Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2446

1 Thursday, 21 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.

7 And good morning to you, sir. We trust are you feeling a little

8 better. Sorry that you've had to.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... As we've dealt

11 with other people in between.

12 I would remind you, as it's a while ago, that the affirmation you

13 made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux, you were in the course of your

17 questioning.

18 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux: [Continued]

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Memedi. I hope you are feeling better and if

21 you need a break at any stage, don't hesitate to ask me or the Court.

22 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, simply an indication to start with, we

23 discussed yesterday with our colleagues from the Prosecution in relation

24 to the other witness whose evidence was interrupted last week, and we've

25 gotten an indication that the witness would be called back for the

Page 2447

1 remainder of that cross-examination. With that in mind, we have tried to

2 shorten the end of the cross-examination of this witness to the extent

3 that they are overlapping in part.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.


6 Q. Sir, you will recall that when we left off last week I had showed

7 you an indictment which had been signed by the public prosecutor Vlado

8 Georgievski and we charged with you the crime of terrorism. Do you

9 recall?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'd like to show you another document this morning. It is P50

12 with an ERN ET-N002-0230-1. And the Macedonian version of that document

13 is N002-0084-147.

14 Sir, if I may ask you to look at the top of that document once it

15 an appears in front of you. You will see that it comes from the criminal

16 court of the Lower Court, Skopje II, Skopje. Can you see that? It's the

17 top left-hand corner.

18 A. It's not very legible.

19 Q. Well, the first line should read: "The criminal court of the

20 Lower Court, Skopje II, Skopje comprised of deputy president of the court,

21 Verica Simovska, as presiding judge, and then it lists a number of judges.

22 Can you see that?

23 A. Yes, I can see some sentences more or less.

24 Q. With the assistance of the usher, perhaps I will give Mr. Memedi a

25 paper copy, which may assist.

Page 2448

1 And then in the same paragraph, sir, it refers to a number of

2 accused person, and your name appears. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then at the end of the paragraph there's the date of the

5 document, the 11 September and it says that it is a ruling, is that

6 correct, or a decision?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... You to look at the next

9 paragraph. It says what the rule something all about. It say it is --

10 custody is extended for the accused and then there's a number of accused

11 person, and your name appear in that list. Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then it refers to a ruling of the investigative judge of the

14 Lower Court Skopje II, Skopje with a number 438-01 of 14 August 2001 and a

15 ruling with a number 439-01 of 14 August 2001. There's a ruling of a

16 juvenile judge, and the decision is one of extension of detention for 30

17 days from 11 September 2001 to 11 October 2001. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then underneath that paragraph, sir, there is what is

20 translated in English as "statement of reasons." Can you see this?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If I may ask the registry to turn to the second page of this

23 document, both in the English and Macedonian version.

24 Sir, I'll draw your attention to the second paragraph in the

25 English with starts with the word, "Upon receipt of the indictment from

Page 2449

1 OJO Skopje, KO number 2801-01 of 7 September 2001, the Trial Chamber of

2 the court, ruling in accordance with its official responsibility, on the

3 basis of Article 257, paragraph 2, examined whether or not the legal

4 grounds still existed by which custody measures are set against the

5 accused as considered in Article 184, paragraph 1, items 1 and 3 of the

6 ZKPD, criminal procedure code."

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then the court said this: "In this particular instance there

10 still exists legal grounds to extend custody against the accused provided

11 for in Article 184, paragraph 2, items 1, 2, and 3, of the ZKP. This view

12 of the Trial Chamber is reached on the basis of circumstances relating to

13 the character of all the accused, who are young people, some with

14 established families, and some without established families. The majority

15 of the accused have no prior convictions and also the circumstances

16 related to the crime for which there exists reasonable grounds for

17 suspicion that the accused committed it, the severity, the manner of

18 execution and the sentence envisaged for this criminal activity, the Trial

19 Chamber finds that there is reasonable grounds for belief that there is a

20 risk that were the accused released pending trial, they would flee in

21 order to avoid criminal responsibility, or they would repeat the criminal

22 activity."

23 Can you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in the next paragraph the Court said that on account of the

Page 2450

1 above, the custody of all accused would be extended. Is that correct?

2 A. It's a prolonged detention.

3 Q. Yes. Is that correct that the next paragraph -- the last

4 paragraph in that document decides in effect to prolong your custody by 30

5 days?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then it says -- there is a signature by the deputy head of the

8 court, is that correct, someone called Verica Simovska?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then there's a note under the signature which suggests that an

11 appeal against this ruling is allowed within three days after submission

12 through this court directed to the appeals court in Skopje. Is that

13 correct, that there is such a note in the document?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is that correct also that you didn't use that opportunity to

16 appeal against this decision?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And this decision of the court was sent both to you and your

19 lawyer, as is apparent from the list of persons to whom the decision was

20 forwarded. Is that correct?

21 A. I didn't have any lawyer.

22 Q. Weren't you represented by Niman Nimani at that time, sir?

23 A. I didn't see any lawyer coming to my -- to prison.

24 Q. Wasn't your first lawyer Mr. Tadir Fidovski and then Mr. Nimani?

25 A. I don't recall this. But there was no lawyer coming to prison and

Page 2451

1 to tell me that I'm your lawyer.

2 Q. Is it correct, sir, also that there were three other decisions

3 from that Court from the Trial Chamber of Skopje -- lower Skopje Court II

4 in 9 October 2001, 9 November 2001, and 10 December 2001 where they

5 prolonged your custody. Is that correct?

6 A. I don't understand the question. Could you repeat it, please.

7 Q. Yes. Is that correct, sir, there were three other similar

8 decision, three other similar rulings by the court to the effect that they

9 prolonged your detention every time by a period of 30 days?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I won't go through those decisions

12 because they are an available to Their Honours in the binder provided by

13 the Prosecution. I will simply for the record read the ERN so that you

14 may retrieve those decisions.

15 The decision of 9 of October 2001 is P50, that's 5-0, with an ERN

16 N002-0283-1. The decision of the 9 of November 2001 is again P50 with an

17 ERN N002-0296-1. And the decision of the 10th of December 2001 is P50

18 with an ERN N002-0307-1.

19 Q. Is that correct, sir, that on all four occasions, on all four

20 decisions there was the possibility given to you to appeal against the

21 decision of detention?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And on none of those occasions did you appeal the decision.

24 Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2452

1 Q. Sir, I'd like to show you another document which is P50, with an

2 ERN ET-N002-0285-1.

3 Sir, if I may draw your attention to the top of that document when

4 you receive it in the Macedonian. I have the ERN, I apologise. It is

5 N002-0084-202.

6 Sir, is this copy more legible in Macedonian or would you like a

7 paper copy as well?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you read it?

10 MR. METTRAUX: With the assistance of the usher, we'll perhaps

11 provide the more readable paper version. Thank you.

12 Q. Sir, do you recall that -- do you recall that on 24, 25th and 26th

13 of October of 2001 there was a hearing in relation to your case where your

14 lawyers challenged the jurisdiction of the court. Do you recall that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. We will go through the document together then. If you can look at

17 the top of that document, it's again coming from the Trial Chamber of the

18 Lower Court, Skopje II, Skopje and it's again a ruling or a decision,

19 depending on the translation. Can you see that? It's the first

20 paragraph, sir. The very top of the first page and then there's a

21 subheading saying ruling or decision, depending on the translation.

22 A. Mm-hm.

23 Q. And if can you still focus on the first paragraph it says in the

24 middle of it that's it a ruling on the objection submitted for the accused

25 by the defence counsels and then there's the name of the counsels. Can

Page 2453

1 you see that?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. And then it says -- there's another section, it says ruling and it

4 says there is an objection submitted by the accused and it is the name and

5 there's your name as well. Can you see it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And this paragraph also says that the objection has been rejected

8 as unfounded. Can you see that? That's the last few words of this

9 paragraph.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Then underneath there is a statement of reasons and if I may ask

12 the registry to turn to the next page both in the Macedonian and the

13 English.

14 In my translation, that may be one page further away.

15 Yes, thank you.

16 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we're working on two different

17 translation, but it seems that the content is the same.

18 Q. Sir, I would just like to draw your attention to a paragraph that

19 starts either with the word "on 24 September 2001" or with the word "the

20 accused Ali Isni and Ljatif Aliovski." Can you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if you go through that paragraph you will see that on 25th of

23 October 2001 the lawyer of these two accused raised an issue concerning

24 the paraffin glove tests which had been carried out on their clients -- on

25 his clients, rather. Can you see that?

Page 2454

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in particular the lawyer in question raised the possibility

3 that the nitrate which had been found on the hands of one of the accused,

4 Mr. Isni Ali, could be the result of a piece of shell which he said he

5 touched or the result of agriculture products which were available at the

6 time. Can you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Then if I may ask to you go to the next page and that would be

9 starting on the bottom of this page in the English but then moving on to

10 the next page, please. There's a paragraph starting with the words "the

11 accused Murtezan Murtezani, Sulejman Zendelovski" and so on. Can you find

12 that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the middle paragraph there is a passage which in my translation

15 reads as follows: "Only the accused Farush Memedi exercised his right to

16 remain silent and they were interrogated for the crime of terrorism

17 pursuant to Rule 313 of the KZ, criminal code, to which the accused give

18 clear and unambiguous testimony in which they completed denied the

19 accusation."

20 Can you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then if we jump over one sentence there's another one says this --

23 that should be still be at page two of the Macedonian version, I believe.

24 It is stated that, "In preparing the indictment the OGO Skopje has made

25 additional error and formal mistakes, especially in the case of the

Page 2455

1 accused Farush Memedi, who exercised his right to remain silent and the

2 OJO Skopje accused him without consent of the investigating judge."

3 Can you see that part?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The decision goes on to say: "The statement of the president of

6 the Republic of Macedonia as well as the opinion of the government in

7 connection with amnesty had also been placed before the Trial Chamber. It

8 is stated as well that in the sense of Article 124, paragraph 1 and 2" --

9 MR. METTRAUX: I believe that would be the next page notice

10 English, Your Honour, I apologise.

11 Q. "It is stated as well that in the sense of Article 124, paragraph 1

12 and 2 of the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia in the Republic of

13 Macedonia, there was no declared state of war and the question is posed

14 with whom an armed attack was taking place and in what enemy army the

15 accused served. Finally, the question is posed on what sort of evidence

16 is the indictment grounded, in view of the fact that the main proof is the

17 paraffin glove tests which were taken on the accused who were in

18 contaminated terrain where nitrate particles were present. It is proposed

19 that the objection be sustained and the criminal proceeding stopped."

20 Can you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... To the next page, please.

23 Sir, do you recall your lawyer making those objections for you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. If we can now look at the paragraph which should start: "The

Page 2456

1 Trial Chamber, after review." In the other translation which you have on

2 your screen that's the paragraph started "after the insight into the

3 file."

4 Do you see the last part of the sentence which referred to oral

5 statements which have also been put forward verbally by the representative

6 of the accused at the session held on 24, 25, and 26 October 2001.

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then the Trial Chamber affirms that the objection is

10 ungrounded and as such will be rejected.

11 Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then the court said this in particular: "In the particular

14 instance of the objection the facts is contested that the accused carried

15 out the crime attributed to them since the accusation is based on

16 insufficiently confirmed facts and evidence and is based exclusively on

17 the paraffin glove tests of the accused during which nitrate particles

18 were found without any other evidence found against the accused."

19 Can you see that part?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Explain this: "In this phase

22 of the proceedings when the Trial Chamber is ruling on the objection to

23 the indictment solely on the basis of the minutes obtained in the previous

24 proceedings in accordance with Article 267 of the criminal procedure code,

25 it cannot influence in advance the resolution of those questions which

Page 2457

1 will be the subject of a hearing in the trial. In this sense the disputed

2 matters fall within the jurisdiction of the Chamber, which will decide at

3 the hearing where in the contradictory firsthand and verbal proceedings

4 acquired on the basic principles of the criminal proceedings the fact and

5 material truth can be directly confirmed." And then there's a signature

6 again of the same deputy head of the court Verica Simovska.

7 Can you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And then there's an indication that no appeal of this ruling is

10 permitted and again the decision was forwarded to all of the accuseds and

11 to their counsel. Is that correct?

12 A. I don't know what you are referring to. I don't understand your

13 question.

14 Q. I'm simply asking you, sir, is that correct that the document was

15 signed by the deputy head of the court, a person named Verica Simovksa and

16 that there's an indication in this decision that there can be no appeal

17 from the decision. Is that correct?

18 A. This, I don't remember.

19 Q. And is that also correct that at the end of the document, sir,

20 there is a list of persons and one institution to whom this decision was

21 forwarded.

22 Can you see that list?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can you see your name on it as well?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2458

1 Q. And the name of a defence counsel called Tadir Fidovski?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, simply to apologise perhaps for the

5 problems with the translation, but there appears to be several translation

6 of the same document in several exhibits of the Prosecution and sometime

7 no translation. We didn't realise before this moment that a different

8 translation of the document would be shown on the screen.

9 Q. Sir, is that correct that you were never acquitted of these crimes

10 with which you were charged but that you were eventually pardoned by the

11 president of the Republic of Macedonia?

12 A. We were not guilty of anything.

13 Q. But is that correct, sir, that you were never acquitted formally

14 by the court but that were pardoned by the president?

15 A. We were pardoned by the president.

16 Q. And did that occur in the month of December 2001?

17 A. It happened on the 14th of December, 2001, when I was pardoned.

18 Q. And is that correct, sir, that in the decision of pardon the

19 president stated that you had been a member of a terrorist organisation,

20 the NLA. Is that correct?

21 A. No.

22 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown what is P50 with

23 an ERN ET-N002-0332-1, and the Macedonian version is again P50

24 N002-0084-249.

25 Q. Sir, if I can ask to you look at the top of that document. It

Page 2459

1 starts with the words --

2 MR. METTRAUX: If the registry could perhaps just move up the

3 English a bit. Thank you.

4 Q. It starts with the words "an excerpt," and underneath, it says "On

5 the decision of pardoning individuals, members of the so-called ONA or LNA

6 deprived by liberty for acquittal of criminal prosecution."

7 Can you see that?

8 Sorry, sir, I'm not sure you have heard me. Can you see the top

9 of that document where it says, "On the decision of pardoning individuals,

10 members of the so-called ONA, deprived by liberty for acquittal of

11 criminal prosecution.

12 Can you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And would you agree that it is signed by the president of the

15 Republic of Macedonia, Boris Trajkovski?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And in the first paragraph of that document it refers to an

18 amnesty law and then it says that the president of the Republic of

19 Macedonia on this case 18 December 2001 handed down a decision. Is that

20 what it says?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the decision says that it relates to the pardoning of

23 individuals, members of the so-called ONS, this time, LNA deprived from

24 liberty on their acquittal of criminal prosecution, and then it refers to

25 one of your neighbours or villagers from Ljuboten, Mr. Ali Isni, saying

Page 2460

1 that he's been discharged of criminal prosecution on the case of the Basic

2 Court Skopje number 983-01. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is that correct, sir, that you received a similar decision of

5 amnesty signed by the president at the time?

6 A. A similar decision was issued but here it says Ali Xhavit Isni.

7 Q. Yes, but you received a similar decision in terms of content with

8 your name on it. Is that correct?

9 A. With my name.

10 Q. That's correct. I'm very grateful. I'm grateful for your

11 patient, Mr. Memedi.

12 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I'm finished with the

13 cross-examination.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Mettraux.

15 Mr. Apostolski.

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

18 Q. Good morning, witness, Farush Memedi. My name is Antonio

19 Apostolski and together with my colleague Jasmina Zivkovic I appear for

20 Mr. Johan Tarculovski.

21 Today I will ask you several questions related to the events in

22 Ljuboten in the period between the 10th and the 12th of August, 2001.

23 You stated that you lived in Ljuboten. You have completed

24 secondary education in 1984. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2461

1 Q. In 1996, you served the conscription service in Stip. Is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell me which was your military branch where you served?

5 A. Artillery, 120-millimetre mortar unit.

6 Q. Is it correct that you were trained in using infantry weapons?

7 A. What are you referring to?

8 Q. Is it correct that while you were serving in the army, you had

9 received training in using infantry weapons.

10 A. You mean small weapons, light weapons?

11 Q. Yes, I'm referring to light infantry weapons.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You are a member of the political party Democratic Union for

14 Integration. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The abbreviation for the party is DUI, D-U-I. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. President of the party is Ali Ahmeti. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. He is now a MP in the Macedonian Assembly. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. He was elected as a member of the parliament in the parliamentary

23 elections in 2006. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Ali Ahmeti was an MP in the previous convention of the

Page 2462

1 parliament of Macedonia which was elected in 2002. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it correct that in 2001, Mr. Ali Ahmeti was the leader of the

4 terrorist organisation ONA, NLA?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it correct that Gesim Ostreni is a distinguished member of DUI

7 as well?

8 A. You mean if he is a member of the BDI.

9 Q. Is it correct that Gesim Ostreni is a distinguished member of DUI,

10 DUI, of the Democratic Union for Integration?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell me who is the president of the branch of DUI in

13 Ljuboten?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Is it correct that in the village of Ljuboten there are many

16 supporters of DUI?

17 A. This, I don't know either, how many supporters there are.

18 Q. Is it correct that there are more than 100 DUI supporters in

19 Ljuboten?

20 A. Maybe there are, but I don't know.

21 Q. Is it correct that NLA members became members of DUI after the

22 conflict in 2001?

23 A. No, that's not correct. Whoever wanted to become a member, he

24 became one.

25 Q. Is it correct that before that, you were a member of the

Page 2463

1 democratic party of the Albanians?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it correct that the abbreviation for the democratic party of

4 the Albanians is DPA?

5 A. What do you mean by DPA? The Albanian democratic party?

6 Q. Is it correct -- yes, Democratic Party of the Albanians. The

7 abbreviation is DPA in Macedonian, PDSH, S-H, in Albanian?

8 A. Yes, in Albanian it is PDSH.

9 Q. Is it correct that PDSH had members in the parliament of the

10 Republic of Macedonia in 2001?

11 A. I'm not showing that much interest in politics. I really don't

12 understand your questions.

13 Q. Since you told me that you were a member of DUI and before that,

14 you were a member of the PDSH party, my guess is that you are aware of the

15 political developments. This is why I'm asking you. Is it correct that

16 in 2001 PDSH had its members as members of parliament in the Republic of

17 Macedonia in 2001?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it correct that PDSH had ministers in the government of the

20 Macedonia in 2001?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Is it correct that the MPs were elected in free and democratic

23 elections in 1998?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you personally go and vote in the elections?

Page 2464

1 A. You mean in 1998?

2 Q. Yes, I'm referring to 1998, those elections.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. No one forced you to turn out in the elections and vote, and

5 nobody told you whom to vote for. Is that correct?

6 A. That's correct. It's my own right.

7 Q. Right, thank you. On Friday, the 10th of August, 2001, at 8.00 in

8 the morning, you heard shooting coming from the northern ridge above

9 Ljuboten. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You saw shells falling as well as bullets onto the houses. Is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell me how many shells you have seen falling in the

15 village of Ljuboten on Friday, the 10th of August, 2001, at 8.00 in the

16 morning?

17 A. It was 8.00 in the morning when shooting was heard coming from the

18 mountain above. This lasted for a while. Then shelling started and some

19 shells fell in the vicinity of the mosque. Following this, we went into

20 the basement.

21 Q. Can you tell me how many shells fell?

22 A. Well, I'm not an expert in those matters, and I didn't count how

23 many shells fell.

24 Q. On the next day, the 11th of August, you heard only bursts of

25 fire. Is that correct?

Page 2465

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, sporadic fire.

2 A. It was on Saturday.

3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Is it correct that on Saturday, the 11th of August, no shells fell

5 in the village of Ljuboten? There was fire coming only from light

6 infantry weapons?

7 A. Yes, from time to time.

8 Q. So if there would be anyone testifying before this Court that on

9 Saturday, the 11th of August, 2001, shells fell in the village of

10 Ljuboten, that would be incorrect?

11 A. It was raining that day. There was lightening, and I really

12 cannot say whether it was shelling or thunder.

13 Q. On Sunday morning, on the 12th of August, 2001, around 8.00 in the

14 morning, you heard shooting as well as shelling. Is that correct?

15 A. First we -- as we were asleep, there was shooting. We were

16 sleeping in the basement. I woke up and started to wonder what was going

17 on, and then I went to the check-point and I no longer saw what happened

18 in Ljuboten.

19 Q. Is it correct that before 8.00 in the morning there was no

20 shelling against the village of Ljuboten? I'm now referring to Sunday,

21 the 12th of August, 2001.

22 A. In the evening. On Sunday evening, there was no shelling. But on

23 Sunday morning, the shelling began.

24 Q. Is it correct that it started at 8.00 in the morning, the

25 shelling, on the Sunday?

Page 2466

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Around 12.00 you decided to go to Ljuboten following the Ljuboten

3 road. Is that --

4 A. Yes, together with my children.

5 Q. When you were walking down the Ljuboten road, right before the

6 check-point Buzalak 200 metres away, you stopped to get some rest. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Did you know in advance that there was a check-point at that

10 location?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did your knowledge of the check-point being there constitute the

13 reason why you decided to stop there and take some rest?

14 A. No. I was very tired, and that's why I stopped there to rest.

15 And this was far from the check-point. I would say about one kilometre

16 far from the check-point.

17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown,

18 please, his statement, the number 26 -- Prosecutor's Exhibit 266, page 3

19 in the English version, and page 4 in the Macedonian version. Paragraph

20 11.

21 Page 3 in the English version. And Macedonian version, it is page

22 4.

23 Q. In paragraph 11 of your statement that you see now -- do you see

24 the paragraph 11 in Albanian?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2467

1 Q. You state: "Before the Buzalak check-point, I decided to rest a

2 bit with my family."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "I could see lots of people passing me, and after a while, we also

5 continued to walk toward the check-point. Before we arrived to the

6 check-point, a blue police jeep stopped and some policemen came out of the

7 car, ordering us to form a line. At this stage, we were about 200 metres

8 away from the check-point."

9 That is contained in your statement. Is it correct that it was

10 from that spot that the police took you and then they took you to the

11 Butel police station?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Then, from the Butel police station, you were taken to the Prolece

14 police station, where you were subjected to paraffin glove tests. Is that

15 correct?

16 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, excuse me.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

18 MS. REGUE: There was a stop in my examination in chief, because I

19 was going through my statement which is in evidence, and I believe that my

20 learned colleague is doing exactly the same, asking him questions which

21 are already in evidence.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I think you're right, Ms. Regue, but I -- I think

23 the point is, Mr. Apostolski, you're putting a number of matters and

24 simply saying is that right, and those matters are simply confirming the

25 evidence that has already been given. It is just unnecessary repetition.

Page 2468

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am aware of this

2 being the case. I know it, but I think that these questions should take

3 me to the question which I think is pertinent for me, so that I would not

4 skip directly from one topic to another. My next question would be --

5 JUDGE PARKER: Well, if you want the Chamber to be lenient to you

6 in this matter, Mr. Apostolski, I'm sure the Defence will be more lenient

7 of the Prosecution in the future. Even-handed.

8 Carry on, Mr. Apostolski.

9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Q. I would deal with one more question only, since my colleague

11 Guenal has cross-examined the witness in detail with regards to the

12 paraffin glove test and also the course of the procedure before the

13 Macedonian Court. You replied to my colleague Guenal that you were not

14 aware that in the procedure before the Basic Court, the Lower Court,

15 Skopje II you were represented by the attorney Niman Nimani.

16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

17 Could the witness be shown page 5, paragraph 23 of the English

18 version of his statement that he has in front of him already. It will be

19 page 7 in the Albanian text. Paragraph 23 where in line 7 of paragraph

20 23. So this would actually be in the following page of the Albanian

21 version, 8th page of the Albanian version. Yes.

22 Could you move the page towards the bottom.

23 Q. You state that, "I think there was an Albanian lawyer who was

24 supposed to represent us. As far as I remember, his name was Niman Nimani

25 and he is a well-known lawyer in Macedonia."

Page 2469

1 Is it correct that Mr. Niman Nimani has represented you in the

2 procedure before the court?

3 A. There was a man in the court. As far as Niman Nimani is

4 concerned, I don't know him. The man that was there, maybe he was a

5 lawyer or I don't know what.

6 Q. You state that Niman Nimani was a well-known attorney in

7 Macedonia. I think, then, that you must know him for to you say this.

8 A. I don't know this man. If I saw him today I wouldn't know him,

9 but people say that Niman Nimani is well-known, while me personally, I

10 don't know him.

11 Q. I read just your statement, so that I don't have anymore

12 questions.

13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any

14 more questions for this particular witness. Thank you.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.

16 Ms. Regue

17 Re-examination by Ms. Regue:

18 MS. REGUE: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Memedi.

20 Mr. Memedi, my colleague for the Defence, just asked you whether

21 Ali Ahmeti was a leader of a terrorist organisation, NLA in 2001. And you

22 replied yes, sir. Did you believe in 2001 that NLA was a terrorist

23 organisation?

24 A. No.

25 MS. REGUE: Could we please bring up in e-court Exhibit P00050,

Page 2470

1 pages 45 to 54. And then if we could go to the 5th page in the English

2 version and the 4th in the Macedonian.

3 The next page, sorry, of both documents.

4 Q. Mr. Memedi, my colleague show you the other week this document.

5 This is it an indictment from the Skopje court. And I'm going to read to

6 you the paragraph which is just in the centre of the document.

7 It says: "On 12 August 2001, between 8 hours and 12 hours in the

8 village of Ljuboten, Skopje area, they," referring to you, "the accused,

9 participated in an armed conflict as combatants against the Republic of

10 Macedonia. In such a way, that during the intensive combating actions

11 against the Armed Forces of the Republic of Macedonia located near the

12 village with infantry fire-arms and ammunition, up until the moment when

13 they were forced to withdraw, disposing of the weapons and the equipment

14 they had while withdrawing and when attempting to leave the village

15 headings for Skopje were met and detained."

16 I'm going to stop there, Mr. Memedi. My question is: In the

17 morning of 12 August 2001 between 8 and 12 hours were you involved in the

18 activities that this document states, meaning you participate in an arm

19 conflict against the forces of the Republic of Macedonia?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Where were you during that time?

22 A. I was at home in the basement of my house, because there were

23 shootings.

24 Q. The last line of this paragraph reads: "You, the accused, had

25 paraffin glove test made and presence of nitrate particles was determined

Page 2471

1 with all accused and demeanour."

2 Mr. Memedi, did you ever hold a weapon between the weekend 10 to

3 12 August 2001?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Then also my learned colleague show you Exhibit P 00050, which was

6 a decision pardoning Ali Isni, and you said that you had received the same

7 document. In that document it said that Isni Ali, and I suppose you, were

8 members of NLA, of the terrorist group. Mr. Memedi, have you ever been a

9 member of a terrorist organisation?

10 A. No.

11 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE PARKER: You'll be pleased to know, Mr. Memedi, that that

15 concludes the questioning for you in those proceedings. We wish to thank

16 you for coming to The Hague and for the assistance you have been able to

17 give, and we're sorry that because of your illness your stay here was

18 longer than expected. You may now, of course, return to your home and

19 your ordinary affairs.

20 Thank you very much.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I also thank you, all the bad I had

22 inside me, I could express it. And I wish you a fruitful work.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. You may now go with the court officer,

24 yes.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 2472

1 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

2 MS. REGUE: Well, the Prosecution is ready to call the next

3 witness.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I think it is it probably going to be more

5 practical to have the break now and then commence with the witness after

6 the break.

7 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour --

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

9 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you. If I may very briefly, there is a number

10 of procedural matters which relate to witness which we indicated yesterday

11 and perhaps with the leave of the Chamber we could do so after the break

12 shortly before the witness comes, if that's possible.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It is not convenient to deal with them now?

14 MR. METTRAUX: I can do so, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Let's try now.

16 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you very much.

17 The matter which we would wish to bring to the attention of the

18 chamber concerns the two statements of Mr. Hutsch, who is going to appear

19 now as a witness. The statements of Mr. Hutsch are filled with references

20 to "sources" and to certain individuals who allegedly gave him information

21 in relation to which he will now be asked to give evidence. The fact that

22 Mr. Hutsch did not identify or name any of those sources or people

23 obviously hampered the Defence ability to seek to verify those stories.

24 As a result of that, we have exchanged a number of letters with

25 the Prosecution with a view to ask the Prosecution to ask Mr. Hutsch to

Page 2473

1 identify these persons. There was a first exchange of letter which

2 related to two person who Mr. Hutsch claims accompanied him during visits

3 to the village of Ljuboten. The Prosecution in turn asked Mr. Hutsch to

4 disclose the names of these alleged people. Mr. Hutsch has continued to

5 do so.

6 There was another exchange of letters in relation to, I believe,

7 25 or so other paragraphs in the statements where Mr. Hutsch refers to

8 alleged sources and alleged individuals, and again the Defence sent

9 letters to the Prosecution asking them to ask Mr. Hutsch to identify those

10 people or those sources, and I believe that but for one and perhaps two of

11 those questions Mr. Hutsch has again refused to disclose the name of these

12 alleged person or alleged sources.

13 In its correspondence the Prosecution has at first indicated that

14 the Prosecution would refuse to disclose this information based on the

15 Rule 70 of the Rules of Procedure. The Prosecution later clarified that

16 it was Mr. Hutsch who had requested Rule 70 procedure.

17 We have also indicated in our letters to the Prosecution that we

18 very serious issues as to the reliability and truthfulness of this

19 witness, and Your Honour will be able to evaluate this matter in

20 cross-examination. The result of this situation is that the Defence has

21 not been able to investigate and verify a large number of matters which

22 this witness will want to testify about.

23 I would also like to bring to Your Honours' attention the fact

24 that the exact same issue arose in the Milosevic case when Mr. Hutsch

25 appeared as a witness for the Defence. And submissions were made at that

Page 2474

1 time by the Prosecution in the following terms. It's the transcript of 12

2 October 2004 at page 32.898, and the person speaking is Mr. Geoffrey

3 Nice. He says this: "My I while addressing you on this point in general

4 terms say only this. I was given notice by Ms. Higgins half an hour ago

5 that the issue might arise but very little, almost no details of how it

6 would arise. If it is going to be suggested that this witness can say 'I

7 was told by X the following but I'm not prepared to reveal who X is,' why,

8 then, we will challenge that evidence as wholly inadmissible because, of

9 course, it would have absolutely no truth value that the Court could

10 attach to it, not knowing who X is and I not being in any sense or way

11 allowed to cross-examine as to X is."

12 The extent of the gaps, if I may call them that, in the evidence,

13 the proposed evidence of this witness has created very serious concern for

14 the Defence and the Defence may also, Your Honour, after having heard the

15 evidence and after cross-examination, seek the exclusion of the entirety

16 of the evidence of Mr. Hutsch, if he indeed declines to reveal these

17 alleged sources and person to whom he says he talked or from whom he says

18 he obtained information. And so that the Trial Chamber is fully briefed

19 in this matter, Your Honour, and with the court's usher's assistant we

20 have prepared what we believe to be the complete collection of letters

21 which we have exchanged with the Prosecution. There's copies for the

22 Court and a copy for the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Can you amplify a little the course of this

24 interesting exchange in the Milosevic case. Did it lead to any decision?

25 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, there were, as you will see

Page 2475

1 during the cross-examination, a number of issues which are also relevant

2 in relation to this case. However, Mr. Nice did not ask the witness to

3 reveal any of those sources which he was concerned about so that the

4 evidence was, in fact, omitted. There were a number of other procedural

5 issues which were raised in the few previous pages of this transcript in

6 relation to communication between Mr. Kay, who had called this witness,

7 and the request of the witness in relation to his sources.

8 Your Honour may find those references, but to answer Your Honour's

9 question, there was no decision specifically relating to whether or not

10 the evidence of Mr. Hutsch could be admitted. There was simply no

11 objection raised at the end of the evidence by the Prosecution.

12 There are two very quick matter which I would like to bring to

13 Your Honours' attention in the sense of a forewarning. There is a number

14 of documents which we had submitted to CLSS, in particular documents in

15 German but also documents in the Macedonian language which related to the

16 witness Mr. Hutsch, and unfortunately, we have not received yet the --

17 some of those translation. Others have been returned to us, CLSS having

18 refused to translate those. So what we had to do in relation to these

19 particular documents, we had to an official translations ourself both from

20 the German language or from the Macedonian language, and those are the

21 document which we will use with this witness and we will resubmit those

22 documents so simply await the official translation of those documents

23 which are still with CLSS.

24 Finally there's an issue concerning still Mr. Hutsch and it

25 relates to a number of documents pertaining to this witness which we have

Page 2476

1 asked to obtain from a particular source. And that source has not yet

2 responded to the request we are -- we understand that the source has

3 identified a number of document which may be relevant and may be important

4 to this particular witness and we understand that they've been working on

5 it in the course of this week.

6 We hope to receive this material before the end of this witness'

7 evidence. And if indeed that is the case we will make all arrangement to

8 translate, to read and review those document so that Mr. Hutsch does not

9 have to be recalled for further evidence, but we simply wish do indicate

10 to Your Honours that if these documents were not received on time and if

11 indeed they were relevant and important, we may have to seek to re-call

12 Mr. Hutsch for further cross-examination.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 Mr. Saxon, is there anything that you would submit?

15 MR. SAXON: The summary of the history of the issue of

16 Mr. Hutsch's willingness to reveal his sources, his journalistic sources

17 is generally accurate, the summary provided by Mr. Mettraux. It may be

18 that - and this is my mistake - it may be that I may have used the term

19 claiming Rule 70 protection perhaps too broadly in one of the letters,

20 because I simply have to clarify that the Prosecution has not received the

21 names of these sources from Mr. Hutsch. So this is not a situation, for

22 example, under Rule 70 B where information is provided to the Prosecution

23 but the source of the information refuses to grant permission for that

24 information to be disseminated further.

25 JUDGE PARKER: I would have thought the Rule deals with

Page 2477

1 information in the hands of the Prosecutor and this, from what we're told,

2 is not. This is information in the hands of a witness.

3 MR. SAXON: Absolutely. And the witness as a professional

4 journalist is refusing to divulge the identities of his sources to anyone,

5 because the witness is concerned about their security. That is the state

6 of --

7 JUDGE PARKER: And yet the Prosecution wants to rely upon that

8 evidence. Is that it?

9 MR. SAXON: On certain hearsay evidence, that would be a correct

10 statement, Your Honour. On certain evidence that came from one of these

11 sources, that would be a correct statement.

12 JUDGE PARKER: So the Prosecution asks the Chamber to except

13 hearsay evidence from a source that is not disclosed.

14 MR. SAXON: That is correct.

15 JUDGE PARKER: And then to rely upon that.

16 MR. SAXON: Correct, Your Honour. That is the Prosecution's

17 position. The Prosecution believes that this should be a matter of weight

18 that should be determined by the Chamber upon receipt of all the evidence

19 not only from this witness but from other witnesses as well, and other

20 sources. And if the Chamber prefers, the Prosecution is also in a

21 position to lead from the witness with respect to the -- Mr. Hutsch's

22 interpreters. Prosecution is prepared to present evidence demonstrating

23 the reliability of the information provided through these interpreters

24 which Mr. Hutsch then produced either in his notebooks or as part of his

25 media articles.

Page 2478

1 JUDGE PARKER: Is there anything further, Mr. Saxon?

2 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

4 MR. METTRAUX: Very briefly, Your Honour, simply to make two

5 points. The first one relates to the suggestion of journalistic sources.

6 We would wish to bring to the attention of the Trial Chamber that this

7 fact will have to be established, whether the sources were in fact used by

8 Mr. Hutsch as a source for any journalistic work, which is the first

9 matter.

10 The second matter, Your Honour, is the proposal just made by my

11 colleague Mr. Saxon in relation to the two interpreter. I would like to

12 bring to the attention of the Chamber that we have actually asked the

13 Prosecution to identify these individuals so that we could indeed talk to

14 them and carry out an investigation in relation to some of the claims that

15 Mr. Hutsch is making, and we received a response from the Prosecution to

16 the effect that they did not have the information as to who those people

17 are. So we are somewhat surprised by the suggestion made today, if that

18 is indeed the suggestion, if I've understood it correctly, that the

19 Prosecution knew -- know or knew who those people are. If that is the

20 case, we would be very grateful to get an indication of their names so

21 that they may be conducted.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 Mr. Saxon.

24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, once again, the Prosecution does not know

25 the identities of these persons. That was not the proposal of the

Page 2479

1 Prosecution a few minutes ago. The Prosecution's proposal was simply to

2 demonstrate through the witness the reliability of his work as a

3 journalist obtaining information through his interpreters. And that can

4 be done, Your Honour, the Prosecution submits, without divulging the

5 identities of these interpreters.

6 If I may say so --

7 JUDGE PARKER: You have lost me completely, Mr. Saxon.

8 MR. SAXON: Well, then let me start again.

9 The witness is able to explain the system that he used to hire

10 interpreters and the system that he used to work with interpreters to make

11 sure that the information that he received while he was an investigative

12 journalist in Macedonia was accurate. That is the point. And the witness

13 can discuss this if that would be of assistance to the Trial Chamber.

14 Secondly and finally, it seems to the Prosecution that there have

15 been a number of cases where interpreters have -- that identities of

16 interpreters have not been identified between the parties for their own

17 security, and if the -- if this was a criteria for the admission of

18 evidence in this Tribunal, then I believe there would have been a great

19 deal of evidence in prior cases that would not have been admitted.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber understands from submissions that no

22 particular order or decision is called for at this point. The Chamber

23 will hear the evidence, including learning from the evidence whether the

24 issues that have been debated are raised, and we will then deal with the

25 consequences if they should arise in due course.

Page 2480

1 Could I just note for the record that while I didn't specifically

2 call upon Mr. Apostolski, I had a clear visual impression that this was an

3 issue between Mr. Mettraux and the Defence of Mr. Boskoski and the

4 Prosecution and you had no wish to participate.

5 Did I judge it right, Mr. Apostolski?

6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of

7 Mr. Tarculovski fully supports the statements by my colleague Mr. Mettraux

8 so that the Defence counsel of Mr. Tarculovski fully supports this stand

9 by my colleague Mettraux.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. The Chamber will adjourn now and resume

11 at five minutes past 11.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

16 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time the Prosecution

17 calls Franz-Josef Hutsch.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Mr. Hutsch, would you please take the

19 card and read aloud the affirmation.

20 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

21 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, please sit down.

24 Due to your physical configuration, you will actually be asked by

25 the man immediately to your right.

Page 2481


2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

3 Examination by Mr. Saxon:

4 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. And, Mr. Hutsch, perhaps before we begin, because we're both going

6 to be speaking in English right now, I'd like to advise to you to please

7 try to speak a little bit slowly and to pause after you hear my questions

8 before you respond in order to give the interpreters a moment to catch up

9 both with my words and your words, all right.

10 First of all, for the record your name is Franz-Josef Hutsch?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. And you are a citizen of Germany?

13 A. Yes, I am.

14 Q. Did you serve in the German army?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. When did you enter the Germany army?

17 A. In October 1982.

18 Q. And can you describe the progression of your career in the German

19 army.

20 A. I first was trained as a reconnaissance Sergeant. After five

21 years, I change career to become an officer. I did the normal officer's

22 training in the German army, which contains technical analysis, technical

23 planning, leadership. After that, I became a platoon leader.

24 Q. When you became a platoon leader what was your rank?

25 A. First lieutenant.

Page 2482

1 Q. Then after that?

2 A. Then after that, I continued my career as a normal army officer.

3 That means I became a member of the staff of a battalion. In that case

4 that was S-2 section. That means intelligence.

5 Q. And then did you have experience, for example, with artillery and

6 the use of artillery?

7 A. Yeah. I was also trained as a forward observer for mortars and

8 artillery.

9 Q. And can you just describe for the Chamber what the position or job

10 of a forward observer is?

11 A. A forward observer has to lead the fire of mortars and artillery

12 to the target, wherever it is.

13 Q. All right. And what was your -- when did you leave the German

14 army?

15 A. I left the army in April 1995 in the rank of a captain.

16 Q. All right. When you left the army, the German army in 1995, did

17 you start another career?

18 A. I became a journalist and by the situation in the Balkans, I

19 became a war journalist.

20 Q. Okay. And what was the first area of the Balkans that you worked

21 in as a journalist?

22 A. I entered Bosnia in May 1995.

23 Q. All right. If I can turn your attention to later in the 1990s,

24 did there come a time when you decided to cover -- when I say cover, I'm

25 speaking as a journalist, report about the events in Kosovo?

Page 2483

1 A. Yes. I started to cover the Kosovo area in 1998.

2 Q. Okay.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, please ask the witness to

4 stop before answering a question.

5 JUDGE PARKER: You're encouraged, Mr. Hutsch, to pause after the

6 question, just for a few moments.


8 JUDGE PARKER: Because the interpreters -- we're running in several

9 languages and they're running in sequence.

10 THE WITNESS: Of course.

11 JUDGE PARKER: And they must catch up to the end of the question

12 before you start the beginning of your answer.

13 THE WITNESS: I will do so, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


16 Q. Did there come a time then in that period, in 1998, when you

17 decided that you needed the use of an interpreter who could translate for

18 you between the Albanian language and the German language?

19 A. I entered in 1998 first Macedonia, where I decided to -- to

20 recruit an Albanian interpreter who speaks German and Albanian.

21 Q. All right. And were different candidates recommended to you?

22 A. Yes. In Germany there were seven candidates recommended by

23 Albanian -- yeah, well-known people to me.

24 Q. Okay. And did you -- did you then interview or speak with the

25 different candidates?

Page 2484

1 A. Yeah, I met all the seven candidates.

2 Q. All right. Let me just -- I want to go slowly through this, all

3 right.

4 So when you met with these candidates, what criteria did you use

5 to evaluate them in terms of whether they would be a competent and

6 appropriate interpreter for you, or not?

7 A. The first was they should possess a driving licence. The second

8 was they should have a good knowledge of German language, and the third

9 was I had a discussion with them to find out if they would give me KLA

10 propaganda, in footsteps, Albanian propaganda or if they would have a

11 neutral point of view on that what would go on in Kosovo.

12 Q. I see. And based on your evaluations of the people who you

13 interviewed, did you reject some of them?

14 A. Yeah. I rejected five of them.

15 Q. And why did you reject those five persons, if you can recall?

16 A. Out of my mind, three of them had been just a less knowledge of

17 German language. And two of them, they speak fluently German, but in my

18 eyes they were -- they did propaganda for the KLA.

19 Q. So they were not objective, in your mind?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you say you rejected five out of the seven persons. So does

22 that mean you decided to hire two of the candidates?

23 A. Yes. Fortunately --

24 Q. Let me -- and the two candidates that you hired, can you describe

25 what their work and education -- work experience was at that time and

Page 2485

1 their education level?

2 A. The education level was that both had a university degree, made in

3 Germany.

4 Q. I don't quite understand. A degree in German or a degree that

5 they had obtained in the country of Germany?

6 A. They obtained in Germany.

7 Q. Okay, all right. And you say that there were two. Both of these

8 persons were going to work for you so that you could communicate with

9 people who spoke Albanian. Is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. All right. And did there also come a time when you realised you

12 needed an interpreter who could assist you in the Macedonian language?

13 A. Yeah. During the upcoming refugee crisis in spring 1999, when

14 some refugee camps with Kosovo Albanian refugees rose up in -- in

15 Macedonia, there was a need to -- yeah, to work together with

16 Macedonian-speaking interpreter.

17 Q. So did you repeat the process that you described before in order

18 to hire a person who could translate for you between Macedonian and

19 German?

20 A. Yes, I did the same way like I did with the Albanian interpreters.

21 Q. And how many interpreters did you hire who would speak the

22 Macedonian language?

23 A. There were also two interpreters that I worked together with.

24 Q. And did both of them speak German?

25 A. No, just one was speaking German: The other one was speaking

Page 2486

1 English.

2 Q. Okay. And again, in this process did you reject any of the

3 applicants or did you hire just the first two people who came to you?

4 A. Yeah. I rejected three up to five. I don't remember exactly,

5 because there were some interviews just very short with these candidates.

6 Q. And the two candidates that you selected, can you recall their

7 educational levels or work experience?

8 A. The first one did a university degree, and the second, a woman,

9 she was working as a nurse.

10 Q. All right. Okay. Can you explain, please -- let's -- now, this

11 was -- this process occurred first in 1998, then in 1999. Obviously the

12 situation in Macedonia became increasingly complicated going into 2001.

13 Did there come a period when you returned to the Macedonia area?

14 A. Yeah, I returned to Macedonia in 1999. I stayed there till

15 October, November.

16 Q. Did you use the same group of interpreters?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And how about after 1999?

19 A. In 2000 I returned several times to Kosovo and Macedonia.

20 Q. Did you use the same interpreters?

21 A. I was using the same interpreters.

22 Q. Okay. And let's remember to try to pause between each of our

23 sentences, all right, for the sake of the interpreters.

24 Did there come a time in 2001 when you returned to Macedonia?

25 A. Yes. In 2001, I returned in -- in January to Macedonia.

Page 2487

1 Q. And when you began to -- and at that time you were working as a

2 journalist?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Were you working for a particular newspaper?

5 A. I was employed by the Hamburg Abendblatt. That is a daily in the

6 north the Germany.

7 Q. All right. And in 2001, did you use the same interpreters that

8 you had hired in 1998 and 1999?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Okay. While you were working in Macedonia during 2001, can you

11 describe, for example, how a typical workday for you, as a journalist,

12 began?

13 A. We started in the morning with a common breakfast.

14 Q. Can I interrupt you, please. When you say "we started," who

15 was "we"? Who was at this common breakfast?

16 A. That depends on the mission that was planned for the day.

17 Sometimes I just need the Macedonian speaking interpreter, sometimes I

18 just need the Albanian speaking interpreter, and sometimes I need both of

19 them.

20 Q. All right. And, now, at this common breakfast, what would be

21 discussed, what would be achieved?

22 A. It was achieved first that we -- that the interpreters presented

23 the -- the results of their -- I will say press view from the day before

24 and what happened in the TV in the night.

25 Q. In other words, if I could interrupt you, was it part of the job

Page 2488

1 of your interpreters to also review what was coming out in the Macedonian

2 media at the time?

3 A. Exactly.

4 Q. And can you continue, please. What would happen at the

5 breakfast?

6 A. We then discussed what was planned, what was the mission for

7 today, what was our aim to find out in that day.

8 Q. Mm-hm. Who you're going to speak to in that --

9 A. Who we are going to speak. Sometimes we --

10 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if we may, perhaps if Mr. Boskoski just

11 could be asked to try to keep his voice down a little bit, because I'm

12 hearing things here across the room.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It is very difficult in a courtroom of this size,

14 but I'm sure Mr. Boskoski will be conscious of the problem.

15 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

16 Q. I'm sorry, could you continue, please. What would occur during

17 the rest of this breakfast, these common breakfasts?

18 A. So we discussed who we are going to speak with, what was the aim

19 of the mission of this day, and, yeah, what was the purpose of what my

20 newspaper would like to know about the conflict.

21 Q. Okay. And when you then -- if you were, for example, to go with

22 your interpreters then -- when you then began the day after breakfast with

23 one or more interpreters, how would the communication be through the

24 interpreters and the person you were speaking with?

25 A. So that depends on the person. Sometimes we had sources who just

Page 2489

1 would like to talk to the -- to the interpreter and there wasn't accept a

2 foreigner in their discussion. So the interpreter has to do the interview

3 with the guidelines we spoke about in the morning. Other -- other

4 persons, they just would like to speak with me, and then the interpreter

5 has to translate that what the other one spoke and that what I was asking.

6 Q. All right. Did you understand at this time in 2001 some words of

7 Macedonian, some words of Albanian?

8 A. I understood a couple of words from both languages, just to -- to

9 say hello and how are you to open on a low level talk and, yeah, that was

10 my knowledge about both languages.

11 Q. All right. And were there times when the interpreters interpreted

12 words that you had already understood?

13 A. I could see with this few words, if they translated in a right way

14 or not, so that low level was the first control. But, on the other hand,

15 I was doing some appointments together with another colleague, for

16 example, and he brought his interpreter with him, so what we did is that

17 we decided who of the interpreters would translate this discussion or this

18 interview and so the other one was all the time a control element for the

19 interpreter of the other one.

20 Q. Okay. So there was a way of checking the accuracy in those

21 conversations?

22 A. Exactly.

23 Q. How about at the end of a typical day. How would your day end

24 after doing this work?

25 A. The normal end was that we sit together with a beer or whatever,

Page 2490

1 and we discussed the day and the results of the day.

2 Q. Can I interrupt you for a moment. Again, just so that the record

3 is clear, you used the pronoun "we." Who do you mean by "we"?

4 A. He was the interpreter I was together with in the day.

5 Q. Mm-hm. Sometimes more than one?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. And what would you do during that discussion at the

8 end of the day?

9 A. We found out what we -- what we did in the day for which incidents

10 we had two sources. That was always a basic rule of us that we just --

11 that we published just things we had two sources for. What we did is also

12 that if there was something unclear to anybody in our team that we

13 discussed this point to make it clear or to evaluate and we say we have to

14 check that the next day or one of the following days.

15 Q. And by -- and if I can stop you there, by checking this point that

16 might not have been clear to everyone, would that entail contacting the

17 source again to clarify?

18 A. Yes. That would be part of this check.

19 Q. Okay. Did you ever check your notes against either notes of

20 interpreters or their memories?

21 A. Yeah. We -- everybody did some notes in our team. And we checked

22 these notes so that it was -- so that we were able to -- to fulfil the

23 notes of the other one.

24 Q. Mm-hm.

25 A. And in a moment where I have just been together with one of the

Page 2491

1 interpreters, and they came aside where we had something like a political

2 analyse, I checked myself with a phone call to the other interpreter if I

3 just had something like propaganda from the other interpreter with the

4 interpreter from the other ethnical group.

5 Q. I see, okay. And why did you feel it was important to do that?

6 A. Because I think that a journalist, especially in a war area, has

7 to be very objective. It's a part of his life insurance. So my

8 experience in 12 years to be a war correspondent is if I'm objective and

9 I'm neutral and I'm not doing propaganda, every side will protect me.

10 Q. All right. Did that policy, if you will, also make it more likely

11 that every side would speak with you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Later on in your testimony we're going to talk about situations

14 where, for example, you and your interpreters had to do things such as

15 move through police check-points or army check-points or NLA

16 check-points. When you were in such situations during the crisis time of

17 2001, would it -- were you able to observe whether the policemen, NLA

18 members, and your interpreters appeared to understand each other?

19 A. Sorry, can you repeat that?

20 Q. Were you able to understand, in these situations, were you able to

21 observe whether a person who was speaking either Albanian to your

22 interpreter or Macedonian to your other interpreter, whether their

23 conversation was being understood or not?

24 A. Yeah. Most likely in the result, that means when there was a

25 conversation between, for example, policemen and my Macedonian

Page 2492

1 interpreter, then -- and we could pass in the result, then it was a

2 successful conversation they have had.

3 Q. All right. Did, for example, persons manning check-points, when

4 they were speaking to your -- to you through an interpreter, did they ever

5 switch to other languages?

6 A. Sometimes policemen or also NLA fighters changed into German,

7 because a lot of Macedonians worked in Germany. So they were just happy

8 to speak some words German and to talk about the history, where they stood

9 in Germany, where they worked in Germany, things like that.

10 Q. All right. So at that point you could personally participate

11 in --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- the conversations? Finally, or perhaps penultimately, during

14 your time in Macedonia in 2001, did you ever learn that one of your

15 interpreters had seriously or significantly misinterpreted a conversation

16 or incorrectly, significantly and incorrectly interpreted a conversation?

17 ?

18 A. No. I never -- I never saw that they were doing significantly a

19 mistake. What they did sometimes, especially when you was talking to a

20 politician, that they translated one word wrong and a politician would

21 like to say something more soft.

22 Q. More moderate.

23 A. Yeah, more moderate than it was said. So, for example, we had one

24 interview with the -- it was the president of Macedonia, Boris Trajkovski

25 and when the interpreter translated in English to me, the president

Page 2493

1 corrected him with one word so that it was more moderate what he said.

2 Q. Okay. Did you publish many articles in your newspaper in Germany

3 regarding the events in Macedonia during 2001?

4 A. Yes, I did. In times where the fightings erupted or where German

5 soldiers were involved, in which case ever, I reported daily, and in times

6 where the conflict was not on a such high level of intensity, I was not

7 reporting -- yeah, I say weekly.

8 Q. Okay. In 2001, did anyone ever question, particularly did anyone

9 of your sources, did anyone ever contact you and complain that you had

10 written something that was wrong or inaccurate?

11 A. No, never.

12 Q. Okay. If I could turn your mind, please, to the events in

13 Macedonia in 2001. You mention, I believe, that you returned to Macedonia

14 in 2000 -- excuse me, in January of that year. At some point, did you

15 start creating perhaps what we could call a living book?

16 A. Yes. That was part of my daily work to cover the situation in

17 Macedonia because, especially between January and March I had to return

18 sometimes to Germany and to be updated when I was returning to Macedonia,

19 it was necessary for me to be aware of the current situation. So I

20 started drawing a map, how the situation develops.

21 Q. Mm-hm. And were you in Macedonia, for example, during July and

22 August of 2001?

23 A. Yes, I have been.

24 Q. Okay. And did you continue working on this, if we can call it the

25 living book, during those months?

Page 2494

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, we have some materials that we would

3 like to distribute to the Chamber, and to the -- we have extra copies for

4 Defence counsel. And if one copy can be given to the witness, please, we

5 would be very grateful.

6 And, Your Honours, and Mr. Hutsch, if you could please turn to tab

7 1 in the binder. This is from 65 ter number 295. And we just need to

8 look at one of the maps in this range which has the ERN N001-7245.

9 Q. Mr. Hutsch, this map that is in front of you, is this a map that

10 you created?

11 A. Yes, that's a map that I created in the time between the Aracinovo

12 crisis and the beginning of August 2001.

13 Q. Can we just wait a moment, please, because we're going to see now

14 electronic copies appearing in front of us. The hard copy is actually

15 easier to see, I think.

16 And there are a lot of red markings on this map. And can you tell

17 us, please, what these red markings describe?

18 A. So this red mark, it describes --

19 Q. You know what I might ask you to do, so that the Judges can see,

20 can understand what you're speaking about, I may ask you to mark bits of

21 the electronic version that's in front of you.

22 If we can look, please, at -- if I can turn your attention perhaps

23 to the lower left-hand part of this map. We see sort of a circle in red,

24 and then we see some arrows going in different directions. Can you tell

25 us what you drew there?

Page 2495

1 A. It's, I guess, this area that shows us that we have here the

2 position of the 115 NLA Brigade.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. This brigade is doing reconnaissance.

5 Q. Can I stop you for a moment. Next -- to the left of that big

6 circle that you have just drawn, could you please write the numbers 115.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Okay. All right. And did you personally observe members of the

9 115th Brigade in this area?

10 A. Yes. I had contact with the commander of this brigade and I

11 visited him. That was a commander with his fighting name Miskoja. That

12 means the teacher.

13 Q. Up above, if we go in a vertical line up the map, we see a smaller

14 circle. You see that smaller circle in red?

15 A. I think this one?

16 Q. Well, sure. Let's start with that one. What were you marking

17 there?

18 A. There were south-east -- south-west of Cacanik, the Kosovo city

19 Cacanik close. Behind the border in Kosovo there have been logistical

20 centre of the NLA.

21 Q. All right. So can you -- if you can, please, can you draw --

22 again with your pen, because it is difficult to see on the map, could you

23 highlight the line of the border with Kosovo?

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. All right.

Page 2496

1 A. So that's, I think --

2 Q. All right. And so if I understand the map that you have drawn,

3 members of the 115th Brigade at the time were based, if I can use that

4 term, just inside the Kosovo border but were sending reconnaissance units

5 into Macedonia?

6 A. No, that is wrong.

7 Q. Okay. This brigade, 115, have been in the -- in the town of

8 Radusa and Radusa is -- it is close to the border.

9 A. I would say it's divided nearly by the border.

10 Q. All right. But it is on the Macedonian side?

11 A. It is on the Macedonian side.

12 Q. All right. Then up above a little bit higher further into what we

13 now see is Kosovo, there is another small circle. What were you

14 indicating there?

15 A. There have been -- that is also the area hardly west from Cacanik,

16 parts of brigade 114.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. This brigade -- parts of this brigade fought in Aracinovo -

19 Aracinovo is here - and have been withdrawn by NATO troops or by United

20 States troops in June 2001.

21 Q. All right. And was there some kind of a base at that point?

22 A. They had some training camps there, in the area of the village

23 Kotlina.

24 Q. When you say "they," who is "they?"

25 A. "They" is the NLA.

Page 2497

1 Q. All right. And did you observe personally the training camps in

2 that area?

3 A. Yes. I observed -- or I monitored this training camp several

4 times, and it has been there during the complete war.

5 Q. All right. To the left of that circle that you drew showing the

6 area where the part of the 114th Brigade was at that time, could you just

7 write the letters -- hold on, hold on, 114. Okay.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Now, I see you have just -- Mr. Hutsch, I don't know what you just

10 wrote?

11 A. Parts, parts --

12 Q. Ah.

13 A. -- of Brigade 114.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. If could you to me a favour, let me please lead

15 you through this so there is no confusion, all right?

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. I understand you have a lot of knowledge about this matter.

18 A bit the to the east you have just drawn a red circle around a

19 smaller circle. What were you indicating there on this map?

20 A. As being the main logistical assembly for the NLA.

21 Q. And did you personally observe this logistical assembly area?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. All right. And perhaps you could place the number -- so we can

24 indicate that logistical area, perhaps you could above that circle write

25 the letter L, capital L.

Page 2498

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Okay. I'm reminded again, Mr. Hutsch, that so far, our efforts to

3 pause between question and answer are less than perfect. So we need to

4 try to keep that in mind.

5 Next -- or to the right of the area that you marked as the

6 logistical base we see a small half circle just on the Macedonian side of

7 the border. What was that?

8 A. That is the village of Tanusevci and village of Tanusevci was the

9 spear point of the NLA when they entered Macedonia in January 2001, and

10 they kept this village as a stronghold till the end of the war. Is it the

11 part of an old smuggling route and it was one of the main doors for the

12 NLA to enter Macedonia.

13 Q. Mr. Hutsch, above -- perhaps on the Kosovo side of the border

14 above that the area of Tanucevske, could you write a capital T, please.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. And now if you could move further toward the right, we see a

17 series of areas that have been indicated by you sort -- almost forming a

18 vertical line. And perhaps if we could go from the top down. If could

19 you simply describe what each point is.

20 A. So what we have here in common on this line are the positions of

21 Brigade 113.

22 Q. When you say brigade, again, we're talking about a NLA brigade?

23 A. Exactly, an NLA brigade.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. This brigade had in this moment, all in all, five infantry

Page 2499

1 battalions with this position. They were supported by a so-called

2 artillery battalion which was located here. They had some mortar

3 positions here and here. And they did some reconnaissance in this part.

4 In their back, the parts of Brigade 114 were doing reconnaissance.

5 Q. So this would be the part of the 114th Brigade that had not left

6 Macedonia after the fighting around Aracinovo?

7 A. Exactly.

8 Q. Okay. And just to help us understand the whole context of this,

9 could you also draw a circle roughly about where the village of Ljuboten

10 would be?

11 A. Ljuboten is there.

12 Q. All right. And perhaps just so that the record is clear, could

13 you just write the number 1 underneath that circle.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Okay. And all of these positions, then, if I can understand, you

16 personally observed while you were in Macedonia in July/August 2001?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. All right. And was this the situation close to the 10th of

19 August, 2001?

20 A. Yes, it was.

21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P290, Your Honours.

24 MR. SAXON: And perhaps if this exhibit could be taken off the

25 screen now.

Page 2500

1 Q. Mr. Hutsch, I'd like to ask you to turn your mind to the events of

2 Friday, the 10th of August, 2001.

3 Can you recall a particular event that happened on that day?

4 A. So I was investigating a story about the peace process in Ohrid,

5 in Skopje, while one of the interpreters got a phone call about an

6 incident that took place in the north of Ljuboten where members of the

7 army had been trapped into a ambush of the NLA, and unknown of couple of

8 soldiers had been killed, in this moment unknown couple of soldiers.

9 Q. All right. And can you recall which unit of the Macedonian army

10 had suffered that ambush?

11 A. They have been members of the 2nd Company of the 3rd Battalion of

12 the 1st Guardist Brigade.

13 Q. All right. So after you received this information, what did you

14 decide to do?

15 A. We decided to go north to Ljuboten area. There was another

16 incident that made us clear that we should go into this area, because

17 while we were going to -- through Skopje, a column of police vehicles

18 drove also in north direction.

19 Q. When you say "a column of police vehicles," can you describe what

20 kind of vehicles that you saw?

21 A. Normal Steyr-Puch trucks with police officers in camouflage

22 uniforms and a BTR-80.

23 Q. Any jeeps?

24 A. Some jeeps in this column as well.

25 Q. How did you know these were police vehicles as opposed to vehicles

Page 2501

1 of some other entity?

2 A. They were marked by the police plate and they were -- the police

3 officers were wearing the police badges at their uniform.

4 Q. All right. And when you refer to the police plate, are you

5 referring to a licence plate?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. I'd like to ask you, please, to take a look at what is tab

8 5 in the binder.

9 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honours, this photograph is on page 6 of the

10 court binder.

11 Actually, I may be misspeaking, I apologise. I am misspeaking.

12 Q. Before we turn to this, you mentioned that these reserve police

13 officers in the truck had camouflage uniforms with a badge or insignia.

14 What did this insignia say?

15 A. This insignia was on a dark ground, with the letters or the

16 capitals PM, Policija Macedonia and they were surrounded in the lower part

17 by some leaves that -- that this circle are wearing the formal Roman

18 Ceasars.

19 Q. Can we turn, please, to page 23 of the court binder.

20 And, Witness, I'll let you know which photograph I'm speaking

21 about.

22 Witness, and if I could direct the parties' attentions to

23 photograph B of the court binder.

24 Witness, can you take a look at that photograph on the right-hand

25 side?

Page 2502

1 A. Yes, exactly. Exactly these badges they were wearing.

2 Q. Okay. And so those were the police badges that you saw on these

3 gentlemen in the trucks?

4 A. Exactly.

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but could the

7 Prosecution perhaps put it on the screen so that we can see what document

8 and what picture. I think it is being done, Your Honour. Thank you.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Exhibit P35.

10 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

11 Q. And so -- yeah, there it is.

12 And so when you saw this column, you decided to follow it. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Okay. And did you notice whether the policemen in the back of the

16 truck were armed or not?

17 A. The policemen, so far as we could see, monitor, they were armed

18 with the normal Kalashnikov rifles.

19 Q. Okay. And where did you go then?

20 A. We went to Radishan, and in the -- in the -- in the end of the

21 village, if you -- when you -- and you're passing from Skopje, there was a

22 temporarily check-point from -- from police officers.

23 Q. And was that check-point then at the end of the village close--

24 going in the direction of the village of Ljubanci?

25 A. Yes, it was.

Page 2503

1 Q. I'd like to ask you to turn, please, to tab 3 of the binder. And

2 this is 65 ter number 295.

3 Okay. Witness, did you create this?

4 A. Yes. That was -- I create this during my statement here in the

5 Tribunal.

6 Q. And if you look over towards the left-hand side of this map, or

7 portion of a map, first we see -- we see in small letters the village name

8 Radishan and above that we see a circle. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes, I see.

10 Q. Can you draw a larger circle around that with your red pen. It

11 didn't work, I'm sorry, Witness.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. All right. And we can see that you wrote the letters pointing to

14 the inner circle above Radisani, you wrote the word CP. What does that

15 stand for?

16 A. That stands for check-point.

17 Q. Okay. And a bit above and to the right, a bit to the north-east,

18 we see a couple of small circles and then another marking above it. Can

19 you explain what those small markings are?

20 A. These marking are first a mortar position, here.

21 Q. Mm-hm. And a mortar position which what force?

22 A. By the -- probably by the Macedonian army.

23 Q. All right. And then below that, we see two little circles.

24 A. These are two target areas, where these mortars fired in while I

25 was in the area of the check-point, and I could monitor myself.

Page 2504

1 Q. Okay. And that -- what is now a sort of dark red filled-in

2 circle, would that be filling in the village of Ljuboten?

3 A. Yes, exactly.

4 Q. Okay. Perhaps just -- just beneath that dark red circle could you

5 write a capital letter L.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Okay. Were you allowed to pass through the check-point where you

8 were at that time?

9 A. At that time we wasn't allowed to pass the check-point. We just

10 were allowed to stay around the check-point in the area.

11 Q. And help us, please. I'm not sure if you said this already. Who

12 was manning this check-point?

13 A. This check-point had around eight, up to ten, police officers. It

14 seems to me that two of them have been active police officers, because

15 they were wearing the normal, I will say, blue uniform.

16 Q. Mm-hm.

17 A. And six, up to eight have been reserve officers, because, yeah,

18 they were wearing the camouflaged uniform and they were drinking some

19 beer, and this was always in an indicia for reserve officers, because when

20 they came to their duty, they drank beer there.

21 Q. And about how much time did you spend at this check-point or

22 around this check-point?

23 A. Around this check-point, roughly around three hours.

24 Q. Okay.

25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would seek it tender this

Page 2505

1 map, please.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P291, Your Honours.


5 Q. And, Mr. Hutsch, if you and the parties could turn to what is tab

6 4 in your binder, which is, as everyone will see, a rather large

7 photograph.

8 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honours, this large photograph is a printout

9 from the audiovisual that you know as the Ljuboten panorama.

10 Perhaps a copy of this could be placed on the ELMO for the

11 public. It has --

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry to say, Mr. Saxon, that the last exhibit,

14 the marking was lost.

15 MR. SAXON: I see.

16 THE WITNESS: So we do that again.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Mr. Hutsch is way ahead of both of us,

18 Mr. Saxon.

19 MR. SAXON: All right.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22 MR. SAXON: All right. Could this particular image now be

23 tendered into evidence, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be the exhibit just received.

25 MR. SAXON: I'm wondering whether perhaps the witness's copy of

Page 2506

1 the -- of what is tab 4, if that could be moved onto the ELMO, please.

2 Because we were not able to place this onto e-court in a way that we could

3 annotate it.

4 Q. Mr. Hutsch, I need you to move that photograph on to this

5 projector, so you can look at it there, all right?

6 MR. SAXON: And perhaps if the audiovisual people could assist us

7 by bringing the projector up as high as possible, so we can see as much of

8 this image as possible. And then occasionally I may ask the witness to

9 move the photograph from one side to the other.

10 Q. Before we talk about this image, Witness, going back to the

11 policemen at this check-point, did they tell you why you couldn't pass

12 through it?

13 A. The police -- the policemen told us that there were ongoing police

14 operation in the area of Ljuboten.

15 Q. This is now on Friday, the 10th of August.

16 A. Yeah, that's something -- something for -- of an operation was

17 prepared something there.

18 Q. All right. If we take a look at this large photograph now, does

19 this photograph describe the view that you had near that check-point on

20 the afternoon of the 10th of August?

21 A. Yes. It shows this view nearly.

22 Q. Okay. And we see -- if you look at the bottom left-hand corner of

23 the photograph, you see capital letters OP-1. Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can we agree that this photograph we will refer to it as

Page 2507

1 observation point 1?

2 A. Yes, we can.

3 Q. Okay. Now, in this photograph where you were standing you would

4 be looking -- your view was from the south to the north, right?

5 A. Exactly.

6 Q. All right. Now I need to ask you for your assistance a bit.

7 Perhaps could you mark, in general, where, for example, the

8 village of Ljubanci would be on this photograph?

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would ask if the counsel if he

10 could move closer to the microphone, please, because we not able to hear

11 him.

12 MR. SAXON: Okay.

13 Q. And that would be the eastern edge of the village of Ljubanci?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Okay. And if you could help us, please, then perhaps to the left

16 of that circle, could you write in not too large letters, the

17 word "Ljubanci."

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Okay. Now, moving towards the right a little bit, a little bit

20 further, please. No, to the right. Now, there we see now -- now near the

21 centre of the photograph now, we see what appears to be the minaret of a

22 mosque. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, I see.

24 Q. What village was that mosque in?

25 A. That's in the mosque of Ljuboten.

Page 2508

1 Q. All right. So perhaps above the minaret, please, could you write

2 the words "Ljuboten," the word "Ljuboten."

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Okay. Now, if we could move the photograph back to the left, just

5 a bit. All right. Now we see right now roughly in the centre of the

6 photograph, in the foreground we see what appears to be a hill. You see

7 this hill?

8 A. This one?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when you were in that position on the 10th of August, 2001,

12 how did you refer to this hill?

13 A. This -- this hill --

14 Q. Uh-huh.

15 A. -- covers the western part of Ljuboten --

16 Q. No, no. You're not -- I'm sorry, my question was not clear. What

17 did you call this hill?

18 A. I was calling this hill out of a Serbian map, hill 631.

19 Q. Okay. Could you please write the numbers 631 on the side of that

20 hill.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. All right. Now, you had been informed about this mine explosion,

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that was in a place called Ljubotenski Bacila?

Page 2509

1 A. Yes. That's what I heard.

2 Q. Okay. Now, in this photograph can we see specifically the place

3 called Ljubotenski Bacila?

4 A. We can just see it just roughly.

5 Q. Well, no, that is not my question. Can we see the place, the

6 specific place called Ljubotenski Bacila?

7 A. Yes, we can.

8 Q. Well, then, could you please draw a circle approximately where it

9 would be.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. So it is somewhere up in a valley on the side of that ridge?

12 A. Yes, it is on the other side of the ridge. That means you have to

13 see behind this ridge and there it -- this place is.

14 Q. So to answer the question that I asked you before, that means if

15 it is on the other side of this ridge from where you were standing you

16 could not see it, could you?

17 A. Exactly.

18 Q. Okay. Could you, above that circle, write the letters capital L

19 and then capital B?

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. At some point after the events in Ljuboten on the 12th of August,

22 did you go personally to the spot known as Ljubotenski Bacila?

23 A. Yes. I did so when I was called up as a reserve officer to serve

24 in the German embassy in Skopje. I went there in late October.

25 Q. All right.

Page 2510

1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this point, could this map please be

2 marked for identification. I'll seek to tender it at a later time.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P292, marked for identification, Your

5 Honours.


7 Q. And just so that we're clear, when did you switch from working as

8 a journalist to working as a reserve army officer?

9 A. In the middle of September, 2001.

10 Q. All right.

11 MR. SAXON: Before that is removed, hold on, can we leave that

12 there for a moment, please.

13 Q. Can you recall while you were standing approximately around this

14 spot, later in the afternoon what did you observe going on?

15 A. I saw some single -- single rounds fired by mortars to the

16 entrance and the outgoing of Ljuboten.

17 Q. To the entrance and to the exit of Ljuboten?

18 A. Exactly.

19 Q. But the entrance and the exit what directions are you referring

20 to?

21 A. Left side in my -- from my point of view, left side was the

22 entrance --

23 Q. Would that be to the -- the western entrance?

24 A. Exactly.

25 Q. Uh-huh. And then the exit would be on what side of Ljuboten?

Page 2511

1 A. On the eastern exit.

2 Q. All right. You say you saw some mortar rounds. And where did

3 these mortar rounds land?

4 A. These mortar rounds land in the -- in the western entrance part of

5 Ljuboten and in the eastern exit part of Ljuboten.

6 Q. Okay. About how many rounds were fired, how many impacts did you

7 see?

8 A. All in all, between eight and ten.

9 Q. And just so that we're clear, were you using binoculars to observe

10 these events?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. All right. And what was your impression of this mortar fire, as a

13 person with your military background?

14 A. As a -- as a former forward observer, it was clear to me that the

15 mortars started to fix target areas.

16 Q. I see. All right. And why did you feel that way? Why did you

17 form that opinion?

18 A. Because if this mortar fire should destroy or neutralise a

19 position, you have to fire with a couple of mortars. That means with at

20 least five, up to six mortars, because if you fire just one round, you

21 can't with a mortar grenade hit exactly the point you would like to hit.

22 The detonation is possibly between 50 and 100 metre away from the target.

23 So just to have a result in the target, you have to -- to shoot with at

24 least, yeah, five to six mortars or Howitzers into this area.

25 Q. That's in order to neutralise a target?

Page 2512

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. As opposed to fixing accuracy of --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- shooting? All right. At that time on this Friday afternoon,

5 the 10th of August, did you observe any outgoing fire from the village of

6 Ljuboten?

7 A. No, I didn't observe that.

8 Q. Okay. Had you been in places in Macedonia during the crisis time

9 in 2001 where --

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Let me finish my question. Had you been in places where

12 Macedonian forces had fired on NLA positions?

13 A. Yes, I have been.

14 Q. And in your experience, what was the response of the NLA?

15 A. If you would say it a little bit kidding, you would say there was

16 nothing coming in what wouldn't go out. So when a shot came in, the NLA

17 immediately respond.

18 Q. All right. And, for example, where in Macedonia, what parts of

19 Macedonia did you observe these kind of military dynamics?

20 A. In the complete Tetovo area, Radusa area, Kumanovo area.

21 Q. All right. Okay. We mentioned Ljubotenski Bacila, and I don't

22 want to forget that at this point.

23 MR. SAXON: Can we move to tab 5 of the binder, please, which is

24 the photograph at page 6 of the court binder. It is 65 ter number 199.2,

25 N004-4764.

Page 2513

1 Q. Mr. Hutsch, do you recognise the photograph that you see?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. What does it depict?

4 A. It's the place where the ambush took place against the soldiers

5 from the 2nd Company, 3rd battalion, 1st guard brigade.

6 Q. And is this place known as Ljubotenski Bacila?

7 A. As far as I know, yes.

8 Q. Is it part of the populated region of the village of Ljuboten?

9 A. No, it's not.

10 Q. Okay. If we could just spend another moment, please, on what you

11 saw on the Friday, 10th of August. If we could turn now to tab 6 of your

12 binder.

13 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I'm not sure if this -- excuse me. I'm

14 not sure if the photograph of Ljubotenski Bacila is in evidence. If it is

15 not, I would like to tender it.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It is not. It will be received.

17 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P293, Your Honours.

19 MR. SAXON: If we can turn to tab 6 of the binder, please, which

20 is a panoramic photograph of Ljuboten that has been annotated. It's from

21 65 ter number 176. If that could be brought up on the screen, please.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Hutsch, did you make the annotations on this photograph?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. And does this photograph depict -- hmm, no. We need to go back to

25 the colour photograph that we had before, if we can.

Page 2514

1 Does this photograph depict now a view from north to south, going

2 across the village of Ljuboten?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. All right. And let's start, then, with the circle, there's a blue

5 circle on the left-hand side, and there's a note underneath that, says

6 "impacts 120-millimetre." Do you see that?

7 A. Yes, I see.

8 Q. What does that circle then describe?

9 A. That have been the two target areas that I saw on Friday

10 afternoon.

11 Q. Mr. Hutsch, I'm only referring to the circle on the left-hand

12 side.

13 A. That -- the left circle is one of the target areas I saw in the --

14 in the Friday afternoon.

15 Q. And by "the target areas," you mean of the mortar -- what appeared

16 to you to be mortar fire?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that left-hand circle, that would be the far eastern edge of

19 the village of Ljuboten?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Take a look at -- if we go towards the right now, we see an arrow,

22 a thick arrow pointing down and then there's some -- there's half of a

23 rectangle and some other markings and then the letters 120 and then the

24 words "Nikola." What were you trying to depict there?

25 A. What I saw was that the fire that came to -- the target area was

Page 2515

1 fired from the area of the monastery of Saint Nikola and in my point of

2 view it had been fired by 120-millimetres mortars.

3 Q. Just to go step by step. So this half of a rectangle above the

4 number 120, that's -- that is not part of the photograph, right?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. So that was your way of depicting approximately where this mortar

7 position would have been, had the photograph been a bit bigger. Is that

8 fair?

9 A. Yes, exactly.

10 Q. All right. Why did you believe that the mortar fire -- let me go

11 more slowly.

12 The mortar fire that was being fired that day into the village of

13 Ljuboten, do you know who was firing it?

14 A. In this moment, I didn't know.

15 Q. Okay. Why did you think it was 120-millimetre mortar fire?

16 A. The sound of a 120-millimetre mortar is -- is very deep, like an

17 old man is angry and he shouts with somebody.

18 Q. Uh-huh. And that would be compared to what other kind of mortar,

19 for example?

20 A. For example, if you have an 82-metre mortar, it sounds more like a

21 child is crying.

22 Q. So you use the sound of the fire to make a determination of the

23 probable calibre of the mortar that was being fired?

24 A. Exactly.

25 Q. You told me at that time on Friday afternoon, the 10th of August,

Page 2516

1 you didn't know who was firing these shells. Did you subsequently find

2 out who was doing this firing?

3 A. Yeah. What we found out then in the evening with some phone calls

4 is that the positions in the north of Ljuboten and Ljubanci were-- were in

5 the end of the army and that these mortars are belonging to the army in

6 this area.

7 Q. All right. And if you go a bit further to the right, there's

8 another blue circle, what appears to be the far western side of Ljuboten.

9 What is depicted in that circle?

10 A. Here we have the other target area where single shells were fired

11 in.

12 Q. All right.

13 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this photograph,

14 please.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE PARKER: I'm told, Mr. Saxon, that this is one of seven

17 photographs. Are you planning to use all seven?

18 MR. SAXON: I'm not planning on using all seven. And if I can

19 just clarify, I am planning on using a few other photographs in this

20 range. But at this time, I would seek simply to tender this photograph

21 with ERN number N001-7278.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It is feasible and it will be done, but it means

23 there has to be quite a process to extract one out of the seven. It will

24 be done.

25 MR. SAXON: I will take that on board for the next time, Your

Page 2517

1 Honour. I apologise.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Just it would be of assistance if we minimised that

3 sort of inconvenience.

4 MR. SAXON: If it would save work, then, Your Honour, I believe --

5 JUDGE PARKER: No. It will be done.

6 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 THE REGISTRAR: It will be received as Exhibit P294, Your Honours.

8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, would this be a convenient time to break?

9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

10 And we will resume at 1.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

14 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour. Very briefly we'd like it

15 apologise on behalf of our client. We have talked to the security. Our

16 client was trying to get our attention to pass us a note and we have

17 discussed with the security people who are sitting next to him and it is

18 agreed that they would pass the paper on to us in the course of the

19 proceedings. We have asked also our client not to pass this note too

20 often so as not to disrupt the actual work and obligations of the security

21 guards, but they've been very kind.

22 Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mettraux.

24 Now, Mr. Saxon.


Page 2518

1 Q. Mr. Hutsch, I'd like to ask you, please, to turn your mind to the

2 events of Saturday, 11th of August, 2001. Can you recall, please, what

3 did you do on that Saturday morning, when you woke up?

4 A. When I woke up we decided to go to Ljuboten area because we

5 expected that something at that day would happen in this area.

6 Q. Who is "we"?

7 A. "We" means in this moment the Macedonian interpreter and me.

8 Q. And when did you leave Skopje approximately?

9 A. Approximately a quarter to 7.00, 7.00.

10 Q. And did you again drive towards the village of Radisani?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what were you driving in?

13 A. We were driving all the time in a white Land Rover crusader.

14 Q. I see. And were there any special markings on this white Land

15 Rover?

16 A. We marked them as usual for war correspondents as a press car.

17 That means we had a sign TV in front and on all the sides of this car.

18 Q. And on this day, for example, were you and the interpreter wearing

19 any special clothing?

20 A. No, we didn't wear special clothes but we had all the time in the

21 car our flakjackets and helmets.

22 Q. And when you use the term "flakjacket," are you referring to

23 something that is also known as a bullet-proof vest?

24 A. Yes, exactly.

25 Q. And did you arrive at the same check-point that we described

Page 2519

1 earlier as observation point 1, that area?

2 A. Yes we did.

3 Q. And who did you find there?

4 A. We found again the same police officers who are doing their duty

5 there.

6 Q. And was there any discussion between you and these police

7 officers?

8 A. There was a discussion if we could pass or if we couldn't pass,

9 and I say in the -- in the normal way for the Balkans we solved this

10 problem.

11 Q. And can you tell us, please, how you solved the problem?

12 A. We gave over some bottles of beer, and in this case, 50 German

13 marks.

14 Q. Who did you give the German marks to?

15 A. To one of the, for me, active police officers.

16 Q. And why did you give the 50 German marks to this particular police

17 officer?

18 A. For me, it seems that he was in command of this check-point.

19 Q. Okay. And why did you conclude that this person was in command of

20 the check-point? What led to you believe that?

21 A. He gave orders to the other police officers there. He, for

22 example, sent one of the guys inside -- not inside, inside the car to --

23 to overview for me the radio communication or to control the other cars

24 who were passing this check-points.

25 Q. I see. And you were then eventually allowed to pass through the

Page 2520

1 check-point, right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And on that road then, were you proceeding towards Ljubanci?

4 A. Yes, we were going to Ljubanci.

5 Q. Do you remember -- we're still talking about the morning of

6 Saturday, 11 August, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you recall approximately what time you arrived in Ljubanci?

9 A. 9.30, 10.00.

10 Q. All right. And when you were in Ljubanci on that morning, were

11 you able to observe positions of the army and the police in that village?

12 A. Yes, I was.

13 Q. I'd like to ask you, please, to turn to what is tab 7 in your

14 binder.

15 MR. SAXON: There is 65 ter number 295. It has ERN number

16 N001-7247. If that could be brought up on the screen, please.

17 Q. Just so we're clear, is this a map, the annotations on this map,

18 did you produce them?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the designation that you have been putting -- that you have

21 placed on this map and others like it that we've seen, did this come from

22 the information you had written in your notebooks?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We'll discuss some of your notebooks later on.

25 Perhaps let's just start with the -- the letters that are on the

Page 2521

1 left side, please, we see the letters ARM and then MUP with an arrow

2 pointed towards a village that I can see on my hard copy to be Ljubanci.

3 Can you tell us what you were trying to depict there?

4 A. That means that in the village of Ljubanci in this time there was

5 a concentration and assembly area of -- of police forces and as well

6 positions from soldiers that are belonging to the -- to the army of

7 Macedonia.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would like to ask, please not

9 to overlap, because it is impossible to interpret in this way. I

10 apologise.

11 MR. SAXON: I have been instructed again that you and I need to

12 pause a bit more between our sentences.

13 Q. If you could look directly to the right, on the -- further to the

14 right, we see the number 2 and the number company and the number 2 and the

15 word -- I'm sorry, number 2 and the word "company," and then the number 2

16 and the word "battalion." Is -- are both of those numbers correct?

17 A. No, they are not.

18 Q. What is the mistake there?

19 A. It's the 2nd Company of the 3rd Battalion.

20 Q. Okay. And is that referring to an army unit?

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. The army of Macedonia?

23 A. The army of Macedonia.

24 Q. And, again, you need to pause between my question and your answer.

25 Can you please take your marker, take the pen and draw a line

Page 2522

1 through that incorrect number 2 and write the correct number that should

2 be there next to it.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you. Down below, we see the number 3 Company and below

5 that, 2 Battalion. Are both of those numbers correct?

6 A. No. Here we have also the 3rd Battalion, like I was writing in

7 one sign and I was writing in this shot abbreviations as well, that it --

8 Q. All right.

9 A. -- that these are units of the 3rd Battalion.

10 Q. And by the 3rd Battalion, that is the 3rd battalion of the 1st

11 Guardist Brigade?

12 A. Yes that is.

13 Q. Of the Macedonian army?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you draw a line that you that inaccurate number 2, please,

16 and write the letter 3 again.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. All right. If you can move now more towards the centre of the

19 map, we see an arrow pointing towards the north-east and we see the

20 word "mortars." And underneath that arrow there's a line. Can you explain

21 what you were trying to depict there?

22 A. With this marking with this position, I tried to -- to make clear

23 that there have been the mortar position from the army in the area of the

24 monastery Saint Nikola.

25 Q. And, for the record, the witness has drawn a red line above the

Page 2523

1 numbers 2.1.

2 And if you could, please -- there's below the number 2.1, we see a

3 line that appears to go, I hope I'm saying this accurately, from the

4 north-west towards the south-east. What does that blue line show?

5 A. This blue line shows the positions of the 2nd Company of the 3rd

6 Battalion.

7 Q. Of the Macedonian army?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So is it correct then to interpret your annotations as that the

10 2nd Company of the 3rd Battalion was somewhere in an elevation above the

11 village of Ljuboten?

12 A. Exactly. They have been north and north-east of Ljuboten.

13 Q. Okay. All right.

14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this, please.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P295, Your Honours.


18 Q. Mr. Hutsch, could you please turn to what is tab 8 of your

19 binder. And this is again -- this is again from 65 ter number 295. The

20 ERN of this map is N001-7248.

21 Mr. Hutsch, did you produce this sketch?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. You mentioned earlier -- I'll step back for a moment.

24 In general terms, what does this sketch represent, just in general

25 terms?

Page 2524

1 A. It shows the village of Ljubanci, and inside this village some

2 assembly areas from the police forces and a headquarter of the army as

3 well as a logistical centre from the army.

4 Q. All right. I'd like to take this now more step by step.

5 And does this sketch depict what you saw then on the morning of

6 Saturday, 11 August?

7 A. Yes, exactly.

8 Q. Okay. We see in the middle -- first of all, it looks like you've

9 drawn a little -- my mind is not working as quickly as it should. You're

10 indicating that word -- the MUP on the lower left-hand side means assembly

11 areas of MUP and in this case by "MUP," you're referring to the Macedonian

12 police. Is that right?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. And the letters VVD, what do those letters refer to?

15 A. That means a forward logistical centre of a battalion.

16 Q. And that battalion would have been of the Macedonian army?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Can you describe -- for example, let's just stick with the

19 police units that you saw in these assembly areas. Can you-- first of

20 all, how did you know that these were police?

21 A. You could see camouflaged and uniforms in majority and minority

22 black overalls, and all these uniforms were marked with this police badge

23 we saw before.

24 Q. Okay. Did you see any -- and if we can -- if I can just ask you,

25 because you mentioned army, and you mentioned police. On that day where

Page 2525

1 did you see -- where did you primarily see members of the army?

2 A. Members of the army I saw primarily in the area of the school

3 where I was told that the headquarter of the 3rd Battalion was located,

4 and I saw them close to the monastery of Saint Nikola, in a house and

5 by -- both sites of the street close to that monastery where they located

6 their logistical centre.

7 Q. Okay. And did you see members of the army above Ljuboten?

8 A. Yes. I saw single positions from the -- the army in the north and

9 north-east of the Ljuboten.

10 Q. And how far above Ljuboten in those hills would you estimate those

11 army positions were?

12 A. A direction I suppose between 700 metre and 1.5 kilometres.

13 Q. Okay. You mentioned, first of all, that the -- the army of

14 Macedonia had a command post or a headquarters at the school. In the

15 centre of this sketch, we see a blue circle around a rectangle that's

16 marked "school." Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Now, how did you know, for example, that they were -- the

19 persons headquartered there were members of the army?

20 A. This school was guarded by army soldiers, and inside the

21 schoolyard you could see vehicles of the army with the number plates as

22 well of the army, and there were some blue Hummer commanding vehicles, and

23 these light brown army vehicles that you saw usually with the army.

24 Q. So you were able to distinguish between uniforms worn by army

25 soldiers and uniforms worn by police officers?

Page 2526

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you describe briefly what the difference was? What did the

3 army uniforms look like at that time?

4 A. The army uniforms in this time have been light brown with -- with

5 dark brown, black points inside, and the -- the police uniforms, they were

6 looking very similar to the -- the American uniforms. That means they

7 were more camouflaged in green/brown colours.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. And, of course, the insignia or patches would

9 have been different?

10 A. Yes. Because the army, they were having the flag of Macedonia,

11 the Republic of Macedonia on their arms.

12 Q. If you could estimate -- actually, you also mention a logistics

13 centre. And where was that? The logistics centre of the army. Where was

14 that?

15 A. That was on the road from Ljubanci to the monastery of Saint

16 Nikola. I think the commanding post of this logistical centre was in the

17 building close to the monastery if you are going north right side the

18 street.

19 Q. And do you know in normal times what that building was used for?

20 A. I was told that it was planned to -- to -- to establish their--

21 something like a hotel for pilgrims who would go to the monastery.

22 Q. Okay. Do you see a building there known as the children's rest

23 home?

24 A. The term children's rest house, I learned later on when I was a

25 reserve officer in Macedonia.

Page 2527

1 Q. Okay. And do you now associate this logistics centre in any way

2 with the children rest home?

3 A. Yeah. It was the commanding post and some of the logistical

4 things were inside this rest house.

5 Q. Okay. If you could estimate -- well, let me start again.

6 Did you see any -- first of all, did you see any armoured vehicles

7 in Ljubanci that morning?

8 A. Yes, in the entrance, if you -- in the south entrance of Ljubanci,

9 you could see two BTR APCs hardly south the football field.

10 Q. Do you know to which institution these APCs belonged to?

11 A. They belonged to the police.

12 Q. How did you know that?

13 A. There were police badges like the normal police officers were

14 wearing on their uniforms on these APCs.

15 Q. Okay. And you described these APCs or armoured personnel carriers

16 as BTR. Would this be the same kind of APC as what was known as a

17 Hermelin or is a Hermelin a different kind of APC?

18 A. A Hermelin is a -- a Hermelin is a different kind of APC. It's

19 more light than the BTR.

20 Q. All right. And did you see any weapons mounted on these APCs on

21 Saturday?

22 A. They were the normal equipment or the normal arm. That means they

23 had 14.5-millimetre machine-gun in top of the APC.

24 Q. All right. Going back now to what is circled as the school on

25 your sketch here, you mentioned that it was some kind of command post or a

Page 2528

1 headquarters. Do you know if there were any police commanders present at

2 this school on that day?

3 A. In the schoolyard, I could see a mixture between these commanding

4 vehicles of the army as well as normal police vehicles like Cherokee

5 jeeps.

6 Q. All right. But my question was: "Do you know if there were --

7 did you form any opinion as to whether there were any police commanders

8 present?

9 A. What I saw as well was that some police commanders, officers

10 entered the school. By the behaviour of these police officers, I suppose

11 that they are commanders.

12 Q. All right. And why did you draw or form that opinion? What was

13 it about the behaviour of these gentlemen or the persons around them that

14 made you form that opinion?

15 A. First they were saluted by the guards. Second, they gave orders

16 to their drivers to drive away the car from the entrance to a parking

17 place, and they came out and shouted to some drivers and then these

18 drivers drove away to do something.

19 Q. Okay. Was there anything in particular that you noticed about

20 these Jeep Cherokees from the police?

21 A. Sorry?

22 Q. You mentioned that there were some Jeep Cherokees, Cherokee Jeeps?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. From the police. Was there anything about the equipment on these

25 jeeps that drew your attention?

Page 2529

1 A. These Cherokee jeeps were equipped with -- with radio

2 communication, and you could see with this radio communication that they

3 are -- and also in my experience to that point, that they are used as

4 commanding vehicles.

5 Q. How many antennas did these jeeps have?

6 A. These jeep had one antenna and one radio communication.

7 Q. And why did that indicate you that these jeeps belonged to

8 commanders or were command vehicles?

9 A. For example, you have had other jeeps, mostly Lada jeeps who

10 didn't have any radio communication and they just had mobile radio

11 communication to use it for commanding or for patrolling.

12 Q. So what was special about the radio equipment on these --

13 A. They had a --

14 Q. -- jeeps that you saw?

15 A. -- fix -- they had a fixed radio communication set inside the jeep

16 and that means also one antenna.

17 Q. All right. And why did that indicate to you that the person

18 moving around in that jeep would be a commander?

19 A. Because what I saw is that in the past, what I saw in the past,

20 that these Cherokee jeeps were given to commanders as a commanding

21 vehicle.

22 Q. Okay. Because they needed special communication equipment.

23 A. Yeah, they need special communication equipment to cover their

24 patrols.

25 Q. All right. Tell us a bit, please, about -- first of all, you

Page 2530

1 describe here on this sketch several different assembly points of police

2 officers. I can see four, four circles. Approximately how many police

3 officers did you see assembled in Ljubanci there on that day? Actually --

4 yeah.

5 A. Between 100 and 150.

6 Q. And what did you observe about these police officers? How were

7 they behaving?

8 A. These officers were preparing shall -- were preparing something,

9 an operation because, for example, they were putting ammunition into their

10 magazines. They were preparing their personal equipment, like they

11 were -- yeah, looking for their bullet-proof vests. They were looking for

12 their helmets. They were preparing rucksacks with water and some food.

13 And it was all close together. That means not one of these soldiers or

14 these police officers was far away from his personal equipment.

15 Q. And why did the filling of magazines with ammunition, filling of

16 rucksacks, et cetera, why did that indicate to you that these police

17 officers were preparing for an operation?

18 A. So they -- they have been armed. They have been provided with

19 ammunition. You won't do that without just -- just for -- for holiday

20 trip or for an exercise.

21 Q. Mm-hm. And the filling of rucksacks. What did that mean to you?

22 A. That prepares -- that shows me that, yeah, they would leave

23 Ljubanci because in Ljubanci they could get water everywhere in every

24 house. Just if they would like to leave Ljubanci into another place,

25 they would use water in bottles.

Page 2531

1 Q. All right. Did you have any conversations with any of these

2 police officers?

3 A. Yeah. We had conversation to some of these police officers, but

4 nothing what was going into -- into depth.

5 Q. But even without going into depth can you recall more or less what

6 some of these police officers said?

7 A. They said, yeah, we have to fight against the terrorists. We have

8 to -- to fight against terrorists in Ljuboten. We are going to fight

9 them, things like that.

10 Q. Okay. Did they make any references to the mine explosion at

11 Ljubotenski Bacila?

12 A. There was I thought, like, angriness among them, because some of

13 their comrades died there or some of the Macedonian security forces died

14 there.

15 Q. Did you observe amongst these policemens, a group 100 or 150, did

16 you observe any lack of discipline?

17 A. No, there were no a lack of discipline. They were highly

18 disciplined, these soldiers. I didn't see one bottle of beer among them.

19 There were nothing.

20 Q. All right. Earlier you mentioned that some of these police

21 officers were wearing black overalls with police patches. Do you remember

22 telling me that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want to explore this with you a little bit, please.

25 Prior to the events in Ljuboten, were there any, you know, perhaps

Page 2532

1 mid-July, sometime in July, were there any rumours going around or

2 information circulating among the journalists about new units in the

3 Macedonian police?

4 A. Yes. It was the rumour that in the Ministry of Interior some new

5 units have been built up, have been founded. And these units would have

6 been under the direct command of the Minister of Interior.

7 Q. And what information did you have as to the minister's -- well,

8 what information did you have as to the reason for the establishment of

9 these units? What led to the establishment of them?

10 A. So I did an interview with the minister of defence in the

11 beginning of August, and he disagreed with the -- with the way the

12 Minister of the Interior would like to handle the crisis. So --

13 Q. One second. If we can just go a bit more slowly.

14 That Defence Minister was Mr. -- at the time, 2001, that was

15 Vlado Buckovski, right?

16 A. Exactly.

17 Q. And can you describe a little bit more precisely what the

18 nature -- what was the nature of the disagreement that Minister Buckovski

19 described between himself and Minister Boskoski?

20 A. The defence minister would like or saw the future of Macedonia

21 in -- in a cooperation -- not a cooperation, in a common life between all

22 the ethnical groups. That means for him, he would like to deal and to

23 manage the crisis, but he's -- his focus was on the future. And the

24 Minister of Interior tried to fight against the NLA in the most hardest

25 way and purpose to destroy them, and he doesn't have a -- an option or

Page 2533

1 a -- a vision about the future for the former -- for the future Macedonia.

2 Q. And how did you relate this information -- well let me step back

3 for a minute.

4 During this interview with the defence minister what if anything

5 did the defence minister tell you about future joint operations between

6 the army and police?

7 A. He said that there will be -- that in his point of view there

8 shouldn't be any more combined joint operations between the army and the

9 Ministry of Interior.

10 Q. That was because he and Mr. Boskoski did not agree?

11 A. Exactly.

12 Q. As to how to conduct the war?

13 A. Yes, exactly.

14 Q. So if we can move back to this information that you had received

15 about the formation of new police units in the Ministry of the Interior,

16 so what, then, did you understand -- what was the information that you

17 received for -- in terms of the purpose of these new units or unit?

18 A. So, it became more and more clear in the time, I will say, until

19 October and November, so these units were equipped, that they could --

20 could fight on their own without support from the army, and they were also

21 trained to fight alone without support of the army.

22 Q. And what was your understanding -- to whom -- who would benefit

23 from the establishment of these units?

24 A. The Minister of Interior himself.

25 Q. Why?

Page 2534

1 A. Because he had a couple of special units who would follow his

2 personal order and in my personal point of view, he did something -- he

3 created something like his pretorians [sic].

4 Q. I want to go back now to this issue of the black overalls. You

5 saw some police officers in Ljubanci that Saturday wearing black overalls?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. With police insignia. On that Saturday, did you make any

8 connection between police officers wearing black overalls and the

9 information you had received about creation of new Special Units?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P296, Your Honours.


16 Q. Do you remember until -- approximately how much time did you spend

17 in Ljubanci on that Saturday?

18 A. Between four and five hours.

19 Q. Okay. And did you observe any -- well, let me start again.

20 Did you hear or observe any shooting, any kind of shooting that

21 Saturday?

22 A. What I heard is some machine-gun fire from the positions of the

23 2nd Company towards Ljuboten, and I heard again some single rounds that

24 were fired by mortars into Ljuboten.

25 Q. And could you ascertain or judge who was firing the single rounds

Page 2535

1 into Ljuboten?

2 A. They came from the mortars in the area of the monastery of Saint

3 Nikola.

4 Q. And that indicated to you what, that they were coming from which

5 force?

6 A. From the army.

7 Q. All right. Again, what opinion did you draw, or conclusion, from

8 your observations of these single rounds being directed into Ljuboten?

9 A. They didn't make a right sense to me in the first, but if you

10 think about that, it was also some rounds that were fired to fix the

11 target areas.

12 Q. All right. So it was a similar situation to what you had observed

13 on Friday, the 10th?

14 A. Exactly.

15 Q. All right.

16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I see the time. Would this a convenient

17 time to stop?

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

19 MR. SAXON: And if I could simply just clarify an issue of witness

20 scheduling, Your Honour, this witness cannot arrive back in The Hague in

21 time for court on Monday. Therefore, on Monday, we will continue with the

22 next witness on our schedule, finish that witness, hopefully on Monday or

23 Tuesday, and then Mr. Hutsch will be back to finish his evidence during

24 the remainder of the week.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

Page 2536

1 Have we caught up with all the witnesses who fell by the wayside?

2 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour. There is one witness who was ill

3 last week, and we knew that -- well, let me start again.

4 Because there were several witnesses last week who were ill, two

5 of which began their testimony, we knew because of certain commitments to

6 witness scheduling this week and next that we couldn't bring -- we

7 couldn't keep both of the ill witnesses here, so there is one witness who

8 the Prosecution will bring back hopefully in about two weeks' time to

9 finish his evidence.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. Thank you.

11 We must now adjourn, and we resume on Monday at 9.00.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of June,

14 2007, at 9.00 a.m.