Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5445

1 Monday, 13 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar. Could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Brdjanin good morning to you. Can you hear

10 me a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

12 I can hear you and I understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

14 General Talic, good morning to you. Can you hear me in a language

15 that you can understand?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I

17 can hear you in a language that I understand.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And you may sit down.

19 Appearances for the Prosecution.

20 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, assisted by Denise Gustin, case

21 manager, Your Honours. Good morning.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

23 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman

25 along with Tania Radosavljevic and Marela Jevtovic for Mr. Brdjanin.

Page 5446

1 Thank you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

3 Appearances for General Talic.

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

5 Mr. President, Your Honours. I am Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau. I'm assisted

6 by Fabien Masson and I represent General Talic.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning to you, Madam Fauveau.

8 General Talic, again, I am in duty bound to ask you whether you

9 are happy with the situation.

10 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm happy with the

11 situation.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

13 Now, any preliminaries?

14 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So we might as well proceed. Call the witness,

16 please.

17 Ms. Korner, may I ask you how long do you expect your second part

18 of your direct examination to last.

19 MS. KORNER: Probably for the next two days. I intend to take him

20 through as many of the Sanski Most documents as I can because it's a way

21 of dealing with them.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically we need the three -- original three

23 documents --

24 MS. KORNER: If Your Honours still have the list that we provided,

25 you will see that -- I'm going to finish off the actual events of Manjaca

Page 5447

1 this morning. I hope not -- fairly quickly. Then I'm going to go into

2 his investigations into the events of Sanski Most. That will --


4 MS. KORNER: There are -- there are --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I misguided my secretary. Let me see. Because I

6 asked her to bring over Prosecutor's -- no. I think -- yes. Okay. I

7 think --

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's the attachments to his statement,

9 which are the --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It's all right. I did not misguide her. I for

11 a moment, I thought I had.

12 MS. KORNER: And I don't think we'll get to the Sanski Most

13 binders today, in any event.


15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Judge Draganovic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. May I ask you again to make the solemn

19 declaration then, please.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Judge. You may sit down. And welcome

25 back to this Tribunal.

Page 5448

1 Ms. Korner for the Prosecution will resume her direct examination,

2 her examination-in-chief. Thank you.

3 MS. KORNER: She will when she's got her earphones sorted.

4 Sorry, Your Honour. I'm afraid I forgot to put them on. And I

5 noticed when I was reading through Friday's transcript that there were

6 pleas from the interpreters which I never heard because I didn't have my

7 earphones on.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It happens to me sometimes. When the debate is just

9 English, sometimes I take them off myself. And if there is a remark or

10 comment, I miss it.

11 Examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

12 Q. Judge, two weeks ago or whenever it was when you stopped we were

13 just dealing with visitors to Manjaca. And I want to try and complete the

14 Manjaca saga quite shortly this morning.

15 You described the various beatings, the killings, and everything

16 that happened whilst you were there. Can I just bring it down one rung.

17 Were there incidents where it wasn't so much a question of physical

18 violence but in some way incidents designed to humiliate you and your

19 fellow prisoners? You have already described one where you were made to

20 give the three-fingered salute. Were there other incidents like that

21 which you remember?

22 A. From the arrival at the camp itself, there were many such

23 incidents, every day. They happened all the time. There were

24 humiliations of the people in the camps which never ceased. And this took

25 place from when we entered the camp until the people left the camp. I

Page 5449

1 could mention numerous examples of humiliations which I can remember.

2 For example, we always had to have our heads bowed and keep our

3 arms behind our backs from the time we entered the camp. So we weren't

4 allowed to look at anyone. We had to look at the ground. We had to bow

5 our heads down towards the ground. And if a military policeman noticed

6 that someone hadn't bowed his or her head sufficiently, he would approach

7 that person and beat that person up. He would kick that person, punch the

8 person in the chest -- I saw this on several occasions. For example, when

9 I was working in the kitchen and when people came to get food and they

10 were waiting in the line and they all had to keep their heads bowed and

11 weren't allowed to look anywhere but only at the ground. If one of those

12 poor old people forgot what they had to do and raised their head slightly,

13 then the policeman would approach them and beat them severely.

14 On one occasion I was also hit in the face. I was punched in the

15 face very -- very strongly by a policeman while returning from the

16 kitchen -- from the place where the kitchen was located towards the -- the

17 barn, which I was supposed to enter. And if people didn't put their hands

18 behind their backs - this is the position they were supposed to be in --

19 if I may, I would stand up to show you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the position.


23 Q. Can you pause, Judge, for a moment, because we have to describe

24 this to get on to the note. You're bending forwards from the waist with

25 your head bowed -- in a bowed --

Page 5450

1 A. Yes. That's right.

2 Q. Your hands behind your back.

3 A. That's correct.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You may sit down, Judge.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

6 [Interpretation] Later on perhaps after having spent three or four

7 months in the camp, they would introduce certain other measures. For

8 example, if they saw that someone didn't have his arms behind his back,

9 the policeman would order that person to crawl on the ground in the mud.

10 They would be ordered to call in the mud from barn to barn for a distance

11 of about 50 up to 100 metres, and they would be prostrate on the ground,

12 and they would crawl, and they would have to get into the barn by crawling

13 in this way. That was one form of humiliation which was present all the

14 time.

15 And then I can also remember permanent verbal humiliation, so to

16 speak. They told us that we weren't a people of any kind. They said,

17 "What do you want? Do you want a state? You're not going to have one.

18 You'll be like the Palestinians." Then they would bring Serbian bills,

19 and they would show them to us. They would say, "Look, we've got a

20 state. We've got our own money." And then they would bring the number

21 plates of vehicles, and they showed these number plates to us. They would

22 say, "Look, we Serbs, we've got our state. We've got the Serbian

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina. You're going to be killed. All of you here in the

24 camp are going to be killed. No one wants you. We have offered you to

25 others, but no one wants you." But Izetbegovic, who was the Bosniak's

Page 5451

1 president -- "No one wants you apart from Izetbegovic." So these were

2 humiliations, insults that took place on a daily basis. People were

3 insulted individually, and the collective Bosniak people was insulted.

4 They forced us to sing songs which were Chetnik songs. These are songs

5 which were known to be Chetnik songs in the Second World War. We had to

6 sing these songs. The humiliations that took place in these barns where

7 we stayed and in which the conditions were totally inhumane -- well, we

8 were -- we were smaller than mice. Our lives weren't even as -- were not

9 worth the life of a mouse. We had to remain lying on the ground, on

10 concrete. There was water there, excrement -- people's excrement. In

11 those barns -- for example, in the barn number 1, which was the one I was

12 in in the first camp -- there were between 550 and 700 people during

13 different periods of time. In that barn which is shut in the evening at

14 about 5.00 and from which we are no longer allowed to depart after that

15 time, they would bring a -- a container, recipient for -- in which we

16 could relieve ourselves. It would fill up about one hour later. People

17 would step over each other because the barn was full of people. These

18 people were -- it was as if they were dead people. There was no room for

19 you to stand. You had to stand on people, especially in the evening when

20 it wasn't possible to see anything. And the people would have to walk

21 around because they were ill, they were exhausted, they would have to step

22 on each other and they would have to relieve themselves in -- in that

23 pail. So you can imagine in the evening the excrement would reach to

24 about 20 or 30 metres from that pail. And in the morning hours, at about

25 7.00 or 8.00, we would then have to clean that up. But it was impossible

Page 5452

1 for us to clean that up because we didn't have anything to clean it with.

2 We could only put it in some kind of a pail and take it out. And it

3 remained dirty.

4 Every day we went to do hard labour; I've already mentioned this.

5 About 1.000 people went to do hard labour every day.


7 Q. Yes. I think you told us in quite a lot of detail. Thank you.

8 Judge, can I -- two other matters before I deal with the closure

9 of Manjaca. First, you've spoken about the guards, and you described them

10 all as military police. How were you able to distinguish military police

11 from ordinary police?

12 A. The military policemen were wearing army uniform, the olive drab

13 uniform, camouflage uniform. I recognised this as the uniform of the

14 Serbian army or of the former JNA, Yugoslav People's Army. I recognised

15 military policemen on the basis of the insignia they had of the military

16 police. They had white belts, whereas other soldiers didn't have such

17 belts. And on these belts, there was a -- a metal buckle on which it said

18 "military police." It was easy to distinguish them. Whereas the ordinary

19 policemen -- that is to say, the civilian police or the Serbian police,

20 who for some time provided security or -- or went on guard duty outside

21 the camp, they wore blue uniforms, the blue uniforms of the civilian

22 police. There was no difficulty in distinguishing the military from the

23 civilian police.

24 Q. Okay. You say that the civilian police at some stage provided

25 security or performed guard duty outside the camp. Do you mean you saw

Page 5453

1 them?

2 A. Yes, I did. I saw the civilian police when they came, when they

3 arrived, and when they went on duty to provide security. And I saw them

4 from the wire of the camp itself, I saw the positions they were occupying,

5 the guard posts they were occupying. I could recognise many of them

6 because the civilian police, they came to provide external security for a

7 certain time, external security for the camp. And they would take this in

8 turns. They were from -- one group was sent from Sanski Most, one group

9 of Serbian policemen. I don't know if they were there for 15 days or for

10 one month. I can't remember exactly. But before that group, the police

11 or the Serbian policemen were from Kljuc. Later -- I don't know whether

12 they were from Prijedor or Banja Luka, but they came again. And I know

13 that they provided security for the external part of the camp. The camp

14 in fact had three types of -- of wire, three different kinds of a wire

15 fence surrounding it. Inside the camp, only the military policemen would

16 enter the camp, go inside the camp. Between the first and second wire

17 fence, these policemen were on duty, the Serbian policemen. And then

18 there was the third wire fence, and that's the external fence. When I was

19 first brought to the camp, only military policemen were present there. At

20 the time the civilian police were not present.

21 Q. Did the civilian police take part in any of the beatings that

22 you've described, or was it always the military police?

23 A. On the whole, the military policemen were involved in the beatings

24 and members of the army. However, in the beatings that took place at

25 night, members of the Serbian police would also participate in them

Page 5454

1 sometimes, the policemen who were providing security in the camp. In

2 particular, the Serbian policemen from Kljuc would -- would do this. Some

3 of my cousins from Kljuc, relatives from Kljuc, were in the camp with me

4 and they were beaten. In the course of the night, they were taken out and

5 both the military policemen and the civilian policemen would beat them.

6 They were given very severe beatings with rifle butts. They were even

7 beaten -- these civilian policemen would even hit them on the fingers with

8 their rifle butts. They had to put their hands on the -- a table of some

9 kind or some sort of object, and then they would hit their fingers with

10 the rifle butts. I want to say that the policemen from Sanski Most, the

11 civilian policemen who were there providing security, as far as I know

12 they didn't participate in these beatings.

13 Q. Now, finally on this topic, you described the various visitors

14 that came to the camp and the ICRC who paid visits and various, I think,

15 international journalists and politicians. Did you ever speak to any of

16 the internationals, either journalists or politicians who came to the

17 camp?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Did you describe the regime of the camp to them as you've

20 described them to us? In other words, the beatings, the deaths.

21 A. I spoke to the representatives of the International Red Cross

22 about this. But I have to say that we weren't allowed to speak about

23 this. People were afraid to do so because the military policemen were

24 paying attention as to whether anyone had established contact with

25 international delegations, and they didn't allow us to establish such

Page 5455

1 contact, apart from the fact that they had to allow representatives of the

2 International Red Cross to have some kind of contact. And when the

3 representatives of the International Red Cross came and when they entered

4 a barn and closed the door to the barn, then the military policemen

5 weren't allowed to enter the barn.

6 On each occasion I spoke about the conditions in which we were

7 living, and I asked them to get us out of there. I begged them to do so.

8 And on one occasion, I spoke to Mr. Stojan Zupljanin and to Nenad Balaban

9 who had come to visit the camp.

10 Q. Yes. I think you've told us about that one, and you asked about

11 being released.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you in a moment to look at a couple

14 of videos. But before that, can we deal with the closure. I think it's

15 right that you remained in Manjaca until December, when all the prisoners

16 were taken out. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. And were some of the prisoners sent to another camp in a place

19 called Batkovici?

20 A. Yes. The day before the closing of the camp or the release of the

21 first group from the camp, a group of 531 prisoners or persons were

22 singled out. Their names all were called out in each barn. It was a

23 Sunday. And they were told that they would be exchanged. They took these

24 people to the buses that had come from Banja Luka. Since I was working in

25 the kitchen, I was able to see the people get onto the buses. And

Page 5456

1 military policemen waited for them there by the buses. They searched

2 them. And when they got on the buses, the persons again had to bow their

3 heads low down towards the seat. At that time I guessed that they would

4 not be exchanged but removed in a way. I learned that that group had been

5 transferred to another camp only on the day when I myself was transferred

6 to the -- or transported to the Republic of Croatia, that is, the 14th of

7 December. That was the date that I learned that the group had gone to

8 Batkovici.

9 I'm in fact quite sad, because some of the people I know and

10 some of my relatives were killed in Batkovici. I know a person who was

11 released from Manjaca due to his illness, but he waited for two days to be

12 transported and he was killed in Batkovici. His name is Atif Dervisevic.

13 And some other people were killed too.

14 I just wanted to say one more thing: On several occasions before

15 the disbanding of the camps -- of the camp, some groups had been taken

16 ostensibly to be exchanged, but only one exchange actually took place.

17 So people would be brought back to the camp. And then they would tell us

18 the kind of torture and humiliation that they were exposed to during their

19 transport to the exchange. And if you would allow me, I would like to

20 talk merely about one transport involving persons of Croatian ethnic

21 background who were taken to be exchanged towards Knin or, rather, towards

22 Drnis. Their exchange lasted for three days and it failed, so they were

23 returned to the camp.

24 As they got onto the buses, when they were being taken to the

25 exchange -- I mean, at Manjaca -- they had to eat salt. They had to eat a

Page 5457

1 handful of salt en route there. And they were subjected to horrible

2 humiliation. I can mention perhaps a name -- the names of a few of these

3 people who told me that. Since the exchange did not work out, they were

4 taken to Knin, where they were imprisoned for at least two days. The

5 prison, or the area where they were detained, was accessible to the

6 civilians or citizens there so that the Serbs in Knin beat them up.

7 Q. Pause for a moment.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

9 MS. KORNER: She's going to say it's in Croatia. I appreciate

10 that.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [No interpretation]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not having any interpretation.

13 One moment, Judge.

14 MS. KORNER: No I understand the point. It's how does he know as

15 he was in Manjaca. And I think he said already that he was told when they

16 returned.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes and he said also that he is prepared to mention

18 some names as well.

19 MS. KORNER: The --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: My problem -- I understood what Madam Fauveau had

21 stated, but still I'm not receiving any interpretation.

22 MS. KORNER: I wasn't either.

23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Because the witness often

24 speaks -- is he speaking about what he experienced himself or something

25 that he heard about each time he speaks about this, he should state so

Page 5458

1 clearly.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And this particular part is definitely repeating

3 what he was told by others.

4 And perhaps, because you will be asked to mention some names in

5 any case later on, perhaps you could mention some names now while you are

6 giving evidence on this particular event and that would cover -- cover the

7 -- this part completely.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes.

9 Q. Just as I understand it, Judge, the -- what you're now telling us

10 is what you were told by these men when they returned.

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. And could you tell us the names of just some of -- not too many,

13 but two or three of the people who experienced this.

14 A. Yes, I will. First I will mention a person of Croatian ethnic

15 background from Sanski Most. His name is Stipe Catic, who is now

16 currently residing in Australia. He was totally deformed because he had

17 been physically abused so badly and so badly beaten up by Serbs in Knin,

18 because as he told me, the prison where they were was open to them. They

19 had access to it. He also told me that he had to eat a handful of salt en

20 route. The temperatures were quite high, because it was in summer.

21 I will also mention a few Croats, such as Zarko Tole, Vlado Ugrin,

22 Ivica Zrno, Stipo Zrno. These are the people from whom I learnt about

23 their experience on this difficult journey.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Perhaps -- Ms. Korner, you may proceed with

25 the next question. I think he's mentioned enough names.

Page 5459

1 MS. KORNER: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


4 Q. Yes. So you've told us that these men -- the exchange failed.

5 Did you find out why the exchange failed?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. And why was that? It's the first time we've heard about -- really

8 about these exchanges.

9 A. I just remembered that they did not take Zarko Tole to be

10 exchanged. He was a former officer of the Yugoslav People's Army of

11 Croatian ethnic background, and he was in the camp in Manjaca, and the

12 Croatian side sought his exchange. However, they wouldn't let him go -- I

13 mean, the Serbian side.

14 Q. Okay but the other people who were taken off to Knin but were

15 never exchanged, did they -- were they told -- were they told what the

16 reason was for the failure?

17 A. Well, when they came to the place where the exchange was supposed

18 to take place, between Knin and Drnis -- I can't remember the exact

19 place where the location was -- where the exchange was to take place --

20 they had a list on the Croatian side, a list of people. And their

21 representative called out the names of people who were supposed to get off

22 the buses. But since Zarko Tole, who had been detained by the Serbs in

23 the camp, didn't get off the bus, that is why the exchange failed. And

24 the same thing happened several times. And all these people ended up in

25 Batkovici. They were never exchanged.

Page 5460

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. Only in Batkovici. I don't know what happened with them later.

3 Q. As far as you were concerned, I think it's right that you went to

4 Karlovac. And from there, did you go to Germany?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In Germany, were you ill, in fact, and hospitalised?

7 A. Yes. I was hospitalised in Germany for a certain period of time.

8 Q. Now, before I show you the video, I'd like you to look at two

9 documents that you produced for us.

10 MS. KORNER: These are the documents, Your Honour, that were

11 attached to his first statement, I think. It's Attachment number 1 after

12 the first statement. It's a list of people.

13 If the witness could be handed the -- it's not been translated

14 because it's just a list of people.

15 MS. KORNER: I see the -- Madam Registrar shaking her head. But

16 in fact, I'm assured by Ms. Gustin, who's never wrong, that a whole bundle

17 was given which contains these documents. It's marked "Attachment number

18 1," and it should be a list of people.

19 Do Your Honours have this?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I have all of the

21 Attachments, Ms. Korner --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I have all the attachments, but I'm just

24 trying to find this particular one. This is the one which is given the

25 number --

Page 5461

1 MS. KORNER: They've all got "77" on them, because that's the

2 witness number. But it looks like this. It's two pages, a handwritten

3 list.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: No, this particular one I don't seem to have,

5 Ms. Korner.

6 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honours will. But I agree, there are a

7 number of documents. And in future, it will be the rule rather than the

8 exception that documents will be handed out as we get to them, because it

9 is too confusing.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I have Attachment 6 before me, Attachment 7.

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think the simplest thing is -- perhaps

12 I can ask the usher to be kind enough to run off -- one, two, three,

13 four -- however many copies are required. If the interpreters haven't got

14 it -- although I don't think they're going to need it, but ...

15 Can I ask whether Your Honours have the next document that I want

16 to ask him to look at, again, which is a list of people with a drawing

17 like that. It was Attachment 5 is the -- it was split. It's Attachments

18 3 to 5 of the first statement, but it's in fact -- because it's a

19 notebook, the original.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Ms. Korner, I don't have that either.

21 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, I'll come back to that then.

22 We can show the video. The usher when he comes back can copy that. I'm

23 not sure why this has happened, but it can't be helped.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: But I don't recall ever having seen that.

25 MS. KORNER: It was attached, Your Honour would have had it with

Page 5462

1 the first statement. It was attached.


3 MS. KORNER: As I say, Your Honour, I think it's going to be much

4 simpler if we don't hand them out in advance and you get them when the

5 witness gets them.

6 When the usher comes back, perhaps he could run some copies off of

7 this.

8 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to look at now a couple of videos which

9 you've already seen. The first is a video --

10 MS. KORNER: It was part of the video that was taken last year,

11 Your Honour. And I think it's Prosecutor's Exhibit P447.

12 And I wonder if that could be played for the witness to see it.

13 Of course, the video has got to be turned on, so I wonder that --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- where's the usher?

15 MS. KORNER: The usher has gone to copy, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Sir, I think you'll need

17 to --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, I think you will need to push the "video

20 evidence" button in order to see -- to see the video playing.

21 MS. KORNER: All right. Perhaps we could play that.

22 I don't know whether the audiovisual unit had that.

23 Video -- Prosecutor's Exhibit P447, anybody want to play it?

24 Please. Thank you.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 5463

1 MS. KORNER: No. No. I'm sorry. It was set up -- somebody has

2 gone past --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Omarska.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes. It was -- actually -- somebody has spun the

5 video back to the beginning. It was actually set up at the place where I

6 wanted it played.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll get to it.

8 Ms. Korner, it's a short video. We've seen it already --

9 MS. KORNER: It's not, Your Honour. We'd have to spin it right

10 through.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Then let them spin it. I would be able to recognise

12 Manjaca straight away.

13 MS. KORNER: Okay. In that case, can you do it -- fast-forward,

14 please.

15 Your Honour, I know it's a little early. It's easier, I think, if

16 Your Honour takes --

17 Thank you.

18 All right. Can we pause for a moment. Can we go back to what we

19 were looking at for a moment, that house.

20 [Videotape played]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you see it on your monitor, Judge?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes, pause there.

24 Q. Do you recognise that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 5464

1 Q. And what are we looking at there?

2 A. This is the entrance to the Manjaca camp.

3 Q. Thank you. You told us that when the Merhamet delivered clothing

4 or whatever for people, it was put down outside the gate and the guards

5 then went in and inspected it. Are you able to indicate here where it was

6 put down?

7 A. Yes, I can. If you can roll the tape back a little bit, you can

8 see the road leading to this place much better.

9 MS. KORNER: Okay.

10 A. Let's go forwards a bit, because I saw a frame where the location

11 was quite visible.

12 Here, the place where the car just passed. So a truck -- a

13 Merhamet truck would come here where the car is right now, and the

14 packages or parcels that were sent from Banja Luka via the Merhamet were

15 put down there, and then the military policemen would come. They opened

16 all the parcels and searched them, taking whatever they fancied.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MS. KORNER: Can we move the film on, then, please.

19 [Videotape played]


21 Q. And if you want to indicate anything, if you just ask them to

22 stop.

23 A. This is the entrance. Stop. Stop now. So right here, this is

24 the precise location here at the centre. This is where the parcels would

25 be thrown out. And after they were searched by the police, the police

Page 5465

1 officers would submit a list from the camp command to the barns, and

2 people's names were called out. The people who were on the list, they

3 were called to get out and to pick up their parcels. They had to go out

4 in groups with their arms behind their backs and with their heads bowed in

5 a column, and the military police officer would take them to this place

6 where they would take delivery of the parcel or the -- what remained of

7 the contents of the parcel in most cases. And then they would take the

8 parcel back to the barn. And this road to the left, this is the road that

9 everybody used to get to the camp from Banja Luka or from the barracks,

10 that is, 2 or 3 kilometres away from the camp.

11 Q. Yes. That's fine. Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER: Can we move the film on, please.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MS. KORNER: Stop.

15 A. Stop. These are the premises of the military command where the

16 police officers and military officers were accommodated, where they

17 worked, where they interrogated us. They usually took us out in groups,

18 and we would have to stand there for hours with our heads bowed and with

19 our arms behind our backs next to a wall. And then they would take people

20 in, into the corridor and then into a room where they interrogated them.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Of course, many people were beaten during the interrogations,

23 precisely in this area, in these rooms and corridors you can see here.

24 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we move on.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 5466

1 A. These are -- stop. This is the observation post where a soldier,

2 a uniformed soldier in a military uniform was. And from that post, the

3 soldiers were able to observe all the barns in the camp and the movements

4 of all the people in the camp. There was also a dog house and -- or a

5 kennel, and I also want to note that they had trained dogs between the

6 third and the second wire fences where also the guards were. There were

7 several trained dogs, military dogs, there. And I know that they were

8 military dogs because conscripts trained them and fed them.

9 MS. KORNER: Okay. Can we move on.

10 [Videotape played]

11 A. This is where a workshop was. These are the barns.

12 MS. KORNER: Can you just pause there for a moment. Pause,

13 please.

14 Q. Can you indicate -- can we see the barn you were in in this

15 picture or not?

16 A. I think that my barn was the lower one, and this barn to the left

17 should be the upper barn in the camp. So my barn cannot be seen on -- in

18 this frame. There were three barns in a row, and the second barn further

19 down in the background, that's the second camp. So this is the first barn

20 in the second camp.

21 MS. KORNER: Okay. Move on.

22 [Videotape played]

23 A. These are the entrances to the barns. You can see here. The barn

24 consisted of three elements: These boxes to the left and to the right,

25 and there was a concrete strip in the middle. The barns were about 60

Page 5467

1 metres or 80 metres long and 20 to 25 metres wide. Here, this part --

2 stop. This is an area where hay was kept in this military compound. And

3 this area was turned into an area where meals were had. This was a

4 makeshift kitchen, in fact. And in the left part of this area I think

5 there were three field kitchens with wood-fired ovens that were used

6 previously in the Yugoslav People's Army. And they were caldrons that had

7 a capacity of perhaps 100 liters. I cannot be more specific. I don't

8 recall whether there were one or two such caldrons in each kitchen. And

9 food was prepared in the caldrons. And in this area where hay had been

10 kept, there were makeshift trestle tables. And we would be taken out of

11 the barns --

12 Q. Okay. I -- we can see this on an earlier film. So don't worry.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes. If we could just move on.

14 [Videotape played]

15 A. This is -- no. This is another camp. Sorry. That's another

16 camp.

17 Those are the other barns there. They were separated by barbed

18 wire. There were guards there. And we had no access to that place. We

19 were in a -- in a small area. So in two rooms, 100 by 100 metres. One of

20 the camps had these dimensions and the other had the same dimensions. All

21 of us were there. For a certain period of time, there were 2.500 of us.

22 And then when people came from Prijedor and Omarska, and from other

23 places, there were 4.000 of us --

24 MS. KORNER: Pause the film.

25 Q. I'm sorry. The film has gone on. But you've been describing the

Page 5468

1 accommodation; isn't that right?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Don't worry about the -- the bits we've gone through, because

4 we've been told what they are.

5 The church we can see, is that the one that you were talking about

6 that you were forced to build?

7 A. Yes, it is. This is a church which was built by the inmates of

8 the camp. People could even recognise some of the material. For example,

9 the copper that was used to cover the church, this had been taken -- this

10 copper had been taken from a mosque that had been destroyed in Pudin Han

11 in the Kljuc municipality. We built this church, and we completed it.

12 And I can remember when the church was opened. On that occasion, a group

13 of inmates was taken there. They were still trying to complete the

14 church, and they were very afraid. They feared for their lives, because

15 they were the subject of threats. They -- they were told that they would

16 be killed there. Fortunately no one was killed.

17 Q. All right. That completes that film.

18 I now want you to look, please, at a second video that was taken

19 in August 1992, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 468. Again, it's been set

20 up to the place where it ought to start.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MS. KORNER: Just -- I'm sorry. Could we -- could we run it back

23 marginally. And what's happened to the sound? Go back just one shot

24 further. There should be Christiane Amanpour standing there.

25 Yes. Okay. Could we stop there. I don't know. Is there any

Page 5469

1 sound available? Possible? Apparently not. All right.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MS. KORNER: Pause, please, the film.

4 Q. Do you recognise anybody here?

5 A. I can recognise this. This is the barn that I stayed in. I can

6 recognise this man in white -- in a white T-shirt and with a moustache,

7 he is from Gornja Sanica in Kljuc municipality. I can recognise these

8 people, some of them here on the left. I stayed here to the left in the

9 corner, not in the central part but right down below to the left.

10 Q. We can see that when this newsreel was taken, all of you are

11 sitting with your hands round your knees and your shoes off. Was this

12 something that just happened that day, or was that a normal way you had to

13 sit?

14 A. When a group of journalists came or camera men, that is the usual

15 way in which we would sit. This was a -- a little later. I can also

16 recognise this gentleman here who is standing next to the person in a

17 white T-shirt. He is Ramiz Grapkic. I think he has from Tuzla.

18 MS. KORNER: All right. Let's move on. Can we move the video.

19 Please.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MS. KORNER: Pause, please. Pause. No back to the wire.

22 Q. First of all, I think there's no dispute that the man to the left

23 of Paddy Ashdown as we look at him was the camp commandant, Colonel

24 Popovic; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, he's the camp commander, Bozidar Popovic, a JNA colonel.

Page 5470

1 Q. And what fence are we now looking at? Can you tell from this?

2 A. This is the very entrance to the camp, the entrance for us

3 inmates. It's the route of access for the military police, and it is on

4 the corner behind the command. And it can be seen from the observation

5 post. It's about -- well, between 30 and 50 metres from the observation

6 post. That's the main entrance to the camp, to camp number 1.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. KORNER: All right. If we can move the film.

9 [Videotape played]

10 A. [In English] Stop. [Interpretation] So this is what the area

11 looked like in the -- in the barns. You can see the earth on the ground

12 and people lying there. They would sit there. They would lie there.

13 That's where they stayed. Their movements were restricted. They couldn't

14 leave those places. And this is where we spent our time. We spent all

15 our time if we didn't go to -- to do work. We could only leave if we had

16 to go and relieve ourselves. And on these occasions, we had to inform

17 someone of this, and up to ten of us would have to line up and leave and

18 relieve ourselves.

19 MS. KORNER: Okay. Can we move the film on, then, please.

20 [Videotape played]

21 "Here the prisoners live, eat, and sleep 24 hours a day. Most of

22 these men just have arrived two days from the camp at Omarska. Their

23 faces still haunted by memories they could not dare relate in the presence

24 of their guard. For five minutes Paddy Ashdown was allowed to speak

25 privately to the men."

Page 5471

1 MS. KORNER: Can we pause there for a moment, please. The

2 commentator there say that is Paddy Ashdown was able to speak privately

3 to some of the people, the men there. If private conversation was

4 allowed -- in other words, the guards were out of earshot -- would people

5 describe what had happened or what was happening to them?

6 A. As I've already said, we were very afraid. They were observing us

7 all the time, the military police observed us all the time. And all those

8 who entered the camp, the military police, several of them, would

9 accompany them, both from -- in front and from behind. It was very

10 difficult to communicate with anyone.

11 Q. Now, these men apparently came from Omarska. And we've seen

12 the -- and we're going to see another shot of the condition of those men,

13 the -- the thinness. Were there people like that in Manjaca before the

14 arrival of the Omarska prisoners?

15 A. Yes. We were all like that. I've already said that everyone lost

16 weight. Dozens of kilos. It's difficult to say how many exactly, but it

17 was -- well, people would lose between 20 and 40 kilos. During the first

18 month, I lost 26 kilos.

19 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we move the film on, please. And if

20 there's anything you want to say, just stay stop.

21 [Videotape played]

22 "The camp commandant had promised Mr. Ashdown total freedom to see

23 anything he wanted."

24 A. [In English] Stop. [Interpretation] Well, you see, we couldn't

25 speak to anyone. The camp commander is here. And he was the one who

Page 5472

1 would speak every time delegations would come in. He said that we were

2 extremists, which was not correct. He said that we were prisoners of war,

3 and that was not correct. We were civilians who had been taken from our

4 houses, from our flats. People were -- were arrested in their fields. So

5 he misrepresented us. He said, "Well, we have offered them to others, but

6 no one wants them. No one wants to take them." And this was pure

7 propaganda. It was a lie. I remember that he said, "Well, as you can

8 see, the conditions they live in here are good. Our Serbian prisoners who

9 are being held by them --" and then he mentioned Zenica -- he said that

10 this were being held in a tunnel of some kind and said that their

11 conditions were -- were far worse than the conditions in this camp.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. Naturally we wouldn't allowed -- we couldn't react to this.

14 And just one other thing, if I may. I think that someone came

15 from the United Nations for human rights. I don't know whether it was

16 Mr. Mazowietsky or someone else. I can't remember right now. He came

17 with a large group of journalists. We knew that he was supposed to come,

18 but they brought him in around midnight. I don't know why -- why he was

19 brought in at night like that.

20 MS. KORNER: Okay. Can we move the film.

21 [Videotape played]

22 "And he was told that wasn't possible. Even during Mr. Ashdown's

23 visit, time was limited to a mere half hour and access was limited to a

24 only a few prisoners. As he left, he said however bleak things seem to

25 be, this camp did appear to be properly run.

Page 5473

1 "Clearly I have had access to those prisoners without

2 [indiscernible]. I detest their conditions. I find them deeply moving.

3 They've had an appalling time in Omarska from where they've come from. I

4 think it's a tremendous achievement on the part of the press to give

5 exposure. And very probably have saved very many prisoner's lives. But

6 every prisoner I spoke to here without the guard presence has told me the

7 conditions were not what they want them to be but they're a hell of a lot

8 better than what they were before.

9 "With the visiting politician gone, what these men have suffered

10 in the past remains largely unspoken. Caroline Tera, Manjaca prison camp

11 in Bosnia.

12 "Every run camp in Serbian held northern Bosnia authorities say

13 they hold --"

14 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think this is just the same film. We can

15 stop that. Thank you. And stop the video.

16 Q. What was said there by Mr. Ashdown, the politician, and which I

17 think you could probably read in the subtitles was that he was told that

18 conditions were better than in Omarska. Did you speak to the prisoner who

19 had come from Omarska when they arrived?

20 A. Yes, I did speak to them.

21 Q. And as far as they were concerned, were conditions better here in

22 Manjaca than in Omarska?

23 A. It's very difficult for me to draw parallel between those two

24 camps.

25 Q. I don't --

Page 5474

1 A. To compare these two camps.

2 Q. I'm not asking you compare them, because obviously you weren't at

3 Omarska. All I want to know is did the prisoners who came from

4 Omarska, did they tell you that they felt conditions were better here in

5 Manjaca than in Omarska?

6 A. At that time when they came, yes, without a doubt the conditions

7 were better, because in Omarska there was monstrous -- monstrosities of

8 various kinds. There were people who were killed, and we knew about this,

9 even before this group came -- even before this group from Omarska

10 arrived. When the journalists came to our camp for the first time, I

11 remember that I myself and -- asked some of the journalists to go to

12 Omarska. We asked the journalists to go to Omarska. We told them that

13 the crimes being committed there were more serious, that people were being

14 killed en masse over there.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. And --

17 Q. I don't want -- I'm sorry. I don't want to get sidetracked off

18 Manjaca. But I just wanted to know. So they, as you understood it,

19 conditions were much better than in Omarska.

20 All right. We can now look at -- and that -- perhaps to wind up

21 this topic, the two documents that I wanted you to look at earlier.

22 Could you be handed first the list which is marked "Attachment 1,"

23 which will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 774, please.

24 Now, can you tell us what that list is, Judge, first of all?

25 A. This is a list which was compiled in December 1992 after a first

Page 5475

1 group -- the first group of inmates had been released in November -- I

2 think that was on the 14th of November -- that's when the first group was

3 released. And afterwards, they transferred some people from camp number 2

4 to camp number 1. And this is a list of the people who were transferred.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. From camp 2 to camp 1.

7 Q. Who compiled the list?

8 A. This list was compiled by an inmate who was on duty in the barn.

9 Q. And was this an official list, or was this something he just did

10 for himself?

11 A. This was an internal list of the person who was on duty in the

12 barn and who kept a record.

13 Q. And did he provide you with a copy of that list?

14 A. Yes, he did.

15 Q. All right. Could you look at the second document, please, which

16 were -- it's in fact three separate attachments, 3, 4, and 5. But in --

17 as we'll see --

18 And I wonder. Before they're hand --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me for just a minute.

20 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know if that first document P774 is both

23 Attachment 1 and Attachment 2 or just Attachment 1.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Attachment 2 seems to me to be another document

25 very similar. But of course we don't have an explanation as yet. It's

Page 5476

1 again, a list of 76 names.


3 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's marked "Attachment 2," so it should be

4 seen, at least. I look at it as separate from Attachment 1.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: So do I, Your Honour. That's just what I was

6 inquiring about.

7 MS. KORNER: No. I think it's all part of the same document.

8 Your Honour, it's my fault. Attachments 1 and 2 --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So please, let's go ahead with Attachment 2 first

10 before you proceed with Attachment 3, so that the witness will have a look

11 at it and confirm to us whether this is -- in fact, from the top of the

12 document you see that there is an indication log -- which is logo 2 to

13 logo 1.

14 MS. KORNER: A logo is a prison.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. So from camp 2 to camp 1. And this

16 is in December 1992.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think the two pages -- can you confirm that,

18 please, Judge. The two pages that you were handed which have the numbers

19 00873151 and 152 are part and parcel of the same document. Is that right?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Thank you?

22 MS. KORNER: I'm grateful to Mr. Ackerman. I had missed the fact

23 that there were two.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So do you want them marked as

25 together --

Page 5477

1 MS. KORNER: Together.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: As Exhibit P774 consisting of two pages.

3 MS. KORNER: I doe, please.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay previously as Attachment 1 and Attachment 2,

5 Madam Registrar. Thank you.

6 MS. KORNER: And now could you be handed Attachments 3, 4, and 5.

7 Q. Now, can you confirm, sir, before we look at them that these are

8 all part of the same document which was a notebook.

9 A. Yes, that's right. This is one document. It's a notebook. The

10 original notebook exists.

11 Q. The original is where these days?

12 A. It's in Sanski Most.

13 Q. All right. And I think -- is this right -- this was just an

14 ordinary, as it were, school notebook, which is why we have this rather

15 odd drawing on the front; is that right?

16 A. This is a notebook which the camp commander gave to the person on

17 duty in the barn, because each barn had someone -- an inmate who was on

18 duty. And this person would be positioned -- would -- right next to the

19 entrance to the barn. And the camp command would establish contact

20 through this person. So the person on duty would be given an empty

21 notebook of this kind in which he was to keep records on the inmates in

22 the barn.

23 Q. And which --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, it's almost half past 10.00.

25 MS. KORNER: I'm just going to finish --

Page 5478

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient for you.

2 MS. KORNER: I'm just going to finish this, Your Honour. Thank

3 you.

4 Q. And this contains records for which barn and at what period?

5 A. These records were compiled by Zukic Zikret who was on duty in

6 the barn in which I was detained. This was in camp number 1. The records

7 were brought up to date with the situation on the 14th of October, 1992.

8 Q. Thank you. Can we just then quickly look at one page, the

9 beginning of Attachment 3, the B's. We see number 59 crossed through

10 and some writing. What does that mean? I think it's Besirevic. Mesud.

11 A. Mesud Besirevic, number 59 it's been crossed through. And there

12 was is a note that says he was exchanged on the 31st of October, 1992. I

13 know Mesud Besirevic. He is someone from Sanski Most. And I know that

14 he was exchanged in Vlasic.

15 Q. And if we look at the page with the number 00873155 under D's, I

16 think we see your name and other Draganovics.

17 A. That's right. Under number 132 you can see my name and the

18 registration number of the International Red Cross, which is 200.729.

19 And below you can see the names of some of my relatives from Kljuc,

20 Kemal Draganovic, Hasan Draganovic, Muharem Draganovic, Muslia Draganovic.

21 They were in my barn.

22 Q. And was your relative Muslia exchanged on the 14th of November,

23 1992?

24 A. He wasn't exchanged. He was released then, because on the 14th of

25 November, 1992 -- was that the date? Yes, I think it was. He was

Page 5479

1 released with the first group, and he was moved to the Republic of Croatia

2 to Karlovac in Croatia. At the moment, he is in Switzerland.

3 Q. Yes. Thank you very much?

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that would then be convenient.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a 30-minute break. Thank you.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.


10 Q. Now, Judge, I think you returned to Sanski Most in October of

11 1995, the 15th of October.

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. Was that very close on the heels of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

14 when they retook the town?

15 A. The Republika Srpska army had gone, had left Sanski Most, and the

16 BH army took control of Sanski Most, the entire territory, except for a

17 small portion of the territory of the municipality of Sanski Most.

18 Q. So between 1992 and 1995, did Sanski Most remain under the control

19 of the Republika Srpska authorities?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And as you told us, you were immediately almost reappointed as a

22 judge. And did you take part thereafter in a number of investigations

23 into the events that had taken place?

24 A. In fact, my mandate as a judge never ceased in the period between

25 1992 and 1995, because officially I continued to be the judge and, in

Page 5480

1 fact, the President of the court, since I was elected by the parliament of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. However, the Serbian authorities removed me from the

3 court illegally, and then they unlawfully arrested me and tortured me in

4 the camp, and they also destroyed my property. The same happened to

5 thousands of non-Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats.

6 Q. Yes. All right. Now, I wanted to deal, please, with -- in

7 various separate topics your investigations. First of all, did you

8 personally go to buildings which had been occupied by members of the SDS

9 officials and army?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you -- I want to show you, first of all, please, a document

12 which was marked "Attachment number 6" to the first statement, which I

13 hope people have. It's a Crisis Staff decision. Yes. And it's --

14 yes, I see everybody has got it.

15 Could you be handed, please, the B/C/S version.

16 MS. KORNER: And I think we'd better have the English version put

17 up on the ELMO, please. And that will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 775.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner. I'm hoping that I'm not

19 confusing matters. But I do have a 7.77 witness Attachment 6.

20 MS. KORNER: Mm-hm.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: With number -- disclosure number 01104328.

22 MS. KORNER: I don't know what that is. It must be one of the

23 later statements.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No. This is a special session of the executive

25 committee.

Page 5481

1 MS. KORNER: Yes. That's not it, Your Honour. It's the one you

2 can see on the ELMO.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So we don't have this. Because this is what is

4 marked Attachment 6.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. But each statement regrettably --

6 it was perhaps not the most helpful --


8 MS. KORNER: Each statement has an attachment. I know that Your

9 Honour has got this one. But Your Honour, it's on the ELMO --


11 MS. KORNER: -- In any event. Because that was -- the confusion

12 slightly arose because there were two lists of documents going to be

13 referred to.

14 Q. Judge, that's a decision of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff dated the

15 7th of May -- so before you arrest -- which orders Judge Stanic to carry

16 out necessary preparations for the establishment of a wartime court in

17 accordance with the state of war declared in the Autonomous Region of

18 Krajina. And there's a stamp on the original with a signature.

19 I think you already spoke about this, but Judge Stanic was a

20 judge, I think, who worked with you in the Sanski Most court. Is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. Judge Radovan Stanic was one of the judges

23 while I was the President of the court. And according to the decision of

24 the Crisis Staff, I was removed from office and he was appointed the

25 President of the court. And he took over the judiciary in Sanski Most on

Page 5482

1 the day when I was, so to speak, expelled by force from the court. And

2 that was the 15th of May, 1992. And I already spoke about that.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it might be helpful if -- if the

5 witness were advised that we have heard several times now that he was

6 removed from the court and expelled from the court and what date it

7 happened so he doesn't have to make it a part of every answer that he

8 gives.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.


11 Q. Judge, did you personally find a copy of this particular decision,

12 or was it actually given to you?

13 A. I personally found this decision.

14 Q. And where did you find that?

15 A. I found it in the court building when I came back to the court. I

16 started working on the 16th of October, 1995, and I found this order among

17 the documents in the files in my office where until that time -- or

18 rather, until the 10th of October, Mr. Radovan Stanic was.

19 Q. Did Judge Stanic ever come to Manjaca?

20 A. Yes. I saw him myself.

21 Q. Right. That's all I want to ask you about that document.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I've been reminded -- I thought that I

23 had made the last document we looked at an exhibit -- that is, the

24 notebook from Manjaca.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes. It hasn't been

Page 5483

1 given --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

3 MS. KORNER: It hasn't been given a number.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: No. It hasn't been given a number. In fact, I put

5 P775 with a question mark, because I would imagine you would follow the

6 same sequence and that would be 775.

7 But while you are putting -- bringing this up, may I also draw

8 your attention to what's going to happen with this page, which is

9 Attachment 5, and also Attachment 4, which seems to be --

10 MS. KORNER: It's all the same --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So this all will be P775.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes. The Attachments 3, 4, and 5 are one book.


14 MS. KORNER: And will be P775. In which case the document I've

15 just referred to, could that be made instead P776.


17 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

18 Q. Now, I want you to look, please, at a set of photographs, please.

19 MS. KORNER: And we've -- Your Honour, although these are copied,

20 we've got some colour copies, because otherwise it's very difficult to

21 see.

22 Can I just ask whether the Defence counsel were given this. I

23 have a feeling they were earlier, the colour copies of the photographs

24 found.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: How would I know? I can't see them.

Page 5484

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't quite hear you, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MS. KORNER: He said, "How would I know? I can't see them." So

3 I'm giving them to him.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: They don't at all look familiar to me, so I don't

5 think we have them.

6 MS. KORNER: Okay. I'll hand them out to the defence. They're

7 the colour copies of the ones that were attached.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry. They're attached to what, Ms. Korner?

9 MS. KORNER: They were attached to statement -- it's Attachment 1

10 to the third statement, which was dated the 7th of July, 2000.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. I have them. Just -- you know, you can

12 hardly see them. But I have them.

13 MS. KORNER: That's why we're handing out colour copies.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Right. Thank you.

15 MS. KORNER: And if the witness could be handed them as well.

16 Q. Now, these are photographs -- I'm going to ask you to identify who

17 or what they represent in a moment but are these photographs that you

18 personally found?

19 A. Yes. These are the photographs that I personally found.

20 Q. And where did you find them?

21 A. Photograph number 1 --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Are the two defendants in a position to

23 follow this part of the debate? Can you see these photos.

24 MS. KORNER: We can put them on them on the ELMO.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Because they have a right to see which photos

Page 5485

1 we're talking about. You can't see them.

2 They are going to put the photos on the ELMO so that you can see

3 them and follow the debate.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you.

5 Q. Photograph number 1 is of whom?

6 A. This photograph depicts Nedeljko Rasula. He was the president

7 of the Crisis Staff and he was the president of the Serbian municipality

8 of Sanski Most. He was also deputy in the republican assembly in the

9 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina --

10 Q. Yes. You've told us that. I'm sorry. Could you just identify

11 the photographs.

12 A. [In English] Okay.

13 Q. That photograph of Rasula, where did you find that?

14 A. [Interpretation] I found this photograph in his home in Capalj.

15 Q. And the second photograph, who does that depict? And can you give

16 us an idea of when it was taken? If you can't, say so.

17 A. Photographs number 2, 3, 4, and 5 come -- were made, I think, in

18 1995. They were made in Sanski Most.

19 Q. And how can you identify the year?

20 A. Because I know that an assembly, a Serbian assembly was held in

21 Sanski Most in 1995. And these photographs are -- were taken at that

22 session of the assembly in the Sanus Hotel. I'm able to recognise it.

23 And I know from the documents relating to the assembly in Sanski Most what

24 it was about.

25 Q. Okay. Can we just perhaps out of interest sake really, then, just

Page 5486

1 identify --

2 MS. KORNER: Go back to photograph number 2, please.

3 Q. And you can identify -- the gentleman with the glasses as we look

4 at it to the left of the three in the front row, who's that? Do you

5 know?

6 A. That's Ostojic.

7 Q. And Ostojic was ...? Just remind everybody.

8 A. I think he was a minister in the Serbian government -- in the Serb

9 government in Pale.

10 Q. The photograph in the middle -- or I think it's fairly evident who

11 that is. The lady.

12 A. This is Mrs. Biljana Plavsic.

13 Q. Next to her -- I don't think we need bother to identify

14 Mr. Karadzic.

15 What about the military man who we can see talking to another

16 military?

17 A. That's Mladic. General Mladic.

18 Q. And do you know who's sitting to Mladic's left -- the right, as we

19 look at it?

20 A. I'm not quite sure, but I think that's General Colic. But I'm not

21 sure.

22 Q. Okay. Then very quickly, can we look at the third, fourth and --

23 well, the third and fourth, really, because the fifth is the same. To the

24 far left of the picture as we look at it -- I don't think there's any

25 dispute that's Krajisnik. Do you know who the woman is in the middle of

Page 5487

1 that dinner table?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. And then we have Karadzic again. And the person to his right do

4 you know -- or his left?

5 A. To Karadzic's left is Nedeljko Rasula.

6 Q. So that's what Rasula looked like in 1995. So the photograph 1

7 was clearly an earlier photograph, was it? He's completely grey-haired in

8 that one.

9 A. Yes. I also want to say that Nedeljko Rasula died his hair

10 before.

11 Q. Okay. And then I don't think we need trouble with the next two

12 photographs.

13 Photographs 2, 3, 4, and 5, where did you find those?

14 A. I found those photographs in the office of Nedeljko Rasula in the

15 Municipal Assembly building of the Sanski Most municipality.

16 Q. Yes. Thank you.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be made Prosecutor's Exhibit

18 4 -- I'm sorry, 777. And a very appropriate number it is, too.

19 Q. Okay. Now, you've already looked at the diary for Rasula. I'm

20 not going to ask you to go through that any more than you have, because

21 another witness can deal with matters in it. I'm not sure whether we gave

22 it a number though.

23 MS. KORNER: Can we just check that, when the witness looked at

24 it.

25 Yes. I'm -- Mr. Ackerman and Ms. Gustin can confirm, 759.

Page 5488

1 Q. Where was that diary found and by whom, Judge?

2 A. I personally found the diary.

3 Q. And where did you find that? At his home?

4 A. I found it in Nedeljko Rasula's home in Capalj near Sanski Most.

5 Q. Now, I want you to look, please, next at a very large map -- which

6 I hope we've got here.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours haven't got copies, but I think we're

8 going to have to somehow hold it up.

9 Yes. There is -- Your Honour, there's no way of shrinking this,

10 as you can see.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman has found a way. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: It just makes sense to me that maybe the usher and

13 Ms. Gustin could hold it along the back wall here so it could be

14 photographed properly and the witness could turn around and see -- I don't

15 know. But I can't see it from over there.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see what the importance of this map is to

17 start with.

18 MS. KORNER: Just if Your Honours -- I'll hold it for the moment,

19 and then we can see it. The Defence have been given copies. You will see

20 all kinds of markings.


22 MS. KORNER: Does Your Honour want to have a closer look?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I want to know what's the importance of this

24 map. I see all the markings from here. Of course, I can't --

25 MS. KORNER: Well, in that case, I'll ask the witness to explain,

Page 5489

1 and then you may want to have another look.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exactly.

3 I think, usher, you need someone to help you and -- or else the

4 witness -- it will be opened and the witness --

5 First of all, have you seen that map before? Have you been shown

6 that map before?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have seen this map.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And have you made markings on --


10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. The map is right behind you.


12 Q. And you'd like to turn around, just have a look, and tell us what

13 that map is and where you found it -- or where you saw it.

14 A. Your Honours, if I may be permitted to stand.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And if you need -- if you need the pointer, take it

18 from where it is. Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the map depicting the war

20 career of the 6th Serbian Sanski Most Infantry Brigade.


22 Q. Before you go on is that correct the same as the 6th Krajina

23 Brigade?

24 A. Yes. That's the same brigade.

25 Q. Thank you. You say it depicts the war career. First of all,

Page 5490

1 where did you first see that map?

2 A. The original of this map was found by me personally in October

3 1995. Yes, that's correct, 1995. I found it in a house. That was the

4 Nezirevic family home. The house is located in the Mahala part of Sanski

5 Most. And it was used for military purposes, so to speak, because the

6 officers of the 6th Krajina Brigade came there and held -- held their

7 meetings there. And this is where high-ranking politicians also came:

8 Karadzic and others from Banja Luka.

9 Q. Okay. Let's -- you can sit down for a moment and so can

10 Ms. Gustin and the usher, then. The map -- the map itself. When you

11 found it, was it on the wall?

12 A. Yes the map was on the wall.

13 Q. And were those markings that we can see on it already there when

14 you found it? In other words, not done by you or anyone else.

15 A. These markings were on the map, and it's the original map. No one

16 other than the person who made the map made these markings.

17 Q. When you say it's the original, I think the original one that you

18 found is in Sanski Most and this is a photocopy.

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And you say that it showed the war career of the brigade. By

21 that, do you mean it showed where they -- where they operated during the

22 three-year period?

23 A. That's right.

24 MS. KORNER: All right. I don't know -- do Your Honours want to

25 have a closer look at it?

Page 5491

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there anything in particular which is more

3 relevant than the rest?

4 MS. KORNER: The markings.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The markings.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But those with can have a look at later.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm not going to -- Your Honours are

9 going to hear evidence from an expert of what happened in these various

10 places.


12 MS. KORNER: But it shows where the brigade operated and -- I

13 mean, the Prosecution case is --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We could see on the monitor, because it was being

15 focussed on some of the markings. So we have an idea of what that is all

16 about. And then we will have a closer look without wasting or taking

17 time.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Of the trial.

20 MS. KORNER: I mean, Your Honour, we're going to be hearing

21 evidence about the military in particular.


23 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Gustin, and I thank you, usher.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that will become Prosecutor's Exhibit

Page 5492

1 P778.

2 Q. Now, I want to move, please, to other aspects of your

3 investigations. And I want to start with the declarations of death that

4 were issued by the Sanski Most court. I think you provided to the Office

5 of the Prosecutor a copy of what's called "The law on administrative

6 procedure."

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we've got copies -- we think that was

8 omitted so we've got copies here. Only -- the only part which has been

9 translated is relevant to this issue. I mean, it's a huge book, as Your

10 Honours can imagine.

11 And Your Honour, we do -- we do actually have the book here. I

12 mean, it's not -- I mean, not in court. But it's actually -- if anybody

13 needs it, it's in the possession of the evidence unit. But a photocopy

14 has just been produced.

15 And if the witness can have, please -- the Defence should have it,

16 because it was attached to one of the statements. There are enough

17 copies, if you want it. It was attached to Attachment 1 to the statement

18 of June 2000.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to correct you. This

20 is a law on out-of-court proceedings. This is a law which is in force.

21 And on the basis of this law, we conducted proceedings in order to declare

22 that missing people were dead.

23 Q. Yes. Can we just look very quickly at the relevant part. If you

24 could turn to Article 60 --

25 MS. KORNER: Which is where the translation starts, Your Honour.

Page 5493



3 Q. -- Which states that is "in the procedure of declaring missing

4 persons dead and proving death, the Court will decide on declaring missing

5 persons dead and on the proof of death."

6 And then in Article 61, it sets out which individuals may be

7 declared dead upon application to the Court. Then we see that for someone

8 who's been missing for five years and who's over 60, someone who's been no

9 reports over five years and is likely no longer to be living, individuals

10 who disappear in what could be described by -- what is described by

11 insurers as acts of God, shipwreck, traffic accident, et cetera, for six

12 months. And then item 4, "an individual who disappeared in a war or in

13 relation to events of war and about whose existence there have been no

14 reports a year after the cessation of animosities."

15 Now, Judge, was that the section that was applied to people who

16 were missing as a result of the events between 1992 and 1995?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I know the procedure is set out, but it's probably quicker if

19 you just describe to us the procedure and then we'll look at an example of

20 one of the documents. If someone had been missing and wished to obtain a

21 declaration of death, what was the procedure that had to be followed?

22 A. Well, the proposal to declare someone dead was usually submitted

23 by members of the nuclear family, by a spouse or by children. If the

24 missing person was not married or had no children, then the parents would

25 submit this proposal to the Court. Upon receiving this proposal -- and

Page 5494

1 the birth certificate had to be attached to the proposal, the birth

2 certificate of the missing person in question, and other evidence would

3 also be suggested. Usually these were witnesses who knew something about

4 the disappearance of the missing person. In such cases, the judge would

5 then schedule a hearing, at which he would take a statement from those

6 submitting the proposal and then would carry out an investigation, would

7 examine the registry of births and deaths and other document if they had

8 been attached to the proposal.

9 The judge would then question the witnesses, if witnesses had been

10 suggested. If the witnesses could confirm that someone had been killed

11 and confirm that this information was reliable, if they could confirm that

12 the missing person had been killed at some location, and if the Court

13 considered these facts to have been determined, it would then take a

14 decision in which it would declare that this person died on a certain date

15 and at a certain location. If there was no information or no witnesses to

16 -- who could testify that the person had died, then the Court would

17 publish an announcement in official papers in which it would ask for --

18 anyone who had any information to provide the Court with this information

19 about the missing person. And after the legal period had expired, the

20 Court would issue a decision in which it would declare this person to be

21 dead -- or rather, missing.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner.

23 Judge, just a simple clarification. I see that the text of this

24 law in the Serbian language and in Cyrillic script was published in

25 Sarajevo in 1989. And we're now talking of 1995. Did this law -- this

Page 5495

1 particular law get any -- get amended in the meantime between 1989 and

2 1995, or was it identical as we see it in -- in the document that you have

3 before you?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This law was adopted in 1992, and

5 its validity was extended in Bosnia and Herzegovina.


7 Q. So in -- I think what the learned Judge wants to know -- in 1995,

8 was that the law that was applied and thereafter?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: With no amendments to it?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.


13 MS. KORNER: Now, Your Honours, there's a schedule that's been

14 prepared and given to my learned friends of all the declarations of

15 death that were issued, which we will just be asking to be produced. If

16 there's no dispute about this procedure, I don't propose to go into any

17 further details other than look at one example. Perhaps I could just be

18 assisted on this from the Defence. Is this procedure in any way the

19 subject of dispute, or is it going to be disputed that these declarations

20 of death were lawfully and properly issued? That's all.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think disputed would describe anything that

22 I'm going to do. I may ask some questions about it. But I think

23 "disputed" probably doesn't describe it.

24 MS. KORNER: Okay.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Fauveau?

Page 5496

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree with what

2 Mr. Ackerman has said.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So you know what to do, Ms. Korner.

4 MS. KORNER: I do. Thank you.

5 Q. Can we just look, Judge, please, at one example of these -- these

6 declarations of death that you were issued -- that you were issuing,

7 which - if I can find my own copy - sorry, Your Honour. I filed

8 everything. Because I filed it so carefully that I --

9 Yes. These were not attached. They're documents which I hope

10 Your Honours have got. They were marked 9.6 in the disclosure, 9.7. And

11 they were handed in. There was a bundle -- it looks like this. A small

12 bundle.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's this one.

14 MS. KORNER: And if the witness could have, again, please, the --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: What number does it have, Ms. Korner?

16 MS. KORNER: 9.7, which is the B/C/S version.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

18 MS. KORNER: And 9.6 -- no. Sorry. 9.7 is a birth certificate.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. That's exactly the -- it's a birth

20 certificate.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes. And 9.6 is one of the rulings.

22 I see Mr. Ackerman is on his feet.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know -- I don't know where to find these,

25 Your Honour. I may have them, but I don't believe I have them here. I

Page 5497

1 don't know when they were given to me or how they were given to me or ...

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We have had them for quite some time now. That's a

3 day or two before the witness started giving evidence three weeks ago.

4 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Well, Your Honour, with

5 the Defence we simply --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MS. KORNER: With a list. We supplied them with a list. And this

8 was handed out -- whenever it was. It says 9.6 -- 9.7, 9.6. We can put

9 it on the ELMO, and we'll supply Mr. Ackerman with a copy -- with another

10 copy if he can't find it.

11 Could we put up first, please, the 9.6, which is headed

12 "Municipal court in Sanski Most, 20th of October, 1997," and if the

13 witness could be given the B/C/S version.

14 Thank you. Yes.

15 Q. Is this an example of one of your -- the rulings which relates to

16 a gentleman named Muhamed Smajlovic?

17 A. It is. This is a decision of the municipal court in Sanski Most,

18 which bears the number 714 through 97. And it was issued on the 20th of

19 October, 1997 at a hearing which was held on that date.

20 Q. And just so we can see the procedure, the -- if we go to -- if we

21 could move it up to "statement of reasons." And if we could move the

22 statement of reasons slightly up. Yes. The Court heard -- it says,

23 "Ruling on the proposal.." The Court heard the proposed witnesses and

24 inspected the attached birth certificate of Muhamed Smajlovic. It heard

25 witnesses who said that Mr. Smajlovic was taken away from Kotor Varos by

Page 5498

1 what's described as Serbo-Chetnik military units with other villages to

2 the hospital and killed there. And there are -- there's a various

3 description of what had happened, that the bodies having been buried had

4 been dug up and incinerated in the saw mill in Kotor Varos. And then

5 the -- over the next page, we can see that the Court decided that it was

6 established. And the judge on this case -- not yourself, but Judge Ahmet

7 Tatarevic -- certified the death. Is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And then the second document -- if we can just put that up -- I

10 think is the birth certificate -- or a copy of the birth certificate of

11 the person who was declared dead.

12 MS. KORNER: And if it helps Mr. Ackerman, they were disclosed to

13 the Defence on the 18th of May of last year.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Korner, may I ask you to explain to the

15 Court what are you seeking to prove with document 9.6 and 9.7.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we're showing part of the evidence which

17 we say goes to genocide is the large number of people who were killed

18 during the course of these events. That's why we're leading the

19 exhumation evidence and the declarations of death. We've alleged

20 thousands of people were killed.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So this is part of the evidence.

22 MS. KORNER: Yes, it is.

23 Yes, thank you.

24 Your Honour, could, I think, both documents be made the same

25 exhibit, just to keep them together, which will be 779 -- perhaps 779.1

Page 5499

1 can be the -- the birth certificate, because it's 9.6; and 779.2 -- 779.2,

2 rather, will be the ruling.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I think we have -- yes, exactly. The

4 extract from the law on administrative procedure has not been given a

5 number.


7 JUDGE AGIUS: And 7 --

8 MS. KORNER: Yes, I'm sorry. Then P779 will be the law on

9 administrative procedure; 780.1 and .2, the documents just described.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me ask the witness a question with regard to

11 this particular procedure that he was describing or referring to earlier.

12 Do I understand you well, Judge, that this is a -- these are

13 proceedings before a special court, the nature of which is

14 non-contentious, a court of non-contentious jurisdiction, in other words.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a regular court, and the

16 procedure was regular. But the proceedings were called "out-of-court

17 proceedings" because we have a law on out-of-court proceedings in which --

18 according to which certain legal relations -- certain legal issues are

19 dealt with on the basis of that law.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the other question is: In these

21 proceedings, is the state -- the -- in particular, the registry office

22 where the office responsible for the archiving and registering of civil

23 acts -- is any -- is this office represented in the course of these

24 proceedings.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I haven't understood

Page 5500

1 your question very well.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I asked you whether it's a court of

3 non-contentious jurisdiction. A court of contentious jurisdiction is

4 when there are two opposing parties fighting a claim. And a court of

5 non-contentious jurisdiction is where there is only one party asking for a

6 remedy or for a measure from that particular court. Now, these, I

7 understand, are proceedings in which there's only one party. But what I

8 am asking you now is whether in these proceedings the interests of the

9 Registry of civil acts is represented. In other words, whether there is

10 anyone who was consulted or who has a say in the course of these

11 proceedings from the administration side.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you've understood that quite

13 correctly. These are legal proceedings which involves only one party. We

14 don't have two parties with opposing interests. The person submitting the

15 proposal must prove that it is of legal interest to establish certain

16 facts in the out-of-court proceedings. And in these proceedings, the

17 Court obtains certain evidence, such as this certificate here -- such as

18 this birth certificate. This certificate was taken from the Registry of

19 Births and relates to the person who is in question in the proceedings.

20 When the Court takes a decision, it sends this decision to the office in

21 order for it to be implemented. It take it to the registry office so that

22 the date of death can be listed in the registry office and that person can

23 be declared dead.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But in the course of the proceedings, that

25 registry office, does it have a say in the proceedings? Is there a

Page 5501

1 measure of control reserved for the administration during the

2 proceedings. In other words -- or is it just the judge hearing the

3 evidence brought forward by the party filing the application and that's

4 it, with -- without any possibility of control from the office which

5 ultimately is responsible for the archiving of these civil acts?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The registry office doesn't have the

7 right to participate in the proceedings, but the Court does cooperate with

8 the registry office. If the registry office has something it wants to

9 object to or if it doesn't agree with some of the personal details of the

10 missing person, in such cases the registry office can officially request

11 that the Court make corrections, that the Court correct certain

12 information. But the registry office doesn't have the right to make

13 amendments of any kind in the Court's decision.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And my last question to you is: Once an application

15 is filed for a certificate of death to be issued by the Court, is the

16 application itself given publicity? In other words, is -- does it become

17 something that the general public can be made aware of?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's enough.

20 Ms. Korner, you may proceed.

21 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


24 Q. [Microphone not activated] Okay. Those documents can be taken

25 off, please?

Page 5502

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone.

3 MS. KORNER: Oh. If those documents can be taken away.

4 Q. Before I move on, there's one set of documents that I want to ask

5 you about that you found. You told us a long time ago that when you were

6 arrested in Sanski Most on the 25th of May, one of the people who was --

7 who was involved in your arrest was a man named Dane Kajtez.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I want you to look, please, at a set of documents.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, they were disclosure 4.197 in that

11 small bundle. The Defence they were disclosed to on the 10th of November

12 of the year 2000. But I'll have them put it up on the ELMO in case people

13 don't have them here with them. And I'd like to take these documents in

14 order but produce them as one exhibit, which I'll do at the end. There

15 are --

16 Could the first one be handed, please, a report of the lower court

17 investigating judge Sanski Most. And if the witness could get the B/C/S

18 version.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, the documents that I have -- I have one

20 document which is, I suppose, what you are referring to now.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And it is 4.197.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: With the other number 01106755.

25 MS. KORNER: That's it.

Page 5503

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And then however I have another document with the

2 same number, 4.197.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: With 01103365.

5 MS. KORNER: That's right.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do they form the same document.

7 MS. KORNER: No. They're separate documents but they relate to

8 the same issue that I'm about to deal with.


10 MS. KORNER: And that Your Honour will hear about.

11 Your Honours, can I just check that Your Honours then also have a

12 document headed "41 --" sorry, "4914."


14 MS. KORNER: And then "182."


16 MS. KORNER: All of those relate to exactly the same incident.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Incident.

18 MS. KORNER: But we now have up the report.

19 Q. This -- although it's headed "The lower court investigating judge

20 Sanski Most," I think was dealt with at a time -- we can see November

21 1992. If you turn the report over, to the other side of it - yes - 9th of

22 November, 1992. Do you know who Dr. Ljiljana Prosic was -- is?

23 A. Yes, I do. She is a doctor. At the time she was employed in a

24 healthcare institution in Sanski Most. That was the Sanski Most

25 healthcare centre.

Page 5504

1 Q. And this report by her in November of 1992 deals with the killing

2 of nine people from the village of Skrgevita is that correct?

3 A. Kruhare.

4 Q. Right. But the killing was in Kruhare. But did the persons

5 come from the other village named?

6 A. Skrgevita.

7 Q. Is this document and the next documents we're going to look at

8 documents that you recovered?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. KORNER: And Your Honours, I can say this relates to a

11 particular killing on the indictment.



14 Q. Now, it describes the people who were killed and the injuries to

15 them. These people who were killed, do you know what ethnicity they

16 were?

17 A. The nine persons, the nine unfortunate persons listed here were of

18 Croatian ethnicity. They were from the village of Skrljevita.

19 Q. Okay. Can we, then, move, please, to the next document that's

20 also got the disclosure number 4197. The number at the top is 01103365.

21 Now, if we look at the B/C/S version, it appears -- it's a

22 handwritten document. And it's signed, if we look at the end -- could you

23 tell us what the signature says.

24 A. This is the signature of Kajtez Dane, Danilusko. That's his

25 letter to -- the letter he wrote in the Banja Luka prison to Vlado Vrkes.

Page 5505

1 Q. Okay. Now, can we take, first of all, that in stages. Who found

2 that letter and where was it found?

3 A. I found this letter.

4 Q. And where was it found?

5 A. I found it in the premises of the SDS, of their municipal board,

6 in Sanski Most.

7 Q. And just remind us again. Who was Vlado Vrkes?

8 A. Vlado Vrkes was together with Rasula, the president of the SDS.

9 He was the vice-president or the vice chairman of the Crisis Staff. And

10 for a time he was the chairman of the executive board of the Serbian

11 municipality of Sanski Most.

12 Q. Okay. Can we just look briefly at the contents of this letter.

13 He had been arrested apparently and explained about his wife coming

14 there. And then in the third part, the third paragraph, he says: "I

15 can't take this endless and painful investigation any longer. You are all

16 supposedly working on my behalf, but in fact, nothing is happening and you

17 don't give a damn, you just care for yourselves."

18 Next paragraph: "Why didn't you go to see Maric, the Court

19 President, he could have sorted all this out and set us free, but you say,

20 "let Dane serve his sentence for a while, it's good for him."

21 Do you know who Maric was, who's described as the court

22 President?

23 A. I don't know if Maric was the President of the court, but I do

24 know other persons who are mentioned here in this letter.

25 Q. Yes. We're going to come to the others.

Page 5506

1 All right. Then it goes on: "Vlado, you know as well as the rest

2 of you, what and how much I have done for that damned Sanski Most. There

3 is no need to waste words on it, but it's worth mentioning. What I'm

4 about to say to you ... is a very serious matter ... don't take this as

5 a threat or blackmail, because that is not my intention. My intention is

6 to get out of here as I deserve or for someone to join me behind bars.

7 You know that at Manjaca, I and a few others liquidated 12 people on two

8 occasions, which was ordered and witnessed by inspector Vujanic, Mico

9 Krunic, who was the warden of the Betonirka prison at the time, Mile and

10 other inspectors. The chief at that time was Vrucinic." I'm just going

11 to read the next paragraph and then I'm going to ask you about this. "I'm

12 going to file charges against myself in court because I was only a Serbian

13 soldier and executioner who liquidated people on orders issued by the

14 people named there and by you too, Vlado."

15 All right. Now, he talks about liquidating 12 people at Manjaca.

16 Do you know to what incident he refers there?

17 A. I do. Two groups of six persons each were liquidated. I assumed

18 that they were liquidated because they were singled out from the transport

19 at Manjaca and returned. The first group consisting of six persons was

20 returned on the 6th of June. The second group was returned on the 12th of

21 June. And it's a total of 12 persons. Those people were never found

22 again. They were Bosniak Muslims from Sanski Most. So they were in the

23 transport. They were being transferred from Betonirka and from Hasan

24 Kikic school, the gym there.

25 Q. Okay. Now, he refers to an inspector Vujanic. Do you know who he

Page 5507

1 was?

2 A. I do. That's Drago Vujanic. He is a lawyer. He went to school

3 with me, and we also studied together. He worked in the Serbian police.

4 He was the chief of the service in the public security station in Sanski

5 Most. He led the groups to Manjaca, and he brought the list. He was the

6 one who took me away. Right now he is in Banja Luka, and he holds an

7 important job in Banja Luka. He is still in the police.

8 Q. What about the next man, Mico Krunic?

9 A. I know Mico Krunic very well. He was a retired police officer, a

10 Serb. He was a very active member of the SDS as a retired police

11 officer. In April he was mobilised again, and he joined the police.

12 Q. I don't -- I'm sorry to interrupt. I don't need too much details

13 about him. But was he at the time, as this letter suggests, in charge of

14 Betonirka prison?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. Okay. Do you know who he's referring to by the nickname Mile --

17 or the name Mile?

18 A. I do know that person. That's Mile Dobrijevic nicknamed Mima. He

19 was a crime investigations inspector in the public security station in

20 Sanski Most. When the war stopped and after the Dayton Peace Agreement

21 was signed, he has been the chief of the public security station in Ostra

22 Luka, which is called the Serbian Sanski Most. On several occasions, he

23 led groups to Manjaca. I saw him. He interrogated me at Manjaca. He

24 took part in the beating -- the beatings of people.

25 Q. And finally, Vrucinic. Was he the chief of police at Sanski Most?

Page 5508

1 A. Yes. He was the chief of the public security station in Sanski

2 Most. Tomo Delic is also mentioned here. You left that name out.

3 Q. No. I haven't got to the next paragraph. I'm going to read the

4 next paragraph.

5 The next paragraph says: "As for this charge against me, the gist

6 of my defence will be that we went hunting and were attacked. If I get a

7 harsh sentence, in other words, if you fail to get me out of here, I will

8 say that I killed on orders issued by Tomo Delic and Vlado Vrkes, with the

9 intention of resettling the village of Skrgevita as soon as possible.

10 All of which could be -- I'm sorry. All of which could easily be proven

11 in court."

12 Tomo Delic is the man that you told us about at some length, I

13 think, earlier on in your evidence; is that right? A member of the Crisis

14 Staff and the SOS.

15 A. That's right. And he was in the command of the 4th Battalion of

16 the 6th Krajina Brigade. And together with Nedeljko Anicic, he was the

17 chief coordinator and the strategist of the planning for the military

18 formations and for the taking of the territory in the Sanski Most

19 municipality -- I mean, in military terms.

20 Q. Yes. Okay. Then if we just go on -- I think I can summarise most

21 of the rest of it. He's -- he then goes on to say: "If I have to be held

22 responsible and serve my sentence, I don't have to be the only one from

23 Sana to do so when there are so many people and great Serbs around. Why

24 would I have to bear the entire burden myself, why would I have to be the

25 guinea pig? So, I am going to defend myself by any means and implicate

Page 5509

1 you in this, so that you can serve your time as well, because I was not

2 the one who started this war, I didn't issue the orders or hold any

3 function."

4 And finally, he ends up by saying: "As soon as I give this

5 statement in my defence, the investigation will have to be reopened and

6 you won't be able to remain at large."

7 And then in the P.S.: "Go to Talic, Mladic, Karadzic, to whoever

8 you can think of, but get me out of here. Don't just say that if the

9 sentence turns out to be harsh, we'll get it reduced -- we'll get it

10 reduced it -- I think translation has gone wrong somewhere -- or I'll be

11 granted an amnesty because I don't believe that, nor do I have any more

12 faith, nerves or patience. My fellow prisoners here, from various towns,

13 who also killed the balija and the Ustasha, are being acquitted and helped

14 by their municipalities. Only Dane is being put into deep shit by his own

15 side. So be it, Serb gentlemen."

16 Now, can we look at the final documents on this particular

17 incident. Could we look, please, at 49 -- 4.914, which is a report by

18 someone called Predrag Lazic.

19 MS. KORNER: And if that could go up on the ELMO.

20 Q. That, I think, dated the 7th of December, 1992, Command of the 6th

21 Krajina Brigade of the military police Sanski Most. It says there was

22 this murder and alleges four people were responsible, including Mr.

23 Kajtez. There was an investigation, and weapons were seized. And the

24 Banja Luka CSB confirmed by phone there's an entry cartridge matching the

25 light machine-gun taken from Dane Kajtez being found at the site of the

Page 5510

1 murder. The aforementioned persons have been apprehended and processed,

2 and will be taken to the Banja Luka military remand prison. Does the name

3 Predrag Lazic mean anything to you?

4 A. Predrag Lazic was a member of the military state security

5 service -- Serbian state security service or the national military state

6 security, as they called it.

7 Q. And then the final document -- really it's a bit repetitive. But

8 it's the list of criminal reports. Could that -- 4.182.

9 That's a list of the criminal reports from December the 5th 1992

10 until February of 1993. And the second refers to the same incident and

11 lists the people again. And I don't think we need -- and it says that

12 all -- at the back of that page, "All the said criminal reports were

13 submitted to the office of the public prosecutor."

14 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Then, Your Honour, may those documents

15 become P781.1 through to .4 in the order that I've produced

16 them,.1,.2,.3,.4.

17 Q. Finally this, Judge: Do you know what happened to Kajtez? If you

18 don't know, say so straight away.

19 A. According to or what I have been able to see from the documents, I

20 have been able to establish that Dane Kajtez had been released from prison

21 and that he had returned to Sanski Most and that he had been given a

22 Bosniak cafe in Sanski Most in the very centre of the town. I know that

23 he changed his name by applying to the police authorities in Sanski Most

24 as early as in 1993. I saw the decision on the change of name. It was

25 issued by the public security station in Sanski Most, the Serbian public

Page 5511

1 security station. And it was also entered in the registry office in

2 Sanski Most, in the relevant registries. I think that this Tribunal also

3 has this decision -- a copy of this decision. I learnt that Dane Kajtez

4 had killed more than a hundred people.

5 Q. And where is he now? Do you know? I mean, is he alive, as far as

6 you're aware?

7 A. Yes, he is alive. He is somewhere in Serbia. I can't tell you

8 the exact location.

9 Q. And from your --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes. I'm going to finish this all. I've just got

12 two more questions, Your Honour.

13 Q. From your investigations, was he ever prosecuted, brought to trial

14 or serve any sentence? I'll rephrase that, because that's three questions

15 rolled into one. First of all, we see that a prosecution was launched in

16 respect of these murders. Do you know whether or not a trial ever took

17 place?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. And you say he was released and by 1993 he was applying for a

20 change of name.

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in fact, there will be other evidence

24 from the military court records that we've obtained.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. We'll break for another 30

Page 5512

1 minutes, please. Thank you.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I recognise Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'd like about five or seven or eight

6 minutes at the end just to discuss a couple of matters --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: -- That are responding to your request, in fact.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Responding?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Responding to a request made by you last week. I

11 just have some answers for you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.

13 Yes, Ms. Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, there's one matter I need to raise

15 as well. But that will take all of 30 seconds.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So you moderate --

17 MS. KORNER: Half past 1.00, would Your Honours think?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so. I think that should be enough.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what I would do is I think I'll deal

20 with other documents that he's covered and then go on with the exhumations

21 tomorrow morning, because that, I think, is a --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Korner.


24 Q. Judge, I want to come to another similar document relating to an

25 investigation that you recovered. It's the document with the disclosure

Page 5513

1 number 4.184. Again, it was in that small little extra bundle.

2 MS. KORNER: And I wonder if the judge could be given -- and we'll

3 put up the English on the ELMO.

4 Now, if we could put the English up on the ELMO.

5 Q. This was an investigation apparently carried out by the security

6 service centre in Banja Luka -- or rather, by Sanski Most into the murder

7 in the village of Hrustovo -- Hrustovo -- I've always had some difficulty

8 with this one -- and some photographs that were taken. And photograph

9 1 --

10 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid that if Your Honour looks at -- that is

11 really all the copies were photocopies and the originals are not much

12 better -- the original photocopies.

13 Q. Photo 1, house owned by Husko Merdanovic in the village of

14 Hrustovo, in the garage of which a charred corps was found. And then the

15 garage, a broader view, and the state of the charred corpse.

16 If we go over to the next document, please, the lower court of

17 Sanski Most, 23rd of April, 1993.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes. Can we just -- sorry. Yes. The document --

19 could you pull the document -- you've got the bottom half of the document

20 on. I want the top half first. Thanks.

21 Q. "Police station Sanski Most. Enclosed with these documents, we

22 are sending you an investigation report written on the 10th of April, 1993

23 following the discovery of a charred body in the village of Hrustovo."

24 And that's signed, investigating judge, Milena Zoric. Did you know her?

25 A. Yes, I did. Milena Zoric was a judge of the municipal court in

Page 5514

1 Sanski Most while I was still the president of the court. She remained

2 there as a judge after I had left while Serbian authorities were present

3 in Sanski Most.

4 Q. And we see that the report of the pathologist and the

5 investigating judge after the discovery of the corpse and then the

6 description of the -- what was found. And at the --

7 MS. KORNER: If we go to the next page, please, usher, on the


9 Q. We can see after the investigation -- yes, that paragraph at the

10 bottom. If you'll just pull that up slightly. Thanks.

11 And according to the knowledge of those present, the house is most

12 probably the property of Huska Merdanovic of Hrustovo. And after

13 completing the investigation, the investigating judge told the workers to

14 bury the said corpse, and so on and so forth.

15 And then, as I say, we can see the unfortunately completely

16 unidentified photographs.

17 Now, again, Judge, was this a document that you found in the court

18 files at Sanski Most?

19 A. Yes, this is a document I found in the court files in Sanski

20 Most.

21 If I may, I would just mention something briefly. Merdanovic

22 Husko, his fact is -- his name is in fact Husein from Hrustovo. He was

23 killed on the 31st of May, 1992. In that same garage, 29 people were

24 killed, 29 Bosniaks: Nine children, women too, and Huska was among them

25 in that very same garage.

Page 5515

1 Q. Yes. Thank you, Judge.

2 MS. KORNER: Can I just mention, Your Honour -- this results --

3 Your Honour will recall that I told Your Honour about difficulty with

4 witnesses coming. May I say that those difficulties have been resolved.

5 The witnesses will be coming.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Both of them?

7 MS. KORNER: Both -- not not the one that Madam Fauveau didn't

8 require.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Relating to one of

10 them --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Relating to one of them, there is our decision 92 --

13 MS. KORNER: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: 92 bis.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Which was made conditional on the --

17 MS. KORNER: Exactly. When I say --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: On the other witness being here to give evidence.

19 MS. KORNER: Exactly. The other witness is now coming, and

20 there's a second witness related to that who wasn't the problem -- or was

21 also actually a problem but who deals with the discovery of the bodies.

22 So -- but I thought I'd mention that now.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's important, Ms. Korner. Thank you.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you. If that could be made Exhibit 782,

25 please.

Page 5516

1 Q. Can I now look at some other documents that you recovered,

2 please. Could you be handed the document marked 41012. That's a

3 document --

4 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. I think the 782 has been used.

5 MS. KORNER: What was 782 then according to your records?

6 THE REGISTRAR: In the transcript, page 71, line 12. 785? P785.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No. According to -- according to the sequence that

8 I have --

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. No. According to the sequence that I have, the

11 documents 4.197 -- and there were two documents with that number, the

12 first one with disclosure number 01103365 and 01106755, together with

13 documents 4.914 and 4.182 have together become Exhibit P781.1 to.4.

14 MS. KORNER: Exactly. So I don't have a 782 anywhere.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And that was the last exhibit that was tendered.

16 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So this new one, 4.184 with the photos that no one

18 can make heads or tails of would in fact be 782. Definitely.

19 MS. KORNER: Exactly. Thank you very much, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: There is, Ms. Korner, while we are discussing this,

21 I still have from this bundle a lone document which is a certificate of --

22 or decision certifying the death of certain --

23 MS. KORNER: Begic.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mesud Begic, a decision given by the witness.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes.

Page 5517

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And this has not been used as of yet, has it.

2 MS. KORNER: No, it hasn't. I mean, I looked at it on the break,

3 and it doesn't seem to me that other than he had signed it, as opposed to

4 another judge, that it didn't add anything.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But I just wanted to know whether it's going

6 to be tendered as an exhibit or not.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour. At the moment, I don't think so. I'll

8 recheck that for tomorrow morning. But I don't think we need that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

11 Q. But I'd like -- you've now got, have you, 4.1012. That's a

12 document dated the 27th of October from the security centre Banja Luka,

13 addressed to the Sanski Most public security station, the SJB. And we can

14 summarise it. It's an order to subordinate -- well, perhaps we should

15 just read the first part. "Pursuant to a request from the first -- from

16 the command of the 1st Krajina Corps of the army of Republika Srpska to

17 engage 158 members of the police from Banja Luka CSB region, who will be

18 resubordinated to the 1st KK command, to execute designated tasks in

19 Jajce." And it shows that there are to be 34 policemen and one senior

20 employee from Sanski Most. And if we look at the next page -- it's your

21 page, the same page but for yours it's the next page -- it's signed by

22 Stojan Zupljanin, the centre chief.

23 Do you know where that came from? I'm sorry. Did you find that

24 yourself, I should ask.

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 5518

1 Q. And from where did you -- where did you find that?

2 A. The public security station in Sanski Most.

3 Q. Now, the next --

4 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Your Honour, could that be made

5 Exhibit 783.

6 Your Honour, I'm just checking to make sure I know which one ...

7 [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry, Your Honours.

8 [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, I think I'll come back

9 because --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MS. KORNER: I'm not entirely sure that they put this on the list,

12 so I may have to come back to that tomorrow. So I'll move directly to the

13 exhumation evidence. Oh actually, there's one more thing that I can do.

14 Q. The -- I want you to look, please, at a set of transcripts which

15 were attached to the statement of October 2000. And they're right at the

16 back of the big bundle. They've got "7.77" on them. And the translation

17 numbers begin 019007754.

18 Now, I think you told us when you were last testifying, Judge,

19 that there were various broadcasts that you heard on Serb radio. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. In which there was propaganda broadcast and also demands for the

23 surrender of weapons.

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Now, did you provide to the Office of the Prosecutor in October of

Page 5519

1 2000 when you were seen by investigator Kellie Ward two audiotapes

2 containing broadcasts from Sanski Most radio?

3 A. Yes, that's right. I gave those two audiotapes to the Office of

4 the Prosecutor. That's a direct record of the Serbian radio which was

5 made when Sanski Most was attacked -- on the day when Sanski Most was

6 attacked. Obviously the propaganda which was being carried out was

7 terrible.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say that at a later stage we're

9 going to have a witness present who was actually on these recordings.

10 So it will just take up time to listen to it.

11 Q. Can we just look, for example, at an example of -- these were

12 transcribed. If you take -- you've got the B/C/S version -- the one that

13 begins with the page number 01104873 in the B/C/S, and in the translation

14 01907754.

15 And do we see there an announcer stating that there's a meeting at

16 the Tomina school and that persons from Kamicak, Kljevci, and Sanica to

17 come to a meeting there, to bring lists of the former Muslim units, lists

18 of arms in the villages legal and illegal, lists of arms and military

19 equipment, the full names of leaders and their extremist groups and their

20 locations. "We repeat that your villages are surrounded and that you

21 wouldn't have a chance in an open armed conflict. That is why we warn you

22 to come to the meeting without fail, because by doing that you will

23 prevent the destruction of property and people for which you will held --

24 you will be held responsible before the people. Your failure to come to

25 the arranged meeting will be understood as acceptance of armed conflict

Page 5520

1 which is what you will get. The Command of the Serbian Armed Forces.

2 Since the representatives of the above-listed villages have failed to come

3 -- have failed to come to the arranged meeting, meaning they have

4 accepted war ...."

5 And then there's a female announcer: "Muslim and Croatian

6 ethnicity of Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, Capalj, Kamicak, Donja Sanica, Biljani,

7 Priesijek, and Budimlje.

8 As well as all of the hamlets around these villages which have not

9 handed over their weapons, to hand them over to the nearest military unit

10 straight away. Any resistance and opening of fire on the members of the

11 Army of the vernz Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina will provoke an armed

12 attack on that village, resulting in great material damage and human

13 casualties for you. You do not have a chance in armed combat, so keep a

14 cool head. Collect the arms and take them to the nearest military

15 unit ...."

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm just seeing if there's any others

17 that I want to go through. I think not.

18 Q. Just before we make these an exhibit, Judge, can you tell us, who

19 recorded -- how did you collect these audiotapes? Who recorded the

20 material?

21 A. First of all, I would like to say something briefly. While I was

22 in prison --

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, can I just object to him always

24 wanting to answer something that's not asked him and --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But let's hear what he has to say first.

Page 5521

1 Maybe it's relevant, Mr. Ackerman. If it's not, I will stop him.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: He wants to say when I was in prison. He was asked

3 who recorded the tapes, and he wants to tell you a story about when he was

4 in prison.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But he may be revealing some information that

6 might be relevant. I don't know a priori.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: It's difficult to tell who's the prosecutor.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. You are right. The witness tends to go at

9 a tangent sometimes. But in the meantime, I still have to wait and see

10 what he has to say first.

11 MS. KORNER: Actually, Your Honour, I have to say it's normally

12 relevant.

13 Q. Is this relating to these broadcasts, Judge?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Perhaps you can tell us what you'd like to say about when you were

16 in prison.

17 A. I heard of the Serbian radio of Sanski Most -- I heard this being

18 broadcast throughout the day on the 27th of May. Do you understand? This

19 is what I want to say. In prison we listened to Sanski Most radio,

20 because it comes from the command, which is in the building of the

21 prison. These words could be heard. That's just what I wanted to say.

22 And this is exactly what we could hear.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And the question was: Who recorded these

24 transmissions?


Page 5522

1 Q. Where did you get the tapes from?

2 A. I got these tapes while I was in Germany. I got them from a

3 gentleman who had been given these tapes. He gave them to me. I could

4 provide you with his name, but -- I don't know. His name is not

5 important. What is important is the person who recorded it. I know that

6 Mr. Husto Jakupovic recorded this. Unfortunately he has died. He was a

7 Bosniak who was involved in education and he was at home in Sanski Most at

8 the time. He is the person who recorded this tape, and this is something

9 that he confirmed.

10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, may that, then, be made

11 Prosecutor's Exhibit 784 --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the transcripts

14 of a tape that has not had any kind of a reasonable foundation laid for

15 it. As far as we know, this tape was created by actors in Germany. I

16 mean, there's no evidence that this was actually a broadcast of the radio

17 that was recorded other than just the purest and most unidentified form of

18 hearsay. I think that requires some more authentication that what we've

19 heard so far.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge -- Judge, have you listened to these tapes?

21 Have they been played back to you?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Several times.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And are you in a position to confirm here on oath or

24 with your solemn declaration that this is a faithful recording of what you

25 heard or what you said you heard while you were in prison.

Page 5523

1 THE WITNESS: I am ready to take an oath and to swear that this is

2 what I heard and that this is the original text of the broadcasts made

3 over the Serbian radio at the time when Sanski Most was attacked.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So do you still maintain your objection,

5 Mr. Ackerman, at this point?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour he heard it -- I understood that

7 he had heard the Sanski Most radio but not that he was saying that he

8 heard these particular --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: No. No. This is why I asked him. I mean ...

10 So let's leave it at that. And I think, Ms. Korner, unless you

11 have any further questions on this particular --

12 MS. KORNER: There's a second set of transcripts and tapes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you want to continue now? Because we had

14 agreed to stop at half past, so that you can bring up --

15 MS. KORNER: Pick up tomorrow morning.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. Thank you.

17 So I think the witness can be escorted.

18 Judge, you know -- you are aware that you have to come again

19 tomorrow and the subsequent two days at least.

20 You will tender this as an exhibit tomorrow morning, Ms. Korner?

21 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour. I've asked if I can tender it as

22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 784.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Now I have lost the page.

24 Okay. Thank you.

25 Thank you, Judge. You may withdraw, and we will meet again

Page 5524

1 tomorrow morning at 9.00.

2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, while Your Honours -- if Your

5 Honours have still got it there, just to show that this is clearly

6 authentic. If Your Honour looks at page 5 of the translation.


8 MS. KORNER: You see a name at the bottom.


10 MS. KORNER: He's being called as a witness to talk about this.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. Page 6 -- page 5, yes.

12 MS. KORNER: Page 5 at the bottom.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay.

14 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, you had asked us to report to you on

16 two matters. I think you asked on Friday.


18 MR. ACKERMAN: The first of those was the status of the defendant

19 Brdjanin exhibits. We have worked on those. We're in contact with

20 Ms. Chuqing Chen regarding those. I think we have almost got the problem

21 solved.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: There will be a point where I might want to

24 formally offer some that haven't --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That will not be a problem, Mr. Ackerman.

Page 5525

1 MR. ACKERMAN: You also asked about the Banja Luka 92 bis

2 situation.


4 MR. ACKERMAN: I reviewed what was available to me in that regard

5 that I could find. There are three outstanding Banja Luka 92 bis matters

6 that I am aware of: 7.118, [Realtime transcript read in error "7.168"]

7 7.167, and I think it's 2.4, the deceased witness. On January 17, 1992 I

8 filed an objection as to 7.118 and 7.160 and indicated I had no objection

9 regarding the deceased witness. I requested that 7.118 and 7.167 be made

10 available for cross-examination. The Prosecution responded to that

11 objection the next day. On 30 January, the Chamber issued its decision

12 not to admit 7.167 and to admit 7.118 after certain redactions from it had

13 been made by the Prosecution. So as I understand at this point we are

14 waiting for the Prosecution to make the redactions ordered on 30 January

15 2002 by the Chamber and that the matter regarding the deceased witness,

16 2.4, was deferred until a later time at the request of, I think, both the

17 Prosecutor and Madam Fauveau.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I recall there was an agreement to that

19 effect.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, while the transcript reflects that I

21 said 7.168 at the beginning, and what I really said was 7.167. The

22 outstanding matters are 7.118, 7.167, and the deceased witness, 7.167

23 having already been ruled by this Court not to be admitted.

24 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid, Your Honour, that I -- I know that Your

25 Honour raised it on Friday, and I intended to have a look at it, and Your

Page 5526

1 Honours' legal officer raised it this morning, but I think I'll have to

2 go back and have a look. I can't remember who all these witnesses are

3 now, except for the one who's dead.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please do, Ms. Korner, for a very simple

5 reason that I tried to explain to you --

6 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour did. Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Before without saying too much, the legal officer --

8 my legal officer who's working on Banja Luka will soon be

9 leaving the team.

10 MS. KORNER: Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And she is anxious, and so am I, to have all the

12 documents -- first make sure that they have been given an exhibit number,

13 which is not the case for some of the 92 bis statements.

14 MS. KORNER: Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And secondly, there is still this -- these two

16 outstanding matters that Mr. Ackerman has referred to following our

17 decision of -- I don't recall the date -- but our decision on 92 bis that

18 need -- need to be attended to.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, I'm -- I've been told - and I

20 thought that was right - that when Your Honour made a ruling, that we'd

21 have to call 7.167. I think we informed the Chamber -- I can't

22 remember -- or shortly afterwards we weren't going to bother. I recall

23 that we were made -- made redactions. So I don't think there is anything

24 outstanding other than to make the redactions requested and to give them

25 exhibit numbers.

Page 5527

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I think the -- the transcript did not get the

3 numbers correctly.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It won't be the first time and it won't be the last

5 time, I can assure you.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I just want to make sure.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.118 -- now I've lost it.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: 7.118 is the one that's awaiting --


10 MR. ACKERMAN: -- redaction by the Prosecution.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: The Chamber ruled 7.167 not be admitted.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, correct. And the Prosecution, in any case --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: And 2.4 is outstanding. That's the deceased

15 witness.


17 MR. ACKERMAN: There was a 7.160 I believe --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That was included in our decision.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. And I believe that that witness may have been

20 called already.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes. We called -- that's right.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. So that witness has actually been here and

23 testified.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think it's, in fact, Your Honour -- I think

25 the easiest thing is to go back to Your Honours' decision and to do a

Page 5528

1 double-check.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please, Ms. Korner.

3 MS. KORNER: And I will definitely inform Your Honours tomorrow

4 morning what the situation is.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. I thank you.

6 So tomorrow morning we will continue with Witness 7.77.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, there's one matter I need to raise

8 that's quite short.


10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour will recall that Mr. Dzonlic, the

11 lawyer --


13 MS. KORNER: -- provided copies of the letters which were relating

14 to the termination of employment as a result of ARK Crisis Staff

15 decision. They were handed over to Mr. Ackerman I believe a couple of

16 weeks or so ago now. I'm only concerned with this: I don't -- I'm not

17 going to produce them myself - because the witness gave oral testimony to

18 that effect - unless it's still challenged, in which case I need to

19 produce the letters as exhibits. I'm just not anxious to add to the

20 exhibits in this list. So I wonder if I just could be told whether

21 there's now any challenge to that part of the evidence.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, very frankly, Your Honour, I haven't had a

24 chance to have them translated into English so that I can understand what

25 they say, either orally or in writing. It's just one of those things

Page 5529

1 that I kind of put aside and didn't get to yet, but I will get to it.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. And then we will decide.

3 There are various options, actually, depending on what the outcome will

4 be.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes. I mean, Your Honour, the simplest thing would

6 be to produce them. But I mean, which is adding exhibits unnecessarily.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right. And then if they all say the

8 same thing in particular, I mean, we only need one or two.

9 MS. KORNER: That's right.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I understood from what you told us when you reported

11 again on the matter that there was a variation on the same thing; in other

12 words, that there were some which said one thing one way and others which

13 said the same thing in another way.

14 MS. KORNER: No. There are -- as I recall the instructions I've

15 been given, there are two sets, as it were. There's one that says

16 "pursuant to --" I say one. There are about seven that say "pursuant to

17 a decision of the ARK Crisis Staff dated," and then others which say

18 "because you haven't reported for work for five days or whatever, you're

19 dismissed."

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So please, Mr. Ackerman, do give this your

21 early attention.

22 I think with that we can adjourn. Tomorrow morning at 9.00.

23 Thank you.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

25 at 1.39 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

Page 5530

1 the 14th day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.