Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1816

1 Monday, 11 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning to everybody and Ms. Regue. How are

7 you this morning?

8 MS. REGUE: Good. Thanks, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the

10 sheet given to you now, sir.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, please sit down.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

18 MS. REGUE: Good morning, Your Honour, the Prosecution would like

19 to call witness M-019, Mr. Vehbi Bajrami.

20 Examination by Ms. Regue:

21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bajrami.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have a technical problem. We

23 ask that we wait for five minutes or something.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Apparently there is a problem with interpretation

25 from what I'm hearing. I don't know what that is yet.

Page 1817

1 THE INTERPRETER: It is resolved now.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me, it's okay, sir. Can you

3 hear me now?

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. It's now coming through to me. I'm not sure

5 where the problem is or whether it has been cured. I just heard that it

6 was. But the sound it is now operational.

7 Can you hear what is being said, translated?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, sir, I can.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

10 Well, I think you may proceed now, Ms. Regue.

11 MS. REGUE: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Bajrami.

13 A. Good morning, ma'am.

14 Q. Mr. Bajrami, do you recall providing a statement to the Office of

15 the Prosecutor in February 2003?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Do you recall meeting with a representative from the Registry who

18 certified your statement in August 2006?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall meeting with myself and other colleague in Ljuboten

21 in April of this year and providing an additional brief statement?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Did you have the opportunity to read both documents before coming

24 here today?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1818

1 Q. Mr. Bajrami, are you satisfied that its contents are correct and

2 accurate?

3 A. Yes, it's correct.

4 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I'd like to tender the 2003 statement

5 and also the addendum of 2007.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Is this pursuant to Rule 92 bis?

7 MS. REGUE: The first statement is pursuant to Rule 92 bis, Your

8 Honour. The second is an addendum.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. They will received together as each

10 part of the one exhibit.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The statement will become P247.1 and the addendum

12 will become Exhibit P247.2, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 MS. REGUE: The witness, Mr. Bajrami, is an ethnic Albanian. He

15 was born in Ljuboten where he was residing during the relevant time-period

16 of the indictment. Between 10 to 11 August 2001 Mr. Bajrami heard

17 shooting, shelling and a sniper shots directed at the village of Ljuboten.

18 On 12 August 2001, members of the Macedonian armed forces entered

19 Ljuboten. Soon after, Macedonian police, including members of the Lions,

20 entered the yard of Adem Ametovski house in which basement the witness and

21 a number of other men were sheltering. They were searched, forced to lie

22 down, and beaten severely by the Macedonian police.

23 The witness saw an armoured vehicle with an anti-aircraft heavy

24 weapon mounted on the top. The men were ordered out to the main gate

25 where they were again made to lie down. They were beaten and mistreated.

Page 1819

1 And the witness heard the sound of constant intensive shooting around

2 him. The witness's brother, Sulejman Bajrami was shot dead at this time.

3 The men were forced to march to Brace's house. They were abused

4 and mistreated whilst walking to Brace's house and on their arrival

5 there. They were subsequently transported to Mirkovci police station

6 where they were again beaten by policemen. The witness was forced to sign

7 a statement declaring that was found in possession of fire-arms.

8 Two days after, the witness was brought before a judge ever the

9 Skopje Court and then taken to Sutka prison where he remained for

10 approximately four months.

11 Your Honours, I have binders for Your Honours and also for my

12 learned friend, if the usher --

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 MS. REGUE: I would like to call 65 ter 152. And, if possible,

15 not shown outside the courtroom. It's tab 1 of the binder.

16 Q. Witness, do you see the Macedonian version of the document on the

17 right side of your screen?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If you can please focus on the upper left corner, do you see

20 Ministry of Interior of Republic of Macedonia, the first line?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If we move three lines below, do you read police station Mirkovci,

23 then Angel Petkovski, 14 August 2001, Skopje?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If we move in the centre of the document, do you read the title,

Page 1820

1 Official Note, number 1194, and then persons taken to court and handed

2 over to investigative prison, Sutka?

3 A. Yes, I do see that.

4 Q. If we move a bit down, do you see five names?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you see your name in the first bullet point?

7 A. Yes, I do. Bajrami Vebi.

8 Q. If we read the paragraph below it says: "They were taken to the

9 basic court in Skopje II where they were questioned by Judge Velce

10 Pancevski with the decision number 436/01. The judge determined custody

11 measure of 30 days to the above-mentioned persons, and after this they

12 were handed over to commander Zivko in the investigative prison, Sutka."

13 Do you read this, Mr. Bajrami?

14 A. On which side? On the right or on the left.

15 THE INTERPRETER: And could the counsel be asked to slow down,

16 please.

17 MS. REGUE: Yes.

18 Q. Just the paragraph below the names.

19 A. To the names.

20 Q. Below the names.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Bajrami, were these people with you in Mirkovci police

23 station?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were these people taken together with you to Skopje Court and then

Page 1821

1 to Sutka prison?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I will seek to tender this document into

4 evidence.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P248, Your Honours.

7 MS. REGUE: I would like to call Exhibit P00046, page 48. Tab 2

8 in the court binder.

9 Q. Mr. Bajrami, do you see the Macedonian version on the right side

10 of your screen?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. If you could please look at the upper left corner, do you read

13 Ministry of Interior, OVR-OOR Cair?

14 A. On the right or on the left side, you mean?

15 Q. On the left side, excuse me.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you read below: 12 August 2001, Skopje?

18 A. I can't see it.

19 Q. The numbers, do you see just below the numbers, 12 --

20 A. Yes, yes, now yes. Yeah, 12, 2001.

21 Q. If could you please read in the centre of the document in capital

22 letters there is a title. It says "certificate on temporary seized

23 possessions." Do you see this?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then below it read: On day of 12 August 2001, at the police

Page 1822

1 station Mirkovci from the person Bajrami Vebi and then we see some

2 personal information of you. Your date of birth. And then just one line

3 below it says: "Seized the following possessions in temporary "custody,"

4 and then we move to number 1, it says, one automatic rifle, Thomson,

5 calibre 45, and 100 bullets?

6 A. This is not true.

7 Q. So have you ever been in possession of this weapon and this

8 ammunition, Mr. Bajrami?

9 A. No, I never had it. I have been living in Cair for 32 years and I

10 never had a weapon.

11 Q. Mr. Bajrami, if we could please scroll down the document so we can

12 see the signature on the bottom left corner. Do you see a signature in

13 the bottom left corner of the document, Mr. Bajrami?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is this your signature?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you sign this document voluntarily?

18 A. No. I was forced. It was under duress. He told me if you don't

19 sign it, I will put the Kalashnikov at your head.

20 Q. Who told you that?

21 A. The police at Mirkovci.

22 Q. Thanks.

23 MS. REGUE: Now, Your Honours, I would like to move to Exhibit

24 P46, pages 64 to 66. And with Your Honour's leave, I will work in hard

25 copy due to the bad quality of the Macedonian version with this document.

Page 1823


2 MS. REGUE: And if could I have the usher's assistance in

3 providing the witness with the Macedonian version.

4 Also, in order to speed up the proceedings you will see that the

5 numbered the paragraphs, the English and the Macedonian and also I

6 highlighted what I'm going to put to the witness.

7 Q. Mr. Bajrami, if you could please look at the first page that you

8 have in front of you. Do you see in the upper part, in the centre 14

9 August 2001 and then your name?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then on the left, Skopje, Velce Pancevski?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Bajrami, if you can move to the second page, also the second

14 page in the English document. I'm going to read to you the first

15 paragraph. It says: "It started at 1445 hours pursuant to Article 27,

16 from ZKP and advise on the right to use his native language, the accused

17 said that he speaks and understand Macedonian language. Also he said that

18 he will give his statement in Macedonian language."

19 Mr. Bajrami, did you state to the judge that you wish to give your

20 statement in Macedonian?

21 A. No, No, this is not true.

22 Q. Could we move, please, to the second paragraph. I'm going to read

23 it to you as well: "Pursuant to Article 210, Paragraph 2 from "ZKP the

24 accused was informed that OJO Skopje sent a request for implementation of

25 investigation and proposal to impose a detention" - then we see some

Page 1824

1 numbers - "because of the well-based suspicion he committed a criminal act

2 of terrorist."

3 Mr. Bajrami, for the record, you ever commit an act of terrorist?

4 A. Never in my life.

5 Q. Have you ever been a member of a terrorist group?

6 A. Never.

7 MS. REGUE: If we could please move to the fourth paragraph. The

8 highlighted sentence reads: "Although I was and I was beaten the police,

9 I can give a statement, I want to speak."

10 Q. Mr. Bajrami, did you state to the judge that you had been beaten

11 by the police?

12 A. The police, yes.

13 Q. Now, if we can move to the seventh paragraph, the next highlighted

14 sentence, Mr. Bajrami, it reads: "The accused stated I accept this

15 attorney to represent me as my defence attorney."

16 Mr. Bajrami, do you recall an attorney being present in the

17 courtroom when you were in front of the judge?

18 A. No. I saw someone being there but nobody indicated to me that it

19 was my lawyer.

20 Q. Did you say to the judge that you accepted this person as your

21 attorney?

22 A. No.

23 MS. REGUE: Could we move to paragraph 9 in the English version we

24 are already in the second page, still the first one in the Macedonian.

25 Q. I will read it to you Mr. Bajrami: "I have noticeable injuries on

Page 1825

1 my face, in my [indiscernible], and my right eye is closed, I can see only

2 through my left eye."

3 Mr. Bajrami, is this is accurate description of the injuries that

4 you were suffering that day?

5 A. Yes. It is correct.

6 Q. Based on what you stated two paragraphs above, were these injuries

7 a result of the police beatings?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Then if we move to paragraph 10 we can see Beqir Ramadani is my

10 brother.

11 Mr. Bajrami, is Beqir Ramadani your brother?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever that to the judge?

14 A. No, no, I didn't say that.

15 Q. Mr. Bajrami, if you could please look at the next page?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. REGUE: It's the last page in the English version, Your

18 Honours.

19 Q. I will read to you the two lines which are highlighted: "We were

20 beaten by the local residents while we walk." And then one line below it

21 says "when I was brought in the police they did not beat me."

22 Mr. Bajrami, did you say this to the investigative judge?

23 A. I don't understand. I'm not very clear. Can you repeat it?

24 Q. Sure. In your statement that you allegedly gave to the judge it

25 says: "We were beaten by the local residents while we walk." And then it

Page 1826

1 says: "When I was brought in the police, they," meaning the police,"did

2 not beat me." And my question was: " Did you stated this to the judge?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 MS. REGUE: If we could move to the bottom of the document just

5 below the word "accuse."

6 Q. Mr. Bajrami, do you see a signature there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is this your signature, Mr. Bajrami?

9 A. No.

10 MS. REGUE: Thanks, Your Honours. I have no further questions.

11 JUDGE PARKER: You did ask the witness about the document at

12 tab 2. Do I correctly understand that's part of Exhibit P46? Thank you.

13 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honour. Could I please ask a clarification

14 to the witness. Now reading the transcript, I'm not sure whether it came

15 out clear.



18 Q. Mr. Bajrami, do you remember that you answer that you didn't state

19 to the judge that you had been beaten by the local residents?

20 A. I didn't say that.

21 Q. Also, you didn't say that when you were brought in the police, the

22 police did not beat you?

23 A. No, I didn't, because it's a fact that the police beat us.

24 Q. Okay. Can I conclude from your answer that what is written in

25 here is not correct?

Page 1827

1 A. You mean here in the statement?

2 Q. Yes. The two sentences that I just repeated to you.

3 A. They are not correct.

4 MS. REGUE: Thanks, Your Honours. Now I have no further

5 questions.

6 JUDGE PARKER: I'm still tracking the exhibits. The document at

7 tab 1.

8 MS. REGUE: That was a 65 ter number that we tendered today.

9 JUDGE PARKER: You sought to tender it today that. That was --

10 and that's Exhibit P278 -- 248.

11 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honours, 248. I was checking the

12 transcript.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

14 Ms. Residovic.

15 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Could you move the -- thank you.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bajrami. My name is Edina

19 Residovic, and together with my colleague Mr. Guenael Mettraux, I appear

20 for Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

21 Mr. Bajrami, as you have told my learned friend, you made a

22 statement to an investigator of the OTP, and you gave addenda to that

23 statement which were accepted today; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You said that you were born in Ljuboten and you are the son of

Page 1828

1 Aziz Bajrami; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. There were ten children in your family, six brothers, you, and

4 three sisters; is that correct?

5 A. We are seven brothers, or used to be seven brothers, and three

6 sisters.

7 Q. Yes, that was precisely what I said. Counting you, there was

8 seven brothers and three sisters.

9 A. We used to be. We are no longer seven.

10 Q. In 2001, there were two houses owned by your family in the

11 village, an old one and a new one; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. Yes, we have two houses.

13 Q. Your father was a farmer, and your mother a housewife; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. In 2001, only your sister Ramiza, who was married, was not living

17 in the household with you while all the rest of you were still living

18 together; is that correct?

19 A. That is not correct. Because my brother Rafiz was in Italy.

20 Shefajet was in Kosovo.

21 Q. Your family had a modest lifestyle. One could say that life was

22 difficult. Would that be correct?

23 A. I don't understand what you're putting to me.

24 Q. I'm asking you whether it's correct that at that time you lived

25 quite modestly in your family. You were not very well off; is that

Page 1829

1 correct?

2 A. It is not correct. We were, I would say, living a normal life.

3 Q. If your mother in her statement to the court in Skopje said that

4 you lived with a quite modest lifestyle, that would not be quite correct,

5 would it?

6 A. We lived well, I would say. It was an average life. My mother

7 now is dead. I don't know what she said in the court.

8 Q. Very well. Thank you. When you were released from detention you

9 made several statements to various international organisations. Would it

10 be correct to say that you made your first statement on the 1st of

11 January, 2002 to representatives of the OSCE?

12 A. I don't remember. Maybe it's true, but I can't remember.

13 Q. You made another statement to the members of the International

14 Committee of the Red Cross; is that correct?

15 A. I don't know. I have forgotten. Maybe it is, but I don't

16 remember.

17 Q. When you made a statement to the investigator of The Hague

18 Tribunal on the 8th of February, 2003, you signed that statement; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, in 2003. On the 8th of February, yes, it's correct.

21 Q. You speak only Albanian and Macedonian; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. But Macedonian I understand very little. I speak Albanian

23 mostly.

24 Q. The statement you gave to investigators of the Tribunal is one

25 that you signed in English, and it was interpreted to you, or translated

Page 1830

1 to you into Albanian later on; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Bajrami, would it be true to say that in 2001, in view of your

4 occupation and your age, you didn't have any special knowledge of the

5 structure of the army and police of the Republic of Macedonia? Would that

6 be true to say?

7 A. I don't understand what you are saying. What do you mean?

8 Q. What I'm asking you, Mr. Bajrami, is whether it's correct that you

9 don't have any special knowledge of the structure of the army of the

10 Republic of Macedonia and the structure of the police of the Republic of

11 Macedonia. Is this correct?

12 A. I'm very sorry, but, again, I can't understand what you are

13 putting to me.

14 Q. Well, let me ask you the following: Do you know what organs and

15 units exist in the army of the Republic of Macedonia?

16 A. You mean that I served in or what? I was in the army, this is

17 what you are asking me?

18 Q. No. What I'm asking you is whether you are aware of the

19 structure, the competences, and the organs in the army of the Republic of

20 Macedonia. Are you aware of this or not?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. Is it also correct that you don't know what the structure,

23 responsibilities and powers are of individual organs within the Ministry

24 of the Interior of the Republic of Macedonia?

25 A. Again, I don't understand what is your question.

Page 1831

1 Q. My question is whether you, Mr. Bajrami, are familiar with the way

2 in which the police is organised; that is, the Ministry of the Interior of

3 the Republic of Macedonia. Do you know what organs it consists of and

4 what their competences are?

5 A. I'm sorry, but I fail to understand your point.

6 Q. Very well. We'll move on, and I'll put other questions to you

7 which I hope you will understand.

8 As a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, you probably know that

9 in the Republic of Macedonia it is judges, investigating judges in the

10 courts who carry out investigations; is this correct?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Very well. So you do not know who is in charge of conducting

13 investigations in the Republic of Macedonia? Is that what you want to

14 say?

15 A. What investigations are you talking about?

16 Q. Any investigation.

17 A. But it is known who is the president of the country, who is doing

18 what in the ministry. These are things that are known.

19 Q. You said in your statement, concerning what happened to you in the

20 court and in the prison, something. Is it correct, Mr. Bajrami, that you

21 don't know to whom the policemen in the court or the guards in the prison

22 belong and who their superior is, who their chief is?

23 A. In Sutka -- about Sutka, I know. I know who was the police chief,

24 but I don't know who the police chief of the police in the court was.

25 Q. In the Sutka prison, you knew who the prison commander was; is

Page 1832

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes. Zivko was the commander. But I don't know -- only the name

3 I know.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... know who his commander was,

5 who his superior was; is that correct?

6 A. The chief of whom? Zivko was a director of the prison in -- Sutka

7 prison. This, I know.

8 Q. Very well. Then we'll move on and I'll ask you about things you

9 may have more knowledge of.

10 Is it correct that two months before the events you testified

11 about, because of the conflict with Albanian extremist groups, the army of

12 the Republic of Macedonia took up positions around the village of

13 Ljuboten; is that correct?

14 A. The Macedonian and -- police and army, yes, they took up

15 positions. That is correct.

16 Q. Are you also aware that on the 10th of August, 2001, in the

17 vicinity of Ljuboten, in Ljubotenski Bacila an extremist Albanian

18 organisation laid a land-mine and eight members of the army were killed

19 and several wounded?

20 A. I don't know about that.

21 Q. On the 10th of August, you were at the market in Skopje; is that

22 correct?

23 A. No. I was in the village. On the 10th of August, I was in

24 Ljuboten village.

25 Q. Is it correct that because you knew a land-mine had been laid, you

Page 1833

1 and your family went to the basement to take shelter there, for safety; is

2 that correct?

3 A. That is not correct. It's not correct that we knew, we had

4 information about the mine.

5 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Bajrami, why, then, were you hiding in the

6 cellars?

7 A. We were hiding because of the shelling which was continuous.

8 That's why we had to take shelter somewhere. We were afraid of the

9 shelling of the Macedonian army. They were firing at the village.

10 Q. And you, like the other villagers, knew that this was a reaction

11 to the land-mine which had been laid. All the media in Macedonia informed

12 the public of this, so were you aware of it?

13 A. No. I don't know who laid any mine. I didn't speak about the

14 land-mine. You asked me -- why we were hiding, and I explained to you

15 that we were hiding because of the continuous shelling. But as to the

16 land-mine, I don't know anything about that.

17 Q. Tell me, Mr. Bajrami, were the houses in the village grouped by

18 family?

19 A. I don't know. I didn't go to visit other families. I didn't know

20 what the families were doing at that time, whether they were grouped or

21 not. I was looking after my own family. I didn't go to check what the

22 others were doing, because you couldn't go out because of the bullets

23 which were coming in hails.

24 Q. Let me clarify. I'm not referring to that day. I'm asking you a

25 general question. Is it true that in the village of Ljuboten the houses

Page 1834

1 were built in such a way that a family - for example, Jusufovski Zendeli

2 and others - lived in a small area in the same neighbourhood. Is that

3 what the situation was in the village of Ljuboten?

4 A. I explained to you. I didn't go out that day to see what the

5 other families were doing, because there was shelling coming from all

6 sides and the village was surrounded by the police and the army, so I

7 couldn't go out and look at the other families.

8 Ljuboten was, as I said, surrounded by the police and the army and

9 we couldn't go out. We couldn't leave our hiding places or our houses.

10 Q. I understand very well what you are telling me now, but what you

11 have just told me is not an answer to my question. I would like to ask

12 you to listen carefully and to answer me, if you can.

13 My question was the following: In the village of Ljuboten, do

14 families live in the same neighbourhood, all the brothers and cousins from

15 a single family build their houses next to each other, so that, for

16 example, the Jusufi family lives close to the church, another family lives

17 close to the mosque and so on and so forth. Did you understand me? Is it

18 correct that this is how families live in the village of Ljuboten?

19 A. Yes. There are families that live together; but there are

20 families which live separately.

21 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Bajrami, that the Zendeli family lives close to

22 the cemetery in the village. To be more precise, that family lives on the

23 left side of the road leading from the school towards the cemetery. Is

24 that the area where the Zendeli family lives?

25 A. But there are many Zendeli families. Which one are you asking me

Page 1835

1 about? There isn't a single one by that name.

2 Q. I'm asking you whether one of those Zendeli families, if there are

3 several of them, lives not far from the cemetery on the left side of the

4 road leading from the school towards the cemetery, in the village of

5 Ljuboten?

6 A. Yes. Sulejman lives in the vicinity of the school; that is

7 correct.

8 Q. Thank you. When you heard about the shelling in the village on

9 the 10th of August, did you simultaneously learn that three armed persons

10 wearing black uniforms had entered the village?

11 A. Which day are you asking me?

12 Q. The 10th of August, 2001.

13 A. This is not true.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Exhibit

15 P151.

16 Q. If you look at this document, Mr. Bajrami, you can see it's an

17 Official Note dated August 2001, and in it one can read that the

18 authorised official who was close to Ljuboten reported that on the road

19 from the school to the cemetery on the left-hand side of the road, towards

20 the Zendeli family houses three persons in black uniforms were observed

21 who were armed with automatic weapons.

22 Would this information perhaps jog your memory, sir, and remind

23 you that on that day three armed persons entered the village?

24 A. There weren't armed people in Ljuboten. This is not true.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In line 21 -- or rather page 21,

Page 1836

1 line 4 where it says August 2001, it should say the 10th of August, 2001.

2 Q. Are you aware that on the 10th of August a large number of

3 families left Ljuboten?

4 A. On the 10th of August, 2001, this is what you're asking me about?

5 Q. Yes, precisely so.

6 A. It was a Friday, wasn't it? Was it Friday?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Maybe. But I don't know. Maybe it is true, but I can't tell you

9 for sure.

10 Q. From the 10th to the 12th, as you testified, you were at home?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the Ahmeti house; is that correct?

13 A. Adem Ametovski, yes.

14 Q. Mr. Bajrami, were you in the house all the time, or did you go out

15 from time to time and observe the situation?

16 A. I stayed in the house. I couldn't leave the house because of the

17 shelling and the bullets that came like they were a hail. The village was

18 surrounded by all sides. It was impossible to leave. They shot from

19 Malisten, Ljubance, Rastak, from our mountain, the army fired or shelled

20 the village and fired their arms at it.

21 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Bajrami, that in the basement in which you

22 were, there were boxes next to the door so that one could not leave the

23 basement. They were there for safety.

24 A. We were in the basement, and the police asked us to leave the

25 house through the window. The door was not closed or locked or anything.

Page 1837

1 The police asked to us leave through the window.

2 Q. You say that if someone were to testify before this Court that the

3 door was secured with crates for your safety that that person would not be

4 telling the truth; is that correct?

5 A. I don't know what you mean "with crates."

6 Q. Boxes, crates. Was the door barricaded with such things or not?

7 A. I know that there were boxes with clothes. But the door was not

8 blocked. It was not blocked.

9 Q. Very well. Thank you. You say you did not leave the cellar from

10 the 10th to the 12th of August; is that correct?

11 A. [No audible response]

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now previously move into

13 private session, please.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1838

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1839

1 Q. Is it true, Mr. Bajrami, and correct, that you personally did not

2 go to the new house or to other parts of the village; is that correct?

3 A. It is correct.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown 65

5 ter 1396 --

6 THE INTERPRETER: 1D96, interpreter's correction.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 1D0430. Page 1D0430.

8 Q. You said that you were the son of Aziz; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. In the statement your father gave to the investigators of The

11 Hague Tribunal, in point 30 he says: "Like I said before [In English]

12 Nevaip was in the new house and Vebi were going back and forth. Because

13 of this and the time I can't really say anymore the precise flow of the

14 movement. At the end Vebi and Mevludin went also to Adem's basement."

15 [Interpretation] Do you agree with me, Mr. Bajrami, that your

16 father's statement differs from what you have just said?

17 A. I didn't go out of the basement to walk over the streets of the

18 neighbourhood. I am telling you that we stayed in Adem's basement on the

19 10th and 11th. I didn't go out to visit the village. I remained in the

20 basement of Adem's house.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown in

22 this same document pages 1D0428 and 1D0429 simultaneously.

23 Your Honours, as these are statements which we have only in

24 English, I am reading this part of the statement as best I can so that the

25 interpreters can interpret this to the witness into Albanian.

Page 1840

1 Could we have -- yes.

2 Q. Your father also said the following, the last sentence on page

3 0428 says: "[In English] [Previous translation continues] ... New house

4 is the neighbour house of [Interpretation] doesn't say who. [In English]

5 In 2001 the new house was nearly finished. Xhelal was working in this

6 house. The house was not really occupied. It was only used by the young

7 people if they wanted, but in 2001 Xhelal normally slept regularly in the

8 old house. In the night from Tuesday, 9 August, to Friday, 10 August

9 Xhelal slept with his cousin, Kadri and Bajram Jashari. Also my son

10 Nevaip was in the new house. Later on Sunday I saw Nevaip in the basement

11 of Adem. I don't know when Nevaip went there. My son Vebi and Mevludin,

12 they were going back and forth between the old where we were hiding and

13 the small barn in the new house."

14 [Interpretation] Is it correct, Mr. Bajrami, that this part of

15 your father's statement differs from what you said in your testimony

16 before this Court?

17 A. As Vebi, I disagree with that. What my father has stated, let him

18 state. I'm telling you where I was. I didn't go out of the basement

19 to -- to walk on the streets of the village. I'm here today and I'm

20 telling you what I saw that day. I cannot tell you what I didn't see.

21 He's my father. Let him tell you what he saw. I want to abide by my

22 statement. I want to tell you what I went through and what I saw, what I

23 eye-witnessed. As to Nevaip and others, I don't want to speak about

24 that. Whoever is here to testify to what he has seen with his own eyes.

25 Q. All right. I would now like to ask you some questions about other

Page 1841

1 matters you mentioned in your statement to the Prosecutor in the statement

2 admitted into evidence today.

3 When the describing the death of your brother Sulejman, you said

4 that you heard a conversation between Sulejman and one of the persons in

5 uniform before he was hit; is that correct?

6 A. That is correct. When they asked us to leave the basement, the

7 police.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move back into private

9 session, please.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1842











11 Page 1842 redacted. Private session.















Page 1843

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. If I were to suggest to you, Mr. Bajrami, that the real truth is

13 actually that your brother was killed when he tried to escape, would you

14 agree with me on that?

15 A. I don't know that he tried to escape. I didn't see him attempting

16 to escape. They beat my brother. Then we heard the shots. When they

17 asked us to get up to take to Ljubanci, then I saw my brother was killed.

18 And my brother told them "Don't beat me, because I was injured when I was

19 serving in the Macedonian army" and then they said to him, "We will give

20 you a pension for that and we will cure you." Then we saw my brother dead

21 on the way to Ljubanci, when we were going towards Ljubanci.

22 Q. All that you said was already told in your statement to the

23 Prosecutor. In that statement you also said that only your ID was taken

24 from you; is that correct?

25 A. [No interpretation]

Page 1844

1 Q. I apologise. Did you say in your statement that only your ID was

2 taken from you. Is it so?

3 A. Not the passport. A certificate. My wrist-watch, they were about

4 to break my arm when trying to rob me of my wrist. But not the passport,

5 the identity card. And the tobacco and, as I said, the wrist-watch.

6 Q. Can you tell us what was taken away from Mevludin?

7 A. I don't know about Mevludin. But they took a lot of money from my

8 brother Nevaip and from my father and from Adem and the others. I

9 personally didn't have any money on me. I told you what they took away

10 from me, but they took away a lot of money from my father and my brother

11 and the wife of my brother, my mother as well. They got a lot of money

12 from us and looted a lot of stuff.

13 Q. Mr. Bajrami, Mr. Bajrami is that correct that while walking by the

14 Macedonian houses in the village of Ljuboten some of the civilians also

15 attacked you and that you noticed a woman shouting at you?

16 A. No, it wasn't the civilians who beat us, but the uniformed

17 policemen. The woman who was shouting, I don't know her last name. And

18 she said, "Why haven't you killed all of them, you motherfuckers," and

19 then they started beating us even more after those words.

20 Q. Mr. Bajrami, is it true that your brothers Rafiz and Shefajet were

21 the members of the NLA?

22 A. No. In 2001 Rafiz Bajrami was in Italy, and the other was in

23 Kosovo.

24 Q. Are you aware that Shefajet was a member of the -- of Commander

25 Teli's group?

Page 1845

1 A. No. I don't know that. I know that he was in Kosovo.

2 Q. Are you aware that Rafiz was a member of the 114th NLA Brigade?

3 A. No. I don't know. I knew that he was in Italy.

4 Q. Do you know that in the beginning of August a -- Commander Teli's

5 group was discovered in Skopje and that in the clashes Commander Teli died

6 because of what commander Arusha decided to retaliate to the army and the

7 police. Are you familiar with that?

8 A. I don't know. I wasn't a member of that group as you are saying.

9 I was a farmer. I minded my own business. I worked all day, and I

10 explained to you what happened to us when the police came. I was taking

11 care of my sheep and cattle and I didn't care about Commander Teli or

12 anything like that. I had nothing to do with such people as you are

13 saying.

14 Q. Do you know that your brother Shefajet, called Shef, participated

15 in the planting of the mine in Ljubotenski Bacila after which he entered

16 the village?

17 A. This is not true.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask to move to a private

19 session now, please.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1846

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You know Kenan Salievski, don't you?

24 A. Yes. As one of our villagers.

25 Q. In 2001, he was the crisis committee president in the village. Is

Page 1847

1 it true?

2 A. I don't know. I can't be precise. I heard something about that.

3 It may be true, as you say.

4 Q. Mr. Kenan Salievski was the person who later informed you about

5 the arrival of the ICTY investigators and used to call you to go and talk

6 with them; is that correct?

7 A. I don't understand. What investigators are you talking about?

8 Q. When the Prosecutors of this Tribunal used to come to Skopje or to

9 Ljuboten, Mr. Salievski was the one who was informing you when you were

10 supposed to go and give a statement; is that correct?

11 A. I don't know. I may have been forgotten after what I went

12 through. We were greatly maltreated, as I said. I still feel pains to

13 this day. I don't remember that. Maybe it's true.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be now shown 65

16 ter 1D85, page 1D1193.40, 4-0.

17 Q. In the statement that he gave to the ICTY investigators on the 6th

18 of November, 2004 and 7th of November, 2004, Mr. Salievski said, being

19 asked:

20 "[In English] ... they are members of NLA. I say that Suad Saliu,

21 Riza Januzi, Besim Murtezani, Rafiz Bajrami, Shefajet Bajrami, Fikret

22 Aliu, Nimet Aliu, Ruhan Jashari or Bajrami, Ramadan Alimi, killed in

23 Matejce mountains; Musa Selimi, Refedin Selimi, Faik Murati, Shefket

24 Murati, Zekir Murati, and Rasim Murati. I think they were about 18

25 people, but I don't remember all names."

Page 1848

1 [Interpretation] Mr. Bajrami, the statement of Mr. Kenan Salievski

2 is different than yours in respect to your brother's participation in the

3 NLA; is that correct?

4 A. They are different, but it is not true.

5 Q. Thank you. In your statement and also today, answering the

6 questions of my learned colleague the Prosecutor, you have said that you

7 were brought in the court in Skopje whereby you gave a statement to the

8 investigating judge; is that correct?

9 A. What are you saying? What are you -- I don't understand. Can you

10 explicitly state from the court where it took me?

11 Q. My learned colleague showed you some documents and you confirm --

12 you confirm that from the Mirkovci police station you were taken to the

13 Basic Court II in Skopje; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. You were also shown your statement that you gave before the

16 investigating judge in Skopje; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, but they put the words differently. They added more words

18 compared to what I said, and they didn't tell the truth.

19 Q. Before that, I'll ask you to look into Prosecutor's Exhibit P248.

20 My learned colleague showed you this Official Note of the Mirkovci police

21 station; is that correct?

22 A. [No audible response]

23 Q. You do not know Angel Petkovski who signed this Official Note, do

24 you?

25 A. No, I don't know.

Page 1849

1 Q. All you know in respect to this note is that the other four

2 persons together with you were brought to the court; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. Yes, all of us who were in Mirkovci were sent to the court,

4 with the exception of three others who went to Bulnic [phoen]. We went to

5 the court, we others.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask that you are shown

8 Prosecution Exhibit P46 --

9 JUDGE PARKER: We recognise that we need to interrupt you. We

10 must have the first break at this point, and we'll resume at five minutes

11 past --

12 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm very sorry.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

14 MR. SAXON: I have a rather urgent matter to convey to the Court.

15 Perhaps the witness can be excused. It will only take a moment.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

17 We're going to have the first morning break now, and the court

18 officer will take you outside now and we'll start again at five past

19 11.00. So if could you go with the court officer now, Mr. Bajrami. Thank

20 you.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the next two witnesses scheduled to

24 testify are Mr. Sulejman Zendeli and then a protected witness, M053. I

25 received notification about 40 minutes ago that Mr. Zendeli had to receive

Page 1850

1 treatment for an ear infection over the weekend and he is not fit enough

2 to testify today. Therefore, if we were to follow the schedule, after the

3 present witness finishes, the next witness would be Witness M053. And I

4 would like -- I wanted to notify the Chamber of this slight predicament.

5 And perhaps if the Prosecution and Defence counsel could speak about this

6 during the break, I just don't know if the Defence counsel are prepared

7 for the start of M53's evidence today or not.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will adjourn now and counsel might

9 confer about the situation.

10 Perhaps, Ms. Residovic, can you indicate how much longer you would

11 expect to be with this witness?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very short. Not

13 more than ten minutes.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

15 Mr. Apostolski -- Ms. Zivkovic.

16 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I

17 think I will have around 45 minutes to one hour for this witness.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That will give you and all counsel some

19 indication of the process. The Chamber can't imagine that this witness

20 will go beyond the next break, if I could indicate, Mr. Saxon, so there

21 will certainly be the last session. But if you could all discuss that

22 matter and we will learn the outcome when we resume. When we resume will

23 now be more 10 past than five past 11.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 1851

1 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Bajrami, before the break we spoke about the fact that you

5 were taken from the Mirkovci police station to the Basic Court in Skopje

6 and that there you were interviewed by the investigating judge; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Some of them are correct, some not.

9 Q. When you were brought before the investigating judge, you said

10 that you were indigent and then the Court appointed an ex officio defence

11 counsel for you; is that correct?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And as it says in this record, Ljubisa Dimitrov was appointed your

14 defence counsel. He was there when you were interviewed. Do you remember

15 that?

16 A. I don't know anything about this.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness again be shown

18 document P46, page 66 in English and page 65 in Macedonian.

19 I do apologise. I'm using the document shown to the witness by

20 the Prosecutor, and in English the number is ET-0463-8837-0463-8839. This

21 is then page 4 in this document in English.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

23 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honour. Just to assist my learned

24 colleague, we have the hard copy because it's quite illegible in

25 Macedonian.

Page 1852

1 JUDGE PARKER: I think that could help Ms. Residovic quite a bit.

2 A hard copy is available for the witness.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you very much.

4 I think that this page, which we have on e-court now, does not

5 show what we have in our hard copy. So I will ask for the pages I

6 mentioned previously in e-court.

7 It may be simplest to show the page just shown to the witness by

8 the Prosecutor.

9 Your Honours, I do apologise. As the Macedonian text is not very

10 legible, and this morning the Prosecutor supplied with us a hard copy to

11 make things easier, probably, but the hard copy does not totally

12 correspond to what is in e-court so it's the first page. Could we now see

13 the third page, please? Yes, page 3 in English. Yes, where it

14 says "Bajrami Nevaip is my brother." And in Macedonian it's probably

15 also -- or, rather, in Macedonian it's page 2, not page 3. It's the last

16 paragraph on page 2 of the text in Macedonian. Thank you. And I

17 apologise for this brief delay.

18 Q. Mr. Bajrami, first of all, is it correct that you know the members

19 of the Ramadani family?

20 A. Yes, I know them. They were together with me. We were together

21 in the court as well.

22 Q. Very well. Beqir Ramadani, Osman Ramadani and Ismail Ramadani are

23 brothers, and they are all the sons of Muharem Ramadani; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would now like to ask you to take a look at the text.

Page 1853

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the last

2 paragraph in Macedonian, please?

3 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, sorry to interrupt, but I would like to

4 clarify the documents were exactly the same. I simply, for the purpose of

5 speeding up, I put the paragraph number in both English and Macedonian.

6 But the documents are the same, the ones that are in e-court.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So please look at the last paragraph on the screen and would the

10 witness in his hard copy, look at the part marked 10.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: I fully agree with my learned friend that it's the

12 same text, but the text that the witness has is marked with these numbers,

13 which makes it easier for the witness to find his way around the document.

14 As the last paragraph in the Macedonian version is marked 10,

15 could it be zoomed in on a little bit?

16 Q. Mr. Bajrami, the Macedonian text is not very legible, but I will

17 try to read what I see in Macedonian. It reads here that, "Nevaip Bajrami

18 is my brother."

19 Is that correct? Is he your brother?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it goes on to say: "As far as I understood, he was

22 transferred to the hospital. I don't know which hospital."

23 Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Ismail Ramadani, who is my neighbour, was also in hospital.

Page 1854

1 "Beqir Ramadani," it says here, "is my brother." It's an obvious

2 mistake.

3 A. Beqir Ramadani is not my brother.

4 Q. It is his brother. But it says here --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. So Beqir Ramadani is

6 part -- is a brother of Ismail Ramadani.


8 Q. As is Osman Ramadani, is that correct, who are my neighbours?

9 A. They are brothers.

10 Q. And they are your neighbours. And you see here behind the name of

11 Beqir Ramadani there is the word "mi," instead of -- M-I instead of M-U,

12 which in Macedonian --

13 THE INTERPRETER: This is interpreter's comment -- would be -- is

14 "my brother" instead of is "his brother."

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So it is clearly seen here that there was a typo regarding one of

17 the letters. Do you see that?

18 So these three persons, Beqir Ramadani, Osman Ramadani, Ismail

19 Ramadani, are brothers and they are your neighbours. Is that what you

20 stated to the judge?

21 A. I haven't told the judge that they are my brothers. This is what

22 the Court wrote. I did not tell them that they are my brothers.

23 Q. So I'm not asking you whether you stated this because you couldn't

24 have stated that. But is it correct that it is written here that, Ismail

25 Ramadani, who is my neighbour, is also in the hospital; Beqir Ramadani,

Page 1855

1 and it is M-I, instead of M-U, "my" instead of "his" brother, as well as

2 Osman Ramadani; and that those persons, Ismail, Beqir and Osman are your

3 neighbours.

4 Is that what you stated to the judge, they are brothers and your

5 neighbours. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you. Would you be kind to turn to the following

8 page in the Macedonian text. The distinguished judge asked you whether

9 you also stated that the civilians beat you up. Do you remember that?

10 A. Can you specify where were we beaten up? Can you tell me exactly

11 what you're talking?

12 Q. When my learned colleague asked but this statement, the

13 distinguished president of the Trial Chamber also asked you whether you

14 were beaten by civilians and you stated that you were not. Was it so, as

15 far as I remember, I could not quote the words from the transcript because

16 I don't see them now. But is it correct that you responded that the

17 civilians did not beat you?

18 I apologise, I --

19 A. We were beaten up only by the police.

20 Q. That the judge did not ask the question but I thought that His

21 Honour asked the question. If it not the case, then the mistake mine.

22 But I will then ask you a direct question, considering that on the

23 page 3, line 6, there are the words: "We were all beaten by the local

24 population while we were walking down the road."

25 Did you state this before the judge and is this correct?

Page 1856

1 A. No, it is not true. I have said that we were beaten up only by

2 the police, not by the civilians. What you said is not correct.

3 Q. When you were released from detention after the president pardoned

4 you, is it correct that you did not go and report the persons who had

5 beaten you in Ljuboten, in the police station, in the court, and in the

6 prison?

7 A. You're asking me about the time when I was released from prison,

8 yes?

9 Q. Yes. Is it correct that you did not go and report any of the

10 persons who have beaten you?

11 A. I could not do that, because they would give me more beating.

12 They beat you without any reason. There was no reason for me to go there

13 to report it.

14 Q. So up until the present day, you did not want to talk things out

15 with the Macedonian police or any other Macedonian bodies at all,

16 regarding the events that took place?

17 A. These were exactly the people who beat me. How can you go to the

18 same people to talk to them about beating? There was no reason for me to

19 go there. They were the same people who beat us. They were the law

20 themselves.

21 Q. You never asked your attorney to go and file a report on your

22 behalf against those persons who have beaten you; is that correct?

23 A. What counsel, what attorney are you asking me?

24 Q. Any attorney. In Skopje, there are many attorneys. Isn't that

25 correct?

Page 1857

1 A. Yes, that's true.

2 Q. Yes. You never went to an attorney and asked him to file a report

3 on your behalf against the persons who have beaten you up; is that

4 correct?

5 A. I went to an Albanian attorney. I told him what had happened. He

6 was an Albanian attorney.

7 Q. Did an attorney ever file a report on your behalf? Did you ever

8 request an attorney to do that?

9 A. No. I talked to this attorney, but he has done nothing so far.

10 Q. And, finally, tell me, is it correct that you described the events

11 only to representatives of international organisations and to the

12 investigators of this Tribunal and that you felt this was sufficient and

13 for this reason you did not turn to anyone else?

14 A. This is correct. I could not tell anything to the Macedonian side

15 because they might have disappear me. We have talked only to The Hague

16 Tribunal. I could not talk to the Macedonian side because, probably, they

17 would simply make a disappear.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. Bajrami.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, have I completed my

20 examination.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.

22 Now, Ms. Zivkovic.

23 Cross-examination by Ms. Zivkovic:

24 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bajrami, good morning.

Page 1858

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. My name is Jasmina Zivkovic and together with my colleague

3 Mr. Antonio Apostolski, I appear for Mr. Johan Tarculovski.

4 Mr. Bajrami, my learned friends from the Prosecution and my

5 colleague from the Defence, Ms. Residovic, put questions to you and you

6 told them that you had made two statements up to now. Before you came to

7 testify before this Tribunal today, did you again read the statements you

8 made to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal, and does the content of

9 those statements represent, to the best of your recollection, the events

10 in Ljuboten as you experienced them on the 10th and 12th of August? Is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes. I know really what happened. I never forget them.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bajrami, you are a farmer by profession and that

14 has always been your occupation, as far as I understand?

15 A. Yes, farmer.

16 Q. You completed primary school in your mother tongue, and that is

17 the whole extent of your education?

18 I don't know whether you heard my question. Is that the whole

19 extent of your education?

20 A. Yes. I have finished the 8th grade school.

21 Q. Did you ever try to find any other job?

22 A. No. No, I could not. Nobody accept you. You may want, but they

23 do not accept you. Where can you go?

24 Q. Who did not accept you?

25 A. I have not made any attempt for a job, but it was clear that you

Page 1859

1 could not get a job.

2 Q. Can you clarify why it was clear?

3 A. It was clear because I had only 8th grade education. I had no

4 secondary education. I had no university education. I had only 8th grade

5 education, so that was clear, it was not easy for me to get a job.

6 Q. Thank you. Said you served in the army. Can you tell what branch

7 of the armed services you served in?

8 A. In Kumanovo.

9 Q. Yes, but what branch.

10 A. Pesadi [phoen].

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. Infantry.

13 Q. Mr. Bajrami, in your statement of the 8th of February, 2003,

14 2D00236 - now it's P247.1 - you said that during the events in Ljuboten

15 you were beaten by members of the security forces and that you suffered

16 numerous injuries. Is this correct?

17 A. That is correct. I have still pains. They came into the house.

18 It is correct what you said.

19 Q. You also stated that because of your injuries, you are still

20 experiencing health problems, especially with your memory; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes. I have still health problems. I have still pains.

23 Q. As you stated, from the 10th to the 12th of August, 2001, you were

24 in Adem Ametovski's house. You repeated that here today. Is that

25 correct?

Page 1860

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And your other brothers were in this house as well, right?

3 (redacted)

4 Q. Your parents were there, three of your brothers --

5 A. My parents were at the neighbours' house. They were there because

6 our room was not enough for them. They were there with my mother and with

7 the wives of my brothers. Here in this house it was me and my brothers

8 and my cousins and my friends.

9 Q. Three brothers from the Ramadani family; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And three brothers from the Ametovski family?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you all went to that cellar from your houses because that

14 cellar was safer, it was more secure. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Bajrami, on Friday, the 10th of August, 2001, the shooting in

17 the village began at around 8.00 a.m.; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct. The shooting came from Malisheva.

19 Q. From the direction of Malistena? Is that what you said?

20 A. Yes, Malisten. They came from there. Shooting came also from the

21 church of Ljuboten village.

22 Q. And that was shelling and firing from light infantry weapons, if I

23 understood your statement correctly?

24 A. That's normal there from the church. There was -- there was

25 shooting.

Page 1861

1 Q. And this went on until 2.00 p.m. on that day; is that correct?

2 A. I don't know exactly because we could not look at the clock. I'm

3 not convinced about the exact time, but shooting continued for a long

4 time. There was no interruption.

5 Q. Thank you. On Saturday, the 11th of August, shooting and shelling

6 was also heard; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. You were still in the Ademovski -- or, rather, Adem Ametovski

9 cellar; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. You remained there throughout this time until the members of the

12 security forces forced you outside on Sunday, the 12th of August?

13 A. Yes. Yes, the -- yes, the Macedonian forces took us, took us out

14 of the basement through the window.

15 Q. So to confirm again, you were in that cellar throughout these

16 three days and you did not leave the cellar nor did your brothers leave

17 it?

18 A. Yes. We only went to the lavatory.

19 Q. Very well.

20 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move briefly move into

21 private session, please.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1862

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

24 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Bajrami, today my learned friend from the Prosecution gave us

Page 1863

1 a folder containing some documents, including tab 3. That's P48, pages 64

2 to 68 -- to 66, excuse me.

3 In paragraph 10, or, rather, 11 in the English version, in your

4 statement --

5 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether we can see

6 this now. This is P46.

7 Q. This is your statement made to the investigating judge. It's

8 page -- page 3. Page 3. And paragraph 11 is marked here.

9 Do you see the Macedonian version before you now on the right-hand

10 side of the screen?

11 A. Yes. But I cannot see it well.

12 Q. Yes, it's a poor photocopy. I will read to you. You say: "It was

13 Sunday, the 12th of August, 2001, around noon. I was sitting together

14 with," and then there's a part that's illegible, "and wife. We were in

15 our two rooms and we could hear detonations, shots, but I didn't know who

16 was shooting. Suddenly, the police entered our house. At that time, we

17 were still in the our rooms. They fired shots above our heads and several

18 policemen entered our yard. They started a search. They even searched

19 our old house, and because I was frightened, we went to our neighbour's

20 house, Medzit and Zija Ametovski's house."

21 Mr. Bajrami, it's clear from this statement of yours that you were

22 not in the Ametovski house, as you say, from Friday until Sunday. It's

23 clear from this statement that on Sunday, you were still in your house.

24 Is that correct?

25 A. That is not true. On Sunday, I was in the house of Ametovski. I

Page 1864

1 was in the basement. It is not correct to say that I was in my house.

2 Q. This means that what I have just read out, that you didn't state

3 that in fact?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Mr. Bajrami, is it true and correct that Rafiz and Shefajet are

6 your brothers and at the time of these events they were in Ljuboten?

7 A. No, they were not in Ljuboten. As I told you three or four times,

8 Rafiz was in Italy; Shefajet was in Kosovo.

9 Q. And let's clarify once more. My learned colleague asked you with

10 regards to the land-mine laying at Ljubotenski Bacila, you stated that you

11 did not know about it. Does it mean that you never heard about that event

12 or that you did not who placed the mine there?

13 A. I do not know anything about that event. Only afterwards I saw it

14 on television about it. But before that I do not know anything about it,

15 who put it. But then I was at the prison, and afterward I saw on

16 television and learned about it.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bajrami, do you know who is Commander Miskoja?

18 A. No, I do not know.

19 Q. It means that you don't know that he and his troops tried to enter

20 the village of Ljuboten on Sunday afternoon.

21 A. There has been no commander in Ljuboten, no commander at all.

22 There has been no commander in the village of Ljuboten. The Macedonian

23 forces were there. The village was encircled. Racak, they were all --

24 Radishan they were all police points. The whole village of Ljuboten was

25 encircled by army and the police. How can a commander get into the

Page 1865

1 village?

2 Q. Very well. But is then correct that NLA shelled the members of

3 the security forces with mortars from the Pop Cesme locality?

4 A. I don't know about Pop Cesme. We are talking about Ljuboten. I

5 was not there. I'm only talking about Ljuboten. In Ljuboten there was no

6 UCK -- there was no person of UCK in Ljuboten. There were only civilians

7 in Ljuboten.

8 Q. Right. But as you stated before, there were check-points

9 everywhere of the police and of the army and I assume that you know that

10 those positions of the army was stationed there because of the frequent

11 attacks of NLA against the neighbouring villages, precisely because of

12 that, because of those terrorists attacks?

13 A. No. The army and the police of Macedonia came to the village one

14 month before. They set up an encirclement one month before the village

15 was placed under siege by the army and the police. We were farmers. We

16 were working in the fields. We had livestock. They did not allow us to

17 take livestock to pastures. So we could see them. We saw how the whole

18 village was encircled by the police and the army.

19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bajrami, so you have stated definitely today that

20 you were in the Ametovski's basement and that you hid there because of the

21 shots taking place on the 10th and the 11th of August, but as you are

22 saying, you still remained in that basement on the 12th of August, the

23 Sunday, although there was no shooting then on that day. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, I was in the basement.

25 Q. And why were you in the basement if there was no shooting on the

Page 1866

1 12th of August, on Sunday?

2 A. Where could I go? The police -- the army was there. Where could

3 I go? I had nowhere to go. They beat up people. They killed people. So

4 I went to the basement. There was nowhere I could go. This is what I

5 could do.

6 Q. Right. But my question is the following: You now confirm before

7 his -- Their Honours that on the Sunday, the 12th, there was no shooting,

8 there was no shelling in the village of Ljuboten. Is that correct?

9 A. I don't know very well, but there was no reason for the infantry

10 to enter Ljuboten. They entered the village, they went into the houses,

11 they beat up as they wished. They took us in the streets --

12 Q. I apologise. Mr. Bajrami, could you just answer my question? Was

13 there shooting and shelling or not on the 12th of August, Sunday?

14 A. Before they came, there was shelling. But after they came in,

15 there was no shelling.

16 Q. In your statement of the 8th of February, 2003, P247.1, page 2,

17 paragraph 5, you stated that on the 12th of August there was no shelling

18 and shooting in the village. This means that as far as you knew, and if

19 you had really been in the village and in the house of Ametovski, you

20 didn't hear any shelling nor shooting on the Sunday, the 12th of August.

21 Mr. Bajrami, I'm asking you this, considering that it differs from

22 the statements of all the other witnesses who testified before this

23 Court.

24 A. That is not true. Then why did I go into the basement? I was

25 forced to go into the basement I went there because of the bullets,

Page 1867

1 because of the shells. It was not out of pleasure for me to go into the

2 basement.

3 Q. Mr. Bajrami, we are talking about 12th only.

4 A. [No audible response]

5 Q. I apologise, Mr. Bajrami. It is out of dispute that there were

6 shooting and shelling on the 10th and 11th and that you stated this. I'm

7 only asking you about Sunday, the 12th. Is it correct that you stated

8 this? Do you remember -- do you see your statement now?

9 A. I cannot read it well, because the letters are very small. The

10 letters are small.

11 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in the paragraph 5 on

12 page 2 of the Albanian version.

13 Q. Do you see it now?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It reads here that on the 12th of August there was no shelling and

16 shooting in the village.

17 A. I told you earlier that I could not tell you the time. However,

18 there was shelling before they came in. Then after they came in, after

19 the infantry came in, there was no shooting. I don't know exactly when

20 that happened. It was -- there was a lot of confusion. We were very

21 upset.

22 Q. You're now talking about Sunday, the 12th of August?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bajrami, from your statement and from the

25 statements of the other persons who were with you in that same basement,

Page 1868

1 it is clear that there were men only in that basement together with you.

2 Is that correct?

3 A. In the basement of the brother of Ametovski. In the other

4 brother's house, there were other men and women, because the place where

5 we were was very small. It could not contain all the people.

6 Q. Right. In the basement where you were were men only, and

7 considering this, I assume that you discussed the possibility of defending

8 yourself; is that correct?

9 A. We could not do anything. We kept our hands in the pockets. We

10 had nothing. The police, when they checked us, when they inspected us,

11 they could not find anything. They could not find even a knife.

12 Q. You stated that you saw some 200 police officers in the yard of

13 Ametovski; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. Probably 200, probably 300. We could not count all the

15 policemen. But approximately we could say 200.

16 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness now the

17 statement of Ismail Ramadani made on the 24th and 25th of October, 2003,

18 2D00264, page 3, paragraph 8.

19 Q. You see in the first line -- do you see now before you?

20 It says: "I noticed some 50 Macedonian police officers in the

21 yard of the house of Ahmeti."

22 Does it mean, Mr. Bajrami, that he did not speak the truth?

23 A. I already told you before, every person can say what he saw.

24 Everybody can say what he heard. I have come here to tell the truth as I

25 know it. I have not come here to lie to you. I have come here to tell

Page 1869

1 you what I saw. Then you're talking about other persons. Any person can

2 say what he wants. I'm not responsible for them.

3 Q. Mr. Bajrami, I apologise for interrupting you. If you know the

4 answers, you could of course answer my questions or not answer them. But

5 the questions I'm asking you are a proper way to cross-examine witnesses.

6 You will agree with me, Mr. Bajrami, that these persons whose

7 statements I'm reading now are better able to remember details related to

8 these events, the events that are the topic of our discussion today,

9 considering your problem with the memory that you testified about today at

10 the beginning of my cross-examination. Is that so?

11 A. I'm telling you again, I saw about 200. Maybe Ismail Ramadani saw

12 50, but what I saw and what I heard, I'm telling about what I saw and what

13 I heard. I'm not telling you about what Ismail heard and what he said. I

14 only want to talk about myself. If Ismail said that he saw 50, then

15 that's his business. I will he tell you what I saw.

16 Q. And then you saw two Hermelins, green Hermelins; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's true. Although --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. And if anyone stated

19 before this Court that there was only one Hermelin there, I assume this

20 would be incorrect again. Is that so?

21 A. It is not incorrect. If somebody saw one, he could say one. He

22 saw one, he said one. I saw two, I tell you two. I'll tell you what I

23 say.

24 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. All right. So when you went out of the basement you were ordered

Page 1870

1 to lie down on the ground; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And after that, when you were before the gate of the house you

4 were again forced to lie on the ground. Is that correct, that you were

5 lying down in a single file, and as you testified before, you were ordered

6 to cover your heads with your shirts. You stated --

7 A. [No interpretation]

8 Q. -- that you were also beaten there and insulted and you were not

9 allowed to look around you. Is that correct?

10 A. Some of it is correct; some of it is not correct. Can I describe

11 you what happened? Can I tell you how they took us through the window --

12 Q. Could you just -- you have already stated this. So I'm asking you

13 to please answer my questions.

14 So my question is while you were lying there in a single file in

15 front of the gate to the house, is it true that your heads were covered

16 with your shirts?

17 A. Yes, that is true.

18 Q. Is it also true that you were then beaten there and that you were

19 not allowed to look around you; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. While we were lying down, they beat up -- beat us up with

21 everything. They kicked us in the belly, in the head, with everything.

22 Q. Mr. Bajrami, I will now ask something that is not very pleasant,

23 but let's clarify once again. So you did not see when and how your

24 brother Sulejman Bajrami was shot to death. Is that correct?

25 A. I didn't see. But I heard him, what he talked to the police. He

Page 1871

1 told them, "Don't kill me because I was injured in the army, I was

2 injured. For you I have a pension from the army."

3 Then I heard the shots. When we stood up and go to the village

4 Ljubance, we saw our brother lying down dead on the ground.

5 Q. So you would agree with me that it is possible that he tried to

6 escape and that is what -- when he was killed, bearing in mind that you

7 haven't seen it, you've just heard it?

8 A. I heard my brother. I had something in my head, but I could

9 hear. We heard the shots. We did not know that he was dead. But then

10 when we got up and walked, then we saw him lying dead on the floor.

11 Q. So you did not see the moment when he was killed and you cannot

12 claim anything in that respect?

13 A. No. I said I heard what he told the policemen and when they asked

14 to us get up to go to the village of Ljubance we saw him dead lying on the

15 ground. It was possible - I don't know if it is grammatically correct,

16 but you could see the entry wound on his T-shirt. We saw him lying dead

17 on the ground.

18 Q. After that, you were ordered to walk and you left towards

19 Ljubanci?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. My question is whether while you were walking on that part, you

22 had your T-shirts over your heads?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you handcuffed?

25 A. No. I -- as far as I know, no. I'm speaking about myself. As

Page 1872

1 far as I'm concerned, no.

2 Q. You said you remember -- you only remember that you were walking

3 close to the Brace's house and that from there by a military truck you

4 were transferred to the Mirkovci police station; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. At Brace's house, when we went to a Macedonian's house in

6 the village of Ljuboten they said, "You haven't killed these people yet?"

7 And they started beating us. And from there onwards we were taken to

8 Brace's house. There was a voice there. I don't know who it was but we

9 heard the voice that said brava lavavi [phoen], and then we were put into

10 a truck and taken to Mirkovci and they beat us badly over there, so badly

11 they beat to us a pulp and we are able to tell you how badly we were

12 beaten. And that's that.

13 Q. All right. You have stated that you did not remember how long you

14 spent in the station, nor you also did not remember other things because

15 you were in the a very poor condition at that time. Is that correct?

16 A. I was in a very bad way. From time to time, I became aware, I was

17 able to notice things around me and I cannot tell exactly how long we

18 stayed there, but I think it was about two days. I just can't tell you

19 the exact time.

20 Q. I'm about to ask you about that. So before you were taken to the

21 court from the police station, you said the police gave you a blank sheet

22 of paper to write your name on it. Is that correct?

23 A. At Mirkovci, yes, they showed us the sheet. They hid that sheet

24 of paper and the Kalashnikov was around there and they forced us to sign

25 it. They put their hand on that piece of paper at Nikovc [as interpreted]

Page 1873

1 and they told us, "Sign it."

2 Q. So before that, you weren't interviewed in the station?

3 A. At Mirkovc or where? Which one do you mean?

4 Q. Well, in the Mirkovci police station.

5 A. No, no one did. They only gave me an injection because the pain

6 was not easing. Whether they were doctors or vets that injected me, I

7 don't know. But they did give me an injection because of the great pains

8 I was in.

9 Q. Listen to my questions and respond to them, please.

10 Is it correct that you were made a paraffin glove test in the

11 police station?

12 A. From what I remember, no. We didn't have a paraffin glove test.

13 As far as I was aware, if I was completely unaware, maybe it did happen.

14 But when I was completely aware and conscious, that did not.

15 Q. You know that that is a test to ascertain whether fire-arms were

16 used?

17 A. I do understand it, yes. I understand it. But during the time

18 that I was conscious, I was not made to undergo the paraffin glove test.

19 If that was while I was unconscious, that might have been the case.

20 Q. You told in the court that you signed a blank sheet of paper and

21 that nothing that is written on it is correct. Is it true?

22 A. I don't understand this question.

23 Q. When you were brought from the Mirkovci police station to the

24 Skopje Court, the judge showed you a document where, in addition to the

25 text, there was your signature. And then you told the judge that you

Page 1874

1 haven't signed anything but a blank sheet of paper about which we spoke a

2 while ago, and that everything that is written on the paper at that moment

3 is not true.

4 A. It is not true. I did say it earlier. They put their hand on the

5 piece of paper so I was unable to see and with a Kalashnikov at my head.

6 I was ordered to sign it. That's all I know.

7 Q. Very well. And during the interrogation you had a lawyer with

8 you?

9 A. There was someone who came in. Nobody told me that was my

10 lawyer. There was an additional number, as it were, that came in. But

11 nobody told me that was my lawyer.

12 Q. Mr. Bajrami, there was a procedure against you in the Skopje II

13 Basic Court in Skopje; is that correct?

14 A. I don't understand this question.

15 Q. Was there a procedure against you in the Skopje II Basic Court for

16 which you were in prison?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did the Basic Court Skopje II from Skopje acquitted you for that

19 act?

20 A. I don't know what to say. The indictment said we were the

21 accused, whilst when we were let free we were acquitted, which meant to

22 say that he were released from gaol. So why release me from gaol if you

23 have described me as a terrorist? Thank is the answer that I seek from

24 that lawyer: Why would they release me if I had been a terrorist?

25 Q. Is it correct that you were pardoned by the president Boris

Page 1875

1 Trajkovski as an NLA anybody in accordance to the Ohrid framework

2 agreement?

3 A. That's what I've heard. I don't know how much of it is true, but

4 that's all I have heard about it.

5 Q. Have you seen that document?

6 A. Which one?

7 Q. About your pardon, the document that -- that they acquitted you?

8 A. I have seen it, but I can't recall everything exactly. We had

9 been badly beaten up and I cannot remember everything. There are certain

10 things that one cannot remember.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bajrami.

12 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

13 questions. Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Zivkovic.

16 Ms. Regue.

17 Re-examination by Ms. Regue:

18 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honours, just a couple of questions.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean me? If you permit to say a

20 few words, I can say a few words, if possible.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please listen now to the questions put to

22 you by the Prosecutor. She has some more questions for you.


24 Q. Mr. Bajrami, you were asked by my learned colleague why you didn't

25 report about the beatings and about what happened in Ljuboten to the

Page 1876

1 authorities after you were released.

2 My question is: Were you ever approached by any police or any

3 member of the Ministry of Interior asking about what happened in Ljuboten

4 when you were in prison or afterwards?

5 A. No, not a single one. Never. No one has ever been to ask us how

6 we were, how things were and so on.

7 Q. Now, you were also asked -- you testified that the police and the

8 army encircled Ljuboten one month before the events. Did you -- during

9 that period of time, did you have to cross the check-points established?

10 A. No. We saw them from a distance.

11 Q. You never went to Skopje during that period of time?

12 A. During that month, no. Because I'm a simple farmer.

13 Q. Thanks. You were also asked about the paraffin test. My question

14 is: Did you ever hold any weapon during the weekend 10 to 12 August 2001?

15 A. Never. I'm 32 years of age, and I've never ever had a weapon in

16 my hands.

17 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I have no further questions.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE PARKER: Your last answer, Mr. Bajrami, may be confusing.

20 Did I correctly understand that you had performed military service with

21 the Macedonia army or with the Yugoslav army, I should say?

22 A. No, with the Macedonian army.

23 JUDGE PARKER: And you were in the infantry?

24 A. Yes, from all I know about the meaning of this word.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And you had weapon training in that time, I

Page 1877

1 take it?

2 A. Yes. In the army, yes. What I meant to say is in my household.

3 Yes, during the army, during the course of three and a half months or so,

4 that was the case, but what I meant to say is that in my household I never

5 had a weapon, I never held a weapon. But in an army, if you're in the

6 army then yes, of course, you have weapons.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That's clarified that point.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bajrami, you will be pleased to know that that

10 concludes the questions for you. The Chamber would like to thank you for

11 your coming to The Hague and for the assistance that you have been able to

12 give us. You will now of course be able to return to your home and your

13 normal activities.

14 So thank you very much, and the court officer will show you out of

15 the courtroom.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I also thank you for enabling me to

17 come here to The Hague tribunal. It was something that I had been looking

18 forward to. I wanted to be here, I wanted to be here to relate my rights

19 and what I went under. Even were I to die at this very moment, it

20 wouldn't be a big deal. All I wanted in my life was to be able to come

21 here and tell the rest of the world what we were put under in the village

22 of Ljuboten.

23 Thank you very much to everyone here at the Tribunal.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Saxon, have you been able to resolve the

Page 1878

1 issue you raised with the Chamber before the last break?

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, "resolve" may be too strong of a verb for

3 the Prosecution to use at this point, but the Prosecution can certainly

4 provide an update.

5 The Prosecution has spoken with the Defence about this matter and

6 the Prosecution has also checked with our colleague who began to speak

7 with Witness M-053 earlier this morning. It is the Prosecution's

8 understanding that the Defence does not feel prepared to begin the

9 examination of M-053 today, in part due to the fact that only yesterday

10 the Prosecution provided the Defence with information -- some additional

11 documents that the Prosecution wishes to use with Witness M-053.

12 But in addition do that, Your Honours, after some preliminary

13 discussions with Witness M-053 this morning, it is clear that the

14 Prosecution will need to produce a so-called proofing note, and to do that

15 carefully and comprehensively, the Prosecution would prefer to do that

16 later today so that it can be provided to the Defence sometime in the

17 afternoon. And certainly without providing that proofing note to the

18 Defence, the Prosecution would understand that the Defence would not feel

19 prepared to commence with this witness.

20 So the recommendation of the Prosecution is that the next witness,

21 whether it is Mr. Zendeli if he is ready to go tomorrow morning or M-053,

22 not commence until, I believe it is, tomorrow afternoon.

23 Having said that, it is our understanding that there are a few

24 procedural issues that need to be raised with the Chamber that may take 10

25 to 15 minutes, and perhaps we could use some of the remaining time today

Page 1879

1 for that purpose.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Given your indication after discussion with

3 counsel, it would appear we will not be able to hear a further witness

4 today, Mr. Saxon. We do continue tomorrow in the afternoon. We have been

5 moved to the afternoon because another Chamber is delivering final

6 judgement in a case in the morning and our courtroom has been made

7 available for that purpose.

8 Could I indicate there has been now a development affecting

9 tomorrow afternoon. We will be able to sit only until about 5.00 p.m.

10 tomorrow, that is, from 2.15 until 5.00, because it has been necessary for

11 the President to call a Plenary meeting of all Judges at 5.30 tomorrow and

12 we will simply be unable to sit through until 7.00. So it will be a

13 shorter afternoon, I regret to say, tomorrow.

14 Now, that having been said, there are procedural matters. Let us

15 try and deal with them before we break now.

16 MR. SAXON: If I may, then, Your Honour, the Prosecution has a

17 short matter to raise.

18 During the direct examination of Henry Bolton, which began last

19 Thursday, the first document shown to Mr. Bolton, which the Chamber

20 indicated it would admit pending resolution of an e-court issue, was Rule

21 65 ter number 691.1. It bears ERN number N001-5588 through N001-5601.

22 And it began with the OSCE special report concerning the president's plan

23 during the cease-fire. It is the Prosecution's understanding now that

24 this ERN range is now correctly uploaded onto e-court and can be properly

25 admitted.

Page 1880

1 JUDGE PARKER: That being the case, we will now receive that.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P249, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this moment, that is the only

5 procedural matter that the Prosecution wishes to raise, although I

6 understand that one or more of my colleagues on the other side of the room

7 may have something to raise with the Bench.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

9 Ms. Residovic.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to inform you

11 that together with my learned friends we have agreed that the Defence

12 documents tendered and put to witness Vilma Ruskovska, 1D177, 1D178 and

13 1D179, by your leave, are to be tendered into evidence as Defence

14 exhibits.

15 I also wish to say that we have been informed that the English

16 translation of the Law on Criminal Procedure of the Republic of Macedonia

17 has been put on e-court so that our previous tendering of parts of that

18 document as Defence exhibits is no longer necessary, and we agree that

19 this be a single Prosecution exhibit which now has translations both into

20 English and Macedonian in e-court.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

22 Now, firstly, the three Defence exhibits used in the

23 cross-examination of Ms. Ruskovska, they will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1D177 will become Exhibit 1D45, 65 ter

25 1D178 will become Exhibit 1D46, and 65 ter 1D179 will become Exhibit 1D47,

Page 1881

1 Your Honours.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that. And as I understand it,

3 Ms. Residovic, there is no need for any additional exhibit in respect to

4 that last matter you raised. We're merely having the Prosecution exhibit

5 number.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] With reference to the exhibits I

7 used with witness Vilma Ruskovska, there are no further issues to raise.

8 My learned friend has already explained to you that we have agreed

9 about other issues concerning the numbering of Prosecution exhibits which

10 contain large number of documents, and Your Honours will be advised of

11 this in writing.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 Do you have any issues, Mr. Apostolski?

15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I see I may have left Mr. Mettraux.

17 MR. METTRAUX: You have, Your Honour.

18 It is a very short application, Your Honour. We wished today to

19 respond to a Prosecution confidential application, so perhaps we should

20 move into private session for a minute. It will be short.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1882











11 Pages 1882-1883 redacted. Private session.















Page 1884

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 The Chamber has just indicated that the motion of the Prosecution

10 dated the 9th of May, with a view to the removal of four witnesses from

11 its list, not being opposed by either Defence has been granted now by the

12 Chamber, and the Prosecution will make available to both Defence teams the

13 confidential annex to its motion filed on the 30th of May. And that

14 having been done, the Defence of both accused will be in a position, we

15 anticipate tomorrow, to indicate their representative positions.

16 Now, Mr. Saxon, you had another matter.

17 MR. SAXON: I do, Your Honour, and regretfully I must ask that we

18 go back into private session.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1885

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We're now back in open session.

24 Is there any further matter, Mr. Saxon?

25 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.

Page 1886

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

2 Ms. Residovic? Mr. Apostolski?

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Well, that being so, in view of the illness of the

5 next witness, we must now adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow at

6 2.15 to continue either with that witness, if recovered; and if that

7 witness has not recovered, with the one to follow.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.45 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of June,

10 2007, at 2.15 p.m.