. So

Page 10136

1 what I'm trying to demonstrate here is that first of all, whoever wrote

2 this document - and tomorrow we'll see that it doesn't have the

3 authentication that it would necessarily have, because it doesn't show to

4 whom it was distributed and what have you, but rather says the chief of

5 staff and who we all know and will learn again tomorrow was not

6 there - but we see there is information being put on official documents or

7 what would appear to be official documents that are not correct. And

8 through this little exercise I'm trying to demonstrate several things.

9 One is the danger of circumstantial evidence. Because circumstantially

10 when we look at this, we can say, well, yes they could easily have

11 accomplished this task.

12 Number two, the Konjevic Polje thing, and I was rather light about

13 it, but it does draw one's attention. So this could give the wrong

14 impression that in reading this when we say "junction of Bratunac/Konjevic

15 Polje," one might think that this particular battalion was also

16 responsible for searching the terrain. And we know that at least in that

17 area there was some activity by MUP that had nothing to do with the

18 Bratunac Brigade. And so that's the other point that I'm trying to

19 demonstrate. And as I indicated, through this gentleman I'm trying to

20 show that, one, this order has some information that's not accurate, such

21 as to establish a command post that's already been established, to search

22 terrain which has already -- has always been clear because their line was

23 ahead of them. And I'm trying to show that perhaps when it comes time to

24 evaluate all of this evidence, we have to be very careful not to place too

25 much emphasis on what's written, because it may lead us down to the

Page 10137

1 wrong path. And this was a perfect opportunity, because the next

2 document -- you see, I have some more. They are all here, neatly piled

3 up. I'm going to go through one of the other maps, that famous map that

4 says "Colonel Zivanovic, zone of responsibility." We're going to have an

5 opportunity to look at that map again. Because of the title, we may think

6 that this is an official map that has some importance. Because it has

7 "zone of responsibility," it has been given a certain amount of

8 prominence by Mr. Butler --

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we understand the relevance of that.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: He asked me a question, Your Honour.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're not on to that topic yet.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, he asked me a question and he shouldn't ask

13 me questions if he doesn't want the full answer. I'm going to use this

14 again as a vehicle to get to that one to show that documents are

15 misleading, so when they pull out some logbook and say oh, so-and-so was

16 here, before we make that assumption that that was in fact -- a fact, we

17 should have perhaps other witnesses to corroborate it. That's all.

18 So it's -- there are no tricks, there are no tricks, just good

19 old-fashioned lawyering.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think it's time for the break.

21 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Do I get my three-minute's response, Your Honour?

23 I thought that was a lot more than why it was relevant. I don't feel a

24 need to, but ...

25 JUDGE LIU: Is it necessary? Maybe we could have it tomorrow

Page 10138

1 morning?

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't need to say anything, Your Honour, but I

3 appreciate that he's saying it's to show credibility of documents. And

4 that's what I was asking. All the rest of the speech wasn't really

5 necessary, but I think I don't need to rebut that. I think we understand

6 what's going on.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 And we'll continue the proceedings tomorrow morning at 9.00 in

9 Courtroom III. Yes. So the hearing for today is adjourned.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

11 at 7.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

12 the 2nd day of June, 2004,

13 at 9.00 a.m.