Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10558

1 Friday, 7 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 And good afternoon to you, sir. The affirmation you made at the

8 beginning of your evidence still applies.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS M2D-008 [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Issa.

12 MS. ISSA: Yes, good afternoon, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examination by Ms. Issa:

14 Q. Before I begin my questioning I wanted to indicate that the

15 exhibits that were used by my friend yesterday and that had been admitted

16 into evidence ranging from 2D94 to 2D99 were actually photographs that

17 were magnified and they were taken by a member of the Prosecution, Office

18 of the Prosecutor. Unfortunately, at this stage, we are not able to

19 provide the Court with the level of magnification of those photographs as

20 that person is away from the office, but when he returns in a couple of

21 weeks' time, we would able to provide that information to the Chamber.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 Q. Now, Witness, I would --

24 JUDGE PARKER: Before you continue, Mr. Apostolski.

25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

Page 10559

1 In reference with the objection of my colleague I would like to

2 emphasize that some of the photographs are visibly magnified and some are

3 not and we have no proof nor confirmation about it and we received those

4 photographs from the Prosecution and we don't know if they have been

5 magnified as my colleague just said. I would just like to say that on

6 the photograph 2D88, the cliff is visible. The cliff where that photo

7 was taken from. So I doubt that this photograph has been magnified as my

8 colleague just said.

9 If it had been zoomed, then the cliff would have -- wouldn't have

10 been as visible.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski. I don't believe there

12 was any objection taken. We were merely being informed so that we were

13 not misled. And frankly, I don't think it is of any significance whether

14 the photograph is magnified or not. The photographic image is very small

15 compared to the natural size, in any event. The magnification is merely

16 an aid to seeing what is in parts of the photograph, as long as the whole

17 photograph is magnified there is no distortion of perspective. Thank

18 you. Please continue, Ms. Issa.

19 MS. ISSA:

20 Q. Now, good afternoon, Witness.

21 I would just like to clarify a few points with you, sir. Just as

22 a point of clarification, as a reservist you indicated that you were

23 attached to the 1st Infantry Company of the 3rd Guardist Battalion, is

24 that correct, in August 2001?

25 A. Yes, correct. From the 1st Company.

Page 10560

1 Q. And you said that your immediate superior was Mario Jurisic who

2 was the commander of the 1st Company, but you also referred to a

3 Lieutenant Brasnarski. And I just wanted to clarify with you who is it

4 that you received orders from or who you answer to? Was it Mario Jurisic

5 or Brasnarski?

6 A. Your Honours, if a superior officer is on the position and I'm on

7 the same position and if that person has a higher rank than me, then that

8 is the commander of our unit, whether it was Mario, whether Mario was

9 present or not, he was in charge of the position. I think I explained

10 very well.

11 Q. Okay. But just so that we're clear, Witness,

12 Lieutenant Brasnarski was in fact the deputy of the 1st Infantry Company

13 and Mario Jurisic was the commander of that company. Isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And as you mentioned, the commander of the battalion was

16 Major Mitre Despodov. Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I'd just now like to deal briefly with the training that you

19 received prior to taking up your post in August 2001 on Smok, and you

20 mentioned that in mid-June, you went to the military barracks of Ilinden

21 and one day you were introduced to weapons where you received training in

22 firing. Is that right?

23 A. Yes, that is what I said. During the training and the weapons

24 that we were charged with, we had to handle that weapons, and therefore

25 we needed to know better that weapons because a long time has passed

Page 10561

1 since I served army and things get forgotten. So that was the training

2 and we had to do it.

3 Q. All right. But you mentioned, I believe, sir, yesterday, and

4 this is what I'd like to clarify, that you were trained at firing weapons

5 for one day. So were you trained at firing weapons for one day or was it

6 a longer period of time?

7 A. I said that from the times of the Yugoslavia National Army the

8 infantry training that was conducted in JNA, one can become a member of

9 the infantry only after completing a six-month training, and that is

10 where I received my rank.

11 Q. So it is that you received some additional training for one day

12 when you returned in mid-June. Is that what you're saying?

13 A. Yes, it was just firing, shooting, just to get to know the

14 weapons that we were going use.

15 Your Honours, I was charged with an automatic rifle, and I

16 explained it well, and the machine-gun, according to the law, since I had

17 a rank of lance corporal, only a person that had been trained can use

18 machine-guns.

19 Q. I see.

20 A. A person that has a rank of lance corporal need to know the

21 machine-gun and even train other people to use it.

22 Q. Okay. And can you tell us, sir, what types of weapons were you

23 trained on at that time in June or August 2001? What weapons were you

24 using?

25 A. I said it was an automatic rifle. It is a fact. I said that.

Page 10562

1 That is the weapons that we used, the sniper, the machine-gun that was

2 stationed on the point. It was not returned in the barracks. But every

3 trained person that joins the army can use that machine-gun together with

4 tactic training on the point where we were. I could train five persons

5 in one day.

6 Your Honours, that is what I wanted to say. That is the answer

7 to the question which weapons we used.

8 Q. Okay. And when you say that you had -- you used an automatic

9 rifle, was that an AK-47?

10 A. Yes, Kalashnikov.

11 Q. And would you agree with me, sir, that a Kalashnikov has an

12 effective range of about 500 metres?

13 A. How much did you say? 100 metres. What do you mean 500 metres?

14 You know, we know what is the range of an automatic rifle.

15 Q. Well, sir, just to clarify, I'm asking: Is the range for this

16 automatic rifle, the AK-47, 500 metres?

17 A. Between 300 and 400 metres of range. And that is the most

18 precise answer to you, madam.

19 Q. Okay.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Can I interrupt to inquire what you mean by range.

21 I think you may find a single round fired from that weapon will travel

22 much more than 500 metres.

23 The question is how accurately it will fire at three or four or

24 500 metres.

25 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour, and I think that -- I'll clarify

Page 10563

1 that. I think that is why I was using the term "effective."

2 JUDGE PARKER: And I think the witness is telling you that once

3 you get above 400, he is not too confident of hitting anything.

4 MS. ISSA: Yes, thank you.

5 Q. Can you indicate, sir, that the sniper that you were using in

6 your unit, what is the range for that, or the effective range?

7 A. Range of a sniper, hmm. That is a good question. You want a

8 definition? What is the effective range? Is that what you want from me?

9 Q. Let me ask you this first, sir. What kind of sniper were you

10 using. You said you had one sniper when you were up at Smok. What kind

11 of sniper were you using?

12 A. Calibre 7, 9. [In English] Okay?

13 Q. Okay. And how far would you be able to accurately fire with that

14 calibre?

15 A. [Interpretation] To be precise, 300 to 400 metres, not more.

16 Well, it can have a range of 5.000 metres, but without any precision.

17 Q. Perhaps just moving on to something else, sir. How many men in

18 your unit were with you between 10 and 12 August at Smok?

19 A. I said previously, Your Honours, on the position of Smok, I had

20 five soldiers. Those five soldiers were always on that position,

21 changing into shifts. One shift was 24 hours.

22 Q. Okay. And were they all reservists like yourself, those five

23 soldiers?

24 A. Yes. With exception, whenever need arose, we had a higher

25 officer. If there were combat activities on the positions and if the

Page 10564

1 superior was of higher rank, then that superior was in charge of that

2 unit or that company.

3 Q. Okay. And you said -- you mentioned also, sir, that you were

4 using binoculars at the time. What level of magnification were you using

5 to make your observations?

6 A. I cannot recall quite precisely, because my eyesight was much

7 better at the time. I said that I now have problems with the eyesight.

8 I'm a bit disabled because I'm using welding equipment which harmed my

9 sight.

10 I said that on the position of Smok we used binoculars and the

11 sniper sight, but what was the magnification, you know, a person can see

12 well 200 metres away if that person has good eyesight. But you can see

13 the flames and the fire that one gun releases so it is easy to see it

14 even with the naked eye.

15 Q. I guess the answer to my question then is you can't remember the

16 level of magnification of the binoculars you were using at the time. Is

17 that correct?

18 A. Well, if I wanted to see further away I had to adjust the

19 magnification to a higher level. I said I cannot really recall.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. I think you have answered my question.

21 But I take it, then, you -- can you recall, then, the

22 magnification on the sniper that you were using, the sniper rifle?

23 A. Hmm, I cannot really recall. I don't remember whether I had to

24 adjust it to three circles or four circles, depending on the object that

25 I wanted to see and how far that object was. I really cannot be precise

Page 10565

1 in millimetres. I'm not a military expert.

2 Q. Okay. Now, sir, you testified yesterday, I believe, that on the

3 10th of August, 2001, that Commander Brasnarski called you - he was the

4 deputy in your -- in your company - and told you or instructed you to

5 observe attentively in case there were terrorists moving within the

6 village of Ljuboten.

7 Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. So your job, one of your main functions when you were up at Smok,

10 was to observe all movements within the village and report your

11 observations back to the command. Is that right?

12 A. Not exactly. I think your question is a bit different.

13 My task after the soldiers had been killed, because we have to

14 divide these two things, I said that very precisely yesterday. If

15 Brasnarski was on the position because he had a higher rank than me, he

16 was my commander.

17 Q. Sir, I want to interrupt you for a moment because I think you

18 have misunderstood my question. I'm not asking who your commander is,

19 okay? I'm just asking you that one of your main tasks as you were -- the

20 order that you were given on that day was to make observations of the

21 movements that occurred within the village. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes. That was my position, to observe the village from the

23 higher part of the mountain. Yes, that's what I said.

24 Q. Once you made those observations, if you were to see any type of

25 movements, such as firing or terrorist movement or anything that was

Page 10566

1 important, you would report those observations to the command and that

2 might be to Mario Jurisic or Brasnarski or whoever your commander was at

3 the time. Isn't that right?

4 A. No, I think we are misunderstanding each other, Your Honours. I

5 would like to explain.

6 If an officer has a higher rank and that officer is my superior,

7 he informs to the commanding post, he is the commander of that unit or

8 company, and he is responsible about the information that he gives to the

9 commanding post. I had a very low rank. I couldn't give them any

10 information. The commanding was done like this: If the officer had a

11 higher rank, then he was in charge.

12 Q. Okay. So let's start with the 10th of August, sir. If you made

13 an observation on the 10th of, for example, firing -- firing from the

14 village on the 10th, who would you report that to?

15 A. Would you please again explain this question?

16 Q. Suppose you had made an observation on the 10th of a movement in

17 the village or a firing from somewhere in the village, who would you

18 report that observation to?

19 A. The commander heard the shooting. When our soldiers were killed,

20 because we are talking about that day, our soldiers hit a land-mine up

21 there in Bacila and --

22 Q. But that's not what I'm asking you, sir. I'm asking if you made

23 an observation that the commander may or may not have heard, who would

24 you report to on the 10th? Who was your commander at the time that you

25 reported to?

Page 10567

1 A. Now I understood the question.

2 To my commander, to my superior, to Mario Jurisic.

3 Q. And if you had made an observation that was important on the 12th

4 of August, just so that we're absolutely clear about this, sir, then you

5 would also report that observation to Mario Jurisic. Is that correct?

6 A. If he was on the position, then you always report to the

7 commander that is on your position. The commander functions as a

8 commander and forwards the information to the higher commanders. That is

9 what I can say, Your Honours.

10 Q. Who was the commander on your position on the 10th of August?

11 A. The commander.

12 Q. Mario Jurisic.

13 A. Yes, of course. Mario Jurisic was our commander and he was the

14 army commander. He was active army officer. He wasn't a reservist.

15 Q. Who was the highest ranking officer at your position on Smok on

16 that day? Who was present?

17 A. On the 10th?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. On the position was Brasnarski.

20 Q. Okay. So if something -- if you had seen something that was

21 important that was happening in the village, you would report to

22 Brasnarski on that day, on the 10th. Is that correct?

23 A. In given moments, yes. If I'm at the position and if I -- since

24 there was a limitation on the talks about that day, if the commander was

25 on the next position, he tells us that he will send a courier in the

Page 10568

1 trench and he will inform us. Otherwise, it is not possible to inform

2 each other or to report to each other. This was how things were at that

3 point.

4 Q. Okay. And so on the 10th, if something important happened in the

5 village, you would report to Commander Brasnarski, who was at Smok with

6 you, and then Commander Brasnarski may report back to the command about

7 what was happening in the village. Is that right?

8 A. If he is nearby, and as I mentioned several times he was at the

9 Bomba position, he gives all information where necessary. In the

10 command, in the headquarters or further up, this is a procedure which

11 they have, a command procedure.

12 Q. Okay. And you mentioned, sir, that the mode of communication

13 that was being used at those positions was a wire telephone, and that is

14 how observations, whether it was done by you or by the commander, were

15 reported back to the command. Is that correct?

16 A. If I have a courier or a duty officer on the phone, at given

17 moments from the five soldiers which I have at my disposal on a shift, in

18 an hour or two hours' time, we took turns from the position and one of

19 these -- one person was always on duty on the telephone. It may have

20 been me or another soldier. The person who was on duty with the

21 telephone that he communicates with the commander, Brasnarski or vice

22 versa, depending on the day. This was how the communication went.

23 Q. And the person who was on duty on the telephone, sir, regardless

24 of who it was, was required to maintain constant communication with the

25 command of the 1st Infantry Company during that critical time and -- so

Page 10569

1 that the observations would continuously be reported back to the command.

2 Isn't that right?

3 A. The command cannot be informed all the time. I said this twice.

4 If a commander is at a neighbouring point, a commander of a superior

5 rank, then we would be in communication with them, or a courier would run

6 over to that position, or his courier would come to us and then it was he

7 that communicates this further. This is what I can respond to your

8 question about how the communication went.

9 Q. But the point is, sir, that whether or not the commander was at

10 the position, or a courier, or somebody was on the telephone reporting

11 the observations to the -- to the command, the point was that the

12 important observations were being reported on a regular basis constantly

13 back to the command, so that the command can issue the required orders.

14 Isn't that so?

15 A. Yes, this is correct.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you.

17 A. I cannot fabricate things --

18 Q. Okay. I'm just asking you to just answer my questions as I ask

19 them. Thank you.

20 So would it be fair to say, sir, that when -- each time that a

21 target was observed by someone such as yourself, or perhaps

22 Commander Brasnarski or whomever was present at the time, or saw firing

23 towards your positions, that was reported back to the command. Isn't

24 that right?

25 A. Again, I answered this question, and I think I did so

Page 10570

1 realistically from my point of view. If the commander, a superior with a

2 higher rank, is on that position or not, regardless of this, we call him

3 or we inform him and he informs the command.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. The command calls into the command centre.

6 Q. Okay. And all targets or firing that was occurring from the

7 village towards your positions was ultimately being reported to the

8 command centre, whether it was done by the commander or somebody else.

9 Isn't that right?

10 A. I think we can clarify this now. I tell you very precisely, at

11 the Smok position, there were five people and there's a commander,

12 so-and-so.

13 Q. Sir, I don't think you understand my question --

14 A. After the end of the shift.

15 Q. I don't think you understand what I'm asking. I'm going to

16 rephrase my question. That might be my fault.

17 Whether it was the commander -- I see that my friend,

18 Your Honour, is on his feet, so I may just stop there for a moment.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.

20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting,

21 Your Honours, but I think the witness has been answering these questions

22 several times now, and I think it's not a good form that this question

23 continues to be asked.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski. There is a lack of

25 communication between the witness and Ms. Issa, which is probably

Page 10571

1 nobody's fault, the fact of is that the precise point that Ms. Issa is

2 trying to get clarified is escaping the witness and he is answering other

3 matters. Just how long Ms. Issa will keep at it, we will find out.

4 MS. ISSA: Hopefully not too long, Your Honour.

5 Q. I'm going to try to ask you this as precisely as I can and I

6 would ask to you please listen very carefully to the precise question

7 that I'm asking you and only to answer that question, okay?

8 Regardless of whether the information or the observations that

9 was being relayed to the command centre was done by the commander at Smok

10 or by yourself or your colleagues, my question is that all observations,

11 all -- all of targets or firing that occurred within the village towards

12 your positions was reported back to the command centre. Isn't that

13 right?

14 A. You're coming back to this again, about what I'm supposed to be

15 giving as an answer. For example, when I was on duty with five people,

16 I, as the commander, have to make notes and to give them over to the next

17 day's shift, to tell them what had happened. My commander will come. I

18 write the notes in a notebook. Am I clear in what I'm saying? I write

19 this down in a notebook. And when the new shift comes, the new commander

20 writes what he had noted, whether there had been firing and whatnot, and

21 the commander takes these to the command post.

22 I hope I'm clear about this.

23 Q. Okay. So the effect of that, then, sir, is that all observations

24 of firing were supposed to be noted, correct?

25 A. Of course and correct. And we informed the commander and he

Page 10572

1 knows about what was going on. This is what I have been answering.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you.

3 A. In a precise manner, I have been trying to do so.

4 Q. I appreciate that, sir. And after the -- a target or a location

5 of -- or after -- something was observed, where somebody was -- had been

6 firing at your positions and that was reported back to the command

7 centre, or the commander, depending on who you were dealing with at the

8 time, you would then receive an order to fire back at that specific

9 target, either you or your colleagues. Isn't that right?

10 A. I said if there's a commander there, if there's a superior there

11 and we see that we're being fired at, then this is quite normal. The

12 commander is in command. This was exactly what I was saying. The

13 commanders are those in charge.

14 Q. Yes. And once you've fired at that target, assuming that there

15 is no commander there and the target was neutralized, you would report

16 that fact, that the target was neutralized to the commander, right?

17 A. Yes, this is correct.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. If I'm attacked --

20 Q. And if there was a commander there that was present - for

21 example, Commander Brasnarski, if I'm pronouncing that properly - he may

22 report that or he would report that back to the command centre, that fact

23 that a target was neutralized. Isn't that so?

24 A. He is the one who decides, be it destroyed or not. He is the one

25 who tells on. I cannot tell you offhand about certain things which I do

Page 10573

1 not know about.

2 Q. Constant communication, sir, was important with the command

3 centre and/or your immediate commanders, because the command needed to

4 have the most up-to-the-minute information at that critical time in order

5 to issue orders on the ground. Isn't that right?

6 A. The commander who is, at that point, it depends on whether he can

7 convey this, and if it is possible, he is the one who will do it. I

8 can't say this. I cannot say anything to the command centre. The

9 commander, if he has the need or if there are certain activities then

10 he --

11 Q. Thank you. I just want to clarify a few points just moving on to

12 a slightly different topic?

13 You mentioned, sir, that you saw at one stage on the 12th of

14 August, 2001, Macedonian security forces walking behind a Hermelin. Do

15 you recall that?

16 A. Yes, I remember.

17 Q. Now, when you say "Macedonian security forces," you mean the

18 police. Is that right?

19 A. Here I have to tell you precisely. Macedonian forces are all

20 security forces, without limitations. We are the army, army for security

21 of Macedonia. Security forces --

22 Q. Well, sir, I'm going to stop you there for a moment.

23 A. -- depending on the sector experts will tell you.

24 Q. What you saw on the 12th of August were police officers or

25 members of the police in the village. Is that right?

Page 10574

1 A. What I saw I already told.

2 Q. Well, I'm asking --

3 A. This was a concrete answer.

4 Q. I'm asking you now to answer a more precise question.

5 A. Security forces, do you understand me? I saw security forces at

6 the Ljuboten place. Security forces, when I say this, this can mean in

7 the police sector or other areas about which I cannot tell you in an

8 expert manner. I don't know who this was and how this was. These were

9 our security forces.

10 This is the point I made yesterday and today. I hope I have been

11 clear. This is what I can tell you.

12 Q. Sir, the army never entered the village that day, village of

13 Ljuboten, on the 12th of August, did it?

14 A. Your Honours, I have to reply to this. From my position, no

15 soldier -- none of my soldiers went anywhere, not to the village, not

16 anywhere.

17 As for who entered the village, how they entered the village, I

18 can't know about these things.

19 Q. And just as a point of clarification, sir, you mentioned

20 yesterday that you spent the whole day, Saturday, at the funeral, and you

21 said something about being in the dining-room of the village of Ljuboten.

22 And I just want to clarify the record. When you say you spent the day in

23 the dining-room, you mean Ljubanci. Is that right?

24 A. Yes, okay. Yes, this is what I said. We're Christians and when

25 someone dies, a parent, mother, father --

Page 10575

1 Q. I understand I just wanted to clarify the location where you

2 were, to correct the transcript.

3 Just moving on to a different topic. Ljuboten is quite a densely

4 built-up town, isn't it. It is very dense and the houses are built very

5 close together. Is that right?

6 A. It depends. There is Staro Maalo, there is Novo Maalo. Now the

7 houses are built in a more modern fashion. The old houses were more

8 densely placed together. The new houses are somewhat different. I can't

9 tell you know what the village looks like.

10 Q. I'm asking you what the village looked like in August 2001. The

11 houses were built up very close together and it is quite a densely built

12 town. We can look at a photograph, if you like. But isn't that how it

13 was built in 2001?

14 A. This is correct. Houses are one next to each other. In some

15 areas. For example, near Dolno Maalo or the old village as we call it,

16 and there is the new part towards Radisani, the Rastak road. This is the

17 new part of the village. They're now changes to the village. The houses

18 may be more densely built up, I don't know.

19 Q. I'm only asking you about what you saw in 2001, okay?

20 And most houses are walled, aren't they? There are walls, high

21 walls surrounding the homes in 2001 in Ljuboten?

22 A. I have to say again, high walls, they can't put up a palace wall.

23 It's a normal wall, so the neighbour's cattle can't jump over.

24 Q. Okay. I think you have answered my question. And there were

25 lots of trees. It's a forested area, Ljuboten, is that right?

Page 10576

1 A. Depending in which area of Ljuboten you're asking me about.

2 Ljuboten is a more general and broader term and somewhat different now.

3 Ljuboten, in that area towards the river. This is where it is. There

4 are high poplar trees.

5 Q. Sir?

6 A. There are trees, 100-year-old trees.

7 Q. I'm only asking you about the area that you were -- that you saw

8 while you were at Smok in August of 2001, okay?

9 MS. ISSA: Perhaps we can go to Exhibit 2D97, please, and show

10 that in e-court?

11 Q. Now we see there, sir, just by way of example, the houses that

12 are built surrounding the mosque area and towards the area where the

13 Orthodox church was located. That's a pretty densely built-up area,

14 right?

15 A. I can't see the church. I can see the mosque.

16 Q. Okay. But just what you're looking at right here, just by way of

17 an example, around the mosque, the houses are quite close together,

18 aren't they?

19 A. It's the same thing again. In the area of Dolno Maalo, the

20 houses are closest and closer together. In the area towards the Rastak

21 road, this is different. We're talking about the old Maalo now. This is

22 it.

23 Q. And that's what I'm asking about. I'm not asking you about

24 Rastak road.

25 Now, at the time, sir, when you were making your observations

Page 10577

1 from Smok between 10 and 12th of August, 2001, you didn't see any

2 trenches or bunkers or any type of fortifications or sandbags in the

3 village of Ljuboten, did you?

4 A. On the 12th of August? Can you please ask the question again?

5 You're asking me about where I was on the 12th?

6 Q. No sir. Let me just repeat that.

7 We know you were in Smok on the 12th of August. What I'm asking

8 you is when you were there --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- on the 10th and 12th of August, you did not see any sandbags,

11 trenches, or bunkers or that type of fortification inside the village of

12 Ljuboten, right?

13 A. I said this yesterday.

14 Q. Okay. I appreciate that sometimes you may have said things

15 before, but I just need to clarify with them so bear with me if I have to

16 ask you again, okay?

17 Now when you were in Ljuboten, sir, on the 12th of August, and

18 we're just dealing with the 12th right now, if I can ask you to please

19 look at the screen, which is Exhibit 2D97, were you able to see, or did

20 you see a group of police officers walking down the road to the left of

21 the mosque and stop off at a couple of the houses along that area?

22 A. What I saw I told you, Your Honours.

23 Q. Well, I'm asking you a different question, sir, and I know that

24 you've told us other things but it's my job to ask you some other

25 questions and sometimes things may seem obvious but I would just ask you

Page 10578

1 to please answer my questions as I ask them. We can get through it

2 faster, okay?

3 A. What I saw I told already.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Very precisely.

6 Q. So I take it then that your answer is no, you did not see police

7 officers walking down the road to the left of the mosque in that densely

8 populated area and stop off at a couple of houses. Your answer is no; is

9 that right?

10 A. In the area which I'm not able to see here, from the church

11 towards Dolno Maalo, I said in this area which could not have been seen,

12 I could not have seen anyone.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. This is --

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. -- why I told you who and what I saw and in what period of time.

17 Q. Okay. I take it then, sir, that you did not see that same group

18 of officers go into one of these houses, round up about 15 or 20 men,

19 force them to lie outside at the front gate and beat them. You did not

20 see that, right?

21 A. This is what I'm saying.

22 Q. Sir --

23 A. I cannot tell you that I saw something when I didn't see

24 anything. That they were beating someone or not.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 10579

1 A. What I saw, I already told you.

2 Q. Thank you. And you did not see, sir -- sir, I'm asking you now a

3 different question. You did not see, for example, the police shoot one

4 of the men who got up and shoot another one who was still lying down in

5 the front -- at the front of the gate of one of those houses, right?

6 A. Tell me about which precise area and then I will give you a

7 precise answer.

8 Q. We're still --

9 A. If this is the area which is out of sight --

10 Q. We're still talking about the houses to the left of the mosque

11 along the road. You have explained to us that you haven't seen this,

12 sir; I appreciate that.

13 A. I think there's a misunderstanding here but I have to intervene,

14 Your Honours.

15 In concrete terms, I told you what I saw. You speak about left

16 from the mosques. What is the time that I saw the security forces from

17 there towards the Rastak road? My point is that I've told this Court

18 what I saw and when.

19 Q. Okay. And sometimes, sir, part of the reason that you may not

20 have seen certain things, is because your view was not only obstructed by

21 the density of the village, because of the houses that were built closely

22 together, but sometimes there was an embankment or walls or forested area

23 that obstructed your view. Isn't that right?

24 A. Houses are houses, movement is movement. What I saw I told you.

25 Q. Sir --

Page 10580

1 A. I said this.

2 Q. I know that you've told me what you saw, but I'm asking you

3 different questions now and I would like you, if you can please answer

4 the question that I'm asking you. And sometimes if you didn't see

5 something, you can just say no. You don't have to explain it again,

6 okay?

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. So, sir, would it be fair to say that you could not see inside

9 the yards -- I'm sorry, are you having --

10 Are you able to hear me, sir?

11 A. Yes. Can you repeat the question though.

12 Q. Yes. It's fair to say then, sir, that you were not able to see

13 inside the yards of the houses.

14 A. I cannot say what was in the yard. If I saw or took notes. And

15 yesterday what I said before this Court was what I saw. In combat

16 activities, depending on the given situation, I will say what I saw.

17 Q. Okay, sir. So the answer then is no.

18 MS. ISSA: If I can then please turn to tab -- actually, I

19 haven't distributed the binders and I will distribute them now,

20 Your Honours, if I may.

21 Perhaps if I can ask -- if we can show in the meantime

22 tab P239 -- or, rather, Exhibit P239, and it's at tab 39 of the binders.

23 Q. I take it then, sir, if you look at the photograph that is on the

24 screen in front of you, that you did not see the body of that man, or

25 that man get shot who is lying there behind that embankment. Is that

Page 10581

1 fair?

2 A. Yes. If I hadn't seen him, how could I say -- I hate injustice.

3 Q. Sir --

4 A. I hate something that is inhuman.

5 Q. Please, I'm asking you to just answer my questions, and they

6 require yes or no answers, okay?

7 And it is quite difficult to see at that angle because of the

8 raised embankment. Wouldn't you agree with that?

9 A. Pardon? Could you say it again, because ...

10 Q. It would be difficult for you to see from the position of Smok

11 where you were located, that man, or shooting occur at that -- that

12 location, because of the raised embankment. Would you agree with that?

13 A. I said, again, what I saw I said already before this Tribunal.

14 Q. Sir, that wasn't my --

15 A. If I had seen him I would have told you that.

16 Q. Thank you. You've answered that question.

17 MS. ISSA: Now, if I could then ask perhaps on -- if we can turn

18 to 65 ter 195, which is at tab 36 in the binders, but in e-court it's

19 65 ter 195, N003-0029.

20 And for the record, Your Honour, this photograph depicts the same

21 image as in photograph P186.

22 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you a question and you just have to answer

23 yes or no, please. I take it you didn't see the shooting of this man

24 that is depicted in the image that you see on your screen. Is that

25 correct?

Page 10582

1 A. Yes, correct. I didn't see this man.

2 Q. Sir --

3 A. From where -- near some house, I guess.

4 Q. Thank you. So it would be fair to say, sir, that there was a lot

5 that happened or that was going on in the village that you may simply

6 have not have seen, right?

7 A. We have to clarify this, Your Honours. What I saw from my

8 position, I swore here that I would be telling the truth. What I saw is

9 what I said and what I know. I wasn't down there to know everything that

10 was happening.

11 Q. Thank you for that.

12 MS. ISSA: If we can then please go to Exhibit 2D98.

13 Q. Now --

14 MS. ISSA: Actually, before -- before we do that ...

15 This is an exhibit from -- that was admitted yesterday by my

16 friend.

17 Q. Now, you said, sir, in looking at this image you drew two circles

18 there, number 1 and 2, and you said that you saw the police officers walk

19 down the road towards the cemetery behind a Hermelin. Do you recall

20 that?

21 A. To the road, to the cemetery? No. Let me correct you. The

22 Rastak road.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. And these two points that I identified I already spoke about

25 them.

Page 10583

1 Q. But you did see the police officers walking down that road behind

2 a Hermelin. Correct?

3 A. Yes, yes. That is what I saw. I told you how they were moving,

4 how everything was going on. I said everything.

5 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You just have to answer yes or no to

6 these questions, sir.

7 And you also said that you --

8 A. [In English] okay.

9 Q. Okay? You also said that you saw five men fleeing from one of

10 those houses wearing black uniforms. Do you remember that?

11 A. Yes, that is correct. That is exactly the number that I

12 mentioned.

13 Q. Now my question to you, sir, is: Were they all wearing black

14 uniforms?

15 A. Yes. I said yes before this trial. I emphasized it because I

16 saw them. They were wearing weapons. I saw the gun falling down off one

17 person's shoulder.

18 Q. I wasn't asking you about the weapons. I am just asking you

19 about the uniforms now.

20 All of them were wearing black uniforms. Is that what you're

21 saying?

22 A. Yes, exactly.

23 Q. Thank you. And you also said that they were shot at by members

24 of your unit while you were up in Smok. Do you recall telling us that?

25 A. I said we were shooting from our positions, from Smok, and from

Page 10584

1 Bomba as well, and I already spoke about it before this Court. But, yes,

2 we shot. We were firing.

3 Q. Did you also see the police fire at those persons, sir?

4 A. Yes. That is exactly what I said yesterday. I cannot say

5 something that is not true. I said as well that the police were

6 shooting. I cannot say that they were not shooting. Everything I saw I

7 said before this Chamber.

8 Q. You also said, sir, that you didn't see a weapon at the time

9 until after one of them fell over and he fell on his weapon. Is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes. I explained it.

12 Q. Thank you. Just requires a yes or no answer.

13 A. Yes, I said that.

14 Q. Now, sir, Ljuboten was a very -- a populated area at the time.

15 There were lots of civilians, right?

16 A. Yes, I said civilians. But we have to have in mind what I said.

17 From this period to this period, the population, the villagers, were

18 leaving the village.

19 Q. But it would be fair to say, sir, that as far as you knew at the

20 time, there were still people in the village who had not left on the 12th

21 of August, right?

22 A. I said that, Your Honours. I cannot make things up.

23 Q. Sir, sir, please.

24 A. I said what date --

25 Q. All have you to do is answer yes or no to these questions and if

Page 10585

1 you need to explain, it's fine. But if you have said something before --

2 A. No.

3 Q. So there were, so I can clarify this for the record, that there

4 were still people in the village on the 12th of August, yes or no,

5 civilians.

6 A. Maybe so. There were elderly people. I said before this trial

7 what I know. I cannot lie.

8 Q. Thank you. So it's fair then to say, sir, that you and members

9 of your unit had to be pretty careful not to fire at civilians, right?

10 A. Yes. How can I shoot at civilians? Only a lunatic can do that.

11 Q. And, sir, a combatant is normally one that would wear a uniform,

12 right?

13 A. Combatant, soldiers. Our security forces, which are in the army,

14 for example, there is an army procedure, an army law.

15 Q. Sir. Sir, the question was a very simple one. I didn't ask you

16 about your security forces. I'm just saying normally one way to identify

17 a combatant is someone who is wearing a uniform, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. And the uniform means that person is under some command.

21 Q. And you would expect, sir, that a combatant who is in the village

22 would hide and take cover because he might be afraid that someone, such

23 as yourself, may get him in your sights and take a shot at him. Wouldn't

24 that be fair?

25 A. It depends on the situation. If it is with a mortar that is

Page 10586

1 firing on the position, it's normal that every person is afraid. The

2 question is are soldiers afraid? Every human beings are afraid because

3 fire weapons because were used.

4 Q. Well, it is pretty unlikely then, sir, that a combatant would run

5 across an open field and risk being shot at by someone, such as yourself,

6 who might be hiding up in the hills. Would you agree with that?

7 A. Everything is combat activity. As I said, from one foothill or

8 one slope, if a person can take shelter, of course. If a person takes

9 shelter, they can fire. But everything depends on the situation and on

10 the direction.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. [No interpretation]

13 MS. ISSA: Now, I'd like to turn to tab 41, 65 ter 989, please.

14 If we can show that, display that on the e-court screen.

15 Q. Now, you see that person there, sir, lying in the open field?

16 A. I wish I can have a clear picture that I can speak about. Maybe

17 the person is just lying in this ditch and I couldn't see --

18 Q. Sir, I'm only asking you if you see it now on your screen, okay?

19 That's all I'm asking you. Okay.

20 He doesn't look like he is wearing a black uniform, does he?

21 A. He looks like he's wearing a T-shirt. There are all kinds of

22 T-shirt. Colourful, one-colour T-shirt --

23 Q. He doesn't look like a combatant to you, does he?

24 A. He looks as though he was wearing pyjamas to me.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 10587

1 A. It happened that they would change their clothes, combatants or

2 no combatants.

3 MS. ISSA: For the record, Your Honour, this is the same image as

4 Exhibit P203, N000-7282.

5 If we can then please turn to tab 32, 65 ter 195, N003-0033.

6 Q. Now, if you can look at your screen, sir. Once again, he doesn't

7 look like he's wearing a uniform, does he? It's a very simple question.

8 A. I said if the person is change -- that is, if the person has

9 changed his clothes or not, how I am supposed to see it?

10 Q. Sir --

11 A. Maybe the person could have been brought here in pyjamas.

12 Q. But you're speculating now, aren't you?

13 A. No, I'm not speculating. There's no need for me to speculate.

14 He is wearing dark clothes. How can I say that he is wearing white

15 shirt?

16 Q. Sir that's not what I'm asking you, okay? I'm asking you to

17 please listen to my questions and answer them as they're being asked.

18 A. [In English] Okay.

19 MS. ISSA: And for the record, Your Honour, this photograph is

20 the same image as Exhibit P203, N003-7827. I just didn't want to show

21 the markings made by another protected witness.

22 Q. I'm going to move on to a different topic.

23 MS. ISSA: Now, I'd like to move to tab 10, P306, please.

24 Q. Now, sir, you've told us that the commander of your company was

25 Commander Jurisic. This is a report that was written by

Page 10588

1 Commander Jurisic regarding the events that occurred on the 12th of

2 August, 2001, in the village of Ljuboten. Okay?

3 A. [In English] Okay.

4 Q. Now I'd like to draw your attention, sir, to about the very last

5 paragraph in this report that starts with: "At about 11.00," or 1100

6 hours. And what is say there, sir, is: "At about 1100 hours, our

7 positions came under fire of 82-millimetre mortars and during this the

8 grenades were falling at our positions. We realised that the fire was

9 coming from the small forest near the village. After being ordered, the

10 deputy fired five projectiles against the positions of the mortars of the

11 terrorist groups, and after the fifth grenade the attack stopped."

12 Do you see that?

13 A. Yes. This is a report of Lieutenant Brasnarski. That is his

14 statement, not mine.

15 Q. This is a report of, actually, Commander Jurisic, sir, and I

16 appreciate it's not your statement. But there's nothing in here, sir,

17 there's no reference to any so-called terrorists coming from the houses

18 near the Rastak area and being fired upon by the army, is there? Very

19 simple question, requires a yes or no answer.

20 A. I didn't give this statement, and I cannot say yes. Whoever gave

21 this statement is the person that said yes or no. No, I cannot say

22 anything.

23 Q. There's no reference here, sir, to the five terrorists that were

24 wearing black uniforms that you say you saw, is there?

25 A. What I said is what I saw. But when and how Brasnarski decided

Page 10589

1 and what kind of statement he gave, it's his statement. And this is my

2 statement, and I cannot change it.

3 Q. And when you saw all of these events that you described to us,

4 these events were reported to the command, whether it was by yourself or

5 Brasnarski. Isn't that right?

6 A. If he said that he made a report, then it's true. This is his

7 statement. I'm now talking about what I said to this trial and to this

8 Chamber, and I'm standing behind it.

9 MS. ISSA: If we can then please turn to tab 12, 1D26.

10 Q. And once again, sir, if I can just ask you to perhaps look at the

11 binder in front of you, or -- or the screen, whatever is easier. If you

12 look at the very bottom of this report, which is Lieutenant Brasnarski's

13 report, it starts with: "At 1100 the terrorists opened mortar fire," and

14 it continues.

15 And once again there, sir, there's nothing in there about five

16 terrorists wearing black uniforms fleeing and being shot at by the army,

17 is there?

18 A. It is his statement.

19 Your Honours, again, I have to say this. What I saw personally

20 from my position is what I said before this Chamber. I cannot speak

21 about the report that was given to -- from Brasnarski or what year it was

22 given. I came here to speak before this Chamber about things that I saw

23 and I'm standing behind what I say.

24 Q. Now, sir, on the 10th of August, you testified that there were

25 shootings from the Dolno Maalo area, which is near the church, as I

Page 10590

1 understand it, and also you said that there were shootings or firing at

2 your positions from the houses near the mosque and from the Rastanski Pat

3 area. Do you recall telling us that?

4 A. Yes, I remember what I said. I remember and I say yes.

5 Q. Thank you. I noticed, sir, that you didn't mark on a photograph

6 the precise location from where you say you saw the firing was coming

7 from on the 10th of August. Is that because you don't remember?

8 A. What I saw, I spoke about it precisely. I cannot make up things

9 or draw houses.

10 Q. I'm not asking you, sir, to make up things. I'm asking you

11 another question, and I'd like to you please carefully listen to what I'm

12 asking you and to answer only that question. And what I'm asking you is

13 you did not draw or you did not mark on any photograph the precise

14 location of where you say you saw the firing was coming from on the 10th

15 of August. Is that because you don't recall?

16 A. I remember very well and I said it before this Chamber. What I

17 marked is the fact reflecting what I saw. I cannot now make up things.

18 Maybe some new 50 houses were built on those locations. What I

19 recognised on the monitor is what I --

20 Q. I'm interrupting you again because you're not listening to my

21 question. I am only talking about the 10th of August right now. What

22 you marked related to the 12th of August. I'm asking you about the 10th

23 of August, okay?

24 A. That is what I'm saying.

25 Q. You --

Page 10591

1 A. I'm talking about the 10th of August.

2 Q. Now you said, sir, that on the 10th of August you and your unit

3 or the army, fired with your sniper and automatic weapons at those

4 targets that evening. Do you recall telling us that? It require a yes

5 or no answer.

6 A. You said in the evening. No, we were not shooting in the

7 evening. We were shoots against targets from where shots were fired at

8 us. No, I don't agree it was in the evening.

9 Q. So it wasn't in the evening but you fired with your sniper and

10 automatic weapons, that's what you said, at those targets, right?

11 A. Again, Your Honours, what I said precisely before I will say it

12 again. We were shooting from our position with weapons. I couldn't make

13 it up. Yes, it's true we were shooting.

14 Q. Didn't you also, sir, fire mortars at the village or shell the

15 village on the 10th of August, in addition to firing with your infantry

16 weapons?

17 A. I emphasize that I spoke from which position and -- yes, that is

18 my answer. Yes, we were shooting.

19 Q. You fired mortars on the 10th of August at the village, right?

20 A. Wait a minute. Was it 10th of August or other day? What I said

21 I would like to confirm. I stand behind what I said.

22 Q. I'm asking you, sir --

23 A. I said when we were firing against what targets we were firing.

24 I said it.

25 Q. I would like to you listen very carefully to my question, sir,

Page 10592

1 okay?

2 On the 10th of August, isn't it true that your units, or the

3 army, other units in the army, fired mortars or shells at the village of

4 Ljuboten?

5 A. I said what I said and I stand behind it. I cannot fabricate

6 things about the 10th of August.

7 Q. Sir, I am asking to you answer my question.

8 A. But I answered it.

9 Q. You did not --

10 A. I think I said yes.

11 Q. You did. Okay.

12 A. I don't know whether you're listening to me. Everything that I

13 spoke about and what happened on the 10th of August, I spoke and I

14 confirmed facts. How can I say that we were not firing when we were

15 firing. I stand behind what I said. I'm a witness here, aren't I?

16 Q. And isn't it true, sir, that on the 10th of August a child was

17 killed by the shelling of the village that your units were firing at the

18 village?

19 A. I never said that. Maybe a child was killed. I couldn't say it.

20 Q. Sir, did you report the fact that your positions were being fired

21 upon from the village on the 10th of August to your commander?

22 A. Again, the commander that is on that position, he is the person

23 that reports, and he reports to the commanding post. He's the person

24 that reports on the fires -- firing, where the firing comes from and

25 reports this information to the command centre, and I precisely said who

Page 10593

1 was the person that was commander-in-chief and who was the person that

2 was reporting the information.

3 Q. On that day, sir, it was Commander Brasnarski. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the reason, sir, as far as you know or you understand that

6 the commander, whether it be the commander at the position or some other

7 commander, reports back is ultimately -- that information makes it up to

8 the battalion commander. The information -- or the observations or the

9 information that is received at Smok ultimately goes back to the command

10 centre and makes it to the battalion commander. Isn't that right?

11 A. I am not a military expert. I don't know this commanding stuff.

12 I'm an ordinary soldier, a peasant. Whether information arrived in the

13 commanding centre and from where, I wouldn't know. What I said is what I

14 stand behind. Brasnarski, what he said and what his report was about, I

15 already spoke about this briefly.

16 Q. I appreciate that, sir. But even as an ordinary soldier, or

17 ordinary reservist, you know that you give information to your immediate

18 commander and then that commander passes that information to his

19 commander and then it makes its way up the chain of command to the

20 ultimate commander. Isn't that the way it works in the army?

21 A. Normally, of course.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you.

23 A. But I'm not the person --

24 MS. ISSA: I would just like to turn to tab 29, which is Exhibit

25 P301.

Page 10594

1 Q. Now I appreciate, sir, that this is not your report. It's the

2 report of Major Despodov who was the battalion commander. But if I can

3 ask you to have a look at that report, either on your screen or in the

4 binder in front of you. And specifically if I can ask you to have a look

5 at the second page of the report, you would agree with me, sir, that

6 there's nothing in the report that refers to your positions being fired

7 at from the village of Ljuboten, is there?

8 A. I don't know whose this is. You say this is of the commander.

9 This is their statement. I didn't give any statements like this.

10 Q. I appreciate that, sir. I'm simply asking you to look at the

11 report. I know you didn't give the statement and there's nothing in that

12 report that refers to shootings coming from within the village. Just

13 requires a yes or no answer.

14 A. I did not write this so I cannot respond neither yes or no.

15 Q. I take it, sir --

16 A. I cannot respond to this. I absolutely don't agree. I have not

17 given this statement. I don't know who wrote this.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.

19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] My apologies for interrupting,

20 Your Honours. But it would be fair to have the first page read out to

21 the witness as well, not just the last passage, so that the witness can

22 hear this page being read out loud to him.

23 JUDGE PARKER: I suspect that there will be no value in doing

24 that given his very firmly expressed attitude to the whole report. Thank

25 you, though, Mr. Apostolski.

Page 10595

1 At a convenient point we will break. You tell me when you think

2 it is convenient, Ms. Issa.

3 MS. ISSA: It's actually convenient now, Your Honour. Thank you.

4 JUDGE PARKER: We will have the first break now, resuming at 20

5 minutes past 4.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.


9 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like you to please turn, with the assistance of

11 Madam Usher, to tab 9 of your binder, which is P305, the war diary of the

12 3rd Guardist Battalion, and I'm going to page N001-4734. And I will read

13 out to you the portions that I'm referring to.

14 And on the date of the 10th of August, 2001, the war diary, which

15 describes the events that took place on that date, says: "In the area of

16 Basinec at about 7.45 in the morning, a vehicle of the 2nd Company had

17 hit two explosive devices, planted by terrorists in ambush while bringing

18 soldiers on a regular shift at the check-point Zdravec, on the way back.

19 During this, seven soldiers were killed and one soldier, later at the

20 military hospital in Skopje. We fired with all our weapons to the

21 ambush, as well as with artillery weapons. After three hours of fight,

22 we smashed the terrorist group and they withdrew towards Jesmenica and

23 Bacila, whereas a part of the group was noticed as they withdrew towards

24 Ljuboten village and we fired on them."

25 Now, that's the entry, sir, in its entirety that refers to the

Page 10596

1 10th of August 2001, and I'm just going to put it to you again and ask

2 you to answer yes or no, there's no reference in the war diary of that

3 date of firing from within the village as you had described earlier, is

4 there?

5 A. Who made this log? I don't know this, and therefore I cannot say

6 anything.

7 Q. The question is simple, sir. There is no reference in what I

8 read out to that -- to what you described earlier as firing coming from

9 within the village. I'm not asking you about who made this log and what

10 you can say. There's just nothing in there that refers to that, is

11 there? Yes or no.

12 A. What I knew I said about the shooting, and this is written in the

13 command and everywhere. I said this very precisely.

14 Q. Sir, I know what you've said. I'm asking you a different

15 question now. And I would ask you - we're almost at the end of the

16 examination - to please answer the questions as I ask them, not repeat

17 what you've said earlier.

18 Yesterday, sir, you testified that on the 11th of August you left

19 your position at Smok and attended the funeral of those reservists who

20 were killed in the Ljubotenski Bacila mining incident. Do you recall

21 that?

22 A. Yes, I recall.

23 Q. Did others in your unit also leave their position at Smok and

24 attend the funeral?

25 A. A part. What I said already was very precise. Some of us from

Page 10597

1 the village who requested to go, there were 100 soldiers from the

2 village, those from the village of Ljubanci, we asked of the commander to

3 give us leave to go to the funeral. So my answer is yes.

4 Q. If there was a barrage of firing against your position, sir, as

5 you described occurred the day before, how is it that you and others

6 could leave your positions to attend the funeral in Ljubanci?

7 A. Very precisely, on the 11th, on Saturday, we asked the commander

8 that we go to the funeral, and he gave us leave and we attended the

9 funeral in Ljubanci. This was very precisely said.

10 Q. Sir --

11 A. This is the way it was.

12 Q. Wasn't there a concern, sir, that firing against your positions

13 would continue on the 11th of August?

14 A. There was concern but I cannot attest to this, because I wasn't

15 on the position on that day.

16 Q. You said, sir, that you were very upset by the tragedy and had

17 trouble sleeping that night and presumably the men in your unit were also

18 very upset after the explosion on the 10th of August. Is that right?

19 A. Yes, it is right.

20 Q. Sir, are you still upset by that tragedy?

21 A. I will be upset by this as long as I live. I cannot forget that

22 picture just like that. This is a tragedy that happened. It's something

23 that drives me still to jump up in the middle of the night but this is

24 not something for me to say here. This tragedy will remain with me as

25 long as I'm alive.

Page 10598

1 Q. Do you feel, sir, that you need to support the actions of the

2 police by your testimony today?

3 A. What support do you mean? You say the support. Our security

4 forces. I always say this and I won't change this.

5 Q. Do you feel, sir, that you need to support the accused by your

6 testimony today?

7 A. Not to support them. What I knew I said, plain and clear, before

8 this Chamber. I had no order to give such support, nor can I say who did

9 what or why and how. They're experts who think about these things. I am

10 a villager, a peasant soldier. I cannot issue commands, I cannot issue

11 orders.

12 Q. Sir, I didn't ask you that.

13 A. I made this quite clear.

14 Q. I'm going to put to you a couple of propositions now, sir, and

15 I'm going to ask you if you agree or you disagree or you don't know. And

16 the questions that I'm going to put to you only require the answers, yes,

17 no, or I don't know. Okay?

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. I put it to you, sir, that on the 12th of August, the police went

20 into a number of houses and either beat or killed the men in those houses

21 who were unarmed civilians. Do you agree with that?

22 A. No. I cannot agree with this when I did not see.

23 Q. Okay. I put it to you, sir, that you either did not see the

24 illegal activity of the police or you're not being entirely candid or

25 truthful about your observations on the 12th of August. Do you agree

Page 10599

1 with that?

2 A. No, cannot agree with this. I have been sincere and truthful and

3 honest. I'm not making anything up. I cannot say something that I've

4 made up. Honesty to me is a very important thing.

5 Q. I think you've answered my question. Thank you.

6 MS. ISSA: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Issa.

8 Mr. Apostolski.

9 Ms. Residovic.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the purpose of

11 the transcript I would like to say that I did not and do not have any

12 questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE PARKER: I understood the questions were asked by you

14 yesterday.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, this was the

16 case with the other witness. Perhaps I omitted to say this before my

17 learned colleague began her cross-examination. So I just wanted to make

18 this comment for the purpose of the transcript.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it is my failing, and I'm very sorry and

20 apologise if you were not called on. I regret that, I'm sorry.

21 Mr. Apostolski.

22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Re-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I will just have a few more questions

25 for you.

Page 10600

1 Do you recall when the Prosecutor asked you today, saying that a

2 combatant is someone who is wearing a uniform?

3 A. Yes, I recall.

4 Q. What is a person to you, someone who is wearing civilian clothing

5 and a weapon?

6 A. A combatant of some sort. Since he is carrying weapons, it must

7 be a combatant.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 A. You're welcome.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be

11 shown P203, page 2.

12 Q. You can see this on the screen, Witness.

13 Can you see the colour of the clothing of this person?

14 A. Dark colour. What other colour can I say?

15 Q. If the jacket of this person were to be zipped up, and if you are

16 looking at this person from the position where you're at, what would this

17 person look like to you? What colour would this seem to you?

18 A. Black, of course. How can I say otherwise? How can I say white

19 when it's black?

20 Q. In that period, a marking of the NLA, was said to be black

21 clothing. Do you remember this?

22 A. Yes, I remember. They were wearing black T-shirts, black

23 uniforms. I can't make up something and say that they were wearing

24 brown. I said this quite clearly.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 10601

1 A. You're welcome.

2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could now the witness be shown

3 page 3 of the same exhibit, P203.

4 Q. Can you tell how this person is dressed?

5 A. This is a photograph turned towards the sun, but I can see that

6 it is a dark colour, that it's not yellow.

7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] For the purpose of the

8 transcript, I would like to say that these are the victims Kadri Jashari

9 and Bajram Jashari.

10 Can the witness now please be shown 2D64.

11 Q. Do you see two pictures in front of you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The picture to the right --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- there's a person with a number 12 next to him and a person

16 standing next to this person. Can you tell us how this person is

17 dressed?

18 A. The person on the right is dressed in black.

19 Q. What does he have on his feet?

20 A. Sneakers.

21 Q. What does he hold in his hand?

22 A. A Black Arrow.

23 Q. What is a Black Arrow?

24 A. This is a weapon with a range of 10.000 metres, 5.000 metres is a

25 precise firing range.

Page 10602

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Now can the witness please be

2 shown 2D67.

3 Can we see the photograph on the right, and to enlarge it?

4 Q. Do you see this photograph in front of you?

5 A. Yes, I see it.

6 Q. Do you see how the persons on this photograph are dressed?

7 A. Yes. They're dressed differently. I cannot see quite well on

8 this picture. They're dressed differently.

9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could we please now go to 2D56.

10 Q. Do you recognise the person marked with the number 5?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us who this is?

13 A. This is their commander.

14 Q. What is his name? If you know.

15 A. At the moment I'm very excited. He is in the parliament now.

16 His name escapes me.

17 Q. Very well. Do you see the person with the number 7 and what --

18 and the colour of his clothes?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What is the colour of his clothes?

21 A. Black.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

24 questions for this witness.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.

Page 10603

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE PARKER: You will be pleased to know, sir, that that

3 concludes the questions for you. We would thank you for your attendance

4 here in The Hague and you will now be able to return to your home and

5 your normal activities, and the court officer will now show you out.

6 Thank you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE PARKER: Now, are there any procedural matters that can be

9 dealt with at this point while we have some time?

10 Mr. Saxon.

11 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Your Honour, with respect to the matter of translations, I would

13 like to put on the record that a Macedonian translation of Exhibit P00494

14 has now been linked to the original English version. This exhibit is a

15 report from the international crisis group Macedonia, the last chance for

16 peace, and the -- it is ERN MT-N002-5224 to 5245. And in addition,

17 Your Honour, a Macedonian translation of Exhibit P00298 has now been

18 linked on e-court. This was a map of the Ljuboten area, indicating

19 positions of Macedonian security forces.

20 Moving to another topic, Your Honour, you may recall that on the

21 6th of November of last year, Your Honour instructed myself and

22 Mr. Mettraux to meet and discuss what is Exhibit 1D00229 and come to an

23 agreement as to which pages of that lengthy document should be admitted

24 into evidence, and this is at page 7383 to 7384 of the transcript. And

25 I'm pleased to report that, myself and Mr. Mettraux, we have come to an

Page 10604

1 agreement and the pages that should be --

2 And, Your Honours, if you allow me I will simply read into the

3 record the pages that should be treated as admitted.

4 The first would be a report from Butan 1, dated 8th of August,

5 2001, bearing the ERN range 1D00-7278-1D00-7279.

6 The second portion would be a Butan 1 report, dated the 10th of

7 August, 2001, bears ERN number 1D00-7281.

8 The third portion is a Butan 1 report, dated the 23rd of August,

9 2001, bearing ERN number 1D00-7301-1D00-7304.

10 And lastly, Your Honour, a Butan 1 report dated 9th of August,

11 2001, bearing ERN range 1D00-7279-1D00-7280.

12 I don't know if my colleague wants to make any comment about this

13 or not.

14 MR. METTRAUX: Very briefly, Your Honour. I think that Mr. Saxon

15 was correct to the extent that we have agreed to the material that had

16 been used to be tendered at this stage by the Prosecution. We do

17 believe, however, that we had indicated to Mr. Saxon, and I apologise if

18 that was misunderstood, but that we had in fact reservation about the

19 admission of one such report which is the one from the 23rd of August of

20 2001 which is 1D00-7301-1D00-7304. The reason for it, Your Honour, was

21 the indication given by the Chamber at the time that only those parts of

22 the report which had actually been used or shown to a particular witness

23 should be tendered by the parties. And this is our understanding, that

24 this particular report was not used or not shown to any particular

25 witness, and I would stand corrected if Mr. Saxon believes that this is

Page 10605

1 the case.

2 MR. SAXON: Actually, when Mr. Mettraux and I had spoken about

3 this matter and I went back and checked the records regarding the pages

4 which the Prosecution wished to admit, I realised that I had suggested a

5 particular ERN range which, indeed, the Prosecution had not used and so I

6 have admitted to put that ERN range in the record. I could be wrong. It

7 had been my understanding that the Butan 1 report from 23 August 2001,

8 bearing the ERN range 1D00-7301-1D00-7304, was actually a portion of this

9 document that the Defence wished to tender. If I am wrong about that, I

10 am perfectly happy to retract those pages as well.

11 MR. METTRAUX: I'm grateful to Mr. Saxon, Your Honour. I believe

12 we have tendered those parts of the larger document that we wished to

13 tender and I believe that was not one of them.

14 MR. SAXON: I don't understand that last comment because I

15 thought that we had been told to come to an agreement as to which parts

16 of the documents we were going to tender, Your Honours.

17 MR. METTRAUX: Perhaps for clarification sake, Your Honour, we

18 have sought to tender in one of our bar table motion a number of section

19 of that same documents. And this particular part of the report that

20 Mr. Saxon just read was not one of them, so we haven't sought to tender

21 this part.

22 JUDGE PARKER: You mean you're prepared to run the risk of not

23 having any part of this admitted on the bar table motion.

24 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, we believe that pursuant to

25 your own indications we had limited application for admission to those

Page 10606

1 part which had been used which would mean that this particular part was

2 not sought to be tendered by the Defence for this reason.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we seem to have no agreement in this

4 agreement. So you're happy to withdraw the 23rd of August.

5 MR. SAXON: Yes, I am, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. That will not be received. By

7 consent, the other three reports that have been identified by Mr. Saxon,

8 will now comprise Exhibit 1D239.

9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm sorry, that should be Exhibit 1D229.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE PARKER: A very helpful suggestion from the registry

13 officer, this exhibit will be 1D229.1, so that the whole report will

14 remain as -- or the whole bundle will remain marked for identification,

15 which will ensure, among other things, that we are in a position to deal

16 with Mr. Mettraux's motion.

17 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may I raise one more brief matter?


19 MR. SAXON: Although I fear that I may be sounding like a broken

20 record or a broken CD now, I have the sad duty to inform the Chamber that

21 the Prosecution team is losing yet another member of its -- of its team.

22 Ms. Issa has been called back to her office with the Crown Prosecutor's

23 department in Toronto and she will soon be leaving the Tribunal, and so

24 you may not see her again after today. And I would just like to extend

25 my thanks to Ms. Issa for the fine contributions that she has made to the

Page 10607

1 work of the Prosecution and to this Tribunal.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, I think we have had reason to comment

3 in the past on the frequency with which news such as this has had to be

4 given to us by you. We appreciate the difficulty that has created for

5 you and those assisting you.

6 For Ms. Issa, it has been a short stay here, and we would wish

7 you well as you return to your duties in Canada, and thank you for your

8 assistance.

9 MS. ISSA: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any other matter?

12 That being so, we will now adjourn for the day. I thank counsel

13 for their assistance in ensuring that we did not waste time. We resume

14 on Monday in the morning. I have to attend a ceremony shortly before

15 9.00 on Monday for the swearing in of another Judge, and it may be that I

16 will be a few minutes late.

17 Subject to that, we will adjourn until 9.00 a.m. on Monday

18 morning.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.58 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of March,

21 2008, at 9.00 a.m.