Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5121

1 Tuesday, 7 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you

10 hear me in a language which you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

12 Yes, I can hear you and understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, you may sit down.

14 General Talic, can you hear me in a language that you can

15 understand?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I

17 can hear you and understand you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

19 Appearances for the Prosecution.

20 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, good morning, Your Honours. My name is Andrew

21 Cayley and I appear with my colleague Joanna Korner and Mr. Julian

22 Nicholls and our case manager Denise Gustin, thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

24 Appearances for Brdjanin.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

Page 5122

1 I'm with Tania Radosavljevic and Marela Jevtovic on behalf of

2 Mr. Brdjanin.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

4 Appearances for General Talic.

5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

6 Mr. President, Your Honours. I am Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau, representing

7 General Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And what about Maitre de Roux?

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. De Roux will be absent

10 for the next three weeks for professional reasons.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, please copy this part of the

12 records and have it communicated to Mr. Christian Rohde for any action he

13 may deem appropriate.

14 General Talic.

15 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I know that

16 Mr. De Roux will be absent for several weeks, and I agree to be

17 represented by Madam Natasha as lead counsel but for Mr. Pitron to be

18 present as well.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, this part of the transcript will

20 also be communicated to Mr. Christian Rohde, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, do I understand you well,

23 General Talic, that you would prefer at this stage to have Madam Natasha

24 Fauveau-Ivanovic as lead counsel and Mr. Pitron as co-counsel? Is that

25 what you meant?

Page 5123

1 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] What I meant was that as she's

2 always present, that she should conduct the proceedings together with

3 Mr. Pitron. Let them agree amongst themselves who will actually take

4 part.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And what about -- are you referring for these coming

6 three weeks only, or for the rest of the trial?

7 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Only these coming three

8 weeks.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Madam Fauveau.

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think I

11 have a word or two to say regarding lead counsel for General Talic. I

12 could not under any circumstances accept that. I can do this as

13 co-counsel, I can lead the Defence as I'm entitled to do according to the rules,

14 but I cannot accept to be lead counsel. I work for Mr. De Roux, and I have

15 absolute confidence in what he is doing. And if he is absent, it is only

16 because he has other important obligations.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Anyway, the whole of the transcript relating

18 to this incident will be communicated to Mr. Rohde, please,

19 Madam Registrar.

20 Yes. Mr. Ackerman, incidentally while we are dealing with --

21 Yes, Ms. Korner.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm hesitant to intervene in this, but

23 as I've already expressed earlier, I am concerned for the future

24 consequences of what is happening. Mr. De Roux is lead counsel on the

25 Registry list. He accepted this case on the basis that he would be

Page 5124

1 present as lead counsel, as lead counsel is obliged to be. Appreciating

2 what General Talic has now said, it is still in our submission highly

3 unsatisfactory, and I agree with Madam Fauveau. Although she's doing, as

4 we've all said, an excellent job, she is not lead counsel and shouldn't be

5 put in a position where she has to be.

6 Now, Your Honour, I think it's something that needs to be urgently

7 looked into.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This is why I've brought it up. And there

9 will be consequences. And by consequences, I mean where it hurts.

10 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

12 the main role of the lead counsel is to organise the defence. That is

13 exactly what Mr. De Roux is doing. This will be a trial that will last

14 very long, for a long time, and the Defence will have to take care of its

15 own witnesses. Yes, don't you think so, Your Honour?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think so, Madam Fauveau. I think what is

17 important is that everyone understands here that the choice of the lead

18 counsel is almost - almost - a prerogative of the accused. And once

19 chosen, there is an immense responsibility that is thrown on the lead

20 counsel, a responsibility that has to be fulfilled. If it's not, the

21 Chamber will intervene to make sure that the proceedings are at no time

22 endangered and that the rights of the accused are not only observed but

23 also respected by whom in particular ought to be respecting them.

24 So I have this communicated to Mr. Rohde, and if necessary

25 Mr. Rohde will come here and we will deal with the matter as necessary.

Page 5125

1 Incidentally, Mr. Ackerman, about three weeks ago the Chamber

2 insisted that you enter a declaration that the newly appointed co-counsel

3 would be in a position to take over should you for one or more reasons be

4 unable to attend, and you had promised to make the declaration -- the

5 appropriate declaration not on that day but as soon as possible. Three

6 weeks have passed now. And I'm going to ask you a few questions.

7 Am I right in assuming or taking that your co-counsel is

8 registered under Rule 45?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Am I right in assuming that she's familiar with the

11 details of this case?


13 JUDGE AGIUS: Am I right in assuming that she has previous

14 experience in this Tribunal?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Previous experience not as counsel.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No. As assistant.


18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And can you at the present moment indicate any

19 restriction or objection that may -- might arise which could operate

20 against her being your co-counsel?


22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Such as?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. Brdjanin spoke to you in open court about that

24 and told you that he did not accept her as his co-counsel.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But Mr. Brdjanin has no say in the matter.

Page 5126

1 The choice of the co-counsel is made by the office with the consent of the

2 attorney, of the lead counsel.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: All I can say to you, Your Honour, is Mr. Brdjanin

4 has made his wishes known to Your Honour. He has made it very difficult

5 for Ms. Radosavljevic to function as co-counsel. As a result of that, he

6 does not want her to function as co-counsel. He would like her to

7 function as legal assistant. And we have another person in mind for

8 co-counsel, and we've been working on that for the last couple of weeks.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope that person will be a person who would be in

10 a position to take over.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: It's my --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: It's my understanding that person would be. It's

14 my -- was my intention this morning, Your Honour -- and now that you have

15 raised the issue, I'll do so now -- to request an adjournment of this case

16 from now until Friday for me to work on that and get that matter resolved

17 and get co-counsel here. There are other reasons for that adjournment

18 which I'll bring to your attention, but that's one of them.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Which are the other reasons, Mr. Ackerman?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I received yesterday the decision of

21 Judge Schomburg regarding the disqualification motion.


23 MR. ACKERMAN: And it was critical of the Defence for not having

24 made proper inquiry of the Judges before filing the motion. And so this

25 morning I am going to make inquiry of the Judges before I proceed further

Page 5127

1 with the matter.

2 There are factual inaccuracies in Judge Schomburg's decision that

3 I both need to put on the record and to make inquiry about. The -- a

4 minor inaccuracy, or one that I just don't understand, Judge Schomburg

5 found that the list that was the basis of the motion was informally

6 distributed to the parties by the legal staff. It escapes me what the

7 difference is between an informal distribution and a formal distribution.

8 I think had I ignored it, I would have been told that it was formally

9 distributed to me.

10 The morning pressing concern that I have and the reason I am

11 raising this with you this morning is, first of all, the criticism that I

12 got from Judge Schomburg for not asking questions before proceeding. And

13 therefore, I will ask the question. Judge Schomburg said in his decision

14 regarding you, Your Honour Judge Agius, that it is undisputed that you

15 did not know the contents of the list as distributed. He said again on

16 page 8: "It has become undisputed that the challenged Judge had no

17 knowledge of the content of the list as distributed." It is not

18 undisputed. It was disputed rather strongly in the hearing before

19 Judge Schomburg, based upon what is an ambiguous statement, Your Honour.

20 And what I'm asking -- and you may, of course, do as you please with

21 regard to my request. What I'm asking is clarification of paragraph 12

22 and 13 of the minutes of Judge Schomburg's meeting with the Judges.

23 Paragraph 12 says: "Judge Agius never saw the distributed list

24 prior to the pre-municipality meeting but was aware that it was

25 distributed amongst the parties one day before the pre-municipality

Page 5128

1 meeting by the legal staff."

2 Number 13: "Judge Agius was provided --"

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down, please.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I will, thank you.

5 "Judge Agius was provided a memo on the pre-municipality meeting

6 one day before that meeting. That memo included also a possible list of

7 agreed facts but was not identical to the one distributed to the parties.

8 Inter alia the heading of the document distributed did not appear in the

9 memo provided to Judge Agius."

10 A reading of that paragraph 13, Your Honour, raises at least the

11 possibility that what you saw was the list of facts that we received

12 absent the preamble. I don't know if that's the case.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I will answer you straight away, Mr. Ackerman. First

14 of all, I reiterate that the memo that was sent to me apparently was not

15 even copied to the other two Judges, so that I will keep the other two

16 Judges out of the picture completely.

17 Secondly, the memo did contain a list, but it -- there was an

18 agreement between me and Mr. Von Hebel that I was absolutely having

19 nothing to do with the way they were organising the informal session that

20 they were going to have with you. He was responsible for the organisation

21 of that sitting. He was not even responsible, I gathered afterwards, for

22 the compilation of this list. I was informed just before that there was

23 a list, which I never saw. I had nothing to do with the compilation of

24 that list. I had nothing to do with the drafting of that list. I did

25 not -- I was not aware of the contents of that list until the moment that

Page 5129

1 this matter arose here. When it did arise, I looked at the list that was

2 annexed to the memo. At no time it was indicated in this list that this

3 was going to be presented to you as the Chamber's list. Rather, it was

4 indicated that this was something that the legal staff -- actually, it's

5 the most junior -- the recent -- most recent recruit in the junior staff

6 had prepared. I don't even know if it was checked by -- anyway, it was

7 the responsibility of the legal officer who was going to conduct the

8 meeting and the understanding apparently was that anything contained in

9 that list or anything that was going to be said by the legal officer

10 during that meeting would not be presented as something that the Chamber

11 was putting to you but as something that was being put to you in good

12 faith by a legal officer who had been entrusted by this Tribunal to try

13 and pave the way for a more smoother proceedings. However, if you want

14 the clarification, I'm making it to you. I mean, I was not aware of the

15 contents of that list, and I had absolutely nothing to do either with the

16 compilation or with the drafting of that list. That was something that

17 was drawn up. I am told in absolute good faith by a junior legal

18 assistant recruited temporarily who apparently referred to some other --

19 either to the indictment and apparently even to the original indictment.

20 Anyway, I mean, let's -- that's the clarification that I can give you.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Judge. I accept that. The --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And what I explained -- I mean, the minutes of the

23 meeting with Judge Schomburg, I mean, are just minutes. They are not

24 obviously comprehensive. But this is what I explained during that

25 meeting.

Page 5130

1 And I repeat: Judge Janu, Judge Taya were not aware of that list

2 or of the contents of that list. And I had a meeting with Mr. Von Hebel

3 before he came to meet you. We discussed a couple of things. But

4 certainly not even -- not the list, and I was not even shown the list. I

5 mean, I had the memo, and I could have seen this list, but this was an

6 exercise that I was entrusting completely in the hands of Mr. Von Hebel in

7 absolute good faith.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, with regard to Judges Janu and Taya, I

9 would like to formally apologise to both of them for including them in the

10 motion. I was faced with a document that said "the Chamber has drafted

11 such a list."

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You were not the only one who was faced with it,

13 Mr. Ackerman.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: And so I -- I really apologise for including them,

15 and that shouldn't have happened.

16 But that raises another issue which I think is also a serious

17 matter, and that is the question of whether this is a trial by a

18 three-judge panel or not. That list should never have been distributed

19 without all three of you knowing about it, and I think you all agree with

20 that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I have given instructions that later on if

22 anything of the sort happens, I mean, that a memo is distributed to the

23 other two Judges as well. I can assure you that as far as I know, this

24 has been the practice. Unfortunately the memo was prepared at the very

25 last moment. I think I was just -- the sitting of the -- the day before

Page 5131

1 just being brought to an end when this memo was ready; something like

2 that. And it was supposed to be given to us at the end of the sitting.

3 It wasn't given to us at the end of the sitting, and it was given to me

4 the following morning, the same day you had this meeting. And presumably

5 I would have expected the same memo to have been distributed during the

6 day to the other two Judges. I don't know if it was actually eventually

7 handed over.

8 But again, Mr. Ackerman, this was an informal meeting. I was not

9 even expecting a memo. I did not require a memo. I was leaving it

10 entirely in the hands of the senior legal officer who had proved to me how

11 efficient and how useful the previous informal meeting had been, and I had

12 left it entirely in his hands. This is the situation. He had no

13 instructions to prepare a memo. He prepared -- or whoever prepared the

14 memo was just to brief us on -- on what was likely going to be discussed

15 during the meeting. I'm not saying that a memo was not actually delivered

16 to the other two Judges. I mean, but ...

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just for a moment interrupt? I'm

18 slightly concerned about the fact that there's long discussion about an

19 issue which has been ruled upon by Judge Schomburg.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it has been ruled upon, and I take it --

21 MS. KORNER: And I -- may I -- the Prosecution's position has

22 always been that the attitude adopted by the Defence was out of all

23 proportion to anything that happened.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That I will not comment upon, Ms. Korner.

25 MS. KORNER: No. But I'm now suggesting, Your Honour, that if

Page 5132

1 Mr. Ackerman seeks remedies else wherever, if he has that right, that is

2 his option. But there has been a ruling by Judge Schomburg. The issue

3 has been closed, it has been decided that there is no justification for

4 removing Your Honour from presiding. And Your Honour --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And I am presiding.

6 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Ms. Korner apparently was not listening

9 again. I prefaced my remarks with "I was criticised for not asking

10 questions of the Tribunal before I -- this Chamber before I moved

11 further."

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You did not, actually. I mean --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: And so that's what I'm doing. I am asking you the

14 questions before I move further and make a decision as to whether to move

15 further with this. I'm not trying to reargue the issue. And please don't

16 hear me as trying to reargue the issue.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I am not -- otherwise I would have stopped

18 you.


20 The other issue this morning, Your Honour, is -- it's kind of a

21 two-headed issue in some ways. There is a witness scheduled to testify

22 this morning. I have previously objected to this witness being permitted

23 to testify until negotiations that are going on between counsel and the

24 organisation involved have been concluded. I again raise the issue. I

25 cannot see and do not understand why it is so important to go forward with

Page 5133

1 this matter before any inquiry has been made by this Chamber as to whether

2 or not the Defence will be treated in the same way the Prosecution has

3 been treated by this organisation. I think it's extremely unfair to go

4 forward with this witness.

5 The second thing is we were handed -- I received less than 20

6 minutes ago a new statement from this witness. I haven't even had a

7 chance to look at it. I have been told that the difference between it and

8 the previous statement we received is small --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You are privileged, Mr. Ackerman. Because we

10 haven't got it. Have you got it, the new statement?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I've been told that the differences are small. I

12 received a voice mail last night that it was put in my box. That was not

13 the case. When I came this morning, it was not in my box. I do not want

14 to go forward with this witness until I've had an opportunity to -- to

15 look at this statement.

16 So what I'm asking is this, that because of all the things that

17 I've spoken about this morning, the situation with co-counsel being one of

18 them, I would ask that we adjourn until Friday when we deal with the

19 journalist issue and that the witness who's scheduled for the next three

20 days be rescheduled at some future date. I know that is a difficult

21 matter, but I can't find a better solution.

22 There's also the matter their you raised first this morning, Your

23 Honour, that Ms. Korner has expressed her concern about. And I think it's

24 a matter that concerns the Chamber -- it clearly concerns the Chamber.

25 And so I think wisdom would dictate that we not sit until Friday.

Page 5134

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour wants to hear me on this.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to know whether you have anything to say.

4 MS. KORNER: Certainly. Your Honour, the first thing is in

5 respect of representation, Madam Fauveau has been representing

6 General Talic with extreme efficiency and quality of advocacy.

7 General Talic is satisfied with her representation, would like Mr. Pitron

8 to be here, which he's obviously in a position to deal with this witness.

9 As far as Mr. Ackerman is concerned, he's here. He should be in a

10 position to deal with this witness. I'll come back to the matter that he

11 has raised in a moment because he's known that this witness is coming

12 since I announced it. He has within no less than two counsel apparently.

13 I'm not sure what the position of the third counsel is exactly, but she's

14 robed, so I assume --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, she's robed. She's appointed -- duly appointed

16 as assistant.

17 MS. KORNER: She's --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes.

19 MS. KORNER: The lady at the end. I'm sorry.


21 MS. KORNER: I see. So he has the assistance of no less than two

22 counsel here.

23 The matter that has been raised by Mr. Ackerman last week in

24 respect to negotiations, Your Honour, we have here today representatives

25 of the organisation who are now -- who are in a position to tell Your

Page 5135

1 Honour what the situation is. We have obviously not gone into it, because

2 it's not a matter for us and it may be that Your Honour may want to hear

3 from them what the position is. But the fact is, as I said last time,

4 both Defence counsel have known for a very long time that we were going to

5 call these witnesses. And I don't know when they started their

6 negotiations or what the position has got to.


8 MS. KORNER: But that, as I say, there are two people here who can

9 assist Your Honour.

10 Your Honour, I'm going to hand that part of the matter over to

11 Mr. Cayley who's actually been dealing with it.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You haven't touched upon the --

13 MS. KORNER: No. We'll like to call the witness. We see no

14 reason for anything that's been raised by the witness should not be

15 called.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But there is one point that has been raised by

17 Mr. Ackerman which you haven't touched upon, and that is that there is

18 apparently a new statement --

19 MS. KORNER: Oh, I'm sorry.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Which has some --

21 MS. KORNER: Mr. Cayley can deal with that. That really is a very

22 small correction. It could be read in precisely two minutes. But

23 Mr. Cayley will deal with that.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's have the details from Mr. Cayley.

25 Mr. Cayley.

Page 5136

1 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Mr. Usher, if you could please give those to the Judges.

3 Your Honour, the background to this, as you know, is that because

4 of the special measures that were required by the organisation, we were

5 unable to have this statement signed by the witness. The organisation

6 concerned would only give its consent to the witness signing this

7 statement once the measures were in place, and we deemed it appropriate

8 that we would wait for his signature until he came to the Tribunal because

9 he had already had a formal statement taken down from him. He hadn't

10 given it a final read-through, and as I say, we couldn't get it signed

11 until the protective measures were in place.

12 When he came here on Sunday -- and I met with him on Monday -- he

13 read through the statement and he wanted to make a number of minor

14 changes, which you will see from the date of the final interview on the

15 6th of May, 2002 he did with investigator Richard Dupas. The changes that

16 he's made are bolded. They are in bold text in the statement. And they

17 are ten sentences, which frankly would take the best part of two to five

18 minutes to read. They are not substantive changes and they are simply to

19 accurately reflect what he wanted to say in a statement which he signed

20 yesterday. So that is the background to that, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there are

23 two things I want to say. The first one concern it is Defence of

24 General Talic. I am his co-counsel, and I have been representing him for

25 the from the beginning of this case. I think that I have all the

Page 5137

1 necessary qualifications to carry out these functions.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... I must say.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Nevertheless, I have come to the conclusion that my qualifications -- my

5 competence is being put into question every day. So I would rather have

6 this hearing adjourned in order to resolve this problem.

7 The other matter is the declaration of the witness that we have

8 just received. It's true that the changes, the amendments, aren't very

9 important. Still, certain parts of the first statement do not appear in

10 the second statement, and this requires a little more time to see what has

11 been withdrawn by the witness.

12 In addition, according to the Rules of Procedure, number 66 A(2),

13 the accused has to have the witness's statement in his own language. I

14 can renounce this right in the name of General Talic, because the changes

15 are not enormous. Nevertheless, we must have the time to present to the

16 accused that the -- the changes so that the accused can be aware of the

17 changes that have been made.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cayley, what I would like you to address is the

19 submission that has been made that there are parts -- not only additions,

20 but there are parts in the first statement that do not appear in the

21 second statement.

22 MR. CAYLEY: It's correct, Your Honour. And they're indicated by

23 three periods in the section which has been removed. And they are almost

24 exclusively connected with where the witness has made an addition, which

25 is in bold text. So there are some deletions which the witness chose to

Page 5138

1 make from his statement.

2 As far as the translation into the language --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Forget that. Forget that.

4 MR. CAYLEY: I mean, there is a translation.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being waived, in any case.

6 And I thank you, Madam Fauveau, for waiving that.

7 Yes.

8 MR. CAYLEY: I've got nothing further to add, other than the

9 problem, of course, with this witness. As you can imagine, the logistics,

10 Your Honour, that are involved in setting up this kind of testimony -- we

11 have to get legal counsel from the organisation, we have to get a

12 protection office -- it's simply going to be very, very difficult

13 indeed to reschedule it. And ultimately, the changes that are made to

14 this statement in reality are absolutely no prejudice to either of the

15 accused. They can be dealt with very, very quickly indeed. And as

16 Ms. Fauveau has already pointed out, they are not substantive changes to

17 the statement.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I find the change highly

20 substantive and even highly suspicious. In the original statement on page

21 7 --

22 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour. If we're going to go into

23 details on this we need to go into private session or closed session.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You are right, Ms. Korner.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. Let's do that.

Page 5139

1 MS. KORNER: I think private session will be sufficient.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Private session should be sufficient. Yes.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

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Page 5140

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So the position now is as following: Teams two ask

23 that there are three requests. The first request is for an adjournment of

24 the trial for the rest of the week, or until Friday, one of the reasons

25 being the pending or approximate appointment of a new co-counsel.

Page 5141

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: The Chamber does not think that this in itself

3 provides a sufficiently good reason for an adjournment of the trial.

4 The second matter -- the second request is for the delay in the

5 production of today's witness, 7.224. For the same reasons that were

6 brought forward previously and also because as I understood Mr. Ackerman

7 to date the situation or the negotiations with the humanitarian

8 organisations are still the same as they were before.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I received a recent communication and

10 permission to disclose that communication and the prior one to the Court,

11 which I expected to do tomorrow or later today, to bring you up to date on

12 what's going on. But I do -- I do now have two communications that you're

13 unaware of that really should be brought to your attention.

14 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I don't see why we should wait

15 till tomorrow.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

17 MS. KORNER: If it's of moment, then it should be produced now.

18 As I say, we don't know anything about it, but the lawyers are here -- or

19 if Mr. Ackerman wants to produce it to waive his right to the ex-parte

20 communications, then he should do it now.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, he can produce the documents tomorrow at his

22 pleasure and leisure but at least he could give us an indication of what

23 the contents are. Or the substance of the response.

24 MS. KORNER: Again, Your Honour, I think we should go into private

25 session.

Page 5142

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll go into private session.

2 [Private session]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

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Page 5143

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

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5 [redacted]

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8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The third request is for some time to be able to

17 go -- to be able to go through the new statement. I think you are not the

18 only one -- you are entitled to have some time to go through this. We

19 also require some time to go through these two statements to see if there

20 are any differences. I will just consult my two ...

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to give for the time being half an hour

23 to go through this statement. If we ourselves see that that is not even

24 sufficient for us, we'll obviously give some more time. But we should be

25 in a position to know whether half an hour is enough too.

Page 5144

1 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to formally request that I have until

3 tomorrow. I want to -- I want to consult with my client. There's a lot

4 of things I want to do with regard to this. I don't want to do it in a

5 half an hour. I can't do it in a half an hour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll decide after half an hour whether there is --

7 whether it's the case to extend it to --

8 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could you

10 give us at least one hour, because I have to translate this for my

11 client. I think that Mr. Ackerman is in exactly the same position.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cayley, any comments from your side?

13 MR. CAYLEY: I leave it in the hands of Your Honours. I don't

14 believe a whole day is required, as Mr. Ackerman is saying, but I leave it

15 in your hands.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One hour. We are going to extend it already

17 to one hour and then we'll take it up from there. Thank you.

18 The sitting is -- will resume at ten to 11.00. Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 9.48 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

22 I hate to disappoint people, but coming in the courtroom, knowing

23 that we are heading to a closed session, and seeing something like 60, 70

24 students in front of me that are going to be disappointed makes me feel

25 disappointed.

Page 5145

1 Anyway, Mr. Ackerman and Madam Fauveau.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I renew my request that we adjourn for

3 the balance of the day. And I just found lying here some additional

4 material. I don't know where it came from. I haven't had a chance to

5 read all the way through it. I assume the Prosecutor gave it to me during

6 the break. It consists of a couple of newspaper articles.

7 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I can help Mr. Ackerman out on this,

8 because as he knows, I wrote to him last week concerning that matter.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I know what they are now.

10 MR. CAYLEY: So in fact, that's material, is it not, that I'm

11 providing you out of courtesy, rather than late disclosure.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: It is.

13 Yes, I got a letter from Mr. Cayley and responded that I wanted

14 this material so I know how I got it now. But I haven't had a chance to

15 look at it and its relevance with regard to this witness.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: This witness is going to be here two or three days,

17 so you have ample time to go through these papers, Mr. Ackerman. Come on.

18 Madam Fauveau.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can only

20 support Mr. Ackerman's request. But in fact, I support it because the

21 amendments concern Brdjanin far more than Talic, as far as I myself am

22 concerned, I have no -- no requests to make.


24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The Chamber having heard the submissions by Defence

Page 5146

1 counsel for Radoslav Brdjanin and General Momir Talic, finding that there

2 are no substantive reasons for adjourning as requested, rejects the

3 request for an adjournment till tomorrow. And we can proceed from there.

4 But I must inform the audience that we -- there has already been a

5 decision that this witness will be heard in closed session, so basically

6 what you will see is the curtains falling down in front of you and you

7 will not be able to follow anything.

8 Yes, Mr. Cayley.

9 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I think I'm going to have to address

10 you on the next matter at least in private session.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll go in private session before we go in

12 closed session.

13 [Private session]

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12 [Closed session]

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12 Page 5152 redacted closed session














Page 5153

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4 --- Whereupon the hearing recessed at 11.13 a.m. To

5 be followed by an Ex Parte Hearing.





















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