Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3983

1 Wednesday, 22 August 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

6 We are told there are a number -- or there is at least one matter,

7 there may be more, that counsel wish to raise before we continue.

8 Mr. Saxon.

9 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 I would like to inform the Trial Chamber about a disclosure error

11 involving the witness who is currently testifying which I discovered last

12 evening. You'll recall yesterday during the witness's testimony that the

13 witness mentioned that he had conversations with an OTP investigator in

14 which he told -- including at least one face-to-face meeting, in which he

15 told the investigator that portions of his statement from 2004 to the ICTY

16 were either not correct or not -- not true.

17 Following that testimony, I directed my staff via e-mail yesterday

18 to search for any such information, and the Prosecution team yesterday

19 afternoon located information which confirms what the witness said, at

20 least vis-a-vis a face-to-face meeting that took place in February of this

21 year in Skopje, and that -- this information was recorded on what is

22 called a witness information form, which is usually information that is

23 only shared between the Office of the Prosecutor and the Victims and

24 Witness Unit, which is part of the reason why I did not discover this

25 information earlier. And the information that was recorded by the

Page 3984

1 investigator states that during this conversation with the witness in

2 February of this year to confirm that the witness would be a witness for

3 the Prosecution, the witness told the investigator that much of what was

4 in his 2004 statement was either not true or incorrect and explained some

5 of the reasons for that.

6 When I discovered that we had this information last night which we

7 had not disclosed previously to the Defence, I immediately ran down to the

8 Defence counsel room and gave a copy to Ms. Residovic; and then

9 subsequently, I e-mailed a copy to counsel for Mr. Tarculovski so they

10 have this information, in case they wish to use it during

11 cross-examination.

12 This was my mistake, Your Honour. The investigator who recorded

13 this information attempted to bring it to my attention via e-mail on the

14 2nd of March this year but apparently, I was distracted and it slipped

15 through the cracks. So this was my error and the Prosecution apologises

16 for it.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Saxon. You have informed

18 counsel and we are still in the process of dealing with the witness.

19 Thank you. Is there any matter that needs to be dealt with at

20 this stage, any other matter?

21 Yes, indeed, Mr. Mettraux.

22 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Simply to

23 express our gratitude first to Mr. Saxon for providing the statement in

24 question to us last night. We also sent a further request to Mr. Saxon to

25 conduct a search for any similar material as might have pertained to past

Page 3985

1 or future witnesses.

2 There are two other matters, perhaps, which could be raised at

3 this stage, if the Chamber is minded to do so. The first one relates to

4 the timing of the return of one of the Prosecution witness, Mr. Hutsch.

5 We have had some exchange of e-mail with Mr. Saxon, and I understand that

6 Mr. Saxon has sought to obtain some information in that regard, the

7 Defence would be very keen to obtain clear guidance and information as to

8 the time of the return of Mr. Hutsch. We had understood from Your

9 Honours's statement and instructions before the break that this witness

10 should come during the last two weeks of the month of August and it seems

11 to be, at this stage, quite compromised, if we understand the information

12 we've received from the Prosecution.

13 The next matter which we would like to query at this stage and

14 again if the Chamber is minded to seek information from the Prosecution is

15 the length, or the foreseen length of the remainder of the case and also

16 further witnesses dropped from the Prosecution case. At this stage, we

17 can indicate that the Prosecution kindly informed the Defence yesterday

18 that at least one witness who appears on this list will probably or most

19 likely not be called by the Prosecution.

20 Finally, I will simply indicate that there's a number of issues

21 which we still discuss with the Prosecution, in particular, in relation to

22 further disclosure of material and we hope at this stage to be able to

23 sort it out directly with the Prosecution.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mettraux.

Page 3986

1 Anything further?

2 Mr. Saxon.

3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, prior to the summer recess, the

4 Prosecution via the Victim Witness Section, tried to communicate with Mr.

5 Hutsch to obtain his presence here during the last two weeks of this

6 month. The information that the Prosecution received back through VWS was

7 that if Mr. Hutsch came here at the end of this month, he would only be

8 able to do that for two days, because of his other professional

9 commitments. And that he would not commit to the four-day period that he

10 is required to come back for until the 15th of -- excuse me, the

11 information that was received from VWS was that Mr. Hutsch would not

12 commit to the four days that are necessary to complete his testimony until

13 the end of October.

14 When I received that information, I spoke with members of VWS and

15 asked them to please get back in touch with Mr. Hutsch and ask him to

16 commit to the four-day period beginning on the 15th of October, Monday,

17 the 15th, I believe, through Thursday the 18th. VWS has sent e-mails, has

18 left telephone messages. We do not have a response yet from Mr. Hutsch.

19 I did not want to agree to bringing Mr. Hutsch back again only for

20 two days because then I felt we would have the same problem, because the

21 Defence has told us they need three more days for cross-examination and I

22 did not want to create another situation where cross-examination was going

23 to be interrupted.

24 JUDGE PARKER: In short, you don't know at the moment when it

25 would be convenient to have the witness back.

Page 3987

1 MR. SAXON: I cannot confirm at the moment. I'm hoping it will be

2 Monday, the 15th of October, but we are waiting for confirmation.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now --

4 MR. SAXON: With respect to the other matter, Your Honour.


6 MR. SAXON: The length of the Prosecution's case, I've done some

7 calculations. First of all, it is correct what Mr. Mettraux said, the

8 Prosecution does intend to drop one more witness from its witness list and

9 we will inform the Chamber of that in writing in the near future.

10 With that reduction, if the witness testimony proceeds at the pace

11 that was going prior to the summer recess, according to the estimates that

12 I made in the Prosecution's filing of the 12th of July, there would still

13 be approximately 11 more weeks of Prosecution evidence remaining, which

14 would take us into the first week of November.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Now, in forming that estimate, on what basis have

16 you allowed time for cross-examination, Mr. Saxon?

17 MR. SAXON: I have kept to the conservative estimates that the

18 Prosecution submitted in its revised calculations to the Chamber on the

19 12th of July. In other words, I'm continuing to follow the same

20 estimates, the same extended number of hours permitted for

21 cross-examination.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It was the experience of the Chamber that in the

23 weeks until the break we were not maintaining that rate of progress. Is

24 that something that you have not made any allowance for?

25 MR. SAXON: I did not make allowance for that, Your Honour. I did

Page 3988

1 not.

2 Having said -- this week, Your Honour, according to the Defence,

3 we will actually be under that estimate. So I decided --

4 JUDGE PARKER: What alarms me in particular was to see an estimate

5 for a witness next week where some nearly 12 hours of cross-examination

6 was being proposed for one relatively routine witness.

7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, there have been communications between

8 the Prosecution and Defence counsel quite recently where the Prosecution

9 has asked Defence counsel to inform the Prosecution whether Defence

10 counsel believe they will use less time for cross-examination than

11 estimated by the Prosecution, and the only estimate that we have received

12 where the time would be less would be for the current witness.

13 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber would indicate that its concern with

14 the slow rate of progress is reaching the point where contrary to its

15 preference to leave it to counsel to be mindful of the need for

16 considerable economy of time that the point is virtually now reached when

17 it will be necessary for the Chamber to impose time-limits to try and

18 bring the total length of this trial within some reasonable limit.

19 I make that very clear now, because in the next two weeks, if

20 there is not a clear indication from the actual progress made, that the

21 matter of time is under control with each witness, counsel will have to

22 expect that time-limits will be imposed. So we're really allowing just

23 two weeks more, this week and next week, to see whether there can be a

24 considerable discipline imposed about time; and if that cannot be, we will

25 have to take the step of imposing some arbitrary limits, in the interests

Page 3989

1 of trying to ensure that this case finishes within a more reasonable time.

2 I hope that indication is clear enough to counsel, and we will

3 watch progress closely.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think it's a time when we can expect

6 Defence counsel to make any useful observation or submission about the

7 matter of progress, and in view of that, we will just move now to continue

8 the evidence of the witness but ask counsel to take very careful note of

9 what has just been said.

10 Thank you.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Could I remind you that the

14 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence still applies and

15 we apologise that you were kept waiting as we dealt with some other

16 matters.

17 Ms. Residovic.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jakovoski.

23 A. Good afternoon. Good afternoon.

24 Q. Yesterday, in answering my questions, you said that you, together

25 with Mr. Boskoski, came to Ljubanci and that as you recalled a policeman,

Page 3990

1 an Albanian, led you to the place where you came out of the vehicle. Do

2 you recall talking about this yesterday?

3 A. Yes, I recall that.

4 Q. You then said at 3938 page of the transcript, you said that you

5 remember of a head of a municipality with whom the minister then spoke

6 with. Once again, you met this head on page 3940 of the transcript, and

7 3941, line 19. I would ask you to clarify what you said.

8 You said that this was the head of this municipality where you

9 were at. If I were to try to recall to you that the municipality of this

10 place is the municipality of Cair in the city of Skopje, would this lead

11 you to remember that this was in fact the municipality of Cair?

12 A. Yes. Yes, it was the municipality of Cair. That is where the

13 village is.

14 Q. When you said that the head of this municipality was there, was I

15 correct in understanding that you wanted to say that, in effect, this was

16 the head of the unit of internal affairs of this municipality, that is to

17 say, the police of the municipality of Cair, and not the mayor. Is this

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. Therefore, the person with whom the Minister Boskoski met and with

21 whom he spoke with and who explained to the minister various issues and

22 things was the head of the police of the municipality of Cair; is this

23 correct?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. In your statement, you did not speak of the name of the head of

Page 3991

1 this municipality.

2 I would ask that the witness be now shown 65 ter 1D497, page

3 1D4519. It is only in the English language, and this is the segment of

4 the statement of Branko Pejcinovski.

5 In this point, it is stated: [In English] When we arrived there,

6 there are a lot of person just when we stepped out, the minister and met

7 the other commander, Ljube Krstevski. I can't say that was the

8 conversation about."

9 [Interpretation] Is this statement of Branko Pejcinovski, can this

10 lead you to remember that this head of the police of the municipality of

11 Cair is, in effect, Ljube Krstevski, the head of OVR Cair?

12 A. Yes, that is correct. I agree that it was Krstevski, the person

13 whom the minister spoke to at that moment.

14 Q. This is, in fact, the person who, for the whole time of your

15 sojourn in and stay in the courtyard in the house where you entered was in

16 the vicinity of the minister and he was the only person whom you

17 remembered explaining anything to the minister. Is this correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. If I were to put to you that it was evident upon leaving and upon

20 your arrival there that the minister did know what was going on and that

21 Ljube Krstevski explained something to me, would this be correct to say?

22 A. I apologise, I did not understand the question.

23 Q. My apology if the question was complex.

24 I want to ask you the following: Is your view of the situation in

25 which you found yourself in was such that you, at that moment, concluded

Page 3992

1 that, in effect, the Minister Boskoski, prior to arriving to this place

2 did not know what was going on there? Is this conclusion that I am

3 making correct?

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

5 MR. SAXON: Seems to the Prosecution that the witness is being

6 asked to speculate as to the knowledge of the accused Boskoski at that

7 time. We don't know whether the witness can do that.

8 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreters wish to point that the

9 witness answered that question but we could not give the answer because

10 the Prosecutor spoke at the same time.

11 JUDGE PARKER: The concern of Mr. Saxon, Ms. Residovic, is that

12 you are asking the witness to conjecture. Is there anything you want to

13 say about that?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm asking only

15 about what the experience of the witness was at that time, not what the

16 minister knew at that time. I asked whether the witness could have

17 concluded and the minister did not know what was going on.

18 The witness responded to this. However, if you feel that the

19 question is to be rephrased --

20 JUDGE PARKER: Now we have not recorded it. We have not -- the

21 answer was not able to be identified because it was overtaken, and I'm

22 still struggling with your proposition.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Q. Sir, can you please tell me when you went towards Ljubanci, did

25 you personally know what was going on there?

Page 3993

1 A. I didn't know.

2 Q. Did the minister perhaps, during the drive, tell you that he knows

3 what's going on there?

4 A. No, he didn't know either.

5 Q. And when you arrived there, when the head Krstevski explained to

6 him, was it evident that this was -- the minister was receiving first

7 information about what was going on there?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. Thank you. You personally had not been there prior to that day;

10 is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. And not alone, not with the minister, you had not been there

13 prior, to Ljubanci?

14 A. No, I have never been there before.

15 Q. And to the question of the Prosecution, you said that you did not

16 pay attention to the content of the conversation between the head and the

17 minister because it was customary that your care was to care of the safety

18 of the minister. Is this correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. You also stated when you stopped you heard shots in the village.

21 Is this correct?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. Yesterday, the Prosecution showed you a video-clip where you

24 recognised yourself and you recognised also the minister. Do you remember

25 this?

Page 3994

1 A. Yes, that is correct. I remember that.

2 Q. Prior to that, to the question of the Prosecution you confirmed

3 that there you found a large number of people but you said that you were

4 not sure of their number. You said it could have been 20 or hundred and

5 this is noted in the transcript on page 3938 to 3922 to 23 [as

6 interpreted]. Is this what you said? Is this correct?

7 A. I remember having said that.

8 Q. 65 ter 1D498, page 1D4527 in the English version, and 1D4541 --

9 4541 D, item 17 in the Macedonian version.

10 Do you see item 17?

11 [In English] When we arrived, I have seen some army reservists and

12 police reservists. One of them army reservist approached the minister and

13 was crying because his best friend was killed. I don't know the details.

14 I think this reservist was really disturbed, his colleagues took him away.

15 At the arrival, I saw two people in civilian."

16 [Interpretation] Tell me please, is it correct that in addition to

17 the police reservists, you also saw there a number of army reservists?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. And that you saw civilians. Is this also correct?

20 A. Yes. There were many civilians there, yes.

21 Q. However, as you said, about the number, when asked by the

22 Prosecution, you also cannot be sure of their number, the number of army

23 reservists and civilians. Is this correct?

24 A. Yes. I could not say this precisely.

25 Q. I would now ask that you be shown document 1D497, page 1D4519,

Page 3995

1 item 27, 28, and 29. This is the statement of Branko Pejcinovski, again

2 the deputy head of the security of which we talked about yesterday. He as

3 we could see previously, that when you came there were a lot of people

4 there, in item 26 this is said. However, in item 27 he says the

5 following: [In English] I am sure that the minister spoke in front of

6 garden also with villagers and calmed them down not to go in the village

7 of Ljuboten. It was a lot of person. They were in civilian clothes,

8 these men and women [indiscernible]. I think I have seen at this time

9 hundred or more villagers."

10 [Interpretation] My question to you, in view of this statement

11 made by Branko Pejcinovski and your previous statement that you had seen

12 only two civilians, could it be correct that you saw civilians but that

13 you cannot at this point and at this moment say the exact number of

14 civilians was there due to the same reasons that you cannot recall of

15 other events as well?

16 A. Yes, I agree with you. Only I can't give you the exact number of

17 the civilians.

18 Q. Thank you. My learned colleague of the Prosecution showed you a

19 video-clip yesterday, as I already said, where you recognised yourself and

20 the minister. Due to this transcript this is evidence P363 MFI, and if

21 you recall, on that clip you were standing next to a wall. Do you

22 remember this?

23 A. Yes, I remember that.

24 Q. And on that clip, you could see, and I'm asking you whether you

25 recall, that the courtyard of the house was surrounded by a rather high

Page 3996

1 wall?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. And in that courtyard you could not see any kind of other

4 fortifications or sandbags or anything like that?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. This wall was the only protection. Is this correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. And if you recall of the video-clip which you saw yesterday, is it

9 correct that it could -- that on a number of occasion it could be seen

10 that there was shooting, that shooting could be heard and that people were

11 protecting themselves behind the wall? Do you remember seeing this on the

12 clip?

13 A. Yes, I remember since I was there, and this was shooting coming

14 from the village towards the house.

15 Q. And this was the reason why perhaps you and other persons who were

16 there tried to take cover behind the wall, because the shooting was coming

17 from the village towards your position. Is this correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. And generally speaking, in view of the fact that with the minister

20 you sometimes you were present in the battle grounds, is it correct to say

21 that the walls of the houses were often used as protection?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. When the Prosecution showed you the video-clip from the village of

24 Matejce, we could see there the minister and that he had a helmet on his

25 head. Do you recall this?

Page 3997

1 A. Yes, I remember that.

2 Q. And to my question you responded that very often you asked of the

3 minister to put on protective wear when you were close to places where

4 there was shooting going on?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. This time when you were in Ljubanci in this house, the minister

7 was in civil wear?

8 A. Yes, this is correct.

9 Q. He did not have a helmet on his head. Is this correct?

10 A. Yes, that is so.

11 Q. You did not suggest this to you because you did not expect that

12 you would find some kind of battle there. Is this correct?

13 A. Yes, this is correct.

14 Q. And when you heard the shooting, as a body-guard, you were in a

15 greater stress -- state of stress because of the safety of the minister.

16 Could I phrase it in this way?

17 A. Yes, I agree with you.

18 Q. Tell me please, through the wall which we saw as we saw on the

19 video-clip, you looked on towards the village, could you see a lot? Was

20 there a lot to be seen?

21 A. You could not see anything above that wall. We could not see the

22 village. We could not see any battle going on.

23 Q. Tell me, please, when you saw - and this can be seen on the

24 clip - did you see that there were only a few houses from which smoke

25 could be seen?

Page 3998

1 If you do not recall, this is not important. We saw the clip

2 yesterday.

3 A. I could not remember now.

4 Q. Also, to the question of my learned colleague from the

5 Prosecution, you said that in the courtyard of this house you remained

6 about one and a half hours. This would also be an assessment of the

7 situation -- which you can give of the situation today. Is this correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. When you were in the courtyard of that house, you did not at any

10 point of time notice that Ljube Boskoski gave any kind of orders, whether

11 to Ljube Krstevski or to someone else?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Mr. Jakovoski, yesterday you stated before this Court that there

14 were many occasions when you spoke to the OTP, actually the investigator

15 of the OTP over the phone, and also you had a meeting with the

16 investigator personally in a hotel in Skopje. On transcript page 3967,

17 lines 9 to 11, you stated that there were at least five or six occasions

18 when you spoke on the phone, and that for you that was some kind of a

19 psychological problem. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. We received the notes of the investigator, and the investigator

22 says that since 2004, until February of 2007, he phoned you 15 times. You

23 can confirm that this could be true, but you do not remember the exact

24 number?

25 A. I cannot recall, but it could have been 15.

Page 3999

1 Q. When you stated that this posed a certain psychological problem to

2 you, could I infer from this that you felt under pressure regarding your

3 testimony?

4 A. Yes, great.

5 Q. I will ask you now to -- to reply to certain personal questions

6 and if you feel that you should not respond, I will not insist that you

7 do.

8 We spoke about your professional career development and your

9 employment in police stations as a uniformed police officer. Tell me,

10 please, is it correct that before coming to the security department you

11 worked as an inspector in the department for illegal trafficking of drugs?

12 A. Yes, this is correct.

13 Q. Is it also correct that you, after leaving the security of

14 Mr. Boskoski, you again worked in the department for illegal trafficking

15 of drugs as an inspector?

16 A. Yes, this is correct.

17 Q. Is it correct that there is a very difficult job and that you

18 needed to work nights many times?

19 A. Yes, this is correct.

20 Q. Is it correct that in the Ministry of Interior for the sake of

21 security of the inspectors themselves but also for protection to prevent

22 them from abusing their office, there are tests carried out on the

23 inspectors performing these duties in order to prevent any chance that

24 some of the inspectors become drug abusers?

25 A. Yes, this is correct.

Page 4000

1 Q. And very often you had passed those tests. You -- the tests were

2 negative on you, and you never had any problems with drugs in your life;

3 is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Also, you never had any problems with alcohol.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. So if anyone were to suggest that you could have had such

8 problems, such suggestion would simply be incorrect. Is that so?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. When you replied to the Prosecutor's question yesterday that you

11 speak the truth today and that the change of power did not have any impact

12 on you, is it correct that everything you said to the Prosecutor from the

13 onset of the interviews was your personal wish to indicate to the

14 Prosecutor that some of the things that you had previously stated were

15 incorrect, that they were even false some of them?

16 A. Yes, this is correct.

17 Q. And that decision of yours, your honesty in stating those facts to

18 the Prosecutor were not caused by any pressure from someone; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, it is correct.

21 Q. This was not related also to the fact that the Albanians were not

22 indicted before this Court. It was simply that you decided to speak the

23 truth and that the Prosecutor should know that in time. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, absolutely correct.

25 Q. So if someone were to infer that you stated this due to some other

Page 4001

1 reasons and not those that you confirmed now before this Court, that

2 inference or that statement would be incorrect. Is that so?

3 A. Yes, it is so.

4 Q. Now, I would like to ask you something else.

5 You were asked yesterday by the Prosecutor about some allegedly

6 private locations and then the restaurants, Del Fufo, Galija, and -- and

7 another restaurant -- Dzino, yes, it's Dzino.

8 Tell me, please, are the restaurants public locations?

9 A. Yes, this is so.

10 Q. And these restaurants Del Fufo, Galija and Dzino that were

11 mentioned in the transcript, page 3926, lines 1 to 7, they are actually

12 quite popular restaurants in Skopje and they're centrally located. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes, it is correct.

15 Q. And they're frequented on a daily basis by many prominent

16 personas. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is correct.

18 Q. But they are also frequented by ordinary citizens many of them

19 regardless of their affiliation or national, political or any other

20 provenance. Is that so?

21 A. Yes, this is so.

22 Q. And practically, each of these restaurants is entered daily by

23 many hundreds of people; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. So what you have stated, these restaurants that the Prosecutor has

Page 4002

1 mentioned are no private locations. They are public locations; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, this is correct.

4 Q. And if I understood you well, the Minister Boskoski sometimes went

5 privately to some of these restaurants; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, this is correct.

7 Q. For you, the body-guards, it was actually always a problem when

8 the minister would go to such places where there were tens or hundreds of

9 people at each moment of time; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, this is correct.

11 Q. Actually, this was again related to your fundamental duty, that

12 you need to take care about the safety of the minister, and if I

13 understood well, if I understood you well, many people would come and

14 greet the minister; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, this is correct. Everybody wanted to extend greetings to the

16 minister at that time.

17 Q. This would also happen when minister was walking down a street.

18 People would come and greet him and that was always a stressful situation

19 for you, the body-guards; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is correct.

21 Q. That was particularly stressful because that was the time of the

22 crisis, and you never knew who could be someone -- who the person who

23 comes to the minister is actually; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. And I would like to ask you to tell me whether I understood you

Page 4003

1 correctly, when you stated that maybe during some private outings, the

2 minister met Bucuk, this could be understood as Bucuk, as simply anyone

3 else coming to greet the minister. Would that be correct?

4 A. Yes, this is correct.

5 Q. But you could not confirm this fact with certainty; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, this is correct.

8 Q. And you yourself couldn't confirm actually whether Bucuk was an

9 acquaintance of the minister or not; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, this is correct.

11 Q. But what you can say with certainty is that you never saw him

12 sitting with Bucuk or with Johan and having a conversation with them about

13 something. This was something that you never saw yourself. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, this is correct.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Your

17 Honours, I have no further questions of this witness.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.

19 Mr. Apostolski.

20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

21 It is not because we were cautioned by the Court, but I will have

22 no questions to ask of this witness.

23 JUDGE PARKER: That's extremely speedy, Mr. Apostolski.

24 Mr. Saxon.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:

Page 4004

1 Q. Inspector, my colleague read to you some lines from a statement

2 previously given to the Office of the Prosecutor by

3 Mr. Branko Pejcinovski. And in particular, earlier this afternoon

4 Ms. Residovic read you some lines from paragraph 30 of that statement with

5 respect to the events at Ljubanci on the 12th of August and who

6 Minister Boskoski spoke with there at that garden. And paragraph 30

7 begins like this: "Inside the garden" --

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not cite, I

9 did not quote item 30, rather, 27, 28 and 29. But I have also -- but I

10 did quote the statement, so for the purpose of establishing correctness, I

11 would like to say that I did not quote from this paragraph.

12 MR. SAXON: I'm grateful for the correction.

13 Q. You told my learned colleague that Minister Boskoski spoke to

14 people in the garden and calmed them down, people at the garden and calmed

15 them down. And then you mentioned that some people in the garden could

16 have been civilians.

17 Paragraph 30 of this witness statement begins like this: "Inside

18 the garden he spoke with some civilians. There were also some individuals

19 from the ministry in camouflage uniforms. I know them only by the face,

20 no names."

21 Yesterday you told us that when the minister entered that garden,

22 police officers in uniform stood at attention; do you recall that?

23 A. Yes, I recall.

24 Q. I just want to clarify you, would those persons standing at

25 attention have been the individuals from the ministry in camouflage

Page 4005

1 uniforms in that garden mentioned by your colleague, Mr. Pejcinovski?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Earlier today my colleague asked you about telephone

4 conversations and discussions that you had with an investigator from the

5 Office of the Prosecutor, and you mentioned that the investigator may have

6 called you around 15 times after you had already given your statement. Do

7 you recall the investigator, during those telephone calls, asking to have

8 a meeting with you, a face-to-face meeting with you?

9 A. Yes, he asked for such a meeting.

10 Q. And do you recall that after the indictments against Mr. Boskoski

11 and Mr. Tarculovski were released by this Tribunal, you refused to meet

12 because you believed that the Tribunal was biased and unfair for not

13 indicting ethnic Albanian suspects. Do you recall telling the

14 investigator that?

15 A. No, I do not recall.

16 Q. Do you recall telling the investigator during one telephone

17 conversation that you now wanted to become the best witness for

18 Brother Ljube, because The Hague Tribunal was not indicting Albanians. Do

19 you recall that?

20 A. No, I do not recall. This is not correct.

21 Q. In 2001, did you know that the man known as Bucuk and other

22 members of the Kometa security agency had a reputation for being

23 criminals? Did you know that?

24 A. I do not know this.

25 Q. Yesterday, Inspector, this is page 3956 of the transcript, you

Page 4006

1 agreed with my colleague that in 2001, Mr. Boskoski's basic message was

2 that you -- one should care for every human being and that all citizens,

3 irrespective of their ethnic or religious affiliations, they should all be

4 cared for, all those who love their country, Macedonia. Do you recall

5 explaining that?

6 A. Yes, I do remember.

7 Q. In 2001, what was Minister Boskoski's attitude towards Macedonian

8 citizens who criticised the actions of the security forces against the

9 NLA?

10 A. Can you please repeat the question? It is not quite clear to me.

11 Q. Did Minister Boskoski also feel that the rights of Macedonians who

12 criticised the Macedonian security forces in their battle against the NLA

13 should also be protected?

14 A. I'm not competent to respond to this question.

15 Q. Did Minister Boskoski in 2001 ever refer to persons who criticised

16 the security forces of Macedonia as traitors?

17 A. No, he did not say something like that.

18 Q. In 2001, did Minister Boskoski believe that -- I'll strike that.

19 In 2001, did Minister Boskoski believe that more rights should be

20 given to ethnic Albanians in Macedonia?

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, an objection.

22 Already a number of questions that the Prosecution has asked are

23 about the fact that -- or require the witness to express the views and the

24 feelings of the minister, and just recently he objected to one of my

25 similar questions in this respect.

Page 4007

1 I don't think these are questions that should be put to the

2 witness.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

4 MR. SAXON: My inquiry began with comments made by the witness

5 yesterday as to the "the basic message of Minister Boskoski." And what I

6 would like to explore is what Minister Boskoski's message was about the

7 rights of ethnic Albanians.

8 JUDGE PARKER: And how does this arise in re-examination?

9 MR. SAXON: Well, what was said yesterday during cross-examination

10 was that the Minister's basic message was "you should care for every human

11 being and all citizens irrespective of their ethnic or religious

12 affiliations, all those who love their country, Macedonia." This is at

13 page 3956. So I would like to explore whether the minister's message also

14 applied to ethnic Albanians seeking to expand their rights.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this segment, which

17 my learned colleague is recalling is only a quotation. A part of the book

18 which the Prosecutor had read himself, read at -- it fully but commented

19 only on the first sentence where it is stated that the minister had worked

20 day and night and at the end of this paragraph which was put in the direct

21 examination was that Boskoski wrote in his book that this is a feeling he

22 has towards all citizens of Macedonia, regardless of ethnic or religious

23 affiliation. I don't think the Prosecution has the right to go back to

24 what he had already himself asked.

25 MR. SAXON: The witness was asked to comment about this during

Page 4008

1 cross-examination.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.


4 Q. Inspector, I'm going to ask my question again.

5 During 2001 what was Minister Boskoski's message - to use the same

6 word - regarding ethnic Albanians who sought to increase their rights in

7 Macedonia?

8 A. The very background and origin of the minister from the village of

9 Celopek which is a mixed village, both Albanians and Macedonians lived

10 together, and through there and through the Macedonia he fought for the

11 equality of all citizens of Macedonia.

12 Q. Did Minister Boskoski agree to the efforts of some ethnic

13 Albanians to expand their constitutional rights in 2001?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once again, I have

15 to object, because this is not a question for this witness. He is a

16 body-guard.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be able to proceed, Ms. Residovic, on the

18 same basis that earlier questioning has.

19 Carry on, Mr. Saxon.


21 Q. Inspector, in 2001, did Minister Boskoski agree to the efforts of

22 some ethnic Albanians in Macedonia to expand their constitutional rights.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpretation could not hear. Could the

24 witness please repeat.


Page 4009

1 Q. You need to say that a bit more loudly.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He did. The answer is yes. The answer is yes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did he express his agreement to you?

6 A. Not to me personally.

7 Q. So how do you know he agreed with this -- with these efforts by

8 ethnic Albanians to increase their rights?

9 A. I heard through the television.

10 Q. All right. Yesterday at page 3959 of the transcript, you agreed

11 with my learned colleague that in 2001 when Minister Boskoski received

12 news that a police officer had been wounded or killed that he would take

13 it very personally. Do you recall saying that, or agreeing with that?

14 A. Yes, this is correct.

15 Q. And at the same page in the transcript you agreed with my

16 colleague that Minister Boskoski would always say that the police should

17 not react in the same manner and that Minister Boskoski was not a person

18 who sought revenge. Do you recall agreeing with that statement?

19 A. Yes, this is correct. I agree.

20 MR. SAXON: I'd like to show the witness, please, what is now

21 Exhibit P402. And if the binder for the witness could be given back to

22 him so he can look at it in hard copy. And if we could call up on e-court

23 page 31 in the English version and page 64 of the Macedonian version.

24 And, Mr. Usher, if you could help the witness by turning to tab 1

25 of the Macedonian version and turning to page 64 of that version.

Page 4010

1 Q. Inspector, if you could take a look at the top of page 64 in the

2 Macedonian version, please.

3 MR. SAXON: For those following in English, we're at the bottom of

4 page 31.

5 Q. And, Inspector, do you see at the top of the page, there's a

6 sentence beginning: "We must not allow for the terrorists to lead us to

7 the negotiation table."

8 Do you see that?

9 A. Yes, I see it.

10 Q. And this is from a statement that Minister Boskoski gave to

11 journalists on the 6th of June, 2001.

12 Inspector, if you look a little bit further down that

13 paragraph -- excuse me, yeah, a little bit further down, you'll see a

14 sentence that begins: "We must respond to terrorists."

15 Do you see that, just a few lines down? Same paragraph where you

16 were before: "We must respond to terrorists." Do you see that?

17 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if I could ask your assistance to direct

18 the witness to the place in his language. You can take that, if you like.

19 It's where the blue underline it.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see it.


22 Q. All right. That sentence reads the following: "We must respond

23 to terrorists with the same manner and methods that they bring into play."

24 Do you see that?

25 A. Yes, I see it.

Page 4011

1 Q. Inspector, does that sound like a call for revenge to you?

2 A. I have no comment to this.

3 Q. Well, I'd like to ask you for a comment, please. I'd like you to

4 answer my question.

5 A. Doesn't seem like revenge to me.

6 Q. I see. All right.

7 Inspector, prior to your testimony here in The Hague, did anyone

8 ask you to say that you did not remember details about the events at

9 Ljuboten in August 2001?

10 A. This is not correct. No one told me.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I have no further questions.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE PARKER: So you'll be pleased to know that that concludes

16 the questions that will be asked of you. We thank you for your attendance

17 in The Hague and the assistance you have given. You are now free to

18 return to your other activities, and the court officer will show you out.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

22 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution was informed yesterday

23 that the Defence would require less time with this witness. Yesterday we

24 made efforts to try to bring witnesses forward so the witness scheduled to

25 testify on Friday will now be testifying tomorrow. We have also arranged

Page 4012

1 to bring another ethnic Albanian crime base witness who was not previously

2 scheduled to testify this week to The Hague. He will be arriving tomorrow

3 and will be available to testify on Friday.

4 We do not have another witness available at this time.

5 JUDGE PARKER: That was the clear implication, Mr. Saxon.

6 I think in the circumstances and due to the encouraging progress

7 made with time, we must adjourn now to resume tomorrow at 2.15 in the hope

8 that we will conclude these two witnesses on Thursday and Friday of this

9 week.

10 And I would ask the registry officer to explore with the technical

11 people the continuing problems -- problem of background interference that

12 we are receiving with the microphones.

13 Thank you.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.35 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of

16 August, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.