Page 1887
1 Tuesday, 12 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read aloud the card that --
8 the affirmation on the card that is now given to you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: WITNESS M-053
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
14 Examination by Ms. Motoike:
15 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to hear a translation in a language
16 you readily understand?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And even though you have a microphone
19 in front of you, will you please try to speak up with your voice a little
20 louder, because we would like to be able to hear you in court and it's
21 important that what you say reaches the interpreters so that they can
22 translate whatever it is that you are saying. Thank you.
23 Now, I think Ms. Motoike has some questions for you.
24 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.
25 Could I please have the usher's assistance in providing the
Page 1888
1 witness with a document that bears ERN 0609720806097208.
2 Q. Witness, could you please take a look at this piece of paper and
3 without saying the name out loud, can you tell us please whether the
4 information contained on this particular piece of paper is correct?
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters were not able to hear the
6 witness.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. As you can see, it will be important
9 for you to speak as though you're speaking to me, or to Ms. Motoike,
10 project your voice. Thank you.
11 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. And perhaps after my
12 learned colleagues have had a opportunity to review the document, if there
13 is no objection, I would like to tender it under seal.
14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P250, Your Honours.
16 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
17 Q. Witness, you have been granted protective measures which are the
18 use of a pseudonym and face distortion. Therefore, your face cannot be
19 seen outside this courtroom. And we will be referring to you as witness
20 or witness M-053. Do you understand this?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Witness, are you an ethnic Macedonian?
23 A. Yes, I am.
24 Q. And in 2001, were you an active police officer in Macedonia?
25 A. Yes, I was.
Page 1889
1 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we go into private session,
2 please.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
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24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
Page 1906
1 MS. MOTOIKE:
2 Q. Witness, you've mentioned a group of persons that were at the
3 police department where you worked. Did you recognise -- well, actually,
4 you've testified about a person or you've indicated that there was a
5 person named Bucuk present at the Cair police station. Do you know the
6 true name of this person?
7 A. I think that I only know him by the nickname of Bucuk. Only under
8 that name, Bucuk.
9 Q. And at that time was there anyone else, if you can recall, at the
10 police station with this group of people who arrived late in the evening?
11 A. What do you mean about these other persons? What do you mean?
12 Q. Let me ask you this: Do you know who Johan Tarculovski is?
13 A. I know him.
14 Q. And at the time did you know who Johan Tarculovski was, in August
15 2001?
16 A. That he was working in security.
17 Q. In what specific security unit was he working?
18 A. I don't know what is the name of the unit in the Ministry of
19 Interior. For security of persons or something.
20 Q. The unit fell within the purview of the Ministry of Interior?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you see Johan Tarculovski in this -- at any time at Cair
23 police station on the 11th of August, 2001?
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to this
Page 1907
1 question. I believe that these are leading questions, so I object to this
2 question being asked. If my learned colleague could reframe the question.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Are you referring to the question that names your
4 client?
5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Page 21, line
6 6.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
8 Ms. Motoike, it appears you're onto a sensitive area, and perhaps
9 not unnaturally, it was a very direct and leading question. See if you
10 can repair the damage.
11 MS. MOTOIKE:
12 Q. Witness, I'm wondering, in addition to the persons who came,
13 persons from Ljubanci, which were one of the groups on the 11th, and a
14 second group of persons who came to Cair police station on the 11th and
15 the third group of persons that you described as being from Kometa on the
16 11th, I'm wondering if you saw anyone else at the Cair police station at
17 that time?
18 A. No other people.
19 Q. Is there any other persons that you knew who were at the police
20 station that day?
21 A. These people from Kometa were at the station (redacted)
22 (redacted). No other people.
23 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we move into private session,
24 please.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
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4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
7 Q. And going forward to the 12th of August, Witness, were you also on
8 duty?
9 A. I was.
10 Q. On that day did you have an occasion to go to the police
11 check-point known as the Chinese wall?
12 A. I was there with Krstevski.
13 Q. And what time did you arrive there, if you can recall?
14 A. I think sometime around -- after 10.00.
15 Q. And when you arrived there, what did you see?
16 A. We were there. We later went to the check-points and there was
17 shootings in Ljuboten.
18 Q. And did you see any other persons at the check-point -- I'm just
19 focussing on the check-point known as Chinese wall. Did you see any
20 persons there?
21 A. There at the check-point were the reservists from Ljubanci, that
22 second group. And police officers. Actually, there were no active police
23 officers there. It was only the reservists.
24 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could go into private session, please, Your
25 Honours.
Page 1912
1 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
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19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
21 MS. MOTOIKE:
22 Q. Witness, did you also, on the 12th of August, have an occasion to
23 go to a football stadium or field that is located between Ljuboten and
24 Ljubanci?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1913
1 Q. Did someone arrive while you were there at that football field or
2 stadium?
3 A. The minister came, the driver, there were journalists.
4 Q. And by minister, can you tell who that person was, at that time?
5 A. The Minister Boskoski.
6 Q. And at some point did you then go back to the Chinese wall
7 check-point?
8 A. We welcomed him, we welcomed him there at the check-point and near
9 the football field, and we took him to the check-point where our
10 check-point was located.
11 Q. And is that check-point you're referring to the Chinese wall
12 check-point?
13 A. Chinese wall, yes. Chinese wall, the check-point.
14 Q. Is there also a house located at that check-point?
15 A. Yes. There is a house there, yes.
16 Q. And is that often referred to as Brace's house?
17 A. Brace's house.
18 Q. So at some point the minister and you and others go to Brace's
19 house or the Chinese wall check-point. Do you remember if the minister
20 was greeted by anyone at the Brace's house location?
21 A. I couldn't say, because I remained there at the entrance to the
22 house, at the road.
23 Q. Was this person that you know as Bucuk, was he there at Brace's
24 house?
25 A. I don't recall. I can't, because they were wearing masks, so I
Page 1914
1 couldn't know who they were.
2 Q. You indicated that there were reservist officers. Are these the
3 persons that you say were wearing masks?
4 A. Are you referring to those persons?
5 Q. No, I'm sorry. I'm referring to the reference with respect to
6 persons wearing masks. Who were the persons who were wearing masks?
7 A. The people who came back, because the actions already finished
8 there in Ljuboten so they returned. They were already deployed back to
9 the check-point.
10 Q. Were these people officers, police officers?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. And where were these people when you saw them, these people who
13 were wearing masks?
14 A. They were brought back to the Chinese wall, to the Brace's house.
15 Q. Were these persons dressed in any uniforms?
16 A. Camouflage uniform.
17 Q. And were these persons carrying any type of weapons?
18 A. Automatic weapons.
19 Q. If I could ask you, Witness, to look at tab 3 of the binder.
20 MS. MOTOIKE: It is 65 ter 202 at page 122 in e-court.
21 Q. Witness, do you see that bottom photograph on that page in the
22 binder and on the screen?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Does this masked person look like the people that you saw at the
25 house, Brace's house that day?
Page 1915
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, if we could tender this, please.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 Ms. Residovic.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to know
6 whether my learned colleague, and I assume that this is what she is
7 proposing, is to seek to tender these photographs and not the text or the
8 accuracy of the text in the aforementioned document.
9 JUDGE PARKER: The point you make, of course, is that there is
10 text as well as photographs.
11 Ms. Motoike.
12 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, is it was my intention only to tender
13 the photograph and not the text. The witness can only speak to the
14 photograph.
15 JUDGE PARKER: The document in e-court, as I would understand it,
16 is one document with two photographs and text.
17 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes. It was my intention, hopefully, to tender just
18 the photograph on the bottom which is the photograph the witness spoke
19 of. The best --
20 JUDGE PARKER: Put it this way: If it is technically possible to
21 separate out that one photograph, it will be received. Otherwise, not.
22 MS. MOTOIKE: Or, Your Honour, perhaps it is not technologically
23 possible to separate out the photograph, if perhaps the Court would allow
24 us to redact or black out the text and the top photograph and have it
25 rescanned or uploaded to e-court, that might -- I'm wondering if that
Page 1916
1 might also be an available option for the Prosecution.
2 JUDGE PARKER: That certainly would be an available option. I
3 think it is going to be the one you will have to follow.
4 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour. We will do that.
5 JUDGE PARKER: So, at the moment, nothing is received.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
7 Your Honour, can I make one more request, could I at least have
8 the exhibit marked for identification.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it might prevent any confusion. It will be
10 marked for identification.
11 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
12 THE REGISTRAR: It will be marked for identification under
13 reference P252, Your Honours.
14 MS. MOTOIKE:
15 Q. Witness, did you see any persons who were being detained at this
16 location, at Brace's house?
17 A. Could you please repeat the question?
18 Q. Did you see any civilian persons who were being detained at the
19 location known as Brace's house at the time you were there?
20 A. There were civilians.
21 Q. Were they being detained?
22 A. They were detained.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, yes.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 31, line 12,
25 the witness answered that these persons were brought in, while the
Page 1917
1 interpretation was "detained." They were deprived of -- they were held
2 and not arrested or detained.
3 JUDGE PARKER: I'm a little lost, Ms. Residovic. Are you saying
4 that what is recorded in the transcript was not the complete answer?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I just think
6 that the interpreting is imprecise of what the witness has stated. He did
7 not say that they were detained. He said that they were brought in, and
8 in my opinion, that could be interpreted as brought in and in no way it
9 could be interpreted as detained.
10 So the objection goes to the imprecise translation of what the
11 witness has stated.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike, do you want to follow that up?
13 Alternatively, we could ask in due course for a -- the translation to be
14 checked.
15 MS. MOTOIKE: No, Your Honours, I don't need to follow that up.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we'll have the translation checked,
18 Ms. Residovic.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MS. MOTOIKE:
21 Q. With respect to these persons that you saw, were -- did you see
22 these persons -- were these persons present at the time when you saw the
23 minister arrive at Brace's house?
24 A. There are interruptions.
25 No. Now I hear you.
Page 1918
1 Q. Okay. I'll ask my question again. With respect to the persons
2 that you just mentioned, were these persons present at the time when the
3 minister arrived at Brace's house?
4 A. The persons that were brought in, as to say, these persons were
5 not in the yard. These persons were just next to the wall of the
6 check-point, down the wall of the check-point.
7 Q. I guess my question was, though, were these persons present at the
8 time when the minister had arrived at Brace's house?
9 A. Yes, they were.
10 Q. And going back to a question I asked you earlier, which is for
11 reference on page 28 of today's transcript, I had asked you about whether
12 the minister had been greeted by anyone at Brace's house.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness already answered that
14 question.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please, Ms. Motoike.
16 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
17 Q. And you had indicated that you couldn't say. Could you tell us --
18 A. I can't say because I stayed at the very entrance of the house. I
19 didn't enter this yard, inside this yard.
20 Q. Were you ever contacted by the Ministry of Interior after the
21 events in Ljuboten?
22 A. No. Maybe -- I think in 2003.
23 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we move into private session,
24 please.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
Page 1919
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15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
16 MS. MOTOIKE:
17 Q. Witness, are you aware of any police officer from Cair police
18 department ever being disciplined for the events in Ljuboten?
19 A. No, I don't know.
20 Q. And now I have a general question just about uniforms, Witness.
21 Are you familiar with the uniforms worn by court police officers?
22 A. The court uniforms are blue, simple blue shirt, blue trousers or
23 grey colour, so it is blue/greyish shirt, trousers.
24 Q. Do court police officers have any insignia on their uniforms?
25 A. Yes, they have an insignia, writing, "court police."
Page 1920
1 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we move into private session,
2 please.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
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25 [Open session]
Page 1926
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
2 MS. MOTOIKE:
3 Q. Witness, going back to the 12th of August, 2001, can you tell me
4 whether or not you saw Johan Tarculovski at all that day?
5 A. I can't remember seeing him or someone else on the 12th of August
6 because, as I said, there were people wearing masks.
7 Q. And just so I can get some clarification, you can't remember then
8 whether or not you saw Johan Tarculovski that day?
9 A. No, I don't remember.
10 Q. Witness, do you recall --
11 MS. MOTOIKE: And, Your Honours, perhaps we should go into private
12 session.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
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16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
19 I'm sorry, Ms. Motoike, but the Chamber must now adjourn because
20 of the Plenary meeting which has been called. We will continue the
21 evidence tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.
22 We must adjourn now for the evening and the evidence will continue
23 tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. The court officer will give you further
24 information about your continued attendance tomorrow.
25 Thank you very much. We now adjourn.
Page 1951
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.08 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of
3 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.
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