Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3384

1 Thursday, 12 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.

7 And good morning to you, doctor. Would you please read aloud the

8 affirmation on the card that is given to you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE PARKER: Do we need the side screens?

15 Good morning, Mr. Saxon. The processes of ensuring that the

16 witness has full protective measures have a delayed us in greeting.

17 Please, if you would continue with the witness.

18 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

19 At this time I would like the assistance of the usher to place

20 this piece of paper with the witness, please.

21 Examination by Mr. Saxon:

22 Q. And, witness, I don't want you to state your true name, but do you

23 see your true name on that piece of paper?

24 A. Yes, I see it.

25 Q. And there's some other information on that piece of paper in front

Page 3385

1 of you. Is that information accurate?

2 A. Yes, the information are accurate.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. SAXON: Could that piece of paper be shown to the -- sorry.

5 If that piece of paper can be shown to the Defence counsel. And,

6 Your Honours, if there's no objection, then I would seek to tender this,

7 please.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon, it will be received under seal.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number P370,

10 marked for identification.

11 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry, I heard marked for identification from the

12 court officer. But I heard it will be received from His Honour and I'm

13 not quite --

14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received as an exhibit under seal.

15 THE REGISTRAR: So this will be exhibit number 370, under seal.

16 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

17 Q. Witness, I'm not going to address you by your true name today.

18 I'm going to address by the pseudonym M-171, or I may say Witness 171, can

19 we agree on that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. And can we also agree, I will try to speak slowly to

22 you and ask you hopefully what will be short and simple answers and can

23 you try to speak slowly as well into the microphone and provide me with

24 reasonably short and simple responses to assist the interpreters. Can we

25 do that?

Page 3386

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, may we move into private session,

3 please.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3387











11 Pages 3387-3403 redacted. Private session.















Page 3404

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Witness 171.

9 A. Good day.

10 Q. My name is Edina Residovic and together with my colleague Guenael

11 Mettraux we appear for Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

12 Before I start asking the questions, Mrs. M-171, I will ask you to

13 pause a bit after I have asked you the question that you should understand

14 in my language and wait until it is interpreted and after that, answer the

15 question that I have asked. I will also pause, wait for the translation

16 of your answer, since the questions and the answers must be interpreted

17 for Their Honours and the other colleagues in the courtroom to be able to

18 know what we are discussing.

19 Did you understood these plea I made to you?

20 A. Yes.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to move

22 into a private session for a while.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 3405

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. In 2001, in Macedonia --

Page 3406

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. In 2001, in Macedonia, there was a conflict between the sabotage

4 terrorist groups and the security forces of the Republic of Macedonia, the

5 army and the police. Are you aware of that fact?

6 A. Yes.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The competent bodies of the Republic of Macedonia have made a

10 decision establishing that the city general hospital in Skopje is the

11 hospital where the Albanians victims of the conflict would be treated. Is

12 that fact correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Apart from the treatment of the Albanian population that was

15 injured in relation to the conflict, you also -- the hospital actually,

16 also continued to carry out its regular task for the civilian population;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes, it is correct.

19 Q. The soldiers of the army of the Republic of Macedonia and the

20 police members who were injured in the conflict were mainly treated in the

21 military hospital in Skopje. Is that fact correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You personally do not know or do you know the reasons that made

24 the competent bodies issue such a decision?

25 A. I suppose it was due to security reasons.

Page 3407

1 Q. When you say "security reasons," could you agree with me if I were

2 to say that those security reasons were mainly protection of patients

3 because the treatment at a single facility of both the persons injured in

4 the conflict, persons in the conflict who belonged to different sides in

5 the conflict could lead to conflicts within the hospitals, between the

6 actual patients or their relatives. Is that generally your opinion when

7 you say "due to security reasons"?

8 A. Yes, this is correct.

9 Q. In your opinion, that decision was sound, reasonable; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask

13 to move into a private session briefly.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3408











11 Page 3408 redacted. Private session.















Page 3409

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. You answered various questions of my colleagues relating to the

5 way patients are usually admitted in the general city hospital in Skopje.

6 Apart from their regular duties, the doctors in the hospital, as you say,

7 are part of duty teams considering the fact that the injuries that the

8 patients who are (redacted) have require for a team of

9 doctors to be present in the hospital at all times; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So the hospital, even prior to the conflict, during the conflict

12 and after the conflict, always has a team of duty doctors who have to be

13 there in the hospital in case of emergencies; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You also said that at that time, the practice, the general

16 practice was for a patient who came to the hospital to have a medical

17 file, a record opened. This is a file that on the cover page has a title

18 the history of illness or the case history; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In this medical record, you write down the basic data of the

21 patient, the anamnesis, information if the patient is referred to further

22 treatment or analysis, laboratory analysis, for example, as well as other

23 decisions that the doctor who admitted the patient deems necessary for the

24 just therapy of the patient to be confirmed. Is this all of the

25 information that is contained in this medical record?

Page 3410

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This medical record that is compiled in the hospital also contains

3 the results of all the analysis that had been ordered or carried out by

4 specialists; that is to say, by laboratory staff; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This record also contains proposed therapy, the way it should be

7 administered to the patient, and in case the patient remains in the

8 hospital, the everyday condition of the patient, it's also recorded in

9 this medical record; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When the patient is discharged, a discharge paper is composed,

12 which also contains a diagnosis and further treatment for that patient.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The doctor that admits the patient, upon receiving the preliminary

15 results of the analysis, he refers the patient further, whether to

16 intensive care or to home treatment; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This procedure is carried out at all times, regardless of whether

19 it is a time of conflict or peace; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This procedure and the way of filling out a medical record goes

22 for every patient, regardless of who that person in question is; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. National, religious, or any other affiliation is not a basis or a

Page 3411

1 reason for any of the information in the medical record --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the last part of

3 the answer, thank you. The question.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. As I was asked to repeat my question, I will.

6 Is it correct that neither national or religious affiliation or

7 any other affiliation of the person received as a patient is not a basis

8 for any information to be filled out in the medical record. The only

9 basis for putting the data in the medical record are only of medical

10 nature; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Considering your long experience as a (redacted)

13 (redacted), could you confirm for us that this is the way how work was

14 carried out in this hospital throughout your professional engagement and

15 that this practice has never changed, even during the conflict; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. To your knowledge, (redacted) and other medical

19 staff treated all patients equally; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct, totally professionally.

21 Q. (redacted)

22 (redacted) otherwise, and you also have never heard any patient to

23 complain about the work of your colleagues; is that correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Would it be fair for me to conclude that in your hospital, in the

Page 3412

1 treatment of patients there was no discrimination. Patients were treated

2 on basis of medical indication and the need to administer them help; is

3 that correct?

4 A. In our hospital, before, during and after the event and nowadays,

5 we work very professionally and the interest is of our main interest at

6 all times [as interpreted].

7 Q. During the conflict in 2001, (redacted), and the hospital

8 you worked in, cooperated with the international Red Cross committee; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it correct that nobody from the ICRC or the Red Cross of the

12 Republic of Macedonia has ever complained about the work of the doctors or

13 the way they treat their patients?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. Is it correct that in 2001 more persons who had sustained injuries

16 in relation to the conflict were brought to your hospital?

17 A. Yes. During that year, during the conflict, more persons were

18 brought in our hospital. The number is quite large, but I don't know the

19 exact number. The majority of them were citizens of Kosovo. Their

20 situation varied from light to serious injuries. Many -- of many of them

21 we saved their lives and they were released from hospital in a very good

22 condition.

23 Q. Some of these persons had injuries sustained by fire-arm but there

24 were also persons who had other types of injuries; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3413

1 Q. When my colleague asked you about the injuries that are recorded

2 in the medical record of the patient, the record that you were shown, you

3 answered, stating the following: That these injuries could be

4 sustained -- excuse me, I will reformulate my question.

5 When answering the question of my learned colleague, the

6 Prosecutor, whether the content of the medical record is correct, and it

7 corresponds to the situation that you saw with that patient, you said,

8 yes, and then you explained why you thought it was correct, what the

9 patient told you about the way he was injured.

10 My question is the following. Did you, before or after admitting

11 these patients that you were asked about, see any other persons who were

12 injured by mechanical instruments during the war?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You will probably agree with me that these injuries could be

15 inflicted also in offering resistance to persons who took part in a given

16 conflict; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When my colleague asked you where this medical record can be

19 found, if I understood you correctly, you said that this file is kept

20 separately in the documentation, scientific documentation unit. Did I

21 understood you correctly?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I would like to clarify this. First of all, tell me, is it

24 correct that the medical record or file of the patient is updated

25 throughout the time he is in the hospital?

Page 3414

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In this record, the doctors put in all the information about the

3 steps they have undertaken in treating this particular patient; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When a patient is discharged from hospital, is it correct that

7 this medical record continues to be kept in your documentation, in case it

8 is necessary for that patient to came later on for visits, for checkups?

9 A. Yes. We keep the records for approximately 15 years and then we

10 destroy them.

11 Q. So the doctor is able to see that documentation only when a

12 certain patient comes -- revisits the hospital and only if it is necessary

13 for that patient to continue a certain therapy or to consult the doctor

14 for the medical treatment; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And if I understand well, only when there is no need anymore for

17 further treatment of a given patient, it is at that time that these

18 documents are put in this research documentation as you said; is this

19 correct?

20 A. The patients are sent to the -- to the room where the research

21 documentation is kept. These documents are sent there when he is

22 discharged from the hospital and when his treatment has ended.

23 Q. These documents, if I can suggest, are not anymore under the

24 control of the doctor but they are under the control of the administration

25 of the hospital; is this correct?

Page 3415

1 A. Yes, this is correct.

2 Q. And may I say that access to this documentation is allowed only to

3 the administration of the hospital, respectively to the medical staff that

4 would ask for such -- for these documents if they need any information in

5 relation to a treatment of a patient; is this correct?

6 A. Yes. But in some cases, access can also be given to the court

7 based on some procedure and if such access is requested by the court.

8 Q. Thank you. This was my following question. Therefore, access to

9 this medical documentation and to this information, the hospital must give

10 such an access also upon the request of a court?

11 A. Yes. And this occurs very often.

12 Q. Moreover, the court can also request for expertise of some

13 illnesses or injuries and you very often appear before a court in the

14 capacity of experts to clarify the seriousness of the illness; is this

15 correct?

16 A. Yes. We very often issue a medical certificate or we compile

17 medical reports upon the request of the court, and also in the (redacted)

18 (redacted).

19 Q. Is it correct, madam M-171, that in case of suspicion that a given

20 illness or injury could be a result of a criminal act, then all the organs

21 and the hospital itself are required to inform the competent judge or

22 investigator?

23 A. Yes. This procedure is conducted regularly, when there are some

24 violent injuries, death from unknown cause, accident, fights, murders and

25 so on.

Page 3416

1 Q. [No interpretation]

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. I didn't get the beginning

3 of the question, please.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [No interpretation]

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel repeat the question because we

6 didn't have the microphone before.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I think I spoke very

8 quickly and I will make the question once again.

9 Q. Therefore, is it correct, Madam M-171, that information on such

10 cases was provided to the Prosecutor or the Judge by the hospital

11 administration, director or deputy director, i.e. the hospital

12 management?

13 A. Yes, it's correct.

14 Q. In the course of the examination the Prosecution has shown you a

15 document which can be found in tab number 6. This is P54, which

16 represents the notes that have been prepared in the city hospital by the

17 investigating judge, Velce Pancevski. Do you recall that when the

18 Prosecutor showed you this document?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Therefore, this demonstrates that the investigating judge was

21 there in the hospital himself and that the director or someone on his

22 behalf gave the judge all the data in relation to the injured persons that

23 were in the hospital. Is this correct?

24 A. Yes. There is usually done immediately after the admittance of a

25 patient.

Page 3417

1 Q. And you said that the description of the injuries that were

2 recorded in these notes of the judge are exactly the same as the one you

3 recall that were sustained by the patient when he was admitted. Is this

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And would you agree with me that since the investigating judge was

7 informed directly by the administration of the hospital on everything that

8 is relevant for the job, for the work of the investigating judge, it was

9 not necessary for you to inform the Prosecutor or the investigating judge

10 about that again. Would this be correct?

11 A. Yes, this would be correct, because with that, the procedure has

12 been completed.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe -- Your Honours, maybe it

14 would be a good time now to make break.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Public. Oh, we are in public.

16 We need to have our first break at this point, and we will resume

17 at 11.00.

18 And the court officer will -- if I could ask the witness to stay

19 where she is for the moment, the court officer will make the physical

20 arrangements for to you leave.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I proceed with

25 the cross-examination, I would like to ask for assistance from the usher

Page 3418

1 to distribute the binders that -- with the documents that I will be using

2 with the witness. We have a sufficient number of copies for the Bench

3 and for the Prosecution and for the witness.

4 Q. Madam M-171, before the break, we were speaking about the access

5 to the medical record to other persons. Do you remember this?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in order to complete my questions in reference to this issue,

8 I'd like to ask you whether it is correct that doctors in the medical

9 record of the patient enter precisely and accurately all the results that

10 they receive from lab tests, from X-rays, or all other specialist tests

11 that are conducted in the hospital?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Neither you nor your colleagues have ever entered in the medical

14 record those results that have not come out from lab test results or from

15 X-rays or other specialist tests; is this correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 1.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to go now to

19 private session, because the name written in the documents could reveal

20 the identity.

21 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ...

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3419











11 Page 3419 redacted. Private session.















Page 3420

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. You had

16 decided this in the past as well, but I had simply forgotten that.

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ...

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Before this Court, Witness 171, testified Mr. Ismail Ramadani. I

20 would like now to ask you to look at the first page which is on the page

21 998 of the transcript, line 23. The witness was shown this medical

22 report. And as you can see, the question was that is a medical report

23 from the general hospital Skopje [In English] on the upper part.

24 [Interpretation] And the answer was, yes, it's here. Now I would

25 like you ask you to turn the next page.

Page 3421

1 I apologise, this document is in tab 4, and this is an excerpt

2 from the testifying of Mr. Ismail Ramadani. Now we are on page 999, on

3 line 16. The question was "[In English] You were admitted on the 13th of

4 August, 2001."

5 The answer was yes "[In English], that's correct."

6 The question was, again in the English, "[In English] mention

7 there that you had a serious fracture of the 2nd to 8th ribs on your left

8 side and fracture of the 7th, 8th and 10th ribs on your right side. My

9 question is: Is the description of your injuries correct?"

10 [Interpretation] The answer was: "You meant if it is correct, no,

11 I wouldn't say so. I had more ribs that were broken and here it is

12 mentioned only a few."

13 [Interpretation] My question, Madam 171, is, again, whether in

14 this medical report -- whether this medical report in an objective way

15 points out all the injuries that were sustained by this patient?

16 A. Yes, all the injuries are recorded accurately, and there are also

17 X-rays that confirm this.

18 Q. Therefore, the statement of this witness on the way the injuries

19 were recorded, in your opinion, is not correct?

20 A. Yes, the statement is not correct, is untrue.

21 Q. Now, I would like to ask you to look at the page 1026. This is

22 the same witness, and on line 19, the question says: "[In English] You

23 were rendered adequate medical care; is that correct?"

24 [Interpretation] Answer says: "[In English] Macedonian forces ill

25 treat us, even at the hospital. They made us take off our civilian

Page 3422

1 clothes and they put the pyjama on us. They ill treated us and then after

2 that they sent us to the room."

3 [Interpretation] The question says: "[In English] Offered you

4 appropriate medical care; is that correct?"

5 [Interpretation] The answer: "[In English] The doctors gave us

6 only treatment and then tied our wounds, the wounds that we had on our

7 heads and faces, only that, nothing else."

8 [Interpretation] Question says: "[In English] That my learned

9 colleague has shown you it is stated that you were administered all

10 necessary medication, then this would not be correct, correctly written;

11 is that correct?"

12 [Interpretation] This is not correct. I told here a little bit

13 before they only gave us IV treatment, two bottles of medication and then

14 the following day, on the 13th of August, a new bottle of IV medication.

15 [Interpretation] "I don't know what IV medication means. "[In

16 English] [Previous translation continues] ... For, they gave us a

17 treatment, applied a cream on our wounds, and one of the doctors said that

18 you can't feel immediately, so you need several application on this

19 cream."

20 [Interpretation] Could you tell me, please, Mrs. M-171, in your

21 deep conviction and from what you saw from the medical documentation is it

22 correct that each of the patients admitted were administered the therapy

23 that corresponded to their situation and their injuries?

24 A. Yes. And I can explain it. First, at the admission of the

25 patients, the usual protocol for admission of patients in our hospital was

Page 3423

1 followed, that is, anamnesis was taken, an examination was conducted, they

2 were sent to diagnostic procedure, the laboratory tests were taken and

3 X-rays were made. After that, they were again admitted in the doctor's

4 office and records were made of the admission. The patients were admitted

5 as the documents previously shown to us stated. They were received in the

6 shock ward. That is near the intensive care but this is not a room where

7 the severely injured patients are admitted. It is rather a room where

8 they are taken for observation and depending on their status, health

9 status, they are further transferred to other wards.

10 That shock room, shock ward, usually has anaesthesiologists

11 working in it and these patients as well as any patients before the

12 conflict, during the conflict, or after the conflict are administered

13 therapy and in the medical history that was shown to me before now, I saw

14 the note written by an anaesthesiologist where the standard therapy for

15 such type of injuries was administered. It is correct that, as the

16 patient said, it is IV therapy that is usually administered in such type

17 of injuries, then serum anti-tetanus, because there were wounds that were

18 still not treated, then analgetics and antibiotics, and nothing further is

19 administered to any patient with such or similar injuries. This is it

20 standard therapy and we have followed certain medical protocols.

21 Furthermore, since the patient had good general health status, he

22 was transferred to the trauma ward where the therapy continued. With

23 regards to the treatment of the wounds. They were standard. As the

24 standard procedure is an ointment for standard treatment was administered

25 and they were then bandaged or they were left for an open treatment, then

Page 3424

1 again ointment was put on them.

2 Q. So thank you very much, which means that the treatment

3 corresponded to the status of the injuries; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, yes, that's correct, exactly.

5 Q. And such treatment would be administered regardless of the time

6 and regardless of the person of the patient whenever the injuries would be

7 of that nature. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct. There is no difference.

9 Q. Could you please tell me when the patient is sent to intensive

10 care, is it correct that it is medical staff admitting him there?

11 A. Yes, medical staff employed in the hospital.

12 Q. Medical staff give them that clothes that they will wear during

13 their stay in the hospital; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. They are undressed at admission and they

15 wear with the standard pyjamas, as it was done with these patients.

16 Q. And there was no other party, third party in the hospital other

17 than medical staff could treat the patients, provide them medical care.

18 It is only the medical staff that does that. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct. We have janitors there and we have security

20 so no one else could climb up to the shock ward and the intensive care

21 ward.

22 Q. Considering that you were at the hospital at that time, is it

23 correct that you did not see any person, and particularly not policemen,

24 ill treating the patients admit in any way?

25 A. This is not the case. Such case has never happened at our

Page 3425

1 facility, not only with regards to these patients. It had never happened

2 before or after that.

3 Q. Could you agree with me, Mrs. M-171, that the allegations made by

4 the witness before this Court about the ill-treatment in the hospital and

5 the medical treatment that they were rendered are simply inaccurate?

6 A. The allegations of the witness are not accurate.

7 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you now to look in the same tab,

8 the page number 1.073.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 1.083.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. The witness, Osman Ramadani, who has testified before this Court,

12 in line 21 to 25 on that page, and then it continues for further two lines

13 on the next page, has testified in the following way.

14 The question was: "[In English] Is it correct that you were given

15 an appropriate medical assistance, you been operated and then you remain

16 in the hospital until you recovered?"

17 [Interpretation] And the answer was: "[In English] That's not

18 correct. They did what they wanted with me. I witnessed torture there as

19 well. I was hit there too. I don't know who hit me. I was hit and

20 beaten up in the hospital as well. They kept me there as long as they

21 wanted, two or three days. There were no rules."

22 [Interpretation] Considering your previous answer, could you tell

23 me whether this statement of this witness about the treatment received in

24 the hospital is simply inaccurate?

25 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.

Page 3426

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is an absolute lie.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

3 MR. SAXON: Unless it can be established that this witness treated

4 Mr. Osman Ramadani and/or was with Mr. Osman Ramadani during the entire

5 time that Mr. Ramadani was in the hospital, I'm not sure how this witness

6 can answer that question.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, in some respects that may well be

8 correct. (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3427

1 (redacted)

2 I don't think you really need to spend the time going through each

3 (redacted), if you can get were her a general assurance.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

5 And in accordance with your instruction (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted) So I kindly ask that it is redacted from

8 the transcript.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I've just attended to that.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. I would like to ask to you look at the document in tab 2, P22, and

12 considering that the name of the protected witness is mentioned, this

13 document should not be displayed to the general public.

14 Mrs. M-171, you can recognise from this document as well that you

15 were the person who admitted this patient; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, is it correct that this patient as well was treated in

18 the same way? According to the procedure, medical treatment was ordered

19 and medical care was given, such as his medical status required?

20 A. Yes, it is correct.

21 Q. If this witness has asserted before this Court that he was beaten

22 not only by the policemen but also by the nurses and doctors, what would

23 you say to such testimony?

24 A. This is a falsity.

25 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab number

Page 3428

1 16, and before that, I would like to ask you the following: In your

2 hospital, apart from doctors and medical staff, are there also medical

3 staff and doctors who are not Macedonians by ethnicity?

4 A. Yes. There are doctors from all ethnicities.

5 Q. Is it correct that the situation was such in 2001 as well?

6 A. Yes, it is correct.

7 Q. And the situation is such even today?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. Has any of your Albanian colleagues told you at any time during

10 2001 that they were witnesses or that they have heard complaints about

11 ill-treatment of the persons brought from Ljuboten?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I would like to ask you now --

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It is in tab 6 and not 16, as the

15 transcript reads.

16 Q. Mrs. M-171, you see now a letter in the upper left-hand corner.

17 It states it is a letter sent by the public health institution, specialist

18 surgery hospital Sv. Naum Ohridski. That is 65 ter 1D453, Macedonian

19 pages 1D4187, while the English page is 1D4188.

20 Can you see in the upper left corner the name and the address of

21 the hospital issuing the document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That is the hospital where you are employed?

24 A. Yes, this is correct.

25 Q. This document is signed by Dr. Nikola Gruev; is that correct?

Page 3429

1 A. Yes.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the counsel,

3 please.

4 Could the counsel please repeat the entire question. We haven't

5 heard the first part of it.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have been warned to repeat my

7 question.

8 Q. In the explanation, can you see that this was a person who had

9 been a director between 2000 and 2003. Is that the capacity of a director

10 of the clinic that you mentioned when answered the questions of the

11 Prosecutor?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In this letter, Dr. Nikola Gruev answers to the request of the

14 defence in relation to some issues of interest (redacted)

15 (redacted). And among other things it states: "The specialist surgery

16 hospital is an institution with 45 years of experience in treating

17 surgical diseases. Specialist surgery hospital is a teaching centre for

18 the Skopje medical faculty. Specialist surgery hospital personnel are of

19 mixed ethnicity as well as the -- and the equipment can provide modern

20 surgical treatment responding to urgent surgical needs and also elective

21 surgery." It further states, "The admittance and treatment of patients,

22 in the specialist surgery hospital has been solely based on their medical

23 requirements, regardless of the ethnic or religious affiliation of the

24 patient.

25 "During the armed conflict in the Republic of Macedonia in 2001,

Page 3430

1 the aforementioned principles were fully respected in the operation of the

2 clinic. It can be seen also from the number of patients hospitalised or

3 treated from an outpatient surgery, in 2001 the admission and treatment of

4 all patients was performed solely on the basis of the medical symptoms for

5 treatment and surgery regardless of the ethnic or religious affiliations.

6 "The quality and performance of the tasks by the personnel in that

7 clinic was observed by the International Red Cross and other domestic and

8 foreign organisations that have visited the specialist surgery hospital.

9 During this time, in 2001, we had not -- I as a director of the clinic had

10 not received any complaints from individuals or national legal entities or

11 their representatives or other institutions or organisations in relation

12 to the treatment, medical or otherwise, of patients hospitalised in 2001."

13 So my question is, Mrs. M-171, do you recognise this document as a

14 document issued by your hospital?

15 A. This is a document I see for the first time. But because it has

16 the official seal and the signature of the former director, that is

17 (redacted).

18 Q. To the best of your recollection and the practice in this

19 hospital, tell me whether the facts noted in this document are accurate.

20 A. Facts noted in this document are absolutely correct.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, line 48, 13, "to the

22 best of your knowledge," instead of "to the best of your recollection."

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would seek to tender this

24 document into evidence.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

Page 3431

1 MR. SAXON: Really, a comment about procedure, although this is

2 being tendered as a document from the hospital or a letter from Dr. Nikola

3 Gruev, in many ways it is quite similar to a statement, a witness

4 statement. The contents have been read into the record. I believe it was

5 the practice established by the Chamber early on that certainly witness

6 statements used during cross-examination would not be admitted, and I'm

7 wondering whether it is necessary to admit this.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE PARKER: We agree with Mr. Saxon, Ms. Residovic. You -- the

10 essence of what you want from this document is clearly now included in the

11 transcript. Thank you.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 7.

14 That is 65 ter 1D454. 1D454, Macedonian page is 1D4189, and the English

15 is 1D4190.

16 Mrs. M-171, can you see again in the upper left corner the name of

17 your hospital and the date this document was issued, 14th of April, 2001?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You see the signature and the name of the acting director of the

20 hospital, Mr. Viktor Kamilovski. Is that so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. This document is a classical document issued by the hospital; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And as you can see from the data about the hospital and the date

Page 3432

1 of issuance, this document was addressed to Mr. Dragan Godzo upon his

2 request as a member of the defence team of Mr. Ljube Boskoski. It cannot

3 be read from the document, but the Court is aware that he is a member of

4 the Defence team.

5 Subject is report and the document reads follows: "The specialist

6 surgery hospital Sv. Naum Ohridski, Skopje, a legal successor of the city

7 general hospital clinical surgery hospital Sv. Naum Ohridski, Skopje,

8 informs you about the following. The patients at the hospital are treated

9 solely based on the medical indications regardless of the national ethnic

10 or religious affiliation. There are no special statistics kept in the

11 hospital about the number of patients according to their ethnic

12 affiliation. If you would require such data for 2001 and 2006, we would

13 need to -- for such data to be extracted from the medical records of all

14 patients who were treated in the aforementioned period. Personnel in the

15 hospital belongs to different ethnic and religious groups.

16 "In 2006, out of the total of 340 employees, 306 were Macedonians,

17 while there were 34 members of other ethnic groups. In 2001, out of a

18 total of 237 Macedonians, 220 are Macedonians while there are 17 members

19 of other ethnic communities. All the employees in the hospital carry out

20 their duties in full, day shift, night shift, duty shifts, without any

21 influence on that from their ethnic or religious affiliation."

22 First of all, I would like to ask you, Mrs. M-171, are the data in

23 this document accurate regarding the facts personally known to you as an

24 employee of the hospital?

25 A. I suppose they are accurate, and that the data were derived from

Page 3433

1 the files of the personnel service, so they must be accurate.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, although the

3 contents of the document and the answer of the witness were recorded in

4 the transcript, considering that this is an official document of the

5 hospital, I would seek to tender it into evidence officially.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, do you see any difference?

7 MR. SAXON: Prosecution does not see any significant difference

8 between the form of this document and the previous document, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber, Ms. Residovic, is concerned to keep

10 unnecessary documents out of the written record, which is already a very

11 large written record, because we have to be aware of all of them at the

12 end of the trial. Where, in accordance with the standard practice of this

13 Tribunal, in cross-examination a document is referred to and the material

14 parts of it are reflected in the transcript, it is really unnecessary for

15 any purpose that the document also be included as an exhibit, because we

16 have in the transcript its material parts recorded and we have the

17 witness's reaction to the contents of the document.

18 I mention that just to remind you why it is for the last document

19 and now for this document we would take the view that it is really

20 unnecessary for this document to become an actual exhibit.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fully understand

22 the reasons that you explain. However, the Defence thinks that these are

23 official documents of the hospital that this witness confirmed, and these

24 documents prove an absolutely different situation in the hospital compared

25 to the situation presented by the witnesses we've heard. Considering the

Page 3434

1 fact that this witness confirmed this different situation, I believe that

2 these official documents would help the Trial Chamber in giving weight to

3 the statements and testimonies of witnesses.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We have given our ruling. We do not

5 see that the document, in addition to the transcripts which reveals

6 that -- the nature of the document and its content, is of any value.

7 Thank you.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. Now I would kindly ask you to answer to some questions that I have

10 and that I think you can answer considering your professional experience

11 as a surgeon.

12 First of all, please tell me is it correct that in your work you

13 have come across injuries in the area of the abdomen and that were

14 inflicted by fire-arms?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you agree with me that in general, these injuries are not

17 deadly, but are serious and can lead to death unless medical treatment is

18 administered?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. So in case the adequate medical treatment is not administered, the

21 patient, due to bleeding will die after a given period of time?

22 A. Yes.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

25 Q. Except for injuries of the aorta, this period through which the

Page 3435

1 person who has sustained injuries to the abdomen, this person can live up

2 to several hours to several days?

3 A. Yes. If a blood vessel, which in the case of abdomen injuries is

4 the aorta, it can lead to death, if there is other injuries, when we speak

5 about intestines then the survival can be of several days and usually they

6 could not die out of haemorrhaging but due to infection.

7 Q. Now I'd like to ask you to look at the document in tab 10. This

8 is exhibit 1D78.

9 So exhibit 1D78 represents the autopsy protocol that was done on

10 April 9, 2003. Do you see that?

11 A. You refer to the first page?

12 Q. Yes, to the first page.

13 A. Yes, I can see it.

14 Q. The autopsy protocol is composed -- is prepared either immediately

15 after the death of the patient from which the hospital the court has

16 request an autopsy or after the exhumation or due to other medical or

17 legal reasons. Would this be an accurate description of the time when an

18 autopsy is conducted?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. First let me tell you, Madam 171, that before this Court we had

21 Dr. Zlatko Jakovski who testified and in the introduction of this autopsy

22 protocol he is one of the autopsy performers of the given patient, and I

23 will not ask any questions concerning the autopsy protocol because

24 everything that was relevant in reference to this issue, there was a

25 witness that testified.

Page 3436

1 However, I would like to ask to you look at the last page of this

2 protocol. This is page 5 of the Macedonian version, this is N00-4210 and

3 in the English version is also -- the English version is on page 3. We

4 have now these versions on the screen as well.

5 In the last paragraph, as you can see, changes have been

6 established which were caused by a projectile from a fire-arm in the lower

7 left third of the stomach, and the direction of this projectile has been

8 established as well.

9 Do you agree with me, M-171, that these would be an injury of the

10 stomach with a fire-arm?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you to look at the pictures that are in tab

13 11, Exhibit 1D4. Then picture in tab 12. This is Exhibit P9. And the

14 picture in tab 13, 65 ter 608, 05016266.

15 We will wait for one of those pictures to appear on the screen. I

16 would like to ask the secretary to display -- the registry, I'm sorry, to

17 display one of the pictures, 1D4 and P --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is asking for the last number,

19 please.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] P9.

21 Q. The first -- so this one is 1D4, and please could you show the

22 Exhibit P9 at the same time as well. Thank you.

23 Now we see also P9.

24 My question, Mrs. M-171, is whether what you see in these pictures

25 is a typical fire-arm injury on the stomach which has also been described

Page 3437

1 in the autopsy protocol?

2 A. Yes, this is a typical fire-arm injury on the lower part -- left

3 part of the stomach.

4 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

6 MR. SAXON: My concern at least in this photograph the wound

7 itself is covered with a bandage, and I don't understand how this witness

8 can even make a comment as to what kind of typical injury or what kind of

9 injury it is if she was not examined the body herself.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the witness has answered the question,

11 Mr. Saxon. That may be a matter for re-examination.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness -- the

13 witness also saw the picture in the binder 69 ter P608 0501-6266.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, we've ruled in your favour. Carry

15 on.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. Mrs. M-171, having in mind your professional knowledge,

18 experience -- and experience, in these kind of wounds would this be a

19 wound that -- in which death could occur after several hours because of

20 haemorrhage or possible infection?

21 A. If we look at the picture where there is no bandage, 608, and if

22 we look from the front part of the stomach, (redacted)

23 (redacted), however, and if we look at the picture 194 from the back, in

24 accordance with my experience, and I will repeat I'm not a forensic, it is

25 obvious that this is a fire-arm wound from the front to the rear part, to

Page 3438

1 behind. Since the projectile moved towards that direction this would

2 probably have caused an injury to the colon on the colon descendent on the

3 left side or to those accompanying tissues that are -- that cover the

4 colon. Therefore, the -- there might have been a haemorrhage but these

5 haemorrhage would not have brought -- led to -- to a quick death. It

6 should have taken several hours, if this was the point of your question.

7 Q. Thank you. You have answered in accordance with your experience

8 and knowledge, and now I will show you a few documents or statements that

9 are related to the time of the death of the person in question. I would

10 only like to ask you to give me your answer to my questions. Before this

11 Court the witness Elmaz Jusufi testified. This is on the transcript page

12 418. This document is in tab 14 and to the question of the Presiding

13 Judge saying "[In English] That was after he had been shot, was it?"

14 [Interpretation] The answer was: "[In English] He asked for water

15 we couldn't provide him water and then he died."

16 [Interpretation] To the question: [In English] [Previous

17 translation continues] ... "in the photograph a bandage has been put

18 around his wounds, around his stomach. Do you know who put the bandage

19 on?"

20 [Interpretation] The answer of the witness was: "[In English]

21 Because there was a lot of blood coming out of the wound. I tied the

22 belly with a piece of sheet."

23 [Interpretation] Presiding Judge: "[In English] You did that, was

24 your son still alive or had he died by then?"?

25 [Interpretation] [No interpretation] "[In English] He died at the

Page 3439

1 moment."

2 In tab 15, the transcript line 15 the name of Elmaz is stated and

3 it should say Xhevdet. The witness Elmaz Jusufi on page 588 of the

4 transcript to the question saying "[In English] wounding your son died."

5 [Interpretation] Answer: "I can't give you -- maybe after half an

6 hour or 40 minutes, 25 minutes, I wouldn't be able to say. I knew it was

7 -- it wasn't long after he was wounded, not more than, let's say, 40

8 minutes."

9 [Interpretation] Now I'd like to ask you to look at the document

10 in binder -- I'm sorry, it is not in your binder but I would like to show

11 you a document 65 ter 1D15, 1D0196, page -- and I would like for this

12 document not to be shown to the public, because it is not excluded for

13 this person to appear as a witness and he might request protective

14 measures.

15 65 ter 1D15. 1D0196 is the first page.

16 Mrs. M-171, the witness on this page has given a statement to the

17 Prosecutor's investigator on the 29th of September, 2004. Now I'd like

18 you to go to page 1D0198. This is the same 65 ter. The page is 65 ter

19 1D15 and the page is 1D0198.

20 Item 5 of this statement, the third sentence says: "[In English]

21 Because I felt safer there since the ground floor of my house is not

22 visible from the road. After 9.00, I was out in the yard of my house and

23 I could see the yard of my nephew's house. I was on the same level as

24 mine. I called by mobile phone my relative Rami Jusufi to check how they

25 are doing because I knew that his father is an invalid and his mother was

Page 3440

1 also in the house. He asked me if I could help him because he was

2 wounded. He told me that I should be careful if I would enter his house,

3 saying they are all in the garage of my house."

4 [Interpretation] The -- "[In English] Saw him again after

5 [interpretation] ultimate sentence says: "[In English] How he is, he said

6 he was not feeling good at all and hung up the phone."

7 [Interpretation] Item 9 of the same page. Could you please scroll

8 down. In the middle, the sentence starts with: "[In English] 11,

9 meanwhile I call my relative Rami Jusufi for the third time on the phone

10 and ask him where his wife and children were. He told me that they are

11 in his sister's house. The name of his sister is Mybera."

12 [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask you to look at the

13 document 65 ter 1D12. The document is 1D0134.

14 I would also like to ask you again not to show to the public this

15 page because the person mentioned is on the witness list and might request

16 protective measures.

17 The person that you see on the screen gave a statement to the

18 Prosecutor of this Tribunal on the 30th of August, 2001 and on 1st of

19 September, 2001. And he spoke about the death of Rami Jusufi. Now I

20 would like to ask registry to show page one of this statement, which is

21 1D -- page 3 of the statement number 1D0136.

22 The last paragraph of this page, the interviewed person said the

23 following: "[In English] In contact with the villagers by phone. I got

24 information about five killed people, one of them six years old. One of

25 the killed was called Rami Jusufi, and his father whose name I don't

Page 3441

1 recall told me about the killing of Rami. Some 50 paramilitaries had come

2 to the yard of his house and they had killed Rami by shooting him in the

3 stomach. Rami himself called to our office that they asking for help and

4 I tried to encourage him, saying that we would try to send some first aid

5 as soon as possible. However, this was impossible."

6 [Interpretation] Please turn the next page.

7 "[In English] And he died early in the evening."

8 [Interpretation] My question to you, (redacted) I apologise.

9 Could this word please be redacted from the transcript.

10 Mrs. M-171, you heard the statements of two witnesses who say that

11 the death of Rami Jusufi occurred immediately or within 40 minutes maximum

12 and two other persons saying that Rami Jusufi was alive for few more hours

13 and the last witness says that he died earlier in the evening.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted), could you please tell me whether it

16 was -- whether it is true that this person had lived for a longer period

17 of time, as these two persons say, or do you think that death has occurred

18 immediately, as the two other witnesses say?

19 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

21 MR. SAXON: It seems to the Prosecution that this question is

22 asking this witness to speculate, and I use the word "speculate" perhaps

23 as an understatement. This witness did not view the body, did not view

24 the injured person, and I don't see how this could be helpful to the Trial

25 Chamber.

Page 3442

1 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has

3 already responded by the type of wound when she saw the photographs and

4 she gave her opinion. She is -- she can give such an opinion as an expert

5 about the time of the death of Rami Jusufi. This is an almost identical

6 question, which is now related to the different times conveyed by

7 different witnesses. I do not see any reason why she could -- cannot

8 reply to this question. This is not a speculation. This is an expert

9 opinion and this is something the Court will have to decide upon.

10 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, it seems to the Prosecution that if any

11 witness should have received this question it was the witness Dr. Jakovski

12 who performed the autopsy on this particular victim.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, the Chamber is persuaded that it is

14 not at all fair to the witness nor could any answer be persuasive to the

15 Chamber given that the witness did not examine and did not treat the

16 patient, and we're in the realm of conjecture as to the nature of the

17 wounds and their possible effect upon the duration that life would

18 continue after the wound.

19 So we would not allow this question. Thank you.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have completed my

21 cross-examination of this witness.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.

23 Mr. Apostolski.

24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of

25 Johan Tarculovski has no questions for this witness.

Page 3443

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.

2 Mr. Saxon.

3 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:


5 Q. Perhaps, Witness 171 --

6 MR. SAXON: Just so that I'm certain, Your Honour, are we now in

7 public session?


9 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

10 Q. Witness 171, could you please return to what was tab 13 in the

11 binder provided you by my colleague. It's a photograph and this is

12 Prosecution 65 ter 608. If that could be called up on our screen as well.

13 If that could be blown up on the screen a bit, please.

14 My colleague showed you this photograph a short time ago and asked

15 you a few questions about it and you talked a bit about the nature of the

16 wound, and possible consequences of this wound and bleeding, things like

17 that. Do you recall that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you please look up to the area around the head of this body,

20 please. If you take a look to what is the right side of the body's mouth,

21 do you see what appears to be some blood on the right side of mouth on the

22 cheek, coming out of the mouth to the cheek. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, there is something red there. I suppose it is blood.

24 Q. And then could you please look on the blanket that is next to the

25 right side of the face, you see what appears to be some reddish material.

Page 3444

1 It appears to be blood. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Help us, please, with this. Why would a person who receives a

4 bullet wound like this in the abdomen or the stomach, why would this

5 person also bleed from the mouth?

6 A. Can I answer your question now?

7 Q. Yes, please.

8 A. If a patient is injured in the stomach, if the organ stomach is

9 injured then they could vomit blood. But if they're injured in the lower

10 part of the abdomen, then they would not vomit blood. So this vomiting

11 could be a consequence of some other injury in the upper part of the body,

12 in the mouth, the tongue, the teeth. Can you understand me? So the upper

13 part of the abdomen, if that is injured, especially in the stomach is

14 injured that could result there vomiting blood. Lower part of the abdomen

15 injury would not cause vomiting blood.

16 Q. You refer to vomiting blood.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it possible that bleeding from the mouth is caused by internal

19 bleeding?

20 A. It is like this. It can occur only if there is an injury of the

21 intestines. In the upper part, it consists of the stomach and the

22 duodenum and below that are the intestines, so it would be the position of

23 the injury. This injury shown here in the photograph could not cause

24 vomiting of blood.

25 So an injury in the lower part of the abdomen, the injury of the

Page 3445

1 lower intestines and internal bleeding, if a large blood vessel is

2 injured, it is not connected to the lower intestines, so it could go out

3 of the stomach or duodenum upwards, through the mouth. So it could be

4 either an injury to the gastro-intestinal section which does not

5 correspond to the actual position of this injury - I don't know what the

6 actual post-mortem findings were - or it could only correspond to, the

7 other possibility is it could correspond to an injury in the mouth or

8 somewhere there. Because if there is a free discharge of blood inside the

9 stomach it would remain -- in the abdomen, it would remain there. It

10 would not go out through the mouth.

11 THE INTERPRETER: And if the witness could be asked to speak

12 slower then giving such expert testimony.

13 Q. If you could speak just a little bit slower, witness, then that

14 would be helpful.

15 Well, regardless of the cause of the bleeding of the mouth, of the

16 bleeding from the mouth, would bleeding from the mouth also contribute to

17 the death of the person?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Why not?

20 A. If your question is as follows. If the mouth is injured, the

21 interior of the mouth?

22 Q. No. If a person receives a gunshot wound that causes bleeding,

23 people die from loss of blood; is that correct?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. So if some of that loss of blood comes from the mouth, for

Page 3446

1 whatever reason, would that loss of blood from the mouth also contribute

2 to the death of the person?

3 A. So since we're discussing injuries from fire-arms, if there is a

4 fire-arm injury to the stomach, and if the bleeding comes from the stomach

5 then it is possible for the blood to be discharged through the mouth and

6 also in the abdomen cavity, only when the stomach is injured.

7 Q. You have said that several times. That's very clear. My question

8 was something different, very simple question.

9 If someone bleeds from the mouth as well as other parts of their

10 body, would the bleeding from the mouth also contribute to death. That's

11 all. Just yes or no.

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. SAXON: Can we call up, please, what was shown to the witness

14 as 65 ter 1D454, please. This was tab 7 of the Defence binder.

15 Q. This is, Witness, the report by Dr. Viktor Kamilovski dated the

16 14th of April, 2007. I want to explore one piece of this with you,

17 please.

18 Towards the bottom of the report it says the following. Actually,

19 let me go a bit more slowly.

20 Approximately, Witness, approximately in 2001 what percentage of

21 the total population of Macedonia were ethnic Macedonians, approximately?

22 A. Around 20 per cent.

23 Q. I'm sorry, maybe my question wasn't clear. I asked you what the

24 percentage of ethnic Macedonians, persons who were ethnically Macedonian,

25 what percentage would they be, would have been in 2001?

Page 3447

1 A. Those who live in Macedonia?

2 Q. No, I'm sorry. My question isn't clear so I'm going to try to ask

3 it in a simpler way.

4 Take a look at the line at the bottom here. It talks about out of

5 237 employees, 17 of them were members of ethnic minority groups. Do you

6 see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In Macedonia in 2001, approximately what percentage of the

9 population were made up of ethnic minority groups?

10 A. If you're referring to the Albanian, I know that they were

11 approximately around 20 per cent.

12 Q. And there are of course persons of Roma ethnicity, persons of

13 Turkish ethnicity living in Macedonia as well, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would it be fair to say that they would add a few more percentage

16 points to the group of ethnic minorities?

17 A. Yes, of course.

18 Q. All right. Well, if we work on the assumption that

19 approximately -- there were approximately 23 per cent the population of

20 Macedonia at that time were ethnic minorities, ethnic Albanians, Romas,

21 Turks et cetera, you see in this line it says the employees of the

22 hospital in 2001, 220 were Macedonian while the remaining 17 were members

23 of ethnic minority groups. Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can we agree that 17 out of 237 is about seven per cent?

Page 3448

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And so the remainder, the 220 ethnic Macedonian employees that

3 would then, of course, be 93 per cent.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you think that ethnic minorities were well-represented at

6 Skopje city hospital in 2001 amongst the employees and staff?

7 A. I think they were well-represented.

8 Q. Okay.

9 MR. SAXON: Can we also see Prosecution Exhibit 192, please.

10 Q. This is at tab 1, Witness 171, of your binder, the Defence binder.

11 MR. SAXON: Is it not coming up on e-court? All right. I hope

12 all the parties have a hard copy in front of them. I'll work with the

13 hard copies for now. There it is.

14 I apologise for moving my head.

15 Q. My colleague, Witness 171, asked you some questions about this

16 medical report. It is a report about Ismail Ramadani. And she asked you

17 a question -- she asked you whether -- whether anything had been -- any

18 information from the medical records for Mr. Ramadani had been concealed

19 in this medical report and you responded no. Do you recall that?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Do you see anywhere in this medical report where it says, "hit by

22 the police"?

23 A. Just a moment, please.

24 It is not written here.

25 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, can we move into the private session,

Page 3449

1 briefly, please.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3450

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

Page 3451

1 JUDGE PARKER: May I indicate to you that that concludes the

2 questions that will be asked of you. The Chamber is very grateful that

3 you have been able to come to The Hague and for the assistance that you've

4 been able to give to us. We thank you very much for that, and of course

5 you may now return at a convenient time to your home and your work.

6 So thank you indeed.

7 We will adjourn now, and the court officer will then make

8 arrangements.

9 Did I interrupt you? You were about to saying something.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to thank you as well. And I

11 was glad if I was able to assist the Court.

12 JUDGE PARKER: We are grateful. Thank you.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner, you call the next witness.

18 MR. NEUNER: The witness was already examined in chief and my

19 learned colleague has started already his cross-examination.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 In those circumstances, may we welcome you back and remind you

22 that the affirmation made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.

23 Mr. Mettraux.

24 WITNESS: ISNI ALI [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 3452

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux: [Continued]

2 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ali.

4 You will recall that when we left off a few weeks ago I was asking

5 you about the whereabouts of your brother, Vehap, on Friday, the 10th. Do

6 you recall that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in answer to my question, you explained that Vehap was at

9 home. Do you recall that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And further in your testimony, you explained this. On Friday,

12 when Erxhan was killed when I was informed at my uncle's house by phone, I

13 went at my home, I found Vehap there at my father's house. This is

14 transcript 2034.

15 So your evidence, sir, at the time was that Vehap on Friday, the

16 10th, was at your father's house; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that correct that Vehap had a house of his own. He did not

19 live in the same house as his father Xhavit, there were two separate

20 houses. Is that correct?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Well, you have answered no. Perhaps I should ask the question

23 better so that it can be clarified. Is that correct that Vehap had a

24 house of his own in which he lived with his family?

25 A. Yes, he lived with his family. With the father and the whole

Page 3453

1 family and myself.

2 Q. But is that correct that Xhavit, your father, had a house of his

3 own?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In answer to a question that I asked you a few weeks ago about the

6 people who had helped burying the body of your son, Erxhan, you answered

7 that there was Fazil who is now dead, your uncle Avdil and yourself. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. So that if someone were to claim that he and two other people but

11 not yourself buried your son, that would be incorrect, right?

12 A. This is not correct.

13 Q. And if the person who said that was your father Xhavit, he would

14 be wrong; is that correct?

15 A. If he said that, he was wrong. We were together with my father,

16 with my uncles, with Fazil at home when we buried my son.

17 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown what is 1D193.

18 It has an ERN 1D002173. And in the Macedonian it would be 1D002181.

19 Q. Mr. Ali, what I wish to show you is again the statement of your

20 father, Xhavit Ali, taken by the Office of the Prosecutor on the 4th of

21 October of 2004. And I will ask the registry to move to page 3 of that

22 document. That would be 1D002175 in the English, and 2183 in the

23 Macedonian.

24 And if the registry could please focus on paragraph 9 of that

25 page.

Page 3454

1 Sir, I will read out to you what your father Xhavit said to the

2 Office of the Prosecution, paragraph 9 of his statement: "On Friday,

3 Saturday, until Sunday at 18 hours nobody dared to leave the basement of

4 my house. Therefore we did not have any idea what was going on in the

5 village. At about 1730, my brother's son Erhan Ali came to the basement

6 carrying the dead body of Erxhan Ali. He was my grandson and Isni's son.

7 The face was missing, his right hand was missing and there was hole in the

8 right side of the ribs. Saturday was very quiet and in the evening we

9 went out of the basement and buried the body of Erxhan in the yard of my

10 house with Fasliu and Haki Rexhepi."

11 Would you agree, sir, that this version given by your father is

12 significantly different from yours?

13 A. On Saturday, we buried Erxhan together in the afternoon. I don't

14 know the exact hour. We were all there, my brother, my father, my uncles,

15 Fasliu, cousins, we buried him and the shootings continued and we stayed

16 in the basement until the next day at 6.00 p.m.

17 Q. Would you agree that your father makes no mention of your presence

18 during that event; is that correct?

19 A. No, that's not correct. I was there.

20 Q. And when you were asked a few weeks ago who was present during the

21 burial, you did not mention your father; is that correct?

22 A. That's not correct. We were all together, the whole family at

23 home. The uncles, the father, the brother. We were all there.

24 Q. Sir, going back to the Friday, the 10th of August, you explained

25 that at the time the -- when the shelling started you went to Avdil's

Page 3455

1 house and you found Avdil in that house. Do you recall saying that?

2 A. Yes. Avdil was there Qamil Rexhepi was there and some -- some

3 neighbours there were piling tobacco in the basement.

4 Q. And you recall that this would be at around 4.00 or 5.00 in the

5 afternoon, would that be correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that's approximately the time when your son Erxhan was killed;

8 is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Isn't that a fact, sir, that at the time when Erxhan was killed

11 Avdil was not at his house but at the school in the village. Isn't that

12 correct?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Isn't that correct that at that time there was a meeting between

15 village leaders and a number of other individuals taking place in the

16 school. Isn't that correct?

17 A. No, that's not correct.

18 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown 1D92. It is

19 1D001296. And I believe there is no Macedonian version of that document.

20 Q. Mr. Ali, the document which I would wish to show to you an is OTP

21 statement of Mr. Kenan Saliu or Salievski. And first I should ask you do

22 you know who Mr. Saliu or Salievski is?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know a Mr. Kenan Saliu living in Ljuboten?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3456

1 Q. And is he also known sometimes as Salievski, Kenan Salievski?

2 A. I don't know his last name. Kenan, yes, I know, he is a

3 co-villager.

4 Q. If we could turn to page number 3 of Mr. Saliu's statement it is

5 at 1D001298. And if the registry could focus on the middle of the page.

6 There's a paragraph starting with the word: "The witness was standing."

7 Mr. Ali, since there is no version in Albanian or Macedonian I

8 will read the evidence to you. This is the evidence of Kenan Saliu. It

9 says: "The witness was standing inside the school building together with

10 Avdil Aliu, the uncle of Erxhan. Five or six other people were also

11 present in the school. The witness remembers that his uncle got a phone

12 call and some of his relatives said that Erxhan was killed. The call came

13 to the telephone in the principal's office in the school building. The

14 witness remembers the following people present in the school: Avdil Ali,

15 Hysni Museli, Afet Zendeli, Nadim Musliu, Ramadan Nuredimi. Is that

16 correct, sir, that at the time which you have indicated around 4.00, 5.00

17 on the 10th of August, Mr. Avdil Ali, your uncle was not his house but in

18 the school building where a meeting was taking place. Is that correct?

19 A. This is not correct. And I would like to know who is playing

20 these games. These things that you are putting to me are not correct.

21 They've never been accurate. I don't know who is inventing all these

22 lies.

23 Q. Is it correct, sir, that the purpose of the meeting was to discuss

24 the defence of the village, how who organise the defence against a

25 possible attack. Is that correct?

Page 3457

1 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours.


3 MR. NEUNER: The witness --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not correct.

5 MR. NEUNER: The witness has just answered but the witness himself

6 was not at this meeting. He claimed to have been at home at this point in

7 time, so the question is asking or inviting the witness to speculate.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

9 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, with respect, there would be many

10 other ways in which the information could have been acquired by the

11 witness other than his presence at the meeting. We have no information to

12 suggest that this particular witness was at the meeting. We understand

13 that we have to put our case to the witness, and the meeting which took

14 place at that time is relevant to this. It is also relevant to the

15 credibility of this witness, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Certainly insofar as you put a question that Avdil

17 was not at his house, you certainly properly can. Where he may have been,

18 you'll have to ask then whether the witness knows that.

19 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Is that also correct, Mr. Ali, that armed men were patrolling the

21 village in several locations in the village of Ljuboten on the 10th, 11th,

22 and 12th of August?

23 A. This is not correct. And I have arguments and facts that up to

24 Friday, the Macedonian police could walk freely in the village.

25 Q. Is that correct, sir, also that the villagers who were present in

Page 3458

1 this meeting were informed that NLA reinforcements would shortly be coming

2 to the village. Are you aware of that?

3 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, before the witness answers.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Neuner.

5 MR. NEUNER: I don't want to repeat my objection but --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that is not correct. There was

7 no NLA. Had there been NLA members, they wouldn't have been able to do

8 that to us.


10 Q. Is that correct, sir, that during this meeting or shortly

11 thereafter a number of villagers were distributed with live ammunitions.

12 Is that correct?

13 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, before the witness answers I have twice

14 object now against this line of questioning. The witness has said he was

15 not at the meeting but at home and my learned colleague is putting again

16 and again questions about the meeting and what happened after the meeting

17 to the witness. Maybe as another line of questioning my learned

18 colleague could ask whether the witness had later been at the school so

19 that he establish some basis for his questions and for putting certain

20 questions relating to the school to the witness.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE PARKER: The question at the moment doesn't specify anything

23 happening at the school but something happening, it could appear,

24 village-wide.

25 We do appreciate your concern, Mr. Neuner, that the question may

Page 3459

1 be being directed contrary to the evidence of the witness. But we also

2 appreciate Mr. Mettraux's position that he is needing to put a contrary

3 position.

4 As I understand it, that is what he is doing. And in that

5 situation, he can put the position for which his client contends and the

6 witness, as he clearly demonstrates he is capable of doing, will indicate

7 his own understanding of what occurred, if he knows what occurred.


9 Q. Mr. Ali, I will ask you the question once again. Are aware that

10 during the meetings or shortly thereafter a number of villagers were

11 distributed with live round of ammunitions?

12 A. No. There was no ammunition in the village.

13 Q. Moving on to Saturday, the 11th of August. You said in your

14 statement that the shelling started again in the morning hours on

15 Saturday. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it started at around approximately 8.00 in the morning; is

18 that correct?

19 A. At 8.00 in the morning, on Sunday.

20 Q. Sorry, Mr. Ali, I'm now asking you questions if we can take one

21 day back to Saturday, the 11th.

22 Could you recall at what time approximately the shelling starting

23 on that day, or what you have described as shelling.

24 A. The shelling and shooting started, I don't know the exact time,

25 but they lasted till noon. Then there was a lull and they re -- they

Page 3460

1 continued the following day, on the Sunday.

2 Q. And is that your evidence that the shelling and shooting was quite

3 intense during that period? Was there a lot of shelling and shooting or

4 was it sporadic?

5 A. There was shooting from light weapons and there was also shelling.

6 Q. And in your view, sir, and to the extent that you can assess would

7 that fire directed at the village, as you say, would this have been

8 audible from the nearby village of Ljubanci?

9 A. I don't know. There were shooting from all sides. Our village is

10 the only Albanian village in that area. They were shooting from all

11 sides. We were in the basement and we could only hear the detonations.

12 Q. My question was whether you are able to state whether that fire

13 activity would have been audible from Ljubanci or not, if you are able to

14 answer that question.

15 A. I'm not able to, because I didn't dare to come out of the basement

16 and look from which side they were shooting.

17 Q. And on Saturday, the 11th, sir, do you remember where your brother

18 Vehap was at the time?

19 A. Yes. He was at home. On Saturday, in the afternoon, the shooting

20 stopped, and that's when we buried my son together with my father, uncles,

21 and cousins, all of us, 30 people were together in the basement, children,

22 women, all of us.

23 Q. And, sir, so that it is clear for the record when you say he was

24 at home do you mean by that that he was at his home; is that correct?

25 A. We were together in one house at my father's house because my

Page 3461

1 brother and I shared the same house as my father.

2 Q. So if your brother Vehap were to say that he was -- well, I

3 withdraw that question, Your Honour.

4 Do you know where Erhan, your cousin Erhan was on Saturday, the

5 11th?

6 A. Erhan, too, was in the house. We were all together in the house.

7 My uncles, their wives, the children, all of us were in the basement.

8 They had come on the occasion of my son being killed.

9 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Ali, that during the weekend of the 10th to

10 the 12th of August there were members of the NLA and armed civilians in

11 the village of Ljuboten?

12 A. No, this is not correct.

13 Q. Mr. Ali, have you been asked or told not to mention the presence

14 of the NLA in the village during that weekend?

15 A. No, nobody asked me or told me not to mention this. And the truth

16 is that there was no NLA in the village. These are only lies, nothing

17 else.

18 Q. Is that correct, sir, that quite a number of villagers from

19 Ljuboten had joined the ranks of the NLA in 2001? Isn't that correct?

20 A. No, that's not correct.

21 Q. Can you tell this Chamber who is Najl [phoen] Ali?

22 A. Najl Ali is the son of my uncle on my father's side.

23 Q. So that would be your cousin; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And Najl was also the brother of Erhan; is that correct?

Page 3462

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And is that correct also that Najl Ali, your cousin, was a member

3 of the NLA?

4 A. During the war or before the war, he was staying with his uncles

5 on his mother's side in Aracinovo. What happened later, that I don't

6 know.

7 Q. But my question was, sir, you are aware that your cousin, Najl,

8 was a member of the NLA; is that correct?

9 A. No. That's not correct. Because personally I don't know this.

10 He was staying with his uncles. We are simple villagers. We are always

11 busy with our agricultural work so we see each other very rarely during

12 the summer.

13 Q. But if his brother Erhan were to say that Najl was a member of the

14 NLA you would not take any issue with that. Is that correct?

15 A. He could well say that, but I don't know this for a fact.

16 Q. Thank you. Is that correct, sir, that at the time of death of

17 your son Erxhan, Rohan Jashari was present near or close by your son?

18 A. My son was on the street. When Erhan saw him killed, he took his

19 body to the house. I don't know if there was anybody else there.

20 Q. Had Mr. Jashari joined the NLA, sir, at the time?

21 A. Which Jashari are you referring to?

22 Q. I'm referring to Ruhan or Rohan Jashari.

23 A. Yes, he was at home. This I know.

24 Q. Sorry, I think we must have been lost in the translation here.

25 Could you confirm whether or not Rohan Jashari had joined the NLA

Page 3463

1 at the time?

2 A. No. Because a day before the war started, I saw him in his house,

3 because he is a neighbour. He lives very close by my house.

4 Q. Is that correct that members of the family of Mr. Rohan Jashari

5 were members of the NLA, sir? Is that correct?

6 A. That's not correct.

7 Q. Is that correct that Rohan's own brother was a member of the NLA?

8 A. I don't know about his brother.

9 Q. So your evidence, sir, is that you don't know whether members of

10 Mr. Jashari's family and his own brother were in fact members of the NLA.

11 Is that correct?

12 A. For Rohan I guarantee you that he was not a member of the NLA. He

13 was at his house. For the other person, I didn't see him, so I cannot

14 guarantee anything about him.

15 Q. Thank you. I would like to move on a little bit in time, Mr. Ali,

16 to ask you what you describe as mistreatment and beating at the Prolece or

17 Kisela Voda police station in Bit Pazar. Do you remember giving that

18 evidence?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you indicated, I believe, that the beating which you received

21 had been quite severe; is that correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And it is your evidence that the injuries caused by those beatings

24 remained apparent for several days or weeks; is that correct?

25 A. Yes. I still have a scar on my head. You can see it even

Page 3464

1 nowadays.

2 Q. And you've indicated as well that while you were in the Prolece or

3 Kisela Voda police station you were, as you said beaten on both hands by

4 Kalashnikov butt rifle. Do you recall saying that?

5 A. Yes. When they performed the paraffin test they were hitting our

6 hands.

7 Q. And is that correct that you tested positive to the nitrite

8 particles after they carried out the paraffin glove test on you?

9 A. Yes, this is what I was told. But when they carried out this

10 test, my head was under the table. I don't know and I wasn't able to see

11 what they were doing with my hands. I was just told that I tested

12 positive.

13 Q. Is that correct that you were asked to explain how the nitrite

14 particles had come on to you? You recall being asked about that?

15 A. No, they didn't ask me about that.

16 Q. Do you recall appearing in court in the month of October of 2001?

17 I believe it was from the 24th to the 26th of October. Do you recall?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you recall being asked by the court or your lawyer being

20 asked by the court to explain the presence of nitrite particles on

21 yourself? Do you recall that?

22 A. No, I wasn't asked about this in court.

23 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, if this witness could be shown what is

24 Prosecution Exhibit P50 with an ERN ET-N002-0285-1. The Macedonian

25 version would be N002-0084-202.

Page 3465

1 Well, that would not seem be to the correct document. I will

2 repeat the ERN. It is ET N002-0285-1. And the Macedonian would be

3 N002-0084-202. Thank you, yes, that is the correct document.

4 Q. And if I can ask -- well, first perhaps going through that

5 document, Mr. Ali. As you can see this is a decision or ruling depending

6 on the translation, rendered by the Lower Court Skopje II.

7 It seems like the Macedonian is not the same as the English

8 version. Yes, the number of the Macedonian version would be

9 N002-0084-202. Thank you.

10 Sir, this is a ruling or decision of the Trial Chamber of the

11 Lower Court, Skopje II, Skopje. Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it is dated the 26th of October of 2001. Can you see that?

14 That is at the end of the first paragraph.

15 A. 26th, yes.

16 Q. If we may turn, please, to the second page of that document.

17 [Defence counsel confer]

18 MR. METTRAUX: It would be the third page in the Macedonian, I'm

19 sorry.

20 Q. Mr. Ali, there is a paragraph in this document which I wish to

21 read to you. It says the following: "On 24th September 2001 the accused

22 Ali Isni and Jatif Aliovski the village of Ljuboten, Skopje, stated their

23 objection to the indictment, KO number 2801-01 of 7 September 2001, to the

24 Trial Chamber of the Court through their Defence counsel, Petar Svetonov,

25 an attorney-at-law of Skopje.

Page 3466

1 Can you now recall this hearing, Mr. Ali?

2 A. We were not asked about anything at this hearing. We only stayed

3 ten minutes and then we were returned to the prison. Only the lawyers

4 were asked questions.

5 Q. And do you recall your lawyer being asked about the nitrite on

6 yourself? Do you recall that?

7 A. No, I don't.

8 Q. Well, if I continue reading from that paragraph. That would be

9 the second page in the English, please.

10 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, the version from which I am reading is

11 slightly different. It is two different translations, the same document

12 having been admitted twice. We understand the substance is similar.

13 Q. The decision or ruling -- this is not the correct page which is

14 shown on the computer. It is ET-N002-0285-2.

15 I'll continue, I'll read it for you for the transcript.

16 MR. NEUNER: If I may assist my learned colleague, I believe it is

17 the second page of the B/C/S or of the Macedonian version. What is

18 displayed on the right hand is the third page. I believe it is the second

19 page.

20 MR. METTRAUX: I understand it is correct page in the Macedonian

21 but the wrong page in the English, Your Honour, because they are two

22 different translations, so it may be the third page in the English

23 version, it is the second in ours.

24 Q. Mr. Ali, I apologise for the delay. I will read to you the

25 paragraph in question.

Page 3467

1 It says this: "In the objection submitted as well as in the

2 session held on 25th October, 2001, in accordance with Article 261

3 paragraph 2 of the ZKP, where Petar Svetonov, attorney-at-law of Skopje,

4 verbally explained the objection in the presence of the accused, stating

5 that that accusation is based on only one piece of evidence, the paraffin

6 glove test, which demonstrated the presence of nitrite particles, which

7 evidence in and of itself, is insufficient for the crime of service in an

8 enemy army. Since the accused fled arriving from a place which is

9 contaminated due to the intensive events which took place there."

10 Do you recall your lawyer making that objection, sir, at the time?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. It goes on to say this: "In particular, he states that the

13 accused Ali Isni had previous contact with a contaminated object, namely a

14 piece of the shell with which his son Erxhan Ali was killed at the age of

15 six years when struck on 10 August 2001."

16 Can you remember your lawyer saying that?

17 A. Yes. This I remember, because I removed the shrapnels from the

18 body of my son.

19 Q. And do you recall your lawyer stating that to the Trial Chamber?

20 A. No, this I don't recall.

21 Q. Did you -- you've just explained that you removed the piece of

22 shrapnel in question. Did you take that piece of shrapnel with both of

23 your hands or with one hand?

24 A. I don't remember if I used both hands or one hand, but I just

25 remember that I removed the shrapnel and when your child gets killed you

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1 don't pay attention to that. When I saw my son in pieces, I don't know

2 how I can describe in words the feeling I was going through.

3 MR. METTRAUX: I have just one more question, Your Honour, if you

4 allow me to finish this part of the cross-examination.

5 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Ali, that other villagers who had testified

6 negative to nitrite were released on that date, including your brother

7 Vehap. Is that correct?

8 A. The night we were brought there, they released my brother and some

9 others. They told me brother to go, and they released whoever they wanted

10 to. They said to my brother, "Choose who you want to come with you." He

11 wanted me to go home as well, but they didn't let me go. There was not

12 a -- there were releasing people at random.

13 Q. Isn't that the truth, sir, that only those persons who tested

14 positive to nitrite were kept in detention?

15 A. No, that's not true, because around midnight we were removed from

16 our room. We were taken to the corridor, we were told that we were going

17 to be released. They lined us up there, they kept us there for 30 minutes

18 and then they put us back in the room and told us that they could not

19 release us.

20 MR. METTRAUX: Would that be a convenient time, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much Mr. Mettraux.

22 We must adjourn now for the day and we will resume tomorrow

23 morning at 9.00.

24 Before we do, although it is unusual, the Chamber understands that

25 one of the accused has recently become a father. We congratulate him and

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1 his wife.

2 We adjourn.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Friday, the 13th day of July,

5 2007, at 9.00 a.m.