1 Friday, 30 August 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours. This is the

7 case number, IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir

8 Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you hear me

10 in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

12 Yes, can I hear you and understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: General Talic, good morning to you. Can you hear me

14 in a language that you can understand?

15 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

16 Yes, I can hear you in a language that I understand.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. You may sit down.

18 Appearance for the Prosecution.

19 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner, assisted

20 by Hasan Younis, case manager.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good morning to you.

22 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman. I

24 appear with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

1 Appearances for General Talic.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and

3 Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau for General Talic. Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Preliminaries before we start?

5 MS. KORNER: Just this, Your Honour: We did a check yesterday on

6 the three Sanski Most Rule 92 statements that you asked us about, and we

7 confirmed that I think we did -- we did say it, as Mr. Ackerman pointed

8 out at some stage, we're not going to call any of those witnesses.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

10 MS. KORNER: And we're still considering the position of the one

11 last witness from Sanski Most who couldn't come earlier. But we'll let

12 Your Honours know.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

14 Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, as you know, we were handed some

16 videotapes yesterday, and we've had a chance to review them, and either

17 now or at a time when Ms. Korner might decide she wants to use them, we

18 have some fairly serious objection to make to the use of any part of

19 them. And when the Court wants to hear that, it is of course up to you

20 all.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I certainly will be applying to use it,

22 whether with this witness or with one of the other witnesses who's

23 coming. At the moment I'm hoping that we will have by the end of today a

24 rough transcript in the Bosnian language of what's on the tape.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's important, yes.

1 MS. KORNER: As to translation, I don't know that -- I was hoping

2 that we might be able to do it if the interpreters had the transcript in

3 B/C/S, we might be able to get an instant translation over the

4 headphones. But if there's to be an argument about it, certainly I will

5 be applying to use what's on that tape. So obviously I'd like to call

6 Mr. Filipovic this morning. He's been waiting to start his evidence.

7 Maybe it's appropriate that we deal with it when we've got the transcript

8 on --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I would --

10 MS. KORNER: -- Monday.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I would say so.

12 MS. KORNER: Are we sitting in the mornings next month? I think

13 we are, are we not.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Next month we have a mixed -- I think the first

15 week is in the afternoon. The second week is in the morning. The third

16 week is in the afternoon. And I'm trying to make arrangements to have

17 some further changes.

18 MS. KORNER: I thought I'd -- when I looked at the list, we

19 finally were being given morning sessions again.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it may have been changed because I made some

21 representations earlier on this week.

22 MS. KORNER: Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: On the basis of the various complaints I was

24 receiving and also because I feel that our case should not be treated any

25 differently from other cases. And there should have been a further

1 attempt at make some adjustments. But my secretary till yesterday, at

2 least, did not inform me of any changes. As far as I know, next week is

3 afternoons -- afternoon sittings, if I remember well. And the week after

4 is morning sittings.

5 MS. KORNER: All right. Well, then, Your Honour, what I'll

6 endeavour to do is to get sent to Your Honours the transcript -- of course

7 that wouldn't help much.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No. What I would suggest -- what I would suggest

9 is -- we don't have the video recording in any case as of yet.

10 MS. KORNER: You don't, no.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't received it.

12 MS. KORNER: No.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: If Mr. Ackerman would accept to give us some prior

14 indication as to the basis of his objections.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Then first of all, we can decide how best to go

17 about it, because -- we could just hear the objections without having

18 first seen the video recording. But definitely at least we will need to

19 have an idea of what the video recording is all about. Or else get an

20 indication of what the objections are likely -- are intended to be and

21 then get the video recording from the Prosecution and see it ourselves,

22 not in open session, and that would put us in a better position to be able

23 to make an assessment and then we can discuss the whole -- the whole

24 argument.

25 MS. KORNER: Well, then I wonder if -- I think that would help.

1 And what I can try and do, if it's really necessary, I will try and

2 persuade somebody to work overtime over the weekend to translate the

3 transcript.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: How long do you anticipate Mr. Filipovic --

5 MS. KORNER: Mr. Filipovic --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Filipovic to be here.

7 MS. KORNER: Well, the best estimate -- I was talking to Defence

8 counsel about that -- is I thought if he'd started yesterday, he would

9 finish in chief on Monday. He's going to go through a number of the

10 documents in the bundle as Your Honours saw.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So this definitely -- if you're producing these two

12 video recordings --

13 MS. KORNER: Just one.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one. Okay.

15 MS. KORNER: Can I make it absolutely clear, the second one we

16 disclosed in case I might use. The one that I'm concerned about, that I

17 want to use, is the one he brought. He's mentioned on it. I do know

18 that. I've got a summary of what's on this video. It largely -- there's

19 some interviews with a man called Vinko Kondic, who as Your Honours will

20 hear was the chief of police. So effectively if Mr. Ackerman can indicate

21 now very briefly so I can start the witness what the problem is.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, unfortunately I don't understand the

23 language myself either. But I think what would be -- what I would

24 request -- and you of course may do whatever you wish -- is that you hear

25 our objections before you have a chance to -- before you actually look at

1 the tapes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, of course. Yeah.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Or read the transcripts of the tapes, because our

4 view is they are wholly irrelevant, they are designed to foist propaganda

5 upon you and have no -- they have no relevance whatsoever to any issue in

6 this case. The one that she's talking about I think is a tape about

7 bullfight where some people make some propagandistic speeches about how

8 bad Serbs are.

9 MS. KORNER: No.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I could be wrong about that. But I don't think

11 there's anything relevant here. And to the extent that people speak on

12 this tapes --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anyway --

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, let me say this, Your Honour: To the extent

15 that people speak on those tapes, I would certainly object to any of the

16 actual speech being made record in this case unless cross-examination can

17 be made. Because in effect they're going to be testifying in this case

18 without any opportunity for us to cross-examine them. So maybe we will

19 not object to the pictures being shown, but that remains to be seen.

20 MS. KORNER: Well, your, first of all let me say straight away

21 there's -- absolutely -- Mr. Ackerman is absolutely right. At the

22 beginning of this particular tape, there is a bullfight. Completely --

23 that is, of course, completely irrelevant, and it's not the parts that I

24 intend to play. Later on in the tape there is, however, a segment which

25 contains interviews -- and rightly -- Mr. Ackerman is quite right. It's

1 propaganda. We say it is propaganda. And we say it is entirely and heavy

2 relevant to this case -- from members of the Kljuc Crisis Staff, which

3 include, as I say, Mr. Kondic, who Your Honours are going to hear a lot

4 today from this witness, who was the chief of police; Mr. Bajic, who was

5 also a member of the Kljuc Crisis Staff. And that's why we say this is

6 utterly relevant. And there is, as I say -- as I understand it -- and all

7 I have been given is a summary of what's on the tape -- a mention of

8 Mr. Filipovic himself. And so we say it's highly relevant. And I don't

9 see -- I'm not sure how Your Honours are going to decide whether it's

10 relevant or not without knowing what the content is.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We obviously have to know the content.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But Mr. Ackerman obviously is right in suggesting

14 that first we should hear at least the basic argument before being able

15 to -- to decide later. Yeah.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes. But you can't hear a basic argument on

17 relevance without knowing what -- that what's on the tape.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: At least we will know before why Mr. Ackerman and

19 presumably also Mr. Zecevic believe that this whole -- this video

20 recording in whole or in part may or may not be relevant. I mean,

21 it's ...

22 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, can we do it this way then, that I

23 will endeavour over the weekend to persuade somebody to earn overtime by

24 translating what I hope will be a done transcript into English. And then

25 if we could perhaps deal with that -- so it will be 2.15. And I will

1 supply to Mr. Ackerman only to begin with them and to -- Mr. Zecevic

2 doesn't need it in English. But if we have a transcript --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

4 MS. KORNER: And then we can deal with it at 2.15. And if the

5 witness could perhaps be told to come at quarter to 3, so he doesn't hang

6 around on Monday. I know everybody here says they will be short, but I

7 think half an hour probably is --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

9 MS. KORNER: And if -- I'll make arrangements with Mr. Ackerman to

10 meet him on Monday morning to give him what we have.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner, and I thank you

12 Mr. Ackerman, Mr. Zecevic.

13 Usher.

14 MS. KORNER: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm deeply grateful.

15 Can I just remember something -- I'm deeply grateful to Mr. Younis who has

16 reminded me of something.

17 Could it be possible if Your Honour has a say about sittings in

18 September/October, that Brdjanin/Talic sit at a different time to Stakic.

19 In other words, if -- sit in the morning, we sit in the evening. Because

20 we are going to be on Prijedor -- Stakic have been finishing off, although

21 there have been delays for various reasons -- in September. But Judge

22 Schomburg has set aside a week for -- I've forgotten what the word he used

23 is. I think deliberations which are going to be held over the case. But

24 counsel -- for example, Mr. Koumjian, who's largely been conducting that

25 case and Ms. Sutherland will be calling the Prijedor witnesses, because it

1 makes sense that they're called in that case. So it would help enormously

2 if -- if on that particular -- for, say, a period of two weeks, from the

3 19th of September the Stakic sittings and the Brdjanin/Talic did not

4 clash. In other words, both not sitting in the afternoon.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think those two weeks we are sitting in the

6 afternoon.

7 MS. KORNER: Right. Well, then I don't know --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And Stakic alternates with Galic.

9 MS. KORNER: Right.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And it may be easier, because they both use the same

11 courtroom.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think -- as Your Honour recalls, we did make

13 an attempt early on to try and combine the hearing of the witnesses.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I know that.

15 MS. KORNER: That didn't work. But I'd be very grateful -- this

16 can't be that complicated I would hope to arrange for that period we would

17 not be sitting at the same time.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we would have to deal --

19 Madam Registrar, will you please make note of that. And we'll try

20 and deal with it either this afternoon or Monday morning first thing.

21 Obviously we will have to consult with Judge Schomburg, who will

22 definitely need to consult with -- yeah. We alternate with Simic most of

23 the time. This month I think we are -- this month we are alternating with

24 Milosevic.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Next month we would be with Simic. So I would -- we

2 would need also to speak to Judge Mumba.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, may I suggest to you -- I mean, because

5 from the information that I have just received, there may be a very simple

6 solution to it. May I suggest to you to first thing Monday morning,

7 because that's when it's more likely that we would know what the position

8 is with regard to another trial that's going on, that -- yeah, and it's

9 even -- I think we have got two solutions, not just one. I think we will

10 be able to do that.

11 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm very grateful to Your Honour. That would

12 really assist.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But if I may -- if I may suggest to you to contact

14 Madam Chuqing Monday morning, have someone contact her, so that we'll give

15 this matter our utmost attention. I am to assume that there's no

16 objection forthcoming from the Defence. I'm sure you would prefer to have

17 a shifting -- yeah. Okay. Thanks.

18 Thank you, usher.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Filipovic.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back to this Tribunal.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You are about to start giving evidence in this

1 case. And before you do so, our Rules require that you enter a solemn

2 declaration that in the course of your testimony you will be telling us

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text of this

4 solemn declaration is contained on a piece of paper that the usher will

5 hand to you. And may I kindly ask you to make that solemn declaration by

6 reading that statement, solemn declaration, aloud.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 WITNESS: MUHAMED FILIPOVIC

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That is your commitment with this Tribunal. This is

12 equivalent to an oath. In other words, you are bound to tell us the truth

13 and the whole truth.

14 You may sit down. And let me explain to you very briefly what's

15 going to happen. First of all, as you see, you're sitting in a

16 courtroom. And we are the three Judges composing this Trial Chamber. My

17 name is Agius and I come from Malta. To my right is my colleague

18 Judge Janu from the Czech Republic and to my left is Judge Taya from

19 Japan.

20 The three persons sitting in front of us are the members of the

21 Registry. And to your immediate right you see two persons. And that is

22 the team for the Prosecution. Ms. Korner, Joanna Korner, with whom you

23 are already familiar, will be the person that will be conducting the

24 examination-in-chief. In other words, she will be asking you a set of

25 questions which you are bound, obliged to answer unless we stop you. That

1 is your duty. We will stop Ms. Korner if there is a valid objection or if

2 we think that you should not answer a particular question.

3 When the examination-in-chief by the Prosecutor will be

4 concluded -- is concluded, then you will be cross-examined by the two

5 Defence teams. And the two Defence teams are to your left. In the front

6 row there is the Defence team for Radoslav Brdjanin, one of the accused in

7 this trial; and in the back row there are -- there is the Defence team for

8 General Talic, who is also -- who is the other accused in this trial.

9 As I tried to explain to you earlier, the same applies when you

10 are -- the same rule applies when you are being cross-examined by the

11 Defence counsel. The two Defence counsel will be doing their duty here

12 towards their clients. They have a right to cross-examine you, and

13 therefore your reciprocal obligation, duty, is to answer all the questions

14 that are put to you by the Defence unless we tell you not to answer,

15 unless we stop you.

16 Having said that, I now leave you not hands of Ms. Korner, who

17 will start with her examination-in-chief. Thank you.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just before I begin, can I take it that

19 Your Honour will be sitting until 10.30.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

21 MS. KORNER: And then there will be a break at 10.30.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: The break will be a little bit shorter today, since

23 we are stopping at 12.00, 12.15.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour -- yes, I wonder if the ELMO could just

2 be moved away slightly for the moment.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Usher, please.

4 MS. KORNER: It's a bit difficult.

5 That's fine. Thank you.

6 Examined by Ms. Korner:

7 Q. Mr. Filipovic, is your name Muhamed Filipovic?

8 A. It is.

9 Q. And were you born on the 27th of October, 1955 in Kljuc?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And are you a Bosniak, a Bosnian Muslim, by nationality?

12 A. Yes, I'm a Bosniak.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

14 microphone.

15 MS. KORNER:

16 Q. I'm going to ask you a number of questions -- just wait -- about

17 your life and the events of 1992. But if I may, I want to encapsulate it,

18 first of all. I think it's right that by 1992 you were a married man with

19 a son.

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. And you were and still are a surveyor by profession.

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. I think it's also right that you had a brother, Omer Filipovic.

24 A. I had a brother. I do not have a brother. My brother was

25 killed.

1 Q. It's your brother who was the Omer Filipovic who was killed in

2 Manjaca.

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. The encapsulation that I'm talking about went as follows, I

5 think: That you were taken prisoner by the Serbs in May of 1992.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. That you went to Banja Luka, first of all, to Banja Luka police

8 station -- I'm sorry, to Kljuc police station.

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Then to Banja Luka to Mali Logor.

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. From there to Stara Gradiska.

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And eventually did you end up in Manjaca yourself?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. And were you one of the people who was airlifted out of Manjaca as

17 a result of a Red Cross relief operation?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Did you end up in England?

20 A. I did. I came to England to be treated because I was severely

21 ill. And owing to the services of the International Red Cross, I was

22 transferred to England for treatment, where I underwent four surgical

23 operations.

24 Q. And did you remain in England until after the Dayton Accords had

25 been signed?

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. And then eventually did you return to Kljuc, where you've

3 remained?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And just so the Court understands, I think it's right that you

6 understand some English, although perhaps with less facility in speaking.

7 A. Well, I can understand it. I can't really speak it. But as far

8 as I need it, it's quite enough.

9 Q. Now, although the Court has heard some evidence relating to events

10 in Kljuc, I want to deal a little bit with the municipality of Kljuc

11 itself, since you, I think, lived there all your life.

12 First of all, I'd like you to have a look, please, at a map of the

13 Autonomous Region of Krajina, which was Exhibit P446.1.

14 MS. KORNER: And if we could have that put on the ELMO.

15 Q. Now, this is really just to identify its positioning within the

16 Autonomous Region. We can see that Kljuc was -- I'm going to get this

17 wrong, I think -- south-east of Banja Luka -- south-west? No.

18 South-west. I've got it wrong, have I? Yeah, south-west of Banja Luka.

19 It borders with Sanski Most to the top and then to Kljuc -- I'm sorry, to

20 Bosanski Petrovac to the west. And we can see marked on it - and we'll

21 have a closer look at a bigger map - the various ethnicities that were in

22 the villages.

23 As a municipality, Mr. Filipovic, did Kljuc have any particular

24 strategic importance that you're aware of?

25 A. In my opinion, the municipality of Kljuc was very important

1 strategically speaking for Bosnia-Herzegovina from a historical

2 perspective, because in Kljuc the very last Bosnian king died after the

3 Turks were conquering Bosnia, and it was in Kljuc that Bosnia had fallen.

4 And in my personal opinion, the people who wanted to destroy Bosnia

5 believed that if Kljuc was destroyed, that Bosnia would be destroyed,

6 because in the Middle Ages Kljuc was one of the capitals of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time of Bosnia.

8 Q. All right. Can we now look, please, at the ethnic make-up of the

9 municipality. And can you briefly please be shown what was Exhibit P60.

10 MS. KORNER: And again, if that could be put on the ELMO in the

11 English version and Mr. Filipovic get the version in the Bosnian

12 language.

13 And usher, if you just give it to me, I'll just get the right

14 place. Thanks. Or actually, it's all in the Bosnian language, so it

15 doesn't make much difference. Yeah. It is actually -- I don't think we

16 got -- we didn't get it translated, I don't think. So we'll just put it

17 on the ELMO.

18 Your Honour, this is page 19 of the document.

19 Q. This document is the results of the census that were taken in

20 1971, 1981, and 1991. If we look at Kljuc, the population between 1971

21 and 1991 dropped from -- the total population -- 39.966 to 37.391.

22 And then if we look at the number of Croats, there were 534 in

23 1971 and 330 in 1991. For the Muslims, 15.226 in 1971, and it had grown

24 to 17.696 by 1991. And for the Serbs, 23.892 in 1971 and 18.508 in 1991.

25 And there were a few what were called -- people who described themselves

1 as Yugoslavs in 1991 and who described themselves as others.

2 Now, if we look at the proportions, we can see that the Croats

3 formed .9 per cent of the population in 1991, the Muslims 47.3, and the

4 Serbs 49.5 per cent.

5 There was a decrease apparently in the number of Serbs from 1971.

6 Are you aware of the explanation for that, Mr. Filipovic?

7 A. The last three censuses I can comment in the following way: In

8 1971, it was for the first time that in the former Yugoslavia, that is, in

9 the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that there was a census when

10 the Bosnian Muslims, that is, Muslims in Bosnia, were recognised as a

11 nationality, and they were allowed to register themselves as Muslims. And

12 it was from then on that that part of Yugoslav peoples were either --

13 until then were either Serbs, Croats, or not determined. But it was after

14 1971, that is, for the first time in 1971 that there was the possibility

15 that they had a right for them as a population to register as Muslims. I

16 believe that it was then that out of fear and out of dilemma as to what

17 will happen in the future with them they still did not register themselves

18 in that census as Muslims. And that is why we see the tendency of an

19 increase in 1971, 1981, 1991 that the Muslim population has been

20 increasing, that is, that the more the Yugoslav state was democratised,

21 the more people ceased to be fearful and they were able to say what they

22 felt.

23 As for the Serbs and as for their rapid decrease in the census, I

24 can say that Serbs were leaving en masse in the direction of Serbia.

25 There was a continuous movement and started from 1945, because there was a

1 colonisation of Vojvodina that was ongoing and practically all Serbs

2 from the Kljuc municipality were going to Vojvodina. And there were --

3 they went to live there. And this was almost an unwritten rule, unwritten

4 law that if a father had, say, four sons, three would go to Vojvodina and

5 one would remain in Bosnia. One would remain on their land in Bosnia,

6 while three of them would receive a land in Vojvodina. So in this way

7 from 1945 onwards the Serbs were -- could simply say that Vojvodina was

8 nationally speaking Serbian, although historically speak Vojvodina was

9 never Serbian until 1945.

10 Q. All right. Yes. Thank you very much.

11 MS. KORNER: We can take that document away.

12 Q. And could you now have a look, please, at a map that's been

13 prepared which just show it is municipality of Kljuc?

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is a new map. A copy, I think, was

15 provided to the registry, this one. And I'd ask that it then be marked

16 Prosecutor's Exhibit 1097.

17 Q. Now, if you can see that --

18 MS. KORNER: Yes, we can come back slightly so that Mr. Filipovic

19 can see the whole map. Thank you.

20 Q. This is a map that's been prepared, which I think you've had a

21 chance to look at, Mr. Filipovic, which shows the various -- or some of

22 the villages within Kljuc itself by ethnicity. And would you agree that

23 that is if not 100 per cent accurate, roughly accurate of how the

24 ethnicities, the nationalities, were divided?

25 A. This question, if Your Honours will allow me, I can just add one

1 more comment. I can say that I agree, although I would add, if Your

2 Honours will allow me, just to say that in very recent past in Rastoka,

3 Orahovljani and here I cannot see Sredice and Zablace, they were --

4 villages including Sitnica where Muslims formed a majority in the Kljuc

5 municipality. Sredice perhaps is not here, because it belongs to Grebnik

6 [phoen]. So these villages that are mentioned from the Second World War

7 onwards were villages from which Muslims were forced out, and so they went

8 to villages around Kljuc. But this current situation on this map fully is

9 in line with the way population was distributed in the municipality of

10 Kljuc until 1991.

11 Q. All right. So effectively we can see that the Muslim-type

12 villages were closest really to Sanski Most; is that right? The ones

13 closest to Sanski Most.

14 A. Yes, that's correct. In 1962 there was a reform of the

15 establishment of the then-Kljuc municipality. It cannot be seen on this

16 map. Two large villages were taken off from the -- or taken out of the

17 Kljuc municipality. They were 100 per cent Muslim. And they were

18 attached to the Sanski Most municipality only for the reason so that it

19 can be manipulated so that the Kljuc municipality would turn out to be of

20 Serb municipality. And these were Hrustovo and Vrhpolje. What I mean is

21 that until 1962, these two villages were -- belonged to the municipality

22 of Kljuc. And if there was this proportion of population, then we could

23 not at all be talking about a majority of the Serb population in the Kljuc

24 municipality. We would only be talking about the majority Muslim

25 population because Hrustovo itself and Vrhpolje had about 10.000

1 inhabitants.

2 Q. All right. Thank you.

3 MS. KORNER: If you could put that away.

4 Q. And then finally I'd like you to have a look at a map of the town

5 of Kljuc itself.

6 MS. KORNER: Again, Your Honour, it's a new exhibit, which I think

7 has been handed to Your Honours and the Court. And may it be marked

8 Prosecutor's Exhibit 1098. Your Honour, it contains photographs without a

9 legend.

10 Q. Now, this is a plan of the town of Kljuc itself, Mr. Filipovic,

11 which again you've had an opportunity to look at. First of all, within

12 the town, were there certain areas that were Serb and certain that were

13 Muslim, or was it a mixed population within the town?

14 A. This question I could answer in the following way: By the

15 earthquake in Banja Luka -- until the earthquake in Banja Luka in 1969,

16 the Kljuc was populated 90 per cent by Muslim population, Bosnian

17 population. After the earthquake in Banja Luka in 1969, there was a

18 sudden change of population from the surrounding villages, Ribnik,

19 Sitnica. There were a large number of Serb inhabitants came to live in

20 the town of Kljuc. They populated the town, only the actual urban area of

21 Kljuc, while all peripheral settlements of Kljuc -- we can see

22 Tomasevica Grad -- this is the old part of town where the last Bosnian

23 king Stjepan Tomasevic lived. And other settlements. On the other side

24 Bebici, et cetera.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch all the names of

1 the settlements.

2 MS. KORNER:

3 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Filipovic. Could you stop for a moment. It's very

4 important that you don't go too fast. And the interpreter didn't catch

5 some of the names that you mentioned.

6 I'll tell you what, if you can -- we'll bring the ELMO towards

7 you, and if you can indicate with a pointer that you'll be given the areas

8 that you're talking about.

9 A. Here, in the northern part we can see Tomasevica Grad. This is

10 the old part of town, dating from Roman times where the last Bosnian king

11 lived Stjepan Tomasevic. Below the town itself there is the village of

12 Bebici or the locality of Bebici, which is 100 per cent Muslim populated.

13 On the other side of the Sana River is the settlement of Mehmedagici. This

14 is not in this part of map. You cannot see it. But it is below the

15 old town, Stjepan Tomasevic town. And it is on the other side of the

16 Sana River, because here question see the Sip factory. And from the other

17 side we can see the Mehmedagici locality. To my knowledge, there was only

18 one Serb family in the last 47 years.

19 Now, on the other side, vis-a-vis we are going in a southerly

20 direction from Mehmedagici locality. There is a locality that we used to

21 call Sarica Brdo. And there is also not very -- there are not very many

22 inhabitants. These are mostly Muslims.

23 Now, in the westerly direction, we come what has been -- called

24 Zelica Brdo and until then was populated by Muslims. But it is

25 actually known as Handanovica Brdo. The older inhabitants of the Kljuc

1 town was known as Handanovica Brdo because Handanovici Muslims lived

2 there.

3 Further on, in the westerly direction, there is the hamlet of

4 Hanlovici, 100 per cent Muslim.

5 If we go further in the westerly direction we come to the locality

6 of Rejzovici, also 100 per cent Muslim population.

7 Going out of Kljuc is the hamlet of Velagici. So this is

8 north-west. And it is also populated by Muslims.

9 Then if we go towards the north and towards the Tomasevica Grad,

10 there is the locality of Sehici, 100 per cent Muslim. What I mean to say

11 is that all of the surrounding area of Kljuc town is almost 100 per cent

12 Muslim, while in the town itself, the town of Kljuc, in the centre, as you

13 say in England, it is mixed population. It is mixed population, and we

14 cannot say where Serbs are, where Muslims are. But in the town itself we

15 believe that it is half and half. So you cannot say which of the two is

16 the majority, because the Serb who is have 2 per cent majority, this is

17 because the villages of Vrbljani and Ribnik. Numerically speaking, they

18 have advantage over the Muslims.

19 Q. All right. Now, thank you very much. Now, just before you leave

20 the map, can you indicate to the Court where you lived?

21 A. Here. Here in this part is my house where my father lived, my

22 great-grandfather. My father came from -- great-grandfather came from

23 Sredice. And my grandfather came from in 1978 [As interpreted] -- when he

24 was forced out, Sredice used to be ours, but to date we have never been

25 given any compensation, not a penny. This has been taken away from us.

1 And this is where I used to live, in the immediate vicinity. This -- I

2 don't know whether Your Honours can see it. This house here, this is the

3 house which I sold to my best friend Vinko Kondic.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So -- usher, could you please give the witness

5 a coloured pen. And could the witness please mark on the map with an "X"

6 and then the -- his residence, his home.

7 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether this is correct.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Could you --

9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

10 MS. KORNER: That's -- that's where your home is though. Yeah.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you put an "H" on top of that "X," please.

12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

14 MS. KORNER:

15 Q. And perhaps you could also indicate where you say Vinko Kondic's

16 home was.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

18 MS. KORNER:

19 Q. With a "K."

20 JUDGE AGIUS: The house you sold to Vinko Kondic.

21 MS. KORNER: Yeah.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you mark it on the map with a --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would use a different colour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Use a different colour. Don't worry. I will please

25 you.

1 MS. KORNER: If he could be given a different -- yeah.

2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And put a "K," please, on top of that cross.

4 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Now, in the space to the right, could

6 you just put your initials, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's enough. Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to say that I did

10 not sell Vinko Kondic a house. I sold him a plot of land where he then

11 built a house. I sold him a land, plot of land.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 MS. KORNER:

14 Q. All right. Now, then finally before we leave this map, can we

15 just look at some of the photographs that are there. The top photograph,

16 can you tell us what that represents, the one marked "1."

17 A. This is the health centre in Kljuc.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. Hospital.

20 Q. The hospital. And we can see that indicated on the map.

21 Ignore, please, 2 and 3, because those are areas as opposed to --

22 well, you may be able -- can you tell us -- you may be able to tell what

23 you say number 2 represents. If you can't, say so straight away.

24 A. This is some derelict house. I cannot determine the location.

25 But these are derelict houses. I cannot tell you exactly where they are.

1 Q. All right. That's fine. Could you then go, please, to photograph

2 number 4. And could you tell us what that is.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone of the witness please be

4 adjusted.

5 MS. KORNER: Just a moment. Pause. The microphone -- if you

6 could pull up that microphone so the interpreters can hear him.

7 Q. Can you tell us what number 4 represents.

8 A. This is the building of the Kljuc municipality. This building

9 here is where I had worked 1992, the very last window here, where I worked

10 until 1992. And the fourth window to the right is the window of the

11 office where I work now.

12 Q. All right. So that's the municipality building in Kljuc.

13 A. That's right.

14 MS. KORNER: I think it's been marked on the map, Your Honours.

15 As "municipal assembly." But I don't think there's any dispute it's one

16 in the same.

17 Q. Number 5, can you tell us what that is?

18 A. This is the building of the primary school in Kljuc. Before the

19 war it was known as Nikola Mackic. And then in 1992 in the sports hall

20 of the school, where you can just see the corner, in the latter part of

21 the school the Serb extremist carried out detention and beatings of

22 Muslims and Croats. This was like a collection point where they were

23 collecting people before they were taking them to -- before they took them

24 to Manjaca.

25 Q. Okay. Photograph number 6, are you able to identify that?

1 A. This is a football pitch, the stadium of the football club Kljuc.

2 This is a container where drinks are sold at halftime. And in 1992 when I

3 was captured, women and children and all other Muslims and Croats who

4 happened to be in Kljuc and who were not taken to Manjaca, they were

5 brought there. This is where a selection was carried out where men were

6 divided from women and children and men were later on deported to

7 Manjaca.

8 Q. All right.

9 MS. KORNER: That's been indicated, your, as "sports field," but I

10 think the description is the same.

11 Q. Number 7, please, if you can help us.

12 A. Photograph number 7 is part of the cultural centre where

13 sociopolitical organisations. The left-hand side of the photograph there

14 is a cinema, a theatre hall, and so on. The lower part is the town

15 library. And then in this other part is where political parties were

16 based, where they are located.

17 Q. Thank you. Number 8?

18 A. Photograph number 8 is the police administration in Kljuc, where I

19 was held. And now these steps are slightly changed from those before.

20 They used to be old staircase of the police administration. And we the

21 prisoners, specifically myself, we were thrown from this part here, when

22 they forced me to go to Stara Gradiska, they threw me from there to there

23 to the bottom of the stairs with my hands tied behind my back. I tumbled

24 down the staircase all the way.

25 Q. Number 9, I'm not sure that you'll be able to help with, but if

1 you can, you tell us in 1992 what was there.

2 A. Yes, I can, because I know what this is. The white part of the

3 building up to here. So this white part is the municipal hall of Kljuc.

4 And the red part is the building which housed the Territorial Defence in

5 Kljuc.

6 Q. All right.

7 A. And they are adjoining buildings.

8 Q. And then finally, number 10?

9 A. The Orthodox church, which is in the very heart of Kljuc. After

10 the liberation of Kljuc, it survived, unlike 17 mosques and the Catholic

11 church, which were all destroyed in 1992. Yet the Orthodox church is

12 still standing in Kljuc, and nothing is wrong with it.

13 Q. Okay. And now, finally, before we leave it, we've heard there

14 were very few Croats living in the Kljuc municipality. Were there Croats

15 living in Kljuc town itself?

16 A. Well, of the figure that we could see concerning the last census,

17 which showed that there were 330 Croats. I'd say that half of them lived

18 in the town and another half in the locality of Velagici and perhaps in

19 Oraskovici [phoen] or perhaps somebody lived in Sanica. But those would

20 be individual cases to groups you would find in Velagici and Kljuc.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Filipovic.

22 MS. KORNER: You can leave the map now. You can take that away.

23 Q. Now, I want to ask you a little bit about to the background of the

24 events of 1992. First of all, could you tell us a little bit, please,

25 about your brother, Omer. What was his position within the community of

1 Kljuc?

2 A. Prior to the first multi-party elections, my late brother Omer

3 was taught [As interpreted] at the Lazar Djukic secondary school in Kljuc.

4 Following the first multi-party elections, my late brother founded a

5 party, the SDA. And after that, the party called MBO, and then he tried

6 to organise all the population structures which agreed with his political

7 positions. So in the first multi-party political elections he

8 participated in the elections, and there we tried to work on our own,

9 because we did not enjoy the support of the authorities. In contrast with

10 other parts which existed there, which enjoyed the support of the official

11 authorities. For instance, the SDS had agreed you will be in the League of

12 Communists. You've got the power, but you will be helping us. We did not

13 have that. We had to finance ourselves for the first multi-party

14 elections, and we won 20 seats. The SDA won 16; MBO won 4. And the

15 Municipal Assembly of Kljuc at that time had 61 seats, which means that we

16 won almost one-third of the power there.

17 Q. All right. Can you pause for a moment, because I'm going to come

18 on to the multi-party elections. I just want to deal for a moment with

19 Omer's position. You said he founded a party called -- you say he founded

20 the -- I didn't think you said the SDA. Did you say the SDA?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Okay. You did. Right. So he was one of the founding members of

23 the SDA and then founded a party called the MBO.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right.

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. First of all, can you tell us what the initials --

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: He didn't say that he was one of the founding

6 members of the SDA.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No, he never --

8 MR. ACKERMAN: He said that he founded the SDA.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Those are Ms. Korner's words.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's -- I recall the witness saying precisely

12 what Mr. Ackerman has brought out.

13 MS. KORNER: That's right, Your Honour. I said that first. And

14 then I'm sorry if --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's all right. It's all right.

16 MS. KORNER: Slightly a change in --

17 Q. All right. First of all the -- let's deal with that. The SDA.

18 You say he founded the SDA. Where did he found the SDA?

19 A. That is correct. In Kljuc.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. The Kljuc SDA. Not the Bosnian SDA. The Kljuc SDA.

22 Q. All right. Then you say that he founded another party called the

23 MBO. Can you just tell the Court what the MBO stood for, the initials.

24 A. Muslim Bosniak Organisation.

25 Q. And why did he found a separate party from the SDA?

1 A. Personally because he thought that only people with a number of

2 political parties is a proper political people, that is, not to have a

3 one-track political mind, to think only along the lines of one party, but

4 let people think whatever they like and then opt for whichever party they

5 like.

6 Q. And was there any major difference between the platform, that is,

7 the ideas or the things that were said, between the SDA and the MBO at the

8 time of the 1990 elections?

9 A. No major difference. The chief difference was that the SDA

10 held -- that we were Muslims by ethnicity and the MBO considered all

11 inhabitants of Bosnia-Herzegovina where Bosniaks -- but Bosniak Catholics,

12 Bosniak Orthodox, Bosniak Muslims. Otherwise they agreed that the Bosnian

13 border should be the avnoj, borders, and everything else -- other parties

14 and other problematic -- were the same. That that was the only

15 difference.

16 Q. And the MBO was founded before the 1990 election.

17 A. Yes. That is why we could participate in the elections. Had it

18 been founded after the election, it wouldn't be able to take part in the

19 elections.

20 Q. All right. Who was the leader, then, of the SDA in Kljuc?

21 A. To the founding convention, when my brother founded the SDA, he

22 said "Then from the days now, I turn over the place of the president to

23 Mr. Asim Egrlic, and now I set off to found another political party."

24 Q. Okay. Now, you yourself, did you stand in the 1990 elections as a

25 candidate?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And for which of the two parties?

3 A. The MBO.

4 Q. Up till then, had you had any involvement in politics?

5 A. Why, no. I wasn't politically active until 1990, except that in

6 Bosnia we had such a system. Until 1987 I was a member of the League of

7 Communists, because we had a single-party system. You had to be a member

8 of the league, and I was a member of the league. And for a while I was a

9 secretary of the basic organisation in the municipality that I worked in.

10 But I don't see it as some kind of -- it was no kind of political

11 activity. It's simply something that came from the head office, and that

12 was it.

13 Q. And what made you stand for election as a candidate?

14 A. One of the chief reasons for my nomination was that I was present,

15 and I believe it was October 1st in the restaurant called Lane across the

16 street from the Orthodox church was -- the SDS held it founding

17 convention. And at that time I was a citizen who attended all -- I still

18 attend everything, so I was listening to the speeches of all the speakers

19 who were in the garden of that restaurant on days. And one of them was my

20 great friend until that time, Vinko Kondic. When I heard what Vinko

21 Kondic was saying at the founding convention of the SDS, and Vinko Kondic

22 has spent more time in my house and I spent more time in his -- in our

23 own respective houses -- then I told myself, Well, if Vinko can say this,

24 who is a lawyer, who is an educated man, who with me and my brother Omer

25 and Dule, the four of us were like four brothers, then what can I expect

1 from somebody from Sredice, from somebody from Rakovica who only attends

2 to his sheep. So Muhamed, listen if Vinko can be a great Serb, then you

3 can be a great Muslim.

4 Q. Pause please.

5 A. And that was when I decided to join the politics.

6 Q. Okay. What was it that Vinko was saying that provoked this

7 reaction in you?

8 A. Well, almost as far as I can remember, because it was a long time

9 ago. It was 12 years ago practically. But I remember hey him saying

10 that they would be biologically danger. That in the territory of Bosnia,

11 especially in Krajina, the Serbs were threatened with biological

12 extermination, that they had been brought to those territories, and there

13 was nobody there. That they had no jobs. Look around you, look how rich

14 the Muslims are, see how we have nothing. And he refused to face the

15 reality. He refused to go back to the '60s when the Muslims in Kljuc

16 could not get a job but had to go to Germany, to Switzerland, or to the

17 Netherlands. The situation changed and the mark dollar, Dule, began to be

18 worth something. Then they began to lose its value. Those who lived

19 there were simply making their ends meet, but they had fought for it.

20 They had worked. And these were bothered by it.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just watching the transcript and

23 listening, I think the translator and the court reporter are having a very

24 difficult time creating proper transcript here because the witness is

25 talking so very rapidly. I just think they are having a very hard time.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you for bringing that up,

2 Mr. Ackerman.

3 Mr. Filipovic, could I kindly ask you to slow down because we

4 have -- here we have interpreters translating to us from your language to

5 French and to English, and they have to catch up with every single word

6 that you say. So if you slow down a little bit, you would be helping them

7 tremendously.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will do my

10 best. I will try to speak slower. But for the past 12 years, since the

11 war broke out, these -- they forced me to speak faster. Now you tell me

12 to speak slower, but I'll do my best to speak slower.

13 MS. KORNER: Yeah. Well, Your Honour --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

15 MS. KORNER: Can we just leave -- the interpreters are, may I

16 saying, to the greatest respect to Mr. Ackerman, are capable of telling us

17 to ask the witness to slow down.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay.

19 MS. KORNER:

20 Q. Now, you told us about what Vinko Kondic was saying, and as a

21 result of that you've told us you decided to stand for election. For

22 which party -- I'm sorry, you -- I think you did tell us. You told us you

23 stood for the MBO. Were you elected?

24 A. Yes. Yes, I was. But before that there on the days was also my

25 late brother at the founding convention because they had invited him as a

1 guest and he was there, quite in the immediate neighbourhood of Radovan

2 Karadzic. And my brother then stepped out on behalf of the Muslims of

3 Kljuc. He spoke and said, "Thank you, Serbs. You've organised yourselves

4 today. You've made it possible for us to organise ourselves because you

5 were the first ones to start this. It will be easier for me to organise

6 my people now." But I was so indignant after Vinko's address. I was

7 waving to Omer and saying, "Give me the application card, because from now

8 on I will be with you, because until the -- for the month before that, I

9 was telling Omer, 'Oh, get away with this politics. I mean, I don't want

10 to do anything with it.'"

11 Q. All right.

12 A. And in the elections I was elected as one of four MBO candidates.

13 Q. Yes. And I think you told us a little earlier that the number of

14 people elected was -- for the parties was as follows: That your party,

15 the MBO, received 4 seats.

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. The SDA achieved 16, and the SDS 31.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then I think there were another 10 seats which were allocated

20 between different smaller parties.

21 A. At that time they were called -- I think it was the SDP, and that

22 was the successor to the League of Communists. Then the Reformist's

23 party. Then there was another one. I believe there were four of them. I

24 can't really give you the names of these parties, but I believe there were

25 four parties and they had ten deputies altogether.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

2 microphone or speak up.

3 MS. KORNER:

4 Q. I'm sorry. I'm afraid this is -- you'll learn, I'm afraid, over

5 the next few days. The interpreters are asking if you could lean towards

6 the microphone or perhaps bring your chair in so they can hear you.

7 So therefore the result, I think, was that the SDS had an overall

8 majority within the assembly of one seat.

9 A. That's right. Yes. Yes. They had the majority, and whatever

10 decision required relative majority, they could do it by themselves

11 without any other party. They could take whatever decision in the

12 municipal assembly in Kljuc. Of course some other decisions required two

13 thirds majority. And then they tried to make some calculations. After

14 1990, after the elections, they could function by themselves, since they

15 had one-third [As interpreted] Of the seats in the municipal assembly.

16 Q. But at the same time I think there were elections to the assembly

17 in Sarajevo. And I would like you just very briefly, please, to have a

18 look at a document, the gazette, which recorded the result of that

19 election.

20 MS. KORNER: Could the witness be handed P758B. It's the gazette

21 in B/C/S. And we'll have the English put on the ELMO.

22 And again, if the usher could give it to me first. I'll find the

23 relevant bits.

24 Q. And I think we can deal with this fairly briefly, Mr. Filipovic.

25 In the election to the national assembly in Sarajevo, was a Serb who we're

1 going to hear more about, called Rajko Kalabic elected?

2 A. Yes, that's right. He won. He won because Dr. Mesic Suad was

3 running against him, but Rajko Kalabic won more votes and went to

4 represent the SDS in the Bosnian parliament.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes, you can take that document away.

7 Q. Now, you've -- before I move on to what happened after the

8 elections, you've told us about your friendship with Vinko Kondic. What

9 were relations like between the nationalities up until and indeed so after

10 the elections?

11 A. Well, to tell you the truth, up to 1990, up to the first

12 multi-party elections, and even for a goodish part of -- that is, the

13 elections took place in November. So for the first half of 1991, this

14 nationalistic wave did not swell that much in the municipality of Kljuc,

15 so it was quite natural for a Muslim Serb, a Croat, to go to a tavern

16 together, order drinks --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... the

18 interpretation is coming in very feint in my case, at least. I can barely

19 hear the interpreter.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 MS. KORNER: If Your Honour maybe turns up the volume on the ...

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't touched it.

23 Can I --

24 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

1 MS. KORNER:

2 Q. Yes. You were saying that it was quite natural for a Muslim, a

3 Serb, a Croat to go to a tavern together and order drinks. Was there

4 intermarriage between the various nationalities?

5 A. Why, yes. Specifically I have some relatives who are in mixed

6 marriages. And Vinko Kondic, his brother Dule is a Muslim, that is,

7 Vinko's sister-in-law is a Muslim. In Bosnia you can hardly find those

8 areas where people are not mixed, whether Muslim and Serb, Serb and

9 Croat. I mean, it's all mixed. Mr. Izetbegovic used to say,

10 "Bosnia-Herzegovina is like leopard skin." I mean, it's all so mixed

11 that it's impossible to really separate individual ethnic groups.

12 Q. Now, you've told us, however, that one of the factors or maybe the

13 factor that made you stand for election was the speech made by Vinko

14 Kondic in respect of the Serbs being threatened.

15 A. [No interpretation]

16 Q. Had speeches like that been made before the elections, or was that

17 the first time that you heard those type of speeches, of that type of

18 speech?

19 A. I heard this speech delivered by my best friend. Before that I've

20 heard other speeches of that kind, but I wasn't interested in them. But

21 because the men who delivered the speech was my friend with whom I'd drunk

22 up tonnes of water together [As interpreted], loaves of bread together, it

23 hurt me to hear it from him, not when I heard it from some other Serbs.

24 Q. Now, just very briefly, because I want to go back to what happened

25 in the assembly after the elections. When did relationships between the

1 various nationalities really here in Kljuc, between the Muslims and the

2 Serbs, begin to deteriorate badly?

3 A. As I have said, up to the elections. And -- but the

4 deterioration -- things started to deteriorate when the Serb extremists

5 took over the repeat of the Sarajevo Radio Television on Kozara and

6 started using it to transmit the channel 2 of the Belgrade television.

7 That is when the relations became exacerbated. If the Court will allow

8 me, I will tell you a joke which I used to tell at that time because I was

9 never afraid to tell jokes or say what I think. So if I am permitted ...

10 Q. I think that unless it really illustrates, Mr. Filipovic, what

11 you -- what you're trying to explain, I think not.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me -- let's hear it. Let's hear it.

13 MS. KORNER: All right.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you'll make our day.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I used to say -- in the

16 morning we would get to work, so we're having our morning coffee, Serbs

17 and Muslims together, commenting on the previous evening's events. And I

18 said, "Listen, folks. If I continue watching the Belgrade television,

19 I'll become a greater Chetnik than you are." What I'm trying to say is

20 what these programmes did -- hatred in among -- in the Serb people against

21 other peoples. We heard fairy tales, myths. Bones were taken out of

22 different pits, saying that these were Serb bones only and nobody else's,

23 as if no other citizen of the then-Yugoslavia had ever perished. So I

24 think that the chief inducer of this inter-ethnic intolerance was channel

25 2 of the Belgrade television, but I can't really remember the date.

1 MS. KORNER:

2 Q. Don't worry.

3 A. I think it was 1991.

4 Q. Yes. Well, we've heard other evidence this was August 1991,

5 Mr. Filipovic.

6 And finally, before the break, can I just ask you this and get it

7 out of the way: Who was Professor Muhamed Filipovic, who had the same

8 name as you?

9 A. Professor Muhamed Filipovic had relatives. He had one particular

10 relative who, in the elections of 1990, was a member of the state

11 parliament. He was one of the presidents of the MBO. During the

12 aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina he was Bosnia-Herzegovina's

13 ambassador to Switzerland and the UK. Currently lives in Sarajevo.

14 MS. KORNER: I think I know what Mr. Zecevic is going to do.

15 Q. Can you just explain, Mr. Filipovic, what relationship, if any,

16 did you have with him?

17 A. What do you mean? We were related.

18 Q. Yes. But how? Was he a cousin, brother, uncle?

19 A. His and my grandfather are brothers.

20 Q. All right.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Zecevic, do you still have --

22 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honours. I was just making an intervention

23 in the transcript, because the witness has said that they were relatives,

24 and it says Professor Filipovic had relatives.

25 MS. KORNER: Well, I noticed that. I thought that can't be

1 right.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: No. Everything is okay. Thank you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm getting a fairly long list of

6 transcript problems, and I don't know when you want to go through them.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless -- unless any of them is highly critical,

8 which needs to be clarified before the witness moves ahead, then we'll

9 leave them today end. But perhaps now that we are going to break, if you

10 have -- how many of them do you have?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Five.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I do hope -- you know, it -- I do

13 hope that they really are critical, because basically we -- we should be

14 depending on the interpreters and not on what counsel thinks was said or

15 should be corrected. We're going to get terrible problems.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. Okay. But let's see what they are. Come on,

17 Mr. Ackerman.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: We should have an accurate transcript, Your

19 Honour. And that's --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please go ahead.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. Line 19 -- page 19, line 8, the transcript

22 says 1991. The witness said "1992."

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 19 you said?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 19, line 8.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: When you were being asked to give information based

1 on the map of Kljuc municipality that you were being shown, you --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- You mentioned -- and here I cannot see, for

4 example, Zablace, which is on the map incidentally. I mean, you didn't

5 see it, but it is there. There were villages including -- where Muslims

6 formed the majority in the Kljuc municipality. Zablace is not there

7 because perhaps it belongs to Gornji Ribnik. So these mentioned from the

8 Second World War were villages in which Muslims were forced out and so

9 they went to villages around Kljuc. But this current situation on this

10 map fully is in line with the way population was distributed in the

11 municipality of Kljuc until 1991. Did you say "until 1991" or "until

12 1992"?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the census of 1991. Otherwise

14 1992. But the census was in 1991.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Next one, Mr. Ackerman.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's page 22, line 21. There's --

17 it's all quite confused, but I'm told that --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 22, line ...?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: 21, where it says 1978, I'm told he said 1878.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Where you mentioned that your grandfather came from

21 Srednice. When did he come from --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1878.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: 1878. That's essentially before.

24 Okay. Next one.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Line -- page 27, line 25.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: When talking about his brother, he said -- the

3 transcript says his brother was taught. And what he said was his brother

4 was a teacher.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That can be accepted.

6 Go ahead. Next.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: 37, line --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: This is something that could be corrected later,

9 Mr. Ackerman. I mean, it's -- it's so obvious, you know.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So we'll break for 20 minutes.

12 Twenty minutes from now. Thank you.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

16 MS. KORNER:

17 Q. Mr. Filipovic, just before we go back to the assembly and the

18 elections, I just want to deal briefly- and I should have dealt with it

19 earlier - with the statements you made -- that you've made before you came

20 here to testify. Can you just confirm the following: You were originally

21 seen by a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor in -- give me --

22 I'll just check the date -- May of 1997. You may not remember the dates,

23 but you remember being seen by an investigator?

24 A. Precisely, as far as the date is concerned, I don't know. But

25 yes.

1 Q. And then in May of 2000, I think you made a statement to a member

2 of AID in Bosnia, a Mr. Ibric.

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And were seen again by the Office of the Prosecutor in March of

5 2001.

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. And made a further statement as a result of being seen the day

8 before yesterday.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then the last document, which I will call a "statement,"

11 although in inverted commas. Did you in July of 1992 when at Manjaca sign

12 a document?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. All right. And I will deal with the Manjaca one at a later

15 stage.

16 Now, can we go back, please, to the assembly. You've given us the

17 results of the election. Can you tell us how the various positions, such

18 as the chairman of the executive council, police, and the like were

19 allocated after the elections. To which parties did the major posts go?

20 A. There was -- since the SDS after the elections in 1990, it was --

21 they won. In Kljuc they undertook to divide the power with the thesis

22 that when we came to negotiate between the parties, who's going to get

23 what, in the authorities the SDS representatives said they had to have the

24 police, the army, post office, finance, that is, they took over all the

25 institutions of power which have decisive power, which was military,

1 police, and money. And then the other sectors were given to the other

2 parties in order so they can negotiate what can be had by whom.

3 Q. All right. First of all, who became the president of the

4 municipal assembly?

5 A. President of the Kljuc assembly, following the first multi-party

6 elections, was Jovo Banjac, a civil engineer.

7 Q. Vice-president?

8 A. Vice-president was my late brother, Omer Filipovic, because the

9 statute of the Kljuc municipality was such that if in one management

10 position or leadership position there is a man of Serb nationality, his

11 deputy should be a Muslim, or the other way round, which means the

12 president was -- if the president had been a Muslim, then the deputy would

13 have been a Serb.

14 Q. And who became the president of the executive council?

15 A. Mr. Asim Egrlic, an architect.

16 Q. What position did Mr. Vinko Kondic hold immediately after the

17 elections?

18 A. Following at the recollections, he was the secretary of the

19 municipal assembly of the Kljuc municipality for a short while and then he

20 became chief of police.

21 Q. All right. Now, up until the outbreak of the war in Croatia, did

22 matters function at the assembly on a reasonably amicable level between

23 the parties?

24 A. Everything went normally unless there was something on the agenda

25 in relation to town planning. And this town planning was a problem

1 because this is something where people had to support each other, because

2 in the town planning that's how people got rewarded, people who obey the

3 authorities, they managed -- certain people managed to get some locations

4 that were not allowed in town planning. But through certain connections

5 these decisions could be changed.

6 Q. And did that have anything to do with inter-ethnic rivalry or

7 conflict, or was it purely, as it were, a matter that perhaps really, I

8 suppose, one could call corruption?

9 A. Personally I think that this was more a problem of conflict

10 between nationalities or ethnicities, because Serbs got something that

11 Muslims for 30, 40 years could not have, and Serbs would get that

12 overnight. Overnight they would get building permission. Even if from

13 time immemorial, this would be, for instance, a Muslim plot. People were

14 forced to sell their land to Serbs in order to get a permission. A

15 specific example, myself. In my land I sold a plot to Vinko so that my

16 brother and I would get building permissions, because Vinko got a

17 permission so we had to get one, although this happened before the

18 elections.

19 Q. All right. Now, I want to trace the events of 1991 through -- or

20 rather, with the help of some of the documents that we've recovered. I

21 would like you, please, to be shown the documents?

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this is in volume 1 of the three

23 binders. And it's been already pre-marked. And this, I don't think, can

24 be right. It's the one behind divider 9. But it's got a -- it looks like

25 it says Exhibit P3, but that I don't think can be right from my copy. It

1 is -- Your Honour, yes, it is P3. Oh, I know why, because it was one of

2 the ones that was looked at by Mr. -- Dr. Donia. But it's the second

3 document behind divider -- in the bundle behind divider 9. And could he

4 be handed, please -- yes, it had an original number of P851 until we

5 suddenly realised it was already exhibited.

6 Now, could we have the English on the ELMO, please, and -- there's

7 not massive interest, I see, from the public -- and if Mr. Filipovic could

8 have the original, which I'd invite Your Honours to look at, because I'm

9 afraid that again something has been missed out of the translation.

10 Q. This is a document which begins: "Despite the fact that the Kljuc

11 Municipal Assembly confirmed its existence," et cetera.

12 MS. KORNER: But Your Honour, in the original, one can see quite

13 clearly that it says "On the 10th of April, 1991," and that's been omitted

14 from the translation.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please go ahead.

17 MS. KORNER:

18 Q. This document begins -- and I'll just read the beginning and then

19 I'll ask you about the part of it. "Despite the fact that the Kljuc

20 Municipal Assembly --" and I think it must say "on the 10th of April,

21 1991 -- "confirms its existence and further participation in the Banja

22 Luka community of Municipalities and that it has elected its

23 representatives to the Community Assembly, due to the previous

24 transformation of this community into a regional community of 'Bosanska

25 Krajina' and subsequently into the Autonomous Region of 'Bosanska Krajina'

1 of the recently conducted plebiscite of the Serbian people and especially

2 due to the fact that the municipal board of the MBO continues to deny the

3 membership of the Kljuc municipality in the Regional Community, it is

4 hereby proposed that the municipal assembly adopts the following decision

5 at its session today:"

6 Now, before I come to the decision, it is clear that this

7 document, although it refers to the 10th of April in the original, must

8 have been brought into existence after November of 1991 because of the

9 reference to the plebiscite. But first of all, can you tell us about the

10 Banja Luka Community of Municipalities, the involvement of the Kljuc

11 Municipal Assembly with that organisation.

12 A. We -- when I say "we," I mean municipality of Kljuc, we were part

13 of the community of the Municipalities of Jajce, and with all of these

14 municipalities, we belonged to Jajce. And then there was a change

15 following the elections. There was a change, and from the municipality of

16 Kljuc it was asked to leave the community of Jajce municipalities and to

17 join the Community of Municipalities of Banja Luka. We, belonging to the

18 Muslim people, that is, SDA and MBO party members, in an unwritten

19 agreement with the SDS members we accepted this at first, that Kljuc

20 should join the Banja Luka region. We even once gave our own

21 representative. And at one of these sessions my late brother attended.

22 But we never accepted to be part of the Autonomous Region of Bosnian

23 Krajina. And the main conflict between us and the SDS in Kljuc was

24 becoming part of the Serbian -- Serb Autonomous Region of Krajina, which

25 we opposed, and then the Serbs -- when I say "Serbs," I mean the SDS

1 authorities in Kljuc -- they adopted such decisions which were supposed to

2 satisfy the authorities in Banja Luka, that is, Mr. Brdjanin and his

3 associates, and they sent this decision. And anyone normal would see that

4 if a official document is forwarded, it should with registered. It should

5 be under a certain number. But this just passed through in my own

6 opinion, my own personal assessment -- I cannot tell you for sure because

7 I don't have access to complete documentation. But this just went through

8 the structures of the executive board of the SDS, and they put the seal of

9 the Bosnia-Herzegovina state. And at that time, as far as the

10 authorities -- the Serb authorities, there was a duplicity involved.

11 Wherever they needed Bosnia-Herzegovina, then they would put that as being

12 valid, this seal of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And if they needed something

13 else, then they would put their own seal, "Serb Autonomous Region of

14 Bosnian Krajina," or something like that. So Your Honours, you will see

15 in many cases there will be a Bosnian seal and then there would be a

16 different seal. This, in my opinion, this was a greater source of

17 conflict about what Omer was doing as vice-president and what Mr. Banjac

18 was doing. You cannot work like this. This did not go through the

19 session. He's calling upon the session held on the 10th of April, 1991.

20 But in order to confirm this, he has got to have a proper document which

21 would say "according to decision of such and such a number."

22 Q. All right. Can we take this in two stage, because although it's

23 clear that the document refers to the decision on the 10th of April, 1991,

24 it must have come into existence later, because it also refers to the

25 plebiscite of the Serbian people. But I want to concentrate for a moment

1 on this -- the document itself. It bears a stamp, you tell us, of the

2 Bosnian -- of -- or a seal of the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes. This is a seal of the Socialist Republic of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. And it bears the signature of the gentleman that you told us

7 about?

8 A. Jovo Banjac's signature.

9 Q. What does it have that in your view it should have?

10 Just pause for a moment don't answer for a moment. Wait. Wait.

11 Sorry, Mr. Filipovic.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 MS. KORNER:

14 Q. What's it missing, Mr. Filipovic, that you saw ought to have to

15 make it an official document?

16 A. In my opinion, in the top left corner there should be the number

17 of the document, the date, then how it was entered into the logbook, the

18 register book, with the seal, and then it should be said at the session

19 held on such and such a date it is confirmed such and such, because in the

20 files there is a logbook, a register, where each document is logged in,

21 and it says "document X" or so on. This is what it should be. You have

22 probably seen in some documents that this existed.

23 Q. Thank you. All right. Leaving aside the document at the moment

24 itself, it refers to a decision taken in April of 1991 -- or perhaps not a

25 decision. It refers to April 1991. Did Kljuc municipality in April 1991

1 join the Banja Luka Community of Municipalities?

2 A. I think so. But it says here "regional community of Bosnian

3 Krajina." This is the Banja Luka community. We accepted to be in this

4 region. Here you have in the second paragraph, in the regional community

5 of Bosnian Krajina. And then further on it says "Autonomous Region." We

6 did not wish to be part of the Autonomous Region, but we did accept to be

7 in the Community of Municipalities. We did want to leave Jajce community

8 of Municipalities and be part of Banja Luka Community of Municipalities.

9 Q. All right. Now, in the answer you gave about that, when dealing

10 originally with the document, you mentioned Mr. Brdjanin. When did you

11 first hear of Mr. Brdjanin?

12 A. Officially I first heard about Mr. Brdjanin during the

13 pre-electoral campaign in 1990. But in fact I heard about him when word

14 came to our institutions, Bosniak institutions. In Kljuc municipality we

15 learnt that Mr. Brdjanin sometime in 1991 - I don't know when - signed a

16 document asking SDS members establishment of power in the municipality.

17 This is when I first heard and saw about him. I don't personally know

18 him, but I've heard and saw him from TV and media.

19 Q. All right. When you became aware of him through the TV and media,

20 can you remember what year that was? Was it 1991 or 1992?

21 A. He was simply a person of some standing at that time. And if we

22 watched the news on TV, if he was in a situation that something happened,

23 his picture would appear on the screen and it said "at meeting such and

24 such Mr. Brdjanin chaired the meeting," and then they would say what

25 happened at that meeting, what he said personally, his speeches. I

1 personally didn't see him. I didn't see them. I only saw it on TV or

2 heard it on TV. It was only quoted from his speeches. Quite a long time

3 has passed, so that I cannot give you a precise answer.

4 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. But the year. Did you first hear him quoted in

5 1991 or 1992?

6 A. In 1991 and immediately after the elections. As soon as the power

7 was established from 1991, as soon as something happened in the news.

8 Q. Now, you've told us that though you didn't see him live, as it

9 were, on television, it was a report about a speech he'd made with a

10 picture. What type of speeches was Mr. Brdjanin making?

11 A. For instance, if we are looking at this as an example, there would

12 be the analysis of this meeting, that -- of this session, that Serbs had

13 to become part of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, that the only

14 salvation for the Serb people would be to be organised in autonomous

15 regions and so on. I cannot give you an exact quotation as to what the

16 journalist on TV said, but this was the gist of it.

17 Q. From what -- and I appreciate it's a very long time ago now. From

18 what you can remember, was there any mention by him of the other

19 nationalities?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, that's leading, and I object to

21 that. She asked him what he could remember that he said, and he told us.

22 And she's now leading him, trying to get him to say something after he has

23 told us what he remembers.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Mr. Ackerman, I will allow the question. He's

25 just started saying what he remembers, and it's perfectly legitimate to

1 ask him questions to see if he could remember more.

2 Go ahead, Ms. Korner.

3 MS. KORNER:

4 Q. Mr. Filipovic, again, can you remember whether there was any

5 mention of the other nationalities in Bosnia?

6 A. Well, for instance, I think that his mention of other

7 nationalities -- I'm again talk about the region of Bosanska Krajina. "The

8 Serbs have brought on the edge of biological extinction, brother Serb, we

9 have to organise ourselves, we the Serbs --" I'm a Bosniak. I belong to

10 the Bosniak people, and the Serbs considered that we were part of the

11 Muslim Ustasha coalition. And when you say the Muslim Ustasha coalition

12 which threatened them with their biological extermination, I cannot really

13 quote the words, but the mention of other nations was roughly along those

14 lines.

15 Q. You say the Muslim Ustasha coalition. Did he use the word

16 "Ustasha"?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, she -- she's totally -- he didn't

18 say that Mr. Brdjanin said anything -- said "Muslim Ustasha coalition" or

19 anything like that. He said -- the only thing that he heard Brdjanin talk

20 about in the other nationalities was in connection with the Bosanska

21 Krajina region. And then he talks about the Serbs bringing on Muslim

22 Ustasha coalition. That's something that -- he doesn't relate to

23 Mr. Brdjanin at all.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] The answer was -- he was

25 answering --

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: He was answering a specific question addressed to

3 him as to whether in these reports about the speeches of Mr. Brdjanin

4 there were ever any reference to other nationalities in Bosnia. And he's

5 explaining that the mention or reference to other nationalities was in the

6 context of an alleged Muslim Ustasha coalition. This is what he is

7 answering. That's how I understood him anyway. I mean, it's -- it's not

8 an impression or an opinion that he formed.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: He doesn't say that Mr. Brdjanin said anything

10 about a Muslim Ustasha coalition. Those are -- that's his --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me --

12 MR. ACKERMAN: That's his analysis.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me put -- that's how I understand him, what he

14 was saying.

15 Mr. Filipovic, one moment. According to the reports that you

16 followed on the media, TV in particular, as it seems, is it your

17 recollection that in his speeches Mr. Brdjanin made reference to a Muslim

18 Ustasha coalition?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, he already told us that he never heard

20 Mr. Brdjanin make a speech.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's the report.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: So he can't ask him if --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: These are the reports, Mr. Ackerman. Reports. I

24 didn't say that he -- that he ever heard Mr. Brdjanin make a speech. But

25 he said earlier on that on TV they used to report his speeches. So.

1 So my question to you: Is it your recollection - and you have to

2 be very clear about this - that in these reports you heard about

3 Mr. Brdjanin's speeches, there was a specific reference to the so-called

4 Muslim Ustasha coalition?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me answer you, Your Honour. At

6 that time there was no Serb leader who did not mention the Muslim Ustasha

7 coalition in his speeches. And I think that Mr. Brdjanin is one of them.

8 You can't find any one of them who failed to mention the Muslim Ustasha

9 coalition.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That is a conclusion. My question was very

11 specific: In these reports, were the phrases, the words used, to the

12 effect that Mr. Brdjanin had made reference, apart from the Serbs, also to

13 the Muslim Ustasha coalition? And please answer yes or no. It's a very

14 simple question.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Madam Fauveau.

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to make the same

18 objection as Mr. Ackerman. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: One thing, Your Honours. Line -- page 54, line 8.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak into the

22 microphone.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: It is the -- the sentence which starts "And I

24 think."

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

1 MR. ZECEVIC: And the witness has said "I assume." He didn't say

2 "I think." He said "Smatre" [phoen]. It is "I assume."

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is Mr. Zecevic correct, Mr. Filipovic?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think and I assume and I hold that

5 it is one in the same. I think that they're all pseudonym, different

6 words meaning the same thing.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

8 MS. KORNER: Right.

9 Q. Mr. Filipovic, that's what you recall of the reports. You told us

10 that -- earlier that Mr. Brdjanin was one of the leaders. From what made

11 you aware that as far as you were concerned he was one of the leaders?

12 A. One of the documents, the one that we discussed later on, is a

13 document that he signed, and it was about the organisation of government,

14 of authority. While in my book, it cannot be done by a record file man.

15 It must be somebody who holds a high office. And as far as I can

16 remember, this document was of 1991 and then the SDA and MBO discussed

17 this document. And I'm sure there was talk about it in the set assembly

18 sessions, Radio Kljuc.

19 Q. All right. Now, you never met him. Do you know whether or not

20 Mr. Banjac or Mr. Kondic or any of the other leaders of the SDS in Kljuc

21 had any meetings with him?

22 A. Yes. Yes, they did. Because I know that -- they used the

23 official municipal car to attend party meetings. On one occasion I even

24 had words with my late brother, because I told him, "Why don't you request

25 a car so that we can attend our party meetings at the state's expense."

1 And he said, "How can we do it?" And I said, "Well, if Vinko can use it

2 to go to Banja Luka to attend SDS meetings, then why not?" We had a

3 meeting in Srebrenica in 1991 -- in 1991. It was already divided Stole

4 Despotovic was the one who drove Serbs. And -- I can't remember his last

5 name, because the man was killed, he was the man who drove the Muslims.

6 He had a Renault. The other one had a Peugeot. And ...

7 Q. Did your brother, the late Omer Filipovic, ever attend or meet

8 Mr. Brdjanin?

9 A. He was at a meeting. Now, I don't know whether it was in Banja

10 Luka or perhaps Kotor Varos. But in one of those towns around Banja

11 Luka -- or perhaps Teslic. I can't really say. But he was present at a

12 meeting which discussed it. And after that I heard a great deal from

13 him. He still could tell me these things. And then I heard about

14 Brdjanin and Kupresanin and so on. But Omer did attend one of them, but I

15 can't really say where the session was held.

16 Q. All right. Well, first of all, he mentioned Kupresanin. Were you

17 aware of Mr. Kupresanin before your brother mentioned him?

18 A. Why, yes. Through the media I knew that he held an office. But

19 the first time I saw him was at Manjaca.

20 Q. All right. Of the two of them, as far as you were concerned, that

21 is, Brdjanin and Kupresanin, who was the most public figure?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes or no?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: No objection.

24 MS. KORNER:

25 Q. Mr. Filipovic, who was the most public figure as far as you were

1 concerned?

2 A. As far as I'm concerned, it was Brdjanin. But that is my personal

3 opinion. I don't know how the government was organised, but I believe

4 that Brdjanin was given more coverage in the news.

5 Q. All right. Now, finally this: When your brother came back from

6 this meeting, wherever it was, at which Mr. Brdjanin was present, what

7 view did he express to you as to what was going to happen in respect of

8 the relationship between the Serb nationalities and the Bosniak?

9 A. The first thing that would be done when we met - and we tried to

10 meet in the absence of our wives and children so as not to upset them -

11 and the first thing that we would discuss after he'd come after one of

12 those meetings would be nothing good is in store for us. And I'd ask him

13 why. And he'd say, "Nothing good is in store for us, same as our

14 grandfathers, as our fathers. The same thing is in store of us. And it's

15 only a matter of time when it will happen."

16 Q. So if we summarise the position up until around October of 1991,

17 the Bosniak parties were in agreement with joining the Community of

18 Municipalities in Banja Luka but not when it became the Autonomous Region

19 of Krajina. And can you just very briefly tell us why you didn't agree to

20 become part of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

21 A. We did not agree to become part of the Autonomous Region of

22 Krajina because we were aware of the concept which underlaid the

23 organisation of that authority and that concept was that those were Serb

24 territories only and the Serb nation was nation number 1, the Orthodox

25 religion the religion number 1; the Cyrillic alphabet, the alphabet number

1 1; and quite simply whatever concern the Serb people would be number 1 and

2 we other peoples would be second-rank peoples. And that is why we were

3 not happy and were reluctant to join the Autonomous Region of Bosanska

4 Krajina, because there was nothing we could gain from the region of

5 Bosanska Krajina. The region of Bosanska Krajina was something from, as

6 we say in Bosnia, Tito's state. Because in Tito's time you had Jajce,

7 Drvar, Banja Luka, everything was in working order and nobody knew --

8 nobody distinguished between Serbs, Croats, and Muslims. There was parity

9 principle. If the president was a Serb, the vice-president had to be a

10 Muslim or the secretary had to be a Croat, and that is what it came down

11 to. However, in an autonomous region, everything from the president to

12 the recording club, they were all supposed to be Serbs.

13 Q. All right. Now, I want then to look, please, at the next

14 document, taking us through 1991. Could we look, please -- or could you

15 be shown P854.

16 MS. KORNER: Which Your Honours will find behind divider 12.

17 Your Honours, this document is -- it's not altogether clear from

18 the English, anyhow -- was part of Radio Kljuc broadcast. It's not

19 objected to, and it was given by the local AID office.

20 Q. It's dated the 25th of June, Mr. Filipovic, and it talks about a

21 public discussion in the community centre that you've identified with

22 Professor Muhamed Filipovic. And that's the gentleman you identified as

23 your relative; is that right?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. It -- I don't want to go through the whole document because it's

1 just this -- because it refers to the secession of Yugoslavia from

2 Slovinia and Croatia and the sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina. What

3 effect did the secession of these two parts of -- republics of Yugoslavia

4 have on the atmosphere in Kljuc itself?

5 A. The secession of Slovenia and Croatia from Yugoslavia affected the

6 atmosphere in Kljuc because all citizens in Kljuc - and I should say all

7 the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina - held that Yugoslavia was sustainable

8 only within its own boundaries, that is, including Slovenia and Croatia,

9 that there could be no Yugoslavia without Slovenia and Croatia. And all

10 further efforts were aimed at showing that it was not Yugoslavia any more.

11 We -- there was even a term "rump Yugoslavia." But we couldn't agree with

12 this rump Yugoslavia because there was no Yugoslavia without Slovenia and

13 Croatia. And Slovenia, it seems, were much too easily allowed to leave

14 Yugoslavia, and we Bosnians refused it, so that this meeting was about

15 this, whether we should remain in the rump Yugoslavia or should we also

16 pursue the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, because Yugoslavia

17 within the boundaries as established by Marsal Josip Broz Tito was

18 Yugoslavia which suited best us Muslims, that is, Bosniaks. We wanted to

19 live in that Yugoslavia, and at no point in time did we try to break it

20 apart.

21 I come from a prominent family, from a big family, from an

22 aristocratic family which lost a great deal in that Yugoslavia by dealing

23 with all sorts of reforms. But we were happy with that Yugoslavia. We

24 were content with it because we were appreciated the world over. With

25 that passport we could go all over the world. And now we cannot make a

1 single step without a visa. So we, the Bosnians, Muslims, we were quite

2 content and at no time did we try to undermine Yugoslavia. But we did not

3 think that if Slovenia was allowed to leave and part of Croatia, then it

4 wouldn't be Yugoslavia, because we knew that even in the project it was

5 envisaged when, where the boundaries of Greater Serbia should be, and that

6 is Karlovac and all that there. And the latest war in Bosnia had shown

7 that the front lines followed the boundaries where the politician Moljevic

8 saw the borders of Greater Serbia, and we simply couldn't come to terms to

9 living in Greater Serbia.

10 Q. All right. I want to move then please on -- and if you could turn

11 to the next -- if you could be given, rather, the next document, which is

12 pre-marked P855. And it follows straight on in the bundle.

13 It's a document which is headed "Statement," and dated, we can see

14 at the bottom, the 19th of July. And again, it comes from Radio Kljuc,

15 Your Honours. It's handwritten, "Serbian Orthodox Church Kljuc," and it

16 says: "In July and August 1941, a terrible crime was committed against

17 innocent, helpless, and humiliated Serbian people in the school in

18 Kljuc -- Vrhpolje. For 50 years we failed heed the mysterious message of

19 their graves and we owe it to their sacrifices to interpret history

20 fairly."

21 Then there's a reference to a memorial service on the 2nd of

22 August and a bit more rhetoric, if I can put it that way, calling people

23 to come.

24 Now, these types of announcements affected -- recalling the events

25 of 1941, was this happening rarely or quite a lot at this period of time?

1 A. Do you want me to answer?

2 Q. Yes, please. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mr. Filipovic.

3 A. This document shows that the Serb Orthodox Church and the Serb

4 Democratic Party acted together.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I must object. The question was

6 asked -- was very simple: "Was this happening rarely or quite a lot?"

7 He's now going into some long explanation of the document. And the

8 question is "Is this rare or not?"

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Objection sustained.

10 Mr. Filipovic, the question was: "Now, these types of

11 announcements --" the question was whether these were -- let me find the

12 question.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the question was --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I remember the

15 question.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What -- just answer yes or no, whether it was

17 rarely or quite a lot.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite a lot.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But as a man, I should answer.

21 MS. KORNER:

22 Q. Yes. I'm going to ask you the --

23 A. This is not all right.

24 Q. If you can answer the question you're asked and then I'll ask a --

25 I'll ask some follow-up questions on that. So the answer was happening

1 quite a lot. You say this show it is connection between the Orthodox

2 Church and the Serbian -- the SDS. And I think the answer is obvious, but

3 why do you say that?

4 A. I say it because of a press release that was sent to the local

5 radio. And on one and the same sheet of paper two institutions, that is,

6 the Serb Orthodox Church and the Serb Democratic Party co-signed this

7 press release. There should be two different press releases. But as a

8 witness, I'd like to explain this invitation to the service by the SPS

9 and the SDS, as said. Because it is always said that in World War II the

10 Serbs were slaughtered, but nobody came up with the thesis how is it that

11 people were killed in World War II. The truth which could never be told

12 in public is that members of Ante Pavelic's army entered Kljuc --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Filipovic, the Chamber is not interested in a

14 historical explanation of the events of World War II. Please -- I'm

15 stopping the witness now. Ask him a further question which changes the

16 subject.

17 MS. KORNER: Well, I think the answer -- Your Honour, I think for

18 this limited purpose alone, because it refers to a terrible crime

19 committed against the people of Kljuc. And I can deal with that very

20 briefly.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But on the same score, we in Malta, we

22 wouldn't be on -- wouldn't be talking terms with the Germans, with the

23 French, with the Italians, with no one.

24 MS. KORNER: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

1 MS. KORNER: I think, Your Honour, there's a slight difference.

2 But I can deal with it very quickly.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so.

4 MS. KORNER:

5 Q. Mr. Filipovic, just very briefly - and as you heard His Honour, we

6 don't need a dissertation on World War II -- but this was recalling to

7 mind what was alleged to be a crime. Very briefly can you tell us what

8 they were referring to in this announcement.

9 A. They are referring to a communication that several Serbs were

10 killed in those places in Kljuc, and they accused the Muslims of it. But

11 the truth is that those Serbs were killed by members of the Ante -- of

12 Ante Pavelic's army, who entered Kljuc, put on their fezzes, that is the

13 ethnic cap of Muslims. And instead of being called Jure, Frane, or

14 whatever, they assumed the names of Mujo, Suljo, and this Serb idea, that

15 they have to avenge the death and on Muslims, because the Muslims had

16 allegedly killed them. But it has been proven that that crime was

17 committed by members of Ante Pavelic's troops.

18 Q. All right. Now, the only other question is: How often were the

19 events of the Second World War being brought up in Kljuc in this period in

20 1991?

21 A. Every address. Every speech by a member of the SDS, either in

22 public venues or political meetings they would -- when they would always

23 start talking "What did the Muslim Ustasha coalition do to us?" That

24 was always the beginning of every speech because that is their chief

25 motif, that is how they tried to involve the rest of the Serb masses.

1 Q. All right. Then perhaps before the break I can deal with one

2 further document. And for that we need to go back. And could you be hand

3 P852, please.

4 MS. KORNER: It's behind divider 10.

5 Q. This is an official statement issued by the MBO municipal board in

6 Kljuc. It's undated, but it states the following: "In agreement with the

7 SDA, that there's been psychological pressure on the Muslim population,

8 that --" and I'm going to skip the first three paragraphs.

9 Paragraph 4: "The rumours have now turned into concrete threats

10 in the form of anonymous letters to prominent figures of Muslim political

11 life. The best example is a letter that Omer Filipovic received on the

12 8th of May this year which disparaged the political, religious, and

13 cultural sentiments of the Muslims in a vulgar way and made direct threats

14 of the use of Chetnik methods." And then it goes on to state that "The

15 MBO and the SDA in Kljuc will represent the interests of the Muslim people

16 and also the interests of peace and co-existence."

17 And then finally it talks about the establishment of a patriotic

18 civic front. And again, I think -- I'll just check that, that this

19 document was Radio Kljuc.

20 Now, first of all, it's not dated. From what's in there, are you

21 able to give us a rough date of when this was issued?

22 A. Which document do you mean?

23 Q. P852, this one that you're look at?

24 A. This one here.

25 Q. Yes.

1 A. This, I'd say it was issued sometime in May, because I've already

2 said in the beginning that we all did it at our own expense. That is, we

3 covered -- we bore all the expenses ourselves. So when we came by some

4 paper, then we would write a document and submit it to the Radio Kljuc at

5 the session of the MBO held on such and such date.

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. And that is how we sent it.

8 Q. All right. I'm just trying to establish -- May 1991 or May 1992

9 it talks about a patriotic civic front.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So does that make it May 1991 or May 1992?

12 A. It can't be 1992.

13 Q. All right.

14 A. Because in May 1992 there was a war on.

15 Q. All right. So in May of 1991 --

16 A. Yes. I guess so because as of the 7th of May, 1992 the crisis

17 started. It was when the Serb police took over.

18 Q. Yes. Well, then two questions about this document. First of all,

19 it talks about an initiative for the establishment of a patriotic civic

20 front. What was that going to be?

21 A. Our intention was to gather all inhabitants of Kljuc who were

22 pro-Bosnian. We were not interested in ethnicity or religion. But all

23 inhabitants who is had Bosnia-Herzegovina in their hearts, to gather them

24 and to attempt through a reasonable discussion, a reasonable debate, to

25 convince them what would happen and to each try and do something to stop

1 the threat of war which was hovering over Kljuc and over the entire

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. It refers in paragraph 4 to a letter that was received by your

4 brother. Did your brother -- well, first of all, your brother. Did your

5 brother receive one letter or more than one letter?

6 A. My brother received several letters; so did I. We had telephone

7 threats, threats in the street when we were stopped occasionally. It

8 happened. At any moment there would be a threat. We would go to sleep at

9 night and the telephone would ring. There would be a threat that our

10 house would be blown up. But we were not frightened.

11 Q. Now, when you returned to Kljuc in, I think, 1996, did you find an

12 example of the type of letter that your brother was getting?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. I'd like you to have a look, please --

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this is a new document. I think Your

16 Honour has been provided with a copy. It bears the ERN number 02133004.

17 Can you give it to the witness, please.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And we'll stop here.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes. I'm going to deal with this letter and nothing

20 else, Your Honour.

21 Q. It's undated, but from the contents we can tell that it came later

22 than 1991. And does it read as follows: "Omer, you balija, 400 of my men

23 are in Vrbanja, Gornji Ratkovo, and Bravsko. This is because of your

24 behaviour towards the Serbian people and the setting up of barricades in

25 Pudin Han, Krasulje, Ramici, and Biljani. Under the command of Vojvoda --

1 which means "military leader" apparently -- Vojislav Seselj We have

2 organised a detachment of Chetnik volunteers which is headquartered in

3 Gornji Ratkovo. We'll fuck your Ustasha mother. We'll piss on

4 the Croatian chequer-board and the Muslim crescent. Western Serbia, the

5 illegal Serbian Chetnik movement [As read]."

6 Now, were the other letters that your brother and you received

7 couched -- expressed in the same terms?

8 A. Yes. Yes. The terms were more or less the same. The only thing

9 that I would say is that Vojvoda is not a military leader. It's just a

10 Chetnik title. It's the highest thing that a Chetnik could be, a

11 Vojvoda. It's not a rank.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, could that be made Prosecutor's

13 Exhibit -- 1099, I'm told.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we need to stop here for the day. We will

15 resume our -- on Monday.

16 MS. KORNER: The witness, Your Honour, I think at quarter to

17 3.00.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But I suppose that we need to explain to you.

19 We will be starting -- continuing with your evidence on Monday at -- and

20 not at quarter past 2.00 but at quarter past 3.00 because --

21 MS. KORNER: Quarter to 3.00.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Quarter to 3.00, sorry, because before you come in

23 we need to discuss a procedural matter, which we have postponing from

24 today.

25 In the meantime, please do try to have the transcript of whatever

1 you needed to.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, can I tell Your Honour that

3 arrangements have been made. The transcript will be available on Monday

4 morning.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's perfect.

6 MS. KORNER: In the light of Mr. Ackerman's suggestion, though, I

7 don't think it's possible to have a legal discussion without Your Honours

8 looking at it. But I'll have it available at court and then we can

9 discuss that part.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you all --

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The hearing will be at 2.15. Yes, the hearing

13 will be at 2.15. It's only the witness that need not be brought to stay

14 in the room an hour before. You know, I mean, it's -- so good afternoon

15 to everyone. Thank you. And have a nice weekend.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17 12.07 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday

18 the 2nd day of September, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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