Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1277

1 Friday, 1 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning. Please call the case and bring the

5 accused in. Thank you.

6 [The accused entered court]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: The usual routine, Mr. Brdjanin. I would like you

10 to confirm to me that you are hearing me in a language that you can

11 understand.

12 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

13 I can hear you and I understand you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And General Talic, good morning to you too. Are you

15 in a position to make the same affirmation?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I

17 can hear you and I do understand you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And while we are at it, may I remind you of what I

19 told you yesterday, and I would like you to confirm again what you

20 confirmed to me yesterday since your counsel, Mr. de Roux and Mr. Pitron,

21 are not present today as well, whether we have your consent to go ahead as

22 you actually promised yesterday.

23 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] I agree that we can continue

24 the proceedings.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

Page 1278

1 So appearances. Prosecution.

2 MR. CAYLEY: May it please Your Honours, my name is Cayley. I

3 appear with Ms. Korner on behalf of the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope you don't take this as a need that the

5 Presidency of the Trial Chamber has to refresh its memory as to who is

6 appearing in the Chamber. In fact, if you agree, we might as well do

7 without this, but I was told there was a custom here that they resort to

8 this, but frankly, once we have a trial that we've started and which will

9 go on for God knows how long, we could as well forget all about it. I

10 mean --

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I just remarked to Mr. Cayley that I've

12 never understood why each day we have to announce who we are.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: For Mr. Brdjanin.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think the only purpose of this

15 exercise is so that the record shows who was actually in Court

16 representing the accused on that particular day, and I believe we have

17 court reporters that are smart enough to figure that out and can put that

18 in the record just as a routine thing every morning.

19 In any event, at least today it's John Ackerman for Mr. Brdjanin,

20 along with Ms. Tania Radosavljevic, Milka Maglov, and Milos Peric. Thank

21 you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and for General Talic.

23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am Natasha

24 Fauveau-Ivanovic, a lawyer from the Paris bar, and I am replacing

25 Mr. Pitron and Mr. de Roux, and I am assisted by Mr. Fabien Masson.

Page 1279

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So are there any things or matters that you would

2 like to bring up, raise before we start, continue with the

3 cross-examination of Dr. Donia?

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, only to say that the list will be

5 available, I hope by the break, where all the documents come from, which

6 can then be given to counsel for the Defence.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect, Ms. Korner.

8 So please bring in the witness, Dr. Donia.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Where is he?

10 MR. CAYLEY: I did see him, Your Honour, this morning. I wasn't

11 speaking to him because he is now under cross-examination.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I was beginning to worry he went back to the

13 States. Here he is.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Dr. Donia.

16 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Please make the solemn declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

19 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


21 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down. Mr. Ackerman will resume --

22 continue with his cross-examination. Please go ahead, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]

25 Q. Good morning, Dr. Donia. How are you this morning?

Page 1280

1 A. Good. Good.

2 Q. I guess I would be remiss, having looked at all of the other

3 cross-examinations that people have done of you, if I didn't say you've

4 got a foundation called the Donia Vakuf Foundation, do you not?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Where did you come up with the name "Donia Vakuf"?

7 A. The name came from the municipality of Donja Vakuf, which is very

8 close to my name.

9 Q. And because your name is Donia, Donia Vakuf just flowed together

10 for you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. At the time you did that, were you aware of the meaning of the

13 word "Vakuf"?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what that word means?

16 A. "Vakuf" is a Serbo-Croatian word that is a derivative of the

17 Arabic "wakif," which means a charitable foundation established typically

18 by wealthy Muslim family to endow a particular religious, cultural, or

19 educational institution.

20 Q. Would you say that it most often has a religious connotation to

21 it?

22 A. A blend often of the three, really. Since most educational

23 institutions are religious in nature, I would say yes, it most often

24 does.

25 Q. Okay. I want to look at Prosecution Exhibit Number 13, which is

Page 1281

1 at Tab 10 of Book 1 and ask you to go to page 13 of that document.

2 A. Mr. Ackerman, may I ask the tab number again? I'm sorry.

3 Q. 10.

4 A. And page?

5 Q. 13.

6 The speaker is Dr. Karadzic, correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In that first full paragraph following the round of applause,

9 about two-thirds of the way down, Dr. Karadzic, in speaking of the Serb

10 nation, says, does he not, that, "It is a nation well known for its

11 tendency towards disunity and discord due to its strong individualistic

12 nature"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If you look at the reports of all of these assembly sessions that

15 we have in here, that tends to be -- that statement tends to be proven by

16 the nature of some of the arguments that we see going on in the sessions,

17 that these people are not agreeing with each other all the time and there

18 is quite a bit of discord and disunity going on among them. Correct?

19 A. Well, these sessions certainly support that view, yes.

20 Q. And you see the disputes that were going on between what I was

21 calling yesterday the Pale group and the Banja Luka group or, as you

22 corrected me, the Sarajevo group and the Banja Luka group. Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, this particular document that we're looking at right now is

25 the session of 12 July 1991. On 12 July 1991, it is still the position,

Page 1282

1 is it not, of Karadzic and his followers that Bosnia-Herzegovina should

2 remain a part of Yugoslavia?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And this meeting was mostly -- I would say mostly characterised by

5 disagreements over the issue of regionalisation and what form that was to

6 take?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And on page 25 of that meeting, I think -- yes, it's page 25,

9 Dr. Karadzic speaking again. About halfway down you'll find a sentence

10 that I think that reads as follows:

11 "I have to say one thing. We have to preserve the strength of

12 the party not to give in to power-grabbing impulses and the little

13 Napoleons who are trying to do things that will harm the Serbian people."

14 I take it that you would agree that he was talking about that

15 Banja Luka group and perhaps Mr. Brdjanin in particular when he talked

16 about "little Napoleons"?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It's at this point, is it not, that Dr. Karadzic starts to talk

19 about his concept of what -- how regionalisation is to work.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He says, does he not, there, as we get down to, like, the last

22 quarter of page 25:

23 "I assure you, municipal boards do not want to have any umbrella

24 over them except for the main board. Regional boards are thus a place

25 where the work of all municipal boards in a region is coordinated and not

Page 1283

1 a power above the municipal boards. To be more specific and to take an

2 example, it was said at the time in Bosnian Krajina, Bosanski Novi ..."

3 which is municipality; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. "... Bosanski Novi said, `All right, we will do it, but don't

6 think that we will allow Banja Luka to be to Bosanski Novi what Sarajevo

7 is to Banja Luka.' It would not be democratic. Quite the contrary; it

8 would be anti-democratic -- it would be an anti-democratic ..."

9 And then the next page:

10 "... framework in which we would make it impossible for individual

11 municipalities to work directly with the main board."

12 Continuing:

13 "I think it is sufficient for the regional board to be composed

14 of all the presidents of municipal boards and for them to coordinate their

15 work there. In that way, it is impossible to force any municipal

16 organisation or municipal board to do anything. It is the only way."

17 If you go to the next page. About a third of the way down of page

18 27:

19 "It is better to have the entire municipal board making decisions

20 than for it to become alienated. Power corrupts, gentlemen."

21 The next paragraph:

22 "Just as regional boards, which would be a power structure above

23 municipal boards instead of coordinating bodies, would be a source of

24 great trouble and would cause a great deal of screaming and wailing in the

25 municipal boards."

Page 1284

1 Near the bottom last full paragraph:

2 "Thus we from the main board are not a power above the municipal

3 boards either except for the fact that we ask them to implement party

4 policies."

5 Now, those were all of the -- or many of the things that

6 Dr. Karadzic said about this, the concept of regionalisation; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If we go then to page 28. In that first paragraph you find the

9 language:

10 "That is why we have decided regional boards, yes. They are

11 coordinating bodies made up of the presidents of the municipal boards, and

12 no one has power over others. But we have to be on our guard lest we

13 should institutionalise it, impose it, and create conditions for power

14 grabbing."

15 Now, one thing that Dr. Karadzic is saying there is just sort of

16 an obvious concession to the reality of the situation that the municipal

17 boards tended to be the main source of power and very jealous of all their

18 prerogatives. And as -- is that correct?

19 A. Yes. I just -- he is speaking here at a party meeting of party

20 boards. I think that's perhaps clear, but just to make that distinction.

21 He makes occasional references to municipal assemblies, but he's speaking

22 principally of municipal boards of the SDS.

23 Q. But municipal assemblies are basically the same sort of

24 organisations.

25 A. No, they're not.

Page 1285

1 Q. Well, let me -- let me put that in a different way. The boards of

2 the municipalities are elected representatives from the people that live

3 in the municipality.

4 A. The municipal board of the party, the SDS, I wouldn't characterise

5 it that way, no.

6 Q. I'm talking about a municipal assembly.

7 A. A municipal assembly consists of those deputies -- at this time,

8 those deputies who were elected in the multi-party election of November

9 1990.

10 Q. And when you're talking about the situation that developed in the

11 ARK region with the establishment of Serbian municipalities, in many cases

12 you're talking about the same people serving on the -- in the municipal

13 assemblies as were serving on the municipal boards of the SDS.

14 A. This -- these remarks are made at a time well in advance of the

15 creation of Serbian assemblies.

16 Q. There's no question about that. But what Dr. Karadzic is talking

17 about is the nature of the Serbian people and with regard to their -- of

18 the power politics that go on between and among them.

19 A. Well, I agree there is a tendency to, say, refer to the SDS and

20 government in kind of overlapping terms, but his comments here which are

21 in the context of the discussion of the statute of the SDS pertain to the

22 party.

23 Q. Yes, I understand that. That's not the point I'm trying to make

24 with you. The point I'm trying to make with you is this: The Serb

25 people, the Serb representatives who made up the municipal assemblies,

Page 1286

1 were primarily SDS, certainly Serbs, and certainly part of this

2 contentious people that he talks about here, the same people; not

3 necessarily the same names, but the same people. And what he says about

4 the jealousies of power and how those people in the municipalities are

5 reluctant to be told by anyone else what to do, that they feel like they

6 are a power in themselves, tends to be the way those people felt; when

7 they were elected in municipalities, that they were the power in that

8 municipality and certainly didn't want anybody except perhaps the

9 Republican government making policy for them.

10 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I'm going to object at this point. This

11 is not a question. This is a speech. Dr. Donia has already made the

12 point this speech by Dr. Karadzic was made in July of 1991. That is well

13 before the Serbian assemblies were even formed. And here, Mr. Ackerman is

14 testifying.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You are perfectly right that it is a statement more

16 than a question, and a long one at that. So without asking for a reply

17 from you, I would like you to rephrase your statement into a question and

18 put it direct to the witness, because the objection raised is very much a

19 valid one.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I think I'll just go forward.



23 Q. Would you look, please, at page 29.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Right at the bottom, Dr. Karadzic says: "A part of our main board

Page 1287

1 broke away and created something they called the homeland front, not

2 Kupresanin's front but some other homeland front, which is doing stupid

3 things, beating its head against a brick, pushing forward without any

4 political logic, and causing great political damage to the Serbian

5 people."

6 Do you know what he's talking about?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Would you go to page 90 of this document. I think maybe you have

9 to go back two pages before those lists of people, but it's true, is it

10 not, that what they are doing at this point is they are voting for members

11 of the main board from the various areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

12 actually electing members of the main board?

13 A. Right, the main board of the SDS.

14 Q. Yeah. And I'm drawing your attention to page 90, which involves

15 the vote for persons from the Bosnian Krajina, and it lists in order the

16 candidates from the Bosnian Krajina and the number of votes that each one

17 of them received, and then lists the eight who were the highest

18 vote-getters as having been elected to the main board. Correct?

19 A. Yes, on page 91 -- right.

20 Q. Yes. In the list of candidates and the list of those elected,

21 Mr. Brdjanin's name does not appear at all, does it?

22 A. No, it does not.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Excuse me, it does not appear as a contestant

24 either.

25 THE WITNESS: It does not appear either as a contestant, as a

Page 1288

1 candidate, nor as being elected.


3 Q. Under Tab 1, you will find Prosecution Exhibit 16. And the place

4 I want to refer you in that document is to -- first of all, this document

5 is a document from the ZOBK. Correct?

6 A. Yes, the Presidency of the ZOBK.

7 Q. Yes. Dated 6th September, 1991.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And signed by Vojo Kupresanin?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In paragraph 2 of that, he says, "Having examined the data and

12 reports from the war-affected area, the Presidency decided that the facts

13 reveal a considerable concentration of the Republic of Croatia armed

14 forces in the territory of Okucani and Stari Gradiska and their activities

15 against the Serb civilian population.

16 What is it he's referring to there?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Look at the next document, which is Prosecution Exhibit 17 under

19 Tab 14.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. Under paragraph -- first of all, what's happening there is this is

22 a decision, if you go back to page 29, on the verification of the

23 proclaimed Serbian autonomous regions in Bosnia and Herzegovina, is it

24 not?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 1289

1 Q. And the first two lines, it indicates that one of those regions

2 that's being verified is the ARK.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Go then to the next page, paragraph 3: "The rights and

5 obligations of the Serbian autonomous districts, the manner in which these

6 rights and obligations are exercised, organisation of bodies, and other

7 matters significant for the exercise of rights and obligations of the

8 Serbian autonomous districts shall be regulated by separate decision."

9 Can you point us to that separate decision?

10 A. The decision I would assume this is looking forward to would be

11 the constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I know of

12 no other separate decision that was undertaken by the assembly of the

13 Serbian people.

14 Q. Wouldn't you think if it was talking about the constitution, it

15 would say "matters significant for the exercise of rights and obligations

16 of the Serbian autonomous districts shall be regulated by the

17 constitution"?

18 A. No. In the flow of events, this -- your first document, I

19 believe, was to 6 September 1991. This meeting is on 21 November 1991, so

20 some, what, two and-a-half months later. By this time, the decision to

21 form a Serbian republic was under consideration but had not been declared;

22 and furthermore, the notion of a constitution would have at this point

23 been considered a provocation to the other groups and international

24 negotiators just as it was in February 1992.

25 Q. Could you go to Prosecution's Exhibit 17B - that's the B/C/S

Page 1290

1 version of this document - and find that same paragraph in B/C/S for me

2 and tell me what page it's on. I think you'll find it on page 32.

3 A. It is on page 32 as I see the reference. I'm sorry.

4 Q. It's paragraph three and page 32, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yes?

7 A. On 30 -- yes. 31 and 32 are reversed, in the reverse order here.

8 Q. They are in mine, too.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The word that is -- the word in Serbo-Croatian that's used in

11 paragraph 3 that is translated as "decision" is the word "odlukom," which

12 is commonly translated as "decision," is it not?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. I mean, it's not possible or realistic to translate that word as

15 "constitution," is it?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. This -- this document and a number of the documents that

18 we've been looking at for the last several days, Dr. Donia, are

19 transcripts of the meetings of various boards, assemblies, organisations,

20 things of that nature?

21 A. Yes, they are.

22 Q. And much of what we've been looking at are speeches made by

23 various delegates or members of these various deliberative bodies;

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1291

1 Q. And you and I have both read portions of those speeches here in

2 open court to the Trial Chamber.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In terms of -- of what is -- what is actually established as law

5 or policy, it's not, however, the speeches made by the politicians but

6 the -- the laws and policies that are adopted after those speeches have

7 been made that are really important for our purposes; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. For instance, the context in which you and I would probably best

10 understand it is the United States Congress. We hear speeches on the

11 floor of the United States Congress that go in all kinds of directions,

12 and it would be a mistake to consider them as statements of the United

13 States policy many times, would it not?

14 A. The difference is these people are in attendance, I think, in the

15 Serbian assemblies, and in the United States Congress, often they're not.

16 Q. Yes. When you say "not in attendance," you mean that speeches are

17 made on the floor of the United States Senate by one senator all by

18 himself? Is that what you're saying?

19 A. Yes. And items are entered into the record without the

20 representative even being present.

21 Q. No, that's true. You're talking about the Congressional Record.

22 A. Both, yes.

23 Q. Yes. I wonder if the Trial Chamber has any idea what you and I

24 are talking about now. And I'm not sure it matters.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like you to proceed with further

Page 1292

1 questioning -- [Microphone not activated]

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Look at -- just for an example, if we look at tab 21, page 24 --

4 actually, it's page 13, I think. A person named Nenad Veselinovic is

5 speaking, and he says in the second full paragraph that he has an idea

6 about what should be done, that they should kind of break up

7 municipalities and bring two or three of them together that contain Serb

8 villages and create new Serb -- he's got a whole new idea about how to put

9 this whole thing together is what he's saying in that paragraph, and of

10 course that wasn't ever adopted as policy, it was just this one man's

11 idea; correct?

12 A. It was done in a number of instances within Bosnia-Herzegovina at

13 SDS initiative. This form of regionalisation was practised at the

14 municipal level in ARK municipalities and elsewhere. As I indicated in

15 this session when I talked about it, there is a resolution that is passed

16 here subsequent to this involved discussion about regionalisation, and

17 that document or that resolution endorses, that is, recommends the

18 formation of Serbian municipalities.

19 So this debate, I think, kind of, as is often the case in

20 deliberative bodies such as this, illuminates the intent and the thinking

21 of the delegates about the resolution and the reason it was passed as it

22 was.

23 Q. Well, if you look at that paragraph that I referred you to, maybe

24 you don't agree with my interpretation of what it says, but I think what

25 it says is -- what he is saying is where you have a Serb municipality and

Page 1293

1 next to it is a municipality which is not Serb but has villages that are

2 Serb, that you just go bring those villages into that other municipality,

3 thereby increasing the size of the Serb municipality and diminishing the

4 size of the non-Serb municipality and therefore creating basically a new

5 municipality with a larger geographic area.

6 If you go then to page 28 and look at the bottom of the page,

7 there is a decision and it reads as follows:

8 "The assembly unanimously, with the two mentioned supplements,

9 adopted the proposed recommendation on the establishment of municipal

10 assemblies of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the chairman

11 so noted, adding that the cover letter would specify that this is

12 recommended where necessary and should in no case be across the board

13 because the latter would be unnecessary."

14 Now, how does this square with the 11 December 1991 Variant A and

15 B document? This seems to be saying, "Form the Serbian municipalities on

16 a voluntary basis if you think it's necessary."

17 A. I think that document was 19 December. This is the 11 December

18 assembly of the Serbian people meeting in which the topic of

19 regionalisation is very broadly discussed. A recommendation was brought

20 forward by Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik to form Serbian municipalities.

21 It ran into substantial opposition from a number of deputies, and also

22 some questions of what constituted regionalisation. And if you look at

23 Rajko Dukic's address at this meeting, you will see that he has a similar

24 understanding of regionalisation as Mr. Veselinovic did. But in this very

25 broad discussion, what comes out is a recommendation. It is at this point

Page 1294

1 constituted as a voluntary process for municipal boards to form Serbian

2 assemblies. That voluntary dimension moves into this phase of a mandatory

3 directive with the documentation of 19 December.

4 Q. Well, that raises all kinds of interesting questions, because on

5 the 11th of December, you've got the assembly of the Serbian people saying

6 unanimously that the creation of Serbian assemblies is a voluntary thing

7 and recommending it. Eight days later, in seeming violation of a

8 unanimous decision of the assembly, you've got what is characterised as

9 the SDS Crisis Staff issuing this Variant A, which you say is an order.

10 How could they do that in the face of an assembly decision eight days

11 earlier absolutely to the contrary? It would seem that the assembly is a

12 higher power than the SDS Crisis Staff, is it not?

13 A. Well, I think the SDS assumed its complete control of the assembly

14 and took the course of issuing these instructions on the 19th of

15 December. This was then followed by the declaration of dozens of Serbian

16 municipalities in Bosnia, some of them created immediately; some of them

17 created well into February. And in February, we see, at the session of

18 the 24th of February -- and many things have transpired in the meantime.

19 But at the 24th of February, at that session, this has now reached the

20 point where the leadership of the SDS at the Bosnian Serb assembly session

21 says in a resolution, "This must be done in three days." There is a

22 process here that moves forward from being a voluntary act by local boards

23 to being required by the SDS main board or crisis staff, whichever, and

24 finally being required by the Bosnian Serb assembly with a deadline

25 provided, the same progressive steps that were followed in the affiliation

Page 1295

1 of municipalities with the ARK. Over time, these approaches changed,

2 became more mandatory, and were actually enforced by the assembly.

3 Q. So it appears, then, that where we have gotten to with regard to

4 this, Doctor, is that on 11 December, the assembly unanimously adopts this

5 resolution regarding the voluntary establishment of Serbian

6 municipalities. Eight days later, the Variant A/B document comes out

7 which is obviously interpreted by virtually everyone in the municipalities

8 as being a document that is simply implementing the decision of 11

9 December, that means being a voluntary document. And then I think what

10 you're saying is that at some later point, there was then a new decision

11 that "No, this document isn't really voluntary. We're going to order you

12 to do this."

13 A. Exactly.

14 Q. Okay. As long as we're talking about the document under Tab 22,

15 let me refer to it just for a moment. It's Prosecution Exhibit 25. It's

16 your understanding, is it not, that this document -- you believe that this

17 document was circulated by the main board to all of the -- all of the SDS

18 municipal boards?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. There's nowhere in this document where any regional board or any

21 regional organisation, ZOBK or ARK, is instructed to do anything.

22 Correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Nowhere in this document is any responsibility assigned to any

25 regional organisation for its implementation?

Page 1296












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1297

1 A. No.

2 Q. We're going to go now to the next volume, and the first document

3 in that volume is Prosecution Exhibit 33. This exhibit is another meeting

4 of the assembly of the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And this is what became Republika Srpska?

7 A. This is the body that became the assembly of Republika Srpska.

8 Q. Look at page 43. Again, in a speech by Karadzic -- and it's

9 important that we understand this is a speech being made in the assembly

10 of the Serbian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina; not in an SDS meeting, not in

11 a regional meeting, but in the assembly itself. Correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Mr. Karadzic says at the very bottom of page 43, "This assembly is

14 the supreme power of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina." This

15 assembly, not the main board, not Karadzic, no one else, you are the

16 supreme power. Correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So any regional organisation that acquires any power of any form

19 must acquire it as a derivative power from this assembly of the Serbian

20 people?

21 A. This is an assertion of Dr. Karadzic. I don't believe it became

22 resolution. The constitution was adopted three days later, and I would

23 assume that the relationship between this body and any regional entities

24 would be defined in that constitution.

25 Q. Well, this was made in the presence of all of the delegates of the

Page 1298

1 assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I assume they

2 agreed with Mr. Karadzic, or they would have done something differently.

3 And as a matter of fact, practically that's the way it was. That assembly

4 was a supreme power, was it not?

5 A. I'm not certain it was in all cases, no. I just would return to

6 your point that this is a statement in the course of an assembly debate,

7 not a resolution that was passed by this assembly.

8 Q. Well, if Dr. Karadzic viewed the assembly as the source of power

9 and if all of the members of the assembly viewed the assembly as the

10 source of power, then as a practical matter it was the source of power.

11 Where I'm trying to go, and let me get there, in the way the

12 Serbian people organised themselves into what became Republika Srpska, the

13 power was in the government, which was in either Sarajevo or Pale,

14 depending upon what period of time we're talking about. And no regional

15 organisation, regional board, municipal organisation, or municipal board

16 could define its own competence. Its competence had to be defined by the

17 central government. Correct?

18 A. Those relations are spelled out in the constitution that was

19 adopted three days later.

20 Q. Yes, and that's -- what I'm saying is constitutionally correct?

21 A. I couldn't affirm that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness is not a constitutional lawyer. He is

23 an expert historian, but not a constitutional lawyer, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine, Your Honour.

25 Q. Look at page 60. Kupresanin is speaking there. Kupresanin, of

Page 1299

1 course, was the head of ARK or ZOBK, depending on what period of time

2 we're talking about.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And he agrees with Karadzic. He says, "Let them appear before

5 this assembly, which is our supreme authority. It can annul all our

6 decisions. Let them say what they have to say. As far as I'm concerned,

7 this assembly is in the right."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Just out of curiosity, if you look about halfway down the

10 page -- no, skip that. I just read it earlier, apparently.

11 Document -- Prosecution Exhibit 34 is a meeting of the Deputies

12 Club of 28 February 1992; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in that meeting there is a great deal of discussion over the

15 threat by the Krajina, the Bosnian Krajina, to secede and become a

16 republic of its own; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it was the day before the meeting in Banja Luka where Karadzic

19 and other leaders attended to try to deal with that problem.

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Page 19, Nikola Erceg is speaking. Do you know who Nikola Erceg

22 is?

23 A. I believe at this time or shortly thereafter he was the president

24 of the executive council of the ARK.

25 Q. He says the following:

Page 1300

1 "As regards tomorrow, I am simply afraid of what may happen in

2 Banja Luka. I would add that there are indications that Seselj's men, his

3 soldiers, may come tomorrow, too, as a show of strength. The condition

4 for their arrival is the fact that tomorrow is the first day of the

5 referendum. So there will be dramatic events in Banja Luka tomorrow at

6 the same time and in the same place. That's the first day of the

7 referendum. Seselj's show of strength, the session of the Krajina

8 Regional Assembly, with a de facto undefined agenda, in my view, in the

9 sense that it is one thing to define the agenda but the expectations or,

10 rather, there will probably be a proposal to include adoption of the

11 decision on the proclamation of the Republic of Krajina."

12 So at least in Erceg's view, that next day was to be a very

13 crucial day as to whether or not the Krajina would go off on its own;

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. I'm nearly finished, Dr. Donia. One or two more

17 questions.

18 I want to refer to the conclusions that you shared with the Trial

19 Chamber at the close of your direct testimony, what seems like two or

20 three weeks ago.

21 One of the things that you said to the Chamber was that you -- by

22 going through all these documents, you were struck by the fact that there

23 was very little mention of non-Serbs in the various Serb deliberative

24 bodies.

25 A. Yes.

Page 1301

1 Q. I assume that you have spent some time reading transcripts of

2 proceedings of Muslim deliberative bodies, SDA meetings, SDA Municipal

3 Assemblies, HDZ meetings, HDZ assemblies -- HDZ assemblies, all of those

4 other deliberative bodies.

5 A. Some. Much less than -- than I have with these.

6 Q. Have you made any kind of a statistical analysis regarding the

7 frequency with which non-Muslim peoples are mentioned in Muslim

8 deliberative bodies and non-Croat persons are mentioned in Croat

9 deliberative bodies as compared with your observations regarding these

10 Serb deliberative bodies?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Look, if you will, at Prosecution's Exhibit 13 and go to page 58.

13 First, before you go to page 58, look at the first page. What this is, is

14 a meeting of the SDS on 12 July 1991; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On page 58, a speaker by the name of Abdulah Konicija was

17 introduced to the assembly and spoke. Do you know that person's

18 nationality?

19 A. I would conclude, based on his name and also his position, that he

20 was a Bosnian Muslim.

21 Q. The next page, a person named Rabija Subic addressed the

22 assembly. Do you know his nationality?

23 A. It's identified elsewhere as Muslim, Bosnian Muslim.

24 Q. On the next page, Rasim Kadic addressed the assembly. Do you know

25 what his nationality was?

Page 1302

1 A. I do not know what he declared his nationality as.

2 Q. He indicates, does he not, in the first large paragraph, that he

3 attended the founding assembly of the SDA?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The next speaker was Zlatko Lagumdzija, the Vice-President of the

6 SDP. Do you know his nationality?

7 A. I don't know what he defines his nationality as.

8 Q. How about the next speaker, Salko Alicehajic, BH party of

9 Yugoslavs?

10 A. Again, I'm not sure how -- what his declared nationality is.

11 Q. How about Muhamed Cengic? It's pretty clear who he is; correct?

12 A. Well, he's definitely a Bosnian Muslim, now Bosniak, yes.

13 Q. Yes. So it appears that not only were non-Serbs mentioned but

14 actually were in attendance at this meeting; correct?

15 A. Yes. This was a practice for all three national parties, right up

16 until the fall of 1991, to invite and receive greetings from members of

17 other political parties at their founding assemblies and at their major

18 convocations. So the SDA had speakers from the SDS and the SDP come to

19 their meetings. The same with the HDZ. It was a courtesy that was a part

20 of political party practice at that time.

21 Q. Okay. I have no further questions. Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

23 Ms. Fauveau for General Talic, would you like to start your

24 cross-examination now, at least with the introductory part?

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Mr. President.

Page 1303


2 Dr. Donia, you are now going to be cross-examined by Defence

3 counsel for General Talic.

4 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Donia.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. I have a few questions regarding the Second World War before I

8 come to the year 1992. Would you be in agreement that the Serb people in

9 the military Krajina in Croatia and the Serbian people in Bosanska Krajina

10 shared the same destiny during the Second World War?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would you agree that Mr. Tudjman became president of Croatia in

13 1990?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You know that Mr. Tudjman is a historian, don't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Are you aware of the thesis of Mr. Tudjman according to which

18 there was no genocide against the Jewish people during the Second World

19 War?

20 A. He advanced that thesis at one time and later retracted it.

21 Q. Would you agree that during the Second World War, Bosnia was part

22 of the independent state of Croatia governed by a Ustasha regime?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The day before yesterday, you mentioned the Drina River. Was this

25 river the eastern boundary of this independent state of Croatia?

Page 1304

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you tell us, please, whether the Drina River appeared in the

3 speeches of Mr. Tudjman in the years 1990 and 1991?

4 A. Frequently, yes.

5 Q. Do you know whether in the 1990s the official Croatian policy was

6 that Bosnia belonged to Croatia?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Could you confirm that the Croatian and the Serbian peoples were

9 constituent peoples of the Republic of Croatia during the socialist era?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I know that you are not a specialist in constitutional law, but do

12 you know that Croatia proclaimed a new constitution after the elections in

13 1990?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you perhaps know what the status of the Serb people was

16 according to this new constitution?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know what were the demands of the Serb people in Croatia in

19 1990, the initial demands they made?

20 A. Well, I'm not sure that the Serb people had a uniform demand. The

21 SDS party in Croatia sought the same status for the Serbs that they had

22 had under the socialist constitution and subsequently came to demand

23 separate territories.

24 Q. Yes. But as you said, this was later. This was a consequence.

25 Would you agree with that?

Page 1305

1 A. No.

2 Q. Yesterday, you said that there were about 600.000 Serbs in Croatia

3 in 1991.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you give us the source of this figure, please.

6 A. The -- I think the actual number is 589.000 or something,

7 residents of Croatia who identified themselves as of Serbian nationality

8 in the 1991 census.

9 Q. So there was a population census in Croatia in 1991?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you agree that in 1991, the Croatian government no longer

12 had control over the territories inhabited by Serbs in Croatia?

13 A. No, that would depend on when one would speak of that. And it

14 would certainly be true that they did not have effective control over at

15 least some Serbian-inhabited areas.

16 Q. In that case, the census couldn't really be complete, could it?

17 A. Census was taken by -- it was a -- it was taken in all Yugoslav

18 republics, so I don't know that that would mean it could not be complete.

19 Q. So would you allow for the possibility that the authorities of the

20 Serb Krajina in Croatia in 1991 communicated their results to the Republic

21 of Croatia so that this one could have a complete overview of the

22 population census, complete figures for its census?

23 A. I don't know that to be the case, but it is certainly possible,

24 yes.

25 Q. But you can confirm that in 1991, the Serbs in Croatia and the

Page 1306

1 Croats were at war against one another?

2 A. Not at the beginning of 1991.

3 Q. And do you know when exactly the census took place?

4 A. I believe in the first three months of the year.

5 Q. Are you sure of that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Would you agree that Mr. Izetbegovic became president of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina after the elections of 1990?

9 A. He became president of the seven-person presidency, yes.

10 Q. Yesterday, you confirmed that an SS unit was formed of Bosnian

11 Muslims during the Second World War.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Izetbegovic participated in the Second

14 World War as a combatant?

15 A. No.

16 Q. He did not participate, or you don't know?

17 A. Your question was "did I know". I do not know if he did or did

18 not.

19 Q. In your report, you refer to Mr. Izetbegovic's book "The Islamic

20 Declaration."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you tell us when that book was written?

23 A. According to his introductory comments, the book was written

24 between approximately 1990 -- or 1966 and 1970.

25 Q. Could you confirm that it was published again in the year 1990?

Page 1307

1 A. It's been republished a number of times, in 1990 and since, yes.

2 Q. Would you agree that in that book Mr. Izetbegovic wrote that there

3 could be no peace and coexistence between the Muslim people and non-Muslim

4 political and social institutions?

5 A. The book is a broad discussion of his view of Muslim societies.

6 He discusses virtually every country on the face of the earth but never

7 mentions Yugoslavia, never mentions Bosnia. And the purpose, apparent

8 purpose, of his book or tract is to steer a course between conservative or

9 traditional fundamentalist Islam and modernisation, which was at that time

10 represented best by the Shah of Iran. And in the course of this, he

11 constantly chooses between these very modern, western, democratic norms

12 and more traditional Islamic understanding. He -- almost every page, he's

13 finding a middle course between those two. In the course of this, he

14 prescribes what he believes is the best blend or middle ground between

15 these two and defines that in a number of separate sections of the book.

16 Q. Thank you for the explanation, but my question was: Did you find

17 the quotation that I gave you a moment ago in that book? Would you like

18 me to read the quotation once again?

19 A. I'd like to see the book.

20 Q. You haven't read that book?

21 A. I have read the book. I haven't memorised it.

22 Q. And you don't remember this sentence from the book?

23 A. I haven't memorised it. I don't recall that sentence from the

24 book.

25 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President?

Page 1308


2 MR. CAYLEY: If a passage in a book is being put to the witness,

3 then that passage should be put in front of the witness.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. She has just asked the witness whether he

5 wants to see the -- or wants her to read the passage or wants to see the

6 passage. The witness has asked her whether she has got the book. So

7 we'll take it up from there and we will see what the position is.

8 Yes, Ms. Fauveau. Are you going to show the witness the passage?

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, because

10 I have written it down in Serbo-Croatian. So I ...

11 Q. Would you agree that the Serb, Croatian, and Muslim peoples were

12 constituent peoples of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina according to the

13 1974 Constitution?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I have another question that may involve constitutional law. Did

16 you know whether the 1974 Yugoslav Constitution envisaged the cessation of

17 republics -- secession of republics?

18 A. No. I do not know.

19 Q. So I assume that you also don't know that the Yugoslav

20 constitution envisaged the secession of peoples, of nations?

21 A. I'm not familiar with those provisions of the SFRY constitution,

22 no.

23 Q. At the end of your examination-in-chief, you said that numerous

24 institutions such as Crisis Staffs, War Presidencies, and various

25 assemblies were established, which all had as their aim the formation of a

Page 1309

1 state dominated by the Serbs.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Wouldn't it be better to say that the aim of the Serb people was

4 to remain within Yugoslavia?

5 A. That's a different assertion. Many Serbs wished to remain in

6 Yugoslavia, I agree, but that's not what the statement I made was as you

7 read it.

8 Q. But the SDS party of Bosnia wanted the Serbs to remain within

9 Yugoslavia or did they want to create a separate state of Serbs in

10 Bosnia?

11 A. Well, as I think I've indicated, their first position was that

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina should remain a part of federal Yugoslavia as it then

13 existed. Their fallback or contingent position was that there should be a

14 Serbian state created which would supersede that Yugoslav state.

15 Q. Could you look at Prosecution Exhibit number 13, the minutes of an

16 SDS meeting of the 12th of July, 1991, and I think it is page 54.

17 Would you agree that the SDS, at this meeting, defined its

18 principal objectives?

19 A. I don't know that I would characterise it that way. The meeting

20 was held on the first anniversary of the founding of the party and, of

21 course, as a wide-ranging debate. But I don't know that it had as its

22 objective to actually form or reform the party platform.

23 Q. Would you agree that on page 53 of these minutes, we note --

24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] And Mr. President, may I

25 ask permission to read this passage in English as I don't have a French

Page 1310

1 translation.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]...


4 Q. [In English] The basic goal of the party is full and unconditional

5 civil, ethnic, cultural, religious, and economic equality for Serbs in

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina. There can be no leading nations, no satellite

7 nations, no first- and second-class citizens, no state-forming and

8 nonstate-forming elements. It is a goal of the party to improve

9 interethnic relations, strike a balance and to establish reprocity,

10 strengthen the civil peace. It is a goal of the party to have a

11 federative Yugoslavia with an equal and whole federal Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina within it."

13 [Interpretation] Would you agree that this is after all a

14 definition of "objectives"?

15 A. It's a statement of goals by the president of the party.

16 Q. Would you agree that the HDZ and SDA issued declarations of

17 sovereignty on the 15th of October, 1990?

18 A. Delegates of those parties passed in the assembly of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina the declaration of sovereignty on that date.

20 Q. Would you agree that the Serbs did not participate in the adoption

21 of that declaration?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you agree also that the Serbs were a constituent people of

24 Bosnia?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1311

1 Q. Do you know what was the Council of National Equality?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Wouldn't that be the organ that would be competent for a

4 declaration of sovereignty?

5 A. It's a question of law, and I can't really answer that.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct. Please do avoid putting questions that we

7 have already an indication the witness cannot answer or should not even be

8 expected to answer.

9 I would suggest that we stop here; or if you have a few further

10 questions before we go into break, you put them now. Otherwise, we break

11 for 20 minutes or 25 minutes now and resume at 10 to 11.00.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have another two or three

13 questions in this area.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... And then we'll

15 break then.

16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Would you agree that even after this decision taken clearly

18 against the will of the Serb people and the interests of the Serb people,

19 that the SDS continued to seek for a political settlement?

20 A. Part of your question is a premise that it was taken against the

21 will and interest of the Serb people, and I would not necessarily share

22 that formulation of your assumption. I would agree that the SDS continued

23 to participate in - both within Bosnia-Herzegovina and internationally - a

24 quest for a negotiated solution.

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think we could stop now,

Page 1312

1 Mr. President.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour.


4 MS. KORNER: Just before we rise, it would assist simply to know

5 whether to get Mr. Inayat ready, whether Madam Fauveau thinks she will

6 finish by the next break or shortly afterwards. Because if she will, we

7 can deal with the movie.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Fauveau, how much longer do you anticipate

9 your cross-examination will last?

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think I will complete it

11 before the next break.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We will resume any time between 10 to 11.00 and

13 11.00. I would assume that we will take the entire hour and a half

14 following that, and then we'll obviously have a short break, and you have

15 a full hour in which to get ready. Would that be enough?

16 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. I know Mr. Cayley intends to ask

17 some questions in re-examination, but I think even with that, we can call

18 Mr. Inayat and then start anew on Monday.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner. Thank you, Ms. Fauveau.

20 We'll resume at 10 to 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please be seated. Could you bring in

24 Dr. Donia, please. Thank you.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me just a moment, Your Honour. While we're

Page 1313

1 waiting, may I ask if the movie which Ms. Korner is going to play has been

2 previously provided to us? Has it?

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it has. It's actually an edited version

4 because the original runs for something like an hour plus, and we've tried

5 to cut it down. There were two videos. I can't remember the disclosure

6 numbers. One is of the whole area and the second is of Manjaca camp, but

7 the two have been -- I think the technical term is "spliced together" to

8 make a 25-minute movie.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Ms. Fauveau, you can proceed with your

10 cross-examination. Thank you.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Donia, a minute ago you told me that you didn't share the

13 opinion that the decision of the SDA and -- of deputies from the SDA and

14 the HDZ concerning the declaration of sovereignty had been taken against

15 the will of the Serbian people.

16 A. I believe I said I didn't share that formulation of it.

17 Q. You agreed, however, that this declaration had been taken against

18 the will of the SDS.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you tell us how many Serbs there were in Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina? Could you give us a percentage?

22 A. Well, I can't remember the percentage, but 37, 38 per cent.

23 Something like that.

24 Q. And do you know what the percentage of votes the SDS obtained,

25 what percentage the SDS obtained in the votes?

Page 1314

1 A. Not off -- not offhand. They received something around or

2 slightly over 80 per cent of the votes of Serbs living in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 Q. So the vast majority of the Serbian population was following the

5 policies of the SDS.

6 A. The vast majority of the Serb population voted for the SDS in

7 November 1990.

8 Q. When you were being examined, your conclusions were that in the

9 records of various Serbian organs you had seen a reference to a guarantee

10 to the rights that were guaranteed for other people.

11 A. Yes. A number of statements which either instruct subordinate

12 organs or on the face of them speak to the very broad issue of

13 guaranteeing the rights of either Muslims and Croats or other peoples in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 Q. Could you say whether these were particular forms of guarantees or

16 whether it was the will of the SDS to provide the three peoples with

17 exactly the same rights?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Could you have a look at the Prosecutor's document Exhibit number

20 17. I think it is under tab 14. These are notes of the assembly of the

21 Serbian people of the 21st of November, 1991.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you agree that on page 11 Momcilo Krajisnik declared the

24 following, this is the first paragraph:

25 [In English] "In everything we do, we should consider our complex

Page 1315

1 social and political situation. All the proposed solutions must be based

2 on the Constitution and the laws, reflecting the interest of the Serbian

3 people, but not at the expense of other peoples in Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. [Interpretation] And paragraph 3, he said the following:

7 [In English] "The basic principle we should observe in our

8 activities is not to impose the will of the Serbian people on other

9 peoples. We should respect the legitimate will of the Muslims and

10 Croats..."

11 A. Are you going to finish that sentence or ...

12 Q. [No interpretation]

13 A. Sorry, you're in French.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Could you do it or would you like me to do it?

15 A. Go ahead.

16 Q. So Momcilo Krajisnik said:

17 [In English] "We should respect the legitimate will of the Muslims

18 and Croats, but we must not underestimate our advantages expressed through

19 the realistic ratio of political forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina. We must

20 not cede our rights to others."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And at the end of the following paragraph he stated: [In English]

23 "Therefore, we are in favour of a life of equal peoples, a parliamentary

24 life, free of the abuse of the majority vote and the imposition of one

25 people's on others. The essence of our effort is clear: A life together

Page 1316












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1317

1 in our shared state. The assembly, gentlemen, is Serbian, but it also

2 belongs to all those who want a common homeland."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. [Interpretation] When you were being examined, you said that the

5 SDS created the Serbian Municipal Council -- National Council?

6 A. Are you referring to the Serbian National Council in October

7 1990?

8 Q. Yes, that's right.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You said that the importance of this organ was the fact that it

11 had to show that the SDS did not want to accept the results of the

12 electoral process since it insisted on creating institutions which would

13 guarantee the right of veto - the absolute right of veto - to the Serbian

14 people?

15 A. A veto, yes. I'm sorry, I missed part of the translation. I have

16 it now.

17 Yes, I used words similar to that anyway. This was the organ that

18 all three national parties had hoped would be created as one of the three

19 chambers of the assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it was not. Instead,

20 this council of nationalities was provided for within the two existing

21 chambers of peoples and municipalities, and I think I mentioned that the

22 SDS was the only party among the three national parties that formed a body

23 on its own which asserted these rights.

24 Q. But this institution which should have been created and in the end

25 was not was the Peoples' Chamber?

Page 1318

1 A. Well, I don't know whether it should have been created. It was a

2 chamber of peoples that was debated and rejected by the assembly in

3 February of 1990 when it was considering the - either February or July

4 1990 - when it was considering bodies to establish.

5 Q. And this chamber of peoples would have guaranteed to the people of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina the right to a veto?

7 A. Limited right to review and veto certain legislation.

8 Q. Yes, naturally. But this right to a veto would have been

9 guaranteed in the same way to the Serbian people, to the Croatian people,

10 and to the Muslim people?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know that in a programme, in its electoral programme, the

13 SDA also promised the creation of a chamber of peoples?

14 A. Yes, I believe the HDZ did also. All three of them made a major

15 point in the electoral campaign of advocating the creation of a chamber of

16 peoples, complained about the failure to organise it earlier, and promised

17 to organise it after the elections had been held.

18 Q. Now going to go to the subject of regionalisation. You said

19 regionalisation was a term used by the SDS in order to establish zones

20 which would be under the control of one nationality?

21 A. One nationality and a single party.

22 Q. Bosnia and Herzegovina, before the election in 1990, did it have

23 a regional territorial organisation?

24 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand. Perhaps the translation.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects himself. A regional

Page 1319

1 territorial election.

2 A. There was only one election, and that was on November 18, 1990.

3 And then there was two weeks later a follow-up runoff. But there were no

4 regional elections from that time forward, to my knowledge.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Fauveau, if you are referring to any event in

6 particular, you are in cross-examination and you have every right to put a

7 direct question to him. So you can lead the witness in that sense. Thank

8 you.

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Before the elections in 1992, did the municipality -- was the

11 municipality united into certain associations?

12 A. There were several associations of municipalities in existence

13 prior to the elections. Most significant was the city of Sarajevo which

14 was -- consisted of ten municipalities. And I also mentioned the Bihac

15 association of municipalities, and the Banja Luka association of

16 municipalities. Those all existed prior to the election.

17 Q. So you agree that the association of municipalities of Banja Luka

18 existed before the elections in 1992 -- 1990?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know whether before the elections in 1990 the municipality

21 of Kljuc was part of the association of municipalities of Banja Luka?

22 A. No, not offhand. I don't know.

23 Q. Could you have a look at Prosecutor's Exhibit Number 3. It's the

24 first document in the first binder.

25 When you were being examined, you said that this document

Page 1320

1 reflected the decision of the municipal assembly of Kljuc of the 10th of

2 April 1991, the decision to join the association of municipalities of

3 Bosanska Krajina?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you read the first paragraph after the title "The Decision"

6 or, if you prefer, I could read it myself. It's a document in Serbo-Croat

7 so I don't know.

8 A. Yes.

9 [Interpretation] Decision: We hereby confirm the previously-taken

10 decision on the Kljuc municipality joining the association of

11 municipalities of Banja Luka, and we hereby establish that the Kljuc

12 municipality is part of the regional association of Bosanska Krajina, that

13 is now the autonomous region of Bosanska Krajina.

14 Q. Mr. Donia, wouldn't it be right to say that this decision confirms

15 the status quo, that is to say, the existence of the municipalities Kljuc

16 in the association of the municipalities of Banja Luka?

17 A. No. First of all, this document refers to an act of 10 April

18 1991. It clearly dates from a later time. It dates after the ZOBK had

19 taken the name ARK, and it asserts the continuity of the old -- let me

20 call it the old association of municipalities of Banja Luka and the SAO

21 Bosanska Krajina.

22 I would not, however, take that to be an affirmation of that

23 continuity. It is the view of that assembly that that continuity

24 existed. Other municipalities revoked their membership in the Banja Luka

25 association of municipalities at the same time that they voted to join the

Page 1321


2 Q. Yes, but the decision of the 10th of April, 1991, wasn't it a

3 decision confirming the status quo?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You read the first sentence of the document?

6 A. Well, as I say, that -- we haven't read the first sentence of the

7 document, I don't believe.

8 Q. [No translation]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps, Dr. Donia, we could do as we have done on

10 the previous location when you read the totality of this document.

11 THE WITNESS: Actually, I looked now. I believe we have read it

12 before --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. And we --

14 THE WITNESS: -- in totality.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You preferred at the time to read it yourself and

16 have it translated to us.


18 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps you -- now that you are being referred to

19 the very first paragraph, I know that you have read it, I do not have the

20 capacity to memorise it, but perhaps you could read it again and so that

21 we will have the benefit of a translation.

22 THE WITNESS: It was read by someone else.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. But anyway -- yes, exactly. Perhaps we

24 could have it read, and then at least we will have the benefit of knowing

25 what it says.

Page 1322

1 THE WITNESS: I'll be glad to read it.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please go ahead.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although the Municipal Assembly of

4 Kljuc, at a session dated 10 April 1991, confirmed its existence and

5 further adherence to the association of municipalities of Banja Luka

6 and - I can't read this - selected, elected its representatives to the

7 assembly of -- of the municipalities, it therefore has ...

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So you agree that the municipality of Kljuc, on the 10th of April,

10 1991, confirmed its existence and the fact that it would remain within the

11 Municipal Assembly within the association of municipalities of Banja Luka?

12 A. Yes. Now, if I can just be clear about this. This document dates

13 from a later time and refers to the decision of the 10th of April, 1991.

14 Q. Thank you for that information.

15 Would you have a look at the Prosecution's Exhibit P4. It is the

16 following document, I think. It's a decision of the Municipal Assembly of

17 Kljuc, of Titov Drvar, in which this municipality joins the association of

18 municipalities of Bosanska Krajina. This is April 1991.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You said that this decision reflected a decision of the SDS which

21 was taken in April.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Have a look at page 2 of this document, of the decision of Titov

24 Drvar. In paragraph 2 -- doesn't paragraph 2 state: [Previous

25 translation continues]... [In English] "... question at the session held

Page 1323

1 on 29 March 1991, the Executive Committee finalised the draft decision to

2 conclude an agreement joining Titov Drvar municipality to the community of

3 municipalities of Bosanska Krajina"?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. [Interpretation] So had this decision already been taken in March

6 1991?

7 A. As I indicated in my direct testimony, the SDS decision to

8 initiate this process can be dated to early January 1991 according to the

9 party's announcement in April of 1991, and in fact, this document, in the

10 prior paragraph from that that you read, indicates that discussions

11 occurred subsequent to the 25 January 1991 meeting. So the deliberations

12 or discussion about doing this dated to early January. The decision of

13 the SDS board, as announced publicly somewhat later, was taken, I think,

14 on the 6th of April, 1991, at which point, within a few days, it became

15 reality in the Serb-majority municipalities.

16 Q. Have you had the opportunity of seeing this SDS decision?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Mr. Donia, could you tell us what the percentage of Serbs in the

19 municipality of Titov Drvar was in 1991?

20 A. It's very high. I can take a look. According to page 48 of my

21 report citing the 1991 census, it was 16.608 persons or 97 per cent.

22 Q. Could you tell us what the percentage was in 1996?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you agree that today this town is called Croatian Drvar,

25 Hrvatski Drvar?

Page 1324

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. You said that in December 1991, January 1992, several

3 municipalities that did not have a Serbian majority joined the ARK.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell us about the decision concerning the territory, the entire

6 territory of these municipalities. Did this decision concern the entire

7 territories or only part of this territory? If you would like to have a

8 look at the decision, it's Prosecutor's Exhibit 28, which concerns the

9 region of Prijedor.

10 A. Yes, I have that decision.

11 Q. Does this decision concern the entire territory of the

12 municipality of Prijedor or only part of that municipality?

13 A. It does not distinguish within the territory, so it must refer to

14 the entire territory.

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could I read

16 this in Serbo-Croat? Could I read part of the decision in Serbo-Croat?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. "This assembly

19 of the Serbian people of Prijedor municipality unanimously adopts a

20 decision on the joining of the Serbian territories of the Prijedor

21 municipality to the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina."

22 Q. Do you agree that this is only -- that only Serbian territory is

23 concerned or, rather, that the SDS considered to be Serbian territory?

24 A. Yes, Serbian territory is not defined in this resolution, and of

25 course, there were claims at times by the SDS that all territories -- all

Page 1325

1 of any municipality in which the Serbs owned a certain percentage of land

2 as Serb territory. Its meaning is, I think, unclear in this context.

3 There were other municipalities in which they enumerated specific villages

4 which were scattered about the municipality, which would join -- or form

5 the Serbian assembly and in some cases subsequently join the ARK. That's

6 not going on here. There's just a blanket statement of Serbian

7 territory.

8 Q. Could you confirm that the SDS, that its policies were to divide

9 certain municipalities?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Donia, having analysed various documents from the binder

12 before you, did you find any references to the Yugoslav People's Army or

13 the VRS or to members of these armies?

14 A. Are you asking about this corpus of paper, or this particular

15 document?

16 Q. No, this concerns all the documents in the binders.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The two volumes, in other words. Two volumes.

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Can you tell us in which documents you found a reference to the

21 Yugoslav People's Army or the army of Republika Srpska? Or if you like, I

22 could help you or refer to certain documents.

23 A. There are probably maybe a hundred references or more in these

24 documents to the JNA.

25 Q. But how many documents -- in how many documents was the JNA one of

Page 1326

1 the active participants in the creation of the documents or in the

2 cessation of the assemblies -- in the sessions of the assemblies?

3 A. I'm not certain what the total number would be. There are two in

4 which either the JNA or VRS plays a, I would say, prominent role.

5 Q. Would any of these documents be a record of the -- of May 12th,

6 1992, of the -- it is Prosecutor's Exhibit 50.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us for what reason the military officers attended

9 that meeting?

10 A. That was the meeting at which the decision was passed to create

11 the VRS, the Bosnian Serb army.

12 Q. Would you agree that during that assembly, Mr. -- General Mladic

13 held a speech?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you agree that in his speech, page 41 --

16 A. [Previous translation continues]... Okay, I have page 41 of the

17 12 May meeting.

18 Q. Unfortunately, it is not a sentence, a paragraph, but several

19 pages. Would you agree in that speech, specifically at that page, you can

20 find several sentences where General Mladic took up positions where people

21 of different nationalities could remain within the framework of the Army

22 of the Republika Srpska?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Another document which reads -- first to the army of Republika

25 Srpska. It is Exhibit 63. It is an assembly of the Serb people's

Page 1327

1 assembly in Sanski Most.

2 A. From 1995, yes.

3 Q. We have a translation in English of a small portion of that

4 document, and the Croatian version has about 200 pages. Have you been

5 able to read the whole document in the Serbian language?

6 A. [Previous translation continues]...

7 Q. Could you conclude from the English extract that it was a meeting

8 where the misunderstandings between the political parties and the army had

9 been very pronounced?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: May I interrupt you for a moment. I have got an

11 urgent personal phone call, which I would like to attend to. I will

12 resume the sitting immediately after I finish this phone call. Thank

13 you.

14 --- Break taken at 11.30 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please, you may be seated. I'm sorry about

17 that, but I have a personal family problem back home today which I have to

18 attend to, and more or less I was expecting this call. And I might have

19 further calls in the course of this morning's hearing. So please bear

20 with me.

21 Please, Ms. Fauveau, carry on with your cross-examination.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Q. Well, as for the report, the last exhibit I referred to was

24 Prosecution Exhibit 52, which is a report of the assembly of Republika

25 Srpska of 1995.

Page 1328

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So you said that you were able to read only the excerpt translated

3 into English.

4 A. No, I read somewhat further than that but did not master the full

5 200 pages of the document yet.

6 Q. So you have analysed the document of 200 pages on the basis of a

7 few excerpts without having read the whole text?

8 A. I haven't analysed the document. I have cited excerpts from

9 remarks by Dr. Karadzic, which I believe occurred toward the end of the

10 session.

11 Q. Can you confirm that during that session of the Republika Srpska

12 assembly, there were declarations that reflected problems between the

13 political and military authorities?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. These problems existed since 1992 until 1995?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can I ask you to turn to Prosecution Exhibit 19? I think it is up

18 to the English text.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter corrects herself: Seven.

20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Document dated September 13, 1990. Exhibit 19; the English 16.


23 A. Yes, I have that, Prosecution 19.

24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. During the examination, you spoke of an order of the JNA of 1990,

Page 1329

1 according to which the arms of the TO were placed under the control of the

2 JNA?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You referred to Exhibit 19, Prosecution Exhibit 19.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us who the author of this document is? I speak of an

7 institution and not of an individual that signed the document.

8 A. It's -- it's from the -- the document was originated by the TO

9 organisation of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. It's not a JNA, document, is it?

11 A. No. It refers to the JNA order in the first paragraph.

12 Q. Have you seen this document, the document which this exhibit

13 refers to in its first paragraph?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Mr. Donia, have you seen the original version of this document of

16 Exhibit 19B in the Serbo-Croatian language?

17 A. I -- yes.

18 Q. In the researches you have carried out in Bosnia before the war

19 for your book, I suppose you have seen many official Yugoslav documents,

20 originals.

21 A. Some.

22 Q. Can you tell us whether the official Yugoslav documents carry a

23 signature and a stamp?

24 A. In most situations they do, yes.

25 Q. Can you look at the last page of this exhibit in the

Page 1330

1 Serbo-Croatian language, and can you tell us whether this exhibit has a

2 stamp and a signature?

3 A. I cannot, no.

4 Q. You said that at the end of 1991, Milosevic ordered the JNA to

5 recruit members of the Bosniak nationality in Bosnia.

6 A. I indicated that the -- that Borislav Jovic, in his diary, reports

7 that he and Milosevic together rang up the Federal Secretary of Defence,

8 Veljko Kadijevic and that Milosevic directed that he move those JNA troops

9 who were not native Bosnians or citizens of Bosnia to other republics and

10 that those who were citizens of Bosnia serving in the JNA in other

11 republics be transferred to Bosnia.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: May I interrupt you for a moment? I'd like to ask

13 the -- Mr. Cayley whether this document, document P19A and B, is being

14 contested by the Defence, because I have the vague impression that because

15 of the two stamps that there are on the first page of the Serbo-Croat

16 version this was not objected to.

17 MR. CAYLEY: The -- from memory, Your Honour, to be frank with

18 you, I don't know, but I'm told it was a disputed document originally.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Right.

20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, it is

21 an objected-to document because the stamp on the first page doesn't prove

22 anything, and there is not a stamp on the signature at the last page.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go ahead.

24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Let us suppose that the order of Milosevic had taken place. All

Page 1331

1 citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina, regardless of their nationality, were

2 transferred to units of the JNA in Bosnia. Muslims, Croats, Yugoslavs,

3 and others had been transferred along with the Serbs in Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina.

5 In your report, you speak of the functions of the JNA. Can you

6 tell us whether the JNA, in addition to defending the country against

7 external enemy, also had the tasks of defending the territorial integrity

8 of the country of Yugoslavia?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. During your examination, you said that the JNA had sided with the

11 Serbs, taking -- taken part with the Serbs in Croatia during the war between the

12 Serbs and Croats in Croatia.

13 A. I believe my testimony was that it had sided with the Serbs in

14 Croatia during the war in Croatia, yes.

15 Q. Would you agree that the declaration of independence of Croatia

16 constituted an attack against the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia?

17 A. I'm not able to make that judgment.

18 Q. You said that the forces of the JNA in Bosnia was increased by the

19 withdrawal of the JNA from Croatia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What time did the JNA forces retreat from Croatia?

22 A. Early 1992.

23 Q. Did some of the JNA forces remain in Croatia until June 1992?

24 A. Small numbers of JNA troops remained in Croatia until that time,

25 yes.

Page 1332

1 Q. Did you know that a part of the heavy armaments of the JNA

2 remained in Croatia?

3 A. Yes, I believe that was part of the agreement of January 2 ending

4 the war in Croatia.

5 Q. I'm not talking about the agreement; I'm talking about the heavy

6 weapons that the Croatian forces seized in September and October 1991.

7 A. I take it your question, then, is, Was I aware that some of the

8 heavy weaponry of the JNA was seized by Croatian forces and retained in

9 Croatia? Yes.

10 Q. You've said that the Yugoslav army, that is the JNA, became Serb

11 due to the fact that a large number of officers of different

12 nationalities, Muslims, Croats, Macedonians, left the army?

13 A. This was a process that -- of which that was one part. It became

14 increasingly Serb over time, first in Croatia, and then somewhat later in

15 Bosnia; that is, in 1992, because of the withdrawal of non-Serbs from that

16 force and the increasing pro-Serb orientation in that force in each place

17 respectively, in Croatia and then Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. Would you agree that with the secession of republics, Slovenia and

19 Croatia, the officers of those nationalities joined their national armies?

20 A. Most did, yes.

21 Q. Would you agree that with the formation of the army of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Muslims officers joined the ranks of that army?

23 A. That was -- are you speaking of 15 April 1992?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Yes, I would. And again, that's a process that began before that

Page 1333

1 time and accelerated certainly with the formation of the unified command

2 on April 15.

3 Q. You spoke yesterday of Sefer Halilovic, who became commander of

4 the BH army.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know that Sefer Halilovic was a JNA officer?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Would you agree that Sefer Halilovic is a Muslim?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you agree that Sefer Halilovic was not a Bosnian?

11 A. I'm sorry, I don't follow the question. Was he a resident or

12 citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Is that the question? Yes.

13 Q. You know that Sefer Halilovic was born in Sandzak, in the republic

14 of Serbia?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you agree that the Serb army in Bosnia was principally

17 composed of Serbs born in Bosnia?

18 A. At what time?

19 Q. 1992.

20 A. Certainly by April of 1992, that would be the case, yes.

21 Q. Would you agree that these Serbs of Bosnia, members of the Bosnian

22 Serb army, were often defending their native towns?

23 A. Hard to say how -- whether that would be often the case. I would

24 simply say they were stationed there and were active in the military

25 activities of the army, the JNA; and after May 12th, the VRS.

Page 1334

1 Q. Yes, but in any event, these people were citizens of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

3 A. The vast majority of them were, yes.

4 Q. During your examination-in-chief, you referred to Prosecutor's

5 Exhibit P11, which is an extract from the minutes of the second session of

6 the assembly of the community of municipalities of Bosanska Krajina held

7 on the 14th of May, 1991.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This document refers to a declaration of the minister of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mahmut Cehajic, who described the Serb people as

11 genocidal. This is Item 8 of the decision. It is discussed on the last

12 page in the last paragraph. Minister Mahmut Cehajic.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Have you seen the speech of Mr. Cehajic?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you carry out investigations to try and trace it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You said that you were not aware of the competences of the crisis

19 staff?

20 A. I think I said I could not comment on the competence of the

21 regional crisis staffs.

22 Q. But you could tell us what were the competences of crisis staffs?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How, then, can you provide any document -- can you attribute real

25 significance to any document of a crisis staff? How can you assess it?

Page 1335

1 A. I, as an historian looking at these things, look at their

2 consequences, their implementation, their impact on events. I am not

3 qualified to give a legal interpretation of those competencies or

4 authorisation as contained either in constitution or statute.

5 Q. In history, does an official document have an equal value to an

6 unofficial document?

7 A. It can have, and in fact, many unofficial documents are almost

8 worthless because they are very skeletal in nature and give very little

9 real information. I would say that each document has to be assessed

10 individually in terms of its content and context and origin to make that

11 assessment.

12 Q. I have one more question for you. On page 70 of your report, you

13 speak of a Serb sniper who shot at demonstrators on the 6th of April and

14 that that marked -- that some people believe that incident marks the

15 beginning of the war.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know the identity of the person who fired the shot?

18 A. No.

19 Q. How do you know that it was a Serb?

20 A. The situation on that -- on that day was there was a demonstration

21 of members of all nationalities in front of the national assembly building

22 in downtown Sarajevo, several thousand people, and at a point in time the

23 Holiday Inn, which was then functioning as the headquarters of the SDS,

24 came under fire from Serbian paramilitaries on the roof. So I would

25 probably want to say that this was a member of a Serbian military force.

Page 1336












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1337

1 And as to his nationality, I couldn't give you a definitive statement.

2 Q. How can you know that a Muslim or a Croat did not infiltrate

3 himself into the Serb paramilitary forces?

4 A. I can't. And furthermore, there were at this time in all these

5 formations small numbers of people who were not from the nationality or

6 the party that controlled it.

7 Q. In any event, you allow for the possibility that it may not have

8 been a Serb?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your

11 Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Fauveau.

13 It's not over for you yet, Dr. Donia, because I understand

14 Mr. Cayley has a few more questions for you.

15 THE WITNESS: I'm having fun, Your Honour, so ...

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So re-examination by Mr. Cayley. Do you anticipate

17 to finish within the next half hour, Mr. Cayley?

18 MR. CAYLEY: I may, Mr. President. I may go on a bit longer, but

19 I will try and wrap this up as rapidly as I can.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I have been taking the attitude, as you may have

21 noticed, of interfering as little as possible because I think that would

22 bring us to an end quicker, to tell you the truth. So take that message

23 from me. I will not be interrupting you, but please try to be as concise

24 and as direct as you can. Thank you.

25 MR. CAYLEY: I will, Mr. President. Thank you.

Page 1338

1 Re-examined by Mr. Cayley:

2 Q. Dr. Donia, just to orientate you, what I want to do, first of all

3 I want to revisit some of the areas of cross-examination from yesterday

4 and today, and I will refer to the transcript and refresh your memory.

5 I'll summarise what was said to save time so I don't have to read the

6 transcript out, but I will mention the page number to help my learned

7 colleagues opposite.

8 I then want to, lastly, speak about this book by Professor Burg

9 and Professor Shoup.

10 A. Excuse me. Professor Shoup.

11 Q. Yes. Professor Shoup.

12 A. If he's listening.

13 Q. Professor Shoup. Dr. Donia, yesterday, Mr. Ackerman raised a

14 point with you where he put to you that the reappearance of Ustasha

15 symbols in the Krajina led to fright and worry amongst people. Do you

16 recall that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then he put to you a question, and this is at page 1205 of the

19 draft transcript:

20 Q. In that context, it would not be difficult to

21 understand why people might want to arm themselves

22 for protection, if for no other reason."

23 And your answer to that question was:

24 A. I don't share that conclusion, no.

25 Why do you not share that conclusion?

Page 1339

1 A. Well, I don't share the conclusion because at this time, that is

2 1990, early 1991, this was a hypothetical historical -- historically

3 recollected threat from the -- from 45 years beforehand, and the

4 difference between that and an actual armed threat is very great. And so

5 the taking up of arms at this point in time would have been more an act

6 of -- indication of probable use or intent to possibly use them in

7 aggressive purposes rather than defence.

8 Q. And who at the time was taking up arms for aggressive purposes

9 rather than defence, Dr. Donia, in the Krajina region?

10 A. Well, what period of time are we --

11 Q. The end of 1991, the beginning of 1992. So the summer of 1991

12 through to the beginning of 1992.

13 A. Well, as I've indicated, there was -- each of the three national

14 parties were taking up arms. The increasing flow of arms and link with

15 the JNA was being done by SDS organs and related Bosnian Serb

16 organisations.

17 Q. If we can move ahead, you were asked - in fact, there was a

18 lengthy discussion at one point between you and Mr. Ackerman - about the

19 change in the electoral legislation in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the passing

20 of legislation which enabled multiparty elections but the prohibition of

21 parties formed on national grounds, and then mention was made of the fact

22 that the constitutional court overturned that condition within the

23 electoral legislation to allow parties to be formed on national grounds.

24 And Dr. Trnka was identified as the Muslim president of the constitutional

25 court at the time. And I sensed an impression was left whereby there was

Page 1340

1 some kind of suggestion that there was a Muslim conspiracy to rig the

2 election laws to allow the formation of nationalist parties.

3 Are you aware of any evidence whatsoever to suggest that there was

4 some form of Muslim agreement to the exclusion of the other nationalities

5 in Bosnia to form parties on a national basis?

6 A. No. The constitutional court decision, which I can't speak to its

7 validity, but it is a document that, in fact, recognises that there was a

8 danger to formation of political parties along national and religious

9 lines. But the decision reads that these dangers were something that had

10 to be lived with in a democratic society, and that banning parties based

11 on nationality or religion of any type was not consistent either with a

12 constitution or with the rights of the citizens to associate in political

13 groups.

14 Q. Dr. Donia, when the constitutional court made that decision, were

15 you aware of whether or not there were any Serb judges, Bosnian Serb

16 judges, sitting on that court?

17 A. I don't know the composition of the court at that time, no.

18 Q. Mr. Ackerman asked you a number of questions about the referendum,

19 and here I'm referring to the referendum that was held throughout Bosnia

20 on the question of independence. And you stated, in effect, at page 1256

21 of the transcript, that you were unaware of any evidence to show that the

22 SDS actively prevented that referendum from taking place. Do you recall

23 that evidence?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you turn to page 69 of your report.

Page 1341

1 A. I have that.

2 Q. Can I refer you to the bottom of the page.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if you would slowly read out that passage.

5 A. "The SDS urged Serbs to boycott the independence referendum

6 scheduled for 29 February and 1 March. Leaders of the ARK, echoing the

7 official SDS view, declared the referendum to be illegal. They instructed

8 officials of ARK-member municipalities that they were under no obligation

9 to secure voting locations, nor to organise the voting."

10 Q. So whilst the SDS did not prevent the referendum from taking

11 place, it is true to say that they effectively hijacked it, isn't it?

12 A. Well, they relieved the local organs of any responsibility to

13 provide for the voting to take place. And I don't know that I would use

14 the word "hijack," but it was a clear effort to make the voting as minimal

15 as possible and to urge that Serbs not participate in any way within -- in

16 the process of the referendum.

17 Q. I want to very briefly address you on Prosecutor's Exhibit 25.

18 It's not absolutely essential that you have it in front of you, but it may

19 help.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

21 MR. CAYLEY: That's correct, Your Honour.

22 A. I have it, Mr. Cayley.

23 Q. Now, Dr. Donia, in your cross-examination, you acknowledged that

24 there was discussion and dissension within the SDS in certain quarters

25 regarding these instructions.

Page 1342

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In terms of practical application of these instructions in Serb

3 municipalities in the Krajina, by the end of 1992, from what you know, had

4 these instructions been implemented in any of those municipalities?

5 A. Yes, they had. They had been implemented in nearly all that I

6 know of and have looked at. They were implemented in those municipalities

7 in the ARK by certainly the summer of 1992.

8 Q. Dr. Donia, you were asked by Mr. Ackerman about the minutes of the

9 ARK assembly that had been provided to you, and you made it quite clear

10 those that had not been provided to you or those that the Prosecutor

11 simply does not possess. But I would, just for the purposes of accuracy

12 in the record, if you could go to footnote 213 in your report which is on

13 page 66.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At footnote 213, can you tell me which session of the ARK Assembly

16 is referred to?

17 A. The thirteenth session.

18 Q. So you were provided with the minutes of the thirteenth session

19 and you in fact referred to them in your report?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could assist me and put that map on

22 an easel.

23 Q. Dr. Donia, I think you will recall in your evidence yesterday that

24 Mr. Ackerman addressed you about the Muslim authorities in Gorazde and

25 Konjic dismissing Serbs. Now, the first question I have for you is do

Page 1343

1 Gorazde and Konjic constitute part of the Krajina region of Bosnia?

2 A. No, they're both far from it.

3 Q. If you could just indicate to the Judges where those two

4 municipalities are so there's absolutely no confusion about the locations

5 of these places in relation to the geography that is of interest to this

6 trial.

7 A. Gorazde -- may I be heard?

8 Q. If you could.

9 A. Gorazde is here, east of Sarajevo. Konjic is down here, about

10 halfway between Mostar and Sarajevo. I guess the nearest that -- well,

11 ARK municipalities are considerably further to the north-west.

12 Q. Could you just briefly indicate where the Krajina is? I know

13 we've done this already, but just for --

14 A. In its broad definition, it would be this north-western third or

15 so of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Q. In your evidence yesterday, it was suggested by inference - and

17 now I'm talking about the Lisbon agreements brokered by Cutilheiro - it

18 was suggested that Izetbegovic essentially prevented those agreements from

19 taking place by his actions. Do you recall that part of your evidence?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did both of those failed agreements involve cantonisation of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina on ethnic lines?

23 A. Yes, they did.

24 Q. Did Izetbegovic at that time favour the division of Bosnia along

25 ethnic lines?

Page 1344

1 A. No. He was opposed to it.

2 Q. Now, if we can briefly move to the respective strengths of Serb

3 forces on the one hand and Muslim and Croat forces on the other, and I'll

4 just remind you of your testimony here. It's at page 1258 of the draft

5 transcript. Forces were referred to by Mr. Ackerman in both Central

6 Bosnia and up in Doboj, and effectively it was put to you that Muslim

7 forces in Doboj were strong enough to hold off Serbian forces.

8 Now, you may not know the answer to this question. If you don't,

9 simply say you don't know. Were you aware, Dr. Donia, that the town of

10 Doboj fell in a day to Serbian forces on the 3rd of May of 1992? Are you

11 aware of that fact?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Dr. Donia, that area of Doboj, and, in fact, Mr. Ackerman

14 mentioned a speech by Mr. Krajisnik mentioning the Semberija area, that

15 that was of critical importance to the Serbs, the Posavina corridor, in

16 linking areas in northern Bosnia to Serbia proper. Are you aware of the

17 significance of that area of Bosnia for that reason?

18 A. Yes. And, in fact, the -- it was one of the six strategic goals

19 outlined on 12 May, the establishment of a corridor.

20 Q. You're running ahead of me, Dr. Donia. We'll get there.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Dr. Donia, are you aware that by the end of June, by and large the

23 Serbian army had taken control of the Posavina corridor?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, you've already stated that one of the strategic objectives of

Page 1345

1 the Serbs was the securing of that corridor between Serbian areas in

2 Northern Bosnia and Serbia proper. And if I can refer you now to

3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 50. Page 13 of the minutes of the sixteenth session

4 of the Assembly of the Serbian people held in Banja Luka on the 12th of

5 May. At the bottom of page 13, it states:

6 [French translation on English channel]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think there may be a confusion here in the

8 interpretation. I think on Channel 4 now we are receiving interpretation

9 in French, which I can live with, but it's not in English as I had

10 expected. I know that Ms. Fauveau had nothing to do with it.

11 When you think that this fault is rectified, tell me so that we

12 can proceed. I can easily ask you to proceed without having to use it,

13 but I don't know whether we are procedurally correct if there is no

14 interpretation in English.

15 Can we proceed? Okay, so proceed.


17 Q. So, Dr. Donia, the second strategic goal at page 13, the corridor

18 between Semberija and Krajina described by Krajisnik as "of the utmost

19 importance to the Serbian people because it integrates the Serbian lands,"

20 and so on. I won't read it out.

21 A. I believe the speaker here is Dr. Karadzic, not Mr. Krajisnik.

22 Q. You're quite right. It starts with Krajisnik and then goes on to

23 Karadzic. So the military action that Mr. Ackerman was addressing to you

24 in terms of the taking of Doboj, the taking of the Posavina Corridor, and

25 the success of that action is actually the fulfilment of this second

Page 1346

1 strategic goal referred to by Karadzic in these minutes, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. There was a point in your cross-examination yesterday where you

4 were asked about whether or not non-Serb dominated municipalities were

5 asked to join the ZOBK, ARK, and whether there was an initiative on the

6 part of the SDS to do this. And I would like to refer you to page 49 of

7 your report. And you'll find that there is the paragraph that starts

8 "Under the table..." You know what it says; it's your report.

9 But if you could essentially summarise the findings in that part

10 of your report on this particular point that I'm addressing you on now.

11 A. The effort to recruit other municipalities to the ZOBK continued

12 for some months after it was formed. Among other places, in the official

13 SDS newspaper, Javnost, which issued an invitation and recommendation to

14 municipalities with largely Muslim populations. And then I noted that

15 except for very few Serbian splinter parties, there were no takers among

16 the other political groups to join the ARK -- or to join the ZOBK at this

17 time.

18 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have another about sort of five to

19 ten minutes of re-examination. I don't know whether you wish me to carry

20 on or wish me to pause at this point.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I would like to consult the interpretation

22 room, see whether it would be...

23 Okay. So you can go ahead for the next five, ten minutes, not

24 more than that. Then we'll break.

25 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you.

Page 1347

1 MR. ACKERMAN: May I inquire: In some jurisdictions, I would be

2 permitted a re-cross. I don't know how we're going to handle that.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Listen, if you ask for it, I will grant it. Because

4 I think once there is a re-examination, I would concede that. But I would

5 ask you to inform the Chamber beforehand what questions you want to put,

6 see whether they are relevant or not. If it is something which is

7 substantially important, I will let you. If it's not, I will not.

8 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I mean, if I can address you on this,

9 this has arisen on other cases before. Mr. Ackerman has had a day and a

10 half to cross-examine this witness. I may then wish to come in after him,

11 if something is raised. I mean, it will go on forever.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No. No. You won't go forever because that will be

13 the end. He will only be allowed to put any further questions that have

14 arisen out of your re-examination, in other words, any fact that has

15 emerged as a result of your re-examination, and that's it. It will not be

16 a recommencement of the interrogation. But if something comes out of the

17 re-examination, yes, I will allow.

18 MR. CAYLEY: I will then have an opportunity to do a re-redirect.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, if there is something. But then I will

20 definitely put an end to it. So go ahead.


22 Q. Dr. Donia, this book, "The War in Bosnia-Herzegovina" by

23 Professors Burg and Shoup, now, you were referred to this book on nine

24 different occasions. You probably didn't count them, but you do recall

25 being referred to this publication?

Page 1348

1 A. Very well.

2 Q. And you will recall that Mr. Ackerman stated -- counsel for

3 Radoslav Brdjanin stated that this book is an authoritative source. Do

4 you recall him stating that?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the record does not reflect that.

7 What I said was, "Is it an authoritative work?" I asked him.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You asked the question, and he told you that he

9 doesn't consider it.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Right.



13 Q. I think you agreed with Mr. Ackerman that this was a work by two

14 well-distinguished American scholars with an impressive work record in

15 regard to the issues in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 MR. CAYLEY: If I could hand out an exhibit, please, Your

18 Honours. This is an extract from chapter 4 which Mr. Ackerman referred

19 to. He didn't refer to this section of chapter 4. I'm going to refer to

20 it now because I think it's important that the Court sees the other

21 conclusions that these authors reached.

22 I have incorporated, Your Honours, as much of the remainder of

23 this chapter as possible, and I will explain to you why after I finish my

24 re-examination.

25 Q. Do you have those papers in front of you?

Page 1349

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 MR. CAYLEY: Now, I don't intend, Your Honours, to read all of

3 these pages.

4 Do the interpreters have a copy of this? Yes. They do, yes.

5 Q. Do you see, starting in the second paragraph of this document,

6 where it says: "A massive ..."?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let me read some of this to the Court:

9 "A massive campaign of ethnic cleansing was initiated by the

10 Bosnian Serbs in April, May, and June 1992 in Eastern Bosnia, parts of

11 Eastern Herzegovina, the Sava River Valley, Bosanska Krajina, and the

12 suburbs of Sarajevo."

13 And the events with which this case is concerned, Dr. Donia, are

14 the events which took place in the Bosanska Krajina, aren't they?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Carrying on:

17 "These operations were carried out by local militia and SDS

18 activists following the occupation of predominantly Muslim cities by

19 paramilitary forces. As we noted earlier, the paramilitary troops were

20 aided by JNA units from Serbia. The Serb campaign of ethnic cleansing

21 established a pattern that was to be followed on other occasions and by

22 other groups throughout the war but nowhere else on such a large scale.

23 Muslim women and children were usually forced across the battle lines into

24 Bosnian territory or transported out of Bosnia to the Sandzak and even on

25 occasion to Macedonia. Most women and children were spared incarceration

Page 1350

1 and death but were totally at the mercy of their tormenters. As we noted

2 above, many women became the victims of rape."

3 Now, I'm not going to read all of this in. I'm going to select

4 some passages. Another sentence begins:

5 "Men and boys were interned and many were killed outright either

6 upon capture or during incarceration in the worst of the Serb detention

7 camps. In a practice reminiscent of World War II, local political Muslim

8 leaders, teachers, and professionals were selected and executed by the

9 Serbs."

10 And you can see, Dr. Donia, and so it carries on explaining how

11 the intelligentsia were essentially executed.

12 Lastly from this document, on the second page, the last sentence

13 of the first but incomplete paragraph on that page:

14 "The Serbs, furthermore, were guilty of the complete eradication

15 of Muslim cultural monuments, mosques, libraries, and the like in

16 territory under their control. The apparent scorched-earth approach of

17 the Serbs to Muslim cultural and religious structures suggests either a

18 total lack of control by Serb leaders over extremists or an obsession with

19 removing all signs of Muslim presence."

20 Dr. Donia, I will not ask you whether you agree or disagree with

21 professors Burg and Shoup, but I will put it in the manner that

22 Mr. Ackerman put it in some of their statements yesterday. Do you have

23 any quarrel with Burg and Shoup in respect of these conclusions that I've

24 just read out to you?

25 A. No.

Page 1351

1 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have photocopied a number of pages

2 which don't actually relate to the matter which I've just addressed, and

3 the reason for that is that these pages do speak about Muslims cleansing

4 Croats, Croats cleansing Muslims, Serbs --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how we would expected you to do it, yes.

6 MR. CAYLEY: And I think it's only fair that you receive a full

7 picture of what these authors were speaking of when they wrote this book.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. We would have preferred -- we would

9 have preferred at this point in time to have the book, too, but anyway,

10 have you finished with your --

11 MR. CAYLEY: I've finished my re-examination, Mr. President. The

12 book is in fact in the library here at the Tribunal.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We will definitely consult it.

14 MR. CAYLEY: And I will put back so that you may use it.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Have you given your exhibit a number?

16 MR. CAYLEY: The report of Dr. Donia first, which is Prosecutor's

17 Exhibit 53, and I think that this document will have to -- it is actually

18 part of DB1. It's a Defence Exhibit, but I don't know if Mr. Ackerman

19 will want it exhibited in his case. We can call it Prosecutor's

20 Exhibit 53.1, if you wish.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I can live with that. Yes.

22 Now, very briefly, what -- you mentioned that you would like,

23 before you even -- before Mr. Cayley had even started his re-examination,

24 that you may have to -- some questions to put. Do you have questions that

25 you would like to put?

Page 1352

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have two things. If the Chamber

2 would like the book, I would be delighted to provide three copies, one for

3 each of you. If you ask me to do that, I will do it without hesitation.

4 The second --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The Chamber wouldn't accept anything like that. The

6 Chamber will procure its own.

7 Yes, second thing.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: What I'm thinking about is making the entire book

9 an exhibit, not a gift. A gift would not be appropriate.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. I understand. In that case, you would

11 exhibit one total -- one copy and that's it but as an exhibit.

12 Your second point?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I have one question that I would like to ask. It

14 has to do with the events in the corridor. Very brief.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's hear it.

16 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman:

17 Q. Dr. Donia, before -- before things began to fall apart in

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina and war actually broke out, there was no hindrance that

19 would prevent people from the Krajina from driving over to Serbia through

20 the corridor if they wanted to, was there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And the strategic importance of that corridor was not just

23 something that the people in the Krajina were aware of, it was something

24 that the Croatian and Muslim forces were aware of, and that was why it was

25 important to them to try to capture it as quickly as possible to shut off

Page 1353

1 the connection between Krajina and Serbia?

2 A. I would agree that that interest was there, but as events evolved,

3 that was not really the way that the military forces behaved in terms of

4 the corridor.

5 Q. Are you aware that during the time the Croatian and Muslim forces

6 had closed the corridor so there could not be any travel and communication

7 back and forth, that a number of babies died in the Banja Luka hospital

8 because oxygen could not be brought from Serbia?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, here I will stop you because this

10 question you could have put before.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And that's the way it will go.

13 I suppose you don't have questions yourself, Ms. Fauveau.

14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President,

15 Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

17 MR. CAYLEY: I don't have any questions, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so now. That's what I meant. So that you

19 will know what the procedure is, I will be making distinctions between

20 witnesses and witnesses. This is a particular witness. He is an expert

21 witness. And at least my vision of the right of cross-examination would

22 extend to further questioning following re-examination if new facts

23 emerge. In other words, this Chamber will not preclude the Defence or the

24 Prosecution from making further questions. But they have to be

25 justified. This is -- and don't expect this further questioning to last

Page 1354

1 more than a minute or two.

2 Yes, Mr. Cayley.

3 MR. CAYLEY: Could I just apply for admission into evidence of

4 Prosecutor's Exhibit Number 53, being the report of Dr. Donia, together

5 with 53.1, which is the further extract from the Burg and Shoup

6 publication.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Permission granted.

8 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So I ask you to be indulgent with us and instead of

10 having the usual -- how much time do you need, Ms. Korner, after we

11 reconvene? Do you need the full hour?

12 MS. KORNER: The video takes something in the region of

13 25 minutes. But I should be stopping at various points so the

14 investigator can point out the relevant areas. In addition to that, I

15 want to deal with two matters with him that were raised by Mr. Ackerman

16 during the course of cross-examination of Dr. Donia.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there any objection from anyone that we extend

18 our hearing from quarter to 2.00 until 2.00? Interpreters?

19 [Microphone not activated]

20 So we will reconvene at 5 minutes past the hour.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.45 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I neglected to make a formal offer of

25 DB1 into evidence, and I now do so.

Page 1355

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

2 Yes, Ms. Korner.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Dr. Donia has not been formally released

4 by Your Honours.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. The reason for that is I wanted to discuss

6 with my other two colleagues whether there were any questions. I

7 personally didn't have any questions. Also, he is an expert witness, and

8 I would rather prefer not to go into a direct questioning exercise with

9 him. My two colleagues also don't have any questions, so he can be

10 released now.

11 [The witness withdraws]

12 MS. KORNER: I'm very grateful, and the message will be passed to

13 him.

14 Your Honour, in that case, may I recall Mr. Inayat.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You may. Please call in Mr. Inayat. Everything is

16 ready for the film, for the video recording?

17 MS. KORNER: I understand so. I see Mr. Ackerman is up again.


19 MR. ACKERMAN: I've offered Exhibit DB1 but the record doesn't

20 show whether it has been admitted as an exhibit or not.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I told you. Yes, of course.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry. Thank you.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, whilst Mr. Inayat is coming in, can I

24 explain that we have given to Defence counsel and to Your Honours copies

25 of his annotated schedule of exhibits. Your Honours will see what he has

Page 1356












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1357

1 done. This relates to the Banja Luka set of documents, which Your Honours

2 will get back at the end of the day. We have prenumbered those exhibits

3 so that we don't have to go through that rather mind-numbing exercise we

4 did last time. Unfortunately, in doing so, we forgot that some of the

5 exhibits from there had been placed into Dr. Donia's binders, so what we

6 are doing is just leaving the sequence blank and inserting the numbers

7 those documents already have.

8 May I say again, that if required, on Monday, Mr. Inayat, before

9 the first witness, can give -- if there's to be any objection to the

10 admission of those exhibits, can give further evidence.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

12 Mr. Inayat, you will now be asked to make the usual solemn

13 declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Please sit down.


18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before we have the film shown, can I

19 deal with two matters that arose from cross-examination of Dr. Donia by

20 Mr. Ackerman? He was asked about seeing minutes from the ARK Crisis Staff

21 meetings.

22 Examined by Ms. Korner:

23 Q. Mr. Inayat, minutes of the ARK Crisis Staff meetings, in other

24 words, records of what was said and who said it, is the Office of the

25 Prosecutor in possession of any such minutes?

Page 1358

1 A. 1998, when we searched the Municipal Assembly building in Banja

2 Luka, that was one of the things that we were trying to look for, and we

3 even asked the local officials who were conducting the tour with us that

4 if they could please take us to where this documentation would be

5 available. We were told in 1992, at the end of 1992 when ARK was

6 disbanded, the officials who were handling that material, they took it

7 with them.

8 Q. Since the search took place in Banja Luka, has the Office of the

9 Prosecutor made numbers of attempts through information and other methods

10 to find those minutes?

11 A. I think an extensive effort has been made, I would imagine from

12 summer of 1999, that we have been trying to locate this material, even

13 requesting RS officials and sometimes even our own sources.

14 Q. In November of last year, was a formal request made through the

15 liaison officer of the Republika Srpska to provide the Office of the

16 Prosecutor with the minutes relating to the ARK Crisis Staff and all the

17 municipal Crisis Staffs?

18 A. That is correct. The request was made on 5th of November, 2001.

19 Q. And as yet, has there been any response to that request?

20 A. So far there's been none.

21 Q. Thank you. The second matter I want to deal with is this:

22 Mr. Cayley dealt with part of it in cross-examination of Dr. Donia. He

23 was asked whether he had been shown the minutes of the -- he was dealing

24 with the ARK Assembly, not the Crisis Staff, the first, third, fourth,

25 fifth, eighth, tenth, twelfth, thirteenth, sixteenth, and seventeenth

Page 1359

1 sessions, and he replied that he had not.

2 Now, have researches been done to establish which sets of minutes

3 the Office of the Prosecutor is actually in possession of?

4 A. I was given this information last evening, and I have to point out

5 that so far I have not been able to establish whether we have these or

6 not, although I have tried to look at records. But I can assure you that

7 by Monday morning, you can have my extensive answer on this point.

8 MS. KORNER: In that case, Your Honour, I'll leave that matter.

9 Then, Your Honour, before I ask for the video to be played, can I

10 hand to Your Honours copies -- Your Honours may have it already, but it's

11 a full map of the ARK area, and it will make it easier to follow. And it

12 may help -- and there's one for the Registry if they require it -- if Your

13 Honours also have the indictment available to you because I shall be

14 pointing out various parts.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, do you have questions arising or

16 following what -- following the questions that have been put by Ms. Korner

17 to the witness?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have -- is there a reaction on your part?

20 No.

21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President and Your

22 Honours.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So we also need the indictment.


25 Q. Mr. Inayat, in July of --

Page 1360

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.


3 Q. Mr. Inayat, in July of last year, using a helicopter, did you

4 personally film part of the area that is covered by this case?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Can you give us the exact date?

7 A. I believe it was 22nd of July when we took the helicopter flight,

8 and I believe it was 27th of July, that is, five days after the first

9 helicopter flight we went to Manjaca detention camp.

10 Q. Yes. If we can ask for the video to be played. And, Mr. Inayat,

11 if you can ask for it to be paused where there's some matter you want to

12 deal with.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say that although Mr. Inayat will

14 be pointing out allegations that are made, can I put it that way, he will

15 be pointing out scenes where the Prosecution alleges that there were

16 killings clearly as a matter of proof, but rather than saying each

17 time "alleged," if one can take it as read that's what he would say.

18 A. And before the video is played, Ms. Korner, would you want me to

19 show on the ELMO the route the helicopter took?


21 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Inayat. That would probably be quite

22 helpful. If it could be placed on the ELMO.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I would suggest, Mr. Inayat, is that while

24 you are showing us the route the helicopter took, you mark it on that same

25 document with a pen or whatever and that that document then will be

Page 1361

1 entered into the records of the case as an exhibit so that we can refer to

2 it later on as a specific.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. We'll just have to check, because

4 we've pre-numbered the Banja Luka exhibits, so we'll have to check what

5 the right exhibit will be.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We can find a solution for that. We can have it as

7 a Court exhibit, Chamber Exhibit C1. Okay?

8 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, first of all, I'll just use the

10 pointer to show the route that was taken by the helicopter, and then I

11 will use then this marker also to point out and to trace the line of the

12 helicopter route.

13 Your Honours, we on 22nd of July, 2001, we took off from the Banja

14 Luka area in an SFOR helicopter, and we started towards Prijedor, and we

15 started filming the area here which is Omarska village. This is where you

16 will see the first shots on the video.

17 From Omarska, Your Honours, we went to Trnopolje, which is this

18 village here north of this lake, this fishpond that you are looking at.

19 From Trnopolje, Your Honours, we went towards Kozarac using this route,

20 which is about five kilometres north of Trnopolje village.

21 Your Honours, after filming Kozarac, we flew north from Kozarac.

22 There's a road, asphalt metal road about 14 kilometres road to the north

23 where the Benkovac military barracks are located. So we filmed the

24 military barracks also.

25 From there, Your Honours, we flew west towards Prijedor city. And

Page 1362

1 here at this point just before entering Prijedor city is the Keraterm

2 ceramics factory, which was also used as a detention camp during the

3 summer months of 1992. And after filming Keraterm, we flew over Prijedor

4 town to show the government buildings, just one short --


6 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Inayat. Can I interrupt? We're going to go into

7 more detail in the video. If you can show the route without explaining.

8 A. Okay. Then I can mark with this. So we flew from Banja Luka.

9 Omarska, this is the first place. Then we went to Trnopolje, second

10 place; Kozarac, third place, Benkovac barracks, west Prijedor, Keraterm,

11 and then we flew west to film this Brdo region of villages, Muslim

12 villages on the west of Prijedor town.

13 From here we entered Sanski Most and filmed the Krings detention

14 camp and also Sanski Most town, and we also filmed Betonirka and some

15 places in Sanski Most. From here we went back to Prijedor. Of course we

16 didn't film until we got back to Prijedor. And we filmed Ljubija football

17 stadium here and then Brisevo, an overwhelmingly Catholic village located

18 south of Prijedor town in Prijedor municipality.

19 From here we again entered Sanski Most and filmed Tomina village,

20 which is -- I'm sorry, Tomina is here. And then we filmed the -- this

21 whole area of Vrhpolje and Rostovo villages.

22 From here we entered Biljani, Your Honours, which is here, and we

23 filmed this village of Biljani. After filming Biljani we headed east to

24 Prhovo which is here, Your Honours. And after filming Prhovo, we

25 entered - Your Honours, I'm sorry I should have gone this way - Kotor

Page 1363

1 Varos. And the first place we filmed in Kotor Varos, Your Honours, is

2 this overwhelmingly Serb village of Grabovica, and we'll show you a school

3 in Grabovica. And from here, Your Honours, we went to Vrcici, the Muslim

4 village here, Vrcici, from where we filmed this whole area. This is where

5 the village of Dabovci and Horvocani are located and also a distant view

6 of Cerkin Brdo and Hanifici. After filming this area, Your Honours, we

7 went to Kotor Varos town and we took footage of three or four places there

8 which we will show you as the video comes up. If you want, I can sign

9 this, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we have been given the number by

12 Ms. Gustin. It would be Prosecutor's Exhibit 446.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Will the Defence make a note of that,

14 please. Thank you.


16 Q. And just before we leave the map, Mr. Inayat, the second part of

17 the film is on Manjaca. Can you indicate to Their Honours where Manjaca

18 is.

19 A. Your Honours, Manjaca is a ground video, not an aerial footage but

20 a ground footage. It is located in this area south of Banja Luka, about I

21 would imagine 40 minutes' drive south of Banja Luka city.

22 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

23 If we could play the video then, please.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, this is Omarska detention camp located

Page 1364

1 at the former Omarska iron ore mines offices, administration building and

2 some other buildings.

3 If you could stop here just for a second, if you can pause here,

4 Your Honours, the big red building that you see is known as the hangar

5 building. And there's a building to the left -- the other red building

6 that we see at the left-hand corner, bottom left-hand corner, is the

7 administration building. Between the hangar building and the

8 administration building you will see a cemented area which was known as

9 the pista. And in just front of these two buildings was a white building

10 which was referred to as the white house. And you see a fourth building,

11 right top hand corner [sic] which was known as the red building.

12 During the months of May, June, July, and August, several

13 thousands detainees were detained in the hangar building, in the

14 administration building, and those who were considered the most dangerous

15 and extremist were detained in the white house and also on the pista. Let

16 me also just, before we start, also mention that approximately 37 female

17 detainees were also detained here who would work in the administration

18 building during the daytime, in the restaurant, which is the first half of

19 the administration building; and during night-time, detained in the

20 administration building second floor where the interrogations were held

21 during that time. All interrogations were held on the second floor of the

22 administration building.


24 Q. Right. If we can move on, then, please.

25 A. Your Honours, you will get a good view of the pista, the cemented

Page 1365

1 area I pointed out between the two buildings, red and the administration

2 building. The grassy plot that you see on the right-hand side of the

3 white house is where those who were beaten to death -- this is the

4 administration building. Those beaten to death, their bodies would be

5 thrown on the grassy plot, the right-hand side of the white house.

6 Your Honours, you will also see the open cast quarry, the mine

7 where iron ore was extracted.

8 This is the quarry, Your Honours.

9 And this, Your Honours, is the backside of the big hangar building

10 and the administration building. At the back of the administration

11 building is where all the buses would be stopped before prisoners who were

12 detained would be taken off the buses and put into these areas.

13 Your Honours, we are now moving west of Omarska in the direction

14 of Trnopolje village. In the distance, you can see the fish pond which I

15 also showed you on the map which is located south of the Trnopolje camp.

16 These two places are also connected through a rail line and a road, which

17 we see again. This is a fish pond, Your Honours, located just south of

18 Trnopolje village, maybe 200 metres. And this is a railway line running

19 parallel to the road.

20 Your Honours, at the centre of your screens now you are looking at

21 the white building which was the Trnopolje school, which was turned into a

22 detention area, which was also referred to by the Serbs as -- the Serb

23 authorities as the reception centre. This is where thousands of women --

24 Q. Mr. Inayat, I'm going to stop you again. I don't think we need to

25 go into too much detail because we have limited time.

Page 1366

1 A. Okay.

2 Q. If we can carry on.

3 A. The grassy area just behind the school is also where detainees

4 were kept. So this, Your Honours, is the Trnopolje detention area. It

5 comprised of a school and a community centre. And this is where also the

6 Red Cross had its headquarters. You will also see a railway line very

7 close to this area from where initially the detainees were deported out of

8 Prijedor.

9 The railway line will be now coming at the bottom of your

10 screens. This, Your Honours. This is the road coming from Omarska. And

11 the road in front of the school is now moving towards Kozara Putevi. I

12 think we can fast forward this for a few seconds here. Okay.

13 This is the Ukrainian orthodox church, and we are heading now in

14 the direction of Kozarac, which I said is about 5 kilometres. This,

15 Your Honours, is Kozarac town. And located very close to it is Kamicani

16 village. We are looking at Kamicani and this is the main Banja

17 Luka/Prijedor road. The old Banja Luka/Prijedor road is also running

18 parallel to the main road.

19 Q. Pause for a moment, please.

20 A. Okay.

21 MS. KORNER: Thank you. If Your Honours go to paragraph 38 of the

22 indictment, you will see alleged there are --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: A number of killings.

24 MS. KORNER: -- killings in Kozarac and in Kamicani.

25 Q. Yes, we would like to go on, please.

Page 1367

1 [Videotape played]

2 A. This, Your Honours, is the wood factory in Kozarac in the middle

3 of your screens, and the main road, Banja Luka/Prijedor road, just in

4 front of it. Trnopolje is on the side. This, Your Honours, is the

5 orthodox church located in Kozarac. And this is, Your Honours, Kozarac

6 looking north where the Benkovac barracks are located about 12 to 13

7 kilometres in the north. And the road in the centre of your screens is

8 the road taking us to the Benkovac barracks.

9 This, Your Honours, is the Benkovac barracks where a couple of

10 hundred people were detained starting end of May. Those who were trying

11 to flee the area, ambushed in the forest, and brought here. And detained

12 in the barracks that are to the left-hand side facing the forested area.

13 This location is still in the use of the VRS and the JNA seized it

14 in January of 1992.

15 From here, Your Honours, we'll be flying west towards Prijedor

16 city, and first we'll come to the Keraterm ceramics factory which you see

17 in the middle of your screens, the big building. This one is the Keraterm

18 ceramics factory used as a detention camp in May, June, July, and August.

19 There is a big factory to the right-hand side which you can see here. The

20 offices of Kozara Putevi are at the bottom of your screen. This is where

21 most interrogations were conducted of detainees who were detained in

22 Keraterm.

23 This is the front view of the detention camp, Your Honours, and

24 very soon we will see this metal door that you can see -- maybe we need to

25 stop if you want. This one here is room number 3, the metal door, a small

Page 1368

1 path leading towards it, is room number 3 that you'll hear about during

2 the course of this trial.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's listed in paragraph 41.

4 THE WITNESS: This, Your Honours.

5 MS. KORNER: It's the fifth item down.

6 THE WITNESS: This, Your Honours, is Prijedor town, southern part

7 of Prijedor town. This is a few kilometres west of Prijedor town, the

8 Brdo region. There are six villages located here vertically north to

9 south. This is the first modern village of the Brdo region called

10 Biscani.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that is listed at the bottom of

12 paragraph 38, three from the bottom. From the bottom.

13 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, this is still Biscani, and a view of

14 Agici hamlet in Biscani. From here, Your Honours, we will be flying

15 towards Rizvanovici. This here, Your Honours, is the second village in

16 the Brdo area. And very close to Rizvanovici is the village of Rakovcani

17 which we are looking at right now. This, Your Honours, is Rakovcani.

18 From here, we'll be going towards Hambarine, probably one of the

19 biggest villages in the Brdo region. This is Hambarine Polje, and this is

20 Hambarine centre. The big building that you see at the centre of your

21 screens is where the community centre was located, and they have rebuilt

22 it now. This is the village of Carakovo, Your Honours, located alongside

23 Sana River.

24 MS. KORNER: Both those villages are mentioned in paragraph 38,

25 Your Honour.

Page 1369

1 THE WITNESS: The community centre is now in the middle of your

2 screens, big building. Your Honours, now we are looking south towards

3 Prijedor town. And we show you a bridge called Zeger bridge. So this is,

4 Your Honours, Zeger bridge.

5 This is, Your Honours, in Sanski Most Krings detention camp,

6 formerly an iron works company. It is located 1.5 kilometres from the

7 centre of Sanski Most on the Sanski Most/Bosanska Krupa road, about 125

8 metres long, 30 metres wide hall. The white building that you see just in

9 front of this hall is the administration building.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, all these are listed in the paragraph

11 dealing with the camps. It's paragraph 42, page 21 of the indictment.

12 THE WITNESS: A view of Sanski Most football ground and sports

13 hall. This is all of Sanski Most, Your Honours, divided into two parts by

14 the river. This is the new mosque in Sanski Most, and this area is Mahala

15 and Muhici settlements right alongside the river.

16 The multistoried white building that you will see now, which you

17 are looking at the top of your screens, is the Hasan Kikic school

18 with the sports hall in the background. This again, Hasan Kikic school

19 with the orthodox church slightly to its right.

20 The next place we are going to see is, Your Honours, the Betonirka

21 camp, this one, which was the cement processing plant. And there are

22 three garages that I would like to show you, and I believe at a certain

23 point, I'll ask the audiovisual just to pause for a second.

24 If they can pause here. Your Honours, you might see a shed with

25 some vehicles parked under it, and just behind the shed you will see three

Page 1370

1 garages with red coloured doors. These are the three garages of Betonirka

2 plant that I wanted to show you.

3 That's fine, you can continue now.

4 Your Honours, there is a multistoried white building to the left

5 of your screens, with a silver roof. This is a police station. And just

6 behind it is the remand centre facing the football ground, this area.

7 Your Honours, from here we will be going to Ljubija in Prijedor,

8 south of Prijedor. This is the football ground in Ljubija. This is the

9 Ljubija Sanski Most road, and we have exhumed a couple of mass graves here

10 in 1999 and 2001.

11 Your Honours, this is the village Brisevo, southern-most part of

12 Prijedor, overwhelmingly Croat village. All this is Brisevo.

13 You will now see a Catholic church, in the middle of your screen

14 now, built in 1990 and destroyed during the attack in July 2000 -- 1992.

15 Q. And not rebuilt by the looks of it.

16 A. Yes. Your Honours, south of Brisevo, now we're in Sanski Most

17 municipality looking at the settlement of Tomina, which is about 9 to 10

18 kilometres from Sanski Most town. There is this main road that you can

19 see in the middle of your screens. This is the Sanski Most-Kljuc road,

20 Kljuc further south. Recently we have exhumed mass graves here.

21 Your Honours, very close to Tomina. Within a few kilometres are

22 the settlements of Vrhpolje and Hrustovo. This is still Tomina but now

23 we're moving in the direction of the Vrhpolje. Here you see the Vrhpolje

24 bridge, Your Honours, main Sanski Most-Kljuc road.

25 This is Hrustovo -- sorry, Vrhpolje bridge, and this will be

Page 1371

1 mentioned quite a few times during the course of this trial. You will

2 also see a new cemetery very soon where victims are buried. Those were

3 exhumed in 1996, 1997. This here, Your Honours.

4 Your Honours, now we're looking in the direction of Vrhpolje.

5 We'll go back there once again. This is the settlement of Vrpholje, and

6 on this side of Sana River is Hrustovo.

7 This, Your Honours, is Vrhpolje.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that's the fourth killing listed in

9 paragraph 38.

10 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, now we are flying over Vrhpolje and

11 looking in the direction of the hamlets of Begici and Kenjari, two hamlets

12 that will be mentioned in the trial, very close to Vrhpolje, within

13 kilometres. And while still flying over Vrhpolje, we'll soon see the

14 settlement of Hrustovo.

15 This, Your Honours, to the left-hand side of your screens, there's

16 a mosque in the distance, a minaret, I mean, and this is Hrustovo.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that's the next killing listed in

18 paragraph 38.

19 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, from here we will be flying to Kljuc

20 municipality and the first place -- we're still looking at Hrustovo. The

21 first place we'll come to is the village of Kenjari, this. You can see

22 the new cemetery here where over 280 people are buried. Those were

23 exhumed from three different sites. This village was attacked on the 10th

24 of July, 1992. Biljani is about, Your Honours, 12 kilometres north-west

25 of Kljuc town. And we are looking at Biljani village.

Page 1372

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that killing is listed in paragraph

2 41. That's the fourth one.

3 THE WITNESS: Just in front of this forested area that we see at

4 the bottom of the screen is a barn that will be referred to during the

5 course of this trial, very close to the school building which is now

6 turned into a cemetery.

7 There is a stable that you will see, Your Honour, very soon. We

8 are seeing it right now, but I'll be focusing on it. It's a roofless

9 stable here right in the centre, which will also figure -- come up during

10 the course of the trial.

11 This, Your Honours, is the village of Prhovo, which is about 11

12 kilometres north-east of Kljuc town, a village that was attacked on 1st of

13 June, Your Honours. Amongst the victims were many elderly women. Many

14 who were killed, their bodies have been exhumed. And soon we will see a

15 cemetery where their remains have been buried.

16 This white square that you see at the bottom of your screens is a

17 new cemetery on the road from Kljuc heading towards Grabovica.

18 This is Grabovica, located south of Kotor Varos. This is the

19 Grabovica school. And I think it's best for witnesses to point out what

20 happened here. Overwhelmingly Serb village located in a valley. This is

21 the back side of the school.

22 This, Your Honours, is the settlement of Vrbanjci, also located

23 about 15 kilometres south of Kotor Varos. So this is a destroyed mosque

24 that you see in the centre of your screens with the dome. This is the

25 upper half of Vrbanjci, and, Your Honours, this is the lower half of

Page 1373

1 Vrbanjci, which is separated by a small river.

2 We are flying over Vrbanjci, Your Honours, and now looking east in

3 the direction of Dabovci. And Hanifici village is further 3 kilometres to

4 the east of Dabovci.

5 Unfortunately, it wasn't a clear day when this footage was made.

6 This, Your Honours, is Dabovci, the main Kotor Varos-Teslic road

7 running in front of it, attacked mid-August 1992.

8 The road that you see in the background is the road leading

9 towards the village of Hanifici from Dabovci, to the right.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, these are listed in paragraph 38 at page

11 15, starting with the third killing listed.

12 THE WITNESS: This, Your Honours, is the village of Hanifici,

13 approximately a hundred houses, all destroyed during the attack on the

14 13th of June, 1992. There, Your Honours, are the settlements of Hanifici

15 and Cerkin Brdo that is north of Hanifici and that's the direction where

16 Hanifici and Cerkin Brdo are. And we might get a distant view of those

17 two settlements.

18 This is still Hanifici. This, Your Honours, is a distant view of

19 Hanifici and Cerkin Brdo, also attacked mid-August 1992.

20 Your Honours, now we'll be heading towards the Kotor Varos town.

21 This is Kotor Varos town, Your Honours, located south-east of Banja Luka.

22 Quite a few settlements in the town known as Cepak, Kotor Varos,

23 Kotoriste, Ravni in the distance in the mountains.

24 This is the main road, Your Honours, where the main buildings are

25 located, police station, Municipal Assembly building. And this is the

Page 1374

1 sawmill where female detainees are brought from Muslim and Croat

2 villages. This, Your Honours, is a sawmill. We'll see soon a Catholic

3 church in the distance. Here, centre of your screens. Destroyed.

4 This is the football ground, Your Honours, and to the right of the

5 football ground is the Prijedor medical centre, Prijedor hospital, a scene

6 of a massacre which witnesses will talk about.

7 I believe we have come to the end of the aerial footage, except

8 that when witnesses talk of a grassy plot in front of the hospital, that's

9 the last scene we'll see here. I'm refocusing on the grassy plot, this,

10 Your Honours, in front of the hospital.

11 And a few -- I think after this is the Manjaca camp.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, if we can run the rest of the video through.

13 Q. Mr. Inayat, we've only got ten minutes. I think we need to keep

14 the comments short.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Sorry. Could we play the rest of the video.

17 A. This is a dirt road, Your Honours, leading to the military farms,

18 and this is the Manjaca military establishment. It's about 3 kilometres

19 from the establishment where the main gate is. Main gate to your left.

20 Main gate. This is where we have just come from, and this is the parking

21 area in front of the main gate.

22 Administration building 10 metres from the main gate on the

23 right-hand side. This is to the left of the main gate, very close.

24 Observation tower about 200 metres from the main road, facing the main

25 gate.

Page 1375

1 Some of the barracks, the cattle sheds. In all, I think there are

2 about 13 or 14. And this is shed number 1. This is inside of the shed.

3 Q. Is this where prisoners were kept, Mr. Inayat?

4 A. Yes, that's true. The shed just in front of us is the place that

5 was used as a kitchen, and to the left, so the backhand side of the shed

6 number 1.

7 I think we can fast forward this because basically this is taking

8 a view of some of the other sheds. So if we can fast forward here.

9 MS. KORNER: If we could fast forward.

10 THE WITNESS: Okay. That's it. And this is once again the

11 administration building, and the only thing we wanted to show you was the

12 office of the camp Commander, Colonel Bozidar Popovic.

13 This, Your Honours, is an Orthodox church which was being built in

14 1992, located about 3 to 4 kilometres from the detention camp. Prisoners

15 were brought here for allegedly forced labour.

16 I think this brings us to the end of the video.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much.

18 Your Honours, that was merely so that one can get a picture of the

19 area. Of course, it can always be replayed once you've heard the evidence

20 when it perhaps may mean more. May I ask that become Prosecutor's Exhibit

21 447.


23 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Then, Your Honours, on Monday, may I

24 explain that I will not be here because I'm professionally obliged to be

25 in the Court of Appeal in England on Monday, but Mr. Cayley and another

Page 1376

1 member of the team, Mr. Koumjian, will be here on Monday.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate you informed the Trial Chamber

3 [Microphone not activated]

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry about that.

6 I thank you, Ms. Korner, for informing the Trial Chamber of your

7 absence on Monday coming.

8 We have got very few minutes. What do you propose to do on

9 Monday? Which witness, by number?

10 MS. KORNER: I've forgotten what his number is now.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it according to the schedule that you had given

12 to the Trial Chamber?

13 MS. KORNER: That list -- that order will be followed. I'm

14 reminded it's 7.99, the witness.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And that is one witness, Mr. Ackerman, in regard to

16 whom you had asked for a delay. Do you maintain your position or do you

17 withdraw that position now? Because otherwise we will have to decide it

18 here and now.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm working through the

20 material. It took me a long time to finish Donia. I started on it last

21 night. They have supplied us with all the of the translations that I

22 think were missing, and I am reasonably satisfied that we could proceed

23 normally, that there will be no problem, and if one develops -- I'll be

24 working all weekend. If one develops on Monday, I'll just have to tell

25 you on Monday, but I don't think there will be.

Page 1377

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. One last thing. How long do you anticipate

2 this witness to be engaged in front of us?

3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that was what we were discussing

4 just before Your Honours came in. We're not sitting next Friday. I have

5 forgotten why not.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not sitting next Friday because I need to be

7 away, and we are not sitting on Monday and Tuesday because Mr. Ackerman

8 has to be away. And we will be announcing -- and also that I had told you

9 that Judge Janu is required to be in Prague in February, and that is going

10 to be on the 7th. So basically we will not be sitting on the 7th as

11 well.

12 MS. KORNER: So that's -- so we'll only be sitting Monday. Monday

13 to Wednesday of next week.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

15 MS. KORNER: In that case, I have no doubt at all that the witness

16 will take the whole week. And I don't -- he may not finish if it's only

17 three days. We -- Mr. Koumjian, who will be calling him, estimates that

18 examination-in-chief won't finish until the Tuesday morning. We'll just

19 have to -- I don't think he's going to be very happy. He's been here

20 since Tuesday, regrettably.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The weather has been good.

22 MS. KORNER: Sort of.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will reconvene on Monday morning at 9.00

24 sharp. I thank you. I also thank the interpreters for their

25 cooperation. As usual, you have been extremely cooperative, and that's

Page 1378

1 it.

2 The Court will rise now, and we will resume on Monday.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day

5 of February, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.