Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6777

1 Thursday, 25 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good afternoon.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Judge Parker is unable to sit today, so

9 pursuant to the Rules Judge Thelin and I will sit alone.

10 Good afternoon, sir. Will you please read the affirmation on the

11 card that is in front of you. Can you read what is on the card in front

12 of you, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much. You may sit down.

16 And I think Mr. Saxon is going to ask you some questions.

17 MR. SAXON: Actually, Your Honour, this witness will be led by my

18 colleague, Mr. Dobbyn.

19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: So it will be Mr. Dobbyn.

20 Please go ahead.

21 MR. DOBBYN: Good afternoon Your Honours for the record the

22 witness is calling Witness M-085, Miodrag Stojanovski.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examination by Mr. Dobbyn:

Page 6778

1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Stojanovski.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, are you an ethnic Macedonian?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in 2001 were you an active police officer in Macedonia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you still a member of the Macedonian police today?

8 A. Yes, I am.

9 Q. Can you tell the Court how long you have been a Macedonian police

10 officer for?

11 A. 29 years.

12 Q. And what position do you hold now?

13 A. I am a police administrator.

14 Q. I'd like to go back to 2001 and ask you some questions about that

15 time-period.

16 Now as a police officer during 2001 were you assigned to the

17 police station for external physical security of buildings which was

18 formerly known as PSOLO?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. And in 2001 what was your position at that station?

21 A. I was police administrator.

22 Q. And can you recall in 2001 what your duties were as a

23 administrator at that station?

24 A. Preparation of lists, maintaining records, and keeping maintenance

25 of the warehouses.

Page 6779

1 Q. And what sort of things were contained in the warehouses that you

2 maintained?

3 A. Weapons and ammunition.

4 Q. And in 2001 were you the only person at PSOLO who dealt with the

5 issuance of weapons and other equipment to police officers?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you recall if in 2001 you actually did issue weapons and

8 equipment to reservist police officers?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And can you recall if during 2001, and continuing into 2003, there

11 was a increased numbering of reservists were activated and issued with

12 weapons when compared with prior years?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can you recall if the equipment that was issued to reservists

15 from PSOLO was different from that that was issued to active police

16 officers?

17 A. No, the equipment was the same, the clothing, I mean.

18 Q. Okay. Well, if we can take this perhaps a step at a time.

19 What was the type of equipment that was issued to police

20 reservists?

21 A. Camouflage uniforms.

22 Q. Where any weapons issued to police reservists?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you recall if, in 2001, there was a record-keeping procedure

25 of some sort with respect to the weapons and equipment issued to reservist

Page 6780

1 police officers?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And how exactly did you keep record of what was issued?

4 A. We maintained a list on forms that have been prescribed for this

5 purpose.

6 Q. Okay. I'd like to ask you now about June 2001.

7 Do you recall at that time there being a special unit of the

8 Ministry of Interior called the Lions?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I showed you a statement

11 that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 7th of August, 2004?

12 A. I don't understand what you're trying to ask me. Can you clarify

13 this, please.

14 Q. Okay. I asked you whether you could recall there being a special

15 unit named the Lions and your response was no. I'm asking, in light of

16 that, whether it would refresh your recollection to look at a earlier

17 statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor.

18 A. About the Lions, I started working since November when they were

19 established.

20 Q. And just to clarify your answer, you started working since

21 November of what year?

22 A. 2001.

23 Q. And at what time, to your knowledge, were the Lions formed?

24 A. November or December, and there was a law for the establishment

25 and this is when Goran Stojkov called me in order for me to maintain

Page 6781

1 the -- the payment -- the payroll.

2 Q. So do you recall any groups of volunteers who you believe to be

3 from the Lions unit coming to PSOLO for weapons after 20th of June, 2001

4 and through July 2001?

5 A. Yes. Volunteers came, but they were not from the Lions. Those

6 were volunteers.

7 Q. Was it your belief at that time that they were from the Lions?

8 A. At that time, nobody even mentioned the word "Lions."

9 MR. DOBBYN: And, Your Honours, just at this point, sorry I didn't

10 do this earlier, but I do have binders for this witness of exhibits that

11 we should distribute at this time.

12 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, I'd like to draw your attention now to July of

13 2001 and specifically to the date of 25th of July, 2001. Do you recall if

14 you were on duty that day at the police station PSOLO?

15 A. If it was a working day, then I was on duty.

16 Q. Would it refresh your recollection, would you be able to make

17 yourself certain in you were shown the statement that you gave to the

18 Office of the Prosecutor in 2004?

19 A. There is no problem. I can see the statement.

20 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, we have hard copies of Mr. Stojanovski's

21 statement to distribute. It has also been uploaded into e-court, I

22 believe. But if those copies could be shown to Mr. Stojanovski.

23 Q. Mr. Stojanovski --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- do you recall giving this statement to the Office of the

Page 6782

1 Prosecutor on the 7th of August, 2004?

2 A. I spoke to Mr. Thomas. We only had a conversation, because at

3 the very beginning I can see here that I am here voluntarily to give a

4 statement. However, I was ordered by the MOI to go there. It was not

5 voluntarily. And Mr. Thomas told me that we will only have a conversation

6 and this is going to be left at it, and I did not agree for this to be

7 distributed to anybody else.

8 When he asked me to sign the statement, I asked for the statement

9 to be prepared in Macedonian language. However, he insisted that I should

10 signed statement in English so that, first of all, the interpreter was

11 reading it and we had a long conversation, because he told me that he

12 spoke the Serbo-Croat language. Well, we had a mutual conversation and

13 female interpreter was interpreting. At the end when she started reading

14 the statement, there were many mistakes and he started correcting these

15 mistakes on the computer.

16 After we finished, it was around in the evening, around 8.00 or

17 9.00. I was kept there for the whole day and he asked me to sign the

18 statement. I asked for a statement in Macedonian language to read it and

19 to see what it was written down. For the second time, the statement was

20 not read to me, and I told him, since they insist, and I was there present

21 during the conversation upon the MOI order, and I told him that I will

22 sign the statement but I do not recognise this statement because it was

23 not made in Macedonian.

24 Q. Well, if I can ask you, Mr. Stojanovski --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Can you please switch on the microphone.

Page 6783

1 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry.

2 Q. If I can ask you, Mr. Stojanovski, do you see your signature at

3 the bottom of the first page and at the bottom of each page therefore?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. And if you can look at page 7. Do you see a heading in English

6 which says, "Witness acknowledgment"?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. And perhaps if I follow this in the Macedonian version which is on

9 page 9, do you see where it says: "This statement has been read over to

10 me in the Macedonian language and is true to the best of my knowledge and

11 recollection."

12 Do you see that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. And do you see your signature underneath that dated 7th of August,

15 2004?

16 A. Very well.

17 MR. DOBBYN: Now, Your Honours, I wonder if we could show through

18 e-court copies of the statements in Macedonian and English.

19 And in particular, I would like to go to paragraph 16, which is on

20 page 4 of the English version and also page 4 of the Macedonian version.

21 Q. And if you can just look at the first line of paragraph 16,

22 Mr. Stojanovski. Do you see where it says: "On 25 July 2001 the Kometa

23 people came with Johan Tarculovski to PSOLO."

24 Do you see that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 6784

1 Q. So does this refresh your recollection as to whether you were

2 working on the 25th of July, 2001?

3 A. Yes, I was working.

4 Q. And do you recall if some persons came to PSOLO for weapons and

5 equipment on that day?

6 A. Yes, some people came over.

7 Q. And do you recall who those people were?

8 A. Those people were, as they told us, they were in police of Kometa.

9 Q. And did you recognise any particular individuals with that group?

10 A. Only Goce Ralevski. I think I recognised Goce Ralevski. But I

11 didn't know whether he works in Kometa. I knew him from before.

12 Q. And where do you know him from?

13 A. His brother used to work with me as a commander for the security

14 of the parliament. So through his brother I was -- I knew him.

15 Q. And do you recall if Johan Tarculovski was present at PSOLO on the

16 25th of July, 2001?

17 A. Johan Tarculovski, I saw him only in the yard of the police

18 station underneath the tree, how he was standing there.

19 Q. And do you recall how this group of people, how you learned that

20 this group of people were from Kometa?

21 A. From themselves.

22 Q. And do you recall exactly what sort of organisation or group

23 Kometa was?

24 A. Can you clarify what you really mean?

25 Q. For example, do you know if Kometa was a social group, was it a

Page 6785

1 business of some sort? Do you know what business, if any, they had?

2 A. It was a security agency.

3 Q. And do you recall who the head of Kometa was in 2001?

4 A. According to what they were saying, a person called Zoran was in

5 charge.

6 Q. And do you recall if this person named Zoran was present at PSOLO

7 on either 25th of July or 26th of July, 2001?

8 A. He was present there with them.

9 Q. And do you know or do you recall Zoran's last name?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. At this time are you able to recall how many Kometa people came to

12 the station to receive weapons and equipment on 25 July 2001?

13 A. I am not aware of the correct number. They were outside in the

14 yard, and this is where they were waiting.

15 Q. If we could just take a step back for a moment. The head of

16 Kometa we had been talking about, the person named Zoran, do you recall

17 whether he had a nickname at all?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. Do you recall distributing weapons and equipment to the members of

20 Kometa who came to PSOLO on 25 July 2001?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 MR. DOBBYN: At this time I would like to show the witness a

23 document. It has been marked for identification as P00436. And it is

24 also in tab 2 of today's binder.

25 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, do you see the document that is on the screen

Page 6786

1 before you and is also at tab 2 of the binder in front of you?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. And can you tell -- tell us what this document is?

4 A. This is a list of issued weapons and equipment.

5 Q. And do you recall if you were the person who developed this form,

6 the form used for this list?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And do you recall using the same type of forms to document

9 distribution of weapons to members of the Lions unit?

10 A. First, we issued equipment to the volunteers, and later on the

11 Lions. For the Lions, the weapons was distributed in Idrizovo.

12 Q. Now if you could look at the list you will see there are numbers

13 next to the name of each person.

14 MR. DOBBYN: And if we could go to the last page of the document

15 in each language.

16 Q. You'll see, Mr. Stojanovski, that it is numbered up to 84. Do you

17 recall if all --

18 A. Very well.

19 Q. Do you recall if all 84 of the people listed on this list received

20 weapons at PSOLO?

21 A. No, not all of them were issued.

22 Q. Would I be correct in interpreting this to say that those with

23 numbers and entries next to their names are the ones who did receive

24 weapons?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6787

1 Q. Now, do you recall, Mr. Stojanovski, who ordered the distribution

2 of these weapons and equipment to the Kometa members?

3 A. My superior, Georgi Mitrev.

4 Q. And can you recall if back in 2001, after receiving a order to

5 distribute weapons and equipment to a person, whether you would ask that

6 person for ID?

7 A. Yes, I would.

8 Q. And what would you do after receiving a form of identification

9 from each person?

10 A. I issued them weapons.

11 Q. Would you make a note of their identification anywhere?

12 A. This was done by my colleague, Sarenkovski Vojko, who assisted me

13 when we were handing out the weapons.

14 Q. Do you recall if -- sorry. Do you recall how on the 25th of July,

15 2001 you determined which particular individuals were to be issued with

16 weapons and equipment?

17 A. I did not decide for this. This would be something that would be

18 ordered by my superior.

19 Q. So the list that you have in front of you and the list that is on

20 the screen, who decided which names should go on to this list?

21 A. How do you mean, which names would appear on the list?

22 Q. Well, as you see, there's a list here with 84 names on it. How

23 did those names come to be on this list? Where did these names come from?

24 A. They came around lunch-time and they were waiting in the yard of

25 the station. Around 3.00, 4.00 p.m., one of the employees in Kometa had a

Page 6788

1 list of the employees, and he offered this list to me, so if this list is

2 approved, then this would be the list included in my own list and that is

3 why we had this large number of people. This doesn't mean that all of

4 them were present there.

5 Q. Okay. And if we look at the list there are some names with blank

6 spaces next to them. Do you recall why these people were not issued with

7 weapons and equipment?

8 A. Because they did not appear at all to be issued with weapons.

9 Q. And if we could turn to the first page of the document, please.

10 Looking at the Macedonian version, Mr. Stojanovski, do you see

11 your signature on that front page?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And is that your handwriting which says, "I hereby confirm that I

14 personally compiled this list pursuant to a list that the Kometa employees

15 gave me before --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Just to finish it, I'll complete. It says: "Before I started

18 issuing them with weapons." And your answer to that was yes, I

19 understand.

20 Mr. Stojanovski, do you recall how long it took to you distribute

21 these weapons and equipment to the Kometa members?

22 A. In the evening, around 9.00 or 9.30, so 2130 or 2200 hours and

23 then after that we broke up because it was late and then we told the

24 others that they should come the next day.

25 Q. And did the others return the next day?

Page 6789

1 A. Yes, yes, the following day I continued issuing weapons.

2 Q. And do you recall ever handing out weapons to any other security

3 companies at any time before this?

4 A. Not companies. Not in a group fashion to companies.

5 Q. So this was the first time you had handed out weapons to a

6 security company?

7 A. They came as volunteers.

8 Q. My question was: Is this the first time that you had handed out

9 weapons to members of a security company as a group.

10 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And can you recall if you issued temporary identification cards to

12 the Kometa members that you provided equipment to?

13 A. I did not issue cards and issuing of cards was not my competence.

14 Q. Do you know if they were issued by anyone else at PSOLO on that

15 date?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Can you recall if you issued temporary or anyone at PSOLO issued

18 temporary identification cards to any reserve personnel that you armed at

19 around this time, July 2001?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And just to clarify, does that mean no, no identification cards

22 were issued; or no, you cannot recall?

23 A. I did not issue and I don't know if anyone else issued them.

24 Q. Can you recall if there came a time when reserve personnel who

25 received equipment did start to be issued with temporary identification

Page 6790

1 cards?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And do you recall when that was?

4 A. No. An order for that, we received from the defence preparations,

5 but I can't tell you when.

6 MR. DOBBYN: Well, if we could perhaps return to the witness

7 statement of Mr. Stojanovski. I'd like to go to paragraph 29, which is on

8 page 6 of the English version and also page 6 of the Macedonian.

9 And if we could just perhaps focus in on paragraph 29 of each.

10 And it says there: "Generally, I did not issue any receipts to the

11 volunteers for the weapons they were handed out. Being asked for

12 temporary ID cards issued to reserve personnel, I say that at the time the

13 Kometa people were armed, we didn't issue any temporary ID cards. Only in

14 fall of 2001 we started to issue temporary police ID cards but only to

15 regular police reservists."

16 So, Mr. Stojanovski, does this refresh your recollection as to

17 when temporary ID cards came to be issued?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And was that in the fall of 2001?

20 A. It might have been in the fall. We had received a memo about this

21 from the defence. You can check this and verify. And I was misunderstood

22 here. It should not be "we started," but "It has started." It was not us

23 who started issuing because I'm not in charge of this and I never issued

24 those. This is written here incorrectly. Maybe I was misunderstood by

25 Mr. Thomas.

Page 6791

1 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. But do I take it that it was your

2 understanding that the issuing of identification cards started later in

3 2001 than on the 25th of July?

4 A. No, no, it was later and it was ordered by, I think it was some of

5 the foreign representatives who urged for this and then the defence --

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter thinks it is Defence

7 Preparation.

8 A. -- unit started issuing cards.


10 Q. I'd like now to ask a couple of questions specifically about the

11 25th and 26th of July, 2001.

12 Do you recall what type of weapons you distributed to the Kometa

13 employees at that time?

14 A. Automatic rifles, as to any other volunteers.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. DOBBYN: And could we please pull up P00436 again.

17 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, if you look at the second column you will see

18 that it is headed: Automatic rifle. What do the letters and numbers

19 entered into that column indicate?

20 A. Which column do you refer to?

21 Q. Do you see the second column in the table? Again, this is if

22 you're looking on the hard copy it's under number 2, Mr. Stojanovski.

23 A. Where it is written automatic rifle?

24 Q. Yes. That's correct.

25 A. That was the number of the rifle.

Page 6792

1 Q. Thank you. Was any ammunition issued to the members of Kometa who

2 came on 25 and 26 July?

3 A. Yes. Yes, 120 bullets each.

4 Q. And do you recall if you distributed any other equipment to the

5 Kometa employees?

6 A. Camouflage uniform.

7 Q. Do you recall if all of these uniforms that you issued to the

8 Kometa employees were exactly the same?

9 A. They had the same tailoring, while the shade might have differed,

10 depending on the fabric used, but they looked the same.

11 Q. And can you recall if the uniforms had any police insignia on

12 them?

13 A. Yes. On the sleeves.

14 Q. And can you describe the insignia that was on the sleeves of the

15 uniforms?

16 A. On the one side, it is written "Police," and on the other it is

17 the patch. Again, on the other there is the narrow patch and on the other

18 side there is the wide patch.

19 Q. And were these patches on all of the uniforms that you issued on

20 25 and 26 July?

21 A. Yes, yes, on all uniforms.

22 Q. And, Mr. Stojanovski, are you familiar with the piece of equipment

23 known as a Zolja?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Have you -- do you recall if you've ever heard what a Zolja is?

Page 6793

1 A. I have never issued. Well, the name, yes, I have heard the name.

2 Just the name.

3 Q. And so is my understanding correct that you never issued Zoljas to

4 any of the members from Kometa?

5 A. I could not have issued because there were no such weapons in my

6 warehouse, and I don't know what it looks like.

7 Q. Do you recall if there were any other locations within the

8 Ministry of Interior from where people may have been able to obtain

9 Zoljas?

10 A. I don't know. From the warehouse of the Ministry of the Interior,

11 if the officer in charge there issued them.

12 Q. Do you recall if the Lions unit had stores of Zoljas?

13 A. At the time when Kometa was issued with weapons, since the unit

14 Lions did not exist, I was the only one issuing volunteers with weapons,

15 so the unit Lions, there was no other warehouse, they could not have

16 issued weapons.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MR. DOBBYN: I'd like to look at some of the names on the list of

19 people who received weapons now.

20 If we could please look at number 21 on the list. On the English

21 this is page 4; in the Macedonian, it's on page 1.

22 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, next to number 21 do you see the name

23 Zoran Jovanovski?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recognise this name?

Page 6794

1 A. No.

2 Q. You testified earlier that you knew the leader of Kometa to be a

3 person named Zoran. Do you have any idea if this is the same person?

4 A. No. From the conversation with him, I heard that the person is

5 charged with Zoran, but I don't know his last name.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction in line 17/14 instead

7 "If the officer had issued them," "If the officer had them in stock."

8 It refers to the Zoljas.


10 Q. From looking at the list can you tell what equipment, if any, you

11 issued to this person called Zoran Jovanovski?

12 A. I have issued only automatic rifles and camouflage uniforms,

13 nothing more to anyone else.

14 Q. And was any ammunition issued also?

15 A. Yes, ammunition. Automatic rifles, ammunition and camouflage

16 uniforms.

17 MR. DOBBYN: If we could look now at the next name on the list, at

18 number 22. Do you see the name Vlado Janev?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recognise this name?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know anyone who goes by the nickname Kunta?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. And from looking at the list, can we see that Vlado Janev was also

25 issued with a weapon, ammunition, camouflage uniform and boots; is that

Page 6795

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.

3 Q. And if we could look at the next name now, number 23,

4 Aleksandar Janevski. Do you see that name?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you recognise that name?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know who goes by the nickname Vlatko?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And can he see that Aleksandar Janevski was also issued with

11 weapons and equipment?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. DOBBYN: If we could now move to number 30 which is on page 5

14 of the English version and page 2 of the Macedonian?

15 Q. At number 30, do you see the name Trajce Kuzmanovski?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recognise this name?

18 A. No.

19 Q. But this person was also issued with weapons and equipment; is

20 that right?

21 A. That is correct.

22 MR. DOBBYN: If we could move on to page 9 in the English version;

23 page 3 of the Macedonian.

24 Q. Do you see the name next to the number 54, Goce Ralevski?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6796

1 Q. And do you recall testifying earlier that this was someone that

2 you knew?

3 A. Yes, I know him personally.

4 Q. And was it your -- you also testified that it was your

5 understanding that all the people on the list were members of Kometa; is

6 that right?

7 A. This is what I was told by them.

8 Q. And we can see also that he was issued with a weapon and

9 ammunition; is that correct?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. If you look at the -- the entries on the same page for number 51,

12 Beni Popevski; number 55, Marjan Stevkovski; and number 56,

13 Ljupco Sivakov. Do you see those names?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And can you see that it appears that their equipment was all

16 returned by a person by the name of Goce or Goce R. Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And if we could go back to page 4 of the English and page 1 of the

19 Macedonian, please.

20 And if you look at the entries for the people we discussed

21 earlier, Zoran Jovanovski, Vlado Janev and Aleksandar Janevski, do you see

22 also that their weapons and equipment was all returned by someone by the

23 name of Goce, or Goce R?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you have -- sorry. Do you know why this person appeared to be

Page 6797

1 responsible for returning so many weapons?

2 A. When they started returning the equipment, since I knew Goce and I

3 phoned him, that he needed to return the equipment, he said, "If people

4 come there personally, good, and if not, I will return the equipment to

5 you. I will take it from everyone and return it to you." So Goce brought

6 the weapons to me.

7 Q. So Goce was a person who would be able to retrieve all of the

8 weapons from the Kometa members; is that correct?

9 A. He could have sent them to come, and probably he was able to take

10 it from them, because he did bring everything to me, so that I had the

11 equipment I issued.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, at this time I would seek to tender the

14 document marked for identification as P00436.

15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Under the same number but as Exhibit P436,

17 Your Honours.

18 MR. DOBBYN: Just one moment, Your Honours.

19 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, do you recall if you were ever interviewed in

20 relation to the investigation into the events in Ljuboten?

21 A. Whom are you referring at precisely? I was interviewed by

22 Mr. Thomas only.

23 Q. Do you recall if you were ever interviewed by any of the

24 Macedonian authorities?

25 A. When I took this list, when I was invited to the MOI, there was

Page 6798

1 some committee there.

2 Q. Okay.

3 MR. DOBBYN: At this time could we please show a report. It's a

4 part of the what has been marked for identification as P00379. And what

5 I'm specifically looking for is pages 10 to 18 of the Macedonian in

6 e-court, and the ERN for the English version is N000-8909 to N000-8917-ET,

7 and it's also contained in tab 6 of today's binder.

8 Q. Do you see the document in front of you, Mr. Stojanovski?

9 A. Yes, this information?

10 Q. And do you see that on the top left-hand corner it says: "Ministry

11 of Internal Affairs of the Republic of Macedonia, investigation committee

12 about the events and happenings in the village, Ljuboten. And it is dated

13 25 November 2003?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Can you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And under that you see the heading: "Information on the

18 activities undertaken by the investigation committee about the events and

19 happenings in the village, Ljuboten."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, if we could move to page 2 of the English version. And this

22 is -- sorry. This is on page 2 of the Macedonian version also.

23 If we could move to the bottom of the Macedonian page.

24 Mr. Stojanovski, do you see the paragraph which starts: "The same

25 day a conversation was carried out."

Page 6799

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And this states: "The same day a conversation was carried out

4 with the owner of the security agency Kometa, Zoran Jovanovski, alias

5 Bucuk.

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And if we could now move down a couple of lines, and I think we

9 would need to move to the next page of the Macedonian version.

10 And if we could move to the top of that page.

11 Do you see where it starts: "Otherwise, the weapon ..."

12 Can you see that on the Macedonian version?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And this states: "Otherwise the weapon, an automatic rifle and

15 two magazines he entrusted at PSOLO for which there is written

16 documentation."

17 Do you follow that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are you able to say whether the person referred to here as

20 Zoran Jovanovski, the owner of Kometa, is the same person you have

21 mentioned in your testimony as Zoran, the head of Kometa?

22 A. I couldn't say. I don't know what this here is about.

23 Q. Well, do you recall being shown the list of persons you had issued

24 weapons to?

25 A. Yes, that is fine. There is the name Zoran Jovanovski. That is

Page 6800

1 the fact. I'm not disputing that.

2 Q. Could we move to the -- to page 3 of the English version, and it's

3 page 4 of the Macedonian. And it's the second paragraph in the English

4 version, and the first full paragraph in the Macedonian.

5 And do you see where the first full paragraph in the Macedonian

6 starts: "In the conversation with Ljube Krstevski ... "

7 Do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And could you then move on to the second line in that paragraph

10 where it starts: "On 11 August 2001."

11 Do you see where I am?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that states: "On 11 August 2001 without his knowledge, around

14 80 people arrived dressed in police uniforms who he did not know and he

15 was informed by inspect Ljupce Gjurcevski that these persons are employed

16 at Kometa and among them was the owner Zoran Jovanovski, alias Bucuk.

17 Then Krstevski explained that this group of persons was mainly armed, that

18 is, they had weapons entrusted to them before at the PSOLO, while without

19 weapons there were 10 to 11 persons."

20 Did you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And is this consistent with your recollection and your testimony

23 that you provided weapons to members of Kometa at PSOLO?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And we could now move to the last paragraph on page 6 of the

Page 6801

1 English version, and this is the second paragraph on page 8 of the

2 Macedonian.

3 And this paragraph starts: "After this, a conversation was

4 carried out ..."

5 Do you see where I am on that page?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that states: "After this, a conversation was carried out with

8 Trajce Kuzmanovski too employed as a security guard at the Swiss embassy

9 through the security agency Kometa."

10 Do you see this?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And if we can move on down approximately three sentences to where

13 it starts: "To the question ..."

14 Do you see where I am now?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that states: "To the question whether he was entrusted with

17 weapons, police uniform and whether he has ever been to the police station

18 Cair" --

19 MR. DOBBYN: And at this point can we move on to the next page in

20 English,.

21 Q. -- "Kuzmanovski replied that during July 2001 he asked on his own

22 to be entrusted with an automatic rifle, four magazines, and a uniform at

23 the PSOLO, which he later returned unused because he was not engaged by

24 the police to take part in any activities."

25 Did you see that, Mr. Stojanovski?

Page 6802

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And again on the list of persons you issued weapons to, do you

3 recall seeing the name Trajce Kuzmanovski? Do you recall having seen that

4 name?

5 A. If it is there, then, yes.

6 Q. Well, perhaps if you can look at the hard copy in front of you --

7 A. Yes, yes. It's already, Kuzmanovski. It's there, yes?

8 Q. And this person was also issued with weapons and other equipment,

9 wasn't he?

10 A. Yes, he was.

11 Q. And I'd now like to move on to the third paragraph on page 7 of

12 the English. And this is the first full paragraph on page 9 of the

13 Macedonian.

14 And this starts: "Radojko Lozanovski ..."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. Yes, Radojko Lozanovski yes.

17 Q. And it states: "Radojko Lozanovski, administrator at the

18 department for Internal affairs Cair, and Miodrag Stojanovski,

19 administrator at the PSNFOO, during the events in Ljuboten this police

20 station had been called PSOLO, have been also invited for a conversation

21 in order to provide records of the persons who in this period have been

22 entrusted with police uniforms and weapons."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And were you invite to the appear before this investigation

Page 6803

1 committee?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you in fact appear before the committee?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And was the information that you provided this committee truthful

6 and accurate to the best of your knowledge?

7 A. Yes, about what they were asking me.

8 MR. DOBBYN: If we could move on to the following paragraph which

9 starts: "Stojanovski, on the other hand ..."

10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Mr. Apostolski.

11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I do apologise for interrupting

12 my learned colleague, but I believe that it would be fair regarding the

13 previous question that was asked, maybe we should ask him what he stated

14 in front of the committee and then read the text afterwards.


16 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, I'm planning on reading Mr.

17 Stojanovski's statement to him and he can comment on it after that point,

18 if he does not feel it's accurate.

19 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay, please proceed.


21 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, do you see where it states: "Stojanovski, on the

22 other hand, explained that on 25 and 26 July, 2001, a large group from the

23 agency Kometa led by Johan Tarculovski asked the commander of PSOLO,

24 Mitrev Georgi, to be entrusted with weapons, after consultations the

25 commander made with executives from the security sector, he ordered

Page 6804

1 Stojanovski to entrust these persons with weapons. They had submitted

2 list from which half of the persons were entrusted with weapons on 25

3 July, and the other half on 26 July 2001, after which all of them were

4 sent to CO KOB to join the other volunteers and to fill in questionnaires

5 for reserve police statements. All of them during the year of 2002 have

6 completely returned the weapons."

7 Did you see that, Mr. Stojanovski?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And is this a accurate summary of the information you provided to

10 the investigative committee?

11 A. In general, with the exception of this led by Johan Tarculovski

12 because I could only see Johan standing in the yard beneath the tree at

13 the station, and I haven't seen when -- them when arrived, Johan was

14 standing in the yard and he used to come up over there quite often

15 because, as a station, we provide security for residencies where the

16 president, the prime minister and other guests lived and they are quite

17 near to the station so he had regular cooperation with the commander of

18 this particular unit that provides for security of residencies where the

19 late president, Mr. Trajkovski, used to live.

20 Q. So, Mr. Stojanovski, just to clarify, are you saying that did you

21 not tell the committee that Johan Tarculovski was leading this group?

22 A. I can't tell you because Johan was standing in the yard of the

23 station. I didn't see them when they arrived. I could see only people in

24 the yard. Johan did not enter. He didn't contact me and he did not enter

25 the room where the superiors were.

Page 6805

1 Q. Perhaps I'll move on at this point.

2 As a result of speaking to the investigative committee, do you

3 recall if you prepared any type of report or note?

4 A. I wrote a statement, a written statement.

5 Q. If we could please show what is part of MFI P00379, and the part

6 I'm looking for is on page 25 of the Macedonian. The English ERN is

7 N000-8924-ET and it is also in tab 5 of today's binder.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would kindly ask we believe

9 that the Defence counsel has his microphone on still. Please can it be

10 turned off? Thank you.


12 Q. Do you see the document on the screen in front of you,

13 Mr. Stojanovski?

14 A. Yes, I can see it.

15 Q. Do you recognise this document?

16 A. No, I have a statement handwritten and I signed it. I signed it

17 before the committee in -- at the MOI. This is a Official Note. I have a

18 written statement.

19 Q. Well, looking at this Official Note, do you see at the top where

20 it says: "MVR of the Republic of Macedonia, sector for NFOO, PSNFOO

21 submitted by staff sergeant Miodrag Stojanovski, policeman administrator,

22 20 November 2003, Skopje."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. Yes, I can see it.

25 Q. Now that appears to indicate that you prepared this Official Note,

Page 6806

1 Mr. Stojanovski. Did you prepare this Official Note?

2 A. There is no signature of mine here, as far as I can see it. I

3 only recollect that I wrote a statement. I did not prepare a Official

4 Note. I was asked at the very same place by the committee to prepare a

5 written statement.

6 Q. Well, if we can move to what it says on the Official Note. You'll

7 see it says:

8 "On 25 July 2001, a group from the Kometa agency, led by Johan

9 Tarculovski, employed at the security sector of the RM MVR arrived at the

10 PS OOV. They presented a list to commander Georgi Mitrev and asked to be

11 issued with weapons as volunteer police reservists. The commander, having

12 consulted his superiors at the security sector, ordered me to issue the

13 weapons. Half of the men from the list were issued with weapons on 25

14 July 2001 and the other half on 26 July 2001, after which they were sent

15 to the CO KOB to join other volunteers and fill out the questionnaires for

16 police reservists.

17 The list of volunteers issued with weapons is enclosed in the

18 attachment. All items were issued were returned by the persons from the

19 list in 2002."

20 Do you see that, Mr. Stojanovski?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. And is this the same information that it states in the note from

23 the investigative committee that you provided?

24 A. Yes, with the exception of "led by" and they contacted the

25 commander Mitrev Georgi with the list. They did not come to the commander

Page 6807

1 with the list. Who actually entered there, I'm not aware. However, they

2 did not have a list.

3 Q. Having gone through --

4 A. Everything else is just fine.

5 Q. So having gone through this list, does this refresh your

6 recollection as to whether you were the person who prepared this Official

7 Note now?

8 A. The Official Note was not prepared by me.

9 Q. Does this look like the standard form of a Official Note that

10 would be prepared at your police department?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you've testified --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And am I correct in understanding your testimony that the majority

15 of this note, with the exception of one point, is a accurate description

16 of the information you provided to the committee?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this at this

19 point.

20 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes, Ms. Residovic.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as I

22 remember, the complete material of the second committee was proposed to be

23 accepted and the Defence counsel presented numerous arguments as a result

24 of the comment from the counsel the -- the Prosecution gave a written

25 statement and we reacted and that is why we decided and we believe that

Page 6808

1 this is a material that a decision has to be made by the counsel [as

2 interpreted].

3 And regarding this last document, although the part of the content

4 was recognised by the witness, he did not recognise the document as a

5 document that he has prepared. The document was not signed by the

6 witness -- I apologise.

7 In line 18, it says that decision should be made by the Defence

8 counsel, and I believe that I said and this is what correct, we expect the

9 decision by the Chamber.

10 So for individual documents we agree that they can be agreed but

11 in any indication, the complete material is this -- that the Chamber will

12 make a decision afterwards.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would object for

15 this written documents to be accepted in evidence, because the witness

16 was -- did not confirm it. He said that he did not prepare this Official

17 Note in the major part of the text, the most important informations were

18 not confirmed by him, and that is why I believe that this written document

19 should not be tendered into evidence.

20 Thank you.


22 The Trial Chamber, indeed, recollects that this is part of a

23 larger motion that is still before it and it reserves its decision on this

24 point, to be delivered together with the decision on the entirety of the

25 motion.

Page 6809

1 So it is still marked for identification, Mr. Dobbyn.

2 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Perhaps if we could go back to the prior document, which, again,

4 is part of MFI 379, pages 10 to 18 in the Macedonian. And it is N000-8909

5 to 8917 the English.

6 And if we could to go to the last paragraph on the first page in

7 the English and it is the first full paragraph on page 2 of the

8 Macedonian.

9 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, do you see the paragraph starts: "With regard to

10 the question."

11 A. I don't have it in front of me. I still have the first page.

12 Q. My apologies.

13 Okay. Do you see --

14 MR. DOBBYN: Oh, Your Honours I realise also that this is also the

15 subject of our motion to have it admitted and because it refers to a

16 statement of one of the accused, my intention at this time is not to read

17 this into the record but rather to have the witness read it over to

18 himself, and I will ask him to make a comment as this may come to the

19 weight of the document later on, if it is admitted.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I understood it

21 well, my learned colleague, he would like for the witness to declare

22 regarding a part of a document in -- if I am mistaken, I would like for

23 this to be confirmed with respect to my learned colleague, are you going

24 to ask additional questions regarding the document that was shown on the

25 screen?

Page 6810


2 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, I believe --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

4 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry.

5 As I was stating, I will be asking the witness to view certain

6 passages on this document but not read them into the record and I will ask

7 for his comment on those passages which are in this document.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In that case, Your Honour, I will

9 object to this type of questioning of the witness.

10 My learned colleague has asked several questions related to this

11 information. According to my opinion, the correct manner of questioning

12 would be, first of all, to determine whether the witness has ever seen

13 this information; and whether he is aware of this information, that it was

14 prepared; then whether he knows if the persons mentioned in this

15 information have been interviewed; and only then maybe to read it and to

16 find out whether this coincides with his observations. We did not object

17 when the Prosecutor has shown the part relating to the witness himself

18 because he could recollect and he could tell the Trial Chamber his own

19 opinion. Regarding the other passages of the information, I don't think

20 that this is the correct of interviewing the witness.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fully concur with

23 the objection provided by my colleague Residovic.

24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: The Trial Chamber will uphold the

25 objection. It is indeed part of a decision that still has to be rendered

Page 6811

1 by the Trial Chamber about the admissibility of this particular piece of

2 evidence, so the Trial Chamber does not think it to be proper to ask

3 further questions on this point.

4 Will you please proceed Mr. Dobbyn.

5 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours. I will move on.

6 If we could now show 65 ter 653, which is in tab 7 of today's

7 binder.

8 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, do you see the document that's on the screen in

9 front of you now?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And at the top it is headed telegram, Ministry of Interior for the

12 Republic of Macedonia, Cabinet of the Minister?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It is dated 28 July 2001, Skopje. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then you'll see that it's addressed to various departments

17 within the Ministry of Interior. And if you look through that, you will

18 see that it is also addressed to your department in 2001, PSOLO. Do you

19 see that?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And this thing goes on to state:

22 "We would like to inform that you all head of organisational units

23 as of today (28 July 2001) for the reason that the security situation has

24 deteriorate in the country, the use of annual leaves of the employees at

25 the Ministry of Internal Affairs are cut short, which has been approved by

Page 6812

1 telegram number 3792/1933 from 17 July 2001. All employees that are on

2 annual leave shall be informed immediately to return to their work."

3 Do you see that?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. And do you see that there's a signature at the bottom and above

6 that, it is written Ljube Boskoski, Minister of Internal Affairs; do you

7 see that?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Do you recall being informed during the crisis period at some time

10 around late July 2001 that employees of the Ministry of Interior would not

11 be allowed to take any annual leave at that time? Do you recall that?

12 A. This is a obligation of the superior, to inform all the employees.

13 Q. And were you informed of that?

14 A. I did not use the annual leave. I was working so there was no

15 need for me to be informed. There is a unit on duty. They received the

16 telegram, they record it, then the telegram is given to the superior and

17 he, through the duty unit and through the commanders of the separate units

18 would inform all the employees.

19 Since I was on duty, I was working. There was no need for me to

20 be informed about this particular telegram.

21 Q. Were you aware at the time that other employees were not able to

22 take annual leave?

23 A. I am quite sure I was aware, probably I have heard that from the

24 people on duty.

25 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, at this time I would seek to tender this

Page 6813

1 document.

2 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P489, Your Honours.

4 MR. DOBBYN: And at this time I have no further questions,

5 Your Honours.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much, Mr. Dobbyn.

7 I think it's time for a break now. We will adjourn --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.


12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

13 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Stojanovski.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. My name is Edina Residovic. I'm the Defence counsel for

17 Mr. Boskoski.

18 Before I start asking you some questions related to your

19 testimony, I would like to ask you one thing; namely, I understand the

20 language that you are speaking, and you probably also understand the

21 questions that I will ask you in the Bosnian language.

22 However, my questions and your answers need to be interpreted by

23 the interpreters, so that Their Honours and the colleagues in the

24 courtroom are able to follow my questions and your answers to them.

25 Therefore, I ask you to wait for my question to be interpreted and own

Page 6814

1 then answer it. This would be the best way for you to assist the

2 Trial Chamber and the interpreters.

3 Have you understood this?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, is it correct that you have graduated from the

6 secondary school in 1970?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You have served your conscription military service in the JNA

9 between 1975 and 1977 in Pristina; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When asked by my learned colleague the Prosecutor you stated that

12 you work for the police for 29 years. My question is whether it is

13 correct that immediately after having served your conscription military

14 service in 1977, you started working in the police of the Republic of

15 Macedonia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Your first post was actually in the unit known as PSOLO, the

18 Police Station for Security of Facilities and Persons; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And, Mr. Stojanovski, in order for to us be precise, is it correct

21 that in 2001 the real title your police station was Police Station for

22 Security of Governmental Facilities and the Diplomatic Consular

23 Representative Offices but, still it was colloquially known as PSOLO. Is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6815

1 Q. When asked by my colleague you also stated that in 2001 you were

2 working as an administrator within PSOLO. However, I'm asking you whether

3 it is correct that for the first five years of your work, of your career

4 in PSOLO you were actually a ordinary police officer and after that, until

5 the present day you work as a administrator. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Although you did say something about the work of your police

8 station, I will ask you to answer a few more questions.

9 Is it correct that the main task of your police station was to

10 provide security for the governmental institutions but also to provide

11 security for the foreign embassies, consulates, and residences?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In -- if I were to say that the intergovernmental organisations,

14 the facilities, the buildings that belonged to the state of the Republic

15 of Macedonia such as the parliament, the government building, the

16 buildings of the ministries, banks, then this would be the accurate

17 descriptions of the buildings that you had the duty to provide security

18 for; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Stojanovski, that your sector, your police

21 station, was within the sector for security, while the sector for security

22 was a part of the bureau of public security. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. PSOLO, so your police station, was rather large, and in 2001 it

25 consisted of nine sections, for instance section for protection of

Page 6816

1 governmental buildings, then unit for protection of the parliament, unit

2 for security of embassies, et cetera; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You stated that your superior officer was Georgi Mitrev. Is it

5 correct that in 2001 he was the commander of your police station, of


7 A. Yes.

8 Q. His immediate superior was Vasilevski Borce; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And above Vasilevski Borce, so the superior of the entire sector

11 for security in 2001, was Zivko Gacevski; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Considering your answer that your sector for security was within

14 the bureau for public security, is it correct that also the unit for

15 defence preparations, the one that you mentioned answering questions of my

16 learned friend, was also within the public security bureau?

17 A. I think, yes.

18 Q. You were working as an administrator. Apart from the commander of

19 the police station, Georgi Mitrev, you had, as your superiors also

20 Krstevski Dusko deputy commander of the police station, and Georgsevski,

21 Gorgi, assistant to the commander of the police station. Am I right when

22 saying this?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS RESIDOVIC: In line 14, I said that he was "assistant", it was

25 interpreted as "civilian", but it is now corrected as "assistant".

Page 6817

1 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, if I say that your post of administrator you

2 carried out your duties pursuant to the law but also pursuant to the rule

3 books that the minister or the government would pass in relation to the

4 performance of the tasks within the Ministry of Interior, as well as

5 pursuant to the annual operational plan that you had adopted within the

6 police station, then that would be the basis for you to carry out your

7 duties; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Apart from these general acts on the basis of which you carried

10 out your duties you carried out your duties also on the basis of

11 instructions or ordered by your immediate superiors; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in your rather long experience within the Ministry of

14 Interior, career of 29 years, you, or any other officer who was directly

15 carrying out duties and tasks, never received a order from the minister;

16 is that correct?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Does this "no" mean that you never received any order from the

19 minister?

20 A. No. I have never received any order apart from my -- from my

21 superior officer, Mitrev Georgi.

22 Q. At the same time is it correct, Mr. Stojanovski, that you were

23 directly responsible to your superior, to your immediate superior, the

24 police station commander for the proper and legal carrying out of duties?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6818

1 Q. And, actually, if you or any other officer would fail to perform

2 their duties pursuant to the law and the rules, it was only the direct

3 superior officer, the one who could collect data about that failure to

4 perform tasks, and it was only the immediate superior, the one could

5 instigate a disciplinary procedure. Is my understanding of the procedure

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And if that happened, then a normal disciplinary procedure would

9 be run, as prescribed by the rules of the Ministry of Interior. Is that

10 correct as well?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Answering the questions of my learned friend, you stated that your

13 tasks were to compile and to archive lists and to be in charge of the

14 warehouses; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So, if I understood you well, you maintained the records, certain

17 records in the police station, and you took care about the warehouses that

18 the police station had; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Within your police station, there was -- there were many

21 warehouses. Is that correct? Warehouse for weapons, for ammunition, for

22 uniforms. Is that correct?

23 A. One warehouse for weapons and one warehouse for clothes.

24 Q. When you answered the question of my colleague, the Prosecutor,

25 you stated: "I issued only automatic rifles."

Page 6819

1 My question is: Is it correct that you in the warehouses of PSOLO

2 had only certain types of weapon, namely, automatic rifles of Yugoslav or

3 Ukrainian make; and pistols made by Zastava, model M-57; a calibre 7.62

4 millimetres; and for the regular police, also pistols Zastava of 9

5 millimetres calibre. Are those the weapons you had in your warehouse?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And if I understood you well, you never had in the warehouse any

8 rifles of Chinese make; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. There were never such guns there.

10 Q. You never had Thompson rifles also?

11 A. No, no, never. We never had such rifles at all.

12 Q. Also if I understood you well, you never had Zoljas at the police

13 station, and therefore you were not able to issue Zoljas to anyone; is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In the lists shown to you by my learned friend, it could be seen

17 clearly that the persons who were issued weapons by you at the 25th and

18 26th were also issued with uniforms; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If I may reframe your statement, you stated that they were

21 ordinary camouflage uniforms that could have had difference in the shades

22 of colour and they also had the standard police patches on them; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And let me ask you something now, Mr. Stojanovski. Is it correct

Page 6820

1 that the Macedonian language has only one alphabet, the Cyrillic alphabet

2 is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And the letter that would be written in Latin alphabet as the

5 letter "P" would be read in the Cyrillic alphabet as the letter "R"; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the marking on a certain object, a uniform or anything else

9 that would -- had the capital "R" or a "PM" in Latin alphabet, that would

10 mean Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will ask you now to show the

13 witness the exhibit, first the exhibit P15.

14 I would like to ask you to zoom in to these patch on the sleeve.

15 Q. Could you tell me what is written here on this patch?

16 A. "Police."

17 Q. So the first patch is actually the letter "P", in Cyrillic

18 alphabet; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness the

22 Exhibit P35.

23 Could we please zoom in on to the patch.

24 Q. You see here, Mr. Stojanovski, there is -- there are the letters

25 "R" and "M" here in the middle of this laurel. So is my understanding

Page 6821

1 correct if I say that this is abbreviation for the Republic of Macedonia?

2 A. Logically, yes.

3 Q. And if anyone sees a patch of this type on a uniform, then they

4 could only read the Republic of Macedonia, they could only read this as

5 meaning Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Otherwise if it should be written the police of the Republic of

8 Macedonia, in a given patch, then, first, those should be -- this marking

9 that is in the second row from above, that is the letter "P" in the

10 Cyrillic alphabet; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So finally the marking "RM", if somebody saw that on a uniform,

13 can mean only the Republic of Macedonia and could not indicate whether the

14 uniform is a police uniform, an army uniform, or uniform of any other

15 body; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Within your duties, as you already stated

18 and repeated, was also the issuance of weapons that your police station

19 had in stock in the warehouse; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You, as well as the other police stations, issued those weapons

22 pursuant to the instruction on issuance of weapons.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Answering the questions by my learned colleague, you stated that

25 you had received a order from the police station commander and I'm asking

Page 6822

1 whether it is correct that pursuant to the instruction on issuance of

2 weapons the police station commander was the person responsible to issue

3 weapons; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You also stated that from your warehouse the weapons were

6 distributed not only to the regular but also to the reserve police forces

7 and in 2001 also to the volunteers; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. With regards to this, Mr. Stojanovski, I would like to ask you few

10 questions that might be general.

11 Is it correct that all citizens of Macedonia of full age, after

12 they served the conscription military service, are deployed within the

13 reserve forces of the army of the Republic of Macedonia or the police of

14 the Republic of Macedonia?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The records of persons that are deployed within the reserve forces

17 of the police as you have already mentioned, are maintained in the unit

18 for defence preparations of either police stations and Ministry of

19 Interior or in the sector for internal affairs of that region or of the

20 city of Skopje; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the records for the reserve forces of the army of the Republic

23 of Macedonia are maintained in the units of defence in certain

24 municipalities in the Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6823

1 Q. Although this is not your own task but considering that you issued

2 weapons also to the reserve forces, I would like to ask you whether it is

3 correct that if some person wanted to change their post within the reserve

4 forces that change could be introduced only by the unit for defence of the

5 Ministry of Defence within a given municipality, upon a request of, let's

6 say, the competent body of police that was dealing with defence

7 preparations?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And to wrap up the general questions, is it correct that if the

10 police would need a greater number of the members of the reserve forces or

11 if the -- there would be a greater number of volunteers coming to the

12 police, then the person in charge of defence preparations would need to

13 submit a request to the Ministry of Defence to the unit within the

14 municipality to deploy a certain number of officers to the police and that

15 they are transferred from the list of the reserve army forces to the

16 reserve police forces. Was that, in brief, the procedure that was

17 necessary to be respected?

18 A. I suppose yes, although it is outside of my scope of competence.

19 Q. Are you aware that, in fact, the reserve forces of the police

20 would be summoned also during peacetime in order for certain exercises to

21 take place?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. At that time, only those persons would be called from the list of

24 the reserve forces of the police; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6824

1 Q. During the security situation when it was worsened, when the

2 public order and peace is endangered or during wartime the members of the

3 reserve forces would be called upon; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And they could have been called individually, or there could have

6 been a general notice so that people would come to the positions where

7 they have been allocated to, in the reserve forces; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Answering to the questions of my learned colleagues, you said that

10 from around June in your police station a certain number of volunteers

11 started to come who were willing to accept weapons or to be admitted into

12 the reserve forces of the police. Do you remember saying this?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. However, I would like to ask you the following. Is it correct

15 that in order for these volunteers who were not previously on the list of

16 the reserve forces of the police, for them to be accepted in the reserve

17 forces, it wasn't enough for them to be issued just weapons and uniforms,

18 but they had to go through training to conduct the redistribution of their

19 position or post in the reserve forces of the army to be entered in the

20 reserve list of the police, to be allocated to certain tasks, and to

21 receive payment for their engagement in the police, the so-called salary

22 of the reserve forces, and, as you said a little bit later, for them to

23 receive the ID of the reserve forces.

24 Are these all the conditions that had to be met in order for a

25 volunteer to become a member of the reserve forces of the police?

Page 6825

1 A. Yes, this is the procedure.

2 Q. And when you were saying the word "volunteers," if I understood it

3 well, you were trying to say that these people, according to what you knew

4 at that moment, at that moment they were not part of the reserve forces;

5 is that correct?

6 A. Not in the police, yes, most probably.

7 Q. And in order for them to become reservists in the police, they had

8 to go through all of this training, to be deployed in the reserve forces

9 of the police, they had to be on the list of the reserve forces of the

10 police and they were supposed to receive salaries at the police; is this

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you were issuing weapons to these volunteers who arrived, you

14 said that you did not issue IDs for two reasons: The first one because

15 this was not your duty at all to issue special documents for

16 identification; and, number two, because at that time such documents have

17 not been prescribed yet; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask for the witness to

20 be shown Exhibit P85, please. This is ER 004 [as interpreted].

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters did not catch the number.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The English is ER042. So Exhibit

23 P85, Macedonian version page ER042-4706 and the English ER042-4706-ET.

24 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, can you see in front of you this rule book?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6826

1 Q. Which contains the form and the procedure for the issuance of a

2 special document for the identification of the members of the reserve

3 forces of the MOI.

4 I will kindly ask for the document to be lifted upwards so that we

5 can see the bottom of the page of this document.

6 As you can see, this document is comprised on -- in July 2001 in

7 Skopje.

8 If we turn to the first page -- in fact, if we look at the second

9 page, ER042-7408 and the English ER4704-ET [as interpreted].

10 One more page, if you can turn it, please. And the same page in

11 English. ER042-4709-ET.

12 While we turn to the next page in English, at the bottom of this

13 Macedonian text, following Article 7, you can see the number of the

14 document and you can see that it was issued on the 1st of August, 2001.

15 Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. My question, Mr. Stojanovski, is: Is it correct that until this

18 date, if you can recall it, the volunteers who were coming, the overall

19 procedure that we mentioned, had to be followed, but throughout this

20 procedure they still could not get this document for identification

21 because at that time it did not exist yet. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And is it correct that following this period, all the individuals

24 who have been accepted in the reserve forces previously as well as the

25 individuals who have been accepted following this document and its

Page 6827

1 adoption, they had to be -- they had to accept this type of identification

2 from the security preparation as a proof of their status in the reserve

3 force of the police?

4 A. According to the rule book, yes.

5 Q. And as far as you know, this was followed in practice as well; is

6 this correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On the 25th and 26th of July when you issued the weapons to these

9 individuals who came to the police station, as you mentioned earlier, in

10 order for them to become part of the reserve force of the police, they had

11 to fulfil some other conditions. However, is it correct that you were not

12 the person who had to instruct them about all they have to do but this was

13 the police station commander? Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you individually did not and you were not obliged to check

16 whether these people attended training, whether their position in the

17 police reserve forces has been regulated or whether they have been

18 included in the list of the reserve forces of the police. You have never,

19 until the present date, checked this out; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you don't know at all whether these individuals at any time,

22 all of them or some of them, whether they have been included in and

23 registered in the reserve police forces; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So you would agree with me, Mr. Stojanovski, that the act of

Page 6828

1 issuing weapons and uniforms at your police station did not mean that the

2 people received the status of reserve police officers; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This was exactly identical for all other police stations and not

5 just for yours. So also for the police station in Cair or Gazi Baba or

6 any other police station, the actual receipt of the weapon was not a proof

7 that a individual became a member of the reserve police forces of the MOI.

8 Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Responding to the question of my learned colleague, you said that

11 Goran Stojkov in the fall sometime in 2001, he asked you to maintain the

12 registry, the list of the Lions; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, when they were established with a decision.

14 Q. Very well. Now I will ask to you look at the Exhibit 1D153. This

15 is page N000-5388, the Macedonian; and the English version would be

16 N000-5388-ET.

17 Before you, you have the list of 182 individuals who have been

18 hired in the Fast Response Unit Lions on the basis of the agreement

19 provided by the Ministry of Finance number 19?

20 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not catch the rest of

21 the numbers.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. On the 12th of November, 2001.

24 Can you please tell me, Mr. Stojanovski - and this is the 12th of

25 November, 2001, thank you - is this the first list of the individuals who

Page 6829

1 were members of the Fast Response Battalion, Lions, that you maintained

2 later on and you updated the list with additional individuals who have

3 been accepted at the Rapid Deployment Battalion later on?

4 A. Yes. This was a list that was prepared by the sector for legal

5 issues, according to the decision.

6 Q. So what you said that sometime in the fall, November or December,

7 you started maintaining the Lions lists as well. Then this review of the

8 182 persons would be a proof that only in November 2001 you started for

9 the first time to maintain the records of the Lions, because this is the

10 time when they were established. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. Also, to a question of my learned colleague, you said

13 that the members of the Rapid Deployment Battalion, Lions, received their

14 weapon later on in Idrizovo.

15 Is it correct, Mr. Stojanovski, that in your warehouses at PSOLO

16 you had only a limited number or quantities of weapons which, after being

17 handed out to the regular police forces and the volunteers who were coming

18 to apply in smaller groups, you did not have any further weapons to be

19 given out to other units? Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. To a question of my learned colleague related to the people who

22 arrived on the 25th of July, the question whether you ever issued any

23 weapons earlier to some organisations, you replied that they arrived as

24 volunteers. To the subsequent question, if you ever issued any weapons to

25 a group of people from a security organisation or any other organisation,

Page 6830

1 earlier you said that this was the first time.

2 My question, Mr. Stojanovski, is: Did you, at that time, issue

3 the weapons to every single person individually as volunteers?

4 A. Yes, if I was ordered so. I would do that only upon orders.

5 Q. However, you did not issue weapons at that time to any kind of

6 organisation; is this correct?

7 A. Yes. I issued the weapons to every single person individually.

8 Q. You only knew from what you were told that they come from this

9 security agency or organisation Kometa, but according to the rule, you

10 issued the weapons to every single person individually as a individual

11 volunteer; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Considering that there were groups of volunteers before coming to

14 you and you issued weapons to them, would my conclusion, the one that I

15 will say to you in a moment, be correct; namely, is it correct that due to

16 the deteriorated security situation in the Republic of Macedonia, there

17 was a huge dissatisfaction of the citizens. There were frequent protests

18 and demonstrations that put also the government buildings that were under

19 the competences of your police stations at risk. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And is it correct also that your police station needed additional

22 forces so that you can perform your duties fully in such complex

23 circumstances?

24 A. Yes, since the active police officers were deployed in the field,

25 in the fight against terrorists.

Page 6831

1 Q. So you, as a person who worked only on issuance and recording the

2 issued weapons, were aware that that one part of the volunteers that used

3 to come earlier would be subjected to the procedure and would become

4 member of the reserve forces and would be then involved in carrying out

5 some of the duties of your police station?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And if I were to say that the difference between those groups that

8 came previously, as you stated in your statement earlier, in groups of

9 five or ten people, and this group that came, for you the only difference

10 was the number of them; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you didn't find anything strange in the situation that people

13 came to enlist within the reserve forces, and they were needed to be

14 issued with weapons and uniforms; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. However, as you stated, you never checked or you never knew and

17 this is also not within your scope of competences to know whether these

18 persons became reserve forces of the police at any time?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

21 questions. Thank you.

22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.

23 Mr. Apostolski.

24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

25 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

Page 6832

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. My name is

2 Antonio Apostolski and I appear on behalf of Mr. Johan Tarculovski.

3 Together with me there is my colleague, Jasmina Zivkovic, who is also

4 Defence counsel for Mr. Tarculovski.

5 Before I start asking you questions, I would like to draw your

6 attention as my colleague Edina Residovic had, that you speak my language,

7 the Macedonian, I also understand the language that you will use in

8 answering my questions, but I would like to ask you to wait for it to be

9 interpreted into the other languages so that the interpreters are better

10 able to interpret what we are saying.

11 Witness, you work in the police station for external physical

12 security of facilities as an administrator?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As my colleague stated, it is known as PSOLO?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct that the police station where you work, PSOLO, is at

17 the foothill of the Vodno mountain?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That is in the southern part of Skopje?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it correct that the residence of the president of the Republic

22 of Macedonia is in the immediate vicinity of the PSOLO station?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is it correct that the president of the Republic of Macedonia, the

25 late Boris Trajkovski, together with his family, in 2001, used to live in

Page 6833

1 the residence that is located in the immediate vicinity of the PSOLO

2 police station?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it correct that the security of the president, his personal

5 security, the security for his family, often came to the police station

6 where you worked and actively cooperated with them?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This is how you know Mr. Johan Tarculovski, as a body-guard for

9 the president Boris Trajkovski?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it correct that Johan Tarculovski came often to your station,

12 PSOLO, where you were working?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you saw Mr. Johan Tarculovski there several times.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could it have happened that Johan Tarculovski was at the station

17 at other times when weapons were issued?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You stated that you have seen him on the 25th of July, Mr. Johan

20 Tarculovski, in the yard of the station near the walnut tree?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it correct that that place is different from the place where

23 the group that was being issued with weapons was standing?

24 A. He was standing there alone. There was no one else next to him,

25 and with regards to the group, some were inside, some were standing

Page 6834

1 outside.

2 Q. So you did not see Mr. Johan Tarculovski talking to anyone of the

3 group?

4 A. No.

5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

6 the Exhibit P00379, marked for identification; otherwise 65 ter 285.11.

7 We are waiting for the English version to appear on the screen.

8 Could --

9 Q. Do you see the Official Note on the screen, the one that my

10 learned friend from the Prosecutor's office showed you before?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you agree with me that there are several inaccuracies in

13 this Official Note?

14 A. I stated this before, "led by" does not correspond to the truth.

15 Q. The first inaccuracy is that the person submitting this Official

16 Note is Staff Sergeant Miodrag Stojanovski, police officer administrator?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Further on, it is incorrect that the volunteers led by

19 Johan Tarculovski?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This is another inaccuracy and also you said that they -- that the

22 list was submitted to the commander Georgi Mitrev. They presented a list?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So this fact is also inaccurate in this Official Note. Also, you

25 do not know whether your commander was in consultations with the superiors

Page 6835

1 from the security sector before ordering you?

2 A. I could not know, because I do not enter his office.

3 Q. So you can agree with me that there at least four facts in this

4 Official Note that are inaccurate?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Very well. Thank you.

7 I would like to ask you now, you answered a question by my learned

8 colleague Edina Residovic that in the warehouse where the weapons were

9 kept there were also pistols made by Zastava. Do you remember that.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Are these pistols made in Yugoslavia made in the city of

12 Kragujevac, in Serbia, to be more specific?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it correct that in the factory Zastava in Kragujevac, cars are

15 made as well?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it correct that the cars of the make Zastava were produced

18 before 2001?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it correct that the cars Zastava are still produced until this

21 very day in Kragujevac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness.

24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

25 questions.

Page 6836

1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.

2 Mr. Dobbyn.

3 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you, Your Honours. I do have a few questions.

4 Re-examination by Mr. Dobbyn:

5 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, were you asked by my learned colleague

6 Ms. Residovic about whether you had ever received orders yourself from the

7 Minister of the Interior. Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you said that, no, you never received orders yourself; do you

10 recall saying that?

11 A. It is correct. I received orders only from my superior officer.

12 This is what the hierarchy structure is like.

13 Q. And isn't the hierarchical structure also that the minister would

14 issue orders. They would not go to you but they would go to your

15 superiors; isn't that correct?

16 A. That -- yes.

17 Q. You were also asked about what would happen if there was a breach

18 of discipline by a member of the Ministry of the Interior. And this is at

19 page 41. You were asked whether it was the case that only the immediate

20 superior could investigate disciplinary proceedings. Do you remember

21 that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And if I understand correctly you agreed with my learned colleague

24 that it would be only the immediate superior who would instigate

25 disciplinary proceedings; is that correct?

Page 6837

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Stojanovski, what would happen if a member of the Ministry of

3 the Interior committed some act against the rules of the ministry and this

4 was discovered by someone perhaps above his immediate superior?

5 A. I am an ordinary police officer. I'm not a superior officer to

6 make that assessment, what would happen.

7 Q. Well, as far as you are aware, if the Minister of Interior himself

8 became aware of a breach of the rules of discipline of the ministry would

9 be able to instigate disciplinary proceedings?

10 A. I could not answer this. This is outside of my scope of

11 competence.

12 Q. Well, then, if we can revisit what you said so my learned

13 colleague, would it then be fair to say that your response to her question

14 was also outside your scope of knowledge? You don't really know what the

15 situation is, as far as disciplinary proceedings goes?

16 A. I said that I was aware of the disciplinary procedures. The

17 commander is the one instigating the disciplinary procedure for his

18 subordinate officers.

19 Q. And so is it your testimony that someone above a person's

20 immediate superior does not have the authority to instigate disciplinary

21 proceedings, or you simply don't know?

22 A. They could possibly order the one below them, so they then

23 instigate a disciplinary procedure.

24 Q. Now, you were also asked some questions by my learned colleague

25 about the procedure for issuing weapons and whether volunteers who were

Page 6838

1 issued with weapons were considered to be members of the reservists. Do

2 you recall that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, these people who came to PSOLO and who were issued with

5 weapons, these volunteers, the uniforms that they were issued with, would

6 they be any different to what the regular reservists were wearing?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Would the automatic weapons that they carried, would be they

9 different to what the regular reservists were using?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So, for example, to a general member of the public would there be

12 any way for them to tell the difference between the volunteers and regular

13 reservists?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what would that be?

16 A. There is no difference.

17 Q. And prior to the point where identification cards were issued,

18 which I believe the order showed to be in August 2001, did volunteers ever

19 join up with units of the reserve or active police?

20 A. The volunteers were sent to Idrizovo, because accommodation and

21 provision were provided there so that they would undergo the police train

22 and they would be redeployed from the reserve forces of the army or

23 whether they were into the reserve forces of the police.

24 Q. And once they were redeployed would they be expected to follow the

25 orders and instructions of the commanders of the units they were deployed

Page 6839

1 to?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when you issued weapons and other equipment, uniforms and such

4 to volunteers, was this done with the intention that these people would be

5 deployed to reserve or regular units?

6 A. This is not within my competences. The superior officer who

7 ordered me to issue them with weapons knows that.

8 Q. Well, from your knowledge of how the Ministry of the Interior

9 works or how the police force works, would you expect that your superiors

10 would give orders for civilians to be able to roam the streets of

11 Macedonia in uniform -- in police uniform and with police weapons without

12 them actually being part of the Ministry of Interior?

13 A. As far as I know, no.

14 Q. And by my learned colleague Mr. Apostolski were asked some

15 question about the presence of Mr. Tarculovski at the police station, at

16 PSOLO, on 25th of July. Do you recall that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it was your testimony at that point that he was standing alone

19 by a walnut tree and was not with anyone else; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, do you recall earlier on when I was asking you questions

22 being shown -- refreshing your memory with part of your statement in which

23 it said that Mr. Tarculovski had led the group, had come with the group of

24 Kometa employees to the police station. Do you recall where it said that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6840

1 Q. So are you saying that that was incorrect?

2 A. I did not see them arriving, so I cannot really say whether he

3 came with them or not. I was in my office, and only when I got out I

4 could see the people and himself. I did not see them earlier.

5 Q. Was he mingling with these other people?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So, again, I need to ask you this, and I want you to answer this

8 question. The part of your statement that you were shown which said that

9 Mr. Tarculovski and the Kometa people arrived together, are you saying

10 that that is incorrect?

11 A. If I saw them coming, then I could have said that they arrived

12 together, but I did not see them arriving.

13 Q. So, again, please answer this with a yes or no. Is that part of

14 your statement that was shown incorrect?

15 A. No.

16 Q. No, it is not incorrect?

17 A. Yes. Yes, it is incorrect.

18 Q. And are you saying that's as a result of a misunderstanding by the

19 investigator who interviewed you?

20 A. I told you that Mr. Thomas or -- was making a lot of corrections

21 and at the end it was rather late and I was tired and all, and the

22 statement was not read to me again. I just signed the statement and we

23 left.

24 Q. Do you also recall being shown a document which is marked for

25 identification as P00379, the information on the activities undertaken by

Page 6841

1 the investigate committee where it stated that you provided the

2 information to them that Johan Tarculovski led the group of Kometa

3 employees. Do you recall that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is it your testimony that they also were mistaken on this one

6 particular point?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you were shown the Official Note, which is also marked for

9 identification as part of the -- the exhibit marked for identification as

10 P00379, which states it was submitted by you but you have testified was

11 not. And, again, that contained the information that Johan Tarculovski

12 led the group of Kometa employees. Do you remember seeing that document?

13 A. Yes, I remember.

14 Q. And is it your testimony that whoever did prepare this particular

15 note, was also mistaken on that specific point?

16 A. What is missing is my written statement. It is obvious that the

17 committee did not provide it to you, which is the most relevant one.

18 Q. But, again, my question is a little more specific than that. Are

19 you saying that at that particular point whoever prepared that note was

20 mistaken also?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. DOBBYN: I have no further questions at this time,

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much Mr. Dobbyn.

Page 6842

1 Mr. Stojanovski, thank you very much for the help that you have

2 given to this Court. This brings your evidence to an end, and you may now

3 withdraw. Thank you very much.

4 [The witness withdrew]


6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours I would like to

7 propose for the Exhibit 1D146 MFI that marked for identification on the

8 3rd of September, 2007, this is page of the transcript 4.519, which has

9 been shown to the witness, Eichner, to be accepted as evidence. On this

10 page the proposal was for this document to be just marked for

11 identification until the corrected interpretation is not received from the

12 CLSS. Now this updated translation is accepted to 1D00- --

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the rest of it.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- so we would like ask for the

15 translation to be replaced.

16 I will repeat the number of the corrected, 1D00-8184, and we

17 kindly ask, first of all, for the previous translation to be replaced and,

18 number two, for this document to be accepted into evidence. Otherwise

19 this was document which was earlier on the 65 ter list of the Prosecution

20 under number 69.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic. It

23 will be received.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Under the same number, that would be 1D146,

25 Your Honours.

Page 6843

1 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.

2 Ms. Motoike.

3 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.

4 The Prosecution, I believe, expected the present witness to take a

5 little bit longer. However Mr. Bezruchenko could resume his testimony. I

6 believe we were checking with the Defence to see whether or not they were

7 in a position though to start that today or tomorrow.

8 I believe Ms. Guduric was sending an email as the --

9 Mr. Stojanovski was testifying.

10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I turn now to Ms. Residovic.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague Guenael Mettraux who

12 is cross-examining the witness, the expert witness, Mr. Bezruchenko, is

13 not present in The Hague and he won't be present until Sunday, and these

14 were the reasons why the Defence counsel of Mr. Boskoski asked for the

15 cross-examination of this witness to be continued on Monday.

16 Therefore, we would like to ask for the Trial Chamber to approve

17 this delay for the cross-examination until Monday, because the purpose,

18 and bearing in mind the fact that the cross-examination is being conducted

19 by Mr. Mettraux, it would not be possible for us to continue with the

20 cross-examination today and tomorrow.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: So I understand that, Mr. Apostolski,

25 would not be ready to start your cross-examination?

Page 6844

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we sent a e-mail to

2 Ms. Guduric and we informed them that we are not capable of starting

3 interviewing this -- questioning this witness tomorrow and bearing in mind

4 the load, the volume of the questions to be asked, after all, I would

5 propose the Trial Chamber to postpone his -- his testimony until Monday.

6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you very much.

7 Well, then, the Trial Chamber can't do anything else than adjourn

8 for the rest of the week, and we will resume on a Monday morning at 9.00.

9 Thank you very much.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.32 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of October,

12 2007, at 9.00 a.m.