Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 381

1 Monday, 7 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

6 Could I ask the Court officer to call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

8 number IT-04-82-T, The Prosecutor versus Ljube Boskoski and

9 Johan Tarculovski.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

11 We've already had the appearances of counsel. I notice no

12 change, so we won't go through that again.

13 The case was listed today to commence hearing the evidence in the

14 case. Before that, I understand counsel have one or two procedural

15 matters. These will need to be dealt with quite quickly. We don't want

16 to lose time unnecessarily.

17 And just before we proceed to those, may I check firstly with

18 Mr. Boskoski, whether he can hear a translation in his language.

19 THE ACCUSED BOSKOSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And Mr. Tarculovski.

21 THE ACCUSED TARCULOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 From now on, the Chamber will assume that you are hearing a

24 translation in your language. If ever you are not, please either signal

25 to your counsel or stand up and let the Chamber know. Thank you.

Page 382

1 Now, there are matters which counsel wish to raise. The first

2 concerns an intended Prosecution witness who was to be called later, but

3 the Prosecution now wish to bring him forward in their list, I

4 understand, to the 21st of May because he has planned to be across the

5 Atlantic for some time from a few days after the 21st.

6 Can I indicate to counsel that the Chamber is aware that that

7 would create practical problems in the preparation of the Defence.

8 Certain confidential ex parte procedural orders have been made by the

9 Chamber which relate to this witness, and there would simply not be

10 sufficient time for the Defence to assess and assimilate material which

11 it is anticipated will be provided to them from various sources pursuant

12 to those orders if the witness is to be called by the 21st of May.

13 Therefore, Mr. Saxon, the answer is, I'm afraid, "No" to the 21st

14 of May. It would not be fair to the Defence.

15 The question then becomes: When, at a later time, it will be

16 convenient? And it may well mean that it will be necessary to bring the

17 witness back temporarily from wherever he is to give evidence.

18 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.

19 May we move into private session briefly, please, since I may

20 discuss some matters that relate to a personal nature for the witness.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Just for a short while.

22 MR. SAXON: Yes.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

23 MR. SAXON: I simply wanted to explain to the Trial Chamber, if

24 it hasn't been understood previously, that the Prosecution's concern with

25 respect to this witness is simply that as it is intended that the

Page 384

1 Prosecution's case will be relatively short, then the Prosecution was

2 concerned that the Prosecution's case would be over before the witness

3 was back on this continent, and so that -- therein has lied the

4 difficulty, and we will do our best to propose the solution that we

5 discussed.

6 JUDGE PARKER: You can deal with the matter one of two ways,

7 Mr. Saxon; either slow down, not to the point where we notice it, and

8 drag out your case, or you can proceed as you are proposing. Now, I

9 think you would find that if you tried to slow down, we would notice it

10 very quickly.

11 MR. SAXON: The Prosecution takes that fully on board,

12 Your Honour, and we will not try to slow down. We will do our best to

13 stay with our schedule.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. We all appreciate it's important to deal

15 with the case as quickly and as fairly as possible. Thank you.

16 Now --

17 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

19 MR. METTRAUX: Yeah, very briefly on this matter, Your Honour, if

20 I may.

21 The Defence is quite sympathetic, I have to say, to the travel

22 arrangements of this particular witness. However, we believe that VWS

23 could assist this particular witness perhaps in obtaining the visa which

24 he would need to come back to this continent and, if necessary, go back

25 to this other place.

Page 385

1 The Defence is quite concerned by the request of the Prosecution

2 for the videolink. We believe it's an important witness, and we believe

3 that it's a witness that must be seen in person to assess his

4 reliability.

5 The other concern which we have, which is the one that you've

6 highlighted earlier on, is certainly one of timing, Your Honour. There

7 is a number of pending matters that we are expecting, material which we

8 expect to receive and to review. There is also another matter which I

9 would bring to the attention of the Chamber at this stage, and it's an

10 ongoing discussion with the Prosecution about certain information which

11 do relate to this witness.

12 We've received a letter early this morning in relation to this

13 matter. Unfortunately, we believe that the response is unresponsive at

14 this stage, so we will have to pursue this matter further. And this may

15 again impact on not only the timing of calling of this witness, but

16 perhaps even on the admissibility of his evidence.

17 So we will endeavour to go as fast as possible with the

18 Prosecution and hopefully to find a solution, but we believe that at this

19 stage the fairest solution to the Defence, in any case, would be for this

20 witness to be called later and in this courtroom.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Mettraux.

22 Now, we've taken nearly ten minutes over the first matter, and I

23 have a note of several matters. We want to be rid of them all by a

24 quarter to 3.00 and move into evidence, so counsel will need to be

25 quicker.

Page 386

1 The next matter is, I think, again by the Boskoski Defence, is

2 it, Mr. Mettraux?

3 MR. METTRAUX: That's correct, Your Honour. We've been very

4 demanding with your patience today, and I'll try to be very quick. It

5 relates to the consolidation process of statements by the Prosecution,

6 and I think, to save time, we will make a formal response to the

7 Prosecution applications in writing.

8 At this stage, all we would like to point out to Your Honour is

9 the fact that the consolidation process seems to have been more than what

10 Your Honour ordered. We understood Your Honour's order as ordering the

11 Prosecution to merely avoid repetitions in the statements and to produce

12 one statement which would encompass all of the evidence of that witness

13 without anything else. We understood it to be merely a stylistic

14 exercise of removing repetitions.

15 We're quite concerned that we have identified a number of

16 amendments, of withdrawals, of deletions, or of simply of a succession of

17 evidence which may have the effect of neutralising, for example,

18 contradictions between statements.

19 I won't go into identifying them at this stage because we don't

20 have the time, but what has happened in a number of statements is that

21 successive shades of evidence, if you want, have been placed one after

22 the other, thereby suggesting that the witness from the beginning gave

23 that evidence, which is not the case. The evidence evolved, which may or

24 may not be relevant to Your Honour and to the Defence, but what we would

25 wish is to have a purely neutral exercise of consolidation.

Page 387

1 At this stage, we're quite concerned that the exercise has been

2 more confusing than anything else. There again, we've asked the

3 Prosecution to provide us with a copy of those statements which would

4 highlight all deletions and all additions, if any, have been made in the

5 statements, as some have been made so that it would facilitate the

6 response of the Defence, and at this stage we could decide whether to

7 challenge the admission of the statements themselves.

8 However, at this stage, I would also like to respond to generally

9 some assertions which are made, because they concern some witnesses which

10 will come this week. The Prosecution suggests that the addendum are an

11 integral part of the consolidated statement. Well, that's contrary to

12 Your Honour's order.

13 Another thing of concern to us are the numbers of addendum and

14 corrigendum which now come our way, and we're quite concerned about the

15 status of the evidence which has already been admitted, to the extent

16 that the evidence now added to the statement is contrary to the original

17 one. Which one is reliable? The original statement which has been

18 admitted, the new one? And we don't even know how this evidence will be

19 led now.

20 There's also another matter that I would like to highlight. It

21 concerns the documents.

22 The Prosecution has told us now that they will not seek to tender

23 the comments of the witness in relation to particular exhibits; however,

24 that they reserve their right, as we understood it, at a later stage.

25 Well, it's the Defence position this would be quite incorrect. If the

Page 388

1 Prosecution intends to use the evidence of that witness in relation to

2 particular documents, they have the duty to do it now. If they seek

3 later to tender those exhibits and to use that statement in one way or

4 another as an attachment, the Defence will not be able to cross-examine

5 on those. And unless it's being done in chief, we will not or we might

6 not examine the witness on those exhibits. So if the Prosecution intends

7 to ever tender these comments or this evidence of the proposed witness in

8 relation to that document, we believe it should be done at this stage.

9 As I pointed out, I will stop now, Your Honour, but we will

10 respond in writing to highlight perhaps for the Chamber some of the

11 difficulties which we have with those statements.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

13 MR. SAXON: Very briefly, Your Honour, to the best of my

14 knowledge, the Prosecution has not received a request from the Defence to

15 provide copies of these prior statements with highlighted deletions, so

16 perhaps the Defence counsel could check on whether that has actually --

17 MR. METTRAUX: It was sent on the 1st of May, Mr. Saxon. We will

18 send it again, Your Honour, so that it can accelerate things today.

19 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

20 The Prosecution produced these consolidated statements pursuant

21 to the written decisions and instructions of the Trial Chamber and

22 pursuant to the presiding Judge's instructions from the pre-trial

23 conference that was held on the 12th of April, where His Honour

24 Judge Parker noted that addendums -- additional information or

25 corrections that come up during proofing need also be addressed, and so

Page 389

1 that is simply what we did.

2 And it's the Prosecution's position that the 92 ter package, if I

3 may, would not be complete without the consolidated statement and

4 additional information that was provided during the proofing process.

5 And so that's why we tried to do it this way, to try to provide the

6 Defence with as much information as possible in as advanced time as much

7 as possible.

8 And, thirdly, we will use the exhibits -- certain exhibits with

9 accused -- excuse me, with Prosecution witnesses who are testifying

10 underneath rule 92 ter, and we will do this viva voce, so there shouldn't

11 be any confusion.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I see that there is no wish of Mr. Apostolski to

13 be heard at this time.

14 The Chamber would make a few very brief comments in the hope that

15 it may clear some of the issues in the minds of counsel.

16 First, the order of the Chamber with respect to those witnesses

17 whose evidence is to be led in chief with the use of a Rule 93 ter

18 statement, there being before the Chamber and the parties more than one

19 statement from that witness, the Chamber's order was that the Prosecution

20 should consolidate the several statements so that one statement was

21 produced which became the 93 ter statement -- 92 ter, I beg your pardon,

22 deleting unnecessary repetition, because there was quite a deal of

23 repetition as one went from one statement to another of the same witness.

24 Now, that becomes then the consolidated statement, the statement

25 which will be received as the statement of the witness when the witness

Page 390

1 is called here.

2 A second and distinct issue is one that is quite usual and

3 typical; a witness, when asked to consider past statements made a year or

4 two or more ago, will often note matters which they now have a different

5 view about or note matters they believe were not correctly recorded

6 originally, note matters which they now consider to have been omitted or

7 note matters which are there which they think should not be there. In

8 other words, they want to make some changes to previous written

9 statements.

10 There is no objection to them making changes. The effect of

11 change may be that there is an embarrassment to Defence in

12 cross-examining. If that should arise, there may be a need for some

13 allowance of time to allow the Defence to consider the change before

14 cross-examining on that issue.

15 Importantly, no statement of any of those witnesses is yet in

16 evidence. The fact that they were tendered under 92 bis or ter, they

17 have not been admitted. They will only be admitted when the witness

18 comes here, and if the witness, when he comes here or she comes here,

19 says, "Well, this is my statement, I believe this evidence to be entirely

20 correct except that on page 2, line whatever, this needs to be changed,

21 and on page 3, some other matter needs to be changed," that will be part

22 of the evidence of the witness given here, with those changes.

23 The procedural orders of the Chamber seek to ensure that the

24 Defence will have been aware of what the witness originally said in the

25 original statement, in each of more than one original statements, and

Page 391

1 what the witness now wants to say about a matter, so that Defence will

2 have available all of the progressive changes, if there are any, of a

3 witness so that the Defence is in a position to cross-examine about those

4 changes if the Defence considers them to be material.

5 And we seek, as a matter of fairness, to try and ensure that the

6 Defence has notice of each of those versions and any changes that are

7 wanted to be made here at the moment the witness gives evidence.

8 There is a third and, again, distinct matter. The Prosecution

9 may want to put to a witness a particular exhibit or a number of exhibits

10 to have the witness's comments or observations about the exhibit or some

11 matter concerned with the exhibit. That is a perfectly normal and proper

12 part of the evidence of the witness, as the evidence-in-chief is given.

13 It needs normally to be given during -- or done during the

14 evidence-in-chief of the witness, so that when the Defence comes to

15 cross-examine, it will already be known, the full scope of that witness's

16 evidence. So there should not be a problem there.

17 What can occur occasionally is that something raised in

18 cross-examination introduces some new issue about which the Prosecution,

19 in their re-examination, need to put to the witness some further exhibit.

20 Now, that is proper where it arises out of the cross-examination by one

21 or other Defence counsel. Apart from that, the Prosecution should lead

22 from the witness, when the witness comes to give evidence-in-chief, all

23 the evidence they seek from that witness, including any observations

24 about exhibits that they want that witness to give.

25 Now, I hope that those comments will help counsel understand the

Page 392

1 process a little more clearly as we proceed.

2 Now, is there a further matter, Mr. Mettraux?

3 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, two very briefly, Your Honour.

4 First, we're grateful for the indications. We will respond

5 according to your clarifications, Your Honour.

6 The other two matters pertains to the Defence ability to prepare,

7 and very briefly, for the record, the first one concerns the issue of

8 translations of Defence documents.

9 We've had a number of communications with CLSS where they've

10 indicated to us that they would wish us to deprioritise, as it goes, a

11 number of documents. It's very difficult for us to do that at this

12 stage, not knowing which witness, apart from the first 15, will come.

13 We've been very willing and we've attempted to be as cooperative as we

14 could with CLSS, but I just wish to indicate at this stage that there

15 seems to be some problem with the speed at which the documents are

16 translated, and I insist to point out that we are not blaming CLSS. They

17 are working with finite resources at this stage, and we have no reason to

18 believe that they work less than -- as hard as and as fast as they can,

19 but we are quite concerned at this stage that perhaps the registry should

20 be notified of that fact to see whether any further resources could be

21 given to CLSS as far as Macedonian translations are concerned.

22 The last matter finally --

23 JUDGE PARKER: Could I make an observation briefly on that before

24 we pass from it?

25 I have been aware and the Chamber has been very interested in

Page 393

1 efforts to provide adequate translation of written material, as well as

2 adequate interpretations of oral submissions and evidence which we are

3 now commencing on into Macedonia. This is the first trial in this

4 Tribunal which has involved the Macedonian language. It has been

5 necessary to recruit people to undertake this new role, and it has been

6 very difficult to obtain people with suitable experience because there

7 appears to be a growing demand in a number of parts of Europe and

8 elsewhere in the world for people with this interpretive and translation

9 skill. The Macedonian speakers can be assured that if law isn't going

10 well, they can turn to interpretation, it would appear.

11 The effect is that the -- it has not been possible to engage as

12 much resource as would have been ideal. It's understood that the

13 resources which have been found of a suitable quality will be adequate,

14 but at the start of a trial like this, when both the Prosecution and the

15 Defence are providing very large quantities of written material and

16 hoping to have almost immediate translations, physically the task is

17 simply not possible.

18 So anything that can be done by counsel to identify the documents

19 that are going to be needed first or most importantly would assist in the

20 process of identifying the documents to be translated first. Otherwise,

21 it's simply a matter of the supply and demand. It will simply take time,

22 and it will not be possible to produce translations of everything

23 immediately.

24 Now, the Chamber has this under observation and will be watching

25 progress, both in the areas of discovery, in the areas of Defence

Page 394

1 obtaining of further materials, which have been the subject of

2 confidential orders, and in this matter of translations. As I did

3 mention perhaps obscurely when we were last together and opening

4 statements were made, the Chamber is watching the progress and has in

5 mind that perhaps by the end of this first month, it may be necessary to

6 have yet a further few days' break to assist in the process of everything

7 catching up. We will watch that, and it may be that the last couple of

8 days of May and the first couple of days of June could be a convenient

9 time to enable people who are under great pressure, both counsel here and

10 the translation and other services, to catch up with the demands that are

11 there.

12 So just be aware that we're looking to that possibility, but as

13 we judge the witnesses that are first being called, there should not be

14 major difficulties over the matters we are speaking about. They will

15 become most important with later witnesses in the Prosecution case. So

16 we'd hope to be able to sit at least for three weeks without any problem,

17 maybe then with just -- I mention those particular dates because there is

18 a public holiday at the end of the month, and it may be in that week we

19 could add to the public holiday and have a few more days' break to enable

20 everybody to be more in command of all the materials.

21 The Chamber is well aware that it is a very difficult time at the

22 commencement of a case to get everything in order that's needed both for

23 Prosecution and Defence, and we will keep that matter under observation.

24 Now, Mr. Mettraux, your very last point.

25 MR. METTRAUX: I would be grateful for this indication as well,

Page 395

1 Your Honour, about that timing.

2 The last matter is -- relates to the EDS. We've been told by the

3 Prosecution on a number of occasions that the EDS system, the uploading

4 into the EDS, would be finalised by early March, then April, a number of

5 dates were mentioned.

6 At this stage, the EDS is not yet fully uploaded. I'm told that

7 there is approximately 20 batches that are outstanding and missing from

8 the EDS. Again, we don't wish to criticise the Prosecution at this

9 stage. I mean, they've had their loads -- loads of work to do as well,

10 but we are very concerned that this could impede our ability to prepare.

11 And, hopefully, this week it would be possible for the

12 Prosecution to finalise the uploading of the missing batches. As I said,

13 we believe there are 20 missing. We will give an indication to the

14 Prosecution of those batches which we think are missing, but we really

15 hope that the full uploading of the material can be done and finalised by

16 the end of this week so as to ensure that we are able to fully prepare

17 over the weekend.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mettraux. I think that's another

19 one to add into that list of all the -- the little things that are under

20 great strain at the moment, and the sooner they can be got into place,

21 the easier it will be for all people.

22 Mr. Saxon, you had a matter?

23 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. Actually, to respond, first of

24 all, to my colleague, I can inform the Chamber that to the best of my

25 knowledge, batches 23 to 33 will be available on the EDS system for

Page 396

1 counsel to use by the close of business today.

2 With regard to other so-called Prosecution disclosure batches, it

3 takes, I'm told by the technical people that work with the Office of the

4 Prosecutor to operate the EDS, it takes about a week for -- after a

5 request is made to put something on the system, for that material to

6 actually arrive and be accessible on the system. That is simply because

7 there are a number of trials operating at once and a great deal of

8 disclosure going on. But we will certainly endeavour and I will speak

9 again to the technical people to make sure that this work is done as soon

10 as possible.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Saxon.

12 Now, that concludes Boskoski Defence. Is there any matter which

13 the Tarculovski Defence needs to raise at this moment?

14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

15 thank you for your intervention with regards to fast completion of

16 translations, and I wish to stress that after the intervention by the

17 Trial Chamber, the translations are actually arriving faster. So I think

18 that they will be completed in due time.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Tarculovski -- I beg your

20 pardon, Mr. Apostolski.

21 Mr. Saxon.

22 MR. SAXON: I apologise, Your Honour, but the Prosecution has one

23 matter which it believes will affect many of the early witnesses, and

24 it's simply the issue of the ability to ask leading questions during

25 direct examination.

Page 397

1 The Prosecution has spoken with Defence counsel for both accused

2 about this matter, and there is a certain agreement which hopefully I can

3 explain clearly. It's simply this: The parties have agreed that when a

4 witness begins his or her testimony, the Prosecution may use leading

5 questions to establish facts such as the witness's name and identity,

6 where the witness is from, et cetera, et cetera, to save time.

7 Your Honour, where there is perhaps less of a meeting of the

8 minds, and I seek some guidance from the Trial Chamber, is certain

9 procedural and factual questions that must be addressed with either

10 92 ter or 92 bis witnesses, questions about whether, "Did you provide one

11 or more statements over the years to members of the Office of the

12 Prosecutor?", "Is the contents of your statement true and correct," et

13 cetera, et cetera. And I would like to ask some guidance -- for some

14 guidance from the Bench, respectfully, if the Bench will also allow the

15 Prosecution to use leading questions to establish these fundamental

16 elements for the admission of 92 bis statements or 92 ter written

17 statements.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, the description "leading questions" is

20 perhaps provocative and slightly misleading.

21 Those familiar with adversarial examination, as you are, will

22 know that with any witness, both Prosecution and Defence, it is often

23 necessary to direct the attention of the witness to a particular subject

24 matter about which questions are then going to be asked which are

25 material to the issues in the case.

Page 398

1 Those introductory questions or observations, which are merely

2 bringing the witness to a subject matter, are perfectly proper and save

3 much time. But what is to be avoided is questioning which suggests to

4 the witness the answer desired when the witness is dealing with any of

5 the issues that are material in the case and which are the subject of

6 dispute.

7 I'm sure that as we find our way through the first few

8 witnesses, those delineations will become a little more clear to counsel,

9 and they will become familiar and at ease with how far they may go by way

10 of introductory comment directing a witness to a particular subject

11 matter.

12 Was that enough to help you for the moment?

13 MR. SAXON: Absolutely. Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We didn't manage it in the half hour,

15 but we have managed it in my -- within my fallback position. We've done

16 it in 40 minutes. I gave ourselves an absolute limit of three-quarters

17 of an hour. So thank you very much for your cooperation there.

18 If it would be practical now to bring in the first witness,

19 please, Mr. Court Officer.

20 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honour, Ms. Motoike will call the first

21 witness and lead the first witness.

22 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.

23 The Prosecution at this time would call Mrs. Zenep Jusufi.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Motoike. The Court Officer is

25 already going to the room where the witness is waiting.

Page 399

1 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, with respect to this witness, I

2 believe the Prosecution sent an e-mail to the Chamber advising the

3 Chamber and the court staff about her need to have the declaration read

4 to her, if that's possible.

5 JUDGE PARKER: No problem with that.

6 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Mrs. Zenep.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Could I ask you simply to acknowledge at the end.

11 Do you solemnly declare that you will speak the truth, the whole truth,

12 and nothing but the truth? Thank you very much.


14 [The witness answers through interpreter]

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Would you please sit down.

16 Now, the process now is that Ms. Motoike will be asking some

17 questions of you. I think you have met her already. And if you would

18 listen to her and respond to her questions. Thank you very much.

19 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Examination by Ms. Motoike:

21 Q. Is your legal name Zenep Jusufi?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Does your name appear as "Zenep Jusofosa" on your

24 passport, though?

25 A. Yes.

Page 400

1 Q. And, Mrs. Jusufi, is your ethnicity Albanian?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are you married?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what is your husband's name?

6 A. Elmaz Jusufi.

7 Q. Do you presently reside in Ljuboten village, in the Republic of

8 Macedonia?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How long have you lived in Ljuboten?

11 A. For 42 years.

12 Q. And were you residing in Ljuboten on 12 August 2001?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On 12 August 2001, who lived with you at your residence in

15 Ljuboten?

16 A. Myself, my husband, my son, and the son of the uncle.

17 Q. Okay. And what is your son's name?

18 A. Rami Jusufi.

19 Q. In the early morning hours, Ms. Jusufi, on 12 August 2001, were

20 you at your home?

21 A. Yes. He was at home, sleeping.

22 Q. Okay. Well, my question was: Were you, Mrs. Jusufi, were you

23 present at your home?

24 A. Yes, at home.

25 Q. And around 5.00 in the morning on that date, what were you doing?

Page 401

1 A. I took my husband to the yard just to take him out for fresh air.

2 He's an invalid.

3 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, with the Court's permission, because

4 of Mrs. Jusufi's difficulty in manipulating or dealing with the

5 technology that's in the courtroom, I'd like to, with the Court's

6 permission, I'd like to show the exhibits I intend to tender with this

7 witness in hard copy.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Certainly.

9 MS. MOTOIKE: If I could ask the usher -- thank you.

10 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, you mentioned you had a son Rami Jusufi; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, correct.

13 Q. If I could ask for the usher's assistance in displaying on the

14 ELMO a photograph which is 65 ter 609, page one, bearing ERN 05016269.

15 It is also in the binders provided for this witness today, tab 3. Tab 3.

16 Thank you.

17 A. It's Rami.

18 Q. Okay. So you're looking at the photograph that's being displayed

19 in front of you; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. That's a photograph of your son Rami Jusufi?

22 A. Yes, correct.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Now, you told us, Mrs. Jusufi, that you

24 took your husband, Mr. Jusufi, to the yard on the 12th of August around

25 5.00 in the morning; is that right?

Page 402

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. And when you were out in your yard, did you notice or hear

3 anything outside of your house?

4 A. There was a lot of noise, people talking. A lot of people.

5 Q. And these people who were talking, did you recognise what

6 language they were speaking in?

7 A. Macedonian.

8 Q. Do you understand the Macedonian language?

9 A. No, just a few words. A little bit, I would say.

10 Q. Did you see these people who you heard speaking?

11 A. Excuse me.

12 Q. Did you actually see them?

13 A. No, I didn't see them with my eyes. The gate was locked, was

14 closed.

15 Q. Now, you're referring to a gate. If I may ask the usher's

16 assistance once more to show Mrs. Jusufi 65 ter 199.3, which is also tab

17 6 of the binders provided today. It's bearing -- I'm sorry, tab 6. I'm

18 sorry, it's tab 6. Thank you. This photograph bears N0057596. It's

19 also photo C, page 9 of the official court binder.

20 Mrs. Jusufi, do you see that photograph that's being displayed in

21 front of you?

22 A. Yes. Yes, it's mine, it's ours.

23 Q. Okay. Can you tell me, what do you mean by "ours"? Can you tell

24 me, what's depicted in that photograph?

25 A. It's our house.

Page 403

1 Q. And is it the yard area of the house that you're speaking of?

2 A. Yes, yes, this is the yard.

3 Q. Is this the area where you and Mr. Jusufi were that morning on

4 the 12th of August?

5 A. Yes. That morning, we were here in the yard.

6 Q. And by "here," do you mean the yard that's depicted in the

7 photograph?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And if you could take a look at the photograph to the left -- I

10 mean, sorry, to the right of the photograph, there is a blue wall or a

11 blue gate there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is this the gate that --

14 A. That's the gate, the gate that takes you outside the house.

15 Q. And this gate takes you outside the house. Where does it take

16 you to; to a street?

17 A. Yes, to the street.

18 Q. And these voices that you heard that day on the 12th, were they

19 out on the street or where were they coming from?

20 A. From the street. They were going towards the church.

21 Q. And later on that morning, did you go back outside to this area?

22 A. [No verbal response].

23 Q. I'm sorry?

24 A. No, I didn't. At 7.30, because the noise was growing bigger, I

25 took my husband inside and started to prepare breakfast. Actually, we

Page 404

1 didn't even manage to eat our breakfast, because the war began. My son

2 was asleep, and then the gate, the blue gate, was kicked open. And I

3 told my son to wake up. He put on his clothes --

4 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, let me stop you there for a second. Okay? Let's go

5 one step at a time for a minute.

6 When you took your husband out to the yard and you heard these

7 voices, at some point then did you take your husband back in the house?

8 A. Yes. I brought him inside the house.

9 Q. And is that when you said you tried to make breakfast?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then after -- when you tried to make breakfast, did you --

12 you said you heard some noises again. What noises were those?

13 A. I don't know. I didn't go outside again. I stayed inside.

14 Q. Okay. Did you hear the people speaking again?

15 A. No, I didn't hear them anymore. I was scared to go outside to

16 the gate.

17 Q. So when you went back inside to make breakfast for your husband,

18 who was inside the house with you at that time?

19 A. My son, myself, my husband, then the son of our uncle who had

20 come to have breakfast with us and coffee with us.

21 Q. And do you know the son of the uncle that you mentioned, what is

22 his name?

23 A. Muzafer Jusufi is his name.

24 Q. So once you get inside the house and you hear these noises, and

25 you said you were afraid, what did you do?

Page 405

1 A. I stayed inside. What else could I do?

2 Q. And what did you see, if anything, happen after -- after that,

3 after you heard the noises?

4 A. When the war began, the door was kicked open. They killed my son

5 at the door leading to the corridor. The house then was filled up with

6 policemen and whatever they were.

7 Q. When you say they kicked the door, which door do you refer to?

8 A. The gate, the door to the yard. I don't know how they opened it,

9 but there was this big burst. With grenades or something. That was this

10 big noise that even that the windows were shaking.

11 Q. And then when you say "the police," how do you know these people

12 were the police?

13 A. They were speaking Macedonian.

14 Q. Okay. Did you see what these people were wearing?

15 A. No, I didn't. I was behind the door, but my old man saw them.

16 Q. And by "old man" --

17 A. They had masks on their heads. I could only see some of them for

18 a short moment.

19 Q. Okay. Did you -- do you know how many of them you saw?

20 A. No, I didn't count them. I was too scared.

21 Q. And where were you in the house when you saw these men?

22 A. On the right side.

23 Q. On the right side. Were you inside a room?

24 A. Yes, inside a room.

25 Q. Could you see your front door from the inside of the room where

Page 406

1 you -- where you were?

2 A. No, you cannot see the gate, but there is another door on this

3 side of the photograph.

4 Q. Okay. To assist you, perhaps we could show, with the usher's

5 help, tab 5 of the binder that's been provided today, which is 65 ter

6 199.2. It's bearing ERN N0057595.

7 MS. MOTOIKE: It is also, for the Court, photo B, page 9, of the

8 court binder.

9 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, do you see the photograph that is being displayed in

10 front of you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what is that photograph of?

13 A. Photograph of my house, the part that takes you inside my house.

14 Q. And is this the front area of the house that you were talking

15 about earlier?

16 A. Yes, yes, the front side of the house.

17 Q. So for clarification, your house has a gate, and also in this

18 photograph it looks like there's a door to your house. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. That's the entrance door.

20 Q. And you said at some point, Rami was -- was killed. Can you tell

21 us what you saw -- well, let's go back for a second. When you and your

22 husband went back to the house after hearing the noises in the yard, you

23 go into the house and Rami is there; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was Rami doing at that time?

Page 407

1 A. Sleeping, he was sleeping.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no need to

3 object. Since the witness already answered the question, I have no

4 reason to object.


6 Q. And what did you do -- when you went back in the house with your

7 husband and Rami was sleeping, did you do anything to Rami at that time?

8 A. When I entered the house, as I said, I was going to prepare

9 breakfast around that time. He was still sleeping, my son.

10 Q. And then what did you do after you started to prepare breakfast?

11 A. I started to make breakfast, but the electricity went off. Many

12 victims fell.

13 Q. Okay. And after the electricity off -- went off, what did you

14 do?

15 A. We stayed inside. There was nothing else we could do. I had a

16 gas stove, so I started to prepare some tea on the gas stove.

17 Q. Okay. And after that, what did you do?

18 A. I stayed inside the house.

19 Q. Okay. At some point, did Rami wake up?

20 A. When the gate was opened, Rami woke up and went to the entrance

21 door, trying to close it, to lock it. But as soon as he got to the door,

22 they killed him.

23 Q. And how did they kill him?

24 A. They killed him, the army or whatever they were. He was wounded.

25 Q. And by "wounded," do you know how he was wounded? Well, let me

Page 408

1 withdraw that.

2 Do you -- Mrs. Jusufi, at some point when you saw Rami being

3 killed, where were you in the house?

4 A. I was inside, in the room to the right.

5 Q. Could you see Rami from where you were inside?

6 A. Yes, I could see Rami from where I was, because he was killed

7 inside the house, in the corridor.

8 Q. And where was Rami when you saw him get killed?

9 A. At the entrance door. He was trying to close the door. The door

10 was wide open because it was summer, so he was trying to close the door.

11 They saw him and they wounded him.

12 Q. Did you hear any noises at the time when you saw Rami get

13 wounded?

14 A. Could you please repeat your question? Yes, I heard a lot of

15 noise. They all entered the house. They were in the yard, many of them.

16 I could hear noises. I could hear noises, but I could not understand.

17 My -- my husband knows that better than I do.

18 Q. What kind of noises did you hear?

19 A. They said something like, "There is an invalid there." This is

20 what I heard.

21 Q. And did you hear any other -- besides voices, did you hear any

22 other noises?

23 A. No, nothing else.

24 Q. Do you know what caused Rami's wounds?

25 A. The police, the army, whoever they were.

Page 409

1 Q. Did you --

2 A. They were speaking Macedonian.

3 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, what did these people do to your son?

4 A. They wounded him.

5 Q. Do you know how they wounded him?

6 A. I don't know from where they shot, what kind of weapon they

7 fired, but he was hit by bullets.

8 Q. And after Rami was hit by bullets, did you see Rami?

9 A. Me?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Yes, of course. He was there at the entrance door.

12 Q. And what happened to Rami when you saw him get hit by bullets?

13 A. I don't know how to describe it.

14 Q. Was he still at the front door?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And were you still in the same position that you described to us

17 earlier?

18 A. Yes, I was there. They came at the door, the entrance door.

19 They kicked that open. They were firing towards the washing machine.

20 Q. Okay. At some point, did the firing stop?

21 A. After this was set on fire, we were covered in smoke.

22 Q. And while you were in your house and you saw Rami get -- get hit

23 by the officers, what I'm asking is, what did -- at some point, did the

24 shooting that you heard stop?

25 A. Would you please repeat it? I didn't understand the question.

Page 410

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has never said that

2 she has seen that Rami has been hit by some officers, as it is said at

3 page 21, line 18. I would like to ask the Prosecution not to testify in

4 the place of the witness.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

6 Carry on, please, Ms. Motoike.

7 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

8 Q. You said that they were firing towards the washing machine. At

9 some point, did the firing stop?

10 A. Yes. After this gas container was set on fire, a three- or

11 four-litre gas container was set on fire as well. Then they went back,

12 and we took our son and brought him inside in the room.

13 Q. The gas container that you mentioned, where was that located?

14 A. It was close to the phone, in the corridor, in the entrance area.

15 Both the phone and the container were set on fire.

16 Q. And that was inside your house?

17 A. Yes, inside the house.

18 MS. MOTOIKE: If I could ask for the usher's assistance again.

19 If he could show tab 1 of the witness binder that was provided today,

20 which is 65 ter number 608, page number 5, bearing ERN 05016263.

21 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, I apologise. I have to show you this photograph.

22 Do you recognise this photograph?

23 A. Yes. It's my son, Rami Jusufi.

24 Q. And is this what Rami looked like that day you saw him after

25 being hit by bullets?

Page 411

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. MOTOIKE: If I could ask the usher's permission to -- thank

3 you.

4 Q. After you moved Rami to the room inside your house, what did you

5 do?

6 A. I lost my consciousness. I wasn't aware any longer.

7 Q. And what happened to Rami?

8 A. You can see for yourselves. He died immediately.

9 Q. At the time when you saw Rami going to the door, did you see any

10 weapons in Rami's hands?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would like to

12 object. We would object for some of the questions that the esteemed

13 colleague is suggesting. They are leading questions. The last one being

14 the one that she would like to hear the answer to is also a leading

15 question. Before that, we did not want to intercept the -- we don't want

16 to harm the matter of the dead Rami Jusufi, but we would like to ask not

17 to have any more leading questions asked, please.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Can I indicate I've not seen any real

19 reason for concern at the questions that have been put so far. The last

20 question directed to a subject matter but did not indicate at all what

21 would be the answer or the preferred answer. An issue of some

22 materiality in this case, I would anticipate from your reaction, is

23 whether the dead lad was armed or not armed at the time he was shot. She

24 asked that question in a way that did not suggest a particular answer,

25 and in the context of this case that certainly would seem not to be a

Page 412

1 matter of objection.

2 Carry on, please, Ms. Motoike.

3 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

4 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, I'd asked you at the time when you saw Rami going to

5 the door, did you see any weapons in Rami's hands?

6 A. No, he didn't have any weapon in his hands. We never had weapons

7 in our house. I myself don't know what weapons are. I have only seen

8 them on TV. There have never been weapons in our house or in the

9 village, in general.

10 Q. At some point on that day, the 12th of August, did you have --

11 after Rami was wounded, did you have an opportunity to go outside your

12 house?

13 A. I couldn't even bring some water for my son. He wanted water,

14 and I couldn't go out and get some water because they were on the

15 terrace, shooting from our terrace.

16 Q. Okay. When you say "they," who are you referring to?

17 A. Those who were firing, who were shooting, the police, those who

18 did this.

19 Q. And you referred to the police. Why do you say they were the

20 police?

21 A. What else could they have been? It was the police, those that

22 they had collected and brought there.

23 Q. How were these people dressed?

24 A. I didn't see them. My husband did, but I personally didn't.

25 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, I don't know if this might be an

Page 413

1 appropriate time to break. I don't have much longer, but I know that the

2 interpreters probably do need a break, so I didn't know.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It's too early yet, so unless there's a problem,

4 another quarter of an hour or so.

5 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

6 If I could ask for the usher's assistance once more. Could we

7 please show Mrs. Jusufi tab 7 of the binder that's been provided today.

8 It's 65 ter number 197, page 168, bearing ERN N0014925-08.

9 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, do you see the photograph that's being displayed in

10 front of you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is this a photograph of?

13 A. This is a photograph of the house.

14 Q. And by the "house," do you mean your house?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And at some point on the 12th of August, after all of this

17 happened and after they were on the terrace, did you have an occasion to

18 go outside your house?

19 A. No. We stayed in the house for 12 hours. It was impossible for

20 us to leave the house and go even in the yard.

21 Q. At some point, did you go to the yard after the 12 hours?

22 A. Darkness fell then.

23 Q. Okay. On the next day, did you go outside of your house?

24 A. What could we do on the next day?

25 Q. What I'm asking you is: Did you step outside your house the next

Page 414

1 day?

2 A. We left the house, all of us.

3 Q. Okay. And do you see the photograph that's marked -- that's

4 being displayed in front of you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And do you see the door in this photograph?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what is that door?

9 A. It's the entrance door from where you enter the house.

10 Q. And can you tell us if this door depicted in the photograph, does

11 it look like the door to your house as it is now?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. With the -- do you see that there's broken glass in the windows

14 of the door?

15 A. The glasses were all broken on the first and the second floor.

16 Nothing was left intact.

17 Q. And did the door look like it is in the photograph, with the

18 broken glass? Did it look like that after the police arrived at your

19 house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you see the bottom part --

22 A. The police broke them. This, the car on fire, the house,

23 everything we, had they set them on fire.

24 Q. Do you see the bottom part of the photograph, in the bottom right

25 corner of the photograph? Do you recognise what's depicted in that part

Page 415

1 of the photograph?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what is that?

4 A. They burned the car.

5 Q. I'm referring to the photograph that's in front of you. In the

6 bottom right corner of the photograph. Do you recognise the things in

7 the bottom right of the photograph?

8 A. I don't see anything here.

9 MS. MOTOIKE: Could we perhaps show her the actual hard copy? I

10 have an additional --

11 JUDGE PARKER: The question might be directed to the bottom

12 centre of the photo.

13 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

15 ... bullets.


17 Q. And do you recognise --

18 A. I see them now. They are bullets.

19 Q. And did you see those on the day after the police arrived at your

20 house?

21 A. Yes, yes. These are the bullets that entered the house the day

22 that they shot at it.

23 Q. You mentioned that the car was on fire.

24 MS. MOTOIKE: Could we please show Mrs. Jusufi tab 9 of the

25 binder that's provided today, which is 65 ter 197, page 166, bearing

Page 416

1 ERN N0014925-05.

2 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, do you see that photograph?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

5 A. It is the car that this -- that they burned.

6 MS. MOTOIKE: And showing you, with the usher's assistance, tab

7 11 of the binder that's been provided today, 65 ter 197, page 173,

8 bearing ERN N001492515.

9 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, do you see the photograph that's in front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recognise what's depicted in that photograph?

12 A. I see the car and some burned materials.

13 Q. And by "the car," do you mean the same car that you referred to

14 earlier?

15 A. This is the car. You are asking me about the car? Yeah, it is

16 the same car, our car.

17 Q. And this -- in the middle of the photograph, there looks to be

18 what looks to be a gate. Do you see that?

19 A. It is the gate -- the entrance gate, the yard gate which they

20 shot at.

21 Q. Did your gate look like this prior to the officers arriving at

22 your residence that day?

23 A. Yes, but it was good, in good condition. It was painted, and

24 then they shelled it and brought it to this state. I don't know what to

25 say.

Page 417

1 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. That's all the

2 questioning I have with respect to Mrs. Jusufi. However, I would ask to

3 tender the photographs, that I've shown her, into evidence, please.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I believe you've not shown all the photographs.

5 You intended that?

6 MS. MOTOIKE: I intended not to show all of them, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you could ensure, with the court officer

8 during the break, exactly which numbers in the tab you propose to tender

9 as an exhibit, and with that she can be ready to receive them after the

10 break.

11 In the meantime, could I just clarify one or two things, please,

12 with you, Mrs. Jusufi?

13 I'm sorry to take you back to this matter, but you mentioned that

14 your son was shot as he was in your house, inside the front door, and you

15 mentioned then that these people, who were speaking Macedonian, stepped

16 back from the door, and you were able, as I understood you, to move your

17 son into a room in the house.

18 Was your son at that stage alive or dead? Are you able to help

19 us with that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am -- I can't understand it. I

21 showed you once. I don't seem to remember everything. I forget things.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I can understand that. You did indicate at one

23 stage that you weren't able to get water for your son. Did you --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He asked me for water. He was

25 thirsty. But I don't seem to remember everything, Your Honour.

Page 418

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And when he asked you for water, that was

2 after he'd been shot, was it?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After they shot him, he asked for

4 water. We couldn't provide him water, and then he died.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

6 I also noticed that in the photograph, a bandage had been put

7 around his wounds, around his stomach. Do you know who put the bandage

8 on?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did, because there was a lot of

10 blood coming out of the wound. I tied the belly with a piece of sheet.

11 JUDGE PARKER: And when you did that, was your son still alive or

12 had he died by then?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He died at that moment.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

15 I'm sorry to have had to ask you about those matters,

16 Mrs. Jusufi.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even if 300 years passed by and

18 I'm alive, I won't forget that day.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. What we will do now is have a break. We

20 must have a break for --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't have anything else to say.

22 I think I told you everything, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, but there will be a few more

24 questions from other counsel. I hope you will be able to bear with us

25 there.

Page 419

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want to hear any more

2 questions because I don't have anything to say.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, yes. We will have a break to enable

4 you to refresh yourself, and then we'll resume here at a quarter past

5 4.00. We've got to do that because some of the tapes in the technology

6 here must be changed after an hour and a half, and a half an hour is

7 needed for that.

8 So if you would be good enough, when we leave the courtroom, to

9 go with the court officer to the room where you can rest for a little

10 while, and then if you would return here when you're asked.

11 Thank you very much, Mrs. Jusufi.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Ms. Motoike, you wanted to tender certain

15 exhibits, and you've discussed those with the court officer, I take it?

16 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I would ask the court officer then to

18 indicate the numbers assigned, please.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document under tab 3, and that

20 is 65 ter 609, photograph 1, will become Exhibit P-1. The document under

21 tab 6, 65 ter number 199.3 will become Exhibit P-2. The document under

22 tab 5, 65 ter number 199.2, will become Exhibit P-3. The document under

23 tab 1, 65 ter number 608, page 5, will become Exhibit P-4. The document

24 under tab 7, 65 ter 197, page 168, will become Exhibit P-5. The document

25 under tab 9, 65 ter 197, page 166, will become Exhibit P-6. And the

Page 420

1 document under tab 11, 65 ter 197, page 173, will become Exhibit P-7.

2 Thank you.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

4 Now, does that conclude your examination, Ms. Motoike?

5 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes, thank you.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

7 There will be some further questions now. Ms. Residovic.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Ms. Jusufi.

11 A. Good day.

12 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, and together with my colleague,

13 Guenal Mettraux, I am the Defence counsel for Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

14 Before I start asking questions that I intend to ask you, I wish,

15 on behalf of Mr. Boskoski and on behalf of his Defence counsels, to

16 express my condolences for the loss of your son.

17 Also, Mrs. Jusufi, I wish to thank you for the fact that more

18 than a year ago, you admitted me into your house in Ljuboten, and you

19 allowed me to have an interview with you and your husband about the event

20 that you testified about before this court.

21 I would like to ask you, Mrs. Jusufi, if you do not understand my

22 question, please let me know immediately and I will repeat the question

23 so that you are able to answer that question.

24 Have you understood me?

25 A. I have no more answers to give. I have nothing more to add. I

Page 421

1 already said what I had to say.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Judge if

3 he could clarify to the witness.

4 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues]... your question,

5 please, Ms. Residovic.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, you stated that you are the wife of Elmaz Jusufi; is

8 that correct?

9 A. [No verbal response].

10 Q. With Mr. Elmaz Jusufi, you've had four children; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. One of your sons has died several years ago, and the eldest son,

13 Rami, was killed in the village on the 12th of August, 2001, as you have

14 testified before this Court; is that true?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. Now, Mrs. Jusufi, you have two children: your son Salahedin and

17 your daughter, Peret [phoen]; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. In the house that you have recognised in the photographs, you

20 used to live in the year 2001 with your husband, who is disabled, and

21 with your daughter -- son, Rami, his wife and children; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to speak closer to

24 the microphones, please?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 422

1 Q. The youngest son, Salahedin --

2 A. Rami's wife with four children.

3 Q. Yes. So the wife of the killed Rami had four children with Rami,

4 and they live with you now; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, they live with us because they have nowhere to go.

6 Q. Your younger son, Mrs. Jusufi, Salahedin, used to live in his

7 house adjacent to yours?

8 A. In his house.

9 Q. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct, in his house. Salahedin lives in his house.

11 Q. And in the year 2001, your youngest son was married as well; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes. My youngest son has been married for 12 years now.

14 Q. You can go to the door of your son to a garden gate?

15 A. No, he has his own.

16 Q. Is that correct? Your daughter, Miberan [phoen], is married and

17 lives with her husband, Ismail Durmishi?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. She lives in Ljuboten, in the neighbourhood Durmisina. That is

20 one kilometre away from your house; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. You could come to your daughter's house through the road, or via

23 a meadow and a creek, behind which immediately on the right-hand side

24 there is the house of your daughter; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 423

1 Q. You have already stated to our colleague, the Prosecutor, that

2 you live in the family house, and tell me, is it correct that your house

3 is located in the vicinity of the Orthodox Church in Ljuboten; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to ask

7 now that the witness is shown court binder page 9, photograph number 65,

8 65 ter, number 199.2. This is the photograph that the Prosecutor has

9 already shown to the witness, and it has been given the label "table 5".

10 I apologise. I was just told that that photograph has been given

11 the Prosecution number P-3.

12 Q. Do you have the photograph in front of you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, can you indicate in this photograph the garden gate

15 through which you could go to the house of your younger son?

16 A. It was behind the house. It was burned. Can't see it here, I

17 can't find it here. We have to go from the other side. There isn't any

18 gate on our side.

19 Q. Okay. So then in this photograph, you were not able to recognise

20 the entrance in to the house of your son, because it is located behind

21 your house and it can't be seen in the photograph.

22 A. There is, in front of our house, there is a road that comes

23 round.

24 Q. Please help me now a bit, Mrs. Jusufi. Let's see how one arrives

25 to your house. Is it correct that if, from Skopje, we're coming to

Page 424

1 Ljuboten, from the direction of the village of Ljubanci, then one must

2 pass by the house of Brace and several Macedonian houses; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That street comes to a crossroad with the street 5, that is, the

6 Main Street in Ljuboten; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. At the very crossroad, there is a shop; is that true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. From that shop to your house, you need to turn to the right

11 towards the direction of the Orthodox Church; is that correct?

12 A. On the left, yes, you turn on the left and our house is on the

13 left.

14 Q. Around your house, there is a wall with a metal gate that

15 prevents people seeing from the street what happens inside the

16 court -- inside the garden of your house; is that correct?

17 A. I didn't go out to look.

18 Q. So you have never viewed your house from the street; is that what

19 you wish to say, Mrs. Jusufi?

20 A. I have gone out on the street, but I didn't pay attention, I

21 didn't look whether you can see or not see inside my house.

22 Q. Is it correct, Mrs. Jusufi, that the majority of the houses in

23 your neighbourhood also have walls that prevents a view from the main

24 street inside the house and the gardens around the houses?

25 A. [No interpretation].

Page 425

1 Q. In your neighbourhood --

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I will ask you, Mrs. Jusufi, to repeat the answer, because it did

5 not go into the transcript of the session. So is it correct that all

6 houses in your neighbourhood have such walls around them?

7 A. Yes, they do, and you cannot see into their yards. You can't see

8 anything inside.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to ask

10 now that the witness is shown Prosecution Exhibit P-2.

11 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, a while ago you indicated the front gate, the one

12 painted blue, that separates your garden, your yard, from the main

13 street; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it correct, Mrs. Jusufi, that when you go through that gate,

16 your yard has a slight incline by which you climb down to your house; is

17 that correct?

18 A. Yes. Yes, you can see the house here. It's my son's house, but

19 there is no garden gate.

20 Q. Okay. Mrs. Jusufi, I would like to ask now that you're shown

21 65 ter number 197 --

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will ask, since they can't be

23 found on the e-court, I would like to ask that the witness is shown a

24 photograph in the 65 ter list of the Prosecution.

25 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, judging from the position of this car that you see

Page 426

1 in the photograph, is it completely clear that your yard, from the front

2 gate, from the main street, has a slope -- a slight incline coming

3 towards your house?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Tell me now, Mrs. Jusufi, is it correct

6 that in your neighbourhood live the families Jusufi, then a bit further

7 away from you the family of Kamberi, and the closest Macedonian neighbour

8 is Sande Kostovski; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The Kamberi family, namely, Fatmir Kamberi, has in your

11 neighbourhood two houses: one is located in the small lane, Mal Sokak,

12 and the other one is towards the mosque and the second one was burned.

13 Are these facts correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Considering that in your neighbourhood predominantly the Jusufi

16 families are living, could you, Mrs. Jusufi, tell the Court whether it is

17 correct that in Ljuboten, as in most Albanian villages, in the

18 neighbourhood there are mainly families living, families that are related

19 by blood?

20 A. Yes, seven or eight households are related by kin. We're all

21 Jusufis. My husband knows these things better.

22 Q. Those families, as is customary in Ljuboten as well, are related

23 by blood through the male stream; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The women are marrying and going to the family and the

Page 427

1 neighbourhood of their husband; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And so your daughter got married and went to live in the

4 neighbourhood Durmisina; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. A while ago, Mrs. Jusufi, we discussed the wall that surrounds

7 the yard of your house and other houses. Tell me, please, is that also

8 part of the tradition in the Albanian community which aims to preserve

9 the privacy of each of the families from the unnecessary interference

10 from other people into their family life. Are you aware of that?

11 A. Yes, yes, you could say that.

12 Q. Also, if we're discussing the tradition of your people, can we

13 say that a husband within a family, in the Albanian people, in the

14 Albanian community, has the main say, and the woman respects what the

15 husband says and does not contradict this? Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, correct.

17 Q. Also, especially in the rural regions, many of the women do not

18 decide to go to school or they terminate their schooling very early; is

19 that correct as well?

20 A. Who is willing to, they continue with their schooling, and who is

21 not, they stay.

22 Q. Thank you. In the tradition of the Albanian people, the men are

23 the ones who preserve the honour of the family, especially of the mother

24 and the wife and the daughter; is that correct?

25 A. I don't understand you.

Page 428

1 Q. Tell me, please, is it correct that the men in the family have

2 the duty to say -- to guard the honour and the respect of the mother and

3 daughter?

4 A. Yeah, that's correct.

5 Q. Also, briefly about some general issues. Tell me, is it correct

6 that in the tradition of the Albanian people, a word, once given, the

7 so-called besa, a promise, must not be broken?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Persons -- I apologise, the answer was not "no." I will repeat

10 the question.

11 Is it correct, Mrs. Jusufi --

12 A. I didn't hear you quite well.

13 Q. Okay. Is it correct that in the tradition of the Albanian

14 people, and also in your village, Ljuboten, people, when they make a

15 besa, a promise, that besa must be respected?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. And if someone breaks the vow, the promise so given, the besa --

18 A. Nobody from the Albanians will break the besa.

19 Q. -- they can be strictly sanctioned by their own people; is that

20 correct?

21 A. No, that's not correct. Albanians will never break a promise. A

22 promise is always a promise.

23 Q. So in your experience, the besa, the promise, must never be

24 broken; is that correct?

25 A. Well, how can you break a promise? This is not clear to me.

Page 429

1 Q. Okay. I will now ask you, Mrs. Jusufi, some questions related to

2 the events you testified about when my learned colleague, the Prosecutor,

3 examined you.

4 A. I can't go on anymore. I think this was enough.

5 Q. Apart from your testimony today, is it correct, Mrs. Jusufi, that

6 you have made statements twice to the Prosecutor of the ICTY? Is that

7 correct?

8 A. I don't know. My husband knows these things. Personally, I

9 don't know.

10 Q. If I tell you that your first statement to the investigator of

11 the Prosecutor's office of the ICTY was made on the 3rd of October, 2004,

12 you will be reminded of that and you can then confirm this to me; is that

13 so?

14 A. I really don't understand this. Men knows these things. I

15 really don't understand these matters.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask now that the

17 witness is shown the document 65 ter 1D1, ID 0004. That is the page

18 number.

19 Q. Until we receive the image, I would like to ask Mrs. Jusufi: Is

20 it correct that you are illiterate?

21 A. Yes. I don't know how to write or read.

22 Q. Yes. But you can write your own name; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, only my name, nothing else. Even my own name, I don't know

24 how to write it correctly.

25 Q. Is it correct that when you were interviewed earlier by the

Page 430

1 Prosecutor, that your husband would always be with you; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. My husband also signed.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask now if that

4 is possible to show the witness 65 ter, document 1D1, 004. Can you give

5 us the English version of the document I've mentioned? That is

6 1D1, 0001.

7 Q. Can you see in front of you the image where you have signed?

8 A. No, I can't see that.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then we will ask the usher to

10 show the witness the first page of the aforementioned document, because

11 the witness can't see the first page --

12 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues]... before the

13 witness.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Do you see it now?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you confirm that this signature is your personal signature?

18 A. Yes, it is. I can't see it very clearly.

19 Q. Is it correct, Mrs. Jusufi, that when you made this statement and

20 you signed this paper, your husband was together with you?

21 A. Yes, but he cannot move. He is an invalid. I don't know.

22 Q. Tell me, is it correct that you never made a statement to the

23 Prosecutor outside the presence of your husband? Is that correct?

24 A. My husband is an invalid. This statement is mine, but the other

25 one that I'm looking, that one I don't know whose it is. Maybe it's my

Page 431

1 husband's.

2 Q. You have answered my previous question in saying that when the

3 investigator of the ICTY in Ljuboten interviewed you about the event,

4 your husband was together with you in his wheelchair; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, we both gave statements and signed

6 them.

7 Q. If in some of your statements it is not noted that your husband

8 was present during the interview, that must have been a mistake of the

9 persons who were writing that statement; is that correct?

10 A. No, he was writing. Nobody made any mistake.

11 Q. Okay. When you made the statement -- when you made the

12 statement, there was an interpreter for the Albanian language; is that

13 correct?

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask that the witness is

15 instructed not to speak simultaneously with the counsel. We have

16 difficulties.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I guess I was, but I have

18 forgotten.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. But you remember that you had made the statement on the same date

21 when a statement was given by your husband, and that you were together

22 all the time; is that correct?

23 A. All the time, yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Jusufi, I know that for you, as a mother, it is

25 very difficult to recall the events that you testify about, but I would

Page 432

1 like to ask you to still answer some questions that the learned

2 Prosecutor asked you about at the beginning of today's trial.

3 Is it correct that you have before, as today during your

4 testimony, have often answered that you can't remember everything and

5 that what your husband has stated is correct; is that so?

6 A. Ask my husband. Personally, I don't know. When he comes here to

7 testify, you can ask him. I did what I was supposed to do here.

8 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, besides the statement that you made in October of

9 2004, you have recently, in Ljuboten, on the 22nd of April of this year,

10 also made a statement; is that correct?

11 A. No, I didn't. There was nothing more to say.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will ask that the witness is

13 shown the English text, 1D4, 0016, 65 ter number 1D4.

14 Q. Although you, Mrs. Jusufi, can't read and write, can you please

15 confirm that on the bottom, you have also signed this statement? Is that

16 your signature?

17 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Here it reads that on the 22nd of April, 2007, you have had an

19 interview with the Prosecutor, Joanne Motoike, and that as you have

20 indicated, you have signed this statement. Do you remember now that you

21 have made that statement?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Tell me, please, is it correct that your husband was also present

24 when you were making this statement?

25 A. Yes, he was. Yes, he was.

Page 433

1 Q. And if by chance someone forgot to write that he was present as

2 well during your interview, that is not your mistake; is that correct?

3 A. No. My husband is an invalid.

4 Q. Yes, I know, and I do not wish to say anything bad about you or

5 your husband. I just wanted to know, when you have signed this statement

6 last month, you have stated that your husband was present while you were

7 making your statement?

8 A. I don't know. Maybe he was. I really don't know.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, could I indicate that when you

11 asked the witness to identify her statement in respect of the second

12 statement made this year, the document on the screen was still the first

13 statement made in 2004. On the screen now is the 2007 statement. I

14 think we'd better check that the witness accepts this to be also a

15 statement of hers.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your warning.

17 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, The Honours have already -- have just told us that

18 to have another look at the signature on the paper in front of you. Can

19 you see the text document in front of you?

20 A. Yes, I can see it.

21 Q. Please look at the bottom. Is that your signature at the bottom

22 of this document or this page?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Jusufi, at the question of the learned

25 colleague, you have said that at 7.30 in the morning, you have taken your

Page 434

1 husband into the house; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell us, Mrs. Jusufi, where did you leave your husband

4 in his wheelchair?

5 A. In the room, of course, inside, not outside.

6 Q. So if I understand this well, you have taken your husband into

7 the living room. Is that correct?

8 A. In a room. I took him to the room.

9 Q. Was in that room at that time -- was your relative Muzafer Jusufi

10 in the room at that time and yourself?

11 A. He was. He came to have a coffee with us.

12 Q. In the first statement that I have shown you and has the number

13 65 ter 1D1, on page 0003, and in the Macedonian version that is

14 page 0007, you have said:

15 "I put Elmaz into the other room below the staircase because I

16 thought that it is safer there."

17 Did you say that in that way?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. When the Prosecutor interviewed you on the 22nd of April, 2007,

20 that is number 65 ter 1D4, 0018, you have said in point 5:

21 "I was in a panic and I took my husband inside the house, into

22 the living room on the left-hand side from the entrance to the house."

23 Did you say that to the Prosecutor during the last month?

24 A. I don't know. I think in the right side, on the right side.

25 Q. Could you agree with me, Mrs. Jusufi, that these statements about

Page 435

1 the fact where you have taken your husband when you took him into

2 the house, significantly differ from what you have said in the first --

3 in the second statement and today before the Court.

4 A. I remember I took him to the room on the right side. I believe

5 they have made a mistake when recording it or writing down my words.

6 Q. Today, my learned colleague have asked you when you saw the

7 police officers, and then you testified that at 5.00 in the morning you

8 have only heard the voices in front of your house, coming from the

9 direction of the Orthodox Church, but that you have seen no one; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But in the first statement that has been showed you, and you

13 recognised your signature, that is number 65 ter 1D1, 0002, the

14 Macedonian version bearing the number 1D, 007, you have said that at 5.00

15 in the morning you had seen police in front of your house and that you

16 have also seen them at 7.30, when you were helping your husband to come

17 to the gate to your yard.

18 In your statement of April 22nd, 2007, that is, number 65 ter

19 1D4, 0017, you have stated that you have only seen the police officers at

20 5.00 in the morning and that at 7.30 you have only heard them, but you

21 have not seen them. Today, you said that you have never seen them.

22 Is it correct, Mrs. Jusufi, that this statement of yours

23 significantly differ whether and when you have seen the policemen?

24 A. No, it's not different. It is true, as I said, as I have seen

25 them. I saw -- I heard them, with my own ears, talking among themselves.

Page 436

1 I didn't see them when they were in the street, but I heard them talking.

2 Q. You have clarified that today, at the question of the learned

3 colleague, because you said that you could not see through the door and

4 the wall, through the gate and the wall. I would like to remind you that

5 in your -- in the first statement, ID 1002, and the Macedonian version

6 ID 0007, you have said: "Not only that I have seen the policemen, but we

7 have also --" you have also seen a car and trucks in the street. That is

8 written in paragraph 8?

9 A. I didn't see them outside, but there were policemen.

10 Q. And in the statement of April 22nd, 65 ter number 1D4, 0017, in

11 paragraph 2, last sentence, you have said:

12 "I've heard tanks and trucks, but I have not seen them."

13 I ask you, Mrs. Jusufi, is it correct if I say that your

14 statements about these facts are also significantly different?

15 A. No, it is not different. It is exactly as I said. I heard them

16 talking. I didn't say that I saw them in the street.

17 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, today you have, on the question of the learned

18 colleague, mentioned that Muzafer Jusufi was also in your house, a son of

19 the uncle of your husband?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes. Muzafer is our uncle's son.

23 Q. Tell me, please, Mrs. Jusufi, was anyone else in the house at

24 that moment?

25 A. No. I didn't understand it very well. Could you repeat it?

Page 437

1 Q. Was some of the relatives in the house, apart from

2 Muzafer Jusufi?

3 A. There wasn't.

4 Q. If I say to you, Mrs. Jusufi, that on April 22 of this year, when

5 giving the statement to the Prosecutor in Ljuboten, that is, 65 ter

6 1D4, 0018, paragraph 7, you have stated that in the house then there were

7 also Imret and Muzafer Jusufi, and they were in the room to the left

8 side, on the other side of the entry door --

9 A. It's wrong. It's a mistake. Only Muzafer was there.

10 Q. Do you want to say, Mrs. Jusufi, that the investigators have made

11 a mistake writing that Imret Jusufi was also in your house?

12 A. It has been recorded wrong. No, no -- or I may have misspoken.

13 He wasn't there. Muzafer was there. Maybe I misspoke, instead of saying

14 "Muzafer," I said "Imret," but there wasn't anyone else apart from

15 Muzafer.

16 Q. And the question of the learned colleague, you have said that you

17 have taken your husband into the house to make breakfast, but that you

18 haven't had breakfast?

19 A. No, we couldn't have breakfast.

20 Q. But if I say to you that in your first statement, 65 ter number

21 1D1, ID 0003, and Macedonian version 0007, paragraph 9, you have said

22 that you have taken your husband inside and that you have had breakfast,

23 then those two statements are different; is it true?

24 A. No, I said I took him inside in order for me to prepare

25 breakfast, but I never said that we did have breakfast. We couldn't have

Page 438

1 any breakfast.

2 Q. So if that was also written in the statement, then that is a

3 mistake of those who were writing that statement; is it so?

4 A. They have written it wrong. It must be a mistake.

5 Q. At the question of the learned colleague, you have said that you

6 have not prepared breakfast because the electricity ran out. Is that so?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. But in the statement of April 22, 2007, number ID4, 0018 -- yes,

9 0018, you have said that you did not have breakfast because you have

10 heard -- that you heard voices of policemen, and then in panic you have

11 taken your husband into the house?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And those two statements are different; is it so?

14 A. They are not different at all, not at all.

15 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, I will now, unfortunately, have to ask you a few

16 questions regarding the death of your son. Before that, please tell me,

17 do you know Fatmir Kamberi, the son of Reshat?

18 A. Yes, he's a co-villager and a neighbour of ours.

19 Q. Your son was in good relations with him, and there would be no

20 reason for him to say something that would not be true; is that correct?

21 A. He was a neighbour. What do you mean? I don't understand what

22 you are asking me about.

23 Q. Were Rami and Fatmir good neighbours and good friends?

24 A. They were neighbours. I don't know more than that. Just a

25 neighbour.

Page 439

1 Q. On the question of the learned colleague, you have said that on

2 Sunday, you have awakened at 5.00; is that correct? Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, because every Sunday, we wake up early to say the prayers.

4 Q. Is it correct that at that moment, you have gone out into the

5 yard alone, as you have testified in your previous statement?

6 A. Yes, yes. There wasn't anyone else in the yard.

7 Q. Could you tell us, at what time did your husband wake up, and

8 when was it when you assisted him to get out into the yard?

9 A. When he woke up, I assisted him. I took him out in the yard. I

10 don't know what time exactly it was. Maybe 5.00, 5.00 in the morning.

11 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, could you remember whether that was at the same time

12 when you also got out or was it later?

13 A. I took my husband and we went together outside because he was

14 tired of sitting all night and of staying inside the room. I wanted him

15 to get some fresh air.

16 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, did you sleep at all that night?

17 A. We didn't sleep.

18 Q. Did anyone come into your house during the night?

19 A. No, nobody came.

20 Q. Is it correct that your son slept in his room during the entire

21 night?

22 A. He slept in his own room, it is correct. I'm not lying here.

23 Q. When you woke up at 5.00, was your son still sleeping and there

24 was no one into your -- into your yard; is that so?

25 A. He was sleeping and there wasn't anyone in our yard.

Page 440

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

2 go to a closed session for a while because I would like to give -- to

3 point out a statement of one of the witnesses.


5 [Closed session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 441

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, I did not understand so very well everything that

4 you have answered to the learned colleague about when and how --

5 A. [Previous translation continues]... wasn't there. Don't ask me

6 any more, please. I cannot answer your questions. I gave all the

7 answers I had to give.

8 JUDGE PARKER: You are doing very well, Mrs. Jashari [sic], thank

9 you very much. There will not be many more, so carry on, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I feel tired, Your Honour, I feel

11 very tired.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I think in that case, then, we'll have a little

13 break now. And, again, that break must be for half an hour and we --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to go home.

15 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues]... at five minutes

16 to 6.00. We will finish your evidence in a little after the break.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to go home, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE PARKER: That won't be possible right now, but we will not

19 be long with you after the break.

20 Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've said everything I wanted to

22 say. There is nothing else left.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.26 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

25 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, Your Honour.

Page 442

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Motoike.

2 MS. MOTOIKE: Just a brief issue has actually been brought to our

3 attention.

4 If perhaps the Court could advise Mrs. Jusufi not to answer the

5 questions given to her by Ms. Residovic until the translation is

6 completely finished. That way, our kind interpreters could translate

7 everything that's being said.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I fully appreciate that.

9 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

10 JUDGE PARKER: The problem is that I think the technology in this

11 room is something that the witness is not very well equipped to deal

12 with. To give her extra things to think about may be counter-productive.

13 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE PARKER: I appreciate the problem.

15 We hope to be very short in completing your evidence, so I hope

16 you can bear with us while that is done.

17 Would you please try just to listen to the question fully, until

18 it is finished. It often helps if you can do that. And then we'll be

19 able to continue. Thank you.

20 Yes, Ms. Residovic.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, I hope that you managed to get some rest.

23 When the learned colleague Prosecutor asked you, on the page 26,

24 line 19 and 20, you said that your son, Rami, was asleep, and then on the

25 page 27, you also said that when you went in to make the breakfast, that

Page 443

1 he was still asleep. And on the same page, in line 14 to 18, you said

2 that he had woken up when the door was opened.

3 Do you remember that, that you had stated so today?

4 A. It is the way I described it. He was asleep.

5 Q. Tell me, Mrs. Jusufi, who had woken your son up or what has woken

6 him up?

7 A. When the blast was heard at the front gate, he woke up. It was

8 7.30, about 7.30 in the morning. He did not wake up earlier than that.

9 The blast was very powerful. The door was broken down, and he woke up.

10 He went to the entrance door, and they killed him.

11 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mrs. Jusufi, at the moment when your son

12 woke up, what were the clothes that your son had on?

13 A. You know that when people go to sleep, they wear pyjamas. He was

14 in his pyjamas when he went to the entrance door.

15 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, when he was hit, can you tell us, what was your son

16 wearing? Have you seen him?

17 A. He was wearing a T-shirt and jeans.

18 Q. If I were, Mrs. Jusufi, to tell you that in your first statement,

19 where you've recognised your signature, 65 ter number 1D1, page 0003,

20 Macedonian version 0008, in relation to your son, paragraph 11, you

21 stated:

22 "I woke him up because of the blast at the front gate. He was

23 wearing pyjamas --"

24 A. Yes, I woke him up.

25 Q. "-- he got up and went to close the door."

Page 444

1 A. No. Maybe it's not recorded correctly. He went to close the

2 entrance door. He was wearing pyjamas while he was asleep. He put on

3 his clothes very quickly, and he went to close the door.

4 Q. Regarding this very fact, Mrs. Jusufi, in your next statement,

5 65 ter number 1D4, 0018, paragraph 7, you have stated:

6 "My son was not wearing his pyjamas, but he changed his attire,

7 and then he left the room. When my son was changing clothes, I was

8 standing in the living room."

9 A. That's not correct. While he was asleep, he was in his pyjamas.

10 When I woke him up, he dressed up and he went to the entrance door to

11 close it, and they were already in the yard and they killed him. This is

12 what happened.

13 Q. Later, you stated:

14 "After my son put his clothes on, my husband and I joined two of

15 our neighbours in the room on the left side from the front door to the

16 house, immediately across from the front door."

17 Regarding that same event, in your first statement, 65 ter

18 number 1D1, ID 0003, Macedonian version 0008, in the paragraph 12 you

19 stated:

20 "My son went out to close the door."

21 And then in the paragraph 13, you indicated:

22 "At that moment -- at that moment, I was standing close to my

23 husband. We were both of us in the corridor --"

24 A. It's a mistake, it's a mistake.

25 Q. And then in the paragraph 14, you stated:

Page 445

1 "My son was running from the bedroom to the door. He was

2 standing with his full body exposed to the front door."

3 A. No, no, it's a mistake. What I've already stated earlier, that's

4 correct. Everything that you're reading now is a mistake.

5 Q. So, Mrs. Jusufi, with regards to the persons present and with

6 regards to the way in which your son woke up --

7 A. There was nobody there.

8 Q. -- and with regards to the clothes that he was wearing,

9 everything has been entered correctly into your previous statements --

10 recorded incorrectly; is that what you're trying to say?

11 A. No. What I've stated in my statement is correct, and what you

12 are reading now is a mistake. I don't know who is responsible for that

13 mistake.

14 Q. You have also, Mrs. Jusufi, in your previous statement about this

15 event, paragraph 14 and paragraph 15, that is, 65 ter number 1D4,

16 ID 0018, and after that ID 0019, you have described the event of the

17 killing of your son and you have stated:

18 "At that moment, I've heard rifles. My son was stricken down.

19 He was still holding the door, and the door was almost closed when he

20 fell down."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in the statement of the 22nd of April, 1D4, ID 0018, in the

23 paragraph 8 you stated:

24 "The front door to the house was open. We heard shooting. My

25 husband was at that moment near the door, in his wheelchair. I was

Page 446

1 standing beside him. My son jumped up from the sofa --"

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. "-- passed my husband by and myself --"

4 A. He passed him by and went to the entrance door, yes, yes, that's

5 correct, to close the door, because the door was wide open. And as soon

6 as he got to the entrance door, they killed him.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Ms. Residovic said before, "... with the

8 intention to close the entrance door."

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. But, Mrs. Jusufi, these statements contradict what you have

11 testified today under oath, stating that you were in the room?

12 A. Everything I've stated is correct, but you have recorded things

13 erroneously. We went to the room with my husband. Where else were we

14 supposed to go? We couldn't stay in the yard. What you have noted down

15 is a mistake.

16 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, to the question of the learned colleague, you have

17 stated that as soon as your -- your son was hit, you fainted. Have you

18 stated this today?

19 A. Yes. Yes, when my son fell down, I lost consciousness. Then I

20 was completely lost. We took him inside the room. I was completely lost

21 after that. This is how it was.

22 Q. In your --

23 A. You're mixing things up.

24 Q. In your previous statement, Mrs. Jusufi, 1D1, 004 --

25 A. No, no, you're mixing things up here.

Page 447

1 Q. -- Macedonian version 0008, paragraph 22, you have stated:

2 "When the men disappeared from the door, we looked at our son.

3 He was bleeding from the two bullet wounds on his back."

4 So your statement today, that you have fainted, does not

5 correspond to what you have stated before; is that so?

6 A. It's not different. As soon as I saw my son in that state, I was

7 completely lost. You would do the same if you saw your own son.

8 Q. Tell me, Mrs. Jusufi, who and when has moved your son from the

9 corridor --

10 A. I don't know what else to say.

11 Q. -- the corridor next to the entrance into the room?

12 A. When the police left, I regained consciousness, and with Muzafer

13 then, we put him inside the room.

14 Q. If I were to tell you that the bleeding from the wounds, from the

15 bullet wounds, was strong, you would agree with this?

16 A. Of course he was bleeding heavily.

17 Q. All his clothes were blood-stained; is that so?

18 A. Yes. We tried to -- we took the sheet and we tried to tie his

19 wound.

20 Q. His T-shirt and his trousers were completely blood-stained; is

21 that so?

22 A. Yes, yes. You saw it.

23 Q. When your son -- when he woke up, were his trousers on, as you

24 have stated today, he buttoned up his trousers, and nobody pulled the

25 trousers off him; is that what you're trying to say?

Page 448

1 A. We didn't take off his trousers. We didn't at all. What do you

2 mean, take off his trousers?

3 Q. To the question of our learned colleague, you have stated that

4 inside the house you remained for another 12 hours; is that so?

5 A. I didn't go out at all. Where was I supposed to go?

6 Q. And nobody came during that time into your house; is that correct

7 as well?

8 A. No, nobody.

9 Q. Can you tell us, how soon did your son die?

10 A. I don't know to this day, because even when you mention it now, I

11 feel very weak. I don't know how long; 15 minutes, 20 minutes. I wasn't

12 looking at the watch at that time.

13 Q. Is it correct, Mrs. Jusufi, that you and your husband couldn't

14 call anyone, since your phone stopped working; is that so?

15 A. No, we couldn't call anyone because we didn't have a phone.

16 Q. So nobody was able to come and help you; is that so?

17 A. Well, there was no way they could come and help us. There was no

18 way they could pass through those bullets. They were shooting from the

19 terrace. All this noise was coming from the terrace, the noise of the

20 bullets. We couldn't go outside at all.

21 Q. Is it correct that when darkness fell outside, that then your

22 neighbours and relatives came, and that then they moved the body of your

23 son inside the house of your daughter in the neighbourhood Durmisina; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes. Yes, at 2.00 in the morning, 1.00 or 2.00. I don't know, I

Page 449

1 didn't look at the watch. It was dark. I didn't have any light. And

2 please don't ask me any more questions. I am tired. I think this is it.

3 Q. Just a few more, please.

4 A. Please don't ask me any more questions, because I will faint now.

5 I can't go on.

6 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mrs. Jusufi, if you just settle for a

7 moment, there are very few questions left. I think it won't be of any

8 value to you -- I don't think it will be of any value to you to come back

9 tomorrow, which is what we would have to do. You really want to be

10 finished with this. We all appreciate that. So --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not coming back tomorrow.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we'll finish tonight, then, yes.

13 Yes, Ms. Residovic. I think you must be near your end.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, let me just ask you: Is it correct that nobody took

16 a picture of your son when in your presence?

17 A. What you're saying doesn't make sense.

18 Q. I would just wish at the end to ask you, Mrs. Jusufi: In the

19 questions that I've asked you, you will agree with me that regarding

20 numerous issues, you have given different statements in your previous

21 statements and in the testimony today? Have you observed this?

22 A. As I said, even if I live for another 300 years, I will never

23 forget what happened, and of course I will not change what I've already

24 stated. I'm a 70-year-old woman, 60, 70 years old.

25 Q. If I were to tell you, Mrs. Jusufi, that you have seen your

Page 450

1 deceased son for the first time when he was brought into the house of

2 your daughter in the Durmisina neighbourhood, considering that you are

3 testifying under oath, you would certainly agree that that was -- were

4 correct?

5 A. I didn't see him killed there in her house. He was killed in my

6 own house. He wasn't killed in Durmisina house; he was killed at the

7 entrance door.

8 Q. Yes, but you have seen him when he was brought already dead in

9 the house of your daughter?

10 A. I saw him in my own house. We took his body to my daughter's

11 house in -- in the early morning hours, 1.00 or 2.00. But when he died,

12 he was in my own house. I don't know why this has been recorded in this

13 way.

14 Q. And if I were again to tell you, Mrs. Jusufi, that you went to

15 the house of your daughter on Saturday evening, together with your

16 daughter-in-law and your grandchildren --

17 A. No, no, I didn't go there on Saturday. That's not correct. I

18 didn't go to my daughter's house on Saturday. I was in my own house.

19 What you're saying is a mistake. You're putting things the way you like

20 them.

21 Q. And at the end, Mrs. Jusufi, in your house in the village of

22 Ljuboten, to that house you have returned only a month later when your

23 son was buried again in the graveyard in Ljuboten; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. Well, we were afraid to take him to the graveyard. There

25 was no place we could take him to. There was shooting. Even when we

Page 451

1 returned, the shooting continued.

2 Q. Mrs. Jusufi, I'm just finishing, but maybe you failed to

3 understand me properly. Is it correct that when you went to your

4 daughter's house in the Durmisina neighbourhood, you and your husband did

5 not return to Ljuboten, to your own house, for a month's time, almost up

6 until the time when your son was transferred to the graveyard in

7 Ljuboten; is that correct?

8 A. Three weeks, about a month. I don't know, I forgot, but my

9 husband knows these things better.

10 Q. Okay. Nobody was living in your -- residing in your house during

11 that time?

12 A. No, whoever could went inside and outside my house.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

14 Mrs. Jusufi, for making the effort to answer my questions.

15 Thank you, Your Honour. I have finished.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have changed my words. You

18 have mixed things up.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we'll see if that's correct.

20 Mr. Apostolski, is there anything you wish to ask?

21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, although the

22 examination by my colleague, Edina Residovic, was quite exhaustive, I

23 have prepared many questions to ask this witness. I will try not to

24 repeat from what my colleague, Edina Residovic, stated.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Well, Mr. Apostolski, you certainly may ask

Page 452

1 questions, but I hope they are relevant to what are the real issues in

2 the case. Unfortunately, all counsel so far today have asked questions

3 that go outside the important issues. We have spent a lot of time. We

4 have tired the witness, and we are going to lose time if we move at this

5 pace. So if you please could try and concentrate on the important

6 issues, as far as concerns your client.

7 Thank you.

8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to be

9 as precise and as concise as possible.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Jusufi. I am

12 Antonio Apostolski, Defence attorney of Johan Tarculovski. I regret

13 about the loss of your son. I know it must be difficult for you to speak

14 about those moments once again, but you have to have an understanding

15 that I have to ask you several questions in respect to the event.

16 Are you prepared -- so I would start with the questions --

17 A. I'm really tired, and I already said what I knew. You can go on

18 speaking, but --

19 JUDGE PARKER: You're being very brave, Mrs. Jusufi, and we're

20 very grateful, but I know that you will find it in you to just deal with

21 a few more questions and then we can, hopefully, allow you to finish and

22 go.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't have anything else

24 to add to what I already said, not today or tomorrow. When my husband

25 comes, you can ask him more questions, but this is all I know.

Page 453

1 JUDGE PARKER: Your evidence is very valuable, and the point is

2 that there are many things about which you have been able to help us that

3 your husband might not be able to. So instead of us just talking, I

4 think we'll ask Mr. Apostolski -- would you please listen to me,

5 Mrs. Jusufi? I know it's hard for you, but the option is this: Either

6 you have to listen and answer questions tonight, or even though you may

7 not like it, you will need to come back and go through more tomorrow.

8 And I think that will be worse for you than if we can finish tonight.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I'm not coming back. My

10 husband is waiting outside. He can come and testify, but I want to go.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It's your evidence we need, Mrs. Jusufi.

12 So, Mr. Apostolski, would you just ask your important questions.

13 Thank you.


15 Q. [Interpretation] Is the statement that you gave today upon the

16 approval of your husband?

17 A. My husband's statement is a separate one. He will come and

18 testify for himself.

19 Q. Do you have water in your house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you have water inside your house or is the water in the yard?

22 A. In the yard.

23 Q. Did any of your -- does any member of your family possess a

24 mobile phone?

25 A. Maybe they do. I don't know.

Page 454

1 Q. Did your son have a mobile phone during the event?

2 A. I don't know. I forgot. I don't know whether he had or he

3 didn't.

4 Q. Do you have a basement in your house?

5 A. No, we don't have a basement. We don't.

6 Q. Do you have a garage in your house?

7 A. Yes, we were in the process of building that garage. We still

8 had not covered it.

9 Q. I would like to ask you about Friday, August 10, 2001. Was

10 anything unusual happening?

11 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

12 Q. Were you hearing shootings of any kind? We are talking about two

13 days before the event.

14 A. Yes, we could hear shootings. That's correct.

15 Q. Could the shootings be seen from your yard?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where were you on Friday?

18 A. At home.

19 Q. Where was your husband on Friday, August 10?

20 A. At home, at home. Where can he go in a wheelchair?

21 Q. Was he at home all the time? Was he inside the home or in the

22 yard?

23 A. I wouldn't know. I can't remember that. It was a long time ago.

24 I can't remember what I had for lunch today.

25 Q. Is the statement that you have given today to my learned

Page 455

1 colleague, the Prosecutor, is based on your memories, on your

2 recollections?

3 A. This is what I know. I remember the day and I will never forget

4 it. Even if I lived 300 years, I will never forget that day.

5 Q. Do you know that upon your memory or from the tellings of someone

6 else?

7 A. No, on my own memory. Nobody told me anything. I know, for

8 myself, what happened.

9 Q. What was your -- where was your son, Rami Jusufi, on August 10,

10 2001?

11 A. I don't know. Maybe he was at the watermelon field, maybe he was

12 in the market selling watermelons. I really don't know. I can't recall.

13 Q. When did you go to bed on Friday evening, August 10, 2001?

14 A. I don't know. I went to sleep in my own home.

15 Q. On Saturday, August 11, 2001, could shootings from fire-arms be

16 heard still?

17 A. I don't think -- I don't think they shot on that day.

18 Q. Who was in your house on Saturday morning?

19 A. No one. I didn't have any guests.

20 Q. Could you remember where your son was, where your son Rami was on

21 Saturday?

22 A. He was in the market to sell watermelon.

23 Q. When did he return; could you remember that?

24 A. I don't remember at what time. I didn't look at the watch.

25 After selling the watermelons, he returned. I don't know the exact hour.

Page 456

1 Q. Was that during the day or after dark?

2 A. During the day. They could hardly pass through the check-points.

3 Q. Where was your younger son, Salahedin?

4 A. At home.

5 Q. Was he in your house?

6 A. No, in his own house.

7 Q. Did he stay overnight in his house?

8 A. Which of my sons?

9 Q. Salahedin.

10 A. He slept in his own house. He had his own house.

11 Q. Do you want to confirm that Salahedin was at home on Saturday

12 night?

13 A. He wasn't at my -- at our home. He was in his own house. In his

14 own house he was with his own -- with his own kids.

15 Q. Did anyone come in your house on Saturday evening?

16 A. No, no one.

17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

18 ask if we could go on to a closed session, because I will mention a name

19 of a witness that will be heard later on. So in order to -- who might

20 ask for protection by the Prosecutor --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please stop asking me. I want to

22 go. All your questions seem irrelevant to me. I'm not a soldier. They

23 might know what you're asking me.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski wants to go into private.

25 [Private session]

Page 457











11 Pages 457-458 redacted. Private session.















Page 459

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session now.

4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

5 Q. What room did your husband sleep in?

6 A. In the same room with our son.

7 Q. Where did you sleep?

8 A. I, too, slept in the same room. The three of us slept in the

9 same room. We didn't sleep outside in the yard.

10 Q. Is it correct that you all slept in one room?

11 A. Yes. The daughter-in-law wasn't there, so we slept in the same

12 room.

13 Q. When your daughter-in-law is at home, where does she sleep?

14 A. In their room.

15 Q. Which one is their room?

16 A. It was upstairs. You want me to tell you the exact place where

17 they sleep?

18 Q. I want you to tell me only what is the room that your son sleeps

19 in with his wife?

20 A. Why should you know? Is it necessary for you to know that? They

21 have their own room.

22 Q. Is it correct --

23 A. They have their own separate room. Please don't ask me questions

24 which make no sense at all.

25 Q. Is it correct that -- is it correct that your son, together with

Page 460

1 his wife, are sleeping on the upper floor, up on the -- up the staircase?

2 A. Yes, this is where their room is, the upper floor.

3 Q. Is it correct that your son usually sleeps on the upper floor?

4 A. Yes, he usually sleeps upstairs with his wife.

5 Q. Where was his wife on Saturday evening?

6 A. She was afraid and scared from the shots, and she left and went

7 to stay with my daughter.

8 Q. Do you usually close the gate of the yard at night? "Lock it."

9 I apologise.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you lock the gate on Saturday night?

12 A. Yes. Before going to sleep every night, we locked the gate.

13 Q. Who locks the door at night -- the gate at night?

14 A. Whoever can. We don't have a certain person doing that.

15 Q. What is your gate being locked with?

16 A. Like everybody else, we use the same thing.

17 Q. I would like you to answer to me correctly. What exactly do you

18 lock your gate with?

19 A. With a lock, of course. I suppose you do the same. With a key.

20 Q. Except for the key, is there any other locking mechanism for the

21 gate?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you say that that is a mechanism made of iron with a rod?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In the statement of October 3, 2004, 2D1, page 2, paragraph 5,

Page 461

1 you say that at 5.00, you saw police in front of your house; is that

2 correct?

3 A. We saw them going towards the church. We heard them talking from

4 inside the house, so we went inside and heard them talking outside.

5 Q. You previously stated, upon the examination of my learned

6 colleague, the Prosecutor, that you have only heard them. Now you are

7 saying that you have seen them as well?

8 A. I heard them talking. I didn't see them with my own eyes. I

9 told you, I didn't go outside, I mean out of the gate in the street. We

10 were inside the yard.

11 Q. Let me remind you that in the statement given on October 3, 2004,

12 2D1, page 2, paragraph 8, you say that you have seen cars and trucks on

13 the street. Is that correct?

14 A. Don't keep telling me, "You've said this," "You've said that." I

15 don't want to hear that. I'm telling you, we heard them talk. We didn't

16 see them. The mountain was full of tanks, tanks with cannons.

17 Q. Could you say where, approximately, those tanks were with the

18 cannons?

19 A. On the mountain. All of us saw them.

20 Q. Did you personally see those tanks?

21 A. Yes. You can see the tanks from the yard.

22 Q. Although my colleague didn't ask this question, I would like to

23 repeat it because I want to ask -- to accomplish something with it. Who

24 was --

25 A. I am tired, I am tired.

Page 462

1 Q. I would like to ask you again, who was in your house together

2 with you on Sunday morning?

3 A. No one was there, only Muzafer. Nobody else. What I know, I

4 know. You are asking me again and again and again who was there, who was

5 there. It doesn't make sense. I'm ready to leave now.

6 Q. You have stated that the Kamberi family is your -- are your

7 neighbours? Are you aware of the name "Fatmir Kamberi"?

8 A. Of course I know them. They are my neighbours.

9 Q. Have you seen Fatmir Kamberi during the weekend between August 10

10 and August 12, 2001?

11 A. No, I didn't see him.

12 Q. Since my colleague, Edina, had quite comprehensive -- asked quite

13 comprehensive questions regarding the clothes he was wearing, I would

14 like to ask you: What was the colour of your son's pyjamas?

15 A. Don't ask me any more, please. His pyjamas were white. He took

16 off the pyjamas and put on some clothes. You want to know what colour

17 his pyjamas were? This is irrelevant.

18 Q. Where were you standing when your son was hit?

19 A. What do you mean, armed? He wasn't armed. In the room, we were

20 in the room.

21 Q. I did not mention that he was armed. I didn't say he was armed.

22 I just asked you: Where were you standing, precisely, when your son was

23 hit?

24 A. I'm telling you, we were in the room. I'm repeating it. In the

25 room. The son left the room, and then he was killed at the door.

Page 463

1 Q. What was the position of your son in relation to the door?

2 A. About to open the door.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Close the door, correction.

4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Was your son turned towards the door with his stomach?

6 A. I saw him falling down on the ground -- on the floor. I didn't

7 pay attention to the position he was in at that moment. I just saw him

8 falling down. As soon as I saw him, I fainted.

9 Please don't ask me such questions any more.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] The interpretation of the

11 question is not correct. Just a moment. It should be: "Where was your

12 son turned at --"

13 A. I didn't see him, in what position he was.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "Where was your son

15 facing?"

16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I would like to ask you several difficult questions for you, but

18 I have to ask them.

19 A. I don't want to hear any more questions.

20 JUDGE PARKER: The time has come when we must finish for the day.

21 It is necessary for the accused to be back --

22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mrs. Jusufi. Mrs. Jusufi --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My husband is waiting outside and

25 is tired.

Page 464

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We are all tired, but I am sure you

2 are more tired than most of us, and we are very sorry for that.

3 Mr. Apostolski, we must finish at 7.00.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think you are sorry, since

5 you are keeping me here.

6 JUDGE PARKER: That is what is involved, madam.

7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] It is 7.00 now. Will I be able

8 to continue with my questions tomorrow, Your Honours?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not coming here anymore.

10 I'm not going to come here anymore. You are mixing up questions, asking

11 me the same things, asking me the same questions about the same thing, so

12 please don't ask me anymore.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike, do you have any re-examination?

14 MS. MOTOIKE: I have maybe three questions, Your Honour.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no more questions.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be necessary, then, for the evidence to

17 continue tomorrow --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, I don't want any more

19 questions.

20 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues]... as well, as you

21 know, yes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not coming tomorrow. My

23 husband is outside. Why did you bring him here?

24 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, the Prosecution could forego the

25 questions on redirect, if that would mean Mrs. Jusufi would finish today.

Page 465


2 Mr. Apostolski, you were going to move to some different area --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm finished, I'm finished. Don't

4 ask me any more questions. I don't want to hear any more questions.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Are you going to go over the ground that has

6 already been covered by Ms. Residovic?

7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would have a

8 few more questions that have not been covered by Mrs. -- by my colleague,

9 Edina Residovic. There are only a few questions.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No more questions.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We must adjourn now for the evening. The evidence

12 will continue tomorrow at 2.15, and following this witness will be the

13 evidence of her husband.

14 We want to thank you very much for the help you've tried to give

15 us today, Mrs. Jusufi. We know it's very hard for you, and we adjourn

16 now until tomorrow.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7:03 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of May,

19 2007, at 2.15 p.m.