Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12192

1 Friday, 23 July 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic, Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

11 JUDGE LIU: Could you please make the solemn declaration in

12 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready?

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, last night we

20 proofed this witness, and we can begin our examination-in-chief today,

21 Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Please proceed.

23 Examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, would you introduce yourself to us.

25 A. My name is Branko Mihic. I come from the village of Drinjaca in

Page 12193

1 the municipality of Zvornik.

2 Q. Branko, could you please tell us your first and last name and

3 spell it for the record.

4 A. Yes. M-i-h-i-c diacritic. B-r-a-n-k-o.

5 Q. Would you tell us when and where you were born.

6 A. On the 29th of May, 1968, in Gornji Vuksic, the municipality of

7 Brcko, Bosnia and Herzegovina, then Yugoslavia.

8 Q. Would you tell us briefly what the course of your career was.

9 A. I was born in Gornji Vuksic. My father was a teacher there. I

10 lived there for a year and then we moved to Drinjaca where I still live

11 today. On completion of elementary school, I enrolled in the military

12 secondary school in Belgrade. I went to that school for two years and

13 then I was expelled. After that I continued my schooling in Zvornik. I

14 completed the secondary commercial school. After that I worked in Zagreb

15 for a time. Then I came home, and in 1991 I got married. Now I'm a

16 professional beekeeper.

17 Q. At one point you said that you had been expelled from the

18 military secondary school. Was the reason something you did or was there

19 any other reason why you left that school?

20 A. I liked this school. That's why I enrolled in it. However, the

21 circumstances were such that the -- the official reason given for my

22 expulsion was one thing, and I think the real reason was something else.

23 In that school we wore civilian clothes, although it was a military

24 secondary school, and we could do whatever we wanted with our civilian

25 clothes, and I sold mine at the market. This was quite usual. The

Page 12194

1 reason I was expelled was that in 1985 at Drinjaca there was an

2 organisation, a kind of Chetnik organisation. It later transpired that

3 this was actually not the troika Chetnik organisation. My father was

4 called as a witness, and there was pressure on him to give false

5 testimony, and he refused, and I think that's why I was expelled from

6 school. And there were a lot of sanctions against me in that system.

7 I wanted to go and enroll in the medical secondary school, but I

8 wasn't allowed to. I wasn't accepted. So I had to go to the commercial

9 school, which I didn't like at all.

10 Q. Thank you. If we can only slow down a little bit for the sake of

11 the interpreters.

12 A. Yes, I understand.

13 Q. Before 1991, were you duty-bound to serve in the army?

14 A. I did not do my military service. In the laws of the former

15 Yugoslavia, people who enrolled in military schools or academies and

16 stayed there for more than two years didn't have to do their military

17 service. I found this information in the newspaper, and I showed it to

18 the people in the military department, and then they took this into

19 account and didn't send me to do military service.

20 However, a comrade of mine who was also expelled from the school

21 like me did have to do his military service. So I was lucky.

22 Q. You said at one point that since 1991, you have been employed in

23 a private business and that you are a professional beekeeper. Can you

24 explain this, Mr. Mihic?

25 A. Beekeeping as a profession is not covered by taxes and is not

Page 12195

1 something that you register. So I do not have a registered business. I

2 am a farmer, I can say that, and I have 200 beehives and that's how I

3 earn my living. That's how I support my family. Only that way.

4 Q. Thank you. When the war broke out in Zvornik, did you become

5 active in the military?

6 A. Before the wartime conflicts broke out in Zvornik, I went to the

7 Mali Zvornik barracks, to Dragan Obrenovic's unit, only for the sake of

8 the salary. The salaries were good. There was nothing to do there. The

9 work wasn't hard. I was married. I had a child. I was unemployed. I

10 did keep bees at the time, but only as a hobby. So the only reason I

11 joined that unit was for the salary. When the Yugoslav army withdrew

12 from Bosnia and Herzegovina, that unit left Mali Zvornik and I returned

13 home.

14 Q. Is that when you got to know Dragan Obrenovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us. That year, how long did you stay in Mali

17 Zvornik?

18 A. Very briefly. Perhaps two months at the most. Very briefly.

19 Q. Thank you. On your return to Zvornik, what did you do next with

20 regard to joining the army of Republika Srpska?

21 A. When I arrived in Drinjaca, I joined the ordinary village patrol.

22 It wasn't really a unit. When the battalion was established, I joined

23 the signals department in the battalion.

24 Q. Were you trained for communications?

25 A. No.

Page 12196

1 Q. And during those wartime years did you manage to learn the work

2 of a signalsman?

3 A. I think I did.

4 Q. Would you be kind enough to tell us how you advanced in this

5 Signals Unit and what duties you performed in the Signals Unit?

6 A. Well, when the signals squad was set up, I worked at the

7 switchboard, the radio switchboard. My komandir was the late Borko. He

8 was a sergeant. Borko Vukajlovic, who, when he went to Bratunac to

9 attend a meeting about communications, was killed in Kravica in 1991.

10 After he was killed, I took over the duty of komandir. We had

11 communications with all the units, all the companies, mostly telephone

12 communications, radio communications, but not so much.

13 Q. Let me interrupt you for a moment. Who was the commander of the

14 battalion to which you belonged?

15 A. Dragon Gotovac.

16 Q. Thank you. After this how did you advance in this job?

17 A. When the wartime operations in Drinjaca were over, my battalion

18 went on toward Bratunac above Konjevic Polje. I was transferred to

19 Malisic from there. This is a place which is about 40 kilometres away

20 from Drinjaca, below Zvornik. And I was also the komandir, the commander

21 of the signals unit in the battalion.

22 Q. From when to when were you the komandir of the signals department

23 in Malisic?

24 A. I think it was in 1993. I don't think it went on into 1994, but

25 I can't be precise.

Page 12197

1 Q. Who was the battalion commander at that time if you can recall?

2 A. I think it was Nenad Simic. After he left it was Radenko

3 Petrovic.

4 Q. After performing this duty in 1993, where were you transferred

5 after that?

6 A. Well, I was far away from my home and my native village, and I

7 kept insisting that I be transferred back. Dragan Obrenovic then decided

8 to help me, and I was transferred to the Zvornik Brigade, to Standard.

9 And there are I became the komandir of a unit. It was the so-called

10 Mlada Vojska, Young Troops, and there were 14 of us. And all we did

11 actually was clean the corridors and the toilets. That's all we did. We

12 didn't do anything else.

13 Q. At one point you said that you got this better position thanks to

14 Dragan Obrenovic, where there was practically no work to do.

15 A. Yes. I explained to him it was difficult for me to travel 40 or

16 50 kilometres through snow and rain without any vehicle, and he decided

17 to grant my request. The new chief of communications --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name.

19 A. -- who arrived in those days.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

21 MR. WAESPI: Mr. Stojanovic, the interpreters didn't catch the

22 name of the new chief of communications.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. From the transcript I did not see the names.

24 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your intervention,

Page 12198

1 Mr. Waespi.

2 Q. Mr. Mihic, could you please tell us who, then, became the chief

3 of communications?

4 A. Slobodan Gaborovic.

5 Q. Thank you. What was Dragan Obrenovic's duty at the time?

6 A. He was then the chief of staff of the brigade.

7 Q. Who was the brigade commander?

8 A. The commander was Vinko Pandurevic.

9 Q. Did Dragan Obrenovic as the chief of staff have the right to

10 transfer you from one post to another?

11 A. I think he did, but it wasn't a personal order from him.

12 Q. What are you trying to say by this, "it wasn't a personal order

13 from him"? It was his authority, but someone else issued the order?

14 A. Yes, precisely so.

15 Q. Could you please clarify this. I don't want to put a leading

16 question. What did you mean by that?

17 A. I asked him about this but it wasn't him who wrote out the order.

18 Probably there were no written traces at all. He said, "Mihic, from

19 tomorrow you're going to Standard, and you'll be working there." That's

20 how it happened.

21 Q. Did Obrenovic have that kind of authority at the time? Could he

22 just say to the chief of communications, "Well, transfer this man"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And according to the system, who was supposed to issue the order

25 about your transfer from one duty to another?

Page 12199

1 A. I don't know exactly. I think it was my chief of communications,

2 because if I had come from Drinjaca it was logical for them to send me

3 back, but he was the one who assigned people to various posts.

4 Q. And did he do that pursuant to an order from Dragan Obrenovic?

5 A. Yes, I think he did.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, after that you moved to where?

7 A. When I got there, I stayed there for about two months or maybe a

8 month. But I didn't do anything there, absolutely nothing. And then I

9 asked -- I said, "Well, I'm not just a broom you can send to sweep

10 wherever you want." And then I was transferred to the radio relay

11 centre.

12 Q. And since when did you work at the radio relay centre as a

13 signalsman? From what date?

14 A. Well, I can't remember the date, but it was in 1994, 1995.

15 That's when I was there.

16 Q. Were you the komandir of that signals department?

17 A. Yes, I was. Radio communication, in actual fact.

18 Q. Now, as the commander of the squad, of this communications squad,

19 did you do that job in July 1995 as well?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. And how long did you stay at that post doing that work?

22 A. I might have stayed -- well, I can't say exactly, but it might

23 have been August of that year, 1995.

24 Q. Thank you. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to ask you the

25 following question: The signals squad, how many people were there to

Page 12200

1 that unit?

2 A. Well, the number of people changed, but there were always between

3 four and eight.

4 Q. Where were you in July 1995, physically?

5 A. The command post of the brigade was in the Standard factory.

6 That was common knowledge. So we were one kilometre up the hill from

7 that command post, one kilometre away in a metal container.

8 Q. And what communication devices and signals devices did you have

9 in that metal container up on the hill?

10 A. They were the devices that belonged to my squad, the RUP 12, and

11 a radio station. I think it was all the RRU 100, but we referred to it

12 as the 100. But it belonged to the other squad that was next to ours,

13 and they had the RRU 800 device. And of course a telephone line with the

14 brigade command, an inductor telephone. A wire connection.

15 Q. And how did you organise the work at this radio relay centre?

16 A. Well, it changed, catering to the needs whether there was two,

17 two or three, three, or if we needed 100 per cent men on the job we'd all

18 be there. If there was any combat operations, all of us were there

19 100 per cent. If not, we would take shifts and relieve each other.

20 Q. Establishment-wise, who did you belong to?

21 A. We belonged to the signals company.

22 Q. And who was the commander of the signals company in July?

23 A. The commander was Radic Dragisa or Dragisa Radic.

24 Q. At one point you said that you had a telephone line or a wire

25 communication, as you put it, I think, with the brigade command. Is that

Page 12201

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell us, please, and explain what kind of telephone

4 line that was for us laymen who are not professional soldiers and

5 signalsmen. What does an inductor telephone that you mentioned actually

6 mean? What was it?

7 A. The brigade command was put up at the Standard on the first

8 floor, I think. Upstairs on the second floor there was the telephone

9 switchboard, the exchange, and the exchange operator were both men and

10 women. And then from that switchboard there was a wire stretched to me

11 and the wire was about 1.000 metres, and it was attached to the

12 telephone. So from my radio relay centre, using an inductor I could call

13 up the switchboard and exchange and they could then connect me to

14 anywhere, any battalion, any town, any country. They could put me

15 through anywhere I wanted to speak to.

16 Q. Does that mean you didn't have a direct telephone line with the

17 duty officer?

18 A. No, we didn't.

19 Q. Did you have a wire connection, telephone inductor connection,

20 with the battalions?

21 A. Only through the switchboard. Exclusively through the

22 switchboard. The radio centre, the switchboard, and then out to anyplace

23 I wanted.

24 Q. And finally, did you have any telephone wire inductor connection

25 with the superior commands, the Drina Corps and the Main Staff directly?

Page 12202

1 Did you have a direct line to them?

2 A. Through the switchboard, yes.

3 Q. Does that mean that you had this inductor telephone line directly

4 only to the switchboard which was located at the command of the Zvornik

5 Brigade? Is that right?

6 A. Yes. So when I used the inductor telephone, it would be the

7 switchboard that answers me. Nobody else could answer me, just the

8 switchboard. It went through straight to the exchange, to the

9 switchboard.

10 Q. Thank you. Let's move on to radio communications now. You said

11 that you had the RUP 12 device; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. Now, for us laymen who don't know what this is about, what kind

14 of device it is, could you explain what the RUP 12 is, what its range is.

15 A. It was a piece of equipment -- how could I explain this to you?

16 Ten or 12 kilogrammes with two types of antennae, a long one and a short

17 one with different ranges. And it depended an optic sight [as

18 interpreted]. The larger the optic site, the further the frequency,

19 which does not mean that you couldn't get a connection within a space of

20 three kilometres. There were depression and elevations and so on.

21 Q. Now, you yourself, on the -- with this radio device, did you have

22 a connection to the battalion?

23 A. The location I was at the with the radio devices wasn't selected

24 at random. It was the sole case where I could have a connection with all

25 the battalions. If I were to move ten metres to the left or ten metres

Page 12203

1 to the right I wouldn't have this connection. So this was this spot,

2 this particular location that allowed me to have radio communication with

3 all the battalions, and I could hear and communicate with them at all

4 times.

5 Q. If we had a commander, for example, or an operative unit working

6 in the field at any given time carrying another RUP 12 device with them,

7 if they had a RUP 12, then with these mobile radio devices could you

8 achieve a communication as well?

9 A. Yes, but not in all cases. Not in all circumstances. If

10 somebody was standing in a depression with a RUP, then I couldn't reach

11 him, which doesn't mean that he couldn't reach me by another battalion,

12 going via another battalion and reaching me in that way, a roundabout

13 way.

14 Q. Did you have radio communication with the superior units, that is

15 to say with the command of the Drina Corps, for example?

16 A. Radio communications with the command of the Drina Corps never

17 functioned. It was never operational, never. The RRU 100 device was

18 used. You could hear very badly through it, and it never worked, hardly

19 ever worked. So not really.

20 Q. Now I'm going to ask you about those radio devices and means of

21 communications in the Zvornik Brigade. You said, I believe, that at the

22 command of the brigade, on the upper storey was where the switchboard was

23 located; is that the?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So what was this? What kind of communication did they have, the

Page 12204

1 people operating the switchboard?

2 A. The switchboard was linked to all the battalions by a wire

3 connection. So at all times you could use the inductor telephone from

4 the battalions and reach the switchboard, anybody at all. There was a

5 relay device too. I don't know much about that and I don't know its name

6 either, whether it was called the VZ something and a number after it.

7 But that was a relay device, and that was used, but I really don't know

8 how because I'm not well-versed in that particular device.

9 Q. Was the process and procedure the same when you went externally

10 or somebody rang up the Zvornik Brigade from outside? Would it have to

11 go through that switchboard and then be connected to the person that they

12 wanted to speak to?

13 A. I think there were two numbers. One number was the one we

14 referred to as the civilian number at the switchboard which you would

15 phone up, and then you would be connected anywhere, the command of the

16 brigade, the command of the battalion. And then there was a direct

17 telephone line at the command itself. I can't remember the telephone

18 number. I did know it by heart, but I just can't remember it now.

19 Q. So my question to you is this: Could you help us out, please.

20 Somebody is calling from the Drina Corps, for example, and he wants to

21 speak to the duty operations man in the brigade. How can he reach the

22 duty operations officer?

23 A. If he's calling from the Drina Corps, he could call up the

24 switchboard and say, "I want to speak to the duty officer," and then he

25 switches two switches and connects him to the duty operations officer.

Page 12205

1 Or he can phone him on that fixed telephone number directly.

2 Q. This fixed telephone number, could it be intercepted?

3 A. I think so. I think this could be tapped into, yes.

4 Q. And what about the other number, the one going through the

5 switchboard? Could that be tapped into?

6 A. Well, it's the same. It would be the same case.

7 Q. Now, your radio communications through the RUP 12, could that be

8 intercepted?

9 A. Yes, absolutely. You could intercept anything.

10 Q. Now, you as the komandir of that radio centre, radio signals or

11 communications centre, did you know whether the conversations you had

12 through RUP 12 could be intercepted?

13 A. Yes. I knew that because I intercepted conversations from the

14 opposite side. I did the same thing.

15 Q. And what was the procedure when regular and interim combat

16 reports were sent out through the superior units? Which devices would be

17 used? How could you do that? How would the combat reports, regular or

18 interim, be sent out and distributed?

19 A. In the communications centre there were four squads and you had

20 the encoding department, you had the telephonists, you had the radio

21 operators and the radio relay operators. We ourselves did not send out

22 reports of that kind. Those were sent out by the encoders, encrypters.

23 Q. Could you tell us where the encrypters or encoders were located,

24 that is to state people who would send out regular combat reports, for

25 example?

Page 12206

1 A. They were located, I think, on the same floor where the

2 switchboard was in another separate office. In the brigade command in

3 the Standard buildings, on the Standard premises.

4 Q. Why were they in a separate room? Why weren't they by the

5 switchboard?

6 A. It was a special department for encryption, encoding. Nobody was

7 allowed to enter except them and the commander. It was highly secretive,

8 highly confidential. Let me just say that from the colleagues that

9 worked there -- it had nothing to do with my department, but I asked them

10 and tried what -- to see what they were doing, but I wasn't allowed to go

11 in and have a look. They didn't give me permission.

12 Q. Just so we understand each other, who was the sole person able to

13 enter the encryption department?

14 A. As far as I gathered from them, the sole person was the

15 commander. Only the commander could enter.

16 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to -- you to explain using a practical

17 example of how this functioned, and I'd like to ask the usher's help for

18 an exhibit that we've already used here. It was Prosecution Exhibit

19 P519, and it was a regular combat report of the Zvornik Brigade dated the

20 14th of July, 1995.

21 Mr. Mihic, you have before you a document. It is titled Regular

22 Combat Report from the Zvornik Brigade on the 14th of July, 1995, sent

23 out to the command of the Drina Corps. It was sent by the commander

24 Major Dragan Obrenovic, and it was sent on the 14th of July, 1995, at

25 1840 hours. Can you see that? You have it in front of you. At the

Page 12207

1 stamp at the bottom, if you take a look. And you have the signature, V.

2 Stojkic.

3 A. Yes, I see that, yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us, please, who V. Stojkic was?

5 A. Vinko Stojkic. He was an operator in that encryption department.

6 I think he was also the komandir of that squad or department.

7 Q. Was he one of the people who was permitted to be in the

8 encryption office?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, once a report of this kind is written out, how is it sent on

11 to the encryption department?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Waespi.

13 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I believe the witness said before he wasn't

14 involved in this process of sending these reports, and also the

15 information he gave us about the entry into this encryption room was sort

16 of secondhand. So I would like to object to anything -- going into

17 details about the process he isn't aware of.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, would you please ask this once

19 again whether he was involved in the sending of the reports to lay some

20 foundation for this question. Yes.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

22 Q. Mr. Mihic, at one point you said that you were interested, from

23 your signals, fellow signalsmen, to learn of the way in which the

24 encryption, encrypters worked?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 12208

1 Q. Now, did they tell you the kinds of situations that they would be

2 able to send out a document of this kind? Does it have to be authorised

3 and signed by the commander or what?

4 A. No. They didn't tell me that, but based on my experience, I

5 think it would have to have been signed and authorised by the commander.

6 So this isn't my sphere. But as far as I know, the report and document

7 would have to be signed.

8 Q. Thank you. And following on from that context, I want to ask you

9 the following: Were you ever in a position that through your radio

10 centre this kind of confidential, strictly confidential reports were ever

11 sent out?

12 A. No. We never sent reports of this kind out.

13 Q. Now, my question to you -- my next question is why.

14 A. It wasn't a reliable communication and line. And there was no

15 need. They had a wire connection if they were in the field. If you were

16 two kilometres away you could use the telephone and ring up. So there

17 was no reason and no need to use that, and everything was intercepted and

18 tapped into. So that wasn't standard practice at all.

19 Q. An experienced officer, an experienced commander, would he do

20 something like this knowing that the radio communication is intercepted?

21 Would they sent such document through you?

22 A. I don't think so.

23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Waespi.

24 MR. WAESPI: This is pure speculation to ask him what an

25 experienced commander would do or not.

Page 12209

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It is a speculative question.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll go back to more concrete

3 things.

4 Q. During your tour of duty, was any regular or interim report sent

5 via your radio centre?

6 A. No.

7 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the second part of the

8 questions that are relative to communication. You were in the radio

9 communication centre, and you wanted to say something or communicate

10 something to the duty operations officer.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you do it using the RUP?

13 A. No, I couldn't.

14 Q. Does that mean that the duty operations officer did not have

15 another RUP 12 on him?

16 A. Yes, that's what it means. He didn't have one.

17 Q. However, you have to communicate to him. You have to pass on

18 certain information that you had received from the battalion. How did

19 you do that? How did you communicate to the duty operations officer?

20 A. If I received information, I will speak to the duty operations

21 man at the switchboard who will pass it on. Or I would call the

22 switchboard and I would ask to speak to the duty operations officer.

23 That was the alternative.

24 Q. This is exactly what I wanted to ask you. One of the

25 battalions - and we have a logbook of the duty operations officers

Page 12210

1 recording the requirements for equipment, ammunition and so on and so

2 forth - one of the battalion addressed you and asked you to inform the

3 logistics that they needed ammunition, batteries, Browning ammunition and

4 similar things. How would you pass on this information to the duty

5 operations officer?

6 A. If this was asked from me, I would call the switchboard and I

7 will pass the information on, and they in their turn will pass the

8 information on to the duty operations officers. I could try and contact

9 the duty operations officer myself, but he was not always in his office.

10 So I would rather call the switchboard and ask them to pass on the

11 information on to him.

12 Q. Would it be more practical because somebody was always at the

13 switchboard at all times?

14 A. Yes, that's correct. There was always somebody at the

15 switchboard.

16 Q. When you passed on the information to the person working at the

17 switchboard, how would that person communicate that to the duty

18 operations officer?

19 A. It would be done on foot. It would be written on a piece of

20 paper and that person would literally take it downstairs to the duty

21 operations officer.

22 Q. Does that mean that you yourself did not have to communicate that

23 information directly to the duty informations -- duty operations officer?

24 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what it means.

25 Q. While you were working in -- at the radio communications centre,

Page 12211

1 what was the common practice? Was it the common practice for you to

2 communicate to the duty operations officer directly or did you leave the

3 information with the person at the switchboard who would then bring it to

4 the duty operations officer?

5 A. It was easier for me to leave the information with the

6 switchboard operator who would then bring it to the duty operations

7 officer. It was much easier, more practical for me.

8 Q. The same question, but let's go to the superior command. We're

9 now talking -- we were now talking about the battalion, but let's go to

10 the superior command.

11 In the duty operations officer logbook it says "Beara to report

12 to 155." Somebody's asking from the duty operations officer for this

13 information to be passed on to Beara. What would the procedure be in

14 this case? Did you have to talk to the duty operations officer directly?

15 A. No, we didn't. We could simply call the switchboard and ask them

16 to pass the information on, and they would do it at the first

17 opportunity. So we didn't have to speak to the duty operations officer

18 himself. It could be done through the switchboard operator.

19 Q. My question is as follows: Does it mean that bearing in mind the

20 system of communications, the duty operations officer did not necessarily

21 have to receive directly any such information, any such request?

22 A. That's correct. It wasn't the duty operations officer who

23 received that. It would be the switchboard operator who would receive

24 that, put it on a piece of paper and take it physically to the duty

25 operations officer who was supposed to receive it.

Page 12212

1 Q. And wouldn't that be the job of the communications or signalsmen,

2 the branch that you belonged to?

3 A. No. That wouldn't be my job. There would be other people,

4 people who are switchboard operators who would do that.

5 Q. Within this system of communication via the switchboard, could

6 the duty operations officer be in the position to receive information

7 more often through the switchboard or directly?

8 A. More often he would receive it from the switchboard because

9 everything went via the switchboard.

10 Q. Thank you. And now let me ask you about your position, the

11 position that you had up there as the radio communications squad. Why

12 did you exist if there were radio and telephone lines?

13 A. We were on a stand-by if telephone lines did not work. So we

14 worked very rarely. Within the period of 12 hours, we would maybe check

15 our connection once and that was -- that was it. Over the next five

16 days, maybe we did not even hear each other once.

17 Q. What was your function? Was your function to establish

18 communication was those units or those officers who at that given moment

19 did not have a telephone line?

20 A. Yes. If the telephone communication was broken, then it would be

21 us that established communication links. And if the units were on a

22 move, in combat, then we would be mediators. We would mediate in their

23 communication because they could communicate directly, and they did it on

24 a daily basis. When that was not possible, we would mediate in their

25 communication.

Page 12213

1 Q. On the 13th and 14th there was fighting in the area of the

2 Zvornik Brigade. Certain units were transferred to Snagovo. We have

3 heard a lot of testimonies about that. Did you have communication with

4 those units in Snagovo? Did you establish a radio connection with them?

5 A. I believe so.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

7 MR. WAESPI: I'm just objecting to using specific examples which

8 are not correct. For instance, there was no fighting on the 13th. So

9 that's a generalisation. I don't know whether it's needed, it's

10 important for the purposes of this question, but if he does it, it needs

11 to be correct.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I did

14 not understand this remark. The first ambush and the first conflict with

15 the column and the military police of the Zvornik Brigade happened on the

16 13th, and on the 14th in the evening there was the most fierce fighting

17 with the ambush of Snagovo. We have heard testimonies to that effect.

18 If that is not correct, as my learned friend says, then I will also

19 accept that there was no fighting on the 13th.

20 JUDGE LIU: No. Here the suggestion is not that there was

21 fighting on the 13th or the 14th. Here we just want to establish whether

22 this person has some connection with the unit there. These are the most

23 important things, no matter whether there is fighting or not. So let's

24 concentrate on that direction.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This was the goal of my

Page 12214

1 question. However, an objection was raised to the effect that there was

2 into fighting on the 13th.

3 Q. My question is as follows: On the 13th, the 14th, the 15th, the

4 16th of July, during those developments and events did you have -- your

5 squad that is, the radio communications squad -- did you have -- did you

6 establish a link with those units which were on the move?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did this communication function or would it be interrupted from

9 time to time because those units were on the move?

10 A. Yes, that's correct. It worked at times, and at times it didn't

11 work.

12 Q. And now I wanted to ask you something very specific. Can you

13 remember on the 14th, in the night between the 14th and 15th and on the

14 15th, were you in the communications centre and up to when?

15 A. I believe I wasn't. It was a long time ago. On the 15th,

16 however, I was absent because my wife was due to give birth. The road to

17 Drinjaca was closed because of these combat activities, so I had to go

18 via Serbia. I had to cross the Drina. I had to go and fetch my wife,

19 and I had to bring my wife and two young children to Zvornik, to my

20 sister's place. And then I returned to the communications centre, but I

21 don't know when that was. It was a long time ago. But I was there.

22 There were combat operations. I was on the line. I may have been absent

23 for three or four hours, but I had to. The road was blocked. There were

24 two young children at home. My wife was pregnant and about to give

25 birth, so my family needed me, and that's why I left the position.

Page 12215

1 Q. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you left on the

2 15th of July for these objective reasons?

3 A. I believe that it was sometime in the morning. The 15th of July

4 was the date when she was due, and I just left on the 15th of July to see

5 what was going on.

6 Q. Because of these combat activities, you can conclude that you

7 were there in your position on the 14th and 15th?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How were you organised at the time, in view of the intensive

10 fighting in the area of the Zvornik Brigade?

11 A. I believe that we were all there, on the line. A hundred per

12 cent of the troops were there. Mind you, only one person could actually

13 work. The rest of us were probably sitting watching TV while that one

14 person was working.

15 Q. Thank you. In view of the fact that you were aware that what you

16 were doing could be intercepted and was indeed intercepted by the enemy,

17 can you tell us how would it happen within the system if you were to pass

18 on a piece of intelligence to a battalion or to the units on the move?

19 Did you have certain codes, code names? Did you have the means to carry

20 out secret conversations?

21 A. Yes. When we received our communications plans, we also received

22 codes that every battalion had. For example, one letter would be

23 replaced by three or four figures or several letters. So when a piece of

24 information was to be communicated, we would receive a lot of numbers.

25 For example, 562 was letter B. For example, if I were to sent

Page 12216

1 confidential information, I would just send the other person a cluster of

2 numbers. The person who received it, he would just follow those numbers

3 and that's how he could decipher the text.

4 It was very rarely that this was used, because we could normally

5 avail ourselves of the wire lines, of the telephone lines.

6 Q. Did you as the commander of that communications squad have an

7 opportunity or were you given a task to give one of your soldiers to

8 Dragan Obrenovic?

9 A. Yes. My unit was the one that gave soldiers to Dragan Obrenovic.

10 Q. Can you explain how this functioned? How did your soldiers serve

11 under him?

12 A. For example, a RUP 12 would be taken from the depot. The soldier

13 would put it on his back, literally. And if Dragan Obrenovic was sent to

14 the field, then that soldier would literally follow him. And that

15 soldier had to be very fit, because not everybody could follow Obrenovic

16 when he was moving around.

17 Q. Can you remember on the 14th of July who was escorting him?

18 A. Yes. It was Milos Pantic.

19 Q. On the 14th and the 15th of July, was he with him all the time?

20 A. I believe so.

21 Q. Thank you. In addition to RUP 12, did Dragan Obrenovic also use

22 or could he use the UK device [as interpreted]?

23 A. He usually carried a Motorola.

24 Q. When you say Motorola, do you mean that a Motorola is a UKT

25 device?

Page 12217

1 A. Yes, I believe so.

2 Q. Could he use his Motorola in order to establish a direct link

3 with the command of the Zvornik Brigade?

4 A. No.

5 Q. To be more specific, let me ask you: Could he use his Motorola

6 to dispatch information to the duty operations officer?

7 A. No, he could not. He couldn't do it directly. He could via

8 somebody else.

9 Q. Does this mean that the duty operations officer did not have a

10 Motorola available?

11 A. No, he didn't.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask the usher to

14 assist us to show the witness exhibit for identification, Your Honour.

15 It's P520, and this is a document we have already had an occasion to see.

16 It's an interim combat report of the 14th of July, 1995, which was used

17 by Mr. Butler and also by us when examining Witness Ljubo Bojanovic.

18 Q. Mr. Mihic, would you please look at the text of this interim

19 combat report and tell us to whom it's addressed. What does it say?

20 A. "To the command of the Drina Corps."

21 Q. Thank you. And who signed this document? Who is sending it?

22 A. Major Dragan Obrenovic, chief of staff.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

24 MR. WAESPI: The questions answers are following so quickly, so I

25 may not have a chance to object. But again, if he asked this witness to

Page 12218

1 comment on some substantive text, I have a problem. If he asks him again

2 whether somebody, you know, signed this document who was part of his

3 squad, that's no problem. But to have him again speculate about what may

4 be here, then I have a problem.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think the issue is here that

6 whether you could establish a certain kind of relevancy between this

7 document and this witness. That is to say whether this witness is in the

8 position to make some comments of that document. And before that, we

9 shall not go into the contents of this document.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. There is no

11 need for hasty objections. I do not intend to ask the witness to comment

12 on this interim combat report. My questions will be in a completely

13 different direction, and we will link this all up through the document.

14 Q. So let's just familiarise ourselves with the document and then

15 I'll put questions to you. The document says: "Tonight at around 2020

16 hours, a large group of Muslims passed through the broader Maricici area,

17 proceeding towards the Zvornik-Caparde road." And I won't read any more

18 although it's brief.

19 I'll just read the last bit. The second paragraph says: "Try to

20 find some means of bringing in more intervention forces early in the

21 morning." And then it's signed by Dragan Obrenovic.

22 Would you, sir -- Mr. Mihic, look at the seal --

23 MR. WAESPI: Objection.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Waespi, I don't think the question has been

25 asked yet.

Page 12219

1 MR. WAESPI: Yes, but it's not signed by Mr. Obrenovic. That's

2 what he keeps referring. So that's a misstatement of facts.


4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we say that in the

5 document, at the place where it is stated who is sending the document,

6 it's true there is no signature, but that was not the purpose of my

7 question. We've already established all this through the testimony of

8 Ljubo Bojanovic.

9 Q. Mr. Mihic, what I wanted to ask was the following: Would you

10 please look at the seal with me, at the stamp, saying when the document

11 was sent.

12 A. Yes, I see it.

13 Q. What's the date?

14 A. The 15th of July, 1995.

15 Q. What's the time?

16 A. I think it's 0110 hours.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

18 MR. WAESPI: Again I really object to this witness who wasn't

19 involved in sending these documents, who was at a hill outside Zvornik to

20 comment on a document, on dates. The document speaks for itself. And we

21 have here Mr. Bojanovic. These people were qualified to comment on it,

22 not this witness, I'm afraid.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage I actually have not heard the

24 substantive questions put by Mr. Stojanovic. I believe that Mr.

25 Stojanovic is now just laying some background. But let's come to see the

Page 12220

1 question you're going to ask this witness. And you told us before that

2 it will be a quite different direction. We'll see how different it is.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Mihic, until last night when I showed this document to you,

5 had you ever seen it?

6 A. No. I see Vinko Stojkic signed it, so it couldn't have been sent

7 through me. It must have been sent through the encryption.

8 Q. Thank you. I'll show you a part of the statement made by Dragan

9 Obrenovic, the statement of facts before this Tribunal.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it might be more

11 practical to put this on the ELMO - it's a public document - so that we

12 can see the English version.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In his statement, Dragan Obrenovic mentions this document and

16 says: "That same evening, 14th between 2300 hours and 0000 hours, I

17 wrote a request to the Drina Corps command for results on a piece of

18 paper and I gave it to my signalsman. He in turn sent the message to the

19 radioman. It was transmitted to the communication centre and then

20 relayed to the duty officer, Dragan Jokic. This was after the battles

21 and the capture of police captain Zoran Jankovic."

22 My question, Mr. Mihic, is as follows: On the 14th of July while

23 you were in the radio centre, at any point in time did you receive this

24 kind of open telegram from Snagovo?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

Page 12221

1 MR. WAESPI: There needs to be a foundation whether this person

2 was there on the 14th. I think he testified earlier he was away for

3 three hours. So before he goes in to basically assuming, he should

4 establish the foundation.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I believe the witness testified before that he

6 was not stay there for the whole day. He was absent for some time. So

7 the first question is that, you know, from what time, you know, this

8 witness was absent during that day.

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness

10 did state, and you can see on the previous page, that he left on the 15th

11 of July, before noon. And in answer to my next question, he said that in

12 the night between the 14th and 15th, he was there at the radio centre and

13 that they were all present there because of the intensive fighting.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. WAESPI: That was a general answer he testified in these

16 present, but he specifically said he was off and on. So I don't think

17 it's correct to assume now that on that night he was there.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, since there's some, you know, different

19 interpretations, would you please ask some questions to this witness.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. No problem.

21 Q. Mr. Mihic, a few minutes ago we discussed this. Would you tell

22 us when you went to pick up your wife in Drinjaca, who was about to give

23 birth.

24 A. Well, you have to understand me. This was a long time ago. I

25 think I left on the 15th because she was due to give birth on that day.

Page 12222

1 Q. My next question is: At what time on the 15th?

2 A. If it was the 15th, it was in the morning. It was before noon.

3 Q. And where did you go?

4 A. I crossed the bridge over the Drina. I went into Serbia by boat.

5 I crossed the Drina by boat. And then I took my wife and children to

6 Serbia, to Mali Zvornik, to be with my sister.

7 Q. On the 15th in the morning, how long were you away from the radio

8 centre?

9 A. Three or four hours, because I was in a hurry. I had to be on

10 duty.

11 Q. And did you then return to the radio centre?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And the day before, the 14th, and the night between the 14th and

14 the 15th, did you spend that time together with the others in the squad?

15 A. Yes. I was at the radio centre.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue now, Your Honour?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. My question was: Between 2300 hours and 0000 hours on the 14th,

20 did you receive through the open RUP communication this interim combat

21 report?

22 A. I personally didn't, but please don't misunderstand me. There

23 were four of us there. Maybe somebody else did, but I did not. Although

24 I'm not familiar with this text; we read whatever arrived, but I don't

25 remember seeing this.

Page 12223

1 Q. At one point you said that you never received such documents

2 through the RUP open line.

3 A. No. Especially not from the commander of the chief of staff.

4 This was never sent through us. We were there to communicate with the

5 battalions. It was the battalions who would send their reports through

6 us, and these were usually very trivial. They would just say "Situation

7 as usual." The battalions would sometimes send their reports to me if

8 the lines were down, and this would usually read just "Situation normal."

9 Q. Did you ever receive from the commander or the chief of staff the

10 task of sending such an important document through the open

11 communication?

12 A. No. The commander never called on us.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I

14 propose that we take a break now. I will put a few more questions about

15 the witness's knowledge of Dragan Jokic and then that would conclude my

16 examination-in-chief. I will need not more than ten or 15 minutes.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's time for the break, and we will resume at

18 quarter to eleven.

19 --- Recess taken at 11.14 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.47 a.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Mihic, I now have a few questions to ask you about Dragan

24 Jokic.

25 A. Yes, go ahead.

Page 12224

1 Q. Since when have you known Dragan Jokic?

2 A. I've known Dragan Jokic since he was the chief of staff of the

3 brigade, that is to say at the beginning of the war.

4 Q. Did you meet him perhaps during the war?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you have occasion to see him talk to other soldiers,

7 conversing to other officers, superior officers, subordinate officers,

8 that kind of thing?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you tell us, please, what your impressions are of Dragan

11 Jokic and what the troops and soldiers thought of him? What were their


13 A. Let me tell you. I'll be frank. I'll tell you what I really

14 think. I think most of the people here whom I don't know here have not

15 read a novel called "Nikoletina Bursac" who is also the main character.

16 At first chance he is a rather rough-looking type, rough-looking

17 character but with a very kind heart and soul. He loved everything,

18 loved nature and loved everything that was civilised, just as the

19 character in the book "Nikoletina Bursac."

20 As you know, my profession is a beekeeper, and Dragan Jokic

21 bought some bees from me, and he gave me his official pistol for what

22 were practically two empty beehives. It was just the same as if he'd

23 given it to me in exchange for two boxes of cigarettes, for example.

24 Dragan Jokic knew I was a hunter, and he had a rifle. I don't know what

25 kind it was, but he wanted to give it to me as a gift. That was before

Page 12225

1 any of these events took place.

2 So quite simply I can say that he was a good man. He wasn't a

3 careerist, a career oriented. But the officers persecuted him,

4 mistreated him, didn't treat him properly, and I found that difficult to

5 take. But what can you do? That's what the situation was like.

6 Q. Were you ever in a situation in which you attended these

7 conversations and communications between Dragan Jokic and his superior

8 officers when they behaved towards him that way, with a lack of respect,

9 or undermined him and the man he was?

10 A. Yes, I was, and I found it shameful to be in their company when

11 they took it out on them, the superior officers took it out on him in

12 front of other soldiers, in front of the troops.

13 Q. Could you be more specific and tell us how they berated him and

14 undermined him, the superior officers?

15 A. Well, I was present on one occasion when the commanding officer

16 asked him to dig a communicating trench. He said I don't want anybody

17 else, any other soldier to dig the trench, I want you to do it. So he

18 took up a shovel and started digging this communicating trench. He

19 didn't have to do for long, but it was just to prove a point and the way

20 they treated him.

21 Q. Did you ever have occasion while you were working as a signalsman

22 near the command of the Zvornik Brigade to hear from the soldiers or the

23 citizens members of the Zvornik Brigade anything about Dragan having

24 taken part in any crimes?

25 A. No. I'd never heard anything like that about Dragan's

Page 12226

1 participation in any crime.

2 Q. Well, did you hear about the crimes generally that were committed

3 in the Zvornik municipality?

4 A. I was a signalsman up at the signals department. And believe me

5 when I say I didn't hear anything about those crimes, not a single

6 letter. I heard about it when everything became public. But otherwise,

7 there was never any mention of anything of that kind and I knew

8 absolutely nothing about anything like that at the time.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know about his family situation, Dragan

10 Jokic's family situation, his family circumstances?

11 A. Yes. I knew his financial situation and his family situation,

12 although we weren't close. We weren't friends. We didn't actually --

13 but we did socialise a bit. I think he's divorced. He had to look after

14 a son, I think. I think it was his second or third marriage. I know he

15 has a very fine young son, a very cultivated, nice young man. I know he

16 lived in somebody else's apart. He was a tenant. That's all I can say.

17 That's all I know about him.

18 But I do know that the other officers gained a great deal more

19 than he did. He wasn't interested in anything material, whereas the

20 other officers accrued more.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mihic.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

23 Your Honours, for this witness.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Karnavas?

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours; good

Page 12227

1 morning, sir. I have no questions for the gentleman.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Waespi.

3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, good morning, Mr. President.


5 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I have just a few questions, and I have been

6 using one exhibit, Exhibit P121. I'm sorry I didn't announce it

7 previously. That's the own exhibit I will be using, with your leave.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes please.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:

10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mihic. I have just a few issues I'd like to

11 clarify with you.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. Let me first go back to your whereabouts. This morning

14 Mr. Stojanovic had asked you, and I quote him:

15 "And now I wanted to ask you something very specific. Can you

16 remember on the 14th, in the night between the 14th and the 15th and on

17 the 15th, were you in the communications centre and up to when? "

18 And your answer was: "I believe I wasn't. It was a long time

19 ago." And then you go on to talk about the 15th.

20 Now, you don't really know where you were in those days because

21 it's such a long time ago. Isn't that correct?

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think this question has been

23 asked and answered, but we would like to hear the witness once again.

24 Yes. I understand that. Let the witness answer that question. Yes. Is

25 there anything that you still want to raise? If you have, please.

Page 12228

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one sentence. I think,

2 Your Honour, that not at one point did the witness say he was not there,

3 but let the witness answer the question again. But then it would be

4 proper to have the whole answer given by the witness quoted. It would be

5 proper vis-a-vis the witness.

6 MR. WAESPI: The problem, Mr. President, is the question

7 Mr. Stojanovic had asked, because it included 14th, 15th night, and I

8 just would like to clarify what the witness said.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. You may proceed.

10 Witness, you may answer that question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Fine. Whether I was

12 there on the 14th, is that it? Well, I can't say 100 per cent. I think

13 I was there. Now, if somebody were to ask you where were you two and a

14 half years ago, it would be difficult for you to answer. So all I can

15 say is I think I was there, but as the war was going on, I was at the

16 front line 100 per cent. If I had gone to fetch my wife on the 15th, I

17 actually deserted to go and fetch my wife and take her to be -- to give

18 birth. So on the 14th I can say that 90 per cent, I'm sure 90 per cent

19 that I was there.


21 Q. Now, you just told us, in your words, that you deserted to get

22 your wife. Did you ask authority then from somebody or not?

23 A. No, I did not. I didn't ask anybody's permission, because it was

24 a -- I had two sons, born in 1993 and 1994. My wife was nine months

25 pregnant. She was full term. I had to go and fetch her from Zvornik in

Page 12229

1 the morning. The road was impassable. So it was a life-or-death

2 situation. I had to go to the Drina, across the Drina, go to Zvornik,

3 bring my wife back. But my job didn't suffer. There were four or five

4 signalsmen and just one device. So that wasn't a problem at all. I was

5 the komandir and I assessed that I could go and get my wife without any

6 problems. So my job didn't suffer at all.

7 Q. Do you remember the night 14th, 15th before you went to see your

8 wife? Were you sleeping at all that night?

9 A. Probably I was. I don't know. I can't say. There were enough

10 of us there. Somebody was always awake. There was always somebody

11 manning the device, so it couldn't be left without anybody.

12 Q. Now, in those time, 14th, 15th, 16th, there was a time, was it

13 not, that the city of Zvornik, the town, was threatened by the Muslim

14 forces? Isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes. Very well, yes.

16 Q. And you remember that?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. And the commander, the acting commander, the chief of staff

19 Obrenovic, he was in the field and was trying to cope with that

20 situation. Is that also a fair statement?

21 A. All right, yes.

22 Q. Now, did you listen to open communication between the brigade

23 duty officer and the corps asking desperately for measures how to cope

24 with the situation? Do you remember those type of conversations?

25 A. No. No, I wasn't able to listen in to that. I couldn't listen

Page 12230

1 in to that communication. I was on the other side. That was a different

2 line altogether. I was from the brigade to the battalion, that

3 connection, not brigade corps line.

4 Q. Did somebody else from your squad was able to -- to listen in to

5 those kind of communications?

6 A. No, not from my mine.

7 Q. So your squad wasn't -- wasn't doing that.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, let me ask you, perhaps you can help us a little bit about

10 the call-signs. Do you remember who Omega was?

11 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

12 Q. How about Lovac?

13 A. I think that was me.

14 Q. And who was Lovac 1?

15 A. Chief of staff. When he goes into the field, he uses our

16 call-sign and adds a 1.

17 Q. That was Dragan Obrenovic.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you remember the call-sign or the real name of the person

20 Celik, C-e-l-i-k? Do you remember who that was?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, did you have any exchanges with Obrenovic, being Lovac 1?

23 You Lovac, Obrenovic Lovac 1. Did you have any exchanges on those

24 critical days, let's say the 14th of July.

25 A. There probably was something, but I can't be sure what. I can't

Page 12231

1 say exactly. Probably there was some sort of communication, but I really

2 don't remember. I can't say.

3 Q. And why can't you remember?

4 A. Well, it was a long time ago. And it's like this, listen here.

5 I don't think I had any connections with Obrenovic at one point. The

6 connection was lost. I'm sure about that.

7 Q. Well --

8 A. The connection line was lost.

9 Q. But if you had connections, were there many exchanges between you

10 and Mr. Obrenovic?

11 A. No. No. No, certainly not.

12 MR. WAESPI: Now, if the witness could be shown Exhibit 100 -- I

13 believe 121. And while that's being done --

14 Q. If you were absent, somebody else for you would take over Lovac

15 and communicate with whoever wanted to communicate with you; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, yes, yes.

18 Q. Perhaps if page 7 of the English version could be put onto the

19 ELMO, and -- in B/C/S. You'll be shown that page. Perhaps if you can

20 see somewhere in the middle, Mr. Mihic, there is an entry in your B/C/S

21 original and it says: "1825," "1825," and that's on the 14th July, "238

22 Lovac 1 - Lovac." Could you see that on your document?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, let me read what it says. It says: "They were attacked

25 there. They requested something to be sent. Is there anything," and

Page 12232

1 then it says, "came interrupted (L1)." I take it that's Lovac 1. And

2 then there is: "Igman informed Lovac what he (Vuk) came."

3 Now, do you remember this conversation?

4 A. I don't remember. No, no.

5 Q. So it's 14th July at 1825.

6 A. I don't remember. No.

7 Q. Now, we see here Igman. Do you know who Igman was?

8 A. I don't know. No, no.

9 Q. Now, let's go down a few lines, about four lines, and it says,

10 and I quote again: "On the frequency 293 at 2045 Igman 1 and Lovac 1 and

11 Lovac - surround the forces with war materiel, reinforcement is coming

12 from the Main Staff and now Mane's men are coming."

13 Again it's Lovac involved, your call-sign. Do you remember -

14 again, in the evening 14th July - do you remember this conversation?

15 A. I don't remember the conversation, but usually when I didn't pick

16 up and when Lovac 1 talked to someone, as far as I remember he would

17 usually use the Lovac codes -- call-sign without the number 1. So if

18 Lovac and Lovac 1 have a conversation, then that's what they say. But if

19 they talk to someone, they would just say Lovac because it was just the

20 same unit. So the signalsman who was where I was, he would follow Lovac

21 1, and he would report with the call-sign Lovac. So I didn't have the

22 need to involve myself. That's why you have Igman and Lovac. Why would

23 Igman have talked to Lovac? And what am I? Nothing.

24 Q. So these couple of conversations that we were discussing, you

25 don't remember anything about that.

Page 12233

1 A. I can't remember.

2 Q. And you don't remember any other conversation which would stick

3 out in your mind on that day.

4 A. I do remember the conversation. I don't know what day it was

5 exactly, but I do remember when the operations around Srebrenica started.

6 The -- it was reported to the centre that there was a long column, and

7 you couldn't see the end of the column. When the army platoon went for

8 reconnaissance and reconnoitring, then that was the first information,

9 when the scouts went out. So I received this information and conveyed it

10 further on, of course. Who received it, I can't say; the signalsman down

11 there. I don't know.

12 Q. And that was an army platoon from the Zvornik Brigade who was

13 down in Srebrenica.

14 A. No, no; not in Srebrenica. That was in the Zvornik portion,

15 Lijesanj or somewhere around there, towards Glodina and Kamenica. That's

16 where it was noticed. Now what the date was I don't know. You probably

17 have the right information. You must have the date. But that was the

18 first information I received, the first information that came in to me.

19 Q. And looking back, that is the one conversation which would stick

20 in your memory since today.

21 A. I remember that well. It was the first one, and I know that

22 exactly, for a fact.

23 Q. Any other conversation you recall now?

24 A. No, I can't remember.

25 MR. WAESPI: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

Page 12234

1 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Stojanovic?

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With Your Honour's permission,

3 just a few questions.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mihic.

6 A. Yes, go ahead, please.

7 Q. You said at one point during those days because of the intensity

8 of the fighting that was going on you know that Obrenovic was in the

9 field, on the spot; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, do you know whether Obrenovic during those days used a

12 vehicle of some kind?

13 A. Yes, he did. He went with a vehicle.

14 Q. Can you tell us what kind of vehicle?

15 A. Well, I can't remember the make. It was a jeep of some kind.

16 Q. And did he drive the jeep?

17 A. No, no. He had a driver.

18 Q. Right. He had a driver. Fine. Now, in the jeep was the

19 signalsman there that was assigned to him?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you tell us, please, from the crossroads leading to

22 Snagovo, from Crni Vrh to the Zvornik Brigade, how far is that journey?

23 How far is the route?

24 A. Well, I don't know. I'd say about ten, 12, 15 kilometres.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Waespi.

Page 12235

1 MR. WAESPI: I believe it now gets out of the scope of

2 cross-examination.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe so. You began to ask some questions

4 in some new areas. The re-examination should be within the scope of the

5 cross-examination.

6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, Your Honour.

7 Just one more question, then, and I'll wind up.

8 Q. How long does a vehicle take to get -- to pass that 10-12 route?

9 A. It takes 15 to 20 minutes.

10 Q. At one point you said that from time to time you would have a bad

11 connection, lose the connection with Obrenovic; is that right?

12 A. Yes, it was down.

13 Q. Does that show that he was moving around?

14 A. It indicates that he was moving around, and maybe my battery was

15 low. Maybe my battery was -- his battery was low and then he exchanged

16 his battery somewhere in the battalion later on. So his battery was low,

17 probably.

18 Q. Thank you. And you also said at one point that you remember that

19 on that day, the 14th or in the evening, that you lost all connection

20 with Obrenovic. Is that right? Can you tell us or can you remember when

21 that happened?

22 A. No, I can't.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further requests, Your

25 Honour.

Page 12236

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Now, at this stage are there any

2 documents to tender, Mr. Stojanovic?

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The documents

4 we used have already been tendered through Ljubo Bojanovic and

5 Mr. Butler. They're already in evidence, so there's no need.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. On the part of the Prosecution? No?

7 Well, thank you.

8 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to

9 give your evidence. Madam Usher will show you out of the room, and we

10 all wish you a pleasant journey back home. You may go.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE LIU: You may --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, before we have the next witness,

16 Mr. Stojanovic, how about next Monday and Tuesday? Do we have any

17 witnesses on these two days?

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] On Monday, as you know, we don't

19 have any witnesses because Mr. Vasic's statement will be according to

20 92 bis. And on Tuesday and Wednesday, according to the schedule, we are

21 to hear Mr. Dragan Jokic, unless there are some changes. In any event,

22 until the end of the day today, I'm going to inform you about that.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, could we hear Mr. Jokic next Monday, because

24 next Monday, Tuesday we might have the full day, but on Wednesday,

25 Thursday, or Friday, we may only have half day for, you know, the hearing

Page 12237

1 because we will have the Plenary Meeting, you know, during that day. So

2 my suggestion is that we should hear your witness as early as possible.

3 You may discuss with your client during the break and inform us

4 in time.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Could we have the next witness, please.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

11 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

17 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Our witness

19 is going to be led by Mr. Branko Lukic. So I would like to give the

20 floor to my co-counsel, Mr. Lukic.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I know that you are

23 surprised every time when I get up.

24 Examined by Mr. Lukic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Cvijetic.

Page 12238

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. For the record, can you please tell us your full name.

3 A. My name is Mihajlo Cvijetic.

4 Q. Again for the record, could you spell your first and last name.

5 A. M-i-h-a-j-l-o. My family name, C-v-i-j-e-t-i-c.

6 Q. When and where were you born?

7 A. I was born on the 28th of January, 1952, in Musici village in the

8 Municipality of Kupres, in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Q. Can you tell us something about your educational background,

10 where and when you finish the schools that you finished.

11 A. I finished elementary school in 1967 in Ravno village in the

12 Municipality of Kupres in the Socialist Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13 I finished school for non-commissioned officers engineers in Karlovac in

14 the Socialist Republic of Croatia. That was inform 1971. I completed

15 the military academy of the land army in 1978 in Belgrade, in the

16 Republic of Serbia. The General Staff school I completed in 1982 in

17 Belgrade. I also attended a course on the implementation of the

18 agreement in Prague, Oberammergau and Paris. I also attended a course

19 for de-mining and instruction of explosives in Chatham, London, the

20 United Kingdom. I also attended a course for de-mining and inspector for

21 the control of de-mining in the organisation of Banja Luka. I believe

22 this would be enough for the time being.

23 Q. I believe that it is more than enough.

24 During your service in the army of Republika Srpska, what

25 positions you held?

Page 12239

1 A. During my service in the Republika Srpska army, I was the chief

2 of engineers in a brigade. I was the inspector in the centre for

3 verification, and I also performed the duties of the officer for mine

4 clearance in the army of Republika Srpska.

5 Q. Did you represent the entire army of Republika Srpska in your

6 last position?

7 A. Yes. I represented the entire army of Republika Srpska, and I

8 was in constant contact with the SFOR, with the representatives of SFOR,

9 i.e., the representatives of the international organisations which are

10 engaged in mine clearance.

11 Q. I would kindly ask you to slow down a little so that our

12 interpreters could catch up with you and interpret all your words

13 properly.

14 A. Yes. Thank you.

15 Q. As we have already informed the Trial Chamber, you will be

16 testifying about the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina after the war.

17 We would like you to provide us with your insight into character of

18 Dragan Jokic.

19 First of all, can you tell us: Since when have you known Dragan

20 Jokic?

21 A. I have known Dragan Jokic since 1983, although I knew him even

22 before because he also attended the military academy and that's where I

23 saw him first. But since 1983, I have gotten to know him better, after

24 our education that we did, that we went together.

25 Q. In our conversation, you described your activities and the

Page 12240

1 activities of Dragan Jokic in the past date in Bosnia-Herzegovina by

2 dividing them into three segments.

3 A. Yes, yes, that's correct. I divided those activities into three

4 segments. I wanted to point to the activities pursuant to the

5 implementation of the agreement according to Article 4, according --

6 Article 2, and the role of Mr. Dragan Jokic in the mine clearance of the

7 areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

8 Q. The first segment would be the implementation of the accords

9 falling under the regional control of arms, in other words, Article 4 of

10 Annex 1. I would like to show you a document with this regard, and let

11 me first ask you: The documents that we're going to show to you, can you

12 tell us how did the Defence get -- got by those documents.

13 A. I brought these documents with me as I was preparing for this

14 trial testimony, as when I was informed that I would appear before this

15 Trial Chamber, I inspected all the documents. I wanted my testimony to

16 be based on facts, on -- based on information and knowledge. I wanted to

17 provide the best possible testimony, and that's why I brought these

18 documents with me.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher assist us in showing

20 the documents to the witness.

21 Q. One of the documents that you have provided to the Defence will

22 be shown to you. You gave this document to the Defence yesterday

23 evening.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We apologise to the Trial Chamber and

25 to our learned friends for the documents not being translated. I believe

Page 12241

1 -- I hope we will appreciate that we only got hold of these documents

2 yesterday evening, but we also hope that the witness will be able to

3 provide us with the explanation of the contents and the importance of the

4 documents.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this is the first time we've seen

8 these documents. We could have seen them tomorrow night -- or last

9 night. We could have some idea what they are. It is a bit absurd to be

10 using documents that could have had some meaning and they, really, now

11 have no meaning to us.

12 But given that this is the last witness and given the subject

13 matter, we will not object, but I just -- if there is any material for

14 the next witness, we would please request that we get it in a timely

15 manner.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I quite agree with you, and the -- I believe

17 that any new-obtained documents should be furnished as soon as possible

18 to the other party and to the Bench. Any pre-emptive attack is not

19 allowed.

20 But considering that those documents were not directly related to

21 the critical period, that is the July 1995, and the witness will testify

22 only on the character and the behaviours after the war of Mr. Jokic, we

23 allowed the Defence to use those documents. But it should be a warning

24 to the Defence team and in the future, if you have obtained any document,

25 please furnish it to the other party. As a rule, the pre-emptive attack

Page 12242

1 is not allowed.

2 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour. And as you

4 could see, I wasn't sitting in the first session because I was

5 photocopying these document at that time. So we really were not able to

6 provide Your Honours and the Prosecution with these documents earlier

7 than we did. Thank you.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijetic, please kindly tell us what the

9 document that is before you is about.

10 A. Mr. Dragan Jokic was engaged as an inspector of the control of

11 armament which can be seen from the message 0717 to 126. Under 32 it

12 says Dragan Jokic, male, born on 20 August 1957, and the identity card

13 number is here. Such a list was sent to all the parties to the

14 agreement, the verification centre of Croatia, the verification of

15 Yugoslavia, and verification centre of the army of the federation.

16 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness could slow down just a little,

17 please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On receipt of this document, all

19 the parties had the right to voice their objections to the document.

20 Every party retains the right to exclude any other inspectors that are on

21 the list.

22 JUDGE LIU: Witness, I understand that you're eager to give your

23 testimony, but whatever you said in this courtroom will be translated

24 into the other two languages. So please make a pause after each

25 sentence, and please speak slowly.

Page 12243

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Every party to the

2 agreement received such a list of inspectors, and all the parties have

3 the right to voice their objections to this list, which means that every

4 person listed herein may be excluded from the list.

5 The parties to the agreement did not have any objections to this

6 list, which means they did not have any objections to Dragan Jokic's name

7 on the list. So Mr. Jokic remained an inspector.

8 This list was also submitted to the OSCE, and I wanted to show

9 you the year 1996 on purpose, because, Your Honours, we believe that

10 those were decisive years, very difficult years. And those were the

11 years when human trades of the officers and the personnels who were

12 engaged on this task could be seen best. Many things, many activities

13 were not precisely regulated to the last letter. There was very little

14 experience at the time. And that is why personal trades of individuals

15 were so important.

16 Mr. Jokic, while performing this activity, showed and proved

17 himself, and he showed that the implementation of peace has no

18 alternative in Bosnia. As a person, as a human being, he made his

19 personal contribution towards the implementation of all the activities

20 that were planned according to this article.

21 Your Honours, there is an activity which is called escort. The

22 escort team is the one that receives the team of inspectors of the other

23 party. This is where Mr. Jokic was able --

24 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

Page 12244

1 MS. ISSA: I am objecting to this, Your Honour, because it

2 appears the witness is going into a very lengthy narrative without being

3 asked any particular questions. I don't think that's proper.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Lukic, I think you have to lead this

5 witness, and the proceedings in this trial is in a pattern of question

6 and answer. Maybe the witness is not familiar with this kind of

7 practice. But you have to take the lead.

8 MR. LUKIC: [In English] We'll both do our best, Your Honour.

9 Thank you.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijetic, your answers have to be a bit

11 shorter, please. However, I will ask you to finish what you started.

12 A. I wanted to finish with Article 4, and I would like to say that

13 Mr. Jokic's contribution was very correct when it comes to the activities

14 according to Article 4.

15 Q. Were there any objections to his work by the parties who were

16 informed about that?

17 A. As far as the parties were concerned, as far as the places where

18 we went to inspect, and as far as the parties who came to us to inspect,

19 there were no objections.

20 Q. The second segment that we will be addressing is the

21 implementation of the agreement on the measures for the building of

22 understanding and peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In what capacity was Mr. Dragan Jokic engaged in this segment?

25 A. As for Mr. Jokic's activities in this area, he was active as an

Page 12245

1 inspector. Secondly, he was active as a host during visits to bases.

2 Q. What did the position of inspector of weapons control entail?

3 A. The position of inspector of verification of weapons meant that

4 he had to be on the list of inspectors and had to go through the

5 appropriate training courses either at home or abroad.

6 Q. But what did the job consist in?

7 A. Well, he had to be in the inspection team and go to the other

8 side. Or if he was in an escort team, he had to be the host, receive the

9 teams from the other side and show them everything that was provided for

10 in the protocol.

11 Q. As a host, was he cooperative?

12 A. As regards cooperativeness, the entire range of activity

13 organised by Dragan Jokic's unit was done correctly and properly, both as

14 regards the unit itself and the team of the other side, the inspection

15 team.

16 Q. Were there any objections to Dragan Jokic's work in this area?

17 A. No, there were no objections to Mr. Jokic's work in this area.

18 And by your leave, by Their Honours' leave, I wish to say that it was

19 very fortunate that Article 2 has been fully implemented in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. This is something that gives me great satisfaction.

21 This year, the full implementation will be completed, and this,

22 of course, goes to the credit of all the people who participated in

23 creating and implementing this article, and Mr. Jokic has played a role

24 in all this.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the record, we have

Page 12246

1 had D76/3 shown to the witness. I wish to ask Madam Usher to show the

2 witness Exhibit D77/3.

3 Q. Mr. Cvijetic, would you please assist us, because as you have

4 heard, we have not had an opportunity to have this document translated

5 for the benefit of the Court and the Prosecution. Could you tell us what

6 this document is about.

7 A. Well, it's similar to the first document.

8 Q. Please slow down.

9 A. Thank you. This is a document like the first document we saw.

10 It again contains a list of inspectors for the year 1997, and Mr. Jokic

11 is under number 29, which means that he remained on the list of

12 inspectors in the following year. And this means, of course, that there

13 were no objections to his work. And this list was adopted.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Lukic, what is the number of this document?

16 It's 76 or 77?

17 MR. LUKIC: The latest document the number is 77/3.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

19 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, for clarity's sake, it appears to

20 contradict the list. I think the list says 135/3. So I'm just wondering

21 if perhaps we can have that clarified so that -- to avoid any future

22 confusion.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, to me it is 76/3.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, I've been informed by the Court Deputy that

Page 12247

1 this document should be 76/3. Let's stick to it.

2 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid, Your Honour, that the previous document

3 is 76. And also the confusion is created by correcting our numbers by

4 the Court Deputy.

5 JUDGE LIU: You know, the problem is that, you know, at this

6 moment maybe we are not very much care about numbers, because you know,

7 after this sitting -- or during the break the Court Deputy will discuss

8 with the Defence counsel to give me the correct number. The problem is

9 it is not translated into English, so we don't know actually which

10 document it is.

11 For instance, you know, in the list the witness told us that

12 Mr. Jokic is number 26, and we could only check it according to the date

13 of birth of this person. Otherwise, there is no other indications on

14 that. This is the very, you know, problem we are facing.

15 But anyway, you may go on and use the document. I think during

16 the break we should have a correct numbering of all those documents so we

17 know what you are talking about and what documents you are using.

18 You may proceed.

19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And I believe the

20 Prosecution now has corrected numbers. Am I right?

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijetic, it is our mistake that we did not

22 provide translations in time. Please don't worry about this yourself.

23 I would now like to move on to the third topic we have to discuss

24 today, and that is de-mining according to the standards of humanitarian

25 de-mining. Has Mr. Dragan Jokic been involved in this type of work?

Page 12248

1 A. Your Honours, when broaching this topic, allow me to say that the

2 removal of mines and the de-mining of minefields is the most complex

3 activity and the most high-risk activity, both for the person carrying

4 out the de-mining and for the users of the de-mined area.

5 In this case, referring to Mr. Dragan Jokic, I can state openly

6 and with full responsibility that he personally invested a great deal of

7 effort in carrying out these activities properly.

8 Q. Thank you. Did Mr. Jokic participate in these activities from

9 the very beginning?

10 A. Yes. I will again mention the problem of the year 1996, when

11 soldiers were suddenly dismissed so that engineers and officers were

12 practically left on their own, and there was simply no other way but for

13 an officer to take up an instrument, put on a helmet and personally work

14 on removing mines so that the return of refugees could proceed according

15 to plan. Mr. Jokic personally did this work.

16 Q. Would you tell us what his personal involvement consisted in, in

17 the very beginning.

18 A. With respect to his personal involvement, I will again refer to

19 the complexity of the situation we found ourselves in. What I wish to

20 say here is that Mr. Jokic took an instrument in his hand to feel for the

21 mines, and he personally -- it was a kind of probe. And he personally

22 took part in de-mining to ensure that it proceeded according to plan.

23 All this took place in villages, hamlets, to which mostly Muslims were to

24 return, the Muslim population. That was the situation. Jokic first did

25 this personally, then he trained a group, and later on he did this in

Page 12249

1 cooperation with SFOR. SFOR helped us to organise ourselves, and he took

2 part in these activities then.

3 Q. Did Mr. Jokic take part in training de-mining personnel?

4 A. Yes, yes. As soon as the first training course was completed by

5 SFOR we organised training in our units, and Mr. Jokic was in charge of

6 this training. He selected commanders, komandirs, and people to work on

7 de-mining. He selected them for this task.?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

9 help us with the following document. The next document should be D79/3.

10 Q. Mr. Cvijetic, what segment of Mr. Jokic's participation can we

11 see in this document?

12 A. Your Honour, this document before us shows that Mr. Dragan Jokic,

13 through his personal activity, made it possible for Captain Radenko

14 Petrovic to take over the duty of komandir of a de-mining unit. And

15 Mr. Dragan Jokic took on part of his job in order to help Lieutenant

16 Dragan Simic. And we can see that from this document.

17 Later on, during his later activities, we can see that this was a

18 very helpful move.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're finished with this document. I

20 would now like to ask Madam Usher to assist us with the next document,

21 D85/3.

22 Q. Mr. Cvijetic, I will ask you, first of all, what the harvest

23 drive refers to.

24 A. Your Honours, the harvest drive was organised by SFOR from time

25 to time. It was a drive to gather explosive devices, mines, weapons, and

Page 12250

1 other military equipment. The citizens would bring these items to the

2 barracks. They would report them and hand them in. Every unit was

3 duty-bound to receive these items, to take an inventory, to list them and

4 to destroy them.

5 The engineers were mostly active in destroying explosive devices

6 and mines. We did this first, and then our colleagues from SFOR took

7 over this duty, which made it easier for us to do the job.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Lukic, I think this is not a good approach.

9 My suggestion is that you read that document in B/C/S so the

10 interpretation booth could have it translated into English, because this

11 document is not very long. But it will help us to know where is that

12 harvest thing, you know. Otherwise we are in total darkness.

13 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijetic, would you be kind enough to read

15 out for us this document so that Their Honours and the Prosecution can

16 know what it's about.

17 A. When I was preparing to testify here, I only wanted to show this

18 as an example, as a kind of sample. There are many such documents. The

19 zetva or harvest drivers were planned every three months, and then every

20 six months, and then as things quieted down, once a year and so on.

21 I have taken this document as an example, simply to remind us of

22 all this.

23 Q. Can you please tell us who is sending the document to whom, and

24 could you read out its content.

25 A. The command of the 503rd Motorised Brigade carried out a drive to

Page 12251

1 gather equipment and materiel as part of the Zetva or harvest drive, and

2 it is sending this document to the command of the 5th Corps, and it says:

3 "In the period from the 16th of August, to the 23rd of August,

4 2002, as part of the 'Zetva' or harvest drive, from the MUP of Republika

5 Srpska, public security sector in Zvornik, we received a certain amount

6 of weapons and ammunition which we stored in the depot Glinica 1."

7 Second paragraph: "Please find attached a list of the equipment

8 and materiel collected in this period."

9 And from this document, we can see that four anti-personnel mines

10 were collected, four -- as the witness said, hand grenades. And this is

11 what was destroyed in the brigade. This is what the brigade destroyed.

12 This is the document I was commenting on.

13 Your Honours, please take into account that this is only a random

14 sample. I didn't follow this from the year 1996 because if I had, there

15 would have been many more such documents.

16 Q. Thank you. We've finished with that document. I'm now going to

17 show you another document which luckily everyone in the courtroom will be

18 able to understand because it's the only document we have in English.

19 Mr. Cvijetic, this is a document which you provided to Dragan

20 Jokic's Defence team last night.

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. Do you know what it's about?

23 A. Yes. I am particularly happy that this is 1996, which was the

24 most complex and difficult year in view of the activities that were

25 ongoing, and Major Jokic was given this certificate of achievement from

Page 12252

1 cooperation with his colleagues at the SFOR, and I think it speaks for

2 itself and it confirms what I've already said in my testimony about him.

3 Once again, let me repeat that the de-mining or doing away with

4 mines is the most complex operation, and only somebody with - how shall I

5 put this? - a strong will and a lot of knowledge can tackle this kind of

6 task.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the record, this is document

8 number D80/3. Thank you.

9 Q. I'm now going to show you the next document. To save time, I'm

10 just going to read the contents of the document.

11 "Multinational Division (S), recognition or acknowledgement is

12 given to team S/5/1. It's an award for exceptional results achieved in

13 work on de-mining the -- on the de-mining campaign in the summer of 1998

14 accorded to the de-mining team.

15 "Your excellent work has helped in the elimination of mines and

16 resettlement of civilians in the area. Your efforts serve the honour of

17 the unit -- are to the credit of the unit."

18 It is the multinational division. S is Sever or north. To SFOR

19 and to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Now, when it says that this was a team S/5/1, who is that? Who

21 was that?

22 A. Your Honours, this was the team provided by the 503rd Brigade.

23 It was the one in which Mr. Jokic worked, and it was through his

24 endeavours that this team took part in the work on de-mining the surfaces

25 which had been mined.

Page 12253

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And for the record, it is document

2 D91/3.

3 [In English] And, Your Honour, is it a good time to have a break

4 now?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will have a break and we will resume at

6 12.30.

7 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please continue, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 I would like Madam Usher to help us with two more documents we'll

12 hopefully understand.

13 Q. [No translation]

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

15 MS. ISSA: I'm not sure if there was any translation.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English? Can you hear the

17 English?

18 JUDGE LIU: Would you please repeat your question, Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijetic, on the screen in front of you

21 there is a photograph showing a group of soldiers. Could you please tell

22 us, if you remember, where and when this photograph was taken and who you

23 can recognise on it.

24 A. Mr. President, on this photograph I recognise Mr. Jokic. He is

25 next to the civilian, standing next to the civilian.

Page 12254

1 Q. You have to show us on the ELMO and use your pointer, please.

2 A. This is Mr. Jokic. Next -- that's Mr. Jokic. Then I also

3 recognise Mr. Eric. And the others are colleagues from the army of

4 federation or, rather, the army of the federation and our colleagues from

5 SFOR working on the de-mining project. But I should particularly like to

6 emphasise Mr. Eric here, because Mr. Jokic proposed that Mr. Eric could

7 continue working on de-mining projects for the coming period, and that's

8 what happened next. He was a younger officer. He was a lieutenant

9 colonel at the time. A 2nd lieutenant, actually.

10 But otherwise this is a group photograph of people working on the

11 de-mining project as a momentum [as interpreted] for us, and Mr. Jokic,

12 and everyone else.

13 Q. Just briefly let's see the second set of photographs?

14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Lukic, you have to ask a question when this

15 picture was taken and where it is.

16 MR. LUKIC: I did, Your Honour, but I don't think I got a

17 response, so I didn't.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please. For the sake of the record, please

19 repeat your question.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Cvijetic, do you happen to remember where and when the

22 photograph was taken?

23 A. Well, I can't remember exactly. I think it was -- I can't

24 remember exactly. It was at the beginning, so I can't tell you exactly,

25 I'm afraid, but I think it was in Doboj or -- just a moment, please.

Page 12255

1 Just give me a second. No, I'm sorry, I can't give you an exact answer

2 to give you a time frame.

3 Q. Do you remember the time?

4 A. Well, roughly speaking, this is 1997. 1997 is the year.

5 Q. Thank you. And now let's take a look at these other photographs.

6 A. These photographs here, I can recognise Mr. Jokic, the OSCE

7 representative, OSCE. So it was cooperation there, an instance of

8 cooperation.

9 A colonel of the Swiss army on this side here. I can recognise

10 him. It was a long time ago. And Mr. Jokic. They're sitting there

11 together.

12 Then the representative of the multinational division north and

13 Mr. Jokic. And here we have the inspectors and Mr. Jokic with them.

14 Here we have an exchange of gifts with the representative of the

15 army of the federation, probably when they were visiting the base.

16 And here once again we have him with the representative of the

17 multinational division north, him and Mr. Jokic.

18 So all these photographs testify to a very proper and concrete

19 form of cooperation, concrete and proper cooperation with representatives

20 of the SFOR, with representatives of international organisations with the

21 aim of timely and professional de-mining.

22 Q. Thank you. And for the record, these were exhibits, Defence

23 Exhibits D82/3-1 and D81/3-2.

24 The usher will now give you another document to look at, and I'm

25 going to ask you whether the execution of tasks given -- that you had

Page 12256

1 after the war that Mr. Jokic took part in, were they easy and simple

2 tasks that you were given to carry out? Tell us first whether they were

3 simple, whether it was easy to carry out the assignments that you had

4 given before you. Or were there many obstacles?

5 A. Mr. President, we have a document here which speaks about the

6 implementation of the Dayton Accords and the attending documents, where

7 the command of the 5th Corps conducted an analysis, and in the frameworks

8 of that analysis mention is made of certain problems -- and I should

9 especially like to stress that this was done in 1999. That was the date

10 when they speak about major problems. In continuation of the document,

11 it says problems occurring during inspection.

12 Q. Could you please tell us briefly, looking through the document

13 which is Defence Exhibit D83/3, what kind of problems you encountered.

14 What does it say in the document dated 1999?

15 A. Mr. President, in this document the problems that occurred when

16 we conducted inspection, that is to say three years later, there were

17 large quantities of ammunition in -- not in their original wrapping. A

18 lot of bulk ammunition not in its own original wrapping and casing. So

19 to establish what the situation was, we had to spend a great deal of time

20 in sizing up the situation, and it required, I would say, a lot of

21 courage too.

22 Then we didn't have enough warehouse space and the proper

23 warehouse space for storing this materiel and making a list of what we

24 stored, keeping records, and lack of training on the part of those

25 handling the materiel and equipment.

Page 12257

1 So first of all to see what materiel there was, to record the

2 materiel, the lack of necessary documentation pertaining to the materiel

3 equipment, and the keeping of records in three types of records. We had

4 the SFOR records, the OSCE records, and the Military Accountancy Centre

5 of Banja Luka, their records. So three sets of records.

6 I don't want to go into the different problems of the different

7 areas of activity, but I'd just like to focus on those three aspects. A

8 large number of materiel and equipment; not the proper storage space; and

9 not enough training of personnel, not enough professional people to deal

10 with the situation. So all these problems had to be addressed, and each

11 of the units had its assignments to perform in that regard, and Mr. Jokic

12 did too. Mr. Jokic worked with his unit on matters of this kind, because

13 in view of the fact that the engineers had to do with the bulk of the

14 work related to mines and de-mining and ammunition and so on, both to

15 test its operational use, the quantity and storing such materiel and

16 equipment too.

17 And I should once again like to emphasise that this was three

18 years later.

19 Q. And in that connection let me ask you this: The situation in

20 1996 and 1997, was it worse or not? Worse or better?

21 A. The situation was incalculably worse in the terms of pointers

22 stipulated here. So at that time we had a lot of material dispersed over

23 a large area, and we had to locate all this materiel and devices and to

24 make records of it and so on.

25 Q. Very well, Mr. Cvijetic. These are our questions of you. I

Page 12258

1 don't know if Mr. Karnavas will have some questions of you, and after

2 that I would ask you to kindly answer the questions put to you by our

3 learned friends and the Trial Chamber. Thank you very much?

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

5 Mr. Karnavas, do you have any questions to be put to this

6 witness?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. I may have one or two

8 questions.

9 JUDGE LIU: Oh, yes, please.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

12 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. We haven't met or spoken, but let me ask you whether you know

15 Mr. Blagojevic.

16 A. Yes, sir, I do.

17 Q. We understand that he was an engineer by training in the

18 military. My question to you is: During this critical period of time

19 that you've been testifying, that is after the Dayton Accords, do you

20 know whether Mr. Blagojevic participated with the international

21 community, international forces, in events such as the de-mining, events

22 that you've been talking about?

23 A. Yes, he did. He was a member of the initial conference that

24 held -- that was held in Vienna in 1996. And from then on, from that

25 meeting on, Mr. Blagojevic planned, managed and organised the system of

Page 12259

1 de-mining in the army of Republika Srpska, and he also cooperated with

2 the army of the federation, the SFOR and other international

3 organisations. His cooperation was very correct, very good, very rich.

4 And this was a very fruitful period in the life of Colonel Blagojevic in

5 that area.

6 Q. Thank you very much, sir?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Ms. Issa.

9 MS. ISSA: Yes. Good afternoon, Your Honours. I do have a few

10 questions. Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, please.

12 Cross-examined by Ms. Issa:

13 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I just have a couple of questions, sir.

14 You're not aware of Mr. Jokic ever telling anyone where the victims of

15 the Srebrenica massacre were or the location of the mass graves, are you?

16 A. Did he ever tell anybody? I'm afraid I didn't understand your

17 question. Could you please repeat it.

18 Q. Did he say anything at all about identifying the location of the

19 mass graves? Did he assist in any way to do that, to the international

20 forces?

21 A. I really don't know. I don't know if he ever said that to

22 anybody. And he never said it to me personally, and -- I'm not aware of

23 that. Whether he said it to anybody else, I really wouldn't be able to

24 tell you anything to that effect.

25 Q. Okay. And by the same token, sir, I take it that you're not

Page 12260

1 aware of Mr. Blagojevic ever assisting international forces with

2 identifying the location of the mass graves, are you?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, Your Honour. It calls for speculation,

4 and she needs to lay a foundation which we don't have any in any way that

5 Mr. Blagojevic was ever involved in any of these activities. So if she

6 can lay a foundation then she can ask the question, but the question

7 assumes a fact that's not in evidence, as it's posed.

8 JUDGE LIU: I believe that witness can answer the question

9 whether it's yes or no, just like he answered the question that was put

10 to Mr. Jokic.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MS. ISSA:

14 Q. Could you answer that question, sir?

15 A. I'm a Bosnian. You have to repeat your question at least twice.

16 I hail from Bosnia, and that's what you have to do with us Bosnians. So

17 can you please repeat the question that referred to Mr. Blagojevic.

18 Q. Okay. I will do that. Do you know whether Colonel Blagojevic

19 ever assisted international forces in locating the mass graves?

20 A. I really don't know whether it was ever asked from

21 Colonel Blagojevic, whether anybody asked Colonel Blagojevic to do that.

22 I really don't know if anybody requested that from Colonel Blagojevic.

23 If anybody had, I'm sure that he would share any information that he

24 might have had with the person that requested it. I know Blagojevic very

25 well, and I'm sure he would have done that. I don't know whether anybody

Page 12261

1 asked that of him. I can't say yes or no.

2 In any case, if anybody had asked him to share that information,

3 I'm sure he would have shared it, had he known where that was.

4 Q. Okay. During the period of 1996 and 1997, did you know that

5 Mr. Obrenovic and Mr. Jokic were -- got into trouble or were caught for

6 hiding ammunition from SFOR? Are you aware of that?

7 A. You know what? I have presented information here, and I've told

8 you about the problems that we encountered in the course of our work.

9 For example, SFOR comes today and inspects your weapons. Overnight a

10 certain quantity of weapons is found somewhere else and a peasant brings

11 it to you, and you face a problem because the duty operations officer

12 doesn't report it, and when the inspection returns, this becomes a

13 problem.

14 In any case, I'm not aware of any problems involving the hiding

15 of weapons. I believe that this cooperation was always correct.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

18 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted to let the witness answer the question,

19 but I think that it would be fair toward the witness to tell him who said

20 something, or what was the evidence, or to lay some kind of foundation.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well -- but anyway, the witness answered that he was

22 not aware of any problems involving the hiding of the weapons. So it's

23 over. But if the witness answered the other way, I believe that is the

24 responsibility for the Prosecutor to present some evidence.

25 I think this matter is answered.

Page 12262

1 Yes, Ms. Issa.

2 MS. ISSA: I don't have any further questions, Your Honour, but

3 perhaps to assist, Ms. Sinatra was actually the person who posed those

4 questions to Mr. Obrenovic and that's where we got that from.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any redirect?

6 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. At this stage are there any documents to

10 tender? Mr. Lukic?

11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, and we believe that the Prosecution

12 won't be able to say whether they object or no. It would probably be

13 subject to translation. But we would like to tender these documents we

14 used today, and those are numbers D76/3, D77/3, D78/3 -- sorry, 79/3,

15 D80/3 D81/3, D82/3, D82/3 and D85/3.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. McCloskey.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have no objection to those being used -- dealt

18 with the same way the ones I think yesterday, that they provisionally be

19 allowed, and if we have any problems, we'll let the Court know.

20 JUDGE LIU: I see. But document D80/3 is written in English.

21 It's a certification, as well as the document D82/3-1 and -2. Those are

22 two photos. So at this stage we could make a decision on those two

23 documents. They are admitted into evidence.

24 As for the other evidence, I'm afraid we cannot admit them at

25 this moment, but later on if we see the translation I believe that we

Page 12263

1 will consider those documents' admission at that time. Thank you. So

2 decided.

3 Well, Witness, thank you very much indeed for coming to The Hague

4 to give your evidence. We wish you a pleasant journey back home. Madam

5 Usher will show you out of the room.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And if

7 you will allow me, would like to say a sentence.

8 I would kindly ask this Tribunal to address the issue of

9 de-mining and to use its reputation with certain institutions that might

10 have a say in the legal regulation of this problem. I myself have been a

11 victim of a mine, and I know what it looks like when a mine is laid and

12 what happens when somebody is hurt by a mine. So I would kindly ask you

13 if you could raise this issue with the authorities to give it the proper

14 legality.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may go now.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, we booked this courtroom until 7.00 today, and

18 we finished the witness before 1.00. At this stage, are there any other

19 matters that the parties would like to raise?

20 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, Mr. Karnavas and I can argue for the next

22 six hours if you like, but you probably don't want to hear us.

23 Mr. Stojanovic and I were able to talk about the expert report of

24 the witness yesterday. And we did actually take Mr. Karnavas's idea and

25 we did keep the basics of the report and I believe agreed on areas that

Page 12264

1 would not be in. So that, I think, should be resolved.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think if, Mr. Stojanovic, you could submit

3 that redacted, if I say, redacted report we will have it admitted into

4 the evidence.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yesterday, we

6 had a long meeting, and we discussed the expert report in depth, and we

7 agreed on the contents of the report. Our associate Dragoslav Djukic has

8 prepared that, and as soon as this session is finished we're going to

9 provide the Prosecutor with the redacted report in B/C/S and in English,

10 and after that we're going to also provide it to the Trial Chamber with

11 our proposal for this redacted report to be admitted into evidence as a

12 Defence exhibit. And this also refers to the translation of the rules of

13 service and the instruction on the work of commands that we tendered into

14 evidence yesterday.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.

16 Yes, Mr. McCloskey? You must have some clarifications; right?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe Mr. Stojanovic may have one other

18 announcement, and I would see what he had to say first before I ask the

19 question.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm

22 convinced that Mr. McCloskey could not argue with me for six hours.

23 Maybe this is just throwing the ball into my part of the courtyard.

24 I just wanted to inform you that with today's day and with this

25 last witness we have finished the presentation of Defence exhibits.

Page 12265

1 And we would like to inform that during the last break we have

2 finally been authorised to inform you that Dragan Jokic, for the reasons

3 for the security of his son, primarily, does not want to testify on his

4 behalf, and I would kindly ask you to make a note of that. We are not

5 going to have any evidence to present next week before this Trial

6 Chamber.

7 In any case, thank you for the time that you were willing to give

8 us. We have tried to use that time rationally and effectively with our

9 witnesses in the best intention to help our client.

10 So this brings the Defence case officially to an end.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. As I said before that we fully

12 respect the free will of your client. Whatever decisions he makes, we'll

13 respect it. Thank you.

14 Could we go to the private session, please.

15 [Private session]

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 12266












12 Pages 12266 to 12276 redacted private session.














Page 12277

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that there is nothing else on

19 the agenda, and I'm very glad to say that we finished the Defence case of

20 Mr. Jokic ahead of time, and I understand there are some leftover

21 housekeeping matters to deal with, especially concerning some documents

22 which has not been admitted into evidence. I hope the parties will make

23 submissions before the end of the whole case so that we could consider

24 the admission of those documents in due time.

25 I would like to repeat that if any party have the rebuttal or

Page 12278

1 rejoinder case or reopening his case, they could file us before the 26th

2 of August so that we could be prepared for any hearing -- possible

3 hearings in the future.

4 I believe that's all I have to say. If there is nothing else the

5 parties would like to raise at this stage, we declare the hearing is

6 adjourned.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st

9 day of September, 2004