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  1. 1 Thursday, 16 July 1998

    2 --- Upon commencing at 10.13 a.m.

    3 (Open session)

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Have the

    5 accused brought in, please?

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning to the

    8 interpreters and to the court reporters. We can now

    9 resume our work. According to what we were told

    10 yesterday by both parties, we would like to welcome

    11 Mr. Kehoe back, and a large number of witnesses we're

    12 going to hear today, right?

    13 MR. KEHOE: One, I believe, Judge.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Then we're going to

    15 hear the one witness. The floor is yours.

    16 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good

    17 morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, counsel. The

    18 witness this morning is Dr. Colin Kaiser from UNESCO

    19 and Dr. Kaiser's testimony will focus on the

    20 destruction of sacral and cultural monuments and for

    21 the most part Islamic sacral and cultural monuments

    22 that were destroyed in the Lasva valley area, Busovaca

    23 area as well as the Kiseljak area.

    24 Dr. Kaiser has been studying this subject for

    25 sometime, in the former Yugoslavia since the early

  2. 1 '90s. During that period of time, he was assigned by

    2 the council of Europe to do a series of studies on the

    3 destruction of sacral and cultural monuments throughout

    4 the former Yugoslavia and the impact that destruction

    5 had on the various ethnic cultures who suffered that

    6 damage.

    7 He will explain to Your Honours, with some of

    8 the photographs that are in evidence, and a sampling of

    9 photographs that have not been received into evidence,

    10 exactly what the various religious, sacral or cultural

    11 structures are used for, why it is that one would

    12 destroy this type of structure, and the impact, again,

    13 on the ethnic group, in this case, the Muslim ethnic

    14 group, of such destruction. He will likewise offer

    15 some conclusions on what the entity in this case, the

    16 HVO, might be attempting to accomplish by such a

    17 destruction of Islamic sacral and cultural

    18 institutions.

    19 His presentation will focus, in the main, on

    20 two counts, and that count is count 1, the persecution

    21 count which, of course, encompasses as part of it, the

    22 destruction -- persecution of the Bosnian Muslim

    23 population in Central Bosnia and as a method of doing

    24 that, the destruction of their sacral and cultural

    25 monuments, and in the main count 14, which is a list of

  3. 1 various cultural and sacral monuments in Kizeljak,

    2 Busovaca and Vitez that were destroyed by the HVO

    3 during the operative time frame.

    4 That will essentially be Dr. Kaiser's

    5 testimony, beginning with some background and moving

    6 down to the specifics as he goes through the pictures.

    7 I think it might be somewhat more efficient,

    8 Mr. President, if the photographs that have been

    9 provided to Mr. Dubuisson could be marked and be given

    10 to Dr. Kaiser so that he might begin his testimony to

    11 Your Honour and move these photographs on and off the

    12 ELMO as he sees fit. If there's no objection with the

    13 court, that might be a more efficient method to

    14 employ. And certainly, giving the new photographs to

    15 Defence council at this point, is perfectly

    16 appropriate.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: This doesn't cause any problems

    18 for the Judges. Does it cause any problems for

    19 Mr. Hayman? Very well. All right. We can work that

    20 way. Registrar, have the usher bring Dr. Kaiser into

    21 the courtroom, please.

    22 (The witness entered court)

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Dr. Kaiser, we have to ask you

    24 to remain standing for a few moments. Please, put your

    25 headset on and we ask you to remain standing for a few

  4. 1 moments. First of all, to confirm your title, your

    2 family name, your given name and then to read your

    3 solemn declaration. First give us your title, then

    4 your family name and -- we have to know who you are

    5 first.

    6 THE WITNESS: My name is Dr. Colin Kaiser.

    7 I'm the UNESCO representative in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. Now

    9 please read the oath.

    10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    11 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    12 truth.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. Please be

    14 seated now. You have been called by the Prosecution as

    15 part of the trial of Colonel Blaskic, the accused who

    16 is in this courtroom. The Prosecutor has given us a

    17 quick summary of the general sense of your testimony,

    18 and he will now ask you some questions after which, of

    19 course, you will be asked some questions by the Defence

    20 and by the Judges. Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

    21 WITNESS: Dr. Colin Kaiser

    22 Examined by Mr. Kehoe:

    23 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,

    24 Dr. Kaiser. Mr. Kaiser, before we begin your

    25 testimony, can you tell the Judges a little bit about

  5. 1 yourself, your educational background, your

    2 professional background, and I know that you noted that

    3 you are UNESCO's representative in Bosnia-Herzegovina

    4 at this point. You could tell the Judges what that

    5 exactly means.

    6 A. Well, I'm a social and institutional

    7 historian by training, a specialist in old regime

    8 France. Most of my professional life has not been

    9 involved directly in history, in any exercise and

    10 practice of history. I have worked in the

    11 International Council Monuments and Sites where I

    12 became director, so my main interest over the past ten

    13 years, really, has been cultural heritage. I passed

    14 from the International Council Monuments and Sites to

    15 UNESCO where I worked for them as a consultant in

    16 cultural heritage.

    17 In October 1995, when the cease-fire began in

    18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I was asked by UNESCO to take up

    19 the post of representative in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that

    20 is, the head of mission, the chief of office, so I'm

    21 now responsible for carrying out, elaborating sometimes

    22 UNESCO projects in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in education, in

    23 cultural heritage, in media. I spent a lot of time in

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia during the wars. I'm

    25 spending a lot of time in Bosnia now hoping to see the

  6. 1 pieces of the society come back together, to see it

    2 reconstructed. It's a very important job for me,

    3 privately. When you have seen things come apart, it's

    4 nice to see them come back together and try to

    5 contribute to that.

    6 Q. During the course of your work in UNESCO, you

    7 have been called to the Tribunal here in The Hague to

    8 testify before, have you not, sir?

    9 A. Yes, I have.

    10 Q. Now, let us just discuss for a moment what

    11 you said at the outset, and if you could again explain

    12 to the Judges your involvement in the study of sacral

    13 and cultural monuments in the former Yugoslavia,

    14 through the beginning of your work with the council of

    15 Europe, and if you could then explain to the Judges, as

    16 we move from the general to the more specific, the

    17 prescription of your work, how you do your work now,

    18 and if you could move down to the level of destruction

    19 of sacral and cultural monuments in Central Bosnia, and

    20 specifically areas under HVO control. Could you do

    21 that for us, sir?

    22 A. Yes. It began, in fact, with UNESCO, because

    23 I was one of two UNESCO observers sent to Dubrovnik in

    24 November and December of 1991. I was present in

    25 Dubrovnik during the Saint Nicholas Day bombardment on the

  7. 1 6th of December. It was quite a terrifying

    2 experience. It was a very eye opening experience, in

    3 the sense that the destruction, the bombardment of

    4 cultural and religious objects, the attack on the city

    5 which was completely defenceless seemed to me a very

    6 novel way to wage war.

    7 When the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina began,

    8 the fear, the sentiment that I had that this was a war

    9 which was not just about taking military objectives in

    10 the strict sense of the term, but these were wars about

    11 perhaps of identity which means that other things were

    12 also being targeted. It was very clear to us that the

    13 international community, at the beginning of the

    14 Bosnian war, wasn't very interested in these things.

    15 There was some sort of information from Sarajevo when

    16 the Vijecnica, the national university library, was set

    17 on fire, and that was kind of an archetypal crime

    18 against cultural heritage. But considering that the

    19 war was all over the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    20 there was great concern, at least in small circles,

    21 that, in fact, it was the military actions or

    22 post-military actions were taking place against the

    23 symbols of peoples' identity.

    24 My work with the council of Europe began

    25 merely in -- it began in the summer of 1992, but the

  8. 1 first time we were able to go on mission was in

    2 November of 1992. It was extremely hard to go on

    3 mission because none of the international community

    4 would say that it's a proper mandate. UNPROFOR didn't

    5 have a mandate for cultural heritage. The European

    6 community monitoring mission didn't have a mandate for

    7 it. The UNHCR didn't have a mandate for it. So it

    8 took awhile to get into the field.

    9 The first mission was in Neretva valley.

    10 This, in some ways, was even more frightening and

    11 awesome than the mission in the Dubrovnik area because

    12 the amount of damage, for example, done to Mostar in

    13 the first battle of Mostar, by the Bosnian- Serbian

    14 army, in the period of three months, was really quite

    15 astounding.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me a second. It's

    17 written here that the first mission was in Neretva

    18 valley. You mean Lasva valley? Neretva valley?

    19 A. Neretva valley, the first mission for the

    20 council of Europe.

    21 Also, what was astounding was the reprisal

    22 activity. I had never seen a dynamited church. I had

    23 never seen a dynamited church from the 16th century,

    24 Zitomislic, which is an Orthodox monastery, or the new

    25 Orthodox church in Mostar, on the east side. This war

  9. 1 was much more savage than the war that I had seen in

    2 the Dubrovnik commune. It took awhile to organise

    3 other missions. What I did mainly during 1993, was

    4 that I was recording information that was coming in,

    5 writing reports about what might be happening, with a

    6 sense of great frustration. There was some information

    7 that was filtering in. The destruction of the mosque

    8 in Banja Luka in May 1993. There was information about

    9 that. There was some sort of reaction to it. The

    10 destruction of the old bridge in Mostar in November

    11 1993. That's another example where the international

    12 media became very interested, very briefly.

    13 In 1994, was the first time that Bosnia sort

    14 of came open to our activities. I was writing

    15 information reports for the council of Europe. The

    16 point of writing information reports was to hopefully

    17 build up some sort of reaction on the part of

    18 government members' states of the council of Europe,

    19 not so much public opinion. If you didn't have good

    20 information, you couldn't hope that your reports were

    21 going to have much of an impact. 1994, we had a very

    22 interesting echo from the European community monitoring

    23 commission. The sort of interest in what was going on

    24 came from the field, it came from the monitors

    25 themselves. They began to see in Bosnia that an awful

  10. 1 lot of things were happening, and also in Croatia, and

    2 they were much more open to cooperating with the

    3 council of Europe than in the preceding years.

    4 So in March 1994, I carried out a mission in

    5 western Herzegovina and also parts of the United

    6 Nations protection areas. And then in May and June

    7 1994, with European community monitoring mission, I

    8 carried out a mission in Central Bosnia. This was an

    9 important mission from the point of view of

    10 information. It covered the front zones between the

    11 Armija, the Bosnian Serbian army. It also concerned

    12 the Central Bosnia area, about which there was not so

    13 much information. Of course, we all heard about the

    14 Ahmici massacre in 1993. We had all sorts of rumours

    15 about other activities that had been carried out in the

    16 area, ethnic cleansing which was alleged. We had

    17 information that the Franciscan monastery in Guca Gora

    18 had been totally destroyed, that the great collections

    19 in the Franciscan monastery of Kraljeva Sutisca (phoen)

    20 had been totally dispersed, and this last case, if it

    21 was actually true, it would have been a very, very

    22 serious cultural loss. But the truth of the matter is,

    23 again, we knew nothing about it. Convoys were going

    24 everywhere. You see them all over the place. There's

    25 the other organs of the international community, but we

  11. 1 didn't really know what was going on.

    2 So ECCM took me in, and concerning the areas

    3 which are of interest in the case against Mr. Blaskic,

    4 I did visit parts of the Vitez pocket. I was able to

    5 photograph a few buildings. I visited Busovaca. I

    6 went very quickly through the Kiseljak area, which was

    7 considered to be extremely dangerous. You couldn't

    8 even get out of the vehicle. You couldn't take

    9 pictures. That was the extent of my activity, in fact,

    10 in Central Bosnia, in this mission in 1994.

    11 I continued working after that. I worked in

    12 Mostar for UNESCO. I continued even in the rest of the

    13 war to do more small monitoring activities with ECMM

    14 which also set up their own monitoring system of

    15 cultural and sacral heritage. Also, in the post-war

    16 period, we continued to monitor churches and mosques

    17 because they continue, in periods of tension, to be

    18 targeted. There had been mosques burned in Western

    19 Herzegovina. There have been church towers dynamited

    20 in Central Bosnia before the last elections last year.

    21 There have been churches fired, also in Central Bosnia

    22 since. All these things that have happened, we have to

    23 be interested in. One of my duties as a UNESCO

    24 representative is to make sure that sacral buildings,

    25 sacral property are respected. Sadly enough, there are

  12. 1 cycles, in which even in the peace time, they are not.

    2 Earlier this year, I was requested by ICTY to

    3 help them in terms of gathering information, evaluating

    4 information, that is, evaluating information that the

    5 Tribunal had, but also going out in the terrain to see

    6 what the situation was in the municipalities which are

    7 covered by this trial, the municipalities of Vitez,

    8 Busovaca and Kiseljak. So from April to June, this

    9 year, this is what I did. I examined mosques, mesjids

    10 and mektebs in these three municipalities, and the rest

    11 of my presentation will be more or less, a summary of

    12 this information I gathered and also the information

    13 which was made available to me here at the Tribunal.

    14 Q. Before you go into that description,

    15 Dr. Kaiser, why is this important? Why you as a

    16 representative of UNESCO, why is this issue concerning

    17 the sacral and cultural monuments and the safeguarding

    18 of those monuments an important issue?

    19 A. It's important for reasons that are sort of

    20 second nature to people, but often sometimes harder to

    21 spell out. People are attached to their environment,

    22 first of all. Secondly, they are attached to specific

    23 objects in their own environment. If you take a

    24 building like Vijecnica, the national university

    25 library in Sarajevo, people are not attached to it

  13. 1 because they know the name of the architect or they

    2 admire it aesthetically. They are attached to it

    3 because they had rendezvoused with their girlfriends in

    4 front of. Maybe they spent many good hours reading

    5 books in it. It's a landmark. It's something that is

    6 part of their lives. Maybe as time goes on, they start

    7 to know a little bit more about it and what it

    8 represents, what it signifies, in terms of the history

    9 of the town or the history of their district. So in an

    10 unconscious way, people are very attached to their

    11 environment and the buildings in their environment.

    12 I'm talking about built cultural heritage, I'm not

    13 talking about manuscripts, et cetera, et cetera.

    14 Other buildings are closer perhaps to the

    15 cultural sole, the cultural psyche. You asked this

    16 question because, in the society which we leave, we are

    17 an extremely urbanised society and very often we will

    18 admire Notre Dame because we know what century Notre

    19 Dame was built in, we know something about its history,

    20 its aesthetics have been explained to us.

    21 We live in secularised societies. We don't

    22 always, immediately responsible, to the simple messages

    23 that is in a lot of the sacral heritage. But there are

    24 societies and there are populations in any society

    25 which are extremely attached to certain types of

  14. 1 buildings. They are a symbol of their past. A church

    2 contains often a cemetery. A cemetery contains the

    3 graves of our ancestors. A church also were most

    4 important parts of your life have gone through. You

    5 may have been married in the church. You may be buried

    6 in the church. The church points upwards. Religious

    7 buildings, sacral buildings are very, very important

    8 for the cycle of life. When you have the society

    9 groups in the society for whom those things are really

    10 important, then if you touch the church, if you touch

    11 the mosque, then you are touching something very, very

    12 important to those people. As we are talking here

    13 basically about sacral buildings, I think that's

    14 basically my answer. This is an intangible thing, but

    15 an extremely important thing.

    16 Q. If those sacral buildings, let us stay with

    17 the sacral buildings, are destroyed or damaged, what

    18 effect might that have on the population, the

    19 particular ethnic population, when they see and observe

    20 such a destruction?

    21 A. Well, I think there's a sense of desolation,

    22 a sense of being especially wounded. I think the

    23 destruction of a mosque is different than the

    24 destruction of a Bosnian Muslim's house. The mosque or

    25 the church or whatever, it represents an order to the

  15. 1 world. What happens to you, everybody knows that

    2 you're mortal. Your life is a series of accidents.

    3 But the mosque, the church, it represents an order.

    4 When you destroy that, you are sort of tempering,

    5 threatening the order of existence. I think that one

    6 reacts in that sense. It has often been said to me,

    7 during the war, and not just about churches, but about

    8 other major cultural buildings, that we get used to

    9 being killed. We know that human life is no more

    10 tangible or tougher than the life of a butterfly, but

    11 when we see these other buildings being destroyed, then

    12 the world starts to crumble around us. And I think

    13 it's more so, in the case of sacral buildings.

    14 Q. Let's turn our attention to the actual

    15 destruction of the Islamic cultural and sacral

    16 buildings. If you can begin your discussion, Doctor,

    17 with a brief overview of what you're talking about

    18 vis-à-vis these buildings, I think that would be

    19 helpful.

    20 A. To go back a little bit to the question you

    21 asked before, you asked it generally, but there's also

    22 a specific application in terms of the area that is

    23 being under concern. These municipalities are

    24 overwhelming rural.

    25 Q. You're talking about Kiseljak and --

  16. 1 A. Kiseljak, Busovaca and Vitez. Kiseljak,

    2 which is the biggest town but it's a small sort of

    3 country town for us. Busovaca, Vitez, or Novi Travnik;

    4 these are very small places and they are surrounded by

    5 a sort of curia of villages. One thing that has to be

    6 kept in mind, in discussing the rural population, and

    7 we're talking specifically about the rural Bosniaks, is

    8 that this is something that very much impressed me in

    9 1994 when I went there.

    10 When I went to Mostar in November 1992, there

    11 were these fabulous town mosques, stone mosques, but a

    12 lot of them were being used as galleries or museums.

    13 They were not being used for the cult. One of them,

    14 the Carados Begova (phoen) mosque was the frescos

    15 the very interesting fresco and it was being

    16 restored. So there was a big scaffolding inside, but

    17 this a process that was going to take years and years

    18 and years to carry out.

    19 When you went to the countryside, you found

    20 the plethora of mosques all over the place. And I was

    21 trying to identify cultural heritage, so I would have

    22 pictures from the 1920s or something of a mosque, and I

    23 would be sort of junketing around the countryside

    24 looking for this mosque, and I couldn't find this

    25 mosque. I couldn't find this mosque because it had

  17. 1 been totally transformed by the imam, by the community

    2 over time. Everybody questioned their tastes, their

    3 tastes in colours, their tastes in objects, et cetera,

    4 et cetera, but there was no doubt about it that these

    5 mosques were alive and that they were important for the

    6 rural community.

    7 I had many examples of seeing people go to

    8 the mosque and a lot of people going to the mosque.

    9 There were a lot of new mosques in the countryside as

    10 well. A lot of these mosques were built or built

    11 partially with funds from the "gastarbeiter", the

    12 emigrant workers who went to Germany, who went

    13 elsewhere.

    14 There was a kind of vitality in the

    15 countryside, and this was proof of a kind of devotion,

    16 a devoutness, on the country population. This is the

    17 general rule all over the world. If we wanted to look

    18 at Western Herzegovina, we wouldn't understand it

    19 either if we didn't understand the Franciscans and the

    20 role of the Catholic church in the lives of the

    21 people. It's the same thing in rural Bosnia, in as

    22 much as the Bosnian Muslims themselves are concerned.

    23 To talk about the types of buildings which

    24 are under consideration here, well, it's quite simple.

    25 We have mosques. A mosque has a minaret to distinguish

  18. 1 it from a mesjid. It's often called Friday mosque. To

    2 give you an example of how important a mosque is in the

    3 local life, when I was in one village called Rotilj, I

    4 spoke to the head man of the village. This little

    5 village is sort of at the end of a valley, and the road

    6 out of the valley goes through Kiseljak. So there was

    7 a Bosnian Muslim population living in this village.

    8 They were going to the mekteb, using it as a mosque.

    9 He said to me, "I hope that after the war,

    10 the mosque in Kiseljak will be available to us so we

    11 can go there for Dzuma on Friday." So on Friday, and

    12 you see this all over the territory, it's market day.

    13 It's also Dzuma. So people will go from a whole series

    14 of little villages around the town, they will go to the

    15 mosque which has the minaret. They will go do their

    16 devotions there; they will meet their friends there;

    17 they will exchange a lot of news there. So this is

    18 another way of pointing out how important the mosque is

    19 for the community's life on, sort of, a wider level. A

    20 mosque is one type of building.

    21 In this area, there were very few minarets

    22 traditionally. There were little minarets that were

    23 built in the roof of the mosque. They only went up a

    24 few metres high. They rested on the beams in the

    25 ceiling. Later on, in the post-war period, a lot of

  19. 1 minarets began to appear.

    2 Q. When you're talking about post-war, you're

    3 talking about World War II?

    4 A. Yes, World War II, yes. The other type of

    5 cult building, of course, is the mesjid, which is

    6 basically a mosque without a minaret. It's a type of

    7 small one-roomed orbit, several rooms sometimes because

    8 it's combined with other functions. It's a small

    9 building that you find in the countryside.

    10 The third type of building is the mekteb.

    11 The mekteb is a school for primary-school-aged

    12 children. This is for the study of the Koran. It's

    13 also where the children learn Arabic. Mekteb often

    14 serves as a mesjid, in fact, in the country area.

    15 A function that you find in modern religious

    16 buildings is the gasulhane which is for washing the

    17 dead. Now, traditionally, mosques and mesjids, they

    18 had that specific function. More and more recently,

    19 you find a building which will have all functions put

    20 into it, mekteb, mesjid or mosque, gasulhane. And you

    21 find a lot of older buildings have adapted to have a

    22 mekteb room for the teaching of the children and also

    23 for the gasulhane.

    24 One remark about the Islamic sacral and

    25 educational buildings from a historical point of view

  20. 1 in this area, I think, should be made. The buildings

    2 here are not as striking as the great urban heritage or

    3 even some of the rural heritage. The mosques in the

    4 Vitez area have nothing in common, except for one, with

    5 the great mosque of Travnik which was just a few

    6 kilometres down the road. The mosques in the Kiseljak

    7 area haven't anything in common, of course, with the

    8 Sarajevo mosques. None the less, there are mosques of

    9 important.

    10 In Stari Vitez, there's the Ahmed Aga mosque

    11 built at the end of the 16th century. We will have a

    12 chance, I think, to see a picture of this later on. We

    13 have the Vares mosque from the 16th century in

    14 Busovaca. In Kazagici, which is north of Kiseljak,

    15 there is the old mosque which dates, I think, from the

    16 middle of the 16th century. There's an old mosque in

    17 Han Ploca. I'm not when it was built. It was rebuilt

    18 in 1960. There is a mosque in Bukve, north of Vitez,

    19 built at the end of the 19th century, and the mosque in

    20 Bukavica, which has an undetermined date. All of these

    21 are stone buildings, but they are not representative of

    22 all the types of buildings, sacral or educational

    23 Islamic buildings you find in the area.

    24 After World War II, a lot of brick buildings,

    25 and brick buildings often of quality, which were

  21. 1 built. You will find mosques in Gromljak and Hercezi.

    2 There are a lot of mektebs. The mektebs are not very

    3 distinguishable, also it should be said, from private

    4 houses, which may have something to do with their

    5 survival. There are also here and there, not so many

    6 of them in this area, there are turbe. Turbes are

    7 tombs, and they are tombs, usually, of important

    8 historical figures, and they look like little tiny

    9 houses. So there are a few of these in the area as

    10 well.

    11 From the 1970s on, a lot of sacral buildings

    12 went up, and they are very poor quality. They are

    13 hollow block, cement minarets. There's a proliferation

    14 of minarets that date, actually, from the 1950s where

    15 brick minarets were added to a lot of buildings, and

    16 then, of course, a lot of mosques now which are built

    17 with minarets. I think it's something ironic in the

    18 sense that the minaret is a sign of Muslims living

    19 there, but before the war, say, in the last 30 years of

    20 the war, which is not considered to be a golden age of

    21 the Muslim people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there are more

    22 signs of this on the horizon than there were before.

    23 Just before the war, there were lots of mosques and

    24 mektebs that were being built, and you will see a few

    25 of these in the photographs as well.

  22. 1 Now, I think I should maybe say something

    2 about how one goes about finding buildings in the

    3 countryside, because this is important. If you don't

    4 have a reasonable sample of something, you can't draw

    5 conclusions from it from what you've seen from your

    6 sample. The major source for information that was

    7 given to ICTY was lists of Islamic sacral buildings in

    8 these municipalities. These lists are a little

    9 confusing because they don't differentiate between

    10 buildings. They just give a long list of functions.

    11 For example, in one place they will indicate

    12 there's a mesjib, a mekteb and a gasulhane, but you

    13 don't know if there is one building or it there is two

    14 buildings or even, eventually, three buildings. That

    15 makes it a little bit problematic when you are trying

    16 to look for them. Sometimes buildings on these lists

    17 are indicated as mesjids when, in fact, they are

    18 mektebs. This sort of exaggerates the importance of

    19 the building, but at the same time, it is an indication

    20 of the function of the building changed during the war

    21 where a mesjid, in fact, because the people -- or a

    22 mekteb, because people didn't have access to a mosque,

    23 the mekteb was used as a mosque for prayers.

    24 In these lists, there's sometimes a doubt

    25 also whether or not a building actually existed, and

  23. 1 there are several cases where I'm not at all certain

    2 that there was a building there like that before the

    3 war. In a couple of cases, buildings were, in fact,

    4 forgotten. In this case where they were forgotten,

    5 they were not badly damaged buildings. Maybe that's

    6 why they were forgotten. Maybe they were forgotten

    7 because the dzemat which is sort of like a parish for

    8 the Islamic community, its boundaries don't necessarily

    9 correspond to the boundaries of the municipality.

    10 THE INTERPRETER: Will you please ask the

    11 witness to slow down?

    12 MR. KEHOE:

    13 Q. Did you get that message, Doctor? If you can

    14 pause for a little bit. I believe we were going to

    15 move to the maps and we were going to give some

    16 indication of the areas that you studied and what you

    17 found. Those maps are with the usher.

    18 MR. KEHOE: Mr. Dubuisson, if we can give out

    19 those four sets of maps at first, and we start with

    20 those.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: This is 451.

    22 MR. KEHOE: If we can also give the witness

    23 452 as well, the next map. I'm sorry, Mr. Dubuisson,

    24 it might be easier to give the other two out as well so

    25 the witness can go through them in series. I

  24. 1 apologise.

    2 Mr. President and Your Honours --

    3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

    4 Mr. Kehoe.

    5 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, Your Honours, for

    6 reference purposes, the four maps, 451 through 454, are

    7 just cut-up versions of Exhibit 29. It's a little

    8 difficult to see for Your Honours and counsel when it's

    9 at the easel. So it's just easier, I thought, and more

    10 expeditious if Dr. Kaiser just explained it in a

    11 smaller format using the ELMO.

    12 Q. Doctor, if we can use those four exhibits, I

    13 believe we have them set up. The one on the easel at

    14 this juncture is Exhibit 451. Can you explain your

    15 work, obviously, exactly what you were attempting to

    16 accomplish? You might want to explain the colour

    17 scheme first.

    18 A. Yes, on the map that have you in front of

    19 you, you see only two colours, but on all the maps you

    20 will see four. Blue represents a building that is

    21 destroyed. It's destroyed because the load bearing

    22 construction system is so badly damaged that all you

    23 can do with this building is just to bulldoze it.

    24 The other colour that you will see, which you

    25 don't see on this first map, is orange. Orange means

  25. 1 the building is very severely damaged in its

    2 construction system by explosives, or it means that a

    3 building has been totally burned out, no roof. All the

    4 internal fixtures, everything is gone. It is severely

    5 damaged. It can be repaired, but it often looks as if

    6 it's destroyed.

    7 Green means moderate damage, some damage to

    8 the roof structure, maybe an artillery impact in the

    9 wall, some burning, but the basic structural system is

    10 not affected.

    11 Yellow means light or no damage. The yellow

    12 mark indicates that a building could be used after, you

    13 know, a certain minimum amount of work. The other

    14 three colours imply that the building is not usable.

    15 The functions are, in fact, destroyed. Obviously,

    16 there are some cases that do not fit conveniently into

    17 any one of these four categories, and I'll point them

    18 out.

    19 I will explain what is on this first map.

    20 This first map contains buildings on the lists of the

    21 Islamic community in Armija-controlled areas. All

    22 together, there are 26 Islamic sacral and educational

    23 buildings on these first two maps. This first map is

    24 the Vitez and Busovaca municipality. I don't know if

    25 you can see everything.

  26. 1 MR. KEHOE: If you could provide him with the

    2 pointer.

    3 A. I have the pointer here, but I think I have

    4 to move the map around. Okay, that's very good, yes.

    5 Q. Would it be helpful to turn the ELMO towards

    6 you, Doctor?

    7 A. The first comment that can be made about this

    8 map, Vitez and Busovaca municipalities, is -- by the

    9 way, why are these buildings here? They were indicated

    10 on the lists of the Islamic community as being severely

    11 damaged or completely destroyed. In other words, I had

    12 to go and look at them in order to find out what had

    13 happened in the area. You can see from the first map

    14 that nearly all of them are indicated as lightly

    15 damaged or no damage. That was their condition.

    16 There are two exceptions. One of the

    17 exceptions is the building in Vitez. In Stari Vitez,

    18 this is the Ahmed Aga mosque. The other one is the

    19 mosque in Bukve. In both of these cases, I consider

    20 that the damage was probably moderate, but for one of

    21 them, Bukva mosque, it could have been lighter. One of

    22 the problems is that the buildings have often been

    23 repaired since the war. So it is very difficult.

    24 Nobody has photographs. People come and tell you what

    25 happened to it, and very often they exaggerate.

  27. 1 Maybe we will pass to -- there's a picture of

    2 this mosque in Stari Vitez, but maybe we will pass to

    3 the other map first.

    4 Q. Whatever is easiest for you. The one on the

    5 ELMO right now is 451, and we can move to the next map

    6 which is 451. This has two areas of notation, Doctor,

    7 and we're going to ask the usher to move that onto the

    8 camera at some juncture because there are two different

    9 locales. Again, 452 is an area in around the Kiseljak

    10 area, and you have the two contrasting corners marked.

    11 A. At the top corner what you have is four

    12 buildings, and that represents sort of the front-line

    13 area. The Armija was in control of that area. Those

    14 buildings are all light or lightly damaged or not at

    15 all damaged. Then you have buildings down in the

    16 right-hand corner. The two green buildings, the two

    17 green indications, are mosques, Bukovica and Sokolic.

    18 In both of these cases, there is artillery damage to

    19 the mosques, but the direction of the impacts is from

    20 the east or south-east. It is highly unlikely that this

    21 damage was, in fact, done by HVO.

    22 The conclusions here are that the mosques

    23 which were, in fact, on the front-line in the Armija

    24 positions which could -- not all of these could easily

    25 be attained. Visibility on them was not always -- some

  28. 1 of them were not so visible. But the conclusion here

    2 is that, in fact, there is very little damage. It's

    3 not the type of artillery damage which one is used to

    4 seeing on the mosques on the frontlines between the

    5 Armija and the BSA, a totally different situation.

    6 Q. Would you want to move to the next map at

    7 this juncture or would you prefer to move to the

    8 pictures?

    9 A. I was thinking, perhaps, showing the mosque

    10 in Stari Vitez.

    11 Q. That's fine.

    12 MR. KEHOE: Mr. Dubuisson, if we can move to

    13 the series of photographs commencing with the first two

    14 photographs. Not those photographs, Mr. Usher, the

    15 ones that are in the binder. Yes, thank you.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: This is 455.

    17 MR. KEHOE:

    18 Q. We're looking at 455/1.

    19 A. This is going to be, I think, the most

    20 idyllic picture of all of the selection here. This is

    21 a picture I took in June 1994 of the Ahmed Aga mosque

    22 in Stari Vitez. This is arguably the finest building

    23 in the whole area. The reason is that this stonework

    24 here is extremely, extremely fine, a very carefully

    25 crafted building. There is almost no other building

  29. 1 that you can actually see such stonework in the whole

    2 area. The minaret was added later. There is a

    3 graveyard around it, and you can see from this, it

    4 looks fairly untouched.

    5 The damage on this mosque, on this mosque

    6 here, is, in fact, what would permit you to classify it

    7 as light. You will see there's two piercing impacts in

    8 the minaret, but they don't damage the stability of the

    9 minaret. On the surface of the mosque, you can see a

    10 sort of diagonal line of small arms fire. But if you

    11 look at the roof, you see something has been done to

    12 the roof. We have another picture which explains why

    13 this would be considered to be moderately damaged.

    14 This picture, I believe --

    15 MR. KEHOE: This photograph, Mr. President

    16 and Your Honours, was taken by then Lieutenant Michael

    17 Duly of the British battalion during the Cheshire's

    18 tour in April of 1993.

    19 A. This is interesting because you see the

    20 addition, the front addition gasulhana and mekteb on

    21 the right-hand side, but you see something in the roof

    22 which is extremely interesting. If you look at the

    23 rows of tiles on the roof, you see that they are all

    24 sort of -- they are out of whack, I would say, but they

    25 are not properly aligned. There's an awful lot of

  30. 1 tiles on the south-eastern side which have fallen off.

    2 Now, what is this? I think this is the

    3 result of the truck bomb in Stari Vitez. These

    4 home-made, crude weapons often had very considerable

    5 destructive power. The truck bomb in Mostar set off,

    6 in fact, a small earthquake. In the gymnasium in

    7 Mostar, which I went over with an engineer, it was

    8 pointed out to me that it looked like the building had

    9 gone through an earthquake.

    10 What happened with this building in Stari

    11 Vitez was that when the bomb went off, the roof rose

    12 and then fell back, which explains this movement of the

    13 tiles. Not only do you have to replace the tiles, but

    14 you also have to look at the roof structure itself,

    15 because probably the wooden structure was also

    16 damaged. So this explains why this would be considered

    17 to be a moderately damaged building.

    18 That's all for this one.

    19 Q. I believe we're moving back to the map

    20 arrangement, and if we could move to the next map,

    21 which is 353, Dr. Kaiser, with the assistance of the

    22 usher. These next two maps, can you just start off

    23 with what that represents before you begin your

    24 explanation?

    25 A. This map represents the municipalities of

  31. 1 Vitez and Busovaca, and here you can see there are

    2 three -- this is HVO-controlled territory. You can see

    3 here that there are different colours. There's only

    4 one green or moderately damaged, Donji Vecerska.

    5 However, on this particular map, there are three blues,

    6 which means three destroyed buildings, and there are

    7 four buildings which are severely damaged.

    8 This is the first part of the other map. You

    9 can take all the buildings together that were seen or

    10 for which photographic evidence was seen in the three

    11 municipalities, you find that these two maps, they

    12 contain 26 Islamic sacral and educational buildings

    13 under HVO control. Three of them are in the

    14 municipality of Busovaca. There are five in Vitez

    15 municipality, and there are 18 in Kiseljak

    16 municipality.

    17 Q. If we could just turn to that next map, we

    18 have 453 on the ELMO. Just for the record, I know you

    19 discussed the next map, which is 454, that represents

    20 the Kiseljak area under HVO control and the various

    21 destruction that took place in the Kiseljak area; is

    22 that right, sir?

    23 A. That's correct, that's correct. This map has

    24 another colour which is the colour yellow. You will

    25 see here that there is only one blue marking, Hercezi.

  32. 1 There is, however, a larger number of orange. There

    2 are three moderately damaged buildings, and then there

    3 are a whole collection of yellows, which are lightly

    4 damaged or not all damaged. As you can see from this,

    5 most of those are south and south-east of Kiseljak.

    6 Q. Continue, Doctor.

    7 A. Well, I think that it's worthwhile sort of

    8 recapitulating, first of all, what is on the maps.

    9 There's 26 buildings here. Of these 26, over half,

    10 that is 14, are severely damaged or destroyed. That's

    11 54 per cent. If you add the moderately damaged

    12 buildings, you get 18, and that makes 69 per cent of

    13 the buildings seen or for which there is photographic

    14 evidence.

    15 In the Vitez and Busovaca municipalities, all

    16 damaged sacral buildings are in the moderate to

    17 destroyed category. In Kiseljak, 10, or 55 per cent in

    18 the moderate to destroyed categories with, again, as I

    19 said, the least damage category being south of the

    20 Kizeljak area. There are pictures now.

    21 Q. Just to recapitulate again, between these

    22 three municipalities, among these three municipalities,

    23 the ones that are severely damaged and destroyed or

    24 moderately damaged or worse is 69 per cent?

    25 A. That's right.

  33. 1 MR. KEHOE: If we can go to the individual

    2 photographs, Mr. Usher, and the photographs we are

    3 going to start with will be the photographs that are

    4 part of Exhibit 47/1, which is the photographs to

    5 Dr. Kaiser's right that have been received in

    6 evidence.

    7 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. Just to

    8 recapitulate, the yellow is lightly damaged?

    9 A. Yes, it is, or not damaged.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: Or not damaged. The green?

    11 A. The green is moderately damaged.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: Moderately. And the blue?

    13 A. The blue is destroyed. Orange is severely

    14 damaged.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

    16 MR. KEHOE: If you can flip those over,

    17 Mr. Usher, we are going to start with 47/1, which is

    18 the photograph of the Ahmici mosque, the lower mosque.

    19 You have to take it out, yes.

    20 A. First of all, I should say that there are

    21 four buildings destroyed amongst this whole group of

    22 26. They are destroyed, all of them, by explosives.

    23 One of them, there's a bit of doubt if it's severely

    24 damaged or destroyed, but we will get to that one.

    25 This is the Ahmici mosque, recently built, as I say,

  34. 1 out of this cement block structure. This building is

    2 destroyed. The minaret looks as if -- it's possible it

    3 was mined in two places, one of them being just below

    4 the second sharafe and perhaps at the base of the

    5 minaret. This is --

    6 Q. Let me stop you there. This sharafe, can you

    7 just explain that?

    8 A. The sharafe is the gallery. In the modern

    9 mosques, the minarets sometimes have two galleries

    10 where the muezzin goes up, and traditionally he would

    11 call the faithful from the gallery or the sharafe.

    12 This is an expert job. The minaret has been brought

    13 down on top of the roof. So the artifices don't simply

    14 have a lot of explosives. They know exactly where to

    15 put them.

    16 Q. If we could go to the next photograph, which

    17 is 47/30. No, that's not the photograph, sir. The

    18 photograph is one of the upper mosque, photograph

    19 47/30. That's it. Thank you.

    20 A. Well, this is the mesjid in Ahmici. There's

    21 a better one than this one, in fact, a better

    22 photograph.

    23 Q. I believe it's 47/31, which is the one right

    24 below it. That's it.

    25 MR. KEHOE: Mr. Usher, is the one that you're

  35. 1 putting on 47/31?

    2 Q. If we can move to 47/31, I believe that's the

    3 photograph you were discussing, Doctor?

    4 A. Yes, this is simply more graphic. There have

    5 been several charges placed in this building. You can

    6 look at these corner posts here, the reinforcing

    7 structure here. Everything has been blown out. It's

    8 well-placed, but it's a bit obvious that this building

    9 is really finished. There's nothing you can do except

    10 bulldoze this one.

    11 Q. Doctor, just by way of clarification, the

    12 mosque that you noted in 47/1 in Ahmici, that is a

    13 traditional mosque with a minaret?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. This is an example, is it not, of a mesjid, a

    16 mosque without a minaret?

    17 A. That is correct, yes.

    18 Q. Again, this was destroyed through a charge of

    19 some fashion?

    20 A. Several charges. Maybe they're tank mines.

    21 Tank mines are commonly used to knock out houses and

    22 other buildings.

    23 MR. KEHOE: If we could move to the next

    24 photograph, Mr. Usher. It is in the series here, and I

    25 believe that will then be photograph 455/3.

  36. 1 Q. I believe, Doctor, that is the next

    2 photograph in your series. Continue, sir.

    3 A. This is the mesjid at Skradno. On the

    4 left-hand side, you can see the gasulhana here with a

    5 slab to wash the dead. There are two stories here, and

    6 then there's -- there were two stories here, and then

    7 there was a roof on top of it. The explosives have

    8 been used here. They have brought down the upper

    9 story. They have knocked out the structure in this

    10 part of the building, and they have brought the ceiling

    11 down on it. I think the next picture is also very

    12 interesting.

    13 Q. 455/4, again, another photograph of the

    14 Skradno mesjid?

    15 A. You can see the ceiling. If you look to the

    16 right, you can see the type of damage done to the walls

    17 which are leaning in. You can see other types of

    18 cracks which are extremely telltale about what the

    19 situation of the building is. This building, which is

    20 also like the other preceding two, same sort of

    21 structures, same type of materials, this building is

    22 destroyed.

    23 Q. The next mosque, I believe, is the Hercezi

    24 mosque, is it not?

    25 A. Yes, it is.

  37. 1 Q. By way of reference, if we can just look at

    2 Exhibit 68/1 and 2, and just have you take a look at

    3 those and identify those as the same mosque that you

    4 will then discuss in 455/5.

    5 Doctor, that is Exhibit 68/1. That is the

    6 Hercezi mosque, is it not, sir?

    7 A. On the left, there is the Hercezi mosque, and

    8 in the middle is the Hercezi mekteb.

    9 Q. Can you point with your pointer to those two

    10 facilities distinguishing between the mosque and the

    11 mekteb?

    12 A. This is the mosque here, and this is the

    13 mekteb right here.

    14 Q. Okay, sir. At this point, if we could now

    15 move to the photograph in your series 455/5, which I

    16 believe is yet another angle of the Hercezi mosque.

    17 MR. KEHOE: If you could put that on the

    18 ELMO, Mr. Usher?

    19 Q. That is, in fact, another angle of the

    20 Hercezi mosque, is it not, sir?

    21 A. Yes, it is. The lens in this camera is a

    22 little bit distorting. That's the only problem with

    23 this picture. What has happened here is that the

    24 minaret has been mined, and this has done a lot of

    25 damage to the front of the mosque. In the preceding

  38. 1 picture on the opposite wall, through the windows,

    2 there is other damage which has been done from the

    3 explosion.

    4 I think that this building is destroyed, that

    5 you cannot save it. You can't see them so well. There

    6 are other cracks which are indicative here of the

    7 damage that has been done. Some people might argue

    8 that you could, in fact, save this building, but it's

    9 in very, very bad condition. It should be kept in mind

    10 that this is also the similar type of building

    11 materials, and these hollow block buildings, cement

    12 structures, are very easy, in fact, to knock out.

    13 I should perhaps say that this dubious --

    14 this case which is discussible, it's in the Kiseljak

    15 area. The preceding three are in Vitez and Busovaca.

    16 Q. This, again, is another one that had some

    17 type of charge placed to it?

    18 A. Yes, in the minaret.

    19 Q. Now, at this juncture, we are moving from the

    20 various conditions of mosques to those that were

    21 severely damaged, are we not?

    22 A. Yes, we are.

    23 Q. Could you continue with that explanation,

    24 sir, beginning with the first photograph, which is

    25 455/6?

  39. 1 A. Yes, now we are moving towards buildings that

    2 are severely damaged. This means that they can be

    3 rebuilt, but it also means that they are totally out of

    4 function and there is a certain amount of expense to do

    5 so.

    6 This first building is the recently built

    7 mosque in Grbavica in Vitez. This is a picture I took

    8 in June 1994. You can see that this building has no

    9 roof here. That's where the roof should be, of

    10 course. There was a roof there, but that roof has

    11 probably been burned or dismantled. More importantly,

    12 right in the middle you see where the minaret was

    13 surrounded by rubble, which comes from the charge that

    14 was placed in the minaret. You can see the type of

    15 damage which has been done by the explosion here, to

    16 the post here, here, and even here as well. This is

    17 the first example of a severely damaged mosque.

    18 Q. The roof of this structure was burned, was it

    19 not?

    20 A. From this picture, you cannot -- it looks

    21 like there's some traces of black here, which means

    22 that the fire would be inside. The roof is gone. I

    23 mean, I'm not sure if it was burned or not. I didn't

    24 climb up onto it to see, but it's gone.

    25 Q. The next building that we're talking about is

  40. 1 the Vares mosque in 455/7. Before we do that, if we

    2 could just look at the outside of that structure that

    3 is depicted in photograph 60/1, if we could. The Vares

    4 mosque is the mosque that is in downtown Busovaca, is

    5 it not, Doctor?

    6 A. Yes, it is.

    7 Q. Is that the Vares mosque from the exterior,

    8 sir?

    9 A. Yes, it is. This also gives you a better

    10 understanding of why I was very confused when I was

    11 going around in 1994 because this is a recent

    12 structure, a gasulhana and mekteb which has been added

    13 to the front of the historic mosque. This picture

    14 shows burning damage in the structure.

    15 Q. Let's move to your photograph 455/7.

    16 A. This is a photograph I took in June 1994 of

    17 the interior of the mosque. You can see where it has

    18 been burned. Also, of cultural interest, this mosque

    19 didn't have a minaret. It had a minaret on the side.

    20 It had a minaret in the roof, and the minaret would

    21 have rested on beams which you see that have been

    22 burned there. This is, in fact, a stone mosque. This

    23 is a 16th century mosque. This is a building of great

    24 value, even though it has been changed. You can see

    25 the rendering which is peeling off. Almost no where

  41. 1 can you see the stones.

    2 As bad as this looks, and this mosque is

    3 severely damaged, this mosque can be rebuilt using the

    4 original structure.

    5 Q. If we could now move to the next structure

    6 which is the Lancari mesjid, which is depicted in

    7 455/8?

    8 A. I'm a little sorry about the quality of this

    9 picture, because the interior, you can't see it so

    10 well. This is a case, also, of a building which -- I

    11 think it's in very, very tricky condition. Now, I'll

    12 explain the charge - there seems to have been one

    13 charge - was placed inside on the ceiling where it made

    14 a hole. You can't see it here in this reproduction,

    15 but there is -- here, there are a series of structures

    16 like this, these cross-beams, concrete beams, and the

    17 whole interior wall of block is blown out. This wall

    18 is blown out. Then this wall has actually been moved,

    19 you see?

    20 Q. Over on the left-hand side?

    21 A. Yes, on the left-hand side. This has

    22 actually been moved. This is in an extremely dangerous

    23 condition. This building, if you leave it this way, it

    24 means the whole distribution of weight on the building

    25 corner has changed. So it is all leaning. If it isn't

  42. 1 given attention, it is going to be in trouble.

    2 You can also argue that this is moderately

    3 damaged. I mean, if you take pictures of this building

    4 from the other sides, you don't see this damage, but

    5 this is serious damage done by explosives.

    6 Q. Let's move to the next photograph which is

    7 the Gacica mekteb which is 455/9 in that series. If we

    8 could also give Dr. Kaiser the next photograph which is

    9 also part of the series, 455/10, for ease of moving the

    10 photographs on and off the ELMO.

    11 A. Like the preceding building, the Lancari

    12 building, it has the mesjid, mekteb and gasulhana. You

    13 could see that it was unfinished. This in Gacica is a

    14 mekteb and gasulhana. It was, in fact, being used

    15 before the war, apparently, but, in fact, it is rather

    16 in an unfinished condition. This is also of the

    17 interior. I'm afraid that what you're looking at in

    18 the corner is the remains of the internal rendering,

    19 and you can see at the top -- you can see where it is

    20 burned. I mean, yes, this building has been completely

    21 burned out. There is no wood left here either, I'm

    22 afraid. It's severely damaged, but if you put the roof

    23 back on and put the rendering on, you can actually put

    24 it back into function.

    25 I should say that the number of severely

  43. 1 damaged buildings is ten, and we have just seen four of

    2 them which are from the Vitez and the Busovaca

    3 municipality.

    4 Q. Now, sir, we are now moving to the Kiseljak

    5 area to discuss the mosque first in Gromljak; is that

    6 correct, sir?

    7 A. That's correct, yes.

    8 Q. If we first just cross-reference the

    9 photographs that are in evidence and first look at

    10 Exhibit 67 in evidence, 1 and 2. Let's just take a

    11 quick glance at these photographs in evidence, Doctor,

    12 beginning with Exhibit 67/1. Is that an exterior shot

    13 of the Gromljak --

    14 A. Yes, it is.

    15 Q. I guess it's the Gromljak mekteb --

    16 A. Mosque.

    17 Q. Mosque, I'm sorry. The next photograph,

    18 67/2, is that a photograph of the interior of the

    19 Gromljak mosque?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Now, let's look at the next photograph in

    22 your series, 455/11. If we could pan that back just a

    23 bit, thank you. Doctor, can you explain the damage to

    24 this facility?

    25 A. This is the Gromljak mosque. This is a brick

  44. 1 mosque, and actually this is a rather nice building,

    2 built, I think, after World War II. An explosive

    3 charge has been placed in the minaret and has done

    4 considerable damage. Besides destroying the minaret,

    5 the brick has fallen all over the place and has helped

    6 to break up the roof. There is considerable damage

    7 which has been done to the entrance part of the

    8 mosque. This is bad damage - it is severely damaged -

    9 but brick structures are often far more resilient and

    10 can be put back together far more easily than they

    11 look. This building is probably recoupable.

    12 One of the problems, though, is that if

    13 people do come back to this area and they look at it,

    14 the problem is that they will probably knock it down,

    15 not try to reconstruct it, and will build a new one

    16 with a concrete minaret and the hollow block walls.

    17 Q. Doctor, if we could move to the next mosque,

    18 which is the Visnjica mosque, and if we could first

    19 reference photographs in evidence 73/1 and 73/2. 73/1,

    20 which is on the ELMO, that is, in fact, an angle shot

    21 of the Visnjica mosque, is it not, sir?

    22 A. That's correct, that's correct.

    23 Q. The next photograph, 73/2, that is a shot of

    24 the interior, is it not, sir?

    25 A. Yes, that's the interior. It is looking

  45. 1 directly towards the mihrab or the prayer niche right

    2 here. It is an interesting photograph because it also

    3 gives us a certain idea of the toughness of the

    4 building as well.

    5 Q. If we could move to your series of

    6 photographs 455/12 and 13, we have two angle shots of

    7 the Visnjica mosque. If you could use them in your

    8 explanation of the damage to this building.

    9 A. The Visnjica mosque.

    10 Q. Excuse me.

    11 A. This is the similar type of damage that's

    12 done to Gromljak. The charge has been placed in the

    13 minaret here. It's blown in the wall. It has probably

    14 also helped bring down part of the roof. The building

    15 is severely damaged, but probably recoupable.

    16 Q. 455/13?

    17 A. More or less the same view with a slightly

    18 different angle.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, perhaps this would

    20 the time to take the break.

    21 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President. That would

    22 be fine, thank you.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: All right. The hearing is

    24 adjourned.

    25 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

  46. 1 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is now resumed.

    3 Have the accused brought in, please? The accused,

    4 please? We seem to have lost the Defence attorney and

    5 I hope we haven't lost the accused also.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, you can proceed.

    8 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President, Your

    9 Honours.

    10 Q. Doctor, we were staying in the Kiseljak

    11 municipality and discussing severely damaged mosques,

    12 mesjids, mektebs and turbe and we were talking about

    13 Visnjica, and now we want to move to the Kiseljak

    14 mosque, and for that purpose, Mr. President, Your

    15 Honours, we will look at Exhibits 63/1, 63/2 and 63/3.

    16 Dr. Kaiser?

    17 A. This is the mosque in Kiseljak. It shows the

    18 mosque from the other side of the road. The minaret

    19 has been dynamited. This is a brick mosque, by the

    20 way. The dome looks as if it's been stripped of some

    21 of the lead covering. This is, I think, rather an

    22 expert job. The artifices could have put the mosque,

    23 minaret down on top of the building. And it seems like

    24 a few bricks right here, but most of it is right beside

    25 the mosque.

  47. 1 Q. If we can move to the interior shots and just

    2 go to 63/2, please? Thank you.

    3 A. I think what's interesting about this is it

    4 shows some burning damage in the entrance part of the

    5 mosque here.

    6 Q. Can you point to that, please?

    7 A. Well, all of this here. You can see the

    8 black.

    9 Q. You're pointing to the black areas on the

    10 ceiling as well as on the sides?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. The last photograph on the Kiseljak mosque is

    13 63/3?

    14 A. This also shows some burning damage, I think,

    15 here. There's also rubble as well. This is not a very

    16 good photograph, but the mihrab here --

    17 Q. The mihrab is the place that's pointing

    18 towards Mecca; is that right?

    19 A. That's right. This looks as if it's been

    20 vandalised. It's hard to tell from the photograph.

    21 But it is interesting that in some cases, it seems that

    22 the fire was lit right in the mihrab or right in front

    23 of the mihrab, and in this case, it looks like some

    24 damage done to the structure to the mihrab.

    25 Q. And some burnt damage, as well, on the walls?

  48. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. If we can move to the next mosque and is the

    3 Han Ploca mosque, and if we can, just for reference

    4 purposes, put Exhibit 398 on the ELMO before we move to

    5 the next exhibit. That is the Han Ploca mosque, is it

    6 not?

    7 A. Yes, it is.

    8 Q. In your series of photographs, let's look at

    9 455/14 which is just a different angle of that Han

    10 Ploca mosque. That is obviously a different time of

    11 year photograph, Doctor, but nonetheless, is that not

    12 the Han Ploca mosque?

    13 A. Yes, that is the Han Ploca mosque. You can

    14 see the old structure, this sort of rubble stone

    15 structure behind here.

    16 Q. You're pointing to the top of the building

    17 now?

    18 A. Here, right here. This is the front of the

    19 old mosque right here. That's the old mosque structure

    20 there and then this is the newer, the brick structure,

    21 gasulhane and mekteb, I believe in here. This damage

    22 looks like burning damage, except in the front, there

    23 may have been an explosion.

    24 Q. The next photograph is 455/15, which is the

    25 Gomionica mekteb.

  49. 1 A. Yes, this photo dates from this year. It was

    2 during the tour that I took of the area. Gomionica

    3 mekteb has been completely burnt out. You can tell

    4 there's still a burnt beam at the top here.

    5 Q. You are pointing to the top of the

    6 photograph, the top of the building where you can see

    7 that burnt beam; is that right?

    8 A. That's right.

    9 Q. This is the Gomionica mekteb; is that

    10 correct, sir?

    11 A. This is the mekteb.

    12 Q. The next photograph, 455/16 in the series

    13 there, thank you. Doctor, can you explain that?

    14 A. This is an interesting structure. This is a

    15 turbe. This is another -- inside of this, on the top

    16 of the floor is a catafalque and underneath, in the

    17 ground, should be buried the body of a notable. I have

    18 information that this, in fact, is the turbe of Sejh

    19 Ismail Harisani who was the commander of the Sultans

    20 army in the 15th century. This is not information that

    21 comes from -- it doesn't come from a cultural heritage

    22 institute, so I take it with a grain of salt, but it

    23 should be pointed out that these turbe, in the

    24 countryside, usually turn out to be important people

    25 from the past. The form of this building, this is not

  50. 1 an original, old building. This was made in the'70s

    2 or '80s, something like that. It looks from this

    3 photograph as if it were burned, but there could be

    4 burning damage at the top here, but it's not entirely

    5 conclusive.

    6 Q. You noted that you had heard from sources

    7 that this was the tomb of a commander of the Sultan's

    8 army from the 15th century?

    9 A. It's a written source which is -- it's from

    10 an official source, not a cultural source. I think

    11 it's a ministry -- the ministry of the interior. It is

    12 interesting that this -- a turbe, a historic turbe

    13 figures on lists of cultural heritage from the cultural

    14 heritage institutes that they do not identify who is in

    15 it. So, this a little problematic.

    16 Q. Did the people in the area believe that that

    17 was a turbe in which a significant Islamic leader was

    18 buried?

    19 A. That's different. I don't know what the

    20 people in the area believed, but these objects, they

    21 attach -- they have that kind of importance, and they

    22 regard it that way. Whether or not X is X or X is Y

    23 who is buried there, the local people think it's

    24 somebody. Yes, I understand your question.

    25 Q. Could you recapitulate on these buildings in

  51. 1 the Kiseljak municipality that you just discussed,

    2 before we move on?

    3 A. Okay. There were six buildings that were

    4 severely damaged in the Kiseljak area, compared to four

    5 in Busovaca and Vitez. These severely damaged

    6 buildings in four cases it's been explosives, in four

    7 of the cases it's been fire, in two cases, maybe more,

    8 it's a combination of firing and also explosives.

    9 Q. Now we're going to move into an area, Doctor,

    10 of Islamic, sacral buildings that received less damage;

    11 is that correct?

    12 A. That's correct.

    13 Q. If we start with the first photograph,

    14 455/17, and if we could place that on the ELMO and if

    15 you could identify that, Doctor, and begin to discuss

    16 that.

    17 A. I recall that there are four buildings in

    18 these three municipalities, in this situation. This

    19 building is the Donji Vecerska mekteb. It's in the

    20 Vitez municipality. This building has been pillaged.

    21 The roof has been stripped. All the black of the roof

    22 structure, there is a little bit -- well, it's a bit

    23 misleading, at least from what I can see on my screen.

    24 There was a burning attempt made on the roof, very

    25 circumscribed, but basically this is a stripping,

  52. 1 pillaging operation.

    2 Q. The next photograph, which is 455 -- excuse

    3 me -- 455/18, if we could put that on the ELMO.

    4 A. This is the unfinished mosque at Duhri.

    5 There appears to have been an explosion here.

    6 Q. You're pointing to the centre of the

    7 photograph?

    8 A. The centre of the photograph. There's not

    9 much rubble from this explosion. I've seen written

    10 sources, official sources, that claim that the minaret

    11 was dynamited. It's highly possible the minaret was

    12 not finished, but the damage is from explosives, and

    13 this is moderate damage.

    14 Q. There was, in fact, another building that you

    15 mentioned in a prior photograph which had moderate

    16 damage, and that was the Hercezi mosque; is that right?

    17 A. That's correct, that's correct.

    18 Q. Just for reference purposes, if we could just

    19 take a quick look at that --

    20 A. Excuse me, mekteb.

    21 Q. I'm sorry. If we could take a quick look at

    22 68/1, I believe that we could go back and reference

    23 that particular mosque, that particular mekteb, excuse

    24 me. It's this photograph, Mr. Usher. This one.

    25 I know this is some degree of repetition,

  53. 1 here, Doctor, but, again, the mosque is on the left and

    2 the mekteb is the centre building; is that right?

    3 A. That's correct.

    4 Q. Just point to that for the record, the centre

    5 building in white. Can you tell us about that damage?

    6 A. I can only Judge from the photograph because

    7 I haven't seen the building -- I say moderately damaged

    8 because the roof is clearly gone completely. You look

    9 in the upper story windows, you don't see any signs of

    10 daylight. It looks as if the ceiling is a concrete

    11 ceiling. The inside may have burned, may not have

    12 burned. The roof may have burned -- the roof

    13 construction may have been stripped, but this is a

    14 moderately damaged building.

    15 Q. If we could move to the next photograph which

    16 is 66/1 and 2, it's the Jehovac mesjid, the Svinjarevo

    17 mesjid. Continue, Doctor.

    18 A. This is the Jehovac mesjid which suffered

    19 pillaging, burning, some stripping of the roof as well.

    20 Q. Could we go to that next photograph? Is that

    21 the inside of that Jehovac mesjid?

    22 A. This is the inside. This is probably --

    23 well, it's hard to say from this photograph, it's not

    24 very good, but photographs I took of it after this

    25 showed that there had been a burning attempt made on

  54. 1 the mosque, but it didn't do substantial damage, I

    2 don't think, to it. You can see that this internal

    3 roof structure is still intact.

    4 Q. Doctor, were there any other buildings in the

    5 Kiseljak municipality that suffered some light damage?

    6 A. Well, in fact, there are eight buildings in

    7 this category, suffering the light damage. One case of

    8 light damage is simply a broken window. On all but one

    9 of these buildings were mektebs, and there's one

    10 picture of a mekteb that has light damage.

    11 Q. Can we go to that photograph? That would be

    12 455/19.

    13 A. All right. This is the mekteb and gasulhane

    14 in Gornji Palez. You can on the roof, damage from

    15 small arms. But what is down here looks to me like

    16 stripping. One thing that has to be kept in mind is

    17 that sometimes buildings -- well, considering the

    18 amount of damage done to roof tiles during the war,

    19 people would go and they would take tiles off the

    20 roof. This is interesting because this seemed only

    21 have to remove roof tiles on the part of the roof that

    22 is over -- that overhangs the building, is the kind of

    23 consideration given to the building. The building also

    24 seems to have been pillaged inside. You couldn't

    25 approach it because there was a problem with mines in

  55. 1 this area, but this is the typical kind of light

    2 damage. It doesn't take too much to get that building

    3 repaired.

    4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Usher, I think we are through

    5 with all our photographs at this point. As we move

    6 ahead, Doctor, can we move to the subject of certain

    7 information you received concerning this destruction,

    8 and if you could carry on with that portion of your

    9 testimony.

    10 A. Okay. To be very honest, I received very

    11 little information about the exact dates of destruction

    12 of buildings during my touring around about Grbavica

    13 mosque 1994. I was told by ECMM that it was burned in

    14 April 1993. I had a discussion with a Croatian refugee

    15 child, at the site of Grbavica, who told me that the

    16 mosque had been mined two weeks before in the month of

    17 May, around the 20th of May, 1994.

    18 The Vares mosque, the ECMM told me that it

    19 was burned possibly in September 1993 and that the

    20 minaret was mined in March 1994. In Jelinek mesjid

    21 which was in Armija territory, there was an attack on

    22 the village, and a Bosniak villager from the village

    23 explained to me that this took place on the 17th of

    24 April, 1993. Skradno mosque, Bosniak returnees told me

    25 that it was mined during an HVO attack in October

  56. 1 1993. Gomionica turbe, Bosniak returnee with whom I

    2 was speaking in June explained that it was burned in

    3 April 1998. I have been shown video evidence that

    4 shows that the catafalque was damaged before March or

    5 May 1996 when the film was taken. That is all the

    6 information I have about dates.

    7 Q. Thank you, Doctor. Let's turn to the subject

    8 of some general remarks you may want to tell the Trial

    9 Chamber about the destruction of Islamic and sacral and

    10 educational buildings in the HVO controlled areas.

    11 Could you do that, sir?

    12 A. Well, I think everything is sort of relative,

    13 and when you have had a lot of experience in the area,

    14 you tend to compare things that have happened in one

    15 area with things that you have seen in other areas.

    16 One first remark is that, as you remember from the

    17 first two maps, very, very little damage was done from

    18 HVO positions against mosques that were in

    19 Armija-controlled territory. There was extremely light

    20 damage. I don't know why. I don't know if it was a

    21 question of ordinance, I don't know if it was a

    22 question of will. But certainly compared to what the

    23 Bosnian Serbian artillery did to mosques, it's very,

    24 very negligible.

    25 My second comment is that there is no

  57. 1 bulldozing of mosques or mesjids or mektebs in this

    2 area. Now, bulldozing is especially an urban

    3 phenomena. It seems to reflect more of a logical

    4 approach, more of a reasoned out approach to what one

    5 is doing. There are a lot of bulldozed mosques in

    6 Republic Srpska, not just in towns, but also in

    7 villages. There's one bulldozed mosque in Mostar west,

    8 the Balinovac mosque. There are no bulldozed mosques

    9 in Vitez, Busovaca or Kiseljak municipalities, and it's

    10 interesting, the Kiseljak mosque, that could have been

    11 a candidate for bulldozing, if somebody wanted to do

    12 it. As I pointed out, even the mining of the mosque is

    13 a bit odd. They knocked down the minaret.

    14 I've been in some places where a building was

    15 damaged and later on authorities used the damage to it

    16 as an excuse, they said, this building is dangerous,

    17 and they would then destroy the building. In the case

    18 of the mosque in Kiseljak, I suppose if you stand in

    19 the aperture where the bricks are, where the minaret

    20 was blown out, that's dangerous. But it doesn't

    21 present that degree of danger. You couldn't justify

    22 destroying it because it was a dangerous building. It

    23 could have been blown in such a way as to make the

    24 invocation of the danger the reason to destroy it, but

    25 it wasn't.

  58. 1 So those are two beginning remarks. If you

    2 look at the three different municipalities in the

    3 HVO-controlled areas, you see that there is a

    4 difference. Of course, there are fewer Islamic and

    5 sacral and educational buildings in Vitez and Busovaca,

    6 but they are significantly more damaged than the sacral

    7 and educational buildings in the Kiseljak

    8 municipality. In Kiseljak, especially what seems to

    9 have survived are the mektebs. As I pointed out, the

    10 mektebs, they are somewhat more anonymous buildings.

    11 They very, very often look like houses. It's hard to

    12 find them because they don't stand out. Local people

    13 would have known where they were. If they were local

    14 people destroying, they would know exactly where to go,

    15 but in Kiseljak municipality, there was less damage,

    16 including even the major structures.

    17 Q. So in your analysis, there's more damage in

    18 Vitez and Busovaca than in Kiseljak?

    19 A. There's more serious damage.

    20 Q. Serious damage?

    21 A. Yes, more serious damage, yes. However, in

    22 both areas, it is to be said that both mosques and

    23 mesjids are damaged, badly damaged and should be

    24 recalled that there is not one minaret in HVO

    25 controlled territory. There's the minaret in Stari

  59. 1 Vitez but there are no other minarets.

    2 Q. Before you move on to the next point, you

    3 said there are no minarets standing in HVO-controlled

    4 territory, but the minaret is standing in Stari Vitez?

    5 A. It was not HVO-controlled territory.

    6 Q. Exactly. Had that particular minaret been

    7 fired upon?

    8 A. It had been fired upon, but not with great

    9 determination.

    10 Q. Continue, sir.

    11 A. To recapitulate, one could say in the

    12 HVO-controlled territory, 54 per cent of the buildings

    13 were severely damaged or destroyed and 69 per cent

    14 showed moderate damage up to the level of total

    15 destruction.

    16 Q. Doctor, based on your analysis and your work

    17 in the area, what significance do you attach to this

    18 destruction and damage to Islamic sacral buildings?

    19 A. Well, the first obvious thing is that you are

    20 depriving local Muslims of a place of worship. I think

    21 that's the fairly obvious thing. Where there are

    22 minarets, there are Muslims. Where there are no

    23 minarets, it seems to say that there are no Muslims. I

    24 mean, this is remodelling the landscape to make it

    25 correspond to what the ethnic or national components of

  60. 1 the landscape, in fact, are. Remove the minaret is a

    2 way of saying, "There are no Muslims here."

    3 I think we go back to the question of what

    4 the sacral building represents, especially for the

    5 rural population. I think this is a particularly

    6 strong, enduring injury inflicted upon the Bosniaks by

    7 this destruction. Given how important it is for them,

    8 this is close to sacrilege. It is a very strong way of

    9 saying to the Bosniak Muslims that, "We don't want to

    10 live with you anymore."

    11 There are a few other remarks that I think

    12 are in order as well. If you are going after an old

    13 building -- now, the old mosque in Stari Vitez, of

    14 course, is standing. There's a tradition about that

    15 mosque that the stone comes from a Roman bridge, that

    16 it was not cut for the mosque, it was in a Roman

    17 bridge. If you destroy this mosque, you are doing

    18 several different things. One of them is that you are

    19 sort of removing the memory -- it's been there since

    20 the end of the 16th century, you are removing the

    21 Muslims, not from just the present landscape or the

    22 future landscape, you are removing them from the past.

    23 In this case, you are even going back further. You are

    24 going to damage the perception of the past that

    25 everybody has had. If it goes far enough, you are

  61. 1 taking the Muslims completely out of a chronology, not

    2 just out of space. You're saying that the Muslims were

    3 never there.

    4 Now, there's another question which is a very

    5 important question. I've thought about it a lot. It's

    6 common to regard the destruction of somebody else's

    7 cultural heritage as an attack on the other person. It

    8 is true. It is obvious. But it is more complicated

    9 than that. It is not just physically cleaning the

    10 society, removing the others, it also means changing

    11 the identity of one's own people. I think that we all

    12 have to take this much more into consideration now.

    13 What you're doing to the Croat from this area, is

    14 you're taking the Bosniak Muslim out of him. You are

    15 creating a new Croat. You are creating a Croat who has

    16 not the memory and the experience of having lived with

    17 somebody else.

    18 This is one of these -- I hope the last gasp

    19 of the 20th century of creating new men all the time.

    20 Q. Doctor, when you were going through these

    21 areas, did you see a difference between the destruction

    22 of sacral monuments, and by sacral monuments, I say of

    23 all religious confessions, between areas controlled by

    24 the HVO and areas controlled by the Armija?

    25 A. In 1994, we were trying to get a complete

  62. 1 picture of the damage to cultural and sacral buildings,

    2 because we were trying to be fair. We wanted to get

    3 the full range of destruction. As my trip in 1994, of

    4 the area, was not exhaustive, which means that I didn't

    5 see all of the mosques and all the mesjids. At the

    6 same time, we tried to see Serbian Orthodox churches

    7 and Catholic churches, and I did see some. I would say

    8 that the damage that was done in HVO-controlled

    9 territory to Bosniak sacral heritage was far

    10 greater intensity than the damage I saw carried out on

    11 Catholic churches outside the HVO-controlled

    12 territory.

    13 I could also point out that in Busovaca there

    14 was a late 18th century Orthodox church. I visited

    15 that church. Some local lady had a key. We went into

    16 it. It was perfectly intact in Busovaca, under HVO

    17 control. Outside the HVO-controlled territory, what

    18 did I see? I saw in Kacuni, I saw a recent church.

    19 This church was roughed up. It was pillaged, probably,

    20 I can't remember exactly, glass was broken in it. It

    21 was not burned. No burning attempt was made. I saw

    22 Guca Gora monastery. I was one of the first, I think,

    23 internationals allowed close to Guca Gora. I was not

    24 allowed into the monastery, that is either the church

    25 or the monastery buildings. I was told, either by ECMM

  63. 1 or Armija or the Travnik authorities that the Armija

    2 had thrown out the mujahedeen after the mujahedeen had

    3 occupied it for two weeks. The building from the

    4 exterior, everything seemed okay. I have a cultural

    5 heritage assistant who, a few weeks ago, because we put

    6 Guca Gora on the list of national monuments in

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, sent my cultural heritage assistant

    8 to look at the church. Inside of it, there was

    9 graffiti from Armija elements.

    10 I visited the churches in Travnik. At the

    11 time of my mission, I believe that the Catholic church

    12 was actually functioning. It was not damaged by the

    13 local population. The Serbian Orthodox church was a

    14 little damaged to the exterior, perhaps, in fact, from

    15 bombardment from the BSA. It was closed up. There

    16 seemed to be no attempt to disturb the church. I

    17 visited a church in Dolac, which is just outside the

    18 western part of the Vitez pocket, a Catholic church,

    19 fine late 19th century building, which had some sort of

    20 military damage, I think, to the roof. Inside, it had

    21 been roughed up. It had been vandalised. There was

    22 some broken windows, but there was no attempt to burn.

    23 So what I would say is from the limited

    24 sample of buildings that I saw in the area, close to

    25 the frontlines, to the HVO positions, could even be

  64. 1 seen by the HVO, in fact, there was much less damage

    2 done than to the Bosniak -- the Islamic sacral

    3 buildings inside of the Kiseljak and Vitez pockets.

    4 Q. In the area that you visited in Kiseljak,

    5 Vitez, and Busovaca, you noted various buildings that

    6 had received dynamite charges, some very professionally

    7 done, according to your testimony, especially in Vitez;

    8 is that right?

    9 A. Yes, there are a few cases here. I mean the

    10 Ahmici mosque and the Kiseljak mosques, were very

    11 professional mosques, yes.

    12 Q. Did you see anything like that with the

    13 Orthodox and Catholic churches that you observed?

    14 A. Well, outside of the HVO-controlled areas, I

    15 had not seen any mined buildings in those areas or even

    16 burned buildings. There are two burned Serbian

    17 Orthodox churches in the Bosna valley, south of the

    18 Lasva valley, those exist. Some of the Zepce pocket, I

    19 know of a village which has a Catholic church and that

    20 was burned. The ECMM said it was burned by the

    21 Armija. But this is far away from this area and is

    22 burning. What I say around the area was not very

    23 significant damage, compared to what we saw inside of

    24 the pockets.

    25 Q. Doctor, you mentioned in your testimony,

  65. 1 several moments ago, that a destruction of a mosque and

    2 a minaret is sending a message to the Muslims that we

    3 do not want to live with you anymore; is that right?

    4 A. Yes, I think it can be interpreted that way.

    5 Q. Would that activity, the destruction of these

    6 sacral monuments and sacral buildings be consistent

    7 with an attempt to remove the Muslim population from

    8 the area?

    9 A. It would be consistent.

    10 Q. Let's turn our attention to responsibility,

    11 Doctor, and talk a little bit, if you will, based on

    12 your experience and your work in the area, of the

    13 responsibility of protecting these types of -- the

    14 cultural heritage and the sacral buildings in the

    15 former Yugoslavia, and specifically, Central Bosnia?

    16 A. Well, generally, this is kind of an

    17 obsessional question with us, from the international

    18 community, that's been involved with trying to do

    19 something with the cultural heritage during the war and

    20 afterwards. We often feel, first of all, we have an

    21 international responsibility that we did not exercise

    22 as much as we should have done.

    23 But let's get to sort of more operational

    24 and, perhaps, meaningful responsibilities in all

    25 countries. Civil authorities have a responsibility for

  66. 1 protecting public property and cultural heritage which

    2 is listed by their services. The same thing, of

    3 course, is true in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The civil

    4 authorities had the responsibility in peace time, and

    5 at other times, to protect buildings that were listed.

    6 In Central Bosnia, in these HVO-controlled areas, the

    7 Vares mosque was listed as a third category monument,

    8 that is to say, a regional monument, sort of local

    9 importance. This was indicated in the materials

    10 provided by the institute to preserve cultural and

    11 historical and natural heritage of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    12 I also believe that probably the Ahmedija mosque was

    13 also a listed monument, but I haven't found any

    14 material to prove it, so far, in lists.

    15 At any rate, the civil authorities of

    16 Busovaca were obliged, they were -- they had a legal

    17 responsibility to protect the Vares mosque, and the

    18 Vares mosque was burned and the minaret was dynamited.

    19 There's another level of responsibility which

    20 is, of course, the responsibility of military

    21 authorities. Yugoslavia was a state's party to The

    22 Hague convention of 1954, on the protection of cultural

    23 heritage. It had a reputation, at least in UNESCO, of

    24 being a very good pupil of the convention, which is to

    25 say that it did inventories of cultural heritage of

  67. 1 buildings which should be spared in case of war on its

    2 own territory. The Yugoslav armed forces were,

    3 apparently, taught well about cultural heritage, and

    4 the responsibilities they had to it.

    5 I remember at the beginning of war in

    6 Dubrovnik, The Hague convention flag came out all over

    7 the place. And I have seen over the years, many, many

    8 pictures of The Hague convention flag in Croatia

    9 especially, but also at the beginning of the war in

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Some countries refused to sign the

    11 convention. I believe that France refuses to fly this

    12 flag, and maybe for a good reason. Some people say

    13 this flag, in fact, attracts attention. In other

    14 words, the military had a responsibility to protect

    15 certain buildings, and this would include, at least,

    16 also the Vares mosque as a listed building.

    17 In the end, who exercised their

    18 responsibilities to protect these buildings? We've

    19 seen the pictures of these buildings. The buildings

    20 are badly damaged.

    21 Q. Would your consensus be that in the areas

    22 that you discussed and viewed in Vitez, Busovaca, and

    23 Kiseljak, the HVO failed in that responsibility?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, if I might have

  68. 1 one moment to talk with my colleague, Mr. Harmon.

    2 Mr. President, I have no further questions of the

    3 Doctor at this point. I appreciate it. Thank you,

    4 Doctor.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: All of these exhibits are going

    6 to be tendered as evidence?

    7 MR. KEHOE: Yes, I apologise, Mr. President,

    8 that would be 451 through 455 inclusive.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Mr. Hayman?

    10 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Hayman:

    12 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Kaiser. My name is

    13 Russell Hayman and I represent General Blaskic in these

    14 proceedings. You have a history degree, I take it?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. What was the subject of your Ph.D.

    17 dissertation?

    18 A. The Masters of Request in Age of Descent of

    19 Centralisation of 1589 to 1660, I believe. That was

    20 the title of it.

    21 Q. What geographic area did that deal with?

    22 A. That was France, old regime France.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: The interpreter did not hear

    24 it. I would have liked to know what was the title of

    25 the thesis. I got the date but I didn't get the title

  69. 1 Could we hear it again, please?

    2 A. The Masters of Request for Centralisation

    3 from 1589 to 1660.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Did the interpreter get it?

    5 Very well, thank you very much.

    6 MR. HAYMAN:

    7 Q. Outside of your reports to and for the

    8 council of Europe, have you authored any publications

    9 on the subject matter of your testimony here today?

    10 A. I have not published anything.

    11 Q. Did you say, on direct, that you have

    12 previously testified before this court?

    13 A. Yes, I have.

    14 Q. What case was that?

    15 A. The ruling 61 regarding Radovan Karadzic.

    16 Q. Do you recall the month or date?

    17 A. I think it is July of two years ago, 1996.

    18 Q. Thank you. You described your first mission

    19 to the Neretva valley and said that there were

    20 reprisals in response to conduct by the VRS or Bosnian

    21 Serb army. Who engaged in those reprisals, if you

    22 know?

    23 A. I was guided by two Croats around all of

    24 these sites, and after hesitation on their part, they

    25 said, "Our side did it." To go into any greater

  70. 1 detail, they didn't, and it would be -- I would say the

    2 people were specialists who did it.

    3 Q. The persons who were touring you around, were

    4 they military or civilian?

    5 A. No, they were civilian.

    6 Q. When you were being toured around the Lasva

    7 and Kiseljak valleys, were there any admissions or

    8 confessions of guilt of responsibility by any tour

    9 guides or other persons, concerning destruction to

    10 Muslim cultural sites in those regions?

    11 A. My tour guides were the European community

    12 monitoring mission, that is, to say, mainly military

    13 people who had been in this area for a certain time and

    14 worked in it. The information came from them. There

    15 was no information coming from local people or opinions

    16 about who destroyed what.

    17 Q. You had no such contacts, is that correct, on

    18 that trip?

    19 A. Not with local people. I had contacts with

    20 -- I spoke with an Imam in Kacuni who accused the

    21 HVO. There were vague local -- there was the local

    22 standby person who said, "Oh, this was done by the

    23 HVO," that sort of comment which was made. This was

    24 usually about, you know, small arms fires or

    25 projectiles or some sort like that.

  71. 1 Q. But nothing specific and no details were

    2 passed to you by those types of --

    3 A. No, nothing really detailed, no.

    4 Q. You described the May 1993 destruction of a

    5 mosque in Banja Luka. Do you know who may have been

    6 involved in that act or acts?

    7 A. Well, referring to the destruction of, first

    8 of all, the Ferhadija mosque which is one of the finest

    9 mosques in Bosnia-Herzegovina, was, and the Arnodija

    10 (phoen) mosque in May, which promptly gave rise to a

    11 whole series of other incidents. These were all expert

    12 jobs. I don't know who destroyed them.

    13 Q. Who controlled the territory?

    14 A. The Republic Srpska -- the Srpska territory,

    15 so it was controlled by the Serbian authorities of

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    17 Q. Am I correct that your first visit to the

    18 Lasva or Kiseljak valleys was between the 30th of May

    19 and the 22nd of June, 1994?

    20 A. That's correct.

    21 Q. That was some two months after the signing of

    22 the Washington Agreement and the general crease fire in

    23 that region; correct?

    24 A. That's correct.

    25 Q. You have obviously undertaken a study and

  72. 1 provided the court with the statistical results, as

    2 well as, other testimony concerning your study. You

    3 said that you have received certain information here at

    4 the Tribunal. Can you explain what information, in

    5 your study, that is the basis of your testimony, came

    6 from your own inspection and what information have you

    7 summarised that was given to you here, at the Tribunal

    8 for the first time?

    9 A. I think I indicated that there are 52

    10 buildings in this area, the 26 in the Armija-controlled

    11 area, and then there are 26 in the HVO-controlled

    12 areas. I visited about 24 of the buildings in the

    13 Armija-controlled area, and there are photographs that

    14 I took of most of those buildings. I visited and

    15 stopped -- let's put it this way, stopped at 16 of the

    16 buildings, got out, took photographs in the

    17 HVO-controlled areas, but many of the buildings, in

    18 fact, are on a main road, and they are evident. For

    19 example, Han Ploca mosque is on the main road, and I

    20 didn't take photographs. The photographs were taken

    21 earlier and submitted to the Tribunal.

    22 Q. I take it, with respect to, ten out of the 26

    23 sites in HVO territory, you did not visit them on your

    24 tour, but you have been provided information and

    25 photographs here at the Tribunal which you've used and

  73. 1 incorporated into your testimony; is that correct?

    2 A. I think there's about half a dozen of them

    3 which I did not drive by and relied on photos

    4 completely, in my evaluation.

    5 Q. Photos provided to you after you arrived here

    6 at the Tribunal and prepared your testimony?

    7 A. Before, before.

    8 Q. Photos -- let me correct that then. These

    9 photos that you described were provided to you by the

    10 office of the Tribunal Prosecutor in advance of your

    11 testimony?

    12 A. That's correct.

    13 Q. And you incorporated that information in your

    14 testimony here today?

    15 A. That is correct.

    16 Q. Now, where did you get the list of 52

    17 buildings which formed the universe for your study?

    18 A. The list was given to me by the Tribunal

    19 earlier this year.

    20 Q. By whom?

    21 A. By an individual or --

    22 Q. Well, was it by a representative of the

    23 office of the Tribunal Prosecutor?

    24 A. Yes, yes.

    25 Q. Was that represented to you to be a

  74. 1 comprehensive list of cultural sites in the area?

    2 A. It was a translation, two versions. There is

    3 a translated version. There's a Serbo-Croatian

    4 version. It was represented to be what the Islamic

    5 community believed to be its sacral and educational

    6 property in the area.

    7 Q. Do you know who, in the Islamic community, or

    8 what representative of the Islamic community, gave the

    9 list to the office of the Tribunal Prosecutor?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Did they represent to you whether it had come

    12 from the interior ministry or the Bosnian intelligence

    13 service?

    14 A. It may have been. I really don't know. It

    15 may have been submitted through the interior ministry.

    16 Q. But you did not ask?

    17 A. Well, I would say this: I've seen so many

    18 lists in my profession, dealing with cultural heritage,

    19 I wasn't particularly interested in how it came

    20 through. I was more interested what was on it.

    21 Q. Is it fair to say you were told to conduct a

    22 study or asked to conduct a study based on the universe

    23 of 52 buildings that had been selected by some other

    24 party who, as of right now, is not identified for the

    25 court; is that correct?

  75. 1 A. Let's put it this way: It's not 52

    2 buildings. The way the list is broken down, it is

    3 broken down by function. As I said, one of the

    4 problems using the lists earlier, in an area, you would

    5 have place --

    6 MR. HAYMAN: If you could slow down.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Dr. Kaiser, first I would ask

    8 you to slow down. When you answer, please look to the

    9 Judges because you are answering for the Judges. You

    10 hear the question, you listen to the question, turn to

    11 the counsel to hear the question, but answer facing the

    12 Judges because they are the ones who make the

    13 decisions. I know it's a bit complicated, but if you

    14 would make that little extra effort, we would be

    15 grateful to you. Thank you very much.

    16 A. As I explained, the lists indicated, not

    17 buildings, they indicated functions, so there are not

    18 52 buildings on these lists. There are a number of

    19 functions that go beyond 52. I can't remember how many

    20 there are. So you would have under a location, you

    21 would have a mesjid is here, a mekteb is here and a

    22 gasulhane is here, but you don't know if you're talking

    23 about one building, two buildings or even eventually

    24 three buildings.

    25 Q. Nonetheless, the list had geographic

  76. 1 locations on it, I take it?

    2 A. Yes, that's correct.

    3 Q. And you took those geographic locations as

    4 the universe of your study for the purposes of your

    5 testimony in this case; correct?

    6 A. Yes, I did. There were a couple of different

    7 lists, I should say, as I pointed out earlier, I was

    8 attentive to try to compare all information in order to

    9 see if something had been forgotten. Sometimes things

    10 are forgotten.

    11 Q. You compared different lists. Are these

    12 lists sometimes different, that is, they have different

    13 geographic sites on one list and not on another, or

    14 different cultural sites on one list that aren't on

    15 another?

    16 A. There are differences. In fact, there's a

    17 list for the Kiseljak municipality also supplied, also

    18 emanating from the Islamic community, which fails to

    19 mention that there is a mekteb in Bukve. It fails to

    20 mention that there's another mekteb in Donji

    21 Zezeljevo. There are differences. There are little

    22 differences, for the most part.

    23 Q. One last question about these lists, Doctor.

    24 You said you received them and other materials prior to

    25 your testimony. Were they received by you, prior to

  77. 1 your testimony, but after your on-site inspection in

    2 Central Bosnia, in May and June of 1994?

    3 A. They were before, before my on-site

    4 inspection. I have a lot to do, and I try to limit

    5 it. It takes a fair amount of time to find places in

    6 Central Bosnia, and so these materials were given to me

    7 before, and that helped me to organise my tours.

    8 Q. Before May of 1994?

    9 A. I'm sorry, no. I did a tour at the request

    10 of the Tribunal in April/May 1998.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Please be specific here. You

    12 know that the Tribunal was established in November

    13 1993. Try to be very specific in your responses to the

    14 Defence's questions.

    15 A. I think -- yes, I apologise. When I went to

    16 Central Bosnia in 1994, I had no lists given to me by

    17 anybody, except for the Riyaset. These were old lists

    18 that came out from the war. They were sort of

    19 everything in the kitchen sink is sort of put into

    20 them. The lists I'm talking about and you're asking

    21 questions about are specific lists given to me by the

    22 Tribunal last fall, I believe, and materials I saw last

    23 fall or January here. I used these in order to

    24 organise these trips that I have carried out in Central

    25 Bosnia from April to June 1998.

  78. 1 Q. How many trips were those?

    2 A. It's about five, five day-trips all together.

    3 Q. The photographs, which together constitute

    4 Exhibit 455, do they include photographs taken during

    5 your 1994 visit to the Lasva and Kiseljak valleys or

    6 during your 1998 visits, or are they a mixture of

    7 photographs from those various visits?

    8 A. I think I -- yes, there is a mixture. There

    9 are a few photographs from June 1994 and there are a

    10 few photographs taken in the April, June visits, and

    11 then there are other photographs, which are not my

    12 photographs.

    13 Q. Are some of the photographs also from your

    14 1998 visits to the region?

    15 A. Yes, yes.

    16 Q. Are most of the photographs in Exhibit 455

    17 from your 1998 visits, or are you able to make a

    18 generalisation?

    19 A. I think there are probably more there, from

    20 the materials that the Tribunal supplied. We can go

    21 through every one of them and I can point out which

    22 ones are mine and which are the Tribunal's.

    23 Q. So most of the Exhibit 455 were not taken by

    24 you and, therefore, you don't know when they were

    25 taken; is that correct?

  79. 1 A. I would say about half of them.

    2 Q. Half of them were not taken by you; is that

    3 correct?

    4 A. Yes, that's right, maybe a bit more.

    5 Q. Thank you. You described the communities in

    6 the Kiseljak, Busovaca and Vitez municipalities as

    7 largely rural, small towns and the like. Did you find

    8 in your tours and inspections, that generally in these

    9 regions, residential districts are segregated by ethnic

    10 or religious groups?

    11 A. It is a good question because the only answer

    12 to it is a nuanced one. Bosnian society was not the

    13 mix that the -- there's an idealic version of Bosnian

    14 society which has come out from the war, after the war,

    15 that it was a mix. In fact, if you look carefully at

    16 Bosnia or any particular region, if you look at towns,

    17 if you look at the countryside, you find it is not

    18 quite so simple. There are a lot of villages in the

    19 country which are mono-national or mono-ethnic. There

    20 are a few that are mixed. If you go to a town, and you

    21 take Stari Vitez. Stari Vitez is a Bosniak area inside

    22 of a town which is basically a Croatian town. In fact,

    23 there is a lot more segregation in the country than has

    24 often been said.

    25 Q. Would you agree that in the Lasva and

  80. 1 Kiseljak valleys, generally villages are mono-ethnic,

    2 and where they are not mono-ethnic, within a village,

    3 residential districts are generally segregated by an

    4 ethnic or a religious group?

    5 A. The villages that are on the hills are

    6 basically mono-ethnic. There is a little bit more mix

    7 in the valley, the main valley in Kiseljak. But I

    8 would basically agree with what you've said.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: This might be the moment,

    10 unless you have another question about the ethnic

    11 composition of the villages, this might be a good time

    12 to take our break.

    13 MR. HAYMAN: I've completed that area,

    14 Mr. President. Thank you.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We will resume at

    16 2.30. The hearing is adjourned.

    17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.56 p.m.









  81. 1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: We will now resume the

    3 hearing. Have the accused brought in.

    4 (The accused entered court)

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, we're going to

    6 continue now with your cross-examination. The floor is

    7 yours.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

    9 Q. Once again, good afternoon, Dr. Kaiser. You

    10 stated that mektebs generally resemble, from the

    11 outside, private residences; is that correct?

    12 A. That's correct.

    13 Q. So to recognise such a structure as a mekteb,

    14 you would have to have some local knowledge of the

    15 local sites; is that correct?

    16 A. One has to ask questions to the local

    17 people. Sometimes the mihrab, that is, the

    18 prayer niche, is visible on the exterior wall.

    19 Q. For the record, you have had some notes

    20 opened before you during your earlier testimony that

    21 you have referred to from time to time.

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Please feel free to continue to do so if it

    24 is helpful.

    25 If Exhibit 451 could be placed on the ELMO?

  82. 1 That is one of the maps tendered by the Prosecution in

    2 connection with the testimony of this witness. Very

    3 well, you have it before you, Dr. Kaiser. You said, I

    4 believe, that the locations in yellow were under BiH

    5 army control; is that correct?

    6 A. That is correct.

    7 Q. As of what time?

    8 A. I can answer you in terms of what I actually

    9 saw in 1994. I'd say that Kruscica, that was under

    10 ABiH control, because I was there; Stari Vitez, of

    11 course; Strane out in the east; and Merjani (phoen), I

    12 didn't go to, but it's visible from the road east in

    13 from the Lasva Valley.

    14 Q. I didn't intend to make you go through them

    15 one at a time. My question, rather, was: Did you mark

    16 these in yellow because they were under BiH army control

    17 at the time of your visit in May and June of 1994 or

    18 did someone else mark these for you and tell you that

    19 they were under BiH army control at some point or points

    20 in time?

    21 A. Okay. The way it works is this: Every

    22 single mosque, mekteb, or mesjid that was on the list

    23 and was indicated as severely damaged or destroyed I

    24 wanted to see. I saw these -- in fact, I didn't know

    25 exactly where all of these were located, and I simply

  83. 1 made a list of them to go out and look for them, in

    2 fact. When I went to these areas, I could tell from

    3 the surrounding population that these were -- I

    4 presumed to be -- there was a Bosniak population in

    5 these areas, a big one. In some places I spoke with

    6 local people because I was uncertain as to where they

    7 could be.

    8 For example, Rovna, which is down here, I

    9 came along this road from the east here. I went up and

    10 I spoke -- there was nothing that was obvious there,

    11 not too many habitations in the area, not too many

    12 people, but up at the mosque there were some old men.

    13 I went and asked them some questions, and said, "Where

    14 was this during the war?" And they said to me, "This

    15 was in Armija territory." If you looked to see the

    16 damage, yes, that was possible. It's that kind of way,

    17 when you asked questions, I got the precise answer and

    18 I feel certain about those sites. The other ones I

    19 judged simply from the population.

    20 In some cases, you know, you are also going

    21 over front-line, and you know that you are going over

    22 the front-line, and that's the way you know where it

    23 is. It was not indicated to me that these were in

    24 Armija-controlled territory. I can tell you that. It

    25 was just by going around that I began to presume that

  84. 1 they were, in fact, in Armija-controlled territory

    2 because of the population, because of what people said.

    3 Q. You made that judgement. Was that in May/June

    4 of '94 or in 1998 when you went back that you made the

    5 judgement that the locations in yellow were under BiH

    6 army control?

    7 A. You will remember that I only saw a few of

    8 these locations in 1994, so I made a judgement about

    9 certain of those locations. Kruscica was one of them.

    10 The other ones I mentioned at the beginning. In all

    11 the others, I made that judgement during the April to

    12 June trips around the areas.

    13 Q. April to June 1998?

    14 A. 1998, yes.

    15 Q. If you learned that locations such as

    16 Jelinak, Putis and, perhaps, others had been in HVO

    17 territory during part of the war, what would that tell

    18 the court with respect to those locations?

    19 A. I should say that I know that Jelinak and

    20 Strane were briefly in control. Jelinak I mentioned as

    21 an example of an inhabitant that said the village had

    22 been overrun in April 1994. I don't know how long it

    23 was overrun for. Putis, I didn't know that. I asked

    24 the local inhabitants, and I didn't get that answer.

    25 Strane looked as if it had been overrun because it had

  85. 1 pillaged. Someone had gone in there. It was a Bosniak

    2 village, so I assumed it was the HVO.

    3 In a few cases I learned that it had

    4 happened, but I didn't include those as being in

    5 HVO-controlled territory simply because I didn't -- I

    6 knew that they weren't in HVO-controlled territory very

    7 long, for the most part.

    8 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please make a

    9 break between the question and answer for the

    10 interpreters to catch up?

    11 MR. HAYMAN:

    12 Q. Dr. Kaiser, do you believe the court can or

    13 should infer anything from the fact, for example, that

    14 Jelinak and Strane were held by the HVO for a period of

    15 time, and yet there was little or no damage to cultural

    16 sites there; whereas, other sites that were under Croat

    17 control for longer periods of time and, thus,

    18 accessible to civilians, vandals, et cetera, they fared

    19 less well? Do you think that the court can or should

    20 make an inference based on that data?

    21 A. I think it depends on how long something is

    22 under control. I don't know how long Jelinak was under

    23 HVO control, whether it was one day, two days or three

    24 days.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, ask your questions

  86. 1 directly, please. Don't try to infer everything that

    2 the Judges might infer, because they are grown-up and

    3 know how to make the inferences that they need to

    4 make. Please don't make too many suggestions about any

    5 possible inferences that the Judges could make.

    6 Believe me, they will do what they have to do at the

    7 proper time.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: There must have been a problem

    9 in interpretation, Mr. President, because I wasn't

    10 suggesting the court's job or role. I apologise if it

    11 was interpreted in such a manner that the court

    12 understood me to be doing so.

    13 Q. Dr. Kaiser, can we reasonably infer that if

    14 the HVO held Jelinak for a few days or a week and a

    15 cultural site wasn't destroyed, then whatever HVO

    16 commander was on the ground there wasn't given any

    17 instructions or command, at least not one that he

    18 obeyed, to destroy a cultural site at that location?

    19 A. The Jelinak case is an interesting case, if I

    20 can talk about that, because the head man of the

    21 village, he showed us his mekteb, mesjid, gasulhane,

    22 and he said that it had been overrun, fire had been set

    23 in it, and that it had been mined to go off. I have

    24 heard this thing about places being mined to go off,

    25 and at the last miraculous moment they didn't go off.

  87. 1 Somebody took the mine out, et cetera.

    2 There were the slightest traces of fire. It

    3 was clear that the building had been rehabilitated. I

    4 put down it was lightly damaged. I don't know exactly

    5 how much damage was done to it, but to that building,

    6 there was an attempt made to damage it. But I don't

    7 know whether it was moderate or light, so I put light.

    8 Q. What about the cultural site in Strane? Do

    9 you have any more for the court about that site?

    10 A. I think the village was overrun. There was a

    11 lot of pillaging. Explosives seems to have been put in

    12 houses. This little mesjid, this is a case of one that

    13 is visible from the outside, the mihrab, it was

    14 pillaged. It was pillaged. That was all. I don't

    15 know how long they were there.

    16 Q. If Exhibit 452 could be provided to the

    17 witness? That's the next in this series of maps. If

    18 it could be moved up so that the lower right-hand

    19 corner of the exhibit is visible on the ELMO, please,

    20 lower right-hand corner. Thank you.

    21 I think the exhibit is upside down, if it

    22 could be turned right-side up, please. Thank you very

    23 much.

    24 Dr. Kaiser, you said that the two locations

    25 in green had been hit by artillery from the east or

  88. 1 south-east; is that correct?

    2 A. That's correct.

    3 Q. Who held that territory during the war, if

    4 you know?

    5 A. One thing I should have mentioned to you, I

    6 also had mine maps, and that indicated often where

    7 forces were. Those mine maps I acquired from the Mine

    8 Action Centre in Sarajevo. In this case, if you take

    9 the mine map, you will find a whole line of mines north

    10 of the two towns here. I assume that this was, in

    11 fact, in Armija territory, these two locations.

    12 Q. Do you know who held the territory from which

    13 the direction of fire came causing the injury or damage

    14 to the sites?

    15 A. My inference, since it came from the

    16 north-east and south-east, generally from the easterly

    17 direction, my inference is that the damage would have

    18 been done by the Bosnian Serbian forces.

    19 Q. You discussed the causes of various damage

    20 visible to you. Am I correct that you were not in a

    21 position to differentiate between the effects of

    22 different types of explosives when exploded on or in a

    23 cultural site, or is that something that is within your

    24 field of expertise?

    25 A. I would say that I can differentiate between

  89. 1 artillery damage and explosives, high explosives. But,

    2 honestly, I could not tell you much, if anything, of

    3 technical nature about explosives used in a building.

    4 Q. So whether military explosives, a mine, or

    5 civilian industrial explosives are used, you're not

    6 able to render an opinion on that; is that correct?

    7 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to allow myself

    8 to interrupt you for a moment. We are having a problem

    9 with the French transcript. We have to take a short

    10 break for a moment to correct the technical problem.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Well, we are going to suspend

    12 the hearing for ten minutes.

    13 --- Recess taken at 2.50 p.m.

    14 --- On resuming at 3.05 p.m.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Have the

    16 accused brought in.

    17 (The accused entered court)

    18 JUDGE JORDA: All right, Registrar, maybe you

    19 can tell us what is working and what isn't working.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: We had a small transcript

    21 problem with the French, but everything is operating

    22 perfectly, or it seems to be operating perfectly.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: I really admire your prudence.

    24 We can continue now, Mr. Hayman.

    25 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

  90. 1 Q. Dr. Kaiser, let me repeat my question which

    2 you were not given a chance to answer. Is it correct

    3 that you are not able to render an opinion in specific

    4 cases of -- the destruction of cultural sites whether

    5 military explosives, such as a mine, or whether other

    6 civilian explosive materials may have been used to

    7 cause a particular explosion or detonation?

    8 A. Regarding explosives put into buildings, I am

    9 not an expert and I cannot distinguish between a tank

    10 mine, a big charge of civilian explosives or other

    11 types of explosives.

    12 Q. I didn't understand with respect to the

    13 mosque in Kiseljak whether the minaret fell on the roof

    14 or did not fall on the roof. Do you need to see a

    15 photograph to refresh your recollection or can you

    16 answer the question without a photo?

    17 A. I believe that some of the bricks fell on the

    18 roof, but you see a mass of bricks around the base of

    19 the minaret, outside. I don't think that the minaret

    20 was exploded in such a way as to fall on the roof.

    21 Q. You also said that that detonation was a

    22 "expert job." Do you mean it was expert in keeping

    23 the minaret from falling on the roof or was it done in

    24 an expert manner in some other way?

    25 A. Yes, precisely. I mean, it's an expert who

  91. 1 made certain that it didn't fall on the roof. He put

    2 it somewhere else.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry. Would you clarify

    4 that?

    5 A. An expert could make it fall wherever he

    6 wanted it to fall. I think, I'm inferring that the

    7 artificer who put the explosives, in the minaret, in

    8 the Kiseljak mosque, he wanted the minaret to go in a

    9 certain direction and not another direction.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: Why would you do that?

    11 A. I don't know. He could make more damage or

    12 less damage.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Was it in order to save the

    14 minaret, for instance?

    15 A. He wanted to destroy the minaret, there's no

    16 question about that, the question is about how much

    17 more damage he wanted to do.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: So it was an experiment on

    19 damage?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: The opposite of what you do.

    22 A. I couldn't do that, in other words, I would

    23 probably bring it down, maybe on top of the roof.

    24 MR. HAYMAN:

    25 Q. You described the, I believe the phrase is,

  92. 1 turbe, a tomb memorial of a sort. Where was that?

    2 Could you tell us the geographic location? I didn't

    3 catch that in your testimony.

    4 A. The turbe which I mentioned is located in

    5 Gomionica Mahala.

    6 Q. You said there was some information that it

    7 was the tomb of a commander of the Sultan's army.

    8 A. That is correct.

    9 Q. Can you explain which sultan you're referring

    10 or the sultan of what empire?

    11 A. Ottoman sultan, I mean, we're talking about

    12 Mohamed Fetih the second, I think, in the middle of the

    13 15th century.

    14 Q. In Donji Vecerska, you described a site that

    15 had the roof stripped, the roof tiles taken off. Can

    16 you tell the court, have you found in your studies of

    17 damage to cultural sites in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that

    18 there are different types of vandalism?

    19 A. Yes, there are different types of vandalism.

    20 Q. Can you explain what those different types

    21 are?

    22 A. Well, we have the trashing of the interior of

    23 a building, for example. That is upsetting

    24 everything. It's a spectrum, a spectrum of vandalism.

    25 It can be indiscriminate. It can be, for example, in

  93. 1 the case of a church -- take an example of the churches

    2 from the Dubrovnik commune. There's a very famous

    3 example of vandalism which is carried out by the

    4 Serbian forces in Cilipi which involved cutting the

    5 heads off of statues of Mary and of Joseph and of

    6 another saint. That's a very specific kind of

    7 vandalism. There are other types of vandalism in

    8 churches, where the statue is knocked over, but nobody

    9 has gone to cut the head off.

    10 To go back to the spectrum of damage, there

    11 can be burning inside of a building, an attempt to burn

    12 it, to go to the exterior, we can shoot out or through

    13 stones through windows. We can take off a roof

    14 because, perhaps, one needs the tiles. Usually that's

    15 a good reason, otherwise it's a long job. This is sort

    16 of minor types of vandalism, not completely destructive

    17 of the structure. Then vandalism keeps going. I

    18 consider vandalism also to be burning and also putting

    19 explosive charges in a building.

    20 Q. Is it also possible to categorise vandalism

    21 as, in the first category, the threat or removing of

    22 usable building materials apparently for the purpose of

    23 reuse as compared to vandalism that can be linked to

    24 the political or ethnic symbolic value of the thing

    25 being desecrated or vandalised. Is that a distinction

  94. 1 that you, yourself, have made in the past, Doctor?

    2 A. Yes, I have made that distinction in the

    3 past. People have vandalised buildings in their own

    4 territory, of their own national group, or what they

    5 consider to be their own national group, because they

    6 are looking for tiles, because they are looking for

    7 wood to burn. Yes, I do make such a distinction.

    8 Q. You described the unfinished mosque in Duhri

    9 and whether or not the minaret had, in fact, been

    10 constructed at all, despite reports that you received

    11 that there was a minaret at that location and that it

    12 had been destroyed. Would you agree that the general

    13 quality of hearsay reports in Bosnia-Herzegovina

    14 concerning destruction and vandalism and acts of

    15 violence, are quite poor, that is the quality of those

    16 hearsay reports are quite poor and, in fact, they are

    17 rather unreliable?

    18 A. I believe that is to be the case. I pointed

    19 out also in these lists given by the Islamic community

    20 that the damage was systematically overestimated. This

    21 is true. You always have to go -- if you haven't got

    22 photographs, and then you have some good ones, you have

    23 to go and see something by yourself, because you cannot

    24 go upon the hearsay evidence.

    25 When I was working for the Council of Europe

  95. 1 in 1993, and we were collecting all this material, on

    2 the basis on my own experience in 1992, the end of 1992

    3 in Dubrovnik, these materials, I didn't know what to

    4 believe. It is a very, very difficult exercise. The

    5 same mistake can be repeated ten times. Yes, the

    6 hearsay evidence is not very good.

    7 I also mentioned that we thought that the

    8 good -- I read in a newspaper the Guca Gora monastery

    9 had been destroyed, and that's hearsay evidence and it

    10 wasn't.

    11 Q. When you got to Guca Gora, were you not

    12 allowed inside because it was a BiH army installation,

    13 it was being used by the BiH army?

    14 A. Precisely. I was not allowed inside because

    15 the Armija was in the establishment.

    16 Q. And was using it for their military purposes;

    17 correct?

    18 A. Military purposes. I mean, it was presented

    19 to me -- in fact, it was also a form of protection. I

    20 did see what I thought to be mujahedeen in the area. I

    21 saw that the village, that Croats houses in that

    22 village had been burned. That seemed to me to be very,

    23 very convincing argument to put troops in the monastery

    24 to protect it from somebody else.

    25 Q. Please be assured that I'm not suggesting it

  96. 1 was a good or a bad idea to have BiH army troops

    2 stationed in and around the monastery. Would you agree

    3 that you were not invited inside, not because they were

    4 guarding the monastery but because they were engaged in

    5 military activities inside the monastery?

    6 A. I think that what they knew and sensed is

    7 that I was nosing around to see what had happened, and

    8 the church had, in fact, been defiled in one way

    9 another. I mentioned that the graffiti was used. I

    10 think that's what they were afraid of me seeing. They

    11 were, perhaps, also afraid of me seeing that the

    12 soldiers were living in the monks quarters and had

    13 probably, my assistant didn't go into those quarters,

    14 but perhaps it was full of graffiti, insulting

    15 graffiti, because wherever soldiers go, there is often

    16 insulting graffiti and they didn't want me to see that.

    17 Q. Did you learn, despite the limits put on your

    18 access, at the Guca Gora monastery, that some one-half

    19 of the vast library at that monastery had been

    20 destroyed by the mujahedeen when they took over the

    21 monastery in 1993?

    22 A. That is news to me. I heard about the great

    23 fire at the end of World War II, supposedly carried out

    24 by the Germans. I was told by the Bosniak officials,

    25 in the municipality of Travnik, that much of the

  97. 1 collection had been saved. Our cultural heritage

    2 assistant did not mention seeing traces of a fire,

    3 excuse me, the fire of a library. I'm not sure exactly

    4 what happened to the library and to the other treasures

    5 of Guca Gora. I never saw them.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Doctor, would you please face

    7 us when you answer. Thank you.

    8 MR. HAYMAN:

    9 Q. Could you then tell the court, Doctor, if you

    10 recall, where you got the information in your report to

    11 the Council of Europe dated 16 March 1995 which reads:

    12 "Franciscan monastery at Guca Gora (Travnik): About

    13 50 per cent of the library had been destroyed or lost

    14 during the period the monastery was occupied by

    15 mujahedeens in 1993, but ABiH managed to save part of

    16 it."

    17 A. Which report are you referring to?

    18 Q. 15 May 1995, Council of Europe, seventh

    19 informational report on war damage to the cultural

    20 heritage in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Your

    21 update begins on page 37 and I was reading from the

    22 third paragraph under "Bosnia and Herzegovina" on page

    23 39. Is that information you recall or you don't recall

    24 receiving it?

    25 A. I'm sorry. I recall -- well, I have in front

  98. 1 of me the report from '94. I can't recall this

    2 particular information.

    3 Q. Could the usher show the paragraph, first to

    4 the Prosecutor and then to the witness. This is the

    5 only copy I have. Perhaps it will refresh his memory,

    6 Mr. President.

    7 A. Okay. I think I understand better. The

    8 question here --

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. Perhaps we have

    10 made an error here. The sentence that you quoted,

    11 Mr. Hayman, the extract from the report of the Council

    12 of Europe is important. In the interpreter's mouth, I

    13 heard that they had been occupied by the HVO and then

    14 by the Bosnian army. The transcript mentions the

    15 Bosnian army. Could we repeat that sentence, please?

    16 I hope that doesn't bother you.

    17 MR. HAYMAN: I will repeat it. It was not

    18 the HVO but the mujahedeens, who initially occupied the

    19 premises and then were replaced by the BiH army

    20 according to the report which managed then to save

    21 roughly one-half of the library holdings, the balance

    22 having been apparently destroyed by the mujahedeen.

    23 Q. Let me ask you, Dr. Kaiser, first of all, is

    24 your memory refreshed with respect to that bit of

    25 information?

  99. 1 A. Yes, indeed. I wrote it. I'm just trying to

    2 remember where I got it. I was in contact with ECMM,

    3 and this was information, I think, I probably got later

    4 on, in fact.

    5 Q. After your the visit at which you were denied

    6 access to the monastery?

    7 A. Yes, after the visit, yes.

    8 Q. But this is -- I did accurately read a

    9 portion of your report; is that correct?

    10 A. Yes, you did.

    11 Q. Thank you. If Exhibits 66/2 and 66/3 could

    12 be provided to the witness, they pertain, I believe, to

    13 the Svinjarevo mesjid.

    14 A. Mesjid, yes.

    15 Q. I was a little confused, Doctor, I thought

    16 you said, but correct me if I'm wrong, that these

    17 photos depicted damage to this mosque, but that in a

    18 later photo you saw potential damage from burning, or

    19 evidence of burning, but not in these photos; is that

    20 correct?

    21 A. I have photos that I took in which the

    22 burning -- the smoke is quite clear, is quite clearly

    23 on certain objects. It's clear at the base of the

    24 mihrab here.

    25 Q. What is clear?

  100. 1 A. Right here. I'm not sure that I can say that

    2 that's smoke damage there actually. Then there is

    3 another storey, there is another floor, and there is a

    4 staircase. Underneath the staircase, there are the

    5 traces of fire, of smoke.

    6 Q. That you saw in 1998?

    7 A. 1998. Also, there are other pictures that I

    8 have, in which certain elements of the roof, in fact,

    9 are damaged by fire.

    10 Q. Also photos from 1998?

    11 A. That's right.

    12 Q. And that damage is not apparent in these

    13 photos; is that correct?

    14 A. No, it's not apparent in those photos.

    15 Q. So if these photos -- excuse me. Let's pause

    16 for a moment. If these photos were taken in 1996 and

    17 you found burning damage in 1998, that would tell us,

    18 of course, that that subsequent damage occurred during

    19 that interval; correct?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 MR. HAYMAN: I'm completed with those photos,

    22 Mr. Usher. Thank you.

    23 Q. You told the court of several items of

    24 information you received concerning when specific

    25 cultural sites were damaged. Am I correct that you

  101. 1 have no other information concerning the time or

    2 circumstances of the damage to the various sites you

    3 have reviewed, other than what you have already told

    4 the court?

    5 A. Basically, that's correct. There may be a

    6 few other notations in reports that I have made, but

    7 basically, this is all the information. There's not

    8 very much.

    9 Q. Do you have any basis to give the court an

    10 opinion whether the majority of the damage to the sites

    11 you have discussed occurred after the Washington

    12 Agreement in roughly March 1994 or occurred before the

    13 Washington Agreement in 1994, March of that year?

    14 A. Well, clearly if the only information I have

    15 is here, I cannot put specific dates on the damage

    16 which has been done to these buildings.

    17 Q. Returning your attention to Exhibit 451,

    18 which is the map with a large number of yellow

    19 locations indicated, if that could go back on the ELMO,

    20 please. Is it your believe, Doctor, that these

    21 locations in yellow were certainly, that is, cultural

    22 sites indicated by the locations in yellow on

    23 Exhibit 451, were certainly within the range of HVO

    24 artillery during the war?

    25 A. Can I be a little boring here and go one by

  102. 1 one?

    2 Q. Only the court can grant you leave in that

    3 area, Doctor.

    4 A. Okay. For example, well, obviously, the

    5 Stari Vitez, the mosque there was quite visible. Bukve

    6 is very visible from the main road. Sadovaci, this is

    7 different. This, by the way, was undamaged. I don't

    8 think this building was visible to HVO positions.

    9 Preocica, I think the mosque is visible. Dolovici,

    10 it's visible to the front-line positions of the HVO.

    11 Sivrino Selo, yes. Vrhovine, I doubt very much if the

    12 mesjid is visible. There is, by the way, another

    13 mosque here in Poculica, which I don't know why I

    14 didn't put it on which is visible as undamaged. The

    15 mosque in Vrhovine, I'm not sure if that is visible.

    16 Kruscica, the mosque, I think, was visible. The mesjid

    17 was not visible and is not damaged. Vreniske, I really

    18 don't think it's visible. It was in a valley. Rovna,

    19 visible --

    20 JUDGE RIAD: Was this last one damaged or

    21 not?

    22 A. Vreniske, not damaged.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: So it was not visible to the

    24 HVO.

    25 A. No. Rovna was visible, it had slight

  103. 1 damage. Besici, this is visible and was damaged.

    2 Jelinak was definitely visible.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: Was it damaged?

    4 A. Yes, it was damaged, yes. Putis, I think,

    5 was visible from the hill here. I believe there was

    6 fighting in this hill. Strane, it's in the trees.

    7 It's a very small building. I'm not sure if it was

    8 visible. Merdjani may have been visible at one moment

    9 or another.

    10 MR. HAYMAN:

    11 Q. Thank you. Can we conclude that the sites

    12 you identified as visible, to HVO artillery,

    13 nonetheless, showed no other indications of having been

    14 targeted and damaged by HVO artillery; is that

    15 correct?

    16 A. Well, I think Bukve was targeted. Stari

    17 Vitez was targeted. Kruscica was targeted once. It

    18 had one impact in it. Wait a minute, Preocica, was

    19 targeted once, one mortar shell, I think.

    20 Q. Tell us, Doctor --

    21 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, if the witness can

    22 finish.

    23 MR. HAYMAN: I thought he had finished.

    24 A. Yes, Rovna was targeted, not by artillery or

    25 mortars, though. It was hit by small arms. Besici was

  104. 1 hit by small arms and maybe by projectiles, but not big

    2 projectiles. Jelinak was not hit by projectiles.

    3 Putis was shot by -- small arms damage, that's all.

    4 MR. HAYMAN:

    5 Q. Tell us, Doctor, if any of these visible

    6 sites, if targeted by an artillery attack directed at

    7 the site, by capable artillery operators, the site

    8 could be totally destroyed; correct?

    9 A. There's no doubt about it. I mean, a capable

    10 artillery man, if he decides to go after something, he

    11 can get it, he can hit it badly.

    12 Q. And you saw that result in hundreds of cases

    13 with respect to the Bosnian Serb army; correct?

    14 A. Well, maybe I didn't see the case for

    15 hundreds of front-line -- mosques near the front-line,

    16 but I saw many cases.

    17 Q. What you see here is different; correct?

    18 A. Yes, it is.

    19 Q. Now, you compared damage to Muslim and

    20 Catholic sites. Let me ask you just a few examples.

    21 Was the Catholic church in Vitez damaged by fire? When

    22 I say "fire," I mean projectile fire?

    23 A. Yes, it was, in fact. Not seriously, but it

    24 was damaged, yes.

    25 Q. Was the damage comparable to the pock marks

  105. 1 on the Stari Vitez mosque?

    2 A. I think it's a little less. I think it's one

    3 or two impacts on the church.

    4 Q. Mortar impacts?

    5 A. Okay, I don't have pictures in front of me, I

    6 don't remember, but not heavy artillery. It wasn't a

    7 big artillery piece.

    8 Q. Since you have made general comparisons

    9 between Muslim and Catholic sites, let me ask you, on

    10 the list that the Prosecutor's office passed on to you

    11 for your 1998 review, were there any Catholic sites or

    12 were those exclusively Muslim or Islamic religious

    13 sites?

    14 A. No, they were exclusively Islamic sacral and

    15 educational buildings.

    16 Q. Do you recall any damage to Catholic sites in

    17 the village of Dusina?

    18 A. I have not been in that village.

    19 Q. Vlajkovica?

    20 A. This village is close to a group of schools

    21 that UNESCO is working on, and I have gone through that

    22 area. But about a year ago, I wasn't involved in

    23 sacral buildings at the time. I think the village was

    24 damaged. I can't remember exactly what the state of

    25 the church was, though.

  106. 1 Q. Restovsko in the Kiseljak municipality?

    2 A. I don't think there's very much -- I don't

    3 recall seeing any damage to the church.

    4 Q. The church in Silos near Kacuni?

    5 A. I'm wondering, is that the same church we

    6 were talking about? There is one church in Kacuni. I

    7 mean, there's only one church I can recall on the main

    8 road.

    9 Q. One moment. The description I have is of the

    10 villages on the road from Fojnica to Kiseljak, east of

    11 Fojnica is Natbare, afterwards is mainly Croat Silo,

    12 largely burnt out, along with it recent Catholic

    13 church?

    14 A. That's from my report from June 1994. That's

    15 the road from Fojnica to Kiseljak. It's not Kacuni to

    16 Kiseljak. Yes, I remember going through that area and

    17 seeing a Catholic church that was damaged, yes.

    18 Q. It was burned out?

    19 A. Burned out, I think.

    20 Q. In terms of the psychological impact on a

    21 population, civilian population, as well as individual

    22 soldiers, would you agree that the psychological impact

    23 of destruction to religious sites is a common one among

    24 various religious or ethnic groups?

    25 A. Can you rephrase that? I'm not sure I

  107. 1 understand.

    2 Q. Would you agree that the impact on a

    3 population, be it a Muslim population, a Catholic

    4 population, or some other religious group, it is the

    5 same when one's own group's religious sites are

    6 destroyed, targeted, and are the victims of violence?

    7 A. Yes, thank you for rephrasing your question.

    8 Yes, it is the same, I think.

    9 Q. Do you also believe that that psychological

    10 impact crosses municipal lines, that, for example, acts

    11 of violence in a neighbouring municipality may heighten

    12 fear, paranoia, anxiety in the next door municipality?

    13 A. Of course.

    14 Q. Did you visit Bugojno on any of your tours or

    15 visits to the Central Bosnia region?

    16 A. My tour in 1994, I went through it, but

    17 unfortunately, since then I've been back, and not just

    18 to go through it.

    19 Q. What did you find?

    20 A. Well, Bugojno is a very nasty place, to put

    21 it bluntly, even speaking as a UNESCO representative.

    22 There was a case of a big church out there, an

    23 explosive being set at the foot of it. This is after

    24 Dayton. The church in Humac and this was the most

    25 extraordinary kind of violence to have seen since the

  108. 1 war, was the victim of an explosive charge, which

    2 destroyed the church tower. This was about a year ago,

    3 before the elections. Bugojna is not a very nice

    4 place. It is a very, very badly vandalised Catholic

    5 cemetery which I have written about to the Reis Ul

    6 Uleima, in fact.

    7 Q. In the former Croat population of Bugojno?

    8 A. They have had a very, very tough time there.

    9 There's no doubt about that.

    10 Q. Did you have occasion to visit Fojnica and,

    11 if so, what did you find?

    12 A. Yes, I visited Fojnica only once. I visited

    13 during the June 1994 mission. It seemed to be in

    14 rather bad condition. I didn't -- this was a town in

    15 which the monitors didn't want me to get out of the

    16 vehicle, even though it was in Armija territory. They

    17 pointed out to me that there had been a certain amount

    18 of ethnic cleansing of the Croatian population. We

    19 were visiting the monastery in Fojnica, because the

    20 monastery in Fojnica has a very, very important, very

    21 rich collection, and, of course, I knew about the

    22 incident in the monastery, I guess which was in October

    23 '93, in which two priests had been assassinated.

    24 Q. By the BiH army; correct?

    25 A. I don't know who they were assassinated by,

  109. 1 but I don't assume they were assassinated by other

    2 Croats.

    3 Q. And the former Croat population of Fojnica?

    4 A. When, during the war or after the war?

    5 Q. How did you find the situation when you

    6 visited?

    7 A. It looked like a very unhappy place.

    8 Q. I have a few more questions, Doctor, but not

    9 many. In the area of responsibility, you said that the

    10 JNA taught the dictates of The Hague convention, well.

    11 Do you know what they taught? Have you seen teaching

    12 materials? Were you in the JNA, Doctor, or are your

    13 sources of information something else?

    14 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, I think there is four

    15 questions there as opposed to one. I have to ask

    16 council to break his questions down, it might be easier

    17 for the transcript.

    18 MR. HAYMAN: Very well.

    19 Q. Can you tell us your source of information

    20 for your knowledge of what the former JNA, at a

    21 particular point in time, did or did not teach

    22 concerning The Hague conventions?

    23 A. Well, this is, of course, a general

    24 statement. This is an evaluation from within UNESCO.

    25 UNESCO is involved in the implementation of The Hague

  110. 1 convention. It is responsible for keeping the

    2 archives. They are supposed to know something about

    3 the implementation with the armed forces. You would

    4 call this hearsay evidence but it's from inside UNESCO.

    5 Q. Do you know the ultimate source, other than

    6 the general believe on UNESCO's part?

    7 A. I don't work in that area. I haven't seen

    8 the materials of the reports that were compiled. The

    9 thing is that, Yugoslavia compiled reports and sent

    10 them, regularly, to UNESCO. They do exist.

    11 Q. Before the break-up of the former Yugoslavia;

    12 is that right?

    13 A. That's right.

    14 Q. Were there any reports after the break-up and

    15 after the war broke out in the former Yugoslavia?

    16 A. I don't know. I doubt it.

    17 Q. You would doubt it because the situation

    18 became somewhat chaotic; correct?

    19 A. That's correct, yes.

    20 Q. Does The Hague treaty require the flying of a

    21 particular flag, over sites that are registered as

    22 being of cultural significance?

    23 A. I believe that it recommends it. If you

    24 don't fly it, then you're taking a risk.

    25 Q. I take it, if you fly it and the building is

  111. 1 destroyed, then you haven't violated the treaty; is

    2 that right? You haven't violated your duty to protect

    3 the building; is that true?

    4 A. You have respected the recommendation. You

    5 have respected the spirit of the convention. You have

    6 allowed the enemy to make his choice. Remember, it

    7 depends on the enemy and whether he wants to shoot or

    8 not.

    9 Q. Do you think, in Central Bosnia, during the

    10 war that was fought there, it was a good idea for any

    11 party to put up flags identifying particular sites or

    12 do you think that the failure to fly such flags was a

    13 reasonable exercise of discretion by whatever local

    14 civil authorities made that decision?

    15 A. Well, first of all, I doubt very much that

    16 there any flags in Central Bosnia. The flags were

    17 usually put up, for example, in Croatia. They were put

    18 up by the institutes to preserve cultural heritage.

    19 Croatia had an excellent network of those. Bosnia had

    20 a poor network. Would it have been a good idea to put

    21 them up in the war? It seems one of the lessons that

    22 this war has taught us is that these flags didn't

    23 protect very much.

    24 Q. I take it, you think it's unlikely they had

    25 any flags to begin with; is that right?

  112. 1 A. I think it's unlikely, probably, in this

    2 area.

    3 Q. You spoke of the duty of military personnel

    4 with respect to listed sites. Is it your opinion that

    5 military personnel had a duty to act as civil police

    6 and physically guard registered sites during wartime?

    7 Is that your understanding of The Hague convention?

    8 A. One of the understandings is they don't give

    9 orders to shoot at buildings. That's one thing.

    10 Secondly, if they regard that there is a danger to a

    11 building from military personnel or armed personnel, I

    12 believe that they cannot -- they don't necessarily have

    13 to put soldiers in front of it. Well, they can put

    14 military police in front of it.

    15 Q. They have an obligation to attempt to

    16 maintain discipline within their own troops; correct?

    17 A. Exactly.

    18 Q. Is that the obligation?

    19 A. Yes, that's one of the obligations, yes. If

    20 necessary, to protect the building. I've asked SFOR to

    21 protect buildings, in fact, in the post-Dayton

    22 situation, if necessary, with troops, by patrols. I

    23 think it's also a solution.

    24 Q. Very well. You've spoken, though, of a legal

    25 duty. Can you articulate what that legal duty is for

  113. 1 military personnel under The Hague conventions or is

    2 that outside your field of expertise?

    3 A. Well, you will imagine, sir, that I would

    4 like The Hague convention to be respected.

    5 Unfortunately, I have seen it hasn't been so respected,

    6 and not very much respected during the war. I don't

    7 want to say I'm cynical about The Hague convention, but

    8 I certainly approve of everything that's being done to

    9 reform it. In a certain sense, I'm not so interested

    10 in what it has to say, but I am interested in the

    11 spirit of it. The question is what should the soldiers

    12 do? The commanders should give orders to their

    13 soldiers to respect certain buildings. They should

    14 list the buildings. We're talking about, in combat

    15 situations. Outside combat situations, they should

    16 make -- they should try to ensure that those orders

    17 are, in fact, respected and that soldiers don't do

    18 something, if they feel that there is a situation they

    19 can't control so well, then they should, if necessary,

    20 guard the building.

    21 Q. You're talking now about buildings within the

    22 area of control of a particular military force, as

    23 opposed to buildings outside of that area?

    24 A. Yes, I am, yes.

    25 Q. If a military commander gives orders,

  114. 1 repeated orders, to his forces to respect and protect

    2 civilian structures, is that consistent with the

    3 duties, as you understand them, arising on the part of

    4 military commanders under The Hague convention?

    5 A. It's a good start. At least the soldiers

    6 know what they are up against if they disrespect the

    7 orders.

    8 Q. If a soldier at a lower level disrespects

    9 that order, is the commander responsible for a criminal

    10 offence under The Hague conventions? Is that your

    11 understanding?

    12 A. If a soldier disrespects the order, and his

    13 commander does nothing to be certain to see that he is

    14 punished, then his commander has a responsibility, but

    15 the commander is not necessarily responsible for what

    16 the subordinate soldier does. He is responsible to

    17 make certain that he is punished for it, if he has done

    18 it.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, let me remind you

    20 that the witness has come to testify about a certain

    21 number of things. I'm not sure that his opinions on

    22 military command responsibility are moving a little bit

    23 away from the purpose of the testimony.

    24 MR. HAYMAN: I have two more questions on

    25 this area, Mr. President. He did give an opinion on

  115. 1 the responsibility of commanders and if I may, I would

    2 like to finish the area.

    3 Q. I take it then, Doctor, your understanding is

    4 the obligation on the part of military commanders

    5 created under The Hague convention, is not one of

    6 strict liability?

    7 A. Is not one of strict liability?

    8 Q. Yes. It is not a strict liability obligation

    9 on the part of a military commander?

    10 A. I may be a bit thick. Can you explain what

    11 you mean by that?

    12 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me. Excuse me. This is

    13 precisely the point, I believe, that Your Honour has

    14 just addressed on the issue of strict liability and

    15 what it means within the term of international law and

    16 international humanitarian law.

    17 MR. HAYMAN: He gave a legal opinion,

    18 Mr. President, he gave a legal opinion on the duties of

    19 civil authorities and military authorities. I don't

    20 know what I'm supposed to do --

    21 JUDGE JORDA: I have to say that you are

    22 taking the words out of my mouth, but I'm also going to

    23 turn to the Prosecution. When you ask too much of a

    24 witness, you then expose yourself to have questions

    25 that go beyond the limits. I have said, the witness

  116. 1 comes to express what he knows about a specific area.

    2 Dr. Kaiser, perhaps not theoretically, perhaps not an

    3 expert in military responsibility. All right, let's

    4 leave it at that. You have asked your questions,

    5 Mr. Hayman. Have you got any others that you want to

    6 ask?

    7 MR. HAYMAN: One more and then one last area.

    8 Q. Before asking to opine, were you shown any

    9 orders of my client?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Thank you. You said during your May/June

    12 1994 visit, you could not get out of your car in

    13 Kiseljak or take pictures because it was too

    14 dangerous. Why was it too dangerous. This was after

    15 the cease-fire; correct?

    16 A. Yes, this was the opinion of the ECMM. I was

    17 under their control. I would not question it. I think

    18 they believed that what we could call -- there was an

    19 expression that was used a lot during the war, it's

    20 uncontrollable elements, and ECMM's opinion was that

    21 there were significant uncontrollable elements in

    22 Kiseljak.

    23 Q. Did they tell you that uncontrollable

    24 elements in Kiseljak were omnipresent?

    25 A. Something like that, yes.

  117. 1 Q. Did they tell you who these uncontrollable

    2 elements were and whether they had been there during

    3 the war as well?

    4 A. I'm afraid I can't remember -- the

    5 uncontrollable elements were Croat elements. They

    6 didn't enter into a long history about what they had

    7 done or not done during the war.

    8 Q. Let me ask you if you agree with the

    9 following, referring to acts of vandalism and violence

    10 perpetrated on cultural sites in Bosnia-Herzegovina:

    11 "These acts of vandalism are perpetrated --

    12 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, counsel, what page?

    13 MR. HAYMAN: Report of 19 January, 1994, page

    14 17, paragraph 64.

    15 Q. "These acts of vandalism are perpetrated by

    16 --

    17 THE INTERPRETER: Would you read more slowly,

    18 please?

    19 MR. HAYMAN:

    20 Q. "These acts of vandalism are perpetrated by

    21 representatives of authority, soldiers and military and

    22 probably civilian police. It can be posited that they

    23 are sometimes deliberately ordered by local authorities

    24 but that many of them are spontaneous." Do you agree

    25 with that, sir?

  118. 1 A. Yes, I do agree with it.

    2 Q. Let me ask, then, if you agree with the

    3 following, paragraph 65: "The sense of this term,"

    4 referring, I believe, to spontaneous, "Should be

    5 elucidated. HVO and BiH units are armies of civilians,

    6 sometimes led by ex-JNA officers, but often led by

    7 other civilians. The lack of discipline, combined with

    8 the suffering that many of these soldiers have known,

    9 either to themselves, directly in prison camps or

    10 occupied areas or to their families and their property,

    11 has caused an extremely dangerous force for prisoners,

    12 civilians, and property. Moreover, they are encouraged

    13 to commit outrages by political and military leaders

    14 who envisage Bosnia-Herzegovina as a series of small,

    15 pure ethnic states." Do you agree with that statement,

    16 sir?

    17 A. Yes, I do.

    18 Q. Are you in a position to tell us, to tell

    19 this court, whether it's your belief that all political

    20 and military leaders on the BiH army and HVO side

    21 encouraged persons or soldiers to commit outrages, or

    22 was it a subpopulation of that group, namely, only some

    23 leaders of any stripe that engaged in such activity?

    24 A. I think it was only some leaders. I don't

    25 think it was all leaders.

  119. 1 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Doctor. I have no

    2 further questions, Mr. President.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Mr. Kehoe, do you

    4 want to redirect?

    5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you

    6 very much.

    7 Re-examined by Mr. Kehoe:

    8 Q. You were just asked a series of questions by

    9 counsel concerning the destruction of cultural and

    10 sacral monuments being sanctioned by HVO politicians

    11 and leaders; is that right?

    12 A. Yes, I was asked that series of questions.

    13 Q. And you said that it was done by some leaders

    14 and not by others; is that right?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Are you saying, by that, that there within

    17 the HVO structure, there were moderate leaders --

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, please slow down.

    19 Think about the interpreters.

    20 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry.

    21 Q. Doctor, are you saying that within the Croat

    22 population, there were moderate leaders?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. As well as moderate military leaders?

    25 A. Yes.

  120. 1 Q. Are you likewise saying that within the HVO

    2 military, there were more extreme leaders, both

    3 political and military, within the HVO?

    4 A. I think that was probably the case.

    5 Q. Now, you noted that there were almost 69 per

    6 cent of the sacral buildings within Vitez, Busovaca and

    7 Kiseljak which were destroyed; is that right?

    8 A. Well, from moderate damage to complete

    9 destruction.

    10 Q. Moderate damage to complete destruction?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Some of which were completely dynamited.

    13 Now, that's well over half, and then the balance were

    14 damaged in a slight way; is that right?

    15 A. That's correct.

    16 Q. During these areas, there was a significant

    17 amount of ethnic cleansing of the Bosnian Muslim

    18 population, was there not?

    19 A. Yes, there was.

    20 Q. Who do you think was winning the day, the

    21 military commanders who were attempting to eradicate

    22 the Muslim population or the military commanders that

    23 wanted some type of coexistence?

    24 A. The former not the latter.

    25 Q. It's pretty clear when you look at the

  121. 1 evidence in that area, is it not?

    2 A. Yes, I think it's clear, yes.

    3 Q. Now, you were asked some questions, both on

    4 direct, but some additional questions by counsel --

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, please speak slowly,

    6 otherwise, once again I'm going to ask that we take a

    7 break for the interpreters because we can't go on that

    8 way. It's going too fast. Please slow down.

    9 MR. KEHOE: I do apologise, Mr. President. I

    10 will attempt to slow down.

    11 Q. You were asked some questions by counsel

    12 concerning the obligations of military commanders, as

    13 well as the record keeping that was done by the JNA,

    14 prior to the fall of the former Yugoslavia; is that

    15 correct?

    16 A. That's correct.

    17 Q. On JNA maps, do they not have religious

    18 facilities marked on those maps or do you know?

    19 A. I've not had, in my hands, a JNA map, but on

    20 the maps that we are using for going around, the

    21 religious facilities are clearly marked. I find it

    22 very hard to imagine that it is not clearly marked on

    23 the JNA map.

    24 Q. Would you conclude that JNA-trained officers

    25 knew that religious sacral and cultural monuments were

  122. 1 not to be destroyed?

    2 A. I think they knew that.

    3 Q. Let us talk about a few issues raised by

    4 Mr. Hayman, and let us start, if you will, with the

    5 Guca Gora situation. You commented in your -- pardon

    6 me for a moment, 31 August 1994 report concerning the

    7 issues in Guca Gora and the reported damage in Guca

    8 Gora. I read to you, did you not say this that: "The

    9 least bad solution under the present circumstances is

    10 that the ABiH remain in the ensemble until the return

    11 of the Franciscans can be assured, along with the

    12 stationing of an adequate police guard."

    13 A. Those are my words.

    14 Q. Did you not also say, when talking about the

    15 Fojnica monastery, again, counsel, this is on page 14

    16 of the 31 August 1994 report, and you recount the

    17 killing of the two Franciscan priests in November of

    18 1993, did you not also say that the monastery presently

    19 has a BH guard, police guard?

    20 A. Yes, I wrote that.

    21 Q. Did you get the feeling, during your research

    22 and years in the former Yugoslavia, that the Bosnian

    23 Muslim authorities had sensitivity to the destruction

    24 -- or Bosnian Muslim people as a whole, had a

    25 sensitivity to the destruction of sacral monuments and

  123. 1 sacral buildings?

    2 A. Yes, in fact, I have come to believe that,

    3 both from the war experience and also afterward. I

    4 remember, this is after the war, there's a little

    5 village near Novi Travnik called Pecine which is up in

    6 the hills. It's very far away from everywhere. It's a

    7 Croat village. I had information that in December,

    8 December 1996, I think, that this church had been

    9 torched, and I went up there, you know, you had to go

    10 up with a 4-wheel drive vehicle, winding, winding,

    11 winding road, nobody there, nobody there. I went into

    12 the village, and I did, indeed, find that the church

    13 had been torched. To my astonishment, I also found two

    14 Bosniak policeman who had been stationed up there to

    15 make certain that it wasn't completely torched. This

    16 is a post-war example.

    17 If you go back to the war, you will see in

    18 the various towns on the -- the front-line towns, that

    19 the authorities had done much, it seems, to make

    20 certain that the Orthodox churches and the Catholic

    21 churches were not abused. They didn't always succeed.

    22 Some places are very bad, and I'm not too surprised in

    23 towns that are shelled every day, you know, 20 or 30

    24 rounds, that somebody goes and torches the Orthodox

    25 church. There was a case, I think, in Maglaj. It was

  124. 1 quite striking that there seemed to be an effort on the

    2 part of the authorities, on many of the Bosniak

    3 authorities, to take care of these buildings.

    4 Q. How about the actual soldiers on the ground?

    5 Did you have any instances you might relate to the

    6 Chamber concerning the feeling of the rank and file

    7 among the Armija concerning the destruction of Catholic

    8 institutions? I point you to what you relayed to me

    9 concerning Dolac.

    10 A. In a certain sense, you know, very

    11 uncontrollable situation, leaders can say something in

    12 the capital, and then a local leader may have a totally

    13 different opinion, and the local leader cannot have

    14 complete control and something happens somewhere else.

    15 What I'm saying is a lot of things will rest on the

    16 individual soldier. It's true in Dolac, when I went to

    17 look at the church in Dolac, it was in June 1994, it

    18 was somewhat vandalised, not dramatically damaged, and

    19 I remember always a soldier, a Bosniak soldier from the

    20 Krajine, and he was a refugee, carrying a load of

    21 wood. He walked past us and he began sort of shouting

    22 at me. He said, "Why aren't you going down to the

    23 Lasva valley and looking at the dynamited mosques? Why

    24 are you looking always at the churches here?" And then

    25 he pointed at the church, and he said, "This is the

  125. 1 house of God. We will not destroy it." This was what

    2 was interpreted to me. And I was rather struck by that

    3 remark. I have always been struck by it and I've had

    4 to think about it since and what did it mean? Did it

    5 mean that the rural Bosniak was more respectful of

    6 cultural heritage than the rural Croat or the rural

    7 Serb? What did it mean? Because when he pointed out

    8 the church to me in that condition, I mean, that's what

    9 it looked like, that there was a respect for the

    10 religious object of the other faith.

    11 It's a very difficult thing to objectively

    12 analyse, weigh and compare the Croatian soldier, the

    13 Serbian soldier and the Bosniak soldier, et cetera, et

    14 cetera,. But I think when the inventories are finally

    15 completed on what happened to sacral heritage, one will

    16 find out that there was one side that did behave better

    17 than the other sides. Why was that? I'm always

    18 turning that one around and maybe I'm starting to find

    19 some answers to it. Excuse me, I'm not being very

    20 clear.

    21 In this war, people are always looking for

    22 simple answers. There were people outside in the

    23 international community who said that, they are all a

    24 bunch of savages so we don't go and intervene. Then

    25 there were other ones who said, oh, no, no, it was a

  126. 1 fantastic place, they loved each other throughout their

    2 history they lived together, et cetera, et cetera, and

    3 the truth is somewhere between.

    4 If you look at Islam, Islam has a special

    5 relationship to the Christian religion, a relationship

    6 that the Christians do not have with the Islam

    7 religion. Islam is a younger religion than

    8 Christianity, and Christians, Jews, are so-called

    9 people of the book. Our prophets are also the prophets

    10 under Islam. So there is a special kind of

    11 relationship, special attitude of Islam towards

    12 Christians.

    13 In Bosnia-Herzegovina, there's something

    14 else, is that the Turks, the Ottoman Empire controlled

    15 the area for four centuries. It was an empire of

    16 relative degree of tolerance, not sort of -- there's

    17 been a lot of said about how tolerant it was. It was

    18 fairly tolerant compared to many Christian monarchies

    19 of the period. In other words, I think that there's a

    20 kind of activism on the part of the Bosniaks. They

    21 tolerate, they have a history of tolerating the other

    22 religions. They were powerful. It's a memory of a

    23 power, of their society, of the civilisation, the

    24 Ottoman civilisation there in Bosnia. It's a long,

    25 long memory of it. It's a sense, although it doesn't

  127. 1 manifest itself that way, a kind of a sense of

    2 superiority, this respect and tolerance.

    3 And I think to a degree, that Christians

    4 whether they be Catholic or Orthodox, too have not

    5 forgotten something. They have not forgotten that they

    6 were tolerated. They have a different relationship.

    7 As I say, I'm sort of thinking out loud, I'm looking

    8 for reasons why it happened this way, because I don't

    9 believe necessarily that Sarajevo could give an order

    10 and it would be respected everywhere. Something deeper

    11 in individual people, and whatever the reasons, it is

    12 something of value, and wherever it occurred, whatever

    13 Serb or Croat or Bosniak, it's of value.

    14 With respect to cultural heritage, when the

    15 final inventory is drawn up, I think it will be shown

    16 that the Bosniaks behaved better than the other sides.

    17 I wrote that in 1994, and today I still believe it.

    18 Q. A couple of follow-up questions, Doctor,

    19 concerning some questions asked to you on

    20 cross-examination. The first has to do with the lists

    21 that were provided --

    22 JUDGE JORDA: I would ask you to answer the

    23 questions, not to go beyond the scope of the questions,

    24 because in respect of the Defence, it could be thrown

    25 off balance. Generally, you must answer the questions

  128. 1 directly. Try to answer as specifically as you can.

    2 Thank you very much.

    3 MR. KEHOE:

    4 Q. Doctor, you were asked some questions about

    5 this list of Islamic sites that was given to you by a

    6 representative from the Office of the Prosecutor, from

    7 the Islamic institute in Sarajevo; is that right?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Was that list correct?

    10 A. I pointed out that there were a few little

    11 problems with the list, but I believe it is basically

    12 95 per cent correct.

    13 Q. Did you conduct your own survey of those

    14 sites, in that you viewed the sites and made your own

    15 determinations concerning completely destroyed,

    16 seriously damaged, lightly damaged, or was that a

    17 decision that was made to you by some other

    18 institution?

    19 A. No, I checked what was on the list presented

    20 by the Islamic community. Nobody else told me to go

    21 there or not to go there or whatever, if that's what

    22 you mean.

    23 Q. You made your own decisions?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Now, if I can ask you to take a look at

  129. 1 Exhibit 390A. This is a map that has been received in

    2 evidence which is a view of Gomionica, if you could put

    3 that on the ELMO, please? You testified previously

    4 that there was a mekteb in Gomionica; is that right?

    5 A. That's correct, yes.

    6 Q. Is that designated as point 3?

    7 A. Yes, it is.

    8 Q. You were asked a couple of questions by

    9 Defence counsel concerning the identification of

    10 mektebs, and I believe you said, both in cross and in

    11 direct, that often from the outside a mekteb is

    12 difficult to identify; is that right?

    13 A. That's correct.

    14 Q. Now, you then said in cross-examination that

    15 sometimes you can see the outline of the mihrab on the

    16 mekteb?

    17 A. That's correct.

    18 Q. Well, certainly could you not identify a

    19 Islamic sacral site if you went inside?

    20 A. Of course.

    21 Q. The other side, if you take a look at

    22 Exhibit 390, you were asked some questions about a

    23 turbe in Gomionica. Is that designated in point 2?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. On Exhibit 390? Thank you, Mr. Usher. I'm

  130. 1 done with that exhibit. If we can turn our attention

    2 to the maps --

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, do you have many

    4 questions? This is in order for us to organise our

    5 work.

    6 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, two or three.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, go ahead.

    8 MR. KEHOE:

    9 Q. If we can just start on this first map, 451?

    10 Doctor, you identified these areas on Exhibit 451, as

    11 basically, front-line positions; is that correct?

    12 A. Yes, in front-line zones, yes.

    13 Q. Front-line zones.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Generally, soldiers in front-line zones are

    16 pretty busy, aren't they?

    17 A. Well, it depends if -- yes, they can be very

    18 busy. Sometimes they are just waiting.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Ask your questions directly,

    20 Mr. Kehoe. We could assume that soldiers are occupied

    21 with things. Ask your question, please.

    22 MR. KEHOE:

    23 Q. If there is fighting going on in these areas,

    24 and trenches are being laid in these areas, one would

    25 assume that the soldiers in the trenches are busy;

  131. 1 correct?

    2 A. Of course.

    3 Q. Defending themselves or engaging in an

    4 offensive?

    5 A. Of course, yes, yes.

    6 Q. And the two maps that you gave us, Exhibits

    7 353 and 354, the maps where the various locales are

    8 designated as being destroyed in HVO territory in

    9 varying capacities, they are within HVO lines, aren't

    10 they?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And the most significant damage that you

    13 observed was done in areas that was within the control

    14 of the HVO?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, Your Honours, I

    17 have no further questions.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I would like to

    19 consult with my colleagues for a moment.

    20 The interpreters are going to be the judges

    21 now. They are the ones who take the decision. I've

    22 consulted with my colleagues. We have about 20 or 25

    23 minutes of questions that the Judges want to ask,

    24 depending, of course, on how the answers are given.

    25 Then I think that there are no other witnesses, is that

  132. 1 correct, Mr. Kehoe?

    2 MR. KEHOE: No, that's correct, Mr.

    3 President. This is the last witness for the day.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, the interpreters are

    5 tired. In light of their fatigue, would they like to

    6 take a break immediately and then come back for the 25

    7 minutes or would they prefer that we finish now? For

    8 once, we're going to bow to the interpreters' will. I

    9 think we're going to take a break. There has to be

    10 unanimity here. There is no unanimous consensus, then

    11 we take a break.

    12 --- Recess taken at 4.17 p.m.

    13 --- On resuming at 4.43 p.m.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Have the

    15 accused brought in. We will now resume the hearing for

    16 the questions the Judges would like to ask.

    17 (The accused entered court)

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Let me first turn to Judge

    19 Riad.

    20 Judge Riad?

    21 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Dr. Kaiser. I

    22 would like to have some more information from you.

    23 That was very informative testimony, but I would like

    24 to have the benefit of your knowledge. Perhaps if you

    25 are in a position to answer me, because sometimes it

  133. 1 might be beyond your scope, although you are really

    2 here in two capacities. You are an expert on cultural

    3 heritage, and you have the ground experience of what

    4 happened. So in light of these two main backgrounds,

    5 I'll ask you my questions.

    6 You first went to Bosnia in June 1994 and

    7 then April 1998. You went twice?

    8 A. Your Honour, I went in May/June 1994 on a

    9 mission with the ECMM for the Council of Europe. I

    10 have since been back. I worked a lot in Mostar from

    11 the fall of 1994 to the summer of 1995. In October

    12 1995, I became a representative of UNESCO in

    13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm there all the time since

    14 October 1995.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: All the time?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 JUDGE RIAD: Then you are really an

    18 eyewitness. I'm speaking of the list that was given to

    19 you from ICTY in April 1998. You verified the damage

    20 done to certain sites. Now, this damage was done in

    21 1994 or 1993. It was done before. Would this lapse of

    22 time increase the damage or would it make it worse or

    23 would it make it better if it were repaired?

    24 A. Of course it makes it worse. When the roof

    25 is damaged, the rain is coming in and the ceiling is

  134. 1 rotting. If the building has been damaged by

    2 explosives and it has not been attended to, the damage

    3 gets worse, yes.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: In your opinion, much of it was

    5 repaired or much of it had deteriorated more?

    6 A. Well, let's say that the mosque, mesjids and

    7 mektebs, which are in the territory controlled by

    8 Armija, many of them have been repaired if they were

    9 damaged. In the other territory, if they had been

    10 damaged, they have not been repaired.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: In the places occupied by the

    12 HVO, nothing has been repaired?

    13 A. Nothing has been repaired.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: Nothing has been repaired.

    15 A. With one exception, one exception. In

    16 Rotilj, the mekteb, in fact, wasn't damaged. It wasn't

    17 damaged by HVO soldiers. It was damaged by refugees,

    18 in fact, who lived in it, so there's a totally

    19 different kind of damage, and that has been repaired,

    20 but that was the only case.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: Speaking of the damage, you

    22 mentioned there were several degrees of damage. Would

    23 you consider that -- you said that, among other things,

    24 there was no minaret standing in HVO territory. Did I

    25 understand you rightly?

  135. 1 A. Yes.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Would you consider that there

    3 was something systematic in trying to make all these

    4 minarets disappear?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: Systematic?

    7 A. If they all went, there was something --

    8 JUDGE RIAD: Not individual endeavours, by

    9 angry, angry, indigenous people of the police.

    10 A. Angry, indigenous people --

    11 JUDGE RIAD: Of the villages, just each one

    12 trying to destroy something.

    13 A. To destroy a minaret, you need explosives.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, and they were destroyed in

    15 some kind of a homogenous manner. You mentioned some

    16 of it was lying in a certain way.

    17 A. I believe that usually the explosives were

    18 set by people who are professionals, they knew what

    19 they were doing. In a few cases, not, but usually

    20 yes.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: By experts. And by heavy

    22 weapons, heavy mines, heavy explosives?

    23 A. Well, enough explosive to do the job. It's

    24 sort of a graduated scale, I think. It was well-dosed

    25 to do what was necessary. It depends on whether the

  136. 1 building materials are brick, whether they're concrete,

    2 whether they're stone. It depends on the building

    3 materials you have.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: It was by professional

    5 expertise.

    6 A. Most of the time, I think so, yes.

    7 JUDGE RIAD: Would you rule out the fact that

    8 all of these minarets would have been destroyed in the

    9 fighting?

    10 A. When you're fighting, you're doing something

    11 else. You are not shooting -- there is no point to

    12 shoot at a mosque, unless it's being used militarily.

    13 There's no reason to do so. I don't think that in

    14 fighting that the mosques were damaged. As I pointed

    15 out, there was very, very little damage from military

    16 means on the frontlines.

    17 JUDGE RIAD: So they were aimed at

    18 specifically? It was a specific damage, not casual

    19 damage done in fighting?

    20 A. The mining of the minarets was specific

    21 destruction, yes, outside of the fighting. It was by

    22 firing -- if you burnt the mosque that had a minaret in

    23 the roof like Han Ploca, that minaret fell through. If

    24 you have a brick or a cement, reinforcing-steel

    25 structured minaret, you use mines or some other

  137. 1 explosives.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Speaking of damage, you said

    3 that the sacral Muslim heritage was severely or totally

    4 damaged in Vitez, severely or totally damaged in

    5 Vitez.

    6 A. Okay, Vitez municipality under HVO control,

    7 yes.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: That was, let's say, the

    9 stronghold of the headquarters?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: There was no protection from the

    12 authorities, because you mentioned an example of Pecine

    13 village where you went and the monastery was protected

    14 by two soldiers, by two BiH soldiers?

    15 A. Two BiH policemen after the war.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: After the war?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: But to prevent damage?

    19 A. Yes, yes.

    20 JUDGE RIAD: Was there anything like that in

    21 Vitez, the protection of the sites of the sacral Muslim

    22 heritage?

    23 A. During the war, you're asking?

    24 JUDGE RIAD: Whenever you went.

    25 A. I did not see any protection of the sites.

  138. 1 They were all damaged. There were no policemen. There

    2 were no soldiers around them.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: And they were all damaged?

    4 A. Yes, the ones I saw, yes.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: You said "totally or severely

    6 damaged," to quote you right?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned that you have

    9 to fly a flag in order to indicate that it is a

    10 religious site or a cultural site; is that right?

    11 A. I think it is recommended that you have to do

    12 so. Normally, the lists are supposed to be

    13 communicated between two warring sides. So even if you

    14 don't fly the flag, they are supposed to know where it

    15 is.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: Do you think that you should

    17 also fly a flag on a minaret or does it speak for

    18 itself?

    19 A. To fly a flag to protect it?

    20 JUDGE RIAD: To protect a minaret, is it

    21 compulsory? If there's no flag on the minaret --

    22 A. Whether or not there's a flag on the minaret

    23 doesn't matter. You are not supposed to shoot at it.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: You are not supposed to shoot at

    25 it. I think I have one more question for you. You

  139. 1 went through many details.

    2 I think I'm well-informed. Thank you very

    3 much.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Judge Riad. Of

    5 course, if you have any additional questions, you can

    6 ask them whenever you like, once your colleague or

    7 myself have asked our questions.

    8 Judge Shahabuddeen?

    9 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Dr. Kaiser, would I be

    10 write in compartmentalising your testimony this way:

    11 There is a general part in which you spoke to us very

    12 engagingly, if I may say so, of the need which all

    13 communities feel to identify themselves by one method

    14 or another, and there is a specific part in which you

    15 told us of your observations in Bosnia, and you sought

    16 to relate that to the general part. Would that be a

    17 correct appreciation of your testimony?

    18 A. That's a very generous appreciation.

    19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Let us take

    20 the general part. Would I be right in understanding

    21 you this way: That all communities have a common need

    22 to identify themselves. They may do so by one method

    23 or another, and some communities may place greater

    24 reliance on one method than another?

    25 A. Yes.

  140. 1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, these methods would

    2 include, history, culture, religion, religious

    3 buildings, and religious objects, among others; am I

    4 right?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, let us take

    7 history. You did your doctoral thesis in France?

    8 A. I did it in London but it was French

    9 history.

    10 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I'm glad for the

    11 correction, but it doesn't blank the point I am about

    12 to put to you and it is this: With no disrespect to

    13 one country or another, would I be right in saying that

    14 the body of historical writing in, say, France about

    15 France is of greater density and larger proportion than

    16 the corresponding body of history in Bosnia?

    17 A. I think that would be the case, yes.

    18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Where the levels of

    19 historical writing differ, would I be correct to say

    20 that a community which disposes of a lower level of

    21 historical writing would tend to place greater reliance

    22 on religious buildings, religious objects, cultural

    23 artefacts for the purpose of meeting this common need,

    24 which all communities feel, to identify themselves?

    25 A. I think that would be a reasonable

  141. 1 hypothesis, yes.

    2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you. Would I be

    3 right in saying that in Bosnia, the infliction of

    4 damage on a religious building would tend to perpetrate

    5 a greater sense of injury on the perception by people

    6 of its own identity than in the case of a country which

    7 could place greater reliance on its sense of history?

    8 A. That could be the case. But, for example,

    9 after World War I in France, which already in 1918 had

    10 a very, very, very long and extensive rich written

    11 memory, the necessity to rebuild churches destroyed in

    12 bombardments was felt very strongly, and enormous

    13 resources were put into rebuilding hundreds of

    14 churches. So what you're saying could be so, but it

    15 would have to be nuanced as well.

    16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Yes, indeed, yes,

    17 indeed, that would be so, but I'm concerned not with

    18 the absolute need felt by people to repair buildings,

    19 but the relativity’s involved.

    20 Let us go to the question of mono-ethnic

    21 villages. I understood you to be saying that, yes,

    22 there were many villages in Bosnia which were

    23 mono-ethnic. Would I be right in understanding you to

    24 mean this: That a village which was mono-ethnic in the

    25 sense of being composed of Croats could, nevertheless,

  142. 1 co-exist in the same region with another village which

    2 was mono-ethnic in the sense of being composed of, say,

    3 Serbs or Bosniaks?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Would you draw a

    6 distinction between a situation where, within one

    7 region, you have a case of coexistence of different

    8 mono-ethnic villages on one side, and on the other side

    9 a region which consists entirely of mono-ethnic

    10 villages?

    11 A. I would draw a distinction.

    12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You would. If the

    13 evolution moved from the former to the latter

    14 situation, then I understand your testimony to mean

    15 that a change would be perpetrated on the identity of

    16 both peoples; is that correct?

    17 A. Yes, absolutely.

    18 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, let us move to the

    19 question of reprisals. It's a word you used. I,

    20 myself, will not repeat it to you in any more technical

    21 sense than that in which you may have employed it.

    22 Would I be correct in understanding you to mean this:

    23 Yes, on the side of the Bosniaks, there were instances

    24 in which damage was done to Catholic places of

    25 religious worship and so on, but that that was done by

  143. 1 way of reprisals in the sense of ad hoc, retaliatory

    2 action; is that a way of understanding your evidence,

    3 or should I understand that to mean that this signified

    4 the adoption by the Bosniaks also of a policy of ethnic

    5 separation?

    6 A. I think there's a problem of calendars and

    7 chronologies that always has to be sorted out --

    8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Tell me that.

    9 A. -- in these cases, otherwise, you don't know

    10 whether something is a reprisal or not. That's the

    11 answer to the first part of your question. The second

    12 part of your question: Is there an evolution towards a

    13 solution on all parties of mono-ethnicity in the war?

    14 I believe that is what you're saying. I'm looking now

    15 across a perspective of the piece, and I would say

    16 across a perspective of the piece, I think that is

    17 happening. It was probably happening in the war, too,

    18 in certain areas, also in Armija-controlled territory.

    19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: So that was the de facto

    20 position. Was that also the policy of the ABiH?

    21 A. I don't think it was. I don't think so.

    22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Now, you told us, if I

    23 may translate your terms, of a religious predisposition

    24 on the part of the Bosniaks to regard with a certain

    25 degree of respect Catholic places of worship; is that

  144. 1 correct?

    2 A. That's correct.

    3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You told us of seeing

    4 ABiH soldiers or policemen guarding Catholic places of

    5 worship which had been damaged?

    6 A. In a few cases, yes.

    7 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Did you ever see on the

    8 other side any HVO soldiers or policemen guarding

    9 damaged Bosniak buildings of worship?

    10 A. After the war, yes, but not during the war.

    11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Not during the war?

    12 A. Not during the war.

    13 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let us stick to the

    14 period of the war. Was this a matter of public

    15 knowledge that ABiH soldiers and policemen were

    16 guarding and protecting Catholic places of worship

    17 which had been damaged?

    18 A. I can't really answer that. I don't know

    19 that.

    20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You can't answer that.

    21 A. No.

    22 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Let us talk a little

    23 about Bugojno. You saw, I think, some damage to a

    24 Catholic place of worship, did you?

    25 A. Yes.

  145. 1 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: And you had occasion to

    2 write to the Uleima?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: For the purposes of the

    5 record, am I right in saying that the Uleima is a

    6 learned, religious gentleman --

    7 A. Yes.

    8 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: -- in a leadership

    9 position?

    10 A. Yes, he is the leader of the Islamic

    11 community.

    12 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: What was his reaction;

    13 do you know?

    14 A. He did not write back to me, but I heard he

    15 was furious.

    16 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Furious about your

    17 writing to him or furious about the damage?

    18 A. He thought I should be taking much more

    19 interest in Muslim cemeteries and not raising this

    20 problem of the Catholic cemeteries.

    21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: I see. Then I thank

    22 you. That is the last question I wanted to ask you.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: That was your last question.

    24 I'm going to ask you only a few questions, and then my

    25 colleague, Judge Riad, may have one or two questions to

  146. 1 ask, and then you will be finished.

    2 I might ask you somewhat of an indiscreet

    3 question. Were any other studies done on the question

    4 of cultural destruction? Do you direct thesis? Do you

    5 know students who might be working in that area or,

    6 perhaps, any other researchers elsewhere in the world

    7 that would be interested in that aspect of the war in

    8 the former Yugoslavia?

    9 A. During the war, Dr. Marion Wenzel, who is a

    10 noted specialist of the country, especially of the

    11 Stezi (phoen), you will find her reports also with the

    12 Council of Europe. She was also involved with this.

    13 I'm afraid I'm not aware of many initiatives during the

    14 war outside of the Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    15 There was a tendency to put into circulation

    16 lists of damaged heritage which were totally

    17 uncontrollable and not very, very useful. After the

    18 war, yes, there's a big interest after the war in the

    19 damage of cultural heritage.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. If I've understood

    21 you correctly, the mektebs are not very easily

    22 distinguishable from the churches or the mosques. In

    23 your opinion, in order to destroy them in any

    24 systematic fashion, in a well-targeted fashion, in your

    25 opinion, would you say that you would have to be a

  147. 1 soldier who comes from that area in order to spot them

    2 quickly?

    3 A. Yes, it's true in the case of the mektebs and

    4 in the case of some mesjids. You wouldn't necessarily

    5 know what it is, and you would have to come from the

    6 area in order to do so. For the mosques, that's an

    7 obvious thing.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Do you think that the

    9 destruction might have been caused by civilians,

    10 civilians that were not under the control of the

    11 military personnel, for example, who had been inflamed

    12 by propaganda? Do you think that would be possible?

    13 A. Absolutely. The one photograph that I showed

    14 of the roof being stripped, the bottom part of the

    15 roof, I think that was probably done by civilians who

    16 needed those tiles. There are other types of damage,

    17 for example, in a mekteb in Dolci. There is a very

    18 poor burning attempt on the floor which doesn't show

    19 very much determination. I think maybe that could even

    20 be children who attempted to fire it. Adults might be

    21 more determined. Soldiers would be better equipped.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: I understand. From the point

    23 of view of proportions, without being particularly

    24 specific but in a general fashion, in the type of

    25 vandalism that you noticed, were there more ritualistic

  148. 1 types of vandalism than others? My second question, I

    2 have two, if "yes," were your observations something

    3 that would lead you to think that what was involved

    4 with was a ritualistic vandalism?

    5 I know my question was long. Let me say it

    6 again: First of all, are there ritualistic types of

    7 vandalism? For example, in a Catholic church, one

    8 might shell the walls of the church. That's a

    9 ritualistic vandalism. But if you were to go into the

    10 tabernacle and pull out the hostises and throw them on

    11 the ground, that would be a ritualistic act of

    12 vandalism which would be even stronger.

    13 In the destruction that you noted, were you

    14 able to see that, in general, people went to the very

    15 heart of the ritual and to the very heart of the

    16 religious symbolism?

    17 A. Dealing with the destruction of a Catholic

    18 church by Serbs, there is so much similarity in

    19 religions that you know where to go and what to

    20 destroy. When it comes to dealing with an Islamic

    21 building, I'm not so certain that the Christians know

    22 as well. I've seen a few cases where, perhaps, a

    23 ritual is made up by those who did the destruction,

    24 that is, a setting of fire in the mihrab, which we

    25 would all know points towards Mecca.

  149. 1 In the case, possibly, of the Kiseljak

    2 mosque, if you look at the structure around the mihrab,

    3 the picture is not good, but it looks like somebody has

    4 been shooting at it and knocking the bricks off. But

    5 unless one considers the destruction of the minaret

    6 itself, but that's an invented ritual of those who

    7 destroy, it doesn't go to the heart of a desecration, I

    8 think.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: I have two further questions.

    10 Would you agree with me when I say that there are wars

    11 that are more territorial and economic wars, and there

    12 are others that are more ethnic. In the first

    13 category, one might consider, since you seem to be a

    14 specialist of French history, that the revolutionary

    15 wars or the war of 1914 were fought in order to gain

    16 the territories of Alsace-Lorraine.

    17 If you were to make a comment in this area

    18 that you're familiar with, would the principal

    19 characteristic of this war be the ritualistic war,

    20 religious, which would consist of going to destroy

    21 one's enemy to the very bottom of its own symbolism?

    22 Would that be a powerful characteristic of that type of

    23 war, in your opinion?

    24 A. I think it became that. That's a harder

    25 question to answer than it might seem. Those who

  150. 1 unleashed the war, unleashed it particularly for their

    2 own reasons. They had their own motives. They may

    3 have nothing to do or not much to do with those

    4 questions, but they certainly knew how to mobilise

    5 those kinds of energies on the part of their peoples.

    6 In the end, yes, as it went on, I think it became more

    7 and more that sort of struggle.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: My final question: You were

    9 able to draw some kind of a map where there would be an

    10 almost perfect equalisation between a territory

    11 occupied by the HVO, which would have a destroyed

    12 mosque, and a Christian steeple, which had been

    13 maintained in good condition?

    14 A. Mm-hmm.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Yes?

    16 A. Yes, I believe so.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Thank you very

    18 much. I know that my colleague Judge Riad had one or

    19 two additional questions to ask. The floor is yours

    20 again, Judge Riad.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: Dr. Kaiser, your answer to my

    22 eminent colleague, Judge Shahabuddeen, brought to my

    23 mind some other statements by you, as he said, in your

    24 general part, as a witness in history, apparently. I

    25 noted even what you said. You said that there was a

  151. 1 message in destroying the minarets, because where there

    2 are minarets, there are Muslims. The message was to

    3 the Muslims, "We don't want to live with you anymore,"

    4 and that the message was that they wanted to remove the

    5 Muslims from the memory of history, from the memory of

    6 the people, getting the Muslims out of chronology. You

    7 said the words "and out of the history of the

    8 country." These are very strong statements.

    9 Whereas, the Bosniaks accepted the

    10 coexistence. This parallels, perhaps, what Judge Jorda

    11 pointed out in your comparison. Then you also were

    12 speaking about the trend towards mono-ethnicity. You

    13 think the idea was to annihilate their existence

    14 through the destruction of cultural heritage, to

    15 annihilate the presence of the Muslim Bosniaks?

    16 A. Yes, I think that's what was going on here,

    17 yes.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: Whether it's vice versa or not,

    19 but not vice versa, in your opinion.

    20 A. It's a horribly contaminating thing that

    21 happened in Bosnia.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: But you're statement really

    23 means that the idea was to erase them out of history,

    24 to erase the Bosniaks out of history, and that was the

    25 purpose of the destruction of the minarets, of the

  152. 1 cultural heritage?

    2 A. To get rid, physically, of the people, to get

    3 rid of them of the memory of the region, and, as I also

    4 said, to remove them from the Croat.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: So an ethnological annihilation?

    6 A. Yes, to change fundamentally the Croatian

    7 identity in these areas. You have mono-ethnic villages

    8 where people may live to together. They may live

    9 separately most of the day, but there is an

    10 interaction. They are giving something to each other

    11 during the period that they are there. One of the

    12 reasons for all of this destruction, whichever side, is

    13 to get rid of that other person who is in your people,

    14 inside of, in the memory, in the way of doing things.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Judge Riad. Thank

    17 you, Doctor, it was long, but interesting. We're going

    18 to now send you back to your work, your very

    19 interesting work, and we want to thank you.

    20 We will first ask the registrar to have the

    21 usher escort Dr. Kaiser out of the courtroom.

    22 (The witness withdrew)

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much.

    24 Registrar, I would like to move into a closed session,

    25 please.

  153. 1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    2 5.25 p.m., to be reconvened on

    3 Wednesday, the 22nd day of July, 1998 at

    4 2.30 p.m.






















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