Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5903

1 Tuesday, 2 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.13 a.m.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Now we were still concluding,

8 Mr. Mettraux, some exhibits.

9 MR. METTRAUX: Good morning, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: I see you are repositioned for today but I must

11 call on you first.

12 MR. METTRAUX: Our colleagues have been promoted, I think, Your

13 Honour.

14 The next document to be tendered was Rule 65 ter 1D715. This was

15 the White House statement which accompanied the presidential order of 26

16 of June of 2001, Your Honour.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE PARKER: The one earlier press statement was included

19 despite our hesitation because of a possibility that it may not have been

20 adequately reflected in the transcript. I don't think that can be said of

21 this one. The cross-examination on this one is clear. So the Chamber's

22 view is that this should not be received.

23 MR. METTRAUX: I simply wish to make it clear, Your Honour, this

24 is an official statement. If I said press, it wasn't a press article,

25 simply to make it clear it was an official statement from the White House.

Page 5904

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. What does that establish?

2 MR. METTRAUX: Very well. The next document is --

3 JUDGE PARKER: You understand what I mean by that.


5 JUDGE PARKER: There could be official statements from 50

6 governments in the world. They're not going to help us decide any

7 particular facts.

8 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, the next document which the Defence

9 would seek to tender is Rule 65 ter 1D118 and that is the conclusion of

10 the council meeting of the EU dated 16 and 17 of 2001, to which an annex

11 is attached which is a recommendation and conclusion raised by the council

12 of the European Union. It is dated the 16 and 17 of July of 2001.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D237, Your Honours.

15 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, the next document is Rule 65 ter

16 1D807. This is a bulletin of non-compliance with the cease-fire. You

17 will recall that it came from the Prosecution through the OSCE archives

18 and the issue which had been put to the witness in relation to this

19 document was the sandbagging of the mosque in the village of Nikustak in

20 which the headquarters of this brigade was located.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

22 MS. REGUE: Good morning, Your Honours.

23 I would raise the same concern than with the other document

24 yesterday. There is like an extract with different entries and the

25 witness was only shown a particular entry about one particular day on two

Page 5905

1 times. So if my learned colleague seeks to tender this document, I will

2 actually to focus on this particular entry not the whole bulletin.

3 MR. METTRAUX: We'd be happy, Your Honour, to seek to tender only

4 the first page if we can make arrangements with the registry to that

5 effect.

6 JUDGE PARKER: But is not the content that you're interested in

7 reflected in the transcript?

8 MR. METTRAUX: It is, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: We would not receive the document.

10 MR. METTRAUX: The next document, Your Honour, is one of the

11 documents which was mentioned originally at the start of the hearing in

12 the absence of the witness. It's Rule 65 ter 1D817, and it relates to a

13 record made by a particular embassy or transmitted through a particular

14 embassy as regards the setting on fire of houses and churches in, or at

15 least one church, in the village of Matejce, which was again the

16 headquarters of the brigade of the witness.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Again, I ask the question, is not that reflected

18 fully in your questioning?

19 MR. METTRAUX: We hope it is, Your Honour, yes.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It will not be received.

21 MR. METTRAUX: The next document, Your Honour, is Rule 65 ter

22 1D823. This is a so-called spot report dated the 6th of March of 2001 and

23 it comes from the OSCE.

24 JUDGE PARKER: And the justification for us receiving it?

25 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, this is a document that was put to the

Page 5906

1 witness in response to his claim that members of the NLA were at all times

2 wearing uniforms. Documents reveal to the contrary.

3 JUDGE PARKER: And that issue was fully ventilated with the

4 witness?

5 MR. METTRAUX: We believe so, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE PARKER: It will not be received.

7 MR. METTRAUX: The next document, Your Honour, is Rule 65 ter

8 1D811. This was a report of the 3rd Guardist Brigade of the Macedonian

9 army, which is a record, effectively, of the incident in Ljubotenski

10 Bacila. It is dated the 10th of August of 2001.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D238, Your Honours.

13 MR. METTRAUX: There was one more document, Your Honour, but in

14 view of your previous ruling, we will not seek to tender this one. That

15 will be all.

16 JUDGE PARKER: You will understand that we're concerned to ensure

17 that we don't clutter the record with documents that have been adequately

18 dealt with in cross-examination or examination-in-chief and the contents

19 of which that are material to this case are already reflected fully in the

20 transcript.

21 MR. METTRAUX: I'm grateful, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mettraux.

23 Mr. Apostolski.

24 MS. REGUE: Your Honour.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Sorry, Ms. Regue.

Page 5907

1 MS. REGUE: Just a small comment with regard to these last

2 documents that has been tendered. It was actually produced by a former

3 witness, Mr. Despodov, and just to indicate for the record that it was not

4 put to him during cross-examination and not tendered through this witness

5 in cross-examination by my learned colleague. Just for the record.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying that it is already an exhibit?

7 MS. REGUE: No. I'm saying that it is not an exhibit, but it's a

8 document produced by General Despodov who was a witness here.


10 MS. REGUE: And during the cross-examination it was not put to him

11 and it was not tendered through him. So I'm just stating that for the

12 record.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. This

16 repositioning of the Defence is due to technical reasons because we wish

17 to use some video-clips and only the front line of the Defence can resort

18 to using them.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. My name is Antonio

23 Apostolski, and together with Jasmina Zivkovic, we are the Defence counsel

24 of Johan Tarculovski.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 5908

1 Q. Before I begin my questioning, I wish to point out to you that you

2 perhaps understand my language in which I will pose you the question, but

3 I will ask you nonetheless for interpretation to be done on the part of

4 the interpreters that these questions be interpreted into your own

5 language and to respond duly afterwards, all with the aim of avoiding

6 overlap, my questions with your answers.

7 Are we ready to begin, Witness?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You were born in Skopje on 29th of December, 1967. Is this

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You finished your primary education in Skopje?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In 1987, in January, you graduated from the Military Academy in

15 Sarajevo. Is this correct?

16 A. In Sarajevo and in Croatia, in Zadar.

17 Q. Can you tell us which speciality and military branch of the

18 academy did you finish?

19 A. In anti-aircraft, radar operator, controlling the aircraft.

20 Q. You told us that after completing the academy you assumed the rank

21 Sergeant. Is this correct?

22 A. True.

23 Q. Does this mean that you did not complete a Military Academy but,

24 rather, secondary military school?

25 A. The middle military school was in Sarajevo; and I completed half

Page 5909

1 of the Military Academy in Zadar, of Croatia.

2 Q. Is it correct that if you had completed the academy, the first

3 rank would you have received would be lieutenant, second lieutenant?

4 A. Military -- the military school was four years in Sarajevo, and it

5 was one year in Zadar that I completed.

6 And you would receive that rank only if you completed four years.

7 Q. You would concur with me that you had not finished the military

8 academy as you had stated previously?

9 A. It depends how that was understood.

10 Q. In your statement, you decisively state and now you confirm that

11 you completed the Military Academy. Under Military Academy, I understand,

12 a faculty, a military faculty which is contrary to your response that

13 followed.

14 A. It -- my -- my aim wasn't to -- to say what I graduated, but I was

15 telling you how many years I studied where.

16 Q. Thank you. As of February 1992, you began working in the army of

17 the Republic of Macedonia. Is this correct?

18 A. I think it was April or May, because in 1992 I left the Yugoslav

19 army and that was in February.

20 Q. As an ethnic Albanian, then, without any problems due to ethnic

21 affiliations, you found employment in the army of the Republic of

22 Macedonia immediately after the Republic of Macedonia became independent

23 and its army was formed. Is this correct?

24 A. I was one of those 90.

25 Q. Can you tell us which rank you had in the Macedonian army in 2001,

Page 5910

1 prior to your leaving the army?

2 A. B Sergeant.

3 Q. Can you concur with me that you advanced in your service, during

4 your service in the army of the Republic of Macedonia?

5 A. Yes. I was promoted, but it was late, very late.

6 Q. Is it correct that in 2001, Zejadin Tushi, an ethnic Albanian, was

7 the director of the headquarters of the Republic of Macedonia with General

8 Major rank and the third person in the military hierarchy in the army?

9 A. That's true.

10 Q. Is it correct that in 2001, Brigadier-General Fadil Gazafer, an

11 ethnic Albanian was commander of the 1st Infantry Brigade, which was the

12 only professional unit in the army of the Republic of Macedonia, and later

13 became the deputy of the Chiefs of Staff of the army which -- a position

14 which he holds to this day?

15 A. It's true that Fadil Gazafer was the commander, but he was not

16 Albanian. He has declared himself as Turkish.

17 Q. Is it correct that in 2001, the chief of G-5 of the General Staff

18 the sector for mobilisation was Colonel Naser Sejdini, an ethnic Albanian?

19 A. Naser who? Naser Sejdini.

20 Q. Naser Sejdini.

21 A. I know that he's a military officer but I don't know that he holds

22 that position, as chief of G-5.

23 Q. Could you agree with me that many of the head positions of the

24 army of the Republic of Macedonia were held by ethnic Albanians which is

25 contrary to your testimony before this esteemed Court, that Albanians were

Page 5911

1 not able to advance in their professions because of their ethnic

2 affiliation?

3 A. That's not correct, sir. Because there were also officers from

4 the former Yugoslavia and it was a continuation then from the army of the

5 former Yugoslavia and you cannot compare by quoting only one or two

6 Albanian officers as having those ranks. I said it a day earlier. It is

7 not important whether you are a minister or a deputy minister. It --

8 irrespective of your ethnicity. But the numbers should be in line with

9 the percentages of the population, which is roughly 25 percent.

10 Q. Nonetheless, my question is: Regarding 2001, which is ten years

11 after the independence of Macedonia, surely this automatism after ten

12 years would have not ensured them these positions, rather, that these were

13 received by promotions. Can you agree with me on this?

14 A. That's normal, on the basis of the period you've been working in

15 that profession and on that basis you get the ranks. But you're talking

16 about two or three persons. We should be talking about the proportion of

17 representation in the army.

18 Q. To my learned colleague from the Prosecution you responded that

19 after the first parliamentary election, the government began

20 discriminating the Albanians. To my colleague Mr. Mettraux he pointed out

21 there were members of parliament, Albanians after the first parliamentary

22 elections in the independent Macedonia. More than 20 per cent, it was

23 said. Is it correct that these members of parliament, more of them or the

24 majority of them, were members of the party for democratic prosperity,

25 PDP?

Page 5912

1 A. That's true. In 1990 there was only one party. There weren't two

2 political parties among the Albanians. That was in the first

3 parliamentary election.

4 Q. Is it correct that the party for democratic prosperity was the

5 second registered political party in general after the introduction of the

6 multi-party system in the Republic of Macedonia?

7 A. It is the first Albanian political party. I don't know whether it

8 was the second or the third in the Macedonian parliament.

9 Q. Is it correct that the president of this party at the time was

10 Nevzat Halili. Secretary was Mithat Emini?

11 A. The chairman was Nevzat Halili whereas the Secretary-General was

12 Mithat Emini. Mithat Emini.

13 Q. Therefore, the answer to my question is correct. Is this so?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it correct that the constitution of 1991 guarantees, guaranteed

16 full quality and permanent co-habitation of the Macedonian people with the

17 Albanians, the Turks, the Vlaks, the Roma, and other nationalities living

18 in the Republic of Macedonia?

19 A. That's not true. It wasn't guaranteed by that document. That's

20 why the deputies for the party for democratic prosperity did not vote in

21 support of this document.

22 Q. My question was whether this was guaranteed or not.

23 A. It doesn't guarantee.

24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

25 P91, page ERN N001-8938-001; Macedonian version, ERN N001-8970-001.

Page 5913

1 English version accepted as evidence.

2 Q. Do you see before you, Witness, where it is stated: "

3 Constitution, parliament of the Republic of Macedonia"?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters didn't hear the comment.

5 A. Yes, I see.

6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Could you see that this is the preamble of the constitution of the

8 Republic of Macedonia. In the first paragraph --

9 A. I can see it, but I can't read clearly.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the first paragraph be

11 enlarged, please.

12 Q. Sir, it is said: "Macedonia is constituted as a national state of

13 the Macedonian people full equality and permanent co-habitation is secured

14 of the Macedonian people with the Albanians, the Turks, the Vlaks, the

15 Roma, and other nationalities living in the Republic of Macedonia."

16 Do you see this before you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it correct that this preamble of the Republic of Macedonia

19 guarantees full equality, civil equality, of all enumerated and

20 non-enumerated nationalities living in Macedonia?

21 A. Depends on how you interpret this preamble. I said it --

22 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the same constitution which was

23 also in power in 2001 in the units of local self-government where the

24 majority or a substantial number was inhabited by members of the

25 nationalities, in addition to the Macedonian language and the Cyrillic

Page 5914

1 alphabet, the language and the alphabet of the nationalities were also in

2 official use in a manner and under conditions determined by law?

3 A. That is not true. The Albanian language was not an official

4 language.

5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

6 P91, page 2, ERN number N001-8938-002; Macedonian version and ERN

7 N001-8970-002 received as evidence.

8 Q. Could I bring your attention to the paragraph 7.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Article 7, interpreter's correction.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Do you see it in front of you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it correct that the Article 7 reads: "In the Republic of

14 Macedonia, the official language is the Macedonian and Cyrillic alphabet."

15 And it further states: "In the unit of local self-government where the --

16 where members of the local communities are a -- members of ethnic

17 minorities are a majority apart from the Macedonian alphabet and the

18 Cyrillic alphabet, the language and the alphabet of the ethnic minorities

19 will be used in a manner established by law."

20 And it further states that: "In the local self-government units

21 where there is a significant number of residents belonging to the ethnic

22 minorities, apart from the Macedonian language and Cyrillic alphabet, also

23 the language and the alphabet of the minorities will be in official use

24 under the circumstances and in a manner established by law."

25 Is it correct that pursuant to Article 7 of the constitution, it

Page 5915

1 is guaranteed, it is allowed the right to official use of other languages

2 of the ethnic minorities, apart from the Macedonian language, where they

3 are prevalent or where they are in a significant number, so even where

4 there is a significant number?

5 A. I still didn't give you my answer.

6 Your Honours, please, let me answer to this question.

7 JUDGE PARKER: That's what you're invited to do, Mr. Bushi.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But he just interrupted me.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Please carry on.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What you're saying is not true.

11 This preamble and it was precisely this Article that was changed, that was

12 subject to change during the Ohrid Agreement. As I said earlier, it

13 depends on how you interpret the constitution. The fact is that this, in

14 reality, did not exist.

15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is it correct that in 2001 there was education in the Albanian

17 language in all grades of the elementary, secondary and higher education?

18 A. There was only one secondary school in Skopje in the Albanian

19 language. It was Gymnasium Zef Lushmarku.

20 Q. Was there a secondary school in Tetovo in the Albanian language?

21 A. There was.

22 Q. Was there a secondary school in the Albanian language in Gostivar?

23 A. Of course there was. There should be.

24 Q. Was there a secondary school, for instance, in Albanian language

25 in Strumice?

Page 5916

1 A. In Strumice?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. To my knowledge, in Albanian, no.

4 Q. Is it correct that you confirm through your evidence that in every

5 city where there is Albanian population there was secondary education

6 provided in Albanian language and in the city of Strumice where no

7 Albanians live, of course, there is no Albanian language education?

8 A. But why, then, there is no secondary school in the Albanian in

9 Manastir or Bitola where there are Albanians living? You cannot make such

10 comparisons as far as education is concerned. When you only have one

11 secondary school in the Albanian language, Zef Lushmarku in Skopje, when

12 you have such a large figure of Albanian population in Skopje and there

13 are only seven or eight classes teaching in Albanian in this secondary

14 school.

15 Q. Is it correct that in 2001, the Macedonian Albanians had a

16 pedagogical academy and dramatic arts academy in the Albanian language, as

17 well as the theological Islamic faculty and the secondary Islam school?

18 A. The secondary theological school, the Medresa and the theological

19 faculty did exist. This pertains to the pedagogical academy as well, but

20 at a university level there were only two universities in Macedonia: the

21 University of Skopje and the University of Bitola and they were both

22 Macedonian universities. We didn't have any Albanian university.

23 You know very well that when the Tetovo university was established

24 and which was self-financed by the Albanians just for them to be able to

25 be educated in their native language, the Macedonian police took an action

Page 5917

1 and went to Tetovo and killed the student with the last name Selimi. This

2 is what happened.

3 The Tetovo University became legal only after the Ohrid Framework

4 Agreement was signed, during the time of the coalition BDI, LSDM.

5 Q. Is it correct that at the beginning of 2001, also the

6 South-eastern University --

7 THE INTERPRETER: South-eastern Europe University, interpreter's

8 correction.

9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

10 Q. -- was opened in Tetovo and the teaching there was in Albanian?

11 A. It is true not only in Albanian but in all languages. And it was

12 not a university only in the Albanian language.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. You told my colleague Mettraux when he

14 indicated that in 2001, in the Macedonian Assembly there were members of

15 parliament who were Albanians. Is it true that they were elected in the

16 free democratic elections in 1998?

17 A. True.

18 Q. Is it correct that Ilijaz Sabriu was elected the vice-president of

19 the assembly, a person of Macedonian nationality who was ethnic Albanian?

20 A. Now I don't remember who held this position, but from the

21 beginnings of the Macedonian parliament and up until today, you always

22 have this function. But you know that there are not only one

23 vice-president or Speaker of the parliament, there are usually two or

24 three and not only Albanians but also members of other communities. And

25 this is subject to the political negotiations.

Page 5918

1 Q. So for -- throughout the time since the independence of Macedonia

2 there has been an ethnic Albanian as a vice-president of the Assembly. Is

3 that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Also, in the government of the Republic of Macedonia, in 2001,

6 there were ministers of Albanian ethnicity. You also confirmed this with

7 my colleague Mr. Mettraux. Is it correct that the deputy prime minister

8 at the time was Bedredin Ibrahimi, Macedonian national of Albanian

9 ethnicity?

10 A. The truth is what I stated earlier that these posts of deputy

11 Speaker and deputy prime minister existed but there are two or three

12 deputies, not only one. And there is subject to negotiations between the

13 ruling coalition parties.

14 Q. Is it correct that 20 per cent of the judges in the Supreme Court

15 of the Republic of Macedonia, in 2001, were Albanians?

16 A. I don't know, but I don't think that this was the case.

17 Q. Is it correct that in 2001 there was also a large number of

18 ambassadors of the Republic of Macedonia from the ethnic Albanian

19 community, for instance I would enumerate here Alajdin Demiri, ambassador

20 to Switzerland; Sami Ibraimi, ambassador to Denmark; Servet Ardiu,

21 Croatia; and others?

22 A. There was a small number, but this is not important. What was

23 important for us was the number of employees in the state administration

24 and in the institutions. Let -- let's not deal with numbers of ministers

25 and ambassadors which you can count on one hand.

Page 5919

1 Q. Is it correct that the legally elected representatives of the

2 Albanians in 2001 were against the terrorist group NLA?

3 A. It was only Menduh Thaci and part of his party members.

4 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Menduh Thaci and his party were elected in

5 the elections 1998 to represent the interests of the Albanians in the

6 parliament and they were in the parliament in 2001.

7 A. Sir, the Albanians are legitimately represented in the parliament

8 by those who win the election. This is the only democratic way. The

9 party that wins the election takes a seat in the parliament and

10 legitimately represents the Albanian people. These people did not win the

11 election at the time but it was the wish of the prime minister then

12 Ljupco Georgievski, to take for his part Menduh Thaci. As I mentioned

13 earlier, this government was not interested in politics but in business

14 but this brought to the war in 2001. The party that loses the election

15 cannot become a legitimate representative of the people because, in this

16 case, the will of the people has been violated.

17 Q. Is it correct that the DPA was actually the will of the Albanian

18 people in 1998, because they won the majority of Albanian seats in the

19 parliament in the elections of 1998?

20 A. Sir, you're not very familiar with this field. What you're saying

21 is not true.

22 The elections in 1998 were won by PPD [as interpreted] and not by

23 PDSH.

24 Q. With regards to PDP or DPA, or Albanian abbreviation PDSH, will be

25 dealt with later when we discuss the Framework Agreement. Is it correct

Page 5920

1 that there were signatories to the Ohrid Framework Agreement, PDP and DPA?

2 A. Which agreement -- yes, yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Menduh Thaci, vice-president of the DPA,

4 stated publicly that NLA is just a gang of criminals?

5 A. He said that in 2001, and he says it today in 2007. But a true

6 Albanian would never say that, sir.

7 Q. Very well. Does it also correspond to the statements of renowned

8 politicians such as George Robertson and Javier Solana?

9 A. I don't know if it corresponds with the statement, but I will tell

10 you again that we were a regular army and not criminals as Menduh Thaci

11 used to call us then and now. We were a regular army with our uniform,

12 with our emblem and with our rules.

13 Q. My colleague Mettraux read to you that the terrorist organisation

14 NLA had no support, neither by NATO nor the European Union. Do you recall

15 this?

16 A. Yes, I recall him asking me these questions.

17 Q. Are you aware that all NATO member states, as well as the 15

18 member states of the European Union, all of them have named or called your

19 organisation NLA terrorists or group of thugs and murderers and they

20 supported the Macedonian security forces to deal with your terrorist

21 actions?

22 A. Part of these statements could be so, but not all what you're

23 saying, sir. I have mentioned earlier that this was in the beginning of

24 the war, and you probably know that the US, NATO, and the European Union

25 were the guarantors of the Ohrid Agreement. How can they support

Page 5921

1 terrorists? This really doesn't make sense to me.

2 Q. You are saying that that was at the beginning of the war. In your

3 opinion, what is that time, the beginning of the war, and until how long

4 did this beginning last?

5 A. The war began on 14th of February and ended with the

6 demobilisation on the 26th of September. You know very well that there

7 word "terrorist" did not appear on the Ohrid Framework Agreement why

8 nobody from the Macedonian representatives wrote down on that document, on

9 that agreement that we were terrorists. If we were such and if that word

10 appeared on the Ohrid Framework Agreement, that agreement would never have

11 been made. You must be aware of that, sir.

12 And the Ohrid Agreement foresaw, envisaged an amnesty for the NLA

13 members and the NLA leadership. In which country have you seen an example

14 of terrorists being amnestied?

15 Q. Very well. We will discuss the Ohrid Framework Agreement later.

16 A. You asked me the question now and I cannot answer to this question

17 by saying yes or no only.

18 Q. I asked you -- I'm asking you and you confirm that the war started

19 on the 26th of February?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 14th of February.

21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

22 Q. So which time-period do you consider to be this beginning of the

23 war, the time that you were considered terrorists? Would this be until

24 the 14th of March, for instance, that you considered the beginning? Could

25 you please note which is the period that you yourself considered to be the

Page 5922

1 beginning of the war?

2 A. We consider the entire period war because we started the war, but

3 we did not know at the time when the war would end, whether in 2001 or 2

4 or 3 or 4 or 5. We knew when the war began, but we didn't know then when

5 it would end.

6 Q. I would like to show you now the video recording from a press

7 conference of George Robertson, NATO Secretary-General and Javier Solana,

8 High Representative for Foreign Security Policy of the European Union,

9 dated 7th of May, 2001.

10 MS. REGUE: Excuse me, Your Honours. Could my learned colleague

11 state the ERN or the 65 ter of this video for the record.

12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] This video-clip does not have an

13 ERN number but the Prosecution was informed in writing that we would use

14 this video-clip.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Do you have any concern, Ms. Regue?

16 MS. REGUE: Well, Your Honours, I would like to know the source

17 because we were informed, in fact, about the title but to be honest we

18 thought that there was a ERN on the video.

19 We would like to know actually the source, the date of this

20 document, please.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Can you indicate the source and the date, please,

22 Mr. Apostolski.

23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. 7th of May,

24 2001. And the source is the Macedonian Television as well as for the

25 other evidence that the Prosecution has secured from the Macedonian

Page 5923

1 Television.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please continue with your playing.

3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we please ...

4 [Videotape played]

5 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Ladies and gentlemen, there were

6 quite extensive discussions with the President Solana and with ..."

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I have two

9 interpretations here.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Could you wait until [Microphone not activated]

11 [Videotape played]

12 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Apostolski, that has presented a

13 significant problem because the witness has not been able to hear what was

14 being said. He has had no translation because it's come from a video

15 soundtrack, and therefore those two speeches have not reached him.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE PARKER: Now do we correctly understand that you were not

18 able to follow this?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, sir. But I was able to

20 follow bits.

21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the video-clip was

22 in English and with interpretation in Macedonian so we considered,

23 considering that the witness speaks the Macedonian language that he would

24 be able to understand the video-clip.

25 JUDGE PARKER: You can see the problem of introducing a video

Page 5924

1 which is not in the system and for which there is no written transcript.

2 Now what you're going to have to do if you want to cross-examine

3 on any part of that is to give to the witness, at least orally, a

4 translation of what is said at any particular point.

5 Do you want to be asking in detail about aspects about what was

6 said there?

7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I only wanted to

8 show to the witness that Sir George Robertson and Sir Javier Solana did

9 not support the NLA organisation and that the organisation NLA was called

10 a group of thugs, murderers and terrorists. That was the point of this

11 video-clip for me.

12 JUDGE PARKER: You may be able to ask the witness whether he

13 understood from what you heard of that and saw of that --

14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE PARKER: -- if that was their message. If he didn't, it is

16 going to be hard going from then on.

17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 Q. Witness, from what you understood from the video-clip, have you

19 heard that Lord Robertson and Javier Solana did not support your

20 organisation and that they called you a group of thugs, murderers and

21 terrorists?

22 A. I heard some bits. I didn't hear them saying all these words.

23 And secondly, I'm not saying that in the beginning of the 2001 war we had

24 a full support, but I can tell you one thing, that the withdrawal of the

25 NLA soldiers from Haracin village was carried out by the United States of

Page 5925

1 America. This is a fact. I'm not saying that they supported us in combat

2 with the Macedonian security forces.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

4 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, maybe I was wrong because I was taking

5 notes when the video was playing, but I didn't any hear calling the NLA,

6 well, this organisation a terrorist group either.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I noted the words in one passage, "murderous thugs

8 in hills to the north." I think at some other point the word "terrorist"

9 was used, but --

10 MS. REGUE: I believe it was acts of terrorism but not terrorist

11 organisation, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Acts of terrorism may have been the case.

13 But I think Mr. Apostolski has got the answer he was hoping for or

14 looking for.

15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, is it correct that on the 13th of August, the Ohrid

17 Framework Agreement was signed. You had already stated this. Is it

18 correct that the signatories to the Framework Agreement were Imer Imeri

19 and Arben Xhaferi as legitimate representatives of the Albanians in

20 Macedonia?

21 A. They were representatives of the Albanian people, but not --

22 correction, of the Albanian political parties but not of the Albanian

23 people in general. And it is true that they did sign this agreement.

24 Q. Is it correct that no NLA representative had signed the Framework

25 Agreement in Ohrid?

Page 5926

1 A. It is correct that they did not sign it, but it was drafted by --

2 prepared by members of the NLA. So both Imeri and Xhaferi, they were

3 just -- they were just there, present.

4 Q. Is it correct that no NLA representatives signed the Ohrid

5 Framework Agreement, since NLA did not represent the interests of the

6 Albanians and it was not supported by the international community? You

7 yourself stated that the international community did not negotiate with

8 terrorists.

9 A. I said that the international community never negotiates with

10 terrorists. I told you that they negotiated with us in a capacity of a

11 regular army, and they negotiated with our political representative

12 Mr. Ali Ahmeti.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, do you think,

14 Mr. Apostolski.

15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes [In English] Okay.

16 JUDGE PARKER: We will adjourn now, and we expect to be resuming

17 at 11.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Apostolski.

21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in regards to the

22 previous video-clip, we spoke with my colleagues of the Prosecution, so

23 for the same video-clip, there will be a transcript made on our part and

24 it will be uploaded in an electronic version.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

Page 5927

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, do you understand the Macedonian language?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you be shown a video-clip with titles in the Macedonian

5 language? Would you be able to follow it?

6 JUDGE PARKER: If that's going to happen, we need to turn off the

7 microphones on the witness's desk.

8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's no problem.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If the witness may be shown a

13 video-clip with the statement of the Ambassador of Great Britain,

14 Mark Dickenson, of April 2001. The source is Macedonian Television.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness, could you agree with me that in his statement

18 Mr. Mark Dickenson, Ambassador of Great Britain in Macedonia, called your

19 organisations as extremists and terrorists, which want to introduce

20 anarchy in the country by their terrorist acts?

21 A. I heard that from the former Ambassador Dickenson, but I'm

22 convinced that the gentleman does not know the meaning of terrorism. And

23 I said earlier these statements of the European and international

24 representatives were at the beginning of the war.

25 Q. Is it correct that Ambassador Dickenson stated that your

Page 5928

1 organisation does not have the support of 99 per cent of the population of

2 the Albanians in Macedonia?

3 A. It's different from what he states, and the reality is quite

4 different. He couldn't have spoken on behalf of the Albanian people. He

5 could speak as a representative of Britain and as an ambassador. But not

6 as a representative of the Albanian people in Macedonia.

7 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Mark Dickenson in his statement also

8 mentions that the goals of your organisations are unclear because at one

9 point federalisation of the state is requested, further on a constituent

10 nation status is requested which is contrary to your statement for the

11 goals of your organisation?

12 A. This is not true. What he says is not true. Our aims were quite

13 clear.

14 Q. Can you tell me what your goals were?

15 A. The main aim was a change in the constitution so that we could be

16 a constituent nation and enjoy equal rights with other peoples.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me how many numbers -- how many people

18 numbered the NLA?

19 A. I don't know the exact number, but roughly I could say 5 to 6.000

20 members.

21 Q. Is it correct that there were members of the NLA from Kosovo?

22 A. In the NLA there were members from everywhere. There were a small

23 number of Kosovo, some from Albania, but there were also Roma who were

24 members of the NLA, so ...

25 Q. Can you tell us what is that small number from Kosovo? Do you

Page 5929

1 know this figure, do you know this number?

2 A. I couldn't say the exact number. In my brigade, I could say there

3 was a small number, but I couldn't give any figures about other brigades.

4 Q. And they fought, as you yourself said, for changing the

5 constitution of the Republic of Macedonia. Is this correct?

6 A. They helped the war.

7 Q. Would you please answer my question whether they fought for

8 changing the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia because you said

9 that the goals of your organisation was to change the Constitution of the

10 Republic of Macedonia.

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. You said that the number of NLA was 5.000 to 6.000 members. Is it

13 correct that each one of them was equipped with infantry weapons?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it correct that most frequently members of the NLA used

16 Kalashnikovs of Chinese origin?

17 A. Chinese and Russian.

18 Q. You said that your brigade numbered a thousand people. Is it

19 correct that each of one of them was disarmed with demoblisation, with the

20 Harvest action?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it correct that each member of the NLA was disarmed with the

23 Operation Essential Harvest?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Is it possible that some of the soldiers did not hand over their

Page 5930

1 weapons, members of the NLA?

2 A. I don't think that would have been possible because in order to

3 take a certificate that the NLA was demobilised, one of the first items

4 was to hand over the weapons. And that any member could not have handed

5 over his weapon, I don't believe this.

6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

7 65 ter 2D00-367. This is a statement by Gezim Ostreni, page 10, paragraph

8 46 of the English version and page 9 of the Macedonian version. Paragraph

9 46.

10 Q. Can you see paragraph -- this paragraph 46 in front of you?

11 A. 46? Yes, I see that.

12 Q. Can you read in it that it says: "Eventually every NLA member had

13 a weapon. The number of weapons matched the number of soldiers. In

14 Operation Harvest, 3.875 pieces of weapons were handed over by the NLA to

15 NATO. It is possible that some soldiers did not hand over their weapons."

16 A. Yes, I see that.

17 Q. Did your so-called chief of General Staff said that maybe all of

18 them were not disarmed and that, as you said, if the NLA had 5 to 6.000

19 members and all of them had at least one piece of weapon, then the numbers

20 which you state and the numbers which are mentioned by your head of

21 General Staff do not match?

22 A. Didn't give an accurate number, I said it may be 5 to 6.000; it

23 could be 4.000. And I also said that someone may not have handed over the

24 weapon. And he is not the so-called Chief of Staff of the NLA but he's

25 the Chief of Staff of -- of General Staff of the NLA.

Page 5931

1 Q. You said -- Witness, earlier you said that every member of the NLA

2 handed over the weapon. This was two minutes ago. And that this was

3 obligatory in order for you to receive a certificate that you were an

4 army. Is this correct?

5 A. It's accurate, but I said that may be someone who had not handed

6 over, but I don't believe it. That's what I said earlier.

7 Q. Mr. Gezim Ostreni has said this in his statement while you here

8 today testified that everybody handed over their weapon, but let us

9 proceed. Is it correct that the NLA comprised of a number of brigades,

10 you confirmed this, the 112, 113, 114, 115?

11 A. 115?

12 Q. Can you tell us whether you implemented a coordinated operation

13 that would include two or more brigades?

14 A. We had a genuine coordination with the 113rd Brigade.

15 Q. So together with the 113 Brigade, you carried out joint

16 operations. Is this what you testify before this Court?

17 A. Not joint operations, but coordination as far as the front line

18 was concerned. Joint front line we had -- we shared.

19 Q. Do you know in the period of 2001 whether any one of these

20 brigades, which you so call, carried out a joint operation?

21 A. There hasn't been in our case.

22 Q. Therefore, each brigade acted independently -- independently of

23 your General Chiefs of Staff?

24 A. It's not correct. We operated on the basis of the military

25 hierarchy. We got our orders from the General Staff and from the chief of

Page 5932

1 General Staff, Gezim Ostreni, General Gezim Ostreni.

2 Q. Is it correct that each brigade fought in accordance with its own

3 plan and assessment? Can you tell this?

4 A. We had our own plans, and on the basis of the circumstances. But

5 on -- on many things, on certain things we had to coordinate our

6 activities with General Staff.

7 Q. Therefore, you here testify that every brigade, each brigade

8 worked in coordination, or with coordination of the chief of General

9 Staff. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

12 point 53, item 53, of Gezim Ostreni's statement which is already on the

13 screen. Item 53. This is on page 10.

14 Q. Do you see before you item 53? This is the statement of your

15 chief of General Staff.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At the end of item 53 it is said that: "Every brigade had an area

18 (zone) of responsibility and each was fighting according to its own plan

19 and judgement. We actually did not have a possibility to conduct any

20 coordinated operations involving several brigades."

21 Did your chief of General Staff in his statement say something

22 contrary to which you have now testified?

23 A. I don't understand what you're saying, but the General and myself

24 are saying one and the same thing.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

Page 5933

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

2 MS. REGUE: Sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, but I think

3 Mr. Apostolski and the statement of Mr. Ostreni are dealing with different

4 issues. I think that one issue is the coordination that each brigade

5 would have with the General Staff; that's what the witness answered. And

6 what Mr. Ostreni here says is joint coordination actions among the

7 brigade, which is a second issue.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 I leave it to you, Mr. Apostolski, whether you want to explore

10 further on that issue.

11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Is it correct that each member of the brigade had a uniform with

13 the insignia of the NLA?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Is it correct that the uniform -- they received the uniform when

16 they joined your brigade?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. When they joined the brigade, when they took

18 an oath.

19 Q. Therefore, once they were in the brigade, they took a uniform and

20 then they had an oath, they took an oath. Is this correct?

21 A. Yes, they took the uniform, they took an oath, and they underwent

22 military training as laid out in the NLA rule book.

23 Q. Is it correct that your commander Gezim Ostreni told you that a

24 person without a uniform would be considered as a criminal, not as a

25 fighter?

Page 5934

1 A. We had it in our rule book that a member of the NLA would not go

2 out and about without a uniform.

3 Q. Is it correct that you adopted all military standards and

4 procedures in establishing the brigade?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. You had rules for establishing a brigade, rules for mobilisation

7 of a battalion, rules for commanding a brigade. Is this correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Is it correct that these rules were received by you from the

10 Chiefs of Staff -- from the General Staff?

11 A. That's true.

12 Q. And you adopted all the planned military standards and procedures

13 during the establishment of your brigade.

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And all the other brigades had adopted the planned military

16 standards and procedures. Is that correct as well?

17 A. Correct.

18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

19 65 ter 2D00-367, page 6, paragraph 28, Macedonian and the English version.

20 That is the statement of Gezim Ostreni given to the ICTY investigators.

21 Q. In paragraph 28 -- can you see it in front of you?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. He says that: "Because of the short period between March 2001

24 when I joined the NLA, and the beginning of August when Ohrid Agreement

25 was signed, it was impossible to adopt all planned military standards and

Page 5935

1 procedures."

2 Do you see this?

3 A. I see it.

4 Q. Could you agree with me that your head of -- chief of General

5 Staff says something that is in contradiction with your evidence here,

6 that you had adopted all planned standards and procedures?

7 A. With full responsibility, I am stating here that my brigade

8 followed all the procedures and standards in the establishment of 114th

9 Brigade.

10 You asked me about my brigade. This could refer to the beginning

11 of the war in Tanushevc when you're saying that someone did not follow

12 these procedures. I'm here giving evidence about my brigade.

13 Q. But I asked you about the other brigades and you stated that the

14 other brigades had it done. Is that correct, do you recall saying that?

15 A. Yes. And I believe that that is the case.

16 Q. But after I read to you the statement of your Chief of Staff,

17 could you agree with me that it was not so?

18 A. I don't agree with you.

19 Q. So what your Chief of Staff has stated would be incorrect.

20 A. I can see what he stated in his statement, the chief of General

21 Staff, but I don't know which period of time he is referring to in this

22 statement. The 114th Brigade was established on the 1st of July and you

23 know this very well.

24 Q. I will read once again that your chief of General Staff speaks

25 about the time-period between 2001, when he joined the NLA and the

Page 5936

1 beginning of August, when the Ohrid Agreement was signed.

2 And further on, he states that during that period, it was

3 impossible to adopt all planned military standards and procedures. Does

4 that comprise the entire period of war that you are also speaking about?

5 A. This refers to the entire period, but it does not speak about

6 114th Brigade. You asked me about my brigade, and I can tell you with

7 full responsibility that my brigade followed all the standards and

8 procedures when it was established.

9 Q. And you managed to introduce those standards and procedures within

10 four days, as you stated to my colleague Guenael that it took you four

11 days to establish your brigade. Would that be your evidence?

12 A. My evidence is the following. The creation, the establishment of

13 the staff of the brigade took three days, while the establishment of the

14 brigade took the entire period up until the demobilisation. So throughout

15 this period, we mobilised new soldiers, and this happened until the Ohrid

16 Agreement was signed.

17 Q. You stated to my colleague when he cross-examined you yesterday

18 that everyone in your brigade had ranks. Your deputy was Halil Paloshi.

19 What was his rank? Are you able to say that?

20 A. Halil Paloshi?

21 Q. Yes.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer because

23 of overlapping in the booth.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the military formation of a

25 brigade, he had the rank of a colonel, lieutenant-colonel.

Page 5937

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Could you please tell me about your head of logistics,

3 Selam Hasani. What was his rank?

4 A. Based on the formation, I think he was a captain or first class

5 captain.

6 Q. Commander of the military police was Jahi Nuhilu [as interpreted].

7 Can you tell me what was his rank?

8 A. Nuhiju. I don't remember his rank exactly. I think he was a

9 captain. But, as I said, I don't remember exactly. And this was in line

10 with the formation.

11 Q. Do you recall whether the military police in your brigade had ever

12 detained someone, a member of your brigade, for not observing the

13 discipline?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you tell me in relation to which event.

16 A. For failing to comply with the internal rules of the NLA.

17 Q. Did you run a disciplinary procedure against that person later,

18 within your brigade?

19 A. No, we didn't follow a disciplinary procedure.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you. You stated that Xhavit Hasani with

21 nickname Marshall had the rank of a captain. Is that correct?

22 A. Captain or captain first class, yes.

23 Q. Do you remember at the beginning of your evidence you stated to my

24 learned colleague from the Prosecution that you confirmed actually the

25 ranks that your officers had in the brigade?

Page 5938

1 A. I don't remember.

2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

3 P445. Exhibit P455.

4 Q. Do you see them in front of you?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Very well. So do you remember now that you confirmed to my

7 colleague that these were the ranks or the patches worn, depending on the

8 rank, by your officers?

9 A. These are not the emblems, but the ranks, the NLA ranks.

10 Q. It must have been a mistake in the interpretation. I asked you

11 about the ranks.

12 A. All right. These are the ranks.

13 Q. Is it correct that the discipline and the management of operation

14 of the NLA was decided based on the ranks?

15 A. The officers were assigned ranks based on the military formation

16 they led, and with time, through merit.

17 Q. I'm asking you whether it is correct that in the NLA from the very

18 beginning that discipline and the management of operations were determined

19 based on the ranks, or were the ranks respected at all in the operation of

20 the NLA.

21 A. I really don't understand this question. I don't know if you

22 formulated it correctly. What you're saying here is ranks and operations.

23 What I told you is that the ranks were assigned based on the military

24 formation, and later on, based on merit of soldiers or officers.

25 Q. I will reframe the question then. Was the hierarchy strictly

Page 5939

1 observed, based on the ranks? Could a captain order a colonel?

2 A. No.

3 Q. That means that the hierarchy was strictly respected, the

4 hierarchy in ranks. Is that correct?

5 A. Now it's okay. I agree, that's correct.

6 Q. So you agree with me, then, that in the NLA the discipline and the

7 management in its operation and its functioning were determined based on

8 the ranks?

9 A. All right.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

11 65 ter 2D00-3667, page 6, paragraph 28.

12 Q. It is again a statement by your chief of General Staff

13 Gezim Ostreni, who in paragraph 28, towards the middle. Can you see it?

14 There's -- there it is at the beginning where it is written. That he

15 says: "From the very beginning, the management and discipline in the NLA

16 were not determined based on the ranks but according to the hierarchy of

17 the position."

18 Do you see this in front of you? Do you see this in front of you,

19 what I have just read?

20 A. I see it.

21 Q. Can you agree with me that your so-called commander, the chief of

22 General Staff, speaks something that is in complete contradiction with

23 you, that the hierarchy was not exactly observed based on the ranks, as

24 you assert it were?

25 A. Sir, I'm stating here things about 114th Brigade. As I said

Page 5940

1 earlier, the 114th Brigade was established on the 1st of July and there

2 was time for all these things to be followed. And as far as I can see,

3 the General Gezim Ostreni not speaking about the 114th Brigade. It is

4 true that in the beginning we didn't have barracks, but as time went by we

5 had everything. His statement speaks of the beginning. It says from the

6 beginning. When you're asking me about 114th Brigade, I will reply

7 accordingly because I have facts as far as my brigade is concerned.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

9 MS. REGUE: Excuse me to interrupt, but I -- but maybe it will

10 assist if the Defence counsel can read the following three lines that may

11 assist also the witness to understand what Gezim Ostreni was meaning.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I believe that the other lines I

14 could read them, but I don't think they are related to my question,

15 because I asked the witness previously whether the hierarchy was strictly

16 observed as determined by the rank system. So it states further:

17 "Therefore in the NLA it was common when addressing a senior member to

18 address him with the functional position, like, for instance, brigade

19 commander rather than with the rank corresponding to this position."

20 So what follows is only an explanation of the way of addressing

21 and not the way of functioning. So I think that it is unnecessary.

22 A. No. It is not like you're reading it, sir. It says from the very

23 beginning the functional and disciplinary authority in the NLA. As I said

24 earlier, the 114th Brigade was established on 1st of July and by that

25 time, all the preparations were already made.

Page 5941

1 Q. Could you agree with me that actually the ranks in the NLA did not

2 really depict the actual position in the brigades, in terms of who has

3 seniority in them?

4 A. That's not correct. The ranks were assigned based on the military

5 formation and based on the hierarchy.

6 Q. Is it correct that although you were the so-called commander of

7 the 114th Brigade, it was actually Xhavit Hasani the one who said what is

8 to be done and he was the highest authority in your brigade?

9 A. This is not true. I was not a so-called commander. I was a

10 commander while Xhavit Hasani was the officer responsible for morale and

11 information. I was the person in charge of my brigade.

12 If we're talking about respect here, I was a well-respected

13 person, while personally I also had respect for Mr. Xhavit Hasani due to

14 his age and due to his experience in previous wars in Kosova and Presevo.

15 Q. But is it correct that the highest authority for the 114th Brigade

16 was precisely Xhavit Hasani?

17 A. What you're saying is not true, sir.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you. Is it correct that you issued orders for

19 terrorist actions to be performed in Skopje?

20 A. That's not true. And which terrorist action are you referring to

21 in Skopje?

22 Q. Is it correct that within your so-called brigade there was also

23 the sabotage unit of Lefta Goxhaj, aka Teli?

24 A. This was a unit, a reconnaissance sabotage unit, called Teli

25 within the framework of 114th Brigade.

Page 5942

1 Q. Is it then your evidence that this is a sabotage unit?

2 A. A reconnaissance sabotage unit.

3 Q. Lefter Goxhaj, Teli, was an Albanian from Albania. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And he came to Macedonia to fight for the change of constitutional

7 order in Macedonia, because that was the aim of your organisation. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. To your information, Lefter Goxhaj, aka Teli, was a soldier who

10 took part in three wars in Kosova, Presevo and Macedonia.

11 Q. So he was a professional soldier.

12 A. He was a soldier with great experience.

13 Q. But at any rate, he was a professional soldier, and he did not

14 come to Macedonia in order to overthrow the constitution.

15 A. He came to assist the war, and you have to be clear on one thing.

16 No one came and joined the NLA for money or for daily allowances, which

17 was the case with the Macedonian police.

18 Q. Is it correct that Teli was getting ready to carry out sabotage

19 actions in Skopje in order to kill civilian population and cause panic,

20 because he was an experienced soldier?

21 A. This is not true. Our reconnaissance sabotage unit was not there

22 to fight civilians but to fight directly the armed Macedonian forces,

23 police and army.

24 Q. And he did this by entering the centre of Skopje together with his

25 group on the 6th of August armed with weapons, bombs, explosives. Is that

Page 5943

1 correct?

2 A. Sir, he entered Skopje, he did not kill civilians on the 6th of

3 August when he entered Skopje. It was a reconnaissance sabotage unit and

4 we were ready for every option available to us in case the Ohrid Agreement

5 was not signed. To take up to plan B and that was to proclaim free

6 territories which were in the area of responsibility of the 114th Brigade.

7 Unfortunately, they were not caught in action. Teli and his

8 groups were sleeping in a house in Gazi Baba and the police, with a

9 special unit, went and killed them all.

10 You should know one thing: The house where these NLA soldiers

11 were killed, a civilian, a member of a certain family was taken from that

12 house and his whereabouts remain unknown. The police is the one who took

13 this civilian.

14 And, sir, you have to be held responsible for the very fact that

15 he has disappeared and cannot be found for six years now.

16 Q. Is it correct that your plan B, as you call it, was to plant mines

17 and explosives around the territory of Skopje?

18 A. It is not true. Plan B was to expand the territories in the area

19 of responsibility of 114th Brigade. As I mentioned in the beginning, the

20 operational area differed from the area of responsibility. Skopje was

21 part of the area of responsibility of the 114th Brigade, but the plan was

22 not to plant mines and to do whatever you're saying here.

23 Q. Is it correct that the group of Teli was also wearing uniforms, as

24 you gave evidence that all members of your brigade were wearing uniforms?

25 A. It is true that in the operational area each and every member of

Page 5944

1 the NLA wore a uniform.

2 Q. And according to your evidence of yesterday, they were not wearing

3 uniforms in the urban areas or in the settlements, because you testified

4 yesterday that Teli went to Skopje without wearing a uniform?

5 A. They did not wear uniforms on them but they had the uniforms.

6 They were carrying them with them. You know very well that they had the

7 uniforms, they had the weapons. They were not ordinary civilians walking

8 around Skopje. They were part of a reconnaissance sabotage unit.

9 Q. So your present evidence is that they were armed in Skopje but

10 without wearing uniforms. They had the uniforms with them but not wearing

11 them. They were -- the uniforms were hidden somewhere.

12 A. They were not armed in Skopje proper. They had the uniforms when

13 they set out from Nakustak. They had the uniforms with them as well.

14 However, the media -- when I saw them killed, I saw that they were not

15 wearing the uniforms.

16 Q. And you testified yesterday to my colleague Guenael that it would

17 be illogical to wear uniform when entering the city of Skopje or any other

18 settlement, that it would be illogical to enter there wearing uniforms.

19 Do you recall that?

20 A. I remember this and it is quite illogical, I abide by my previous

21 statement. I'm not saying that they changed their clothes on the street,

22 that they put on civilian uniforms -- dress, sorry, or uniforms.

23 Q. Also, you gave evidence just now that the group from Nikustak,

24 Teli's group came armed with weapons? Do you recall this? Is this

25 correct?

Page 5945

1 A. They set out armed and in uniforms. It is possible that they

2 changed their clothes on the way. I don't know whether they left the

3 weapons or they took them with them in Skopje. We were organised in a

4 totally different way from what you think, sir.

5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] The transcript of 5682 [as

6 interpreted] you stated that they set out with arms. I say this for the

7 purpose of the record.

8 Could the witness please be shown video-clip 5364, received in

9 evidence. The number has been noted wrongly. The transcript page is

10 5862, not as stated 5682.

11 This 5364, this is the video-clip 5364 received in evidence.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can we please stop the video

14 here.

15 Q. Do you recognise these persons?

16 A. I recognise the person lying on his stomach with a beard. It

17 should be Arben. I can't see the other two very well.

18 Q. Do you see that they're clothed in civilian clothing?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is this the group of Commander Teli?

21 A. Based on what I see here, Arben, yes.

22 Q. Is it correct that from Nikustak they did not set out dressed in

23 civilian clothing as you see them here when you saw them. Is this true?

24 A. Sir, I don't know if you refuse to understand or it is really not

25 clear to you. I already told you that they set out with uniforms. It is

Page 5946

1 possible that in Skopje they changed their clothes and put on civilian

2 clothes. This is what I already told you. I told you, as well, that they

3 had weapons with them. They had sniper, they had a Kalashnikov, they had

4 a hand-held mortar.

5 You should tell me one thing here. Where is the member of that

6 family in that house, that civilian who was not even a member of the NLA

7 who disappeared? He was just a civilian member of the family where these

8 persons were staying that night. You should give me an answer to this.

9 Q. Therefore, they came to a civilian house. They were staying in a

10 civilian house. Is this correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Did they go to Skopje on your order?

13 A. That I cannot say.

14 Q. Why is it that you cannot say?

15 A. It is a personal thing. Still there are certain things unclear

16 surrounding Commander Teli's death. I think that his death was a result

17 of a betrayal and there is an investigation still ongoing.

18 Q. Therefore, you do not want to tell me whether they started out

19 towards Skopje on your order. Is this correct?

20 A. I cannot tell you that.

21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the video -- can we please go

22 on with the video-clip.

23 Q. You say that the village of Ljuboten was not of interest to you.

24 Do you recall saying this?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 5947

1 Q. You explain this with the fact that the logistics of your

2 so-called brigade came from Aracinovo. Is this correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. You said that your brigade was established at the beginning of

5 July. Is this correct?

6 A. Yes. As a continuation of 113rd brigade.

7 Q. Is it correct that Aracinovo was under the control of the

8 Macedonian security forces from 26th of July, 2001?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 26th of June.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

11 Q. 2001.

12 A. It wasn't entirely under the control of the Macedonian forces. It

13 was a multi-ethnic police force at that time.

14 Q. Mr. Bushi, the case of the Defence is that Ljuboten was the most

15 important thing was where their logistics came from, from ONA over the

16 village [as interpreted]. There were members of the NLA in the village,

17 in uniform, black and camouflage uniforms but also in civilian clothes as

18 you saw them previously shown to you so that they may not be noticed by

19 the security forces by which they would support the most -- they would

20 lose the most important point of logistics. Is this correct?

21 A. That's not correct. I told you a day earlier, show me one soldier

22 who killed -- show me one single NLA soldier dressed in uniform who was

23 killed in Ljuboten. You know what you did. Two years ago you took an

24 amount of weapons to a house in Ljuboten and then you told the world that

25 this is what we found here. Whilst you conducted the search you didn't

Page 5948

1 find anything.

2 Q. I just want you to -- to put it to you that even on the video-clip

3 you just saw previously that the people which I showed to you, although

4 members of your brigade, they were in civilian clothes not in uniforms.

5 But my question is: Was your brigade at the location of Matejce and

6 Lipkovo. Is this correct?

7 A. Sir, before I answer this question, I'll go back to the previous

8 one.

9 You should play on that video-clip because they had weapons with

10 them, where as Erxhan Aliu in Ljuboten did not have any weapons. All of

11 those people who were killed there, they didn't have any weapons; they had

12 something with them. But in the case of Gazi Baba, they had weapons and

13 if you play that video on, you will see the weapons. As far as the 114th

14 Brigade, we didn't have representatives in Likov; in Matejce, yes.

15 Q. Very well.

16 A. Shall we see the rest of the video?

17 Q. For your brigade, was in the area of Matejce --

18 A. Can we please see the rest of the video so that the Honoured

19 Judges can see what I'm saying?

20 Can -- can we see that, so that this Chamber can see that they had

21 weapons with them, whereas in Ljuboten, those who were killed, they did

22 not have any weapons with them. This is the comparison I'm trying to

23 make.

24 You are only showing those bits which are favourable to what you

25 want to say. Like you said, you brought here to court just the statements

Page 5949

1 from Solana and Dickenson.

2 Q. Can we continue, witness?

3 A. Can you do what I'm asking so that I know?

4 Q. Witness, can we continue?

5 A. Reply. Are you going to play the rest of the video involving

6 Teli? You are not giving an answer to what I'm saying. Will you continue

7 to play the rest of the video regarding Teli in Gazi Baba so that we can

8 see for ourselves that they had weapons. Otherwise, I won't reply.

9 Q. This video-clip has been received in evidence by this Court.

10 A. I am here --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bushi, will you please understand that your

12 role here is to assist the Chamber to try and find out what went on.

13 The process involves your being questioned by the Prosecution,

14 cross-examined by Defence counsel, and then you will be re-examined by the

15 Prosecution.

16 Now, if there are matters which are considered to be important to

17 the full understanding of what you're saying which do not emerge during

18 your cross-examination by Defence counsel, then Prosecution counsel can go

19 to those matters again and bring them out.

20 So you have made the point to Mr. Apostolski that a part of the

21 video which he has shown does not disclose that there were weapons. We

22 have in fact seen that full video earlier, before you came to give

23 evidence. We're seeing it again at the moment.

24 So I would suggest you listen to the questions an answer them, and

25 if it's thought to be important to the Prosecution, Ms. Regue will go over

Page 5950

1 that matter again in re-examination.

2 Do you understand?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much, Your

4 Honour. I'm ready to continue.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.

6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Your brigade was in the area of Matejce. Is this correct?

8 A. In Matejce and Manastir.

9 Q. Can you tell me in Lipkovo. Who was in Lipkovo?

10 A. In Lipkovo, it was the 113rd Brigade.

11 Q. Is it correct that one of the cultural monuments of -- one of the

12 cultural values of the Albanians is honesty and loyalty?

13 A. That's true.

14 Q. Is it correct that an Albanian would never break an oath given to

15 another?

16 A. That's how it should be, but to this day things have changed. It

17 should be that way.

18 Q. Is it correct that the woman is the pillar of the Albanian family

19 and is characterized by honesty?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it characteristic of the Albanian woman to tell the truth?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it -- if an Albanian woman were to say that the village of

24 Ljuboten is the logistics centre of the NLA, would you believe this woman?

25 A. I may or may not believe her. As I said earlier, it should be

Page 5951

1 that way, but today things have changed.

2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

3 the statement of Ismaili Tenzile, 65 ter 2D00-374, page 4, paragraph 15.

4 Q. Can you see this -- can you see the Macedonian version in front of

5 you, paragraph 15.

6 In her statement given to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal

7 on 3rd of October 2004, it is said: "I do not know whether somebody from

8 the village was a member of the NLA but as far as I know, the road

9 Kumanovo-Lipkovo was blocked and journalists that wanted to reach Lipkovo

10 walked through the mountains from Ljuboten. I have not seen anyone from

11 the NLA in the village."

12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the English page be switched.

13 Q. "As villagers we prepared the food for the NLA, but I personally

14 never saw any of them in the village. The volunteers from the village

15 were collecting logistics from the Ljuboten villagers and they transported

16 it to the mountains. For example, my brother-in-law, Xhemal Ismaili and

17 others took care of this, but I do not know their names. I was not very

18 much familiar with. This they transported food and other necessary things

19 to Lipkovo and Matejce."

20 Can you agree with me that Ms. Tenzile Ismaili from Ljuboten

21 speaks the truth?

22 A. Tenzile Ismaili is saying the truth when she says that there was

23 no NLA in Ljuboten. As far as the food for our soldiers, we had our own

24 kitchens.

25 Q. So, in the first two sentences she is lying, or rather, is telling

Page 5952

1 the truth and is lying -- and is not telling the truth in the other

2 sentences. Is this correct?

3 A. She is telling the truth about what she saw with her own eyes.

4 She said that she didn't see any NLA soldiers and the rest she said that

5 she'd heard about things.

6 Q. In concrete terms, she says that her brother-in-law Ismaili took

7 care of this and that they transported the food and other necessary things

8 on horses to Lipkovo.

9 She confirms the arguments of the Defence that Ljuboten was a

10 logistics centre for your brigade and also for the 113 Brigade which was

11 in Lipkovo as you just said. Is this correct?

12 A. Sir, I will say a few more things.

13 This is not correct. If that was correct, if there were such

14 things true, you would have had information from the secret services from

15 the Ministry of Interior. And I'm sure that you'd have captured those

16 people in Ljuboten. But there was no hostages in Ljuboten, no NLA

17 soldiers there.

18 You only quote statements. You do not deal with facts.

19 Q. Remember when you say that you were never in Ljuboten. You were

20 never in Ljuboten in that period of time, or at least this was your

21 testimony.

22 A. Yes, it's true I wasn't there. In 2001, I'm talking about.

23 Q. Therefore, you cannot testify about what happened in Ljuboten in

24 2001.

25 A. I said that if there was such a thing in Ljuboten, you would have

Page 5953

1 acted. Why didn't you capture an NLA soldier in uniform there? Or

2 weapons? You have not done this. You -- you had information but you

3 [Indiscernible] to do their own thing. This is illogical.

4 Q. Is it correct that after the army stopped your logistic channels

5 from Ljuboten, you decided, you reached a decision to threaten them by

6 planting mines and carrying out a terrorist act so that these roads may be

7 cleared up?

8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] For the purpose of the transcript

9 I would point out the testimony of Jurisic and Despodov.

10 A. You want me to answer this question, Your Honour?

11 JUDGE PARKER: Please.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not correct, what

13 Mr. Apostolski is saying. As far as the planting of the mine --

14 [Microphone not activated] The planting of the mine was a lack of --

15 [Microphone not activated] That is between the Ministry of Interior and

16 the Ministry of Defence.

17 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, it seems that.

18 JUDGE PARKER: This last answer, I'm afraid was not fully recorded

19 and it is not been fully interpreted. I wonder whether you would mind

20 repeating your answer, Mr. Bushi.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said what Mr. Apostolski is saying

22 is not correct. The planting of the mine may have been the result of a

23 lack of coordination between the Macedonian army and police when there was

24 a conflict between the Ministry of Interior and the Ministry of Defence,

25 and I have never issued any orders to plant any mines in Ljuboten or above

Page 5954

1 Ljuboten.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Sorry, Mr. Apostolski, yes.

3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, might this be a

4 good time for a break?

5 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will resume, then, at 1.00.

6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, do you recall that I asked you whether you had issued an

12 order to plant the mine at Ljubotenski Bacila?

13 A. Yes, I remember this question.

14 Q. You stated that you had issued orders for any actions that your

15 brigade carried out.

16 That is 5057, page 5637 of the transcript.

17 Do you recall this?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. You also stated that you received orders from the General Staff,

20 from Gezim Ostreni.

21 A. For things that were not clear to us, yes.

22 Q. Do you agree with me that the action of Teli in Skopje, the

23 reconnaissance action and information gathering action, was based on your

24 order?

25 A. As I already stated, I will not answer this question.

Page 5955

1 Q. You stated that you would not answer the question?

2 A. For the reasons that I mentioned earlier.

3 Q. I put it to that you that you had issued an order for Teli to

4 enter Skopje, since you had issued all orders at the level of your

5 brigade. Is that correct?

6 A. This is your opinion.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you.

8 Could you please tell me whether your brigade had under its

9 control any railway station?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did it have under its control any highway?

12 A. No, it didn't.

13 Q. Did it have any city under its control?

14 A. No, it didn't.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you.

16 In your evidence, you mentioned several times that the Macedonian

17 forces have carried out at least two massacres of Albanian civilians. In

18 your opinion, that was an alleged massacre against a father and a son in

19 Tetovo and the alleged massacre in the village of Ljuboten.

20 Page 5793, 5796, 5849 of the transcript.

21 Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is correct. But I said they killed them and that it was a

23 massacre.

24 Q. You told us that the father and the son were killed although they

25 were unarmed and were not wearing uniforms.

Page 5956

1 In yesterday's transcript, page 5849, line 22.

2 Do you stay with this statement?

3 A. I agree. And this is the truth, this is a fact.

4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

5 65 ter 2D379.

6 Q. Is this one of those photographs?

7 A. Yes, this is the photograph of the event in Kosova --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, Tetovo.

9 A. -- where the son and the father were killed just in front of the

10 stadium.

11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, I put it to that you willingly give false evidence before

13 this Court in order to blacken the security forces and save the face of

14 the NLA members to present them as civilians. You are saying -- doing

15 this in both relation to the Tetovo case as well as the Ljuboten case.

16 I will now show you other images from this event.

17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

18 65 ter photograph 2D376.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I answer this

20 question before we go to the next picture?

21 JUDGE PARKER: It's fair enough, Mr. Apostolski. You made a big

22 assertion and then have not allowed the witness to comment on it.

23 So, yes, Mr. Bushi.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, if we can go back to the

25 first picture, the one before this one.

Page 5957

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

2 the photograph 65 ter 2D379.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, with full responsibility, I'm

4 stating this because not only myself but the entire world, the entire

5 Albanian people, and whoever followed the media at that time were clear on

6 one thing, that the father and the son had no weapons with them and no

7 uniforms on them.

8 Secondly, I'm here to tell the truth before this Tribunal, and to

9 tell you that a crime was committed against the villagers of Ljuboten.

10 What we see on this photograph is just one of examples of what happened

11 there. On 9th of June in the house of Metush Ajeti, he was taken from his

12 own house to the police station and his body was later on disposed.

13 Where are the other persons who were stopped at check-points?

14 Where were they taken to? This is not a false evidence that I'm giving.

15 This is the truth and it is supported by facts.

16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I will show you now other photographs from this event.

18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 65 ter

19 photograph 2D376. These are photographs taken by BBC.

20 Q. Is this the same event?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we then show the next

23 photograph, 2D377.

24 Q. Witness, do you see the person on the left-hand side wearing

25 civilian clothes?

Page 5958

1 A. Yes, I can.

2 Q. And do you see what that person does and what is the person

3 holding in his hand?

4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in, please.

5 A. I can see that he is holding something in the hand, in his hand,

6 but I don't know what it is exactly.

7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in on the

8 person on the left-hand side.

9 Q. Can you see it now?

10 A. I can't see it clearly. I see that he is holding something, but I

11 can't see what.

12 Please help me if you can see it clearly. If you know clearly

13 what it is.

14 Q. Does it maybe resemble a bomb?

15 A. No, I wouldn't say that. Had it been a bomb it would have

16 exploded. Because at the moment when it was supposed to be thrown, it

17 should have been activated and it would have been -- it would exploded,

18 but this is not happening.

19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom out on the

20 photograph so that we see the entire photograph.

21 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreters kindly ask counsel and

22 witness to avoid overlapping for the sake of translation.

23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Witness, can you see now that the uniformed persons are running

25 away from that person?

Page 5959

1 A. Yes. And this was not the first time for them to run away. They

2 always ran away.

3 Q. So if it had been a bomb, would they be running away?

4 A. I don't know what you mean. If this is a bomb, it would have

5 exploded while he is holding in it in the hand.

6 Q. And if he throws the bomb it can explode.

7 A. Yes. Both if he throws it or if he doesn't.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask once again for the

9 counsel and witness to wait for the interpretation to finish.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we seek to

11 tender this photograph in evidence.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

13 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, I will --

14 JUDGE PARKER: Could you just wait a moment, please.

15 Ms. Regue.

16 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honours. I will ask, actually, the

17 relevance of this photo, this particular photo to the Defence.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.

19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] The relevance goes towards

20 discrediting this witness.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

22 MS. REGUE: Well, this is a Prosecution submission that is quite a

23 broad statement that my learned colleague has made. Discrediting this

24 witness in regards with which particular issue and based on one photo that

25 we are speculating what he had in his hand or not.

Page 5960

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D49, Your Honours.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to say

4 something about what this person is holding in his hand and what the

5 lawyer asked me.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE PARKER: Please go ahead.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, if this was a bomb, it was

9 activated and it would have exploded because it is only for four our five

10 seconds between the moment of activation and explosion. So it would have

11 exploded whether it was thrown or still in his hand. So that's why I

12 don't think it is a bomb.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

15 a video-clip of the event secured from the Prosecutor, VOOO-6742-1-A. It

16 starts with 58:59 and it goes until 59:19.

17 So could we please play the video.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Even after the ultimatum, the

20 terrorists did not give up on their intentions --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have lost the sound.

22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] You can stop here.

23 Could we please rewind it a bit.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

Page 5961

1 Q. Could you see what this is in front of you?

2 A. Yes, I can.

3 Q. Could you confirm that this is a bomb, a hand-grenade?

4 A. It does not look like a hand-grenade to me and does not

5 necessarily mean that this object is the same with the object that the

6 person was holding in his hand. You can rewind the clip once again. And

7 my question is, if it was a hand-grenade, why didn't it explode?

8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we please see 65 ter 2D382.

9 That is a analysis of the event produced by the BBC and the title is "Dual

10 Vision in Macedonia."

11 THE INTERPRETER: "Double vision," interpreter's correction.

12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] And the subtitle is people have

13 different views on the death of the two ethnic Albanians.

14 Could we see the second page of it, please. At the bottom of that

15 page it says: "For the Macedonians, the two Albanians were terrorists who

16 tried to kill their soldiers and deserved to be shot. But the word in the

17 Albanian cafes was that it was not a hand-grenade but a mobile phone."

18 And further on page 3 it states --

19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we please turn to page 3.

20 "In a man's hand that caused him to be killed.

21 And it says further on: "The images were very poor." It is

22 further down under the subtitle, "sensitive issue."

23 "The pictures were poor and you couldn't make out the objects in

24 the man's hands. A soldier looked as though he was executing the two men.

25 It looked bad, very bad. Knowing the sensitivity of the issue, I went to

Page 5962

1 a BBC office and looked at the television footage of the shooting on a BBC

2 monitor in at an extremely slow motion. This time the picture was clear.

3 The Albanians had hand-grenades. They did throw them at the Macedonians

4 who shot them, not in cold blood but in a frenzy of fear because they were

5 under attack.

6 "The British army would have done the same in Northern Ireland."

7 Q. Is it correct, Witness, that the civilians with hand-grenades

8 attacked the Macedonian security forces?

9 A. The truth is that they had no hand-grenades and they did not carry

10 out an attack of that nature.

11 Sir, if they had a hand-grenade that would have gone off and you

12 would have seen it in the clip.

13 Q. And if it were some other object, would the security forces who

14 were armed with automatic rifles would they be running away from them?

15 A. This I don't know. You should know better.

16 Q. Wouldn't it be logical if they're attacked with a hand-grenade,

17 they would be running away, the security forces?

18 A. Well, wouldn't it be logical for this hand-grenade to go off, to

19 explode?

20 Q. And otherwise the Prosecution witness Franz Hutch spoke about this

21 at the page 2150 on the transcript of July 2007 and it says in it: "You

22 must be aware that in Tetovo in March 2001, there has been an incident

23 when the two NLA members were crossing a police check-points when they

24 were stopped and they starting throwing hand-grenades at the police."

25 So do you still maintain after all this, before this Chamber that

Page 5963

1 this is a massacre similar to the one in Ljuboten?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

4 show the video-clip -- could we seek to tender the video-clip that we had

5 seen in evidence, VOOO-6742-A, 58:59 to 59:19.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the number.

7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] And it was secured through the

8 Prosecutor's office.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the counsel to

10 repeat the numbers.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Could you repeat the number please, Mr. Apostolski.

12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, VOOO-6742-1-A, 58:59 to

13 59:19.

14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D50, Your Honours.

16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we also

17 tender the BBC article, analysis of the event 65 ter 2D382. Can we seek

18 to tender it into evidence.

19 JUDGE PARKER: On what basis do you see a BBC investigation going

20 to be helpful to us, Mr. Apostolski?

21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was thinking

22 whether to tender this into evidence, but I do believe that it is in

23 accordance with the event and to the fact that the argument of the Defence

24 was that members of the NLA were dressed in civilian clothes when they

25 were entering towns, and also an argument of our Defence is that civilian

Page 5964

1 members of the NLA were in the village of Ljuboten.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

4 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, I think that the relevant part of this

5 article have already been read in the transcript. And what has been read

6 actually it is not stated clearly whether these two people were actually

7 NLA members dressed in civilian clothings, at least from the text of the

8 article.

9 As I mentioned, it has already been read in the transcript.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D51, Your Honours.

13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You said that it was obligatory for members of the NLA to use

15 uniforms and that this uniform was issued upon membership or joining the

16 NLA. Do you recall saying this? Is this correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The case of the Defence is that the NLA used civilian clothes as a

19 tactics in order to carry out successfully attacks and then to run away

20 and mix among the civilian population. They were not an army at all,

21 rather, terrorists which had several uniforms from UCK from Kosovo to

22 which they adhered the emblems of the NLA in Macedonia. Do you agree with

23 this?

24 A. I don't agree with you, sir. According to you, was there any NLA

25 in Manastir? Why did you deport the civilians? Why did you burn down

Page 5965

1 the mosque there?

2 Q. The case of the Defence that members of the NLA were also children

3 below the age of 14 and people above the age of 65. Do you agree with

4 this?

5 A. I don't agree, sir. You're trying to reason for the killing of

6 the seven-year-old and nobody will believe you about that -- Aliu, the

7 name of the child [as interpreted].

8 Q. Is it correct that the UCK in Kosovo and Macedonia used similar

9 emblems and abbreviations?

10 A. The -- in Macedonia we had the National Liberation Army, whereas

11 in Kosova they had the KLA and the emblems were different. We had the

12 red-and-black emblem here.

13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

14 picture 65 ter number 2D00-204.

15 Q. Is this the emblem of the NLA in Macedonia?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

18 picture 65 ter number 2D00-217 without closing this picture, so that we

19 can compare the two.

20 Q. Is this the emblem of the UCK of the KLA in Kosovo, the yellow and

21 red in colour, and black.

22 A. I said it earlier, yes.

23 Q. Would you agree that the emblems are the same, the abbreviation is

24 the same, the form is the same, the differences are in colour and the form

25 of the letters, black in one, yellow in the other and one says Kosovo

Page 5966

1 Liberation Army and the other says National Liberation Army?

2 A. The difference is in the colour and in ours it says the National

3 Liberation Army and in the Kosovo case, it's the Kosovo Liberation Army.

4 Q. Therefore, you would agree with me on this, that this is correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell me why these two are so similar?

7 A. They are similar because both of them were armies, and there is --

8 the red of the flag, and the eagle is part of the national flag. And I

9 said earlier, it's the same flag in Albania, Macedonia and in eastern

10 Kosovo, and Kosovo itself, and in Montenegro. The Albanians have one

11 flag.

12 Q. Do you believe that without logistics from Kosovo and from UCK

13 from Kosovo and the Kosovo Protection Corps, that it would be possible to

14 carry out successful terrorist attacks in Macedonia?

15 A. That's not correct. We had logistical support from Kosova and we

16 had moral support from people who fought in the KLA and they supported the

17 NLA and the same happened in Kosova. There were Macedonians who helped

18 out with the war in Kosovo.

19 Q. This means -- this means that the UCK from Kosovo gave you support

20 to realise your goals by logistics for the constitutional -- for taking

21 down the constitutional order of the Republic of Macedonia which you said

22 were the goals of your organisations.

23 A. At that time, there was only the Kosovo Liberation Army and I did

24 not say that they have given direct support. They have helped out, and

25 they were members of the National Liberation Army.

Page 5967

1 Q. Can you confirm that these emblems were given to members of the

2 UCK at the beginning of 2001 and that prior to this there were no members

3 from the UCK from Kosovo with emblems such as these? This is the emblem

4 on the left side, which is the emblem of the UCK in Macedonia.

5 A. That's not correct that it came from there. This is the insignia

6 of the National Liberation Army in Macedonia.

7 Q. Very well. Thank you.

8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we seek to tender

9 this exhibit into evidence.

10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE PARKER: Are you -- I assume you're wanting both,

13 Mr. Apostolski.

14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Both

15 photographs the one on the left and the one on the right, with the aim of

16 identifying them both.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I think we need to receive them separately Mr.

18 Apostolski. They will each be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 2D204 will become Exhibit 2D52. 65 ter

20 2D217 will become Exhibit 2D53, Your Honours.

21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, is it time,

22 perhaps, for a break?

23 JUDGE PARKER: It is time for the day to end, Mr. Apostolski.

24 We continue tomorrow at 9.00.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

Page 5968

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day of

2 October, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.