Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4649

1 Friday, 7 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused Boskoski entered court]

4 [The accused Tarculovski not present]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good morning to you all. Unfortunately,

8 Judge Parker is not able to sit today, so in application of Rule 15 bis,

9 Judge Thelin and myself will sit alone.

10 Good morning, sir. May I ask you to make the affirmation on the

11 card that is held in front of you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.

17 Ms. Residovic.

18 MS. REGUE: Good morning, Your Honours. For the record the

19 Prosecution is called witness, Aziz Rexhepi.

20 Examination by Ms. Regue:

21 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, do you recall providing a statement to the Office of

22 the Prosecutor in 2004?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall meeting with a lady from the registry in 2005 who

25 certified your prior statement?

Page 4650

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Have you had -- have you had the opportunity to read your

3 statement before coming here today?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you satisfied that its content is correct and accurate?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, the Prosecution will tender this

8 witness's statement following Rule 92 bis.

9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.

10 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, we will distribute some binders for Your

11 Honours and the Defence.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the statement is given Exhibit P432.

13 Thank you, Your Honours.


15 MS. REGUE: The witness, Aziz Rexhepi, is a Ljuboten resident of

16 Albanian ethnicity. On the 10th of August, 2001, around 8.00 a.m., the

17 witness heard shooting from the direction of Malistena which continue

18 until midday on the 11th.

19 Around 8.00 a.m. on the 12th of August, the shooting and shelling

20 recommence. The witness observed a smoke rise from the western part of

21 the village called Elezi. When he was sheltering at the neighbour's

22 basement he saw a Hermelin with a machine-gun mounted on top, stopping

23 near his house. Uniformed men set fire to a number of houses and fired

24 automatic weapons in the street. At one time he saw the police dragging

25 several men who had T-shirts pulled over their heads. The witness and

Page 4651

1 others sought to flee Ljuboten, and were stopped at the police check-point

2 where some of them were beaten. Then they were -- they were driven in a

3 police jeep to Butel police station where they could here from the jeep

4 screams coming from inside. They were finely taken to Prolece police

5 station where they were forced to walk through a gauntlet of policemen who

6 beat them with hard objects. In Prolece the witness was submitted to the

7 paraffin test. He was also beaten and his hands were tide on his back.

8 Around 1900 hours the following day, 13 August, the witness and

9 others were handcuffed and taken to Bit Pazar police station where they

10 were again beaten when leaving the police jeep. On the 14th, the witness

11 was transported to Skopje Court II where he briefly appeared before an

12 investigating judge and was then taken to Sutka prison. He remained there

13 for about four months.

14 Could we please call 65 ter 294, ERN N000-7647.

15 I believe it's the first -- yeah. It's the first sketch that have

16 you in your binders, Your Honours.

17 Should be the other way around.

18 Thanks. The other way around. Like that is okay.

19 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, did you draw this sketch showing your neighbourhood

20 in Ljuboten and signed it and dated it below the 6th of October, 2004?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In paragraph 10 of your statement, you mention that in point A you

23 indicated the position where you saw a Hermelin in the afternoon of the

24 12th of August. Point A that you mention in your statement is the letter

25 A that we see in the sketch?

Page 4652

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 MS. REGUE: For the record the letter A is just next to a square

3 with the name Aziz Rexhepi on it.

4 Q. And also in paragraph 11 of your statement, you explain that

5 several houses were set on fire by uniformed men from the Hermelin. And

6 you indicated also these houses in the sketch. Could you please read

7 aloud the name of the owners or inhabitants of these houses?

8 A. Yes. They are Qamuran Rexhepi, Avdulla Rexhepi, Harun Rexhepi,

9 and another one, a barn or something like that, which we call in Albanian.

10 Q. Who was the owner of this barn, because I think it was not

11 translated?

12 A. Shabi Lutfiu.

13 Q. Just for the record, what is the name of Qamuran Rexhepi's father?

14 A. Ismet Rexhepi.

15 Q. Were they living together in August in 2001?

16 A. Yes. They continued to live together.

17 Q. In paragraph 12 of your statement, you indicated with point B the

18 small street where you saw four to five soldiers who started to shoot

19 around with automatic rifles. Letter B that we see in the right side of

20 this sketch is the point B that you mentioned in your statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where were you when you were observing all these events?

23 A. At Xhafer Lutfiu in the basement.

24 MS. REGUE: For the record, the witness has mentioned

25 Xhafer Lutfiu which is the house depicted just across point B of the

Page 4653

1 sketch.

2 Your Honour, we will seek to tender this sketch into evidence.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lutfiu.


5 Q. I apologise.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P433, thank you Your Honours.


9 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, you mentioned in paragraph 12 of your statement that

10 you saw four to five soldiers. Do you know if these soldiers were members

11 of the police or were members of the army?

12 A. I don't know whether they belonged to the police or to the army,

13 but they were in uniform, camouflage uniform.

14 Q. Were you able to see any patch on the sleeves of the uniforms?

15 A. No. I wasn't in a position to be able to spot those patches, but

16 we saw they were in uniform, not the patches though.

17 Q. Thanks. You were charged with participating in an armed conflict

18 against the Macedonian forces between 8 and 12 hours in the

19 morning/afternoon of Sunday the 12th. According to your indictment you

20 used weapons and you tested positive in the paraffin test. Did you

21 participate in such military activities in the morning, afternoon of 12th

22 August, 2001?

23 A. I didn't at that stage and never in my life have I been a party to

24 these groups.

25 Q. Where were you between 8 and 12.00 in the morning -- afternoon of

Page 4654

1 Sunday 12th 2001.

2 A. At Xhafer Lutfiu's basement.

3 Q. Did you hold any weapon during that weekend?

4 A. No.

5 MS. REGUE: Your Honours for the record the indictment that you

6 have in -- I think it's the fourth -- the fourth document of your binder

7 is Exhibit P00050, ERN N002-0128-N002-0137.

8 Q. In Prolece, Mr. Rexhepi, were you interviewed in Prolece?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you ever stated that you saw terrorists fighting and shooting

11 against Macedonian forces in Ljuboten on Sunday, the 12th?

12 A. No.

13 MS. REGUE: For the record Your Honours, this interview is

14 described in Official Note 538, Exhibit P00050, ERN N002-0205. I believe

15 is the second document that you have in your binder.

16 Q. And finally, Mr. Rexhepi, in paragraph 26 of your statement you

17 mentioned that in Prolece the rooms were full with men from Ljuboten. How

18 many persons approximately were in every room.

19 A. I can't say exactly how many, but it would be in the region of ten

20 to 15. We weren't able to do the counting at that stage.

21 Q. And which were the size of the rooms that you saw?

22 A. I don't understand the question.

23 Q. Were the rooms big, small? How was the size of the rooms where

24 those people were?

25 A. How can I put it? Three by three, three and a half by three and a

Page 4655

1 half, but not bigger.

2 MS. REGUE: Thanks Your Honours. No further questions.

3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Ms. Ms. Regue.

4 Ms. Residovic.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Rexhepi.

8 Mr. Rexhepi, my name is Edina Residovic, I am together with my

9 colleague Guenael Mettraux, I'm the Defence counsel of Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

10 Prior to turning to asking you a series of questions, I see that

11 you understand my language, but nonetheless of you I would ask of you not

12 to respond immediately after having heard my question but to wait until my

13 question is translated so as the court chamber and my colleagues in the

14 courtroom can hear what I'm asking and what you are responding.

15 Do you understand me?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. You were born and live in Ljuboten. Is this correct?

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter was unable to hear the witness's

19 answer.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Could you please repeat your answer, because the interpreters were

22 unable to hear your response.

23 A. That is correct, I continue to live in that village, Ljuboten.

24 Q. Thank you. In 2001 you lived with your wife and your three

25 children?

Page 4656

1 A. Yes, that's correct. I continue to live with my wife and

2 children.

3 Q. At the time of the events about which my learned colleague from

4 the Prosecution inquired about from the 10th to the 12th, your wife was

5 not in the village because your brother had taken her to the doctors. Is

6 this correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Today, Mr. Rexhepi, you do not have a permanent job, but

9 nonetheless you work as a construction worker. Is this correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. As an inhabitant of Ljuboten you were aware that in the Republic

12 of Macedonia at the beginning of the year of 2001, there was a situation

13 of crisis, a state of crisis, as a result of the attacks of extreme

14 Albanian groups on the security forces of the army and civilians in

15 certain parts of Macedonia. Were you aware of this?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In particular, the situation was difficult in the areas of Tetovo

18 and Kumanovo. Is this correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Ljuboten is located on the hills of Skopska Crna Gora, and

21 Skopska Crna Gora links the areas of Kumanovo with the border of Kosovo.

22 Is this correct?

23 A. Yes. Because the mountain makes the connection. But from Kosova

24 to Ljuboten village there is a distance of about 50 kilometres.

25 Q. In view of the vicinity of the border and the vicinity of the

Page 4657

1 place where open hostilities existed, the importance of Ljuboten for the

2 security of the city of Skopje was of particular importance. Is this

3 correct?

4 A. I don't know. I don't know. In what way? What do you mean

5 exactly? I don't appear to understand it.

6 Q. The geographical position of Ljuboten is such that it is of

7 extreme importance for the security of Skopje in the case of probable

8 attacks of some groups as a result of which forces were deployed in that

9 part of Skopska Crna Gora and around the village of Ljuboten. Were you

10 aware of this?

11 A. No, I don't know. I'm not a military expert. I think military

12 experts are in a position to know this.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. This is an honest answer.

14 Tell me, were aware that as early as the onset of the crisis in

15 2001 one part of the population of Ljuboten joined to the NLA and took

16 part in the fighting in the surrounding villages?

17 A. No, that is not correct. In my village, I never saw anybody

18 holding weapons or anything of the sort.

19 Q. If I were to put it to you that some persons took -- from Ljuboten

20 took part in the fighting in Aracinovo and Tanusevci, then you could

21 concur with me that this was correct.

22 A. I don't know about it.

23 Q. Do you know that as of spring 2001 in the village observation and

24 control was organised for the entry of persons so as to prevent entry of

25 persons which the villagers would not want to see in their village?

Page 4658

1 A. Yes, there was a civilian staff which had basically been in the

2 knowledge or -- of which, rather, the Macedonian state -- the Macedonian

3 army and police were fully aware.

4 Q. Are you also aware, Mr. Rexhepi, that as of spring 2001, Ljuboten

5 has become an important logistic point for the NLA because of the large

6 ability to control the roads from Skopje and Kumanov and roads are used

7 through Ljuboten for the transportation of food, medication, arms,

8 ammunition for the units of NLA which are in Skopska Crna Gora?

9 A. No, I don't know.

10 Q. If I were to say that as of March 2001 part of the members of the

11 NLA came to the village to spread propaganda among the local population to

12 join the ranks of the NLA, then this information would be correct?

13 A. No, it wouldn't be correct. At least to the best of my knowledge.

14 Q. The majority of the young people actively joined the NLA and

15 became its members, and many of the people of Ljuboten were very

16 sympathetic towards the NLA.

17 A. As far as I'm concerned, that is not correct. I was not aware of

18 it.

19 Q. Do you know Kenan Salievski, the president of the Crisis Staff?

20 A. Yes, I know him as a fellow villager. Yes, I do.

21 Q. At this time, he was the president of the village and the

22 president of the Crisis Staff.

23 A. I know him as a human being. I did not know him as someone

24 belonging to any Crisis Staff or anything of the sort.

25 Q. Just earlier you said that you knew of the existence of such a

Page 4659

1 staff in the village. Do you know who presided over the staff?

2 A. I wasn't quite keen to know the name and surname of the president

3 of the staff. I was, however, interested in the existence of this staff.

4 Again, I wasn't interested in who presided over it.

5 Q. Kenan Salievski for whom your village is confirmed that he had

6 been the president of the Crisis Staff, in his statement given on the 6th

7 of November and 7th of November, 2004, this is 65 ter 1D85, page 1D1186,

8 he said the following, perhaps this will refresh your memory: "Ljuboten

9 village representative decide."

10 [Interpretation] I apologise. There is only an English version of

11 this statement. I will then read it out in English, and you will receive

12 a translation in your native language.

13 In page 3, on page 1D886, Salievski has said: "[In English]

14 Ljuboten village representatives decided to create crisis group to take

15 the problems concerning harassment of the villages by military and police

16 personnel at the check-point and surround the village since approximately

17 May up to 2001 had a May of 2001."

18 [Interpretation] Later in the next statement, in the next

19 sentence, it reads about the composition, and I'm reading the following

20 sentence to you, "[In English] The President of the Crisis group for

21 protection of civilian from our village, then I was also given the

22 responsibility of the major of the village. The village council decide

23 that I should continue with my activity as a major until the ICTY finish

24 the investigation on Ljuboten case."

25 [Interpretation] Has this served to refresh your memory that

Page 4660

1 Salievski Kenan carried out the duties listed -- that he listed to the

2 investigator of the Prosecution?

3 A. It doesn't. I'm not aware of the duties that he carried out, and

4 I'm here to answer the questions that are you to ask of me. I'm not aware

5 of that.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours in line 17 of the

7 previous page, the page number was wrongly stated. It should be

8 N000-86 -- 1D1186 is the correct number. It can be seen on the screen. I

9 am mentioning this just for the corrections that are to be introduced in

10 the transcript.

11 Q. However, you have no reason not to believe Mr. Kenan Salievski.

12 Is this correct?

13 A. In what way? How could I believe it without having been able to

14 see it with my own eyes. That's something I don't know. How can I

15 believe that?

16 Q. In view of the fact that you have said that there were no members

17 of the NLA in Ljuboten, if Kenan Salievski were to say, regardless of

18 whether according to the best of your knowledge president or not of the

19 Crisis Staff, if he had said the following. I would ask this be put --

20 the same 1D1193 is the page, point 40. 1D1193, item 40:

21 [In English] Being asked who from Ljuboten villagers were members

22 of NLA, I say this: Suat Saliu, Riza Jonuzi, Besim Murtezani, Rafiz

23 Bajrami, Shefajet Bajrami, Fikret Aliu, Nehmet Aliu, Orhan Jashari -- or

24 Bajrami, Ramadan Alimi, killed in Matejce mountains, Musa Selimi,

25 Refedin Selimi, Faik Murati, Shefket Murati, Zekir Murati, and Rasim

Page 4661

1 Murati. I think they were about 18 people, but I don't know all names."

2 [Interpretation] Did you know or do you know now having read these

3 to you that these persons were members of the NLA in 2001 even before the

4 events in Ljuboten of the 10th to the 12th of August?

5 A. No, I didn't know then, and I don't know now that these were

6 members. I can't say if they were members or not of the NLA.

7 Q. Do you know Suat Saliu?

8 A. As a person, yes.

9 Q. Do you know that he was a member of the NLA?

10 A. No.

11 Q. I would ask that the witness be shown 65 ter 1D507, page 1D4669.

12 This is the English version, and the Macedonian, 1676, point 7, 1D4676.

13 This is the Macedonian version.

14 Suat Saliu told the Prosecutor of the OTP on the 25th of March,

15 2003, the following. In point 7 you see the second paragraph where he

16 says: "[In English] 27 Young men from Ljuboten be the 115 Brigade. I

17 remember the names of some of them. They are Riza Jonuzi, Islam Zendeli,

18 Rasim Murati, Arsim Elezi, Faredin Murati, Faik Murati, Shefajet Bajrami,

19 Besim Murtezani, Jetulla Arifi, Bekri Ajdini, Orhan Bajrami,

20 Shefket Murati, Refedin Selimi, Feriz Selimi, Suat Saliu, and

21 Rafiz Bajrami."

22 [Interpretation] Mr. Rexhepi, do you know see that also the

23 statement of this witness differs from your claims that there were no

24 members of the NLA among the villagers and in the village?

25 A. Perhaps there were, but personally I have no knowledge of it.

Page 4662

1 Q. Do you know today that these persons were members of the NLA?

2 A. No, I cannot confirm what you're saying.

3 Q. Do you know Zemri Zendeli, the hoxha from your village?

4 A. Yes, as a hoxha. He is the hoxha of the village.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Know that he too was a member

6 of the NLA?

7 A. This I don't know. I only know that he was injured. Whether he

8 was a soldier or not, that I don't know.

9 Q. Do you know Halimi Baki also known as Commander Lisi?

10 A. I know Baki Halimi, but not as Lisi. I know him as Baki Halimi,

11 the teacher.

12 Q. Recently, in the month of August in Ljuboten, a monument has been

13 unveiled to the persons deceased from Ljuboten. Is this correct?

14 A. Yes, correct.

15 Q. And as a mason worker, you contributed to the construction of this

16 monument is this correct?

17 A. Of course, because they were my fellow villagers.

18 Q. And you know that on the occasion of the unveiling of this

19 monument many invitees came outside of the village of Ljuboten, including

20 Ali Ahmeti, the leader of the NLA?

21 A. Yes. He was there.

22 Q. In addition to Ali Ahmeti, Halimi Baki also addressed the people,

23 Commander Lisi. Is this correct?

24 A. No, that's not correct. He did not mention lis or mal or dru. He

25 didn't mention anything.

Page 4663

1 Q. Are you saying that Baki Halimi did not speak on this occasion?

2 A. He did, but he did not mention lis, meaning oak, mal, meaning

3 mountain, or dru meaning tree. He only spoke of the victims from Ljuboten

4 village, those who were massacred.

5 Q. My apologies, I wasn't there. I don't know what Commander Lisi

6 spoke about. My question was merely whether he spoke and addressed the

7 present villagers?

8 A. You asked me if he mentioned Lisi. He did not mention any name of

9 that kind.

10 Q. You said that you were not aware that Baki Halimi had the name

11 Commander Lisi. My question is: Do you know that he was, in effect, the

12 main link liaison of the NLA from the village. As a teacher he spread

13 propagation and mobilised and armed the people of Ljuboten?

14 A. This I don't know. I know him only as a teacher. As to what

15 you're asking me, I have no knowledge of it.

16 Q. I would once again ask that witness be shown 65 ter 1D885 page

17 1D1186. This is the statement which I had already shown to you and of

18 Kenan Salievski. In point 5, Kenan Salievski. This is can be --

19 Let's wait for the text to appear on the screen.

20 Kenan Salievski says to the investigator of the OTP: "The only

21 person who had real contacts with the NLA was Baki Halimi; alias

22 Commandant Lisi from our village. Halimi was for a long time hiding his

23 activities, but I found out that he had contacts with NLA, Saliu Naim,

24 Rexhepi Supi, both from Ljuboten told me about Halimi's contact with NLA

25 because they were close to him."

Page 4664

1 On the following page and that is 1D1187, Kenan Salievski says the

2 following: "Halimi Baki was also invited to this meeting as well as Naim

3 Saliu."

4 And the last two sentences in this paragraph: "Baki Halimi and

5 Naim Saliu were disappointed that we would like to get in touch with

6 Macedonian police. They told that we can do whatever we want regarding

7 civilian from the village, but not interfere in there their connection

8 with NLA."

9 [Interpretation] Do you agree that it is clear from this statement

10 that Baki Halimi did not allow anyone to interfere in the link between the

11 population -- between the inhabitants and the NLA except of himself. Are

12 you aware that he was the main liaison with the NLA?

13 A. No, I don't know this.

14 Q. Do you know who Commander Miskoja is?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. In your statement to the OTP, you said that you heard on the

17 10th of August, 2001 that the shelling and firing towards the village

18 began from the location of Malistena?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Prior to that, you were aware that at Ljubotenski Bacila location

21 eight members of the army of the Republic of Macedonia were killed in a

22 mine incident and six others were injured. Is this correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you knew that immediately after this incident certain armed

25 persons entered the village. Do you know this?

Page 4665

1 A. I don't know who you mean by "armed persons," and which day you

2 refer to.

3 Q. I'm talking about the 10th, Friday. After the mine explosion,

4 three armed persons entered the village in the area of the Zendeli

5 compound.

6 A. I have no knowledge about this.

7 Q. In your statement to the OTP in paragraph 6 you said that you

8 immediately went to the Crisis Staff and informed them that there were

9 already ten dead persons in the village. Is this correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct. However, I knew that there were no persons

11 killed except for the six- or seven-year-old child.

12 Q. However, you said that there were ten persons who were dead in the

13 village. Is this correct?

14 A. This is correct, but what I meant was to undertake some measures

15 in order for the shelling to stop.

16 Q. If I were to tell you that in order to draw attention to something

17 as you wanted to do in this case with the Crisis Staff, to draw the

18 attention for the current situation, to exaggerate certain facts that you

19 exaggerated certain facts, that would be correct in this case, right?

20 A. I exaggerated because as soon as I saw the state in which this

21 body of this child was, I was totally confused.

22 Q. After the meeting at the Crisis Staff, Commander Lisi distributed

23 weapons and ammunition to some young people and said that check-points

24 should be set up in order to prevent any entry in the village. Are you

25 aware of this?

Page 4666

1 A. No, I'm not.

2 Q. At the time the standing order was for the women and the children

3 to hide, shelter in the basements, while the men, to man the check-points

4 and to be on the streets. Is this correct?

5 A. No, this is not correct. We hid in the basements without

6 previously being organised.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: I would like to show the witness document 65 ter

8 1D567 -- 507, correction. This is the statement of Suad Saliu. The page

9 number is 1D4669 and 1D4670.

10 Q. In paragraph 8, on page 1D4670, Suad Saliu states the following:

11 "[In English] At about 9.00 in the morning all of us in the group of the

12 men from Ljuboten and the fighters from the Teli's group received an order

13 to leave for Nikustak. There were about 30 fighters in Teli's group. In

14 Nikustak, we received ammunition. From Nikustak we continued our way to

15 Ljuboten. Some volunteers joined us in Nikustak, in total we were about

16 70 fighters."

17 [Interpretation] And further down in paragraph 9 Saliu says: "[In

18 English] As Macedonian forces were about to enter the village, Hoxha Limaj

19 ordered to open fire. They obviously discussed the situation with Bushi

20 with whom they were in contact from mobile phone. About six or seven

21 mortar rounds were fired. Our mortars target the army position. I think

22 that five rounds missed the target while two hit the army position."

23 [Interpretation] Do you know, Mr. Rexhepi, that the NLA members

24 from the village on that Sunday went to the village and that they opened

25 fire against the army positions of the Republic of Macedonia?

Page 4667

1 A. I'm telling you that there were no fighters in the village. What

2 you're saying is lies.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. On that day, Sunday, 12th August, as you

4 told the Prosecutor in your statement, Idriz Lutfieski informed you that

5 the Macedonians were again firing towards the village. Is this correct?

6 A. Yes. He is my brother. I was asleep, and he woke me up.

7 Q. And at that moment, in the western part of the village you saw

8 smoke, and that's why you decided to go to your other house and to set the

9 cattle free?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. But you didn't reach the other house, but you stayed for a while

12 in the house of Shabi Lutfiu with him, you stayed with him and his son.

13 This is what you said in your statement in paragraph 8. Is this correct?

14 ?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. I would like to show the witness Prosecution Exhibit P433. This

17 used to be document number 65 ter 294.

18 This is a drawing made by you, a scheme that you made, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I would kindly ask you now to use the pen - maybe the usher could

21 assist you - and mark the house where you arrived; that is, the house of

22 Lutfiu Shabi.

23 Did you mark this house with red?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would kindly ask to you put number 1 near that house.

Page 4668

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Is that correct that in the vicinity of that house that houses of

3 his relatives, cousins, are also located because it is traditional for

4 these village houses, for families to live in houses next to one another?

5 A. Yes, that's our tradition.

6 Q. And this house where you stayed with Shabi has an entrance from

7 this small lane. Is that correct?

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 Q. We haven't heard the answer. Is it correct that this is the way

10 to enter the house?

11 A. You can enter this house from the main road, but also from an

12 auxiliary road.

13 Q. At this corner, between the main street and this small street,

14 there is a wall which fences this yard of the Lutfiu compound. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Correct. It's not a wall; rather, two houses and one barn. But

17 there is a small wall, yes.

18 Q. And you actually observed what was happening in the main street

19 hidden behind that wall. Is that correct?

20 A. No, we were inside, in the house, but we could go outside as well

21 to see what was going on.

22 Q. However, from that spot and even if you went out of the house to

23 that small lane, you could not see these armed people entering the

24 village, at the beginning of the actual village.

25 A. No, no, the entry to the village was far. We couldn't see

Page 4669

1 anything when they entered here, in this part, we fled, because we heard

2 firing, shots.

3 Q. So when you said in your statement that there was quite a number

4 of people wearing uniforms with a Hermelin at the entrance into the

5 village, that was just your surmising, guessing. You could not have seen

6 that?

7 A. I couldn't see the entry to the village, but I saw at point marked

8 with A and marked with B, because the entry to the village is about one

9 kilometre far. There I saw flames and smoke coming up.

10 Q. So when in paragraph 10 you stated: "[In English] Arrived to the

11 village, there were a big number of police officers, about 40 or so,

12 walking behind the Hermelin vehicle."

13 [Interpretation] So you actually did not see the Hermelin entering

14 the village?

15 A. No, that's not true. I saw it.

16 Q. At the moment when you saw the Hermelin entering the village,

17 where were you located?

18 A. At Xhafer Lutfiu's house.

19 Q. How far is the -- Xhafer Lutfiu's house from the entrance into the

20 village?

21 A. The entry to the village is about one kilometre far. I'm talking

22 about the entry to the small road leading to our houses, not for the entry

23 to the village.

24 Q. Are you now clarifying the sentence that you gave to the

25 Prosecutor, so you were referring not to the entrance into the village but

Page 4670

1 to the entrance into this street, not far from your house. Is that what

2 you're saying?

3 A. What I've drawn here on this scheme refers to the entry to our

4 street or road, not to the entry to the village.

5 Q. Thank you. Where exactly were you at the moment when that vehicle

6 was approaching your house? Were you at the basement at that moment?

7 A. I wasn't in my house. I was in Xhafer Lutfiu's house.

8 Q. So at a given moment in time, at some moment, you transferred from

9 the house of Shabi Lutfiu and went into the house of Xhafer Lutfiu. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. That's correct. Because there were more people gathered there.

12 Q. But you forgot to mention this fact to the investigator of the

13 OTP. Is that correct?

14 A. I didn't go into details to mention minutes and seconds.

15 Q. But when you stated to the Prosecutor that you arrived to

16 Shabi Lutfiu's house in paragraph 2, you stated that you stayed there with

17 him and with his son for the entire duration of time.

18 So you forgot to mention that at some moment you transferred from

19 Shabi Lutfiu's into Xhafer Lutfiu's house. Is that correct?

20 A. No. In my statement to the OTP, I stated that I stayed for a

21 short time in Shabi Lutfiu's house, and then I went to Xhafer Lutfiu's

22 house.

23 Q. Could you mark with the number 2 the house of Xhafer Lutfiu here

24 in this sketch?

25 A. [Marks]

Page 4671

1 Q. And you were in the basement of this house together with some

2 20 -- 20, 30, other persons, women, men and children. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. And the women and children were afraid. They were crying and

5 screaming. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. You, the men, were calming them down, and you spent the entire

8 time in the basement. You did not go out. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. And the first time you went out was around 1.00 or 2.00, when you

11 thought that there was no one in the street anymore. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's right. After the military forces or police forces

13 left, that's right, that's what happened.

14 Q. And from that basement you could only hear the shooting. You

15 could not see who was shooting. Is that correct?

16 A. No. There are windows there one is able to see out. We were able

17 to see everything.

18 Q. So the windows of Xhafer Lutfiu's basement are actually at the

19 ground floor of the house. Is that correct?

20 A. [No interpretation]

21 Q. Could you now use the pen and mark where are the windows of

22 Xhafer Lutfiu's house, of the basement?

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. And can you mark where is the wall around this part of the yard of

25 Xhafer Lutfiu's compound?

Page 4672

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Could you please mark it with the number 3 so that we know that

3 this is the wall.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 I would like to ask you now about something else.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before I continue with the

8 questions, Your Honour, I seek to tender this sketch as Defence exhibit.

9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D150.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Your Honours, my colleague rightfully reminds me although the

13 second one has already been received since the witness drew the -- or

14 marked the location of the window, I would kindly ask him to mark it with

15 the number 4.

16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: If you could do that, sir.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you very much. You stated that you and a group of villagers

20 on a tractor arrived to the check-point. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, it's correct.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, obviously again a

23 suggestion came. Considering that the document I tendered as exhibit did

24 not contain the number 4, I would like to ask that this sketch bearing now

25 the number 4 replaces the previous one. Otherwise there would be two

Page 4673

1 documents in the e-court, I believe.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Only the last one has been saved, and

4 that one includes number 4.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

6 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, in the afternoon you and some 20 other villagers came

7 to the check-point, Kodra e Zajmit, is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. And at the moment you arrived there, there was no one at the

10 check-point any longer. Is that correct?

11 A. No, no, there were a lot of people there. There were a lot, but

12 there was no one at the check-point. The people were about, 100 or 150

13 metres away from the check-point.

14 Q. So when you stated in paragraph 17: "[In English] There were no

15 other people from Ljuboten at that location," [Interpretation] then this

16 would not be the truth. Is that correct?

17 A. What location do you have in mind?

18 Q. You stated that you and some 20, 30 people, women and children,

19 riding on a tractor, arrived at the Kodra e Zajmit check-point, at

20 Ljubotenski road. You were stopped by five, six, police officers who were

21 wearing masks. You do not know what patches they had, but they checked

22 you up, and they told the men to climb down from the tractor. That was

23 around 6.00, 6.30 in the afternoon and then in paragraph 17 you state:

24 "[In English] At that time stage, there were no other people from Ljuboten

25 at that location."

Page 4674

1 [Interpretation] So ...

2 A. Because I say that you don't know where the civilian population

3 used to be?

4 Q. At the check-point, where you arrived, there were no other people

5 there except for you who arrived with that tractor from Ljuboten. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. There was no one at the check-point. However, 100 or 200 metres

8 away from the check-point, the civilian population was there. Everybody

9 was lying on the ground.

10 Q. But you did not say this when Prosecutor asked you?

11 A. He did not ask me.

12 Q. You stated then that some blue police jeep arrived. And in

13 paragraph 17 you stated the following: "[In English] There was a blue

14 police jeep and myself together with Ramiz Xhaviti, Burhan Murtezani,

15 Murtezan Murtezani, Nehat Murtezani, and some two or three other men were

16 put into that jeep."

17 [Interpretation] Is that correct, that you stated this?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. So you were in the same jeep together with these jeep --

20 A. In the same tractor, we were in the same tractor. We were

21 together in the same tractor, and the very same people went into the same

22 jeep.

23 Q. If Baskim Murtezani had said in his statement -- or, actually

24 would fail to mention that you were in the same jeep with him, then these

25 statements are different.

Page 4675

1 A. I said and mentioned the people that I saw and that I knew.

2 However, I also mentioned the fact that there were two or three other

3 people that I did not know, and I don't remember who they were.

4 Q. Baskim Murtezani, in his statement to the Prosecutor of October

5 2nd, 2004, states: "[In English] [Previous translation continues] ...

6 Burhan, Riaz, Murtezan, Ramiz -- were then taken to police van."

7 [Interpretation] As you can see, he does not mention you as a

8 person having been taking to this van. Is that correct?

9 A. I haven't mentioned everybody either. I was saying that there

10 were two or three other people that I was unable to see. I don't know if

11 they were 10 or 20.

12 Q. However, do you know Ajrullai Hazbi?

13 A. Yes, I do. He is a cousin of mine.

14 Q. If Ajrullai Hazbi in his statement of 29th of September, 2004, in

15 item -- in paragraph 8 would state: "[In English] Check-point about half

16 an hour and then the police van start to arrive. I was put to a van

17 together with my cousin Faredin Ajrullai who at this point is living -- is

18 Ismail Selimi, son of Adnan, Pakma Sadiko [phoen], father's brother --

19 Sadiko and Murtezan whose name -- family name I don't know. He was

20 mentally disabled. We were first taken to Butel station. In the yard

21 were a lot of civilians and reservist police officer."

22 [Interpretation] So is this statement a bit different from yours,

23 because Ajrullai Hazbi, as you can see, asserts that Murtezan Murtezani

24 was with him at the Butel police station. Is this something that is

25 different from what you are saying, that Murtezan Murtezani was with you

Page 4676

1 and was immediately taken to Prolece police station?

2 A. No. Murtezan Murtezani is a different person; i.e., the person

3 you are referring to as being mentally disabled is a completely different

4 person.

5 Q. And that person was not with you?

6 A. Which person?

7 Q. That person that was mentally disabled.

8 A. No. Murtezan Murtezani was not with me, and the person I'm

9 referring to is a completely different one.

10 Q. After Bit Pazar --

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

12 Q. At the Bit Pazar police station, you were not ill-treated in any

13 way. Is that correct?

14 A. On the entrance to the police station, yes, I was mistreated, and

15 I have a lot of pain on my right-hand side from that day onwards.

16 Q. When you left the detention at the beginning of January 2002, you

17 made a statement to the representatives of the international community.

18 Is that correct?

19 A. There's a lot of members of the international community. I don't

20 know what you're referring to.

21 Q. OSCE, you gave a statement to them. Is that correct? That was on

22 the 6th of January, 2002.

23 A. We did not ask them to show themselves to tell us what

24 organisation they belonged to. We made numerous statements. If I were to

25 read it, perhaps I would be able to recall it.

Page 4677

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well. I would kindly ask that the witness is

2 shown 65 ter.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the number.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 1D5010.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter kindly asks the counsel to

6 repeat the 65 ter number. I apologise but I did not get it.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 1D548, and the page is

8 1D5010. In Macedonian, the page is 1D5014.

9 Q. In paragraph 11, the item 11, can you see item 11? It says

10 TB 017, 6th of January 2002, and the name there is Aziz Rexhepi, Ljuboten.

11 That would be you?

12 A. Yes, that is my name.

13 Q. I would like to ask you -- I would like to ask that the next page

14 is shown, 1D5011, while the Macedonian is 1D5015. And in the

15 next-before-the-last paragraph, part of your statement is quoted, and in

16 the next-before-the-last paragraph it is stated: "[In English] [Previous

17 translation continues] ... 23 hours, three other men from Ljuboten and me,

18 and were taken to the police station in Bit Pazar where we were not

19 beaten, but we were denied water and food."

20 [Interpretation] Is that correct, do you see this?

21 A. Inside the station we were not beaten. However, as we were

22 entering, as we were entering, and as is when they put us in two lines to

23 let get us in, they beat us there and -- however, when we were in, we were

24 denied water but not beaten any further.

25 Q. After that, you were taken to the Basic Court II in Skopje. Was

Page 4678

1 that what you said in your testimony to the Prosecutor?

2 Were you taken to the court?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. And you were questioned by the judge, Jovan Lazarevski. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. I don't know what he was called. I never asked about his name.

7 Q. The judge informed you about your right to have an attorney

8 present, and he suggested that an ex officio attorney is appointed for you

9 if you are not able to retain an attorney yourself. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes that's correct.

11 Q. And you wanted to choose your own attorney. You first asked that

12 the attorney Nimani [phoen] represents you. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that is right. Yes, it is.

14 Q. However, since this attorney was not there, was not in Skopje at

15 that moment, you were given the opportunity to speak to your family and

16 then asked them to select an attorney for you. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. Your family selected Sasko Dukovski, an attorney from Skopje, who

19 came and was present at the moment when the court questioned you. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. And you did not mention before the court that you were beaten, and

23 you did not say anything from the statement given to this court about what

24 allegedly happened to you on the road and at the police stations Prolece

25 and Bit Pazar. Is that correct?

Page 4679

1 A. They saw who they were and what condition we were. We did tell

2 everything by the typist and the others there certainly didn't put

3 everything down. I don't think that everything that we said was

4 faithfully written down on paper.

5 Q. I would like to ask that the witness is shown the Exhibit P52,

6 paragraph 10.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe before the

8 document is displayed, it would be the convenient time for the break.

9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes, I think so, Ms. Residovic.

10 We will now have a break until 11.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 I would now ask that the witness be shown evidence P52.10 --

15 THE INTERPRETER: 92.10, correction.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 52.10. The page is N001-9897-26.

17 The Macedonian -- this is the Macedonian version. The English one is page

18 1 of the same document.

19 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, you see the first page of the minutes of the -- the

20 court minutes. Are these -- is this information given here that you're

21 Rexhepi Aziz, father Abedin, mother Gjunas born on the 16th of October,

22 1961, Albanian by nationality. Is this you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I would now ask that you look at page N001-9897-28. The English

25 version page 4.

Page 4680

1 Do you recognise your signature of these -- on these minutes,

2 Mr. Rexhepi?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in the last passage of these minutes, it reads: "I have

5 nothing further to state, having been advised of Article 78 of the Code of

6 Criminal Procedure, I state that I do not want to read it, to read the

7 minutes. The minutes have been dictated out loud, and I do not object to

8 it, and I signed it in person."

9 Do you see that this is written here?

10 A. What does your question refer to?

11 Q. First my question is: Do you see that this is written here, that

12 have you stated this and you have signed this?

13 A. Yes, I can see that.

14 Q. Earlier you said that the minutes -- the judge did not enter into

15 the minutes everything which you had said, from the statement, one can see

16 that did you not object to what the judge entered into the minutes. Is

17 this correct?

18 A. Even if I objected to it the result would have been the same.

19 Q. Please now look at the previous page. This is N001-9897-27. This

20 is the English version, page 2 of the English version.

21 Here in paragraph 4 of your statement you said that in reference

22 to Article 63 of the Code of Criminal Procedure, that have you the right

23 to a defence attorney, that you had stated that you had wanted to engage

24 an attorney and that for now you engage Sasko Dukovski, attorney from

25 Skopje, with power of attorney.

Page 4681

1 Is this the attorney who was present during your hearing?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And this attorney did not object to the content of the minutes,

4 nor did note that the minutes did not include everything which you spoke

5 in front of the judge. Is this correct?

6 A. I don't know if he was aware of that or not.

7 Q. The attorney was present and heard the dictation of the minutes,

8 just as you. Is this correct?

9 A. I don't remember if the attorney was there when the minutes were

10 read to me. I don't remember if he was present or not.

11 Q. In your statement you said that your attorney had arrived, that

12 with him you spoke prior to having given the statement to the

13 prosecutor -- not to the prosecutor but to the judge, rather, and that

14 your attorney was present. Do you remember having said something to this

15 extent?

16 A. No, I don't remember this. We waited for the attorney for almost

17 an hour and a half.

18 Q. Please tell us, Mr. Rexhepi, if I read point 37 of your statement

19 given to the Prosecutor, it would read, after previously having explained

20 how you waited for your attorney, you say: "[Previous translation

21 continues] ... [In English] Ask me to wait to talk to the investigating

22 judge and then come back to me, he told me that there was nothing that he

23 could do at that stage, and then everything had been settled in the way

24 that I would definitely have to stay in prison for at least 30 days. We

25 then went to see the judge, and he read the indictment again. I could do

Page 4682

1 nothing but smile."

2 [Interpretation] Is it correct that when you went in with the

3 attorney that it was then that you were told why -- of what you were a

4 suspect of and that then you gave the statement. Is this correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Very well. If the judge that heard you out also claims that

7 neither you nor your attorney did not propose for additional activities to

8 be carried out, then this would also be correct. Is this so?

9 A. Could you please repeat your question.

10 Q. If this judge, Jovan Lazarevski, in his statement given to the

11 Prosecutor on the 14th and 19th of December, 2005, if he in his statement

12 said that neither you nor your attorney had the possibility to propose,

13 to -- for evidence to be introduced but that this was not done, then this

14 would also be correct. Is this so?

15 A. I'm not clear on your question again. Ask me precisely.

16 Q. Very well. Did you propose to the judge that persons be heard

17 that could confirm to the judge that it is correct that you were abused?

18 A. I told the judge that we were being ill-treated in the premises of

19 the court.

20 Q. In your statement, in the statement given to the Prosecutor, the

21 judge states that: "[Previous translation continues] [English] ... The

22 public prosecutor recommended that we do so. That means that --

23 [Interpretation] It means the hearing of some witnesses. That is

24 to say, you did not recommend to the judge that anything else be done so

25 as to confirm the correctness and the accuracy of what you are saying.

Page 4683

1 A. I'm not clear on your question yet again. I don't know to what

2 you specifically refer.

3 Q. To my question, Mr. Rexhepi, you responded that the judge, that

4 the judge did not enter into the minutes everything which you had said.

5 Is this what you said to me?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Also, you said that neither you nor your attorney did not object

8 to the minutes because, as you yourself said, this would not have changed

9 anything in the situation. Is this correct?

10 A. The lawyer said to me, when he came out for the first time, he

11 came to ask me first and then went to the investigative judge. When he

12 left his office, he told me, Even if I was in your position, I wouldn't

13 have anything left to do.

14 Q. Because of this, you did not object anything to the judge about

15 the minutes. Is this correct?

16 A. Of course.

17 Q. And because of this, you did not recommend to the judge, you did

18 not propose to the judge that other persons be heard so as the court can

19 establish what the truth is. Is this correct?

20 A. At that moment, in that court, there was nothing.

21 MS. REGUE: I will kindly ask if the questions can be broken down

22 in two parts when two questions are put in one single question, because

23 the witness might be answering to the last question when there are

24 actually two questions in one, so ...

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered

Page 4684

1 to the question. I don't see the need it repeat the question, Your

2 Honours.

3 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Previous translation continues] ... Take

4 that into account for future questions, Ms. Residovic.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. When you entered the courtroom, no injuries were visible on your

7 person. Is this correct?

8 A. Well, if you say so, but I was all with bruises. Now you analyse

9 for yourself how injured I was.

10 Q. Your attorney did not request that -- that this be entered into

11 the minutes that such injuries were visible on your person. Is this

12 correct?

13 A. I already told you that the lawyer said to me, Even if I was in

14 your shoes, the same thing would have happened to me. This is what he

15 meant, that even if he were me in this situation, there wouldn't have been

16 anything that he could do.

17 Q. Well, after the pardon of the president you left detention

18 custody, you did not go then to the police, not even then, to the

19 prosecution, or to the courts, to submit a criminal charge, to file a

20 criminal charge, against those persons who ill-treated you. Is this

21 correct?

22 A. We didn't go there. Who could we object to? The state, the very

23 state that ill-treated us, that arrested us? This objections can be only

24 made to the international community, not to the state who is the actual

25 doer.

Page 4685

1 Q. And as you had said earlier and you repeated it now, from about

2 the events you spoke only to international representatives and the

3 Prosecution of this Tribunal. Is this correct?

4 A. There were many representatives in the village, and we didn't ask

5 of anyone to tell us to which organisation they belonged and which

6 organisation they represented.

7 Q. And none of these persons with whom you spoke with did not tell

8 you or advise you that you should go to the Prosecutor's office and to

9 file their submission, a charge, and to tell them what had happened to

10 you. Is this correct?

11 A. Only Mr. Ljube Boskoski may know that, because he saw everything

12 how it happened. He could have brought to justice the doers, and the

13 entire responsibility could have been taken by members of the Republic of

14 Macedonia.

15 Q. My question was, and please answer my question, whether these

16 numerous international representatives with whom you spoke with told you

17 that you should go to the public prosecutor's office or the courts and to

18 submit a criminal report there, and to tell them of what had happened to

19 you. Did they advise you to do this?

20 A. No, they didn't. However, we tried to go there, but nobody wanted

21 to admit us, to accept us, none of the lawyers.

22 Q. Tell me, Mr. Rexhepi, which attorney did you go to see?

23 A. There are many lawyers. I don't remember their names, but none of

24 them wanted to receive us for the criminal charges that we wanted to file.

25 Q. Thank you. Tell me now, in short, after the signing of the peace

Page 4686

1 of the framework agreement, neither you nor your other cohabitants did not

2 want to talk with the police due to the lack of trust which you had in

3 them. Is this correct?

4 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I think that this witness can only speak

5 by himself not by the other members of the community.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, did you -- after the attainment of peace, did you or

8 the members of your family at any given time wanted to speak with the

9 police, or did you refuse to talk with them due to the lack of trust about

10 which you have just spoken?

11 A. After the peace agreement, this lack of trust more or less faded,

12 and we did cooperate with the police.

13 Q. Do you know, Mr. Rexhepi, that on two additional occasions after

14 2001 a search was conducted in the area around Ljuboten, in near Basinec

15 and in October 2005 in the village of Ljuboten itself.

16 A. What search do you have in mind?

17 Q. The search in the first time where -- in the first time five

18 automatic and one semi-automatic gun was found in Basinec, and not far

19 from the new mosque 30 hand-grenades were found and six automatic guns

20 were found.

21 MS. REGUE: [Previous translation continues] ... Four years after

22 the indictment.

23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes, I think we should stay within the

24 scope of the indictment, Ms. Residovic.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours the indictment claims

Page 4687

1 that we have a peaceful village in question inhabited only by people who

2 work in agriculture before and after, and I believe it is relevant to know

3 whether before and after there were persons in Ljuboten who threatened the

4 security as a result of which it may have been legitimate to undertake

5 kind actions.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes, but taking it to 2005 is very long

7 after the indictment period, so I would suggest you to focus more on the

8 period just after then, 2001.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much then. I have no further

10 questions.

11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.

12 Ms. Zivkovic.

13 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Zivkovic:

15 Q. Good afternoon Mr. Rexhepi, my name Jasmina Zivkovic, and together

16 with Antonio Apostolski, I'm the Defence attorney of Mr. Johan

17 Tarculovski?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

19 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation].

20 Q. Mr. Rexhepi is it correct that you served your military service in

21 Nis in 1984 to 1985.

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. Were you trained in using infantry weapons?

24 A. Yes. I underwent such training. I was a communications officer.

25 Q. Today, answering the questions of my colleagues you mentioned that

Page 4688

1 you were at Prolece police station. Could you tell us whether it was

2 where the paraffin glove test was taken?

3 A. The paraffin glove test was carried out at Prolece.

4 Q. And you know that this is a test that ascertains whether fire-arms

5 were used. A test that police uses for that. Are you aware of this?

6 A. Yes, I am. But it depends on how you carry out that paraffin

7 test. Our heads were under the table, and our hands on the table and

8 there was a towel thrown over our hands?

9 Q. Very well. And you were told that your test was positive. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you know that everyone whose tests were negative were set free.

13 Is that correct?

14 A. When using a towel you can say how just was this paraffin glove

15 test, how reliable.

16 Q. I would kindly ask you to answer my question. Do you know that

17 persons for whom the test was negative were set free?

18 A. Yes, I know.

19 Q. Thank you. In the Basic Court Skopje II, when you went there on

20 Tuesday evening, you were read the indictment that you were indicted as

21 member of hostile army, that you had shot at members of the Macedonian

22 security forces, and after that you disarmed. Do you remember having said

23 that?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: That you disposed of

25 the weapons after that. The interpretation continues: Do you remember

Page 4689

1 that this was read to you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was read to me, but there was

3 nothing I could do, only smile.

4 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And after you spent four months in the remand prison in Sutka, you

6 were set free, and this was based on the -- the decision on pardoning by

7 President Trajkovski. You were pardoned as a member of the terrorist

8 group NLA. Is that correct?

9 MS. REGUE: Your Honours that is not the first time I objected to

10 this issue, but if we could distinguish between a terrorist group and NLA

11 because this is an issue here at this stage, so ...

12 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but the decision on

13 presidential pardon that President Trajkovski issued for everyone who were

14 arrested then, and who were released, this is how it reads: That they

15 were released -- that they released as members of the terrorist NLA. This

16 is part of the wording of the decision. This is not a conclusion that I'm

17 drawing.

18 Q. So my question to the witness is actually whether it is correct

19 that he also received that decision which reads that he is released by

20 presidential pardon of the late President Trajkovski as a member of the

21 terrorist group NLA?

22 A. To my recollection, the Macedonian Assembly deliberated on

23 precisely this issue for these persons not to be called terrorists. This

24 was discussed at the Macedonian Assembly.

25 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, just answer briefly. Did you receive this decision,

Page 4690

1 were you served that decision on pardon, and were you released on the

2 basis of that decision?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

6 questions of this witness.

7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: [Previous translation continues]...

8 Ms. Zivkovic.

9 Ms. Regue.

10 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honour. Could I please call Defence exhibit

11 1510.

12 Re-examination by Ms. Regue:

13 Q. And in the meantime, just as a matter of classification [sic],

14 Mr. Rexhepi you mentioned that you were trained as an infantry weapon.

15 When was that?

16 A. I wasn't trained for infantry weapons. This was while in the

17 army. I was a communications officer. I didn't say that I received any

18 training. What I'm talking about is my military service in Nis.

19 Q. Thanks. Now if you could please look at the sketch that you have

20 in front of you. You said that you were able to see everything from the

21 window, which I think is marked with number 4, when you were in the

22 basement of Xhafer Lutfiu. You also said that the wall, which is marked

23 with number 3, it was a small wall.

24 How you were able to see the Hermelin and the uniformed men in

25 point A, and how you were able to see the other uniformed men in point B,

Page 4691

1 despite having the wall in front of you?

2 A. This is a very simple drawing. But you can see point A, point B,

3 and also the upper road, and you could see the Hermelin from all these

4 points that I mentioned.

5 Q. Therefore, was the wall obstructing your view of point A and point

6 B?

7 A. No. Not a lot on point B as it did on point A.

8 Q. But were you able to see the Hermelin and the -- and the uniformed

9 men which were in point A?

10 A. Yes, yes, I was able to.

11 Q. Thanks. You were asked why you didn't contact the Macedonian

12 authorities, and why you didn't file charges after you were released. In

13 any point in any time when you were in prison and after you were released

14 from Sutka, were you ever contacted by any member of the police or any

15 committee from the Ministry of Interior asking you what had happened to

16 you and what had happened in Ljuboten in August 2001?

17 A. No, no one came. To this day, no.

18 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.

20 You will be pleased to hear, sir, that this brings your

21 examination to an end. You may go now and resume your occupations. Thank

22 you very much for the help you have given to this Court.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [The witness withdrew]


Page 4692

1 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Your Honours, the Prosecution does not have another witness ready

3 to commence today. The next witness will be arriving over the weekend.

4 We have a full schedule, hopefully, of witnesses for next week, and

5 hopefully now for the following week as well. There shouldn't be any

6 downtime in the next two weeks, I hope.

7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

8 We will adjourn now for the weekend and resume on Monday at a

9 quarter past 2.00.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.38 a.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of

12 September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.