Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5946

1 Thursday, 23 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning. Mr. Brdjanin --

7 Could you call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

9 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Good morning, Mr. Brdjanin. Can you hear me in a language that

12 you can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

14 I can hear you and I understand.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 General Talic, good morning to you. Can you hear me in a language

17 that you can understand?

18 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I

19 can hear you in a language I understand.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. General Talic, you may sit down.

21 Appearance for the Prosecution.

22 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, assisted by Susan Grogan, case

23 manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Ms. Korner.

25 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

Page 5947

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman

2 along with Tanja Radosavljevic and Milan Trbojevic. And I'd just like to

3 say that I'm becoming very worried about Mr. Cayley, and I hope he's

4 okay.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Ackerman.

6 Appearances for General Talic.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your

8 Honours. I'm Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau, and I am with Fabien Masson. I

9 represent General Talic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

11 Ms. Korner, yesterday just before we rose you made a statement

12 with regard to the 92 bis statement.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Witnesses.

15 MS. KORNER: I don't have my list with me I'm afraid this morning,

16 Your Honour, so I can't repeat it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Perhaps you can come back --

18 MS. KORNER: After the break --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: After the break. What I wanted to know was the

20 position with regard to Witness 7.118. You will recall that in our

21 decision, we had directed the redaction of certain parts from the

22 statement.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, I handed that up to Your Honours.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And you've --

25 MS. KORNER: And I've heard nothing back from anybody about that.

Page 5948

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You handed the documents to us.

2 MS. KORNER: And to the Defence.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But I can only speak for myself.

4 I have been through them. The only thing is that it suddenly

5 dawned on me last night, sometime during the night, that I wasn't quite

6 sure whether that was wasted time; in other words, whether this witness is

7 going to be brought forward or not.

8 MS. KORNER: No. No, no. We accepted Your Honours' reactions as

9 it were -- or the order that if we wished to put it in, we should redact.

10 And so we did the redactions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But is he one of those witness that is you are not

12 going to produce after all?

13 MS. KORNER: No. Because you said we could have him in under Rule

14 92 provided we redacted.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And the other thing is in our judgement,

16 there is a short reference to an objection raised by Brdjanin -- by

17 Mr. Ackerman relative to a part of the statement where we didn't -- the

18 part in which it is stated by the witness that Brdjanin was the president

19 of the ARK -- of the ARK rather than president of the ARK Crisis Staff.

20 And more or less we said that this is something that could be remedied

21 either by a declaration forthcoming from the Prosecution that this is

22 evidently a mistake or in some other manner.

23 MS. KORNER: I think, Your Honour, we said that in the -- in our

24 response. But I'll certainly say --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think so. I don't think so. But in -- any

Page 5949

1 way, I will check. But please do keep that in mind just before you

2 actually produce this witness later on.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Because this witness will evidently come.

5 Yes.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: My position, Your Honour, is that it's not a

7 mistake. It's evidence that this witness doesn't know what he's talking

8 about.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes. Okay. But it is obviously wrong, you

10 know, I mean, and that's something that -- rather than being redacted, it

11 is something that can be corrected either through the witness himself or

12 through the Prosecution in -- we even suggested that you could handle it

13 yourself actually, but we can't expect the Defence -- anything from the

14 Defence.

15 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The rights of the Defence are.

17 MS. KORNER: I think if we come to an agreement rather than having

18 to go back and take an additional one-line statement from a witness and

19 the expense involved. But Your Honour, I think the only thing we're

20 waiting for then is whether the Defence are happy with the redactions.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay. And perhaps if you could come back to

22 Ms. Korner on the rest, both Madam Fauveau -- and Madam Fauveau in

23 particular -- and yourself, Mr. Ackerman, I would appreciate that.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Monday, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So having said that --

Page 5950

1 MS. KORNER: Just two matters, Your Honour. As a result of the

2 complaint made yesterday that --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one?

4 MS. KORNER: Yes, that's true.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Because usually at the end of the day I lose count

6 of them.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes. It was the complaint that the Registry appeared

8 to be shielding AID by having lost all the relevant documentation. That's

9 a joke, Your Honour. And I don't think Mr. Ackerman meant it to

10 be -- or Madam Fauveau. We went back through our own files yesterday, and

11 we have found the relevant documentation that related to that aspect of

12 the Kvocka case. And this morning I have provided -- it's not formal

13 disclosure, as I pointed out to both Defence counsel out of the goodness

14 of our heart -- all the documentation that relates to that that we can

15 find. I am -- that is not to say -- and I make that absolutely clear --

16 that I do object to the whole matter being dealt with, with this

17 witness.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

19 MS. KORNER: And the second matter is this, Your Honour:

20 Obviously we're all anxious to let this witness go today.


22 MS. KORNER: I do have some re-examination. I'm not altogether

23 sure how much longer Mr. Ackerman is going to be, but I would ask perhaps

24 that today we shorten the breaks so that it is possible we can get this

25 witness away.

Page 5951

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I will take that into consideration. We'll

2 see what the progress will be, because it also depends on how the witness

3 reacts to the questions.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes. And the third matter is that no doubt

5 Mr. Ackerman, maybe others, will be delighted to hear they'll have

6 Mr. Cayley next week and not me.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Having had a haircut presumably.

8 Yes. Witness, please.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Judge Draganovic. Could we proceed

12 with the solemn declaration straight away, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

15 and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

19 Judge, our apologies to you for starting -- for bringing you in

20 the courtroom 15 minutes late, but we had some preliminary procedural

21 matters to deal with, and we have concluded.

22 Mr. Ackerman will be proceeding with his cross-examination.

23 Whether you will have to return on Monday or not will very much depend on

24 how you answer these questions; in other words, if you choose to give long

25 answers, you'll probably end up spending the weekend here. So try to take

Page 5952

1 my advice and answer the question, the whole question, and nothing but the

2 question.

3 Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]

6 Q. Good morning.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. We were talking when we broke yesterday about your investigations

9 upon your return to Sanski Most in the fall of 1995. In the course of

10 those investigations, did you determine how many Serb civilians were

11 killed when the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina captured Sanski Most?

12 A. I didn't estimate that --

13 Q. Did you investigate that at all?

14 A. Or rather -- in some cases, yes, I did.

15 Q. I'd like you to be shown Exhibit DB81 B, please.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in respect to this exhibit, I have

17 already raised it with Mr. Ackerman. I'm not going to object to it being

18 shown, but I do suggest that it has certain limitations. It appears to be

19 pages from a book.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Similar to pages from books that Ms. Korner has

21 presented, Your Honour. But I think when she hears the question I'm going

22 to ask, she won't have any difficulty with it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anyway, her comment, remark, or objection --

24 call it whatever you wish -- goes on record, and then we'll see

25 afterwards. Let's hear the question first.

Page 5953


2 Q. You will find if you get past the opening pages a --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Will you -- before telling him what he will find --

4 tell him what this document is, please, Mr. Ackerman, without having --

5 without needing to put questions first. Tell him --

6 MR. ACKERMAN: What I'm showing -- yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Where it originates from, please.


9 Q. What I'm showing you, sir, is a -- some pages from a book called

10 "To forget is to murder the truth," published apparently in Novi Sad in

11 the year 2000. The page I'm interested in having you look at is -- it's a

12 list of people killed in Sanski Most, according to the book. There's a

13 list of 23 people. The only question that I have of you -- I'm not going

14 to go through each of those persons. My only question is: Do you

15 recognise the names of any of those persons and did you conduct any

16 investigation regarding the killing of any of those 23 persons?

17 A. I don't know anything about these names. Perhaps only one of the

18 names means something to me; perhaps number 2. This is on the basis of

19 the surname. But I'm not sure. Pero Grubor. I think that I carried

20 out an investigation. I think so, but I'm not a hundred per cent sure.

21 Q. All right. When the -- the army captured Sanski Most in 1995,

22 what happened to the Serb population of Sanski Most, the civilians? Where

23 did they go?

24 A. Before I arrived in Sanski Most, the civilians of Serbian

25 nationality had mainly left the town. That was on the 10th of October.

Page 5954

1 Most of them had left. That's the information I was given. And on the

2 television in Germany, this is what I saw. And very few civilians of

3 Serbian nationality remained in Sanski Most. I met those people -- I

4 would meet those people in Sanski Most, but there were very few of them.

5 Q. And what happened to their homes? Their homes were looted then,

6 weren't they?

7 A. I don't know if they were looted.

8 Q. Did you investigate the looting of any of the Serb homes?

9 A. I can't remember having done so.

10 Q. Since -- since Dayton, have you made an effort to assist former

11 Serb residents in getting their property restored to them and their return

12 to Sanski Most? Have you helped out with that?

13 A. Yes, I have, on numerous occasions, and I always do that.

14 Q. Have you done anything as a judge to block the return of property

15 to former Serb residents pursuant to the Dayton Accords, to keep it from

16 happening?

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm just going to ask. I don't want

18 to -- to what issue in the case these questions go.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, if you'll bear with me. Trying to get

21 through today, I could ask you to excuse the witness and tell me. But if

22 you'll bear with me, it will be quite clear. I'm not off on some wild

23 tangent, I assure you. And it's up to you. If you want the witness to

24 leave and have me explain this to you, I can do it. If you trust me that

25 I'm not on some irrelevant tangent, then I can go ahead. It's up to

Page 5955

1 you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead for the time being. And then we'll

3 see.


5 Q. There was a pending question, sir: Have you done anything as a

6 judge to block the return of property to former Serb residents pursuant to

7 the Dayton Accords, to keep it from happening? You can probably just tell

8 me yes or no.

9 A. No.

10 Q. You told us yesterday that almost immediately after your return,

11 you started looking for documents; correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. And with regard to many of the documents that you have talked with

14 us about here, you have told us over and over that the original is in

15 Sanski Most.

16 A. That's correct. Part of the documents is in Bihac.

17 Q. Would I be correct if I understood you to mean that there is

18 somewhere housed in Sanski Most a collection of documents that were

19 gathered upon your return to Sanski Most by you and others?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And who controls that collection of documents? Who's in charge of

22 it?

23 A. The documents which were examined by an investigator from The

24 Hague Tribunal -- so upon the instructions of the investigator, these

25 documents are in the Tribunal. And the other documents which were

Page 5956

1 examined in other institutes -- so not in my home, not in my house --

2 they're probably there. And I know what the purpose of these documents

3 is. They're in the Tribunal. They are the documents in question, these

4 documents.

5 Q. Somehow we got lost. You told me that there was a collection of

6 documents in Sanski Most that were collected by you and others in 1995

7 after your return. My question was: Who controls that collection? Who

8 is in charge of that collection of documents? Who has custody of it, that

9 collection?

10 A. I've answered that question. The documents that I handed over to

11 investigators of The Hague Tribunal at the request of the investigator --

12 Q. I haven't asked you --

13 A. I have these documents in the Tribunal.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

15 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what happens, Judge. The question was not

16 restricted to those documents which you showed or handed over to the

17 Prosecutor or the investigators. The question related to all the

18 documents that you collected after your return to Sanski Most. And the

19 question is a very simple one: Who keeps these documents? Who is the

20 custodian of these documents?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's my responsibility to keep these

22 documents.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So you are the custodian.

24 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the simple answer.

Page 5957

1 Mr. Ackerman.


3 Q. In your capacity as custodian of these documents, would you be

4 willing to give an investigator employed by me, access to them, to look at

5 them?

6 A. At any time.

7 Q. All right. So I will send someone to visit you whose name is

8 Milos Peric and you will let him look at all the documents; correct?

9 A. Who is Milos Peric?

10 Q. An investigator that works for me.

11 A. I have to ask the Tribunal.

12 MS. KORNER: I don't think this is at all suitable method of

13 cross-examination, if -- the Judge is agreeing the details can be

14 discussed later.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anyway, he's just seeking a reply from -- and

16 he's had the reply. At one time he said, "Yes, at any time." And when he

17 heard the name Milos Peric, he said he requires the consent of the

18 Tribunal.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's what I mean. This is not

20 suitable. There are matters that arise as a result of that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: In my country, for example, there is no way you can

22 seek access to criminal records, except unless you are the Defence counsel

23 or the Prosecutor or the accused yourself.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, Your Honour, there are matters they need

25 to discuss with Mr. Ackerman about that. That's what I mean, there is not

Page 5958

1 a suitable forum for this.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. Ackerman will understand that too.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I don't know what Tribunal has to give him

4 permission for us to look at documents that he has collected.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But your question initially was in his

6 capacity as judge, and a judge --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think I ever said in your capacity as

8 judge, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course. Go back --

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he's been granted permission by -- the

11 witness has said he can have an investigator to look at these documents.

12 Arrangements will be made with Mr. Ackerman once the witness has finished.

13 He's here as a witness now, not in his capacity as custodian of documents.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm satisfied with where we are. He said yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exactly. So go ahead. I think you should

16 know where you are, Mr. Ackerman -- or you should know anyway.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Sometimes I don't, Your Honour.

18 Q. When you were searching for documents, you searched through

19 municipality, you've told us, the headquarters of the SDS, police station,

20 all of the government buildings and government offices there in Sanski

21 Most I think you looked for documents in. You also looked for documents

22 in some private homes, and one of those homes was that of Mr. Rasula,

23 Nedeljko Rasula. How did you -- how did you get access to his house?

24 A. Well, I had access to Mr. Rasula's house. A soldier lived there,

25 a soldier of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, who had just moved in. I

Page 5959

1 introduced myself. I said that I wanted to see whether there were any

2 documents in there that would serve as evidence because I said that that

3 was the house of the former president, and the man made it possible for me

4 to enter the house. That's all.

5 Q. Do you know how it was possible that a soldier of the Bosnian army

6 was permitted to live in Mr. Rasula's house? Do you know how that

7 happened?

8 A. Well, I think that the municipality would let people use such

9 premises temporarily. He was there with his family, his wife.

10 Q. So the municipality basically took control of the property of

11 Serbs who had left and then let members of the army and other people live

12 in those houses; is that what you're telling us?

13 A. I think that the municipality temporarily took it over in order to

14 put people up. It's not that they took anybody's property as their

15 permanent possession.

16 Q. Yes. Do you think perhaps the municipality was doing that to some

17 extent in a way to protect that property and keep it from being destroyed

18 until the owner was able to come back?

19 A. That was one of the reasons too.

20 Q. Yes. Who was with you when you went to search Rasula's house?

21 A. Another gentleman was there. His name is Dino -- or rather Edin

22 Aganovic.

23 Q. Is he a judge or a police officer or what? What was his official

24 position?

25 A. He had no position. He was attached to the municipality. He had

Page 5960

1 to do with -- he had things to do with agriculture. He helped me detect

2 mass graves. And I was coming back home from such a locality, and I just

3 happened to stop by Mr. Rasula's house.

4 Q. You also searched other homes, didn't you?

5 A. Well, very few. It's not that I searched private homes. Perhaps

6 only two or three I was interested in, belonging to the people in

7 positions of highest responsibility.

8 Q. Whose home besides Rasula's did you search?

9 A. I think I was in Radovan Stanic's apartment. He was a judge,

10 president of the court, and he was an investigator of the Serb state

11 security, and he was an investigator at Manjaca. I think I also searched

12 the house of the head of the crime prevention service, not others.

13 Q. With regard to Judge Stanic's house, how did you get access to

14 his apartment?

15 A. The apartment was open, unlocked. Nobody was there.

16 Q. And with regard to the head of the crime prevention service, how

17 did you get access to his house?

18 A. A family, a refugee family had been put up there. I introduced

19 myself to them. I said that I came to look for documents -- or rather, I

20 asked whether there were any, and they said there weren't any, and I think

21 I didn't even enter the house.

22 Q. All right. On the first day of your testimony, 23rd of April,

23 page 4866, you were asked about companies in Sanski Most. And the

24 question that I'm interested in and the answer I'm interested in was as

25 follows: "By the time of the elections in 1990, how many of them,

Page 5961

1 referring to companies in Sanski Most -- how many of them were privatised

2 or semi-privatised?" Your answer: "By 1990, there was no privatisation.

3 Those are all state-owned companies. Privatisation is only now going on

4 after the war." Do you stand by that answer, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And this answer, is it restricted to Sanski Most or was that the

7 case throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina that privatisation only started

8 occurring after the war?

9 A. Yes. I want to say that privatisation started after the war, when

10 the law on privatisation was passed.

11 Q. All right. Thank you.

12 I'm now going to ask you about an answer that you gave on the next

13 day, Wednesday, 24 April, at page 4914. You were asked about the

14 dismissals of Muslims from their employment in Sanski Most, and your

15 answer is: "The dismissals of Muslims started early in April. I think

16 after the 20th of April." And you then indicated that those dismissals

17 were all completed by 15 May. That was a correct answer, wasn't it? That

18 was the truth?

19 A. Well, on the 15th of May, I was expelled from the court. Perhaps

20 this went on for another few days. Bosniaks stayed behind in some of the

21 companies -- we can say, say, until the 20th of May -- say the 25th of May

22 at the latest, and then no one was left.

23 Q. And you were asked, sir, who ordered these dismissals, and your

24 answer was you think it came from the Crisis Staff of the SDS; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5962

1 Q. And before the Crisis Staff came into being, you said that it was

2 Rasula and Vrkes who were ordering these dismissals; right?

3 A. Well, the Crisis Staff was established before the dismissals

4 started.

5 Q. Now, when you talk about the Crisis Staff of the SDS, is that a

6 different Crisis Staff from the Crisis Staff that was headed by Rasula, or

7 is that the same Crisis Staff?

8 A. It's one in the same thing.

9 Q. All right. At page 4921, then, just a few moments later you were

10 talking about the dismissal of judges.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. At line -- well, your answer to a question had to do with the

13 creation of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. You

14 said that you had gone and had a conversation with Rasula. And your words

15 are the following: "I learnt from him that the question of the judiciary

16 had not been resolved yet, and I also learnt that this matter was being

17 resolved in Banja Luka. On that occasion, I also learnt that there was a

18 Crisis Staff in Banja Luka which was dealing with these matters." That's

19 what you said; right?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Where did this conversation take place between you and Rasula?

22 A. In his office at the municipal assembly.

23 Q. And get as close as you can, sir, to the date for me, will you?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Approximately how long before you were arrest?

25 Because I think that -- that should be the starting point, point of

Page 5963

1 reference.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This last conversation took place, I

3 think, on the 8th of May. That would have been the last one. Around the

4 8th of May, around that date. I remember that they broke into my

5 courthouse and they looked at everything, all the rooms, all the desks, my

6 desk, the desk drawers. I think it was then. I made an offer to

7 Mr. Rasula. I offered to leave that position if I was a hindrance and

8 that he could appoint a different person to this position of the president

9 of court. I offered that to him personally then, on that occasion. And I

10 think that it was in respect of that that he said that to me that, this

11 question had not been resolved yet. Was it then or was it mid-April

12 maybe? Because when I got this letter, the threat, I was talking to him

13 and I had the letter. That's it.


15 Q. So that would put it closer to mid-April then, wouldn't it?

16 A. Perhaps mid-April once, and the other time, as I said, round the

17 8th of May. That's at the office. But we did have some meetings together

18 at the executive council of the municipality.

19 Q. Now, when you said "On that occasion I learned there was a Crisis

20 Staff in Banja Luka which was dealing with these matters," I assume you

21 learned that from your position, that you learned that from your

22 conversation with Rasula. Correct?

23 A. Approximately.

24 Q. Well, did you learn it from someone else other than Rasula on that

25 date?

Page 5964

1 A. I can't remember.

2 Q. What Crisis Staff in Banja Luka was it that you understood was

3 supposed to be dealing with these matters with the courts? Do you know?

4 A. I don't know anything about that Crisis Staff.

5 Q. I'd like you to look at document DB65 B, please.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Ms. Grogan reminds me helpfully that

7 apparently this document has already been exhibited before as DB54. I

8 don't know whether it wants to be exhibited a second time with a DB

9 number. And I think it's also a Prosecution exhibit at the same time.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it's back with a new number, Judge. Maybe we

11 can do something about that at a later stage.

12 Q. In any event, you have before you --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.


15 Q. You have before you, Mr. Witness, the document DB65 B. And this

16 is the Official Gazette of the Banja Luka municipality of 3 June 1992;

17 correct?

18 A. That's what it says here.

19 Q. If you turn just a very short distance, you'll come to a decision

20 numbered 147, probably on about the third page. It's numbered 147. It's

21 a decision on dismissal of a judge.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] On the second page.


24 Q. Do you see it?

25 A. I see it.

Page 5965

1 Q. This is a decision of the War Presidency of the Banja Luka

2 municipality dismissing Stojan Bogosavac as a judge; correct?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. And Stojan Bogosavac is a Serb judge; correct?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. If you look at -- there's a whole series, Judge, you'll notice of

7 decisions here dismissing judges and appointing judges. And if you look

8 at number 149, there's another dismissal of a Serb judge, Snjezana

9 Petkovic; correct?

10 A. That's right. These are judges of the municipality court for

11 misdemeanours in Banja Luka. This has nothing to do with Sanski Most.

12 Q. I totally agree with you. And this was 29th of May, 1992. If you

13 look at number 150, the next decision, you see the dismissal of Gospava

14 Joldzic, another Serb judge; correct?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. If you look at number 156, you see the dismissal of Ljiljana

17 Bosnjak, another Serb judge; correct?

18 A. That's what it says here.

19 Q. All right. I'd now like you to look at DB66 B. Some of the pages

20 are not real clear, but I think the ones that I want to refer you to are.

21 What you should have before you is the Official Gazette of the Serbian

22 people in Bosnia-Herzegovina of 30 June 1992. And I want to first refer

23 you to decision number 218. And you'll find that on the right-hand side

24 of -- I think it's - one, two, three - the fifth page.

25 A. I can see that.

Page 5966

1 Q. This is a decision on the establishment of lower courts in the

2 Autonomous Region of Krajina dated 16 June 1992, signed by Dr. Karadzic.

3 And number 14 on the list is the establishment of the lower court in

4 Sanski Most covering the territory of the municipality of Sanski Most. Do

5 you see that?

6 A. I see that.

7 May I just briefly say something else? I consider this decision

8 to be illegal.

9 Q. Yeah. I knew you would.

10 A. I consider this decision to be illegal.

11 Q. You don't recognise the international law concept of

12 self-determination, I take it.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, move to the next question.


15 Q. If you look at -- starting -- it's a little further into the

16 gazette. It starts with number 232. You'll see a number of decisions

17 electing judges to various courts. And the next decision I want to

18 specifically refer you to is number 252. Let me know when you find 252.

19 A. I've found it.

20 Q. In decision 252, Dr. Karadzic appoints a Bosniak, Smail

21 Salihbegovic, Deputy Prosecutor in Bijeljina; correct?

22 A. That's what it says here.

23 Q. Number 254, Dr. Karadzic elects Muhamed Gluhonjic, a Muslim, to

24 the lower court in Bijeljina; correct?

25 A. That's what it says here.

Page 5967

1 Q. Number 255, Dr. Karadzic elects Alida Madjarac, a Muslim to

2 the lower court in Bijeljina; correct?

3 A. That's what it says here.

4 Q. Number 256, Dr. Karadzic elects Alija Zvizdic, a Muslim to the

5 lower court in Bijeljina; correct?

6 A. That's what it says here.

7 Q. I'd like you now to take a look at DB82 -- DB82 B. I want to

8 refer you to decision number 472 of this document. And this is a decision

9 on the election of the president and the judges of the lower court of

10 Sanski Most, dated 4 August 1992. Have you found that?

11 A. I've found it.

12 Q. And it elects Radovan Stanic as president of the lower court in

13 Sanski Most. And then there's a list of other judges that are also

14 elected to the lower court, isn't there?

15 A. That's what it says here; however, I haven't got anything on

16 Radovan Stanic here on this copy. But I can say that this was an illegal

17 election because according to law, judges were elected by the parliament

18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. Do you think that the declaration of independence by the

20 parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina after the Serb delegates had departed was

21 also illegal?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] If you don't want to --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MS. KORNER: Again, I'm --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Please, Ms. Korner. I mean, I've already intervened

Page 5968

1 myself.

2 If you don't want to answer that question, you're free not to

3 answer it. If you think you can answer it, you can go ahead.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, my objection is not based -- my

5 objection is based on what relevance.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. But I trust Mr. Ackerman so far. He

7 hasn't been much at a tangent. So I think we'll stand a better chance of

8 finishing today with the witness than if we go criss-crossing.

9 MS. KORNER: Well ...

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise it becomes an argument on every question,

11 Ms. Korner. There are many questions that one loses or doesn't see the

12 context of. But it's the entirety of the cross-examination that one has

13 to look at.

14 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


16 Q. In August of 1992, why didn't the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina

17 appoint judges for Sanski Most?

18 A. I don't know about that. At that time I was in this camp.

19 Q. Now, you have seen Official Gazettes from the Municipality of

20 Banja Luka, dealing with the dismissal and appointment of judges. You

21 have seen Official Gazettes from the Serbian Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina dealing with the dismissal and appointment of judges.

23 What you've never seen is any information in Official Gazettes or in

24 orders from the Crisis Staff of ARK dealing with the appointment and

25 dismissal of judges, have you?

Page 5969

1 A. I think I saw the decision of the Crisis Staff and the appointment

2 of Radovan Stanic as president of the court. I saw that decision. And it

3 was read --

4 Q. You've misunderstood me. I was talking about not the Crisis Staff

5 of Sanski Most. I was talking about the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous

6 Region of Krajina. You've never seen a decision from that Crisis Staff

7 regarding the dismissal or appointment of judges, have you?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. And when was it you learned that what Rasula told you about the

10 Crisis Staff in Banja Luka dealing with the appointment and dismissal of

11 judges -- when was it you learned that that was not true, that that was

12 wrong?

13 A. I never found out about that.

14 Q. In your testimony on the 24th of April, page 4947, you testified

15 about the 7th of May of 1992, when five policemen came to you and demanded

16 that you turn over some foreign currency and some gold that was in the

17 custody of the court. You recall that; correct?

18 A. I remember.

19 Q. And that money and gold was in a -- contained in a safe, wasn't

20 it?

21 A. At the bank safe deposit.

22 Q. So it was in a safe deposit box at the bank, or was it a safe that

23 you carried over to the bank and left there?

24 A. That's right. It was in a safe, in a metal box, that is. And

25 then it was taken to the bank vault for guarding, for keeping it. The

Page 5970

1 bank called Privredna Banka from Sarajevo, but I'm talking about the

2 branch office in Sanski Most.

3 Q. Now, under the law, wasn't that money and that gold supposed to be

4 kept in the SDK and not in some safe that you carried over to a bank?

5 Wasn't that what the law required?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Just, it's -- forgive my -- or our ignorance.

7 What's the SDK?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: It's the public accounting service I think is

9 what --



12 Q. Isn't that true? Isn't that what the law required?

13 A. That's not true.

14 Q. During your testimony, you were referred to a couple of

15 transcripts of radio broadcasts. You recall seeing those transcripts

16 during your testimony here in court, don't you?

17 A. I saw the transcripts here.

18 Q. Yes. And what you told the Judges was that you knew those

19 transcripts were accurate and that the tape of those conversations was

20 accurate, because while you were in the jail in Sanski Most, you heard

21 these broadcasts on the radio. That's what you said; right?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. I'm now referring to page 4973, 25 April. "You heard those

24 broadcasts when you were in a cell that was almost armoured. There was a

25 small window which wasn't open which was covered with steel sheeting, so

Page 5971

1 this sheet of tin fully covered the window. And on that sheet, that steel

2 sheet, there were several holes made with nails. The door was metal, made

3 of metal, so there was no air at all. The walls had turned dark from

4 humidity. There was drops of water on the walls, and our bodies were wet

5 with perspiration, and the walls had gone almost black. When I was put

6 into that cell, they were yellowish in colour, and later on they turned

7 almost black. Down the steel sheet that was on the window, the small

8 window, there was also sheeting on the radiator and it was wet. There

9 was water dripping from the body heat that was evaporating. For hours I

10 would stand next to this sheet of steel, next to this little hole, so as

11 to be able to breathe. Otherwise, there was no way we could manage. The

12 same applied to the other people who were detained in the cell."

13 Now, it was in that sealed, armoured, blackened cell that you

14 claim you heard the radio; correct?

15 A. That's right. And in any case, during the day, in the morning and

16 in the evening, they would let us out to go out in front of the prison, to

17 get food. And of course we would always listen to the radio. And the

18 radio was probably based somewhere in the building of the command, and it

19 was possible to heard music being played and these announcements. We

20 could all hear it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead. Mr. Ackerman.


25 Q. How long was it you were taken out to get food? For how long a

Page 5972

1 period of time? Was it -- were you out for like, an hour, hour and a

2 half, what?

3 A. We were never out for an hour. Usually it was five, ten, or 15

4 minutes. It depended on the people who were -- the guards. It depended

5 on who the guards were.

6 Q. Yeah. Usually it was about five minutes, wasn't it?

7 A. It was more than five minutes. Sometimes it was five minutes, and

8 sometimes perhaps even twenty minutes.

9 Q. On 25 April, 2002, page 4988 and the successive -- the next page

10 is where you testified about the burning of Mahala. Now, on page 4988,

11 you said that you had heard the sounds in the night. And then, "On the

12 27th of May in the afternoon, they came, unlocked the door, forced us out

13 of the cell, and let us out to watch Mahala burning, to watch Mahala on

14 fire." And you say that was the afternoon of 27 May; right?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. On the very next page, you say this: "At 5.00 in the morning on

17 the 27th of May, a policeman came who unlocked the door, and he was armed

18 and he said that night they'd attack Mahala, and that's when I found

19 out." Now, those things are different. In one case you found out in the

20 afternoon, and in another case you found out at 5.00 in the morning.

21 Which is it?

22 A. I don't know what the translation was, but I know what I said.

23 After the shelling that night, at 5.00 in the morning Cetkovic, a

24 police man came, called Dzo Banana, and he said angrily. He said that

25 they had attacked Mahala, that the Green Berets were there and so on. So

Page 5973

1 after he had stayed there for a while, the police and the army came later

2 on and they let us out. That's what I said.

3 Q. And this policeman who spoke with you told you, as you just said,

4 that there were still about 400 Green Berets left in Mahala who hadn't

5 surrendered yet; correct?

6 A. He said, "There are others whom we haven't managed to control.

7 There are a thousand dead, and there are about 400 Green Berets. And we

8 are going to capture them and kill them."

9 Q. Well, the testimony you gave at line 16 on the 25th of April, page

10 4989, was this, that he had said to you "There were 400 Green Berets left

11 who hadn't surrendered yet." Do you stand by that?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. You then said just a couple of lines later: "I knew that there

14 had been no resistance whatsoever in Mahala." Now, you weren't in Mahala

15 that night -- that previous night, were you?

16 A. No, I wasn't.

17 Q. You were in jail.

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. And your house was in Mahala.

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And isn't it the case that you have a special reason to tell this

22 Trial Chamber that there was no resistance in Mahala?

23 A. There was no resistance in Mahala.

24 Q. Isn't it true that you have a special reason to tell the Trial

25 Chamber that?

Page 5974

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Just say yes or no.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know.


4 Q. I have a very simple question, and it's just something that maybe

5 you can help me understand. In your testimony about Manjaca -- and I'm

6 now going to page 5090 on 26 April -- you were telling the Trial Chamber

7 about that night when you contend that Omer Filipovic and Esad Bender were

8 killed. That's what I want to direct your attention to.

9 At line 18 on page 5090, you told the Judges: "Other people were

10 called out too that night, including myself. However, I didn't go out,

11 nor did some others go out." Was it the case that you could choose

12 whether you wanted to go out whether you were called out or not?

13 A. In such moments -- well, I was so afraid, I wasn't even thinking.

14 The doctor who was lying down next to me, he -- he held onto me and he

15 said, "Don't go out. They'll kill you." And I don't know how I remained

16 there. I didn't go out.

17 Q. But you said others didn't go out either; correct?

18 A. Certain individuals. One or two persons whom I know.

19 Q. You told us that you heard people being beaten with -- these are

20 your words -- wooden objects. You could tell that just by listening?

21 A. The blows were very heavy, very -- I heard strong blows. It's as

22 if you were beating a carpet and you could hear each such blow.

23 Q. My question was could you tell by listening -- just by listening

24 that they were being beaten with wooden objects?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 5975

1 Q. You told us that you heard policemen running around with buckets

2 of water and pouring it on people. That's what you said; right?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. And you could tell they were policemen and you could tell they

5 were buckets of water and you could tell they were pouring it on people

6 just by listening?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. And I thought you told us at one point that the only place to get

9 water was to go to a lake nearby and scoop it up out of the lake. Is it

10 your contention that the policemen were running back and forth to this

11 lake to get buckets of water?

12 A. That's not the way I meant it. That's not the way I meant it. I

13 didn't mean they were running all the way to the lake.

14 Q. You later heard from Dr. Derviskadic, who went out later that

15 night and then came back and reported to you about things he had learned

16 and seen, didn't he?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And a great deal about what you believe you know about Manjaca was

19 based upon what you were told by other people, including Dr. Derviskadic.

20 A. That's not correct.

21 Q. Well, he told you that three people were dead and one of those

22 people was Senad -- is it Supuk?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And that wasn't true, was it? Supuk was not dead.

25 A. As I explained, Supuk remained alive. He fell into a garbage

Page 5976

1 pit.

2 Q. At page 5115, 26 April, you were asked by the Prosecutor: "Do you

3 know if anybody did get released as a direct result of any intervention by

4 any high-ranking politician or military man or any sort of eminent

5 figure?" Your answer was that you had heard that some individuals had

6 been released, and then you went on to describe some of that.

7 I'd like you to look, sir, at P330.

8 A. I'm sorry. In part of the statement -- I don't know whether it's

9 here -- but I said that I had seen Colonel Basara Branko. He came in his

10 own -- he came and in his own car he took Nijaz Halilovic away from Sanski

11 Most. I found this out -- I found out that he had taken him out.

12 Q. Sir. You're absolutely right. I didn't read the whole paragraph;

13 because I only want to refer to -- when you said you heard that some

14 individuals had been released. And now I want you to look at document

15 P330, and I think you have it in front of you.

16 And sir, this is a document dated 1 October 1992. It appears to

17 be signed by Vojo Kupresanin. And it has a list of 13 people. And

18 Kupresanin is requesting that those people be released by means of a

19 pardon because it's been established that they did not participate in the

20 insurrection against Republika Srpska; correct?

21 A. I can see this written document here.

22 Q. Do you know any of these people, any of these people listed in 1

23 through 13?

24 A. Biscevic Faik, under number 4. He didn't leave Manjaca right up

25 until the 14th of November, as far as I know. He was then released with

Page 5977

1 the help of the UNHCR and the International Red Cross. And I'm looking at

2 the other names here. I don't know the other people. I can't remember.

3 I know that Faik Biscevic is from Sanski Most. Perhaps it's an error.

4 Perhaps it's his son. But I think that he was released in Banja Luka.

5 But two of Biscevic Faik's sons were killed.

6 Q. Those numbers that appear after the names, do you know what those

7 signify?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. So as far as you know, Mr. Kupresanin was not successful in

10 getting these people released in October when he tried to do that.

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. I'd like you to look at now DB67 B. And this, sir, is another

13 document that appears to be signed by Vojo Kupresanin. In this document,

14 he's requesting that a person named Elvir Kesedzic be pardoned and

15 released from Manjaca; correct?

16 A. I don't know anything about this, really.

17 Q. You don't know this person Elvir Kesedzic?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. And you don't know Patriarch Pavle?

20 A. I know him. In fact, I know him from the media. I never met him

21 personally.

22 Q. It appears from this document, does it not, that it was Patriarch

23 Pavle who was trying to get Mr. Kesedzic released?

24 A. I don't know about that.

25 Q. All right. I want to move to --

Page 5978

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Maybe this would be a good time to break. I'm

2 going to a different subject, Judge.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have -- is it okay if we have -- we restrict

4 the break to 20 minutes?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll have a break, resuming at 20 minutes

9 from now, anyway. That will be 10.47 -- 48. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] That's a record. 10.27

13 to 10.47, 20 minutes.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Perfect. Absolutely perfect.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes. The witness --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Wait until -- okay. You can

18 proceed now.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I'd like the witness to have Exhibits P630 and P776

20 together, please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: 630 and ...?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: 776. You've seen them both, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's a question of having to find two

24 bundles.


Page 5979

1 Q. Sir, I'd like you to look first at P776. And you were shown this

2 the other day. And this is an order apparently from the Crisis Staff of

3 the Sanski Most municipality -- Serbian municipality. It orders Judge

4 Radovan Stanic of the lower court to carry out necessary preparations for

5 the establishment of a wartime court in accordance with the state of war

6 declared in the Autonomous Region of Krajina. You see that, don't you?

7 A. I can see that.

8 Q. If you look at P630 now. On the same date, there appears to be a

9 conclusion of the Crisis Staff as opposed to an order basically saying the

10 same thing; they'll be in charge of preparing and setting up a war court

11 in accordance with the state of war declared in the Autonomous Region of

12 Krajina; correct?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Do you have any evidence that such a court, a war court, wartime

15 court, was ever created in Sanski Most? Do you have any reason to believe

16 that there actually was such a court created?

17 A. Mr. Radovan Stanic as president of the court came to Manjaca. He

18 interrogated inmates in jails as well as soon as they were detained. I

19 don't know -- actually, I don't have any other evidence, because I don't

20 know about this.

21 Q. Well, when you did your searches for documents when you came back,

22 you didn't find any court documents that would indicate that a court ever

23 functioned in Sanski Most during that three years that was called a war

24 court, did you?

25 A. Not for Sanski Most that there was a military court there. There

Page 5980

1 was no documents to that effect. But the military court was in Banja

2 Luka.

3 Q. I'm talking about a war time court, which these documents talk of

4 a war court, that these documents talk about setting up. You never found

5 any documents indicating that a war court actually operated in Sanski

6 Most, did you?

7 A. Well, you can put it that way, as far as the military court is

8 concerned.

9 Q. In fact, you learned this morning that on 16 June, Dr. Karadzic

10 created a lower court system for Sanski Most, that order that you

11 characterised as an illegal order; right? You saw that just this

12 morning.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know that no state of war was declared in the Autonomous

15 Region of Krajina in April or May of 1992?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Could you look please at document -- and be provided with document

18 P153. And we'll also need P371 at the same time. And keep those other

19 documents that you have there in front of you.

20 If you look at P153 --

21 A. I do apologise. Excuse me. Just a minute. I've just remembered

22 something in connection with the military court in Sanski Most. Some

23 people from Sanski Most who were there and who were at Manjaca, that is,

24 ended up at the military court in Batkovic -- or rather, when they went to

25 Batkovic, there are even judgements from the military court. And they are

Page 5981

1 civilians from Sanski Most. I've just remembered that now.

2 Q. And that was a court operated under the authority of the -- of the

3 army rather than a civilian court; correct?

4 A. We are talking about a military court here. You asked me about a

5 military court. You didn't ask me about a civilian court.

6 Q. No. I really didn't. I asked you about a war court. I mean,

7 these documents say "war court." I don't even know what a war court is,

8 but that's what they say. I didn't ask you about any military courts.

9 I want you to look at P153. Do you have that? It's a decision

10 from the Ministry of --

11 A. I beg your pardon?

12 Q. P153, a decision from the Ministry of National Defence in

13 Sarajevo, dated 16 April, 1992. Do you see that?

14 A. It's not that document, no.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think he has the right document, Your

16 Honour.

17 Would you give him my copy of what I think P153 is. It apparently

18 isn't --

19 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Can we all see what you

20 think it is, by putting it on the ELMO.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] A copy of the decision of

22 the 15th April --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: It's a 16th April decision.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. 16th April is when it's communicated. But it

Page 5982

1 seems the decision was taken the day before, on the 15th April.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I just don't know if we're looking at the same

3 thing.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. This is why I'm asking you. My

5 document Exhibit P153 has a translation numbered 01107402.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Same thing.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So we must be talking about the same thing.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: It's a decision --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But it starts at the decision on 15th April --

10 MR. ACKERMAN: You're right. It does.

11 Q. The paragraph I want to draw your attention to is the second

12 decision, which says: "A state of an imminent threat of war is hereby

13 declared." And number two: "General public mobilisation of the TO in the

14 entire territory of SRBiH is hereby ordered." Do you see that?

15 A. I'm sorry. I can't say that. Is it this decision? It doesn't

16 say that here. Perhaps it's a different document.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: What -- judge, what number do you have at the top of

18 that document? Is it 00574584?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's the same document. What you are being

21 referred to is the second page, second paragraph, which starts [B/C/S

22 spoken]. Is that correct, Mr. Ackerman?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, he's got it now, so I'm not sure. I can't

24 say my own B/C/S version. It's the second decision, it starts with number

25 1.

Page 5983

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. The third one, sorry. [B/C/S

2 spoken].

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says, number 2: "A decision on

4 other components."


6 Q. No. It's the next -- it's the next paragraph, number 1 and 2 that

7 I'm concerned about.

8 A. Oh. Oh, that's page 2. That's what it says in the explication.

9 "In terms of proclaiming an immediate threat of war --"

10 Q. "An imminent threat of war and a general public mobilisation,"

11 correct? And this is signed by someone who is designated as the national

12 defence minister, Bogdan Subotic; correct?

13 A. Yes, the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. Yes. Now, if you look at the next document.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is which?


17 Q. Which is P371. This document is a document dated 4 May 1992.

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. And this document comes from the Autonomous Region of Bosanska

20 Krajina, regional Secretariat for National Defence.

21 A. That's right. That is where general mobilisation is ordered,

22 throughout the territory of Krajina.

23 Q. Yes. But nowhere in there does it say a state of war is declared,

24 does it?

25 A. In this document? I don't see it says that.

Page 5984

1 Q. All right. Could you --

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this is a document I referred to when

3 I was talking about translations the other day as a document that had not

4 been completely and fully translated. And what is missing from the

5 English translation is a translation of the -- of the stamp that you see

6 at the --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Yes.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: And with your indulgence, I would ask the witness

9 to simply tell us what that stamp says if he can.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Ackerman.

11 And Ms. Korner, I'll just draw your attention to --

12 MS. KORNER: Oh, I'm awfully sorry, I mean, I know this is all

13 over the place. But resubmitting all these documents for retranslation is

14 not going to work. They'll just go. The Translation Unit is up to its

15 eyes in it. I will just have to hope that because it's been translated by

16 witnesses, that will do.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Judge, can you enlighten us on that

18 stamp.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a stamp -- the old stamp of

20 the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It says that the staff of

21 the Territorial Defence staff of Banja Luka. And also it has the coat of

22 arms of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Socialist

23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes. So this is not a stamp of the

24 Autonomous Region.


Page 5985

1 Q. It's actually a stamp of the Territorial Defence of the

2 Municipality of Banja Luka, isn't it?

3 A. I don't know about that.

4 Q. Well, it's a Territorial Defence stamp. You told us that.

5 MS. KORNER: Of Banja Luka, he said.


7 Q. It says: "Opstina Banja Luka" on it, doesn't it?

8 A. It says the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina, the regional

9 Secretariat for National Defence, that's what it says in the letterhead.

10 So this is not a document of the Municipality of Banja Luka.

11 Q. No. I'm talking about the stamp, sir. I'm only asking you to

12 tell what the stamp says, not what the document says. We know that.

13 A. I think I said that. "The staff of the Territorial Defence, Banja

14 Luka."

15 Q. Right.

16 A. "Stamp number 1." But that's the old stamp. I emphasise that,

17 the old stamp of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. That's all I was interesting in having you do was tell us what

19 that stamp said. And you've done that, and I appreciate it.

20 Now, when -- what Milorad Sajic is doing by signing this decision

21 is simply carrying out the order contained in the document from the

22 Ministry of National Defence in Sarajevo ordering general public

23 mobilisation; isn't that true? This is not an independent decision but

24 just a transmission of the decision from the Ministry of National Defence

25 in Sarajevo.

Page 5986

1 A. I'm sorry. Which ministry -- in which ministry are you referring

2 to?

3 Q. Well, we started with document P153. I've gotten you confused and

4 maybe everyone else in this room. We started with P153, which was an

5 order of general public mobilisation of 16 April from the Ministry of

6 National Defence in Sarajevo.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if -- to save time, if the point is that

8 nowhere in these documents is there to say "we declare war," I'll take

9 that. I'll accept that. Nowhere in these documents is there an actual

10 declaration of war, notwithstanding reference to wartime staff and wartime

11 conditions.


13 Q. And the second point being that the 4 May --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, did you take that point?


16 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you still want to go ahead with the

17 question?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: There's a second point, Your Honour.


20 MR. ACKERMAN: And that is that the 4 May decision is simply an

21 implementation of the 16th April decision, just implementing in the

22 Autonomous Region what was ordered by the Ministry of National Defence.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you need the witness to confirm that?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: No. I don't think I do.

25 Q. All right. You can return all of those documents now, sir. And

Page 5987

1 I'd like you to be shown P785.

2 Sir, P785 is a document which you told us on 14 May at page 5551

3 of the transcript that it was signed by you as investigating judge;

4 correct?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And that's your signature that appears there; correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And what you see then on the next page is a list of 20 names.

9 Yes?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Now, I'd like you now to look at Exhibit DB79 -- DB79 B. And that

12 seems to be the same list of names, does it not?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Except on 79 B there's a handwritten note up in the upper

15 right-hand corner that I presume was written by you. Is that correct?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. And signed by you?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. The next document I want to refer you to is P --

20 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for Ms. Korner.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just showing him and that's it -- what

24 does the note say, please?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that's a pertinent question, even

Page 5988

1 though it is translated in the English version not completely, because

2 there is something illegible.

3 Perhaps, Mr. Ackerman you could ask the witness --

4 MR. ACKERMAN: [Microphone not activated] Well, it seems to me --

5 A. Microphone --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: It seems to me that I have limited time here and

9 that might be appropriate redirect but I don't think it's my job to ask

10 Ms. Korner's questions for her unless the Court orders me to, and then I

11 will.

12 MS. KORNER: No. Can I simply ask Your Honour where this

13 version of this document comes from? I'd be grateful to be given that

14 information, and I'll deal with it on redirect if Mr. Ackerman wants.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not going to ask questions, myself, Ms. Korner.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: It comes from your office, Ms. Korner. You'll see

17 the number down at the bottom 00511388 DOC/DSL. That's a Prosecutor's

18 office designation.

19 MS. KORNER: All right. I'm sorry. I'm not with you.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: If you look at the bottom of the English version of

21 the document that has the translation of the handwritten, you will see

22 00511388 DOC/DSL. That is a Prosecutor's office designation. So the

23 document comes from you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And on the B/C/S version, there is the same

25 number, just beneath the illegible stamp and the witness's signature. So

Page 5989

1 it presumably comes from you, disclosed number 68, I would assume -- or

2 whichever, 66 or 68.

3 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: P619 is where I want to go next, Your Honour. And

5 the next document I'll want is P626 and then P164, just so the registrar

6 can know where we're going.

7 Q. You should have before you P619, sir. And I want to refer you

8 very quickly to paragraph 3, which reads: "Nedeljko Rasula and Nedjo

9 Anicic are hereby [Realtime transcript read in error "authorised"]

10 instructed to visit the leadership of the AR Autonomous Region of Krajina

11 and explain in detail the situation in Sanski Most and try to obtain

12 suggestions and guidelines for further action."

13 A. Yes, I've seen that.

14 Q. The transcript says that they're authorised to visit the -- the

15 document actually says they're instructed to visit, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: So the transcript should reflect the language of

18 the document is "instructed to visit."

19 Q. Two questions with regard to that, sir: You don't know, do you,

20 whether or not that visit ever occurred?

21 A. I don't know.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: He was asked that question, and he replied to it

23 before, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't recall that, Your Honour.

25 Q. The other question, sir, is: If there was no Crisis Staff of the

Page 5990

1 Autonomous Region of Krajina on 21 April, 1992, then this instruction

2 would not have instructed them to visit any members of the Crisis Staff,

3 would it?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. Look at 626, please, will you. And this is a document from the

6 Crisis Staff of Sanski Most dated 28 April 1992 which calls for the

7 surrender of all illegally held weapons, doesn't it?

8 A. These are conclusions of the meeting of the Crisis Staff of the

9 Serb Municipality of Sanski Most, held on the 28th of April, 1992.

10 Q. And it orders -- requires the surrender of all illegally held

11 weapons; right?

12 A. It says: "Any weapon -- that all citizens who possess any kind of

13 weapon shall hand it to the public security station. The closest unit of

14 the Yugoslav People's Army or the staff of the Territorial Defence."

15 Q. Well, but then it goes on to exempt those for which person has a

16 licence or if they're members of Territorial Defence or police or JNA,

17 doesn't it?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, I have no intention of twisting my neck. Put

19 it straight. It was horizontal. That's perfect.

20 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.


22 Q. I think I asked the question, but it -- the question was: "It

23 exempts people who have licences, members of Territorial Defence

24 formations, active and reserve police, and JNA? So it's dealing with

25 illegally held weapons; correct?

Page 5991

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, it's not the document that I think he's being

2 questioned on.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: No. It's not the document, 626 is the one he's

4 being asked about, of 28 April.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: But don't you have the English version --


7 JUDGE AGIUS: I see, I see. Okay.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the witness has answered the question

9 yes, so I think we can move forward.

10 Q. Now, if there was no Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region until 5

11 May of 1992, this conclusion about the surrendering of illegally held

12 weapons couldn't have been as a result of any action of the ARK Crisis

13 Staff, could it?

14 A. The Crisis Staff took such a decision and published it, but of the

15 radio they broadcast an announcement saying that all legally possessed and

16 illegally possessed weapons should be surrendered. I know this very well.

17 Q. You've misunderstood my question, sir, and I'm sorry. It's

18 probably my fault?

19 MS. KORNER: It is actually a comment.


21 Q. You've misunderstood my comment, sir. My comment --

22 A. I apologise.

23 Q. If there was no ARK Crisis Staff on 28 April -- was it 28 April --

24 when this document was generated, it couldn't have resulted from an order

25 of the ARK Crisis Staff, could it? It probably doesn't even need to be

Page 5992

1 asked. I'll just withdraw it.

2 Look at P164, please.

3 A. I don't know about that. I really don't.

4 Q. Look at P164 now, will you please. It should be right there.

5 Have you found it?

6 You talked the other day about paragraph 1 of that document --

7 A. Yes, I have.

8 Q. Okay. The other day you talked about paragraph 1 of that document

9 and explained that that paragraph dealt with the appointment -- the

10 replacement of personnel in the court system; in other words, the

11 dismissal of Muslim personnel and their replacement by Serbian personnel.

12 Correct?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. And that one is dated 29 April 1992, isn't it?

15 A. That's right.

16 [Defence counsel confer]


18 Q. The next one that I want you to look at is 635. And I want to

19 refer you to paragraph 7, which reads: "At the request of the Regional

20 Crisis Staff, the Crisis Staff of the Sanski Most Serbian municipality

21 appointed Vlado Vrkes deputy president of the Crisis Staff of the

22 Sanski Most Serbian municipality." Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, I do. I can see it.

24 Q. Did you find this document?

25 A. I think so.

Page 5993

1 Q. And with it did you see a document from the Regional Crisis Staff

2 that this document refers to saying, "please appoint Vlado Vrkes deputy

3 president of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff"?

4 A. As far as I can remember, no, I didn't see such a document.

5 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I can deal with it in

6 re-examination, but it seems to me sensible if Mr. Ackerman wants to

7 pursue this if Your Honours take P227 and look at the decision of the 18th

8 of May of the ARK Crisis Staff. It's in the gazettes.


10 Q. The next document I want to refer you to, sir, is P218.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: It should be in the same binder.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] You're coming up with --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You're coming up with a lot of documents you did not

15 indicate to us. And we have a list from you which dates from yesterday

16 with one, two, three, plus, plus, plus -- and then documents from OTP

17 Sanski Most binders which leaves us guessing, you know.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that's almost exactly what the Prosecution

19 told you, that they'd be referring to documents from those two binders.

20 They didn't give you all the numbers.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: They gave you all the numbers basically.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: No, they didn't. They said we'll be referring to

23 documents from these two binders.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: They did say that as well. But the thing is that

25 some of these documents obviously we don't have available right now.

Page 5994

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I told you, Your Honour, I'd be referring to

2 documents from the two Sanski Most binders.

3 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

4 MR. ACKERMAN: And that's what I'm doing.

5 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 218.

7 MS. KORNER: In the binder, where is 218? What divider.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: 218 is --

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I don't have dividers. You invented those

10 dividers. You didn't tell me where your dividers were. It comes after

11 648.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We've solved that. It's on the ELMO.


14 Q. Sir, do you have -- do you have 218, a Crisis Staff conclusion of

15 30 May 1992?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 Q. There is a circled "2" in a paragraph that begins "A long-term

18 solution." Can you find that?

19 A. Of the area, not the region. That's an area.

20 Q. I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm trying to direct

21 your attention to a circled number "2," which you will find on the second

22 page of the document, second paragraph. Do you find that?

23 A. I've found it.

24 Q. And first -- okay.

25 The last sentence of that paragraph says: "Also make contact with

Page 5995

1 the leadership of the Autonomous Region of Krajina regarding

2 implementation of the idea on resettlement of the population." You don't

3 know whether that contact was ever made, do you?

4 A. I know that the population from Mahala was expelled. They were

5 forcibly expelled. And about the connection between the Crisis Staff --

6 or the municipality of Sanski Most and the Autonomous Region of Krajina, I

7 didn't have the opportunity to --

8 Q. Yes. So the answer is you don't know?

9 A. To find out about this.

10 Q. So answer is you don't know; correct?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. Do you know that the officials, Rasula, Vrkes, those people in

13 Sanski Most were not happy with the functioning of the ARK Crisis Staff

14 and its leadership? Did you know that?

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 Q. Would you look at P690, please. And that should be in volume 2, I

17 think.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I should point out I did -- we did look

19 at this when I went through it with him in chief, this particular

20 document. We read that particular paragraph. So I'm not sure there's a

21 necessity for the judge to read that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see what the question is going to be, if there

23 is a question.


25 Q. Sir, I'd like you to look at paragraph 2(D). 2(D) says that

Page 5996

1 "Every municipality on the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

2 shall appoint one representative for issues connected to removal and

3 exchange of population and prisoners and report something by fax to Vojo

4 Kupresanin"; correct?

5 A. Just a minute you said 2(D). And it says something else here. I

6 don't know if it has been correctly translated.

7 Q. I don't either. It's paragraph 2. And then under that,

8 paragraph -- yeah, it hasn't been. Looks like the paragraphs go A, B, V,

9 G.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's G, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah. It's G in the --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's G --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: In the --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In the B/C/S version, the paragraph that starts with

15 [B/C/S spoken].

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It says that, "Every

17 municipality on the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina shall

18 appoint one representative."


20 Q. And it appears that Vojo Kupresanin was designated as the person

21 to coordinate this business of exchange of population; correct?

22 A. I don't know about that here, because it says, "Sent to Vojo

23 Kupresanin by telefax." I don't know whether he was the person

24 responsible.

25 Q. Okay. If you look on page 2 -- I don't know if -- the English

Page 5997

1 version is paragraph I, but I don't think it's paragraph I in the ...

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have a paragraph I on page 2, Mr. Ackerman.

3 Page 2, number 5 ends with paragraph F, the English version. It's

4 paragraph 2 -- oh, I see what you mean. I see what you mean.

5 Judge, turn over the page, the second page of that document, the

6 very first paragraph at the top with the letter F -- or what looks like a

7 letter F, [B/C/S spoken].

8 That's the one, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, that's it?

10 A. Yes, I can see it. I can see it.

11 Q. It says. "The Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

12 are criticised for reaching decisions at the level of Banja Luka

13 municipality that were important for the entire territory of the

14 Autonomous Region of Krajina"; correct?

15 A. That's what it says.

16 Q. I had asked you a moment ago, you'll recall, if you knew that the

17 officials in Sanski Most were not happy with the ARK Crisis Staff and its

18 leadership, and that was one of the paragraphs I wanted to point you to in

19 that regard.

20 I'd like you also to look at -- and let me ask you first: Do you

21 know anything about an inter-municipal agreement of the Sanko Unska

22 [phoen] area of 14 June 1992?

23 A. I can't remember that.

24 Q. I'd like you to take a look, please, at P247.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

Page 5998

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Sorry?

3 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Which document?


5 MR. ACKERMAN: It's not in the binder.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It wouldn't be in the binder.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: It's on the list though -- or it better be.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see.


10 Q. Do you have P247, sir?

11 A. I can see the Prosecutor's number, 392.

12 Q. No -- well, maybe. Yes, that's the right one.

13 This appears to have been a meeting held at Korcanica on 14 June

14 1992, with representatives from Srpska Krupa, Bosanski Petrovac, Bosanski

15 Novi, Bosanska Dubica, Prijedor, and Sanski Most. If you look under a

16 number -- I don't know if it has this number even. No, it doesn't.

17 If you look on page 2, number 3(A) --

18 A. I haven't got page 2. There is no page 2.

19 Q. Well, that's real helpful. I will give you my copy of this

20 document.

21 Now, you'll find a page 2 and you'll find a paragraph 3, "Joint

22 positions." And under that, A: "We think that the work" --

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. "We think that the work of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous

25 Region of Krajina under wartime circumstances should be much more serious

Page 5999

1 and that its politicians and experts should pay more attention to the

2 problems in all constituent municipalities of the Autonomous Region of

3 Krajina."

4 And then if you look at B: "Accordingly, we propose that Vojo

5 Kupresanin be appointed president of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous

6 Region of Krajina." And then it goes on and says why.

7 And if you look at paragraph E, then, just a little further down:

8 "We think that the work of the Crisis Staff has been unsatisfactory and

9 that it has been serving the local interests of Banja Luka."

10 And then the next page, paragraph F, the second paragraph under

11 F: "Accordingly, personnel changes should be made in the Crisis Staff of

12 the Autonomous Region of Krajina and with a view to urgently breaking with

13 individuals who have decided to obstruct the work of the Serbian

14 Democratic Party in the Autonomous Region of Krajina and to question the

15 lofty goals which have galvanised the Serbian people."

16 Now, that you have seen the document and become aware of its

17 contents, do you have any memory of learning anything about this sort of

18 break-away group that was trying to get Mr. Brdjanin replaced with

19 Mr. Kupresanin?

20 A. At the time, I was in the Manjaca camp and we didn't have any

21 information. We were totally isolated. We didn't receive any

22 information.

23 Q. I was really referring more to the investigation work that you've

24 done after you've gone back, if you became aware of it in the course of

25 those investigations. I know where you were at the time.

Page 6000

1 A. I really can't remember.

2 Q. All right. Now, the next document I want you to look at is P709.

3 We're back in binder 2. And this, sir, is a document again from Sanski

4 Most, the executive committee of the municipal assembly, signed Mladen

5 Lukic, 30 July 1992. Paragraph 6: "That the government of the Autonomous

6 Region of Krajina be urgently requested to approve the establishment of

7 prisons." In your investigations did you find --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In your investigations, did you find any document from the

10 Autonomous Region of Krajina approving the establishment of prisons?

11 A. I can't remember all the documents now because there was

12 correspondence between the chief of the CSB, Zupljanin, and the chief of

13 the public security station in Sanski Most, Vrucinic Mirko. But I can't

14 remember this exactly now -- I can't remember all the documents.

15 Q. So you don't recall seeing a document along the lines of what this

16 document says, a document approving the establishment of prisons, do you?

17 A. No, I can't remember that.

18 Q. In fact, you don't know whether this request was even ever

19 forwarded to the government of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, do you?

20 A. I'm not sure that I don't know, since a copy was made -- since

21 there was correspondence. But I don't remember.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know if the interpretation has been right.

23 Could you repeat slowly what you have said, because the way it's

24 been interpreted to me doesn't really make much sense. You said "I am not

25 sure --" can you carry on from there.

Page 6001

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether there was

2 correspondence between the executive community of -- the executive

3 committee and the Autonomous Region of Krajina, because I haven't seen

4 these documents for a long time and they were -- well, that's why I say

5 I'm not sure. I can't remember.


7 Q. All right, sir. We're going to go back into binder 1 again now

8 and talk about a different subject. You recall that earlier today we

9 revisited some of your testimony about the policeman coming to the jail in

10 Sanski Most, and telling you that there were still 400 Green Berets in

11 Mahala that hadn't given up yet and so the battle was still going on. You

12 recall that, don't you?

13 A. I remember that.

14 Q. I want you to look now at P638. You've seen it before. This is a

15 document from the Territorial Defence, Nedeljko Anicic, regarding this

16 armament operations in Sanski Most.

17 A. I can see it.

18 Q. Yes. And in the first paragraph, it speaks of the Green Berets,

19 which were inserted into the Sanski Most area, the hostile villages and

20 towns in Sanski Most. They've formed eight detachments, five independent

21 companies, and a number of independent platoons in Mahala. Correct?

22 A. What it says here is not correct.

23 Q. That's what it says. I'm just asking you if that's what it says.

24 A. Yes, that's what it says.

25 Q. If you look over to paragraph 6 -- well, just above paragraph 5,

Page 6002

1 it says that an attack will begin at 0500 on 26 May, doesn't it?

2 A. That's what it says.

3 Q. And then I believe paragraph 6 deals with the Mahala area -- or

4 does it?

5 A. Mahala isn't mentioned here. These are other parts of the town,

6 other neighbourhoods.

7 Q. It's in paragraph 9 where they talk about neutralising the

8 remaining fire targets and searching the Mahala sector. I just had the

9 wrong paragraph. That's what it says; correct?

10 A. That's what it says.

11 Q. If you look at -- now at document P642. This again is a document

12 you have seen before. It's dated 27 May 1992 from the 1st Krajina Corps

13 command. It's a regular combat report.

14 Right before numbered paragraph 2, it says: "The situation in

15 Sanski Most is becoming increasingly complicated. At about 1500 hours in

16 the area of Sanski Most, the Green Berets attacked a convoy of buses

17 transporting conscripts, killing two conscripts and lightly or seriously

18 wounding roughly 20 others. The command of the 30th Partisan Division was

19 ordered to send in a combat group to rescue the convoy."

20 And you haven't found this yet, have you? 642.

21 A. Sorry. The first page is missing here, in B/C/S, that is.

22 Q. Well, here it is.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] It's a three-page

24 document, Judge.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: He's got the first page now. And that's the only

Page 6003

1 part I'm referring to.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And the page number is 00861461.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it. I have it.


5 Q. I'm referring to that part that talks about an attack by the Green

6 Berets on a convoy of buses transporting conscripts. And you saw that the

7 other day.

8 A. I can see it.

9 Q. Okay. And I think you told us the other day that you might have

10 heard about that incident. Am I right?

11 A. In Sanski Most, no, I haven't heard about that.

12 Q. Okay. If I can have my copy back and we can look now at P680?

13 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

14 MR. ACKERMAN: This is from the --

15 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry. We haven't got it. This is volume 2.

17 Q. And sir, you saw this document too the other day. It talks about

18 a battle that went on at Vrhpolje, where it says there was a force of 800

19 men which you said you thought was about 300. What I'd like you to do is

20 look at the next page. And that next page shows weapons that were

21 confiscated, were handed over. And I just want to bring your attention to

22 the fact that there seems to have been 30 submachine-guns, 227 automatic

23 rifles, 155 semi-automatic rifles, 11 light machine-guns, 1 MTV - I don't

24 know what that is. Do you know what an MTV is?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 6004

1 Q. Four hand grenades, 5 zoljas, which are described as hand-held

2 rocket launchers, 83 kilos of explosives, 218 pistols, eight sniper

3 rifles, and 40 M-48 rifles. That's what that shows, isn't it?

4 A. That's what it says in the document, but I don't know a thing

5 about any of this.

6 Q. If you look at -- then at P699.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm now going to ask. Is there a

8 question going to be put in any of this? Because so far not one question

9 has actually been put about this.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But on the other hand, if he answers "I don't know

11 anything about that," it is obvious that Mr. Ackerman can't then put a

12 question.

13 MS. KORNER: There hasn't been a question so far. He hasn't been

14 asked whether he know -- it's just been -- we've just been going through

15 it.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But it is obvious that he's asking the

17 witness whether he knows anything about it to start with.

18 MS. KORNER: So --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Then it's -- so it's up to him, because if the

20 answer is yes, the reaction may be one way. If the answer is no, it could

21 be another. I mean, many first questions that are -- than not followed by

22 other questions.

23 Go ahead, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Document P699 --

Page 6005

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All I know is that I have done my exercise for the

2 day picking up these binders up and down. 699.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: It might have been helpful for me just to put them

4 all in one binder for Your Honours. Maybe I'll do that next time.

5 Q. If you look at -- this is from the Sanski Most public security

6 station.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: 699. Yes. Yes.


9 Q. And right on the first page, it talks about some weapons that

10 were -- it's dated 10 July. It talks about weapons that were returned.

11 And it's a fairly long list of weapons, including explosives, ammunition,

12 semi-automatic rifles, automatic rifles, carbines, light rifles; correct?

13 A. That's what it says here, but generally speaking -- I would like

14 to add something -- that I think that this information is absolutely not

15 correct. That's what I think in terms of the previous document too.

16 Q. Well, and there's a reason that you think that, which we'll talk

17 about here in a moment, sir. And all I'm asking you now if you look now

18 at the last page of that document, there is a list of the total number of

19 weapons that were gathered in one way or another. It says "Total";

20 correct? And it says, 3.140 kilos of explosives, 5.000 rounds of

21 ammunition, 278 automatic rifles, 161 semi-automatic rifles, 385 pistols.

22 That's part of the list; right?

23 A. That's what it says in the list, but this is certainly not true.

24 Q. I know that's your position, sir. You've made it clear many

25 times.

Page 6006

1 Now, I'm going to a different subject now. I want you to again be

2 provided with some documents that you saw the other day. And we'll start

3 with DB74.1. And look at the very last page, sir. We looked at this

4 document very briefly when we were talking about Zijad Ibric yesterday,

5 and we see his signature there. And he signed that, I take it, because he

6 was the interviewer and the person who took the statement; is that right?

7 A. I talked to this person, and I took this person to the scene. I

8 took him so that he would show me the place where he had to jump off the

9 bridge in Vrhpolje as ordered by the Serb army and where he was shot at

10 and where he hid in the water by the branches. There are also photo

11 documents to prove that.

12 Q. My question is: Why did Zijad Ibric sign this document?

13 A. Because at that time I did not have a typist at court. That was

14 the problem. So then I asked him to do the writing, being a professional

15 in this regard. So he is just a technical person. He used a laptop to

16 write all this. I know this person, this witness very well. He was in

17 camp with me. And after the camp, he went to Germany and -- oh, sorry.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] It's such a simple

19 question.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, Your Honour.

21 Microphone, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]


24 Q. What does it say above the signature of Zijad Ibric? Could you

25 just read that, please.

Page 6007

1 A. "Official of AID."

2 Q. So it doesn't say "typist" or "transcriber" but "AID official,"

3 doesn't it?

4 A. I confirm this to you, that at that time he was a technical

5 person. He was employed as a staff member in AID in Sanski Most.

6 Q. I just asked you what it said. I said it doesn't say "typist" or

7 "transcriber," does it? You can just say "yes" or "no," can't you? I

8 mean, I'm trying to finish today. It was a simple question.

9 A. He's an official of AID.

10 Q. The witness, of course, signed it because he was the witness.

11 That's fairly clear, isn't it?

12 A. Yes. That witness is going to come here too.

13 Q. We know that.

14 Why did you sign it?

15 A. Why?

16 Q. Yeah. What does it signify when you sign this document? What

17 does that mean? What does your signature mean on this document?

18 A. This means that I was carrying out an investigation. I

19 interviewed this witness. This entire case related to the killing in his

20 town, and there are other documents.

21 Q. That's not part of the question I asked you. I only want to know

22 what your signature means on this document. Does it certify that you were

23 involved in this interview and that contents of that statement are true

24 and correct?

25 A. That's right.

Page 6008

1 Q. Could you now look at DB76.1. And again, sir, I just want to

2 direct you to the last page.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, sorry to butt in again, but I think

4 yesterday we came to an agreement that 76.1 and 74.1 are a replica of one

5 another, the same document. And in fact, I noted to you that in the first

6 one 74.1 there was JMB 2309967 which was redacted in 76.1 B, but otherwise

7 they are exactly the same.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour. We can skip that one.


10 MR. ACKERMAN: What's confusing me is the -- the lack of an ERN

11 number at the top of one of them.

12 Q. Let's skip that one, sir, and go to 75.1. Now, 75.1, sir, is

13 another witness statement, I believe. And again, you told us that it

14 bears your signature. And my only question is: Is that the same

15 certification, that you're certifying that you were involved in the taking

16 of this statement and that its contents are correct?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And who is Halima Alagic?

19 A. Halima Alagic.

20 Q. Who is that?

21 A. She's a person who worked for me.

22 Q. All right. Can we look now at 73.1. And again, the last page,

23 sir. Just confirm for me that Mr. Ibric, Mr. Begic, and you signed it and

24 that your signature is there to certify that you participated in the

25 taking of the statement and that it's true and correct.

Page 6009

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. All right. Now, I'd like the registrar to give to the usher 73.2,

3 74.2, and 75.2. And I'd like them arranged on the ELMO so that we can all

4 see them.

5 That's fine.

6 Now, sir, there are three different signatures there, all of which

7 you have told us are yours. Which of those is not yours?

8 A. All three are my signatures.

9 Q. Look at that one on the bottom, sir. You don't make an "L" like

10 that "L" at the end of Adil. And you don't make a "C" like the "C" at the

11 end of Draganovic. That is clearly written by someone else, isn't it?

12 A. Please. If I say that it's my signature, then it's my signature.

13 For me, it's the same signature. It depends on how I feel, and it depends

14 on whether I'm in a hurry. I do my L's this way or that way, but it's my

15 signature.

16 Q. So you want to swear here under oath that all three of those

17 signatures were made by you?

18 A. I state that under oath.

19 Q. Do you know they can be examined by a handwriting expert?

20 A. Why, yes. I don't mind.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't think I can finish in 15

23 minutes, and I would like to -- I'd like to do this last segment --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, we have been sitting for an hour and a

25 half, so it's time to break in any case.

Page 6010

1 We'll break for 20 minutes, if that is okay with everyone.

2 Madam Fauveau? I can't see you.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll resume in exactly 30 minutes from now, and

5 that's at 12.46.

6 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour said 20 minutes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, 20 minutes. Sorry.

8 MS. KORNER: Twenty-five to or thereabouts.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Twenty-five to, yes.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I would ask the usher to

14 hand the witness a blank piece of paper and a pen that I gave him a little

15 while ago.

16 Q. Sir, please make the three signatures that you saw on the ELMO

17 that you said were your signatures. Just make each one of them for me,

18 please, in the order that you saw them on the ELMO.

19 A. You've got several here.

20 Q. So you've made -- okay.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Could the usher collect those, please. Let me see

22 them for a moment.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we should put them on the ELMO first

24 for everyone to see.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Go ahead.

Page 6011

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we give that document a proper formality.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. Could we have that marked as Defendant

3 Brdjanin Exhibit 83, I believe it is. And then what I would like to do,

4 Your Honour, is substitute a copy for the record, because I may want to

5 use the original signatures for comparison purposes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You're going to give it which number?



9 And if you need to use it -- make use of it, Mr. Ackerman, you

10 know what the procedure is.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

12 Q. At -- on May 15th, sir, at page 5654 of the transcript, you were

13 being asked by Ms. Korner about the municipal control -- municipal

14 assembly control over the judiciary. And you gave the following answer:

15 "I think they could not have issued any such orders to me and to other

16 judges; neither could they do so to other judges." And then you said

17 this: "But at that time the situation was different because I no longer

18 had any control over the Serbian judges." Do you recall saying that?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Now, the implication was that before that, you had had some

21 control over the Serbian judges. Is that true?

22 A. That's not true. It wasn't a matter of control in the normal

23 sense of the term.

24 Q. So you never had any control over the Serbian judges, did you?

25 A. In accordance with the law and my authority as president of the

Page 6012

1 court was quite clear.

2 Q. So why did you tell the Chamber that you no longer had control,

3 leaving the impression that you might have previously had control?

4 A. I didn't mean control in the usual sense of the term. But judges

5 of Serbian nationality no longer contacted me. They would no longer come

6 to my office. They would go upstairs. And they -- they remained apart.

7 Every day we couldn't see each other as colleagues in the court any more,

8 as was common practice. That was normal. That's what I was referring to.

9 Q. How about in your court today? Do you exert any control or

10 influence over any of the lower court judges over whom you are the

11 president?

12 A. It's called the municipal court. I don't have any control, apart

13 from the control that I have -- that is provided for in the law. So that

14 authorises me to organise the administration and ensure that there are

15 conditions for work in the court. I schedule the work. I assign cases,

16 and the judges work on an independent basis, just as I am independent as a

17 judge. That's quite clear.

18 Q. Is there a judge in your court by the name of Edina Redzisic?

19 A. There is a judge called Edina.

20 Q. Last name Redzisic?

21 A. Redzisic.

22 Q. Mr. Draganovic, I've alluded to this before today -- you have a

23 very personal interest in convincing this Trial Chamber of many of the

24 things that you have said to them during your testimony here today, don't

25 you?

Page 6013

1 A. It's not in my interest to convince the Trial Chamber of anything,

2 apart from convincing them of the truth. All I have been saying is the

3 truth and nothing but the truth, and everything that I have been asked,

4 everything that the Prosecutor has asked me and that you have asked me and

5 the Trial Chamber too.

6 Q. It could help you personally, couldn't it, sir, if this Chamber

7 were to find that you were telling the truth when you said there was no

8 fighting in the Mahala neighbourhood in Sanski Most, couldn't it?

9 A. I stand by my statement.

10 Q. You didn't answer my question. It could help you personally if

11 this Chamber were to find that you're telling the truth when you say

12 there's no fighting in the Mahala neighbourhood of Sanski Most. Is that a

13 true statement or not? You can just say "yes" or "no."

14 A. I don't know what you are referring to.

15 Q. Well, we'll get there.

16 A. But ...

17 Q. On page 5480 of the transcript of 13 May 2002, you said: "The

18 Serbian authorities removed me from the court illegally. Then they

19 unlawfully arrested me and tortured me in the camp. And they also

20 destroyed my property." What property? What property?

21 A. I was thinking about my private property.

22 Q. Consisting of what?

23 A. It consisted of a house, furniture, car.

24 Q. When was it destroyed?

25 A. It was destroyed on the 27th of May, 1992.

Page 6014

1 Q. How was it destroyed?

2 A. How was it destroyed?

3 Q. Yes. How?

4 A. I was in prison.

5 Q. So you didn't see it happen, did you?

6 A. That's right. I only -- when we descended in the afternoon from

7 the prison cells, I saw a lot of smoke in the air which was coming from

8 the direction of Mahala.

9 Q. You --

10 A. It was very thick smoke.

11 Q. You don't know who destroyed your house, do you?

12 A. I assume -- I think I know who destroyed it, but there are some

13 people who do know who did this.

14 Q. How much compensation have you received through organisations of

15 one form or another for the damage that was done to your home?

16 A. The amount was quite insignificant when compared to the damage

17 that was done.

18 Q. I didn't ask you if it was significant. I said how much did you

19 receive?

20 A. Well, some material and the worth of that material was under

21 10.000 -- under 10.000 convertible marks. Maybe 8.000 or even less.

22 Q. And since you believed that was not satisfactory compensation, you

23 filed a lawsuit in an attempt to recover 100.000 Deutschmarks for damages

24 to your property, didn't you?

25 A. That's right.

Page 6015

1 Q. I'd like you to look at DB69, please -- DB69 B. If you'd look at

2 the very last page, sir. It is signed by you, is it not?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. The date is 25 August 1997? It's there on the last page. Do you

5 see it? Right by your signature.

6 A. That's right, yes.

7 Q. And in this lawsuit you accused seven people. And they're listed

8 right there in the front, aren't they?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. You accused Nedjeljko Rasula and Bosko Banjac, and you say that

11 they ordered and led destruction and burning of your dwelling house;

12 correct?

13 A. That's what it says here. That's right.

14 Q. Well, you wrote that, didn't you?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. And then you said that the direct perpetrators of the destruction

17 of your property, the total destruction of your property, were Dusan

18 Mudrinic and Dusan Saovic who carried out the orders of Rasula and

19 Banjac. That's what you're alleging; right?

20 A. That's what I said, yes.

21 Q. And you're alleging they destroyed it by setting it on fire,

22 aren't you?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. And then you say that you want to point out that the damage was

25 caused away from any combat activities.

Page 6016

1 A. That's my opinion.

2 Q. Yes. And it's important for you to establish that it was away

3 from combat activities because otherwise you wouldn't be able to receive

4 any compensation at all, would you?

5 A. What's important for me -- well --

6 Q. I didn't ask you what was important for you. Look at the question

7 I asked you. It's important for you to establish that it was away from

8 combat activities, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to receive any

9 compensation at all, would you? Just answer that question.

10 A. That doesn't have to mean that.

11 Q. You're familiar with the Dayton Accords regarding these matters,

12 aren't you?

13 A. Yes, I'm familiar with the Dayton Agreement.

14 Q. All right. Now, you have named Nedjeljko Rasula and Bosko Banjac

15 as ordering the destruction of your house and Dusan Mudrinic and Dusan

16 Saovic as actually doing it. But you also have brought action against

17 Slobodanka Saovic, Jelena Indjic, Danica Cucum, and Dusanka Grbic. What

18 did they do to your house?

19 A. They didn't do anything to my house.

20 Q. They just happened to be relatives of people who you think did

21 something to your house, don't they?

22 A. They were the legal inheritors of Saovic Dusan. They inherited

23 his property, because he died.

24 Q. Did you say he was died or did you say he was killed -- did you

25 say he died or did you say he was killed?

Page 6017

1 A. Dusan Saovic, as far as I know, he died.

2 Q. Your Honour, I think he's saying killed and the translation is

3 coming off as died. That's what I'm told?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The interpreters please. I am being told by

7 Mr. Ackerman that the witness is using a word which ought to be translated

8 or interpreted as "killed" while it is being translated twice already as

9 "died." Which is the right interpretation? And I'm going to ask the

10 witness to repeat what he said before.

11 Judge, be patient. Did Dusan Saovic, or whatever his name is,

12 die a natural death or was he killed? What did you say?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dusan Saovic was killed.


15 Q. Thank you. So then what you asked for in addition to 100.000

16 Deutschmarks was that you asked the Court to impose temporary security

17 measures to forbid the alienation of the real estate and burden of the

18 real estate belonging to all these people who you had accused in this

19 document, didn't you?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Now, you didn't detach to the document any documents from a court

22 of probate showing that these people you sued were the legal heirs of the

23 person who you claim is -- was killed, did you?

24 A. Please. This is a formal complaint which was submitted. At the

25 time -- I didn't have it at the time. But the court can obtain such

Page 6018

1 documents in its official capacity. But other evidence was obtained.

2 Q. You filed this case in your own court, didn't you?

3 A. The complaint -- yes, I filed it in my own court.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... assignments, you assigned it

5 to Edina Redzisic, a judge of that court, didn't you?

6 A. Yes, according to the schedule -- the annual schedule, the cases

7 were submitted and cross-submitted to the Judge Edina Redzisic. But she's

8 no longer in the court in Sanski Most.

9 Q. And you got the Judge Edina Redzisic to grant your request and

10 impose these temporary measures on all of this property, didn't you?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Judge. I think I'm going to ask you to

12 rephrase the question. Because and you got -- the judge seems to --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I will.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- To hint that he used undue pressure on Judge

15 Edina.

16 MS. KORNER: I understood that was the suggestion Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. But this is why I'm asking him. If

18 he's making that allegation, he needs to put it in no equivocal terms. I

19 mean, it's -- because --


21 Q. Judge --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Having an interpretation between killed and died, I

23 start doubting how it's being put to the witness.


25 Q. Judge, Edina Redzisic granted exactly what you had requested that

Page 6019

1 she grant in terms of temporary measures, didn't she?

2 A. The judge adopted a temporary decision forbidding appropriation --

3 temporarily.

4 Q. That's exactly what you asked her to do, wasn't it?

5 A. With the complaint, I also attached a proposal with the statement

6 of reasons.

7 Q. I'd like you to look at DB70 B, sir. The copy is not good, but I

8 think you can read the second page, which is what I'm interested in.



11 Q. If you look at the second page, the full paragraph starting at the

12 top. "Since the complainant has presented the existence of the claim as

13 probable and indicated the existing danger that the debtors, that is,

14 accused, might obstruct or significantly complicate the payment of the

15 claim by alienating their property, the Court has adopted the

16 complainant's proposal and issued a decision as given above." And then it

17 cites the articles of the law on executive procedures upon which it is

18 based. Correct?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Then the judge says: "It is not possible to file a special appeal

21 against this decision"; correct?

22 A. I can't see what it says there.

23 Q. All right. Do you recall if anywhere in this document where she

24 refers to the complainant that she indicated that you were the president

25 of the court? Do you recall that being in there?

Page 6020

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. It's all very well to have a

2 translation of something, but we don't know what it is that's written

3 there, at that last line.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand it's very difficult to read.

5 MS. KORNER: Well, I'd like to know how the translator managed it.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: There probably was a better copy, and this probably

7 got copied poorly, and I will try to find that better copy and substitute

8 it, Your Honour, because Ms. Korner is right, there should be a better

9 copy in the --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps, I mean, a very short question --

11 MR. ACKERMAN: It's not an important question, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then leave it. But you are definitely right.


14 Q. I would like you to look at DB68 B, sir. This document, sir, is

15 a -- it's called an answer to the charge by the proxy of the fourth and

16 seventh accused. And it's filed by a lawyer named Radovan Stanic from

17 Prijedor. I assume you have seen this document before.

18 A. Yes. I received this answer to the judge.

19 Q. And if you look about halfway through that first paragraph, right

20 before the words -- the name Saovic Dusan, that lawyer says, does he not

21 that, "The Court has without having a critical estimate regarding the

22 proposed evidence and in contrary to the provisions in Article 265 and

23 266 ZIP, and without holding a preparatory hearing, issued a decision

24 imposing temporary measures." That's what that lawyer argues in that

25 answer; correct?

Page 6021

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Now, I'd like you to look at DB71 B. This, sir, is a document

3 from the canton court in Bihac of 25 January 2001 regarding this same

4 case.

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And the judge who signed this, the presiding judge, was Ilvana

7 Pracic or something like that.

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. And this court says: "The municipal court Sanski Most has filed

10 with this court a request for delegation of another municipal court due to

11 the fact that in the case P number 419/99, the complainant Draganovic,

12 Adil has a legal post in the municipal court Sanski Most, and therefore --

13 at aiming at economic aspect, another court should be appointed." And the

14 request was for the appointment of the municipal court in Kljuc; correct?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. Who in the municipal court in Sanski Most filed the request for

17 delegation of another municipal court because of your position? Do you

18 know?

19 A. Probably the judge who was involved in this case.

20 Q. After she had entered the temporary orders that you requested;

21 correct?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. The canton court in Bihac did not accept the recommendation to

24 appoint the municipal court in Kljuc but instead sent the case to Bosanska

25 Krupa; correct?

Page 6022

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Now, I'd like you to look at DB72 B, please. Now, this is a

3 decision of the municipal court in Bosanska Krupa, and the judge is Asim

4 Berberovic; correct?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And this decision was entered on 5 May 2001; yes?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. And so it had been almost 18 months since Judge Edina tied up the

9 property of all these people before the court in Krupa entered its

10 decision; correct?

11 A. The judge did not tie up the property. It was just a ban on

12 alienation that was registered in the land register.

13 Q. Yes. They couldn't sell it. They couldn't do anything with it.

14 They couldn't sell it. They couldn't alienate. They couldn't do anything

15 with it because of that order. That's what the order was all about;

16 right?

17 A. That's not right. That's not right. They only couldn't sell it.

18 That's what it meant.

19 Q. I think that's what I said. They couldn't -- they couldn't

20 mortgage it either. I mean, they couldn't borrow money on it and give a

21 mortgage or -- I don't know what you call them in your country, but they

22 couldn't do that either. They couldn't do anything to tie up that

23 property and keep you from getting your hands on it if you won your case.

24 A. That's not right.

25 Q. Okay. Look at -- look at this DB72 document, please. And under

Page 6023

1 the word "decision," you'll see a paragraph beginning "Herewith is

2 granted." And it says: "Herewith is granted the motion filed by the

3 accused Banjac Bosko, Rasula Nedjeljko, Saovic, Bojanvokic [phoen],

4 Slobodanka, and Grbic - born Saovic - Dusanka regarding the decision of

5 the municipal court in Sanski Most number P419-99, dated 22 November 1999.

6 And the temporary measure forbidding the alienation and burden of the real

7 estate of the accused is in its whole revoked. The same applies for the

8 actions carried out in the procedure."

9 Now, apparently the persons accused by you filed a motion with the

10 Court in Bosanska Krupa asking that these temporary measures be revoked

11 because they were illegally and improperly entered; correct?

12 A. That's not correct.

13 Q. If you look at the next page, there's a paragraph that starts with

14 "The accused Banjac Bosko." It says he file add motion on 6 January 2001,

15 named answer to the charge, and stated in that objection that

16 complainant's house -- that would be your house -- was devastated during

17 the combat activities, as it was the case with other buildings that were

18 the property of three nations in the whole Bosnia-Herzegovina. He denies

19 taking part in any matter in the devastation of the complainant's house

20 and requests from the complainant to revoke the complaint and from the

21 Court to revoke the temporary measure forbidding the handling of his real

22 estate. The third accused Rasula Nedjeljko filed an objection on 3 March

23 2000 named answer to the charge, saying it was untrue that he ordered the

24 demolition of anyone's house, which applies for the complainant's house as

25 well. He contests the legal foundation for the complaint and asked for

Page 6024

1 revocation."

2 And then at the end of that next paragraph with Grbic and Dusanka

3 people -- the last couple of sentences it says: "In the end it is stated

4 that there is no legal ground for holding the accused Saovic Slobodanka,

5 Indjic Jelena, Cucum Danica, and Grbic Dusanka responsible for the

6 complainant's damage. He proposed to the Court to revoke the temporary

7 measures."

8 Then the Court makes its decision: "In the opinion of this Court,

9 there was no legal foundation for issuing temporary measures that forebode

10 the alienation and burden of the real estate belonging to the accused from

11 Article 266, paragraph 1.2 ZIP, namely in accordance with Article 265,

12 paragraph 1 ZIP, temporary measure can be issued if the creditor, that is,

13 complainant, shows as probable the existence of the claim and danger that

14 without such a measure, the debtor -- that is, the accused could obstruct

15 or significantly complicate the payment of the creditor's claim in this

16 case, the complainant's. The Court could not determine from the complaint

17 or the decision which particular actions could the accused undertake in

18 order to complicate the payment of the complainant's claim. Besides, the

19 Court did not have legal foundation for issuing decision for temporary

20 measures in relation to Saovic Darinka who died in 1993, and as such

21 could not be a party in the procedure, in which manner the Court

22 determined that the accused Saovic Slobodanka, Indjic Jelena, Cucum

23 Danica, and Grbic Dusanka are the legal beneficiaries of Saovic - born

24 Lavic - Derinka [phoen], is not visible from the documents since there is

25 no decision on inheritance. Finally it should be stated that the decision

Page 6025

1 for temporary number measures, number P419/99, dated 22 November 1999 is

2 in contrast to the annex 7 of the Dayton Agreement and especially with the

3 agreement on refugees and displaced persons, Article 11, mandate, Article

4 12, procedure before the commission, point 2 and 6 where it is said, and

5 we quote 'for every person who requests repatriation of the property and

6 the commission establishes that he/she is the legal owner of that

7 property, it will be repatriated. In every person who requests

8 compensation and exchange of the repatriation and the commission

9 establishes that he/she is the legal owner of that property, the just

10 compensation will be given and it will be determined by the commission.'

11 In point 6 it is said: "In the case when the creditor was granted with

12 the compensation in exchange of repatriation of property, the commission

13 can grant a financial indemnity or compensatory bond for future purchasing

14 of real estate."

15 And then finally, contrary to the order entered by Judge Edina,

16 this Court says: "It is possible to appeal this decision."

17 Now, Judge, from what we've looked at, it appears that you filed a

18 case without legal foundation in your own court, as the judge in the court

19 where you were the president of the court. That judge entered illegal

20 orders and tied up property for 18 months. And only when it got to a

21 court over which you apparently had no control did these temporary

22 measures get revoked and was it pointed out that what you had asked the

23 judge to do in Sanski Most was to enter an order that violated not just

24 the law of Bosnia-Herzegovina but the Dayton Accords. My question is: Do

25 judges in the lower courts of Bosnia-Herzegovina have any kind of

Page 6026

1 ethical responsibilities?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge. The question may be a little bit long.

3 Actually, the question is very simple. It's the last part, because the

4 rest is a statement that Mr. Ackerman is making. And the question

5 actually is: Do you judges in the lower courts of Bosnia-Herzegovina have

6 any kind of ethical responsibility -- so code of ethics or ethical rules

7 that you are bound to follow? If I have used words or phrases that do

8 not reflect what you stated, Mr. Ackerman, please correct me.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine, Judge.

10 A. Of course we do. Of course we do. By your leave, I would just

11 like to say something very brief. This is a civil suit. What was decided

12 by the municipal court is a decision or a temporary measure banning

13 alienation. However, that does not mean that the judge worked without any

14 feeling of conscience or a set of criteria. This is a case that is

15 underway in Bosanska Krupa.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You can stop there. In other words, do I take it

17 that you have appealed this decision?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't submitted an appeal. The

19 proceedings continue. This is an ongoing case. The temporary measure was

20 stopped, and I did not complain about that. However, probably during

21 these proceedings I have the intention of moving once again for imposing a

22 new temporary measure.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

24 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman in the course of this lengthy attack on

25 the judge ended up by making a statement which in my view was in any event

Page 6027

1 misleading on what he'd read out that this was an illegal and whatever

2 procedure. That is not the case. And the judge is entitled to explain

3 that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. He's perfectly entitled to explain that. And

5 I'm not stopping him from explaining that. When I stopped him is stating

6 that he has intentions maybe later on to bring up the question of reviving

7 the injunction --

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the judge is entitled to explain that he

9 didn't appeal the temporary restraining order, that the action against

10 these men is continued.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I let him state that. And if there is anything else

12 that he'd like to add, he is free to add it, but not what he intends to do

13 in the future.

14 Yes, Judge.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there anything else you would like to add before

17 you are re-examined by the Prosecutor?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just briefly, by your leave.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. But please be brief, because you

20 have only 12 minutes left. And if we don't finish in those 12 minutes, it

21 means you have to come again Monday.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I had already made the decision that

23 such re-examinations I had are not worth keeping the judge here for. And

24 I think he's entitled to answer in the way he wishes what has just been

25 put to him.

Page 6028

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I will let him say what he wants. Yes, Judge,

2 please go ahead.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wished to say that this complaint

4 of mine is a matter of principle for compensation for the damages

5 sustained, the damage I sustained as a citizen. All the property my wife

6 and I acquired over the past 15 or 20 years of our work was ruthlessly and

7 in a bloodthirsty manner destroyed and seized within 15 minutes' time. I

8 lodged this complaint as a matter of principle. And as for this complaint

9 of mine and as for the proceedings that are ongoing before the Court in

10 Krupa, I shall go on with that against those persons from whom according

11 to civil law I have the right to sue for compensation of damages. Thank

12 you.

13 MS. KORNER: I want to make sure that I understand this

14 cross-examination. It is suggested that because of a civil suit, is it,

15 the judge has invented his evidence about the destruction of Mahala?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being suggested that he has an interest in

17 convincing this Court that there was no resistance in Mahala and that

18 therefore -- yeah. But anyway, let me let -- let me have Mr. Ackerman

19 respond to that.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: In the face of this evidence to the contrary and

21 throughout the testimony, even when not asked, this judge has gratuitously

22 thrown in that there was no fighting in Mahala that, there was no fighting

23 in Mahala, that there was no fighting in Mahala, that nobody was armed and

24 nobody had weapons. And Your Honour, a finding by this Tribunal that

25 there was no fighting in Mahala could be used by him, I think, in his

Page 6029

1 lawsuit --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I got your point. That's --

3 MR. ACKERMAN: That's my point. And I'm --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, I did not misunderstand him at any

5 given moment.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: And the other point is that the Krupa Court ruled

7 that the order entered by Judge Edina from his court was illegal and

8 improper. That was the other point.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But let's --

10 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm sorry. I still don't --

11 I don't understand, I should say, because that's -- purpose of any

12 re-examination. What is the purpose of this cross-examination? In

13 other words, is it suggested that the judge has either erred in his

14 factual description, is lying in his factual description, has forged

15 documents -- because clearly there's an allegation impliedly being made

16 that he didn't sign this document. Though what issue that goes to, I

17 don't know.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know either at this point in time.

19 MS. KORNER: But Your Honour, I want to understand what it is --

20 and the witness ought to be given an opportunity. That is the point of

21 90(H).

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness is -- first of all, he's a judge and he

23 should understand. There is a very clear-cut allegation of dishonesty

24 that is being thrown in his regard by Mr. Ackerman.

25 MS. KORNER: I understand that.

Page 6030

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And he's the one to -- I was going to say stand up

2 and answer to that if he has an answer. But it's up to him. I'm not

3 going to stop him.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, no. I'm sorry. It's obviously my

5 fault. I'm not making myself clear. I do not from what I have listened

6 to, the cross-examination in -- I understand Madam Fauveau's

7 cross-examination perfectly. It is an allegation that somehow he is

8 involved with forgery of a map for example and the diary. I do not

9 understand from Mr. Ackerman's cross-examination -- and I think we are

10 entitled to understand, as is the witness -- what it is suggested that

11 this witness has not done or done or whatever.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I think --

13 MS. KORNER: The witness --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You are right. Let's go through it bit by

15 bit or one by one in these six -- seven minutes.

16 Mr. Ackerman, are you suggesting that the witness -- this is how I

17 understood you. Are you suggesting that the witness lied to the Trial

18 Chamber when he said that there was no resistance, no fighting in Mahala?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm suggesting that it's highly probable that he

20 did because of the lawsuit that he has. It's worth 100.000 Deutschmarks

21 to him. That's what I'm suggesting.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: In my mind, it's all tied up.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know that he lied. I wasn't there. But

24 I'm suggesting that it's highly probable that he did. I'm also suggesting

25 that it's highly probable that one of those signatures that we saw today

Page 6031

1 is not his. Just looking at it, any one would conclude that one of those

2 signatures can't be his, because it's written very different. It's a

3 completely different handwriting. Now, whether I'm right about that or

4 not, it's going to depend I suppose on a handwriting expert looking at it

5 and giving us an opinion. And the Prosecutor will be free to have a

6 handwriting expert look at it too. And so whether that turns out -- if my

7 suspicion about that is correct or not, I don't know. But I'm not a

8 handwriting expert, so I can't make that conclusion, and I don't know what

9 Ms. Korner wants from me. But I'm -- I think I've made it clear.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I've said let's go through it bit by bit.

11 And are you suggesting that there is a motive behind what you're

12 suspecting, namely that if the witness convinces this Trial Chamber that

13 there was no fighting in Mahala, then that would suit or improve his

14 chances in the civil case that he has been testifying about?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: If he could get this Court to make that finding --

16 this is perhaps the most prestigious Court in the world doing this kind of

17 work right now. That authority would be more than persuasive --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: That's the interest. It's a 100.000 Deutschemark

20 interest.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And finally, are you suggesting that as regards the

22 proceedings in Sanski Most or wherever -- where Edina -- Judge Edina was

23 presiding, he manipulated the situation? Are you making that suggestion?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no basis upon which to make that, but

25 it's -- I think it's highly probable. I don't think there's a country in

Page 6032

1 the world where the president of the court can file a lawsuit in his own

2 court and have one of his own judges decide his own case. Somebody

3 figured out after that order was entered that what was going on there was

4 improper and it needed to be sent away. It should have been sent away --

5 he should have known to send it away to another court immediately. He was

6 the president of the court. He should have known that.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And are you making any other allegation --

8 Or Ms. Korner, are you thinking of any other allegation --

9 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, this is actually -- I'm sorry.

10 This is the most incredible, if I may say so, conversation that

11 Mr. Ackerman -- or speech that Mr. Ackerman is making. It is improper to

12 make these sort of suggestions that he has been making without the

13 slightest foundation for so doing so. What is more -- Your Honour, my

14 question was a simple straightforward one. This witness has given clear

15 and unambiguous evidence of the events that he says took place in Sanski

16 Most, of the events that he says happened to him in Manjaca, of the

17 documents that were found in Sanski Most which he has produced. My simple

18 question is: Is any of that evidence as to fact that he has given

19 challenged? Is it to be suggested that he has manufactured in some way or

20 was a party to the manufacture of the documents which we have produced in

21 the bundle? That's all that I want to know before this witness leaves.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm a defence lawyer. It's the

24 Prosecutor's job to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. I am

25 challenging that proof every way that I know how. I think there is ample

Page 6033

1 basis for suggesting that this witness was not being truthful about what

2 happened in Sanski Most. Much of what he said about what happened in

3 Sanski Most happened while he was in a cell that he couldn't even see out

4 of. So he can't possibly know about some of the things that he has told

5 you are facts, like destruction of his house.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: As I see it, Ms. Korner, you are perfectly right. I

7 can actually understand very well the problem that you're --

8 MS. KORNER: I'm not going to -- I'm not going to pursue this.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But the thing -- I think the allegation is very --

10 is a very straightforward one. Mr. Ackerman has tried all along to

11 discredit this witness, presenting him as a dishonest person. This is how

12 I take it.

13 Am I right, Mr. Ackerman? It doesn't mean to say that he has not

14 told us the truth in everything. I mean, but this is how Mr. Ackerman, I

15 think --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: You're absolutely right. And from yesterday, when

17 I accused him of stealing a roof until today, when I accused him of

18 forgery and improper judicial behaviour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And this is --

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I think there's evidence supporting all of

21 those.

22 MS. KORNER: He didn't actually accuse the judge of forgery. He

23 accused someone else unknown of forging the judge's signature, which makes

24 it even curiouser.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: She's absolutely right. I did. But he said it was

Page 6034

1 his signature. So I was accusing him of not speaking the truth about

2 that.


4 Judge, I hope that the proceedings in your court are less

5 troublesome than they are here. I take this opportunity to thank you for

6 coming here, for giving evidence.

7 You don't need the witness for any re-examination, I understand

8 it, Ms. Korner. No?

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, after what has just transpired, I would

10 think it an insult to the witness to re-examine him.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I object pretty strongly to that. It would not be

13 an insult to the witness to re-examine him.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Please.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: And that's just an outrageous remark.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, please. Not in front of the witness,

17 in any case.

18 Once more, I thank you for coming here on my behalf and on behalf

19 of the other two Judges, and I wish you a safe journey home. Thank you.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the only thing that I'm going to draw

21 your attention to -- and I don't need the witness to do it, because

22 Mr. Ackerman declined -- but if Your Honour does -- and Your Honours --

23 I'm sorry. Go to the P227 for your own time in the 18th of May, you will

24 find there the decision which refers to item number 11.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You've side it -- you've said it already.

Page 6035

1 Actually.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think the witness can be escorted out of the

4 courtroom.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me to thank the Honourable

6 Trial Chamber, the Office of the Prosecution and all the court officers.

7 I am deeply offended as a person and as a professional, deeply. That's

8 what I wish to say. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So Monday we start with the new witness?

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So the session -- the court is adjourned until

14 Monday at -- we'll still be -- 9.00 in the morning, yes.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

16 at 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

17 the 27th day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.