1 Tuesday, 26 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we call the case, please?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Brdjanin and Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Brdjanin. As usual, I put the

9 question to you: Can you hear me in a language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour,

11 yes, I can.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down. General Talic, good

13 morning to you. Can you hear me in a language that you can understand?

14 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I

15 can hear you in a language that I understand.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution?

17 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, may it please Your Honours, my name is Andrew

18 Cayley. I appear on behalf of the Prosecutor with my colleague Anna

19 Richterova.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. And for Mr. Brdjanin?

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honour, I'm John Ackerman and I

22 appear with my co-counsel Milka Maglov and Tania Radosavljevic.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. And for General Talic?

24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

25 Mr. President and Your Honours. I am Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic and I'm

1 assisted by Fabien Masson. I represent General Talic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. So are there any preliminaries

3 that you would like to have discussed or debated before we call in the

4 witness? Okay. So Madam Registrar, someone perhaps could bring the

5 witness in. Thank you.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Medic. You will be handed

8 once more the same piece of paper as yesterday in which there is the

9 solemn declaration that you are kindly asked to make before you recommence

10 giving evidence.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 WITNESS: ADIL MEDIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down and good morning to you. This

16 morning, you are going to be cross-examined first by the Defence counsel

17 for General Momir Talic. Later on you may or may not be cross-examined by

18 the other Defence team, that is for Radoslav Brdjanin. I can't tell you

19 as from now what's going to happen.

20 Madam Fauveau, please.

21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Before starting I would like to demand the Prosecutor to provide the

23 witness with his statements, former statements.

24 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, if you could take the statements? Thank

25 you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's make sure that he has the right statements.

2 Mr. Medic

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:

4 Q. Do you have three statements? One from January, 1996, one from

5 August, 2001 and your written statement of February, 2000?

6 A. August.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Medic, you should have in front of you one

8 statement which allegedly you made following the interviews on the 30th

9 and 31st of January, 1996. Do you have that statement?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And you have it in the -- your own language?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Then you should have another statement which dates

14 24th of August, 2001.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Also, do you have it in your own language?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Then there is another statement made supposedly by

19 you on the 22nd of February, 2000.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And you have it in your own language, too?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then Madam Fauveau, I think on the basis

24 of that you may proceed.

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

1 Q. Mr. Medic, you had two interviews with the Prosecutor's Office,

2 once in January, 1996 and the second time in August 2001. You also

3 provided a written statement in February, 2000. Is that right?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Could you tell us whether you provided this written statement, the

6 one that you wrote in February, 2000, at the request of the Prosecutor or

7 was it on your own initiative?

8 A. It was on my own initiative.

9 Q. In your statement of August, 2001, on page 2, you said that you

10 had an interview with the Prosecutor but that you hadn't made a signed,

11 written statement or rather that you hadn't signed your statement. On

12 page 2 of your statement that you gave in 2001?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It's the third paragraph. You said that you had previously been

15 interviewed by the Prosecutor but that you didn't sign a statement.

16 Mr. Medic, have you found this paragraph?

17 A. I don't understand the text. You have to tell me what it is.

18 Q. It's the statement of August, 2001, and in your language, it

19 starts with, "MKSJ already interviewed me but I didn't give a signed

20 statement."

21 A. Yes, I found it now. I can see what it says.

22 Q. Did you say that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If you have a look at the written -- at the English version of

25 your declaration of 1996, it has been signed Adil Medic. Mr. Medic, it's

1 the text that is English. I think it is to your right.

2 A. Perhaps there was an exchange where I wrote that I had personally

3 submitted a statement, but that doesn't change anything. It's true that

4 in January, 1996, I gave a statement to the investigators. I gave a

5 statement in Sarajevo.

6 Q. But you did sign this statement?

7 A. Yes, that's my signature there.

8 Q. And you also signed the statement that you wrote in February,

9 2000?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you wrote your statement in February, 2000, did you use

12 certain documents to verify the names or the dates that you referred to?

13 A. I put certain elements into order in my head and on paper so

14 perhaps certain dates had to be corrected, but they were small

15 corrections. But nothing essential is changed by that.

16 Q. Yesterday, you said that the activities of Merhamet restarted in

17 1991, in December, 1991?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Does that mean that before December, 1991, the Merhamet

20 organisation was not active in Banja Luka?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In this case, what happened in December, 1991?

23 A. I was not a participant in that event but I know that it took

24 place since there was a war in Croatia, they probably -- people probably

25 thought that problems might arise. That the population might have to move

1 and that they would need to be helped. That's my -- that's what I'm

2 convinced of but I wasn't a participant in that event.

3 Q. You said yesterday that the Red Cross existed in Banja Luka but

4 that in 1992, it didn't communicate with the Serbian and Muslim people.

5 Were you talking about the local Red Cross or the International Red Cross?

6 A. I didn't say in 1991. I said in 1992. And I'm referring to the

7 local Red Cross.

8 Q. So the International Red Cross was present in Banja Luka in 1992?

9 A. No. In 1992, I think that it was in the beginning of July.

10 Q. And after July, 1992, the International Red Cross was in Banja

11 Luka?

12 A. Yes, all the time.

13 Q. From July, 1992, did you have contact with the International Red

14 Cross?

15 A. Yes, continually.

16 Q. Did Merhamet have contact with the SDA in Banja Luka in 1992?

17 A. Yes, by all means, but the contact was sporadic and it was without

18 me because I didn't take part in these contacts.

19 Q. Do you know what the relation was between Merhamet and the SDA in

20 Banja Luka in 1992?

21 A. They weren't very courteous.

22 Q. Do you know why?

23 A. I think that there were sometimes personal issues which were at

24 stake.

25 Q. Yesterday, you said that Merhamet helped in general Bosniak

1 people, but that on your list, there were also 4.500 people of non-Muslim

2 nationality. Do you have this list?

3 A. No. But in Merhamet -- this list existed in Merhamet, and they

4 regularly received help at the -- at certain points, or as we call them

5 Djemac [phoen], which is where they lived. Everyone lived together

6 regardless of their nationality.

7 Q. Do you know if this list still exists in Merhamet?

8 A. I assume that it does. If it hasn't been taken away by -- in some

9 sort of search.

10 Q. In your statement of February, 2000, could you have a look at page

11 1? Your written statement, the one that you provided to the Prosecutor in

12 written form.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On page 1, the very first paragraph, you said that General Talic

15 phoned the mufti Halilovic to prepare a delegation in order to help the

16 detainees in Manjaca because they did not have enough food.

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Did you or someone else from Merhamet contact General Talic before

19 the telephone conversation with the mufti on the 16th of June?

20 A. I assume that Mr. Alija Efendi Hadzihalilovic did.

21 Q. Do you agree that in June, 1992, Banja Luka was not sufficiently

22 provided with food and with medical supplies?

23 A. In 1992, at the beginning, there was food, but there wasn't enough

24 medicine, but as time passed, this lack increased. There was no alcohol

25 at all, for example, and in medicine, that is essential.

1 Q. You said that on the 18th of June, 1992, the delegation of which

2 you were a part visited the Manjaca camp.

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. You said that Dr. Smajic should have been in this delegation but

5 that he was prevented from doing so because he was on duty?

6 A. Yes. He was a member of the executive committee or board at the

7 level of Yugoslavia and on the 17th, we had a meeting, a joint meeting,

8 the entire team, and he gave us some very important instructions for our

9 talks in Manjaca but unfortunately he wasn't able to go because he was

10 prevented by being on duty.

11 Q. So you can confirm that Dr. Smajic was prevented from visiting

12 Manjaca camp and was prevented from doing this because of his work?

13 A. That's what he said.

14 Q. Could you say where Dr. Smajic worked?

15 A. In the psychiatric clinic. He's a neuropsychiatrist, I think.

16 That's his profession, his specialty.

17 Q. Do you agree that Dr. Smajic is a Muslim or a Bosniak?

18 A. Yes. The correction was good. I object to the term a Muslim,

19 even in these documents, but, yes, he's a Bosniak.

20 Q. During this first visit at the Manjaca camp, did you see the

21 prisoners?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you were able to speak to them?

24 A. Yes, on two occasions. Once while visiting the camp and the

25 second time after a group had been taken out, a group of prisoners had

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1 been taken out, seven from each stable.

2 Q. And during this visit, you spoke to Muhamed Filipovic?

3 A. Yes. He was immobile. He was the only one lying down.

4 Q. And Muhamed Filipovic told you that he had been beaten?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did he say when he had been beaten?

7 A. No. There wasn't such opportunity for conversation.

8 Q. Were the guards present while were you speaking to Muhamed

9 Filipovic?

10 A. The officers were nearby. The officers who were at the

11 negotiations.

12 Q. Were they able to hear your conversation with Muhamed Filipovic?

13 A. That was difficult.

14 Q. So, in fact, you had the opportunity to speak to him in private,

15 to the prisoners in private?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said that the people in the camp were dressed in civilian

18 clothes.

19 A. Exclusively.

20 Q. You recognised certain people from the Kljuc area, in particular

21 from Sanica?

22 A. Yes, and from Kljuc.

23 Q. When did you see these people for the last time, before -- before

24 you saw them in the Manjaca camp?

25 A. I lived in Banja Luka but at least once or twice I would spend my

1 weekends in Sanica, at least once or twice a month. And I would spend the

2 major part of my holiday there because my mother lived there and two

3 brothers of mine too, until they were expelled in 1992 from Sanica.

4 Q. Could you tell us, before the visit to Manjaca, when were you in

5 Kljuc for the last time or in Sanica?

6 A. In 1990 I spent about ten days there, on several occasions,

7 because I was on sick leave and getting ready to retire so I almost spent

8 the year 1990 in Sanica and in 1991, I was there only a few times.

9 Q. And in 1992, were you in Sanica or Kljuc?

10 A. No. On the 5th of January, 1993, I was there for the first time,

11 in Kljuc. That is when I took a convoy of provisions there.

12 Q. Do you agree that in certain areas of Bosnia, the Bosniaks

13 organised themselves in armed units?

14 A. I have no idea.

15 Q. So I assume that you don't know that there was an organised

16 resistance in the Kljuc region?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You said that on the 22nd of June, 1992, you were at a meeting

19 with General Talic.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In your statement of February, 2000, on page 1, the last page, you

22 said that Colonel Selak attended this meeting.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You also said that on that occasion, Colonel Selak had already

25 asked to retire, he had already submitted his request for retirement?

1 A. According to my information, he had done so at the time.

2 Q. When did you find out that Colonel Selak had already made a

3 request for retirement at that time?

4 A. I knew him before the war, too, through my job. And on that

5 basis.

6 Q. Did you have any contact with Colonel Selak in 1992 while he was

7 still a member of the army?

8 A. Yes, I did, but only occasionally or by accident. When he was

9 demobilised, then we would see each other more often.

10 Q. Can you confirm that at the meeting of the 22nd of June, 1992, you

11 were present or that -- at which you were present with General Talic, you

12 received authorisation to deliver humanitarian aid to the detainees in the

13 Manjaca camp? Can you confirm this?

14 A. Yes. The General Talic quite correctly said that in further

15 contact with Colonel Vukelic and Colonel Gojko Vujnovic, I should proceed

16 with this, but mainly I carried out further work through Colonel Vujnovic

17 Gojko. But the executive permission was given to me by the security

18 organ, that is Mr. Dasic. And on this permission, it said, "Permission

19 for movement in the zone of combat activities." Anyone going to Manjaca,

20 the driver and the escort, had to have such a permission.

21 Q. On several occasions yesterday during the hearing, and in your

22 prior statements, you said that you personally or through other members of

23 Merhamet delivered aid to the detainees in Manjaca 48 times.

24 A. One plus 48. The first time at the negotiations and 48 times

25 through the deliveries. For the first 15 times or so, I was involved

1 personally. Later, occasionally, the rest was done by my associates.

2 Q. When you talk about these 48 times, which period are you referring

3 to?

4 A. From the 18th of June until the first half of December, we went

5 there the beginning of December for the last time, before Manjaca was

6 evacuated, that is when the detainees were moved from there.

7 Q. So therefore, during six months, you delivered aid to the

8 detainees in Manjaca 48 plus one, that is 49 times in that six-month

9 period?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That means that you delivered such aid roughly twice a week?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you and other members of Merhamet each time were given

14 permission of access to the camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yesterday, you said that you were able to notice psychological

17 change among the prisoners following the aid that you delivered to them.

18 A. Yes. Once we started coming regularly.

19 Q. So following your visits to Manjaca, the conditions improved?

20 A. Certainly it did.

21 Q. And these visits were possible solely with the approval of General

22 Talic?

23 A. His associates. I no longer had direct contact with General Talic

24 for my visits. But it was on the basis of the general position of General

25 Talic as expressed on the 22nd of June, which was fully observed.

1 Q. Yesterday, you said that at the Manjaca camp, you spoke to Omer

2 Filipovic.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell us when you spoke to him?

5 A. I saw him in the stable for a moment, for a second, and we spoke

6 after representatives of the detainees came out of the stables, seven per

7 stable, in the open area in the presence of the officers who were

8 participating in the negotiations.

9 Q. Yesterday, you said that Omer Filipovic died the 28th of August,

10 1992.

11 A. The night between the 28th and the 29th. That is what was written

12 in the documents.

13 Q. Could you please look at page 3 of your statement of January,

14 1996? It is the last sentence in the one-but-last paragraph. You said

15 that Omer Filipovic was killed on the 30th of July, 1992.

16 A. On the 30th of July, I learned that he had been killed, but the

17 correct date is the night between the 28th and the 29th.

18 Q. Is it the 28th or 29th of July or August? Because yesterday, you

19 said the 28th of August.

20 A. That -- I misspoke. It's July.

21 Q. Yesterday, you also said that on the same day that Filipovic was

22 killed, you had a discussion with Colonel Vukelic.

23 A. This was a coincidence. It just happened to be on that day.

24 Q. Now, if you look at the same statement of 1996, on page 5, the

25 last paragraph, you said that you spoke to Colonel Vukelic on the 1st of

1 August, 1992, that is two days after the death of Omer Filipovic.

2 A. Those are the minor date errors, but the conversation was on the

3 29th and the killing in the night between the 28th and the 29th.

4 Q. Yesterday, you also told us that on the day that Omer Filipovic

5 died, you felt that the relationship between the police and the Manjaca

6 staff was disturbed.

7 A. I said that I felt that the atmosphere had changed significantly

8 and that something of major importance had happened, and that is what

9 prompted me to talk to Colonel Vukelic because it was not the same kind of

10 attitude that the staff had when we delivered aid to Manjaca after that.

11 Q. So you're telling us today that yesterday you didn't say that the

12 relationship between the police and the staff had changed?

13 A. No. I didn't say that. I said that something strange was

14 happening and it seemed to me that something was wrong and that is why I

15 asked to see Colonel Vukelic.

16 Q. Nevertheless, on page 34 of yesterday's transcript, you said, or

17 at least that is how it was translated [Previous translation continues]...

18 "between the police and the personnel in Manjaca had been disturbed."

19 A. [Interpretation] I really didn't say that. I said what I just

20 told you, that I felt that something was wrong in the atmosphere, that

21 something had happened, as that is what prompted me to look up Colonel

22 Vukelic.

23 Q. You said that the first major release of prisoners took place on

24 the 10th of July, 1992.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you personally or someone else from Merhamet request that

2 these persons be released?

3 A. Neither.

4 Q. You said that on that occasion, 105 persons were released.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know why these persons were released?

7 A. Probably because of the rules according to the convention, those

8 under 18, those over 60 years of age and the sick.

9 Q. Did you know whether the International Red Cross visited the

10 Manjaca camp?

11 A. Yes, but after us. We first started going there and they arrived

12 I think it was in July, mid-July, or the second half of July, and then

13 independently from us, without any agreement with us, they went to

14 Manjaca. There was no coordination between us. We went on our own and

15 they, of course, went according to their own assignments.

16 Q. But you had contacts with the International Red Cross after July,

17 1992, surely?

18 A. Yes. I said continuously, from the beginning until the end.

19 Q. Did you know that in August, 1992, 92 persons were released from

20 the Manjaca camp at the request of the Red Cross?

21 A. In August, that is probably the 65 sick persons who were

22 transferred to England. I assume that is what you're referring to. Among

23 them was Muhamed Filipovic.

24 Q. So you are aware that at least one release took place from the

25 Manjaca camp in August 1992?

1 A. I think that that is the date.

2 Q. Do you agree that the Manjaca camp was closed in December, 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you know under which conditions?

5 A. The International Red Cross took care of the large group of

6 detainees that remained in Manjaca but somewhat earlier, about 500 people

7 had disappeared from the Manjaca camp. Afterwards, through the

8 International Red Cross, seven days later, I learned that they were in the

9 Batkovic camp in the north eastern part of Bosnia. Those people from

10 Batkovici were finally exchanged in October, but not all of them. Some of

11 them were released earlier but the last group was exchanged in October,

12 1993, at Turbe near Travnik, a total of 158 of them, and I was present at

13 that exchange, prisoner exchange.

14 Q. Do you know that simultaneously with the liberation of prisoners

15 from the Manjaca camp, Serb prisoners should have been released from Croatian

16 and Muslim camps?

17 A. Frequently. In most cases, there were exchanges in smaller or

18 larger groups.

19 Q. Do you know if Serb prisoners were released from Muslim or Croat camps

20 when the prisoners were released from Manjaca?

21 A. I assumed so but I did not have any specific information.

22 Q. Yesterday, the Prosecutor showed you a video clip. It is 468,

23 P468. The sound is a very poor quality but it is subtitled in

24 Serbo-Croat. This video was taped in 1992 and the Prosecutor showed it to

25 the Chamber to show them the Manjaca camp. I should like to show you a

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1 few clips from that same video, from the moment when the Prosecutor

2 stopped it yesterday and I should like to you read out the subtitles.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the video be shown,

4 please?

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Medic, can you read to us what you see on the screen?

8 A. "Upon arrival, he declared that no matter how depressing the thing may

9 appear,the camp appears to have been correctly run."

10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Medic.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no more questions.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau. Mr. Ackerman?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no questions, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. That's what I

15 anticipated. Is Prosecution going to make re-examination of the witness?

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to use one document because

17 Madam Fauveau referred to a release of detainees from Manjaca on 20th

18 August and we have this document, and I would only like to show this

19 document to Mr. Medic and ask him to read a few entries in that document.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this a document that already has an exhibit

21 number? Has it been premarked?

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. It is document which is part of your

23 binders, Banja Luka collection, and it was premarked as Prosecution

24 Exhibit P415.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, just let us have a look at it

1 because I was not informed beforehand that this document was going to be

2 made use of in this morning's testimony.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You may pass on the exhibit or the document to

5 the witness, and -- I think we better keep it for the moment. Yes,

6 Madam Richterova. Mr. Usher, please give the document to the witness.

7 And perhaps Madam Richterova you would kindly explain to the witness what

8 document or ask him to explain the import or the nature of this document.

9 Re-examined by Ms. Richterova:

10 Q. Mr. Medic, have you seen this document before?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Madam Fauveau referred to a release of witnesses in August, and

13 she stated that it was on request of International Red Cross. Would you

14 be so kind and read on page number 1, the last paragraph, starting in

15 B/C/S ... [no interpretation]?

16 A. Shall I? "A list of 92 individuals for whom there is no evidence

17 of executing or participating in combat activities probably and are quite

18 ill and their appearance is attracting attention from the media and

19 representatives of humanitarian organisations."

20 Q. So it is just that their appearance is attracting attention from

21 the media and humanitarian organisation. Can I ask you to move to page

22 number 7?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And read the entry under number 5?

25 A. On page 7 the numbers are 24, 25, 26, 27 and 28.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, she is right.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA:

3 Q. Yes, so please can you read the entry under number 25?

4 A. "Sadikvic Fadil, son of and Abdulah, born 1934 in Krasulje,

5 arrested on the 2nd of June, 1992, high blood pressure, sciatica and

6 stomach illness."

7 Q. And entry on -- entry under 26?

8 A. "Oreskovic, Ivan, son of Ivan, born 1934 in Sanica."

9 Q. And the last --

10 A. "Arrested 31st of May, 1992, has a heart condition. I know this

11 person personally.

12 Q. The entries relating to 2nd of June and 31st of May are entries

13 for when these people were arrested, and 1934 is date of birth. And the

14 release of these persons were arranged for 20th of August. So it is two,

15 three months, after they were arrested?

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: I do not have any other questions to this

17 witness, and I would like to ask you to formally admit it in evidence

18 exhibits which were stated yesterday and today. It's P467, P468, P469.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: These are the three statements?

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: It was the sketch, the video.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The sketch has already been admitted yesterday, I

22 think. 467.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: I want to make sure that they were formally

24 admitted.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But -- and then there was another document

1 yesterday.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: The criminal charges.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The criminal charges which was 468 and 469 in the

4 two languages.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: And 468 was the video.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: 468 was the video, yes. So. Yes. Now this has to

7 be admitted as well. And I would suggest to you that you ask for the

8 formal admission of Exhibit 451 for the purpose of the evidence of --

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, and I want to ask to be formally admitted.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: This has been admitted already, I think, no? Yes.

11 This has been admitted already. And are we in a position to check on line

12 now in real time whether the other three documents have already been

13 formally admitted yesterday? They weren't? So they are being formally

14 admitted now.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yeah, it's only in that the Livenote is 451, it

16 is, in fact P415.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: 415, yes. Okay. I think you can have it back.

18 Thank you. So you can put your mind at rest that all the documents you

19 needed to have admitted have been admitted now.

20 Mr. Medic, the Chamber has got some questions for you. Judge

21 Taya, please proceed.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE TAYA: Mr. Medic, according to your statement dated 30th and

24 31st January, 1996, page 4, paragraph fifth of English version, you had an

25 official meeting with General Talic on 22nd June, 1992. The explanation

1 of this meeting is, at least for me, rather abstract, lacks concrete and

2 exact description of the conversation which took place at that occasion.

3 So I have several questions concerning this meeting and related matters.

4 First, was this the first meeting for you with General Talic?

5 A. Yes. First and last.

6 JUDGE TAYA: According to your same statement, four days before

7 this meeting, that is to say on 18th June, 1992, you visited Manjaca camp,

8 and you wrote your report about the findings from this visit. Then my

9 questions are as follows: You had already finished writing this report

10 before the official meeting with General Talic on 22nd June, 1992?

11 A. Yes, already on the 19th.

12 JUDGE TAYA: Did you have any intention to deliver that report to

13 General Talic?

14 A. No.

15 JUDGE TAYA: Why not?

16 A. It was a report written for the executive committee of Merhamet so

17 that they should know where I'd been, what I did, and what should be done

18 next regarding aid. There were various suggestions as to how the

19 detainees at Manjaca should be assisted. It was not intended for public

20 use.

21 JUDGE TAYA: You said in the same statement, "I also gave the

22 military officers my general impression from the visit to Manjaca camp, in

23 which I officially notified General Talic and his men about the claims by

24 the prisoners that beatings were regularly carried out in Manjaca."

25 Concerning this sentence, I want to know more precisely, minutely, the

1 contents of general impression from the visit to Manjaca camp. Please

2 reproduce at your best recollection, what you said to General Talic and

3 others at that time.

4 A. That we had conducted talks, that I was satisfied with those

5 talks. If what was agreed is implemented, and that the detainees had said

6 that they were being mistreated there, and what I had seen in terms of the

7 condition they lived in in the stables and their appearance. I really did

8 convey this in very -- very briefly, because there was no sense in any

9 lengthy descriptions of the conditions there, as I assumed that General

10 Talic was aware of them. Also, at the end, when we came to the end of our

11 talk, I asked General Talic why telephone connections with the environs of

12 Banja Luka had been cut and I remember well the answer, which was that it

13 was a strategic question and though I'm a civilian and I don't understand

14 strategy, but only humanitarian issues up to a point, I couldn't really

15 understand what this meant.

16 JUDGE TAYA: At the last line of this fifth paragraph of page 5 of

17 the same statement, you said "Tadic is very present in private contacts,

18 always makes promises of help," et cetera. Then how about General Talic's

19 attitude at the official meeting?

20 A. Precisely as it says there, that is what I still think, what I

21 still believe.

22 JUDGE TAYA: His attitude was different between private meeting

23 and official meeting?

24 A. That was my impression of a man that I was talking to at that

25 point in time and attending a meeting with.

1 JUDGE TAYA: What promises General Talic made? Please describe

2 more precisely.

3 A. That we could implement the agreements through his associates at

4 Manjaca, which actually did take place.

5 JUDGE TAYA: You said also in the same paragraph, "But the

6 promises never materialised." When and how you knew that his promises

7 were never materialised?

8 A. That may have been a reference to other circumstances, but

9 regarding the steps taken in Manjaca, regarding the delivery of

10 humanitarian aid, those agreements were honoured.

11 JUDGE TAYA: My last question is: How about the situation of food

12 shortage in the municipality of Banja Luka during 1992, apart from the

13 shortage of alcohol? How about the situation of other foodstuffs?

14 A. I was referring to medical alcohol, not alcohol as alcoholic

15 drinks. Gradually, this shortage of essentials increased.

16 JUDGE TAYA: Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Medic, I think that brings to an end your

18 cooperation with this Trial Chamber as a witness. I must thank you for

19 your cooperation, for having been with us and for having testified. You

20 may now withdraw, and I think the Prosecution, the office of the

21 Prosecution will have -- have already arranged for you, made the

22 arrangements for your return to your country. Is there anything that you

23 require, any further, from the witness?

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may withdraw. Thank you.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, good morning.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Ms. Korner.

5 MS. KORNER: I am back. Your Honour, the next witness,

6 Mr. Dzonlic, is I think waiting, but before I call him, I think we need to

7 do some swapping of seats because there are only two, but can I mention

8 two administrative matters while I do that? The first is this:

9 Yesterday, Your Honour and Defence counsel were informed that we had a

10 third witness coming this week. It is absolutely right that I hadn't --

11 we hadn't given to Your Honours the statement but I think it will be

12 handed to Your Honours today. My learned friends were aware that he was

13 next on the list. He's a protected witness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know that. I was going to --

15 MS. KORNER: Yes. But that I don't think I'd specifically -- in

16 fact, I know I hadn't specifically said that he would be here this week.

17 The reason he's being here is because I didn't want to run out of

18 witnesses in case, Mr. Dzonlic finishes on Thursday, which it seems to me

19 is possible, this witness will be available to be called on Friday. He

20 deals with a very limited aspect of this case and so I would hope that if

21 necessary, my learned friends will find themselves in a position to deal

22 with that evidence. He largely affects Mr. Brdjanin.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, I think I would -- you would find me

24 behind you foursquare if you take this approach to make sure that in other

25 words we don't find ourselves in a predicament say on Thursday afternoon

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1 or Thursday having no more witnesses, something that actually we discussed

2 amongst ourselves yesterday when we realised that, by 11.00, we had

3 finished with the examination-in-chief of Mr. Medic. However, there is

4 also this agreement or arrangement that we had come to in the early stages

5 of this trial whereby on Thursday of the previous -- of each week, you

6 inform the Prosecution -- so basically if it is your intention to take

7 these kinds of advisable precautions, I would suggest to be on the safe

8 side to mention or include the name of the witness rather than to leave it

9 out. At worst, what could happen is that the Defence would -- and you

10 would find yourself in a position where that -- the evidence of that

11 witness has to be postponed to the following week, which is no major

12 tragedy at all. So we could easily live with that. On the other hand, if

13 the name of the witness is not mentioned or indication is not given to the

14 Defence, the week before, when Mr. Ackerman or Madam Fauveau stand up and

15 say, "We were not told," et cetera, I have to show total understanding and

16 probably also give in to their objections. Even though I must say that as

17 we go along, I'm appreciating more and more their cooperation and their

18 willingness to cooperate even further. So --

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's no excuse, but of course we didn't

20 sit Friday, and we were doing a lot of reorganising of witnesses on the

21 Thursday and that is why things fell through the --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand that. In any case, yes, Mr. Ackerman

23 has got something to tell us in regard.

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I mention -- I'm sorry, I'm afraid

25 we have made -- I see Mr. Ackerman is on his feet, but I want to mention

1 the next witness. Madam Fauveau told the Court yesterday she was going to

2 be two hours so --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: He's not here?

4 MS. KORNER: He's not here. I'm told he's going to be here for

5 the resumed sitting at 11.00. Your Honour, there is one other matter I

6 can raise in the interim but Mr. Ackerman wants to say something about the

7 next witness, I gather.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the -- this third witness that the

10 Prosecution has coming this week, I have begun my work on that witness. I

11 think it's unlikely that we would get to the point of cross-examination in

12 any event on Friday, and therefore, any objection that I made yesterday

13 regarding his appearance this week I will now withdraw.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that, Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: And I think we can move forward, and at best we

16 will probably get through direct examination of that witness on Friday. I

17 doubt we will get to cross but if we do, I'll be ready.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And Madam Fauveau? I haven't gone through

19 the evidence or the previous statements of this witness because they have

20 just been given to me now. So I don't quite know whether he involves more

21 one accused rather than the other. It seems I seem to note more the name

22 of Brdjanin.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I think he's almost exclusively Brdjanin, Your

24 Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. Yes, Madam Fauveau?

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no objections to

2 raise with regard to this witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner?

4 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that's very helpful and I'm

5 grateful to both counsel.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The Trial Chamber is grateful too. What I suggest

7 we do is we break now. Incidentally later on this morning, you will

8 have -- we are handing out the decision on the humanitarian -- okay? So

9 that should solve the pending -- that particular pending issue.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have one other matter to raise but

11 Mr. Ackerman I see is back on his feet.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: With regard further to this third witness, I just

14 want to make it clear that I'm not agreeing to a permanent modification of

15 the Rule. Ms. Korner actually should tell us on Thursday who is coming

16 the next week and we -- this is fairly easy to deal with but it could be

17 difficult and I think it we should enforce the Rule.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I mentioned it in the first place because

19 what happened has happened but I don't get the message that this is going

20 to be a tactic that is going to be resorted to. Far from it.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, no. I mean as Your Honour will

22 appreciate, it's not always difficult to gauge times. One -- poor

23 Mr. Dzonlic has been waiting ten days now I think. Your Honour, may I

24 mention witness 7.177, the journalist?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

1 MS. KORNER: There have been some further developments in this

2 matter. The summons was issued to him last Saturday. His newspaper or

3 his exnewspaper has instructed counsel who wishes to appear, not on

4 Monday, the 4th for which the summons was actually issued, but on the

5 following Wednesday. Now, Your Honour, the point that's been made and

6 that's why I'm raising it at this stage to put Your Honours and

7 Mr. Ackerman in the picture because it doesn't affect General Talic's

8 case, first of all. But second, to again raise this question of whether

9 it is required for him, the journalist, to give evidence. The reason I

10 raise it is because I spoke to counsel who has been instructed, and he

11 made again the point that the interview was in fact conducted through the

12 interpreting services of another journalist who spoke the Bosnian

13 language. The journalist who actually wrote the article did not, and

14 therefore his article is based on the translation that was given to him by

15 his colleague. Now, of course, Your Honour that's not uncommon. All the

16 interviews effectively with witnesses that are conducted by investigators

17 or lawyers are conducted through interpreters so to that extent I suppose

18 they could be said to be hearsay. However --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes and no.

20 MS. KORNER: -- the point that was made again was that

21 Mr. Ackerman requires him to attend for cross-examination. If it is to be

22 cross-examination upon the content of the interview, the journalist is

23 going to say, "Well, I recorded what was translated to me but I can say

24 nothing further about it." And therefore, Your Honour, this is going to

25 be a time-consuming process and perhaps an unnecessary one. Again we are

1 really asking Mr. Ackerman to reconsider the request that the journalist

2 attend for cross-examination. We are content purely to put the article in

3 that was written.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, of course, they are content to put the

6 article in that was written because that would deprive me of any

7 confrontation of any witness at all. If this witness could not understand

8 what Mr. Brdjanin was saying, then I don't know how he can be a witness in

9 any event, to anything. But certainly anything he wrote down that he

10 couldn't understand Mr. Brdjanin saying certainly could not be evidence

11 before this Court. Ms. Korner has touched the very matter that is the

12 essence of my challenge, and that is that the person who could actually

13 understand what Mr. Brdjanin was saying was hostile to Mr. Brdjanin

14 politically and it's my contention that what was written down was not what

15 Mr. Brdjanin said. And so I can't imagine how this statement could be

16 admitted without me being able to confront the person who actually had the

17 conversation with Mr. Brdjanin, whether it be Mr. Randall or someone

18 else. And if it's true that Mr. Randall has no idea what Mr. Brdjanin

19 said other than what someone else told him, then certainly the article

20 can't come in and I'm sympathetic with the Prosecutor's problem but I have

21 a right to cross-examine the witness who spoke to Mr. Brdjanin and

22 understood what he said. That may not be Mr. Randall.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not an a easy situation at all, because

24 basically, you are -- Ms. Korner you are making a statement which is very

25 convenient for Mr. Ackerman to agree with, to start with. In other words,

1 that although the paternity of the article itself goes to this witness,

2 this particular witness, in reality, the person who conducted the

3 interview was someone else, and anyway, what is purported to be an

4 interview here, according to what you are stating, is what the other

5 person told this witness, this reporter, that Mr. Brdjanin had stated.

6 More or less this is how it is. May I ask if the other person, in other

7 words, the person who put the questions to Mr. Brdjanin in a language

8 which Mr. Randall did not understand or could not understand, is going to

9 be produced as a witness or not?

10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, interestingly enough --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Without mentioning his name now obviously.

12 MS. KORNER: Interestingly enough, the person who -- the fellow

13 journalist who actually did speak the language is at the Tribunal at

14 present. He has been spoken to before by someone from the Prosecution and

15 declined utterly to testify. We are making efforts to speak to him again

16 today, to see whether the position will change. Your Honour has

17 mentioned, and rightly, that it's the best evidence that one should call

18 but one has a difficulty particularly with journalists and particularly I

19 have to say with American journalists who take a very -- or their papers

20 take a very strong line about any --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this other witness an American?

22 MS. KORNER: He's an American journalist -- about testifying. We

23 are making attempts to speak to him today in the hopes that he can be

24 persuaded for the reasons that are obvious, that he is the actual person

25 who interpreted. But having said that, Your Honour, the Prosecution would

1 still submit that the journalist who wrote the article -- I hear what

2 Mr. Ackerman has to say about the interpreter's hostility to Mr. Brdjanin,

3 so-called, the person who wrote the article presumably will have satisfied

4 himself in whatever measures a journalist can, that what was being

5 reported was accurate. Now, Your Honour, all the reports of interviews,

6 as I say, with participants in the conflict, and indeed witnesses, are

7 always conducted through interpreters. That is one of the problems. And

8 so to that extent, one is reliant on and it's one of the problems that has

9 come up in the statement, on the interpretation.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: With the difference that in those other instances

11 there is a measure of control, while here, unless this witness is brought

12 forward to answer questions or to enlighten us on the allegations that are

13 being made by -- particularly by Mr. Ackerman, he was a person who

14 either -- who was hostile to Mr. Brdjanin himself. It's a serious

15 allegation. And unfortunately we don't get anywhere further or any

16 further from what the position seems to be at the present time, at the

17 present moment, I think we are still very much in the air. Because

18 basically what you have is an article and an author that will come here

19 and say, "Yes, this is based on what my fellow journalist told me,

20 Mr. Brdjanin had stated in B/C/S." No way of controlling whether he was

21 being taken for a ride or whether he was being told the truth by his

22 fellow journalist. And there is this allegation that this fellow

23 journalist, contrary to Mr. Randall, had an axe to grind -- I mean he was

24 not sympathetic at all in regard to the accused Brdjanin. I don't need to

25 say much more. You realise immediately the position in which the Trial

1 Chamber would find itself. It will not say, "No, we will not admit this

2 statement," but it doesn't take anyone much to realise how much importance

3 the Trial Chamber will give to the statement after that. If the situation

4 remains as it is.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour as I say we are -- we hope to speak to

6 the journalist in question this afternoon.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: There was no one else present, these two gentlemen.

8 MS. KORNER: As I understand it, it was just the journalist who

9 wrote that article and his co-journalist, who at the time interestingly

10 enough was working for an English newspaper. Your Honour, I think it may

11 help, I don't know, having said that, my previous dealings with American

12 press do not give me great cause for optimism, but if Your Honour were to

13 express the view, which I could express to him, that his testimony is

14 clearly important.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: This other journalist?

16 MS. KORNER: To this other journalist, yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Has he been declared as a possible witness to the

18 Defence or not yet?

19 MS. KORNER: As he been, I'm sorry?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Indicated as a possible witness?

21 MS. KORNER: To the Defence?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No, by to you the Defence.

23 MS. KORNER: No, no because we have not spoken to him yet, but at

24 the moment we know he's declined.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: What power does the Trial Chamber have over him at

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1 this time?

2 MS. KORNER: None except if Your Honour were to express the view

3 perhaps --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course I can express the view. I mean the

5 importance of the witness -- of the testimony of such a witness is

6 self-explanatory, it's very obvious if it's on the basis of what he told

7 this other journalist that this article was drawn up and eventually

8 published, the importance of him coming over is obvious. But whether you

9 will get him to come here, come forward and give evidence is another

10 matter. And you understand that we cannot force him.

11 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, not unless I formally apply for a

12 witness summons, even though he's made no statement, he's clearly got

13 material evidence to give, but at the moment I'd prefer not to.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm not sure it's helpful for to you say that

16 it's important that he come testify because if you said the opposite --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I said it would be useful, his testimony may be

18 useful.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Probably would be.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It's whether it is essential or not is another

21 matter but from -- if Mr. Randall comes forward and says, "This was drawn

22 up on the basis of what Mr. so and so or Ms. so and so told me after

23 interviewing Mr. Brdjanin in Serbo-Croat," then --

24 MR. ACKERMAN: This is a matter that might have been better

25 resolved in conversations between Ms. Korner and I rather than bringing it

1 to the attention of the Court at this point.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously but you are also not in a position to

3 force this person to come over and give evidence.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: If he's here maybe the solution is for Ms. Korner

5 and I to talk to him together.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Maybe, if you can find that solution together, I

7 will leave -- let you sort things amongst yourselves, talk about it,

8 discuss amongst yourselves.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm just suggesting that.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: See whether it is at all possible. Not very

11 optimistic but --

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I think instead of the Prosecutor going off to try

13 to talk to him, that what should happen is they should try to arrange a

14 meeting between he and Ms. Korner and I and we could have a very frank

15 discussion about whether he will -- what it is he would be prepared to say

16 and whether he's prepared to testify or not and chances are we could solve

17 the whole problem that way rather than engaging in this kind of a

18 contentious argument in front of Court.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Especially if he gets word that you said he was not

20 sympathetic at all or he was antagonistic towards -- in regards to your

21 client, I can see him literally rushing into this courtroom to give

22 evidence. Anyway, I'll leave it up to you to see if you can find a

23 solution. I don't think the Trial Chamber is in a position to do anything

24 in this regard.

25 MS. KORNER: The only reason I raised it so that Your Honour

1 became aware that there was -- if the summons is -- well, it has been

2 enforced, there is an application by counsel representing the newspaper

3 for which Mr. Randall worked.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I think Mr. Ackerman has heard that so we can

5 take it up from there. We will break now for half an hour. You said

6 Mr. Dzonlic is coming at 11.00?

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes, I hope he'll be here before that so

8 he can settle in.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's say we can resume the sitting at 10 or 5 to

10 11.00.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes, I think if Your Honour were to say 11.00, we

12 would definitely have him here.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Mr. Dzonlic is in the waiting room. I

17 think the usher has gone to get him. We need the witness.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Good morning,

20 Mr. Dzonlic, you are now going to be given a statement that you are kindly

21 asked to make before you start giving evidence. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 WITNESS: AMIR DZONLIC

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Dzonlic, as you may have gathered already,

4 I am the Presiding Judge and I am flanked by the other two judges forming

5 this Trial Chamber. To your right is the team of lawyers for the

6 Prosecution that will be starting examining you this morning. To your

7 left there are the two teams for the Defence. The front row there is the

8 team for the Defence of Mr. Brdjanin and the back there is the Defence

9 team for General Talic.

10 Ms. Korner you may proceed

11 Examined by Ms. Korner:

12 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, could you give your full name to the court, please?

13 A. My full name is Amir Dzonlic. My father's name is Kerim and my

14 mother's name is Behija.

15 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, are you a Bosniak?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Not that it needs saying, but in other words, of Muslim ethnicity?

18 A. I am of Islamic faith.

19 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, before we deal with the matters that you are going to

20 testify about, can I just deal with the documents that you have seen

21 before coming to court?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I think that you arrived in The Hague not last weekend but the

24 weekend before?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And were you given an opportunity on Sunday over a week ago to

2 look at the B/C/S translations of the statements that you had made to the

3 Office of the Prosecutor?

4 A. Yes, I was allowed to look at them.

5 Q. However, was last Sunday the last time that you looked -- read

6 through those statements?

7 A. Yes, it was.

8 Q. In addition, did you look again at some of the documents you had

9 looked at when you made your second statement?

10 A. Yes, I did look at them.

11 Q. And is this the situation that the information that you provided

12 in your statements is now given from memory of the events and meetings?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At the time, however, did you make notes of meetings that you

15 attended?

16 A. I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand your question.

17 Q. If you attended a meeting, would you make a note as to what

18 happened at the meeting? I'm talking about 1992.

19 A. I did make notes sometime ago regarding all the meetings that I

20 had in the course of 1992, and I made those notes in a diary in which I

21 noted all the meetings that I had until the 26th of February, 1993, when I

22 left Banja Luka.

23 Q. Do you still have a copy of that diary?

24 A. I don't have that diary because maybe in January, 1993 already, I

25 destroyed it. I burned it because I was afraid to keep it among my

1 documents because in it all the meetings were chronologically listed,

2 meetings with certain people that I was in contact with, and I think had I

3 succeeded in keeping that diary, it would have been much easier for

4 everyone here present in the courtroom, but out of fear, I had to set fire

5 to it and destroy it.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Dzonlic. Now, Mr. Dzonlic, you told the

7 Court that you left Banja Luka in February of 1993. For how long before

8 that had you lived in Banja Luka?

9 A. I lived in Banja Luka since my birth, the 30th of October, 1959.

10 That it means for 30 years.

11 Q. I'm going to ask you, please, to have a look at a map of a town

12 plan of Banja Luka, which is Exhibit P2.

13 MS. KORNER: And I wonder if it could be placed on the ELMO? Your

14 Honour I think it may be better if he has a clean copy because that has

15 quite a lot of annotations on it. Sorry. Your Honour, what we are now

16 showing him is P2.1. It's a slightly different version.

17 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, could you indicate to the Court whereabouts you

18 lived, by pointing on the plan you see next to you? Mr. Dzonlic, if you

19 turn to the right --

20 A. [Indicates] I lived in Banja Luka, in the district called Hiseta,

21 in Djure Djakovica Street which can be seen here on the map, Hiseta.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I suggest straight away that he be given a pen,

23 possibly in read.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, microphone.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The usher please give him, give witness a pen in

1 red, red pen, and he will kindly circle the area where he used to live or

2 the area he is indicating to us.

3 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and could you kindly put your initials against

5 that circle?

6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

8 MS. KORNER:

9 Q. Before we remove the map from you, Mr. Dzonlic, was there a mosque

10 near where you lived?

11 A. Yes. In the immediate vicinity, there was a mosque.

12 Q. Did it have a name?

13 A. We called it Potpecinska Mosque. Its real name I think was the

14 Sultan Mosque, but we called it the Potpecinska. That was the commonly

15 used name for that mosque.

16 Q. Could you indicate to us on the map where that was situated?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Put a star this time, please, or a cross.

19 THE WITNESS: [marks]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's enough. Thank you.

21 MS. KORNER:

22 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Dzonlic.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as that's another version of the map,

24 could that be marked P2.2?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Ms. Korner.

1 MS. KORNER: And I'd ask that that be admitted. Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

3 MS. KORNER:

4 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, can you tell us what your profession was?

5 A. Just now I'm adviser to the secretary of the government of the

6 Federation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, but otherwise, I am a former attorney.

7 Prior to leaving Banja Luka I was an attorney at law.

8 Q. When did you qualify as an attorney?

9 A. In 1989, I passed my bar examination.

10 Q. From 1990 -- I'm sorry, from 1990, were you in private practice in

11 Banja Luka?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And what sort of work did you specialise in?

14 A. Most of my cases or 80 per cent of my cases had to do with

15 property litigations and 20 per cent were criminal law cases.

16 Q. As with most males in the former Yugoslavia or if not all, did you

17 do military service in 1986?

18 A. I did my military service in the former JNA, yes.

19 Q. Now, did you join the SDA political party?

20 A. Yes, I did join.

21 Q. And when did you join?

22 A. I think it was -- I don't know the exact date but prior to the

23 first multi-party elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1990.

24 Q. And did you become a member of the SDA executive board in Banja

25 Luka?

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1 A. Yes, I did. I became a member of the executive board of the SDA

2 for Banja Luka.

3 Q. Did you yourself stand for election to either the Municipal

4 Assembly or the Assembly of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. I never was a candidate for state authorities either at the

6 municipal or the republic level. I was only a member of the executive

7 board of the SDA for Banja Luka.

8 Q. And just, if we finish the list of your appointments, did you

9 become, after your departure from Banja Luka, a member of the -- what was

10 called the Banja Luka War Presidency, which was made up of Muslim and

11 Croat persons?

12 A. Yes. I was a member of the War Presidency of Banja Luka

13 municipality, headquartered in Sanica, Travnik and Sanski Most.

14 Q. And then, I think, you were also for a short period of time a

15 Judge of the District Military Court in Travnik?

16 A. Yes, I worked there from the 30th of March, 1993, until the 30th

17 of September, 1993, as judge of the District Military Court of Travnik

18 district.

19 Q. And finally, between October, 1993 and December, 1995, did you

20 become the secretary of the Assembly of the Banja Luka district with its

21 seat in Travnik?

22 A. Yes, I was secretary of the Assembly of the Banja Luka district,

23 provisionally based in Travnik, right up until the signing of the Dayton

24 Accords.

25 Q. Now, I want to go back to the events of 1992. First of all, did

1 you know Radoslav Brdjanin?

2 A. Personally, I didn't know him but I would see him and I could say

3 that I know him.

4 Q. Can you tell us where you saw him?

5 A. I would see him on television and I would also see him in person

6 in the municipal hall of Banja Luka municipality, in the cultural centre

7 building, and I would most frequently see him in that building where the

8 official premises of the SDS were situated. SDA also had its official

9 offices in that same building for a time. That is the cultural centre in

10 Banja Luka.

11 Q. In what capacity did you first become aware of him? In other

12 words, what position, as far as you were aware, did he hold?

13 A. I attended assembly meetings and Mr. Brdjanin at the time was a

14 deputy in the Republican Assembly of the then Socialist Republic of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was a deputy representing the SDS and I knew that

16 he was a member of the republican parliament in Sarajevo.

17 Q. You say that he was a deputy representing the SDS. Do you know

18 for which area?

19 A. For the area of Banja Luka, for the Banja Luka region, on behalf

20 of the region of Banja Luka. I think that he was on the SDS candidates

21 list on behalf of Banja Luka municipality.

22 Q. Can you tell us where Celinac is?

23 A. Celinac is -- is it east Banja Luka? Towards Kotor Varos. It's a

24 small town some 15 or 20 kilometres from Banja Luka along the Vrbana

25 River.

1 Q. Do you know whether or not Celinac came within the Banja Luka

2 region?

3 A. Yes. Celinac is part of the Banja Luka region.

4 Q. Now, you told us that you attended assembly meetings at which

5 Mr. Brdjanin was present. Were those assembly meetings -- I'm sorry,

6 where were those assembly meetings? In Banja Luka or elsewhere?

7 A. Those meetings were held in the large hall in Banja Luka, in the

8 cultural centre there.

9 Q. So you're talking, are you, about municipal assembly meetings?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know in what capacity Mr. Brdjanin attended those meetings?

12 A. I don't know exactly in which capacity, but as far as I know,

13 republican deputies were duty-bound to attend municipal assembly meetings

14 of the territory from which they came. In this particular case, as he

15 came from the territory of Banja Luka municipality, it was his duty as a

16 republican parliament member to observe and monitor the work of the

17 municipal assembly.

18 Q. Did you become aware of an organisation called the Association of

19 Municipalities of the Bosnia Krajina?

20 A. I heard of that organisation, the Community of Municipalities of

21 Bosanska Krajina, yes.

22 Q. Did you become aware of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of

23 Krajina, as it was called?

24 A. Yes, I heard of it.

25 Q. Do you know who the president of the assembly was?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever become aware of any connection between Mr. Brdjanin

3 and that assembly?

4 A. Officially, no, but I heard, and there was talk that he too was in

5 that Assembly of the Autonomous Region of the Community of Municipalities

6 of Krajina, but officially I never learned that.

7 Q. Now, you've told us that you saw Mr. Brdjanin on the television or

8 heard him on the radio. When did you first hear him on the radio?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object. He didn't say that he ever

10 heard him on the radio. His statements was that he saw him on television

11 and in person. That's what the transcript will reveal.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you ought to rephrase your question,

13 Ms. Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I was looking for it in the transcript.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: He did mention TV, actually.

16 MS. KORNER:

17 Q. Let's start -- well, I should ask you: Did you ever hear him on

18 the radio?

19 A. Yes, I did hear him.

20 Q. When did you first become aware of him on the radio?

21 A. Maybe towards the end of 1991, and the beginning of 1992.

22 Q. What about on television?

23 A. I saw him on television earlier on too, because the parliament of

24 the Assembly of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

25 constituted after the first elections in 1990. And I saw him, I can't

1 give you a precise date, but given that whenever there was an assembly

2 meeting, I would see him too because I would follow the sessions of the

3 assembly and I would see him too.

4 Q. Can you tell us the kind of things that Mr. Brdjanin was saying,

5 first of all, on the radio, at the end of 1991?

6 A. No, I couldn't tell you that right now. I couldn't tell you

7 precisely what he was saying towards the end of 1991. What I know he

8 said, whether it was in 1991 or 1992, I'm not sure, but I know what he

9 would say on the radio, but whether it was in 1991 or at the beginning of

10 1992, I can say what I heard he said on the radio, but whether it was in

11 1991 or in 1992, I don't know exactly right now, but I do know that he

12 said that --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, I think the witness has said that he can

14 only say what he heard that Mr. Brdjanin had said on the radio. I think

15 that's getting a little bit far afield. He was asked what he himself

16 heard and now he's apparently saying that he can't say that he himself

17 heard anything but only what someone else told him that they had heard.

18 And I object to that.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's not my understanding.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not my understanding either. Mr. Dzonlic,

21 the question you have been asked and which you are requested to answer is,

22 you have already stated that you heard Mr. Brdjanin make statements on the

23 radio and on TV. Now you're being asked precisely, with reference to a

24 particular time, what these statements were, and you are answering that

25 you know what the statements were and you can tell us about them but not

1 with a particular reference to end of 1991, or beginning of 1992. Is that

2 correct?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. I didn't say

4 that I had heard someone telling me this. I personally heard what

5 Mr. Brdjanin said. I simply can't say whether it was in 1991 or in 1992.

6 I can't be precise.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps now you can answer the question that was

8 put to you and tell us what you personally heard Mr. Brdjanin say on --

9 state on the radio any time it may have been.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the radio, Mr. Brdjanin, and not

11 only on one occasion but on several occasions, said -- he called the

12 Muslims balijas. "They don't have to prepare food for the winter, they

13 don't have to prepare sauerkraut and prepare food for the winter because

14 they are not going to remain here." We don't need wood for the winter for

15 heating because we wouldn't be there. He said that in the territory of

16 Banja Luka, sometimes he would say 3 per cent, sometimes he would say 5

17 per cent, of Muslims can remain in this territory. He would say that,

18 "Wherever there is a Serb grave, that is Serb land," and he said that we

19 were breathing Serbian air. I heard this personally on the radio. For a

20 certain time, there were even comments in the daily news papers in Banja

21 Luka in Glas, and they commented on his statements in which he would say

22 that in the territory of Banja Luka, a maximum of 5 per cent of Muslims

23 could remain. He called us Muslims and that is the derogative term for --

24 he called us balijas and that is a derogatory term for Muslims. He said

25 that if his father, who is over 80 years old could work in the garden,

1 then balijas could also work, they could also do work obligations and

2 carry out hard work. I can't remember what else he said at the -- at this

3 moment.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. What about on television? What were his speeches like or what was

6 he saying on television?

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm wondering if this could be put in

8 a time context again, Your Honour, so that we know that it's within the

9 indictment?

10 MS. KORNER:

11 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, the -- you've told us that you became aware of

12 Mr. Brdjanin making speeches towards the end of 1991 for the first time.

13 When dealing with appearances on television, what period of time was that?

14 A. I think that was the first time -- that the first time he appeared

15 on television was in 1991 and these speeches which I have mentioned now,

16 they were, I think, in 1992.

17 Q. Appreciating it's a long time ago, when you say 1991, what period

18 of the year, roughly, did these speeches start?

19 A. Perhaps the last quarter of the year, in -- from September until

20 the end of the year.

21 Q. The speeches that you have described, the types of things, were

22 those said on radio and on television or more on one than the other?

23 A. More on the radio, on the radio. And as far as I can remember, on

24 television, he spoke about the formation of the Assembly of the Serbian

25 People, about the necessity to form an Assembly of the Serbian People, and

1 the insulting remarks which he made with regard to Bosniaks were made over

2 the radio.

3 Q. Was anything said about those of Croat ethnicity?

4 A. He called the Croats Ustashas, he called them Ustashas. In fact,

5 he would always call them Ustashas, because in historical terms, the

6 Ustasha had inflicted a lot of harm on the Serbs and he would always

7 emphasise this and call all the Croats Ustashas, probably in order to

8 incite national consciousness among all the other Serbs so he also called

9 them -- used a derogative term for the Croats. He called them Ustashas.

10 He never even called them Croats.

11 Q. What effect did those speeches, things said by Mr. Brdjanin, have

12 on you?

13 A. It was terrible. It was awful. I -- at the beginning I

14 personally could not understand it, but this provoked great fear, not only

15 in myself but in others too, in all people. At the beginning, the people

16 were accepting this but they were uncertain about this, but then they all

17 became very worried because this was a cause of great fear and uncertainty

18 among all the citizens who were of non-Serb nationality in Banja Luka.

19 Q. Apart from Mr. Brdjanin, were you aware of any other political

20 figures saying things like that? Like the matters you've quoted?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Could you give us some examples?

23 A. I know that Andjelko Grahovac said that -- and I'm quoting him,

24 "We don't need workers. We need warriors." And on this basis, I think

25 that he expelled 90 -- dismissed 90 per cent of people from their jobs. I

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1 don't know whether the name of the company is Universal, I can't

2 remember. He also said that the Croats were Ustashas. Every time he was

3 on the radio he would say that the Croats were Ustashas, but I can

4 remember his statement, "We don't need workers. We need warriors."

5 Q. Can you just tell us who was Mr. Grahovac?

6 A. Mr. Grahovac was the director of the firm which I think is called

7 Universal, but he is a neighbour of mine with whom I grew up until the age

8 of 30. He lived three floors above me. And there is one piece of

9 information about him which is very interesting. His brother, Rade,

10 committed suicide because he couldn't bear what his brother was doing and

11 the side his brother had moved to. He killed himself. He couldn't bear

12 this. And a second thing is that that Andjelko Grahovac married a Muslim

13 woman, who was married to my colleague and neighbour Almir Smajic.

14 Andjelko Grahovac was their best man and one year later, Aida, his wife,

15 divorced her former husband, Almir Smajic, and he married Aida.

16 Q. Can I stop you? It's my fault entirely, Mr. Dzonlic. What I

17 wanted to know is, did he have any -- did Mr. Grahovac have any political

18 position?

19 A. I think that he was a member of the core leadership of the SDS in

20 Banja Luka. The municipal board of the SDS in Banja Luka. And he was

21 appointed with this function as director of Universal and the director of

22 the football club Borac Banja Luka.

23 Q. Just very briefly, please, in 1992, were firms state-owned or

24 privately owned or a mixture of the two?

25 A. They were state-owned, state-owned. It was still a socialist

1 system and state-owned.

2 Q. You've told us about Mr. Grahovac, was there any other politician

3 or somebody in political life whose speeches or words you remember?

4 A. I remember the words of the president of the SDS, in the municipal

5 organisation of the SDS in Banja Luka, Vukic, I don't know his real name.

6 I can't tell you his real name now. He was a doctor and he worked in the

7 clinical centre in Banja Luka. I know that he said that "Balinkas and

8 Turkish women will never give birth again in the hospital, in the clinical

9 centre."

10 Q. Now, I want to move -- I'm sorry, before I do that, anybody else

11 that you can now remember who -- in particular, who was making speeches

12 like this?

13 A. I can't remember anyone else now.

14 Q. In that case, I want to move, please, to another topic. The topic

15 of mobilisation. After the war with Croatia started, in June, 1991, was

16 there a mobilisation call in September of that year?

17 A. Yes, there was.

18 Q. Who issued that mobilisation call?

19 A. There was a public call-up through the media, through the radio in

20 Banja Luka, and through announcements in the municipal, daily bulletin

21 called Glas. There was a general call-up, a general mobilisation which

22 had been issued. And it was considered that everyone was being called up

23 for mobilisation on this basis and later there were individual call-ups

24 for each conscript from the municipal secretariat for the Defence, the

25 national defence of Banja Luka.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: [Previous translation continues]... the answer is

2 not responsive at all. The question was, "Who issued the mobilisation

3 call?"

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, perhaps Mr. Dzonlic, you would direct your

5 attention to answering the question, the whole question and nothing but

6 the question, and in fact, Mr. Ackerman is partly right. You have not

7 given us the proper answer to the question that was put to you by

8 Ms. Korner. Could you answer that question now, please? Are you in a

9 position to tell us who --

10 MS. KORNER: Perhaps I can --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You can put a direct question.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there is also an issue of how is a

13 mobilisation call in 1991 relevant to an April through December, 1992,

14 indictment? Ms. Korner may have an argument that it is but I can't see it

15 and I would object on that basis also.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But that objection, and as far as it is based on

17 what you've just stated is dismissed. Ms. Korner can definitely -- either

18 rephrase the question or even put a direct question, because this should

19 not be controversial in any case.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the reason I'm asking is because it's

21 going to lead into the next aspect of the case.

22 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, can I just change the question? Who had the

23 authority to issue a call for mobilisation?

24 A. The relevant Municipal Secretariat for National Defence proclaimed

25 the mobilisation and sent the call-up.

1 Q. In September of 1991, who actually issued the call for

2 mobilisation?

3 A. The Municipal Secretariats for National Defence did this.

4 Q. Now, did those of Muslim ethnicity respond to the mobilisation

5 call?

6 A. Some of them did respond but most of them didn't. Most of them

7 didn't respond to the mobilisation call.

8 Q. What about Croats? Bosnian Croats?

9 A. The Croats also didn't respond to the mobilisation call.

10 Q. Those who failed to respond, were any proceedings, any

11 proceedings, taken against them?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who took those proceedings against them?

14 A. The proceedings were instituted, it depended on the persons or the

15 people who were in question. At the time, if a Croatian citizen did not

16 respond to the mobilisation call, then against such a citizen, proceedings

17 would be instituted before a military court; whereas, for Bosnia citizens,

18 a misdemeanour case would be instituted in front of the municipal court

19 for misdemeanours in Banja Luka at the proposal of the Secretariat for

20 National Defence, who would submit to the relevant courts a request to

21 institute proceedings.

22 Q. What about those of Serb ethnicity who did not respond?

23 A. As far as I know, not a single Serbian citizen was subjected to

24 proceedings of any kind.

25 Q. Now, did you play any part in the legal proceedings taken at that

1 stage against those of either Croat or Bosniak ethnicity?

2 A. Yes. I defended quite a few of these people, as a lawyer.

3 Q. In 199 -- were these proceedings taken in 1991 after September?

4 A. Yes, they were.

5 Q. And what was the result of those proceedings in cases in which you

6 acted?

7 A. In all the cases or in the majority of cases in fact, I raised

8 several objections, depending on the case, but the final outcome of these

9 cases was usually, as far as Bosniaks are concerned, who were tried at the

10 misdemeanour court, they would be fined or they would be sent to prison.

11 In the cases where I defended certain Croats before the military court,

12 the proceedings were not brought to an end and I don't know what happened

13 to them, not completely. I know that I appealed to the council in these

14 proceedings against certain men. I appealed against a judgement for

15 certain men. And I filed this appeal with the high courts. I don't know

16 what happened to them in the end because I left Banja Luka so I don't know

17 how these cases were finally concluded.

18 Q. Now, once the conflict broke out in Bosnia, were there further

19 mobilisation calls issued?

20 A. Yes, there were.

21 Q. Who issued that call for -- or those calls for mobilisation and

22 when was the first, if you can recall?

23 A. The call was issued by the Municipal Secretariat for National

24 Defence but I can't remember the date when the first one was issued.

25 Perhaps if I could look through my cases, I could find it out, but at the

1 moment, I can't tell you.

2 Q. All right. Did Bosniaks respond to that mobilisation call in

3 Banja Luka?

4 A. Most of them did not respond. Some Bosniaks did, those who

5 received the call-up at their place of work, they responded to the

6 mobilisation.

7 Q. And what happened to those who failed to respond?

8 A. Those who failed to respond to the call-up for mobilisation would

9 very quickly lose the right to work and after that, they would lose their

10 entitlement to an apartment, and they had no other choice but to leave

11 Banja Luka. And there were also some who were beaten up because they

12 failed to respond to the mobilisation call.

13 Q. Was the -- was housing and employment connected in some fashion?

14 A. If someone lost his job, then his company would immediately

15 deprive him of the right to an apartment, because the apartment was owned

16 by the company that had given that apartment to the worker to use. So

17 once he lost his job and was dismissed, he lost his employment, then the

18 company in which he worked would deprive him of his right to an apartment

19 so there was a link between employment and housing.

20 Q. Again, did you act for people who failed to respond to the

21 mobilisation call?

22 A. Yes, I did represent them.

23 Q. Just Bosniaks or Croats as well?

24 A. Both Croats and Bosniaks.

25 Q. At which court did the Bosniaks and Croats appear?

1 A. It depended on the type of case. They would appear at the

2 Municipal Magistrate's Court in Banja Luka, at the Military Court in Banja

3 Luka. This court was called the Military Court of Zagreb based in Banja

4 Luka. And at the higher court in Banja Luka, that is the Court of

5 Associated Labour, which dealt with the legal employment issues. And

6 sometimes I also wrote appeals to the supreme military court in Pale. So

7 I would appeal certain cases at that level.

8 Q. Now, you told us that in 1991, the Croats had gone before the

9 military court and the Bosniaks before the civil court. In the 1992

10 proceedings, was there a distinction between Croats and Muslims as there

11 had been in 1991?

12 A. Yes, there was a distinction. But now things changed. It was the

13 Bosniaks now who were sent to the military courts and the Croats to the

14 civil courts, the magistrate courts.

15 Q. And what was the difference between the military court and the

16 civil court, in terms of penalty?

17 A. The penalty in the civil courts was in the form of a fine or a

18 prison sentence up to 60 days; whereas, in military courts, the penalty

19 could be up to ten years for failure to respond to a mobilisation

20 call-up. I think it's -- it was stipulated up to ten years. I'm not

21 quite sure of that because it was a long time ago, but in any event, the

22 penalties in the civil courts was a fine and a sentence up to 60 days;

23 whereas, in the military courts, the envisaged penalty was up to ten years

24 in prison.

25 Q. The people who you represented at the military court, what was the

1 average type of sentence that they were receiving, if you can remember?

2 A. I don't know, as I have said already, what finally came of all

3 those cases because I had to leave Banja Luka, but I do know what happened

4 with some cases, because I did represent people at the military court and

5 they were sentenced between 4 and 12 years of imprisonment.

6 Q. In view, as a lawyer practising in Banja Luka in that in 1992, was

7 the mobilisation order a legally issued order?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object that he's not been qualified

9 to -- as a legal expert to give an answer to that. That's a fairly

10 sophisticated legal question.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, why are you asking this question?

12 What's the relevance to the rest of your examination-in-chief? Or what

13 are you trying to --

14 MS. KORNER: If Your Honour looks at page --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that in his statement there is a substantial

16 part in which he more or less gives us his personal opinion as a lawyer on

17 the legality or -- of several decision that is were actually taken. Some

18 of which are very much constitutional matters, constitutional law

19 matters. I don't know what's the utility of having a witness telling us

20 whether a particular decision was considered to be legal or not. I can

21 see some relevance, mind you, but I would like to hear you tell me what is

22 precisely what you're after.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, one of the allegations in the indictment

24 is a denial of fundamental human rights. The evidence that Mr. Dzonlic is

25 giving about the sentences that were being meted out by this court as a

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1 result of a failure to respond to a mobilisation, that we submit was in

2 the circumstances, certainly from the legal -- the lawyer's point of view,

3 an illegal one, is a matter that Your Honours should be considering.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps, why don't you rephrase the question and ask

5 him whether at any time he, as a lawyer, contested the legality of -- and

6 we leave it at that? Because, I mean, I don't fancy being told by the

7 witness for sure whether this was a legal decision or not. I think we

8 could live with having it rephrased.

9 MS. KORNER: I take Your Honour's suggestion.

10 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, did you at any stage contest for your clients the

11 legality of the order to respond to mobilisation?

12 A. Yes. That was my grounds for appeal, for my objections and the

13 appeal, because the government of the Socialist Republic of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina had passed a decision that only the Ministry of Defence

15 of Bosnia-Herzegovina was competent to proclaim a mobilisation, and not

16 the municipal secretariats. And that was my first and only grounds for

17 challenging the Court decisions whereby my clients were found to be

18 guilty.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you can ask him now whether he maintains

20 that position today, after ten years, or whether he himself has doubts

21 about the legal stand taken by him in defence of his clients at the time.

22 MS. KORNER:

23 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, did you hear His Honour's question?

24 A. Yes, I heard it. I fully abide by that position even now.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: But does -- you are a lawyer too, sometimes in

1 defending our clients, we do not necessarily believe in what we state, by

2 way of defence. So you stand by that position even now -- today, ten

3 years after?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to this day, yes.

5 MS. KORNER:

6 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, then, and just to complete that, you still have in

7 your possession a number of files relating to clients of yours in 1992; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes, I do have them in my possession. That is correct.

10 Q. But you have been unable to find these clients in order to obtain

11 their permission to release them?

12 A. I was not able to find those clients, but I do know that when

13 those clients came to see me in 1992, each of them said that they wanted

14 me to pursue the matter right up to some international court, that is what

15 they said.

16 Q. Can we turn next, please, then, to the events in April and May of

17 1992? Do you recall an organisation calling itself the SOS arriving in

18 Banja Luka?

19 A. I think it was for Bajram in 1992. I cannot tell you exactly

20 which month or date that was but I know that it was Bajram in 1992.

21 Q. When was the first -- or how was it you first became aware of the

22 presence of this organisation?

23 A. One morning we woke up and on the radio it was stated that the SOS

24 had taken over power in Banja Luka. That was the first time I heard of

25 SOS. I'd never heard of it before, nor did I know what it meant. They

1 said the Serbian defence forces are taking over power in Banja Luka.

2 Q. What physical effect did that have any -- did that have, if any,

3 on, for example, movement in Banja Luka?

4 A. Movement was unimpeded, there was no prohibition on movement.

5 However, virtually at every major crossroads and at every more important

6 building in Banja Luka, there were guards and barricades, bunkers made out

7 of sand. So that even this in itself was sufficient to impair the freedom

8 of movement of people, but officially it was not prohibited, as far as I

9 can remember. Nobody said that we were not allowed to move around. But

10 they gained control of all the more important facilities, ranging from

11 roads to the economic facilities, the Privredna Banka, the post office and

12 so on.

13 Q. Did you see any of the members of this so-called organisation, the

14 SOS?

15 A. I did, in the street, yes.

16 Q. How were they dressed?

17 A. Most of them were wearing military uniforms, but there were some

18 also wearing camouflage military uniforms, others camouflage police

19 uniforms.

20 Q. What was the difference between military camouflage uniform and

21 police camouflage uniform?

22 A. The military camouflage uniforms are greyish olive, combined with

23 brown. And the police are more bluish; they are camouflage, but the

24 dominant colour is blue. That is what I inferred because the police

25 always wore blue uniforms and the military olive-grey uniforms. That is

1 how I knew which was which.

2 Q. When you saw the -- these members of the SOS, where did you

3 actually see them? I mean, you said in the street, but anywhere in

4 particular?

5 A. I saw them down the road in which I live. When you go to the main

6 street, Titova Street, which is the main street in Banja Luka at the

7 crossroads, there was a police car. It was parked in the middle of the

8 intersection of. Then I went on to towards the Privredna Banka on the

9 bulevar in the centre of town. I saw them next to the bank. A bunker was

10 made out of sand and they were there too and also on the bank building

11 itself. I saw them next to the post office. That is where I passed by

12 and where I saw them.

13 Q. Did you see any members of the regular police?

14 A. I did. I said as soon as I left my street and got to the main

15 street at the crossroads, there was the regular police, the police car

16 with the word "Milicija" written on it. This was a regular police car.

17 Q. Did members of the regular police, that you ever saw, make any

18 attempt to remove the barricades?

19 A. There was no barricade there. They were standing in the middle of

20 the intersection as some sort of a warning, indicating that something was

21 going on further down the road. There was no barricade there.

22 Q. I'm sorry, it's my fault. You're quite right, Mr. Dzonlic. You

23 said the word "bunker," that was further down the road, a bunker made out

24 of sand near the bank.

25 A. Down the road, as you're going to the centre of the city, there

1 was the Privredna Banka and there was this what I call a bunker, and next

2 to the bunker were probably these SOS members.

3 Q. All right. Did you ever see members of the regular JNA dealing

4 with any of these SOS forces?

5 A. At the time, I thought that they were members of the regular army,

6 because I was not aware of the existence of this SOS because they were

7 wearing the uniforms of the former JNA. So I saw them as being regular

8 JNA members. That was my opinion at the time.

9 Q. Were you aware of the Banja Luka Corps at that stage in 1992?

10 A. Yes, yes. I did know that the Banja Luka Corps existed.

11 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who were wearing this uniform,

12 this camouflage uniform?

13 A. No, I didn't recognise anyone.

14 Q. During this period, were people able to leave Banja Luka?

15 A. At the time, no one could leave. I didn't see it but I know that

16 there was -- it was said that Banja Luka was blocked, that is, all entry

17 and exit points were blocked, and that no one could enter or leave Banja

18 Luka.

19 Q. Now, for how long did this SOS force, whatever it may have been,

20 remain in Banja Luka?

21 A. I think not for long. Maybe a couple of days. Maybe a couple of

22 days. And then allegedly the legal authorities took over control. It may

23 have lasted five or six days. I cannot be specific but I know it didn't

24 last long. For a few days only.

25 Q. And now I want to move to a different topic. Have you heard the

1 expression "Crisis Staff"?

2 A. Yes, I have heard of the expression "Crisis Staff."

3 Q. When was the first time in 1992 that you heard the expression

4 "Crisis Staff," roughly?

5 A. I think it was in May, shall we say? May, month of May.

6 Q. And how did you become aware of such a thing?

7 A. There was stories -- there were stories in Banja Luka about the

8 Crisis Staff, and also individuals who brought me decisions, that is on

9 the termination of employment, and they brought a copy of that decision,

10 and it said, "Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina," and that

11 is how I officially saw that the Crisis Staff existed. That is, on the

12 basis of the documents and the decisions my clients brought with them to

13 my office, sometimes they had these decisions with the heading, "Crisis

14 Staff."

15 Q. Before your clients brought you a copy of these decisions, and

16 I'll deal with that in a moment, had you heard anything about the

17 existence of the Crisis Staff in the media?

18 A. I think I did, but I'm not quite sure. I think I did. I think

19 that the media also referred to the Crisis Staff. I cannot be quite

20 explicit, but I think I did.

21 Q. Did you become aware of who was in charge of this Crisis Staff?

22 A. I learnt that the main person in the Crisis Staff was Radoslav

23 Brdjanin.

24 Q. And how did you learn that? In other words, from official

25 announcements or through people telling you?

1 A. From people telling me, but I also saw these decisions of the

2 Crisis Staff which he had signed as the President of the Crisis Staff, and

3 his name Radoslav Brdjanin.

4 Q. Just before -- I'm sorry, I'll rephrase that. The Crisis Staff

5 that was headed by Radoslav Brdjanin was the Crisis Staff for what? In

6 other words, what area?

7 A. The Crisis Staff was responsible for all walks of life, not just

8 one aspect but for life as a whole in the territory of Bosanska Krajina,

9 for all segments of life.

10 Q. Could you just elaborate for a moment on that? When you say, "All

11 segments of life," what do you mean?

12 A. Ranging from the economy, information, agriculture, the use of

13 power, electricity, education, culture, so the Crisis Staff took over all

14 control over all aspects of life.

15 Q. Before 1992, had you ever heard the expression "Crisis Staff"

16 before?

17 A. I had heard of the expression "Crisis Staff," the legal

18 expression. And for me, this meant the formation of certain Crisis Staffs

19 during emergency situations, floods, fires, earthquakes, that is what the

20 term "Crisis Staff" meant to me.

21 Q. And -- well first of all, let's deal with, you say fire or

22 earthquake. Had there been a Crisis Staff in Banja Luka at a period

23 before 1992?

24 A. Yes, there was. I remember my father talking about it. There was

25 in Banja Luka a tragic, large scale earthquake in 1969 and that is when a

1 municipal Crisis Staff was formed, because this was an emergency and it

2 was a very powerful and destructive earthquake and a municipal Crisis

3 Staff was formed, and I know that, though I was a little boy at the time,

4 but I know my father talking about the formation of a crisis staff in

5 those days.

6 Q. And then finally, before what I anticipate will be the break, from

7 which walks of life would the Crisis Staff be formed? In other words,

8 where would the members of the Crisis Staff come from?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I think that's improper, where

10 the members would come from. We are talking about -- this case is about

11 the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Does he know where

12 the members did come from?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But that would be the next question because more or

14 less what I can gather from the sequence of questions that Ms. Korner is

15 putting to the witness, she is intending to draw a distinction between

16 previous existing Crisis Staffs and this particular Crisis Staff which was

17 created for the purpose related to this case, so more or less whether, in

18 other words, for this particular crisis period, a novel model of Crisis

19 Staff was created. Am I right, Ms. Korner?

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what I'm trying to get at is there was a

21 previous Crisis Staff and the composition of the Crisis Staff is one that

22 is regulated, as I understand the matter, and this witness is in a

23 position to tell us about it.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it is relevant, Mr. Ackerman.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he's talking about a municipal Crisis

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1 Staff in 1969, that -- with when there was an earthquake that was formed

2 under a completely different set of laws than what we are doing now.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see if he can answer the question. He's a

4 lawyer, after all.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: If he knows whether the composition of a regular

7 Crisis Staff is regulated or not, he can tell us. Yes, Mr. Dzonlic,

8 please, could you answer the question?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, the previous

10 Crisis Staff during the earthquake and before, until the beginning of this

11 war that we had, I said that Crisis Staffs are formed in certain emergency

12 situations. For Banja Luka specifically, when a municipal Crisis Staff

13 was formed at the time of the big tragedy of the earthquake, the Crisis

14 Staff was headed by the town mayor, ex officio, as the town mayor, and I

15 think the president of the executive council or the municipal government,

16 and certain representatives of the various secretariats and also

17 representatives of the civil defence, and that is how the Crisis Staff was

18 formed. In view of the fact that this was a large-scale disaster, the

19 Crisis Staff that was formed during the earthquake included

20 representatives of republican bodies, from Sarajevo, because the damage

21 was vast and the government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina probably

22 financed some of the aid. Then there were representatives of the

23 authorities from Sarajevo present as well.

24 MS. KORNER:

25 Q. Just one final question, then. You've mentioned the mayor, the

1 town mayor. Is that the same position as president of the municipal

2 assembly or is that a separate position?

3 A. It is the same position. What I meant was the president of the

4 municipal assembly.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, would that be a convenient moment?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we will break now for half an hour. We will

7 resume at 1.00 sharp. Thank you.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated. Before the witness comes in, I

11 know that this morning I was handed the response of the Prosecution to the

12 motion by Defence teams for Biljana Plavsic and Krajisnik for the

13 disclosure of documents in this case. I haven't come across any response

14 from either you, Mr. Ackerman, or you, Madam Fauveau. Should I expect a

15 response or can we go ahead? Go ahead, in other words, start --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: You should not wait for a response, Your Honour. I

17 think that issue is pretty well --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: -- litigated in this Tribunal and I think the law

20 is fairly clear as to how you should proceed. I don't see that it makes

21 any difference to me. My view is they should have everything. There is

22 an affirmative obligation for them to seek it out and I think they should

23 have it. Under the same kind of protection that we have it.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously. Madam Fauveau?

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't object to this

1 request. As far as I'm concerned, as far as General Talic's Defence is

2 concerned, all the documents and all the records can be forwarded to them.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can start working on that. The witness can be

4 admitted now.

5 You may sit down. Thank you.

6 One further thing, Mr. Ackerman, and Madam Fauveau, this morning

7 also I was handed a motion by the Prosecution for further protective

8 measures. I suppose you are -- you have received that as well?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I've received it and I have no

10 objections to it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and I'm putting the question to you because we

12 can proceed very quickly on it. I don't think there is any controversy or

13 there shouldn't be any controversy. Yes, Madam Fauveau?

14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, we have no objections,

15 Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So the decision will be handed in due course fairly

17 quickly with the understanding that your request or your motion will be

18 acceded to.

19 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm most grateful for that

20 indication. In respect of the witnesses listed on the list for Sanski

21 Most, which are Rule 92, we are going through the statements at the moment

22 to see if there anything that we want to excise and we will then supply to

23 the Chamber the English and the attested to B/C/S versions.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So welcome back, Mr. Dzonlic.

25 The Prosecutor will continue with her examination-in-chief. Ms. Korner.

1 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, you've told us about the Crisis Staff that was headed

3 by Mr. Brdjanin. Did you hear ever of another Crisis Staff situated in

4 Banja Luka itself? I'm sorry, it's a bad question. Of another Crisis

5 Staff in Banja Luka?

6 A. Yes, I did. I heard of the municipal Crisis Staff in Banja Luka.

7 Q. And were you aware who was the head of that municipal Crisis

8 Staff?

9 A. I officially had no information on this but I assumed that the

10 president of the municipal assembly, Predrag Radic was at the head of the

11 municipal Crisis Staff. This was my opinion.

12 Q. Now, you told us earlier that you had seen a copy of a Crisis

13 Staff decision which was brought to you by one of your clients, more than

14 one, I think you said.

15 A. Yes. I saw that.

16 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to look at a particular decision.

17 MS. KORNER: Which Your Honours will find in volume 2 of the Banja

18 Luka binders marked as P339. Now, Your Honour, I don't know how Your

19 Honours's dividers run, but in my version it's the fourth number 17 and

20 I'd ask that the witness -- I'm sorry, I've made a mistake. Just -- can I

21 just check that for a moment?

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, it should be 339. Can I just have

24 a look for a moment? I think that may be a -- no. It's definitely not

25 that. Your Honour, I'm so sorry, can we try 202? I'm sorry, again,

1 that's wrong.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: 202, I don't think that's the right one because 202

3 is the Security Service Centre --

4 MS. KORNER: I'm so sorry, as usual my notes --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You're not the only one, Ms. Korner, I can assure

6 you.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm so sorry. It should be Exhibit

8 255. And I know what -- I wrote down the disclosure number by mistake,

9 that's why. It's Exhibit 255 -- P255, disclosure number 3.39. That's why

10 I wrote down P339 and it's actually -- that was the disclosure number.

11 It's actually P254 -- 255.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So can we have a look at it, please? Because this

13 was not one of the documents that we had prepared.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour is quite right. I'm very sorry. Of

15 course, you will have -- but it is actually still in volume 2, if you have

16 volume 2 with you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Because we just -- that's why we had picked the

18 documents that were indicated to us so.

19 MS. KORNER: I'll try to do better.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, we can -- yes, I think we can put it on the

21 ELMO and that would make everybody's life easier. Thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if we could put the English version on

23 the ELMO and we can hand Mr. Dzonlic the B/C/S version.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Dzonlic, did you receive from one or more clients a copy

25 of this particular decision?

1 A. Yes, I received such a decision from several clients, but perhaps

2 I have the original decision. Maybe two or three original decisions of

3 this kind. But I received them from several clients.

4 Q. And I think you were able, in fact, to provide a copy to the

5 investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor who spoke to you, Kellie

6 Ward?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Now, this decision, as we can see, states that "Posts important

9 for the functioning of the economy, may only be held by personnel of

10 Serbian nationality." And goes on to state that "This refers to all

11 socially-owned enterprises, joint stock companies, state institutions,

12 public utilities and Ministries of the Interior and the army of the

13 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. These posts may not be held

14 by employees of Serbian nationality who have not confirmed by plebiscite,

15 or who in their minds have not made it ideologically clear that the

16 Serbian Democratic Party is the sole representative of the Serbian

17 people."

18 Then it gives a deadline for the 26th of June, on which the

19 presidents of the municipal Crisis Staff shall report it this Crisis

20 Staff. "Failure to implement this decision shall result in the immediate

21 dismissal of those responsible."

22 And it's signed "Radoslav Brdjanin."

23 MS. KORNER: I wonder if we could turn it over on the ELMO,

24 Mr. Usher, if that's all right, so that we could look at the B/C/S.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Will there be a question mark at some point? Is

1 this a question or is Ms. Korner just reading the document to the Chamber?

2 MS. KORNER: There will be a question but the first question is to

3 you, Mr. Ackerman. Is it accepted that this is the signature of

4 Mr. Brdjanin?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I have given you a list of the documents and I

6 can't tell you that just by looking at it. You have a list of the numbers

7 that we agree are his signature.

8 MS. KORNER:

9 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, how did -- what were the circumstances in which many

10 of the clients were bringing you a copy of this decision?

11 A. People would come to see me because they had been dismissed from

12 their work after this decision, and they would bring decisions on

13 terminating their employment in which reference was made to this

14 decision. I told each client that if it was possible for the client, to

15 provide me with this decision from its company, they should ask their

16 employer to provide them with this decision. They would then go back to

17 their company, and I don't know how they obtained this, they didn't all

18 manage to obtain the decision, but quite a few of them brought these

19 decisions to me on the basis of which their employment had been

20 terminated, and the grounds for the termination were cited as this

21 decision -- this decision was cited as the grounds for the termination of

22 their employment.

23 Q. Did they bring, you, those who could bring this decision from

24 their own firms, was it a photocopy?

25 A. They were photocopies.

1 Q. Now, the sort of people who were dismissed, first of all, what

2 ethnicity?

3 A. They were Bosniaks and Croats.

4 Q. What kind of firms or enterprises were they working for?

5 A. They were working for social companies, socially owned companies,

6 and they worked in public companies. There were colleagues of mine who

7 were judges in the municipal court and who worked in Banja Luka. After

8 this, they were dismissed from their posts as judges.

9 Q. I'll deal with the judges in a second, but the clients, the

10 non-judicial clients if I can put it that way, what sort of jobs did they

11 hold?

12 A. They were people who worked in schools, who were directors of

13 schools or teachers in schools, and there were people who worked in

14 companies. They had various jobs.

15 Q. Were all your clients directors or in some kind of managerial

16 position?

17 A. There were some who held managerial positions. Mostly they held

18 managerial positions, not directors but there were various chiefs in

19 certain parts of companies, they formed part of the leadership.

20 Q. Now, the judges that you have spoken of, what happened to judges

21 who were Bosniaks?

22 A. The judges who were Bosniaks were dismissed from their posts as

23 judges because they didn't respond to the mobilisation, and in order to be

24 appointed again by the assembly in Pale, they had to provide a certificate

25 on having responded to the mobilisation. In other words, their

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1 mobilisation was assigned to them at the court. This was their wartime

2 assignment, but as far as I can remember, they also asked for certificates

3 to show that they responded to the plebiscite of the Serbian people and

4 this was a condition for them to be reappointed as judges at the court.

5 Q. You say that the judges who were Bosniaks were dismissed. Was

6 that all Bosniak judges?

7 A. Maybe in the first wave -- they weren't all dismissed, but at the

8 end they were all dismissed. They weren't dismissed at the same time, all

9 the judges weren't dismissed at once, but within about six months, they

10 had all been dismissed. When I was in Banja Luka, I don't remember that

11 there was a Judge who was a Bosniak.

12 Q. You say they were all dismissed within about six months. What

13 period of time are we talking about?

14 A. That was from, let's say, May or June, 1992, until the end of

15 1992.

16 Q. What about those of Croat ethnicity?

17 A. They were dismissed too. I can remember only one judge in the

18 municipal court who was a Croat, and he's the only one who I remember

19 worked as a Judge, and his name is -- I can't remember right now. He was

20 there for the longest period of time as a Judge, and I know that he was

21 later dismissed too and he is now living in Croatia, on an island in

22 Croatia now because that's where he is from originally, and he's living on

23 this island now.

24 Q. Thank you. We needn't trouble with his name. What action, if

25 any, did you take when people came to you with these letters of dismissal?

1 A. First of all, we wrote an objection to the employer in accordance

2 with the legal provisions which were in force, according to which there

3 was a deadline, I think it was eight days, within which we had to make an

4 objection to the decision. Given that the employer often did not respond

5 to this objection, to this complaint, and when he did, he would just

6 confirm this first level decision on terminating employment, we would then

7 file an appeal before the court of -- the so-called Court of Associated

8 Labour, where they would deal with issues concerning employment, and its

9 headquarters was at the high court in Banja Luka, as I said earlier on.

10 On one floor there was the Court of Associated Labour and we appealed

11 against the action taken by the employer and instituted legal

12 proceedings. For a while, I waited, I waited for the court to respond to

13 the appeals that had been filed, but the court did not respond. Let's

14 say, for four or five months, they did not schedule any hearings. I wrote

15 in writing to the president of the court, and said that a hearing should

16 be scheduled, but they never scheduled a hearing for a certain issue, for

17 any of the cases, and I think that they were hindering these cases from

18 being heard.

19 Q. In normal circumstances, in other words before this period, if

20 there was an appeal against dismissal, how long would it take to be heard?

21 A. The customary time period was three months, and even that was

22 long, but if you would address the president of the court or a president

23 of the department in charge of a particular area with an official request

24 as a representative of a particular client, then he would schedule it

25 immediately. However, in these cases that did not happen.

1 Q. Did anyone for whom you acted receive a court hearing on an appeal

2 before you left Banja Luka?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Were you able to persuade any company to reinstate one of the

5 dismissed Bosnian Croats or Bosniaks?

6 A. No, it was impossible.

7 Q. I want to move now, please, to a different topic, and that is an

8 association to deal with prisoners. Were you a member of an organisation

9 called Merhamet?

10 A. I was not a member of Merhamet, but I was a member of an

11 association which dealt with human rights, the implementation of the

12 Geneva Conventions and prisoners within the territory of Bosnian Krajina,

13 which was under the patronage of Merhamet.

14 Q. Now, in 1992, did your organisation and Merhamet and other

15 organisations have a meeting?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. First, can you remember roughly when that meeting was held?

18 A. I think it was sometime in April, 1992, in the premises of the

19 Islamic Religious Community next to the destroyed Ferhadpasa Mosque in

20 Banja Luka.

21 Q. What, destroyed then or destroyed now?

22 A. It was destroyed after that. It is destroyed now. Maybe a year

23 after that it was destroyed.

24 Q. Now, can you tell us which organisations were represented at that

25 meeting?

1 A. The representatives of the Islamic Religious Community were

2 present at the meeting, representatives of the Cultural Muslim Society,

3 Preporod, or rebirth, representatives of Merhamet as a humanitarian

4 organisation of the Muslims, representatives of the Forum of Intellectuals

5 of Bosniaks of Banja Luka and representatives of the Party of Democratic

6 Action of Banja Luka.

7 Q. Can you recall who called the meeting, if not personally, which

8 organisation was responsible for calling the meeting?

9 A. I don't know exactly who gave the initiative for the meeting and

10 who was the organiser of the meeting but I can assume that it was the

11 Islamic Religious Community and the Party of Democratic Action.

12 Q. And what makes you assume that?

13 A. That is what I think because it was held in the premises of the

14 Religious Islamic Community, and I think that they were behind it.

15 Q. Now, what was the purpose of that meeting?

16 A. The purpose of that meeting was for us jointly to find ways of

17 addressing all the problems we were facing at the time, and we were facing

18 some terrible problems because people started coming to Banja Luka who had

19 fled from the areas of Prijedor, Kozarac, Bosanska Gradiska, and they were

20 recounting the horrors that were taking place in those areas. And after

21 that, it was decided that we should rally all the Bosniak associations and

22 try to respond in a certain way to all these things we knew were going on,

23 and the aim of this meeting was to set up a commission for fighting for

24 human rights for the implementation of the Geneva Conventions throughout

25 the area of Bosanska Krajina which would be under the patronage of

1 Merhamet. Those were the main aims of that meeting.

2 Q. Can I ask you this? At the time of this meeting, you've told us

3 that people had fled from Prijedor, Kozarac and the like, and were

4 recounting the horrors. Was this meeting after the attack had taken place

5 on Kozarac?

6 A. I think it was after the attack on Kozarac.

7 Q. Having made this decision to set up a commission, did you set up

8 office premises?

9 A. We decided where the office of the commission would be, and the

10 office was in my former office where I used to work for a late attorney

11 Sakan Rudin in Banja Luka, where I was an apprentice, in Fadil Maglic

12 Street, number 4, in Banja Luka.

13 Q. The commission, how many members did it have?

14 A. The commission had four members, four members, representing these

15 various associations, four members.

16 Q. Can you just tell us who the members were?

17 A. Members of the commission were Mr. Alija Hadzihalilovic from Banja

18 Luka, an imam on behalf of the Islamic Religious Community; Mr. Bajric,

19 Professor Bajric, I don't know his first name, representing Merhamet

20 of Banja Luka; Mr. Adil Medic, as the representative of the Forum of

21 Intellectuals; and myself on behalf of the Party of Democratic Action.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, we have to stop in about --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We will have to stop in about three or four minutes

25 time.

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I can finish this portion of the

2 evidence.

3 Q. Once your offices had been established, who came to see you at

4 those offices?

5 A. I don't understand the question.

6 Q. Who -- the offices were established, you told us, in the street.

7 Did you receive people at your offices? Did people call at your offices?

8 A. Yes. People would come on a daily basis. When they learnt about

9 this office, they would come every day because in front of the office

10 there was a large garden, and the yard was full of people, every day.

11 Q. And what was the help that they were seeking from your

12 organisation?

13 A. Basically, they asked if we could find out information about their

14 relatives, husbands, brothers, people detained, mostly at the Manjaca

15 camp, and they informed us that there were camps also in Prijedor, such as

16 Keraterm, Trnopolje and Omarska, and they asked us whether we could reach

17 them, establish contact with them.

18 Q. I'm going to come to Manjaca, I think, probably tomorrow morning

19 but did you make any attempt to find out or to get information about the

20 camps in the Prijedor area that you've mentioned?

21 A. Yes. We tried to inquire about Prijedor and Bosanski Novi and the

22 Bosanska Gradiska and Bosanska Dubica. We did what we could to reach the

23 competent authorities, people who were responsible for those camps.

24 Q. Did you have any success in respect -- and we will take the

25 municipalities separately, firstly Prijedor?

1 A. We did not have any success regarding all these camps that I have

2 listed and specifically Prijedor now, because we went to the Centre of the

3 Security Services in Banja Luka to see the head of that service - I think

4 his name was Zupljanin - with a request that he allow us to visit those

5 camps. I personally went to the Security Services Centre with Mr. Adil

6 Medic and Professor Bajric. We were turned back and we did not manage to

7 reach Mr. Zupljanin. After that, Mr. Adil Medic and I think Professor

8 Bajric managed to reach Mr. Zupljanin and I learnt, on the basis of what

9 they told me, that Mr. Zupljanin had told them that they could not give

10 them permission to enter Omarska, Trnopolje, Keraterm, stadium in Bosanski

11 Novi and Bosanska Gradiska, but that we should go there to see the

12 municipal Security Services Centres there, that is, the municipal police,

13 and ask them for permission. However, as far as I know, for as long as I

14 was in Banja Luka, they never managed to obtain permission, though we did

15 keep on insisting, even through international organisations to be allowed

16 to visit those camps.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that would be a suitable moment.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. We will resume tomorrow

19 morning at 9.00. Mr. Dzonlic, you are still in the position of a

20 witness, so please, between now and tomorrow, do not get in contact with

21 anybody with regard to these proceedings or the matters that you are

22 giving evidence about.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday the 27th day of

25 February, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.