Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5047

1 Monday, 17 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 May I remind you, General, of the affirmation that you made which

8 still applies.

9 Ms. Residovic, do you have something more for us?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. No, Your

11 Honours. What you had during the last week was enough, but I have a

12 proposal to make. You received in evidence the plan for the deployment of

13 the security forces that is Exhibit 1D177, the document has been shown to

14 this witness and has been received with the draft translation. The court

15 officer informed us that the official translation has arrived and I would

16 like to ask the Chamber to replace the old draft with the official

17 translation.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that. We foreshadowed that would

19 occur and it will be done.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like that the

21 witness is given these documents that he already had on Friday and we

22 would like the assistance of the usher.

23 While the witness is given these documents, Your Honours, I would

24 like to remind you that on Friday at the beginning of the questioning of

25 this witness, by mistake I didn't show you a document, for which the

Page 5048

1 Defence proposes to only be marked for identification. I would like to

2 ask now that you see the document in tab 144. And I would like to remind

3 that this document - this is 92 bis statement of Kristo Zdravkovski which

4 has been received in evidence as Exhibit 1D125, MFI and has been shown to

5 the witness, Risto Galevski. In this statement, Kristo Zdravkovski, the

6 head of the security sector in Bitola has mentioned that on the -- on the

7 occasion of the Bitola events, criminal reports have been filed against

8 around 100 persons. In line with that information, the Defence would like

9 to ask you to look at the document in tab 145 which is 65 ter 1D583.1,

10 page 1D5342, and the English is 1D5343.

11 So the Defence asked from the Ministry of the Interior to inform

12 us whether the report -- the criminal reports have been filed and what are

13 persons against whom these criminal reports have been filed.

14 I would like to ask you to look into the document in tab 146,

15 which is 65 ter 583.2, 1D5344, and the English version is 1D5346. The

16 ministry responded to us, quoting the exact number of criminal reports and

17 the dates where these reports were filed to the basic prosecutor's office

18 in Bitola with the names of the persons that have been reported.

19 Given that we are following the decision that you made a couple of

20 days ago and the directions that you gave in that sense, I would like to

21 have this document, 65 ter 583.2, is marked -- to have this document

22 marked for identification and the Defence will either call the witness

23 or -- or present the original criminal reports. The Defence will

24 additionally tender this in evidence.

25 JUDGE PARKER: I'm not clear whether you want to tender something

Page 5049

1 now or you're saying that you're going to tender the original criminal

2 reports at some later time.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since this 65 ter

4 583.2 would accompany the 92 bis statement of Zdravko Krstevski [as

5 interpreted] as I previously said, I would just like to ask to have this

6 document marked for identification, and we will later, when we will be

7 proposing to -- to tender -- to receive in evidence the statement we will

8 attach the criminal reports to it.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked for identification.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 1D188, marked for identification, Your

11 Honours.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]

15 Q. [Interpretation], General, good afternoon. Responding to my

16 questions previously, you said that at the time when your committee start

17 with its work that you only had the decision to establish the commission

18 of 13th of August, commission that was established by Mr. Boskoski and the

19 report of that commission while -- while you learned about other documents

20 in a later stage. Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it true that the Minister Hari Kostov, did not give you then

23 also the information that he received from Goran Mitevski, an information

24 that the previous minister of defence, Vlado Buckovski, did -- discovered

25 or reviewed after the elections were over in 2002?

Page 5050

1 A. I did not have that information available.

2 Q. So the commission did not have the information available, an

3 information that suggested that the president of the Republic of Macedonia

4 was involved in the organisation of this action in Ljuboten. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Responding to the previous questions you said that your commission

8 worked in a conditions different than the conditions of the commission

9 established by Minister Boskoski. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At the time when you worked in the commission, in the public

12 already some names appeared, and you were then able to call those persons

13 and to interview them. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. However, as you said, the commission also on the basis of the

16 interviews of those persons, was not able to come to reliable informations

17 about the person who were in Ljuboten and also was not able to find out

18 what really happened there.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it correct that during the work of your commission that the

21 Albanian population was not willing to cooperate with the Macedonian

22 authorities, especially with the police?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You will agree with me that the situation was much more difficult

25 in 2001.

Page 5051

1 A. Completely.

2 Q. You are able to know this from your position as a person directly

3 engaged in the return of the police forces in the crisis areas. Is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The ministry, immediately after the signature of the Ohrid

7 Agreement, continued with the previous activity to employ a larger number

8 of Albanians in the police. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That project started already by the end of 2002 --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, it started during

12 the -- by the end of 2000.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. It continued in 2001 in cooperation with the American embassy, and

15 the crisis momentarily interrupted the full implementation of that

16 programme. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But right in the beginning of September of 2001, the procedure was

19 continued, an announcement was published in the media, and 107 Albanians

20 were employed at the time in the police, so that was more than the project

21 envisioned. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I would like to ask you, General, to look at the document in tab

24 141. That is 65 ter 1D580, page 1D5330, and the English version

25 is 1D5331.

Page 5052

1 General, you see that this is a report which was composed by the

2 department for international cooperation in European -- in European

3 integration of the Ministry of the Interior and it relates to a meeting of

4 the director of public safety with Mr. Gary Bennett, from the US embassy

5 in the Republic of Macedonia. Do you see that this is that document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the report itself says that on the 4th of September, 2001, a

8 meeting was held between the head of public safety, Goran Mitevski and

9 Mr. Gary Bennett, assigned for coordination of the assistance of the

10 embassy of the United States for training of personnel in the area of

11 safety with the aim of reviewing the details of the process of recruiting

12 personnel at the police academy.

13 Does this confirm that the ministry waited no time but right after

14 the conditions were right, continued in cooperation with the American

15 embassy to implement this programme?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Is it correct that although at the beginning there were -- that it

18 has been envisioned that 100 candidates will be employed out of whom the

19 majority were supposed to be Albanian, that at the end, after this

20 procedure has been completed, 107 Albanians were employed and there was

21 nobody else employed at that time in the ministry?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Even though a large number of Albanians were employed in the

24 beginning of September in the Ministry of Interior, the attitude of the

25 part of the Albanian population to provide the relevant information and to

Page 5053

1 cooperate with the Ministry of Interior did not change, and they continued

2 to be unprepared to cooperate with the police. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 183.

5 That is Exhibit P104. This is it an Official Note, number 735, and that

6 is an Official Note, as you can see, that was filed by the -- to the

7 department of the internal affairs of Cair and the subject is interview

8 conducted with the person Kenan Salievski.

9 General, do you agree with me if I were to say that it would be

10 important for the police and it would be right for the police to learn

11 about certain information in the village through the heads of that

12 village?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. From this Official Note, it is visible that Salievski Kenan

15 promised to provide the requested information about the identity of the

16 deceased persons that the Basic Court Skopje I requested, but as it is

17 visible in the last paragraph, and I quote: "On 16th of November, 2001,

18 Salievski Kenan called us by telephone at the department for internal

19 affairs, Cair, and told us that after having consulted the village board

20 from the village of Ljuboten, he cannot give us any information neither

21 about the event nor about the deceased persons."

22 Does this information confirm that also in November 2001 it was

23 impossible for the police to learn about the information that would be

24 important for the execution of a certain procedure in the village of

25 Ljuboten itself?

Page 5054

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 181,

3 which is 65 ter 1D518. And again it is found on page 1D4744, and the

4 English is 1D4745, and again this is an Official Note of the department

5 for internal affairs in Cair, dated 15th of November 2001, and this is

6 a -- a note about the interview within -- with the persons Selim from the

7 village of Ljuboten.

8 In this note, it is said that an interview was held with a person

9 named Selim from Ljuboten about the event that took place on the 12th of

10 August in the village of Ljuboten, whereby during the fights between the

11 security forces of the Republic of Macedonia and the terrorist gangs

12 stationed in the village of Ljuboten, eight persons have died, and that

13 this Selim has named eight persons that allegedly have been killed and

14 have been buried in the Ljuboten cemetery. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the document in tab 182.

17 That is 65 ter 1D521, the page is 1D4751, and the English version is

18 1D4753.

19 We have in front of us now the information that the sector for the

20 interior affairs of Skopje, the department of the interior affairs of

21 Cair, on 19th of November, 2001, have submitted to the Basic Court Skopje

22 II, the department of investigations. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Beneath it says -- it says subject or reference, your file ID

25 number 601/01, of 19th of September, 2001.

Page 5055

1 Do you remember, General, that yesterday we spoke about the fact

2 that, based on the initiative of the Ministry of Interior, initiated to

3 the court and the prosecutor's office, that the prosecutor proposed to

4 carry out investigative actions, exhumation and post-mortem, that at that

5 time a meeting has been held at the institute for forensic medicine, and

6 that it has been clearly concluded that that procedure could only be

7 carried out when additional information would be found about the persons

8 that have been -- that had deceased, about the place where they were

9 buried, and other relevant facts.

10 Do you remember that we were reviewing those documents?

11 A. I remember, but it wasn't yesterday; it was on Friday.

12 Q. Okay. Thanks a lot. That was really on Friday.

13 The first paragraph of this information, of the department

14 of -- the interior, respond to the request of the court. Tell me,

15 General, is this the way in which the police reacts when they have a file

16 in the hands of the court? The police actually assists the court in

17 response to the requests that are filed to the police by the court. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The text goes on saying that an interview has been held with

21 Salievski Kenan, and the content of the Official Note is included, that

22 Official Note that we previously looked at which says that the villagers

23 were not willing to provide the names and other information about the

24 deceased persons. Do you see at this first page that that is now the

25 interpretation of the information that the police -- the police was able

Page 5056

1 to acquire?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I would like to ask you now to look the second -- at the second

4 page of the Macedonian version. That is it 1D4752, and the English is

5 1D4754.

6 The first English paragraph and the second Macedonian paragraph

7 says the following: "In view of the fact that the security situation in

8 this particular region does not permit the undertaking of any kind of

9 operations from our side, we inform you that, apart from the

10 aforementioned, we are not able to perform any other check-ups or

11 investigations and are therefore unable to fully respond to your request.

12 "Regarding the security situation and when it will improve and

13 will become favourable for undertaking of any kind of operations, we

14 inform you that we are able at the moment --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, we are not able to

16 provide an answer to these questions because they do not depend on us.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] But, rather, on higher

18 international and domestic factors. However, should the security

19 situation improves, you will be notified in a timely fashion."

20 Q. Do you agree with me, General, that the head of OVR Cair actually

21 points to the fact that the police of OVR Cair is not able without the

22 assistance of the international community to come to additional

23 information about the village of Ljuboten?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you see at the end that attached to this information the

Page 5057

1 Official Notes 564, 735, and 736 are sent to the court, so the notes that

2 we just looked into. We looked at 735 and 736.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I ask you again: That is the way in which, in accordance to

5 the law the police reacts, when it receives a request from the court, it

6 tries to ascertain the facts that the court is requesting and then about

7 its knowledge or the impossibility to acquire knowledge informs the court.

8 Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like kindly

11 ask now, I seek for these two documents, 65 ter -- 65 ter number 1D518 and

12 65 ter 1D521 to be tendered into evidence.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: 1D518 will become Exhibit 1D189. 65 ter 1D521

15 will become Exhibit 1D190, Your Honours.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. General, please tell me during the operation of your commission

18 and although maybe you said already something in this regard, is it

19 correct that the representatives of the international community,

20 irrespective whether we are talking about the OSCE or the representatives

21 from the ICTY, they did not submit to you the statements that they

22 received at that time from certain people from the village of Ljuboten?

23 A. They did not submit any notes.

24 Q. Also, they did not submit any other material which would be

25 helpful regarding Ljuboten.

Page 5058

1 A. No, they didn't.

2 Q. In 2001, the position that you used to hold in the police

3 department, probably in the public media you could have acquired knowledge

4 about certain reports from the Human Rights Watch which used to talk about

5 certain alleged atrocities carried out on the civilians in the village of

6 Ljuboten. Were you able to hear such information in the public media?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Earlier or during the time when you were the president of the

9 commission that was established by Minister Kostov, did you receive the

10 Human Rights Watch report?

11 A. No, I didn't.

12 Q. I would ask you now to look at the document which can be found in

13 tab 152, and this is 65 ter 1D344. The page is 1D3263.

14 You can find these in the larger second binder, because in the

15 third binder, I think, the documents starts from 155. So the documents in

16 tab 155 onwards can be found in the third binder. So this document can be

17 found in tab 152.

18 Did you manage to find it?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. This is a document that can be seen on the screen, and you can see

21 on the top left-hand corner it is a Human Rights Watch document, as you

22 can see, and it is addressed to the chief public Prosecutor,

23 Mrs. Carla Del Ponte. Can you see it?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Can you now please turn to the second page of this document. In

Page 5059

1 fact, this would be the third page. This is it 1D3265, and in the second

2 paragraph of this letter, where the report is being send to the Prosecutor

3 of the ICTY, Elizabeth Andersen the executive director of Human Rights

4 Watch writes the following: "[In English] We are troubled by reports that

5 Minister of Interior, Ljube Boskoski in Ljuboten on 12th August that they

6 day that the worst abuse were committed. We respectfully request that

7 your government commence a prompt investigation into his role and the

8 conduct of Macedonian troops under his command."

9 [Interpretation] Now, I ask you to take a look at the document in

10 tab 153. This is Exhibit P352, and I kindly ask for us to immediately

11 look at page which is 000-0101. Beneath you can see page number 3 and in

12 the middle it reads "recommendation."

13 Can you please turn one more page. Yes, very well. This is

14 precisely the page.

15 And, General, I would like to turn your attention to these

16 recommendations. In the first paragraph it reads: "To the Macedonian

17 government." And then it reads: "[In English] Investigates and prosecute

18 the person responsible for the abuses in Ljuboten. Conduct a credible,

19 impartial and transparent investigation into the allegation of government

20 abuses in Ljuboten, including the role of minister of the interior

21 Ljube Boskoski and the forces under his command. The authority who carry

22 out the investigation should be independent from the government agency

23 involved in the Ljuboten operation, particularly the ministry of the

24 interior."

25 [Interpretation] Can you see this recommendation that was provided

Page 5060

1 by Human Rights Watch by which it clearly shows that the forces from the

2 Ministry of Interior cannot participate in the investigation. Can you see

3 that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. From the previous note and especially from these recommendations

6 can you see that the Human Rights Watch claims that in the village of

7 Ljuboten the atrocities have been committed by forces under the command of

8 Mr. Ljube Boskoski?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. My question, General, is the following. After you have collected

11 certain documents and you have interviewed certain people, is it correct

12 that the commission could not clearly define and establish which forces

13 were there in the village of Ljuboten?

14 A. Yes. It was not possible to establish who was there in Ljuboten.

15 Q. After you have collected the evidence and you interviewed the

16 people, is it correct that the commission could not establish that those

17 people who were in Ljuboten were under the command of Mr. Ljube Boskoski?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. Is it correct that after the completion of the work of your

20 commission, on the basis of the evidence that you could collect, you did

21 not at all know whether the people who were in the village were members of

22 the army, the police, or at all they did not -- were not members of the

23 police?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. Thank you. Now I would like for you to look at the document in

Page 5061

1 tab 157. First of all, the document in tab 155, actually. You can find

2 this document in the second binder at the very beginning. And this is

3 Exhibit 1D41.

4 Very well. It is already on the screen.

5 Did you find this exhibit?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The title is Ljuboten case, ICTY investigation. And the date is

8 30th of January, 2002. And at the bottom: "[In English] Downgraded to

9 NATO unclassified."

10 [Interpretation] So we are talking about a NATO the document and

11 the transcript was received by the Defence from the Prosecutor's office.

12 In the second paragraph of this document, there is a comment in

13 abbreviation is there which reads Comm. And it reads: "[In English] The

14 Human Rights Watch report on the incident claims that the operation left

15 10 civilians dead and result in the arrest of more than 100 men."

16 [Interpretation] Can you see this, can you see that this is

17 written here?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then it continues: "[In English] And refers to the government

20 newscast of 12 August 2001, to the effect that minister of the interior

21 Mr. Ljube Boskoski was present at the scene that day."

22 [Interpretation] Can you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. From this comment itself, is it clear that future investigation to

25 be led by the ICTY is based on the information that was provided by the

Page 5062

1 Human Rights Watch in its report?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now I ask you to look at the last paragraph, which reads the

4 following. But before that, in the paragraph, the one before last it

5 reads that Mr. Dzikov - and you know who Mr. Dzikov is - do you know who

6 Mr. Dzikov is? Who was he at that time?

7 A. I think that he was the chief public prosecutor.

8 Q. Very well. That Mr. Dzikov at that time informed that the

9 investigation team was not able to enter the village on the 12th and 14th

10 of August. And in the last paragraph, you can read: "[In English] The

11 ICTY presented a number of conditions regarding a possible exhumation in

12 Ljuboten. There should be no uniformed police present at the exhumation

13 site and no special forces. Security should be provided by NATO."

14 [Interpretation] Can you see this that at this particular meeting

15 also the representatives of the International Tribunal have laid these

16 conditions, that on the site, on the exhumation, there shouldn't be any

17 uniformed police?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And in the fourth line from the bottom in this last paragraph it

20 says: "[In English] The Macedonian presence at the scene should be

21 remitted to what would be essential for the investigation, the ICTY should

22 be provided with copies of all relevant documents, and if relatives of

23 those buried (the identity of the deceased are apparently known) want to

24 be present at the exhumation site."

25 [Interpretation] So you would agree with me, General, that in the

Page 5063

1 further stages of the implementation of the procedure of exhumation and

2 autopsy, the recommendation of Human Rights Watch has been followed, that

3 is to say, not to allow the police participation in the process of

4 exhumation and autopsy?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now I will ask you to look at the document in tab 158. This is 65

7 ter 1D149.

8 Did you manage to find this document?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You can see that this letter, dated 20th of February, 2002, and as

11 you can see on the bottom of the page, it was sent to Mr. Dzikov, the

12 chief public prosecutor, in the Republic of Macedonia. And on the second

13 page of this document - can you please turn to the second page - one can

14 see that this letter to Mr. Dzikov has been sent by Patrick Lopez-Torres

15 chief of investigations at the OTP office of the ICTY. Can you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now I will ask to you go back to the first page so that we can see

18 item number 2. So let us see page number 1, items 2 and 4. This is 65

19 ter 1D149. In the title it says: "[In English] Dear Mr. Dzikov, further

20 to previous meetings with representatives of the OTP and verbal argument

21 in relation to evidence in Ljuboten during 2001, I hereby document and

22 present to you the conditions agreed for the progress of the relevant

23 exhumation and subsequent judicial investigation process."

24 [Interpretation] Item 2 reads: "During the exhumation and

25 investigation process, no uniformed personnel other than the NATO task

Page 5064

1 force Fox troops will be present at the graveyard site."

2 [Interpretation] And then item 4 reads the following: "[In

3 English] No Macedonian special forces, MUP or military will be involved in

4 the exhumation process."

5 [Interpretation] General, this is the 20th of February, 2002.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

7 MR. SAXON: I'm very sorry to interrupt. I believe that my

8 learned colleague may have misspoke just one word when she began to read

9 the first paragraph after the salutation, dear Mr. Dzikov. That first

10 line reads: "Further to previous meetings with representatives of the OTP,

11 and verbal agreements," my learned colleague said the word arguments and

12 that is what appears in the transcript.

13 Sorry for the interpretation.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for this

15 correction. The mistake is, of course, a result of my poor English and I

16 believe that you approve of that, and it is correct that it reads

17 agreements.

18 Q. General, from this letter is it clearly visible that the

19 Prosecutor from the ICTY communicates with national chief public

20 prosecutor as the only authorised body that in the Republic of Macedonia

21 can propose or instruct the courts how to implement a certain procedure in

22 the criminal proceedings?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. From these items 2 and 4, is it clear that the ICTY repeats what

25 has been concluded earlier by the NATO on the meeting on the 30th of

Page 5065

1 January, that throughout the process of exhumation and the further

2 investigative process the police cannot be included?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the 20th of February, 2002, you were already an under-secretary

5 for police at the Ministry of Interior. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. However, nobody informed you about these conditions and reasons

8 for which the police cannot participate in the further exhumation and

9 investigation. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct. Nobody informed me.

11 Q. The common procedure, according to our Law on Criminal Proceeding

12 was that concern tasks and the assistance will be requested by the court

13 from the police and then the police is obliged to provide such an

14 assistance. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes. The police always has to assist to the Courts.

16 Q. But it is clear that even the procedure that was initiated by the

17 police on the 7th of September, 2001 where it participated by providing

18 certain data and information to the court so the exhumation can be carried

19 out, the autopsy as well, with these conditions, it has been terminated

20 and the further participation of the police was no longer possible in this

21 process. Is there correct?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. So, as the most responsible person in the Ministry of the

24 Interior, the under-secretary of police, you were not aware of that, and

25 you were not aware either as the president being the president of the

Page 5066

1 commission established by Mr. Hari Kostov?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. However, as you previously stated, you could feel that there was a

4 change in the stance of the international community regarding the police,

5 and then by performing your tasks, you could see that there was an

6 obstruction or at least shifting the police away from the further

7 investigation related to the village of Ljuboten.

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. A few more questions regarding a different topic.

10 Let us go back, first of all, to the reports by the commission --

11 the first commission.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You have read that report, and please tell us whether at any

15 moment you thought that the report of the first commission presided by

16 Goran Mitevski was a false report?

17 A. No. I never doubted this report, nor I thought that it was a

18 false -- I believe that it was a sincere and precise report.

19 Q. Did you at any moment, being the president of the commission, or

20 did your commission came to the conclusion that this report was prepared

21 with bad intent or the purpose was to intentionally hide certain facts?

22 A. We never doubted this report at any moment.

23 Q. Did you, General, think at any moment that the commission which

24 was presided by Goran Mitevski conducted a false investigation?

25 A. No, I never doubted this at any moment.

Page 5067

1 Q. Bearing in mind the composition of the commission that prepared

2 this first report, do you agree with me that the Minister Boskoski could

3 rely on the information that they have drafted?

4 A. Yes, completely.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

6 MR. SAXON: That also seems to be asking for a legal conclusion

7 that is in the hands of this Chamber.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I ask this kind of

9 question previously, and the questions were always related to the issue,

10 because he answered that bearing in mind the composition the minister

11 could rely on their report, and also previously he already relied that

12 bearing in mind the position of the first commission, the minister could

13 also rely on the information that was provided by this commission.

14 I can avoid repeating the questions that were answered on Friday

15 by the witness, but I don't think that there is anything else there to the

16 suggestion -- related to the suggestion and the instructions that you gave

17 me previously.

18 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will not stop you asking that question,

19 Ms. Residovic.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

21 Q. General, having in mind the composition of the commission that was

22 established by the Minister Boskoski, did you, as a president of the

23 commission, and did the commission believe that the Minister Boskoski can

24 rely on their information?

25 A. Completely, yes.

Page 5068

1 Q. General, you know that immediately in the Ohrid Framework

2 Agreement of the 13th of August, 2001 they have expressed their readiness

3 for the people who were related to the conflict for them to be guaranteed

4 amnesty. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes. In the agreement.

6 Q. Now I kindly ask you to look at the document that can you find in

7 tab 185 in the third binder that you have. This is 65 ter 1D163. The

8 page is 1D1724.

9 General, you see here a letter from the president of the Republic

10 of Macedonia. Is that so?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You see the coat of arms for the Republic of Macedonia at the top.

13 And then it is signed by Boris Trajkovski, the president of the Republic

14 of Macedonia of that time. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The letter is sent to George Robertson and it reads the following:

17 "[In English] Dear Secretary-General, I hereby confirm that the NLA will

18 be able to benefit from the opportunities offered by the government for

19 reintegrating into society in accordance with my plan and programme for

20 overcoming the crisis. In this context, the government of the Republic of

21 Macedonia will offer immunity from penal proceedings for all former

22 members of the NLA who have voluntarily disarmed with the exception of

23 those suspected of having committed crimes for which the United Nations

24 International Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia is competent."

25 [Interpretation] Do you see that?

Page 5069

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is this a clearly presented will of the Macedonian government and

3 the president to -- to have put under amnesty all those who -- who carried

4 out certain acts as sabotage and terrorist groups at that time in the

5 territory of the Republic of Macedonia except for those who conducted

6 severe criminal acts. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You know that already in November the president, with his

9 decision, pardoned a large number of persons against whom a criminal

10 procedure has been instigated, also pardoned those persons from Ljuboten

11 against whom there has been a procedure before the Basic Court II Skopje

12 in Skopje. Are you familiar with that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now please look at the document in tab 186. That is Exhibit P83.

15 The page N000-9207, and the Macedonian page is N000-9977.

16 You're familiar with the Law on Amnesty, General, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And this law did not make a distinction between the Macedonians

19 and Albanians. The amnesty related to all the persons involved in the

20 conflict. Isn't it so?

21 A. Yes, all the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia.

22 Q. And if we look at Article 1, paragraph 2, that is clearly said in

23 the: "[In English] The amnesty also applies to persons who have prepared

24 or committed criminal acts related the conflict in the year 2001, before

25 the first of January 2001."

Page 5070

1 [Interpretation] So not only the persons that committed these acts

2 during 2001 until 26th of September 2001 as it is said in paragraph 1, but

3 also to those persons that have committed such crimes even before the 1st

4 of January, 2001. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So that was a general Law on Amnesty, and the only excluded those

7 persons against whom a procedure has been initiated in front of the

8 International Tribunal?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that has clearly been stated in the last paragraph of Article

11 1 of this law, which is found on the second page of the law. You could

12 take a look. That is N000-9208 in the English, and the Macedonian -- at

13 the first page, last paragraph in the Macedonian version.

14 So thereby it is said that the provisions of Article 1, 2, and 3

15 of this Article, do not apply to persons who have committed criminal acts

16 related to and in connection with the conflict in 2001, which are under

17 the jurisdiction and for which the ICTY for prosecution of persons

18 responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law in

19 the territory of former Yugoslavia will instigate proceedings.

20 Is it true, General that when your commission was working that you

21 did not know that the ICTY initiated a procedure against any person in

22 relation to the Ljuboten events, certain defined persons?

23 A. We were not informed about the ICTY's activities.

24 Q. You only knew that the Prosecution asked to have five cases

25 deferred, among which the Ljuboten case was there, not certain persons,

Page 5071

1 right?

2 A. In general, we knew about Ljuboten, but we didn't know about the

3 specific persons.

4 Q. Tell me now, General, bearing in mind the legal provisions, would

5 it be true that even if you managed to find some information about some

6 doubts that certain persons have overstepped the authority on 12th of

7 August or the following days, that is in relation with Ljuboten, that in

8 respect with this law you would not be able to carry out any further

9 pre-criminal activities. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, according to the law -- pursuant to the Law on Amnesty we

11 were not able to initiate any criminal or misdemeanour procedures that

12 were involved in this case.

13 Q. Also, if certain procedure has been initiated at the prosecutor's

14 office or in the investigating judge's office, these cases would have had

15 to have been discontinued. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And if a certain person would happened to be sentenced, the

18 serving of the sentence would have to be discontinued, right?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. But these are only assumptions, and you already said that the

21 commission were not able to even determine and the reliable facts based on

22 which it would be able to know that some person has committed some

23 criminal act. Is that right?

24 A. Yes. As a committee we were not able.

25 Q. And at the time that you used to work, due to the short periods

Page 5072

1 for expiration -- due to the short periods for expiration of the statute

2 of limitation, you were not able to carry out any other activities, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But based on the facts that you determined in the commission, the

5 commission was not able to even determine that some persons have committed

6 some acts that would be disciplinary violations, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this ends my

9 questioning.

10 Q. Witness, I thank you.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] But I just like to ask Your

12 Honours now to admit in evidence the documents that I showed to the

13 witness. That is 65 ter 1D149, that is the letter addressed to Mr. Dzikov

14 of 20th of February, 2002; then 65 ter 1D344, that is a letter sent by

15 Human Rights Watch to the head of the Prosecutor's office of the ICTY; and

16 65 ter 1D163, a letter of President Trajkovski sent to the general

17 secretary of the NATO.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Each of those will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1D149 will become Exhibit 1D191. 65 ter

20 1D344 will become Exhibit 1D192. And 65 ter 1D163 will become Exhibit

21 1D193, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.

23 Mr. Apostolski.

24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

25 Good afternoon, witness.

Page 5073

1 I wish to inform Your Honours that in cooperation with

2 Mr. Boskoski's Defence all the topics that I wanted to ask about were

3 asked about by my colleague Ms. Residovic and I have no further questions

4 for this witness.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski, indeed.

6 Mr. Saxon, would it be worthwhile perhaps having the break at this

7 point, Mr. Saxon.

8 MR. SAXON: I would be grateful, Your Honour, yes.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It would suit the Chamber if we resumed at ten

10 minutes past 4.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.28 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. I

15 would like to mention that the documents that I showed to the witness, I

16 showed document in tab 141.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel repeat the numbers, please.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 65 ter 1D580. That is a

19 meeting between the director of the public security bureau Goran Mitevski

20 and a representative of the American embassy in respect of the employment

21 of the new members in the police that would be of Albanian ethnicity.

22 I apologise, I forgot to tender that document as a Defence

23 exhibit, so I would like to tender it now.

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D194, Your Honours.

Page 5074

1 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Saxon.

2 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:

4 Q. General Jovanovski, thank you for keeping me honest, General.

5 On Wednesday, this is at page 4897 of the transcript, you

6 explained that in 2001 during joint operations with the Macedonian army,

7 commanders of units of the Macedonian police would receive orders from an

8 army superior, and then the commanders of the police units would issue

9 orders to the police officers in their units who would carry out the

10 operation.

11 Do you recall explaining that?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. And on Friday at page 4977 of the transcript, you explained that

14 if a police officer committed an act of misconduct during a joint

15 operation, the army commander would have the duty to produce an

16 information and inform the police commander. Do you remember that?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. When the police commander got that information, would the police

19 commander then have a duty to start a disciplinary procedure concerning

20 the police officer who allegedly committed the act of misconduct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. General, suppose during a joint operation back in 2001, a police

23 commander personally observed one of his police officers, one of his

24 subordinates, committing misconduct, what duty would the police commander

25 have then?

Page 5075

1 A. So depending on the region, so in the regions that were not part

2 of the crisis, then it would not be obliged to inform them -- the army

3 commander under whose command he would be, the commander would take

4 disciplinary measures himself, that is to say, would propose disciplinary

5 measures while in the regions that were in the crisis regions, it would

6 inform the army commander and would take an initiative to start a

7 disciplinary measure or for an appropriate punishment.

8 Q. All right. So I if I can summarize what you just explained to us.

9 So, then, during a joint operation, a joint army/police operation, if a

10 police commander saw a member of his unit commit an act of misconduct, the

11 police commander would inform the army commander of what had happened, and

12 then the police commander would take the initiative to start a

13 disciplinary measure that was appropriate for his subordinate. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. You mentioned, General -- this was on Friday, and this

17 is at page 4978 of the transcript that during these joint police and army

18 operations there would be morning and evening meetings where issues were

19 discussed between police commanders and army commanders. What kinds of

20 issues would be discussed at these meetings? Can you help us with that.

21 A. It depends on the events. We had both morning and evening

22 meetings. It sometimes happened that we only had a morning or just

23 evening meetings; it depended. We were deciding day by day. At these

24 meetings, the security situation was reviewed and measures and activities

25 were proposed to be taken in the future period, and reports were made

Page 5076

1 about the measures taken in the past period.

2 Q. And at these meetings, would the army and the police commanders

3 try to reach agreements as to how to proceed in the future, or the next

4 day or how to resolve particular issues related to the joint operation?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And occasionally, were problems of discipline discussed at these

7 morning or evening meetings during these joint operations?

8 A. Inter alia, disciplinary events, yes.

9 Q. Thank you. And so at that point at a morning meeting or at an

10 evening meeting if a police commander was not previously aware of acts of

11 misconduct or possible acts of misconduct performed by one of his

12 subordinates, the police commander would become informed at one of the

13 meetings?

14 A. Yes, or in the course of the day, of the following day.

15 Q. All right. And during or after such joint operations, for example

16 using you as an example, you were a commander of a posebna unit, would the

17 heads of the posebna units inform their superiors in the Ministry of the

18 Interior about their activities whether police officers had been wounded

19 and killed, other important things, other important information?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At page 4873 of the transcript, you explained to my colleague that

22 in the first half of 2001 only the Tigers unit reported directly to the

23 minister. Do you recall that?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. And then you explained that all the other police units had their

Page 5077

1 own chain of command within the public security bureau. Do you recall

2 that?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Who was the person at the top of the chain of command in the

5 Ministry of Interior?

6 A. When the special Tigers unit was under the -- was headed by the

7 minister?

8 Q. My question wasn't directly related to the Tiger unit. Because

9 you had explained that other police units had their own chain of command.

10 They didn't report directly to the minister, like the Tiger units did.

11 They had to work up through a chain of command and so my question is: Who

12 or whom was at the very top of the chain of command in the Ministry of

13 Interior?

14 A. For the uniformed police, the chain goes, commander of a police

15 station is responsible to the head of sector; and then, at the same time,

16 the head of the uniformed police in the sector is responsible to the head

17 for public law and order in the police department. The head of the

18 department for public law and order is responsible to the under-secretary

19 for of police. And the under-secretary is responsible to the director of

20 the public security bureau, while the director is responsible to the

21 minister.

22 Q. Who, then, was most accountable for the acts and conduct of police

23 officers in 2001?

24 A. We cannot talk about the most responsible person because the

25 responsibility is divided each and every one is held responsible for their

Page 5078

1 action.

2 MR. SAXON: I'd like to show the witness, please, a video-clip

3 from 65 ter 988. This is at -- from time code 1:43:27 to a 1:44:05. This

4 is video footage shot on the 15th of May, 2007, after an accident that

5 occurred at a police training exercise at a place called Lajunovo [phoen].

6 I'm not going to play the entire video clip, I'm just going to play about

7 30 seconds of it.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Can you please ask the Defence counsel to switch

10 on the microphone, please.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not aware which particular

12 year was mentioned. We received the translation that it was 2007. But,

13 anyways, we would like to know whether this was at the time that is being

14 covered by the indictment.

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, I misspoke. It was video footage shot

16 on the 15th of May, 2002. However it shows -- it contains some speech by

17 the accused Mr. Boskoski which is relevant to his intent and his

18 accountability during the time-period relevant to this indictment.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Please proceed.

20 MR. SAXON: Okay. If we can show that video.

21 [Videotape played]


23 Q. General Jovanovski, you saw then Minister Boskoski speaking there?

24 A. Yes, yes, he is. This is his statement.

25 Q. Would you agree at least that even Minister Boskoski believed that

Page 5079

1 he was the person most accountable for the activities of the police?

2 A. As far as I could understand, he was talking about his actions and

3 not for the rest of the police.

4 MR. SAXON: Well, can we play the video again, please.

5 [Videotape played]


7 Q. Did you hear the minister say: "As commander of the Macedonian

8 police, he is most accountable." Did you hear him say that?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me, then, that even Minister Boskoski

11 believed that he was the person most responsible or accountable for the

12 actions of the Macedonian police?

13 A. Yes. The same as he mentioned at the very beginning of his

14 statement when he said that it is very difficult to determine who is

15 accountable for the events, whether the security or someone else. So this

16 is something that he said as well.

17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this video-clip.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P437, Your Honours.


21 Q. General Jovanovski, at page 4879 of the transcript, you explained

22 that the police station commander, as a direct superior of the uniformed

23 police, should instigate a disciplinary procedure if one of his officers

24 commits an act of misconduct. Do you recall that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 5080

1 Q. General, suppose back in 2001 a police station commander failed to

2 do his or her duty to instigate a disciplinary procedure, who then would

3 discipline the police station commander for failure to do -- for failing

4 to do his duty?

5 A. The commander of the sector for interior.

6 Q. Okay.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the head.


9 Q. And if the head of the sector for the Ministry of Interior fails

10 to do initiate such a proceeding, who would step in then to initiate a

11 disciplinary proceeding?

12 A. The head of the sector, he has to assess the situation and give

13 information whether such a procedure should be instigated or not.

14 Q. What if the head of sector -- what if the head of the sector fails

15 to carry out his responsibility?

16 A. Then we have a professional standards unit or internal control

17 which reviews all the cases and initiates a disciplinary proceeding

18 procedure.

19 Q. But, of course, that professional standards unit has to be

20 informed about the fact that there was an act of misconduct in the first

21 place. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. General Jovanovski, can the minister, or in 2001 could the

24 minister inform the professional standards unit about information that an

25 act of misconduct might have occurred?

Page 5081

1 A. I don't know -- I didn't understand the interpretation. Can you

2 repeat your question, please.

3 Q. Back in 2001, if the minister had information available that a

4 member of the police might have committed an act of misconduct, could the

5 minister provide that information to the professional standards unit?

6 A. If the minister had such information, he could have provided it.

7 However, all information is sent in parallel to the internal control to

8 the public security bureau and to the intelligence directorate.

9 Q. All right. And would the same concept work with respect to the

10 permanent disciplinary committee? If the minister, in 2001, had

11 information that a member of the police had committed an act of

12 misconduct, could the minister have provided that information or sent a

13 proposal to the permanent disciplinary committee of the ministry to

14 commence a disciplinary proceeding against the police officer, or the

15 member of the ministry?

16 A. Individually, so the minister to initiate a disciplinary

17 proceedings, he wouldn't do that. This would be done by the immediate

18 superiors. So as I already said, the initiative comes from the superiors

19 officers and from the internal control. Now the minister as an official,

20 as an individual, there is a difference here, so if there is certain

21 information during these daily meetings we would review it, and jointly we

22 would submit it to the commission on disciplinary and material

23 accountability.

24 Q. I see. And who would have the -- at your daily meetings or at the

25 collegium of the ministry, who would have the final word as to whether

Page 5082

1 such information should be submitted to the permanent commission for

2 disciplinary proceedings?

3 A. Probably the director of the bureau or the head of the

4 organisational unit.

5 Q. You said probably. If the minister himself felt strongly about an

6 issue of -- related to discipline, could the minister direct that

7 information or a proposal be submitted to the permanent disciplinary

8 commission?

9 A. As an information can be sent but a proposal for the initiation of

10 a disciplinary proceedings cannot be done. So just an information, as an

11 information can be given, but for him to give a proposal for disciplinary

12 proceedings, no. So there is a separate commission that would review this

13 kind of information and would decide whether a disciplinary proceeding

14 will be commencing or not.

15 Q. Sure. But my question is really, did the minister have the

16 authority to instruct his subordinates at the collegium to submit a

17 proposal to the permanent disciplinary commission. That's my question.

18 A. He cannot give instructions because the work of the disciplinary

19 commission is provided by the rules. So he can only provide information.

20 Q. And could the minister instruct his subordinates to provide such

21 information to the permanent disciplinary commission?

22 A. Normally, this would be done by the immediate superiors or the

23 director.

24 Q. I know you've said normally. I'm asking whether the minister

25 himself, using his authority, could direct one of his subordinates in the

Page 5083

1 collegium to provide such information to the permanent disciplinary

2 commission.

3 A. At the meetings, it was possible to give not to order if he has

4 received some kind of information, he could convey this information and we

5 would review it and process it. So as a minister, he did not collect any

6 information or process information. This is what is something that is

7 being done by the subordinate services or departments.

8 Q. Sure. But once the minister had such information, he could direct

9 his subordinates to send that information to the disciplinary commission,

10 couldn't he?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. I'd like to move on to another topic, General.

13 Last Wednesday - it seems like a long time ago now - at page 4888

14 of the transcript, you explained to my learned colleague that in 2001,

15 members of the Ministry of Interior tried to take all necessary measures

16 to find -- or to identify the perpetrators of crimes committed against

17 ethnic Albanians in places like Bitola, and parts of Skopje. Do you

18 recall that?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. And do you recall at the time explaining to Ms. Residovic and the

21 Chamber that over 80 per cent of such cases were clarified and finalised

22 and that criminal reports were initiated against perpetrators of

23 Macedonian ethnicity. Do you recall that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. General, during that process, at that time, how did the members of

Page 5084

1 the Ministry of Interior identify the perpetrators of such acts? How did

2 they do that?

3 A. This was happening in Bitola, and I cannot comment and I can't be

4 very precise about how our colleagues in Bitola did that.

5 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you a few questions and if you're not able

6 to answer just say so, that's fine. If you don't know, that's fine.

7 Do you know whether your colleagues in Bitola spoke with the

8 victims themselves?

9 A. At that time I was working in the police department, and these

10 activities are undertaken by the department for forensics or crime police.

11 I don't have plenty of information about the operation of the crime

12 police, at that period.

13 Q. Okay. Well, during that period, let's move away from the efforts

14 to clarify the events in Bitola, during the crisis period back in 2001,

15 could the members of the crime police, the criminal inspectors, would they

16 still try to speak with witnesses of a crime? Is that still part of their

17 normal duties?

18 A. As far as I know, we were an open ministry, and we were ready for

19 talking with anybody, anybody that might have come to us.

20 Q. Okay. Would that include, for example, talking to police officers

21 who might have been witnesses of an alleged crime?

22 A. Probably.

23 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness, please, Exhibit P96. And

24 we'll need to go to page -- we'll be looking at the rule book, I believe,

25 for the organisation of the work of the Ministry of Interior.

Page 5085

1 Yes. Could we move, please, to page 42 of the English version and

2 the bottom of page -- well, and page 25 in the Macedonian version.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE PARKER: We don't reach seven pages on any of the

5 translations we have.

6 MR. SAXON: All right. If you allow me, Your Honour, to proceed

7 with just using the Macedonian version, I can ask the witness to focus on

8 that so that we understand what it says.

9 Could we enlarge what is Article 167 --

10 Q. Do you see Article 167 at the bottom of the page, General?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And do you see where in Article 167 it says that after -- I

13 believe it says after the police possessed sufficient information

14 regarding suspicion that a crime has occurred, they can send a criminal

15 report or should send a criminal report and send it to the public

16 prosecutor.

17 Now we see the English version coming up but we've lost some of

18 the Macedonian version. And I see that in the English version of Article

19 167 there is a mistake in the translation. It twice says: "Public

20 defender," and that should say "public prosecutor."

21 And, General, if -- do you see where it says, General, that the

22 authorised official composed a criminal report which is delivered to the

23 competent public prosecutor? It's in the first four or five lines.

24 A. This refers to the actual act of filing criminal charges. So if

25 on the basis of collected information and other undertaken measures and

Page 5086

1 activities in order to confirm or document them, and there is a reasonable

2 suspicion that the criminal offence has been committed which is being

3 prosecuted, ex officio, the appropriate person, official will prepare a

4 criminal report.

5 Q. Okay. Can any authorised official of the Ministry of the Interior

6 who has sufficient information indicating that a crime has been committed

7 compose a criminal report and send it to the public prosecutor?

8 A. If there is a reasonable suspicion, then yes.

9 Q. So that means, then, that the minister of the interior and other

10 members of the collegium, if they have information that provides them with

11 reasonable suspicion, they could compose a criminal report and forward it

12 to the public prosecutor. Is that right?

13 A. If they have, yes. And this is being done by the crime police

14 department.

15 Q. Okay. In other words, the information is being collected by the

16 crime police department.

17 A. Yes. It collects the material evidence, expert reports and

18 everything else, and like it says here, it is being submitted to the

19 public prosecutor who will then accept or reject such criminal report.

20 So the public prosecutor is the one who has the last word with

21 respect to the submitted criminal report.

22 Q. Sure. Okay. I was just a bit confused by your last answer to my

23 last question, because I asked you whether the minister of the interior

24 and other members of the collegium could compose a criminal report and

25 forward it to the public prosecutor. And you answered, if they have, yes.

Page 5087

1 Does that mean if they have sufficient information, yes, they can do that?

2 A. The minister and the members of the collegium do not do this. I

3 will repeat it again. The filing of criminal charges is being done by

4 inspectors in the crime police who would collect all the evidence,

5 schematics, photographs, and everything else that can corroborate the

6 criminal charges and this is what is being submitted to the public

7 prosecutor. So the minister is not the person who files the criminal

8 charges nor us as under-secretaries or heads of departments.

9 Q. I understand that the filing of criminal reports would not

10 normally be part of the daily work of yourself, your colleagues in the

11 collegium or the minister himself. But you told us a few minutes ago that

12 any authorised official of the Ministry of Interior who has sufficient

13 information indicating that a crime has been committed could compose a

14 criminal report and send it to the public prosecutor.

15 So, just trying to understand, the minister is an authorised

16 official, isn't he? He has that authority, if he chooses to use it?

17 A. In the Ministry of Interior, there are several categories of

18 authorised personnel. So we also have cleaning ladies who are authorised

19 but they are not the ones who would file a criminal report. So we know

20 precisely in the ministry who would file criminal reports and who would

21 appear before the court in order to defend such a criminal report, which

22 means that the minister, and we as under-secretaries or heads do not file

23 criminal reports. But as citizens, if we have certain information, we

24 would give this information to the inspectors. This is our civil duty.

25 Q. Okay. On Wednesday Ms. Residovic asked you about a working group

Page 5088

1 set up by the Macedonian government for the purpose of collecting evidence

2 about potential war crimes that were perpetrated in Macedonia in 2001.

3 And you explained that in 2001, you were not aware of the activities of

4 this working group. Do you recall that exchange?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. And you also explained that later on you learned about the

7 existence of this working group concerning war crimes, and you heard that

8 the documents collected by this working group had been destroyed by the

9 new government. Do you remember that?

10 A. I do.

11 MR. SAXON: Can we please show the witness what is Exhibit P00081.

12 And this is the criminal code of Macedonia. And if we can turn to page

13 139 in the English version and page 149 in the Macedonian version, please.

14 Q. General, we're starting here at chapter 34 of the Macedonian

15 criminal code as it stood in 2001. And this chapter is entitled, as you

16 can see, crimes against humanity and international law.

17 Do you see that? I'm not sure if the General can see the title

18 that I just read, because it's -- oh, perhaps he can now.

19 Do you see that, General?

20 A. I can only see the title.

21 Q. Okay. And if --

22 MR. SAXON: Can we please scroll down on the Macedonian page,

23 please. To see the rest of that page. Thank you.

24 Q. General, we see that Article 403 deals with the crime of genocide.

25 Do you see that?

Page 5089

1 A. I do.

2 MR. SAXON: Can we turn the page, please -- and before we do that,

3 the bottom of the English page, we see a subheading: "War crimes against

4 the civil population."

5 Can we turn the page in both versions, please.

6 Q. And we see, General, -- we see Article 404 there, war crimes

7 against the civil population, which begins: "A person, who, by violating

8 the rules of international law, during a war, armed conflict or

9 occupation, orders an attack upon civil population, a settlement, certain

10 civil persons or persons incapacitated for combat," et cetera, et cetera,

11 et cetera. And then at the bottom of that paragraph it says: "Shall be

12 punished with imprisonment of at least ten years or with life

13 imprisonment."

14 Do you see that?

15 A. I see it.

16 Q. And then we see at the bottom of the page in English Article 405

17 is entitled: War crime against the wounded and ill. If we can scroll

18 down in the Macedonian version, please. Maybe if we can turn the page in

19 the Macedonian version. And if we could also, please, turn the page in

20 English version.

21 And I'm very grateful to Ms. Guduric for her patience with me.

22 We see at the top of the next page in English what is described as

23 war crimes against wounded and ill and then we see, war crimes against

24 prisoners of war, use of prohibited combat means, et cetera.

25 Do you see those crimes in the Macedonian version, General?

Page 5090

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. General, when you and your colleagues refer to war crimes in

3 Macedonia, you're referring to the crimes that are contained here -- were

4 contained here in chapter -- I believe it was 34 of the criminal code?

5 I didn't hear a response, I'm sorry.

6 A. I didn't understand your question.

7 Q. I'm sorry. Then I will repeat it. I will repeat it.

8 The crimes that we've just looked at here in chapter 34 of the

9 criminal code from your country, were these the kind of crimes that were

10 considered as war crimes in Macedonia in 2001?

11 A. I'm not that qualified to answer this question of yours.

12 Q. All right. That's fine.

13 MR. SAXON: If we can remove that exhibit, please.

14 Q. Last week, General, you answered a number of questions --

15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Apologising to my colleague, I

17 wouldn't like to disrupt, but at page 43/14 of the transcript my colleague

18 said to the witness that the Defence asked him whether he knows whether

19 the Macedonian government established a working group to examine the war

20 crimes. I just would like to point out that my question was at page 4899,

21 line 23 -- 4899, page 4889. And I asked then about the working group

22 established by Minister Boskoski, and there was no mention of any working

23 groups established by the Macedonian government.

24 That's what I would like to clarify.

25 MR. SAXON: And I'm grateful for the clarification.

Page 5091

1 Can we show the witness, please, what is Exhibit 1D182. And if

2 Your Honours still have the binders provided by Ms. Residovic, it would

3 be -- this is the document at tab 87.

4 And that is not the exhibit that I was looking for. That is the

5 Human Rights Watch report.

6 The document I was hoping to see was formerly 65 ter 1D562, which

7 I understood now to have an exhibit number of 1D182. Ah, there we are.

8 Thank you.

9 Q. General, if you can, turn to -- do you have tab 87 there in the

10 binder that is with you?

11 A. [In English] You're speaking of this document?

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness.


14 Q. Perhaps, General, it would be easier for now just to follow along

15 on the screen, please.

16 General, you may recall this document. It was sent by the

17 internal affairs department of Cair on the 26th of April, 2001. And it's

18 an overview of places from which the Albanian terrorists might surface and

19 target buildings of vital importance.

20 Do you remember this document?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Could you turn, please, to the second page in your version, and

23 we'll be looking at, for those following in English, the last two

24 paragraphs in the English version. Actually, the last three paragraphs, I

25 should say, on page 2.

Page 5092

1 General, there's a paragraph, it says: "In the event of the

2 appearance of terrorist groups and a possible threat to the buildings, we

3 recommend the setting up of check-points at the following locations in the

4 area of Cair -- Cair police station."

5 And then there are several locations mentioned. Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the next paragraph, it says: "In the area of Mirkovci police

8 station, with the aim of monitoring the situation and preventing any

9 possible threat to the vital buildings, we recommend the following

10 strategic points," and then several points are listed there.

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So, just to be clear, at that time the commander of the sector of

14 the Ministry of the Interior for Cair sent recommendations up his chain of

15 command to the Ministry of Interior in Skopje about the placement of

16 check-points. Is that a correct reading of this document?

17 A. This is not a recommendation but it is an overview. So this is an

18 already completed document whereby the head of SVR Cair provides the

19 overview of places where a check-points would be erected.

20 Q. Well, you saw the use of the word "we recommend," the words "we

21 recommend," in those two paragraphs, right? You saw that phrase, "we

22 recommend"?

23 A. Well, not recommends. It would be proposes.

24 Q. All right. Would it -- a better English translation perhaps to

25 say we propose the following locations. Is that better?

Page 5093

1 A. I don't know whether I'm very -- whether I have expertise in

2 English ...

3 Q. No, I'm searching for the right word in your -- I'm searching for

4 the right understanding in your language. And so my question for you is:

5 If you feel the understanding of what is written there is "we propose,"

6 just tell us. That's fine.

7 A. In this document, the proposal is already given. We propose that

8 the check-points are there and there.

9 Q. All right. Okay. What, then, would the members of the Ministry

10 of Interior in the Skopje department do with these proposals?

11 A. They accept them and they put them in their operational maps.

12 Q. Okay. Would these proposals be passed further up the chain of

13 command within the Ministry of the Interior?

14 A. If we request, they're sent to us. Otherwise, they remain in

15 their organisational units.

16 Q. Okay. And if, when you say "we," you mean persons who were in

17 high-ranking positions within the ministry. Is that fair?

18 A. No. I meant my department and my associates.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. Speaking strictly about this issue, there is a sector for special

21 units that processes these issues. So the under-secretary personally does

22 not deal with these issues. We have a line established whereby -- a

23 communication line who carries out these tasks.

24 Q. I guess my question is simply this. Eventually, who would make

25 the final decision approving or rejecting the proposals coming from -- in

Page 5094

1 this instance, Cair?

2 A. The heads of SVR Skopje.

3 Q. All right. Now these check-points, these police check-points that

4 were set up, who manned them, who operated them?

5 A. Mixed active and reserve police officers.

6 Q. And why was it important to have a mixture of active and reserve

7 police officers manning the check-points?

8 A. The total number of active police officers and the tasks -- the

9 tasks given were not able to be carried out in 24 hours only by active

10 police officers. Bearing in mind the terrain that needs to be covered and

11 the time-frame, reserve police officers are called to assist in order to

12 man the check-points and the durations of time.

13 Q. Okay. In these mixed groups of active police and reserve police

14 officers at these check-points, who would be in command?

15 A. In the order for execution of duties, a police officer is assigned

16 responsible or responsible worker and it is always an active police

17 officer or an appropriate officer, if there is such a person in the police

18 station.

19 Q. Okay. So at these check-points in these mixed groups of active

20 and reserve police officers, the reserve police officers would be

21 subordinate to at least one of the active police officers who was

22 present -- who would be present. Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. General, what were the duties or the tasks of the police

25 officers who manned these check-points?

Page 5095

1 A. Depending on the location of the check-point, they had various

2 duties and competences. For example, if we say that patrol that is

3 patrolling the Djonska [phoen] street that is in the -- inside the city

4 and its task is to control suspicious persons, suspicious vehicles and to

5 carry out preventative actions.

6 Q. And, for example, suppose we were to reflect upon a check-point in

7 2001 that was in one of the crisis areas, what responsibilities or duties

8 would the police officers have there?

9 A. That is to control identity, to check the items and persons that

10 are transported, to act preventatively, to receive information,

11 complaints, remarks, et cetera.

12 Q. And you explained that at the check-point itself, an active police

13 officer would be in charge. Above those active police officers, who would

14 be supervising or commanding the operations of -- of these check-points?

15 Whose responsibility that would be?

16 A. The police station commander.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. SAXON: Can we take a look, please, at what is now Exhibit

19 1D184. And perhaps we could ask the usher's assistance. It may be that

20 the binder on the floor behind the General might have this tab. It's at

21 tab 131 of the binder provided by Ms. Residovic.

22 The General may need some help because the binder is pretty full

23 and it's ...

24 Q. General, you may recall this document. It was a document that

25 Ms. Residovic showed to you last week. And we see it's a report regarding

Page 5096

1 a meeting between the minister of interior, Ljube Boskoski, the head of

2 the public safety bureau, Goran Mitevski with Ambassador Daniel Speckhard,

3 the assistant Secretary-General of NATO on the 5th of September, 2001.

4 And we see here, again that there is some discussion about how the police

5 check-points were being manned at that time in September of 2001. And you

6 see a little ways down the first page, we see that Minister Boskoski

7 expressed the following with respect to what has been said, because

8 Ambassador Speckhard asked that people at the check-points not be police

9 reservists or members of the special task unit or posebna. And

10 Minister Boskoski replied that: "There are members of the reserve forces

11 of the police at the check-points but not members of the special task unit

12 or posebna."

13 Do you see that?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. General, how would Minister Boskoski obtain that information about

16 which units of the police were manning the check-points?

17 A. Well, most likely, as far as I can see, the director

18 Goran Mitevski was also present at the meeting.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. He might have -- he might have had the information from him.

21 Q. All right. So this would have been information passed up the

22 chain of command until it eventually reached the minister. Is that fair?

23 A. I can't understand you, what your question is.

24 Q. Well, I guess the information that Goran Mitevski received, would

25 he have received it from lower down on the chain of command? Would that

Page 5097

1 be the normal situation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. General, was Minister Boskoski the kind of minister who kept his

4 promises to the international community?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Lower down on the page, we see that it says: "Regarding the

7 attitude of the police, Minister Boskoski stated that all members of the

8 Ministry of Interior had been given the rules for conduct of the security

9 forces and that everyone who breaches their authorisations or powers will

10 be held responsible pursuant to the Law on Internal Affairs."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This decision to distribute the rules of conduct to all the

14 members of the Ministry of Interior, who made that decision; do you

15 recall?

16 A. I don't recall.

17 Q. Okay. General, what did Minister Boskoski do pursuant to his

18 affirmation here in the report, in the meeting, what did Minister Boskoski

19 do to ensure that police officers who were deployed at police check-points

20 who allegedly abused their authority or committed acts of misconduct were

21 head responsible, according to the Law on Internal Affairs? What did he

22 do to make sure this happened?

23 A. Personally, as a minister?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Well, it is written well here what he stated, that all the members

Page 5098

1 will be issued rules for conduct of the security bodies and everyone that

2 will overstep those authorities will be held responsible pursuant to the

3 Law on the Interior.

4 Q. You're absolutely right; that's what it says here. My question --

5 and I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear. My question actually goes a step

6 further than what is written here. My question is: After the minister

7 made this commitment that everyone who breached their authority would be

8 held responsible pursuant to the Law. After the minister made that

9 commitment to Ambassador Speckhard from NATO, what then did

10 Minister Boskoski do to make sure that this happened, that persons who

11 violated their authority were held responsible?

12 A. As a department for police, we took steps, we prepared these

13 brochures that we distributed both to the active and the reserve police

14 officers. And whose idea was it, was it the minister's or the Director

15 Mitevski, I don't know. I don't know whose idea was that. But as we got

16 the order from Mitevski, as a direct superior and we carried it out. We

17 printed them and distributed all these brochures to the people that were

18 manning the check-points.

19 Q. I understand that. And again, I'm sorry if my question isn't

20 clear. Let's forget for a moment about the distribution of the rules of

21 conduct to the police at the check-point. Let forget about that for a

22 minute, okay?

23 My question actually refers to the rest of the -- the remaining --

24 the last part of the same sentence, where Minister Boskoski makes a

25 commitment that everyone or anyone who breaches their authority will be

Page 5099

1 held responsible pursuant to the Law.

2 My question is: What measures did Minister Boskoski take, what

3 instructions did he give, if any, to make sure that persons who needed to

4 be held accountable were held accountable?

5 A. As you say, this commitment refers to all the superior officer who

6 work and who are heading all the subordinates that are manning the

7 check-points.

8 Q. All right. I'm trying to understand your response.

9 Well, what, then, did Minister Boskoski do to ensure that these

10 superior officers did their job in that respect, that they held people who

11 violated their authority responsible? Did Minister Boskoski give

12 instructions to people like you, people in the collegium? What was done

13 to make sure that this commitment was fulfilled?

14 A. After these meetings would end, after we have these morning

15 meetings, the positions and recommendations are -- people are informed

16 about these positions taken before the international communities. And we,

17 as subordinates are the ones who would then carry out those

18 recommendations.

19 Q. Okay. Based on what you're told to do by the minister?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. And did you and your colleagues in the collegium make your

22 best professional efforts to ensure that everyone who breached their

23 authority, police officers manning check-points, were held accountable,

24 according to the Law and Rules of the Ministry of Interior?

25 A. I think yes.

Page 5100

1 Q. Okay. On Friday, General, and I'm sorry I do not have the exact

2 transcript page on this point, you agreed with a question put by my

3 learned colleague that in September 2001, with respect to these

4 check-points, the police gave authority to the international community in

5 order to help avoid acts of abuses of power by police officers. Do you

6 recall that?

7 A. That we provided authority? I don't understand you.

8 Q. I'm -- I'm paraphrasing a question that was put to you by

9 Ms. Residovic on Friday, asking you whether you agreed that, with respect

10 to these check-points and related to this report that we see in front of

11 us, whether certain authority was given to members of the international

12 community, members of NATO or the OSCE to assist in whatever they could at

13 check-points to avoid abuses.

14 Do you recall that?

15 A. So we are not talking about giving authority but a joint

16 cooperation.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Where we are trying to be open and transparent and to call them to

19 be present at our check-points, the international factors would who would

20 observe and follow police work, so if there is any misconduct for them as

21 an international factor to inform us so that we can undertake the

22 necessary measure for further prosecution. So we are not giving the

23 authority; we just call them for joint cooperation.

24 MR. SAXON: And for the record, Your Honours, this discussion

25 occurred on Friday at page 4997 of the transcript.

Page 5101

1 Q. All right. Just so we understand, General - help us with this -

2 after the Ohrid agreement then, in August of 2001, did the Ministry of

3 Interior's chain of command continue to function?

4 A. Yes, it did.

5 Q. Were orders still sent down the Ministry of Interior's chain of

6 command and reports still sent up the chain of command?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did the Ministry of Interior's disciplinary procedures still

9 function?

10 A. They never stopped.

11 Q. Okay. And you personally, General, in your role then as deputy

12 under-secretary, did you continue to give orders to your subordinates?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. And were your orders carried out?

15 A. This is a very wide question.

16 Q. To the best of your knowledge.

17 A. Yes, they were.

18 Q. Okay. And did you, General, continue to carry out the orders of

19 your superiors?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness, please, what is now Exhibit

22 1D185.

23 Q. And this is an announcement that you saw last week, General, from

24 December 2001, where the Ministry of Interior -- of Internal Affairs

25 guarantees that it will not arrest, detain or bring in citizens of

Page 5102

1 Macedonia who are former members of the NLA who voluntarily hand in their

2 weapons. Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who gave the order to issue this announcement, this public

5 announcement?

6 A. I cannot recall precisely who issued the order for this

7 announcement.

8 Q. All right. Were police officers at the station level, at the OVR

9 level informed about this order, about this announcement and the policy

10 that it contains?

11 A. Yes. And precisely this announcement created a problem because of

12 the lack of speed of the judicial bodies because they did not disseminate

13 a list of the people who have been pardoned in accordance with the Law on

14 Amnesty. Otherwise, we followed these kind of instructions.

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour -- Your Honours, would this be an

16 appropriate time to take the second break? It would be a convenient time

17 for me.

18 JUDGE PARKER: If that's convenient, Mr. Saxon.

19 We will resume at five past.

20 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

23 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Can we please show the witness what is now Exhibit 1D107.

25 Q. And, General Jovanovski, it's actually the very first document in

Page 5103

1 the binder that was given to you.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, Your Honours, this

3 was a document that was in the first binder, and I think that we did not

4 bring this first file for the witness, so maybe the witness could be shown

5 this document just on the screen.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

7 MR. SAXON: I could also give the witness my copy, except that...

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters would kindly to ask Mr. Saxon, if

9 possible, to turn the right microphone off.

10 MR. SAXON: Can we please turn to Article 26 of this document,

11 which in the English version is on page 21.

12 Q. And General Jovanovski, on page 4867 of the transcript on

13 Wednesday, my learned colleague showed you this document. And she

14 reviewed with you Article 26, which provided that the collegium of the

15 Ministry of the Interior is composed of the minister, the deputy minister,

16 the head of the public safety -- public security bureau, the head of the

17 security and counter-intelligence administration, the heads of the

18 departments for police and department for criminal police, and the state

19 secretary.

20 Do you recall this?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you were present at a number of the meetings of the collegium

23 in 2001 and 2002. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At page 4869 of the transcript, you indicated at those meetings,

Page 5104

1 that at those meetings, depending on the matters being discussed at the

2 collegium, Minister Boskoski would issue orders to you or to other members

3 of the collegium and then those orders would be passed down the chain of

4 command of the Ministry of the Interior.

5 Do you recall explaining that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, if we can turn our minds back to Article 26 for a minute.

8 According to Article 26 of Exhibit 1D107, the head of the administration

9 for security and counter-intelligence was also a permanent member of the

10 collegium. And my question then is this: In 2001, depending on the

11 nature of the issue being discussed by the collegium, would

12 Minister Boskoski also issue instructions or tasks to the head of the

13 administration for security and counter-intelligence as well?

14 A. Yes, he was present.

15 Q. I know that he was present. My question was something different

16 though.

17 My question is: Back in 2001, would Minister Boskoski also issue

18 instructions or tasks to the head of the administration for security and

19 counter-intelligence, depending on the issue that was being discussed by

20 the collegium?

21 A. According to the type of tasks and operations that have been

22 conducted by the administration, during these meetings we did not discuss

23 to a great extent the operations and the work of this administration.

24 Q. Okay. But were there times -- were there occasions when the

25 collegium met during the crisis time in 2001, where Minister Boskoski

Page 5105

1 would request that the head of the administration for security and

2 counter-intelligence either carry out a particular task or to try to

3 obtain certain information about what was going on in the crisis areas or

4 some other -- some other issue?

5 A. During the collegiums, I don't remember.

6 Q. Okay. Apart from the -- apart from the collegiums, can you recall

7 whether the head of the administration for security and

8 counter-intelligence would, depending upon the issue and the problem, try

9 to obtain certain information to assist the minister or the other members

10 of the collegium?

11 A. I wouldn't know that.

12 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the head of the administration for

13 security and counter-intelligence in 2001, would, depending on the issue,

14 share information with Minister Boskoski?

15 A. I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. Okay. Well, on Wednesday last week, at page 4877 of the

17 transcript, Ms. Residovic asked you whether Mr. Boskoski ever set up a

18 committee to investigate an issue that had reached him, to shine a light

19 on a certain situation, so to speak, to be informed about perpetrators of

20 certain activities.

21 Do you recall that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you agreed that this was also a manner in which

24 Minister Boskoski tried to learn more information about an issue; do you

25 recall?

Page 5106

1 A. I don't know whether this was specifically for Mr. Boskoski, but

2 every single minister at the ministry would establish such a commissions.

3 Q. All right. And on Thursday, starting at page 4941 of the

4 transcript, you explained to Ms. Residovic that as part of your role as a

5 member of the headquarters for Operation Ramno, you received information

6 from the public security sector, as well as from the state security

7 sector, the directorate for security and counter-intelligence.

8 Do you recall that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And at pages 4941 to 4950 of the transcript, we can see that

11 Ms. Residovic showed you a number of documents that had been produced by

12 members of the state security sector related to the events in Ljuboten

13 during 2001.

14 Do you recall that?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. SAXON: And just for the record, Your Honour, I'm referring to

17 exhibits 1D157 through 1D163, and exhibits 1D165 through 1D168.

18 If we can please show the witness what is 65 ter number 251,

19 please. And if we could -- first of all, this is a document, it's dated

20 the 14th of August, 2001. It's from the minister of the interior, office

21 for security and counter-intelligence, sector for analytics research and

22 information, and the title is, Activities of the National Liberation Army

23 in the village of Ljuboten and its surroundings.

24 Do you see that, General?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 5107

1 Q. And this document, the first paragraph, talks about a terrorist

2 group led by Xhavid Asani and Nazmi Sulejman having moved to the area of

3 Skopska Crna Gora where they're preparing to undertake or where they had

4 undertaken preparatory activities to continue their armed activities and

5 terrorist actions against members and buildings of the Ministry of

6 Interior and the army of the Republic of Macedonia.

7 Below that, it says: "The terrorist group has determined the

8 village Ljuboten as their main logistics base."

9 Do you see that, General?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then a couple of paragraphs down below, it talks about the

12 mine explosion on the 10th of August at Ljubotenski Bacila where a number

13 of Macedonian army soldiers lost their lives. Do you see that?

14 A. Yes, nine soldiers lost their lives.

15 Q. Can we -- can we, in both versions, can we scroll down so we can

16 see the rest of page, please.

17 And then at the bottom it says: "Submitted to Ljube Boskoski, the

18 minister of internal affairs, and Nikola Speceski [phoen], head of the

19 sector for counter-intelligence."

20 Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can we agree, then, General, that certain information obtained by

23 the directorate for security and counter-intelligence concerning the

24 events in Ljuboten was also provided to Minister Boskoski? Can we see

25 that from this document?

Page 5108

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'd seek to tender this document, please.

3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P438, Your Honours.

5 MR. SAXON: Can we now show the witness what is Exhibit 1D165,

6 please. And this is a document from the 6th of September, 2001, and it is

7 from the security and counter-intelligence division of the Ministry of the

8 Interior. And it talks about, as we've seen before, a meeting which took

9 place on the 4th and 5th of September, 2001. And the source provides

10 certain information about the events in Ljuboten village.

11 Q. Do you see that, General?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. SAXON: Can we turn to the next page, please, in both

14 versions.

15 I'm sorry, can we turn to the very last page in both versions.

16 Q. If we could focus now on that last paragraph. And that last

17 paragraph says: "The aforementioned information that Sali Mamer as a

18 member of a 30-strong paramilitary group was at NLA positions in the

19 village of Ljuboten on the 12th of August this year, only serves to prove

20 that there were really members of this terrorist group in the village of

21 Ljuboten between 11 and 14 August. And that the action of the security

22 forces of the Republic of Macedonia, on 12 August, was undertaken for the

23 neutralization of the terrorists in the area and was not directed against

24 the civilian population of the village, as was recently tendentiously

25 claimed by the humanitarian organisation Human Rights Watch which is

Page 5109

1 striving to present the casualties in the ranks of the NLA as civilian

2 casualties of the supposed repressive Ministry of Interior action."

3 Do you see that? Do you see that, General?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. General, do you think that members -- operative members of the

6 administration for security and counter-intelligence, with their resources

7 and abilities for obtaining information, could have identified the members

8 of the Ministry of Interior who were present in Ljuboten on the 12th of

9 August, 2001?

10 A. I cannot understand what you're trying...

11 Q. Well, we've seen from these documents and the other documents that

12 my learned colleague showed you last week that the department for security

13 and counter-intelligence, UBK/DBK was able to obtain quite a lot of

14 information about the events in and around Ljuboten, both before the

15 events of August 2001 and even afterwards.

16 So my question is: With all of their abilities for obtaining

17 information, do you think that the members of the administration for

18 security and counter-intelligence could have identified the members of the

19 Ministry of Interior who were present in Ljuboten on the 12th of August,

20 2001?

21 A. I'm not a competent person to give this kind of comments.

22 Q. Okay. On last Thursday at page 4909 of the transcript,

23 Ms. Residovic asked you whether when the Lions Brigade was established it

24 was composed of existing members of the police, either from the posebna

25 unit or from the reserve police forces, and you replied yes. Do you

Page 5110

1 recall that?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. Do you recall who was the commander of the Lions Brigade in 2001?

4 A. That was Goran Stojkov.

5 Q. What was Mr. Stojkov's job before he became the commander of the

6 Lions?

7 A. I can't precisely tell what position he was on. I don't recall.

8 Q. All right. Do you know if Mr. Stojkov took part in the combat

9 activities during the crisis period in 2001?

10 A. I can take the freedom to say that he never participated in any

11 combat activities.

12 Q. All right. On Thursday -- actually, let me step back for a

13 minute.

14 How do you know for a fact that Goran Stojkov never participated

15 in any combat activities, if you don't even know what position he held

16 before he became commander of the Lions?

17 A. Because after he became a commander of the Rapid Deployment Unit

18 he was under the command of the police department, of the department for

19 the police.

20 Q. I'm sorry, the problem was with my earlier question. Before

21 Mr. Stojkov became commander of the Lions, do you know whether he took

22 part in any combat activities during the crisis period in 2001?

23 A. As far as I remember, he never participated in combat activities.

24 Q. Okay. Then tell us, please, what qualified Mr. Stojkov to become

25 the commander of the Lions?

Page 5111

1 A. Since we serve in the army, he served in the special units in the

2 army, and he had such recommendations.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. Let me clarify. That he was not the only one who command -- who

5 commanded with the Rapid Deployment Unit, but he had an entire parties

6 below him. He had a platoon commanders and company commanders that were

7 actually commanding with the operations.

8 Q. What was Mr. Stojkov's relationship like with Minister Boskoski?

9 A. As far as I was able to see, it was a professional one.

10 Q. On Thursday of last week, at page 4909 of the transcript, you told

11 the Trial Chamber that no paramilitary groups became part of the Lions,

12 regardless of the fact whether they existed anywhere in Macedonia. Do you

13 remember that?

14 A. During the time of the crisis, every -- every of the troops in the

15 regions were called names of animals depending on the area that the animal

16 lives in. We had sarplaninci in Tetovo, we had snakes in -- we had other

17 animals, lynxes, we had an entire zoo. That's what they used to call them

18 themselves, but they didn't act in a paramilitary fashion.

19 Q. But I guess my question is simply this: During the crisis time in

20 2001, did paramilitary groups exist?

21 A. No.

22 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness, please, what is Exhibit 227,

23 and I'm only going to show the first part of the video.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 MR. SAXON: I'm asking for Exhibit 227. It is a video.

Page 5112

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE PARKER: We have a photograph with that number.

3 MR. SAXON: Then I stand -- I stand corrected, Your Honours. This

4 was a clip which my learned colleague showed the witness and it is from 65

5 ter number 979. It was made in November of 2002 at the ceremony where the

6 Lions received their employment contracts. And it's time code 00:31:16 to

7 00:32:59.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it is a mistake. It is

9 not 2002. I think it is 2001.

10 MR. SAXON: I stand corrected. I'm grateful to Ms. Residovic.

11 She's absolutely right; it was November 2001. I misspoke.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE PARKER: The videos are not in e-court. They must be

14 published by the parties.

15 MR. SAXON: I understand that, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Here we are.

17 [Videotape played]


19 Q. General Jovanovski, you heard the commentator saying in the future

20 the Rapid Deployment Unit will be called the Lions as it was called at the

21 time of the fiercest fighting?

22 A. That is just a reporter's comment.

23 Q. I know that. And I want to ask you a question about it, okay?

24 At what battle, or battles, did the Lions get their name?

25 A. Speaking about the Lions, it will take a lot of time. That is

Page 5113

1 connected with the history of the Macedonian nation.

2 Q. Well, I understand that the Lions have a particular symbol,

3 symbolism in the Macedonian nation. The -- and we see the insignia there

4 on -- insignia of the Lion on a person's cap there. But my question is:

5 You heard the comment of the journalist that the Rapid Intervention Unit

6 will be the Lions as it was called at the time of the fiercest fighting.

7 My question is simply this: What operations or combat operations

8 did the Lions or the precursors of the Lions get their name?

9 A. I can freely say that they never received this name in any

10 operation. But the name Lions is connected with the Macedonian history.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MR. SAXON: If we can now remove that exhibit, please.

13 Q. At page 5008 of the transcript on Friday, you explained that --

14 Your Honour, I would still seek to tender that clip, if I may?

15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

16 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm hearing from my more organised

17 colleagues today that this clip has already been exhibited. So I will

18 withdraw my request to tender it.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Can we learn the exhibit number so that the

20 transcript reveals it? You're being coached, I see.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is P277.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I am very grateful.

23 MR. SAXON: So am I.

24 Q. Moving on to a different topic, General, at page 5008 of the

25 transcript on Friday you explained that according to Macedonian law, the

Page 5114

1 police have no authority to interview persons as witnesses. Do you recall

2 explaining that?

3 A. I don't recall saying this precisely.

4 Q. Okay. Would you take my word for it, or do you want me to ... It

5 was in response to a question from Ms. Residovic where she asked you

6 whether it's true that the Macedonian police have no authority to formally

7 interview persons as witnesses, and you said yes.

8 Does that make sense to you?

9 A. If the witnesses are part of a judicial investigation.

10 Q. Okay. All right. But the police do have the authority to collect

11 information from citizens. Isn't that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As part of that authority, would a criminal inspector member of

14 the crime police have the authority to speak with police officers who were

15 present at the scene of a crime and gather information from them?

16 A. Yes, they can speak with anyone.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. SAXON: Can we show the witness what is now Exhibit 1D33,

19 please. 1D33.

20 On Friday, General Jovanovski, Ms. Residovic showed you this

21 document at page 5034 of the transcript, and you may recall this is the

22 proposal from the Ministry of the Interior dated the 7th of September,

23 2001 to the public prosecutor's office and the investigating judge in

24 Skopje that an exhumation be performed in the Ljuboten village. Do you

25 recall that.

Page 5115

1 A. I do.

2 MR. SAXON: Can we now show the witness what is Exhibit P55,

3 please.

4 And I have not done what I should have done, but I'm very grateful

5 to my colleague Ms. Regue for saving me once again.

6 If we can turn to what is N002-1148 within Exhibit P55.

7 Perhaps Ms. Walpita could tell us what -- in terms of the broken

8 down exhibits numbers, what number this would be. I see Ms. Guduric has

9 found it already.

10 Q. You'll see here, General, this is the proposal of the public

11 prosecutor just three days later, to the investigative judge to carry out

12 an exhumation. And so we can see here that the public prosecutor acted

13 quite quickly on the initiative of the Ministry of the Interior. Is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes, if this is what it reads here.

16 Q. Tell me, General, do you think that the Ministry of the Interior

17 could have proposed that the public prosecutor and the investigative judge

18 identify and interview the members of the Ministry of Interior who were

19 present in Ljuboten on the 12th of August, 2001? Could the Ministry of

20 Interior have made that initiative?

21 A. I'm not aware about it. I don't know.

22 Q. Well, if the Ministry of the Interior was able to make proposals

23 to take these kinds of initiatives and send them to the public prosecutor

24 and the court, was there anything stopping them from sending other kinds

25 of proposals to the same judicial bodies?

Page 5116

1 A. As I said, I don't work in that part of the ministry, so this

2 practice is not familiar to me.

3 Q. Well, I understand that the practice may not be familiar to you.

4 But can you think of anything that would have prevented the Ministry of

5 the Interior from making additional proposals to the public prosecutor and

6 the investigative judge?

7 A. If the -- if the investigating judge would have asked, we as a

8 ministry would have send those information to him. If we had it.

9 Q. I'm not asking about sending information. I'm asking about

10 sending proposals, sending initiatives.

11 A. Yes. But the judicial bodies have already started their

12 activities and this is now under the competence of the judicial bodies.

13 Q. That's right. And for that reason, in this case, the Ministry of

14 the Interior took the initiative to send a proposal to the judicial

15 bodies. Isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would anything have stopped the Ministry of the Interior from

18 providing additional proposals?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Okay. On Friday at page 5012 of the transcript, you explained to

21 my learned colleague that during a meeting of the committee that you led

22 in 2003, you said this: "An Official Note might be prepared. A report or

23 minutes. This is a final document that has three names, so to say,

24 Official Note, report, or minutes. It all depends on the person that

25 would make it and the person who would make it would title it in a certain

Page 5117

1 way."

2 General Jovanovski, can you tell us, please, what do you mean by

3 the term "final document"?

4 A. A final document, when the meeting is over, or the gathering, so

5 then the final document is being prepared. For instance, when this

6 session finishes then we will have the transcript from today. This would

7 be the final document.

8 Q. All right. Did all such final documents form part of the official

9 record of the work of the 2003 commission that you led?

10 A. Yes, it would.

11 Q. At page 5017 of the transcript, Ms. Residovic asked you whether,

12 when you led the commission in 2003, you had or could have had documents

13 that were then in the files of the public prosecutor and the courts, and

14 you answered no. Do you remember that exchange?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. General, can you cite to any Macedonian law that prevents members

17 of the Ministry of the Interior from asking permission to review materials

18 in the files of the public prosecutor or the courts?

19 A. I am not aware whether such law exists. However, the

20 investigative bodies do not provide the files to be reviewed by the

21 police.

22 Q. But it's not prohibited to ask to see such files, is it?

23 A. I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. On Friday, at page 5026 of the transcript, Ms. Residovic asked you

25 whether, from the information provided to the commission that you led by

Page 5118

1 Johan Tarculovski, you could determine whether Johan Tarculovski -- excuse

2 me, whether you could determine whether Mr. Tarculovski was in the village

3 at all and with whom. Do you remember that question?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you replied that the commission could not determine this from

6 Johan Tarculovski's statements nor from the statements of other persons

7 who were called to speak to the commission. Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And at page 5027 of the transcript, Ms. Residovic asked you

10 whether the commission could conclude whether Minister Boskoski had any

11 connection with Mr. Tarculovski with respect to the events in Ljuboten,

12 and you responded no. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 MR. SAXON: And I'm wondering if we could give back to

15 General Jovanovski the Prosecution's binder of materials. And if we could

16 turn to what is tab 12 of this binder. It's part of the exhibit marked

17 for identification P00379, and it's also Rule 65 ter 285.12.

18 Q. Can you turn to tab 12, please? You've got it there, General,

19 right? And can you turn to the Macedonian version, please. It's there --

20 it's there. That's it, General. And if we can turn to page 2 in the

21 English version, in the English version, and page 3 in the Macedonian

22 version, please. And I may need the assistance of the usher to assist

23 General Jovanovski find certain parts in the Macedonian version.

24 If we could have the assistance of the usher, please. This is the

25 Official Note written by Ljube Krstevski on the 19th of November, 2003.

Page 5119

1 There's a typo in the date, in the English version. And if we could turn

2 to page 2 of the English version.

3 And General Jovanovski, if you could take a look at what is the

4 fourth page in the Macedonian version, please. Could you turn to the

5 fourth page in the Macedonian version.

6 And, Mr. Usher, if it would assist, I've highlighted the passage

7 that I'd like General Jovanovski to look at.

8 Can we have the second page of the English version, please.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] There is a slight confusion on the

12 screen. We can see from the Prosecution binder a handwritten text and a

13 translation in English, but as far as we can see, this is not the

14 statement by Ljube Krstevski. So now we don't know whether the Prosecutor

15 wants to show the statement by Ljube Krstevski or the statement by another

16 person, Vanco, or I'm not quite sure what his name is.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder, whether, Mr. Saxon, it might be better to

18 continue in the morning.

19 MR. SAXON: I think that would be a prudent course, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Might save everybody some time in the long run.

21 You've got something else, Ms. Residovic.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Regardless of

23 the fact that my learned colleague praised me about our organisation of

24 evidence, we still believe that there is some kind of confusion regarding

25 the video footage that my learned colleague wanted to propose or tender as

Page 5120

1 evidence. Namely, as it was mentioned by my colleague, this was a video

2 footage that the Defence counsel presented to the witness, but the Defence

3 presented just P277. However, now, when we checked the transcript with

4 the wording that was said on the video footage that was shown to the

5 witness today, we can see that this is not the same video material.

6 I think that the video footage that my learned colleagues has

7 shown to the witness in the direct examination and it was stopped, and

8 that is why I think that tomorrow it might be good for the learned -- my

9 learned colleagues to see this video again, thus avoiding the possibility

10 for this video to be accepted as evidence, since maybe he would like for

11 this video footage to be tendered into evidence.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that. And we will leave that to the

14 mature reflection of Mr. Saxon overnight.

15 MR. SAXON: I'm honoured, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume tomorrow at 9.00.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m., to

18 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of September,

19 2007, at 9.00 a.m.