1 Tuesday, 19 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 Good afternoon, doctor. Could I remind you that the affirmation

8 you made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

10 WITNESS: ZLATKO JAKOVSKI [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examination by Ms. Motoike: [Continued]

13 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you. Good afternoon. Could we please display

14 again 65 ter 993. This is also tab 3 of the binders. With the usher's

15 assistance, could we please give the doctor his binder from yesterday.

16 Thank you very much.

17 Q. This is at tab 3 of the binders.

18 Dr. Jakovski, yesterday we spoke briefly about this document

19 that's being displayed on the screen in front of you. You indicated that

20 the markings on this sketch were written by you and are -- refer to

21 basically injuries and their dimensions that were noted on Atulla Qaili's

22 body at the time of autopsy. Could I ask you whether all of these

23 injuries and their dimensions were also noted in your final autopsy

24 section protocol that you prepared for Mr. Qaili as well?

25 A. All the changes that are marked on this sketch are described in

1 detail in the section protocol in the sense of the colour, shape,

2 dimension, position.

3 Q. And could we turn, please, to page 2 of this document.

4 Doctor, the handwriting that is on this particular page, is this

5 also your handwriting?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And could you please, so that we can have a translation of this,

8 if you could read, please, what you have written on this particular page

9 in the Macedonian language. That way, we can get a translation of this

10 particular page.

11 A. You want me to read what is written here on that second page?

12 Q. Yes, please, so we can have a translation of this for the record.

13 A. Forehead bilateral haematoma, on the rear part of the head-- this

14 is a poor copy. I can't read it. It only says on the -- in the face that

15 there is a haematoma. Subdural on the forehead basal, on the back of the

16 head, three centimetres, ribs a left side from the 2nd to the 9th from the

17 parasternal to the median line. From the second, and I can't see then

18 what's written in the copy. From the middle collar-bone to the scapular

19 and 7th in the subscapular area. This is located on the ribs or in the

20 chest.

21 Then it is written the brain, left, from -- on the forehead and

22 the back of the head, on the exterior, subarachnoidal, in the cerebellum

23 subarachnoidal. The copy is poor, I can't read it here. Contusion, 0.5

24 times 0.5, around it, a small -- small dots of haemorrhage, 0.1.

25 Lungs, left basal, plurae is -- is pasted, the heart and the aorta

1 and the -- the heart, the aorta, and the pulmonal croagalins [as

2 interpreted] are mixed. Liver, right subcapsular, 1 times 1.

3 Gall-bladder, around -- there is around two cubic centimetres of gall.

4 Spleen, pancreas, white, which means without any changes, without any

5 distinguishing marks. Kidneys, left, indipalonic [as interpreted],

6 blood. Urine contains blood. Stomach, 200 cubic centimetres of liquid

7 contents.

8 Q. Thank you. And could you tell us please --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, liquid and mushy

10 contents.

11 MS. MOTOIKE:

12 Q. Were these notes also incorporated into your final section

13 protocol for Mr. Qaili?

14 A. Yes. All of them are incorporated in the internal findings of the

15 section protocol.

16 Q. And could we turn, please, to page 4 of this document.

17 And, Doctor, the document before you appears to have anatomical

18 diagrams of the human head, and I draw your attention to the upper right

19 corner of this diagram, has a face with some handwriting and markings on

20 it. Again are these your handwriting?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And is this with respect to again the autopsy of Atulla Qaili?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what do these markings on this particular diagram indicate?

25 A. These are the injuries found during the autopsy in the head area.

1 Q. And did you use the same methodology, meaning, did you describe

2 the dimensions and the type of injury on this diagram as notes taken

3 during the autopsy?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And were these also incorporated in your final written autopsy

6 protocol?

7 A. Yes. In the part that deals with the external description.

8 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, I would like to please tender this

9 entire document.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P279, Your Honours.

12 MS. MOTOIKE: Can we please show the witness the section protocol

13 for Atulla Qaili that we saw yesterday. It is again P00049, but could we

14 please, for purposes of e-court pull up 65 ter 13.9. Again, this is tab 1

15 of the binders.

16 If we could turn to page 2 of this document in both the English

17 and the Macedonian version, please.

18 Q. Dr. Jakovski, I'd like to take a look at some of the external

19 injuries that you have noted on these sketches and then that were

20 eventually incorporated into your section protocol with respect to Atulla

21 Qaili.

22 If we could go to the first full paragraph in the English and if I

23 could direct your attention to paragraph 6, I believe, of the Macedonian

24 version, which is paragraph 2 -- I mean, I'm sorry, page 2, paragraph 6 of

25 the Macedonian version. There is a sentence that begins with: "The

1 forehead is of medium height and slightly ridged." After that it

2 says, "In the area of the right forehead region, there is a contusion of

3 dark red violet colour. The epidermis is missing on its surface." And

4 then it goes on to describe some other indications, and in the paragraph

5 after that it begin with, "The eyes are with closed eyelids. The upper

6 and lower lid of the left eye are entirely with a dark violet colour

7 haematoma, while on the upper and lower lid of the right eye there is a

8 dark violet colour haematoma."

9 And then further down on this same page, and I believe it's

10 actually on page 3, first full paragraph in the Macedonian version but

11 further down on page 2 of the English version, it indicates that, the

12 paragraph beginning with, "the nose has a regular configuration," it

13 indicates that in the area of the upper third part of the ridge of the

14 nose there is a contusion of dark red violet colour with the epidermis

15 missing on its surface, oval-shaped," and gives dimensions.

16 Then later on after that in the subsequent paragraph it goes on to

17 say in the second sentence: "While dark red blood is flowing from the

18 left external ear canal, in the area of the right earlobe there is a dark

19 violet haematoma." Gives dimensions. And then following that it says,

20 "In the area of the right cheek region there is a contusion of dark red

21 violet colour with the epidermis missing from its surface."

22 Dr. Jakovski, are those some of the injuries that you have noted

23 in the diagrams that we have gone over already?

24 A. Yes, those are the injuries that are marked on the sketch.

25 Q. And if I could then draw your attention, could we please display,

1 tab 4 of the binders. It is already admitted as an Exhibit P00187.

2 Dr. Jakovski, do you recognise the person depicted in this

3 photograph that is displayed before you?

4 A. Yeah, that is the deceased Qaili Atulla.

5 Q. And this appears to be a close-up shot of his head, neck and upper

6 chest region? At the time that you received the body for autopsy, did it

7 look exactly like this?

8 A. No. The body was fresh. While in this photograph, one can see

9 that the decomposition processes have already started.

10 Q. So can you tell from this photograph that the photo was actually

11 taken after the autopsy of Atulla Qaili?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Does your institute normally take photographs of the bodies that

14 you perform autopsies on as normal protocol?

15 A. During any autopsy at our institute we take photographs and, if

16 needed, also videorecording is made with the audiorecording accompanying

17 it.

18 Q. And were photos actually taken as part of the protocol with

19 respect to Atulla Qaili?

20 A. Specifically, with regards to this case and the cases during the

21 period of around five to six months, until before the start of the

22 exhumation, we did not take photographs of the autopsies performed,

23 because the photo camera was stolen.

24 Q. Okay. And I can ask you, notwithstanding the decomposition

25 processes that you've noted in this particular photograph, in this

1 photograph are the -- basically the contusion that you spoke of to the

2 forehead area and the other injuries that we have just gone over with

3 respect to the face, are these visible in this particular photograph?

4 A. Yes, they are visible.

5 Q. If we could look at the second photograph under tab 4, and if we

6 could please display P00014.

7 Again, doctor, do you recognise what is depicted in this

8 photograph?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And this appears to be a shot of the entire face of Atulla Qaili.

11 Again, I'll ask you: At the time of autopsy, did his face look exactly

12 like the photo here?

13 A. It did not look the same, because now there are changes to the

14 colour of the skin, because of the initial decomposition, putrefaction

15 processes, but the injuries are visible although they are disguised a bit

16 during the -- partially disguised because of the decomposition processes.

17 Q. And if question could take a look at this particular photograph,

18 by the injuries being visible, do you mean this dark area that's right

19 above what would be Atulla Qaili's left eye as well as on the left cheek?

20 A. You can see that the skin in the area around the injuries is red

21 already in the area of the chin --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Or the beard, interpreter's correction.

23 A. -- beard, moustache, as well as in the area of eyelids. It is

24 already olive-green, which is a proof that the decomposition process has

25 started.

1 Q. And drawing your attention to the injuries right around the left

2 eye area, specifically looking at these injuries, could you tell us, in

3 your opinion what could have caused this type of injury?

4 A. The injuries in the head area have occurred as a result of use of

5 dynamic blunt force.

6 Q. If we could please go back to the protocol which is at tab 1.

7 Again, it's 65 ter 13.9. I'd like to draw your attention to page 3 of

8 that document in the English version. And it is page 4, I believe, of the

9 Macedonian version. And on this particular page, it's the third full

10 paragraph of the Macedonian version and it is the third full paragraph of

11 the English version. I'll draw your attention to the second sentence in

12 that paragraph. It says: "In the area of the anterior lateral side of

13 the right upper arm region there are four dark violet coloured haematomas

14 that are strip-shaped and diagonally, longitudinally positioned with a

15 direction from up and left towards down and right, they are parallel and

16 from 13 to 6 centimetres in length and 1.5 centimetres in width." And

17 later on in this same paragraph, there's a sentence that begins with, "In

18 the area of the lateral side of the right shoulder, there is a dark violet

19 coloured haematoma strip-shaped with dimensions 4.3 by 1.5 centimetres."

20 Do you see that, Dr. Jakovski?

21 A. Yes, I see 0.5 times 0.5.

22 Q. Do you recall these injuries that I just read out to you? Do you

23 recall also noting those in the diagram and in the final section protocol?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If I could then, please, if we could show the witness 65 ter 205.

1 It's page 13 in e-court.

2 Dr. Jakovski, I'll ask you again if you recognise what is depicted

3 in this photo. It's actually photograph within tab 4 of the binder.

4 A. Yes, I recognise this.

5 Q. And this again appears to be the right arm and part of the chest

6 area of Atulla Qaili; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And again, except for the changing in colour and some

9 decomposition that you have already testified to as having occurred in

10 prior photographs, is this a representation of what some of the injuries

11 to the right arm were to the body at the time you saw it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And if I could draw your attention to the upper right arm area

14 that is depicted in the photograph. There seem to be some lines or

15 markings on the arm that are in a line formation or as, I think you termed

16 it, strip-shaped. Do you see those?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are those the particular injuries that we've just described in

19 your protocol?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If you could, please, could you just circle with the - maybe the

22 assistance of the usher - the particular injuries that you described as

23 strip-shaped in your protocol.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. And could you please tell us, in your opinion, what could have

1 caused this type of injury?

2 A. These type of injuries occur as a result of an instrument that was

3 long, hard and blunt.

4 MS. MOTOIKE: Could we tender this, please.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P280, Your Honours.

7 MS. MOTOIKE: And if we could stay in this tab of the binder, and

8 if we could display 65 ter 205, page 5, it is another photograph within

9 that tab 4. It bears ERN number N001-8133.

10 Q. And, again, Doctor, do you recognise the body of Atulla Qaili in

11 this photograph as well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And this photograph appears to be a photo of the upper half of his

14 body which includes his head. Again, notwithstanding the discolouration

15 and decomposition changes that you have noted already with respect to the

16 other photographs, are the injuries to the right arm and face visible in

17 this photograph, that is, the injuries that you noted at the time of the

18 autopsy?

19 A. They are visible, but they're not as clear as they were during the

20 autopsy.

21 Q. If I could draw your attention to the right -- what would the

22 right arm of Atulla Qaili, and there seems to be again the strip-shaped

23 marks and there seems to be one that is going -- actually follows from the

24 right arm upwards to the chest area. Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Was that an injury that you also noted in your autopsy protocol?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And the dark markings that are on the right hand and

4 forearm of Atulla Qaili, were those also noted in your protocol and

5 observed by you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If I could, with the usher's assistance, Dr. Jakovski, so we have

8 a clear reception, could you please circle for us the injuries that you

9 noted in your protocol and that are observable in this particular

10 photograph.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. And could you also mark the ones that are still visible on the

13 face.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. And with respect to the left arm of Atulla Qaili are there any

16 visible injuries that you noted in your protocol that are visible on this

17 photograph as well?

18 A. I should look at the sketch first. Could you help me and tell me

19 in which tab are the sketches? I found them.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you. Again, Doctor, I would like to ask you: Could you

23 tell us in your opinion what could have caused these particular injuries?

24 A. These injuries have occurred as a result of a use of a dynamic,

25 blunt, hard force.

1 Q. And if we could, please, stay in tab 4 of the binder and then we

2 could display -- I'm sorry.

3 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we please tender this particular

4 photograph.

5 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P281, Your Honours.

7 MS. MOTOIKE: Staying in tab 4 of the binders, could we please

8 display 65 ter 205? It's at page 7. It bears ERN N001-8135.

9 Q. Doctor, do you recognise what is depicted in this particular

10 photograph?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And there appears to be a photograph of the legs of Atulla Qaili.

13 And again, except for the discolouration and changes you have noted with

14 respect to decomposition, are injuries still visible that were visible to

15 you at the time of autopsy in this particular photograph?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. With the assistance of the usher, please, Dr. Jakovski, could you

18 please mark on this particular photograph the injuries that you noted at

19 the time of autopsy?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. And these particular injuries that have you noted on the legs, in

22 your opinion, what could have caused these injuries?

23 A. These injuries have also occurred as a result of the activity of a

24 dynamic --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, application of a

1 dynamic hard blunt force.

2 MS. MOTOIKE:

3 Q. And were these particular injuries also set forth in your autopsy

4 protocol in the section regarding external findings?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we tender this, please.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P282, Your Honours.

9 MS. MOTOIKE: And could we please go back to the section

10 protocol. Again, it's tab 1 of the binders. It's 65 ter 13.9 for

11 purposes of e-court. If we could please pull up page 5 of the English

12 version of that particular document. I believe it is page 7 of the

13 Macedonian version.

14 Q. Doctor, I would like to now discuss a little bit of the internal

15 findings with respect this particular autopsy protocol. So I direct your

16 attention to, I believe it is paragraph 6 of the English version and

17 paragraph 6 on page 7 of the Macedonian version. There's a paragraph that

18 starts: "The brain is slightly enlarged and of softer consistency. The

19 lepto-meninges are smooth, glossy and under then in the area of the

20 external side of the left front and top lobe there is a dark red bleeding

21 distributed as a thin film."

22 And then later on in the same paragraph it says: "In the area of

23 the right frontal lobe in the basal part there a bleeding in the grey

24 matter in the area of 0.5 by 0.5 centimetres." And then later on, second

25 to last sentence of that paragraph it says: "Under the lepto-meninges" -

1 I'll spell it for the record, l-e-p-t-o-m-e-n-i-n-g-e-s - "of the left

2 hemisphere of the cerebellum there is a dark red bleeding distributed in

3 the form of a film."

4 And in the next paragraph, first sentence in the middle it

5 starts: "Whereby in the area of the front left fosa cerebrea" - and this

6 is page 8, first full paragraph of the Macedonian - "there is a linear

7 crack that passes through the rear third of the fossa and then it

8 continues up front," and it continues to describe that particular injury.

9 Again, Doctor, are these particular areas some of the -- those

10 that you noted with respect to the brain?

11 A. These are the injuries that have been written on the back side of

12 the sketches which I read previously.

13 Q. And did you also observe any external injuries to the head area

14 besides the ones to the face and forehead that we have already discussed

15 this afternoon?

16 A. All the injuries that have been described in the head area on the

17 sketches are also part of the section protocol.

18 Q. And in the -- in your opinion, what could have caused these

19 particular injuries, that is, the bleeding that's been noted and then this

20 particular linear crack that you have described in your section protocol?

21 A. These injuries have occurred as a result of an application of a

22 dynamic, blunt hard force in the area on the head.

23 Q. If we could please turn then to page 6 of the English, page 9 of

24 the Macedonian, drawing your attention on the English version to paragraph

25 6, the first full paragraph 6, and paragraph 9 of the Macedonian on page

1 9. It indicates in reference to the paragraph that begins with "the

2 kidneys have a normal size," the fourth or fifth sentence says: "The

3 cortex is clearly divided from the pulp, while the tissue is of

4 brownish-yellowish colour. In the calixes of the left kidney there is a

5 liquid dark red-coloured blood while the calixes of the right kidney are

6 empty.

7 Do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what is the significance of brownish-yellowish colour of the

10 kidney?

11 A. The normal colour of the kidneys is brownish violet. In cases

12 when there is some trauma or shock, the kidneys change their colour, and

13 they become brownish and yellowish in colour.

14 Q. And was there any external injury that you noted which might

15 indicate what caused this particular injury to the kidney?

16 A. In projection of the left kidney, on the external or posterior

17 side, at the level of the rib arch, there is a haematoma with a dimension

18 8 by 4 which is also described in the external description of the section

19 protocol.

20 Q. And in your opinion, could this type of injury to the kidney be

21 caused by a simple slap of the hand by somebody?

22 A. I can't be very specific, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility

23 with a very strong blow or hit by hand, by a box, by a fist that this type

24 of injury might occur.

25 Q. If I could draw your attention to the same page -- actually, I

1 think it -- yes, same page in the Macedonian version, page 9. It's

2 paragraph 10 of the Macedonian and it is the -- paragraph 11 or the second

3 from last paragraph on page 6 of the English. That paragraph starts

4 with: "After the removal of all internal organs," then it goes on in the

5 next sentence to say: "On the left side of the chest broken ribs are

6 noted in several lines, from the 2nd to the 9th ribs are broken from the

7 parasternal line to the medial clavicular line, from the 2nd to the 10th

8 rib are broken from medial clavicular line from to the medial axillary

9 line, while the 7th rib is broken also in the clavicular line."

10 In the last sentence it says, "Around the previously described

11 broken places there is a dark red haematoma of the intercostal muscles."

12 Do you see that, doctor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And am I reading this correctly to believe, then based on

15 this, that there at least eight broken ribs found on Mr. Qaili?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And based on your experience, can you tell us what could have

18 caused this particular type of injury?

19 A. Application or -- of a blunt force in the area of the chest.

20 Q. Could this type of injury have been caused by reanimation or what

21 I would call resuscitation efforts?

22 A. When doing reanimation, broken ribs can occur. However, these

23 where not located in the projections that have been concluded, found at

24 the deceased body of Atulla Qaili.

25 Q. If I could draw your attention next to page 7, the following page

1 of the section protocol. I believe it is page 10 of the Macedonian

2 version. There is a section in bold termed "Pathological Anatomical

3 Diagnosis." Do you see that, doctor?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what follows is a list or a list of -- sorry, bullet points

6 that go all the way to the following page. Can you tell us, please, what

7 does this particular section describe or set forth?

8 A. Regarding the pathological anatomical diagnosis, describes all the

9 injuries. In some other section protocols this part would include

10 illnesses that have been concluded or found during the autopsy in Latin.

11 Q. So this section, if you will, basically sets forth all of the

12 injuries that are described in the section protocol?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if we could turn the page, please, in the English version to

15 page 8. I believe it is page 12 -- 13 of the Macedonian version. There's

16 a section towards the bottom that in bold says "opinion," and if I could

17 read that, it says: "The death of the now deceased Atulla Qaili is

18 violent and it occurred as a result of a traumatic shock."

19 Next paragraph goes on to say: "The traumatic shock occurred as a

20 result of a repeated action of a dynamic blunt and hard force in the area

21 of the head, body, and limbs of the now deceased Atulla Qaili. And the

22 following injuries point to this: haematomas, excoriations and contusions

23 on the head, body and limbs, haematomas of the soft tissues of the head,

24 haematoma in the subdural region, subarachnoidal bleeding, bleeding in the

25 frontal parietal lobe of the brain, linear fraction in the area of the

1 right and left frontal cranial pit, rib fractures on left chest in several

2 lines, bleeding under the liver capsule and bleeding in the left kidney."

3 And then it goes on to say: "As a result of the traumatic shock,

4 a disturbance of the functioning and complete seizure of the functioning

5 of important vital organs occurred, whereby a lethal outcome has happened

6 to the now deceased Atulla Qaili."

7 Do you see that, doctor?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And bearing that in mind, if I could draw your attention and if we

10 could please display to the doctor a document that is at tab 5 of the

11 binder. It is 65 ter 220.1, bearing ERN N000-5180 - N000-5180 [sic].

12 Doctor, the document that is before you, if I could just draw your

13 attention to the top. It says "medical report." It goes on to say,

14 "Abdula Cajani, from the village of Ljuboten," and it says under that

15 "admitted 13 August 2001." And then it says "Exitus letl 13 August 2001"

16 and in that paragraph it says: "On 13 August 2001, Abdula Cajani was

17 admitted to the clinic with injuries to the head, neck and body,

18 heteroanamnestic - I apologise - data for an injury resulting from a

19 fall."

20 Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Have you seen this document before?

23 A. I believe that this document was shown to me in Skopje when we

24 have been -- I have been interviewed, but I don't recall precisely.

25 Q. At the time of performing the autopsy on Atulla Qaili, did you see

1 this document, had you seen this document?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Drawing your attention to the indication that it was an injury

4 resulting from a fall, is that consistent with your findings based on your

5 autopsy of Atulla Qaili?

6 A. No. These injuries are not consistent with falling down.

7 Q. And could you please tell us in your opinion what these injuries

8 were consistent with?

9 A. With direct application of a dynamic, blunt, hard force.

10 Q. And is it based on a combination of all of the injuries that

11 caused Atulla Qaili's death?

12 A. During the autopsy of the deceased, Atulla Qaili, we have

13 concluded injuries in the head area, such as bleeding under the --

14 aponeurose helmet and the brain membrane and broken bones in the base of

15 the skull which, on their own can be considered as a serious bodily

16 injury, injury that endangers the life of the patient. But also, other

17 broken ribs have been found on the left-hand side of the chest which have

18 made breathing rather difficult, and of course -- of course pain, and all

19 these injuries have caused a very difficult shock situation, which is also

20 corroborated by the change in the kidneys, which is the reason or the

21 cause of death.

22 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we tender this document that is

23 displayed before us, please.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P283, Your Honours.

1 MS. MOTOIKE: And if I could next draw your attention and if we

2 could display for the witness 65 ter 1002, which is located at 6 of

3 today's binder.

4 Q. Doctor, drawing your attention to the upper left corner of this

5 particular document it says general city hospital, surgery, Skopje, and

6 then it indicates ward, traumatology, and there's a date, 13 August 2001.

7 And then right below that in handwriting it says -- there's a plus and it

8 says exodus at 1330 hours and in the middle it says history of illness and

9 then the first name to the left, it says Abdulla and the last name below

10 that says Cajani. Do you see those?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you again recognise this particular name, Abdula Cajani?

13 A. Yes. This was the name of the person when he was admitted.

14 Q. And later on this is the person who was later determined to be

15 Atulla Qaili; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And drawing your attention to the bottom of the document, if we

18 could scroll down on both versions, please. There's a signature at the

19 very bottom, it says chief of ward and it indicates assistant,

20 Dr. S. Vuckov. Do you see?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And have you seen these types of documents before from the general

23 city hospital?

24 A. Sometimes along with the body we would receive these types of

25 documents, and for the specific case we did not have a discharge list,

1 that is to say, the history of the illness. However, it doesn't always

2 happen in practice, although we insist, as an institute, to have the whole

3 history of the illness of any deceased patients. The hospitals generally

4 send to us only the mortuary notes.

5 Q. And is this document what would look like to be a typical medical

6 file for a patient from Skopje city hospital?

7 A. Yes. This is the file that -- for a patient that was admitted in

8 the city hospital.

9 Q. And if I could draw your attention, please, and if we could

10 display page 2 of both documents, both versions. And at the very top of

11 this document in bold it indicates "case history," and then skipping down

12 it says, "current illnesses," and then it indicates that "patient admitted

13 as urgent case due to head and neck injuries and contusions on the body as

14 a result of a fall."

15 Do you see that, doctor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And again that is the result of a fall, that is not consistent

18 with your findings; is that correct?

19 A. That is correct.

20 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, can we please tender this document?

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P284, Your Honours.

23 MS. MOTOIKE:

24 Q. Dr. Jakovski, as part of the autopsy for Atulla Qaili, did you

25 also take blood samples for the purposes of toxicology and blood alcohol

1 screenings?

2 A. During the autopsy, from the body of the deceased we have taken

3 blood and urine samples in order to prove possible presence of ethyl

4 alcohol, drugs or medicaments.

5 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt my colleague.

6 Simply, about the document that has just been tendered, we would like to

7 know whether the entire document has been admitted or only the first two

8 pages, because we would wish to use perhaps the same parts but also other

9 parts of the document.

10 JUDGE PARKER: I believe the whole.

11 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 MS. MOTOIKE:

14 Q. And drawing your attention to tab 7, which is 65 ter 996, if we

15 could please display that.

16 Dr. Jakovski, looking at this document, in the upper left corner

17 it says, forensic and criminological institute, Skopje, and then on the

18 right side it says assistant DZ Jakovski and then it goes on to say that

19 on 14/8/2001, Dr. Jakovski performed an autopsy over the deceased person

20 and then it indicates that there was a toxicology analysis, biological

21 material was taken off to determine presence of psychotropic substances,

22 medicines, and ethyl alcohol. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then afterwards it says in bold laboratory finding and then it

25 goes on to indicate negative results for these particular substances that

1 are listed. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then it also indicates later on that it says ethyl alcohol K,

4 ethyl alcohol U, and indicates zero per cent. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were these the particular findings with respect to Atulla Qaili's

7 biological samples and blood?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this, please.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P285, Your Honours.

12 MS. MOTOIKE:

13 Q. Dr. Jakovski, are you familiar with the paraffin glove test?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was a paraffin glove test formed on Atulla Qaili's hands at some

16 point.

17 A. Yes, before the giving of the autopsy, we conducted the paraffin

18 glove test used to prove probable presence of nitrates and nitrites.

19 Q. And can I ask you with respect to -- well, can we please show the

20 doctor P00049, page 33, English, and page 110 Macedonian. It is tab 9 of

21 today's binders.

22 Doctor, the document in front of you indicates at the very top

23 left corner, if we could perhaps minimise the -- yes, thank you.

24 "University Kiril i Metodij," and then it goes on to say, working unit

25 forensic institute and criminology related to SP 11918-245. Indicates a

1 date of 15 August 2001, Skopje. And then in the next sentence it says --

2 relates to a number and a date and it says about now deceased Qaili

3 Atulla, paraffin gloves were taken off his left and right hand during the

4 autopsy." And right underneath the words "laboratory analysis" it

5 indicates that there was one nitrate-nitrite particle on its back side on

6 the lower phalange of the index finger, two nitrate-nitrite particles at

7 the root of the thumb, and five nitrate-nitrite particles on a height of

8 the wrist. And then it goes on to describe other findings.

9 Now, at the very bottom it says analysis were read by, it

10 indicates a Professor Dr. Aleksa Duma and then it indicates assistant

11 Dr. Zlatko Jakovski. Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As a doctor in forensic medicine, you indicated that you deal with

14 the paraffin glove test through your Forensic Institute. Do you also keep

15 abreast of the literature and studies relating to this particular test as

16 well as other types of tests relating to the presence of nitrates?

17 A. Yes. Around the world there are much more sophisticated methods

18 than this one.

19 Q. And with respect to this particular test, this paraffin glove

20 test, if nitrate particles are detected, is this conclusive evidence that

21 someone actually fired a weapon?

22 A. Whether the Your Honours will be -- will allow for me to briefly

23 describe the logic behind the paraffin glove test.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all I would like to say

1 that proving through -- powder particles through the diphenylamine method

2 which is being used when conducting the paraffin glove test is a

3 non-specific method. Because in this way you can prove only the presence

4 of nitrates and nitrites, which besides in gunpowder particles can be

5 found also in fertilisers, photographic material, people working in the

6 pharmaceutical industry, people who smoke cigarettes. However, with the

7 paraffin glove test, one can prove the precise location of the nitrates

8 and nitrates, and if one performs a trial shot with the precise weapon, in

9 such case, this can be used as evidence. That is why we use this method

10 at our institute, unfortunately, just this one method, because of our

11 limit the financial possibilities at our institute for purchasing of

12 equipment required for more sophisticated modern methods and technologies

13 in order to prove the presence of powder particles.

14 Q. I guess my question to you, doctor, was with respect to this test,

15 then, is it a conclusion that one can draw, an absolute conclusion, that

16 if particles are found that this -- the particular person that was tested

17 actually fired a weapon or even held a weapon?

18 A. With this particular method, one can only prove the presence of

19 nitrates and nitrites, and specifically to prove whether this person shot

20 a gun, one has to perform a trial shot using the very same weapon.

21 Q. Can I ask you, doctor, were the hands of Atulla Qaili protected or

22 preserved in some way when the body came for autopsy?

23 A. The hands of the deceased were not protected.

24 Q. And you mentioned in your prior answer that particles can be found

25 in other common products, everyday products. Can I ask you, could the

1 lack of preservation of the hands lead to contamination as well?

2 A. One cannot exclude the possibility for the hands to be

3 contaminated.

4 Q. Are paraffin glove tests requested in every autopsy performed in

5 your institute?

6 A. No. Paraffin glove tests are done in cases the deceased ones have

7 participated in some shooting or where there are suspicions concerning a

8 given case of shooting.

9 Q. And who decided to do the particular paraffin test in the case of

10 Atulla Qaili?

11 A. Professor Duma and myself.

12 Q. So no outside body requested that you perform the test?

13 A. No.

14 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, that last document, I believe has

15 already been admitted. So I with like to move on to tab 10 of today's

16 binder. It is 65 ter 279.3. It bears ERN N001-7427.

17 Q. And, Dr. Jakovski, I'd just like to show you a couple of

18 additional documents.

19 Does the document, the second -- well, let start at the top here.

20 The upper left-hand corner it says clinic for surgical diseases and then

21 it lists the place Skopje, and in the middle it says discharge paper.

22 Indicates right below that the insured person Cajani Abdula. It says

23 village, Ljuboten. And then goes on to say admitted to hospital treatment

24 on 13 August 2001 and discharged on 13 August 2001. And then below it

25 lists with the diagnosis, I believe there are some Latin medical terms

1 there. And it says operation, stitching of wounds. And then it says

2 directions for further treatment.

3 And the second sentence of that paragraph says: "The history of

4 decease received from others than the patient gave an information that the

5 injury was caused by falling down." And in the very last sentence it

6 says: "At around 1330 hour, a sudden death of the patient occurred."

7 At the time of the autopsy -- I know that you have testified to

8 receiving some type of discharge paper typically when you receive

9 autopsies. At the time of Atulla Qaili's autopsy, had you received this

10 particular discharge paper?

11 A. No.

12 Q. If I could draw your attention, yesterday you indicated that

13 typically in additional paperwork that you get with the body, you usually

14 get a description of the diagnosis and injury. If I could draw your

15 attention to the last paragraph that I read where it says directions for

16 further treatment, does that information contained in that paragraph

17 reflect what typically would be given to you as part of the autopsy

18 paperwork?

19 A. When we are given sometimes such documents, then the epicrisis of

20 mortuary note -- then the mortuary note of the epicrisis states these

21 things.

22 Q. And could I ask you if you had this particular information, for

23 example, the sentence I read to you about the injury was caused by falling

24 down, if you had had this particular information, would that have changed

25 your opinion regarding the cause of death?

1 A. In the epicrisis, the doctor gives the data that he receives when

2 he -- when the patient is brought as he is told in the original way, and

3 it is his duty to write them down in that way.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 A. In the concrete case, we can write down these remarks, that they

6 exist, as such, but as forensics, we know which injury, how it occurred,

7 from what it was caused; therefore, even if we had this information, we

8 would have given the same opinion as we have given it in the section

9 protocol.

10 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we tender this document, please.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P286, Your Honours.

13 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could turn next to tab 11 of today's binders,

14 which is 65 ter 279.7. It bears ERN N001-7431.

15 Q. And, doctor, drawing your attention to the upper part of this

16 document, in the middle says certificate. It goes on to say the city

17 general hospital, and then goes on to say Abdula Cajani from the village

18 Ljuboten, who died on 13 August 2001 at 1339 hours. And it lists a

19 diagnosis and then it has a seal there. Do you recognise this seal as one

20 that would typically come from the city general hospital?

21 A. Yes. This is the seal of the city hospital of Skopje.

22 Q. And did you have this particular document at the time of the

23 autopsy of Atulla Qaili?

24 A. No.

25 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we tender this document, please.

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P287, Your Honours.

3 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could next turn to tab 12 of today's binder,

4 if we could display for the witness 65 ter 279.5.

5 Q. And, Doctor, drawing your attention to the left portion of this

6 document in the middle there it says death certificate and then it lists

7 first and last name, maiden name at number 1, and I believe the words we

8 can make out is at least first name of Atulla, lists at number three date

9 of death 13 August 2001, and at number 4 place of death, city hospital

10 Skopje, and then if we could scan over to the right side of the document,

11 both versions, towards the bottom it says signature, I believe there is a

12 seal there. Signature of pathologist and it says Dr. Zlatko Jakovski.

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then if we could, please, scan back over to number, I

16 believe -- well, it's 11-B on the right side. And it indicates there

17 that the death was and there is an underscore or a box checked as

18 violent. Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And did you actually issue this particular death certificate

21 yourself?

22 A. Yes. This is a certificate issued by our institute.

23 Q. And is this -- just for the record, is this pertaining to the same

24 Atulla Qaili that you've already testified about?

25 A. Yes.

1 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we please tender this.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P288, Your Honours.

4 MS. MOTOIKE: Then if we could turn to tab 13 of today's binder,

5 and if we could show for the witness 65 ter 999.1, I believe.

6 Q. Doctor, drawing your attention to the upper left corner, this

7 document says WU forensic and criminological institute, gives a number and

8 then it gives a date of 22/5/2003, says Skopje underneath. It says to

9 Basic Court Skopje II and has a Judge Dragan Niklovski and then indicates

10 as the subject, delivery of autopsy protocols for exhumations in Ljuboten

11 village. And then in the first paragraph it says that these exhumations

12 were performed upon your order in the time from 9 April 2003 to 23 April

13 2003, in presence of observers from the ICTY.

14 And then the last paragraph, I believe on both pages it says: "In

15 this context we would like to mention that this is our first serious and

16 official conversation regarding the critical incident with both

17 representatives of the Macedonian judiciary and the international

18 community."

19 Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If we could turn to page 2 of the document in both versions. At

22 the very bottom of this page it says in the name of the professional

23 staff, professor Dr. Aleksa Duma, and then to the left it says delivered

24 to and it lists these persons, prime minister of the government of RM

25 Ministry of Interior of RM, minister of justice of RM, ambassador of US in

1 RM. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are you familiar with the exhumations that took place in Ljuboten

4 village that are referred to in this particular correspond?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And do you recognise this signature of Dr. Aleksa Duma?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And are you aware of the contents of this particular letter? That

9 is to say, were you informed that this particular correspondence was

10 written by Dr. Duma at the time?

11 A. This correspondence was done by a smaller number of professors at

12 the institute. But, in general, at the professional meetings that we

13 have, at the staff meetings that we have, the wider staff was informed

14 about this.

15 MS. MOTOIKE: Could we tender this document, please.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P289, Your Honours.

18 MS. MOTOIKE:

19 Q. Dr. Jakovski, did anyone from the Macedonian police ever contact

20 you regarding the circumstances of Atulla Qaili's death?

21 A. A few days after the autopsy. I don't remember how many days

22 after the autopsy --

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry, doctor. My

24 question was -- well, let me ask you this. You said you don't remember

25 how many days after the autopsy. Could you tell us who you were contacted

1 by?

2 A. I was contacted by inspectors from the identification department

3 with a court order to conduct an exact identification of the person -- of

4 the person Atulla Qaili because in our institute he was admitted under

5 another name, Abdula Cajani.

6 Q. And was that the substance of your conversation with this

7 particular inspector?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And other than that, did you have any conversations with anyone

10 from the Macedonian police regarding your autopsy findings with respect to

11 Atulla Qaili?

12 A. Not -- no. I didn't have any conversation, me personally.

13 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, I have no further questions. Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

16 We will now have the first break and will resume at quarter past

17 4.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

21 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux:

23 Q. Good afternoon, doctor. My name is Guenael Mettraux and together

24 with my colleague Edina Residovic, I'm appearing on behalf of

25 Mr. Boskoski.

1 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, perhaps before we start, we'll have

2 binders of document distributed to the Court, to the witness, and we also

3 have a copy for the Prosecution.

4 Q. Sir, before we start with the substance of your evidence, I would

5 like to ask you a few questions about the structure and position of your

6 substitute. Is it correct that the institute, the Forensic Institute is

7 independent from the government?

8 A. The Forensic Institute and Criminology is part of the medical

9 faculty in Skopje within the university Kiril and Metodij. The autonomy

10 of the institute is guaranteed with the very autonomy of the university.

11 And in that respect we are an independent research and scientific

12 institute.

13 Q. Is that correct, Doctor, that the only link, if I may use that

14 term, with the state authorities is with the ministry of education because

15 your institute also provides education to medical students. Is that

16 correct?

17 A. The only link to the government of the Republic of Macedonia is

18 related to the part which is funded by the ministry of education

19 concerning the -- the lectures that we provide to the medical school

20 students to the stomatology [as interpreted] and to the law faculty. All

21 are the services that are offered by the institute whose final

22 beneficiaries are the courts of the Republic of Macedonia, the interior

23 ministry, and the legal entities of the Republic of Macedonia. In that

24 respect, we work for them on -- upon the grounds of free economic

25 cooperation, which means that all of them, for our services, pay in

1 accordance with the price list of the services provided by the institute.

2 .

3 Q. So, sir, if an organ or an institution of the states requires your

4 services, do I understand properly that they would have to pay for those

5 services. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. For each service of ours there is a price and they have to

7 pay it.

8 Q. Is that also correct that the government or its ministries cannot

9 give you any orders or instructions as pertains to your work. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. No one can give any order related to the way we should work. We

12 only get orders from investigating judges to conduct an autopsy or some

13 other forensic expertise, but this is not an order which says how and in

14 which way to do it, but it is only an order to collect evidence for a

15 given case.

16 Q. Well, perhaps to pick on your last answer, you indicated that

17 yesterday that such a request for an autopsy could only come - and correct

18 me if I'm wrong - from the investigative judge according to the criminal

19 procedure or from the hospital in relation to the law on health. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the request -- or the police does not have the authority or

23 the power under the law of Macedonia to make such a request to you; is

24 that correct?

25 A. The police does not have the right to issue an order for autopsy

1 pursuant to the laws of the Republic of Macedonia.

2 Q. And simply to wrap up with the information about your institute,

3 sir, is that correct that today as well as in 2001 the director of the

4 institute was Professor Duma?

5 A. Yes, Professor Dr. Aleksa Duma is still the director of the

6 Forensic Institute.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. I would like you to assist if you may with a few

8 general questions about the way in which deceased person are brought to

9 your institute, and I will take you a few steps back.

10 Could the witness please be shown document which is under tab 7 of

11 your binder.

12 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, this is Exhibit P259. Under the ERN

13 N000-5166 - N00-5166-ET and the Macedonian version of that document is

14 N005-0574 - N005-0574.

15 Q. Do you have that document in front of you, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If we way focus first on the top left-hand corner of the document,

18 you can see that it comes from the sector of interior, Skopje, department

19 of interior, Cair, and more specifically, the Mirkovic -- Mirkovci police

20 station. Can you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It is submitted by Dragan Surlov on the 13th of August, 2001. Can

23 you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it's an Official Note number 1192; is that correct?

1 A. Yes, I can see that.

2 Q. And the subject of that Official Note is as follows: "Qaili

3 Atulla, medical assistance requested for detained person taken to GOB,

4 city hospital." Can you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then there is a text that follows. It says this: "On 13

7 August 2001 at 1430" --

8 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I think we have corrected this

9 mistake. The original says 4.30 in the morning.

10 Q. "Atulla Qaili asked for medical assistance. I called an ambulance

11 which arrived in the police station and they said that the person must be

12 taken to a hospital. I informed the sector of the interior, Major Ilija

13 Dzambaski as well as deputy operations centre of Skopje, who allowed the

14 person to be taken to the city hospital," and it's signed by Dragan

15 Surlov. Can you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And is it correct, sir, that the ambulance service in Macedonia is

18 under the overall system an organisation of the hospital services in the

19 country?

20 A. I think that the ambulance service functions as a separate unit

21 with -- in the relation to the hospitals.

22 Q. And it falls institutionally within the responsibility of the

23 hospital system; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Sir, once a patient is brought to the hospital, is that correct

1 that he or she would be registered upon arrival?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the responsibility to register him in the hospital registries

4 would be with the doctor on duty. Is that correct?

5 A. The team on duty, the doctor, the nurse and so on.

6 Q. Could the witness please be shown what is now P283.

7 Doctor, it is under tab number 8 in your binder. You will recall

8 that my colleague has shown you the document a bit earlier. And if I can

9 focus --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... your attention on the third

12 line in that document it says that Mr. Abdula Cajani was admitted on 13

13 August 2001 by Dr. Nabasa Nastov, intern. Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And would that be the person who, in fact, entered the datas and

16 information upon the arrival and registration of Mr. Qaili?

17 A. Yes, probably yes, since he signed the document.

18 Q. And is that correct that upon registration, the doctor on duty or

19 the person who does the registration form would record a number of

20 information about the patient that has been brought to the hospital?

21 A. The doctor enters all the information he gets from the patient or

22 from the persons that have brought him. He enters the information just

23 the way they have been told to him. He must not add anything or change

24 anything.

25 Q. And would that include the name of the patient, if it is known to

1 the doctor?

2 A. Yes, the name as well.

3 Q. Is that correct, doctor, that the doctor on duty doesn't know at

4 that time the name of the patient, he would generally enter an X in place

5 of the name of the person?

6 A. Usually it's an MM, an unknown -- which means an unknown person.

7 MR. METTRAUX: Well, could the witness please be shown what is now

8 P284. It will be the 8th page of that document in the English. And--

9 Q. Sorry, doctor, it is tab 9 of your binder.

10 And it's again part of this history or medical record of

11 Mr. Qaili, and under the name and surname, can you see an inscription

12 saying "X, male"?

13 Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is that correct, sir, that if the name of the person, of the

16 patient becomes known to the doctor on duty later during that day, the

17 name would then be recorded as understood and learned by him?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If we can please move to what is page 4 of the same document,

20 still P284.

21 Do you have that document, sir? It says: "Admittance record for

22 patient."

23 We're trying to find the Macedonian version, doctor, for you. I

24 think I have it. I think it is page 9. It would be ERN N006-3761. It's

25 page 9 of the Macedonian.

1 Do you have the document?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And as you can see under this document it says "Admittance record

4 for patient." It is still dated the 13th of August 2001. And under the

5 name and last name of the patient it is written "Cajani Abdula." Can you

6 see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And if you go to point 6 of that document it says: "Admitted to

9 hospital on 13 August 2001, 5.00 on trauma ward as emergency."

10 Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And, sir, perhaps are you able to recognise the signature that is

13 on the Macedonian version of that document?

14 A. I can see the signature, but I can -- I don't know whose signature

15 this is.

16 Q. Sir, I'd like to read a passage of a statement taken from

17 Dr. Nastov by the Prosecution. It is Rule 65 ter 1D231, 1D002497.

18 MR. METTRAUX: Unfortunately, Your Honour, we don't have a

19 Macedonian version of that document. If I could ask the registry to move

20 to the third page of that document at paragraph 8, please.

21 Q. Doctor, I'll read the paragraph to you since there is no

22 Macedonian version. It says this: "I can't remember anymore the precise

23 time when I received the first person from Ljuboten. But I can refer to

24 the date and time, looking into the records of this person. According to

25 the file, it was 5.00 in the morning of the 13 August 2001. I can confirm

1 the entries in the medical file. I identify my handwriting and my

2 signatures."

3 Sir, would that be consistent with the document I've just shown

4 you and the information which was contained in that document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, looking at paragraph 9 further down - again I'll read it out

7 to you. It says this: "I can't remember who delivered the patient. But

8 I can say that I was admitting the patient as 'X man.' That means he was

9 admitted as an unidentified male person."

10 Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I was not aware that the patient was somehow related to the events

13 in Ljuboten until I finished my shift. I can't remember if this person

14 was guarded by the police or not."

15 Then goes on to say, there a sentence -- two sentences, and it

16 says: "Reading the file I used the term not approachable, which means he

17 was conscious but disorientated. I didn't want to communicate or the

18 language barrier prevented a communication. I can't remember if I had a

19 conversation with him. Being asked from whom I received the information

20 written in the medical file that the person was falling down, I say this

21 information came probably from the patient himself. He probably told me

22 this."

23 Then goes on to say this: "I have been shown the dismissal letter

24 signed by me on 13 August 2001 in which I used the term

25 heteroanamnesticki. I agree this term would indicate that I learned about

1 the patient's history from somebody else other than the patient. Today, I

2 can only explain that this might have been a small slip on my side. I say

3 that the patient's history written on the second page of the medical file

4 is more accurate and was written at the time when I admitted the patient.

5 In this version, the above-mentioned term is not mentioned. I therefore

6 think that the patient told me by himself that he was fallen down." Can

7 you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And would that account be consistent with the documents that I've

10 shown you and which have been shown to you by my colleague of the

11 Prosecution?

12 A. It corresponds to the data that were shown by the Prosecutor's

13 office and also it is written here that he had fallen.

14 Q. And I think we've understood from your evidence that the person

15 who entered the name of the patient in the record would have been

16 Dr. Nastov himself. Is that correct?

17 A. According to the last thing that you have shown me, yes.

18 Q. If I may ask you to go to the next page of that statement, sir.

19 This would be the next page for the registry, paragraph 13, 1-3.

20 This is what Dr. Nastov told the Prosecution, Doctor: "Being

21 asked, I say probably the nurses told me in the afternoon of 13 August

22 2001 the name Abdula Cajani as the person's name I received as unknown X

23 man. I, by myself, don't know where this name came from."

24 Can you see that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Consistent with the two

2 documents I have just shown you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then, Dr. Nastov is asked by the Prosecution in paragraph 15,

5 if we can move down a bit, and he's answered this: "Being asked about the

6 identity of the person that I admitted as X man, I have to say that I have

7 learned only a few days ago that the person had obviously two different

8 identities."

9 Can you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now I'd like to ask you a few questions about the transfer of a

12 deceased person from the city hospital to your institute.

13 Is that correct that such transport is the responsibility, once

14 again, of the ambulance and also the hospital system?

15 A. Bodies are transported from a hospital or from another location to

16 our institute by the cemetery company - its name is Butel - and not by an

17 ambulance.

18 Q. Is that correct that the morgue in Butel is part of the municipal

19 system? It's not part of any of the ministries. Is that correct?

20 A. That is a joint stock company. It has been privatized.

21 Q. But at the time in 2001, is that correct that it was part of the

22 municipality of Skopje?

23 A. I don't remember this. I don't know.

24 Q. You have been asked by my colleague about document which you

25 received about -- together with the body of Mr. Qaili. Do you recall?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you've said that at the time you received only one page, and

3 you indicated that there was nothing unusual in that respect; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that correct also that there is was no reason for you to query

7 this matter further to ask the hospital, on the second page, if any had

8 gone missing. Is that correct?

9 A. We don't have the right to investigate. That is part of the tasks

10 of the investigative bodies, primarily the investigating judge. We are a

11 service for the court. We are not a law enforcement body.

12 Q. And is that correct also, doctor, that the responsibility to

13 transmit the paperwork or the papers from the hospital was with the

14 administrative department of the city hospital?

15 A. Yes, that is their competence.

16 Q. I'd like to ask you a few question about the autopsy of Mr. Qaili

17 which you've carried out. And if you could turn to page -- to tab 13 of

18 your binder, sir. This is again the section protocol which was shown to

19 you by my colleague a bit earlier.

20 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, just as a matter of clarification,

21 we'll use P49, which is ET N0010095-01. The reason for this, Your Honour,

22 is at this stage this is the translation which is part of this document

23 which is slightly different than the translation used by my colleague, and

24 since it hasn't been formally exchanged we will use this one. The content

25 is similar.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

2 MR. METTRAUX:

3 Q. Doctor, it is also in your binder at tab 1-3, if it is more

4 practical for you to look at the paper version. You have the document in

5 front of you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. If I may quickly go through the first part of that document. It

8 refers to the autopsy having been performed on 14 August 2001, and as you

9 have indicated, it suggests that it's been done on request of the general

10 city hospital Naum Ohridski Skopje. Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then there's a section which is entitled data on the subject

13 of the case, and it says this: "From the mortuary certificate which was

14 issued by the general city hospital, Sv. Naum Ohridski, this data was

15 obtained and bearing the name of the deceased Qaili Atulla was entered as

16 Abdula Cajani with the following diagnosis."

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Then it goes on to cite the diagnosis in question. Then the next

20 sentence says this: "On 16 August 2001, a written report was delivered by

21 the investigative judge of the Basic Court Skopje II, Skopje, where it is

22 cited that the name of the person Qaili Atulla in the mortuary certificate

23 was entered as Abdula Cajani by mistake."

24 Can you see that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And I think you've indicated already that there was nothing

2 unusual about a request being made for an autopsy by the hospital itself,

3 is that correct; it was in fact was quite frequent?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is that also correct, sir, that any requests for an autopsy,

6 whether it comes from the investigative judge or from the hospital, is

7 being sent to the institute and more specifically to Professor Duma and

8 not to the other doctors within that institute?

9 A. Any request for an expert report, including the autopsies, are

10 addressed to the institute and not to an individual doctor.

11 Q. And would Professor Duma be the person responsible to deal with

12 those requests?

13 A. Professor Duma reviews the requests and is involved -- informed

14 about the overall daily operation of the institute. And mainly the

15 autopsies are performed by the duty team and there is a monthly schedule

16 for that team.

17 Q. Doctor, can you recall that two days or so after the autopsy had

18 been performed a request from the investigative judge for information and

19 identification of Mr. Qaili was sent to the institute?

20 A. Yes. A request was sent by an investigating judge in order to

21 ascertain the true identity of the person Atulla Qaili.

22 Q. And, sir, did Professor Duma at the time show you that document?

23 A. Most probably yes. I don't recall.

24 MR. METTRAUX: Can the witness now be shown what is Exhibit P54,

25 with an ERN ET-N001-9697-009, and it is under tab 14 of your binder. The

1 Macedonian version is N001-9643-055.

2 Q. Do you have that document, sir?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If you can go and look at the top left-hand corner of that

5 document it says Lower Court Skopje II, Skopje, investigative judge, and

6 then there is a number which is 436-01 and a date, 14 August 2001. Can

7 you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Title of the document is

10 Official Note. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Let me draw your attention to the first paragraph of that

13 document. It says this: "On 14 August 2001 I visited the city general

14 hospital in Skopje and talked with Dr. Viktor Kamilovski with regard to

15 the health condition of the following detained individuals." And then he

16 goes on to list four names.

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the fourth name is Mr. Atulla Qaili; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And if we can go to the next paragraph it records the following

22 information: "Individuals Bajrami Nevaip and Ramadani Ismail were

23 admitted to the city general hospital on Skopje on 13 August 2001 at

24 approximately 2115 hours with Ametovski Adem at 2320 and Qaili Atulla at 5

25 hours on 13 August 2001."

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... So the timing of the

4 registration or arrival of Mr. Qaili at the city hospital is correct. Is

5 that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And if we can jump over the next paragraph to go over the

8 paragraph which starts the word "Qaili Atulla," it says this: "Qaili

9 Atulla was admitted on 8 August at 5 hours but succumbed to his injury on

10 the same day at 1339 hours. However, he is registered in medical

11 documentation under the name Abdula Cajani, born 3 November 1965 in

12 Skopje, with residence in the village of Ljuboten, according to

13 information provided during his admittance."

14 Can you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then an order was handed down for an autopsy to be performed

17 on his body at the forensic institute at the medical faculty in Skopje.

18 Can see this?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then in the next paragraph it goes on to recount another visit

21 that the judge paid at the city hospital and it is signed by investigative

22 Judge Velce Pancevski. Can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I have a few question about the procedure of the autopsy.

25 Is that correct that generally when the investigative judge make a

1 request for an autopsy, he would be present during the autopsy itself?

2 A. It very rarely happens that an investigating judge is present at

3 an autopsy. Mainly they only issue an order.

4 Q. And as far as the police is concerned, is that correct that they

5 can attend if invited by the judge to do so?

6 A. It is also a very rare occurrence that the police is present at an

7 autopsy, but if it is needed for them to collect some evidence during the

8 autopsy, then we invite them and we then hand that evidence over to them.

9 Q. And who would invite them? Would that be your institute or would

10 that be the investigative judge?

11 A. Through the investigating judge.

12 Q. And is that correct that the police cannot supervise the process

13 of autopsy even if they are present during the procedure?

14 A. They could not supervise it or make any instructions or -- on what

15 we should do and how we should do it.

16 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, simply to correct a mistake which

17 appears to be a mistake of mine at page 47, line 15, it says 8th of

18 August, and I believe it should say 13th of August.

19 Q. Is this correct, sir, that if the police attends an autopsy of a

20 deceased, the presence of the police would be noted in the autopsy

21 protocol?

22 A. Usually we do not record this. If they are present there, they're

23 just present as technical personnel and nothing else.

24 Q. And if the police is present, would you make a specific annotation

25 to that effect?

1 A. No, we do not do it.

2 Q. I think you've indicated that there was a bit of uncertainty at

3 some stage about the exact identity of Mr. Qaili. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is that correct also that the investigative judge queried the

6 matter with your institute?

7 A. Yes. An investigating judge requested for an accurate

8 identification of the person to be performed.

9 MR. METTRAUX: Could this witness please be shown Exhibit P54,

10 which is ET N001-9712 and the Macedonian version is N001-9643-070.

11 Your Honour, this is under tab 15 of the binder, 1-5.

12 Q. Do you have that document, doctor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Top left-hand corner, it says

15 Basic Court Skopje II, Skopje. Can you see that?

16 A. Skopje II, Skopje, yes.

17 Q. And underneath that there is a line of question marks. Can you

18 see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. METTRAUX: Simply at this stage we would like to point this.

21 The original Macedonian of the document, as you can see from the copy, is

22 also illegible as far as the date is concerned. However, in the exhibit

23 tendered by the Prosecution, P55, there is the exact same letter, the very

24 same letter, with an ERN of N001-9713. And in that version, the date is

25 clearly legible as being the 16 of August 2001. We will make a request in

1 due course to have that other letter translated.

2 Q. I'm sorry, Doctor, can we go on now to the right-hand corner. You

3 can see it is sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine at the medical

4 faculty, Skopje. Can you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And perhaps before I go further into the text, you recognise this

7 letter as the one that had been shown you by Dr. Duma, Professor Duma at

8 the time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So if we go back -- if we go down a bit to the subject header it

11 says, "Request on identification of a person Qaili Atulla." Can you see

12 that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if we focus on the first paragraph it records the

15 following: "With a decision made by the investigative judge at the Basic

16 Court Skopje II, Skopje, under KY number 436-01, dated 14 August 2001, an

17 investigation has been implemented against accused Qaili Atulla."

18 Can you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And further done in this same paragraph, the first paragraph, it

21 says that detention has been imposed together with other accused in period

22 of 30 days considering from 14 August 2001 at 12.30 to 13 September 2001

23 at 12.30 because of existence of legal basis from Article 184, paragraph

24 1, items 1, 2, and 3, from the ZKP because of the well-founded suspicion

25 he has committed criminal act terrorism due to Article 313, from KZ," that

1 is the criminal code.

2 Can you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then the next paragraph mentions the following: "During the

5 investigative procedure the investigative judge has been informed by the

6 Ministry of Interior of Republic of Macedonia, SVR Skopje, OVR Cair,

7 Skopje, that accused Atulla Qaili because his health condition got worse

8 has been transferred with an ambulance vehicle to the general city

9 hospital, Skopje for medical treatment on 13 August 2001 at about 4.30 but

10 during the day he has died."

11 Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Documents we have seen

14 earlier?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then it goes on to say this: "On 14 August 2001 the investigative

17 judge has visit the general city hospital Skopje and he has had a

18 conversation with Dr. Kamilovski and Dr. Nikola Gruev, who is director of

19 the general city hospital Skopje. And therein he has been informed that

20 accused Qaili Atulla has been brought and received at the general city

21 hospital Skopje on 13 August 2001 at 5.00 and he died the same day, 13

22 August 2001, at 1339."

23 Can you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, again, that is consistent with the documents which we've

1 discussed earlier?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then it goes to say: "The general city hospital Skopje has hand

4 over the body of the deceased to the Institute for Forensic Medicine at

5 the medical faculty Skopje for autopsy." Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And again that would be consistent with what you have seen and

8 said before. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The next paragraph says a certificate of -- a certificate, a

11 dismissal letter with a history of illness has been prepared with a number

12 of 3020-2001 by the general city hospital Skopje and also a mortuary

13 enclosure dated from 13 August 2001. But the medical documentation on

14 person Abdula Cajani has been issued when this person has been registered

15 under this name and last name when he has been received at general city

16 hospital Skopje.

17 Can you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And finally it says: "Concerning the fact of differences in name

20 and last name of the deceased person, whereas the possibility it is same

21 person Qaili Atulla is a matter of fact, we need to be informed if it is

22 the same person Atulla Qaili and if identification, autopsy, and medical

23 testimony have been performed so that the investigative judge can proceed

24 in accordance with a court of the criminal procedure."

25 Can you see that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And it is signed by Velce Pancevski; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Is that consistent with your

5 recollection of this document and the discussion you had with Professor

6 Duma at the time?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sir, there's another document I'd like to show you now. It is it

9 Prosecution Rule 65 ter 381 with an ERN N000-1255-ET and the Macedonian

10 version is N000-1255. And it is under tab 16 of your binder.

11 Is that correct, sir, that the responsibility to establish the

12 identity of a deceased person is with the investigative judge and not with

13 your institute?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If I can ask you to focus on the top left-hand corner of that

16 document, once again it says primary court Skopje II, Skopje,

17 investigation department, and again the same number 436-01 with the date

18 16 August 2001.

19 Can you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And it is it addressed to the prison Skopje, Skopje for the

22 director. Can you see this?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then a subject title and a reference title with again the

25 number of the case and date, 14 August 2001.

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in the next paragraph it again referred to an investigation

4 procedure by the same number against a number of individuals and if you

5 look at the third line there's the name Qaili Atulla. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And further down in that it mentions the fact that detention

8 measures have been ordered against those people by the investigative judge

9 on 14 August 2001. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then there is a second paragraph starting with the word "in

12 order to determine," which says the following: "In order to determine the

13 identification of the detained person Qaili Atulla," and then there's a

14 number of datas about this person, "the investigating judge referred with

15 a letter KINO number 436-01 dated 16 August 2001 to the Institute for

16 Forensic Medicine at the faculty of medicine, Skopje and to the ministry

17 of internal affairs of Republic of Macedonia, directorate for internal

18 affairs, Skopje, sector for administrative affair in order to collect

19 data-identification of the detained person and an excerpt from the

20 registered of the deceased."

21 Can you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As far as it refers to the faculty or the Institute for Forensic

24 Medicine, this passage would be consistent with the letters that I have

25 shown you just previously. Is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then the follow is recorded: "From the submitted medical

3 documentation from the general city hospital, Skopje, the investigative

4 judge determined that the person listed under the name Abdula Cajani from

5 the village Ljuboten, Skopje, who was accepted at the general city

6 hospital, Skopje on 13 August 2001 at 5 hours is the same deceased person

7 on 13 August 2001 at 1339."

8 Can you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And again it is signed by the investigative judge Pancevski. Is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would seek to tender this document.

14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 1D67, Your Honours.

16 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

17 Q. Sir, you've indicated, I believe, that you were able to state the

18 real name of Mr. Qaili in the section protocol in your evidence in chief.

19 I think you mentioned that you met with relatives of Mr. Qaili. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is that also correct that you were able to do so because of the

23 letter of the investigative judge that you received on the 16th?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that also correct that Mr. Pancevski visited your institute

1 after had you performed the autopsy on to Mr. Qaili?

2 A. I think that he visited. I cannot recall. I can't be certain,

3 but I believe that he visited it personally.

4 Q. Well, I'm -- perhaps I can assist you there, doctor.

5 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown what is P54 with

6 an ERN N001-N699-ET-001, and the Macedonian version of that document is

7 under the ERN N001-9643-184.

8 Q. Doctor, you can turn to tab 17, 1-7, of your binder.

9 Do you have the document, doctor?

10 A. Yes, yes, I can see it.

11 Q. If you look at the top left-hand corner of this document it again

12 says Basic Court Skopje II, Skopje, investigative unit, again the same

13 number 436-01 and it's dated 20 August 2001 can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it is again an Official Note and it is signed by investigative

16 Judge Velce Pancevski. Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. If you go on to the first paragraph it says this: "On 20 August

19 2001 at 8.45 hours I have been at the Institute for Forensic Medicine at

20 the medical faculty Skopje regarding to the investigative case KIN 036-01.

21 Can you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it goes on to say: "And in relation with the letter delivered

24 to the medical faculty, Skopje to collect data and identification on

25 accused Qaili Atulla from the village of Ljuboten, Skopje." Then in the

1 next paragraph it said: "I had a conversation with Professor

2 Dr. Boskovski and Dr. Zlatko Jakovski and I have been informed of the

3 following. Can you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It says from the general city hospital, Skopje, clinic for

6 surgery, diseases, Skopje, on "14 August 2001 the deceased person has been

7 brought to the institute for forensic medicine and medical documentation.

8 Death certificate, letter of dismissal with illness history number

9 3020-01, and a letter to the mortuary subsidiary entered with name Cajani

10 Abdula from the village of Ljuboten, Skopje.

11 Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It also says: "An autopsy and court medical testimony has been

14 obtained and a section protocol SP number 11918-245-01 dated from 14

15 August 2001 has been prepared by Dr. Aleksa Duma and Dr. Zlatko Jakovski."

16 Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Refresh your memory about the

19 events and the meeting with Judge Pancevski?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There's a last paragraph, sir, which relates to papillary lines,

22 and I will read it to you. It says this: Papillary lines have been drawn

23 out of the deceased person and a procedure of identification is in the

24 course."

25 Can you see that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And is that correct, sir, that this procedure was not carried out

3 by you or by the institute. Is that correct?

4 A. This procedure for the identification by using the papillary lines

5 is conducted by the Ministry of Interior.

6 Q. Thank you. Sir --

7 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, will -- the document is admitted.

8 Q. Sir, I would like to ask you a number of matters about the nature

9 of your responsibilities as far as your work is concerned.

10 Is that correct that your responsibility and conclusions as far as

11 an autopsy is concerned are purely medical and scientific in nature?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. And the conclusions that you draw are not of a legal character.

14 That's for the investigative judge. Is that correct?

15 A. They don't have a legal character, but just a scientific one.

16 Q. And the responsibility to find out, for instance, what happened

17 with the body of Mr. Qaili would be with the investigative judge. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Sir, I'd like to read out to you a passage taken from a statement

21 of a person called Jovan Serafimovski. We will try to find the ERN number

22 so you can have it in front of you in due course. At this stage I would

23 like to read this paragraph for you. It is taken from an OTP statement of

24 Mr. Serafimovski.

25 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, the document has been marked for

1 identification as 1D227 and it has an ERN 1D002452. It was not marked for

2 identification but it has that number.

3 And if can I ask the registry to go to the first page of that

4 document.

5 Q. As you can see, sir, this is a statement by the Office of the

6 Prosecutor of Mr. Jovan Serafimovski. He is current occupation is public

7 prosecutor, basic public prosecutor's office Skopje, and his former

8 occupation was deputy public prosecutor, basic public prosecutor's office

9 Skopje, and it was taken on the 19th and 20th of 2005.

10 Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. METTRAUX: [Previous translation continues] ... And ask the

13 registry to move on to the next page, paragraph 7. That would be the next

14 page. Thank you very much.

15 Q. Sir, this is what Mr. Serafimovski is recorded as saying to the

16 Office of the Prosecutor: "In the request to conduct an investigation

17 submitted on 14 August 2001, the name of Qaili Atulla is mentioned. It

18 was my obligation to ascertain the cause of death. I asked the

19 investigative judge, Velce Pancevski, to inquire about this. We found

20 that Cajani Adbula was injured during a clash with the police and army in

21 Ljuboten. I was informed from the media that the police and army were

22 there."

23 Can you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It goes on to say: "I don't know which units were there. We never

1 received information like this. I did not ask for information like this.

2 We did not ask because we were told that many people were involved."

3 Can you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then it goes on to say: "The only information that I had

6 about the whereabouts of Qaili Atulla prior to dealt is that Mr. Atulla

7 was in the hospital. Today, for the first time I learned that Mr. Atulla

8 was detained in the police station at Mirkovci. I first found out about

9 his injuries from the death certificate provided by the investigative

10 judge."

11 Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in your experience as a forensic expert, is what

14 Mr. Serafimovski consistent with the obligations and duties of state

15 prosecutors?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR METTRAUX: If I can ask the registry to move on to the next

18 page and to focus on paragraph 10 of this statement.

19 Q. Mr. Serafimovski says this: "With respect to the case of Qaili

20 Atulla referred to under number 7, I was not aware on 14 August 2001 that

21 the accused QA was already dead. I learned about the death of QA by

22 receiving written information from the investigative Judge Velce

23 Pancevski. It was my obligation to find out of the cause of the death of

24 QA. We learned that he had was injured during a clash with the Macedonian

25 security forces in Ljuboten."

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then if you look at paragraph 11 of the statement he says: "I

4 don't know about the circumstances of QA's depth. The only information I

5 have about the whereabouts of QA before he died is that he was in the

6 hospital. I don't know what QA did before he died or where he was before

7 he died."

8 Can you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And if I can go back up a little bit into paragraph 10 once

11 again. Towards the end of this paragraph Mr. Serafimovski says this: "I

12 did not try to find out who was involved in the death of QA, because I was

13 told that a lot of security forces were involved in those events."

14 Can you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. If we can turn to the next page of that statement and focus on

17 paragraph 13.

18 And if you look at the fourth line of that paragraph it says-- it

19 records the following: "Although normally the investigative judge has an

20 obligation to ascertain the cause of the injuries, as I explained earlier,

21 I learned that these persons were injured during the clashes with the

22 Macedonian security forces. It was a war situation and at that time I did

23 not even think about trying to learn the cause of these injuries."

24 Can you see that?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And then at paragraph 15, Mr. Serafimovski said this: "I have

2 read the autopsy file, and I have seen the pictures of the deceased. I

3 say again there was no reason for me to do any further investigative

4 steps. In a war, I presumed that the authorised security forces were not

5 doing anything illegal."

6 Can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. "I believe that there were armed clashes in which this person

9 died." That's how he concludes.

10 Is that correct, sir, that the position of Mr. Serafimovski

11 appears to be that he failed to investigate the matter based on the fact

12 that his understanding that nothing illegal occurred?

13 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, if I may interject. I apologise for

14 the interference, but I don't believe that this particular witness at this

15 time can speak to the opinions or potential actions of another witness,

16 especially since I don't believe there has been any foundation with

17 respect to whether or not Dr. Jakovski actually even knows who this

18 particular person is, let alone whether or not he could actually speak to

19 this persons's actions or state of mind at the time.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

21 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, I was simply asking this witness

22 what his understanding of the explanation given by Mr. Serafimovski was.

23 I wasn't asking him to comment on the accuracy or the -- or otherwise of

24 what this person was saying.

25 JUDGE PARKER: How is the doctor's understanding going to be any

1 better than the understanding of anybody else and especially the

2 understanding of the members of this Chamber?

3 MR. METTRAUX: Of limited value, Your Honour. I will move on.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

5 MR. METTRAUX:

6 Q. Doctor, I would like to ask you now a number of questions about

7 your findings regarding the autopsy of Mr. Qaili. I think you have

8 indicated to my colleague and noted in your dissection protocol that the

9 death of Mr. Qaili appeared to have been the consequence of a traumatic

10 shock. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. Is that correct that the shock you referred to is a general

13 reaction of the organism?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And I think you've pointed out that the shock in question had been

16 caused by a number of what you have qualified as dynamic blunt use of

17 force on to the body. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you able, sir, to date the -- or to put an exact time on to

20 each and every one of the injuries which Mr. Qaili's body had sustained?

21 A. According to the appearance of the injuries, their colouring, I

22 can say that those injuries were recent.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... A time, a time-line on this?

24 A. I can say that they correspond with the documentation related to

25 this incident.

1 Q. Were you able to say, sir, whether they had all been inflicted on

2 to the body at the same time or whether they could have been inflicted at

3 different period of time?

4 A. On the body, we could find injuries that originate from the same

5 time.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Speak of this same time, it

7 is the general time since he was brought -- from the moment when he

8 incurred the injury to the moment when he was brought to your institute?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And is that correct that you are not able to be more specific than

11 that, in the sense that you are not able to say whether within that

12 time-period the injuries were sustained at a particular hour or at a

13 particular time rather than now -- than another. Is that correct? In

14 other words, the injuries on the body of Mr. Qaili could have been

15 inflicted at different time during that general time-period.

16 A. One can never precisely say at what time of day a certain injury

17 was inflicted. When talking about finding out the time when the injuries

18 were inflicted, always this refers to days, weeks or years, and not in

19 hours or minutes.

20 Q. You were asked a number of questions about the injuries sustained

21 by the head and face of Mr. Qaili. Do you recall?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that correct that the head injuries that you identified on the

24 head of Mr. Qaili would not necessarily be deadly, or lethal?

25 A. These injuries, according to their character, are serious bodily

1 injuries with a very specific threat to a person's life.

2 Q. Is that correct, however, that the bleeding inside the head was

3 too thin for this injury to be lethal?

4 A. There was bleeding below the heart and the soft membrane of the

5 brain as well as contusions to the brain itself with an additional

6 fracture of the bones in the base of the skull. Without a medical

7 intervention on time, in order to evacuate the haematoma, the subdural

8 one, and without providing of anti-therapy, therapy in order to reduce the

9 swelling of the brain, these injuries represent an acute threat to the

10 person's or patient's life.

11 However, they are not cause -- a usual cause of immediate death

12 from the very moment when they have been inflicted. Some time has to

13 elapse in order for this swelling to develop.

14 Q. You have also been asked questions about linear injury to the

15 right arm of Mr. Qaili. Do you recall?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you were asked by my colleague to describe the sort of object

18 that could have caused those lines and I think I used the adjective long,

19 heard and blunt. Do you recall?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Are you able to say whether the object in question would have been

22 flat or circular?

23 A. Flat. I can explain why do I believe these objects have been

24 flat.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

1 A. If they were round, then in the middle of the haematoma or the

2 bruise, there should be a lighter coloured zone.

3 Q. Thank you. Is that correct, Doctor, that a patient who has

4 received -- would not receive appropriate treatment after such a series of

5 hits to the body could suffer increased plain?

6 A. Yes. These injuries that have been concluded on the deceased

7 Qaili Atulla have caused major pain.

8 Q. And is that correct that the major pain which he would have felt

9 could in turn have increased the risk of a deadly shock to the body?

10 A. Yes. One of the reasons for a shock is the feeling of pain.

11 Q. I think you've told my colleague also that you inspected the ribs

12 or the ribcage of Mr. Qaili. Do you recall?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I think you mentioned that eight of Mr. Qaili's ribs were

15 broken. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And would that have caused breathing problems to Mr. Qaili at the

18 time?

19 A. With these kind of fractures as being noted for the deceased, I

20 can say that the left lung basically was dysfunctional, because it was

21 impossible to expand the breathing muscles; that is to say, the muscles

22 for breathing could not move because of the broken ribs.

23 Q. And is that a condition that the doctor present would have been

24 able to observe?

25 A. Of course. If you have an X-ray during a medical examination,

1 this should be noticed.

2 Q. And without an X-ray, sir, would the doctor have been able to

3 identify the breathing problems of Mr. Qaili?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what sort of medical treatment would be appropriate in those

6 circumstances?

7 A. Immobilisation, assisted breathing.

8 Q. What about infusion, vitamin, antibiotic, analgesic and Tegrelin,

9 would that be appropriate?

10 A. The analgetics [as interpreted] only reduce the pain and

11 everything else is suboperative therapy and protection from tetanus.

12 Q. So that would not be sufficient, in other words?

13 A. There is sub --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, not suboperative but supporting

15 therapy.

16 MR. METTRAUX:

17 Q. I just repeat my question, doctor. Would a prescription of

18 infusion, vitamin, antibiotic, analgesic and Tegrelin be appropriate or

19 inappropriate considering the condition of Mr. Qaili?

20 A. Appropriate.

21 Q. You have indicated a number of injuries which you have perceived

22 on the body of Mr. Qaili at the time. Did you identify any signs of

23 cigarette burns or other burns to the body?

24 A. We haven't noted if there were any. I am quite sure that they

25 have been -- would have been noted.

1 Q. And just a question about cause of death. Is that correct that,

2 according to your own regulation and in your own medical documentation,

3 you can only list one cause of death, not concurrent causes of death? Is

4 that correct?

5 A. We always provided just one single reason for death, and in the

6 opinion, the last part of the section protocol, there is a description of

7 the way how the death occurred.

8 Q. Thank you, doctor.

9 MR. METTRAUX: Perhaps it is a convenient time, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

11 We need to have the second break now - I think the doctor would

12 probably enjoy that - and we will resume at five minutes past 6.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.

16 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Doctor, you remember I asked you a moment ago what treatment would

18 be -- should be prescribed to a person suffering from the sort of injuries

19 which Mr. Qaili had received at his ribcage, and you said assisted

20 breathing. Do you remember saying that?

21 A. Yes, assisted breathing.

22 Q. And then I asked you about other prescription which consisted of

23 infusion, vitamin, antibiotic, analgesic, and Tegrelin, and then I asked

24 you whether that treatment was appropriate or inappropriate, and you said

25 appropriate.

1 My question to you is this: When you answered my question as to

2 whether the treatment would be appropriate, did you mean those, infusion,

3 vitamin, antibiotic, analgesic, and Tegrelin together with the breathing

4 -- assisted breathing assistance or would the infusion, vitamin, and so

5 on be sufficient in themself, appropriate on their own?

6 A. Apart from this therapy, also anti-edematic therapy should be

7 administered in order to reduce the edema on the brain.

8 Q. And so that we're clear, because my question wasn't -- would an

9 appropriate response to the injuries of Mr. Qaili necessarily include

10 assisted breathing, in your view?

11 A. In the specific case, I think, yes.

12 Q. I would like to ask you now a few questions about the injuries

13 which you were shown earlier by my colleague. Is that correct that many

14 of the injuries which you observed on Mr. Qaili's body would have been

15 consistent with what is known as defensive wounds?

16 A. The characteristic defensive wounds were not found on the body of

17 Atulla Qaili, but the injuries on the right upper arm and lower arm could

18 be defensive wounds, but they are not the typical, the characteristic

19 defensive wounds.

20 Q. I think you you've said the following in your statement to the

21 Prosecution, and I'll ask you to explain what you mean: "We don't exclude

22 the possibility that they are defence wounds but they are not classical

23 defence wounds." That's at paragraph 25 of your statement. What did you

24 mean to say when you said that they were not classical defensive wounds?

25 What was unclassical about them?

1 A. The classical defensive wounds are found in the lower arms in the

2 external side, that means to the say the side where -- where the pinky

3 finger is when a person raises his arm to defend themselves.

4 In that case, you find there bruises, contusions, and in a case of

5 harder force applied, then you -- there are also fractures of the forearm

6 bones.

7 Q. Is that correct that based on the findings that you made on to the

8 body of Mr. Qaili you could not exclude the possibility that those

9 injuries that you described were in fact defensive wounds?

10 A. So we could not be absolutely certain that those are defensive

11 wounds. Rather, they are atypical as defensive wounds go.

12 Q. Thank you. You have also been asked a number of questions about

13 paraffin test and the paraffin glove test. Do you recall?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You've indicated, I believe, that the decision to carry out this

16 test was taken by you and Professor Duma. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know if Professor Duma was asked at the time to perform

19 that particular exercise on the body of Mr. Qaili? Are you aware of that?

20 A. No. That was our decision before the autopsy started.

21 MR. METTRAUX: Can I ask that the registry bring up Rule 65 ter

22 1D226. It's 1D002440.

23 Q. Doctor, that is the OTP statement of Professor Duma. It's

24 taken -- was taken on the 5th of February, 2007 and I would like the

25 registry to go to page 8 of that statement. That's 1D002447, and I will

1 read the paragraph to you, as we don't have a Macedonian version of that

2 document.

3 And if you can look at paragraph 37, doctor, it says the

4 following: "At that time we did paraffin tests quite often."

5 Perhaps I'll ask you this: You have indicated from a scientific

6 point of view, the paraffin glove test was not the most reliable,

7 perhaps. Was there other alternative in Macedonia at the time that was

8 more reliable to determine the nature of nitrate and nitrite particles?

9 A. Not at the time and not even today there is an institution in the

10 Republic of Macedonia which can perform a method more modern than the

11 paraffin test in order to establish the presence of nitrate particles.

12 Q. Thank you. And Mr. Duma, Professor Duma goes on to say this: "As

13 for this particular cases," he's talking about Mr. Qaili, "I do not recall

14 if someone contacted me and spoke to me about the body which would have

15 caused us to do a paraffin test. It is logical that someone called us in

16 this instance, but I cannot say this for certain at this time."

17 Is that consistent with your experience, sir, that when you

18 perform such a test it would generally be either a request or an inquiry

19 from an investigative judge to that effect?

20 A. During the autopsy, we as experts in forensic medicine, if we

21 believe that it is necessary to perform additional tests in order to

22 establish evidence, material evidence, we then perform those without

23 having received an additional order from an investigating judge, and then

24 we inform the judge about the result, and we enter all the data into the

25 section protocol, and we charge it per price list of the institute.

1 Q. Doctor, you have answered my next question, which was, the result

2 of any such test is sent to the investigative judge and to no one else.

3 Is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. You also indicated that the problem with a paraffin glove test is

6 that it is capable to identify nitrites and nitrate particles but that it

7 does not really permit a reliable assessment as to the nature, the

8 scientific nature of those particles. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would it also be correct to say that an experienced specialist

11 could draw certain conclusions or inferences from the appearance, the

12 number, the intensity, the shape, and the position of these particles on

13 the body of an individual?

14 A. Yes. It is possible. A experienced specialist could draw a

15 conclusion depending on the data they have about the event, but to be

16 certain and know whether that person has used the fire-arm in question,

17 one should conduct tests.

18 Q. So what you saying, doctor, is that an experienced practitioner

19 would be able to increase, if you want, the probability of those particles

20 coming from a gun but not to the point of absolute certainty. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. It is correct, because when firing the weapon, the particles, the

23 gunpowder particles are found at particular places on the hand of the

24 person who shot.

25 Q. Is that also correct, sir, that the nitrite particles that come

1 from a gun have a particular shape because they have been burned in the

2 process of the shooting. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that also correct that because of the same process, they are

5 more intense than unburned particles?

6 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

7 Q. Am I correct to understand that a nitrite particle that has burned

8 as a result of the process of shooting from a gun would leave a more

9 intense mark than a particle which would come from another substance

10 containing nitrite?

11 A. I'm not sure with regards to this question. I can't answer it.

12 Q. You have been shown earlier the section protocol or autopsy report

13 that you prepared with Professor Duma. Am I correct to understand that

14 the result of the examination that you have carried out were sent to the

15 investigative judge?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And, once again, the report is not sent to the police. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. No. Only to the investigating judge.

20 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you a question about your experience

21 generally. Is that correct that when an investigative judge learns of the

22 death of an individual who was being investigated, he would seek

23 confirmation to -- from your institute or from another medical institute

24 prior to requesting the withdrawal of the proceedings against that

25 person. Is that correct?

1 A. What should they request from us?

2 Q. Whether an investigative judge would sometimes seek from you

3 confirmation of the death of a particular individual who was the subject

4 of criminal proceedings.

5 A. We issue a death certificate only after we perform the forensic

6 autopsy. Without a forensic autopsy, we could not issue a death

7 certificate.

8 Q. Perhaps I'll help myself making my point clearer.

9 MR. METTRAUX: If the witness could be shown Exhibit P46. It's

10 ET-0463-8876 - 0463-8877-1 and the Macedonian version is Exhibit P46,

11 0463-8774-103.

12 Q. In your binder, sir, it is at tab 18, 1-8.

13 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, simply for the record, there's a date

14 that appears on the top left-hand corner of the English version as 03

15 August 2001. And it seems to come from a stamp in the original version.

16 However, they are two handwritings which Your Honour can identify in the

17 Macedonian version which seem to suggest 309 and 09 further on the right

18 of that document, and that would seem to be consistent with the rest of

19 the document that the date should in fact be 3rd of September, rather than

20 the 3rd of August.

21 Q. Sir, I'd like to draw your attention to the first paragraph. As

22 you can see it's a document, once again, which comes from the

23 investigative Judge Velce Pancevski. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And again it bears the same number on the top right-hand corner,

1 which is KIN 0436-01. Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And on the first paragraph it says that: "Therefore on 21st August

4 2001 the court handed down," and then there's a title, "decision,

5 dismissal of investigation against Qaili Atulla. Can you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then in this paragraph it refers to a decision on enforcement

8 of investigation against that person dated 14 August 2001. Can you see

9 that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And also a decision of detention for a period of 30 days. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. I don't see it. Could you show it to me?

14 Q. Certainly. It's --

15 A. Yes, I saw it. It's okay.

16 Q. Thank you. Then if you go further down into the section with the

17 subheading argument, the second paragraph in that document, Judge

18 Pancevski says the following: "During the investigative procedure it was

19 confirmed that the accused person Qaili Atulla from the village of

20 Ljuboten is deceased."

21 Can you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then it says apparently, within the Official Note KI number

24 436-01 dated 28 August 2001, it is stated that an autopsy was performed

25 and also expert testimony was obtained, that is, a dissection protocol SP

1 number 11918-245-01 dated 14 August 2001 from the Forensic Institute at

2 the medical faculty Skopje. Can you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Protocol, sir, is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then Judge Pancevski goes on to say this: "Identification was

8 performed during the investigation which is evident within the Official

9 Note number 351, certified under number 19.5.1-1651 dated 20 August 2001

10 obtained by MOI of Republic of Macedonia, SOI Skopje forensic department,

11 Skopje."

12 Can you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then he says: "Regarding the fact that during the

15 investigative procedure death of the accused person Atulla Qaili was

16 confirmed, it was decided as in the purview of the decision in accordance

17 to the hereinabove stated and pursuant to Article 135 from ZKP" -- that's

18 that criminal procedure code.

19 Can you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And decision dismissing an investigation against Mr. Qaili was

22 handed down on the 21st of August, 2001. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Sir, is that correct that during the crisis period in Macedonia

25 some Albanian citizens boycotted public services, including by refraining

1 from asking for death certificates for their lost relatives. Are you

2 aware of that?

3 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

4 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P149.

5 It's N005-0547-ET. And it has the same ERN number for the Macedonian

6 version and it is it under tab 19 of your binder.

7 Q. If you look at the top left-hand corner, it's a document that

8 comes from the Ministry of Internal Affairs, sector for internal affairs,

9 Skopje, department for internal affairs, OOR Cair, and it's being -- it's

10 noted motor vehicle inspector submitted by Robertino Acevski, and it names

11 the source, and it is dated 15 August 2001, and it is in the operational

12 information numbered 540.

13 Can you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The subject of this operational information is: Information

16 acquired on civil boycott by the citizen of Albanian nationality on the

17 territory of the department for internal affair, Cair.

18 Can you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the document notes the following: "On 14 August 2001 at

21 around 18 hours at the premises of the department for internal affairs,

22 OOR Cair, a conversation was carried out with Dr. Nada Pesik from the home

23 call service in Cair who informed me that during 2001 they have noticed

24 that citizens of Albanian nationality do not ask the service to issue them

25 certificate -- death certificates for deceased persons. That is, they do

1 not report the deceased, and although they are buried they are still

2 registered with us as alive."

3 Can you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then it says: "Namely, since the armed activities started in

6 Tanusevsci until now, citizens of Albanian nationality do not report at

7 all deceased persons, unlike in the period for the past years when there

8 were daily reports by Albanian citizens. According to the doctor's

9 opinion, they buried the deceased at the village cemeteries without the

10 necessary documentation for burial."

11 Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sir, if I may show you now a document that has been admitted

14 earlier as P288. It is under tab 12 of your binder.

15 You recall being showed [sic] that document by my colleague?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It is a death certificate for the person, Atulla Qaili. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it also correct that you issued that document on the 23 of

21 February of 2004?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And is that correct that's when the family or the relatives of

24 Mr. Qaili asked you for such a certificate?

25 A. Yes. Whenever they requested it, then they received it.

1 Q. And as far as you can tell, and as far as you know, there had been

2 no such request from the relatives of Mr. Qaili prior to that time?

3 A. No. There was no prior request.

4 Q. And you've pointed out to my colleague that in this same document

5 the death of Mr. Qaili is registered as being violent. Do you recall?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that correct that those findings that you make in these

8 documents are not binding on the investigative judge or on the prosecutor.

9 They can make their own assessment about that matter. Is that correct?

10 A. This is a document issued to the family so that they are able to

11 complete the necessary formalities to deregister the deceased.

12 Q. More generally perhaps, then, when you make findings as to the

13 nature or the cause of a death and that's -- the document is then

14 forwarded on to the investigative judge, is that correct that your own

15 findings are not binding in any way on the investigative judge?

16 A. The decision of the investigating judge is their own, whether they

17 will initiate an investigation or not.

18 Q. Thank you. I have also asked you a few questions earlier about

19 fingerprints and papillary line, and you've indicated, I believe, that the

20 test was not carried out by you, and you indicated also your understanding

21 that this exercise had occurred at the Butel morgue. Can you recall?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Rule 65 ter 226.

24 That is N000-1242-ET.

25 Q. That would be N000-1242 in the Macedonian, and that is under tab

1 21 of your binder, sir.

2 If can you look at the top again, top left corner of that

3 document. It says that it comes from the Republic of Macedonia, Ministry

4 of Interior, forensic investigation administration. Can you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and on the top right-hand

7 corner there is a number, 19.5.1. Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And it says: Record of the evidence and object found at the

10 site." And it says: "On 17 August 2001," the time is not mentioned. It

11 says in: Butel chapel -- "At Butel chapel an on-site investigation was

12 carried out into the crime of unidentified male body. The following took

13 part in an on-site investigation team."

14 And then there's a first name, Nikolov, with actual and illegible

15 last name. And it refers to fingerprint of the right index finger.

16 Can you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that, sir, is, again, consistent with what you've said earlier

19 about the fingerprint test and papillary line. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then if I could --

22 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I will tender this document.

23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D68, Your Honours.

25 MR. METTRAUX: If this witness may be shown Rule 65 ter -- it's

1 Prosecution Rule 65 ter 110 with an ERN N000-1253-ET. The Macedonian

2 version would be N001-1253.

3 Q. And, Doctor, it is under tab 22 of your binder.

4 If I may ask you to look at the top left-hand corner. It says:

5 "Republic of Macedonia, Ministry of Internal Affairs, sector for internal

6 affairs of the city of Skopje, criminal technique department."

7 And, again, it has this number, 19.5.1, 1651, and it is submitted

8 by Zlatko Dosevski on the 20th of August, 2001. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And it is it submitted to the SVR, sector for internal affair,

11 OKT, criminal techniques department. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it is an Official Note numbered 357 [sic] about the

14 identification of NN - that's unknown person - deceased person. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, the transcript has recorded me, or I

18 have misspoke, and has number 357. It should have been Official Note

19 number 351.

20 Q. Drawing your attention to the first paragraph, Doctor, where it

21 says: "On 17 August 2001 by the inspection team of SVR Skopje, criminal

22 techniques department, fingerprints are taken of papillary lines of NN

23 deceased persons in the chapel, Butel, Skopje, with the aim to determine

24 the identity of the same."

25 Would you agree that it is consistent with the previous document

1 that I have shown you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then the next paragraph says: "On the same day, the search

4 inspectorate at SVR Skopje brought in a file card for issuing a personal

5 identification card in the name of Qaili Atulla, from father Avdi, mother

6 Hava, born 3rd November 1965 in the village Ljuboten," then there's a

7 number, "in order to compare the fingerprint left on the file card for

8 issuing a personal identification card with a fingerprint taken from the

9 unknown person."

10 Can you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Then it concludes: "After conducting a comparison, it was

13 concluded that the fingerprints of the papillary lines are identical."

14 Can you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we'd wish to tender this document as

17 well.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D69 Your Honours.

20 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown -- it's again a

21 Prosecution Rule 65 ter document, 108. It is ERN N000-1246-DT.

22 Q. Sir, it is under tab 23 of your binder.

23 MR. METTRAUX: And for the registry, the ERN in Macedonian is

24 N000-1246.

25 Q. As you can see from the top left-hand corner, it's again a

1 document from the Basic Court Skopje II, Skopje, from the investigation

2 department with the same number, 436-01. It is dated 22nd of August and

3 it is send to the KPU prison Skopje, Skopje. Can you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And it has a header saying: Subject, information, connection KI

6 number 436-01 dated 14 August 2001.

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then if I may draw your attention to the second paragraph in

10 that document, it records the following: "Because of existing of

11 suspicion that the person Qaili Atulla, father's name Avdi, mother's Hava,

12 born on 5 November 1965 in Skopje, last address Ljuboten village, citizen

13 of Republic of Macedonia, has died, identification of a body was

14 conducted ..."

15 Can you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then it says in the next paragraph: "The crime techniques

18 department of the Skopje city sector of the Ministry of Interior, within

19 MVR has confirmed that the unidentified dead person is actually Qaili

20 Atulla."

21 Then it cites the father's name, the mother's name, and the ID

22 number. Could you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And it says that the conclusion was confirmed with comparing the

25 fingerprints of the dead body with the fingerprints taken from issuing an

1 identification card.

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And it is, again, signed by Mr. Pancevski, Judge Pancevski. Is

5 that correct, sir, it is signed by Mr. Pancevski?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. METTRAUX: [Previous translation continues] ... realised that

8 the translation I have in my hand mentions the date of birth of Mr. Qaili

9 as being once 5 of November and 3rd of November, which seems to be a

10 problem in the original as well.

11 And we would wish to tender this document as well.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D70, Your Honours.

14 MR. METTRAUX:

15 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you a few more questions now related to a

16 different subject which relate to the period of time of August of 2001.

17 Is that correct that on the 12 of August of 2001 you received

18 information that a number of individuals had been killed in the village of

19 Ljuboten?

20 A. In that day, I was on duty, and by the investigating judge, Ognen

21 Stavrev, I was informed that several persons had died and that I might be

22 called to go on site to make an on-site investigation.

23 Q. Is that correct that the team which was formed on that occasion

24 included not only yourself and Judge Stavrev but also Deputy Prosecutor

25 Milan Galevski?

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And it also included a number of technicians from the crime

3 technique police, as it is known?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. And those crime technicians, sir, they are employees of the

6 Ministry of Interior. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that correct also that such an on-site visit is -- or the team

9 which takes part in such an on-site visit is being lead and is under the

10 authority of the investigative judge?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And is that correct that all information collected in the

13 connection of such an on-site investigation is sent to him and no other

14 member of the team. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes. All the information collected by the investigating team are

16 submitted to the investigation judge and no nobody else.

17 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown what is

18 Prosecution Rule 65 ter 103 with an ERN N000-7352-ET-09. And the

19 Macedonian version is N000-7352, and it is at tab 26 of your binder.

20 Q. Doctor, I will come back on the specifics of your activities

21 during that day and the following days as far as they concern Ljuboten.

22 But do you recognise this document as the report which you prepared after

23 your taking part in the attempted on-site investigation in Ljuboten?

24 A. Yes. This is the report that I prepared for the public prosecutor

25 Stavre Dzikov upon the request of my director.

1 Q. That was my next question again. Is that correct from the

2 indication that is on the top of this document that it was sent to the

3 public prosecutor Mr. Dzikov, and that you had made a request to that

4 effect. You have now indicated that Professor Duma had made the same

5 request. Is that how it should be understood: Both of them had requested

6 you to do that?

7 A. Professor Duma conveyed to me that I'm supposed to submit a

8 written information to Stavre Dzikov related to the event when I was on

9 duty in the following days as well.

10 Q. Thank you. I'll now ask you to look at the first sentence of that

11 document. I will read it out to you in the English. It says that: "On

12 12 August 2001 at 18 hours we were informed by the investigative judge

13 Ognen Stavrev from the Basic Court Skopje I that we should go on a site

14 investigation in Ljuboten Village where were situated five dead bodies of

15 Albanian terrorists."

16 I'll just stop there for a minute. Is that correct that at the

17 time when you received the information from Judge Stavrev, he had

18 indicated to you that the five dead bodies were in fact the bodies of

19 terrorists?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then you report goes on to say this: "That's why the whole

22 team that was on duty in the Forensic Institute and criminology were

23 called to come to the their places of duty."

24 Is that how it happened?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And then it says: "At 1930 we were informed by the crime

2 technique of Ministry of Interior that were on the spot that the military

3 activities are still going on. There is -- so it was not safe to go and

4 perform the site investigation."

5 Is that information which you received at the time?

6 A. Yes. The investigating judge called me again at 1930 and told me

7 that we couldn't go on the site because it was unsafe.

8 Q. So am I correct to understand that both the crime technique of the

9 MOI and Judge Stavrev called you later that day, to give you that

10 information, that it was unsafe to go?

11 A. No. Only the investigating judge, Ognen Stavrev, and he had

12 gotten the information from the crime techniques.

13 Q. And when Judge Stavrev referred to Albanian terrorists, did he

14 refer in fact to members of the National Liberation Army. Is that your

15 understanding?

16 A. Yes. This is what he thought and this is what I understood.

17 Q. And did you inform Professor Duma on that day about your

18 conversation with Judge Stavrev?

19 A. Yes. At the very moment when the -- when I had the first phone

20 call at 6.00 p.m., this is the moment when I informed Professor Duma.

21 Q. Is that correct that you were called again by Judge Stavrev two or

22 three days later?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you recall now whether it was two or three days after the

25 first phone call from Judge Stavrev, or is it too far away now to recall?

1 A. Well, it was two to three days later. But since I have the

2 document before me I believe this is true, what is written there, because

3 the memory was very fresh at the time.

4 Q. Well, I'll show you number of documents later which may help you

5 in that regard. But I would like to focus at this stage on the second

6 paragraph in this document where you said this: "Three days later on

7 15 August 2001, at 1430, we were informed by the investigative judge,

8 Ognen Stavrev, from the Basic Court Skopje I that site investigation will

9 take place in Ljuboten village regarding the dead bodies of Albanian

10 terrorists that were found there, because the situation on the terrain has

11 calmed down."

12 Is that correct? Is that what Judge Stavrev told you at the time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It goes on to say this: "From the Forensic Institute and

15 criminology, the duty doctor headed towards the police station in Butel

16 where the following persons were present: The investigative judge from

17 the Basic Court Skopje I, Ognen Stavrev; the deputy public prosecutor,

18 Milan Galevski and the team of the Ministry of Interior, NVR, crime

19 technique sector.

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. And then you recorded a meeting. During the meeting with the head

23 of the police station Bute, we were informed that in the village there are

24 still terrorist groups who are not allowing site investigation to take

25 place and are not handing over the dead bodies of the terrorists for

1 identification and autopsy."

2 Is that what you were told at the time by the head of the police

3 station Butel?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall what the name of that person was or is?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Were you also told that there might still be NLA members in the

8 village at the time?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And did the head of the police station also warn you that you

11 could be kidnapped or fired upon if you tried to enter the village?

12 A. Yes. And he offered us, in case we decided to go, a transporter,

13 helmets, and flakjackets.

14 Q. And you also underline the fact that he could not guarantee your

15 safety; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. And this is the reason why the investigating judge and the

17 public prosecutor decided for us not to go there.

18 Q. And the decision whether to go or not to go was the decision of

19 the investigative judge and the investigative judge only; is that

20 correct? He was the one to decide where you should or shouldn't go in the

21 village.

22 A. Him and the deputy public prosecutor Milan Galevski, they both

23 said that in such circumstances when the security is not guaranteed of the

24 investigating team, then we should not go to the site.

25 Q. So upon that decision having been made is that correct that the

1 entire team returned to Skopje?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And a few hours you were called again by Judge Stavrev about the

4 same matter. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I'd like to ask you again to focus on your report, the next

7 paragraph and I'll read it out to you.

8 "The same day, a few hours later, between 1630 and 1700 hours we

9 were called again by the investigative judge, Ognen Stavrev, from the

10 Basic Court Skopje I to go on site investigation in Ljuboten village

11 because he had received information that the situation on the terrain is

12 safe and it is possible to conduct site investigation."

13 Do you recall receiving that information?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is that correct that upon receiving that information the same

16 group of people, Judge Stavrev, deputy public prosecutor Galevski,

17 yourself and a member of the crime technique all went back to Cair or

18 Butel police station?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And is that correct that upon your arrival you were told once

21 again by the head of the Butel police station that it wouldn't be safe for

22 you and your team to go into the village?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And sometime later you were also received some information from

25 the head of the police station Butel that the bodies had been buried. Is

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So, once again, the judge ordered the entire team to go back to

4 Skopje. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we'd like to tendered this document.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D71, Your Honours.

9 MR. METTRAUX:

10 Q. Sir, once you had prepared this report, did you discuss it at all

11 with Professor Duma?

12 A. No. I just gave it to Professor Duma which was then archived and

13 the -- then it was sent to the addressee.

14 Q. So a copy was sent by yourself or by Professor Duma to the Public

15 Prosecutor?

16 A. It goes through our secretary, as it usually does.

17 Q. And you didn't send a copy to the police. Is that correct?

18 A. I think not. It was requested by Stavre Dzikov not by the police.

19 MR. METTRAUX: If the witness may be shown Exhibit P99. It's

20 N000-0162 in the English. It is under tab 27, and the Macedonian version

21 is N000-0599.

22 Q. If can you look at the top left-hand corner doctor. It says:

23 "Republic of Macedonia, Public Prosecution Office of the Republic of

24 Macedonia," then it has a number 231-01. It's dated 18 November 2001.

25 Can you see that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the title of that document is information on the events

3 happened in the area of the village Ljuboten, Skopje, in the period August

4 10, 11, 12 and the 14th, 2001. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I'll ask the registry to go on to the third page of that

7 document. That's N000-164. In doctor that is also the third page in the

8 Macedonian version. And is that correct that this document is being

9 signed by the public prosecutor of the Republic of Macedonia

10 Stavre Dzikov?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And if you turn to the next page of that document, that would be

13 N00 -- yes, thank you.

14 And sir, do you recognise your report which I've just read out to

15 you with a slightly different translation into the English. But in the

16 Macedonian, is that the same document that I have just shown to you?

17 A. Yes, this is the document that I wrote.

18 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, would that be a convenient time?

19 JUDGE PARKER: It would.

20 I'm afraid, Doctor, the day has come to an end again, so we must

21 adjourn and continue tomorrow at 2.15.

22 I remind counsel that we will have two sessions only tomorrow

23 afternoon, finishing by 6.00 p.m. with one break.

24 We now adjourn until 2.15

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

2 June, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25