Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7854

1 Wednesday, 3 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You can proceed with calling the case, please,

6 Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Brdjanin. Can you hear me in a

11 language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

13 Honour. I can hear you and understand you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

15 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

16 language that you can understand?

17 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

18 I can hear you in a language I can understand.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

20 Appearances for the Prosecution.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Anna Richterova, and Julian Nicholls for the

22 Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam. Good afternoon to you and your

24 team.

25 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

Page 7855

1 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I

2 am attorney Milan Trbojevic with lead counsel Mr. Ackerman and our

3 assistant Marela Jevtovic.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon to you three.

5 Appearances for General Momir Talic.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and

7 Ms. Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau for General Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And good afternoon to you both. I thank you.

9 Before we proceed and before we go into closed session, we have

10 given our proposed schedule for breaks a second thought, taking into

11 consideration the plight of Mr. Ackerman as well as the not so obvious but

12 definitely concurring plight of Mr. Nicholls. Instead of breaking as we

13 had proposed to you yesterday, we will be breaking on the 13th of

14 November, resuming on the 25th, which basically means the following, so

15 that there are no surprises: The 13th is subject to changes. If I

16 find -- and usually when the winter flight schedule to Malta comes into

17 operation, there are no flights on Wednesday and on Thursday, which would

18 mean that I would have to fly on Tuesday evening. But if there is a

19 flight on Wednesday, then we will work on the 13th. This is -- this is

20 the idea. Okay?

21 So until now and until further notice, we will not be working on

22 the 13th, 14th, 15th. Then you have 16th and 17th, which is a Saturday

23 and a Sunday respectively. And then we will not be working on the 18th,

24 19th, 20th, and 21st just to fit in Thanksgiving. The 22nd is court

25 maintenance, in any case. And then 23rd, apart from being Judge Orie's

Page 7856

1 birthday is a Saturday. And then you have Sunday. And we will resume on

2 the 25th. And if you happen to arrive on Sunday, the 24th, Mr. Ackerman,

3 there is Scheveningen Sunday concert at 12.15 -- at 11.00 till 12.15, and

4 on that day it's Judge El Madhi's birthday. So one after the other. We

5 will resume on the 25th. The only change that there might be is the 13th.

6 If there is a flight -- if I can fly on Wednesday, rather than Tuesday,

7 then we will have a sitting on the 13th. Okay? So that will give you a

8 break of 12 days -- 12 running days.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I just want to say I'm very grateful to Your

10 Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You're welcome, Mr. Ackerman.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: And probably even more grateful is my wife.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no comment on this

15 change. I just wanted to let the Court know that I've spoken with

16 Ms. Korner and she would prefer that one way or we try to work some

17 more days before the end of the year. She's heard about the breaks. I

18 think it was 61 working days under the current scheme. And I just wanted

19 the Court to know we would prefer to try to fit some more days in if we

20 can.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You're going to work tomorrow, in any case, which is

22 your national day. Okay. And if you want to turn up on the 21st of

23 November, you're welcome.

24 No. I'll -- we'll take note of that. But on the other hand, I --

25 as I tried to explain to you two days ago or whenever it was, it's no use

Page 7857

1 trying to extract blood from rocks or try to make a horse drink once

2 you've taken the horse to the river or to the spring. I mean, we all need

3 to work at a pace which we can take. And please do understand that we are

4 understaffed. I'm taking this up myself with the rest of the Judges with

5 the administration, because I can't allow a situation whereby I have two

6 or three persons that have a workload which makes me wonder sometimes how

7 they can carry. And the same applies to you. I mean, to you and to us

8 and to everyone.

9 So let's pull the curtains down, go into closed session. And in

10 the meantime -- oh, the usher has to bring down the curtains before she

11 can actually bring in the witness.

12 [Closed session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7858










10 Pages 7858-7922 redacted. Closed session
















Page 7923





















21 [Open session]

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: The second piece of information is that because

23 we are so delayed, we unfortunately will have to make another change in

24 the order of witnesses. I have already consulted this with the team of --

25 Defence teams, and they do not oppose -- they do not object. And it is

Page 7924

1 that next witness will go as scheduled, 7.193. But the further witness

2 will be 7.13, and then will be 7.62.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And in fact you had already -- or either you

4 or Ms. Korner had already advised us that 7.13, who was the first one on

5 the list, would be coming forward to give evidence in the first week of

6 July.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. It is true, but he was scheduled after 7 --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's no problem.

9 And now the other thing that comes to my mind -- and it may be

10 that I am -- that you are going to consider what I am going to say as

11 superfluous -- but in case for the 15th we will be dealing with a new

12 witness, make sure that the shifting to the morning session does coincide

13 with his coming over. I don't know how you work it out, but make sure

14 that we don't sit in the morning while we expect the witness to arrive

15 from wherever in the afternoon, like Mr. Ackerman and Mr. Zecevic.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: My only question, Your Honour, is -- I think I

17 agree with you to bring the witness in and talk to him, but I wonder if

18 there's really a point in starting -- actually starting the direct

19 examination and talking for ten minutes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, no. I said bring the witness in. And at least

21 you can -- I can have a word with him and you can also start with the very

22 preliminaries. You know, I mean, it's -- those you can get rid of today,

23 you know, anyway.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: This witness does not enjoy any protective measures,

Page 7925

1 if I remember well. No?

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down. You may sit down.

5 And good afternoon to you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you too.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's only because I have been a Judge for a long

8 number of years and unfortunately this is not the first time that I had to

9 deal with a circumstance like this that I can address you with relative

10 ease. But I do feel embarrassed, and I feel embarrassed because I know

11 that you have been waiting to come into this courtroom and start your

12 evidence for over two hours. Under normal circumstances, I would have

13 told you that shouldn't happen, but it had to happen because the previous

14 witness took longer to finish his testimony; and therefore, we couldn't

15 start with yours before we concluded his. I am sure you understand, but

16 please do accept our apologies.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's fine.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you for understanding.

19 Now please stand up. The lady standing next to you is going to

20 give you a piece of paper, on which there is a text -- the text of a

21 solemn declaration to tell us the truth in the course of your testimony.

22 It's the equivalent of an oath, and you are a summons server, familiar

23 with court proceedings, I would imagine, I would suppose, and you would

24 know what I am talking about.

25 What I would like to ask you to do now is to proceed with reading

Page 7926

1 that solemn declaration aloud, with the understanding that that's going to

2 be your undertaking to tell us the truth and the whole truth in the course

3 of your testimony.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

9 Now, today you are going to be asked very few questions, because

10 we have got very little time left. And then the Prosecution will really

11 start examining you in chief tomorrow when we resume with our -- with the

12 hearings at 2.15 in the afternoon.

13 Now, let me explain to you what's going to happen. First of all,

14 you are in a courtroom, as you are well aware. We are the three Judges

15 presiding over this case. I am the Presiding Judge. My name is Agius and

16 I come from Malta. To my right, I have Judge Janu from the Czech

17 Republic. To my left, I have Judge Taya from Japan. We will be the ones

18 who will ultimately decide this case.

19 You will be examined in chief by the Prosecution, and the person

20 responsible for your examination will be Mr. Nicholls, who is the person

21 who I understand you already know.

22 At the end of the direct examination, there will be what we call

23 cross-examination, and there will be two cross-examinations, one by each

24 of the two Defence teams. The first Defence team is the -- is that which

25 you see to your left. In the front row is the Defence team for Radoslav

Page 7927

1 Brdjanin, one of the accused. In the back row, there are the Defence

2 counsel for General Momir Talic. They will be cross-examining you after

3 that -- the examination-in-chief has come to an end.

4 Mr. Nicholls, you can start with perhaps a few --

5 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll try to get just get out his personal

6 background, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

8 Examined by Mr. Nicholls:

9 Q. Thank you, sir. And I also apologise that you had to wait.

10 Could you please state your full name for the record.

11 A. My name is Bekir Delic.

12 Q. You were born in January 1959 in Cazin municipality; is that

13 right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Your ethnic origin is Bosniak?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And could you please tell us what your faith is, what religious

18 beliefs you practice.

19 A. I'm a Muslim.

20 Q. And when you were a very young child you moved to Sanski Most

21 municipality; is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. And you grew up there and spent really all of your life there, up

24 and through until almost the end of 1992.

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 7928

1 Q. You were married in 1992, living in Sanski Most, and you had a

2 child.

3 A. No. I was married in 1988, in December.

4 Q. I'm sorry. That -- my question wasn't clear. That's right.

5 And in Sanski Most you started -- you worked mainly for the Sanski

6 Most municipal court as a summons server; is that right?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. And you were also a driver and would drive the judges and other

9 officials of the court to different places in Sanski Most.

10 A. Yes, a kind of a court commissions.

11 Q. And in 1991 and 1992 were you a member of any political party?

12 A. No, I wasn't.

13 Q. Prior to 1991 I think you'd agree that relations between the three

14 ethnicities in Sanski Most were good, were normal.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In late 1991 these relationships were -- in late 1991 into the

17 beginning of 1992, did those relations change?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And they essentially broke down; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you --

22 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know if we should break, Your Honour, or

23 beginning -- substantive direct. I only have a couple --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. If you feel more comfortable that way, we will

25 do so.

Page 7929

1 So as I promised you, it will be a short session today. We will

2 see you again tomorrow at 2.15.

3 How long do you expect your direct to last, Mr. Nicholls, if I may

4 ask?

5 MR. NICHOLLS: As I said, I've been wrong. I'm going to try to be

6 very quick and finish in about two hours. And hopefully he can finish

7 tomorrow totally. That's what is my goal.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I don't dare ask the Defence, not having heard

9 the witness give evidence. So we'll see what happens tomorrow.

10 Anyway, I think the witness can be escorted out.

11 Ms. -- Madam Registrar, you can advise Judge Mumba we will be

12 shifting 15th to 18th. And then if there is a problem on the 15th, well,

13 we'll -- we'll see what we can do at that point in time. Okay? But in

14 the meantime, one can calculate if we start with this witness tomorrow -

15 tomorrow is Thursday - Friday -- would 7 -- do you reckon that you will

16 finish 7.13 and 7.62 during next week?

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I have to finish 7.13 on Friday. So

18 it's my wish and my goal to --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: We seem to be -- to be living on wishes.


21 JUDGE AGIUS: If not wishful thinking.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It would be great if we could conclude, because you

24 know that next week there's only sittings from Monday to Wednesday. Then

25 Thursday and Friday we have the plenary next week.

Page 7930

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In fact it's -- I'm being reminded, actually.

3 I should have remembered. But basically we have a sitting on the 8th and

4 on the 9th. The 10th afternoon is being reserved for the pre-hearing, or

5 call it whatever you like, on the contempt issue. So look -- look into

6 that, Madam Richterova, a little bit and see what the situation seems to

7 be in anticipation of the 15th.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: We know the situation -- or more or less we can

9 state that we will have one witness who will go for a long time after

10 we --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's BT21. No?

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: Exactly.


14 MS. RICHTEROVA: So after we finish 7.62 - which I expect can

15 start and be finished on Monday - we can start BT21.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, we'll play it by the ear and then we'll

17 see. Yes. We'll see how -- what position we are this Friday first before

18 we talk of next week and the week after. Okay? Thanks.

19 So good evening, or enjoy what's left of it and this beautiful

20 weather, and we will reconvene tomorrow at 2.15. Thank you.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22 at 6.31 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

23 the 4th day of July, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.