Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5500

1 Monday, 24 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 Mr. Saxon, you're standing. Is there something before I have the

8 witness affirm?

9 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I had left a request last

10 night with the court officer to see if I could simply raise a very brief

11 matter before the witness begins his testimony. I can do it at another

12 time.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Is there a reason for the witness not to be in

14 court.

15 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour. The witness may be present in court.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Let me deal with the witness first.

17 Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read aloud the affirmation

18 on the card.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

24 Now, Mr. Saxon.

25 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 5501

1 Very briefly, Your Honour, the Prosecution may have caused some

2 confusion with its most recent two-week list of witnesses because we

3 realised today that the latest schedule referred to not this witness but

4 the following witness, Mr. Nazim Bushi as a 92 bis witness. That is

5 incorrect, Your Honour. Mr. Bushi will be a fully viva voce witness

6 pursuant to the Trial Chamber's decision of 30 March this year.

7 The second issue is simply to inform the Chamber of a disclosure

8 error that I discovered late last week. It's simply that the Prosecution

9 located a hard copy printout of an article that had been taken from the

10 Internet at the site of the Institute for War and Peace Reporting, IWPR

11 and it was an article that had been written by a Prosecution witness,

12 Peter Bouckaert. And the article discussed the situation in Macedonia in

13 2001 and also touched upon the events in Ljuboten. And in the

14 Prosecution's submission, this is something that should have been

15 disclosed earlier under Rule 66(A)(ii). So it was disclosed on Friday

16 afternoon to the Defence. And I just wanted to put that on the record.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

18 MR. SAXON: And Ms. Motoike will be leading the next witness, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I think Ms. Motoike has some questions

21 for you now.

22 Yes Ms. Motoike.

23 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon Your

24 Honours.

25 Examination by Ms. Motoike:

Page 5502

1 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Sir, is your name Zoran Trajkovski?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are you a citizen of Macedonia?

4 A. Yes, I'm a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia.

5 Q. And is your ethnicity Macedonian?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in August of 2001 were you the chief of the personal security

8 for the former minister, Ljube Boskoski?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you recall when you were appointed to this particular

11 position?

12 A. When the minister became minister of the interior.

13 Q. Okay. That would be sometime in the beginning of 2000 then?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And for how long did you hold this particular position; that is,

16 is the chief of the personal security?

17 A. Until September 2002.

18 Q. Are you currently still a member of the Macedonian police?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what position do you hold now?

21 A. Police officer in police station Dracevo.

22 Q. And how long have you been with the Macedonian police to date?

23 A. 16 years.

24 Q. Okay. The security unit you were the chief of, was this unit part

25 of the sector for security and protection?

Page 5503

1 A. Formally, yes.

2 Q. And in 2001, did you know a person by the name of Blagoja

3 Jakovoski?

4 A. My apologies. Can you please repeat the year?

5 Q. In 2001.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. And was Mr. Jakovoski, was he one of the persons under your

8 supervision as chief?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was the sector for security and protection a part of the Ministry

11 of Interior in 2001?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As chief of this personal security unit, did you issue orders to

14 your subordinates within this particular unit?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And was there a chain of command in the sector for

17 security and protection, in 2001?

18 A. In part, yes.

19 Q. Okay. Can you explain to us what you mean by "in part"?

20 A. The sector for security, Zivko Gacovski, assistant minister of the

21 interior is the superior. In the line of things, he is the superior of

22 the 6th unit which is in charge of security of VIP persons, the minister

23 of the interior, prime minister, president, et cetera. However, direct

24 orders regarding securities were mainly through the minister in person.

25 Zivko Gacovski, that is to say the assistant minister took more care of

Page 5504

1 the technical aspects of the work, the material aspects of the work.

2 Q. Okay. So if I understand you, the minister would be the one

3 mainly issuing orders, and then the assistant minister took care of more

4 technical aspects?

5 A. I told you that the assistant minister of the 6th department is

6 Zivko Gacovski, Gacovski. He in charge of the 6th department. However

7 the security of the minister functioned in the way in which I just

8 presented it to you. We received orders from the minister. Therefore,

9 Zivko Gacovski, almost -- was almost never informed of our whereabouts and

10 our movements. He took care more regarding issues of protocol for foreign

11 delegations and so forth.

12 Q. Thank you. In your position as chief of security, did you spend a

13 lot of time in Mr. Boskoski's presence?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As the chief of security, did you consider yourself a close

16 associate of Mr. Boskoski?

17 A. Surely, yes.

18 Q. Did you come to respect Mr. Boskoski as the minister of the

19 interior?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when Mr. Boskoski was the minister, did he interact often with

22 police officers and commanders within the Ministry of Interior?

23 A. Yes, frequently, yes.

24 Q. Okay. And as the minister, do you recall if Mr. Boskoski was

25 close to the police officers and the commanders?

Page 5505

1 A. He was very close with the police officers. Most often with the

2 police officers.

3 Q. During the time he was minister did he often express concern for

4 the police officers within the Ministry of Interior?

5 A. For the police officers as well as for all citizens of the

6 Republic of Macedonia.

7 Q. And as the minister, did Mr. Boskoski often ask the commanders

8 about how the officers within their particular units were doing?

9 A. I don't know. I think on a regular basis, on each collegium, he

10 informed himself about the situation.

11 Q. As the minister in 2001, did Mr. Boskoski also try to keep abreast

12 of what the officers were doing in the field?

13 A. I presumed this would be so.

14 Q. Okay. In 2001, did Mr. Boskoski visit the crisis areas?

15 A. Not only the crisis but also other areas as well.

16 Q. Well, in particular, let's just focus on the crisis areas.

17 As chief of security did you accompany Mr. Boskoski at that time

18 when he visited the crisis areas?

19 A. Most often, yes.

20 Q. And in 2001, do you recall if Mr. Boskoski visited police units in

21 Karadak and Tetovo?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During these visits did you often go to places at the time -- at

24 the same time these events were unfolding at these particular areas?

25 A. I did not understand you well. Could you please repeat your

Page 5506

1 question.

2 Q. I apologise; it was my phrasing.

3 My question was when you went to the crisis areas, are there

4 occasions when you would go to a particular area and -- and the events at

5 that area were unfolding at that time. That is, everything was still

6 happening at that time.

7 A. No, no.

8 Q. So when you visited the crisis areas then, did you meet with, or

9 did Mr. Boskoski meet with the units in those areas?

10 A. With the commanding personnel with officers, yes, to inform

11 himself of the situation on the ground.

12 Q. And at that time would he also - he, being Mr. Boskoski - would he

13 also give orders to the commanders of these units?

14 A. Never in my presence. Never.

15 Q. But you saw Mr. Boskoski meeting with the commanders, you said, of

16 the police units in these areas.

17 A. Yes. I told you this. His presence was there to get firsthand

18 about the situation on the given ground.

19 Q. In June and/or July of 2001, do you recall visiting other places

20 with the minister? And I know that you spoke of not only crisis areas but

21 other areas. Do you recall visiting areas such as Zilce, Tetovo and Ratae

22 about the security situations?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Sir, if we could, I would like to, with the assistance of

25 Ms. Walpita, show a video-clip at this time.

Page 5507

1 MS. MOTOIKE: It is 65 ter 974.

2 And, for the record, this is a clip from Macedonian Television.

3 It was made around July and/or August of 2001.

4 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, you said you were a police officer for 16 years.

5 I would like you to take a look at the screen. Could you tell us whether

6 you recognise the vehicles that are depicted in this particular video?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are these vehicles what one would term as an APC and/or Hermelin

9 vehicle?

10 A. Hermelin, yes.

11 Q. Are these vehicles like the Hermelins that were used by the

12 Ministry of Interior back in 2001?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did the Ministry of Interior, though, have what are vehicles like

15 this that are called Hermelin, in 2001?

16 A. Hermelin yes; but without the machine-gun [indiscernible] dome.

17 Q. Okay. So actually, let's show another part of this particular

18 clip, please. So we can continue to play.

19 For the record that clip was at 9.08 seconds.

20 Q. And you reference a machine-gun -- I'm sorry?

21 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would like our

23 colleague -- would like to ask our colleagues to make the time more

24 precise of these clips, because it is -- was mentioned very broadly in

25 July/August of that year, but on this clip we do not see the year that was

Page 5508

1 mentioned.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to assist, Ms. Motoike.

3 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, we received this clip from the

4 Macedonian -- it is a clip from the Macedonian Television, and at that

5 time we were given an approximate date of this because of the area in

6 which we believe that these -- this footage was shot would be July to

7 August of 2001. And I apologise I can't be more specific than that.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


10 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, we're now looking at another part of this

11 particular clip. And you had mentioned earlier a machine-gun. Do you see

12 the machine gun here that is basically mounted on the top of what looks to

13 be a vehicle?

14 A. I see a machine-gun which is fixated with some sort of improvised

15 apparatus.

16 Q. And in 2001 are you saying that did you not see vehicles like

17 this, as far as in the Ministry of Interior, with the machine-gun strapped

18 on like that?

19 A. Until 2002, no.

20 Q. Okay. And that particular footage is at 15.06 of this particular

21 clip. If we continue to play. Actually, that is the end of it. Thank

22 you very much.

23 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours I would at this time be seeking to

24 tender this particular video-clip which is at 1.26.06 to 1.26.18, part of

25 65 ter 974.

Page 5509

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 Ms. Residovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, prior to your

4 decision we wanted to object because the Prosecution itself does not know

5 the time of this clip. Furthermore, the witness could not recognise this

6 Hermelin at the time, which is offered by the Prosecution.

7 JUDGE PARKER: That's not my understanding of his evidence. I

8 thought he recognised the vehicle but indicated that it is wasn't fitted

9 with a machine-gun in the way that was shown on that photograph until

10 2002.

11 Is that not the evidence?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This is what we heard, that this

13 was the testimony of the witness. However, the Prosecution offered this

14 as evidence for July and August of 2001. However, as a whole, the

15 statement has -- is also included in the statement of the witness, so with

16 the explanation which you have given us, we accept this as such.

17 Thank you.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Let me make it clear: The Prosecution has not been

19 able to lead from this witness the date upon which that video film was

20 taken. The witness says that he recognised this photograph-- or this film

21 to be of Hermelin vehicles, of a type that was in use in 2001 but he does

22 not recognise the machine-guns fitted as they were in the photograph. He

23 saw that not before 2002.

24 Now, on that basis, do you want to tender this video,

25 Ms. Motoike?

Page 5510

1 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

3 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P453, Your Honours.


6 Q. And, Mr. Trajkovski, again, we'd like to show you a different clip

7 from the same 65 ter number, 974.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MS. MOTOIKE: And for the record this is it again the same

10 Macedonian Television clip that we received that we believe was sought

11 sometime in July and August 2001.

12 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, you earlier testified that Mr. Boskoski and you

13 would visit the areas regarding security situations and you've seen this

14 particular clip. We've stopped it here now, and there are some people

15 depicted on the video-clip that is here on the screen.

16 Do you recognise whose's depicted here in the video?

17 A. I recognise the minister of interior, my colleague Blagoja, and

18 the commander of the police station, an ethnic Albanian.

19 Q. And do you know where this particular police station was?

20 A. I believe this is the border crossing of Jezince.

21 Q. And in this particular -- you said that your colleague Blagoja.

22 Is that Blagoja Jakovoski we've discussed earlier?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if I can assist the record is that the person that is, as you

25 look at the screen, on the left of the photo wearing the sun-glasses and

Page 5511

1 the baseball cap?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you've indicated you recognise Mr. Boskoski. That would be

4 the person, then, in the middle of the screen who is wearing the

5 sun-glasses and the belt. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So the police commander that you've also testified about, is that

8 the person that is wearing a blue vest in the right of the photo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And were you -- during this visit, were you present as well?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And can you tell us around what time this visit occurred, what

13 month and year?

14 A. I cannot recall. I only know that during the visit there were

15 international presence there, OSCE, UNPROFOR or UNPREDEP. I don't recall

16 how it was called at that time exactly.

17 Q. Okay. And so for the record, we stopped this at 31.06 seconds.

18 MS. MOTOIKE: If we can continue to play, please.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. MOTOIKE: If you could stop it for a second.

21 Q. Mr. Trajkovski what we're seeing now through this video is

22 basically some cars and some what you've described as Hermelins travelling

23 down a road. Do you recall if when you went to visit places with

24 Mr. Boskoski, is this basically what -- what kind of vehicles you would

25 travel in?

Page 5512

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you recall ever travelling with the minister in this kind of a

3 what I'd loose term convoy or series of cars?

4 A. As I am able to recall, only to one other place.

5 Q. Okay. And what place would that have been to?

6 A. Police station Matejce. However, this wasn't a convoy but there

7 was a Hermelin there.

8 MS. MOTOIKE: If we can continue to play, please.

9 [Videotape played]


11 Q. And this we have stopped at 1 minute 3 seconds, .4 on the clip.

12 Again, Mr. Trajkovski, do you recognise the persons depicted in

13 this particular clip?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us, please, who you recognise? And if you could,

16 describe where they are in the picture.

17 A. I recognise myself, the last one with the black cap on this

18 photograph, on this clip, Mr. Risto Galevski in the middle, and in front

19 the minister of the interior, Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

20 Q. And I'm sorry. I'm going to ask you if you remember when this

21 particular visit occurred?

22 A. I do not recall.

23 Q. Okay. Do you recall if this visit was around the same time as the

24 prior clip that we've seen?

25 A. I presume, yes.

Page 5513

1 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what location are you visiting at that

2 point?

3 A. I believe border crossing Jezince.

4 Q. When you spoke of visits by Mr. Boskoski to areas regarding the

5 security situations, would this video and the other video be an example of

6 those visits?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What was the purpose in visiting this -- these particular areas,

9 these two borders?

10 A. I cannot recall.

11 Q. Let me ask you this: When these visits occurred, did Mr. Boskoski

12 do the same thing you've described earlier, and that is meet with the

13 police officers there at those particular locations?

14 A. Could you please rephrase your question? I did not understand you

15 well.

16 Q. Okay. When these two particular visits you said you were -- you

17 were at these visits, the two clips that we've seen. Is that right?

18 A. I did not -- I don't see two visits here. This is one visit in

19 question.

20 Q. Okay. I guess I'm referring to the other clip that we saw where

21 Mr. Boskoski and your colleague Mr. Jakovoski were there. Do you remember

22 that clip?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was that a separate, a different location than is depicted in this

25 particular clip?

Page 5514

1 A. I think not. I think this is the same place in question.

2 Q. Okay. My apologies. And if this is the same place in question,

3 I'm just asking you if this -- these two clips that we've seen, is that an

4 example of the visits that Mr. Boskoski would make to units in the field?

5 A. Surely not.

6 Q. Okay. During this particular visit, did Mr. Boskoski meet with

7 any of the police officers? You said that was a commander there in the

8 other clip. Did he meet with police officers there at this particular

9 location?

10 A. I cannot recall precisely.

11 Q. Okay.

12 MS. MOTOIKE: Continue to play, please.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MS. MOTOIKE: Okay. You can stop.

15 Your Honours, I would also seek to tender this particular clip.

16 For the record the time from the 65 ter 974 clip is 1 hour 26 minutes 6

17 seconds to 1 hour 27 minutes 8 seconds.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P454, Your Honours.

20 MS. MOTOIKE: My apologies.

21 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, this visit that we've just seen in the video-clip,

22 that was covered by the media. Were there occasions when the minister

23 visited areas and the media were not present?

24 A. I can't remember. There must have been events where media were

25 not present.

Page 5515

1 Q. Going back to the visits that you recalled at places like Zilce

2 and Tetovo, do you recall if the minister gave orders to the police

3 commanders who were present at those locations?

4 A. I will repeat them as did I at the beginning. The minister of the

5 interior never issued such order in my presence. He was just a

6 representative of the government in the Ministry of Interior. He was a

7 political figure.

8 Q. Okay. I guess my question was -- okay, I withdraw that.

9 During your visits to places like Zilce and Tetovo, would the

10 minister speak to the commanders as well as the civilians who were

11 present?

12 A. To be honest, I can't remember precisely.

13 Q. Okay. Do you recall making a -- providing a witness statement to

14 the Office of the Prosecution on 27 April 2004?

15 A. I recall very little. I signed that statement then in the English

16 language. It was read to me, and to this date, I haven't read it again.

17 Q. Okay. Well, I guess my question is: Then you recall making a

18 statement. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And would reviewing a part of that statement which pertains

21 to the subject matter we're on, would reviewing a part of that statement

22 refresh your recollection as to the question I asked you about meetings

23 with the commanders?

24 A. Let me then look at the statement.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 5516

1 MS. MOTOIKE: We have hard copies, if the usher could assist us,

2 please. This is also uploaded in e-court, ERN range is N000-6835 to

3 N000-6844. And the Macedonian version has MF on the back.

4 Q. And if I could, Mr. Trajkovski, ask to you look at -- first of all

5 you indicated that you did sign the witness statement. Do you see that,

6 your signature there on the front of the statement as well as the last

7 page and every page of the statement?

8 A. Yes. In the bottom left corner everywhere.

9 Q. And if I could draw your attention in particular to paragraph 22?

10 MS. MOTOIKE: And we could pull that up on the screen as well for

11 you in the Macedonian version. It is it on page 6 of the English and page

12 6 of the Macedonian.

13 Q. And the first part of this sentence says: "Other activities of

14 the minister in reference to the security situation in the time-period of

15 June and/or July were that we were visiting Zilce, Tetovo and Ratae. By

16 these occasion the minister had conversations with the civilians and local

17 representatives and was giving orders to the police commanders."

18 Do you see that, Mr. Trajkovski?

19 A. Yes, I see it.

20 Q. And after reading that, are you able to tell us now whether or not

21 you remember if the minister spoke to the commanders as well as the

22 civilians at these particular locations?

23 A. I remember that there were moments when he spoke to them, but he

24 told me that that was just an interview with certain superior officer and

25 never an order. So what is written here, I haven't said.

Page 5517

1 Q. Okay. But had you an opportunity, though, back in 2004 though you

2 said to read the statement -- have the statement read to you in English,

3 is that right -- I mean read to you in Macedonian. Is that right?

4 A. The only thing I signed was the statement in the English language,

5 a language that I have only passive command of. The statement was read to

6 me by a gentleman, I think it was Thomas Kuehnel, and I signed every page

7 of it. This is the first time I see the statement in the Macedonian

8 language.

9 Q. So we're clear, you said it was read to you by a gentleman named

10 Thomas Kuehnel. Was it read to you by him in English and then it was

11 interpreted at the same time into Macedonian?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And going back to these particular visits of Zilce, Tetovo and

14 Ratae, if there were complaints about the behaviour of the police, do you

15 recall how the minister handled those?

16 A. So specifically about this territory, Zilce, Ratae, Tetovo

17 villages, I don't remember that there have ever been complaints by the

18 commanding officers regarding any problems with the police officers.

19 Q. In other areas, if there were complaints, meaning other areas,

20 meaning other sites or crisis areas that you visited if there were

21 complaints about the behaviour of certain officers do you recall how the

22 minister would handle those?

23 A. Let me just go back to the statement -- the sentence I said

24 before. In item 23, what I wrote there is that the reason why he was so

25 frequently travelling personally to the crisis area was to get firsthand

Page 5518

1 information. So not to issue orders but to get information. So this is

2 related to your previous question.

3 But to the question that you ask now, yes, I remember the Vaksince

4 case when the commander of the Tigers unit, upon a complaint of one of the

5 superior officers, I suppose it would have been an army general in the

6 army of the Republic of Macedonia, Toni Mandarovski was suspend from duty

7 and then there was a disciplinary action against him and after that he was

8 replaced from the office.

9 Q. Okay. Since we're on the topic of the Tigers, in 2001, then, do

10 you know of a unit called the Tigers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And you said that -- well, let me just ask you this:

13 Minister Boskoski then responded to this complaint by the army official

14 regarding the commander of the Tigers at that time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What kind of contact did Mr. Boskoski, outside of this particular

17 issue with Commander Mandarovski, what kind of contact did Minister

18 Boskoski in 2001 have with the unit called the Tigers?

19 A. I have seen Mr. Toni Mandarovski several time in the Ministry of

20 the Interior always at the collegium that the minister of the interior

21 convened with the commanders of the other units.

22 Q. Okay. And going back then -- well, let me ask you this: How

23 often did this collegium meet with the minister of the interior?

24 A. I think that most commonly it was once a week.

25 Q. Okay. And who were the other persons who were present at this

Page 5519

1 collegium?

2 A. This collegium or any collegium?

3 Q. This particular collegium, the one that you're saying met once a

4 week who had at least Commander Mandarovski and Mr. Boskoski present.

5 A. It seems that you are trying to twist my words. I said that I had

6 seen Mr. Mandarovski at the Ministry of Interior whenever he would be

7 invited to a collegium. But he was never alone with the minister. It

8 does not mean that at every collegium he was necessarily present.

9 Q. I apologise, I misunderstood you. Before we go on to this other

10 topic then I'd like to ask you: My question to you before was discipline

11 issues with officers and how Mr. Boskoski would handle those. Did you

12 ever see any other disciplinary issues that were raised by persons and

13 brought to Mr. Boskoski's attention in 2001, besides the incident in

14 Vaksince.

15 A. I can't recall.

16 Q. Can you recall that if complaints about the behaviour of certain

17 police officers were expressed, can you recall how the minister would

18 handle those?

19 A. Except this case with Toni Mandarovski I don't recall any other

20 but you know what is the procedure and it was followed, the disciplinary

21 action.

22 Q. Okay. Well, if we can go back to your statement, would reviewing

23 your statement once again refresh your recollection as to this particular

24 issue?

25 A. I hope so.

Page 5520

1 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could display the statement once again,

2 please. It is the same page, same paragraph.

3 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, you have it in the Macedonian language and the

4 hard copy in front of you. If I could draw your attention to paragraph

5 22. And this is the last sentence of that particular paragraph. It is on

6 page 6 of the statement. Let me just read it. It says: "For example, if

7 the complaints about the behaviour of certain police officers were

8 expressed, the minister took personal care about this, he was ex officio

9 in charge of the police."

10 Do you see this Mr. Trajkovski?

11 A. Yes, of course I see it. The point of this sentence of mine is

12 political responsibility. Political responsibility.

13 Q. I'm sorry, what exactly do you mean by "political responsibility"?

14 A. What happens with the police officers in the Ministry of Interior

15 is a matter of a procedure. For instance, any improper conduct would lead

16 to a procedure, to a disciplinary action.

17 Political responsibility, if I read this now, the moment comes, I

18 remember the protest in Skopje when part of the reserve forces were in

19 front of the parliament of the Republic of Macedonia, and the minister

20 requested that the prime minister in the government resigns because of the

21 events, because of his political responsibility.

22 Q. So you're saying that by this -- you recall making this statement

23 with respect to the minister and him taking personal care about these

24 issues. You recall making that statement?

25 A. I don't recall.

Page 5521

1 Q. But my question to you was, then, and I know you might have

2 answered this but I just seek a clarification.

3 My question was to you then if the minister had complaints about

4 the behaviour of certain police officers, then what you're telling us is

5 that he would follow some sort of procedure with respect to those

6 complaints. Is that what you're telling us?

7 A. Well, yes, as far as I'm able to understand you, yes.

8 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, did Mr. Boskoski at the time when he

9 was minister, ever propose or start a disciplinary action against any

10 police officers?

11 A. I don't recall.

12 Q. As chief of security, do you recall if Mr. Boskoski had a routine

13 weekly schedule?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. By "no," I take it you mean you don't recall?

16 A. Yes, I don't recall.

17 Q. Would looking at your statement again refresh your recollection as

18 to this particular fact?

19 Since you're looking at your statement, I will refer to you

20 paragraph 20, which is on page 5 of the statement. It is page 5 of the

21 English as well as page 5 of the Macedonian.

22 And since you have the hard copy in front of you, Mr. Trajkovski,

23 the bottom part of this particular paragraph starts with the

24 words: "Normally at around 8 to 900 hours we arrived in the office every

25 day of the week. The first thing he was reading his email -- his mail.

Page 5522

1 At the same time he gave the order to the secretary (first name Violeta)

2 of his office to call the police generals. Normally these police

3 commanders were General Jovanovski, the head of the posebna unit; Vasko,

4 last name unknown, the general of the Tigers; Goran Zdravkovski, the

5 commander of the Lions; Goran Stojkov, and it goes on to the next page.

6 Police general Risto Galevski and maybe some other deputies and

7 occasionally the directors of the public security Goran Mitevski, and the

8 UBK Director, Nikola Spasovski. Also some other commanders depending on

9 the current events. These meetings happened normally four to five times

10 per week on regular basis."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes, I see it.

13 Q. And after reviewing that, do you now recall whether Mr. Boskoski

14 had a routine weekly schedule?

15 A. I'm reading the statement and I think that a mistake had been made

16 here, or several mistakes. Namely it is not possible that during that

17 period at the same time both Risto Galevski and Zoran Jovanovski were

18 police generals, since the General Jovanovski was after General Risto

19 Galevski. So in this statement, or this part of the statements, I don't

20 recall precisely, or it might have been translated incorrectly or there is

21 a misunderstanding.

22 And, secondly, since I said once a week was the usual frequency of

23 the collegiums and when I think -- four or five times I think I was

24 referring to the monthly basis and not weekly basis as it is written here

25 at the end of this paragraph.

Page 5523

1 Q. So then are you telling us that he did have a routine per week and

2 that meetings with these particular persons albeit not all of them, maybe,

3 did occur on a weekly basis?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. And just following up on what you had commented on about

6 Commander Mandarovski, you said that at times he was invited to the

7 collegium. The collegium you were referring to that he was invited to,

8 would that have been these meetings, these weekly meetings that the

9 minister had?

10 A. You are drawing me into questions -- you are asking me to answer

11 questions that were outside of my competence. I never now whom he needed

12 to invite to a collegium or whom he needed to meet. My duties were

13 related to the security, safety of the minister of the interior and

14 nothing more than that.

15 I'm telling I recall that several times at a collegium I have seen

16 Toni Mandarovski present, which does not mean that I needed to be at the

17 building of the Ministry of the Interior at all times so that I see who is

18 coming and who is going.

19 Q. Okay, So at times then, if I understand you correctly, at times

20 then Commander Mandarovski would attend these meetings with these other

21 generals and the Minister Boskoski?

22 A. Yes, at times.

23 Q. Do you recall knowing a person in 2001 named Zoran Jovanovski who

24 was also known as Bucuk?

25 A. Yes. I know him since around 1986/1987.

Page 5524

1 Q. And in 2001, do you recall ever seeing the former Minister

2 Boskoski meet with Mr. Jovanovski?

3 A. I don't remember that the minister of the interior met Zoran

4 Jovanovski.

5 Q. Do you recall if they ever had any -- do you recall ever seeing

6 Mr. Boskoski and Mr. Jovanovski at the same restaurants? Might not have

7 been a planned meeting, but do you ever recall seeing that?

8 A. Of course it was not a planned meeting, and of course I remember

9 that there were certain places that we frequented, and Mr. Zoran

10 Jovanovski was there also, not often.

11 Q. In 2001, I know we've spoken about the Tiger unit, but do you

12 recall the formation of a special unit in the MOI, the Ministry of

13 Interior, in 2001?

14 A. Do you mean another special unit?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. In 2001, no.

17 Q. Are you aware of a special unit called the Lions?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you recall a training exercise that took place at a location

20 called Penus?

21 A. Penus, yes.

22 Q. And do you recall when this particular training exercise took

23 place?

24 A. I can't remember precisely. I know that it was very cold. I

25 think it was towards the end of the year, 2001, or at the most, beginning

Page 5525

1 of 2002. But I think it was the end of 2001, somewhere November.

2 Q. Do you remember if the Lions participated in this particular

3 training exercise?

4 A. I can't recall. There were many uniformed police officers. I

5 can't recall. I don't think that they did.

6 Q. Okay. You said that you don't recall. Would looking at your

7 statement refresh your recollection as to this particular issue?

8 A. Yes, I see my statement.

9 Q. And would looking at that refresh your recollection? I'll draw

10 your attention to paragraph 21 of the Macedonian, it is page 6, the

11 English is page 6. In that particular paragraph it says: "In the

12 training area Penus near Stipe mainly used by the police, the minister

13 visited a military presentational exercise of the police. It may be said

14 that also the Rapid Intervention Unit Lions also participated in that

15 exercise. According to my opinion, this was in the summertime before the

16 events of Ljuboten. Being asked, I said that I am very sure about the

17 Lions' participation in the Penus exercise."

18 Do you see that?

19 A. Yes, I see it.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. But this expression "very sure" is not known to me. I never say

22 that I'm very sure. I'm either sure or I'm not sure.

23 Q. And at the time then in 2004 when you made this statement you

24 indicated that you were very sure about the Lions' participation in the

25 Penus exercise. Is that true?

Page 5526

1 A. It is written here that I'm very sure, but I have said I'm not

2 sure.

3 Q. Were you with the Minister Boskoski during the weekend of 10 and

4 12 August 2001?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Where were you at that time?

7 A. In the Republic of Croatia.

8 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, thank you, I have nothing further.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

10 Ms. Residovic.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Trajkovski.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, my name is Edina Residovic, and together with my

16 colleague Guenael Mettraux, I am defending Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

17 Before I proceed with asking you some questions, I would like to

18 ask you to hear out a -- my appeal.

19 I presume that you understand the language in which I'm speaking

20 to you, and I -- I understand the language which you speak. However, my

21 questions and your responses need to be translated so that the Honourable

22 Court and members in the courtroom can understand what I'm asking you and

23 what you're responding to me.

24 Therefore, I would ask you to wait for the question to be

25 interpreted and only then to proceed with your response to the question.

Page 5527

1 Did you understand me?

2 A. Yes, I understood.

3 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Trajkovski, that as of 1992 you are employed in

4 the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Macedonia?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Prior to that, you had finished secondary education, and for a

7 time you worked other jobs, and then as of 1992, you were permanently

8 employed in the Ministry of Interior. Is this correct?

9 A. Yes, this is correct.

10 Q. After being employed in 1992, first, you were inspector in the

11 police station Gostivar, up until July 1997. Is this correct?

12 A. Yes, police officer in the police station Gostivar.

13 Q. After this job in the police station Gostivar you worked in the

14 unit for securing diplomatic and consular offices. Is this correct?

15 A. Yes, this is correct.

16 Q. As of 1999, you worked in the sector for operative surveillance?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. To the question of my learned colleague you said that you were the

19 head of the personal security of Minister Boskoski. Do you recall this?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In this regards, I would ask you to help me clarify one response

22 which was not sufficiently clarified.

23 To the previous question of my learned colleague, you said that

24 you became the head of the security at the time when Ljube Boskoski became

25 minister. Is this correct?

Page 5528

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. To the question of my colleague on page 3, line 16, when she -- it

3 was suggested to you that this was at the beginning of 2002, at the year

4 2000, you responded affirmative, you said yes.

5 My question, it may be a mistake, if I were to say to that you

6 Minister Boskoski became minister in May 2001, would this recall -- would

7 remind you that you became head of his personal security in the May of

8 2001?

9 A. Yes, May 2001.

10 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that after having been appointed head of

11 the personal security of the minister, is it correct that you were

12 directly included in the election of the team of the personal security of

13 the minister?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it correct then when members of the security teams are selected

16 that the head of security conducts consultations with the person that is

17 being secured, that is to say that you had consultations on this matter

18 with Minister Boskoski. Is this correct?

19 A. Yes, of course this is so.

20 Q. Is it correct that Minister Boskoski requested of you only that

21 this team include persons that will carry out their jobs professionally?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you concur with me that the minister was not burdened by the

24 party affiliation of the team members or by other issues other than their

25 professional attitude towards their job?

Page 5529

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. At the time when you became the head of the personal security you

3 were a member of the VMRO party, but most of the persons in your team did

4 not belong to any party. Some of them were even members of the opposition

5 party. Is this correct?

6 A. I would ask you to please repeat your question again.

7 Q. At the time when you became the head of the security of the

8 minister, you were either a member of VMRO or you were a sympathizer of

9 the VRMO. Is this correct?

10 A. Yes, this is correct.

11 Q. However, most of the team members which you selected on a

12 professional basis were not members of the VMRO party, some did not belong

13 to any party while others even belonged or were members of the opposition

14 party, SDS, for example?

15 A. Yes. Part of the security team of the minister came from the

16 security team of the former President Gligorov. I had a colleague who is

17 now working in the team of current President Crvenkovski. Another

18 colleague worked with the previous minister of interior and it was said

19 that he was a member of the SDS, a party which is now in the opposition

20 and was in the opposition at that time as well.

21 Q. Therefore, the minister did not raise any kind of issue of

22 political affiliation of his personal security team at any which time,

23 rather, let you, on professional basis, to make the selection of the team

24 that can respond to the task. Is this correct?

25 A. Yes, this is correct.

Page 5530

1 Q. And you selected the team members of the security team from among

2 a number of candidates, and following the suggestion of the minister to

3 choose and to pick the best professionals. Is this correct?

4 A. Yes, this is correct.

5 Q. To the question of my learned colleague, you said that your

6 security team as well as the other six teams that secured important

7 persons in the Republic of Macedonia were in the sector of the security of

8 the Ministry of Interior and in this regard, in view of the fact that you

9 said formally, I would now ask you a number of questions in this regard.

10 Do you recall having given this response to my learned colleague

11 when asked this question?

12 A. Yes, yes, I do remember saying formally because this is how it

13 was.

14 Q. Was the sector for security in the Ministry of Interior which

15 dealt with securing persons, was this in the -- was this in effect the

16 so-called 6th department?

17 A. Yes, the 6th department.

18 Q. Is it correct that the head of the 6th department was Mr. Zivko

19 Gacovski?

20 A. Yes, yes, Zivko Gacovski.

21 Q. In responding to the question of my learned colleague, you said

22 that the assistant minister dealt mainly with various issues of security,

23 materiel, other resources. Am I correct in understanding this?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So if I were to put it to you my understanding of the role of the

Page 5531

1 assistant minister, regarding -- in regards to your -- to you but also

2 other security teams, it would be in fact a role of the body which decided

3 and dealt with issues of logistics, of security, that is to say, wages,

4 finances, vehicles, equipment, would this understanding be the right

5 understanding of the role of the security, this part of the security?

6 A. For the most part, yes.

7 Q. Tell me, Mr. Trajkovski, is it correct that -- that the other

8 teams of personal security also included, for the most part, members,

9 persons employed in the Ministry of Interior?

10 A. Yes, with exception -- with the exception of the security team of

11 the late President Trajkovski, the team of which also included people from

12 another unit, which is not part of the Ministry of Interior.

13 Q. Thus, the security of the -- of president -- of Trajkovski in

14 addition to teams from the Ministry of Interior included also members of

15 the army of the Republic of Macedonia, the special units Wolves. Is this

16 correct?

17 A. Volci, yes, wolves, yes.

18 Q. I will go back to this question later on. But if I understood you

19 correctly when you responded to the question of my colleague from the

20 Prosecution, you said that you issued orders or tasks to your members of

21 the team. Is this correct?

22 A. Yes, this is correct.

23 Q. And you also said that the tasks of security were determined

24 together with the Minister Boskoski, depending on his daily or other

25 obligations which he had. Is this correct?

Page 5532

1 A. Yes, this is correct.

2 Q. Can I then conclude that your colleagues also the heads of the

3 permanent security of other important persons in the Republic of Macedonia

4 also, in accordance to the duties they carried out, that they also issued

5 orders to the members of the personal security of the person which is

6 being secured. Is this correct?

7 A. Yes, this is correct.

8 Q. Would it be correct if I were to conclude that these important

9 person which is being secured was the real boss, the real head of the

10 security and that person in fact determined which jobs and tasks you

11 should be carrying out. Is this correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In your security team, you already said that Blagoja Jakovoski was

14 part of it. Is this correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you recognised him on one of the video-clip that was shown to

17 you. Is this correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Your deputy of the team of the personal security of the minister

20 was Branko Pejcinovski?

21 A. Yes, Branko Pejcinovski.

22 Q. In addition, the team -- the personal security team of Minister

23 Boskoski also included Laste Mitkovski, Marijan Medarov, and Goran

24 Jakimovski. Is this correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5533

1 Q. Marijan Medarov and Goran Jakimovski were not entered into the

2 transcript.

3 Is it correct that you and other heads of security teams of

4 Minister Boskoski, up until the fall of 2002, when VMRO became the

5 opposition and other parties assumed power in the Republic of Macedonia.

6 You were head of the security team until that time. Is this correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, the time during which you were head of the

9 personal security of Minister Boskoski, would you be able to concur with

10 me that this was a very difficult time for the police?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In particular, 2001 was a very difficult year, because in this

13 period of time there was larger disturbances of the public order and peace

14 and the state was exposed to terrorist attacks of the NLA also. Is this

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you testify to the fact that the police that in addition to

18 regular duties during this period of time, also took part in the fights in

19 crisis areas?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Is this a convenient time then, Ms. Residovic?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Thank you very

23 much.

24 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now until quarter past 4.00,

25 although because of another matter, the Chamber may be a little delayed in

Page 5534

1 returning.

2 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.

4 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry to all, and especially you,

5 Ms. Residovic, that other matter took longer than expected.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, we spoke before the break that that was a

8 difficult year for the police. Do you remember that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that the public law and order were greatly disturbed that

11 year.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the NLA, the terrorist groups, attacked the police stations

14 and patrols.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you became the head of the personal security of the Minister

17 Boskoski, you were aware that the Minister Boskoski, before working in the

18 Ministry of Interior was not a professional police officer. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were also aware that the Minister Boskoski has lived for many

22 years and worked in the Republic of Croatia and he had a completely

23 different occupation.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Actually, most of his career he has spent in the health care. Are

Page 5535

1 you aware of that?

2 A. Yes, I am aware.

3 Q. Since you said that you were close to the Minister Boskoski as

4 head of his personal security, you could observe that the minister is very

5 respectful of his professional line of command. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is correct.

7 Q. He respected the opinions of his generals, and, actually, he never

8 interfered with the line of command, and, as you said, he never issued an

9 order in your presence, an order in the field?

10 A. Yes, precisely.

11 Q. But you also stated that he wanted to have firsthand information

12 and that when he was appointed minister, he wanted to learn what the

13 situation in the Ministry of Interior was, and what were the problems that

14 the police officers in the field encounter. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was that willingness of his and the practice of his to learn

17 about the problems firsthand the reason that you answered the question of

18 my colleague Prosecutor that he did not go only to the crisis regions but

19 he also made rounds of other areas of the Republic of Macedonia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And if I understood you well, you stated that he went there just

22 to get information about the situation and the problems because he

23 believed that the -- it -- the political responsibility and the situation

24 about the ministry was his. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5536

1 Q. And when he would go to these departments or sectors of the

2 Ministry of Interior and the police stations, could you also confirm that

3 never in your presence he issued any order to those officers, heads of the

4 departments or assistants?

5 A. Yes, I already stated this.

6 Q. So he -- the minister never issued an order to the assistants or

7 any other officers in the departments.

8 A. Yes, he never issued orders.

9 Q. My learned colleague asked you about his daily activities, and you

10 explained that the minister would normally have a weekly meeting of the

11 collegium members. Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you were then shown part of your statement that you gave to

14 the Prosecutor's investigator in 2004, the paragraph 20, which enumerated

15 the persons who could possibly be in attendance at the meetings. Do you

16 recall that as well?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you immediately noticed that there was some misunderstanding;

19 you said that it was written here that the General Jovanovski could not

20 have been general at the same time that Risto Galevski was because he

21 became a general and head, under-secretary of the police only after Risto

22 Galevski left that office. Do you remember explaining that immediately?

23 A. Yes, I remember.

24 Q. You also stated that sometimes also Toni Mandarovski came to the

25 collegium meetings. He was, for a certain period of time, commander of

Page 5537

1 the Tigers. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And since you also replied to one of the questions of the

4 Prosecutor, in saying that Toni Mandarovski was suspended from duty

5 because he refused to obey an order by a superior officer, do you remember

6 that Toni Mandarovski came to some of those meetings before he was

7 suspended from duty and that, after that, surely he was not invited and he

8 would not attend. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, precisely.

10 Q. And Goran Zdravkovski was appointed commander of the Tigers in his

11 place. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, correctly.

13 Q. So in paragraph 20, there would be another misunderstanding here,

14 because it would not have been possible for both Toni Mandarovski and

15 Goran Zdravkovski to be in the same collegium in attendance because Goran

16 Zdravkovski only came to this office when Toni Mandarovski was dismissed

17 from this office. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you agree with me that in this paragraph there is nothing about

20 the time in relation to which you mentioned certain individuals?

21 A. Yes, it is correct. I remember only that I answered questions

22 about collegiums and who were the persons who would be present in them

23 most frequently and I just enumerated them without specifying the time.

24 Q. So if I were to tell you also that Nikola Spasovski became

25 director of the UBK only at the beginning of 2002 and that before that,

Page 5538

1 Varucevski [phoen] was the director, then this would again corroborate

2 that there is some confusion in this paragraph, because Nikola Spasovski

3 could not have been in attendance at a collegium before 2002. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, it is correct, it is.

6 Q. You were also asked about the special unit Lions and you stated

7 that you didn't know whether it had been established at all in 2001 or

8 whether it happened towards the end of 2001. So if you mentioned that

9 the Lions commander Goran Stojkov was in attendance at these meetings,

10 that could only held through about the time after the establishment of the

11 Lions, so towards the end of 2001 or in 2002. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In relation to this, I would like to ask to you clarify one more

14 thing. My learned colleague asked you about the participation in a

15 drill. It is in page 27 [as interpreted], paragraph 2, a participation in

16 an activity that took place at Penus. Do you remember that?

17 A. Could you please repeat what page it was.

18 Q. Page 25, line 17, and my learned friend the Prosecutor asked you

19 during this evidence of yours whether you were aware about the activity at

20 Penus. Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes, I remember that activity.

22 Q. And you immediately responded in saying that that was when it was

23 very cold towards the end of 2001 or at the beginning of 2002, and you

24 stated it could have been November. Do you remember giving this reply?

25 A. Yes, I remember. This is what I said.

Page 5539

1 Q. After that, my learned friend showed you again your statement,

2 that is paragraph 21, which speaks about the military presentational

3 exercise of the police at Penus. Do you remember that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you were shown that you had stated then that you were certain,

6 sure, that the exercise took place at Penus, but in that statement you had

7 stated that this was during the summer.

8 I will ask you now to look together -- to see a video-clip that is

9 P277.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We can stop here.

12 Q. Do you recognise this area around Penus, the area you see in this

13 video-clip?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you saw that it was quite cold, based on what the persons are

16 wearing, because you can't see anything else. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, correct.

18 Q. When you saw this video-clip, Mr. Trajkovski, could you now say

19 with certainty that it was really towards the end of 2001 or, as you

20 stated, most probably in November?

21 A. I am certain that it was towards the end of 2001, in November.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 My learned colleague also asked you whether it was correct that

24 the Minister Boskoski was close with his police officers and that he

25 respected or appreciated their problems, something in that sense. Do you

Page 5540

1 remember? I don't -- I can't quote precisely but that was the direction

2 of the questions of my learned colleague. Do you remember that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it correct that the Minister Boskoski really took interest in

5 the problems in the Ministry of Interior and the deficiencies of the

6 ministry which prevented the police as a whole to perform its duties with

7 responsibility. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is correct.

9 Q. Is it correct that during the time when Minister Boskoski became

10 the minister of the interior, there were very many problems in the

11 ministry that piled up for years and the minister attempted to resolve

12 them, regardless of the fact that it was a crisis period. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, it is correct.

15 Q. And is it correct that in the meetings where he would visit the

16 departments and the sectors of the Ministry of the Interior, he always

17 asked that the problems are discussed only so that he, in his capacity of

18 a minister, could undertake some activities, measures within the

19 government or within the parliament to improve the situation of the

20 police?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Considering that this was a time of crisis where the police

23 officers were under great risks, also their life was under risk, could you

24 say that the minister was a person who took humane care about the safety

25 and the life of the police officers but, at the same time, he told them

Page 5541

1 that they needed to act in accordance with the dignity of a police

2 officer?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Answering the questions of my learned colleague the Prosecutor you

5 stated that he went to the crisis regions. If I say to that you the

6 minister going to the areas where the police officers were exposed to the

7 greatest risk wanted to give them morale support in the performance of

8 such difficult tasks, then this would be the real reason why he went often

9 to the areas where the police officers participated in the fights?

10 A. Yes, I agree that this is so.

11 Q. Because of his great care about the safety of the police officers,

12 he was perceived as an unusual minister, because he sympathized with the

13 problems of people more than the other ministers used to do. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Also, he was known as someone who would meet people in the street

17 and talk to them, and he never refused to have a word with people about

18 their everyday life and problems. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is correct. And I would also add that if wealth would be

20 measured by the number of friends, then certainly he is the richest

21 person.

22 Q. But this closeness to people, regardless of where he would meet

23 them, for you as his security, created new additional and big problems,

24 because there were not many of you in his security. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5542

1 Q. And particularly since unknown persons or strangers would come to

2 him at the street, in a restaurant and he would shake hands with them

3 regardless of the fact that he was not acquainted with them and that he

4 had never met them before. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, most often it was like that.

6 Q. And you as his body-guards needed often to be barrier between him

7 and the people who wanted to shake hands with them. Is that correct?

8 A. Could you please repeat the question.

9 Q. Did it happen sometimes that in public spaces, in a restaurant or

10 in a street, you need to try to use your bodies as a shield, to prevent

11 the people from coming to the minister and shaking hands with him?

12 A. Yes, it is correct.

13 Q. If I say that the minister, apart from this closeness that he felt

14 with the common people, was also a very sensitive person and he found very

15 difficult to cope with every injury or killing of a subordinate person or

16 just any person, you as his close associate can confirm that it was like

17 this.

18 A. Yes, it is correct.

19 Q. He would go and visit the wounded police officers in the hospital

20 or at their homes, and he sent the -- the families of the killed police

21 officers to his house in Istria, Croatia, so that they recover from the

22 trauma they experienced with the loss of a family member and he did he it

23 at his own expense. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But you stated you never heard him issuing any order that

Page 5543

1 treatment of his towards the ordinary police officers or towards the

2 common people was not leading to him issuing orders to his subordinate

3 officers or to the other employees, but he instead respected their rights

4 and responsibilities at the places that -- where he visited?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. My learned colleague also asked you whether, in those encounters

7 of Minister Boskoski with Zoran Jovanovski -- that is page 25, line 17,

8 the of Prosecutor asked: "In 2001, did you see the Minister Boskoski

9 meeting with Zoran Jovanovski?" You stated: "I don't remember that the

10 minister met with Zoran Jovanovski."

11 Then you were asked the following question: "Do you recall whether

12 you ever saw them in the same restaurants, maybe that was not a planned

13 meeting. Do you recall having seen that?"

14 And you answered: "Of course that was not a planned meeting and

15 of course that I remember that there were some places that we frequented

16 and Zoran Jovanovski was there, not often."

17 With regards to this exchange with my colleague the Prosecutor I'm

18 asking you whether Minister Boskoski knew whether he was acquainted with

19 Zoran Jovanovski with a nickname Bucuk. Are you aware of this at all?

20 A. I can state that he does not know him.

21 Q. When you said that of course there were restaurants that you

22 frequented and that Zoran Jovanovski would happen to be there, is it

23 correct that Zoran Jovanovski, although he was at the same restaurant, he

24 never sat with the Minister Boskoski or never talked to him?

25 A. He never sat with him and he never talked with him, with the

Page 5544

1 minister.

2 Q. You stated that as early as from 1986 you were acquainted with

3 Zoran Jovanovski. Does that mean that you could have seen Zoran

4 Jovanovski in that restaurant and note that he was seen or that the

5 Minister Boskoski sat with him in a formal or an informal meeting?

6 A. Of course one of my duties was to see the places that were visited

7 and try to see who is there.

8 Is something wrong with the interpretation? I'm hearing

9 something.

10 Q. No, I think we've heard your answer. Thank you.

11 I wanted to clarify this question in view of the fact that after

12 the exchange of the questions and answers, it remained unclear; you can

13 state with certainty that you know Zoran Jovanovski, but that in your deep

14 understanding of that time, the minister had never been with Zoran

15 Jovanovski nor are you aware of the fact that he knows Zoran Jovanovski.

16 Is this what you wish to say?

17 A. I would ask you to repeat the question because there was an

18 inadequate translation or something else. Therefore, I would ask to you

19 repeat the question.

20 Q. After the response which you gave me at the moment, my question

21 is: Have I understood correctly if I were to say that you knew Zoran

22 Jovanovski, that you sometimes saw him in public restaurants where the

23 minister was also present, where Minister Boskoski was also present, but

24 that you do not know that Minister Boskoski knows Zoran Jovanovski nor

25 have you at any given time seen him in the company of Zoran Jovanovski.

Page 5545

1 Have I then understood correctly your testimony?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you very much. My learned colleague also asked you about

4 certain objections which -- which the minister had heard in visits in

5 various areas about the demeanour of his police officers and the manners

6 in which -- the reactions of the minister at that time. You listed a

7 concrete example of Toni Mandarovski, who was suspended, after which a

8 regular disciplinary procedure was led against Toni Mandarovski. Is this

9 correct?

10 After this, the Prosecutor asked you when the minister would hear

11 of such objections, complaints, would he then send or follow a certain

12 kind of procedure, disciplinary procedure? Your response was the

13 following: "[Previous translation continues] ... [In English] Well, yes,

14 as far as I'm able to understand you, yes."

15 [Interpretation] This would be the part of the statement.

16 Do you recall having said this?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I would now ask you to clarify this part of your response. In

19 fact, you said, if I understood well your question, I'm now interested if,

20 in the case of certain complaints about the demeanour of certain police

21 officers, is this what you have said about certain procedures having been

22 followed in the way, in the sense that you understood them? Would this

23 mean that the minister respected the written procedure for establishing

24 disciplinary responsibility?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5546

1 Q. This could not be understood in the context that the minister took

2 part himself or looked into the procedure and how it was led, but that,

3 rather, this was done by the responsible bodies in the ministry?

4 A. Yes, this was done by the responsible bodies in the ministry.

5 Q. In regards to the disciplinary procedure, which my colleague from

6 the Prosecution asked you about, do you know whether some police officers

7 or policemen were punished, disciplinary punished and you responded that

8 you did not know this, or that you do not recall of this.

9 My question is: Is it correct that the ministry has information,

10 reports, which show the number of disciplinary procedures each year or

11 infringements of professional standards and how they were finalised, how

12 they were closed. Is this correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Therefore, if the aim is to establish whether certain policemen

15 and the manner in which the procedure was led in the disciplinary

16 procedure and how they were punished, that this would be found in the

17 information about the application of professional standards and

18 disciplinary procedures. Is this correct?

19 A. Yes, this is -- this can certainly be found there.

20 Q. Thank you. Let us go back a little bit again to the -- the way

21 the team security -- the security teams of important persons in Macedonia

22 operated.

23 You already mentioned that they were formally part of the Ministry

24 of Interior with the exception of the part of the security team of the

25 president of the Republic, and you explained how you selected the security

Page 5547

1 team of Minister Boskoski.

2 Is it correct that the security -- that the prime minister also

3 had security as well as the president of the assembly, the minister of

4 defence and some other important persons. Is this correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it correct that all of these security teams acted independently

7 of the Ministry of Interior and they planned their activities and they

8 carried them out on the basis of the order or on the basis of the

9 consultations with the person that was being secured or looked after?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That is to say, they worked in the same way as you did in

12 consultation with the Minister Boskoski's in carrying out the duties in

13 protecting an individual.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Neither you nor your colleagues from other security did not, about

16 these matters of security, consult Zivko Gacovski, the assistant minister

17 for security nor did you submit any kind of reports to him. Is this

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, this is correct.

20 Q. Would it be accurate if I were to conclude that the true control

21 over the security was the person that was being protected, that is to say,

22 the important person, be this the president, the prime minister or the

23 minister. Is this correct?

24 A. Without exception, this is so.

25 Q. Is it correct that only your security, the personal security of

Page 5548

1 the minister, was accommodated in the building of the Ministry of

2 Interior?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The security of the president of the Republic was located in the

5 building of the parliament.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The security of the prime minister was located in -- in the

8 building -- government building. Is this correct?

9 A. Yes, this is correct.

10 Q. The security of the president of the assembly was in the building

11 of the assembly. Is this correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Other ministries -- as for other ministries, in the buildings

14 where these ministries were located. Is this correct?

15 A. In the buildings of the respective ministries.

16 Q. Then you could concur with me if I were to say that your

17 colleagues, the heads of the securities of other important persons, were

18 in practice -- acted in practice independently from the Ministry of

19 Interior. Is this correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You never saw nor heard Minister Boskoski giving any kind of order

22 to another head of security or to a body-guard of another person with the

23 exception of you, as his own security.

24 A. Only to me and our own security team.

25 Q. Is it correct that you never saw the minister in the company of

Page 5549

1 any other members of the security of any other person which was protected

2 in accordance with the regulations?

3 A. I have never seen him.

4 Q. It could happen that perhaps on a meeting a number of such persons

5 were present and together with them, a large number of the security, that

6 the minister just as everybody else could -- could extend his greetings to

7 you as members of the security, just as the president and the prime

8 minister?

9 A. Yes. During such meetings when there were Security Council

10 meetings or meetings in the assembly.

11 Q. Although you were close to Minister Boskoski, you never saw

12 Minister Boskoski with Johan Tarculovski, in the company of Johan

13 Tarculovski, is this correct?

14 A. No, I never did see him in the company of Mr. Johan Tarculovski.

15 Q. You did not see Johan Tarculovski at any given time enter the

16 cabinet of the minister or the director of public security?

17 A. I have never seen him in these two offices. In the ministry, I

18 don't know. Perhaps.

19 Q. You personally know -- knew Johan Tarculovski as a person, a

20 member of the personal security team of the president of the Republic, or

21 rather, the wife of the president of the Republic. Is this correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You knew that the head of the security of the president of the

24 Republic at that time was Zlatko Kesovski. Is this correct?

25 A. Zlatko Kesovski.

Page 5550

1 Q. Therefore you had direct cooperation and communication with Zlatko

2 Kesovski, is this correct?

3 A. Well, yes.

4 Q. And this happened at times when the president would ask for the

5 minister or when the minister had to call in to the president. Is this

6 correct?

7 A. Well, yes. Our practice was that the -- one of the person who

8 took care of his security had the mobile phone, had his mobile phone so

9 when the president or the prime minister called, the minister would speak

10 with these persons. Oftentimes, Kesovski Zlatko, yes, requested the

11 minister when the president had done so.

12 Q. That would in fact be my next question to you. It was the usual

13 practice that the minister, or the president, or the prime minister, not

14 have their mobile phones on their persons but that they be with their

15 security, and through the security the other security will be contacted or

16 directly the president or the minister. Is this correct?

17 A. Yes, this is correct.

18 Q. And as far as you know, this was not only the practice in the case

19 of Minister Boskoski but this was practice, the practice also among other

20 important persons which were protected.

21 A. Yes. This is how it worked most of the time with most persons.

22 Q. Although you said that for the most part the minister gave the

23 orders or you had consultations with him about the jobs which you were to

24 carry out, did it ever happen that the person who was being protected

25 sometimes asked of his body-guards to do something without having

Page 5551

1 consulted you on it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was it a rule in your security at that time that if a body-guard

4 received such an order from the minister, that this order is carried out

5 but that you are informed about the job which he has conducted at the

6 personal order of the minister?

7 A. Yes, certainly.

8 Q. In view of your communication with the colleagues from other

9 security teams, did you know that the president of the Republic often

10 issued direct orders to the body-guards sometimes contrary to those which

11 they received from the head of security?

12 A. Yes, yes, very often.

13 Q. And you are aware that the president of the Republic often issued

14 certain orders to the ministries also, not only to his security?

15 A. Yes, this is so.

16 Q. Is it correct that the security of the president included persons

17 who he personally requested to be in his security team which was somewhat

18 unusual for the way -- in terms of the way you selected your team of

19 security?

20 A. Yes, it was unusual. He -- in one period of time he requested

21 that his team be increased with people from the Ministry of the Defence

22 and one of his close relatives from his immediate family.

23 Q. This is exactly what I wanted to say. Is it true that on the

24 basis of his personal order most of the members of -- from the army joined

25 the security team of the president of the Republic?

Page 5552

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you agree with me that in this time it was well known that

3 President Trajkovski, because of an assassination attempt while he was in

4 parliament that he had substantial fear, that he was afraid that he would

5 be killed and that he always requested an increase in his security and he

6 requested people which had his confidence?

7 A. Yes, he felt insecure and he was constantly requesting an increase

8 in his security.

9 Q. Very important persons, especially the president of the Republic

10 had the right to protection of members of their families. Is this

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it correct that Minister Boskoski did not have special

14 protection for his family because you were small in number but nonetheless

15 you managed to secure in general his house in Skopje?

16 A. Yes, with the exception of a small period of time when his family

17 was in Croatia, then we had certain information that his family was in

18 danger that in certain restaurants and pastry shops people were meeting

19 who wanted to cause harm to his family and this information came to the

20 Ministry of Interior in Skopje, and as far as can I recall, the colleague

21 with whom I communicated with and later on saw him, this was in August

22 2001, Zoran was his name, Adriancic, I think was his last name.

23 Q. Therefore, there was a real reason due to which you, at the end of

24 July, or I don't know the precise date, went to the Republic of Croatia

25 and stayed there about 20 days so as -- to agree with your colleagues from

Page 5553

1 the security, from Croatia to agree upon the manner of-- on which -- of

2 how the ministers' wives would be protected?

3 A. Because our competencies ended with the borders of the Republic of

4 Macedonia. We met with persons from the Ministry of Interior of Croatia

5 and we agreed that the security or, rather, to place security over the

6 family of and the premises where the family of Ljube Boskoski lived and

7 this is how it happened. 24-hour watch, security, from our Croatian

8 colleagues. I think three to four each day, per day.

9 Q. Just as you acted in this position, so the president of the

10 Republic had the right to have regular protection of his wife and family.

11 Is this correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia and a police officer,

14 you were aware that the president of the Republic, in accordance the

15 constitution was the commander in chief, and that during the time of the

16 crisis he often issues orders. Are aware of this?

17 A. Yes, this is so.

18 Q. My learned colleague asked you about going visits to such places

19 of crisis. First I would ask you something directly in correlation with

20 your tasks and duties.

21 We saw on the video-clip that was shown to you that the minister

22 was in military uniform and that most persons wore protective equipment.

23 When you went to the areas where you knew -- where you knew there were

24 fighting in the vicinity, did you place special requests before the

25 minister so as to ensure his security?

Page 5554

1 A. Yes, of course. We asked that he carry and wear protective

2 equipment, which -- which includes bullet-proof vests and uniform,

3 camouflage uniform, boots and so forth.

4 Q. This request, as head of security, was linked with his personal

5 security, not about his place and role in the area where he was going. Is

6 this correct?

7 A. Yes, this is correct.

8 Q. When you went to these areas, which was individually listed to you

9 by my colleague, Ratae, Vaksince, Tetovo, Matejce and so forth, when you

10 went to these areas where the joint operations were carried out of the

11 army and the police. Is this correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you at that time hear the president of the Republic clearly

14 say in public his position about the crisis in the Republic of Macedonia

15 and that he deems the NLA as a terrorist group?

16 A. Yes. He always considered NLA as a terrorist group.

17 Q. Could you hear that he often qualified the activities of the NLA

18 as criminal and illegal activities?

19 A. Yes. He emphasised this, and -- whereby he always said that the

20 damage is equally distributed among the Macedonians and the Albanians who

21 live in the Republic of Macedonia.

22 Q. During these public addresses is it true that he said that these

23 terrorist groups should be expelled from the territory of the Republic of

24 Macedonia and that peace for all citizens of the Republic of Macedonia,

25 Albanians and Macedonians, should be returned?

Page 5555

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In view of your position as head of security, you probably did not

3 have insight into his written orders but what you're testifying now is

4 what you could have heard, either directly from the president, or from his

5 public addresses. Is -- is my understanding of this correct?

6 A. Yes, this is correct.

7 Q. When you stated a while ago that the president often issued orders

8 so often to the minister, has it happened that you were present somewhere

9 in a car, in the house, or elsewhere, and were able to hear the president

10 issuing a direct order to the minister of the interior?

11 A. Yes, it happened quite often. During the crisis period I remember

12 that usually minister, not often, made comments when he entered the car

13 that he had received an order that maybe he disagreed with, but I didn't

14 want to go into this and I think that one of such orders was when the

15 Lions needed to secure the exhumation of the Macedonians who disappeared

16 in the conflict of 2001. That was at Neprosteno locality where the

17 exhumation needed to take place and during this action, as far as I

18 remember, that was the first action where the Lions were involved and

19 during that action three police officers were killed at Trebos and then

20 the minister said when he entered the car that he had received an order

21 from the president to secure the space, the area in and around Neprosteno

22 and the road to Neprosteno in order to perform the exhumation of the

23 bodies.

24 Q. Since you have already mentioned that exhumation at Neprosteno,

25 could I then refresh your memory that was in the second or towards

Page 5556

1 mid-November 2001 and is it correct that that was the first action where

2 the Lions participated and where they had significant losses?

3 A. Yes, it is correct. It was winter, there was snow. I think it

4 was somewhere towards the middle or the end of November, don't take my

5 word for it, and three police officers of the Ministry of Interior were

6 killed, members of the Rapid Intervention Unit, Lions.

7 Q. And you had just stated that exhumation was ordered by the

8 president of the Republic directly. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes. I haven't seen that decision but immediately after the

10 meeting of the minister of the interior, Mr. Ljube Boskoski, and the late

11 president Boris Trajkovski, when the minister entered the car he stated

12 that he needed to send the units immediately to the Tetovo area, to

13 Neprosteno, in order to secure the exhumation. That was an order coming

14 from the President Trajkovski.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would this be the

16 time for the break or should we continue, since we started a bit later.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Shall we continue for somewhere between five and

18 ten minutes, as is convenient.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 Q. Once we started speaking about the orders of the president, you,

21 when asked by my learned colleague, you were explaining the political

22 responsibility and indicated that the minister, after the events in Skopje

23 on the 25th of June, offered his resignation to the president of the

24 government. Do you remember that?

25 A. Yes, I remember.

Page 5557

1 Q. Is it correct that after these events of 25th of June, 2001, where

2 several thousands of citizens participated, part of the reserve forces of

3 the police and of the army, the minister made the decision to disband the

4 reserve forces. Do you remember that?

5 A. Yes, I remember. It was the same decision -- that same decision,

6 as far as I remember, was revoked by the president.

7 Q. You answered the question that I haven't asked you, so that

8 decision of the minister about the disbandment was annulled by the

9 president. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes. I just don't recall whether it was done on the same day or

11 the next day.

12 Q. With regards to this situation, the exhumation in Neprosteno that

13 you spoke about towards the middle or the end of November 2001, is it

14 correct that there was enormous pressure on the president of the Republic

15 by the families of the disappeared persons and also politicians from the

16 local communities?

17 A. Yes. The opposition parties and the families of the persons who

18 have disappeared, there were also threats of hunger strike and other

19 things. There was a lot of pressure on the president.

20 Q. And was the president known to say that he made many decisions

21 under the pressure of the victims and the politicians maybe from Tetovo or

22 some of the other local communities?

23 A. Probably, yes.

24 Q. But regardless of the way in which the president made the

25 decision, was your understanding that the minister had the duty to enforce

Page 5558

1 the order and then others needed to enforce the orders of the president?

2 A. Yes. The president emphasised this often that he was the

3 commander in chief and that his were the last words.

4 Q. And as you stated a while ago, when they went to the exhumation at

5 Neprosteno, at Trebos there was an ambush by the terrorist groups and

6 three police officers were killed. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, let's go back to the questions asked by my learned

9 colleague the Prosecutor and that are related to Ljuboten.

10 You said that you were outside of Macedonia on the 12th of August,

11 2001. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, it is correct.

13 Q. Tell me, please, in general, whether you were in communication

14 with your deputy who remained in Macedonia during that time?

15 A. Yes, we spoke on the phone. Yes.

16 Q. And we said the name of your deputy or substitute but could you

17 repeat what was the name?

18 A. Yes, that was my colleague Branko Pejcinovski.

19 Q. On that date, or the next day, the 12th or 13th of August, 2001,

20 did you speak on the phone with Branko Pejcinovski and did you receive any

21 information from him?

22 A. Yes. He told me that he and the minister went to the barbers.

23 The president called on the phone, actually first his head of security

24 requested to speak with the minister and that he sent them to certain area

25 to go and see what was happening there. I think that my colleague phoned

Page 5559

1 me before they left Ljuboten and he told me then that they went to an

2 unknown area. They were taken there by a police officer from the Mirkovci

3 police station where they had the first meeting. He was an ethnic

4 Albanian. I think that was some head of a sector or a person in charge of

5 admission of persons at that police station. So a commanding officer.

6 They went to the scene. I don't think how long they remained

7 there and he just said that was when they were returning that they went

8 with a passenger car wearing shirts, suits so they were inadequately

9 protected.

10 Q. So from the conversation with your deputy, you could understand

11 that when he received the order from the president, the minister actually

12 didn't know what was taking place at that area, where he needed to go. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. Well, yes. We saw in the video-clip when we had information that

15 there was exchange of fire somewhere, we requested the minister to wear

16 appropriate clothes, so the very fact that the minister went there wearing

17 a suit and the security wearing casual clothes without protective clothes,

18 without arms, just their personal armament and not formation armament in a

19 passenger car and not with a bullet-proof car, this is self-evident.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just a few

21 more question on another topic with the witness, so maybe this would be

22 the convenient time to break, and then I will finish within the next ten

23 minutes.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will resume at ten past.

25 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

Page 5560

1 --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

4 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, you stated a while ago that the Minister Boskoski

5 is a very rich man because he has many friends. Do you remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you agree with me that Minister Boskoski has many friends,

8 among them ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Albanians in the Republic of

9 Macedonia?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The Minister Boskoski was born in a village where the Albanians

12 and the Macedonians used to live together and they still live together.

13 Are you aware of this?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know that he grew up with the Albanians?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As the head of his personal security, you know that during the

18 crisis he was in constant communication with the Albanian population. Are

19 you aware of this?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During the crisis, he also went to the Albanian villages, he went

22 into their homes and he spoke to them. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is correct.

24 Q. Throughout the crisis and after that, until the elections, his

25 deputy in the Ministry of Interior was an ethnic Albanian, Refet Almazi.

Page 5561

1 Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you, as a close associate of the Minister Boskoski are aware

4 that Minister Boskoski was not only a friend in terms of working relations

5 with Mr. Elmazi but also before the crisis, throughout the crisis and

6 after the crisis they had also personal friendship?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also know that, together with Mr. Elmazi, Minister Boskoski

9 worked intensively on the recruitment of Albanians for the police.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you became head of the personal security of the minister, you

12 probably heard that Minister Boskoski and Refet Elmazi tried to introduce

13 mixed police stations even before he became a minister.

14 A. Yes, when he was a state secretary. An example of this could be

15 the police station at Brest or Gosince. Then the minister went -- he was

16 a state secretary then together with the deputy minister Refet Elmazi to

17 launch, to open the police station and to distribute humanitarian

18 assistance.

19 Q. Since you mentioned Brest, I will remind you that this could have

20 been towards the middle of March 2001, and, as you just stated, the deputy

21 minister Refet Elmazi and Mr. Boskoski went up there to establish the

22 mixed police station. So the police station where Macedonians and

23 Albanians would work on an equal footing. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At the same time, they brought significant humanitarian assistance

Page 5562

1 for the Albanian villages that were cut off for a long time.

2 A. Yes, it is correct.

3 Q. Do you also know that the terrorist groups of the NLA then

4 attacked both deputy minister Elmazi and the Minister Boskoski?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. A police officer was killed in that event and the introduction of

7 rights for the Albanian population was prevented. Is that correct?

8 A. It is correct.

9 Q. You learned the information about this event mainly from the

10 minister because he often would say that the Albanian terrorists are

11 working against their own people, quoting the example of Brest precisely.

12 Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you know that the minister spoke fiercely against the

15 terrorist groups and the gangs but he always made an absolute distinction

16 between those terrorists and the Albanian population. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. He always -- often said in the public but I would say also in

19 personal communications and if that is correct please confirm this.

20 A. Yes, it is correct.

21 Q. Excuse me, what did I say?

22 He spoke about that in the public; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. He spoke publicly that the Albanians in Macedonia were under the

25 pressure of the terrorists, as the Macedonians were. Is that correct?

Page 5563

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tell me, are you aware that in August 2001 or towards the end of

3 August 2001, the terrorists attacked the restaurant Brioni not far from

4 the native village of Minister Boskoski, Celopek, where two of his

5 neighbours were killed?

6 A. Yes, it is correct.

7 Q. Did you go and visit Celopek then with the Minister Boskoski?

8 A. Yes, we visited Celopek. We had problems during our visit, not in

9 the sense that somebody tried to stone us or -- or spoke insults against

10 the minister and the vehicles that went in his company, but we had

11 problems in the sense that many people wanted to greet him, shake hands of

12 him so we needed to go out of the protocol to go back. We visited some

13 fields owned by the minister. He spoke to the local population. It was

14 just Albanians then and the group that escorted the minister, the

15 body-guards and then we continued our trip to Celopek.

16 Q. At the moment that we spoke with the Albanians do you remember

17 that he said then that the Macedonians should not respond to such

18 terrorist attacks through retaliation against the Albanian population and

19 he said that the Albanians must -- that the Macedonians must do everything

20 to maintain their good neighbourly relations with their Albanian

21 neighbours. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is correct.

23 Q. But he then also said, as he always has stated, that there must be

24 an energetic response in doing away with the terrorist groups that

25 terrorise both the Macedonian and the Albanian population?

Page 5564

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As you stated, he also met with the Albanians in the village but

3 that was not the only encounter with the Albanians. The minister

4 frequently went to other areas and he would meet with the Albanian

5 population. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, it is correct. Let's take the example of the fact that

7 throughout the conflict the house in Celopek where the Albanian population

8 are a majority, the house of the minister, of his parents was not

9 attacked, throughout the war, throughout the military conflict.

10 Q. Thank you. And now, Mr. Trajkovski, if I say to you that the

11 Minister Boskoski expressed his attitude towards the Albanian population

12 very frequently in the following way and I will now present the position

13 how would the minister express this position of his, so he would

14 say: "Nobody should ask me to change my upbringing that I received at my

15 home to have love for all people regardless of their ethnic, national or

16 religious background and I really love them, especially those who love

17 Macedonia or at least respect Macedonia and the Macedonians.

18 "I grew up together with the Albanians. With them in my native

19 Celopek, I have spent the best years of my boyhood and adulthood. We had

20 very simple -- we simply had friendship and we played together. We

21 sometimes fought, of course, in the way kids do, and sometimes there would

22 be fights at the meadow in -- instead of fighting, we would be wrestling

23 and I was known to win, but there were many times that I was won over. I

24 was always well perceived and well received at the homes of the Albanians

25 and they were at our homes and at the homes of other Macedonians."

Page 5565

1 Would this that I read now be the way in which Ljube Boskoski

2 responding to frequent questions in the public would speak about his

3 attitude towards the Albanians in Macedonia?

4 A. Yes, I fully agree with what you stated.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the transcript,

6 I quoted from the book, My Fight for Macedonia. That is Exhibit P -- I

7 don't see the number now precisely, but I will state the number later.

8 That is Prosecutor's Exhibit's P something, but I don't know the number at

9 the moment and I apologise for not having it prepared in advance.

10 Q. The quote I just read is what you have heard personally from the

11 minister on many occasions in 2001?

12 A. Yes, we have heard it and we felt it.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the book My Fight

14 For Macedonia is P402.

15 Q. Is it correct that the minister received letters from Macedonians

16 but also from the Albanians?

17 A. Yes, it is correct.

18 Q. Is it correct that he once received a letter from a young Albanian

19 girl who wrote to him because she wanted to fight alongside the Macedonian

20 police officers and defend Macedonia because her parents were born in

21 Macedonia and she herself was born in Macedonia. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes, I remember this.

23 Q. Do you remember that Minister Boskoski held on to this letter with

24 great pride for a long time, the letter of this young Albanian?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5566

1 Q. Allow me just the following question.

2 After the elections in 2002, the new power were -- was established

3 at the end of 2002. Is this correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it correct that then the minister told you that -- that the

6 Bucoski government, the government of Bucoski, that the -- that --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, is it true that the

8 minister then told you that Vlado Bucoski.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. -- former minister of the defence of the Republic of Macedonia

11 gave him a document of the army of the Republic of Macedonia from which it

12 derived that the order for the entry of the forces in Ljuboten was issued

13 by President Trajkovski.

14 Did you have such a conversation with the minister.

15 A. Yes, I remember this conversation, just as you said. It is

16 correct. I verify this.

17 Q. Is it correct that this report he gave to Goran Mitevski who then

18 gave it to the new Minister of the Interior Hari Kostov?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Although you only heard this from the minister, is it your deep

21 conviction that this is correct in view of the fact that for two years you

22 knew the way in which the president of the Republic issued orders and how

23 he sometimes -- he himself asked of -- that something be done

24 notwithstanding his ministers?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5567

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished with

2 my questioning.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

5 Mr. Tarculovski -- Mr. Apostolski.

6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

7 Acting according to the guidelines of the Chamber, the Defence, together

8 with that of Ljube Boskoski, we have coordinated our position on this

9 witness. Therefore, I will not be asking this witness any additional

10 questions and I stand in support of the questioning carried out by my

11 colleague Edina Residovic.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.

13 Ms. Motoike.

14 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Re-examination by Ms. Motoike:

16 Q. Mr. Trajkovski, today on page 34 of the transcript you had said

17 that the important person which is being secured determines the jobs and

18 tasks you should be carrying out. Were these the jobs and tasks that were

19 related to the important person's security?

20 A. Not often.

21 Q. What I'm asking you, I guess, is: These tasks and jobs that you

22 were given from the protected person, what did they entail?

23 A. Could you please repeat the question or rephrase the question? I

24 do not understand you.

25 Q. Well, I'm a little confused; I apologise. You were given tasks

Page 5568

1 and jobs from the protected person. I'm just wondering on a daily basis

2 what those tasks or jobs might have been.

3 A. According to me, an order is when the minister of interior calls

4 and tells me that we have to be at his place at 9.00. An order is when he

5 tells his secretary at 9.00 or 10.00 the security should be at his place.

6 An order is when he tells his secretary to call persons to a collegium,

7 regardless whether it be general this or director that or so forth.

8 Q. So the orders that you received from Minister Boskoski at that

9 time whether related to you carrying out the duties with respect to his

10 security.

11 A. This is what I said. Most frequently, yes.

12 Q. On page 40 of today's transcript you were also asked about the

13 collegiums that we went over in your statement. Can I ask you, did the

14 collegiums occur to your recollection in 2001?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. On page 45 of today's transcript you also indicated that

17 you never heard Mr. Boskoski, as a minister, issuing orders. And I

18 believe you also referenced this on page 16 and you stated that

19 Mr. Boskoski did not issue orders in your presence when you both visited

20 the units in the field.

21 As the minister of the interior, though, he did issue orders. Is

22 that true?

23 A. This is not true.

24 Q. Okay. Well, just a second ago you told me that he would -- and

25 you gave examples of orders by the Ministry of Interior that he would

Page 5569

1 order -- order you to be at his place at 9.00 or he would order his

2 secretary to have the security ordered to be at his place. So I'm asking

3 you, as a minister of the interior, did Mr. Boskoski issue orders?

4 A. If you mean about this which you are just saying, then the answer

5 is yes.

6 Q. Okay. You were asked -- you were actually asked about an incident

7 at Neprosteno in the Tetovo area about exhumations there and this is on

8 page 58 of today's transcript. You testified that in response to the

9 president's orders, Mr. Boskoski then ordered units to go to the Tetovo

10 area. Do you recall that?

11 A. I do not recall.

12 Q. Okay. When you -- you testified about the conversation that

13 Minister Boskoski related to you about an order that he received from the

14 president regarding the exhumations in Neprosteno. Do you recall that?

15 A. Yes. He did not tell this to me. He just made comments on it I

16 presume with someone either on the phone or something. I cannot recall

17 precisely, but I understood when he was entering into the vehicle that he

18 was commenting an order given by the president.

19 Q. And you indicated on page 59, actually, of today's transcript that

20 when the minister entered the car, he stated that he had needed to send

21 the units immediately to the Tetovo area. Is that true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. With respect to the reports that were filed by persons in the

24 security sector, you stated on page 50 of today's transcript that you did

25 not -- actually, you and persons in the security sector, did not submit

Page 5570

1 reports to the assistant minister. Is that correct?

2 A. Perhaps once maybe, when the vehicle was attacked and the vehicle

3 of the minister was damaged in front of the parliament of the Republic of

4 Macedonia.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. Because we believed that this is part of his work and that he has

7 to be informed of this.

8 Q. And you mean "part of his," meaning the assistant minister?

9 A. Assistant minister.

10 Q. Yes, thank you. That is what I asked.

11 So if something happened during your duty which would cause you to

12 file a report - I know you're telling us you only filed one before - but

13 if something happened which would cause you to file a report, that report

14 would then be submitted to the protected person, that is the person you

15 were protecting?

16 A. I don't know what to answer to this. I don't know.

17 Q. Okay. Well --

18 A. I'm sorry, I misunderstood. You said the protected person. I

19 thought you said the assistant minister. Yes, if you mean about the

20 protected person, the minister, yes.

21 Q. Okay. So if I understand you correctly, if something happened

22 that caused you to file a report during your duty, that report then would

23 be filed only with the Minister Boskoski at the time?

24 A. There was no such case but usually the minister should be informed

25 and also the assistant minister for security.

Page 5571

1 Q. Okay. So there was some method of informing the assistant

2 minister as well.

3 A. This is how things should have gone. Up until now this has not

4 happened with the exception of this one case I mentioned which transpired

5 in front of the building of the parliament.

6 Q. If the Ministry of Interior itself needed additional staff could

7 they pool staff from your security sector?

8 A. Could you please repeat the question.

9 Q. If the Ministry of Interior in 2001 needed additional staff, could

10 they pool persons from the security staff, the security sector?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On page 69 of today's transcript you indicated that you had

13 received information about a report given to Goran Mitevski. You never

14 actually saw this report, did you?

15 A. Yes, this is correct, I have not seen the report.

16 Q. Okay. And going back to page 58 of today's transcript where you

17 testified about exhumations in Neprosteno, can I ask you has anyone spoken

18 to you about the evidence you're providing today?

19 A. That someone spoke to me about what I'm saying now? No.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. MOTOIKE: I have nothing further.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you then.

23 You will be pleased to know that concludes the questions for you.

24 You will be free to return to your normal activities. The Chamber would

25 thank you for coming to The Hague and for the assistance that you've

Page 5572

1 given.

2 And the court officer will show you out. Thank you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. It has been a pleasure.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I take it that concludes the evidence

6 available today, so we will adjourn then to resume at 2.15 tomorrow.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.41 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day of

9 September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.