1 Tuesday, 8 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 The affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence,
8 Mrs. Jusufi, still applies.
9 Now, Mr. Apostolski, I believe you have still some questions to
10 finish. Thank you.
11 WITNESS: ZENEP JUSUFI [Resumed]
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honour. I would
13 like to continue with a few more questions, and I would comprise four
14 topics with them.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski (Continued):
16 Q. Were you all the time besides your son after he was injured?
17 JUDGE PARKER: I think it needs to become a little more clear,
18 Mr. Apostolski, if you would like Ms. Jusufi to answer.
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters couldn't hear.
20 JUDGE PARKER: You were asked whether you were with your son all
21 the time after he was injured until he died.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I was.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Who were the others, beside him, from the moment of his injury
1 until his death?
2 A. Myself, my husband and the -- the uncle's son, Muzafer.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to speak closer to
4 the microphone, please.
5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You stated yesterday that when your son was injured, you
7 fainted. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, I fainted.
9 Q. When you regained consciousness, you saw that your son was
10 bleeding heavily; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. You have stated that after 15 to 20 minutes after his injury,
13 your son died when you were trying to bandage his wound. Is that
15 A. I took a sheet to tie his wound, but then he died. He died very
17 Q. Whether within this period between the injury and his death, you
18 called someone?
19 A. No. Who should I call? I didn't have a telephone.
20 Q. Has your husband called someone?
21 A. But we didn't have a telephone.
22 Q. Does it mean that your husband never called anyone?
23 A. He didn't, because as I said, we did not have a phone.
24 Q. Has your son phoned someone?
25 A. No. He died. He died after a short while. He couldn't have
1 called anyone.
2 Q. You stated that at the moment of the injury, in the house there
3 were you, Muzafer and your husband, Elmaz; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Has your son spoken with someone else, apart from the three of
6 you, inside the house?
7 A. No.
8 Q. It means that he was not able to talk because his wound was
9 heavy; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So your son was not able to phone anyone on the phone?
12 A. No, he wasn't.
13 Q. Are you familiar with the name Fatmir Ademi?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Let me recall you. He's an MP in the Assembly of the Republic of
16 Macedonia, and he safeguards the interests of the Albanians in Macedonia.
17 A. I don't know. I don't know him.
18 Q. Do you think that he would state anything incorrect regarding the
19 Ljuboten case, considering that he's an MP?
20 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour --
21 JUDGE PARKER: Without having to hear you, Ms. Motoike, that's
22 really not a question anybody can answer, Mr. Apostolski. You might ask
23 whether you would accept my word because I'm a judge. I think you see
24 the point.
25 So you needn't bother to answer that, Mrs. Jusufi.
1 Carry on, Mr. Apostolski.
2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I would like to move for a
3 closed session for a moment, since I will read from a statement of a
4 witness that might be heard before this Tribunal.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
6 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Since they were his cousins, they had very good relations with
21 Rami and had contacts with him; is that correct?
22 A. I didn't hear anything about that. I know that it's his brother.
23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we now move to
24 a closed session, since there is a statement?
25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I will now read from the
2 statement of the witness Xhevdet Jusufovski.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.
4 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You have stated that on the evening after the event, you have
10 left the house; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You have stated that after approximately three weeks, you
13 returned to the house; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You have stated that your house was damaged; is that correct?
16 A. That's correct. It was riddled with bullets.
17 Q. When was it for the first time that you cleaned your house from
18 the bullets?
19 A. I don't -- I don't know. When we came back. I don't know the
21 Q. When did you dispose of the ammunition, and when -- where did you
22 dispose of the ammunition and when?
23 A. I don't know when we disposed of it and where. The garbage.
24 Q. Do you have a bathroom in your house?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You stated yesterday that you didn't have any running water in
2 your house; is that correct?
3 A. On that day, we didn't have running water. We had -- but we did
4 have water outside.
5 Q. Have the Macedonian security forces entered the house?
6 A. Not inside the house. They came to the gate, the entrance door.
7 Q. But you were injured by some of the security forces?
8 A. I didn't hear your question. No, I wasn't. I was inside.
9 Q. Has anyone from the security forces spoken to you?
10 A. I didn't go out. I stayed inside the house. I hid in a corner.
11 Elmaz, that is my husband, knows.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. In line 4 -- 14 --
13 in line 4, "But you were injured by some of the security forces," it
14 should be "Were you injured by some of the security forces?"
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You stated yesterday when your son died in the house, there were
18 only you, your husband and Muzafer; is that correct?
19 A. That's correct. But you are asking me again and again for the
20 same thing.
21 Q. Until the darkness fell. Until darkness fell, nobody came to
22 your house; is that correct?
23 A. Nobody came, that's correct.
24 Q. You have stated that when darkness fell, your neighbours and
25 relatives came and moved the body of your son into your daughter's house;
1 is that correct?
2 A. They came and took his body at 2.00 in the morning. Maybe it was
3 1.00. I don't know, because it was dark. This is correct.
4 Q. So you could agree with me that this occurred at 2.00 after
5 midnight; is that correct?
6 A. I didn't look at the clock, because I didn't have electricity.
7 It was only dark, it was very dark, so I can't give you a precise time.
8 And I didn't even have the -- it didn't even occur to me to look at the
10 Q. Now, I regret, but I must show to you once again the photograph
11 of your deceased son at the moment of his death, so I would like to ask
12 the usher to show the picture 65 ter 608, ERN 0501-6263.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Is that tab 1, Exhibit P4?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's my son.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
17 Q. This photograph was taken -- this photograph was taken at the
18 moment after the death of your son; is that correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. The photograph was taken inside your house; is that correct?
21 A. I don't know. I don't remember. My husband knows better. I
22 think he was photographed the next day.
23 Q. Was this photograph taken by your husband or not, or was it taken
24 by you?
25 A. It was taken by the hodxa, the Muslim priest, on the next day.
1 Q. Does that mean that this photograph was taken inside your
2 daughter's house; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you now --
5 that's all, Your Honour. I don't have any further questions.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.
7 Ms. Motoike, are there any further questions?
8 MS. MOTOIKE: No, thank you.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 Mrs. Jusufi, you'll be very pleased to know that that is the end
11 of the questions for you. We want to thank you for your assistance. We
12 know it's a very hard time for you. We want to thank you for your
13 trouble in coming to The Hague. And the Court Officer will now take you
14 out of the courtroom.
15 So thank you indeed.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has
19 shown the witness to document 65 ter number 1D1, that was her statement
20 of 3rd of October, 2004, and 65 ter number 1D4, the addition to the
21 statement of Mrs. Jusufi of 22nd of April, 2007. Your Honour, the
22 Defence moves that just for the purposes of discreditation of this
23 witness, these documents are accepted as evidence of the Defence.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike.
25 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, if I may be heard briefly?
1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
2 MS. MOTOIKE: My understanding is that the normal practice at
3 this Tribunal is that the record is perhaps complete once the witness has
4 testified, and on cross-examination is then confronted with the
5 inconsistencies in any written statements given by the witness, and then
6 that -- those inconsistencies then are recorded into the proceedings for
7 the trial, and so then admission of the statements that the Defence at
8 this time wishes to seek to admit would perhaps clutter the record when
9 the inconsistencies that have already been addressed have been read into
10 the record and addressed by the witness.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 Anything to submit concerning that, Ms. Residovic?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the jurisprudence of
14 this Tribunal testifies about numerous cases where despite the fact that
15 the witness was shown some contradictions in their statements, the Court
16 would admit, for the purpose of discrediting the witness, also their
17 previous statements.
18 At this moment, I could not indicate all the other cases, but I
19 have had many such cases in the cases of Celebic and Hasan Ricen [phoen]
20 Kubura. I could not quote now all the remaining jurisprudence in this
21 area, so we would like to stay with the motion that we have made.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
23 The normal position under the jurisprudence of the Tribunal is
24 that which has been indicated by Ms. Motoike. There are situations
25 where, as a typical example, the extent of the differences between the
1 oral evidence and the previous statement is so considerable or where the
2 context of the full previous statement is important to appreciate the
3 difference, that it becomes of value to actually receive the statement as
4 an exhibit after it has been cross-examined on.
5 But in the Chamber's view, this is not such a case.
6 Ms. Residovic was careful to put to the witness very distinctly each of
7 the material points of difference between a previous statement and the
8 present oral testimony of the witness, so that the record very adequately
9 identifies all the material differences between the oral evidence here
10 and the previous statements of the witness.
11 So we would not receive those previous statements as an exhibit.
12 The next witness.
13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls
14 Mr. Elmaz Jusufi --
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.
16 MR. SAXON: -- who will be testifying pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
17 Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness, perhaps to
18 speed things up a little bit, I might seek the assistance of one of my
19 learned colleagues. We have brought some hard copies of the -- of the
20 exhibits that will be shown to this witness, because as good, nervous
21 lawyers that we are, we were afraid that the e-court system would not
22 function 100 per cent. So they had been prepared over the weekend. And
23 we also brought some copies of the ...
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, Mr. Jusufi.
1 Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth,
2 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, with your leave, I
4 would like to greet all of you before we begin.
5 Good afternoon, Your Honours of the Hague Tribunal. I solemnly
6 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
7 truth. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to come here and
8 testify before this Tribunal. Thank you very much.
9 WITNESS: ELMAZ JUSUFI
10 [The witness answers through interpreter]
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, indeed.
12 Now, Mr. Saxon has some questions first for you.
13 Mr. Saxon.
14 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could impose for a
15 moment more on the goodwill of our usher, first of all we have some
16 copies of the exhibits which I intend to show to the witness today, and
17 perhaps if these could be distributed to the Judges, we'd be grateful.
18 And if perhaps a copy -- and we also have some copies of the
19 consolidated 92 ter statement that was produced for this witness, as well
20 as a copy of a document titled "Addenda and Corrections" to that
21 statement. And I'd like, if possible, could a copy of these two
22 documents be placed on the table in front of the witness, so that he can
23 see it easily. And if the Judges would like hard copies as well, we can
24 provide them.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 Examination by Mr. Saxon:
2 Q. Sir, good afternoon.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. Is your name Elmaz Jusufi?
5 A. Yes, Elmaz Jusufov.
6 Q. And is the -- is your name -- is your surname, in the Albanian
7 language, "Jusufi"?
8 A. In the Albanian language, it is "Jusufi," and in the Macedonian,
10 Q. And are you the husband of Mrs. Zenep Jusufi?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And is your ethnicity Albanian?
13 A. Yes, Albanian.
14 Q. And do you live in the village of Ljuboten in Macedonia?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'd like you to please focus on a day in April of this year, just
17 two or three weeks ago, when some members of the office that I work for
18 came to your village and spoke to you.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you recall that those people --
21 A. I do recall.
22 Q. Yes. Mr. Jusufi, just listen to my questions, please, and focus
23 on them and answer them, and then, please, I will ask the next question.
24 All right?
25 In the past, you had given a couple of statements to members of
1 my office; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in April of this year, you signed another statement that
4 contained parts of those earlier statements; is that right?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 MR. SAXON: I'm wondering perhaps if the usher could place a copy
7 of this statement on the ELMO. English. Thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Jusufi, could you please -- I'm wondering if the person in
9 the audio-visual booth could pull back a little bit, please, so that we
10 can see the signature at the bottom. Thank you.
11 Mr. Jusufi, is that your signature at the bottom of the page?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And did you sign every page of this document?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can we turn to the last page, please. I'm sorry, Mr. Usher. Can
16 we turn to the page before that? There's a paragraph on that last page
17 that has the title in English "Witness Acknowledgment." Is that your
18 signature on that page?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. SAXON: Thank you. Mr. Usher, if you could remove that
21 statement from the ELMO, please.
22 Q. Mr. Jusufi, after you signed that statement, did you then make
23 some additions or -- let me start again. Did you then make some changes
24 to that statement?
25 A. Yes, there were some changes, minor changes I would say. I made
1 these minor corrections, but they were not that important as far as the
2 context was concerned. Whether it was this date or that date or whether
3 it was the left hand or right hand, these kinds of mistakes, minor
4 mistakes. I would say the majority of the statement was correct:
5 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, I need to impose on your goodwill one more
6 time. There is an additional document that I believe is in front of the
7 witness. If that could be placed on the ELMO.
8 Q. Mr. Jusufi, is that your signature at the bottom of that
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, can we turn the page, please? And for the
12 person who's working in the audio-visual booth, I need to see what's
13 written at the very top of this page. No, that is the wrong document,
14 sir. We've already seen that document. We need to see a document that
15 has the title, "Additions or Corrections."
16 Q. If you look at the signature on the first page, Mr. Jusufi,
17 again, please, is that your signature?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And can we turn to the next page, please. And can the camera be
20 moved so that we can see the top of this page, please. And at the top of
21 the page, it says, "Additions or Corrections to the Rule 92 ter Statement
22 by Elmaz Jusufi."
23 Mr. Jusufi, did you sign every page of this document?
24 A. Yes, every page.
25 Q. And were the contents of this document read to you in your
1 language before you signed?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can we turn to the -- can we turn to page 6, please? Mr. Jusufi,
4 is that your signature at the bottom of that page?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Jusufi, together, would these two documents that you signed
7 in April of this year, represent what you would say today if you were
8 testifying orally?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would seek to tender the
11 consolidated rule 92 ter statement of Mr. Jusufi and the document
12 entitled, "Addenda and Corrections" to the Rule 92 ter statement of
13 Mr. Jusufi.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
15 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, could we leave that perhaps until
16 after the evidence of this witness so as not to interrupt the flow of his
17 evidence. We'll have some response to the offer made by the Prosecution.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Well on this occasion, yes, Mr. Mettraux, although
19 the normal process would be to do it at this time.
20 MR. METTRAUX: I would be happy to do it now, if you want,
21 Your Honour.
22 The objection which we would have is essentially the one which we
23 raised yesterday. There is a number of concerns as to the manner and way
24 in which the consolidation has taken place.
25 We've sent an e-mail to Mr. Saxon two days ago. He hasn't been
1 able yet to respond to us. But what we would propose to do, is we've
2 asked the Prosecution to provide us with a document which allows us to
3 identify the changes and amendments made, and if they are all agreeable
4 to us, there would be no need for the Chamber to decide anything. I
5 think we could agree with the Prosecution as to whether some of the
6 amendments made are proper and adequate in the circumstances, and we only
7 need the assistance of the Court if the party can't agree that the
8 consolidation is indeed within the realm of Your Honour's order.
9 JUDGE PARKER: I think, in the circumstances, the practical
10 course is for the Chamber to receive both the statement and the document
11 of amendments, and we will take into account any concerns that are
12 pursued in due course.
13 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE PARKER: So if the registry officer could give an exhibit
15 number. Thank you.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document bearing ERN number
17 N006-4132 becomes Exhibit P8. The second document bearing ERN number
18 N006-4121 will become Exhibit P9. Thank you.
19 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: I'm just collecting in my mind whether it is going
21 to be better in the long run if we have the amendments with the same
22 exhibit number as the main statement.
23 MR. SAXON: I believe it would be, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE PARKER: It might be less confusing. As we're finding our
25 way, perhaps the Court Officer would be kind enough to re-number the
1 second document as part of Exhibit P8. 8.1 and 8.2 will become the two
2 exhibits. I think it will be easier for everybody then to find the
3 statement and then the amendment later.
4 Thank you.
5 MR. SAXON:
6 Q. Mr. Jusufi, I need to show you a photograph now, and I'm
7 wondering if we could show on the computer screens, from Rule 65 ter
8 number 608, a photograph with ERN 0501-6264, which is tab 1 of the
9 exhibits that have been distributed today.
10 Just for the record, Mr. Jusufi, do you recognise the person in
11 that photograph?
12 A. Of course I do. A man recognises his own child in whatever state
13 he is.
14 Q. What was your son's name who is in that photograph?
15 A. Rami Jusufi.
16 MR. SAXON: Thank you. If that photograph could be tendered as
17 an exhibit, Your Honour, please.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P9, Your Honours.
20 MR. SAXON: If that photograph could be removed from the screen,
21 please, and if we could show the witness, from Rule 65 ter number 170, a
22 photograph with an ERN N000-7850. This would be tab 2.
23 Q. Mr. Jusufi, who is shown in that photograph?
24 A. Elmaz Jusufi, the person you see sitting right here.
25 Q. And in that photograph, where are you?
1 A. In the corridor. We call it "hodnik," which in English is
3 Q. And the corridor of what building, what place?
4 A. Of Elmaz Jusufi's house.
5 Q. That's your home; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you appear to be sitting very close to a door.
8 A. Yes. The door to the room is opposite to this door. There's
9 only two and a half metres from the place where I am to the door.
10 Q. All right. And this door that we see open here, is that the
11 entrance to your home?
12 A. Yes, yes, this is the front door, the entrance door to the house.
13 MR. SAXON: I would ask that this photo be tendered into
14 evidence, please.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P10, Your Honours.
17 MR. SAXON: Thank you.
18 I'd ask, please, that that photograph be taken off the screen,
19 and if we could see -- this will be tab 3, 65 ter number 609, the
20 photograph with the ERN number 0501-6271.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rami Jusufi.
22 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry, there seems to be a technical problem on
23 my side of the room, because I'm still seeing the former exhibit.
24 Q. Mr. Jusufi, do you recognise the two people shown in this
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who is shown in this photograph?
3 A. Rami Jusufi and Elivje Jusufi.
4 Q. And what relation, if any, was Elivje to your son Rami?
5 A. She was his wife.
6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, can this photograph be also tendered
7 into evidence, please.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P11, Your Honours.
10 MR. SAXON: Could we now show the witness 65 ter number 197, with
11 an ERN number N001-4925.10. And this is the last tab, Your Honour, in
12 the folder that you have.
13 Q. Mr. Jusufi, do you recognise what is shown in this photograph?
14 A. This photograph depicts the yard and the entrance gate to my yard
15 and a car, a Golf make - Golf II make - which was on my name registered,
16 but since I was ill, my son Rami was driving it and taking me for
18 On the other side, you see a building, a feature that was under
19 construction, but the construction material for building it was burnt
21 Q. You see, in this vehicle that we can see, what had happened to
22 that vehicle; do you know?
23 A. I will tell you now in more details what happened to the car.
24 Q. Just briefly, just a very brief answer, please.
25 A. Briefly, after my son was killed, the car was burnt down. So the
1 car was burnt after my son was killed.
2 Q. Was the car burned on the same day that your son died?
3 A. Yes, at that moment.
4 Q. Do you know who burned this car?
5 A. The police, the police burnt it.
6 MR. SAXON: Thank you. Your Honour, at this time I -- I must
7 admit -- I have a request. Could this photograph, please, be tendered
8 into evidence.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P12, Your Honours.
11 MR. SAXON: Thank you.
12 At this time, I have no more questions, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps before you sit: The first photograph you
14 saw of your son, Mr. Jusufi, if you remember, lying on the carpet on the
15 floor, do you know where that photograph was taken and when it was taken?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That photograph was taken on the
17 13th at 10.00 in my daughter's house, which is in the same village, in
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And do you know who took the
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The hodxa, the Muslim priest
22 of our village.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
24 Now, of course, you rely, Mr. Saxon, on the statement that has
25 been tendered as the evidence-in-chief of the witness, pursuant to
1 Rule 92 ter.
2 MR. SAXON: Correct, Your Honour, in addition to what -- and in
3 addition, obviously, to what the witness has told us today about these
4 particular four --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Thank you.
6 Well, then, we come then to cross-examination.
7 Ms. Residovic.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE PARKER: There will be questions by Ms. Residovic to you,
10 Mr. Jusufi.
11 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusufi, I am Edina Residovic, together with
13 my colleague, Guenal Mettraux. I am defending Mr. Ljube Boskoski. On
14 behalf of my client, Mr. Boskoski, on my personal behalf and on behalf of
15 Mr. Mettraux, I would like to state -- to give you my condolences and the
16 understanding about the grieving of your son before.
17 Mr. Jusufi, from your data, I understand that you also understand
18 Bosnian language. I understand you all, so the language that I speak --
19 A. Yes, you don't even need to interpret. I can just listen to the
20 lawyer. I understand her completely.
21 Q. But, Mr. Jusufi, everything that me and you are saying must be
22 interpreted so His Honour and the colleagues in the courtroom will be
23 able to understand what we are saying. I would therefore ask you,
24 Mr. Jusufi, when I end with my question, to wait a while for the
25 interpreters to interpret my question, and then you respond to it, so
1 everyone in the courtroom will know what you are testifying.
2 Did you understand me, Mr. Jusufi? Thank you.
3 A. Yes, yes, I did.
4 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that we have met last year in your
5 house in Ljuboten; yes?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I thank you for that, Mr. Jusufi, because you were the only of
8 the Ljuboten residents that wanted to talk to the Defence.
9 A. Yes, I was.
10 Q. Mr. Jusufi, you are Albanian by ethnicity and a Muslim by faith?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. A while ago to the question of the learned colleague, you said
13 that your family -- your last name is pronounced differently in Albanian
14 and differently in Macedonian; is it so?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. But there is a custom among the Albanians that -- whereby a
17 family at some time could change its name; is it so?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Your family, Mr. Jusufi, used to be called "Rashiti," so it is
20 possible today that some people call you with your old family last name;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Jusufi, is it correct that the Muslim names are recognisable?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And those are of Turkish or Arabic origin; is it so?
1 A. No. I am not, by origin, Turk or Arab. I'm Albanian.
2 Q. Yes. But personal names of the Muslim nation frequently bear the
3 personal name which is Turkish or Arabic; is that so? Muslim names are
5 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct, they're similar.
6 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, when I came to your house and when I
7 introduced myself, you understood also that I am coming from a Muslim
8 family; right?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. You recognised that by my name; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that at that time you told me that you
13 are puzzled that I'm yours -- that I'm coming from a Muslim family and I
14 am defending your enemy; do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you remember that I responded to you, Mr. Jusufi, that I --
17 that I am defending Mr. Boskoski, that he's not the enemy, but a friend
18 of the Albanians, that he grew up with them, and that the Court will be
19 the one to decide whether he is or he is not responsible for what the
20 indictment charges him for?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. That's part of our discussion?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it correct that at that time you very pleasantly said that you
25 will be speaking with me about the events?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. The conversation took place in your living room?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You were lying in one part of the sofa, and I was sitting on the
5 sofa that is on a 90-degree angle from the place where you were sitting;
6 is that correct?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. At that moment, present in your house were your wife, your
9 sister-in-law, the wife of the deceased Rami -- your daughter-in-law, I
10 apologise, and your -- your grandchildren; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Jusufi, that at one point your
13 daughter-in-law stated that her husband, Rami, has told her that he has
14 seen the police from the roof in Brace's house early in the morning? At
15 that time, you interrupted her, you told her that she was not in the
16 house, you told her that you have already given a statement to the
17 Prosecutor, and that you do not want to change that statement. Do you
18 remember that part of the conversation?
19 A. We didn't have such a conversation, but we interrupted it because
20 these were rumours. I didn't say this. I said only that when the son
21 returned in the evening, in the evening of Saturday, he said that, "I
22 hardly made it because of the police." And maybe Boskoski was there,
23 too, because I saw many policemen. That's why I interrupted her, because
24 this is not correct, because he said "maybe," he didn't say that he was.
25 So there is a difference between that, so that's why I interrupted her,
1 because as I said, there is a difference. It is probable or maybe he
2 was, but it's different if you say he was. That is the reason that I
3 interrupted her, because it was simply on an unbased rumour, I would say.
4 Q. Thank you. You asked your daughter-in-law to leave the room, and
5 after that there was only me and you having a conversation; was it so?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jusufi, I would like to ask you some general
8 questions so we could better understand the entire situation.
9 Mr. Jusufi, since you were born, you've been living in Ljuboten;
10 is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Ljuboten is placed at the slopes of Skopska Crna Mountain?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. From the village of Ljuboten, Skopje could be seen very well, so
15 its position is practically -- this situation practically dominates over
16 the Skopje valley; is it so?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Are -- do you know, Mr. Jusufi, that above the village there
19 is -- there are Ljubotenski Bachilo, and then Bacula comes and then Crn
20 Common [phoen]; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that for ages in that area above the
23 village of Ljuboten, there was a road that caravans used to pass by and
24 people used to call me -- call it Sultana Vaxada [phoen]?
25 A. That was the road of Sultan Murat.
1 Q. At that time, that road was used to connect the southern parts of
2 Serbia, the areas around Kumanovo, towards Tetovo and Kosovo; is it so?
3 A. No, the road was not that. That road was to be used by people
4 walking or riding on horseback. It was a narrow path. You couldn't
5 drive a car on that road. It was built during the Turkish time. Now we
6 use another path, another road.
7 Q. Mr. Jusufi, maybe we misunderstood each other.
8 A. Okay. Well, okay.
9 Q. That's exactly what I had in mind. During the Turkish time, the
10 road was used to connect the East with the West?
11 A. You are right, yes. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Before the disintegration of Socialist Federal Republic of
13 Yugoslavia, so during the existence of the country, you are aware of
14 that, that that road was frequently used as a road that was used by
15 various smuggling groups, smugglers of fire-arms, of cigarettes, et
17 A. Please stop here a little bit. That road does not go through
18 Ljuboten. This road does not belong to Ljuboten. That road passes
19 through Radisa, Brodec, Ramno. It is an asphalt road up to Tanushevc.
20 The road you mentioned has got nothing to do with smuggling. That is
22 Q. Thank you. Bearing in mind this position of Skopje, especially
23 during the conflict in the south of Serbia in the area of Kumanovo and
24 Tetovo, could you agree with me that Ljuboten was of a very -- great
25 strategic importance for Skopje?
1 A. No, Ljuboten doesn't constitute any strategic point. We never
2 thought that this would befall on Ljuboten. It had nothing to do with
3 Lipkove or Tanushevc. It was a quiet -- it was another zone. Ljuboten
4 was surrounded by Macedonians. The other village is situated in
6 Q. Skopska - correction - Crna Gora. That is your opinion and I
7 respect it, but Skopska Crna Gora, where Ljuboten lives is, of course, of
8 a great strategical importance for the -- for Skopje itself?
9 A. They are strategic. Kucevishte is also a strategic point. There
10 are 20 villages near Skopje. They are either 10 or 8 kilometres far from
11 Skopje, and they're all linked to Skopje. Ljubans, Ljuboten, also is
12 placed in a good strategic position, even better than Ljuboten.
13 We are not here to talk about strategy here or strategic
15 Q. Yes, but your village at one time used to be a subject of the
16 distribution of the military forces of the Republic of Macedonia because
17 they thought that that area is of a specific strategic importance?
18 A. Yes, but we are Albanians, they are Macedonians. We are
19 Albanian, and they thought that they should protect this village from
20 someone entering it. That's why the army came there. But we didn't have
21 anything to do with it.
22 Q. You stated that Ljuboten would not have anything to do with some
23 attacks, and I could agree with you that at the time of the events in
24 Ljuboten, it was not the focus of the attacks of the extremist Albanian
25 groups, as was the case with Kumanovo or Tetovo, but could you agree with
1 me that Ljuboten could serve as a significant logistics base for certain
2 extremist groups from these regions?
3 A. No, no. You must be sure that Ljuboten didn't even think of it
4 and never thought to do that and never worked in that direction, not at
5 all. I'm talking for the entire village of Ljuboten, because that is a
6 village engaged in agriculture, hardworking village. It didn't have any
7 interest, any stake in that, because if they did, they would have left
8 the village like the others did, and they went to Skopje or to Kosovo.
9 Ljuboten population remained there. We never thought and never dreamt of
10 being in that situation when we were fired at.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Let me just ask you something else
13 A. Yes, you may.
14 Q. Is it correct that in the village of Ljuboten, that you could
15 come from Skopje to the village of Ljuboten by the road leading through
16 Ljubanci or the road leading through Radisani; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, you can.
18 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that also an additional road was built
19 that went around part of the village where the Macedonian population
20 lives, and that you used to call that the Ljuboten road, Ljubotenski Pat
21 in Macedonian?
22 A. That was a road that we built ourselves, because it was
23 3 kilometres far from the village and the entire population built it.
24 Q. All right, thank you. When you go from Skopje towards Ljuboten,
25 from the direction of Ljubanci, the road passes by the house of Brace,
1 which is located directly at the crossroad between the villages of
2 Ljubanci and Ljuboten; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, yes. Brace is 100 metres away from my home. Brace's place
4 was sold by me. He was my neighbour. I sold him that plot of land. He
5 was a friend. My -- my son was a friend with him, too. He did what he
6 did to us.
7 Q. After the house of Brace, you pass by several houses where
8 Macedonians live, and then you come down to the crossroad at the bottom
9 of which there is a shop; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. That street is the main street in Ljuboten, and its name is
12 Street number 5; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, yes. I don't know, I don't know the number, but you are
14 right, that is the main road. I don't know its number.
15 Q. If one goes from that shop towards the Orthodox Church, the
16 houses -- your house, the house of Kenan Jusufi, of Xhabir Jusufi and
17 Sefer Jusufi were located; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, and more, some more houses.
19 Q. Immediately adjacent to the shop, there is a narrow lane where
20 there is a new house of your neighbour, Fatmir Kamberi, and his brother,
21 Memshi Kamberi; is that correct?
22 A. Kamberi, Memshi.
23 Q. Yes, brother.
24 A. He's not at the road there, it is 50 metres in the -- inside the
25 road. You are talking about Fatmir?
1 Q. Yes. A new house of Fatmir and a house of Meshir?
2 A. I believe it was three new houses, yes. There are three such
4 Q. I was aware of the two only. Thank you very much.
5 A. Three.
6 Q. If you would go from the shop towards the mosque that is located
7 in the centre of the village, at the very road -- at the main road, the
8 houses of Sabit Jusufi are located, as well as Xhevdet Jusufi, the old
9 house of Fatmir Kamberi --
10 A. No, no, no.
11 Q. -- and across from the old house of Fatmir Kamberi, there is the
12 house of the Macedonian Sande Kostovski?
13 A. You have passed that house. Sabit Jusufi, Nazmi Jusufi,
14 Xhevdet Jusufi, Agim Jusufi, Kamberi Fatmir and Sande Kostovski. It's
15 above Sande's road, but I don't think you mentioned the houses in proper
16 line as they are situated.
17 Q. At any rate, majority of the houses belong -- most of the houses
18 belong to the Jusufi family?
19 A. Ten houses altogether, ten or twelve, I think. Jusufi or Rashit,
20 that's the last name, but it's the same family.
21 Q. And that, Mr. Jusufi, is otherwise the way in which the Albanian
22 families used to live, especially in villages. The family is related by
23 blood, by the male stream, were normally living in the same
24 neighbourhood; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, they live close together, 10, 20 metres far from one
1 another, whatever comprises the Jusufi family.
2 Q. And all those houses that were facing the main street, those that
3 I have mentioned and the ones that you added because I failed to mention
4 them, they were, as your house is, surrounded by a wall so that the
5 family life is protected from the views and the curiosity of the
6 passersby on the street; is that correct?
7 A. All these houses have big gates that divide them from the
8 street, so you can see 10 or 12 doors one after the other and they all
9 belong to the Rashiti family or Jusufi otherwise.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 I would like to ask now that the witness is shown Prosecutor's
12 number 65 ter 199.3. Yesterday that document was given Prosecutor's
13 exhibit number P3.
14 Q. Mr. Jusufi, could you tell me whether you recognise this
16 A. Yes. This is a photo of my own house. It's a courtyard.
17 Q. Could you know if you have some instrument to point?
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to
19 give one to you.
20 A. I can't reach the figure there.
21 Q. I apologise. I don't think it will be visible. We will provide
22 the witness with a hard-copy photograph, and I would like to ask you to
23 put it on the ELMO?
24 A. It is irrelevant. I can see whatever you want me to see and I
25 will say whatever I need to say. I will answer you in every question
1 you'll ask me. Just ask me what you want me to say. You don't need to
2 be discomforted.
3 Q. Please, Mr. Jusufi, could you just use the photograph that you
4 have, and show on the projector where is the main gate where you entered
5 the house from?
6 A. Here. [Marks].
7 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that behind that gate, the wall
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. That we discussed before and which prevents someone from the
11 street seeing what is going on inside the yard; is that correct?
12 A. Yes. It's a little bit steep here and the wall isn't very high,
13 and you can see, because I think it's one metre and 50 centimetres. You
14 can see from this part. But from here [indicates], it's even more
15 difficult, unless you see someone who is very tall.
16 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, could you point in the photograph
17 where was your shed located?
18 A. My shed is located -- it is not a shed. This here [indicates],
19 you see the small gate, and after this there is a wall. And this is
20 where the shed was, from this door to this door [indicates]. There were
21 10 cubic metres of timber and other materials, and everything was burned
22 down. The gates, too, were burned down.
23 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that from this main entrance your yard
24 is on a slight incline towards your house?
25 A. Yes. It's rather steep, like 10 degrees steepness. I can't be
1 very precise. There is an incline.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Jusufi.
3 Judge, maybe this is the right time to go into the break.
4 JUDGE PARKER: We will need to break now for half an hour.
5 Before we do, I would like to record in the transcript that when the
6 witness was pointing to the location of his shed, it was to a position to
7 the right of the camera which took the photograph, between the position
8 of the camera and the fence and gate. And that is as we looked at
9 Exhibit P2.
10 We will adjourn now and resume at quarter past 4.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.
13 JUDGE PARKER: We hope you are feeling a little better,
14 Mr. Jusufi.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Well, I'll then ask Ms. Residovic to
17 continue her questions.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Jusufi, I would like to ask that the witness is shown again
20 Prosecutor's Exhibit P2 that is on the ELMO in front of the witness, and
21 now I would like to ask the usher to help the witness and provide him
22 with a pencil.
23 Mr. Jusufi, a while ago you have shown me the wall that continues
24 from the gate onwards, so, please, could you note down the number 1 to
25 indicate the part of the wall that is behind your house, towards the main
1 street? Please write number 1 there.
2 A. Here [indicates]? [Marks].
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So the witness has marked with
4 the number 1 the wall that separates the yard of his house from the main
6 Q. Now I would like to ask you, Mr. Jusufi, since before the break
7 you have pointed also the corner where your shed was located with the
8 wood -- with the logs that burned. Could you please write the number 2
10 A. Here [indicates] yes. The wall near the shed, you mean?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. [Marks].
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has marked the
14 direction where the shed with the logs was located.
15 Q. Mr. Jusufi, can one see in this photograph also the garden gate -
16 kapidzik, the local name - through which you go to your garden?
17 A. I don't understand what you mean by "garden." This here
18 [indicates] is the yard, from the main gate up to this point here. This
19 is the yard. And here [indicates] is the entrance to the house. You
20 cannot call it yard. But this part here is the yard. From this point up
21 to this point [indicates], there are 5 metres.
22 Q. Okay, thank you. I would like to ask you, is that part separated
23 by a door, by any garden gate, kapidzik?
24 A. No, there is no garden gate here. This used to be open and has
25 no importance whatsoever, no function.
1 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you now to sign this photograph
2 and write today's date, 8th of May, 2007.
3 A. Here? [Indicates].
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. 2007. And sign your name, please?
7 A. Here [indicates].
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. [Marks].
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I now move
11 that this photograph is admitted as an exhibit.
12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D1, Your Honours.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask now that the witness
15 is shown P12. And considering that the witness could not write anything
16 on the e-court, I would ask that the witness is assisted by the usher and
17 presented with this picture, placed on the ELMO, that used to be
18 Prosecutor's number 65 ter 197.
19 Q. Mr. Jusufi, this is a dual image. It depicts the same facility,
20 so to say. Do you see it?
21 A. Yes, it's the same image. There are no differences whatsoever
22 between the two.
23 Q. I would like to ask you only to mark the upper part of the image
24 with an arrow pointing the way from the entrance door to the yard, to the
25 gate, where it can be clearly seen also from this car what you have
1 stated before, that your yard is on a slight incline, that there is a
2 slope. So, please, make an arrow from the end of the car towards the
3 bottom of the photograph. Yes, from there to the bottom part of the
5 A. Shall I mark it with a line.
6 Q. Yes, yes, a line. Just a line with an arrow?
7 A. Yes. It's up to here. [Marks].
8 Q. Thank you. You have also stated, when I asked you what is the
9 height of the wall -- I would like to ask you now to circle the man who
10 is at the gate, and next to him write the number 1, since he is a
11 benchmark for the wall that you can see?
12 A. This is the main street. [Indicates].
13 Q. Next to the man?
14 A. Yes, next to the man.
15 Q. Since the man is of a certain height, so please mark it with
16 number 1?
17 A. This wall is outside, not on my side of the gate.
18 Q. Yes, yes, there is some of yours as well?
19 A. This is outside [indicates], while this one here is my wall
20 [indicates]. This is on my side of the house.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. And here is also on my side [indicates].
23 Q. All right. Then mark your wall with number 1?
24 A. So my wall with number 1.
25 Q. Yes?
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. Mark the door, the gate, with the number 2?
3 A. [Marks]. There's the gate number 2.
4 Q. And mark the man with the number 3?
5 A. Number 3. [Marks].
6 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you also to write today's date,
7 8th of May, 2000 --
8 A. 8/5/2007.
9 Q. Then sign your name.
10 A. [Marks].
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I am
12 tendering this as an exhibit composed in the court.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D2, Your Honours.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask now that the witness
15 is shown 65 ter number 170, page 5, and we could also, with the
16 assistance of the usher, show the witness and place on the ELMO a
18 Q. Mr. Jusufi, you are certainly able to recognise your house? This
19 house, it is your house?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And on this paper, you again have two identical images; is that
23 A. Yes. Yes, they show the same image. They are completely
24 identical. The entrance here on this one [indicates] and the entrance on
25 the other one as well.
1 Q. I will ask you, Mr. Jusufi, if you are able to point or to say
2 whether this small black frame that can be seen on the left-hand side is
3 the frame of the window to the living room.
4 A. Here [indicates], yes, it's the window to the room on the left.
5 As you enter the house, the house -- the room on the left side. This is
6 the meter here [indicates], and this is the mark that was hit by the
7 police [indicates], and I have not changed it. I keep it that way.
8 Q. All right. Could you mark the frame with the number 1, so that
9 we know that this is the window? Yes, precisely there.
10 A. Number 1. [Marks].
11 Q. You have marked here the window frame of the living room window
12 where you -- into which you enter when you enter the corridor and then on
13 the left-hand side. Above that window, one could see upstairs the frame
14 of another window. Could you tell me, what room does this window belong
16 A. To the room on the upper floor. This is the ground floor
17 [indicates], and this is the upper floor. We call it the second floor.
18 Q. All right. Tell me whether that is a room that was customarily
19 used by your son, Rami Jusufi.
20 A. He used two rooms; this one and this one here [indicates]. He
21 had two rooms in the upper floor, and I had two rooms in the ground
23 Q. Would you then mark the entire upper floor with the number 2,
24 which confirms that your son Rami used the rooms on the floor, on the
25 upper floor?
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. Tell me now, Mr. Jusufi, whether during that time, 11th and 12th
3 of August, your son Rami again used those rooms on the upper floor.
4 A. On the 12th of August, you mean?
5 Q. 11th --
6 A. It should be the 11th, and he did not use this room on the 11th
7 of August. On the 11th, he slept here [indicates] in the room with me,
8 because his wife was not there. The children were, but his wife was not.
9 You should first ask me how it came to that.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. "The children were
11 not there."
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. All right. Would you then write the date on this picture as well
14 and sign your name?
15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will sign the date, but --
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Jusufi, there's no need for you to do that.
18 Thank you.
19 I'm just saying, Ms. Residovic, because of the electronic
20 technology we now use, there's really no need, in the course of this
21 trial, for you to have a witness sign and date. Certainly have them mark
22 1, 2, 3, the different things you need, but we've got the whole image
23 then captured, so it will speed things up if we don't date and sign the
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
1 This is the first time for me that I participate in a trial that uses
2 e-court, and thank you for reminding me of this fact. Thank you.
3 You may now remove the photographs that were placed in front of
4 the witness, and I tender this photograph marked by the witness and ask
5 that it receives an exhibit number as an evidence constructed in the
7 THE REGISTRAR: 23, Your Honours.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Jusufi, you spoke earlier that there were no problems in the
10 village of Ljuboten; is that correct?
11 A. Yes. In the past, we didn't have problems, but we, during this
12 time, were not in peace. Personally, I was, in a way, but the children
13 were very scared because of the shootings and because of the roadblocks.
14 Q. But, Mr. Jusufi, could you remember that as early as in 1992,
15 there was a process in the course of which in 1994 some persons, such as
16 Mithat Emini and Hasan Agushi, Hysen Haskaj, and others were convicted
17 because they attempted, in the village of Ljuboten, to establish a
18 paramilitary independent unit? Were you aware of that?
19 A. No, no. I'm hearing about this for the first time today. At
20 that time, I was employed, I was working in a state company, and I was
21 not interested in these matters, and I never heard of this.
22 Q. All right. With regards to the events that took place between
23 the 10th and 12th of August, 2001, in which, unfortunately, your son lost
24 his life, you, Mr. Jusufi, have discussed them very frequently not only
25 with the Defence but also with the representatives of international
1 organisations, journalists, and of course repeatedly with the
2 investigators of the OTP of the ICTY; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, we did talk to them and explained what happened to us.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask now that 65 ter
6 number ID 24 is shown, page ID 0297. 1D. Maybe I misread. 65 ter
7 number 1D, page 1D0297.
8 Q. This document, Mr. Jusufi, is in the English language, and I
9 would like to ask you: Is it correct that you, in April of 2007, when
10 this file started, made a statement to the journalists of the
11 Associated Press so that in the report of the journalists of this agency,
12 Karantin Kry [phoen], it is stated, I quote:
13 "Jusufi expects the trip to The Hague to testify in the case
14 despite the fact that he is paralysed. He says that he hopes to see
15 Boskoski and Tarculovski convicted."
16 Is it correct that you have stated this?
17 A. I did not say "convicted." I did say that I'm ready to travel to
18 The Hague, but it's not up to me whether they will be convicted or not.
19 There's another body who has the duty to do that. I said that I was
20 ready to travel to The Hague and testify before this Court, but I did not
21 say that I want to see Tarculovski and Boskoski convicted. As I said,
22 it's another organ who decides on this.
23 Q. If these journalists have quoted you as I have stated, it is
24 obvious then that they misinterpreted your statement; is that what you're
25 trying to say?
1 A. I believe it is so, because I did not say "convicted." He did
2 kill someone of my family, but as for him, personally, there is another
3 body that decides whether he will be convicted or not.
4 Q. Now, I would like to ask you, Mr. Jusufi: Have you also
5 discussed, in 2001, the issues with the representatives of Human Rights
7 A. No, I'm not familiar with this representative, and I don't think
8 I've spoken to this person. I cannot say "yes." Maybe it is true, but
9 perhaps I have forgotten about this.
10 Q. All right.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would then ask that the
12 document 65 ter 1D22 is shown, page 1D0287, Macedonian 1D0291.
13 Q. Mr. Jusufi, this is the first page, and the page where your
14 statement is elaborated. Since you said that you maybe do not remember,
15 that maybe you have spoken and maybe not --
16 A. I don't remember at all. They did not say to me that these were
17 who they were. As for the others, I know them.
18 Q. In this report, I will remind you, it is stated -- this is a
19 statement that you have made on the 20th of August, 2001, as it is stated
20 in the report itself, immediately after the events. It is stated the
22 "At the moment when the attack started, they came to my house.
23 My yard was full. There were about 20 of them there. They were all
24 wearing uniforms, but not masks as well. They shelled the gate to the
25 yard. My son went to close the front door. At the moment when he closed
1 the door and returned back to the room, there was a big blast. They
2 demolished the door by -- they blew up the door by a machine-gun."
3 A. This is a mistake, this is a total -- a complete mistake. I will
4 tell you now how it was.
5 Q. Okay. Please wait a moment:
6 "That was the moment when my son was hit on the side and in his
7 stomach from the shootings. He fell there. It happened right in front
8 of my eyes."
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I ask that the English version of
10 this section of the text is shown; that is, 1D0288.
11 So this is 1D22, while the page is 1D0288. Thank you.
12 Q. So you have tried to interrupt me, stating that this was not
13 true; is that correct?
14 A. What you read in the beginning, that is not correct. It is
15 correct that he was killed while at the gate, but it's not correct that
16 he went outside and then came back in. I will tell you now how it
17 happened. What you just read was -- is incorrect.
18 Q. So if Human Rights Watch wrote what I have just read, you are
19 saying that they did not relay correctly what has happened and what you
20 have told them; is that correct?
21 A. Partially, it is correct, but there's a part that is incorrect.
22 The part that describes how he was killed near the entrance door, that is
23 correct, but the part that was saying that he left and then came back,
24 that is not correct. As he was going to close the door, that's when he
25 was killed, at the door.
1 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Jusufi, that after this interview with you and
2 with Muzafer Jusufi, the representatives of Human Rights Watch made, that
3 on the 23rd of August they visited your house, made some photographs, and
4 you had still not returned. You were still not returned to your house
6 A. Muzafer was in Skopje. We stayed in Skopje for more than a
7 month, for about 45 days. I don't know who gave other statements. I
8 have given my own statement. Muzafer did not come back to Ljuboten for
9 five months. He stayed in Skopje.
10 Q. But you are certain that you did not return for the following
11 three or four weeks to your house; is that correct?
12 A. Six weeks, six full weeks. Now, whether six weeks make 50 days
13 or 45, that I don't know, but it's six weeks.
14 Q. And neither your wife, Zenep, had returned to the house?
15 A. No, nobody.
16 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask that the document number 65
17 ter 1D2, page 1D0012, is shown. And I'm asking you: Have you,
18 Mr. Jusufi, after the events, discussed them with the journalists several
20 A. I have spoken with journalists on several occasions.
21 Q. We have in front of us the document of the London newspaper
22 "Independent," and their journalist is Justin Huggler?
23 In paragraph 4 of 6th of September, 2001, has written that you
24 have stated the following:
25 "On the 12th of August, the police entered Ljuboten. They
1 surrounded 20 houses around ours. There was an old man inside the
3 That means you, your wife, Zenep, and your son Rami and two
5 "The relatives hid behind the shed while --"
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not sure where the two
7 relatives hid.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. " ... while Mrs. Jusufi hid behind the stove. We heard them
10 entering into our yard. They shot into my car. Then they set it on
11 fire. Then Rami remembered that the front gate was not closed and went
12 to lock it. They shot him through the door."
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before I ask you the question, I
14 would like to ask -- it is of use that I will have to learn about the
15 e-court for several days. I ask that 1D0013 is shown. The next page,
16 1D2, page 1D0013. Yes.
17 In the fourth paragraph is the part that I have just read to
18 Mr. Jusufi.
19 Q. Tell me now, Mr. Jusufi, whether the journalists of
20 "Independent" have relayed correctly what you have stated to them then?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Meanwhile, the interpreters say it is the sofa
22 where the relatives hid.
23 A. No, this is not completely correct. There are things that are
24 correct, but there are things that are incorrect. I will tell you the
25 truth here today before these Honourable Judges, and what is in the
1 report is not completely correct. They say that my son went out and came
2 in, which is not true. I really don't know how to answer this question
3 you're putting to me. My answer will be the same. When you ask me what
4 happened, I will tell you exactly what happened. I have come here,
5 passing thousands of kilometres in this state, to come and tell the
6 truth. If I'm an invalid, that does not mean that my mind is not working
7 properly. My mind is working properly.
8 This report is not completely correct. There are things mixed up
9 in that.
10 Q. All right, thank you very much.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask now that the
12 witness is also shown 65 ter number 1D25, page 1D0299.
13 Q. This is the first page of the book IWPER, and I ask now that the
14 next page is shown, 1D25, 1D0303, the last paragraph, and if you could
15 show 1D0304, the first paragraph?
16 Mr. Jusufi, as you stated that you have discussed frequently with
17 the journalists and with the international organisations, this institute
18 for reporting on war and peace has reported that on the 3rd of April,
19 2002, you have told them the following:
20 "We've heard shootings. The power went out. My son jumped to
21 close the front door, but the police was already inside the yard. They
22 saw him and shot. He tried escaping, but he was hit and fell."
23 You stated also that your son was shot by two bullets from his
24 back, near his kidneys, that went through his stomach. He died an hour
1 Have you stated this, Mr. Jusufi, on the 3rd of April, 2002?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Please repeat the part from the moment "they entered the main
4 door and until my son was killed."
5 A. Is it written there, because there is a part which is correct in
6 this report, but there are parts that are incorrect.
7 Q. "He tried to run away, but he was hit and fell." That is what is
8 written here.
9 A. This is wrong. That is a mistake, an absolute mistake. You must
10 be sure of what I'm saying, Your Honours. I can tell you, if you want
11 me, how it exactly happened, but this is wrong.
12 Q. So, Mr. Jusufi, you are testifying that these persons, two from
13 the Institute for Reporting on War and Peace, as well as the previous
14 reporters, have incorrectly stated what you have said to them? Are you
15 trying to say that?
16 A. There are mistakes in it. Some things are correct. They said he
17 wanted to leave, which is not correct. How could he go? He was
18 sleeping. Where could he go?
19 Q. Mr. Jusufi, we will now go on to the statements that you have
20 given to the investigators of the ICTY. You have already answered before
21 that on several occasions you have talked to the investigators; is that
23 A. Yes, we have.
24 Q. If I remind you, you have told the ICTY investigator and have
25 given statements on 9th of February, 2003, then 3rd of October, 2003,
1 then you have given an addition to the statement of February 9, 2003, and
2 both these statements have been confirmed by the officer of the ICTY who
3 came to Ljuboten; is it so?
4 A. I don't know the date or how many times they came. This, I don't
5 remember, but I do remember that they came. This I can say, I can
6 confirm that they came and that I gave statements, but I can't give you
7 accurate dates. What they have taken down, this is correct, but what you
8 put to me earlier, this is not entirely correct. I do not fully agree
9 with what you put to me. My son -- that you said to me my son wanted to
10 leave, that they saw him and they killed him, this is not correct, this
11 part is not correct.
12 I think you must believe me, Your Honours, what I'm telling you,
13 because if you don't believe me, neither God will believe me, because God
14 teaches us to tell the truth, and God, Allah, has always said, "I love
15 just men, the honest man." The fact is that my son -- the fact that my
16 son left the house is not correct, and I don't want to lie here.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I apologise for the interruption, but
19 there's a point that I feel needs to be clarified.
20 In the translation to Ms. Residovic's last question, in the
21 English translation, the last part of the question reads this way:
22 "And both these statements have been confirmed by the officer of
23 the ICTY who came to Ljuboten; is it so?"
24 If that is an accurate translation, I'm wondering if
25 Ms. Residovic could simply clarify what she means by "confirmed by an
1 ICTY investigator," because it's unclear to the Prosecution, what that
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I would
4 like to correct a mistake that I have made, which is that the statement
5 of the 3rd of October had not been given in 2003 but in 2004, and in
6 respect to the confirmation, I have said that the officer of the
7 Registrar have certified this statement as -- as being a statement, and I
8 now add 92 bis.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Jusufi, since, as I understood, there's no need to enumerate
12 all the statements that you have given because you could not really
13 remember the dates, I will feel free to show you each of those
14 statements, and then you confirm whether you have given that statement
15 and signed the same statement.
16 I would now ask that the statement of the 9th of February is
17 shown. It is 65 ter number 1D5, page 1D025, and the Albanian page 1D036.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
19 MR. SAXON: Again, I apologise for the interruption. I simply
20 would like to ask whether it is absolutely necessary to show these
21 documents one by one to the witness to have him confirm that, yes, he
22 signed them on a particular day. The consolidated Rule 92 ter statement
23 that has already been admitted, at the beginning of that consolidated
24 statement, refers to Mr. Jusufi's prior statements, and I'm just
25 concerned about the health of the witness and how much extra time this
1 will take to give his testimony.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon. I see, Ms. Residovic, that
3 it mentions the statements of the 9th of February, 2003, and the 3rd of
4 October, 2004. Are there statements other than those that you want to
5 have the witness identify?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would show all the
7 statements that this witness has given, bearing in mind that -- about a
8 very important fact, important for the defence of my client, there are
9 large discrepancies. My esteemed colleague, Guenal Mettraux, have
10 already noticed, and we will -- that settled with the OTP, and we think
11 that the consolidated at least is not in line with what you, Your Honour,
12 have said, so we were not able to use it in order to examine this
14 JUDGE PARKER: I gather from what you are saying that you want to
15 identify with the witness certain discrepancies?
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Please continue.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Jusufi, is this your signature at this page?
20 A. This one here? Yes. This one, yes.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask that the witness
22 is shown 65 ter number 1D5, page 1D031, and in Albanian 1D042.
23 Q. Mr. Jusufi, you recognise your signature on this page as well; is
24 it so?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. In this statement that you have given, as well as in all the
2 statements that you have -- that you were giving after being heard --
3 after being interviewed by the OTP investigator, you have said that the
4 statement has been interpreted into you in the Albanian language, that it
5 is true, and that is a result of your best knowledge about the event that
6 has taken place. Have you said it in that way?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask that the witness
9 is shown his statement of 3rd of October, 2004. That is 65 ter number
10 1D6, page 1D0052, Albanian page 1D0067.
11 Q. Is this statement that you have given on the 3rd of October,
12 2004, your signature there?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Jusufi, that every time, at the request of the
15 investigator, you have signed all the pages of the statement that you
16 have given?
17 A. Yes. To the Tribunal, yes.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask that the witness
19 is shown the addendum to the statement of 9th of February, 2003. That is
20 number 65 ter number 1D7, page 1D0091, and the Albanian page is 1D0095.
21 Q. Mr. Jusufi, is this statement of yours that you have given on the
22 11th of August, 2006, also signed personally by you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Today, on the question of my learned colleague, confirms that you
25 have signed also the consolidated statement, that you have signed on
1 April 22, 2007; that is, P81, and the addendum to that statement, P82.
2 Those are all the statements that you have given since 2001 to the
3 investigators of the ICTY; is that so?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And each time, Mr. Jusufi, you have stated that everything stated
6 in your statement is true, and that is to the best of your knowledge; is
7 that so?
8 A. It is true. Yes, it is true.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
10 witness is shown 65 ter number 1D5, page 1D0028, Albanian page 1D0039.
11 Q. In the statement of 9th of February, 2003, you, Mr. Jusufi, have,
12 as it could be thereby seen, stated that on Saturday, that is,
13 paragraph 1, have seen five armoured cars, APC, and five covered trucks.
14 You said that you were in your yard and that you have seen the vehicles
15 going to the yard of the Orthodox Church. Have you said that?
16 A. No, I didn't mention any numbers. I only stated that I saw some.
17 That some might mean one, two, or three, but I didn't specify a certain
18 number. This is not correct.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you to show
20 the witness 65 ter number 1D10, page 1D0120, which is an addendum. And,
21 correction, you have given to the Prosecutor on the 22nd of April, which
22 have received the number P82 today.
23 Q. In paragraph 6, you have said, on the Saturday, at 2000 hours
25 "I've seen one APC and one covered truck."
1 Now, Mr. Jusufi, you have said that you have seen several or some
2 and that you never spoke of a number. Tell me, Mr. Jusufi, is it correct
3 that all this statement -- all the statements about what you have seen,
4 completely different?
5 A. No, only the number. I have an issue with the number. But the
6 fact is that I saw some, because at 8.00, 8.30, it was still light. You
7 can see, and I was out in the yard at that time near the gate, and the
8 gate of the church was open and I saw a convoy or police or soldiers.
9 They were mixed. They were both.
10 Q. But in -- there are facts in the statements that you have stated
11 and signed about -- and all the facts are completely different. You must
12 agree with me on that. Is it so?
13 A. No, no, they are not different. I am not changing anything here.
14 I am saying that I saw them. This is how it was. There is nothing that
15 I'm changing here.
16 Q. I would ask now for you to be shown 65 ter 1D5, page 1D0028,
17 paragraph 4. In the Albanian version, page 1D0039, paragraph 4. In this
18 statement of 9th of February, 2003, you have stated that you did not
19 sleep well that night and that you have awakened at around 6.00 in the
20 morning. You have also said that your wife has assisted you to sit in
21 your wheelchair. You have heard a noise of truck and Hermelins. You
22 have said to your wife and to your son to remain in the house, and you
23 have gotten out to see what was going on, and you have stayed there until
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask that the witness is
1 shown number 65 ter number 1D10, page 1D0120, paragraphs 11 and 12. That
2 is again number P8.2.
3 Q. In the correction of the statement you have given on the 22nd of
4 April, 2007, about this very fact, you have stated that you have awakened
5 between 5.00 and 6.00 in the morning and that you have said only to your
6 wife to remain in the house and that you will -- you were to see what was
7 going on. Is it correct that these two statements differ about the fact
8 -- about the fact when you have awakened and whom you have told to remain
9 in the house?
10 A. What you are putting to me about the time, whether it was 6.00 or
11 5.00 in the morning, I cannot confirm it to you that it was quarter to
12 6.00 or half past 5.00, but it was around that time, because usually I
13 wake up at 4.00. I cannot sleep well.
14 Q. On that specific day you are mentioning that "you didn't sleep
15 all night," it was the 11th of the eighth month. At least this how I --
16 please explain to me.
17 A. Okay. Can you repeat the question, please?
18 Q. I would like to say that you have given different statements on
19 9th of February, 2003, and on 22nd of April, 2007, not only about the
20 time but also about whom you have told to remain in the house. In the
21 first one, you have said to the wife and the son and in the second you
22 said only to the wife. Are these two statements different? That's what
23 I'm asking you, whether they are different?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. Tell me, Mr. Jusufi, once you have gotten out in the yard,
1 regardless whether it was in 5.00 or at 6.00, you have stayed in the yard
2 until 7.30; is that true?
3 A. That's true, this is correct.
4 Q. And you were alone in the yard; right?
5 A. Myself and my wife woke up, went outside. Whether it was 5.30 or
6 6.00 in the morning, that I don't know. The fact is that we went out.
7 She helped me a little bit. Then she went to do her things, her usual
8 work. I stayed near the main gate. And while I was there, near the main
9 gate, I saw that something was going on.
10 I have something more to say. I realised then that something was
11 going on. There was noise. I speak and understand Macedonian very well.
12 I could hear conversations. Some were going in the direction of the
13 church, some were going in the direction of the crossroads. There I
14 heard a name --
15 Q. Okay, Mr. Jusufi, I know that you told all of this to the -- in
16 the statements that you gave to the OTP. I would like to briefly respond
17 to the facts that I am about to point to you. Normally, if you have
18 something to add to it, the Chamber will allow you to give additional
20 JUDGE PARKER: Mrs. Residovic, before you do, I'm sorry, but I
21 think we should break now to allow the witness to have a further rest and
22 because of the time, and we will resume at 10 minutes past 6.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 6.14 p.m.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. Jusufi, before we adjourned, if you remember, you stated that
3 in the morning, your wife took you to the yard, that she returned inside,
4 and that you remained in the yard alone until you heard the noise, and
5 that around 7.30 you went back into the house. I interpreted what you
6 have stated, but I think that I did it correctly. Is that what you have
8 A. What you're saying now? Well, my wife did take me outside. She
9 went back in, and I could hear their conversations because I understand
10 Macedonian very well. To what I could hear, there were many of them.
11 Many of them passed by. They were going in the direction of the church,
12 maybe in the direction of the Brace house as well, but I heard many
13 things said.
14 Q. All right, thank you. Tell me just this: This is what I want to
15 know. So your wife was not with you throughout the entire period of time
16 in the yard; is that correct?
17 A. No, no, she was nearby. She was doing her usual work. She was
18 working in the garden, she was preparing the bread, baking the bread for
19 the house.
20 Q. All right, thank you.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask that the
22 witness is shown 65 ter number 1D5, page 1D0028, paragraph 5. The
23 Albanian page is 1D039, paragraph 5.
24 Q. Mr. Jusufi, in the statement made on the 2nd February 2003, you
25 have stated that you returned into the house around 8.00, that you saw
1 your son, who had woken up, and that he was still wearing his pyjamas.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask that the
3 witness is shown 65 ter number 1D8, page 1D0101, and Macedonian page
5 Q. The investigator of the ICTY, Arunkumar Balakrishnan, had an
6 interview with you on the 12th of October, 2005, and then you told him
7 that your son, who was wearing pyjamas and was asleep when the police
8 arrived, you said that Rami came down to the door just because of the
9 shootings that he heard. You have also stated that after your son died
10 and was taken for the burial, you never changed his clothes. It was
11 completely blood-stained.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to ask that
13 the witness is shown number 65 ter number 1D10, page 1D0121,
14 paragraph 17, that was admitted today as Prosecutor's Exhibit P8.2.
15 Q. Mr. Jusufi, these are the corrections that you entered last
16 month, 22nd of April, 2007, and then you stated, speaking about the
17 clothes that your son was wearing, you have stated the following:
18 "When I arrived into the house and heard the noise, and I thought
19 that the door exploded, my son had woken up because of the noise. He was
20 wearing pyjamas and he rapidly changed into his jeans."
21 Do you agree with me, Mr. Jusufi, that these statements are
22 different from one another?
23 A. No. What you said, that he came down, that is not correct. He
24 was not upstairs. He was in the room on the ground floor. This is the
25 sentence that is different. He did not come down. He was in the room on
1 the ground floor. He was sleeping in that room, and he was wearing his
2 pyjamas while he was sleeping. You said that he came down.
3 Q. Mr. Jusufi, you have stated, haven't you, that your son was
4 awokened [sic] by the blast. If I were to tell you that your wife stated
5 on page of transcript 443, line 22 to 24, that she personally had woken
6 your son up, would this differ again from what you are stating?
7 A. No, it doesn't differ at all. We were there, both of us, my wife
8 and myself, but the sentence you're reading is different. My wife and
9 myself were in the corridor when the door exploded. My wife said to my
10 son, "Wake up, son, because the door exploded." Both my wife and myself
11 heard the explosion. This is the truth.
12 Q. All right. In your statements to the Prosecutor of the ICTY, you
13 have also spoken about the persons who were inside your house at that
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
16 witness is shown 65 ter number 11 --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 1D5.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] ... page 1D0028, paragraph 3,
19 and Albanian page 1D0039, paragraph 3.
20 Q. In this statement that we have quoted many times, made on the 9th
21 of February 2003, in the paragraph 3, you have stated:
22 "I, my wife, and the older son, Rami, remained at home. Then two
23 of our relatives came, Muzafer, Imret -- and Imret Jusufi, to have a
24 breakfast with us."
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
1 witness is shown number 65 ter number 1D6, page 1D0055, paragraph 15, and
2 the Albanian page 1D0070, paragraph 15.
3 Q. That is your statement of 3rd of October, 2004. Then,
4 Mr. Jusufi, you have stated:
5 "Muzafer and his family, and I think the entire neighbourhood
6 that hadn't left before the Sunday morning, simply ran when they noticed
7 the police."
8 And then in paragraph 19, you stated:
9 "On the day of the event, the following persons were inside the
10 house: I, my wife Zenep, Muzafer, the son of my uncle. The reason why
11 we were still inside the house was that we could not run away anywhere
12 any longer because I was in my wheelchair."
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] About the same facts, I would
14 like that this statement number 65 ter number 1D8 is shown, page 1D0101,
15 Macedonian page 1D0102.
16 Q. On the 12th of October, 2005, in an interview with the
17 aforementioned investigator of the OTP of the ICTY, you have stated that:
18 "During the night, no one was in the house."
19 Muzafer Jusufi arrived at your house to have a breakfast and the
20 morning coffee around 7.00 -- around 7.30. You have also stated that you
21 made a mistake in your previous statement and that Imret Jusufi was not
22 there inside your house on the 12th of August, 2001?
23 A. That's correct, only Muzafer.
24 Q. Later in your statement --
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I ask that document number 65
1 ter 1D7, page 1D0092, is shown, and the Albanian page 1D0096.
2 Q. That is an addendum to the statement that you have given on the
3 11th of August about the events in 2003, you have stated that
4 Muzafer Jusufi was inside your house when the police arrived. Then you
5 have stated:
6 "My wife, my older son Rami, myself remained in the house. On
7 Sunday morning, two of my relatives came, not together but separately.
8 Imret Jusufi came to our house around 7.00 in the morning. He brought me
9 cigarettes and left immediately. Muzafer Jusufi came around 7.30, after
10 we invited him to have a breakfast with us. He was inside our house when
11 the police arrived. He hid behind the door during the entire time the
12 police was inside our house."
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Regarding this same fact, I ask
14 that the document 65 ter number 1D10 is shown, page 1D0120 -- 0020,
15 paragraph 10. That is the Prosecutor's Exhibit P8.2.
16 Q. You indicated that Muzafer arrived on the Sunday around 7.00 to
17 have a breakfast. You must notice, Mr. Jusufi, that your statements
18 about the presence of persons inside your house are again different. Is
19 that correct?
20 A. It is not different. Only Muzafer was in the house. I don't see
21 any difference. It must be a mistake. They both have the last name
22 Jusufi. Only Muzafer was in the house. I have no reason to lie here.
23 Even if there were two or three persons there, I would say there were two
24 or three persons, but the truth is that I only had Muzafer in the house,
25 and I had invited him to join us for breakfast. I told him, "Come,
1 Muzafer, to have a coffee with us." He is an old man. This is a
2 mistake, but I don't see it as a very big mistake.
3 Q. All right. Mr. Jusufi, I will ask you now several questions
4 about the death of your son.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
6 witness is shown document 65 ter 1D5, page 1D028, paragraph 6 and 7, and
7 Albanian page 1D039 [sic], going to 1D0040.
8 Q. In the statement you gave on the 9th of February, 2003, you have
9 stated that your son tried to close the door, but that all policemen shot
10 at him. You stated that your son was hit in the stomach and he was
11 bleeding heavily, and that you saw two bullet wounds on his body. You
12 were beside him when that happened.
13 Further, you stated that another policeman pushed the other wing
14 of the entrance door, and he almost made the door fall onto you. The
15 police officer said that they only had two persons in the house after he
16 saw me in the wheelchair and my son, who was lying, bleeding heavily.
17 "They did not see my wife and my relatives. I told them earlier
18 to hide."
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So I would ask that the witness
20 is, please, shown the document 65 ter number 1D6 in relation to this
21 fact, page 1D0057, paragraph --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I speak now?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- paragraphs 33 to 35.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I not allowed to speak here
1 JUDGE PARKER: You are, but what is happening is that
2 Ms. Residovic is quoting to you some statements and then asking you to
3 indicate whether or not they are different from each other. And you are
4 tending to answer that by saying, "Well, the truth of the matter is
5 this," and that you had no reason to lie or that you made a mistake about
6 some matter and so on.
7 So that's what's happening, and if you feel of need to comment on
8 a particular matter that is being quoted to you, you can do that.
9 Understand that. But what is being quoted to you are previous statements
10 that you have made to different people. I hope you understand what's
12 If you wish to speak, you may.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I? I just wanted to point out
14 the facts about the time from the pyjamas up to the door. He was asleep.
15 At that moment, his mother said to him, "Wake up, son." The door
16 exploded. It was a very powerful explosion, as if they threw a bomb at
17 it. They went to the door, at the entrance door. So he was in his
18 pyjamas, but he changed into normal clothes within five seconds. That
19 was very fast. He went to the door, entrance door, which was open, and
20 they were there. They were firing in the air, and as soon as they saw
21 him, because the door was wide open and he was trying to close it, they
22 immediately shot at him, and he immediately fell down.
23 This is the fact. I was there, myself, in the wheelchair, as I
24 am today, and I am very calm now when I'm telling you about this. As for
25 other rumours, whether it was like that or whether it was like this, that
1 I don't know. I'm telling you what happened. But it is in your hands.
2 You are the ones who will decide on this matter. I'm only here to tell
3 you what the truth is.
4 Now, whether he was at the door or further inside, that is too
5 many details. What is a fact here is that he was killed at the entrance
6 door. When the policemen came to the door and the door was this much
7 open, he kicked it open, the policeman, and I saw this with my own eyes,
8 and for a moment I thought that the door was going to fall on me. And
9 the door touched the feet of my son, because my son fell on his stomach,
10 and then I was just opposite to the policeman, and the policeman said to
11 me -- he said in the Macedonian language for us to understand, "Here are
12 only two people," and they turned their back. They didn't kill me. This
13 is the truth.
14 As for other things that you're asking me about, things that
15 you're putting to me, you know best what to make of those things. You
16 are the judges of the UN. This is the truth, as far as the killing of my
17 son is concerned.
18 So from the pyjamas until he changed his clothes, it was not more
19 than ten seconds, and shortly after he went to the entrance door, and
20 that's where they killed him. This is the truth. Now, whether it was
21 like this or whether it was like that, again, it is in your hands to
23 I apologise. I'm ill. I can go on and speak with Ms. Residovic
24 on this matter for hours and days, but what is important here is the act
25 of killing and why he was killed. There was no reason for him to be
1 killed. Excuse me for being this lengthy on this.
2 That night, on Saturday the 11th, when he returned from Skopje,
3 everybody was in panic, the women and children usually make panic, so I
4 said to my daughter-in-law, "Take the children to my daughter's house,"
5 because that is in a little bit of like a valley, there was no risk. And
6 then there was a suggestion for all of us to leave. But he had just
7 returned from Skopje and he also said, "Well, what if they leave and then
8 they are again sent back at the check-point?" I said to him, "Take the
9 children, seven children, and go there to Rijeka, and we will remain in
10 the house alone with your mother." And then he said to me, "Well, I
11 cannot leave you alone here. "This is the truth, and nothing can change
12 this truth. You are the honourable judges who will decide on this. This
13 is what deserves to be analysed. As for other things, I don't know what
14 to say.
15 I really apologise for being lengthy and for taking so much time,
16 but I'm very calm, believe me, I'm not nervous at all. I'm just ill, and
17 I just want to get over and done with this testimony as soon as possible
18 and leave.
19 And please, Mrs. Residovic, I only know how I'm able to sit here,
20 because I'm in this condition for years, and this condition has worsened
21 100 per cent as of 2001. I'm looking after four children with only 100
22 Euros per month. I have no other income. So please, Mrs. Residovic and
23 all the of you here, relieve me of further questions. You are the ones
24 who are leading the proceedings here, and, Your Honour, thank you for
25 giving me the opportunity to speak on this matter.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. What you've been saying is
2 well heard and understood by us.
3 Do understand, Mrs. Residovic is trying to see whether you can
4 explain why you seem to have said some things that are different from
5 what you now explain. So I think you should bear with her a little
6 longer as she reminds you of some of the things in your earlier
7 statements. You may be able to help her and us to understand why you
8 have differed over certain matters.
9 So carry on, please, Ms. Residovic, but do not lose --
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE PARKER: -- sight of the time.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with respect to your
13 decision this morning, I will have to show some additional differences in
14 the statements of Mr. Jusufi, and I assure you, Mr. Jusufi, that I
15 understand that it is not easy for you at all. You must understand that
16 the Court cannot reach a proper decision if I don't ask all the questions
17 that I need to ask.
18 Q. Mr. Jusufi --
19 A. Yes, you can ask me.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] A while ago -- I apologise. I
21 just need to see.
22 I was just showing you 65 ter number 1D6, page 1D057, paragraphs
23 33 and 35, and Albanian page 1D0072, paragraphs 33 and 35.
24 Q. In your statement of 3rd of October, 2003 -- 2004, you have
25 stated that your son, after having been hit, he fell immediately, and
1 falling down he closed the door. Soon, the door was opened. You have
2 stated that the person who was there said that somebody was looking
3 inside, and when he saw you and your wife, he stated that there were only
4 two people inside.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I now ask that the document 65
6 ter number 1D7, page 190092 is shown, Albanian page 19 -- 1D0096.
7 Q. That is the correction that you entered on the 11th of August,
8 2006, when you again noted that the police officers did not see your wife
9 and your relative. Do you agree with me that all these statements that I
10 have shown you are different from one another, especially with regards to
11 the moment when you saw the police officers, where you were, and whom
12 have the police seen with you together? Do you agree that they're
13 different from one another?
14 A. I don't understand what you are putting to me. The police saw me
15 or my wife? He didn't see my wife. The policeman saw only me. The
16 policeman saw only myself, not my wife. When he kicked the door open,
17 the door was ajar, and then I was facing him. It was then that he kicked
18 the door. And when it was open, he said, "There are only two people
20 Q. Thank you. I would ask --
21 A. My wife was inside. She was in the room.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would now ask that
23 the witness is shown 65 ter number 608, page 7. If this photograph is
24 not on the computer, I will ask for the assistance of the usher to
25 display it on the ELMO.
1 Okay, the photograph has appeared.
2 Q. My learned colleague, the Prosecutor, during the direct
3 examination, asked you to recognise some photographs. Could you tell me
4 if you could recognise your deceased son on this photograph, Rami?
5 A. Yes, I can, Rami Jusufi.
6 Q. Could you confirm that this photograph is made in the house of
7 your daughter, in the Durmishi mehalla?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. That happened on August 13?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Before your son was buried in the yard of your daughter?
12 A. Not in the yard. In -- in the garden.
13 Q. In the garden, okay. As far as I remember, you also said that
14 these photographs were made by the local priest, the hoxha.
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. These photographs were given by you to the Prosecutor after you
17 got them from your neighbour, Sulejman, called Suljo; is it so?
18 A. Suljo?
19 Q. Sulejman.
20 A. I forgot who brought them. I forgot it.
21 Q. Okay, okay, never mind. Mr. Jusufi, the OTP investigator have
22 shown you these photographs when he was in Ljuboten last month and when
23 you gave the addendums and corrections to your previous statement; is it
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. This photograph was taken after your son was already dead; is it
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask that the witness
5 is shown 65 ter number 1D4, page 1D0021.
6 Q. These photographs have been shown to your wife as well, and your
7 wife - bearing in mind that this is about a photograph that was on the
8 65 ter list of the Prosecutor under the number 609, and it is number
9 0501-6265 - your wife said that, as it is stated here in a special
10 sentence, after the picture was shown to the witness, she said that she
11 recognises her son on the photograph, and she recognises his wounds.
12 In the description of the photograph that you can see in column
13 2, it is said that this photograph is made before the death of
14 Rami Jusufi.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask that document 1D4
16 is shown, page 1D0124.
17 Q. As you already said, Mr. Jusufi, you were also shown these
18 photographs last month?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D0124, 1D4, 1D-0124. I
21 apologise. We have some mistake.
22 Let's not dwell on this too much. We would ask for the
23 assistance of the usher to show this document on the ELMO.
24 I apologise. It seems to be the 1D10. 1D0021.
25 Q. Now we have the correct document on our screens, and under the
1 number 608 we can see that the photo -- the photographs has been shown to
2 you, and that you then said that you see this wounds, and you also said
3 that he was put in that position, and that is he was put in that position
4 by your mother and your relative in order to stop the bleeding.
5 Did you say that, Mr. Jusufi?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, "by the mother," not
7 "by your mother."
8 A. Yes. His mother and Muzafer, who helped her. Mostly it was his
9 mother. I didn't even see that. Couldn't see it.
10 Q. But in the moment when these photographs were taken, in that
11 position, you said that he was already dead, and those two statements
12 must differ from one another. Is it true?
13 A. What do you mean, they differ? Can you repeat or highlight the
14 difference for me, please.
15 Q. Your wife said that that photograph was taken while your son was
16 still alive, and you, as it is written in the notes of the Prosecutor,
17 said that the photograph shows the position in which your son was put by
18 your wife and your relative in order to stop his bleeding. Today, you
19 have said to His Honours that these photographs have been taken on the
20 13th in the house of your daughter when he was already dead.
21 A. He wasn't photographed on the 11th, but on the 13th. On the
22 12th, in the evening, very late at night, we took the body to my
23 daughter's house, and the next day the hoxha, the Muslim priest, came and
24 took his photograph. The photo wasn't taken in our home. Maybe she
25 didn't know that. She wasn't in her right mind when that happened. I
1 don't know what she has said, but I know it very well.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Okay, thank you.
3 I would ask now that the witness is shown document 65 ter number
4 1D5, page 1D0028, paragraph 5, Albanian version page 1D0039, paragraph 5.
5 Q. In this statement of the 9th of February, 2003, you, Mr. Jusufi,
6 said that among the police officers, you have recognised Dusan Kruskarov
7 from Ljuboten. Is it correct?
8 A. That's correct, I recognise them by the voice.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask that document
10 65 ter number 1D18 is shown, page 1D0262 and 0263.
11 JUDGE PARKER: I'm afraid, Ms. Residovic, we're going to have to
12 deal with that tomorrow. We've reached 7.00, and in fairness to the
13 witness and the need of the accused to be back in the detention centre,
14 we must stop now.
15 And we must ask you, sir, if you could return for the evidence to
16 finish tomorrow afternoon. We will continue at 2.15. I think you'll
17 find that much of the evidence is gone, so you shouldn't have to look
18 forward to too great a time.
19 Well, we adjourn now, and we resume tomorrow at 2.15.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7:00 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of May,
22 2007, at 2.15 p.m.