Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5785

1 Tuesday, 21 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning. Can you hear me in a

9 language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

11 Yes, I can hear you in a language that I understand.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And General Talic, good morning to you. Can you

13 hear me in a language that you can understand.

14 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I

15 can hear you in a language that I do understand.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Appearances for the Prosecution.

17 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, assisted by Susan Grogan, case

18 manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

20 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours, I'm John Ackerman. I'm

22 here with Tanja Radosavljevic, and I'd like to introduce to Your Honours

23 Milan Trbojevic, who's in the process of becoming new co-counsel for Mr.

24 Brdjanin.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Good morning to you.

Page 5786

1 Appearance for General Talic.

2 MR. PITRON: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President and Your

3 Honours. I'm Michel Pitron representing General Talic, assisted by

4 Natasha Fauveau -- with Natasha Fauveau.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good morning to you.

6 Any preliminaries before we bring the witness in.

7 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it's a question of timetabling

8 really that I want to raise. I notice that at the moment we're not

9 supposed to be sitting again this Friday.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's not our fault.

11 MS. KORNER: Oh, I know that, yes.

12 Your Honour, I was wondering -- I don't know whether it is court

13 maintenance or not.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, it is in fact.

15 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I was wondering whether there was

16 the slightest remotest possibility that that could be put off until the

17 next time because we were unable to stop the next witness coming when we

18 tried -- when it was realised that cross-examination was going to take

19 longer than was anticipated. So he's here. If we're only going to sit

20 three days this week, I gather from what -- I've spoken to Defence

21 counsel, it may well be that Judge Draganovic is going to take the rest --

22 until Thursday.

23 Now, it is very expensive to fly these witnesses here and to keep

24 them. And if there was the remotest possibility that we could at least

25 start him.

Page 5787

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, that obviously, Ms. Korner -- I mean --

2 MS. KORNER: You know, I'm raising it so that --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It depends very little on us, because it's not my

4 style or the wish of my colleagues to interfere much in either the

5 examination-in-chief or the cross-examination, provided relevant questions

6 are being asked. Therefore, it's not our intention to cut short --

7 MS. KORNER: No. I --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's number one.

9 And secondly, court maintenance is, I think, something that is

10 organisational that we cannot touch. Like, we couldn't touch last

11 Friday.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I understand that. There was something

13 different. But it seems to me that court maintenance, A, doesn't take

14 very long, as far as I'm aware. And to shut down a whole session for that

15 does seem to me, given the competing interests, one of which is the

16 expense, that perhaps an exception could be made.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. We will check.

18 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: In the break. But I'm not exactly that hopeful.

20 MS. KORNER: No. Well, I'm not either. But if you don't try, you

21 won't succeed.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: In any case, perhaps it might be worth thinking

23 about sending this witness back, because it's -- and bringing him back

24 again towards the end of the week. A briefing would have taken place in

25 any case, so he would only need to be here the day before starting

Page 5788

1 evidence. That would save you having to keep him here between now and,

2 say, Saturday. You know, I mean -- I don't know.

3 MS. KORNER: They -- as I understand it, people who come from

4 Bosnia have to be flown here on Friday. They can't be flown here on the

5 weekend. And he came in on Friday. Don't ask me why, Your Honour. But

6 as far as I understand the VWS -- I think it's maybe the cost of staffing,

7 keeping them working over the weekend. So that would mean that if he goes

8 back, say, tomorrow, he'd have to come back again on Friday.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But that would save you -- I don't know

10 whether it's worth its while.

11 MS. KORNER: I don't know either, Your Honour. All I'm saying

12 is -- and I appreciate Your Honours have limited control over things like

13 court maintenance -- is that it does seem to me that if the -- it can be

14 arranged, then it would cost less in terms of --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I will check and I will try.

16 In the meantime perhaps one of my staff -- Inneke, please, you

17 could start checking on it and by the time we have the break, maybe we'll

18 have an idea of where we are, because I don't even know exactly who to

19 approach on such a matter.

20 MS. KORNER: Well, thank you, Your Honour. I'm just raising it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

22 Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think the obvious proper choice

24 based upon my conversations with Ms. Fauveau this morning and my own

25 preparation over the last several days is to send this witness home.

Page 5789

1 There's -- I don't think there's any chance we're going to reach him this

2 week. We could have an hour maybe on Thursday if we're lucky. And it's

3 hardly worth keeping him here a week to do that.

4 The other thing -- one makes plans based upon what understand the

5 schedule of our sittings to be. And last minute changes cause chaos. So

6 I'm not very enthusiastic about Ms. Korner's suggestion that we work out a

7 way to sit on Friday? Because it would cause me to have to change some

8 things that I had planned, and I'd just as soon not do that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So Mr. Draganovic -- or Judge Draganovic.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Judge.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. While things are being set

13 up, could I just ask that if reference is going to be made to things said

14 on previous days the transcript reference could be given, the page

15 number. I'd be very grateful. It's helpful if one can see the context.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

17 Good morning, Judge.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's proceed with the solemn declaration that

20 you are familiar with, please. Thank you. Go ahead.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

Page 5790

1 Please, Madam Fauveau.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic: [Continued]

4 Q. [Interpretation] At the end of the hearing of the 16th of May, we

5 were speaking about the debris left over from a bomb that you found at the

6 site of the crime. And on the 24th of April -- and it's page 4888 of the

7 French transcript. You said that in almost all cases these bombs came

8 from the JNA arsenals.

9 On the 16th of May -- it's page 68 of the LiveNote -- you said

10 that some of this debris was of military origin. Among the debris that

11 you found, was there any debris that was not of military origin?

12 A. I'd like to say that I didn't mention all the cases of explosions,

13 although that -- although in most cases I went to carry out on-site

14 investigations as an investigative judge. I said that these were bombs of

15 military origin from the JNA arsenal, and I stand by this claim now.

16 If you want to know how I determined this, I'll tell you. But if

17 not, I won't say anything. But I can claim this because I wasn't the only

18 person to carry out this on-site investigation. A police team accompanied

19 me. It was a criminalistics team. They were people who knew about these

20 explosives. And on the basis of what -- what was determined, I came to

21 these conclusions. These were criminal inspectors of Serbian

22 nationality.

23 Q. On the 24th of April -- it's page 4888 -- you said that this

24 debris came from a factory of military materiel which is located in

25 Bugojno; is that correct?

Page 5791

1 A. There were various types of explosive devices. I said that there

2 were hand grenades too. They were called Kasikara. General Talic

3 understands this term very well. These bombs were produced in the

4 military factory in Bugojno before the war.

5 Q. Do you agree that this factory that produced military material was

6 like all the other factories at the time, a socially owned factory?

7 A. They were military factories which produced these special-purpose products

8 and they were state-owned. I know that no one

9 else was able to obtain explosive devices other than the JNA or that is to

10 say, the army and the police. I don't know how the police managed to do

11 this. I think that it was in a position to do this. It was carried out

12 in accordance with the laws that were in force at the time.

13 Q. Do you agree that this factory also provided weapons to the

14 Territorial Defence?

15 A. The Territorial Defence, I assume it had its own weapons. But

16 this was all under the control of the JNA.

17 Q. Would you agree that the weapons from these -- from this factory

18 could be in the army and the police and in the Territorial Defence?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. On the 24th of April, on the hearing on that date -- and we're

21 still referring to page 4888 -- you said that there were no prosecutions

22 against the perpetrators of these explosions. Is this correct?

23 A. I said that. So after the on-site investigations, the public

24 security station had the task -- or the police had the task of finding out

25 who the perpetrators were, as far as I can remember -- not a single case

Page 5792

1 was detected at that time. So that means right up to the time of my

2 arrest.

3 Q. Have you spoken to the prosecutor about these explosions?

4 A. After each case of that kind, I and the prosecutor would usually

5 go to carry out the on-site investigation together. Or in any event, we

6 would speak about the case, and I would not only speak to the prosecutor

7 about it but also to the chief of the public security station and the

8 chief of the criminal -- the crime department. On several occasions,

9 Majkic Dragan, who was the chief of the police of the public security

10 station, I spoke to him and complained about this to him and also to the

11 chief of the crime department. And this was something I also did at

12 meetings in the municipality, which were attended by the person who was

13 then the president of the municipality, Nedeljko Rasula. I pointed out

14 that this was a problem, and I requested that more active means be

15 undertaken to discover the perpetrators of these excesses. I also pointed

16 out that -- I also expressed my opinion that this was not a problem, that

17 it wasn't a problem to discover who the perpetrators were, because this

18 was taking place very often. In April and in May there were explosions

19 which occurred almost every evening. And this was -- this would take

20 place in Bosniak flats, cars, et cetera. There was one excess, one

21 incident, two shells were fired at a mosque in Donji Komengrad. This

22 caused problems and fear among the local population. One shell hit a

23 well, and I think it damaged it. I don't know what the caliber of these

24 shells was. The second shell did not explode. But we found it in a

25 nearby field. It was planted in the ground. And that also came from the

Page 5793

1 JNA arsenal. And we know where these shells were fired from. They were

2 fired from a position -- well in a village above --

3 Q. Sir, my question was quite simple. I simply asked you whether you

4 had spoken to the prosecutor about these explosions.

5 A. I've answered that question.

6 Q. Could you tell me who was the Prosecutor in Sanski Most at the

7 time?

8 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

9 A. I --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the problem, Ms. Korner?

11 MS. KORNER: I don't think that's the question that's been

12 translated to the witness. I think the question was what the name --

13 MR. PITRON: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. Mrs. Faveau asked

14 what the name of the prosecutor was and the translation was not correct.

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's the advantage of not having --

17 MS. KORNER: I was listening to the question. But Your Honour, if

18 we're not -- I think it is important to remind the interpreters that we

19 had this problem before when Madam Fauveau checked the transcript.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Would it be much asking you, Madam Fauveau, if

21 it's not of an inconvenience to you -- I know that you understand the

22 witness's language. If you could perhaps put on the earphones as well so

23 that -- I don't know. I mean, if it's an inconvenience, don't do it. But

24 perhaps you will be the one in the best position to know if your -- the

25 interpretation is the correct one or not.

Page 5794

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But that means that I

2 would be listening to another language from the one that I am speaking. I

3 can't do that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, actually, I'm not concentrating on your

5 French. I'm concentrating on the English translation, that interpretation

6 they I get. So I wouldn't know if there is --

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm doing this deliberately because I

8 don't want there to be a repetition of what happened last time.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In fact I appreciate that very much,

10 Ms. Korner. Thanks.

11 So the question was not as was translated in English at the time.

12 But it seems that Madam Fauveau would like to know who the prosecutor was,

13 his name, in other words, in Sanski Most.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The prosecutor's name was

15 Mr. Slobodan Milasinovic. And his assistant was Enver Ceric, his deputy.

16 Milasinovic was of Serbian nationality, and Enver Ceric, who was

17 unfortunately killed, was a Bosniak. And I was very much in contact with

18 them, every day, and we would speak about these things.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Did the prosecutor make a request for the investigations to be

21 completed? And I'm talking about investigative proceedings.

22 A. If you think that this request was put to the Court, no. It was

23 not. But I assume that he did ask the police in writing to work on

24 discovering the perpetrators of such actions. As I've already said, this

25 was a period -- this was actually the period between April and May. It's

Page 5795

1 a very brief period. So I don't think there were any court

2 investigations. Actually, I seem to be remembering right now. At that

3 time Mr. Milasinovic term of office was expiring or had just expired. So

4 that was a problem too.

5 Q. Yes, but about an incident in Milin Birt, in which a young Muslim

6 was seriously wounded?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Were you at the site when this incident occurred?

9 A. I was not on the site when the incident occurred. However, I did

10 carry out the subsequent on-site investigation. That is to say, when I

11 was informed about the incident, in the morning hours of the following

12 day, that is. I carried out the on-site investigation, and I was in this

13 unit. I talked to the officers of that unit and to the soldiers who were

14 there at that particular point. These were members of the 6th Krajina

15 Brigade [As interpreted]. I can't remember now. It was a battalion,

16 actually. But I have it written down, so probably.

17 Q. Who informed you about the fact that this incident took place?

18 A. It's hard for me to remember now who informed me, but I imagined

19 that it was the duty service of the public security station that informed

20 me. That is what they do by way of procedure after such incidents. So I

21 assume that they informed me that this incident had occurred.

22 Q. When you went to the headquarters of the command of this brigade,

23 in what capacity did you go there?

24 A. I appear there as the judge on duty, as the investigative judge,

25 who came out to carry out the on-site investigation, according to the Law

Page 5796

1 on Criminal Procedure, that is.

2 Q. Was an investigation opened?

3 A. As far as I can remember, no official investigation was opened

4 then, until I was arrested, that is. Now, whether the military

5 prosecutor's office started any kind of investigation, that I don't know.

6 But these were military persons, so they were under the jurisdiction of

7 the military prosecutor's office.

8 Q. At the hearing of the 24th of April, you said -- and I'm quoting

9 you. It's page 88 -- "I am asking not only for investigations to be

10 initiated but also for there to be prosecutions." Do you remember

11 this?

12 A. Yes, I do remember that. I insisted upon that because I really

13 saw for myself on the actual scene that these soldiers who were at the

14 point had committed a crime. That is to say that a citizen who is from

15 there, his house is nearby, and he stopped, and he had to show his ID.

16 And when he already started driving towards his house -- this was after he

17 was checked -- he was shot at, fired at, his vehicle was, from the back,

18 to put it that way. And then it was uncertain as to whether he would be

19 alive or not. He was in a very serious situation. He was hit in the

20 spine, and the vehicle was bullet riddled because it had been shot at from

21 an automatic weapon. I had called for an investigation and for

22 proceedings to be initiated. That's why I went to the command of that

23 unit and that's why I talked to the officers and that's why I insisted

24 that proceedings be initiated against these soldiers. Now, whether such

25 proceedings were indeed instituted, that is something I really do not

Page 5797

1 know. However, there is one thing I do know: This man is alive until the

2 present day. He is seriously disabled. He lives in Sanski Most, and he

3 comes to the courthouse and to the police station until the present day

4 and he seeks criminal proceedings to be instituted. His last name is hue

5 Huzeirovic. I can't remember his first name now. He lives at Milin Birt,

6 which is to say about 50 metres away from the checkpoint. The house is on

7 the left-hand side, if you are looking in the direction of Prijedor. He

8 can even testify to that.

9 Q. Sir, under which rule of the proceedings of the criminal court can

10 a judge order that there be -- that proceedings be initiated?

11 A. Please. I am a professional judge, but I am here as a witness.

12 It is not necessary for me to answer that question, because you are a

13 lawyer, you are aware of that.

14 Q. Is it true that in April 1992 the Law on Criminal Procedure of

15 Yugoslavia, was still in force?

16 A. Yes. Yes, it was still in force. I think there had been some

17 amendments to it, but yes, it was still in force.

18 Q. Isn't it true that in accordance with this code a judge can't ask

19 for investigations or proceedings to be instituted? This is a matter for

20 the competence of the prosecutor.

21 A. I had made proposals to that effect, for proceedings to be

22 initiated. It's not that I did it in writing. I did this orally. I had

23 suggested that.

24 Q. Requesting such proceedings, hadn't you abandoned your neutrality

25 as a judge and exceeded your competence?

Page 5798

1 A. You are really putting a funny question to me. I do not wish to

2 answer such a question.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, I think without letting this become a

4 storm in a teacup, may I suggest to you to proceed to another question.

5 Judge, please may I -- may I remind you that here in this Tribunal

6 I am the one who decides. And if I will ask you to answer a question,

7 whether you like it or not you will need -- you will be required to answer

8 it. And please avoid going into a direct confrontation with the witness,

9 who's got every right -- with counsel, who's got every right to

10 cross-examine you and put all those questions that are allowed by this

11 Trial Chamber. Thank you.

12 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. On the 24th of April, you spoke about a meeting which took place

15 at the police station in Sanski Most on the 17th of April, 1992. Did you

16 attend that meeting?

17 A. I did not attend that meeting.

18 Q. During that same hearing -- it's page 4925 -- you said -- you

19 quoted what Rasula had said at this meeting. How did you know what Rasula

20 had said if you didn't attend the meeting?

21 A. I found out from people out there, policemen, policemen who were

22 sent out that day, and I found out about that on that very same day.

23 Q. The following day after this meeting you went to the building of

24 the municipality where Croatian and Muslim policemen had taken shelter.

25 Why did you go there?

Page 5799

1 A. I went there to seek information, to see what had happened,

2 because I was still working as a judge, as the president of the court, and

3 I wanted to get information about that situation.

4 Q. How did you know that Croatian and Muslim policemen were there?

5 A. It wasn't hard to find out, you see. Everything that happened was

6 heard about and seen immediately, because the courthouse is in the

7 immediate vicinity of the police station, or rather, the public security

8 station and of the municipality building. As a matter of fact, I think I

9 had been informed by telephone about what happened at the public security

10 station. I can't remember now though who informed me about that. But

11 during the course of that day, or rather, that afternoon, I knew that

12 people -- that the policemen who were thrown out of the police station,

13 the public security station, went to the municipality building, to the

14 municipal assembly building, rather. Before that, there was a meeting,

15 but I did not attend it.

16 Q. How did you enter the building of the municipality?

17 A. It was easy for me to enter. It was easy. I came from home that

18 morning in my own car, and I parked in front of the building, in front of

19 the municipal assembly building, and I entered the building.

20 Q. The Muslim and Croat police who were in the municipality building,

21 were they armed?

22 A. As far as I can remember, yes. I think so, yes. At the entrance

23 by the door in the hallway I did see these policemen. They were probably

24 guarding the entrance to the building. I think they were armed.

25 Q. You also spoke about a meeting that took place on the 20th of

Page 5800

1 April, 1992. It was a meeting at which General Talic was present. Did

2 you personally attend that meeting?

3 A. I personally did not attend that meeting.

4 Q. At the hearing on the 15th of May -- it's page 25 of the

5 LiveNote -- you said that this visit by General Talic had not seriously

6 affected the situation in Sanski Most. Do you remember saying that?

7 A. I remember saying that. That was my observation, and I think

8 that's the way it was.

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor show

10 the witness his written statement.

11 MS. KORNER: Which one? All of them?

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, preferably. But at

13 the moment, I need the statement from October 1992.

14 Q. Could you have a --

15 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry. I handed to

16 him I think the one wrong. I gave him the October 2000. It's October

17 1999 you want, is it? It says "1992" on the translation.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's October 1999. [Microphone not activated]

19 That's what I heard as well.

20 MS. KORNER: Okay. If we could have it back, then. It's easier

21 if we find it for the witness than the usher.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Could you have a look at page 10 of the statement.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] You mean in Serbo-Croat.

25 No?

Page 5801

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 10 in the -- in

2 both the English and the Serbo-Croat version.

3 Q. In the middle of the page, there's a paragraph which starts with

4 the words "this meeting had no results." If you have a look -- if you go

5 on, you said: [In English] "It was only held to calm down the situation."

6 Have you found this?

7 A. I have. The meeting did not yield any results. The meeting was

8 held only to calm down the situation. Yes. Yes, that's quite clear. You

9 can talk in Bosnian too. I can understand you.

10 Q. [Interpretation] So you wanted to say that the meeting had been

11 convened in order to calm the situation but that it didn't succeed in

12 doing this; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's right. Actually, I'll explain this in a single

14 sentence if you want me to. The objective was to have the army, the 6th

15 Krajina Brigade withdraw from town, from the streets, and for it to be

16 disarmed simply. That was the objective of the meeting. However,

17 what happened? Nothing. Actually what happened happened. They occupied

18 the entire town, every street, every crossroads, every neighbourhood. As

19 for their weapons arsenal, they moved them into the hills above town from

20 where they were shelling. That's what I meant when I gave this statement.

21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

22 the witness P616.

23 Q. Is this a report from the command of the 6th Corps of the 20th of

24 April, 1992?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, the one I have as Exhibit P616 says

Page 5802

1 5th, not 6th. I don't know what you said, because again, I'm not

2 following the French.

3 MR. PITRON: [Interpretation] Ms. Fauveau did mention the 5th

4 Corps, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, that would go as 5th and not

6 6th.

7 Yes, please go ahead.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Is this a report from the 5th Corps of the 20th of April, 1992?

10 A. Well, the way it's put here, this is a regular combat report of

11 the command of the 5th Corps of the JNA. And at that time its commander

12 was General Talic.

13 Q. Could you have a look -- in Serbo-Croat it's page 1, and in the

14 English version it's page 2 -- could you have a look at paragraph 2. It

15 says: [In English] "A team from Corps Commander -- has assessed the

16 situation in the Prijedor region, focussing on Sanski Most and measures

17 are being taken to improve the situation."

18 [Interpretation] Have you found this passage? It's at the bottom

19 of the first page in the Serbo-Croat version.

20 A. Yes, I've found it.

21 Q. At the hearing on the 15th of May -- it's page 13 of the LiveNote,

22 you said that you weren't aware of the presence of a team from the corps

23 command at Sanski Most. Do you remember saying this?

24 A. I'm sorry. I didn't quite understand what you were saying. Could

25 you please repeat it once again.

Page 5803

1 Q. On the 15th of May, you said that you weren't aware of the

2 presence of a team from the corps command at Sanski Most. Do you remember

3 saying this?

4 A. Well, now I can't remember whether that's the way I had put it.

5 But the 5th Corps -- the 5th Corps, I know that that was the Banja Luka

6 Corps of the JNA. Later on it grew into the 1st Corps of the Serb army.

7 But whether there were some people from the command in Banja Luka, that I

8 don't know. I know for sure though that the representatives -- or rather,

9 the high officers, like the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade, the

10 commander of the staff, they fell under that particular corps. And now

11 how the reporting went, that I really don't know.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Madam Fauveau, please.

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. But you knew that General Talic on the 20th of April -- you knew

15 that he was in Sanski Most on that date.

16 A. Yes, I heard about that, found out about that, knew that.

17 Q. So General Talic was the commander of the 5th Corps.

18 A. Yes. I knew that too.

19 Q. So you knew that there was someone from the command of the 5th

20 Corps in Sanski Most on the 20th of April.

21 A. Well, Commander Talic was there, and it was -- was he a major?

22 Major Zeljaja from Prijedor. And there was another one, another officer,

23 another officer or two. I don't know. And Commander Basara was there,

24 the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade. That is as far as the military

25 structures are concerned of that corps, that is. Because they are all

Page 5804

1 linked up. They were all linked up within the 5th Corps, the Prijedor

2 Brigade and the Sanska Brigade, and these people were there then. I know

3 they were there. I heard about that. I was informed about that. I mean,

4 I could have been present at the meeting too, but I did not wish to be

5 present.

6 Q. You said that later you found the diary that belonged to Rasula.

7 Could you tell us where you found this diary.

8 A. Yes, I found it. I found the diary, whichever word you want to

9 use for it -- Nedeljko Rasula's diary, the then-president of the

10 municipality of Sanski Most and the president of the Crisis Staff or

11 rather the War Staff of the Serb municipality of Sanski Most. I found it

12 in the neighbourhood of Caplje. Do you want me to tell you the exact

13 location more precise than that?

14 Q. No. Thank you.

15 When did you find this diary?

16 A. That diary -- well, I found it during those days. I came to

17 Sanski Most in 1995, and I can't tell you the exact day, but I think --

18 was it the beginning of November or the end of October? I can't remember

19 the exact day. But it was round there. End of October, beginning of

20 November 1995.

21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

22 the witness document P759.

23 Q. Is that Rasula's diary? Have you found Rasula's diary?

24 A. Yes, this is Rasula's diary.

25 Q. How do you know that this is Rasula's diary?

Page 5805

1 A. Well, I knew Nedeljko Rasula very well. I knew his handwriting.

2 I knew where his house was in Caplje. And that's precisely where I found

3 it. And also, by the contents of the diary, it was easy for me to

4 establish that it was Rasula's diary. There are many entries in the diary

5 that corroborate that. As for his handwriting, I am very familiar with

6 it, since he was a teacher. And I know that he was a rare person among

7 the Serbs in Sanski Most who used the Cyrillic alphabet when he wrote.

8 And he had very nice handwriting. So it was very simple for me to

9 establish that.

10 Q. Before you found this diary, was someone able to add a few words

11 or a few sentences to this diary which belonged to Rasula, someone other

12 than Rasula obviously.

13 A. I don't think so. Because everything I saw written in there was

14 written in his handwriting and according to a certain chronology, except

15 that at the very end there are a few pages that were torn out. Now, when

16 they were torn out, that I don't know.

17 Q. Could you find the note which refers to the meeting of the 20th of

18 April, 1992. Before analysing this note, could you confirm that this

19 diary was written in the Cyrillic script.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. A minute ago you said that Rasula always wrote in the Cyrillic

22 script; is that correct?

23 A. As far as I can remember, he wrote in the Cyrillic script most of

24 the time. I do not remember him having written in the Latin script, and I

25 had known him for a number of years.

Page 5806

1 Q. Could you have a look at the note which refers to the meeting of

2 the 20th of April and which concerns the activities of the JNA. And the

3 words that General Talic allegedly said, "don't ask anyone to come to your

4 help, otherwise you will see that Kupres, Bosanski Brod, and Vukovar."

5 It's at the bottom of the page, of the page which has the date the 5th of

6 November printed in the Serbo-Croat version. Have you found this passage?

7 A. I have found what it says here, "the JNA will guarantee peace and

8 security to the citizens." That's what General Talic said. That is on

9 this page number 5, dated the 5th of November.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

11 A. The 5th of November.

12 Q. And at the hearing on the 24th of April, 2002, page 4944, you read

13 that General Talic allegedly said what is said in the diary, "Don't call

14 anyone to your help. Otherwise you will see that Kupres, Bosanski Brod,

15 and Vukovar." Do you still stand by this statement?

16 A. Unfortunately I can't read now what I said. I can't read the

17 transcript. But it says here everything that General Talic -- is written

18 here. And he can confirm that or he can deny that. This is Rasula's

19 notes. These are the notes that Rasula took. And I abide by what I

20 said.

21 Q. If you have a look at this -- very well -- at this passage, this

22 paragraph. In the middle of what's written in Cyrillic script, there are

23 three words -- at least three words which have been written in the Latin

24 script. "Otherwise" -- the word for that is "inace" in Serbo-Croat. And

25 "you will," which in Serbo-Croat is "vic ete", those are two words, and

Page 5807

1 there is perhaps a third word which I can't read. Is that correct?

2 A. I can see what you've just been saying to me --

3 Q. Is it written in the Latin script?

4 A. The word "inace," "otherwise," is written in the Latin script.

5 And also down here where it says "vic ete," "you shall."

6 Q. Could you explain to us why Rasula, who almost always wrote in the

7 Cyrillic script and whose entire diary was written in the Cyrillic script,

8 could you explain to us why he wrote these three words in the Latin

9 script?

10 A. I cannot explain that.

11 Q. Would you allow for the possibility that someone other than Rasula

12 added these words?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. I'm going to move on to another subject. At the hearing of the

15 24th of April, 2002, you spoke about isolated snipers -- individual

16 snipers. And you said they were people from the 6th Brigade. It's on

17 page 4939. Did you see these snipers?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, did you say 6th Brigade or 5th

19 Brigade?


21 JUDGE AGIUS: 6th. Okay. Thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: It's the 6th Krajina Brigade, Your Honour, and the

23 5th Corps.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was watching, and I also knew that

25 at the Hotel Sanus, in the rooms there, there were snipers. They were

Page 5808

1 dressed as soldiers. All the windows were open for the most part across

2 the terraces. So they were there for a longer period of time. In front

3 of the Hotel Sanus or in front of the municipality building, there was --

4 there was a barricade-type thing, so access was not allowed to the hotel

5 or to the municipality building. And there was a military guard. Should

6 I put it that way? Or rather, soldiers who were there by that barricade.

7 Also, the sniper nest could be seen on the building itself by the post

8 office. That's where the members of the SOS were, up on the building that

9 is next to the post office building. That is both an apartment building

10 and a business building. So they were up on the roof. And sandbags could

11 be seen around, so this place where the sniper nest was, was protected

12 that way.

13 And some people who lived in that building, Bosniaks, informed me

14 about that, that I should be careful when I walk across the square in that

15 area. They also told me the name of the person who was most often at the

16 sniper nest, the person from the SOS. So I knew that for sure, and I saw

17 it too. From the hotel, the snipers controlled the bridge and the centre

18 of town across the bridge on the left bank. That's where a doctor was

19 killed. That's where a doctor was killed, a Bosniak, Mehmed Alagic, on

20 the 27th of May, 1992.

21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did you know the identity of the snipers who belonged to the 6th

23 Brigade?

24 A. I didn't.

25 Q. On the 24th of April -- it's page 4980 -- you spoke about the

Page 5809

1 weapons of the Territorial Defence and you said that they had been taken

2 in a violent manner and that that took place from 1991. When you say "in

3 a violent manner," did you mean that members of the Territorial Defence

4 had opposed this action?

5 A. That's not what I meant. Nobody opposed that action.

6 Q. Would you agree that when these arms were taken, this was in fact

7 legal action, since you yourself said that a law in the federal assembly

8 had been voted to this effect?

9 A. The Federal Assembly of Yugoslavia, as far as I can remember,

10 adopted a law according to a shorter procedure -- rather, the law on armed

11 forces was amended. I can't even remember now any more. But this law

12 subordinated the Territorial Defence to the JNA. After that, what

13 happened happened. That is to say, that they took all the weapons of the

14 Territorial Defence. I already said this last time. Trucks came,

15 military trucks of the JNA. I saw these trucks. There were five or six

16 trucks -- I don't know -- at least. All of them military vehicles, the

17 same. The street was blocked. While they were loading the weapons and

18 the equipment on that day. I saw them from the courthouse as they were

19 leaving, this column of vehicles. What I learned, heard, felt was that

20 these weapons were handed over to the 6th Krajina Brigade -- or rather,

21 this is how the Serb people were armed in the area of the municipality of

22 Sanski Most, because first the weapons ended up in Lusci Palanka. This is

23 the information that I could get at that time.

24 Q. Could you say when this action took place?

25 A. I can't remember exactly. I can't remember the exact date, or

Page 5810

1 rather, the time. I think it could have been perhaps even in 1992, but I

2 don't know when.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

4 the witness document P19.

5 Q. Could you read the first paragraph. Sir, it's the very first

6 paragraph.

7 A. Well, let me have a look at the document itself. Please allow me

8 to do that.

9 This document is not signed and it has no seal on the last page,

10 number 11.

11 Q. Thank you. In socialist Yugoslavia, up until 1992 did you see

12 many official documents without a signature and without a -- and without a

13 stamp?

14 A. In socialist Yugoslavia, I think that documents for the most part

15 had a signature and a stamp, as far as I can remember.

16 Q. Nevertheless I would like to ask you to read the first paragraph

17 of this document.

18 A. "On the basis of the order of the head --" I think it says of the

19 Main Staff -- "OS SFRY strictly confidential. 19-1. Dated the 14th of

20 May, 1990, carried out in the territory of the Socialist Federal Republic

21 of Yugoslavia. Action of taking over and securing weapons and munition of

22 entities ONO and DSZ, that is total national defence and social self

23 protection in the facilities of the Yugoslav People's Army." I've read

24 it.

25 Q. Does this document refer to the action of taking arms from the

Page 5811

1 Territorial Defence, the weapons which were taken by the JNA?

2 A. I said what happened in Sanski Most, that the JNA took the weapons

3 and the equipment of the Territorial Defence of Sanski Most. I think that

4 that was sometime round the beginning of 1992, if I'm not mistaken. And

5 what it says here, I don't know anything about this.

6 Q. But this document is from the 13th of September, 1990; is that

7 correct?

8 A. This is not a document because it says "Commander -- Lieutenant

9 Colonel General Milos Bajcetic," some general from Belgrade. But there is

10 no signature, no stamp. For me this is not a document. I don't know

11 anything about this document.

12 Q. Let's say that this document has the date the 13th of September,

13 1990.

14 A. Yes, that's what it says.

15 Q. And according to this document -- if we have a look at paragraph

16 2, the weapons of the Territorial Defence in the Banja Luka region were

17 allegedly taken on the 13th of June, 1990 and in a period before this

18 date; is that correct?

19 A. I don't know how the JNA took over documents from the TO from a

20 legal point of view, but I am talking about the actual state of affairs,

21 what happened in fact, what I saw with my very own eyes and what I know.

22 And now whether those weapons and equipment were kept in Sanski Most as a

23 JNA arsenal, that I don't know. But I did know that this was for the

24 Territorial Defence.

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, would it be

Page 5812

1 convenient to make a break now?


3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, if Madam Fauveau is leaving that

4 document and the suggestion is meant to be that the document shows that TO

5 weapons were collected by order of the Bosnian government in September

6 1990, then I would invite her to deal with the witness with the fourth

7 paragraph in translation on page 1, because I think the way it's been left

8 could create a misleading impression.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, you will take that up after the

10 break, or if you prefer to take it up now, perhaps you could do it now.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll have a look at that in

12 a minute, if -- immediately if Ms. Korner could tell me where this

13 paragraph is in the English version.

14 MS. KORNER: The first page of the translation which starts: "The

15 action applied to the armaments and ammunition of the Territorial Defence

16 and to other actors only if so desired and explicitly requested."

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But the order is from

18 1990 and belongs to the Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina.

20 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, the only point I'm making is if

21 it's to be left that way with a suggestion that all arms collected were in

22 1990 and --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the point has been made. The witness has

24 already answered the question, saying that the only thing that he can

25 testify to is what actually he said given a particular point in time, and

Page 5813

1 I think you have made a point by pointing to paragraph 4 and I think we

2 could leave it a that. And there's no need -- I see no further need for

3 any further question, because it's not going to change the situation in

4 any case. I mean, the witness has already stated that he can only testify

5 as to what happened in 1992 and not --

6 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, all I'm concerned about is because

7 of the number of documents in this case, that if it's to be left and

8 potentially it's misleading -- it can just get lost. That's why I'm

9 dealing with it stage.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. No. I'm thankful for having brought it up,

11 because it's obviously important but once it's been brought up, I don't

12 see any reason for any further questions.

13 So we'll break now for half an hour, resuming at just before

14 11.00, please. Thank you.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. At the hearing of the 23rd of April, 2002 -- it's page 4873 -- you

20 mentioned a certain Nedeljko Anicic, and you said that this person was the

21 number one in the Main Staff of the 6th Brigade. Do you remember speaking

22 about this?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. And at the hearing of the 15th of May, you said that Colonel

25 Anicic led a military team. That is page 14 of the LiveNote of the 15th

Page 5814

1 of May. Could you explain to us what in your opinion is meant by a

2 military team.

3 A. That is certainly not the way I put it. It was no team. It was

4 an organisation, a military organisation. Nedeljko Anicic was commander

5 of the staff, I think, of the Territorial Defence -- of the Serb

6 Territorial Defence in Sanski Most. He was also on the Crisis Staff -- or

7 rather, the War Staff. He was a retired colonel or lieutenant colonel. I

8 can't remember. I think it was a colonel -- of the JNA. So in 1992 he

9 was there in the command -- in the defence command. In my opinion, in my

10 assessment, he was the man in charge. He was the military officer in

11 charge at the command of the Serb army in Sanski Most, of the Serb

12 defence, that is.

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

14 the witness document P638.

15 Q. If you have a look at the first page of this document, can you

16 confirm that this document has a stamp from -- a stamp of the Territorial

17 Defence?

18 A. That is a stamp of the staff of the Territorial Defence of Sanski

19 Most.

20 Q. And this document also bears the signature of Nedeljko Anicic.

21 And this is on the first page, again.

22 A. That's what it says here.

23 Q. Do you know whether the brigades of the Territorial Defence -- do

24 you know that they weren't under the command of the 1st Corps until July

25 1992?

Page 5815

1 A. Could you please put that question to me once again, precisely.

2 Q. Could you confirm that the document that you have in front of you

3 is a document from the Territorial Defence?

4 A. This is a document of the staff of the Serb Territorial Defence of

5 Sanski Most. Nedeljko Anicic was its commander.

6 Q. That's right. We agree.

7 Now my question is: Do you know that the Territorial Defence, the

8 Serbian Territorial Defence, was not under the command until July 1992 --

9 was not under the command of the 1st Corps until 1 July 1992?

10 A. I don't know about that. That's what you say.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

12 the witness document DT9.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: While that's being done, Ms. Korner and

14 Mr. Ackerman, Madam Fauveau -- because I forgot to tell you straight away

15 upon resuming the sitting -- there's no way we can make use of Friday in

16 this courtroom or any other courtroom, because that's the problem, because

17 it's the maintenance is done on a pretty, seems to me, regularised basis

18 and there won't be any other courtroom available to us, in any case.

19 Thanks.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I should note for the LiveNote that when

21 Madam Fauveau asked the question, she didn't just say July, she said the

22 1st of July. I thought she had but then I wasn't sure. And all it's come

23 out is until July 1992. It may not make a difference, but in fact she did

24 use the word "the 1st of July."

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that correct, Madam Fauveau? [Microphone not

Page 5816

1 activated] Does it make a difference to you?

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It was

3 the 1st of July.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] We can leave it at that,

5 because the witness --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau. We can leave it at that,

8 in any case, because the witness already answered -- told us -- telling us

9 that he did -- he's not in a position to answer that question. Thank

10 you. Please proceed with the next question.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The document that you have in front of you, it's an order from the

13 command of the 1st Krajina Corps; is that correct?

14 A. That's what it says here.

15 Q. If you have a look at paragraph 4. This paragraph refers to the

16 Light Brigade of Sanski Most, the Sanski Most Light Brigade; is that

17 correct?

18 A. In the context, Sanski Most is being mentioned, yes, that they're

19 subordinated to the command -- the tactical operative group of Prijedor of

20 the light Brigade of Bosanski Novi, Sanski Most, and Prijedor. I think

21 that this pertains to the 6th Krajina Brigade, but I'm not sure. I don't

22 know.

23 Q. And if you have a look at paragraph 7. It's the first paragraph

24 on page 2 of the Serbo-Croat and in the English version. It states that,

25 "The commands of these brigades have the obligation up until the 1st of

Page 5817

1 July 1992 to establish contact with the commands of the brigades which

2 are subordinated to them"; is that correct?

3 A. That's what it says here.

4 Q. Could you have a look at page 1 of this document. In the

5 Serbo-Croat version, it is handwritten, and you can see that this document

6 was distributed to the territorial -- to the regional Territorial Defence

7 of Banja Luka, to the 10th Infantry Brigade -- I'm sorry, to the 10th

8 Division of the infantry, to the 343rd Motorised Brigade, and to the 321st

9 Motorised Brigade; is that correct?

10 A. I don't know what this means, why this was added, this handwritten

11 bit. And I don't know what these designations mean.

12 Q. But you can see that the 6th Brigade isn't mentioned anywhere; is

13 that right?

14 A. The 6th Brigade is not mentioned, but under number 4 -- I don't

15 know. I said I didn't know, because Sanski Most is mentioned in the

16 context, in parentheses, the light brigade of Bosanski Novi, Sanski Most

17 and Prijedor. And in Sanski Most, there was only one brigade, the 6th

18 Light Brigade.

19 Q. But you do agree that the Territorial Defence had these units.

20 A. The Territorial Defence was organised -- the Serb Territorial

21 Defence was organised according to local areas. That is to say that it

22 had its command and it operated together with the 6th Krajina Brigade.

23 Q. Do you agree that the units of the Territorial Defence -- of the

24 Serbian Territorial Defence were separated from the 6th Brigade?

25 A. According to some military type of establishment, yes, possibly.

Page 5818

1 The Territorial Defence -- or rather, the staff of the Territorial Defence

2 had its units, and the 6th Krajina Brigade operated with its own

3 formation. However, when the aggression against Sanski Most took place,

4 there was a joint command according to battalions. That is to say that

5 there were these battalions -- as I said at the outset -- or rather, as I

6 learned, what I could have known, that is, at first there was one

7 particular type of establishment. And when it was over, when the entire

8 territory was taken over, then there was a different type of

9 establishment. At a point there were even 10 or 12 battalions, but all of

10 this was within the 6th Krajina Brigade. I'm not a military expert. I

11 repeat that once again. Perhaps somebody else could speak about that.

12 Q. Would you allow for the possibility that in May 1992 the

13 Territorial Defence was separate from the 6th Brigade? If you don't know,

14 you can simply say that you don't know.

15 A. They operated together; that is to say according to the same plan

16 and in a synchronised manner. The units of the 6th Krajina Brigade were

17 at certain localities, as were the Territorial Defence units. That is to

18 say that in the Territorial Defence there were people who were mobilised,

19 the Serbs of Sanski Most. Every particular settlement belonged to a

20 certain unit, a certain defence unit. So I allow for that possibility.

21 But they carried out their actions together and in a synchronised manner.

22 Q. But you'd also allow for the possibility that Nedeljko Anicic was

23 a commander of these Territorial Defence units.

24 A. Yes. I think I said that in my statement. He was commander of

25 the Territorial Defence staff. And the commander of the 6th Krajina

Page 5819

1 Brigade at that time was Colonel Branko Basara. I think that both of them

2 were later in the Crisis Staff, in the War Staff, as it was called.

3 Q. At the hearing of the 15th of May -- it's page 34 of the

4 LiveNote -- you said that the SOS forces were under the command of the 6th

5 Brigade. How did you know that the SOS forces were under the command of

6 the 6th Brigade?

7 A. In my statement, I said where the SOS unit was located. I also

8 said that there was an intervention platoon. I also said that from day

9 one they took part in the attack on Sanski Most in a synchronised manner,

10 together with the 6th Krajina Brigade. On the basis of what I know, if

11 you should put it that way, in Mahala, where my house is, the members of

12 the SOS took part in this and also the members of the army, the members of

13 the 6th Krajina Brigade. That's why I thought that they were a formation

14 which in a way was subordinated to the 6th Krajina Brigade, because in

15 some documents I also saw that Tomo Delic was, according to the

16 establishment pattern, appointed commander of the SOS. And on the other

17 hand, he was in the 4th Battalion of the 6th Krajina Brigade, in that

18 command, that is.

19 Q. I shall return to Delic Tomo a little later. Could you now have a

20 look at your statement.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one, Madam Fauveau?

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's the statement of the

23 3rd of July, 2000.

24 Q. On page 13, the paragraph that precedes the note -- [In English]

25 "14 April 2000." [Interpretation] You earlier stated that: [In English]

Page 5820

1 "I believe that the SOS was the intervention mechanism of the SDS and the

2 Crisis Staff."

3 [Interpretation] Could you say now whether in April and May 1992

4 the SOS forces were under the command of the SDS or were they under the

5 command of the army?

6 A. I think that they were under the command of the SDS and the Crisis

7 Staff, that is to say the Crisis Staff and the SDS.

8 Q. So you allow for the possibility that it wasn't under the command

9 of the army.

10 A. As for that period that you mentioned.

11 Q. A few minutes earlier you spoke about Tomo Delic, and you said

12 that he was the commander of the 4th Battalion of the 6th Brigade. Would

13 you agree that he was the commander of the 4th Battalion of a Territorial

14 Defence unit?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Fauveau. When he mentioned the

16 commander in relation to Tomo Delic, he said that he was appointed

17 commander of the SOS. But with regard to the battalion, he just said that

18 he was in the 4th Battalion of the 6th Krajina Brigade in that command.

19 That's the word he used. He didn't say that he was a commander of the 6th

20 Krajina -- of the 4th Battalion.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Was he -- I mean, let me put the question to you,

23 Judge. Was he the commander of the 4th Battalion of a Territorial Defence

24 unit? That was the question that Madam Fauveau put to you.

25 A. THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander of the 4th Battalion

Page 5821

1 was Ostoja Cukovic [phoen]; that is to say, a different person.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In fact, Mr. President, you

3 are quite right. What I wanted to know: Would you allow for the

4 possibility that this 4th Battalion in which Tomo Delic participated, was

5 it in fact a Territorial Defence unit, a Serbian Territorial Defence

6 unit?

7 A. The 4th Battalion was within the 6th Krajina Brigade.

8 Q. How do you know this?

9 A. I beg your pardon? I didn't hear your question in its entirety.

10 Q. How do you know that the 4th Battalion in which Tomo Delic was a

11 member was part of the 6th Brigade?

12 A. I know exactly where the command was located, or rather, the

13 forward command of that battalion. And I know -- all these people, they

14 are my neighbours from certain neighbourhoods on the other bank of the

15 Sana River, that is to say people who were members of the 4th Battalion.

16 I know that that battalion within the 6th Krajina Brigade went to theatres

17 of war in other areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I know -- I have friends

18 until the present day who were members of that battalion.

19 Q. When you say that they went to other fronts in Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina, which period are you referring to?

21 A. I'm referring to the period of 1992.

22 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that it was after the 1st of

23 July, 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you allow for the possibility that before the 1st of July,

Page 5822

1 1992 this battalion belonged to the Serbian Territorial Defence of Sanski

2 Most?

3 A. It is hard for me to answer this question because the military

4 organisation was undergoing changes. I really am not an expert, so I

5 cannot answer all your questions. As for the organisation of the 6th

6 Krajina Brigade and the Territorial Defence -- the Serb Territorial

7 Defence, because there were frequent changes in organisation and in

8 command.

9 Q. Sir, I understand your position very well. If you don't know the

10 answer, I'll be quite happy with you saying that you don't know about

11 this. I'll ask you the question once more, and if you don't know the

12 answer, please say so.

13 Would you allow for the possibility that before the 1st of July,

14 1992 the 4th Battalion belonged to the Serbian Territorial Defence?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Sanski Most.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it belonged to the 6th

17 Krajina Brigade.

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You think so, but you're not sure; is that correct?

20 A. I'm almost sure.

21 Q. At the hearing of the 24th of April -- it's page 4922 -- you

22 mention the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. Do you know

23 who the members of the regional Crisis Staff were?

24 A. I only heard about some people but not everybody. I know that

25 General Momir Talic was there.

Page 5823

1 Q. In 1992 did you know that General Talic was a member of the

2 regional Crisis Staff?

3 A. Now, did I know? I can't remember. But I assumed so. I know

4 some other members of the Crisis Staff. I knew that the most important

5 people in the region and according to the posts they held were on that

6 staff. I knew Mr. Stojan Zupljanin very well.

7 Q. Do you know when this Crisis Staff was established?

8 A. I can't remember. I don't know right now. It's hard to remember

9 all of that. I assumed that this was sometime in April. Was it April

10 1992? But these are just assumptions.

11 Q. Could you say how you knew who the members of the Crisis Staff

12 were?

13 A. I heard, for example, about Kupresanin, about Mr. Brdjanin,

14 General Talic. How I found out, I can't remember now. I probably had

15 information because I did my job until the very end. I didn't want to

16 leave my job, until this Crisis Staff did not, under quotation marks,

17 resolve this -- or rather, until they would dismiss me, because when

18 speaking to Mr Nedeljko Rasula, he mentioned the Crisis Staff from Banja

19 Luka, the Autonomous Region, because I had conversations with Rasula at

20 the critical time in April and May until I was thrown out of the court.

21 As a matter of fact, it is possible that as far back as then I saw

22 some documents, some information about actions taken by certain

23 authorities. Furthermore, there were press releases over TV, that is,

24 because I think that programmes were broadcast only from Banja Luka or

25 Belgrade. There were also some statements that were broadcast over the

Page 5824

1 radio. But indeed, this was ten years ago, and it's hard for me to be

2 very accurate on all of this.

3 Q. At the hearing of the 24th of April -- it's page 4916 -- you said

4 that two other Muslim judges who worked with you left the town in the

5 month of April 1992; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. After they had left, were there any other Muslim judges apart from

8 yourself in the court's building?

9 A. Not in the regular court but in the misdemeanours court. That's a

10 different authority altogether. Nedzad Muhic -- Mr. Nedzad Muhic was

11 there and nobody else. I beg your pardon. Azra Alajbegovic was

12 there, but she had also left before. That is to say, she escaped.

13 Q. You were forced to leave the court on the 15th of May. And when

14 this took place, was anyone else forced to leave the court at the same

15 time?

16 A. I have already said in my statement that I was forced to leave.

17 The president of the misdemeanour's court, Mr. Nedzad Muhic was forced

18 to leave, then the deputy municipal prosecutor, Mr. Enver Ceric; and the

19 registrar of my court, Agan Dzafic, he's a Bosniak too. On the same day

20 at the same meeting that they held -- they held this meeting -- and they

21 communicated this to us, that we were to leave the court premises straight

22 away and that these positions would be taken by ethnic Serbs. Stanic

23 Radovan became president of the municipal court. Andja Vujinic, she

24 became president of the municipal court for misdemeanours. As for Deputy

25 Prosecutor, Rajko Indjic was appointed. And Milenko Delic was appointed

Page 5825

1 prosecutor. That was on the 15th of May, 1992 at 9.00 a.m. until 10.00.

2 The building of the court was sealed off by the army and the police. They

3 were armed. They had automatic rifles. Vladko Vrkes came too. On behalf

4 of the Crisis Staff, he brought in an order, a decision, in writing and he

5 communicated it to us in courtroom number 8, on the ground floor. After

6 that, escorted by the army and the police,

7 I --

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

10 MS. KORNER: We've heard all this before.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, you're probably watching me as I am --

12 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It's --

14 Judge, I have to stop you. The question was a very simple one.

15 It said: "You were forced to leave the court on the 15th of May. And

16 when this took place, was anyone else forced to leave the court at the

17 same time?" The answer is yes or no. And if it's yes, you indicate the

18 names of others that were forced. But that's it. I mean, otherwise -- I

19 mean, you are the only witness that I did not address in a very simple

20 way. I have addressed all other witnesses at the beginning by telling

21 them please answer the question, the whole question, and nothing but the

22 question, because otherwise you will stay here for weeks and weeks and

23 weeks. We don't want the whole story. We just want you to answer the

24 questions that are put to you sometimes by the Prosecution; other times by

25 the Defence. But restrict yourself -- limit yourself to answering those

Page 5826

1 questions, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 I think that I've already answered that question.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you have, in fact. Yes.

5 Yes, Madam Fauveau, please.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. You also said at the hearing of the 24th of April that you had

8 been arrested by a military patrol which was in a yellow Mercedes; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where were you when you were arrested?

12 A. I was in a passenger vehicle, a white Golf with another friend,

13 an ethnic Serb.

14 Q. Could you have a look at your statement of the 20th of August,

15 2001. On page 2 of this statement, you said that: [In English] "I was

16 arrested on the 25th May 1992 at my house."

17 A. Yes, that's right. But not in the house. Near the house.

18 Q. [Interpretation] You identified the people who had arrested you as

19 members of the military police. If you return to your statement of

20 October 1999 -- I think it's the first statement. On page 11 of this

21 statement -- on page 11 of this statement, you identified the persons --

22 A. I'm sorry. Oh. This statement -- now I really don't know. Could

23 you please repeat this to me. Which statement is this?

24 Q. The statement of the 29th and the 30th of October, 1999. And it's

25 on page 11. You spoke about your arrest.

Page 5827

1 A. This is not the document. Please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the statement of the 29th and 30th of October

3 with translation number 00873132, Ms. Korner.

4 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Unfortunately I did not bother to bring the

6 Serbo-Croat versions with me today, so I can't help the witness much.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. On page 11 of this statement, you spoke about your arrest and you

9 identified the persons who had arrested you. You said they were Danilusko

10 Kajtez, Bato Vukic, Vlasto Vidovic, and Milorad Krunic. Do you stand by

11 your statement?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Do you agree that Milorad Krunic was a member of the civilian

14 police?

15 A. Milorad Krunic was retired. He was a retired policeman. At that

16 time he was appointed warden of the prison. I don't know which prison

17 though.

18 Q. But in any case, he was not a member of the military police. Do

19 you agree with that?

20 A. Possibly. Possibly he was not a member. But he knew me very

21 well.

22 Q. At the hearing of the 25th of April -- it's page 4972 -- you said

23 that you had been searched after you arrived at the police station in

24 Sanski Most.

25 A. Yes. That's right.

Page 5828

1 Q. Did you have to give the policeman the objects in your

2 possession?

3 A. I was frisked by a policeman. I gave him -- I think I gave him

4 all my things, my documents. I had my ID there. I had my driver's

5 licence. Also the licence of my vehicle. And I had my bank card and my

6 cheque-book. I gave him all of that.

7 Q. Were you able to keep some of the items that you had on you?

8 A. I only kept the key to my house. I kept it in my pocket. I had

9 some money too, a little bit of money, and I kept that, very little

10 money. I had very little money on me.

11 Q. And did the policeman know that you had this money?

12 A. It's possible he did know. Possibly he saw it. When I took

13 everything out, he saw it possibly, because he searched all my pockets.

14 But the money was taken away from me at Manjaca.

15 Q. Were you detained all the time from the time when you were

16 arrested up until the time when you departed for Manjaca? Were you

17 detained this entire time in the police station?

18 A. Yes. In prison.

19 Q. At the hearing of the 24th of April -- it's page 4979 -- you said

20 that during your detention in Sanski Most, you went to get some water. Do

21 you remember this?

22 A. I remember that.

23 Q. And you also said that a man had beaten you with a baseball bat;

24 is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5829

1 Q. Could you describe a baseball bat to us.

2 A. It was made of wood. It was short. A bit on the thick side.

3 About this long. I also think that it had a hole on the top and there was

4 something going through that hole. Now, was it a rope or was it a leather

5 string, I don't know. Something that you held in your hand.

6 Q. You said that the man who had beaten you was a member of the

7 army. Do you remember saying that?

8 A. I remember.

9 Q. And you also said that he had been involved in mopping up tasks in

10 Mahala; is that correct?

11 A. I think so. That's my assumption. Because while he was there --

12 while I was there, he was taking water, was threatening me, and he said it

13 himself. I cannot remember all his words with great precision. He

14 assaulted me then. Something else. As a matter of fact, I think that on

15 that day, right after that, when I was already taken into the cell,

16 somebody - either him or somebody else - threw something at the cell

17 window, which had metal all around it. And he said that he was throwing a

18 grenade. We were afraid, we who were inside. This happened twice within

19 two or three minutes' time. Fortunately nothing happened. It was not a

20 grenade.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Again, Judge, may I remind you to try and

22 answer the question and nothing else. The question was: "And you also

23 said that he had been involved in ethnic cleansing in Mahala; is that

24 correct?" So the answer is either yes or no, and you said "I think so.

25 That's my assumption."

Page 5830

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President.

2 I think that there is a problem with the translation. It concerns the

3 word "nettoyage," which in fact means "cleaning up."

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, "nettoyage," is cleaning up, but the

5 translation that I had and also in the transcript it's ethnic cleansing.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But that's not what I

7 said. Exactly. I was speaking about --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, we are not talking about ethnic cleansing.

9 These are things that happen in this Trial Chamber shifting from one

10 language to another. Madam Fauveau is asking you or asked you whether

11 you -- you still stand by your previous statement that this person was

12 also involved in the cleaning up of Mahala where your residence was.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. The way I had put it.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You stand by that statement.

15 Madam Fauveau, yes, please. Go ahead.

16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. How do you know that this man was a member of the army?

18 A. By his military uniform.

19 Q. When you say a military uniform, could you describe this military

20 uniform.

21 A. Camouflage uniform, military. I remember that he had a beard,

22 glasses -- sunglasses. He had short gloves on his hands, short leather

23 gloves without the top part of the fingers on the gloves. I think that I

24 knew that person. I think that I knew him.

25 Q. Could you identify him?

Page 5831

1 A. I think I can.

2 Q. Could you tell us his name?

3 A. I don't know the name. But as for the last name, I think it was

4 Stupar. I also think that he was an electric technician by training.

5 Q. Do you know who was involved in the cleaning up in Mahala?

6 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, may I just -- I'm now a bit

7 unclear. Clearly what the judge was talking about was ethnic cleansing.

8 Is what Madam Fauveau talking about ethnic cleansing? That's the trouble

9 with this translation. But if you look at the -- I checked on the

10 original answer, and it's clear that the suggestion was that this man was

11 involved in the ethnic cleansing.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was, as put in the transcript -- yes,

13 it was like that. But I think she's corrected it --

14 MS. KORNER: I know. But it's very --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: She didn't correct it.

16 MS. KORNER: It's unclear by using the word in French,

17 "nettoyage," is Madam Fauveau talking about cleaning up as in cleaning

18 lavatories or cleaning as in cleaning out people, which is ethnic

19 cleansing?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps, Madam Fauveau, you could make that clear.

21 It is clear to me after having brought it up myself -- or after you

22 brought it up, actually. But perhaps you could clarify this for us once

23 and for all. And then I will ask the judge, the witness, if he has

24 anything to add or change to his evidence. What do you mean by

25 "nettoyage" in the context of the questions you have been putting to the

Page 5832

1 witness, please?

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] When I mention cleaning,

3 I'm talking about the sanitation of the terrain in Mahala. And what the

4 word "nettoyage" in French means is that it doesn't mean ethnic cleansing

5 when you use this word in French.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, you have heard -- I suppose the

7 translation -- the interpretation has already been done. You've heard

8 what Madam Fauveau has just explained. And I repeat the question that

9 Madam Fauveau had put to you, whether you stand by your previous -- by

10 your alleged previous statement that this particular person that beat you

11 up with the short baseball bat was also involved in the -- I'm going to

12 use the word now that has been interpreted -- sanitation process of Mahala

13 or whether you meant something else.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by my statement.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Madam Fauveau, you may proceed, please.

16 Thank you.

17 Is that clear enough for you, Ms. Korner, now?

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll clarify the matter.

19 Q. Could you tell us who was involved in the cleaning up in Mahala in

20 the sense of sanitising the terrain?

21 A. Sanitising the terrain? At that time I was in prison. But what

22 I learned was that in sanitising the terrain, the work brigade took

23 part -- or rather, the work team of the public utility enterprise of

24 Sanski Most, where they -- where there were workers, gypsies and Bosniaks.

25 That is what has to do with the -- with sanitising the terrain, because

Page 5833

1 that's what you asked me.

2 Q. Could you confirm that the army was not involved in this

3 sanitisation process of the terrain?

4 A. According to what I knew and what I found out, the army took part

5 in the ethnic cleansing of Mahala, in the demolition of Mahala, torching

6 Mahala, expelling the population. That's what the army did. And it

7 was the 6th Krajina Brigade at that.

8 Q. I'll return to this matter later. Right now I'm talking about the

9 sanitisation of the terrain.

10 MS. KORNER: All right. I think Madam Fauveau is going to have to

11 actually spell out in clear terms what she means by "sanitisation,"

12 because at the moment there's real -- the witness is saying expelling

13 people, burning houses, and so forth. I'm not at all clear, and I don't

14 think he is, what Madam Fauveau means [Realtime transcript read in error

15 "Dominican Republic"] by the term she's using.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it was explained last week by the witness

17 himself. But I perfectly agree that perhaps you could ask the question

18 directly, what you mean by sanitation -- sanitisation process of Mahala

19 and whether the witness is meaning the same thing. I mean, you did give

20 evidence last week on also by reference to some documents that were shown

21 to you to the sanitisation process in some areas. Is this what you are

22 referring to? In other words, the clearing up of the terrain from dead

23 bodies or remains of persons, of corpses?

24 And is this what you mean by the word, Madam Fauveau? Because you

25 can't possibly have a situation where you're talking at cross-purposes.

Page 5834

1 Could you explain to the witness, please, in your own words relating --

2 with reference to your question what you mean by "sanitisation process,"

3 something that you referred to as cleaning, nettoyage, earlier on?

4 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Before Madam Fauveau

5 explains --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone, Ms. Korner.

8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. Before --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, your microphone.

10 MS. KORNER: I'll start again. On the screen, I appear to have

11 said "I'm not at all clear and I don't think he is what Madam Fauveau is

12 Dominican Republic.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I see it. Yes.

14 MS. KORNER: Now, I don't remember what I said, but I certainly

15 can't have said that. Does anyone have the faintest idea. Because this

16 is the trouble. One tries to go back through the note that comes out to

17 make these corrections, but sometimes it's impossible to work out.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's start with that. You did not mention at

19 any time the Dominican Republic, Madam Fauveau, did you?

20 MS. KORNER: It was me. Not her


22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It wasn't me.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But you did not mention.

24 MS. KORNER: I didn't.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Neither did you.

Page 5835

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, for once it wasn't me.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So now my question: Could you please explain to the

3 witness in your own words and also to the Trial Chamber what you meant by

4 "sanitisation process."

5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I could just ask the

6 registrar to show -- show the witness document P643.

7 Q. When I talk about the cleaning up of the terrain in Mahala or the

8 sanitisation of the terrain, I'm referring to what is noted in this

9 document in paragraph 2. And my question to the witness was: Was the

10 army involved in this work?

11 A. The army took part in the attack. As for the sanitisation, what

12 His Honour asked about, I already said that a work unit took part. I

13 don't know whether they were attached to the municipal staff or the

14 civilian defence or -- but it was workers of the public utility enterprise

15 for sure. And among them were the Roma who worked in the public utility

16 enterprise.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now, Judge, just to clarify this whole

18 incident now once and for all, my question to you is: So when you were

19 previously asked by Madam Fauveau whether the person that beat you up with

20 the baseball bat, that you think was known as Stupar or -- Stupar and who

21 you said was also a member of the military, whether he was involved in the

22 sanitisation process -- in other words, the removal of bodies -- in the

23 Mahala or whether he was involved in some other kind of cleansing when you

24 made that statement, what did you mean when you previously last week

25 stated that this particular individual, this person, was involved in the

Page 5836

1 cleansing of Mahala? Did you mean the -- ethnic cleansing or did you mean

2 the sanitisation process?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant that this person took part

4 in ethnic cleansing. That is to say, in the attack on Mahala and in

5 expelling the population from Mahala, because no one remained in Mahala.

6 There were only ruins there.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that clarifies the issue for you as

8 well, Madam Fauveau. And possibly you may proceed to another question.

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I would nevertheless like to clarify a point since at the hearing

11 of the 25th of April -- on page 4979 of the French transcript -- the

12 witness stated: That man -- and was speaking about the person with the

13 baseball bat -- that man worked or carried out sanitisation work because

14 he had gloves in Mahala -- he had gloves without fingers -- the finger

15 parts had been cut off. I would like to know how such a description could

16 be used for a person who was carrying out ethnic cleansing. This

17 description corresponds exactly to a person who is involved in the

18 sanitisation of the terrain.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the sitting of 25th of April?

20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The 25th of April. Page

21 4979 in the French transcript. Unfortunately I don't have it in the

22 English version.

23 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... but it goes on

24 to say: "He wore glasses and he was in uniform. I think his name is

25 Stupar."

Page 5837

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, I am going to read out to you what, according

2 to the transcript, you said to us during the 49th sitting, that is on the

3 25th of April. You are reported here to have said the following:

4 Question: "And finally just before we have the break, did the

5 person who hit you with the baseball bat, what was he? What was his job?"

6 And you answered: "This man, I think, was cleaning the Mahala,

7 because he wore black gloves with the fingers cut off. He wore glasses

8 and he was in uniform. I think his name is Stupar."

9 Then there was a further question: "Okay. I'm sorry to stop

10 you. But was that -- was he a policeman, a military policeman -- or a

11 military or an ordinary policeman -- military police or ordinary

12 military?"

13 And you answered: "He was from the military. I don't know

14 whether he was a military policeman."

15 And that's when we then had the break, soon after that. So I

16 think that Madam Fauveau's question is pretty much in order. What did the

17 fact that you saw this man, military or not military is not that important

18 for the time being -- wearing gloves, black gloves, with the fingers --

19 half mittens, we call them -- with the fingers cut off mean to you? And

20 how and why did you relate it to some kind of cleaning of the Mahala that

21 you referred to in your evidence on that day?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When he saw me, he knew I was from

23 Mahala, and he mentioned this. He said, "We've done away with Mahala,"

24 and he was cussing and things like that. As a matter of fact, when I

25 returned to the cell, I talked about that to the other prisoners.

Page 5838

1 JUDGE AGIUS: But you've still not answered my question. Usually

2 when I see someone wearing half mittens, I get the impression that that

3 person may have bad circulation or that he needs to keep his hands warm

4 while he is working. That's what I associate the wearing of half mittens

5 with, someone who needs to keep his hands warm while at the same time

6 having the tips of the finger free.

7 Now, you're saying that this man was wearing black gloves with the

8 fingers cut off, and you seem to be associating this with the cleaning of

9 Mahala. Why would you or anyone else associate the wearing of black half

10 mittens with the cleaning of Mahala? What does wearing black gloves with

11 the fingers cut off have to do with the cleaning of Mahala at a time when

12 I suppose you were not referring to the removal of the dead bodies?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These gloves, they are a special

14 type. They're used for handling weapons. And there were such persons who

15 were in these units. I'm not linking him up with the gloves. I'm saying

16 what I heard. He said this himself. I mean when I got back to the cell,

17 some of the persons who were in the cell told me everything about him. I

18 think that this policeman, the one who escorted me to the cell, told me

19 that he had just returned. I mean, it was a long time ago. It's hard to

20 remember all these details. But please do not link the gloves with that,

21 because it was military policemen who had these gloves, all of them more

22 or less who were involved in these actions, these armed actions, that is.

23 It has nothing to do with what the lady -- the Defence counsel asked me

24 about. It has nothing to do with this sanitation.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

Page 5839

1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, Your Honours may want to look at

2 the evidence of Mr. -- Mr. Dzonlic who gave evidence about these types of

3 gloves as well.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But the person who is giving evidence is the

5 witness.

6 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated].

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But now I think it's pretty clear enough that if

9 he's referring to gloves, strictly military gloves -- I have gloves like

10 those, for example, which I use for driving sometimes. But it's --

11 Yes, Madam Fauveau, if you want to put further questions on this

12 particular incident, you may. But I think it's clear enough, and I

13 suggest you move to something else.

14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have one other question

15 concerning this man.

16 Q. How did you know that this man was a member of the army and not a

17 member of the SOS forces or of the Territorial Defence?

18 A. His military uniform, first and foremost. I also heard about him

19 from other prisoners.

20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Would it perhaps be a good

21 time to have a break? Because I'm going to move on to another subject.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Certainly, Madam Fauveau.

23 We'll now have a break, again for 30 minutes, resuming at five to

24 1.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

Page 5840

1 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just apologise for keeping Your

3 Honours waiting. I'm afraid that I wasn't aware that the time had gone on

4 like that.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. Korner, thank you.

6 Yes, Madam Fauveau. You may proceed.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. At the hearing of the 25th of April, on page 4988 -- you said that

9 a group of policemen and soldiers made you go out to see what was

10 happening in Mahala on the 27th of May in the afternoon. Do you remember

11 this?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And on page 89 -- 4989 at the same date, you said this group on

14 the 25th of May came at 5.00 in the morning. Could you explain this --

15 these differences.

16 A. That's not what I said.

17 Q. I'll quote here. It's on page 4989 of the French transcript, line

18 10. "As I said, at 5.00 in the morning on the 27th of May, a policeman

19 arrived and he opened the door to the cell. He was armed and he was

20 accompanied by several other persons."

21 A. One policeman, yes. One policeman who opened the door.

22 Q. Did you leave the prison and police station on the 27th of May in

23 the morning or in the afternoon in order to see what was happening in

24 Mahala?

25 A. They took us out of the cells in the afternoon. It was a large

Page 5841

1 group of policemen and soldiers.

2 Q. On the same page, 4989, on the 25th of April you said that these

3 soldiers who were in this group were the ones, the soldiers, who had been

4 in Mahala. At the time that the soldiers were in Mahala, you were in

5 prison; isn't that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. So you personally were not able to see these soldiers in Mahala;

8 is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. You said on page 4997 that the members of the 6th Brigade

11 destroyed the mosque. Is it true that at the time the mosque was

12 destroyed, you were in prison?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. So you personally did not see the destruction -- you did not see

15 the mosque being destroyed.

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. At the hearing of the 16th of May, you spoke about the destruction

18 of a mosque in November 1992. I think that was in the village of Sehovci,

19 the village in which your sister lived.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You personally did not see this destruction; is that correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

24 the witness documents DT11 and DT10.

25 Q. Could you look at document DT10. It's an order from

Page 5842

1 General Talic. And the date is the 23rd of June, 1992. Is it true that

2 in the first paragraph of this order, General Talic forbids the

3 destruction of religious buildings -- the destruction and the damaging of

4 religious buildings?

5 A. Are you asking me? Ask him. I know that the buildings were

6 destroyed, all of them.

7 Q. Is it true that in the first paragraph of this order, the

8 destruction and damaging of mosques is forbidden?

9 A. In the first paragraph, what it says it says. But this is pro

10 forma.

11 Q. Could you read what is written in the first paragraph.

12 A. You want me to read it? You can read it too.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, please read the first paragraph and then you

14 may be asked questions upon it.

15 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm not sure what questions he can

16 be asked. We've seen the document before. We know the order. What's he

17 supposed to say about it unless he saw it before?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, we'll see what questions Madam Fauveau has

19 afterwards.

20 MS. KORNER: All right.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But he's been -- it -- I mean, as -- the judge

22 should know that what is -- what is a regular question and what is not

23 regular. I mean -- and he is free to then answer the -- in any way he

24 deems fit. And he has already hinted as what he thinks about this

25 particular document. But I do have to accept Madam Fauveau's request.

Page 5843

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't read this.

2 This is hypocritical.

3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm sorry. We've read it. Why

4 read it aloud? Unless he's seen this order before, where are we going to

5 get to with this.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ever see this document before, Judge?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the first time you're seeing it.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't remember. Probably.

10 I haven't read all of it now either. I've just read the first paragraph.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So read it all, please.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if it's easier

13 for the witness, I'll ask the question again, if he wants to reply to it.

14 Q. Is it true that General Talic forbade the destruction and the

15 infliction of damage on mosques? If he can answer this question, it won't

16 be necessary for him to read this document.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That, I think he has already answered. He told you

18 that it says what it says, but that he considers it as hypocritical.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But when he say that

20 is the document states what it states, that doesn't mean either yes or

21 no.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree, Judge, that on the face of it this

23 document in paragraph number 1, numbered number "1," states that General

24 Momir Talic is ordering to ensure at all levels of command that religious

25 buildings or cemeteries of any religion are not desecrated in combat

Page 5844

1 operations or any other situations? Do you agree that in its first

2 numbered paragraph, this statement or this document says precisely what I

3 have read out to you? I have the -- I have the version in English. I

4 don't understand your language. And the question that has been put to you

5 by Madam Fauveau is perfectly in order. Do you agree that this first

6 paragraph says what I read out to you?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree. I agree.


9 Madam Fauveau, next question.

10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Could you now have a look at the document DT11. It's a document

12 which was signed by General Talic. Someone signed on his behalf. It's a

13 document from the 1st Krajina Corps command, which again reminds people of

14 the fact that religious buildings should not be destroyed or damaged; is

15 that correct?

16 A. That's what it says here.

17 Q. At the hearing of the 24th of April -- it's page 4924 -- you spoke

18 about the director of Sanski Most radio who had been forcibly expelled

19 from the radio. Do you remember speaking about this?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were you personally present in the radio station when this

22 expulsion took place?

23 A. I was not personally present at the radio station itself, but I

24 got a report as to what had happened.

25 Q. But you personally didn't see the director of the radio being

Page 5845

1 expelled.

2 A. I said that.

3 Q. At the hearing of the 13th of May, you spoke about a killing that

4 took place in Skrljevita and in which the Croats were the victims.

5 Perhaps that was near Kruhari. And you said on the 13th of May -- it's

6 page 67 of the LiveNote -- that no proceedings had been instituted against

7 the perpetrators of these crimes, against the killers. Do you stand by

8 this statement?

9 A. Not by the -- not at the court in Sanski Most. I think that a

10 criminal report was filed in the court in Banja Luka. I don't know what

11 happened. During the last five or six months perhaps -- that is to say,

12 as of recent -- the investigating judge at the district court in Banja

13 Luka, Mr. Slobodan Milasinovic, contacted me by telephone, and he asked me

14 whether there were any documents -- or rather, there was a case pertaining

15 to the perpetrators of that crime. I assume that perhaps proceedings have

16 been instituted and are taking place right now before the court in Banja

17 Luka.

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

19 the witness document DT12 and DT13.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Judge, if this is the first time you are seeing

21 these two documents, I will give you time to have a look at them before I

22 authorise Madam Fauveau to put questions to you.

23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I direct the witness

24 to look at document DT12 first of all, the document which is an

25 indictment.

Page 5846

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I have seen

2 this indictment, and I don't know when it was issued.

3 Q. In the Serbo-Croat version that I have here, the date can't be

4 read. But in the English version, the date is the 2nd of June, 1993.

5 A. That's possible. But I wonder if anybody has been actually

6 convicted. Last time I talked about this I said that, and I said that to

7 the best of my knowledge nobody was convicted.

8 Q. The question which was put to you on the 13th of May -- it's page

9 67 of the LiveNote -- the question was: [In English] "Do you know whether

10 a trial ever took place?" [Interpretation] And your reply was: [In

11 English] "No, never."

12 A. I don't know if there was a trial, because the indictment on its

13 own doesn't say anything to me. If you have a decision, a judgement,

14 that's different.

15 MS. KORNER: I think again we better be careful. If -- is

16 Madam Fauveau suggesting that an actual trial, as opposed to -- because

17 there's no question prosecution was commenced. But the question of

18 trial --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

20 MS. KORNER: Yes. Is the suggestion to the judge that an actual

21 trial, a hearing and a sentence took place?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: For the time being, Ms. Korner, I understand that

23 the direction of the question that she has asked was to establish whether

24 the witness was as categoric as he pretended to be when he gave evidence

25 on the 22nd of May -- or whenever you said he gave it.

Page 5847

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] On the 13th of May.

2 MS. KORNER: [Previouos translation continues] ... of the actual

3 official transcript.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And in actual fact, if she is -- I don't have the

5 transcript here in front of me. But if she is right in quoting what the

6 witness said on that occasion and considering the answer that he has given

7 now, she has already established or made at least the first point that she

8 needed or she wanted to make.

9 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, she left out the beginning part of

10 my question, which makes it clear.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But she is -- she can go ahead with asking

12 that question now.

13 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, you don't understand. The actual

14 full question -- because -- that's what I mean about the definition of a

15 trial. Because my question actually reads -- I said: "From your

16 investigations, was he ever prosecuted, brought to trial, or serve any

17 sentence? And I then said I'll then rephrase that because that's three

18 questions rolled into one. First of all, we see that a prosecution was

19 launched in respect of these matters. Then do you know whether or not a

20 trial actually took place?"

21 So that what I mean. You --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And his answer on that occasion was?

23 MS. KORNER: "No, never." But that's what I mean. It's

24 misleading the way it was put.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You are right now. I have it clear now. So the

Page 5848

1 question ought to be whether he stands by that previous statement of his,

2 that to his knowledge there was never a trial -- a trial to the ordinary

3 sense of the word as we understand it in our environment.

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That was my understanding

5 of this word.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware whether a trial took place or not? In

7 other words, do you stand by your previous statement that there -- to your

8 knowledge there was never any such trial?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, there was never

10 any such trial.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one was ever convicted.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I got the impression earlier on when we started on

14 this incident that you were hinting that there may be some proceedings

15 pending now. Am I right, or did I get you wrong?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are quite right. You are quite

17 right. The court in Banja Luka asked me for information, and I have the

18 feeling that the trial is taking place right now against these persons,

19 right now.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that clarifies more or less the picture.

21 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And this document, DT12, which you have in front of you, it is an

24 indictment concerning the killing in Skrljevita; is that correct?

25 A. These are persons from Skrljevita, and the killing was in Kruhari.

Page 5849

1 That is correct.

2 Q. Very well. Is it correct that the indictment can be addressed

3 according to Yugoslav law after the investigation has been accomplished?

4 So an indictment can be compiled after an investigation has been

5 accomplished.

6 After an investigation has been accomplished?

7 A. I think that's the way it is.

8 Q. And according to Yugoslav law, the investigation procedure is part

9 of the process, of the criminal process.

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. So as this process of trial was engaged in 1992 and 1993; isn't

12 that correct?

13 A. I don't know whether an investigation was carried out there at

14 all.

15 Q. How according to Yugoslav law could an indictment be issued if the

16 investigation hadn't been carried out and if this concerned a crime that

17 had been described as aggravated murder?

18 A. I don't know whether there was an investigation here at all. This

19 was conducted by the military court and the office of the military

20 prosecutor. And shall I say of the Serb army.

21 Q. If you have a look at the first paragraph concerning the motives,

22 the first sentence which relates to the investigation.

23 A. It is mentioned, but I don't know whether it was actually carried

24 out.

25 Q. Is it true that the Penal Code requires that the investigation

Page 5850

1 procedure, which is obligatory for crimes of aggravated murder be carried

2 out?

3 A. The Law on Criminal Procedure does provide for that.

4 Q. Could you have a look at document DT13. It's a decision from the

5 military court in Banja Luka. And once again, the Serbo-Croat version is

6 very bad. And in the English version, the date is the 9th of July, 1993.

7 Do you agree that this is a decision that concerns detention?

8 A. I can't read it, because the copy is not a good one. Have you got

9 another copy?

10 Q. I have the copy that I was provided with by the Prosecutor.

11 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I'm afraid there isn't a better copy. It

12 was taken from the court records, and that was the best we could do.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, I have the same copy that you have. As I see

14 it, if you divide this page into two parts, the second part which starts

15 after the word [B/C/S spoken], the next two or three or four paragraphs,

16 with the exception of a few letters here and there are legible. I don't

17 know whether yours is exactly like mine, your text, the one that you have,

18 but with the exception as I see, there are only a few letters, and for

19 anyone who knows the language, I don't think they are such that would make

20 a difference except maybe in the third paragraph, the one which has only

21 got a line and a half. Otherwise, if you perhaps could make an effort,

22 you should be able to provide Defence counsel with an answer.

23 Forget about the first part, because there -- I agree there are

24 lines which are absolutely illegible. But the substantive part of the

25 document -- in other words, where there is the statement of reasons, you

Page 5851

1 should be able to read.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can confirm that -- or rather, I

3 can answer that question. The decision and the statement of reasons shows

4 that it does have to do with detention for Danilusko Kajtez and for Milos

5 Maksimovic [phoen].

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We're talking of pre-trial confinement -- pre-trial

7 detention custody pending trial; correct.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think there is a problem

9 with the translation.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It is not the first or last time we are

11 encountering this problem.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness quite clearly

13 said that it was a decision for pre-trial detention, and I don't think

14 that this appears in the English translation.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Pre-trial detention.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Yes.

17 Next question.

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You spoke about two transports to Manjaca, on the 6th and on the

20 12th of June. And you said that on each occasion, six persons

21 disappeared. Is that correct?

22 A. In one transport, six; in the other transport, six. A total of 12

23 in these two transports.

24 Q. On the 6th and 12th of June, 1992, you were personally in the

25 police station in Sanski Most; is that correct?

Page 5852

1 A. I was in prison, in the prison of the public security station in

2 Sanski Most.

3 Q. You weren't present when these lorries were transporting the

4 people; is that correct?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. You spoke about Hivzo Hodzic, who was the president of the SDA in

7 Sanski Most. And you said that he had been killed on the 17th of July,

8 1992 while he was in the transport to Manjaca; is that correct?

9 A. I think it was on the 7th of July.

10 Q. You're right. It was on the 7th of July.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And at the time, you were already in Manjaca; is that right?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. You were not personally present when this -- when these lorries

15 were transporting the people.

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. When you were personally transported to Manjaca, who were the

18 guards accompanying you?

19 A. From Sanski Most towards Manjaca?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Drago Vujanic was there. He was the commander of the prison at

22 that time. He has a degree in law. Then there was Zoran Despot. He is

23 a crime investigation inspector from the public security station. And I

24 saw the two of them, and they took me out of jail. And I saw them from

25 the back in the police car, and they escorted us to Manjaca. And at

Page 5853

1 Manjaca, Vujanic was calling us out from the truck, telling us to jump

2 off. I didn't see anybody else.

3 Q. When you were being transported to Manjaca, was there anyone among

4 the prisoners who was killed?

5 A. Nobody was killed in my transport.

6 Q. And was there anyone among the prisoners who died during this

7 transport?

8 A. I already said that.

9 Q. I assume that the answer is no.

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. You said that the commander of the Manjaca camp was someone called

12 Popovic.

13 A. That was that person's last name. His first name was Bozidar.

14 Q. And you said that this person called Popovic was familiar with the

15 situation in the Manjaca camp.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know whether this Popovic informed his superior of the

18 situation in Manjaca?

19 A. I don't know about that.

20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

21 the witness document DT13 -- DT3.

22 [In English] DT3.

23 MS. KORNER: Is this a document that we were notified about?

24 Because we don't seem to have it here.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] We don't have it --

Page 5854

1 MS. KORNER: Oh, I know. Yes. It's a drawing of Manjaca. Yes.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Document DT3.

3 It's my fault, Mr. President. The document is DT2. Perhaps we

4 could put it on the ELMO, since you don't have it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you can hand the witness the B/C/S version and

6 put the English one on the ELMO, because the map -- or the sketch, the

7 drawing of the camp, we have. But that's -- I understand now is not --

8 not the document.

9 MS. KORNER: That's what we've got it down as, yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Fauveau, you have not more than three or

11 four minutes to conclude. Thank you.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Do you agree that this is an order from General Talic dated the

14 7th of June, 1992?

15 A. This is what it says here. I don't know.

16 Q. And it also says in the last paragraph, paragraph 3: "It is

17 necessary to behave towards the prisoners in a dignified and humane way,

18 without attacking them. They must not be insulted, and they must not be

19 frightened. They should be provided with medical care. The sick should

20 be provided with medical care and with accommodation according to the

21 rules of international war" -- is that correct -- "according to the rules

22 of international war law."

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. And I'm asking you what is written in paragraph 3. Or if you

25 prefer, you could read this paragraph.

Page 5855

1 A. That's what it says, the way you said it. However --

2 Q. Could you have a look at page 2 of this document. Among the

3 addressees of this order, you can find Manjaca too.

4 A. I can't see Manjaca anywhere. Yes. Yes, it says "Manjaca

5 training ground." Yes, Manjaca training ground.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. Manjaca training ground. I don't know what they meant by

8 "training ground," because its diameter was 40 kilometres.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So that brings us to the end of today's session. We

10 will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 sharp. The witness can be escorted

11 out.

12 Thank you, Judge. We will meet again tomorrow morning.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I've just got one matter before we

14 forget about it and we move along too far. I raised last week sometime

15 the question of the -- Mr. Dzonlic's documents, and I still haven't had a

16 response whether it's accepted or whether I need to put them in as an

17 exhibit. That is those letters.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ackerman needed some time.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, I'd be quite grateful so we can deal

20 with it before we get far away from it.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I promise we'll have an opportunity to deal with it

22 before this case ends, Your Honour, quite a lot sooner than that, Your

23 Honour. We do need to get through them.

24 MS. KORNER: There's only seven, Your Honour. So I really would

25 like an answer by the end of this week

Page 5856

1 [The witness stands down].

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, judge. We'll deal with it before the end

3 of this week in one way or another.

4 Thank you. We'll all meet tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

6 at 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

7 the 22nd day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.