Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4109

1 Thursday, 11 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you call the case, please, Madam

6 Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: As usual, good afternoon, Mr. Brdjanin. Can you

10 hear me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

12 Honours. I hear and I understand.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You have to be patient. I have to put the same

14 question every day. So it's not a question because I doubt whether you

15 get interpretation, but I need to put the same question every day just to

16 make sure that the interpretation is okay. Not to bother you, in other

17 words.

18 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours,

19 and thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 General Talic, good afternoon to you. And I put the same question

22 to you: Can you understand me in a language -- can you hear me in a

23 language that you can understand?

24 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

25 I hear you in a language that I understand.

Page 4110

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And you may sit down.

2 Appearances for the Prosecution.

3 MR. CAYLEY: May it please Your Honours. My name is Cayley. I

4 appear on behalf of the Prosecution with the case manager, Denise Gustin.

5 Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good afternoon to you.

7 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 MS. MAGLOV: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm Milka Maglov, a

9 lawyer, and the lead counsel, Mr. Ackerman and Ms. Radosavljevic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

11 And appearances for General Talic.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

13 Honour. My name is Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic. I represent General Talic

14 together with colleague Fabien Masson.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

16 Any preliminaries before we bring in the witness?

17 Okay. Usher, could you please bring the witness. And we'll go

18 into closed session, please, first.

19 [Closed session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]


Page 4111













13 Pages 4111-4154 redacted closed session













Page 4155

1 --- On resuming at 5.06 p.m.

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open Session]

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think perhaps I can get started while

12 the --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Korner. Please go ahead.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, first of all, can I take up the matter

15 that Mr. Cayley referred to at the end of the last session, and that is,

16 I'm afraid, the problems that are caused as far as particularly my

17 attendance is going to be in this case next week.

18 Your Honour, the Stakic case, notwithstanding our attempts to

19 persuade Judge Schomburg that it should be delayed, is going to start next

20 Tuesday. The case will be opened -- or the opening will certainly

21 commence on Tuesday morning.

22 Your Honour, I don't think it's going to cause a problem, because

23 I think the next -- there are three witnesses now to come who are what

24 we've called crime-based witnesses. And I think that will probably take

25 tomorrow, Monday, and Tuesday. But it may be that the -- they do finish

Page 4156

1 early on Tuesday. I've got to call the witness who follows on who's

2 Witness number 74.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: There was a change of switch yesterday. I just want

4 to make sure that we've got the names -- not the names, the numbers right.

5 Just to confirm it with you, Ms. Korner. That's all.

6 This is Witness 7.171. Yes, BT12 is Witness 7.171. And then

7 there was a switch, as I was informed yesterday.

8 MS. KORNER: That's right.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness after him will be 7.160.

10 MS. KORNER: Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And then 7.197.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And then let's leave 7.4, because I don't think --

14 MS. KORNER: No. But that's the --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We're interested in that.

16 MS. KORNER: But that's the one that I'm going to be calling. And

17 it may be that he could start on Tuesday afternoon, and I'm asking for

18 Your Honours' indulgence not to have to call him until Wednesday.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That shouldn't be a problem with us.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you referring to 7.4?

22 MS. KORNER: I am.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I've got it right. So basically we're talking

24 of this witness plus another two.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes.

Page 4157

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And presumably ready by Tuesday?

2 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, then after those --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And then you're asking to produce 7.4 Wednesday.

4 MS. KORNER: Exactly.


6 MS. KORNER: But that's --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay with us, Ms. Korner.

8 MS. KORNER: I'm grateful.

9 Your Honour, and it may be that any remaining time can be filled

10 in by that excellent exercise so enjoyed by Mr. Ackerman of having a look

11 at some more documents, because we haven't actually looked at some of the

12 document Volume 2.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: At the end of the exercise he will rise and ask that

14 his own documents will be read too.

15 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

16 Anyhow, Your Honour, that's the first matter. And I do apologise.

17 It shouldn't happen too often, but it is next week a problem.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. I mean, you have the understanding of

19 this Tribunal. And I know that you -- the same Prosecution team in this

20 case is the Prosecution team in the other case. So I appreciate the

21 problems that -- the difficulties that you have to face.

22 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, as I say, I hope it won't be

23 too -- Mr. Cayley normally will not be involved in the Stakic case but has

24 to deal with one Dr. Donia yet again in that case.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's no problem, Ms. Korner. I mean, you will find

Page 4158

1 this Court cooperative.

2 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Not just you, but also the Defence, as much as we

4 can.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that, however, brings me to an allied

6 problem, which is this question of the crossover of the witnesses. Now,

7 Your Honour hasn't given a ruling yet on the motion for depositions, but

8 it was discussed yesterday in the Pre-Trial Conference, and it's perfectly

9 apparent that because of the divergence in the evidence at the moment

10 between the two cases -- in fact, because we're nowhere near Prijedor,

11 that the logistics are going to make this suggested course just

12 unworkable. And I understand from what Judge Schomburg said, that you and

13 he had in fact discussed the matter.

14 But Your Honour, there is coming in the Stakic trial a witness.

15 The disclosure number of which in this trial is 7.35. I would be very

16 grateful if the Defence in this case could have a look at the transcript

17 that they have been given. He has testified before. We would wish to

18 tender him in this case under Rule 92, but it may be that they will feel

19 that he is someone that they wish to cross-examine. If that is right,

20 although it would interrupt the Sanski Most evidence, we would wish to

21 him -- to tender him in this case the week after next.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Korner. Given the order

23 of witnesses that you intend to present in the Sanski Most municipality,

24 where does -- because I don't have that in front of me -- where does this

25 particular witness fit in?

Page 4159

1 MS. KORNER: He comes from Prijedor. But that's the whole point,

2 Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. Okay.

4 MS. KORNER: With a great deal of reluctance -- but we are

5 enormously concerned about this business of witnesses coming and going. We

6 would like to interrupt Sanski Most and interpose, if the Defence require

7 to cross-examine him, this particular witness. As I say, he's got the

8 disclosure number 7.35.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I read you now. I wasn't reading you 100 per

10 cent before.

11 MS. KORNER: I'm not asking for a decision today, but I'm merely

12 asking Your Honours and the Defence to perhaps consider that matter over

13 the weekend.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And this would entail how long a stoppage in the

15 Sanski Most?

16 MS. KORNER: Well, it would really depend -- we would propose

17 to -- he would be called in the Stakic case on Thursday and Friday of next

18 week. We would then provide to the Defence in this case the transcript of

19 what he said in the Stakic case and ask to interpose him --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The date would be -- today is the 11th, plus seven,

21 18th and 19th --

22 MS. KORNER: Yes. He would be called in the Stakic case on 18th

23 and 19th of April.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Of April. Mm-hm. And you propose to hand to the

25 Defence the transcript --

Page 4160

1 MS. KORNER: Yes. The rough version.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Roughly that of the 18th on the 19th and that of the

3 19th, I would suppose, on Monday?

4 MS. KORNER: Yes. And then --


6 MS. KORNER: Interpose him if we have to on the Wednesday, because

7 we're not sitting on the 23rd because of a plenary.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Well, that's a foregone conclusion on

9 your part. I don't know.

10 MS. KORNER: Well --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I've discussed it a little bit, and it's not to be

12 excluded that I -- I informed the President of the ICTY that I think I

13 should have the sitting nonetheless.

14 MS. KORNER: Well, that would be very helpful, Your Honour, yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: But I will of course inform you beforehand. But

16 don't take it for granted that because there is a plenary on the 23rd,

17 that means that definitely we are not sitting.

18 MS. KORNER: Oh, well, I hadn't appreciated that, Your Honour. So

19 we'd be very grateful if we could --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But I had it in mind -- I have discussed it

21 already with others, and I still have to discuss it with my two colleagues

22 and then come to a decision. But you will know in good time what's going

23 to happen.

24 MS. KORNER: Well, thank you, Your Honour. I mean, it would be

25 very helpful, because --

Page 4161

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And the understanding, Ms. Korner, is that if any

2 one of us three prefers to be present at the plenary, which takes

3 precedence, actually, over the sitting, then obviously the sitting will

4 not take place on the 23rd. Otherwise, we will hold the sitting, and we

5 will explain to the President that between what's being discussed between

6 2.15 and 6.30 in the plenary and here, we have opted for this. But you

7 will be informed in due course.

8 MS. KORNER: Well, may I simply say, Your Honour, with the added

9 complication of this particular witness, we -- the first witness in Sanski

10 Most is 7.77. It would be nice to be able to finish him off within the

11 week, because otherwise we have a week off and he has to come back again.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: 7. ...?

13 MS. KORNER: 77. He's the first witness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Ms. Korner, if you let us have his

15 statements in good time --

16 MS. KORNER: Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- we would be able to make an assessment of how

18 long -- and then if needs be, we can direct you and Defence teams as to

19 what to concentrate upon during the examination-in-chief and the

20 cross-examination so that we will condense everything, what is relevant,

21 because so far I've -- we have allowed you a lot of room and a lot of

22 space. But we may have to cut down on that.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And this may be a good reason.

25 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think we can let Your Honours

Page 4162

1 have it tomorrow.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Not just us, but also the Defence teams.

5 MS. KORNER: They've got them. They've got all the statements.

6 Your Honour, that's -- those -- that's one of the two matters that

7 I had to mention -- sorry, one of the three.

8 The second matter is this. And I've mentioned it mainly to

9 Madam Fauveau because it affects her more than anybody else. Coming from

10 Sanski Most is a witness who was one of the few survivors of a massacre in

11 the garage. There's her and her sister. The sister has been accepted by

12 the Defence under Rule 92, although Your Honours have still got to make a

13 ruling. But it's one of the ones that was accepted. But that was on the

14 basis that one of the two sisters was going to attend. Neither -- well,

15 effectively, neither sister, who were both very young at the time -- one

16 was 16 and the other was 11 -- will -- at the moment they're both refusing

17 to attend because they're saying they cannot bear to relive these matters,

18 although they did sign statements saying they would attend. I'm raising

19 it, Your Honour, and I've raised it be Madam Fauveau, who as I say, it

20 affects most of all, because I'm going to ask if it could be considered

21 whether these women really have to attend, either of them. I can and I

22 will, if I'm told that they must attend -- I would have to apply for a

23 witness summons for the sister that we listed to attend. But I'm telling

24 Your Honours this, and I've raised it, as I say, with Madam Fauveau, in

25 the hopes that perhaps some arrangement or agreement can become

Page 4163

1 available.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Short of that, Ms. Korner, what's the other

3 alternative that you may be ...?

4 MS. KORNER: The only alternative is to apply to Your Honours for

5 a witness summons which will be served upon her and she will be told that

6 she must attend.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: This witness has never given evidence in any other

8 trial?

9 MS. KORNER: Never.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, I don't know whether you were

11 prepared for this. If you were, perhaps you could illuminate the

12 Chamber. If you are not, of course, you can come back to the Chamber at

13 an adequate time and let us know what the position of General Talic is in

14 this regard.

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I spoke to

16 Ms. Korner, and I asked her if I can give my reply on Monday. Having said

17 that, I do have empathy with this young woman, but it seems that there are

18 no other witnesses who are speaking about the same event. So I will see

19 what I can do. And if we can make an arrangement to avoid the young woman

20 coming here. But I have to say I have much reserve on this possibility,

21 that I would actually accept this 92 bis Rule, but I promise that I will

22 do my best.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there's no other -- there's one other

24 witness who's coming, but he didn't actually see the killings. He's going

25 to talk about the discovery of the bodies. But it is only --

Page 4164

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The same incident, you mean?

2 MS. KORNER: It's the same incident, but only these two -- it's

3 only these two sisters who provided statements -- I'm sorry, there was one

4 relation to the family, but she was 80, and it was impossible. There was

5 just no way we could deal with her. So effectively, we're in that

6 position.

7 Your Honour, that really, I think, deals with -- and I'm sorry to

8 have raised all these witness problems at this late stage, particularly

9 with the witness sitting here waiting to start.

10 The final matter is this: I understand from what I was told that

11 I certainly misled the Chamber and Mr. Ackerman when I said that the

12 witness about whom we had all this discussion earlier this week had asked

13 for protective measures. I understood that to be taken as had asked us to

14 apply for. Obviously we haven't been applying for all witnesses. We've

15 been doing it municipality by municipality. We're now going to put in a

16 motion to cover everybody so that that situation doesn't arise again.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

18 MS. KORNER: As I say, I'm sorry that the Court was misled.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: These things happen, Ms. Korner.

20 MS. KORNER: I understood what I meant, but I obviously didn't

21 make it clear enough.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that means we can start with you, sir.

23 Welcome -- I think he needs to put --

24 Good afternoon, sir.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

Page 4165

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't realise you did not have the headphones on

2 before. I thought you were following the discussion. The discussion

3 actually had nothing to do with you. Otherwise, of course, we -- I would

4 give orders to have it started again. This was organisational matters

5 that we were discussing. I am sorry you had to wait for all these minutes

6 until we could get started with your evidence. I didn't realise it was

7 going to take this long. I was assured before I started that it was only

8 a question of a couple of minutes.

9 Again, once more, good afternoon, and welcome to this Trial

10 Chamber. The Chamber is very grateful that you have come over to give

11 your testimony.

12 The gentleman sitting -- standing next to you is now going to hand

13 you a piece of paper, on which there is a statement -- a solemn

14 declaration that you are kindly asked to make. But before you make it --

15 Yes.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, excuse me. I would ask the Court if

17 the declaration could be read to the witness and if he could repeat it

18 back. He has some poor eyesight and prefers to have things read to him

19 rather than read it himself.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's no problem.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you read B/C/S? Because it's -- I think what we

23 need to do is you read in English and the interpreter will interpret --

24 will interpret -- will translate. And the witness, as soon as you hear

25 the interpreter translating the statement in your own language, please,

Page 4166

1 there will be a pause, and you are kindly asked to repeat the same words

2 in your own language.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So please read slowly sentence by sentence. I

5 know there isn't much, but we'll go bit by bit.

6 MR. USHER: I solemnly declare.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

8 MR. USHER: That I will speak the truth.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.

10 MR. USHER: The whole truth.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.

12 MR. USHER: And nothing but the truth.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You see? We have found a solution. You may now sit

15 down. And I will now explain to you -- the gentleman can now sit down.

16 And I will try to explain to you very briefly the procedure of

17 this Tribunal.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I do not know if you have ever been in a Tribunal

21 like this. I know from your statement that you have been in a court of

22 law. This is a little bit different. You are in an International

23 Tribunal. We are the three Judges.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I am the Presiding Judge, and I have two other

Page 4167

1 Judges sitting with me to hear and determine this case, a case which has

2 been brought by the Prosecutor of this Tribunal against two persons. One

3 person is Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin, and the other person is General Talic,

4 Momir Talic.

5 Now, if you look to your right, you see three persons near you.

6 And that's the team for the Prosecution. Now, you will not necessarily

7 see the same faces every day. Those faces may change. But those three

8 persons represent the Prosecutor of this Tribunal. And they will be the

9 first to go ahead with what you are here for, and that is answering a set

10 of questions. The Prosecution will put to you some questions. There will

11 be quite a few of them, I would imagine. And your duty here is to keep

12 calm and try to answer those questions, all the questions. Don't tell us

13 more than you are asked and don't tell us less than you are asked. So you

14 answer the question, the whole question, and possibly nothing but the

15 question.

16 Having finished that stage, there will be two other teams of

17 lawyers. The first team is -- if you look on your left, you see again

18 three persons in the front row, and that's the -- on the front row, that's

19 the Defence team for Radoslav Brdjanin. And behind them, there is --

20 there are two persons, and that's the Defence team for General Talic,

21 behind the first row in the back, behind you, there is the Defence -- the

22 other Defence team. They have a right under the law of this Tribunal to

23 question you as well. It's not just the Prosecution that puts questions

24 to you but also the Defence. That's something which is fundamentally

25 important in the proceedings of this Tribunal.

Page 4168

1 I know that the evidence you are going to give here, sir, are

2 events which may not be easy for you to give evidence upon, at least

3 according to what I read from your previous statement to the Prosecution.

4 You have to understand that the Prosecution, ourselves, the Defence, and

5 you are on the same journey. We have the same interest. And that is

6 establishing the truth. Therefore, you have to keep calm, and you --

7 although it may not be easy, you have to do your best not to let yourself

8 be carried away emotionally.

9 I am now going to ask Ms. Korner -- you will be conducting the

10 examination-in-chief, or --

11 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, Mr. Nicholls will.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Nicholls, okay.

13 I'm now going to ask Mr. Nicholls to stand up and commence his

14 examination-in-chief.

15 Before he does, is there anything you would like to state -- to

16 ask this Chamber? Have you understood what I have tried to explain to

17 you?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

20 Please.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 To begin with, I would ask if we could go into private session for

23 some of the initial material which could otherwise potentially identify

24 the witness.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's what we will do.

Page 4169

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.

2 [Private session]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

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Page 4172

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3 [redacted]

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5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll go into open session now, please.

12 Okay. We are in public session now. Thank you.

13 You may proceed, Mr. Nicholls.


15 Q. You said the relations were good. Did you have -- were you

16 friends with Serbs and Croats, as well as with other Muslim families?

17 A. Certainly. Certainly.

18 Q. And I understand you were -- briefly you did a brief two-year

19 military service?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And after that, you were in the reserves.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During this time, the whole time you lived in your village, were

24 you involved in any political activities?

25 A. No.

Page 4173

1 Q. Were you interested in politics? That is, did you follow politics

2 in newspapers, on television, or on the radio?

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. What type of work did you do? Where were you employed?

5 A. I was a farmer, and I was also employed in a company in Banja

6 Luka.

7 Q. What was the name of that company?

8 A. It was the utility company [redacted].

9 Q. And that was a large company which employed a great many people?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When did you stop working for that utility company?

12 A. Somewhere at the end of 1991.

13 Q. And how did you come to stop working for the utility company?

14 A. Well, we didn't want to partake in the Serbian army, and we were

15 dismissed and that they would call us later.

16 Q. Okay. And when you say "we," who are you referring to?

17 A. We, the Muslims and the Croats.

18 Q. Were all of the Muslims and Croats dismissed from the company in

19 late 1991?

20 A. Those who joined their army, no. But those who didn't want to

21 join their army had to leave the company.

22 Q. Who was it that actually told you that you were dismissed from

23 this sanitation -- or from this utility company?

24 A. Well, it -- the management told us that we were redundant.

25 Q. Were any workers of Serb ethnicity dismissed from the company at

Page 4174

1 this time?

2 A. Well, those who didn't -- if they didn't want to join their army,

3 certainly.

4 Q. Okay.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Nicholls, because Ms. Fauveau --

6 Madam Fauveau has got -- no. You almost had visitors, Madam Fauveau. I

7 think you still have.

8 THE REGISTRAR: It's okay. We're in open session.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's okay.

10 Go ahead.


12 Q. Once you were dismissed from the company in late 1991, what did

13 you do next to support yourself and your family?

14 A. Well, I was farming. I worked on the farm.

15 Q. And was your house located -- your home located on the same farm

16 that you worked on?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I'm going to move ahead a little bit and talk about some of

19 the -- ask you some questions about some of the military operations which

20 you were able to observe.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could have the map.

22 If this could be placed on the ELMO. Sorry, I don't know -- the

23 Defence -- you don't have copies of --

24 Okay. Could you pass these out to the Defence counsel and the

25 Judges.

Page 4175

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. Thank you.

3 Q. Sir, can you see the map on the screen in front of you?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. I'd ask you to look at that map for a moment and tell us whether

6 that map is a fair and an accurate representation of the area which it

7 depicts.

8 A. Yes, it does.

9 Q. Now, [redacted]; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And from that hill, you could see much of this surrounding area

13 which you see before you on the map.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, at sometime, did you begin to see tanks appearing in this

16 area? If you could tell me.

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. Where did you first see a tank?

19 A. I saw it in 1991 or maybe it was 1992, anyway, before I left.

20 Q. And my question was: Which town -- you don't necessarily need to

21 point to it -- but which town did you first see tanks appearing in?

22 A. In Balte, the first tank.

23 Q. Okay. Now, is that a Serb or a Muslim or a Croat village?

24 A. Serbian.

25 Q. And where was that tank directed towards? Which villages was it,

Page 4176

1 if you could tell, aimed toward?

2 A. Bastasi and Mehovci.

3 Q. And what is the predominant ethnicity of those villages which

4 you've just mentioned?

5 A. More Serbs.

6 Q. Let me ask that again. I'm not sure you understood. The tank at

7 Balte was aimed at which villages?

8 A. Towards Culumi, Mehovci. And those are Muslim villages.

9 Q. Did you see that tank open fire at any point?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you see any other tanks appear in this region?

12 A. A tank on -- in Memici.

13 Q. And where was that tank directed towards?

14 A. Mehovci and Bastasi. They could target either of the two.

15 Q. Okay. And did you see that tank open fire at any point?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Where else did you see tanks during this time?

18 A. Near Tisovac towards Hadrovci. I saw two tanks. I saw some

19 soldier, some men.

20 Q. And Hadrovci is -- what is the predominant ethnicity of this town?

21 A. Muslim.

22 Q. And did those tanks in Tisovac open fire at any point?

23 A. [No audible response]

24 Q. I'm not sure the answer was recorded. Did those tanks at Tisovac

25 open fire? Did you see that?

Page 4177

1 A. Yes. Yes. Towards -- fire was opened towards Hadrovci.

2 Q. And what else did you see at that time?

3 A. I could see that when I was in Bastasi and after -- up to the time

4 I was evicted from that area.

5 Q. But did you see any damage [Realtime transcript read in error

6 "camouflage"] occurring from that shelling?

7 A. I saw the houses burning. One could see it all.

8 Q. Do you recall how many houses you saw burning as a result of that

9 shelling?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Sorry, I didn't say "camouflage," I believe, in the transcript, if

12 that can be corrected.

13 And the village where you saw those houses burning, were those

14 Muslim houses or Serb houses?

15 A. Houses of Muslims.

16 Q. And did you see any other of the villages in that area shelled

17 during this period or attacked?

18 A. No, no. I haven't -- hadn't seen it.

19 Q. Well, let me ask. Do you recall an attack -- any attacks

20 originating from Popovac?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And is that -- was Popovac a Serb or a Muslim village?

23 A. Serb.

24 Q. And which villages -- or where did you see -- what was the object

25 which villages were attacked from Popovac?

Page 4178

1 A. Vranic and Basici.

2 Q. And were you able to see whether any damage -- could you describe

3 those attacks, any damage you were able to see.

4 A. We could see houses burning. And once the shell falls, it -- the

5 houses were ignited and started burning.

6 Q. And do you recall seeing any attack from Popovac on Mehovic?

7 A. Well, certainly they attacked. I didn't see it myself, but I saw

8 the houses burning and the people fleeing.

9 Q. What do you mean you saw the people fleeing? Can you describe

10 that?

11 A. Well, they were fleeing from the shelling. They were fleeing

12 through my village in order to save their necks.

13 Q. Thank you. I know you don't know the exact day, but if you could

14 give me an approximate time when this shelling occurred and when you saw

15 these people fleeing through your village.

16 A. It was approximately two or one. They went through this village.

17 They were my relatives. Others went by another way.

18 Q. Thank you. And my question is: Do you remember approximately

19 what month this was?

20 A. It was prior to the month of August. Maybe June or July,

21 something like that.

22 Q. Okay. Now, during these attacks which you have described, this

23 shelling, at any point did you see any kind of return fire from the Muslim

24 villages which were being shelled?

25 A. They didn't have the weapons for that.

Page 4179

1 Q. But did you see any form of resistance to these attacks by the

2 army?

3 A. No, not at all.

4 Q. And just to be clear, all these attacks which you've described

5 originated from Serb villages and were targeted at Muslim villages; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, you said that they didn't -- people didn't have any weapons

9 to resist these attacks. Are you aware, did the Muslim population in this

10 area have any weapons? Did anybody that you know of have any rifles,

11 hunting rifles, pistols?

12 A. Well, they had hunting rifles and pistols with a permit, but prior

13 to that they already came and collected these weapons in 1991.

14 Q. Who collected these weapons?

15 A. Civil police.

16 Q. And these were collected from the Muslim population.

17 A. Yes. And they also said that they would return these weapons.

18 Q. Were the weapons ever returned, to your knowledge?

19 A. No, no. There's nobody there any more.

20 Q. And can you tell me, during this time period, late 1991 into 1992,

21 did the Serbian population of this area have their weapons taken away?

22 A. No. They were given.

23 Q. How were you aware of that, what you've just said, that they

24 were -- that the Serbian population was actually given weapons and that

25 their weapons were not taken away? How do you know that?

Page 4180

1 A. At the Milinkovic's house, they were bringing them in.

2 Q. I'm sorry. What do you mean by that? You saw weapons being

3 brought in at this particular house?

4 A. I went to Karanovac. I passed that building. I saw a truck full

5 of weapons. I was -- it wasn't clear to me whether they were unloading

6 the truck or loading it. I didn't even dare stop by and watch. I just

7 passed by.

8 Q. But then was it common knowledge, or how did you know that your

9 Serb neighbours had weapons but that your Muslim neighbours did not?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I would -- I don't like this question at all,

11 Mr. Nicholls. Could you rephrase it, please.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll move on.

13 Q. If I could ask you again, how were you aware or what was your

14 basis of knowing that --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I think the question to ask to the witness is

16 whether his -- what he saw in Karanovac, what he's just explained, the

17 loading or unloading, could not be exactly precise on that, on weapons on

18 or from a truck was the only basis or information he has on the basis of

19 which he can say that the Serbs were given arms rather than have weapons

20 taken away from them or whether he had other information, other bases for

21 his statement.


23 Q. Other than that incident that you've described, do you have any

24 other basis for your information?

25 A. Well, neighbours came to see me, all Serbs, and they all had

Page 4181

1 weapons. Even a child who would be 15 years old, and even a child of 15

2 would be bearing a rifle, a long rifle.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you.

4 Now, going back to the incidents of shelling which you described.

5 What effect did that have on the Muslim population in your area and in

6 your town?

7 A. Nobody was able to sleep. Everyone was afraid of shells. And the

8 Serbs told us that we mustn't move in groups, that they would kill us. So

9 we had to escape. We wouldn't dare stay in the house. We saw houses burn

10 in Hadrovci in Memic. We saw these houses burn in neighbouring hamlets.

11 So I had to hide. I had to go into the fields, into the woods.

12 Q. And when you say that, do you mean that you left your home and you

13 stayed in the woods? Could you explain that a little bit, please.

14 A. I never stayed in my house at night. I was always outside,

15 because I was afraid of shells or whether they would come and slit our

16 throats. I was constantly afraid of everything.

17 Q. And would your whole family leave the house at night?

18 A. Yes. Only the people who are old, who couldn't leave the houses,

19 then they stayed. Some neighbours.

20 Q. And did there come a time where you tried to take other steps to

21 protect yourself and your family? Did you ever try to leave the area

22 because of this shelling which you observed?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Tell me about that. Where did you try to go? What did you do?

25 A. Well, I had set off to escape into the town. I thought I would

Page 4182

1 feel freer in the town. So I got to Karanovac and the Serb army wouldn't

2 let me get through, so they told me to go back. They said, "There's more

3 of your people, so go out there. You can see them sitting outside." And

4 there were two soldiers.

5 Q. Let me stop you here for a moment. Where were you trying to get

6 to when you left? What village or place were you trying to reach?

7 A. I tried to go to Novoselija.

8 Q. And without saying their names, what members of your family -- or

9 who accompanied you when you tried to move, to go to Novoselija?

10 A. My wife and my daughter-in-law and myself.

11 Q. What were you able to bring with you at this time when you were

12 trying to leave?

13 A. Only what I had on me. So I just got into the cart drawn by a

14 horse and set off.

15 Q. And how far is Novoselija from -- well, that's not important. You

16 said that you reached Karanovac.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And please tell the Chamber -- you were starting to -- what

19 happened when you reached Karanovac.

20 A. I got to the checkpoint, and then they asked me where I was

21 going. I said I was going to Novoselija. And then they told me, "You

22 can't go through. Go back. Go back to Svrakava. There are your people

23 there, more of your people there."

24 Q. Sorry. Who was manning this checkpoint?

25 A. I don't know. They were in camouflage.

Page 4183

1 Q. But I think you said earlier it was an army checkpoint.

2 A. Yes, that's right. Yes. There were soldiers in camouflage. They

3 were armed. You couldn't recognise anyone.

4 Q. And did you recognise in particular any insignia on these

5 camouflage uniforms?

6 A. No, I didn't even look.

7 Q. What did you do when you were told that you were not allowed to

8 proceed?

9 A. They ordered immediately that these two soldiers should take me up

10 to these people who were gathered in the field.

11 Q. Where was that field?

12 A. It was a field near Karanovac called Svrakava. That's near Jasinj

13 Dvor [phoen]. It was a field. There was a field there.

14 Q. Now, you said "the people" in that field. Who was in that field?

15 A. There were -- there were people who were from Basici, and there

16 were people who were stopped there and told to be in that field.

17 Q. Now, the people in that field from Basici, were those soldiers or

18 civilians? What type of people were there?

19 A. Civilians. They were all Muslims. Women, children, people.

20 Q. And was anybody guarding them in this field? Were they free to

21 leave? Can you just describe a setting a little bit.

22 A. No. There was the army there, the soldiers, and the police from

23 Banja Luka.

24 Q. And if you can tell me approximately how many civilians were

25 being -- were being kept or were in that field.

Page 4184

1 A. At least 150.

2 Q. Now, how did you and your wife -- what happened next? How did you

3 come to leave the field?

4 A. We were told to go there, and then -- then I wanted to ask who was

5 the senior officer so that I could ask. And there was police as well. So

6 I went to one of them, one policeman. I recognised him. And there was

7 some civilians. And then they told me, "What are you doing here?" So I

8 said, "I had set off to go to Novoselija and they wouldn't let me go

9 through and they returned me."

10 Q. And then what happened?

11 A. And then they told me, "Who have you got of your family there?"

12 So I said, "I've got my wife and y daughter-in-law, and I've got a cart

13 with a horse." And he said, "You take your own and go back, go back

14 home."

15 Q. Did you do that?

16 A. That's what I did.

17 Q. And do you know what happened to those people in the field? Did

18 you personally ever see those people again?

19 A. I saw that they were moved out to Karanovac to a school or in

20 front of the school. It's a school which had a fence around, and I saw

21 them there for two or three days, and I didn't see them after that.

22 Q. And after you returned to your home, what did you do then? Did

23 you carry on living there at that time, or what did you do?

24 A. I continued to live there until this happened. I was just doing

25 the -- the work on the farm. And when this happened, of course I had to

Page 4185

1 leave everything and flee.

2 Q. Okay.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I'd request that we return to private

4 session now for the next area of testimony.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll go to private session.

6 [Private session]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4186













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Page 4188













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13 Page 4189 redacted private session












25 .

Page 4190

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 MR. ACKERMAN: That these killings had occurred in the way in

10 which the witness's statement said that they had. And I learned a moment

11 ago that Ms. Fauveau had done the same, and that was done in an effort to

12 keep the witnesses from having to go through what this gentleman just went

13 through.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: And there apparently has been some miscommunication

16 or something -- and I don't know what happened. But I didn't want to

17 raise it in the middle of the testimony, because I thought it might

18 distress him even further. But that's what we did, and we were trying to

19 prevent the trauma that I think this witness just experienced -- to some

20 extent reexperienced. And apparently it didn't work. But with regard to

21 cross-examination, I will have no questions of this witness unless there's

22 some testimony that I haven't heard yet that would prompt me to.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Fauveau?

24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that I will have

25 about half an hour.

Page 4191

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

2 So more or less --

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I -- Madam Fauveau I certainly recollect

4 giving me a letter saying that they didn't contest the murders. There's a

5 contest over this business of Serb soldiers, which is the --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: That is obvious, yes. To be expected.

7 MS. KORNER: I have absolutely no recollection of receiving

8 anything from Mr. Ackerman. I may be wrong -- in writing or verbally on

9 this witness, save for a communication sometime ago which I was instructed

10 to keep private and certainly didn't specify any particular witnesses. And

11 so on this particular witness, I have no recollection at all of him saying

12 that there was no contest whatsoever from the Defence and we needn't call

13 him.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Ms. Korner is referring to exactly the letter that

15 I was referring to. What I did with that letter, rather than witnesses,

16 was I went through the -- the indictment and said to Ms. Korner that I do

17 not contest the evidence regarding these killings. And I listed them all,

18 as I recall -- in the indictment. And what I -- the reason I asked her --

19 I asked her not to inform the Trial Chamber of that unless the same kind

20 of a -- an offer was forthcoming from Ms. Fauveau because I didn't want it

21 to appear that I was trying to curry the favour of the Trial Chamber and

22 make General Talic's team look like they were being unfair. And that's

23 the reason I did that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: And I think that was an appropriate thing for me to

Page 4192

1 do.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And you're not being criticised by anyone, Mr.

3 Ackerman.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes, he is. I am. I'm sorry, Your Honour. That's

5 absolutely no good, giving me a letter saying, "I don't want you to let

6 anybody know unless a public statement is made to that effect, I can't go

7 on the basis of a private communication --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not what I meant. The position is better

9 late than never, to start with.

10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think we had better be informed

11 in terms in open court or in an open public document what is not disputed,

12 by both counsel, please.


14 I think you need to take this up. We have to stop, because I owe

15 it to the interpreters to stop at 6.30 sharp. But I think you need to

16 address this between now and tomorrow morning, particularly since the next

17 one or two witnesses are crime-based too. So if we can avoid

18 unnecessary --

19 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, not quite the same extent. The next

20 witness is not going to talk about murders. It's more sackings and the

21 like. But this is going to happen, Your Honour. And it's one of the

22 reasons, of course, I raised the Sanski Most witness today. There are a

23 lot of people who at the moment are being asked to come who are simply

24 going to talk about atrocious killings without implicating either

25 defendant directly. And so we do want to know --

Page 4193

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right.

2 MS. KORNER: If these witness --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: A hundred per cent right. And not just you want to

4 know, but we are very much interested in knowing that too, because it's

5 our duty to mitigate -- lessen the traumas people have to go through in

6 this Tribunal. It's no fun. It's tragic.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I tried very hard. My intention is --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But maybe I'm not criticising you, as I said,

9 Mr. Ackerman, for not having tried. It's -- maybe the way it has been

10 done has not been exactly the way to go about it. If there's a little bit

11 of patching up that needs to be done, please do it between now and

12 whenever is appropriate so that we possibly can avoid a repetition of what

13 has happened today. I mean, it's traumatic for the witness; I suppose

14 also for you; and for the Prosecution, as well as for us.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: I will bring you a copy of my letter. I think it

16 was quite clear, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What I'm more interested than the letter is

18 interested in a sort of arrangements.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: On a permanent or on a regular basis to be reached

21 with the Prosecution.

22 I thank the interpreters for their patience. I suppose they are

23 on that side, because it's too dark. I can't see anything. I thank you

24 for having stayed with us a little bit more than we should have. Thank

25 you.

Page 4194

1 Tomorrow afternoon at 2.15, please.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

3 at 6.32 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

4 the 12th day of April, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.