Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6811

1 Friday, 7 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you

9 hear me in a language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

11 Honour. I can hear you and understand you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

13 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

14 language that you can understand?

15 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

16 I can hear you in a language I understand.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] But the mike isn't working.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please check -- yes, it's working now, your

20 microphone. It's working now. Okay. You may sit down, General Talic.

21 Thank you.

22 Appearances for the Prosecution.

23 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner and Anna Richterova assisted by Denise

24 Gustin case manager, good afternoon, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Ms. Korner.

Page 6812

1 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

2 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. My

3 name is Trbojevic. With me is lead counsel, Mr. Ackerman, and our

4 assistant Marela Jevtovic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you.

6 Appearances for General Talic.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

8 Mr. President, Your Honours. I am Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau, representing

9 General Talic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Good afternoon to you.

11 I understand there are some preliminaries? Yes, Madam Fauveau.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, I should like

13 to draw attention to a problem of interpretation. Yesterday on page 71 of

14 the LiveNote, I said I was not discussing the conditions at the hospital.

15 This was translated as: [In English] "I don't contest the conditions that

16 may have prevailed in that hospital." [Interpretation] Actually I don't

17 think that that is the fault of the interpreters, because the word

18 "debattre" has several meanings in the French language. But what I

19 wanted to say was at this point in time I was not debating -- I was not

20 addressing myself to the conditions in the hospital.

21 Another point is that I should like to ask the permission of the

22 Chamber to be able in the presence of the registrar or someone -- some

23 other official, if I may examine the Red Cross documents in the possession

24 of the witness, because I have serious doubts to -- serious doubts as to

25 the fact that the witness does not have two documents but in fact three

Page 6813

1 documents in his possession.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if he has three and he has chosen to bring

3 forward two, I'm not going to let you have the third one unless you tell

4 me -- you give me a good reason. But it's -- if -- he has no right -- he

5 is under no obligation -- he was under no obligation to bring those two

6 documents in the first place.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what he says

8 is that these documents show that he was in the prison in Tunjice, and I

9 am contesting that. And I think that those documents don't prove it.

10 They put -- he put two documents together to prove that. And these are

11 separate documents. And if we look at them separately, there's absolutely

12 no proof.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems to me that he had two documents yesterday.

14 We'll call him. If he still has them -- there's no question of not having

15 a photocopy of the same documents, because they were handed over to the

16 usher, and the usher went to photocopy straight away. So unless it's a

17 question of authenticity, I don't even see why you should even look at the

18 originals again. But if he has them and it is necessary to see them

19 again, we'll see them again. But otherwise, the -- I have no reason, and

20 I see no plausible reason, why the -- what you have, what you were given

21 yesterday, whether that is in reality the document that he showed us

22 yesterday. And that's about it. I mean, I'm not going to force a witness

23 to show us other documents that he doesn't want to show us -- if he has

24 them.

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The document that is he

Page 6814

1 showed us are three documents and not two.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll check that. I only saw two. I am not

3 excluding that he may have a third -- may have had a third one yesterday,

4 but I only saw two.

5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you look at the

6 photocopy of DT18 Defence exhibit, it is quite clear that these are two

7 separate documents.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Oh, yes, that I remember. That, I remember.

9 Because this document had this small piece of paper in front -- folding

10 and lifting it. So this -- if you want to consider it as a separate piece

11 of paper, yes, it is a separate piece of paper. But it was attached to

12 this one. And then the other document that he had was this one.

13 They were photocopied by the usher, so it's -- there's no question of not

14 having photocopied the document that is the witness had. I don't

15 understand you -- I don't understand the logic behind your -- your request

16 at this point.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] My only problem is the

18 problem --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll get the documents.

20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- DT18. Because there's

21 absolutely no proof that the document at the bottom is attached to the

22 document on top. And it doesn't -- the document that mentions the prison of

23 Tunjice does not bear the name of the witness.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Bring the witness --

25 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... we're just

Page 6815

1 searching the transcript. The witness is actually saying -- and it may be

2 that better be clarified -- he was in Banja Luka Hospital in a ward that

3 had been assigned to people from --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: The urology and then -- the urology ward there was a

5 cell. That's what he kept saying yesterday.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: First 8 and then 9.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes, that's right. But it's Banja Luka Hospital.

9 It's not the actual prison itself. Okay.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's for sure. We're not talking of a prison

11 compound outside -- outside the hospital of Banja Luka. Definitely not.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. That was quite clear

13 during the testimony of the witness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So the witness.

15 Now, we have a problem. You're not the only ones with problems.

16 Fortunately I -- due to an emergency I need to leave today and not later

17 than 6.00. So in other words, we need to finish a little bit earlier.

18 May I rely on your cooperation and have one break only, instead of

19 two today?

20 Yes. But first we'll go step by step.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have no problem with that. And let

22 me just say while I'm on my feet that I had difficulty with scheduling

23 next week, and I'm actually arriving back in The Hague on Monday. My

24 flight is due to arrive at Schiphol at around 11.00. It shouldn't cause

25 my problem with my being here at 2.15. But I just want to alert you to

Page 6816

1 the problem that if there's a weather problem or something like that, I'm

2 running on a pretty tight window there. But there's not much I can do

3 about it.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That will be understandable. And in any

5 case, I can guarantee you that the Tribunal will take all the necessary

6 measures --

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it is in fact -- unfortunately the whole

8 business is now creating a problem, because we slowed up. Unlike

9 everybody else, I'm going to have the deal with the Stakic case next week,

10 and I'm going to be in court calling a witness next week and Stakic is not

11 sitting on Friday. And it's a long witness, Thursday and -- Wednesday and

12 Thursday of next week. This witness we're about to call next is clearly

13 not going to finish today in chief. So it may be that on the Monday week

14 I'm going to find myself in two courts at the same time with a witness.

15 And how we're going to resolve that is something I'm quite unclear about.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Korner, when these problems arise, just make a

17 suggestion and we'll come along. Because as long as these things don't

18 happen capriciously, you will find the full understanding of the Tribunal.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So, tell me what you would like and I will

21 accommodate you has I will accommodate the Defence if these problems

22 arise.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what I'm hoping to do is to complete the

24 witness in the Stakic case in chief in the two days -- we're sitting all

25 day, I understand, in the Stakic case next week. And then have somebody

Page 6817

1 else take over at that stage, because it's more difficult to have another

2 lawyer take over a witness in mid-stream. But I'm just raising that in

3 case it arises.

4 But can I just tell Your Honours that we've reorganised the

5 witness list.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I see that.

7 MS. KORNER: Because again we have to get in the witnesses. 7.139

8 and 143 are the witnesses who are both reluctant to attend and had to be

9 persuaded. And we gave them a date. So they need to come in definitely

10 next week, as does the next witness, 7.52. So we -- I'm afraid we've had

11 to alter the order again.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- so number 27 --

13 MS. KORNER: Number 27 will follow on, I should imagine at the

14 moment it's now going to be Tuesday. And then number 28, 29, and 30.

15 They are all what I call effectively crime base witnesses.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

17 MS. KORNER: So I would hope that we could get through them fairly

18 quickly.

19 And then 7.52 will be testifying here on Friday. And then the

20 following week in the Stakic case. So again, I'd hope that we could

21 complete his evidence in total on the Friday.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please try to liaise as much as you can with

23 the Defence so that this is pretty much clear for -- it would be pretty

24 much clear for them as well to know exactly what to expect and when,

25 because it's more important for the Defence than it is for the -- for the

Page 6818

1 Trial Chamber because we most of the time listen while they have to

2 prepare --

3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that's why this list has been

4 prepared.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But in other words, is this what you provided

6 today the correct -- the final? Or are you even -- are you changing this

7 too?


9 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the final.

10 MS. KORNER: That's a change from the list that we last gave you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yes. That's definite. That definitely is a

12 change.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So we start with 7.13?

15 MS. KORNER: No. On Monday, whatever it is, the 17th or whatever,

16 it will be still the witness from today I anticipate.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Okay. All right. And after this will

18 come --

19 MS. KORNER: After that --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.13 will be immediately after.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes. And Your Honour, we're considerably trying to

22 reduce the list as well and we'll reduce this list even more.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That will be even before.

24 You see, without imposing you get the same result sometimes even

25 better. Without imposing.

Page 6819

1 MS. KORNER: Oh, I'm sorry. I see what Your Honour -- sorry. I'd

2 lost Your Honour for a moment.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I try to make you all understand that --

4 why I stick to the system that I have adopted, because more or less it

5 gives you the opportunity to take decisions better. And that way we move

6 ahead.

7 Good. Anyway, where is the witness?

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Stojic.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you kindly repeat once more today the solemn

12 declaration that you made yesterday.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

18 By any chance -- yesterday you showed us some documents that you

19 had from the Red Cross. Do you have them here with you today?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can I have a look at them, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: What's this other document in the back here? What

Page 6820

1 is it?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My brothers, Ivo and Ante, sent me a

3 visa for entry into the Republic of Croatia.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to see that?

5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please show these documents to Madam Fauveau

7 and then to the Prosecutor and to Mr. Ackerman, for whatever they are

8 worth.

9 Are you interested in that other document that we didn't see

10 yesterday?

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But I

12 think it would perhaps be better for me to begin with my cross-examination

13 and things will be clarified through the cross-examination.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you have any objection at all that we

15 photocopy that document too?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have it photocopied once Mr. Ackerman and

18 Madam -- and Ms. Korner have finished with it.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have here a visa too

20 with the stamp indicating when I crossed the border into the Republic of

21 Croatia.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it was given to me in Caritas.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like it to be copied, yes.

Page 6821

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll photocopy that too and we'll have it

2 distributed.

3 And in the meantime, you can hand this document to Ms. Korner --

4 to Madam Fauveau, and it will take its round, if it is important.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next document I have is from the

7 municipal Red Cross organisation of Banja Luka, which I used as a pass to

8 reach Novska -- it served as a pass for me to reach Novska.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you interested in that as well, Madam Fauveau?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like this to be disclosed too.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I can't comment when I

12 don't know what the document says.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But he told you what it is.

14 Anyway, we'll photocopy that too and then we'll decide whether you

15 want to have them admitted as --

16 He has a lot of documents here, and I don't want to go ahead

17 having to go through each and every one of these documents. I mean, it

18 doesn't make sense.

19 Madam Fauveau, please, your cross-examination.

20 Yes. Photocopy them and then we'll see them later.

21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar give

22 the witness DT19, please.

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic: [Continued]

24 Q. [Interpretation] This document was issued in Zagreb, the 27th of

25 January 1993?

Page 6822

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. It is a form of the Red Cross, isn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And on this form, certain information was written in advance,

5 whereas other information is added case by case, on a case-by-case basis,

6 regarding the person in question; is that right?

7 A. What do you mean a case-by-case basis?

8 Q. For instance, if you look at the fourth line, it says "in

9 prison." Those are the words to be found on the printed form.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Whereas "Banja Luka" was added subsequently.

12 A. You have to add. It is a form that needs to be filled in.

13 Q. And on this form, after the word "Banja Luka," there is no

14 "Tunjice," -- the word "Tunjice," does not appear.

15 A. Yes. But you have it on another document where it says

16 "Tunjice."

17 Q. My question is with respect to this document. I'm asking you

18 about this document.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, why -- I cannot allow a witness to

20 justify the entries in a document for which he is not responsible. I

21 mean, these entries were made by other persons. Unless you are suggesting

22 that he made those entries.

23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: How can you expect him to give you an explanation?

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

Page 6823

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You should ask from the person -- what persons who

2 are responsible for the entries in these documents.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think that a

4 representative of the Red Cross will come to testify here. This document

5 was issued in Croatia in 1993.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you expect him to answer you, to explain to

7 you --

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... and in another

10 one there isn't?

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll come to the other

12 document.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Then come to the other document.

14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like no know

15 whether the witness knows regarding document DT19. It is indicated that

16 the document was done on the basis of a statement by the authorities.

17 Q. Do you know whether those authorities were Croatian authorities?

18 A. That refers to the authorities in Banja Luka.

19 Q. But that is not indicated on the document.

20 A. It is indicated on another document.

21 Q. But on this one it is not indicated.

22 A. What is your aim? Are you contesting the accuracy of the

23 International Committee of the Red Cross?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojic, please don't argue with the lawyer, with

25 Defence counsel, who is here to do her duty. So don't argue with her.

Page 6824

1 Answer the question. If it is not a legitimate question, I will stop you

2 from answering, but otherwise just answer the question. No arguments,

3 please. And I'm sure you understand.

4 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Is it correct that on this document which authorities are in

7 question is not indicated?

8 A. I have no comment to make to such questions.

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar give

10 the witness document DT18, please.

11 Q. There are indeed two documents on this piece of paper; isn't that

12 true?

13 A. Yes, that is true.

14 Q. The first is a message which Ante and Ivo Stojic sent you while

15 you were still at the hospital in Banja Luka; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. And the visa was attached to that document; is that true?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. So actually you received this document while you were at the

20 hospital in Banja Luka together with the visa.

21 A. I did not receive that document in Banja Luka at all. It is

22 clearly stated up there next to the stamp that the Croatian Red Cross took

23 over from the International Committee of the Red Cross on the 25th of

24 February, 1993. And I was already in Croatia then.

25 Q. I see well that that is what it says on top and also on the bottom

Page 6825

1 it says "11th of December, Tunjice, released." The problem is that

2 nothing proves that this was entered by the Red Cross. Nothing on this

3 document prove that is?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, that's an argument. That's a submission,

5 Madam Fauveau, not a question.

6 So don't answer that question.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. To enter Croatia, you needed a visa, didn't you?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. And before entering Croatia, you didn't receive the visa.

11 A. I did.

12 Q. How did you obtain it?

13 A. I obtained it in Caritas in Banja Luka.

14 Q. And how did Caritas obtain the visa, if you know?

15 A. You need to ask a representative of Caritas that.

16 Q. So according to you, the Croatian authorities at the same time

17 issued two visas for one and the same person.

18 A. The visa was copied and certified as being authentic.

19 Q. Yes. The two visas that you showed here have been certified. I

20 agree with you fully.

21 The document at the very bottom of DT18 actually is a photocopy.

22 You don't have the original of that document?

23 A. It's a photocopy, yes. But on the back, it has been certified.

24 So it is a trustworthy document. I have the original on me.

25 Q. In any event, that document makes no mention of your name.

Page 6826

1 A. Which one?

2 Q. The small piece of paper at the very bottom where a person was

3 liberated on the 11th of December, 1992 from the Tunjice prison.

4 A. As far as I know, it is attached to the message of the

5 International Committee of the Red Cross.

6 Q. And this Red Cross message is where?

7 A. In Banja Luka.

8 Q. So the Red Cross in Banja Luka gave you only this piece of paper

9 without your name, without your address, without anything.

10 A. My name is indicated here.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I have an objection, because I can't see any

13 point of this cross-examination.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not completely relevant. But my objection

15 would be that the witness has already answered this question. He said one

16 was attached to the other. That's how he got it.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] This document is a message

20 from family members of the witness to the witness, through the

21 intermediary of the Red Cross. It is not a message from the Red Cross of

22 Banja Luka to the witness. So my question is --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... an argument.

24 Put a question, and we move. Because this is becoming impossible.

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6827

1 Q. Did you receive any other message from the Red Cross together with

2 the small document at the bottom of Exhibit DT19. [In English] DT18.


4 A. That was all that was attached to that message. And a second

5 message - just a moment, please - is this one that I received from my

6 brother. That is the one I received while in prison in the hospital. It

7 was given -- brought to me by a delegate of the International Committee of

8 the Red Cross.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I mean, it's two, three sheets of paper. And

10 frankly I don't know the relevance of them, why they are here in the first

11 place. I admitted the first two yesterday.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, I think we're entitled to know what is the

13 suggestion that's being made to this witness. At the moment it is wholly

14 unclear.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: What is -- the only contestation, that there is

16 first is, that he's speaking of prison and Madam Fauveau is speaking of

17 hospital and not prison.

18 MS. KORNER: I thought we'd cleared this up.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that has been cleared up. And then it's a

20 question of dates, as far as I can see it. But how important, I don't

21 know. I mean, it's -- yes.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] What is quite clear is that

23 the witness was in hospital physically. On the other hand, the witness

24 say that is he was a prisoner at the hospital. I'm saying he was not a

25 prisoner. He was not at the prison in Tunjice. He was simply in

Page 6828

1 hospital. I'm going to move on to another subject, but --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I would suggest --

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] But for the transcript, I

4 object to what is being done with these documents. I contest the

5 authenticity of these documents.

6 Your Honour, can we have a pause, please.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What do you need the pause for?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Between your questions and answers in the same

9 language. I'm sorry.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Because the interpretation was as if you were asking

11 me for a pause.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter. I'm sorry.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

14 Do you need these documents, apart from the two we saw yesterday?

15 I suppose there is only one of the other documents that the witness has

16 come up with today that may be relevant, and that's the document that he

17 was given in Banja Luka on the basis of which --

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The visa.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. These he only got when he was in

20 Croatia. That, I understand has some relevance and the rest -- do you

21 want it.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll stick to the document that the witness said

24 is basically a visa that he got while he was still in Banja Luka which

25 enabled him to enter Croatia.

Page 6829

1 I don't know which one it is. I mean, he's the one to indicate it

2 to us.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was certified by the police

4 station in Novska. It says on -- so on it.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Just pick it up -- no, no, the photocopy is what

6 interests us. And the original you can keep.

7 Have you identified the one, Madam Registrar? Shall we mark it

8 DT20, Madam Fauveau?

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's being admitted as DT20. And please let's

11 proceed. You may proceed. Thank you.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. After you left the hospital, you went to Croatia; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. But I spent three days first of all in Caritas in Banja

15 Luka.

16 Q. And when you were in Croatia, you didn't know that proceedings had

17 been instituted against the perpetrator of the crime of which you were a

18 victim.

19 A. That's what I heard.

20 Q. But you would not have returned to Republika Srpska to give testimony in

21 the trial of the perpetrators of the crime of which you were a victim,

22 even if you had been called to; is that correct?

23 A. Well, I didn't want to deliver myself into their hands again.

24 Q. But you were the only survivor of this crime.

25 A. Yes. And I can see that in that document that there were two

Page 6830

1 indicted by the military court in Banja Luka. I'm not mentioned.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: The question of Madam Korner implied that you -- of

3 Madam Fauveau implied that you were summoned -- you were called to give

4 evidence in those proceedings. Were you effectively called, summoned to

5 give evidence? Did you ever receive a summons, a call to give evidence?

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: That was your question.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, that wasn't my

9 question.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Your question was: "But you can't return to

11 Republika Srpska to give evidence in the trial of the perpetrators of the

12 crime of which you were a victim, although you had been called to; is that

13 correct?"

14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. That -- my question

15 would be: [In English] [Previous translation continues] ...

16 MS. KORNER: I was quite surprised by the translation because

17 that's what I understood Madam Fauveau to be saying, "even if you had been

18 called, you wouldn't come back."

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. I wasn't following --

20 MS. KORNER: I saw the translation, so I thoughts I had

21 misunderstood.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I wasn't following the French this time.

23 So you never received the summons. Because yesterday, actually

24 you were putting the argument that he couldn't have, because there were

25 no --

Page 6831

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Exactly.


3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't receive any

4 sort of summons, and I wasn't informed about this, so there's no point to

5 discuss this.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. A few minutes ago you said that even if you had received a

9 summons, you wouldn't have gone to Republika Srpska; is that true?

10 A. As far as I know, it wasn't until 1993 that Republika Srpska was

11 recognised by the International Community. And I had reached Croatia by

12 1992 already. And when I left the prison, the hospital, Mrs. Nada came to

13 me and helped me. She helped get me out, and she told me in these words,

14 "You can't go to Sanski Most."

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So that's the end of the story. Next

16 question.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. As the only survivor, you are in fact the key witness of this

19 event; isn't that correct?

20 A. That's why I'm here before this venerable Court.

21 Q. Do you know - and answer only if you do know - whether the

22 prosecutor of the military tribunal summoned you as a witness? If he had

23 summoned you as a witness, this case would never have taken place in

24 Republika Srpska because you wouldn't have gone there.

25 A. I said that I had never been summoned.

Page 6832

1 Q. I'm not going to insist on this question.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show

3 the witness document Exhibit P811.

4 Q. Is this a record from the investigative judge of the Sanski Most

5 court dated the 3rd of November, 1992?

6 A. This isn't a record. This is a certificate which I submitted --

7 Q. I apologise. I think the exhibit in question is P812.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 12. It was my fault.

9 Q. Is this a report from the investigating judge of the Sanski Most

10 court dated the 3rd of November, 1992?

11 A. This is a report from the Sanski Most health centre which examined

12 corpses. Dr. Prosic -- Ljiljana Prosic, medical specialist, examined

13 the corpses.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We saw that document yesterday.

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You are right. You are quite right. And this report was

17 addressed to the Sanski Most court, to the investigating judge.

18 A. I don't know that. I wasn't in Sanski Most. I was expelled.

19 Q. Doesn't this document mention the person it was sent to on the

20 first page, at the top and to the left?

21 A. It says "the lower court. Investigating judge." But who received

22 it -- there's no stamp, no signature. There's no number saying where it

23 was received.

24 Q. That's also true. But it's a document which belongs to the

25 prosecutor?

Page 6833

1 A. Yes. But this is from the health centre.

2 Q. And in this report -- in this report the death of nine persons was

3 established; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Some of these persons were killed during the same crime in which

6 you were wounded; is that correct?

7 A. They were all killed, but not when I was wounded. But five of

8 them, at that point in time, and four of them when I was getting out.

9 What's important is the crime took place on the same day.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You explained that yesterday.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And for each of these persons, the doctor established the exact

13 cause of death; is that correct?

14 A. I'm going to have a look -- I have to have a look then.

15 That's correct.

16 Q. So the Serbian authorities did establish that this crime took

17 place.

18 A. According to the document, yes, that's correct.

19 Q. Yesterday you said that the Serbs started treating the Croats

20 different as of 1990, when the elections took place. That was on page 29

21 of the LiveNote. Did you mean to say that the relations between the

22 Croats and Serbs deteriorated from 1990 onwards?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor show

25 the witness the statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor in August

Page 6834

1 2000.

2 Q. Sir, could you have a look at page 2 of this statement. It's also

3 page 2 in the English version. It's a sentence in the middle of the

4 page. You said: [In English] "Relationships between the Serbs and the

5 Croats living in Skrljevita were fine until the war."

6 A. By that I meant up to the parliamentary elections. I can't

7 remember every word. I can't memorise every word in my head. You have to

8 understand what I've been through, what I've suffered.

9 Q. [Interpretation] So for you the elections and the war, there's no

10 difference between the two.

11 A. Elections are one thing. War is another thing.

12 Q. But yesterday you said that the relations deteriorated after the

13 elections. And in your statement, you said that they deteriorated just

14 before the war. Between the war and the elections -- one year and a half

15 passed between the war and the elections.

16 A. That's how it was in my village. People in the neighbouring

17 village behaved like that towards us. They didn't respond to the

18 elections. They didn't go to the polling station in Skrljevita. The 26

19 of them -- the 26 Serbs who lived in the village of Skrljevita. The

20 posters bothered them, the posters of the HDZ. They would pull them down,

21 tear them down. Then they would try to find out where the meetings were

22 being held.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not important for us to know. Forget it.

24 Next question, Madam Fauveau.

25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6835

1 Q. These Serbs from Skrljevita who didn't come to vote in the polling

2 station that you went to, where did they go to vote?

3 A. I didn't go to control that.

4 Q. Isn't it possible that these 26 Serbs who lived in a Croatian

5 village, isn't it possible that they didn't go to vote because they were

6 afraid?

7 A. I don't know whether they were afraid, but what is important is

8 the fact that they didn't want to go and vote. What they did before,

9 until the first multi-party elections took place, they would come to the

10 village -- they did this without any problem before. They would come to

11 the village to collect the post, et cetera, and even children would go to

12 Skrljevita to primary school. There were no problems at all.

13 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the Serbs who apparently returned to the

14 front -- from the front in Croatia. You said that they went to the front

15 in Croatia on a voluntary basis.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Wasn't there demobilisation in 1991 -- a mobilisation in 1991?

18 A. Yes, in 1991 there was a mobilisation. I was in Urosevac, in the

19 army at the time.

20 Q. Why do you say that these Serbs left -- went to Croatia on a

21 voluntary basis?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. One moment. There has been --

23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's mobilisation, Your

24 Honour. [In English] It's mobilisation and not demobilisation.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.

Page 6836

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] But I think it was -- I

2 think it was translated correctly in B/C/S.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In that case, since there was a mobilisation, why did you say that

6 the Serbs left for Croatia -- went to Croatia on a voluntary basis?

7 A. When the first mobilisation occurred, the legal mobilisation, then

8 the Croats responded to it too. When it stopped -- but they kept their

9 weapons and their uniforms.

10 Q. My question related to the depart for Croatia.

11 A. I answered that question.

12 Q. So they didn't go there on a voluntary basis. They were

13 mobilised.

14 A. Did I say that there was a demobilisation but that they remained

15 in their uniforms and they kept their uniforms. They kept their weapons.

16 Q. In that case, they were -- they no longer belonged to the army at

17 that point in time.

18 A. Well, what then?

19 Q. If they had been demobilised --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- How can a demobilised person be under the orders of the army?

22 A. So how could it be called an army then.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But this is becoming a cross-debate between

24 the Defence -- counsel and the witness. He has already answered the

25 question. He said that they didn't say there were a demobilisation but

Page 6837

1 that they remained in their uniforms and they kept their uniforms. They

2 kept their weapons. So that's clear enough.

3 And one can argue on the basis of his reply later on, but not in a

4 cross-debate with the witness. So next question.

5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, he didn't

6 say that they were demobilised but he said that the mobilisation had been

7 stopped. But in Serbo-Croat he said that they had been demobilised.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: What did you say? Can you explain to us in plain

9 language what you said. Because if this is a question of interpretation,

10 we have to clarify it.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that there was a

12 demobilisation and that the Serbs kept their uniforms and their weapons.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it. He's answered you. And it's the same

14 answer that he has -- he had given you before.

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] But my question --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But why -- why do you want the witness to

17 tell you what that means or what the consequences -- you argue that when

18 you come to the arguments stage.

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And whether -- whether by being demobilised and you

21 retain your uniform and your weapon, you are still a soldier or not a

22 soldier is a submission -- can become a submission, if you want to resort

23 to that submission. But don't expect -- I mean, if he tells me yes or if

24 he tells me no, that's his own subjective opinion, and it's not -- it's

25 not an expert opinion in any case.

Page 6838

1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You spoke about Serbian checkpoints and you said that certain

3 Serbs who were at these checkpoints were in civilian clothing, whereas

4 others were wearing uniforms; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. And you said that some men who were wearing uniform belonged to

7 the reserve forces. When you say "the reserve force," are you referring

8 to the Territorial Defence?

9 A. The Territorial Defence; it could be. But it depends on how you

10 define that.

11 Q. Yesterday you spoke about weapons which had been collected in your

12 village and taken to Sanski Most. You said that these weapons were taken

13 to Sanski Most to the Crisis Staff where the headquarters of the Serbian

14 armed forces were located; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. When you spoke about the Serbian armed forces, were you thinking

17 of the SOS forces?

18 A. The Serbian ground forces. SOS is the abbreviation for that.

19 Q. Yesterday you were speaking about -- you spoke about a meeting

20 that took place in Kruhari. Bono, Ilija, and Ivica Tutic had been called

21 to this meeting, and Tomo Delic was present there too.

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. And you said that a soldier attended this meeting; is that

24 correct?

25 A. One officer. That's what Bono said. He was at the meeting. This

Page 6839

1 is what I heard from him, from Bono. I didn't see it myself.

2 Q. So you personally didn't see this soldier.

3 A. I wasn't at the meeting, so I couldn't see him in Kruhari.

4 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

6 Mr. Trbojevic.

7 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Trbojevic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stojic, as a person I am really very sorry

10 for what you went through. I have to say that I admire the courage that

11 you have shown from the moment you were wounded until you were taken care

12 of in hospital.

13 A. Thank you for those kind words at least.

14 Q. I think that is only to be expected from any normal human being.

15 A. That is what I think it should be.

16 Q. I only have a few questions for you.

17 On the first page of the statement you gave to the Prosecution,

18 you said -- you spoke about the fact that in those days you followed

19 political events in the country, that you remember the plebiscite at which

20 the Serb people stated their position.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. But that you don't remember too well the contents of the

23 plebiscite.

24 A. Yes, that is right.

25 Q. But that essentially it had to do with whether the Serbs wanted to

Page 6840

1 be a part of a -- some kind of new Yugoslavia with Krajina in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina and/or with the Krajinas in Croatia.

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. If I ask you to read Exhibit DB88 --

5 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] And could the usher please be so

6 kind as to give it to the witness.

7 Q. I hope this document will remind you of that plebiscite. You call

8 it a referendum, but in fact those words are synonymous.

9 This is the Official Gazette, the Serbian Official Gazette. And

10 in the top corner, it says "Decision on the adoption of the report," et

11 cetera, et cetera. If you don't mind, will you please read point 2, "It

12 is hereby established."

13 A. It's not very well legible. It's not very legible.

14 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please give the witness

15 my copy, which has been highlighted, so it's easier to read.

16 A. "It is hereby established that the decision for the Serbian

17 people --"

18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated].

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Just read it for yourself and to yourself. You

21 don't need to read it aloud. And then we'll see what the question is.

22 When you are ready, tell us please.

23 Yes. Your question.

24 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Is it true that it is a decision of the Serbian people in Bosnia

Page 6841

1 and Herzegovina to remain in Yugoslavia?

2 A. This is a decision on a plebiscite on the 9th and 10th of

3 November, due to be held on those days in 1991, and when it was held

4 indeed. And that came into effect -- has come into force.

5 Q. My question is whether it is clear from that text that it is a

6 decision of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina to remain in

7 Yugoslavia.

8 A. Yes, that is right. That is what it says. But on the ballot

9 paper, the question wasn't like that.

10 Q. The question had to be word by word like that.

11 My next question is: At that plebiscite, was it possible for

12 other citizens, that is, members of other ethnic groups in

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina to vote?

14 A. I don't know that. I was in the army at the time.

15 Q. But you said that in the army, they took you to vote.

16 A. Yes, that is right.

17 Q. Do you remember that there were ballot papers in two different

18 colours?

19 A. I don't remember that.

20 Q. Very well. We'll move on to another subject.

21 On page 4 of your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you

22 said that upon your return from the army, you noticed that people of Serb

23 ethnicity were more or less -- were armed. And there's a sentence that I

24 would like to quote. And as for other citizens who received weapons, we

25 know nothing about that." Do you remember saying something like that?

Page 6842

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does it logically follow from that that there were other citizens

3 who were armed as well?

4 A. I don't know that. I'm not sure.

5 Q. You told us that people of Serb ethnicity organised checkpoints.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did citizens of other ethnic groups organise guards or patrols in

8 their villages?

9 A. Not in my village.

10 Q. But did you hear about other villages?

11 A. I did not hear. I didn't go to other villages to check.

12 Q. Very well. But let us go back to the hospital for a moment,

13 please. I think that it is -- that there is no dispute over the fact that

14 at the time you were in hospital, there was a war going on and that the

15 consequences of the war could be felt in the town of Banja Luka as well.

16 Were there days with no electricity?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When there was no -- there were no medical supplies.

19 A. I don't know that.

20 Q. Do you know that HVO soldiers upon withdrawing from Travnik were

21 put up in that same hospital?

22 A. I did not see them.

23 Q. You couldn't see them because you had left already by then, but

24 you probably had read about it in the press. You didn't hear about it?

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 6843

1 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there re-examination?

3 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, Your Honour.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Stojic, I want to make sure that you have been

6 returned all the documents that you showed us. Just make sure first that

7 you have --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I have.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And this brings us to the end of your

10 testimony here. And on behalf of the Chamber and everyone here, may I

11 thank you for having come here to give evidence.

12 You will be escorted out of this courtroom. And it is now

13 possible for you to return to where you wish to go.

14 Once more, I thank you. And you may now leave the room. Thank

15 you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And thank

17 you for giving me this opportunity to speak about the truth that I

18 personally experienced. Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Good afternoon to you. And have a safe

20 journey back home.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The next witness.

23 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Does Your Honour want to

24 start the witness before having a break? Or do you want a break now?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

Page 6844

1 MS. KORNER: Sorry. My microphone.

2 I have to tell Your Honour that was supposed to be one of the

3 shorter witnesses.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 MS. KORNER: I have to tell Your Honour that was supposed to be a

6 short witness.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I know.

8 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour like me to start the witness before

9 the break?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I -- we start now, I think because of logistics I'm

11 being advised yes, we start, and we'll break.

12 MS. KORNER: Can I just tell Your Honours two things: Firstly, we

13 were able to provide the translation of the witness statement into B/C/S

14 by the end of yesterday afternoon, so the defendants both have it. And

15 we've had a translation done of the extra notebook, which I think, Your

16 Honours -- the Defence have got it. We can provide it if necessary to

17 Your Honours.

18 Can I emphasise those the translations were not done by authorised

19 translators. So if there's any problem, they will have to go to

20 authorised translators.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's hope not.

22 MS. KORNER: And finally, can I just mention in relation to the

23 documents that were shown to the witness relating to the non-prosecution,

24 as it were, of --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Kajtez.

Page 6845

1 MS. KORNER: The perpetrator, Kajtez, all those documents were

2 supplied to us by the Republika Srpska authorities, the Banja Luka

3 military court at a -- at a request. Those documents come from a source,

4 which if the Defence want to suggest is not a source they -- on which we

5 can rely, then ...

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We are not contesting those

7 documents. It is the witness who contested them.

8 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Zulic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Again, we don't have any protective measures

10 in place here, Ms. Korner. No?

11 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have any protective measures in place

13 here.

14 MS. KORNER: No, we don't.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon me for asking you, because I just want to

17 make sure because sometimes the situation changes from day to day.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour is quite right.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And before jumping into and mentioning names, I

20 always try to be as cautious as I can.

21 Is there a problem? Do you have a problem?

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Just a

23 small consultation.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Zulic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

Page 6846

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The gentleman standing next to you, who is the court

2 usher, is going to give you a piece of paper on which there is the text of

3 a solemn declaration to say the truth and nothing but the truth, which is

4 required of you under our Rules. So before you start giving evidence,

5 please take that document in your hand and read out that declaration

6 aloud, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

12 I'll explain very briefly what's going to happen. You're here to

13 give evidence. You've been summoned to give evidence by the Prosecution

14 in this case.

15 The three persons you see up here, we form this Trial Chamber. I

16 am the Presiding Judge. My name is Agius. I come from Malta. To my

17 right is Judge Janu from the Czech Republic; so my right, Judge Taya from

18 Japan. We will be the Chamber that will ultimately decide this -- this

19 trial.

20 To your right is the team -- on the front row is the team for the

21 Prosecution. And today the Prosecution will start with a series of

22 questions which they will put to you.

23 When the Prosecution finishes with all the questions that it

24 requires to put to you, you will then be cross-examined by the two

25 teams -- two Defence teams that we have here. The first Defence team that

Page 6847

1 you see in the front row to your left, the first three persons are the

2 Defence team for the accused Radoslav Brdjanin. At the other end of the

3 front row is the -- is counsel for General Talic.

4 The three persons you see in front of you here are the members of

5 the Registry. And you don't need to bother about the rest. No offence

6 meant. It's not important for you to know who the others are. I mean,

7 they are members of my legal team. You know, so it's not -- they have got

8 nothing as such to do with the running of the case -- of the proceedings

9 today.

10 Who is going to cross-examine the witness?

11 MS. KORNER: Well, I hope I'm not going to cross-examine my own

12 witness. But I'm calling --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is going to examine?

14 MS. KORNER: I am, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You are.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Ms. Korner from the -- for the Prosecution

18 will be putting some questions to you. Thank you.

19 I am afraid I don't think we will finish today, which means that

20 you will have to return to The Hague to continue your evidence later on.

21 I suppose this has been explained to him. I suppose this has been

22 explained to you, and I'm sure you understand.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So Ms. Korner, the witness is in your hands.

25 Examined by Ms. Korner:

Page 6848

1 Q. [Microphone not activated] Mr. Zulic, is your name --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.


4 Q. Mr. Zulic, is your name Ahmet Zulic?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. And were you born on the 5th of June, 1947 in Podbrijezje?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. Which is in the Sanski Most municipality.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And are you by ethnicity and religion a Muslim, now called

11 Bosniak?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I'd like you first of all, if I may, to look at a map which is

14 7. -- 757.3. And I'm going to ask it to be put on the ELMO.

15 MS. KORNER: I'm going to give the witness my copy, because I've

16 highlighted the village. I think one needs to go on the ELMO. He needs

17 to have it himself.

18 All right. I'm sorry, usher, you're quite right. You take my

19 copy.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher.

21 MS. KORNER: You take my copy. It's easier to see. And if you

22 just put it on the ELMO and show it to the witness. You'll see it's

23 marked there.

24 Q. All right. Mr. Zulic, could you just look there. And you'll be

25 just -- and just indicate where I have marked just below -- we can see --

Page 6849

1 it's actually -- where we see the town of Sanski Most, can we see the

2 village in which you were born just to the left and marked, and where you

3 lived in fact?

4 A. Could I please approach the map.

5 Q. That's where --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness points at a

7 village -- at a spot on the map which corresponds to the name

8 Podbrijezje.

9 MS. KORNER: I'm glad that Your Honour has the same difficulty I

10 do.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's worse. I'm even worse.

12 MS. KORNER: Some I can do. But ones with "J's" in the middle, I

13 can't.

14 Yes, thank you very much.

15 Q. And just above that -- because we're going to refer to that later,

16 Mr. Zulic -- is there a place called Podlug?

17 A. Yes. I showed it.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness points at the

19 mentioned village on the map immediately on -- above the previous name.

20 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Yes, you can take the map

21 away.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Zulic.

23 Now, Mr. Zulic, before we come to what actually happened to you in

24 1992, can we just deal with various statements and documents. In April of

25 2000, were you seen by an investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor?

Page 6850

1 A. Could you repeat the year, please.

2 Q. April of 2000 were you seen by an investigator?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Who spoke to you and recorded what you said. But at that stage

5 you didn't sign a statement.

6 A. I did not.

7 Q. And were you then seen on a second occasion by another

8 investigator? That was in February of 2001.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And at that stage, did you provide to that investigator copies of

11 effectively a diary that you had made after your release from Manjaca?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And later that year, last year in June, did the investigator

14 return and at that stage was a signed statement taken from you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In addition, yesterday did you provide to the Office of the

17 Prosecutor a -- a sort of little notebook on which you had written notes

18 whilst you were in Manjaca?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you came to this Tribunal - I can't remember when it was now;

21 I think on Monday, but - did you have a chance to read through a copy of

22 the statement that you made to the investigator which had been translated

23 into your own language, the Bosnian language?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you then make some minor corrections, I think, to

Page 6851

1 spellings of names and some other words which had -- the translation

2 wasn't altogether correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, can I just ask you, please, about the diary that you wrote

5 after your release from Manjaca. I think it's right -- have you got with

6 you the original, which is a set of three notebooks?

7 A. I didn't bring it just now, but it's at the hotel. I didn't

8 believe it was necessary now.

9 Q. Okay.

10 MS. KORNER: It may not, Your Honour.

11 Q. But you have them available and you can make them available on the

12 next occasion you come here; is that correct?

13 A. If necessary, you can send someone to pick up the key of my room

14 and to bring it.

15 Q. Don't worry, Mr. Zulic.

16 Now, can you just tell the Court when did you actually write the

17 account of the events that are contained in those exercise books.

18 A. After Christmas in 1992 until the 15th or 20th of January, 1993.

19 Q. And what made you decide to write this account of the events that

20 happened to you?

21 A. Just so that it would be never forgotten.

22 Q. Did you write your account of events at anybody else's

23 suggestion?

24 A. On my own.

25 Q. Did anybody ask you to write down what had happened to you?

Page 6852

1 A. Not to write down, but they did ask me for a statement and I

2 wouldn't give it to them.

3 Q. And who was it who asked you for a statement?

4 A. Mr. Adil Draganovic did.

5 Q. And you said that you wouldn't give a statement to Judge

6 Draganovic. Why was that?

7 A. Because I was afraid. My father and mother remained in Bosnia;

8 also two brothers, their wives and children. And I was afraid of any

9 publication. Because if that were to be learnt, they would certainly be

10 killed.

11 Q. And was this the situation, that you and Judge Draganovic had been

12 released from Manjaca together?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that you were housed in the same barracks in Germany for a

15 period of a month or so before you moved on?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you wrote your account of the events that you describe --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. [Microphone not activated] But I have a sign

19 an order before 4.00 --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The legal assistants --

22 MS. KORNER: I see. I can just finish this question, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm sorry to interrupt you like that, but I

24 know that the Registry closes at 4.00.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes.

Page 6853

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And so I've only got five minutes.

2 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, just one simple question.

3 Q. When you wrote the account of events, Mr. Zulic, in your

4 notebooks, were those events still fresh in your memory?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

7 We'll have a 30-minute break, and then we'll continue.

8 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 4.29 p.m.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Questions should be --

11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour may have seen, I got a message during

12 the course of cross-examination. I just wish I'd seen it.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I say this is the

14 first --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the first World Cup that I'm missing.


18 Q. Mr. Zulic, just one last question about the diary. Until you

19 provided a copy of it to the investigator, had you shown that diary to

20 anyone else?

21 A. To no one, apart from my family, my son, my wife. They knew about

22 it.

23 Q. Well, when we have a look at it, we'll see what you wrote on the

24 front cover.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say that I'm going to ask, when we

Page 6854

1 get to the point, that the witness be given the photocopies -- I'm going

2 to ask it be made an exhibit and then if necessary, I'm going to ask him

3 to refresh his memory from what he wrote, nearer the time.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any objections? Okay.


6 Q. And sir, I think it -- Mr. Zulic, I think it's right that you were

7 born and raised and have spent most of your life within the municipality

8 of Sanski Most.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Other than when you did your military service.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you work until 1992 for a coal mining firm in a place called

13 Dosci?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. And were you in fact by may -- in May of 1992 the manager of

16 production?

17 A. Not the manager, but I was a supervisor -- the director

18 supervisor. I supervised the shifts in the pit.

19 Q. All right. Now, I don't think that you were ever a member of a

20 political party of any kind.

21 A. Never.

22 Q. And took no interest in politics.

23 A. Neither before nor today.

24 Q. However, in -- you were aware, were you not, that in 19 -- after

25 the 1990 elections, the president of the municipal assembly was a man --

Page 6855

1 or became a man named Nedeljko Rasula?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. And I think you knew Rasula because he was your teacher, both in

4 elementary and high school.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, I want to come directly, please, to the events of 1991 -- the

7 end of 1991 and 1992. By the end of 1991, were checkpoints appearing in

8 the municipality of Sanski Most?

9 A. Yes, they were.

10 Q. And I think towards the -- after -- I'm sorry. In the period of

11 1991, every person of all ethnicities were stopped. But did that change

12 in 1992?

13 A. In April, yes, it did, in my opinion.

14 Q. And change was what?

15 A. Well, among those police, there were no longer -- it was the

16 military police, and there were no longer Muslims among them. And if they

17 stopped Serbs, they wouldn't check them; they would just let them go. But

18 they would check the Muslims. They would check their cars. And that

19 happened to me a few times.

20 Q. Now, did you notice that appearing in 1992 were different kinds of

21 military units?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. And what kind of units were -- began to appear in the Sanski Most

24 area?

25 A. There was the JNA, some "White Eagles," Seselj's men, the SOS --

Page 6856

1 that must have been the Serbian armed forces -- and some other

2 paramilitary formations, private military in fact, which I had never seen

3 before. I really haven't.

4 Q. You've described some as the White Eagles, Seselj's men. How did

5 you know these people were called the White Eagles and were Seselj's men?

6 A. Because they would say so publicly. That was said publicly. They

7 had a white band here. I can't remember exactly whether it was on the --

8 on their left or right arm. They had cockades here.

9 Q. And the SOS, did you know who was the leader of the SOS?

10 A. At the time, they said it was Njunja and Medeni. Dusan Saovic,

11 that's the man. And Medeni, I really don't know his real name.

12 Q. Now, do you remember the occasion when the municipal building was

13 attacked in Sanski Most?

14 A. At the moment, I can't remember the date. I have it written down

15 somewhere. But I know it was sometime in May.

16 Q. All right. Don't worry about the date. We've got documents that

17 is show us the date.

18 And do you remember that what was called a War Presidency or

19 Crisis Staff was set up in the municipality?

20 A. The Crisis Staff was formed in April. It had already been formed

21 then.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to deal with the matter of weapons. Did

23 you, at some stage, in 1992, purchase a weapon?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Roughly when was that?

Page 6857

1 A. I think it was in March. I haven't got the dates in front of me,

2 but it was in 1992 before April.

3 Q. And how did you come -- well, first of all, from whom did you

4 purchase the weapon?

5 A. From a Serbian soldier. I paid for it, purchased it.

6 Q. And what sort of weapon was it?

7 A. It was a light machine-gun with 20 bullets.

8 Q. And what was the reason that you decided to buy a weapon?

9 A. Well, you could see that there was a war. It was necessary to

10 protect one's family.

11 Q. For how long did you keep that weapon?

12 A. Until about May 1992.

13 Q. And what -- and what did you do with it in May of 1992?

14 A. I threw it into a well.

15 Q. And why did you do that?

16 A. Well, you can't do anything with 20 bullets, even if you were to

17 try and protect your family.

18 Q. Was that before or after there had been announcement that all

19 weapons were to be handed in to the authorities?

20 A. That was before.

21 Q. Now, do you recall if announcements over the radio ordering people

22 to hand in their weapons?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And when that announcement was made, did the people who lived in

25 your village surrender their weapons?

Page 6858

1 A. Yes, they did. The ones that they owned privately, the pistols

2 and the hunting rifles, and other weapons that had been obtained.

3 Q. And I should have asked you this earlier. Roughly how big was

4 your village? How many families?

5 A. About 380 houses. That's the number.

6 Q. And how were the weapons handed in? Did somebody collect them for

7 the whole village, or did people hand them in individually?

8 A. No. They came to the village. They said that they would collect

9 it in front of the centre. Dragan Acic came and another two soldiers

10 who collected those weapons, and everything was surrendered.

11 Q. And who was Dragan Acic?

12 A. He's a citizen from Sanski Most. He was wearing a military

13 uniform. He was wearing a JNA uniform. He was a reserve captain, a

14 sergeant or a captain, something like that.

15 Q. And you say that everything was surrendered. So were there any

16 weapons left in your village?

17 A. Well, maybe some were left. I don't know really.

18 Q. Now, before the weapons were handed in, were there any patrols

19 being conducted by the Muslim population in the village?

20 A. Yes, there were.

21 Q. And was the whole village Muslim, or was it ethnically mixed?

22 A. The whole village was Muslim.

23 Q. What was the reason that patrols were being carried out?

24 A. I have to explain that. The people from Podlug, the Serbs,

25 they came, and they said that Muslims would be patrolling independently

Page 6859

1 and the Serbs independently, so as to avoid extremists coming in, being

2 inserted.

3 Q. So the village of Podlug, which we looked at the map earlier --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner.

5 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm just wondering if the witness

7 would be more comfortable if he could move his chair a little forward.

8 Because I think that he's leaning forward every time he speaks and I think

9 sometimes he doesn't quite get forward and I don't think he's being heard

10 quite as well as he would otherwise be. Just a helpful suggestion.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If you move further near the microphone, it

12 would be better.

13 Yes, Ms. Korner.

14 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

15 Q. Sir, yes. We were just asking -- the village of Podlug which we

16 looked at, was that a Serb village entirely?

17 A. Yes. There were three Muslim houses in that village.

18 Q. And you say that the villagers from there came to your village and

19 said that there should be separate patrols, Serb patrols for Podlug and

20 Muslim for your village; is that right?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. After you'd had to surrender your weapons - you, the Muslims - did

23 you conduct any further patrols?

24 A. With what and how?

25 Q. Yes, quite. So is the answer no?

Page 6860

1 A. No.

2 Q. What about the Serbs in Podlug? Did they surrender their weapons?

3 A. No, they didn't.

4 Q. And did they continue with the patrols?

5 A. Yes, they did.

6 Q. Now, you told us about -- that you had this job at the mining

7 company. Were you able to keep your job?

8 A. No, I wasn't.

9 Q. What happened to you, in respect of your employment?

10 A. We went to work. And after we had done a shift, we went out. The

11 bus didn't come to get us, and we were told by the people at the door that

12 we had to leave the company. And I would like to emphasise that up until

13 then only Muslims worked there from March up until the middle of April. I

14 have that written down in my diary. Only Muslims worked there, whereas

15 the Serbs had already been deployed, sent off to certain units.

16 Q. So at what stage were you told -- can you remember roughly the

17 date when you were told that you had to leave the company?

18 A. It was in May.

19 Q. Now --

20 A. At the beginning of May.

21 Q. Now, I want to come to the events of late May of 1992. Did you

22 hear announcements on the radio talking about what were called "Green

23 Berets"?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And were people named whom you knew?

Page 6861

1 A. The people whom I knew were mentioned -- they were told to come,

2 to surrender to the Serbian people. They were told that they were

3 extremists, because the Green Berets, as they call them, they're all over

4 the place.

5 Q. And --

6 A. They said.

7 Q. And what did you understand was being referred to by the term

8 "Green Berets"?

9 A. Believe me, at the time I didn't -- and even today I don't know if

10 those are those green caps. But at the time I didn't see anything like

11 that.

12 Q. Green caps. But people wore green caps. But who were these

13 people who wore green caps supposed to be?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: You can put a direct question, Ms. Korner. Straight

15 away. Go straight to it.

16 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, there may be some dispute about

17 this. But in any event if Your Honour tells me I can, I will.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.


20 Q. Did you understand they were referring to armed Muslim males?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, were you ever aware of any armed Muslim forces in Sanski Most

23 itself?

24 A. No, I wasn't.

25 Q. In your own village?

Page 6862

1 A. No.

2 Q. Or any other Muslim areas in which you travelled?

3 A. At that point in time, no. But later on I heard that that was in

4 Vrhpolje, somewhere up there.

5 Q. And that's -- I'm dealing now with the announcement on the radio.

6 And was that announcement on the 26th of May of 1992 or thereabouts?

7 A. Thereabouts, yes.

8 Q. Now, after that announcement when people were named, was there any

9 outbreak of firing or any kind of warfare?

10 A. Not in my village. In Vrhpolje, I heard that there was fighting.

11 Q. Now, I want to ask you about the area of Sanski Most called

12 Mahala. Were you familiar with that area?

13 A. Yes, I was very familiar with it.

14 Q. Can you tell us what happened to the people who lived in Mahala.

15 A. They were called over the announcement. They were asked to leave

16 their houses. Some of them were asked to go to the village Krkojevci, to

17 the stadium, and others were asked to go to the training ground where

18 there were driving courses so that the Serbian forces could deal with the

19 Green Berets. And they did that.

20 Q. Okay. So this is what was being said. "They were asked to leave

21 their houses, and some of them were asked to go to a village called

22 Krkojevci, to a stadium, others to the training ground."

23 A. To the stadium in the village of Krkojevci and above Muhici to the

24 training ground.

25 Q. And you said "so that the Serbian forces could deal with the Green

Page 6863

1 Berets." Is that what they were saying on the radio?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'm sorry. Could we -- could you just have a look, again, please

4 at the Map.

5 MS. KORNER: If we can put that on the ELMO, and if we put my

6 marked copy again.

7 Yes. If you could move the map up the screen, please. Yes. Yes,

8 that's it. Fine. Stop. Thank you.

9 Q. Is that the village of Krkojevci, which you're referring to?

10 A. This is the village of Krkojevci.

11 Q. Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record the witness points at the name

13 "Krkojevci" on the map.

14 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

15 Yes, thank you. You can take the map back again. Thank you.

16 Q. Now, having heard this announcement, did the people in the area of

17 Mahala obey it?

18 A. They went out. Some of them went to Krkojevci and the others went

19 to the training ground.

20 Q. How do you know that's what they did?

21 A. Because later on the refugees from Mahala and Muhici went up

22 there, came there, and they told us where they had been, two or three days

23 later.

24 Q. They came to your village.

25 A. That's right.

Page 6864

1 Q. Now, did you see what happened to Mahala?

2 A. After the people had been forced out, I saw that houses had been

3 destroyed. I saw that Mahala was being shelled. I saw smoke. I saw that

4 there were houses burning, that they had been destroyed. We saw that

5 because we were on an elevation.

6 Q. Can we take this in stages. What was the first thing you actually

7 saw happening? We're going to look at a film in a moment, but what was

8 the first thing you saw happening?

9 A. We heard shooting. That's the first thing.

10 Q. And what kind of shooting? Do you mean rifles or other guns?

11 A. Mortars. I think they were mortars. But there was shelling.

12 Q. And once you heard what was happening, did you go and have a

13 look?

14 A. No one could do that. No one dared do that.

15 Q. No. I'm sorry. I don't mean go into Mahala. But could you see

16 where the firing was coming from?

17 A. It was very clear. It was quite possible to see where the firing

18 came from. From the Djedovaca hill, from the garbage dump, and from the

19 direction of Caplje. But a little below Caplje. It could be seen

20 quite clearly. You could see the shells flying quite clearly. You would

21 hear the sound it made. This was a very loud noise.

22 Q. Now, what was the result that you could see of the shelling?

23 A. I think that some houses started burning immediately.

24 Q. Could you see the mosque from your position?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6865

1 Q. Could you see what was happening to the mosque?

2 A. Not at that point in time.

3 Q. Whilst you were watching, did you see any kind of people in Mahala

4 returning fire, any kind of resistance to what was happening?

5 A. There was no resistance. I know that no one fired a shot.

6 Q. Were there people still in Mahala at the time of the shelling?

7 A. Earlier on I said that they were all taken to the training ground

8 and to the stadium in Krkojevci.

9 Q. Yes. I understand that. But did you discover whether or not at

10 the time of the shelling anybody had been left in the village?

11 A. If anyone remained in the village, then that was someone who was

12 immobile, who couldn't move, sick people, or someone who had hidden in

13 that person's house, in the cellar.

14 Q. I think I should -- but do you know whether that happened or not?

15 If you don't know, say so.

16 A. I don't know whether people returned, fired. But I know the

17 people remained in Mahala. Later on they were found and had been killed.

18 These were -- they were mainly women. In my diary it says who these women

19 were. There were three -- three men -- three or four men. In the house

20 of Semir Hegic [phoen], in the cellar two brothers Vojnikovic were killed.

21 Ivo Uzar, Nafira, who worked in the book shop --

22 Q. You needn't bother to list everybody, because, as you say, you've

23 listed the names in your diary.

24 Now, did -- did you yourself go to Mahala after the shelling had

25 finished?

Page 6866

1 A. No.

2 Q. After the shelling had finished, did anybody go into the village?

3 A. Women went back, but only after they had taken them to the school

4 and then separated the men to the sports hall and then they sent the women

5 to us in Podbrijezje, the children to Stari Majdan, and then women three

6 days later went to Mahala.

7 Q. What happened to property that hadn't been damaged by the shelling

8 for one reason or another?

9 A. It was looted and taken away, simply, because the women that went

10 back there to get their clothes to change into or to bring flour or

11 something like that mainly didn't find anything there. I had 18 refugees

12 in my home.

13 Q. And were the houses after they'd been looted, were they left, or

14 did something happen to them?

15 A. No. Afterwards houses were burning every day, two, three, or

16 four. This could be seen. One could see the smoke when the houses went

17 up in flames.

18 Q. Now, did your mother-in-law in fact live in the Mahala area?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what happened to her?

21 A. She was expelled too, and she came to my place. She was first

22 expelled to Krkojevci, the stadium there. And then in front of the

23 Narodni Front School, when they killed my father-in-law. Then she managed

24 to reach my house. My father-in-law at the time was 67 years old.

25 Q. And who was responsible for killing your father-in-law?

Page 6867

1 A. The Serbs.

2 Q. Was he the only one killed, or were others killed?

3 A. I just said a moment ago all the people who had been killed. But

4 he was immobile; he couldn't move. May I correct myself. He wasn't

5 killed. He was burnt in his house. He was bedridden. Sorry.

6 Q. All right. In 1996, after your return to Sanski Most, did you go

7 and film the area of Mahala as it was in 1996?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. We're going to -- I'm going to ask you to look at the film in a

10 moment. But by that stage had some rebuilding already started?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So I'm going to ask that that be played.

13 But I think in addition, have you filmed the view that you had

14 over your village of Mahala, which was filmed when the investigator was

15 with you?

16 A. Yes. Yes. I filmed it to show that I was able to see the burning

17 of houses and the shelling that -- from where I stood.

18 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, we've given the video to the

19 audiovisual unit. It hasn't got an exhibit number yet. So the next one

20 up will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 821. So I wonder if that could be

21 played.

22 Q. And, sir, if there's anything you want to comment on, if you could

23 just say "stop" loudly, then the film will stop playing.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MS. KORNER: No. I'm sorry. It's the wrong video. It's the

Page 6868

1 other video that the visual -- audiovisual unit was given.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. Wind back, please, a little.

4 Here you can see a house that before the war --

5 Q. Stop.

6 A. -- was a coffee bar.

7 Q. If you stop for a moment. You can't indicate with the pointer to

8 that screen. If you can just describe -- you say there was a coffee bar

9 where? To the left or the right of the screen as we look at it?

10 A. To the right, as I see it. This was a coffee bar before the war.

11 And to the left was the market.

12 Q. Okay. Can we see anywhere the mosque or what was left of the

13 mosque?

14 A. The mosques can't be seen. It was on the left. Behind the market

15 there's a street there. Only this coffee bar was all in marble before the

16 war.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MS. KORNER: If we could continue playing.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. KORNER: If we could just pause the camera there for a

21 moment. It's rather difficult for pausing it.

22 Q. But what are we looking at there on the walls of the house?

23 A. You can see the scars left by shells, the damage left by shells.

24 MS. KORNER: Could we move on.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 6869


2 Q. And what are we looking at here?

3 A. It is just here, behind this is the exercise ground that I

4 referred to, the exercise area. And here you can see a part of the Serb

5 area.

6 MS. KORNER: Now can we pause the film for a moment. Sorry.

7 Q. Now, are we now looking at the view you had of Mahala from where

8 you lived?

9 A. Yes, precisely so. If you go back a little, you can see the

10 mosque very well too.

11 MS. KORNER: Okay. If we could just run the -- run the film back

12 for a moment.

13 [Videotape played]

14 A. This is the newly built mosque that we see.

15 Q. Yeah. It is not very clear on the screen, but we can see the

16 two -- I'm not very sure what the name is?

17 A. Minarets.

18 Q. Okay. And that's the newly built one, is it?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. KORNER: Okay. If we could just move on.

21 Q. And if you could just indicate the hills from where the firing was

22 coming when you see it.

23 [Videotape played]

24 A. You can't see it too well, but you will see a hill over here to --

25 over there called Djedovaca, above the houses here.

Page 6870

1 MS. KORNER: I don't -- Your Honour, I've seen this film before,

2 and it wasn't as bad as this. I'm just wondering whether the colour --

3 whether one can adjust the colour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] But I'm not quite sure.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop.


7 Q. What are we looking at there?

8 A. Now you can see clearly the Djedovaca hill. I can tell you this

9 peak here to the left is what is known as Smedlista [phoen], and over

10 there is the hill called Djedovaca.

11 Q. All right. Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER: I think -- well, let's just run the film on. I think

13 that's nearly it though. Could we just run the film and see if that's the

14 end.

15 [Videotape played]

16 A. Over there to the left you can see a hill called Caplje, from

17 where they were also firing.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much. That's it.

19 Q. Now, what were the next things that happened before your arrest?

20 Were any other areas attacked?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Which areas? And if you need your diary to assist you, sir, at

23 this stage, you can have it. Would you prefer to have it, or can you

24 remember without?

25 A. Perhaps I will be more precise if I have the diary as to which

Page 6871

1 village came when.

2 Q. Could I -- could you be hand --

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that the photocopy be

4 made of the exhibit so that he can retain the original.

5 Q. I'm going to ask that you get part 1 of your diary.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'll ask they all be exhibited as one

7 single exhibit. But because there are three parts of it, three books, if

8 we could have the first book as Exhibit -- where are we? -- 822.1.

9 And --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand that the original is in your possession

11 and readily available --

12 MS. KORNER: It's in the possession of the witness. But he'll

13 bring it back next time he comes to court.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's very important.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Because at any time we may need to refer to it.

17 MS. KORNER: Yes, I agree.

18 Q. I'd just like you to be handed also this document, which is a

19 photocopy of the front of the first exercise book.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's the one I handed out yesterday.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Zulic, is that a photocopy of the cover of the first

22 exercise book?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. And can you just read out to us what you wrote there.

25 A. "Just so that our grandchildren do not forget."

Page 6872

1 Q. And I should ask you this, Mr. Zulic, or I should have asked you

2 earlier. When you were writing the diary, did you write down everything

3 in it that happened to you or other people?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And why not?

6 A. First of all, if I were to bring down everything, I was afraid I

7 might poison the people for whom this was written.

8 Q. [Microphone not activated] And --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please.

10 Q. And who were you afraid that it might poison? Who were the people

11 that you wrote it for?

12 A. For my grandchildren.

13 Q. Now, if you find the part, sir -- in the first part of your diary

14 where -- is that the first --

15 A. No. I have book 3. That's why I'm looking.

16 Q. Yes. Okay. We'll give you --

17 MS. KORNER: It's that one.

18 Q. Is that the first part of your diary?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. If you find the page -- well, first of all -- I'm sorry. Before

21 we deal with the Sanski Most -- were you able to see the attack that took

22 place on Kozarac?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right. Then perhaps you'd like to find the page in your

25 diary - and I can't help you, I'm afraid - where you dealt with Hrustovo

Page 6873

1 and Vrhpolje.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's page 3 of the translation.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

4 MS. KORNER: I don't know if any of the Defence could assist with

5 where that passage is in the original to help the witness, so that we

6 can ...

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is page 6.

8 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Thank you,

10 Madam Fauveau.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me. I'm sorry.

12 Page 7.


14 Q. Have you found the passage, sir, where you deal with -- perhaps it

15 would be quicker if I --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I can indicate to him.

17 Sir, you have the diary, the photocopies. And you see that each

18 page has a number, eight digits.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, starting from the first one, you turn six pages

21 and you come to the seventh page, which is 02005348. Go to the bottom of

22 the page, and go up nine lines there from there. The line starts with

23 [B/C/S spoken] Or something like that.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On my page 6, I can't --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Your page 7 you have to go to. That's why I said

Page 6874

1 you start with the first one, you turn six pages, and you come to page 7.

2 And nine lines from the bottom.


4 Q. Have you found that, Mr. Zulic?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. I want to deal with this quite quickly. You record there the

7 attack on Hrustovo and Vrhpolje where more than 300 civilians were

8 killed. Were you able to see the attack, or did you hear about it

9 afterwards?

10 A. I heard of this attack, because a woman came -- I think I noted

11 that down somewhere.

12 Q. Yes, you did.

13 A. A woman came who --

14 Q. Don't --

15 A. -- who said -- she came to the yard of my neighbour Ibro's house,

16 and he said -- and she said that in one garage --

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. -- 18 or 20 people had been killed, that on the bridge about 30

19 adult males had been executed, and that they continued executing in

20 Vrhpolje, Hrustovo.

21 Q. Sir, can I explain. We're going to hear from people who were

22 actually present at these incidents. All I want to establish is how you

23 found out about them. So somebody came and spoke to your neighbour. Were

24 you present when that happened?

25 A. This woman told me who survived, in that garage. No.

Page 6875

1 Q. I understand, sir. Don't worry. We actually are going to be

2 hearing about that.

3 But were you present when the woman who came from that area told

4 your neighbour, or was it your neighbour who told you?

5 A. I was present. I was sitting there. She was sleeping in my

6 house. Anyway, I was captured and taken away, and she stayed behind in my

7 house.

8 Q. Now, the refugees from Mahala who had been living in your house,

9 what happened to them?

10 A. They tried to be transported to Jajce, the first time. The police

11 went, the Serb police, with a loudspeaker in their hand, saying that all

12 refugees should gather in Podbrijezje near the cultural centre and that

13 they would go to Jajce.

14 Q. And were they in fact taken to Jajce?

15 A. They were taken and brought back again.

16 Q. And what happened -- I want to jump ahead. What happened to them

17 eventually?

18 A. When they were brought back, some to Podbrijezje and some to Stari

19 Majdan. After three days, there was another announcement that the

20 refugees should gather and that they would be taken to Velika Kladusa.

21 However, the refugees realised by now that they wanted to expel them,

22 force them out of their houses, so they didn't want to go. However, they

23 organised buses and the army, and the army or soldiers went from one house

24 to the next searching the house, and wherever they found refugees in the

25 house they would force them out. And those who couldn't fit into the

Page 6876

1 buses were chased across the river to Krings Company, and new buses came

2 and they were put on those buses and driven off in the direction of

3 Kladusa.

4 Q. And do you know what happened to these people eventually, where

5 they went to?

6 A. They arrived in Kladusa.

7 Q. And that's as much as you know.

8 A. That's all I know.

9 Q. Now, you've told us that it was Serb -- it was the army or

10 soldiers who came and took these people from their houses, put them onto

11 buses. Who do you mean by "the army"?

12 A. I mean those who had a five-coronet star here.

13 Q. Were they regular soldiers as far as you could tell or irregular?

14 A. As far as I could tell, they were regular soldiers, but

15 reservists. These were not young men but mostly older men. You know,

16 between 35 and 40, something like that.

17 Q. And do you know which unit of the regular army was operating in

18 your area -- in that area?

19 A. The 6th Krajina Brigade. At least that is how they called it.

20 Q. Now, can we just deal, please, with the attacks. And if we just

21 deal with where they happened. Was there an attack on a village called

22 Cirkici?

23 A. Cirkici, yes.

24 Q. And was that an entirely Muslim village again?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6877

1 Q. And was there then an attack on Skucani Vakuf?

2 A. Skucani Vakuf.

3 Q. And was there then shelling of Trnovo?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, were you able -- Trnovo was in fact a village that was not

6 that far away from you, wasn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you able to see that attack?

9 A. Yes, I was. I could see the shells coming across the hill and

10 falling into Trnovo.

11 Q. And where was the shelling coming from?

12 A. From Djedovaca, from the garbage dump.

13 Q. And anywhere else that you could see?

14 A. Yes. From Podlug, from the stadium there. There was also a Fap

15 lorry, which had been converted, and they had mounted what they called a

16 two-barreled anti-aircraft gun on it.

17 Q. Now, you can leave the diary for a moment, sir, and we'll come

18 back to it if necessary.

19 During these attacks, from what you saw was there any response

20 from the inhabitants of the village, any firing back?

21 A. They had nothing with which to fire back.

22 Q. And why was that?

23 A. Well, as they had surrendered their weapons.

24 Q. Your village, did anything happen to that before your arrest?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6878

1 Q. And what happened to your village?

2 A. There was shelling. One shell fell in the -- in my father's

3 garden, and the second shell about 300 metres further away in the garden

4 of a neighbour of ours -- of mine. The one that fell in my father's

5 garden didn't explode, and the one that fell further up did explode. And

6 then we were told over the radio that we would be shelled.

7 Q. Was there concentrated shelling on your village - in other words,

8 more than one or two - before your arrest?

9 A. No, there wasn't. No.

10 Q. I'm going to deal with your arrest in a moment, but was there --

11 after your arrest, was there any concentrated shelling on the village, or

12 did it remain?

13 A. I heard that there was concentrated shelling on our village about

14 one month later. This is what I was told by my wife and by my children.

15 Q. All right. I want to now deal with your arrest, please. Did that

16 take place on the 18th of June?

17 A. Yes, it did.

18 Q. And did some police officers -- armed police officers arrive at

19 your home?

20 A. Yes, they did.

21 Q. Were there four of them in all?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you know them all as local Serbs?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And you recorded their names. Was there somebody called Gojko

Page 6879

1 Macura?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And Predrag Maric?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Miroslav Mauna?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the fourth man, I think who was also the driver, was he called

8 Dosenovic? Maybe you'd better say it.

9 A. Dosenovic.

10 Q. Did they tell you that you were going to be taken for

11 interrogation?

12 A. They told me that I should go and give a statement, and they asked

13 me to give them weapons. They were looking for bomb, for grenades, for a

14 sniper rifle, for a light machine-gun. They were looking for mortars.

15 Q. Did they search your house?

16 A. Not at all.

17 Q. So they told you that you were going to have a give a statement,

18 and they asked you to give them weapons. Did you tell them --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did you tell them?

21 A. I told them that I didn't have any, and I told them I couldn't

22 give them something that I didn't have. I told them that I had thrown

23 something into a well and that they should go and have a look and see that

24 it couldn't be taken out again.

25 Q. Now, having -- well, I'm sorry, having told them that, what was

Page 6880

1 their reaction?

2 A. They started hitting me, and they said, "You're going to come with

3 us and you're going to give a statement."

4 Q. And where did they take you?

5 A. They took me to Betonirka.

6 Q. And what was -- did you know what Betonirka was?

7 A. I knew that it was a company which produced concrete products.

8 Q. Once you got to Betonirka, what happened to your possessions?

9 A. They started provoking my wife. Immediately they started phoning

10 her. And this lasted I don't know for how long. But according to what my

11 wife told me, it occurred almost every evening.

12 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. It's my fault, sir. What happened to your

13 personal property, what you had on you, once you got to the garage -- once

14 you got to the Betonirka?

15 A. Everything was taken from me, money, my watch, my driving licence,

16 my identity card. Everything was taken from me. And some other papers

17 that I had in my wallet.

18 Q. And was that taken from you by the people who had arrested you or

19 by another policeman, or another person?

20 A. Other people.

21 Q. The people who arrested you, you say were policemen. When you got

22 to Betonirka, were the people you were dealing with there policemen?

23 A. I don't know what they were, but they weren't wearing a regular

24 civilian police uniform, as far as I could see.

25 Q. What were they wearing?

Page 6881

1 A. One of them was wearing an officer's uniform, an olive-drab

2 uniform. Some of them were also wearing camouflage uniforms. And one or

3 two of them were wearing those police uniforms.

4 Q. Now, once you'd had your property removed from you, were you taken

5 to what used to be the garages of the factory?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. And were you placed into one of the garages?

8 A. Yes, in garage number 1, as they call it.

9 Q. I'd like you to -- for a moment to be shown a plan with the

10 photographs, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit P757.1.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Now, Ms. Korner, this

12 is --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I pushed the wrong button.

15 Ms. Korner, this document is already exhibited.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: For the future, always have available -- when you

18 come forward with documents like the present with, with a map in the

19 middle, flanked on the sides with photos -- one which does not indicate

20 beneath each of the photos what that photo represents.

21 MS. KORNER: You --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We leave it -- we leave it -- I have no qualms with

23 having myself and the Defence with a map with the photos and the

24 indication of what each photo represents. But I would rather prefer that

25 the witness hasn't got any indications, and then he is asked to confirm

Page 6882

1 whether the indication which is on the map is the right one or not. More

2 or less this is to achieve a certain uniformity. And I'm sure you

3 understand me. But I do personally also agree that ideally this is how it

4 should be.

5 Today we can go ahead with the document that we have, and I am

6 pretty sure that what you are going to ask the witness is not going to be

7 that much controversial. But for the future, please let's do it this

8 way.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say you don't take me entirely by

10 surprise, having heard what's been happening in other Trial Chambers.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I was pretty sure that I was not going to take

12 you by surprise.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we'll make -- we'll try -- unfortunately

14 these maps were prepared --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know.

16 MS. KORNER: But we'll see what we can do about that.

17 Q. All I'd like you to do, sir, is just could you look --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, put it on the ELMO, please.


20 Q. Could you just confirm that that's a photograph taken last year of

21 the garages at Betonirka. But did it look like that in 1992?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The technicians -- I don't know who is in charge

23 of -- yes. Okay. Exactly. We're -- for the record, we are looking at

24 photo number 1. And I thank the technicians for blowing that up. Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are the garages in photograph

Page 6883

1 number 1.


3 Q. And which garage were you placed in?

4 A. Garage number 1.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness indicates the last door

6 painted red at the right side of the photo.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much. You can take that away.

8 Q. When you got to your garage, were there already some 30 people

9 inside it?

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going -- can I just say for the

11 record, I'm going to lead -- and if either of the Defence want me to stop

12 leading, then I'll do so.

13 Q. Were there about 30 people in the garage?

14 A. Something like that. About 30.

15 Q. And did that include people whom you recognised?

16 A. Yes, it did.

17 Q. One of whom was the Muslim commander of the -- ex-commander of the

18 police, I suppose by then, Enver Burnic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And were there -- did it also include at least one Croat from the

21 village of Stara Rijeka?

22 A. Yes, Andjelko Skripa.

23 Q. Now, was there sufficient room in the garage for you to sleep?

24 A. Usually not, because the garage was about 5 to 6 metres long and

25 about 3 metres wide.

Page 6884

1 Q. And what about ventilation?

2 A. We didn't have any ventilation. There was a window -- there were

3 30 or 40 of us in the garage, and they put concrete blocks against that

4 window. So they closed it.

5 Q. Now, were you taken to the police building, the SUP, for

6 interrogation on the third day?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 Q. And what were you being asked about?

9 A. The questions they asked were who has weapons, what kind of

10 weapon, why haven't you sold the weapons? But mostly it was who had

11 weapons, what kind of weapons, how many Green Berets are there? The

12 questions were mainly questions about who the extremists were. And at the

13 end he told me, "You'll tell us about all of this and you'll confess.

14 You'll go and dig out the well. You'll go and fish in the well and you'll

15 take your weapon out of it, because the cat [RealTime transcript read in

16 error "camp"] can eat you up in no time."

17 Dusko Zoric questioned me, from Sahovci.

18 Q. I'm sorry. Just pause for a moment what did you say? He said --

19 the man said you'll go and fish in the well and you'll go and take your

20 weapon out of it because what can eat you up in no time?

21 A. The cat would eat me up in no time.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's come up at camp on the screen.

23 That's why I --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's camp on the screen. Now it's cat.

25 MS. KORNER: It's come up as camp again. Exactly. But the

Page 6885

1 witness is saying cat. And he is saying cat before. That's what I heard

2 at least.


4 Q. And what did you understand by the expression "the cat can eat you

5 up in no time"?

6 A. I took that to mean that they would kill me.

7 Q. Now, you told us who was asking you the questions. Did you know

8 this man, Mr. Zoric?

9 A. Very well.

10 Q. Was he a policeman?

11 A. He was a lawyer.

12 Q. Did anything happen to you during the questioning?

13 A. Not while he was questioning me, no.

14 Q. Did anything happen to you after the questioning?

15 A. Nothing happened to me in the office. He didn't beat me. I think

16 that he even behaved quite correctly at times. But when I was coming back

17 down the stairs, before that he said, "Kravic, push him down the steps and

18 hit him where you want to, so that he can be hurt wherever."

19 Q. This is what Zoric said?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what did happen once you left the office?

22 A. When I reached the stairs, he pushed me. He hit me with the

23 rifle. And here I have a wound from that blow. If necessary, I can show

24 it.

25 Q. I don't think that will be necessary. I think we -- the Chamber

Page 6886

1 is prepared to accept that.

2 He pushed -- he hit you with a rifle, and what happened?

3 A. I fell down the stairs.

4 Q. And were you able to get up, or did something further happen?

5 A. I had to stand up very quickly.

6 Q. Now, was that the first time that you had been assaulted?

7 A. No. I'd been beaten earlier on too.

8 Q. And when had that happened?

9 A. Before I went to the questioning.

10 Q. Was -- and who -- who beat you?

11 A. The people on duty who were guarding us.

12 Q. Now, during your imprisonment in Betonirka, how often were you

13 beaten?

14 A. Well, I wasn't beaten only on three nights out of the 21 nights I

15 spent in Betonirka.

16 Q. There were only three nights when you weren't beaten.

17 A. Yes. At the time -- it was the shift of a certain policeman

18 called Tolcin. It was his shift, and he opened the door of the garage.

19 We were given water when he was on shift. We were also allowed -- we were

20 even allowed to shave ourselves and to wash ourselves, so we could pour

21 water over ourselves.

22 Q. So on those -- when that policeman was on duty, you weren't

23 beaten. On every other night you were beaten.

24 A. They didn't beat anyone when that policeman was on duty.

25 Q. Right. I'm sorry. I just want you to confirm. Are you saying

Page 6887

1 those are the only three nights when you were not beaten?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was used to beat you?

4 A. Sometimes they would beat with all sorts of things. Sometimes

5 they would bring children in and they would train karate on us. Sometimes

6 they did it for the sake of it. They didn't use all their force.

7 Sometimes they used cables to beat us, they kicked us, they used the

8 table -- feet of tables and they used sort of spades. They would hit us

9 with those sort of things.

10 Q. And did that happen to everyone who was in the -- the garage with

11 you?

12 A. Only one person wasn't beaten.

13 Q. And who was that?

14 A. Beker.

15 Q. And do you know why he wasn't beaten?

16 A. I really don't know.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to finish. I've just got one

18 further aspect.

19 Q. Later on, in 1998, I think you said, did you and Beker compile a

20 list of the people -- the guards who had beaten you?

21 A. Yes, we did.

22 Q. And can you just have a look, please, and identify a photocopy of

23 that list, which is this document, Your Honour, here. It's just a long

24 list of names.

25 Is that the list that you and Beker prepared?

Page 6888

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be made Prosecutor's Exhibit

3 P823. Thank you.

4 Q. And can we see just very quickly, finish this off -- is the list 1

5 to 21, are those the -- the people who were the guards or are they just a

6 list of the people who interrogated you and beat you?

7 A. This is a list of the inspectors here. Here you can see Dusko

8 Zoric.

9 Q. That's the list that's headed "MUP,", is it?

10 A. In one of these.

11 Q. That's the list that's headed, "MUP," is it?

12 A. Yes, it is. M-U-P, yes. These are the inspectors and these are

13 the guards here to the left.

14 Q. I'm sorry. Of the guards that were listed here, was any one much

15 the worst or were they all much the same?

16 A. Milan Martic was the worst.

17 Q. That's not the Milan Martic who was from Knin. That's a different

18 Milan Martic, is it?

19 A. No. That's a neighbour of ours.

20 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Zulic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We have to stop here, Mr. Zulic. We will continue

22 later. And you will be brought back to The Hague to continue your

23 evidence. You will be informed accordingly.

24 We will resume --

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I just --

Page 6889


2 MS. KORNER: I have already made it clear when it was clear he'd

3 have to come back that he can't talk to anyone.


5 MS. KORNER: -- about the evidence that he's giving.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: It's very important. What Ms. Korner has just said

7 is binding on you. In other words, you cannot discuss these things with

8 anyone. I have your word as a gentleman.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My word.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We will resume on the 17th in the

11 afternoon. I think it's still in this courtroom. Thank you.


13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

14 at 5.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

15 the 17th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.