Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9128

 1                          Friday, 8 February 2008

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  Good morning.

 7            The affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence still

 8    applies, sir.

 9            Ms. Residovic.

10                          WITNESS:  PETRE STOJANOVSKI [Resumed]

11                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

12            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13                          Examination by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]

14       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Stojanovski.

15            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would need the

16    assistance of the usher to show the Court and my colleagues from the

17    Prosecution and the witness the rest of the documents that I intend to use

18    in my examination.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  I take it, Ms. Residovic, you may not finish by

20    10.00.

21            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think, Your Honour, your

22    estimate is quite correct.  However, as you see, certain things happen in

23    an unforeseeable way and we cannot entirely follow the schedule, and I

24    hope you will be accommodating, Your Honours.

25            Thank you very much.

Page 9129

 1       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, you remember that we left off yesterday on the

 2    events before the assembly of Macedonia on the 25th and 26th of June and

 3    the measures that the police force of Skopje in the Republic of Macedonia

 4    took to protect the Albanian population in one part of the town.  Correct?

 5       A.   Yes, I remember.

 6       Q.   Now, would you kindly look at this second set of documents, behind

 7    tab 34.

 8            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D131.  We need page

 9    N005-1053.  In English it is N005-1053-ET.

10       Q.   Do you have this document before you?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   At the top, it says that it's a document of the MVR of the

13    Republic of Macedonia, Skopje city, internal affairs sector.

14            Look at the document.  Tell me, who drafted this information?

15       A.   This information was prepared by the department for analysis at

16    the SVR Skopje.

17       Q.   And what is this report about?

18       A.   I believe that I already mentioned, in the previous session, that

19    on that particular date, there were major demonstrations in front of the

20    assembly of the Republic of Macedonia caused by our obligation to

21    facilitate a corridor; that is to say, to end the armed clashes in

22    Aracinovo and to allow the terrorists to leave the village.

23            This decision --

24       Q.   Thank you.  We heard that yesterday.  Just tell me, does this

25    report deal with the events of that day, as you testified yesterday?

Page 9130

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Now, would you kindly look behind tab 35.

 3          MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D130, page 1D4320, and

 4    1D4322 in English.

 5       Q.   Do you have that?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Tell me, who drafted it?

 8       A.   This information was drafted by the analytical services at the

 9    Ministry of Interior.

10       Q.   Tell me, does this report also describe the events you testified

11    about yesterday?

12       A.   According to what I'm able to see, yes.

13       Q.   You have explained the reasons for that clash yesterday, but you

14    also said that the police of Skopje, in 2001, faced other protests by

15    citizens.  Do you remember saying that yesterday?

16       A.   Yes.  Throughout the whole period of the crisis, there were

17    constant protests by dissatisfied citizens.

18       Q.   You also mentioned yesterday the events around Tetovo.  What about

19    them?  Did they also reflect on the security situation in Skopje?

20       A.   Very often, not even on a daily basis, the population from Tetovo

21    protested also in front of the assembly of the Republic of Macedonia.  One

22    cannot say that this was just people from Skopje therefore.  They came

23    from all areas under threat.  There was constant presence of population

24    dissatisfied by the measures that the MOI was undertaking to suppress

25    terrorism.

Page 9131

 1       Q.   Could you please look behind 36.

 2     MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D128.  Macedonian is 1D4 --

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch all the numbers.

 4            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D4295 is Macedonian, and 1D4298

 5    is English.

 6       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, we have another report here.  Do you know who

 7    drafted this one?

 8       A.   Yes.  This information was drafted by the analytics section at the

 9    SVR Skopje.

10       Q.   So it's the sector of internal affairs where you discharged the

11    functions of the assistant chief for crime police?

12       A.   Correct.

13       Q.   In view of the subject of this report, it says:  "The protest of

14    the residents of villages of Tetovo; many facilities and OSCE vehicles

15    were damaged."

16            Does this report indicate what you just said, that people,

17    residents of other places also came to Skopje to demonstrate?

18       A.   Yes.  I think this information reflects this.  These were very

19    tense situations, whereby part of the citizens expressed a revolt also

20    through attacks or damaging facilities in ownership of Albanians.

21       Q.   I would now like to ask you to look behind 37.

22          MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D126.  Page 1D4043 in

23    Macedonian, and 1D4046 ...

24       Q.   Do you have that?

25       A.   Yes, I see it.

Page 9132

 1       Q.   Before I ask any further questions, could you tell me, since you

 2    were the chief of crime police for Skopje, did competent authorities of

 3    the SVR and MVR, that is OVR, try to enforce the law; that is, to detect

 4    perpetrators of crimes that were committed during such demonstrations in

 5    Skopje?

 6       A.   In principle, the obligation, in circumstances such as these, was

 7    related to public peace and order.  However, when we have also criminal

 8    offences being committed, the obligation of the crime police is to become

 9    involved and to try to clear up these cases.

10       Q.   Now, tell me, since the subject of this report is that persons

11    guilty of disturbing public law and order and theft on the given date were

12    detected, what does it show?

13       A.   It provides an overview of the activities undertaken for

14    uncovering the perpetrators of criminal offences; that is to say, as far

15    as I can remember, we had brought in over 50 people.  For at least 30, we

16    were able to prove that they had committed criminal offences, and they

17    were, of course, processed before the competent authorities.

18       Q.   You said, a moment ago, that property was frequently threatened.

19    As far as you know, the perpetrators in these demonstrations were

20    endangering whose property?

21       A.   They threatened property which they believed was owned by

22    Albanians, which, in most cases, was so.  However, as police, we cannot

23    separate citizens.  They all have the right to the same kind of

24    protection.

25       Q.   As you said, in view of this report and the occasion of one such

Page 9133

 1    demonstration, you had identified over 50 persons and took them into

 2    custody.  Who were they by ethnicity, overwhelmingly?   Who were the

 3    persons you brought in and possibly took other measures?

 4       A.   Mostly, they were young people of Macedonian ethnicity.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters kindly ask for pause between

 6    questions and answers.

 7            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   Now, would you kindly look at tab 39.

 9            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D129.

10       Q.   Again, who wrote this report, Mr. Stojanovski?

11       A.   This information again originates from, or rather, is prepared by

12    the department for analysis at the SVR Skopje.

13       Q.   Does this report, too, confirm, as you testified, that

14    demonstrations happened almost daily with security repercussions in the

15    city?

16       A.   Yes.  I believe not a single day went by without protests, during

17    which the citizens expressed their dissatisfaction by attacks of

18    facilities owned by Albanians but also by attacks and damage of property

19    belonging to international organisations.  They felt that they were

20    responsible for part of the events in Macedonia.

21       Q.   Thank you.  Now, please look at tab 41.

22            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D127.  The number is

23    N004-9837, and the English version is 9837 to 9840-ET.

24       Q.   Do you have the document?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9134

 1       Q.   Who wrote this report?

 2       A.   The department for analysis at the SVR Skopje.

 3       Q.   Does this report, too, dealing with the protest of citizens of

 4    Skopje, damaging -- causing great damage to various buildings confirm your

 5    prior testimony?

 6       A.   Yes.  Perhaps the cause of the protest was somewhat different.

 7    Here we had a case of revolt of citizens provoked by the incident in the

 8    village of Ljuboten; that is to say, the terrorist attack that cost the

 9    lives of eight members of the Macedonian army.  This was an extremely

10    large protest.  The masses did not stay just in front of the assembly but

11    also moved through the city streets, and many -- and many criminal

12    offences were noted then.

13       Q.   Could you now turn to page 2.

14            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] N004-9838 in Macedonian.  In

15    English, I believe it's ...

16       Q.   It begins with:  "Otherwise due to disrupting of public law and

17    order damage of stores ..."

18            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we find that part in the

19    English version also?

20            This could be the same page, a few paragraphs above.  That means

21    the previous page in English.

22       Q.   At any rate, I'll read because it's the page before in

23    Macedonian:  "Otherwise due to participation in public law and order or

24    damage of stores and other business facilities as well as theft, about a

25    total of 46 people were brought in, in police stations Centar, Bit Pazar,

Page 9135

 1    and Kisela Voda, out of which 23 were minors.  Interviews were conducted

 2    with them, whereby it was established that 32 of them committed theft and

 3    damaged facilities."

 4            Does this part of the report confirm what you just said; namely,

 5    that around 50 persons were brought in that day?

 6       A.   Yes.  We undertook measures to that end; although, I must say that

 7    the number of criminal offences committed was high and we could not

 8    prevent it, because we were also engaged in preventing an interethnic

 9    clash between the Macedonians and Albanians.  Again, we had to establish

10    our priorities in this regard; but after the tensions were calmed, we

11    immediately undertook actions to find the perpetrators and to bring them

12    in.

13       Q.   Thank you.  In the passage I just read, it says that steps were

14    taken, they were brought to the police stations of Centar, Bit Pazar, and

15    Kisela Voda.

16            Does this sentence corroborate your testimony yesterday as to who

17    was in charge of taking steps when there are suspicions that a crime was

18    committed and some people are suspected of committing them?

19       A.   The Department of the Interior in the area of which the crimes

20    occurred.

21            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we turn to the next page of

22    this document.

23       Q.   As we see on this page, we have a large number of businesses

24    listed, those that were damaged or looted during the protests.

25            If you look at the list of businesses, do we see that most of them

Page 9136

 1    belonged to Albanians?

 2       A.   Yes.  Most of these businesses do belong to owners of Albanian

 3    ethnicity.

 4       Q.   Let us go back to the document we looked at a moment ago.

 5         MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's exhibit 1D126.  It is at tab 42.

 6       Q.   And here, too, we have a long list of names, if you look from page

 7    1043 in Macedonian and 1046 [as interpreted] in English, up to 1045 in

 8    Macedonian and 1D4047 in English.

 9            A large number of persons are listed here, the last number being

10    30.  Tell me, did these police stations, in fact, succeed in identifying

11    some of the perpetrators of crimes, and is this the list of persons

12    identified as such?

13       A.   Yes.  This information lists the persons who were uncovered as

14    perpetrators of criminal offences.  The police stations acted within their

15    competencies; and in view of the fact that these offences happened on the

16    territory of OVR Centar, as part of their activities, they submitted or

17    filed the relevant criminal report.

18       Q.   Could we now look together at the document at tab 43.

19            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's 65 ter 406, N004-9844; and

20    in English, it's 9844 to 45-ET.

21       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, who drafted this report?

22       A.   This one, too, was prepared by the department for analysis at the

23    SVR Skopje.

24       Q.   We read here about a vigorous action by the MVR to prevent things

25    from escalating into vandalism.

Page 9137

 1            Does this also deal with one of the protests by citizens and the

 2    efforts of the police of SVR Skopje to prevent these people from

 3    committing crimes?

 4       A.   Yes.  These were continuing, ongoing activities, by which we tried

 5    to protect the property of persons and the perpetration of criminal

 6    offences.

 7       Q.   I would like you to take now the third set of documents, which is

 8    not large.  We could look at a couple of documents only, and then we'll

 9    return to the documents we discussed now.

10            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Show first, please, the document

11    at tab 173.  That's 65 ter 1D1219.

12       Q.   What is this document, Mr. Stojanovski?

13       A.   Please give me a moment.

14       Q.   Behind tab 173.

15            Did you manage to find this document?  You see it on the screen

16    also.

17       A.   Yes, I see the document.  This is a criminal report filed against

18    four persons for theft during the protests.  This criminal report was

19    filed by the relevant department of the interior, because these crimes

20    were committed on the territory of OVR Centar.  It was they who undertook

21    measures and activities for uncovering these persons and filing the

22    criminal report as part of their regular activities.

23            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask the witness to pause

24    before answering his question.

25            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9138

 1       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, we were cautioned by the interpreters to make

 2    pauses between question and answer?

 3       A.   I apologise if I was speaking too quickly.

 4       Q.   You stated that it was filed by a competent body organ of internal

 5    affairs.  Where do you see in this report the note on which is the

 6    competent organ of internal affairs that filed this report?

 7       A.   According to this criminal report --

 8       Q.   I apologise.  Who is the title of this criminal report, if you are

 9    able to say that?

10       A.   From this criminal report, we can see that it was prepared by the

11    department for internal affairs, Skopje, OVR Skopje [as interpreted], who

12    are responsible for this case, having in mind that these offences happened

13    on their territory.

14       Q.   I apologise, I heard the translation "OVR Skopje," while I think

15    you said OVR something else, because OVR Skopje I never heard you mention

16    that before.  So I kindly ask you to repeat which was the OVR that filed

17    this criminal report?

18       A.   I believe I said that it was the OVR Centar.  My apologies if I

19    made a mistake.

20       Q.   Very well.  The translation of this document is in the e-court; it

21    is not in the binder.

22            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We omitted this translation by

23    mistake so I apologise to Their Honours and to my colleagues.  They can

24    see it on the screen only.

25       Q.   Would you please look at the final page of this document?

Page 9139

 1            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 1D1793.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4       Q.   Who has signed this document?

 5       A.   There report is signed by the manager, the head of OVR Centar at

 6    the time, Mr. Trajkovski, as part of -- as part of his competencies.

 7       Q.   So the signatory to this report corroborates your notion on who is

 8    in charge of filing a criminal report.  Have I understood you well?

 9       A.   Of course.

10       Q.   You stated that this was a criminal report filed against four

11    persons because of the protests in Skopje.  Tell me, who were those

12    persons:  Aleksovski, Saso; Tripunovski, Goce; Metodijas, Miluv; and

13    Tripunovski, Nikola?  What is their ethnicity?

14       A.   According to the criminal report, these are citizens of Macedonian

15    ethnicity.

16       Q.   Thank you.  Would you please now look at the document after tab

17    174.

18            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 65 ter 1D1220.  The

19    Macedonian page is 1D9794.  This document also has a partial translation

20    included in this binder.  This is draft translation, and it was not

21    uploaded to the e-court because we just secured the draft translation

22    today.

23       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, if you look now at this criminal report, could

24    you tell us whether it was produced by the competent bodies and which are

25    those competent bodies, and who were the perpetrators this criminal

Page 9140

 1    offence that was reported?

 2       A.   This criminal report is filed by OVR Centar.  It is drafted by the

 3    department for operative measures, activities.  That's the department

 4    which carried out the criminalistic activities within the OVR.  And, once

 5    again, these are perpetrators of Macedonian ethnicity.

 6            And in accordance with the rules, it is signed by the head of the

 7    OVR Centar; that is to say, the responsible OVR.

 8       Q.   Could you tell us who are the injured parties, as reading from

 9    this criminal report?

10       A.   I don't understand your question.  I don't know the persons.

11    However, from this report, we can see that these are people of Macedonian

12    ethnicity, if this is what you had in mind.

13       Q.   Persons who are suspects in this report?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   In the second page, you say:  "Namely, on the 8th of August, 2001,

16    at the critical time between 2000 and 2200 hours, they went to the centre

17    of the city, more precisely the parliament building, in order to express

18    their protests for the deteriorated security situation in the Republic of

19    Macedonia."

20            So I'm interested to learn whether this criminal report was filed

21    on the occasion of all these events that were -- that took place when the

22    protests were taking place, those that we were looking at before?

23       A.   Yes.  This criminal report is also a part of these activities or

24    related to these activities.

25       Q.   Let's look now at the document in tab 175.

Page 9141

 1            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 65 ter 1D1221.  Macedonian

 2    page is 1D9797.

 3            And this is, again, a translation, Your Honours, that we did not

 4    manage to upload in the e-court, but you have it in your binders.

 5       Q.   Tell us, whether we have, again, a criminal report submitted by

 6    the competent body on the occasion of those same events?

 7  A. Yes.  From the title, I can see that this is the Centar Department of the

 8  Interior, or rather the section for operative affairs, a criminal report for

 9  criminal offences of theft on the territory of OVR Centar perpetrated by

10  three persons of Macedonian ethnicity, and also related and of the time when

11  a large group of people were expressing their revolt due to the security

12  situation in the Republic of Macedonia.

13            And, lastly, we can see that it is signed by the head of the OVR

14    Skopje, which I said was responsible -- Centar, OVR Centar, which, as I

15    said, was the responsible OVR.

16       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, answering one of my questions just previously,

17    you stated that you paid no attention to the identity of the injured

18    parties because, for you, all citizens were equal.

19            Tell me, please, during your career and during your work in 2001,

20    what was, as far as you know and in your opinion, what was the attitude of

21    the SVR and especially the crime police that you headed, did it make any

22    distinction when uncovering the crimes and perpetrators, based on the

23    ethnicity?

24       A.   The police must be understood as service of the citizens.  It is

25    not -- it is not to be bound by any kind of ethnic delineations.  We are

Page 9142

 1    duty-bound to secure the same kind of protection, the same services, I

 2    would say, towards all citizens, because, ultimately, not only are we

 3    duty-bound by legal regulations to do this, but we are also paid with

 4    taxpayers' money of Macedonian [as interpreted] ethnicity.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Let's go now to another topic.

 6            You'll remember that we discussed yesterday the security situation

 7    assessment and the fact that this assessment was made by the OVRs, because

 8    they were best placed to know the situation in the field --

 9       A.   Excuse me.  May I intervene into the translation?

10       Q.   Yes.  Yes, please go ahead?

11       A.   I believe in 14:7, line 14:7, it should state, and I believe I

12    said, "all ethnicities," not just Macedonian ethnicity.  I do not want to

13    be misinterpreted.

14       Q.   Thank you.  Thank you very much.

15            You remember saying yesterday that the OVRs, the departments of

16    internal affairs, were in charge of assessing the security situation

17    during that crisis time and to establish the number of check-points within

18    a given area, in order to be able to control the situation in the

19    territory they covered.

20            This would be a brief summary of our discussion yesterday.  Do you

21    remember that?

22       A.   Yes, I remember.

23       Q.   And could you tell me, in these check-points, in 2001, how many

24    people were deployed there, if you can remember?

25       A.   As I said, on the basis of the assessment which each OVR made for

Page 9143

 1    its own territory, they decided on the location and the number of

 2    employees who would be deployed there, to carry out the tasks provided for

 3    on those check-points.

 4            I could not say with certainty how many people deployed -- were

 5    deployed by the OVR, but I can give an average, at least to my

 6    understanding.  There were check-points with five employees; there were

 7    check-points with 15 deployed employees.  It is within this scope of

 8    numbers.

 9       Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's look at the document in tab 144, please.

10    That is --

11       A.   This is the previous file, the previous binder?

12       Q.   Yes, sir.  Let's leave aside this third binder.  We just saw three

13    criminal reports from it.

14            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  It is not 144, but 44; maybe

15    I misspoke.  That is Exhibit 1D182.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat it, which

17    document we're looking at?

18            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We're looking at the document

19    after tab 44.  That is Exhibit 1D182.  Macedonian page is 1D1549 and the

20    English page is 1D5152 --

21            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Macedonian page

22    1D5149.

23            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Tell me, what is this document and who is the body competent to

25    issue it?

Page 9144

 1       A.   This is an overview which was drafted as -- by OVR Cair.  On the

 2    basis of their security assessment, they prepared an overview of places

 3    where there is possibilities for appearance of Albanian terrorists and

 4    buildings of vital importance which could be targeted for attacks in the

 5    area of OVR Cair; I will say it again, on the basis of their security

 6    assessment.

 7       Q.   Would you please look now at the page 1D5151.

 8            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 1D5155 in the English

 9    version.

10       Q.   What is this document, actually?

11       A.   This document lists the check-points, which OVR Cair established

12    in its area.  These check-points - that is to say, this document - was

13    drafted by the deputy commander of police station Cair.

14       Q.   Thank you.  You stated, yesterday, that it had been possible,

15    depending on the security situation, to modify the check-points in a given

16    area.  So could you repeat now who was in charge of performing such

17    alterations?

18       A.   The assessment of the security situation are updated and adjusted

19    to the current situation.  This is normal.  And once certain changes are

20    noted, usually the commander of the police station is the one who proposes

21    changes in the plan; and these proposal, these plans are approved by the

22    competent head of OVR Cair, the responsible OVR for a given territory.

23       Q.   Thank you.  Could we now look please at the document in tab 45.

24            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is 1D183.  Page is 1D5157 in

25    Macedonian, while the English page is 1D5160.

Page 9145

 1       Q.   Before I ask you questions in relation to this document --

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   -- does the OVR, regardless of whether it is the OVR Cair or any

 4    other, after establishing the security situation and after defining the

 5    number of check-points, does it inform anyone about it?

 6       A.   Yes.  In view of the security situation, as I said yesterday, in

 7    SVR Skopje, there was an operative headquarters.  This amendment to the

 8    plan, which was prepared by police station Mirkovci and approved by the

 9    head of OVR Cair, was probably submitted to the headquarters of SVR

10    Skopje, in view of the fact that the headquarters had to be informed and

11    notified of the deployment of check-points in the area of OVR Cair, so

12    that we could provide assistance in the case of need.

13       Q.   At the top of the document, something is written in handwriting.

14    Could you read that, Mr. Stojanovski, please?

15       A.   Yes.  It says that this is addressed to "ZAM."  This is an

16    abbreviation.

17            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  This is an abbreviation,

18    probably, Deputy Pero Stojanov.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is probably addressed to me; and

20    at that time, I was probably at the headquarters of the SVR Skopje.

21            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

23            Now, Mr. Stojanovski, I will ask you to look at the documents that

24    are in your set from tab 46 to tab 57; and in the next couple of minutes,

25    could you please look carefully, first of all, at the nature of the

Page 9146

 1    documents, what they are about.

 2            And before I ask my question, we'll look together at the first

 3    one.

 4            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's tab 46, P545.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see the document.

 6            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   Can you tell me who issued it?

 8       A.   This is an order for conducting duties issued by the police

 9    station Cair.  So we can see further on who were the officers that this

10    order was pertaining to.  These specific tasks are enumerated.  The

11    deadline within which they need to be performed; as well as, at the end,

12    it says that six officers were deployed and each them had spent six hours

13    working.

14       Q.   So, in this last line, where we see 6 times 12, that means that

15    with this order the police station ordered that six persons be engaged for

16    12 hours each.  Did I understand this correctly?

17       A.   Yes.  You have the number of people; then the number of hours; and

18    the total number of man hours for the people comprised by the order.

19       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, I asked you a moment ago - and I'm going to ask

20    you again - to look at documents from 46 to 57.  All of them are similar

21    orders for performing certain duties, and pay attention to the number of

22    persons who were deployed within this time at various check-points.

23            While you're looking at this, I will just give the numbers of the

24    documents that you are viewing because of the transcript.

25            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P545, Exhibit

Page 9147

 1    P491, Exhibit 1D283, Exhibit 1D284, 65 ter 1D1149, Exhibit P539, Exhibit

 2    P540, Exhibit P492, Exhibit P538, Exhibit P160 -- no, I apologise.  Maybe

 3    we need to skip P160, because this is not the same document.

 4            Exhibit P34, under seal; Exhibit P541.

 5       Q.   Had you managed to look at it -- to look at them, rather?

 6       A.   Yes.  I looked at the orders, and I can't see anything unusual

 7    about them.

 8            Was your question referring to --

 9       Q.   The number of persons deployed at these check-points, is it

10    normal?  As you said, it could vary from five to 15.  Did you notice any

11    extraordinary changes in the number of persons manning check-points?

12       A.   Yes.  I said that the average number of deployed officers ranged

13    between five and 15, but I can see here that in some situations even less

14    people were deployed.

15       Q.   Were you able to observe in these orders that they relate to the

16    10th, 11th, and 12th August?  Is that so?

17       A.   I did not pay attention to that.  Just a moment, please.

18            Yes, it is so.

19       Q.   Were you able to observe any major variations in the number of

20    persons in relation to the days when the orders were issued?

21       A.   I believe it is the usual number.

22       Q.   Before I move on, I will ask you, Mr. Stojanovski, considering

23    that we don't have official CLSS translations for these documents, to read

24    the exact title of this order in Macedonian.

25       A.   So the title is:  "Order for performing duties," if this is what

Page 9148

 1    you're referring to --

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  "Order for carrying

 3    out service."

 4            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5       Q.   Now, in light of what you have seen and said, could you pay

 6    attention only to these orders for carrying out service that relate to the

 7    12th of August.  Could you look at all those documents again and

 8    concentrate on the 12th of August.

 9       A.   I believe that I saw the documents with the date 12th of August.

10       Q.   Tell me, did you notice on these documents an increase in the

11    number of persons manning check-points compared to the other documents?

12    Can you conclude on that basis that something unusual was going on, in

13    view of the normal number you testified to?

14       A.   There is no increase in the number of persons manning the

15    check-points.  I would say it is at the minimum, rather.

16       Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who Ljupco Bliznakovski is?

17       A.   Yes.  Mr. Bliznakovski was the assistant to the head of the SVR,

18    Skopje, in charge of the uniformed police.  We had adjacent offices, and

19    we had held the same rank.

20       Q.   What would you say if anyone testified before this Court that

21    Ljupco Bliznakovski had ordered the chief of OVR Cair to reinforce the

22    check-points?  What would you say about such an allegation?

23       A.   I believe that, to say the least, this would not really correspond

24    to the true situation, for at least two reasons:  First of all,

25    Mr. Bliznakovski, I said already, we held the same rank, which means that

Page 9149

 1    he could not issue an order to the head of the OVR, on the one hand; while

 2    the second reason would be that the check-points were under the competence

 3    of the OVR, and I don't see a reason why anyone would say that.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Let us now move on to another subject.

 5            I'd like to ask you about your knowledge of the events between the

 6    10th and 12th August 2001 in the area of Cair municipality; in particular,

 7    Ljuboten village and the surrounding villages.

 8            Did you have any knowledge about the events that happened in that

 9    area on the 10th August 2001?

10       A.   In accordance with the established information flow system,

11    information on the situation and on the events were arriving to both the

12    cabinet of the SVR Skopje and the headquarters of the SVR Skopje and also

13    to the duty operations centre of the SVR Skopje, and I can say that I had

14    the information and that I was relatively well-informed about what was

15    going on.

16       Q.   Did any particular report stick in your memory, something that you

17    received on Friday, the 10th August?  Did anything particularly memorable

18    happen?

19       A.   I believe that that was the date when, in the morning, within the

20    area covered by OVR Cair, eight members of the army of the Republic of

21    Macedonia were killed.

22       Q.   In light of that fact that was reported to you in some way, did

23    the police inform the judiciary; in other words, did you perform an

24    on-site investigation?

25       A.   Since after this terrorist action -- since in that terrorist

Page 9150

 1    action the army suffered casualties, and since this specific area was

 2    under their control, we established some contacts aiming towards

 3    performing an on-site investigation.  However, the measures undertaken

 4    were undertaken by the army of the Republic of Macedonia.  If memory

 5    serves, we contacted either the military police or the army command, and

 6    they stated that they would undertake measure together with the

 7    investigating judge for this purpose.

 8       Q.   Tell me, please, in relation to these incidents, did you talk to

 9    the chief of OVR Cair?

10       A.   I can't say with certainty who informed me about the incident.  It

11    is possible that it was the head, chief of the OVR Cair; and, probably, we

12    did have communication regarding the decision who will make the on-site

13    investigation, whether it would be the SVR Skopje with its forensic

14    department that will assist the investigating judge, or whether it is

15    to be done by the army.  And as I said before, that was done by the army

16    at the end.

17       Q.   On that day, did you also learn that some armed persons had

18    entered the village?

19       A.   If we're speaking about --

20       Q.   The 10th.

21       A.   If we're speaking about the 10th alone, yes, there were such

22    information that individuals entered the village; although, we had

23    previously information about their presence in that area.

24       Q.   Would you now briefly look at documents from tab 60 -- that is 59,

25    sorry.  Then 60, 61, 62, 63, 64.  Then tell me, after reviewing them, if

Page 9151

 1    those are reports that you had available to you at the time or maybe

 2    later.

 3            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Those are Exhibits P158, P112,

 4    P150, P1 -- sorry, 1D145, P151, and P114, under seal.

 5       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, were these reports available to you at that time

 6    or later?  Did you know about the things contained in these documents?

 7       A.   Yes.  I am familiar with the information and the materials.  I

 8    can't say precisely when was the first time I saw them; but with regards

 9    to their content, yes, I'm familiar with that.

10            That is an Official Note produced by the Mirkovci police station,

11    which indicates that an army vehicle was hit on a mine -- by a mine and

12    eight soldiers were killed.  Then it is a telegram where the cabinet of

13    the SVR Skopje is informed of --

14       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, I just asked to you review the documents because

15    they have been admitted into evidence already.  I just wanted to ask you

16    if these reports were available to you.  There's no need to look into each

17    of them individually.

18            In relation to that day, the 10th, did the chief of OVR Cair, to

19    the best of your recollection, talk to you about a meeting; and if he did,

20    tell me, what was that discussion about?

21       A.   I believe that in the afternoon I was informed, or I do not know

22    whether the word "informed" is appropriate.  He phoned me and asked for my

23    advice regarding some issue that the army was convening some working

24    meeting.  I believe that it was related to the Ljubanci village.

25       Q.   And what was your answer to the chief when he asked you about

Page 9152

 1    that; can you remember?

 2       A.   It was a bit unusual, the reason for him calling me.  I believe

 3    that I told him that, if I were in his shoes, I would like to know what

 4    was going on in -- in the area I'm covering; and it was usual, normal, to

 5    have contacts with the army anyhow.  So I could not understand the point

 6    of his phone call.

 7       Q.   Did the chief of OVR Cair ever call you again, after asking you

 8    for your advice?

 9       A.   I can't state with certainty, but I believe that he did call me

10    and said -- yes.  He mentioned the army, that allegedly the army was

11    planning some activities but also that it did not entail any obligation.

12    No obligations relevant for us were given at that meeting.

13            JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time?

14            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

15            JUDGE PARKER:  We'll take the first break now and resume at 11.00.

16                          --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

17                          --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Residovic.

19            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20       Q.   We discussed a moment ago what you had learned, what information

21    you had on the 10th of August.

22            Tell me, please, Mr. Stojanovski, before we move on to the 11th,

23    in the course of your work, who do you normally contact?  Who are all the

24    persons you are in touch with?

25       A.   Usually, I contact the heads of the OVR.  It is usual that I

Page 9153

 1    contact the heads of organisational units I was superior to; further on,

 2    members of international organisations.  Very often, I had many contacts

 3    with my colleagues about issues of different nature.

 4       Q.   Speaking of your contacts with chiefs of departments of internal

 5    affairs or criminal investigation sections of these departments, tell me,

 6    how many such calls did you receive at the time of crisis?

 7       A.   This was an enormous number of calls, discussions, and

 8    conversations.  I believe that I had at least two hours of conversations

 9    on my cell phone, not to mention the other two phones.  I had an external

10    line, an internal line in the ministry.  Indeed, an enormous number of

11    conversations.

12       Q.   This morning we saw documents that dealt with these events and

13    incidents of vandalism in Skopje after the report of the killing of the

14    soldier at Karpalak.  Did that incident cause any involvement on your

15    part; and if so, to what extent?

16       A.   I'm not sure, but I believe I mentioned that the situation was

17    extremely tense, critical; that we had very limited resources available;

18    that the crime police was not fully staffed; and from that number, about

19    50 per cent had to be given as assistance to uniformed police.

20            We faced a situation where people had to be engaged in Radusa, one

21    of the hot spots that put one million strong city under threat to be left

22    without water.  There were daily problems in front of the assembly.  We

23    had problems with the airport because around the village of Aracinovo

24    terrorists were noted, which could have threatened the security of the

25    airport.

Page 9154

 1            Further, we had problems with the roads Skopje-Pristina, an

 2    international highway which we were duty-bound to keep open and which

 3    was -- there were many attempts to block this road because it was an

 4    international road, and KFOR also used this road for logistics for their

 5    forces in Kosovo.

 6            There were terrorist group in the city itself.  They killed our

 7    police officers, whether it be in a store or on the street.  I believe the

 8    situation was extremely dire.

 9       Q.   I think you have sufficiently described the circumstances in which

10    you worked; and in view of that situation, do you still remember what

11    happened on the 11th of August that still stands out in your memory?

12       A.   The most major event, if I can say this, on this date was the very

13    violent clashes in Radusa.  This is a place nearby Skopje, from where the

14    capital is -- receives its water supply.  We had police forces surrounded

15    by terrorists and under constant attack.

16       Q.   How do you know about that incident in Radusa?  Because the combat

17    activities of the army and the police force are not strictly within your

18    competence.

19       A.   On the one hand, I said that I was a member of the operative

20    headquarters Skopje; and, on the other, I mentioned that my colleague,

21    Bliznakovski, was next to my office.  He was located in the office next to

22    mine, and we were close by.  We exchanged information.  We usually knew

23    what the other one was working, and he directly involved in this clash.

24    Together, with the special unit, they went to Radusa in order to help the

25    colleagues who were surrounded by terrorists at that time, and he tried to

Page 9155

 1    extract them.  He tried to help them.

 2            I believe this was happening in the course of the whole day, and

 3    it was only by night-fall that the situation became calmer.  This is when

 4    he came back to the premises of the SVR.

 5       Q.   In view of what you know about the incidents of the 11th in

 6    Radusa, what would you say if it were to be established before this Court

 7    that on that day your colleague, Mr. Ljupco Bliznakovski, had attended a

 8    meeting at the command of the city, and then issued an order to the chief

 9    of OVR Cair to reinforce check-points in his area?

10            How would you comment on that, in view of what you know about the

11    events at the time?  Would that be consistent with your information?

12       A.   I think I explained previously that Mr. Bliznakovski --

13            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  But in line 20, it

14    says:  [in English]... Court established that on that day ..."

15            [Interpretation] I didn't say that the Court established anything.

16    I said, "if it were to be established before this Court"; that is, if

17    anyone claimed before this Court.

18       Q.   Can you tell me, in view of what you know from that time --

19       A.   Excuse me.  Shall I continue my answer?

20       Q.   Maybe you should repeat, since I interrupted you.

21       A.   As I explained previously, the position of Mr. Bliznakovski did

22    not allow him to issue orders.  However, in view of the fact that I

23    personally know where he was, this statement would most probably, would

24    certainly be a lie.

25       Q.   Tell me, Mr. Stojanovski, did there come a time when the chief of

Page 9156

 1    OVR Cair called you and asked you anything about that alleged meeting at

 2    the city command of Skopje on the 11th of August?

 3       A.   There was no such thing.  I'm sure of this.  This did not happen.

 4       Q.   Before these dates - the 10th, the 11th - or during those days,

 5    that is, within several weeks of these events or at the time of the

 6    events, did the chief of OVR Cair ever mention to you or indicate to you

 7    that he received a call at his home from Minister Ljube Boskoski?

 8       A.   I don't believe this happened.  He has not notified me.

 9       Q.   Did the chief of OVR Cair ever tell you or inform you or asked you

10    for advice in relation to the alleged order of the minister that he would

11    send to him Johan Tarculovski and that the minister told him on that

12    occasion that he should give Johan Tarculovski anything he asks for?

13            Were you aware of any such thing?

14       A.   If I understand you correctly, allegedly the minister called the

15    head of OVR Cair?

16       Q.   Yes.  And told him to receive a certain person, as I said, Johan

17    Tarculovski, and provide him with everything he asks for.

18       A.   Such information, I did not receive such information.

19       Q.   You said, yesterday, that in practice you never heard that the

20    minister had ever issued any order to anyone, including you; although, you

21    were in a higher position.  Is that consistent with the answer that you

22    just gave, that you had never heard of such a thing?

23       A.   In my professional experience, up until now, I have no knowledge

24    of information for this manner of communication.

25       Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Tell me, please, Mr. Stojanovski, on the

Page 9157

 1    10th or the 11th, did the chief of OVR Cair ask you about anything else,

 2    to the best of your recollection?

 3       A.   I cannot recall.

 4       Q.   If somebody were to ask you whether they should distribute weapons

 5    to certain persons, would you remember that?

 6       A.   I would most probably remember, because, if you forgive me, this

 7    is kind of a stupid question.

 8       Q.   Why do you say it's not a normal question?

 9       A.   It is completely outside of my competencies.  Crime police and

10    distribution of weapons, they don't go together, these two things.

11       Q.   If anyone claimed before this Court that you had issued an order

12    to distribute weapons to certain persons at OVR Cair, what would you say

13    to that?

14       A.   That it's a lie.

15       Q.   Tell me, please, on the 10th or the 11th, did anyone inform you

16    that Manager Mitevski had issued an order to distribute weapons to certain

17    persons?

18       A.   Such -- I have not received such information; although, once

19    again, I don't see the logic that the direction -- director would issue

20    orders to that extent.

21       Q.   Are there any regulations in the Ministry of Internal Affairs

22    governing this matter?

23       A.   Yes, there are regulations.  And, in addition to these

24    regulations, there is an organisational unit which is duty-bound to carry

25    out these regulations.  I can speak about the example of SVR Skopje, where

Page 9158

 1    there was a department for defence preparations.  This was within their

 2    competencies, and each OVR also had people who were charged with these

 3    matters.

 4       Q.   If anyone claimed before this Court that Director Mitevski had

 5    issued an order to distribute weapons to certain persons and that you had

 6    agreed to that and ordered that this instruction of Director Mitevski be

 7    carried out, what would you say to that?

 8       A.   Again, I would say that, in the least, that this is a stupid

 9    assertion, because my position, as assistant, to give consent to an order

10    of a superior, which is much higher up in the hierarchy than I am, is not

11    logical.  I don't think there is any need to comment on this.

12       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Let us move now to events of the 12th of

13    August.

14            On the 12th of August, did you receive any reports to the effect

15    that something was going on in Ljuboten or the environs?

16       A.   I don't know exactly at what time, but it was during the morning

17    hours that I received the information that the army and police points in

18    and around Ljuboten were attacked.

19       Q.   In addition to that report, did you receive any other reports

20    during that day?

21       A.   I cannot claim with certainty, but I believe it was the head of

22    OVR Cair who informed me that the army had undertaken adequate activities.

23       Q.   Did Chief Krstevski call you again later during that week, one

24    morning or around noon, or is it the case that you had no other calls from

25    him?

Page 9159

 1       A.   I believe, yes.  He called regarding -- he was asking me how a

 2    report is given.

 3       Q.   And why?  Why did you ask you that?

 4       A.   He was informed by the duty centre that Mr. Boskoski, the Minister

 5    of the Interior, will be visiting this area, and he was asking me how this

 6    official report is given.  This was rather funny, because, as civilian

 7    structures, we don't deal with this issue.  Reporting is not part of the

 8    tasks which we have or the way we act.  I suggested to him that, according

 9    to my view, it is quite sufficient that he present a brief information

10    about the situation in the area.

11       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, that afternoon, did you have any contacts with

12    the chief or did any reports reach you about what was going on in the area

13    of OVR Cair, Ljuboten, Ljubanci, Radisani, and other places?

14       A.   In the afternoon, we began to receive quite some information,

15    stating that part of the population is attempting to leave the village,

16    and that some persons were brought in or were taken by the army and handed

17    over to the police.  I believe that there were not so much different but

18    information of this kind as activities unfolded.

19       Q.   About those first reports you received, that some people were

20    taken into custody and brought into the police station, at the time you

21    received those first reports, was there any talk about taking some steps

22    that are usual in the work of crime police?

23       A.   In view of the fact that the military action -- in the course of

24    the military action, persons with weapons were imprisoned or - I don't

25    know which term to use - were brought in or taken in.  This was a

Page 9160

 1    situation that required the involvement of the crime police, in order to

 2    clarify the case.  These persons were taken into custody in the police

 3    station Mirkovci, and the crime police of OVR Cair began working on

 4    clarifying the case.

 5       Q.   What you just said, taking people into custody, starting an

 6    investigation, all that began in the OVR Cair, are all these activities

 7    normally within the purview of OVR Cair, and why was it that OVR Cair was

 8    in charge of that, if they were?

 9       A.   I believe I have mentioned previously that for all activities that

10    happened on the territory of a given OVR, it is that OVR that is

11    duty-bound to undertake certain measures.  In this case, this was an event

12    that happened on the territory of OVR Cair; and, therefore, this was the

13    obligation and task of that OVR to work on that case.  There were no

14    requests for assistance or support from SVR -- to SVR Skopje to help on

15    this case.

16            We received information that about ten persons were brought in

17    with weapons in the police station Mirkovci, that members of the crime

18    police of OVR Cair are already working and are interviewing some of the

19    persons, and that some of the persons were injured and these were provided

20    medical assistance.  There was no reason for us to become involved or to

21    secure any kind of support for them.

22       Q.   Is it the case that you received some other reports that afternoon

23    relating to incidents at check-points or perhaps the arrest and bringing

24    in of other persons into police stations?

25       A.   Yes.  The day was interesting, if I may say so, with regards to

Page 9161

 1    the events that took place then.  I was informed that one part of the

 2    population of Ljuboten village were moving towards the check-points and

 3    trying to leave the village; and that, at the same time, the population of

 4    Ljubanci and Radisani were preparing to accost them and they did accost

 5    them, unfortunately, and there were -- there had already been incidents

 6    between them.

 7            I believe that it was then that the SVR Skopje was involved for

 8    the first time.  Mr. Bliznakovski, upon the order of Mr. Galevski, who

 9    died in the meantime, as you know, he organised the involvement of the

10    posebna unit in the resolving of these events, from the -- in order to

11    prevent or, actually, to save the Albanian population that was leaving the

12    village because it was accosted and ill-treated, if I may say so, by the

13    Macedonian population.  The OVR Cair was not able, having in mind its

14    capacities, to put this under control.

15       Q.   Regarding the tasks of the crime police, you said that you

16    received certain reports as to what had been done in the Mirkovci police

17    station and all that was usual, normal procedure, and you were not

18    involved in any way.

19            Now, regarding other people who were arrested, did the OVR make

20    any requests for assistance with regard to them?

21       A.   Yes.  With regards to the Mirkovci police station, it was like

22    that; but later on, the chief of the OVR Cair, I believe, although I can't

23    say with certainty whether it was the chief of the OVR Cair or the chief

24    of the department for operations, Mr. Josevski, informed me that there

25    were many detained persons, and they were lacking sufficient capacities to

Page 9162

 1    keep them in the police stations.

 2            Also, they informed that among those persons who were brought

 3    there, there were individuals who they believed had participated in the

 4    armed activities; so terrorists, so to say, who were leaving their

 5    weapons, changing their clothes, and trying to leave that area together

 6    with the population.

 7            I established contact with the chief of the organised crime and

 8    coordination department, Mr. Bojic, and he undertook certain measures to

 9    secure a room in other police station to transfer the detainees there.  I

10    believe that I had contacts with the head of the forensic department,

11    and I requested that he provided as many teams as possible that

12    would make the paraffin glove tests in order to secure evidence that the

13    OVR Cair would need later in order to verify those assertions.

14       Q.   Mr. Stojanovski, that afternoon, were you aware that there were

15    people dead in Ljuboten?

16       A.   Yes.  I believe that somewhere in the evening such information

17    arrived.  I believe it was sent from the Mirkovci police station by the

18    duty officer.  I believe that it spoke of five individuals who were

19    allegedly killed during the fights there, and I believe that that

20    information was processed and that the duty operations centre of SVR

21    Skopje informed the investigating judge about that case.

22       Q.   Do you know whether an on-site investigation was carried out on

23    the 12th?

24       A.   Regarding -- as far as I know, the investigating judge, I believe,

25    went to the OVR Cair.  However, whether he went there and whether he spoke

Page 9163

 1    to the chief of the OVR Cair, I can't really remember.  But whatever else

 2    happened, he did not accept to have an on-site investigation in such

 3    security situation.

 4       Q.   I will now ask you, Mr. Stojanovski, in order to move on more

 5    quickly through this examination, to look at documents starting with tab

 6    68 to tab 80.

 7            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, this is

 8    Exhibit P155, under seal; P395; P23, under seal; P160; then P257; P160;

 9    P106, under seal; P157, under seal; P154, under seal; P155, under seal;

10    P107, under seal; 65 ter number 488; P147.

11       Q.   As you look at this, you see that, for the most part, these

12    documents relate to the 12th of August, 2001.

13            Mr. Stojanovski, now that you have reviewed a number of documents

14    dated 12th August 2001, could you tell me whether they corroborate the

15    information that was available to you on the 12th; and if so, to what

16    extent; and, second, whether you had seen them before?

17       A.   I skimmed through the documents now quickly, and I believe they do

18    correspond to what I testified to previously.  And with regards to where

19    have I seen these documents, I can't be certain, since it is possible that

20    I had seen them then, but it is also possible that I had seen them later

21    during the work of the committee.  So I couldn't say with certainty when

22    it was that I had seen those documents for the first time, then or a bit

23    later --

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  In line 35.7, "when"

25    instead of "where."

Page 9164

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But as I said, I believe that these

 2    documents reflect what was also included in my testimony about these

 3    events.

 4            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   You just mentioned some committee or commission.  I'm not sure

 6    what you said.  What was that about?  You said, "during the work," as we

 7    have on the record, "of the committee."  What was that about?  What work

 8    and what body was it?

 9       A.   One day later, on the 13th of August, I was informed by

10    Mr. Efremov, who was then the chief of the SVR Skopje, that the minister

11    established a committee to investigate the events that took place at

12    Ljuboten.  I had not seen that document, and Mr. Efremov tasked me with

13    being, in a way, the contact person for the work with the committee.

14       Q.   On the 12th, did you at all go to OVR Cair or perhaps the area

15    where the events happened?

16       A.   No.  There was no need of my presence there.

17       Q.   And if anyone claimed before this Court that, on the evening of

18    the 12th, you were at OVR Cair, would that jog your memory, that you,

19    indeed, had gone there, or what would you say about that?

20       A.   This is not true, and I don't know what were the reasons for such

21    assertions.  I couldn't comment on that.

22       Q.   What was the first time that you went to the area of Cair

23    municipality after these events?

24       A.   It was on the 14th of August.  Mr. Efremov tasked me with that.

25    And, chronologically speaking, on the 13th, in the afternoon, Mr. Efremov

Page 9165

 1    informed me of the existence of that committee and my duties towards that

 2    committee.  And since no on-site investigation was conducted in the area

 3    of the village of Ljuboten on the previous day because of the security

 4    situation then, I believe that he had certain contacts with an MP,

 5    Mr. Fatmir Etemi, in order to bring the situation to a calm, so that we

 6    can carry out the on-site investigation in Ljuboten.

 7            And, at the same time, since the minister showed his interest in

 8    this event, he requested that I be directly physically present during the

 9    on-site investigation, so that I could have the first-hand information on

10    the events in the village.  That was probably the idea.

11            But during the afternoon, during that communication with the MP

12    and with the court, the evening came, darkness fell.  The conditions were

13    not proper to perform the on-site investigation, and it was decided to do

14    it on the following day.

15       Q.   That was the 14th of August.

16       A.   Yes, the 14th of August.

17       Q.   And did the court assign a team or did you go there as well as you

18    were assigned to by your chief?

19       A.   I'm not certain.  I believe that Mr. Stavrev was the investigating

20    judge, and I went to the premises of the OVR Cair, together with the

21    forensics police team.  We meet there the Chief Krstevski, and we worked

22    in his office.  I did follow the conversation.  The situation was very

23    interesting.  Mr. Efremov was not present, but he contacted Mr. Ademi --

24            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Mr. Etemi.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Etemi relayed information to

Page 9166

 1    Mr. Efremov that it is possible to enter the village; and, at the same

 2    time, after this conversation, he would call Mr. Krstevski telling him

 3    that it was not possible to enter the village.  So this all went on three

 4    or four times.

 5            After that, there was some attempts made to reach a bargain or

 6    agreement that the investigating judge would enter the village alone, that

 7    the police would not enter the village with him, but the investigating

 8    judge refused this and some sporadic fire was heard.

 9            After several hours of going towards the village, going back and

10    forth, I believe that Mr. Etemi reported that the bodies were already

11    buried, and the investigating judge decided that we would leave the

12    location, that the on-site investigation would be illogical in the

13    circumstances.

14            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Upon that decision of the investigating judge not to go in, to go

16    back and then come back again, was the police, in any way, able to

17    influence him?

18       A.   Probably.  I'm not an expert for theoretical explanation of law,

19    but I believe I managed to explain yesterday that the investigating judge

20    is superior in such cases, and that the police has no possibility to

21    influence his decisions.

22       Q.   Would you please now look at tab 119.

23      MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's document 1D6.  It's page N000-7350;

24    and in English, it's 7350 to 7351.

25       Q.   As we can see, this is an Official Note of the Lower Court of

Page 9167

 1    Skopje II, the investigation department.  Have you ever had occasion to

 2    see this document before?

 3       A.   No, I haven't seen this document.

 4       Q.   Can you turn to page 2 of this document.  And at the bottom of

 5    that page, you will see Investigating Judge Ognen Stavrev.  Is that the

 6    judge you mentioned?

 7       A.   Yes, yes.  I read his last name, and I believe he was the one.

 8       Q.   The second paragraph of this document, it is stated:

 9            "In relation to this event, on the 12th of August that same year,

10    the duty investigating judge, at 1730, was informed by the MOI, SVR duty

11    operations centre, that in the area of Ljuboten and Ljubanci villages in

12    Skopje vicinity, there were several members of the paramilitary of the

13    Albanian terrorists killed, but no one could come close to the bodies

14    because, at that moment, the military activities were still going on.

15            "The investigating judge informed the deputy public prosecutor,

16    Roska Karova, about the information received from the MOI.  The

17    investigating judge was also informed that the safety of the investigation

18    bodies, the court, and the public prosecutor's office was not guaranteed

19    because of the clashes that were still going on.  So this is why no

20    investigating measures were undertaken, more precisely because of the

21    military clashes that were still going on between the above mentioned

22    paramilitary forces and the security forces of the Republic of Macedonia.

23             "Dr. Aleksej Duma, director of the Forensic Medicine and

24    Criminology Institute, was informed of the situation."

25            This report made by Judge Ognen Stavrev, is it consistent with

Page 9168

 1    what you know about the events of the 12th of August, 2001, in early

 2    evening hours?

 3       A.   With regards to the events taking place and the measures taken by

 4    the duty operations centre, yes.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  Would you please turn the first page of -- second page

 6    of this document.

 7            Would you kindly look at it.  Let's not read it out loud; it is a

 8    long document.

 9            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The first page, please, N000-7350;

10    and the English page is the same number, 7350-7351.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Again, this is an Official

12    Note from the investigating unit of Basic Court Skopje, drafted on the

13    15th.  It describes the events or measures that were taken by the

14    investigating judge on the 14th.

15            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   What is written here, does it correspond to your knowledge about

17    the events taking place then, because you, yourself, were present there at

18    the OVR Cair?

19       A.   I think it does correspond, except maybe I'm not sure about the

20    segment related to the OSCE.  I cannot say with certainty, but I think

21    they visited the village somewhere in the afternoon on the 13th.

22       Q.   However, certainly in this part, speaking about the court

23    attempting to enter and failing at that --

24       A.   Yes.  This segment is as is; although, it is in an abbreviated

25    form.  There were much more games surrounding this whole issue.

Page 9169

 1       Q.   Very well.  Would you then look at the document in tab 121,

 2    please.

 3            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit 1D72.

 4       Q.   This is the basic public prosecutor's office.  The document is

 5    signed by the deputy public prosecutor, Milan Gelevski.

 6            Tell me, do you remember whether the deputy prosecutor accompanied

 7    the investigation team?

 8       A.   Yes, this is the usual practice.

 9       Q.   Were any medical professionals present there during the on-site

10    inspection on the 14th?

11       A.   I think there was a doctor there, but I cannot recall the name.

12       Q.   Does this note correspond to your knowledge of the events that you

13    testified about, that an attempt was made to enter the village and that

14    due to reasons described in this Official Note, it was not possible to

15    enter the village?

16       A.   Generally speaking, I think it's in good order and it reflects the

17    situation.

18       Q.   If I understood you well, you stated that at the end you received

19    information that the bodies were buried.  So did it make any sense to then

20    perform the on-site investigation?  Based on your experience, what do you

21    think?

22       A.   With this procedure, with this act, the crime scene -- the scene

23    of the event has changed, is changed dramatically.  So, in my experience,

24    the on-site investigation would not have the importance, and it could not

25    provide relevant information.  There would be no need for it in a -- in a

Page 9170

 1    changed situation to carry out an on-site investigation, such as this.

 2       Q.   Would you please look at the document in tab 98.

 3            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P148.  This is an

 4    Official Note.

 5       Q.   Tell me, before you look at the contents of the document, this is

 6    an official note from the OVR-OOR Cair, so the department that verifies

 7    and uncovers events that are believed to constitute crimes.  Is my

 8    understanding of this document correct?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Does it correspond to your testimony, that until the matter is

11    taken by the prosecutor or the judge, that the exclusive competence

12    belongs to the OVR?

13       A.   I hope I was able to correctly elaborate on this yesterday.

14       Q.   And if, on the 12th, there had been some information that there

15    were dead bodies in the village, who would be in charge of trying to

16    arrive at information on the identity of the individuals and what has

17    happened to them?

18       A.   OVR Cair is responsible for the area under its charge, so to say;

19    and it is their obligation to try to secure all necessary information

20    pertaining to the pre-criminal procedure, the preliminary procedure, or

21    when they are acting upon the request of the public prosecutor and

22    investigating judge.

23       Q.   Thank you.  In the first paragraph of this Official Note it is

24    stated:  "On the 14th of August 2001 at around 1800 hours, at the premises

25    of the department of internal affairs OOR Cair, I have carried out a

Page 9171

 1    conversation with the person Sali Nimelula, born on 5 May 1964 in the

 2    village Ljuboten, residing at Kovacka Street, number 10, in Skopje..."

 3            Tell me, Mr. Stojanovski, whether this effort of the competent

 4    bodies, when they are not able to enter the village, should try to involve

 5    other persons or do they need to adhere to some patterns prescribed of

 6    conduct?

 7       A.   One aspect is collection of information and another is undertaking

 8    measures.  Where information is concerned, they can try to do so from

 9    various sources.

10       Q.   So this is where the competent bodies had an interview with a

11    person who resides in Skopje, since they believed that he was able to

12    provide information.  Is that what I read?

13      A. Yes. I believe I mentioned previously that OVR Cair is the relevant

14    organisational unit and according to this document, they did  undertake

15    the activities which were their tasks to take, which are part of their

16    responsibilities.

17       Q. And, so, these measures described in the Official Note corroborate

18    your evidence, that such measures are duties of the OVR on the territory

19    of which the event took place.  Is that correct?

20      A.   This is correct.

21      Q.   Would you now please look at the document in tab 99.

22      MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P490.

23      Q.  You see that this is a report.  On the second page, you see find the

24    signature of the head of the OVR Cair, Ljube Krstevski.  Is that correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 9172

 1       Q.   And please read briefly the contents and tell me whether this

 2    report wrote by the head Krstevski corresponds to your knowledge of the

 3    events of that day.

 4       A.   I think the content is accurate and falls under the competencies

 5    of the OVR.

 6       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Let's go back to an issue that we also

 7    started discussing already.

 8            When answering my question, you said that at one point in time OVR

 9    Cair requested assistance from the SVR regarding the accommodation and

10    detention of the persons who were brought in and the paraffin glove tests,

11    and that you appointed Milorad Bojic to assist OVR Cair with regards to

12    the questions asked.  Do you remember having said that?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Tell me whether Milorad Bojic had sufficient professional

15    experience to be able to render expert assistance to OVR Cair?

16       A.   Yes, of course.  He is a very competent employee.

17       Q.   Did Milorad Bojic, the person who you appointed to assist the OVR

18    Cair, inform you of any facts, problems, or anything related to the

19    request of assistance that the head and the officers of the OVR Cair

20    presented?

21       A.   There were certain problems; above all, problems related to

22    keeping the people, the detention of these people.  That is to say, OVR

23    Cair did not have sufficient capacity for detained persons and that more

24    police stations need to be included in order for them to be held in

25    conditions that would enable work to be done with them.

Page 9173

 1            The number of persons that were brought in was also a problem.

 2    Also, a problem was the fact that, in a very short period of time, we have

 3    the right to detain persons for 24 hours.  Therefore, in 24 hours, a lot

 4    of activities needed to be taken, especially from the forensic department,

 5    but I still believe that Mr. Bojic resolved this in a satisfactory

 6    manner.

 7            He established contact with the public prosecutor and

 8    investigating judge, asked their permission that we be allowed to detain

 9    these people until paraffin gloves were taken that were requested by OVR

10    Cair.  This was done during a working meeting at the premises of SVR

11    Skopje.

12            But another obligation stemmed from this working meeting, an

13    obligation for OVR Cair, that the criminal report which they were planning

14    to file against the persons that would -- in fact, we had information that

15    the paraffin gloves had tested positive, and that this criminal report

16    must be divided into three because the prosecutor and the investigating

17    judge did not have the capacity to process all these people against whom

18    criminal reports needed to be filed.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Would you please now look at the document in tab 104.

20            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is Exhibit P262.

21       Q.   This is an Official Note written by Toskovski Blagoja on the 17th

22    of August, 2001, and the second paragraph reads:  "On 13th of August,

23    2001, at around 1700 hours, at a meeting held in the premises of the SVR

24    Skopje, OSOOK, in the presence of the chief of the OSOOK, Bojic Milorad,

25    ZJO..."

Page 9174

 1            Does ZJO stand for the deputy prosecutor?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Lazar Katrandziski, in the role of VD, that would mean acting; is

 4    that so?

 5       A.   Yes, this is the usual abbreviation.

 6       Q.   So acting deputy OJO stands for basic public prosecutor's office?

 7       A.   The abbreviation OJO means basic public prosecutor's office.

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask the witness and the

 9    counsel to pause and to avoid overlapping.

10            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

11       Q.   Reading this, I wanted you to clarify the abbreviations so that we

12    know what they are about.

13       A.   Acting basic public prosecutor and deputy public prosecutor.

14       Q.   And Jovo Serafimovski, the following agreement was reached:  "The

15    detained individuals from the area of village of Ljuboten, where fighting

16    occurred between the joint security forces against -- and terrorist

17    groups, are to be held in police stations until the end of the entire

18    preliminary procedure, due to the large number of detained individuals and

19    shortage of time for completion of the entire procedure.

20            "The investigating judge of Basic Court Skopje II, Bekir Sain [as

21    interpreted], was informed of the recommendation and the agreement reached

22    by the aforementioned deputies of the basic public prosecutor and the

23    chief of the OSOOK at SVR Skopje.

24            "A joint agreement was reached and confirmed with the

25    investigating judge of Basic Court Skopje II, Bekir Sain, that the

Page 9175

 1    individuals are to be detained until the completion of the entire

 2    procedure."

 3            Mr. Stojanovski, with regards to this document, tell me, who was

 4    the only one who could approve that the persons who were brought in are

 5    held for longer than 24 hours, at the expiry of those 24 hours?

 6       A.   The investigating judge and the public prosecutor.

 7       Q.   Tell me, please, when we are speaking about this procedure, was

 8    the judge who was informed about it, was he Bekir Sain, and do you know

 9    what was his ethnicity?

10       A.   I believe his name is Bekir Shahini, and I also believe he is of

11    Albanian ethnicity.  The translation, Shahini.

12       Q.   And tell me whether this document reflects the information that

13    you learned from Bojic Milorad at that time?

14       A.   I think it does reflect it, but I cannot see that part about which

15    I was informed pertaining to the division of the criminal report,

16    separating them into three criminal reports, at the request of the public

17    prosecutor.

18       Q.   As we can see from this Official Note, also the active basic

19    public prosecutor and one of the deputies to the public prosecutor were

20    present?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Considering your testimony yesterday, did the police need to

23    follow the instructions that it receives from the prosecutor or the judge

24    in this specific case as well?

25       A.   Yes.  They're obligatory for us; however, allow me to correct

Page 9176

 1    myself.  I think the agreement was struck later; that is to say,

 2    guidelines given by the public prosecutor, Vilma Ruskovska, in this area

 3    regarding the criminal report.  I am speaking about the guidelines

 4    according to which OVR Cair later acted.

 5       Q.   Very well.  And, tell me, who was in charge of filing the criminal

 6    reports?

 7       A.   In view of the place where this event happened, OVR Cair.

 8       Q.   And considering that from this note we can see that the

 9    investigating judge had already been informed and had been aware of the

10    detained individuals, from your practice, then later, who had the

11    competence over the detained individuals?

12       A.   From the moment when the investigating judge is included, he has

13    full competence over the case, full responsibility over the case.

14       Q.   We discussed the competences of the police once it files a

15    criminal report several times yesterday.  And if I can interpret freely

16    what you said several times, after that moment, the police only acts upon

17    the order of either the prosecutor, who is requesting additional

18    information, or the investigating judge, who already decided that an

19    investigation would be open.

20            Is this a summary of what you testified to several times

21    yesterday?  Is this a fair summary?

22       A.   Yes, in the Macedonian language, the request for collecting

23    certain information; however, this doesn't change the essence of what you

24    have said.

25            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due

Page 9177

 1    respect, as you noticed this morning, I failed to finish within the

 2    planned time.  I have some additional 45 minutes to one hour of

 3    questioning, so I kindly ask you to allow me to continue my direct

 4    examination on Monday.

 5            JUDGE PARKER:  We're always warm and generous on Friday.

 6            We adjourn now for the weekend and resume at 9.00 on Monday.

 7            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.29 p.m.,

 9                          to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of

10                          February, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.