Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9970

1 Wednesday, 25 September 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Talic not present]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes. Can you call the

7 case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

9 IT-99-36-T, is Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you hear me

11 in a language that --

12 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

13 I can hear you and I understand you.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner, assisted

17 by Susan Grogan case manager this morning replacing Denise Gustin.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you both.

19 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

20 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. My

21 name is Milan Trbojevic. My assistant is Ms. Jevtovic for Mr. Brdjanin.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And appearances for General Talic.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and

24 Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau for General Talic.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And we have his consent, obviously, for today's

Page 9971

1 sitting.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course, yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So are there any preliminaries before we bring

4 the witness in?

5 Okay. So usher -- where is the usher. He is already -- he has

6 already gone.

7 MS. KORNER: The only thing is, Your Honour, I obviously haven't

8 been able to speak -- I wasn't even aware whether he'd arrived or not.

9 I'm told he has. It may be that Your Honour wants to explain if he hasn't

10 already heard where General Talic is.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely I will, Ms. Korner. Thank you for

12 reminding me.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Filipovic, and welcome back

15 to --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- this Tribunal. You are familiar with the

18 procedure. I don't need to explain it again to you. Please proceed with

19 making the solemn declaration.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. You may sit down.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 9972

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Before we proceed with the cross-examination, let me

2 explain two very simple matters, two things. First of all, you remember

3 that the last time you were sitting on that chair I explained to you why

4 we had to cancel one sitting or start very late. The reason was that

5 General Talic had to be admitted to hospital at the same time. We didn't

6 even know that you were just being discharged from hospital, where you had

7 been for some treatment.

8 The position resulted ultimately to be one of much -- much more

9 serious than we had anticipated or we had an idea of at the time. General

10 Talic is seriously ill, and we've spent the last two weeks trying to find

11 out how best to deal with him and also to proceed with this case without

12 prejudicing the course of the trial.

13 We have agreed -- or we have decided to separate the two accused,

14 so this trial is going to continue against Mr. Brdjanin, and the trial

15 against General Talic will resume -- will continue if and when he is

16 physically fit to continue. But for the purpose of your evidence, your

17 testimony, since you had already started giving evidence and finished the

18 examination-in-chief and started already -- we were halfway through the

19 first of the two cross-examinations, it -- there was an agreement between

20 the Defence team for General Talic, the Prosecution, and also the Defence

21 team for Brdjanin that you will continue -- you will proceed with your

22 cross-examination, with your testimony, with General Talic still being in

23 this case. He will disappear from this case as soon as you finish your

24 testimony. But until you finish your testimony, he is in this case. He

25 can't be with us because he is sick. He is ill. And he is not in a

Page 9973

1 position to appear before any Tribunal for the time being. But he has

2 given his consent for you to -- and for you to continue giving evidence

3 and for us to continue hearing your evidence in his absence. So that's

4 what's going to happen today.

5 Also, Mr. Ackerman is not with us today, and the cross-examination

6 which he had started will be continued by -- proceeded with by

7 Mr. Trbojevic. And after that, Mr. Zecevic or Madam Fauveau, on behalf of

8 General Talic, will proceed with their cross-examination for

9 General Talic.

10 Have I made myself clear to you? Do you have any questions?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But the only thing I would like

12 to say is that I can't hear that well. The earphones don't seem to be

13 perfect.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: The last thing obviously is it's -- it's incumbent

15 on me as President of this Trial Chamber to express our regret and offer

16 our apologies for any inconvenience all this may have caused to you. We

17 realised that there were days where you had to wait endless hours, and

18 this was no fun at all, and I am sure it brought you some discomfort and

19 some inconvenience, for which we are sorry and please accept our

20 apologies. Hopefully by Friday at the latest all this will be over and

21 you should be able to return back to your country. I thank you.

22 Mr. Trbojevic.

23 Incidentally, even my earphones -- it's as if there is a

24 continuous or recurring short-circuit somewhere. No, no. It's not a

25 question of volume. It's a question of -- we can proceed. I don't want

Page 9974

1 to stop. But I do have these interferences more or less -- thank you.

2 Mr. Trbojevic, you don't need to introduce yourself or anything.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Trbojevic: [Continued]

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Filipovic.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. When you started giving testimony, on one occasion you said that

9 you had been informed that Mr. Brdjanin -- you said he requested a

10 structure of the government in the municipality. Could you explain this,

11 please. What does it refer to?

12 A. I couldn't say exactly how this happened. All I can say is that

13 he came around 1991. I don't know the exact date. I know that at that

14 time a document that had been signed by Mr. Brdjanin arrived, and in that

15 document he was wondering how the SDS would establish power, would set up

16 power. We didn't have that document. We weren't able to see that

17 document, but we found out that this had arrived through people who were

18 aware of these things in the world. And as events unfolded, on the basis

19 of the events, I -- it's my opinion that it said that the SDS should keep

20 the police in that document, the Secretariat of National Defence, the

21 tax -- inland revenue, the post office. So it was necessary to divide

22 power after the first multi-party elections. So I assume that it referred

23 to this.

24 Q. So that could have been at the beginning of 1991, when power was

25 established in the municipality.

Page 9975

1 A. From halfway through that year. I don't know the exact date, but

2 I know it was in 1991.

3 Q. The elections were in 1990.

4 A. That's correct.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down and make a pause

6 between the question and answer.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Trbojevic.


9 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, the usual problem when both of you are

10 speaking Serbo-Croat: You don't give each other a chance, a pause before

11 one proceeds with the question or one proceeds with the answer. The

12 interpreters need a pause each time one of you starts speaking. Okay?

13 And slow down, both of you, please. Thank you. Please proceed.

14 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I'm not going ask you in more detail about that document, since,

16 as you say, you haven't seen it. But my client has asked me to deny that

17 claim because he says that he never signed such a document.

18 A. That's your problem and the problem of your client. You have the

19 right to claim whatever you like.

20 Q. We won't go into a dispute. This is going to be the Prosecution's

21 affair. The Prosecution will have to prove this.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes.

23 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Similarly, at the beginning of your testimony -- it's page 9392 of

25 the transcript -- you mentioned the barracks in Laniste.

Page 9976

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. For the Knin Corps. And in that context, you claimed that it was

3 on the authorisation of the organs of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you explain what the basis for this claim is.

6 A. All I can explain to you is by putting a question to you.

7 Mr. Ackerman preceded you, so someone must have told you about this

8 four-storey building without anyone's authorisation cannot be

9 constructed. And Kljuc, as a town, is not rich enough to construct such a

10 building, so someone must have authorised it. It must have come from the

11 top levels and the resources must have been secured.

12 Q. I can't answer your question. I'm not allowed to answer your

13 question. But I would like to draw your attention to the fact that when

14 you say someone had to authorise this, why should that someone be the

15 Autonomous Region of Krajina, since permits for construction would be

16 issued in the municipality.

17 A. That building didn't have a permit for construction, and there was

18 no authorisation. That building was built illegally, let's say. It

19 hadn't been authorised. And believe me, the resources for the

20 construction of that building didn't come from Sarajevo nor from Zagreb.

21 They could only have come from Banja Luka or from Belgrade.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Please -- you're doing the same thing that

23 Mr. Trbojevic has been doing. When he finishes his question, allow just a

24 couple of seconds before you start answering the -- giving your answer,

25 because otherwise, the interpreters will have a difficulty. I mean, I

Page 9977

1 can -- I can see how difficult it is for them already to keep pace with

2 you, with the speed of the exchange of question and answer that is going

3 on. Slow down, both of you, please.

4 Yes, proceed.

5 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. In the statement that you gave on the 24th of May, 1997 to the

7 investigators of the Prosecution, you said that at a meeting your brother

8 thanked the Serbs for having organised themselves politically because that

9 provided the opportunity to the Bosniaks. That's what you said more or

10 less.

11 A. That's correct. That wasn't just at some meeting. That was on

12 the founding Assembly of the SDS in Kljuc. And Radovan Karadzic was

13 present at that same meeting. That was on the terrace of the Lana

14 restaurant.

15 Q. Very well. But on the basis of this, at that time the Bosniaks

16 had not organised themselves politically yet.

17 A. The Bosniaks were politically organised but you yourself were well

18 aware of the times we were living in. It was necessary for someone to

19 make the first move. We allowed the Serbs to do that because the Serbs --

20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. You also explained that you were in favour

21 of the Municipality of Kljuc entering the community of Municipalities of

22 Bosnian Krajina but you weren't in favour of it entering the Autonomous

23 Region of Krajina, and the reasons you provided were that that would mean

24 Serb domination, Orthodox domination, the use of the Cyrillic script, et

25 cetera.

Page 9978

1 A. That's correct. Because that first region is one thing, the

2 region of the Municipalities of Bosnian Krajina. And the Autonomous

3 Region of Bosnian Krajina is another thing, because we knew that -- we

4 knew what the first thing was and we knew what the second thing was,

5 because earlier on we were in the Jajce region and it was all the same to

6 us whether we would be in the Jajce region, the Banja Luka region, the

7 Prijedor region. It was all the same to us. But as far as the Autonomous

8 Region of Bosnian Krajina is concerned in which the Serbs were expected to

9 be the dominant people and the Cyrillic script was to be in use and the

10 religion was to be the Orthodox religion, as far as this is concerned, as

11 far as all this being in the first place, we were against that.

12 Q. But the territory of the Autonomous Region is the same as the

13 Municipality of Banja Luka, the region of the Communities of

14 Municipalities in Banja Luka.

15 A. Yes, it's the say. In geographical terms, it's the same.

16 Q. The same people.

17 A. I agree with you completely, in geographical terms, in terms of

18 the people, yes, it's the same. But in the first territory, there would

19 be both Bosniaks and Croats, and in the Autonomous Region there were only

20 the Serbs, regardless of the fact that in geographical terms the territory

21 was the same.

22 Q. Did someone express this or put it down on paper?

23 A. Well, it was well known. It was well known, because from Kljuc

24 there were no delegates from Kljuc in the Autonomous Region of Bosnian

25 Krajina. There were no Muslims or Croats, no Muslim or Croat delegates,

Page 9979

1 only Serbs, whereas in the other region there were both Muslims and ...

2 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask

3 a question. I have no copies, but this is the title of an article and

4 later this will be evidence for the Defence, and it shall later on be

5 translated. May I do this?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] You've had two weeks --

7 no. I won't allow you to do that. If you haven't circulated it before,

8 there is no justification -- I see no reason why you should bring this

9 document out now at the eleventh hour, surprising everyone. Forget the

10 witness, because the witness has no right to see the documents

11 beforehand. But the Prosecution -- at least the Prosecution should know

12 what document we're talking about. I mean, they have facilities to have

13 it translated to them, but -- we're talking of a document which we don't

14 understand, I don't understand, the Prosecution doesn't understand, my

15 colleagues don't understand, and you're handing -- you expect to hand it

16 over to the witness, ask questions on it, without copies being available

17 here and now.

18 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] That's not a problem.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Have it -- have it photocopied. Have it distributed

20 in good time. And then towards the end of your cross-examination perhaps

21 you would -- we would be in a position to allow you to put the question.

22 But not like this. No, definitely not.

23 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.

24 All I wanted was to read a title which consists of five words and ask

25 whether the gentleman here wrote this down, nothing else. And all of

Page 9980

1 these other things, I would have done them subsequently, of course. But I

2 shall do as you said.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

4 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In your statement, you said that your brother was buried in a

6 graveyard. Some other witnesses mentioned the Sehidsko graveyard. Could

7 you translate this for us and tell us what language it's in.

8 A. I will ask you where. Where was he buried?

9 Q. You said your brother was buried in Banja Luka, that the wives

10 were present, his wife and Ivan Bender's wife, that they were taken then

11 to the graveyard in Kljuc.

12 A. He was buried in the graveyard in Banja Luka. I have a

13 certificate about my brother's death.

14 Q. That's not in dispute.

15 A. Yes, it is, because in -- according to one story, he died of a

16 natural death, but the doctor established that he had been killed.

17 Q. This is not in dispute.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me bring you both to order, because you're

19 running off at a tangent, both of you. The question that was put to you

20 and which I would like you to answer is -- was this: In your statement,

21 you said that your brother was buried in a graveyard. Some other

22 witnesses mentioned the Sehidsko graveyard. Could you translate this for

23 us. Tell us what language it's in. What does the word "Sehidsko" mean to

24 you? First of all, what language is that, does that word belong?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means, if we translate it into

Page 9981

1 your language -- Mezarje is a cemetery for citizens of merit, citizens who

2 have merited of certain privileges in that society. And because of this,

3 they have a special grave. For example, in a given state, the Queen will

4 be buried in a special place, the Prime Minister, et cetera, will have a

5 special grave. So the Sehidsko Mezarje in the Bosnian language means

6 cemetery for people who have merited something more than other citizens.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is a purely etymologically Bosnian word, a

8 Bosnian word.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I don't think it is necessary to proceed with

11 questions on who was present during the exhumation and --

12 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] No, no, it's not.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So you got your answer and perhaps you can

14 proceed.

15 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] No, no.

16 Q. I just wanted to know which language these words came from.

17 A. Probably from Turkish. These are words that were appropriated by

18 the Bosnian language.

19 Q. That's all I wanted to know; nothing else.

20 You said that the Crisis Staff, of which you and your brother were

21 a member, was formed in the second half of 1991.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could we conclude that that was one of the first Crisis Staffs in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. I wouldn't say so.

Page 9982

1 Q. But it's not in dispute that in 1991 this preceded the Crisis

2 Staffs which were founded in 1992.

3 You mentioned the adoption of a decision on the foundation of the

4 Bosnian Municipality of Kljuc. As far as I have understood, that also

5 took place in 1991.

6 A. Yes. But I would just like to correct you. It wasn't the

7 Bosniak, but the Bosnian Kljuc.

8 Q. Very well. And that was before the decision was adopted on

9 proclaiming the Serbian Municipality of Kljuc.

10 A. The Serbs de facto proclaimed it, but it wasn't on paper. But

11 from the first multi-party elections onwards, the Serbs in Kljuc formed

12 the Serbian Municipality of Kljuc, but it hadn't been put down on paper

13 because everything was under the sign of the Serbs and the SDS as of 1990,

14 from the time we split.

15 Q. But in that municipality in 1991 you participated in this.

16 A. Yes, we participated in it. And to a large extent we always left

17 sessions when an agenda would be imposed that didn't suit us, but yes, you

18 could say that in terms of the documents that exist, we made the first

19 move and we were the first ones to proclaim the Bosnian Municipality of

20 Kljuc.

21 Q. And you formed the Patriotic League.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the Territorial Defence.

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be

Page 9983

1 shown the exhibit of the Prosecution P877.

2 Q. I would like you to pay attention to the last paragraph on page 1

3 and the first two lines on page 2.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Trbojevic, can you read them in your language so

5 that at least we can follow -- we can have them translated and we can

6 follow, because we can only -- only look at the version in English.

7 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. This is a letter

8 by the SDS in Kljuc, dated 26th of February, 1992, and it is addressed to

9 the SDS, Serbian Democratic Party of BH, and is about the election of

10 judges in the municipality of Kljuc. Here it is alleged that during the

11 division of power in the municipality, the position of the president of

12 the court was given to the SDA, Party of Democratic Action. So the

13 position of the president of the court was given to the SDA, which at the

14 time when this letter was written was there, and so it says "In addition

15 to the president of the court, another judge of Muslim nationality is

16 currently working at the court. So the appointment of additional two

17 judges of Muslim nationality to this important state organ would

18 completely disrupt ethnic equality."

19 JUDGE AGIUS: What's your question, Mr. Trbojevic?

20 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Just one more sentence, please,

21 I'd like to read.

22 Q. "For this reason, we propose that only one judge of Muslim

23 nationality be appointed to the basic court."

24 And my question to the witness: Is that correct that the

25 president of the court was a Muslim, a Bosniak?

Page 9984

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreter didn't hear the name. Did any one

4 of you mention a name?

5 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not interested in a name.


7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the president -- that

8 the president of the Court was Dzemal Botenic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Is that correct that there was a proposal to elect a further two

12 judges?

13 A. It wasn't a proposal, but there was a competition. There was an

14 advertisement for two vacant posts of judges. And among others, as far as

15 I know, Nihad Filipovic also applied, and the judges were supposed to be

16 appointed by the Assembly of BH. So what they did was they replied to the

17 advertisement. And as far as I know, one of these people who applied was

18 Nihad Filipovic.

19 Q. Okay. That's enough.

20 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] We don't need that exhibit any

21 more.

22 I would like the witness to be shown the Prosecution Exhibit P878.

23 Your Honour, in the English version it's on the first page beneath

24 the agenda, in the first paragraph of the agenda. It starts with:

25 "Briefing by Veljko Kondic." And then what's been said is that the Prime

Page 9985

1 Minister Designate is Nikola Erceg.

2 I'd like the witness to have a look at the text which is below the

3 agenda, under 81. If he can read. It's quite difficult to read, under

4 B.

5 Q. "The Assembly of the AP of Banja Luka was held, where there were

6 opinions that the Republic of Bosnian Krajina should be formed, but it was

7 understood that this was not the time for that. He then talked about the

8 conference regarding BH and cantonisation. All revenues would belong to

9 the region. The national bank would be based in Banja Luka. The Prime

10 Minister Designate Nikola Erceg was elected," and so on. That's what it

11 says.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, for the record, Ms. Korner, I hope

13 that the correct word was cantonisation, because in the English version it

14 is "cannonisation," and I think we are far from having reached that stage.

15 MS. KORNER: I agree, Your Honour.

16 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I said "cantonisation."

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

18 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I have a question for you.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Someone is reporting here to Veljko Kondic at the session of the

22 executive board of the municipal board of the SDS. It can be seen here

23 from the header. Did you know about the session in Banja Luka on the 6th

24 of March, 1992?

25 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. Just a moment. Did Mr. Trbojevic say

Page 9986

1 reporting to Veljko Kondic?


3 MS. KORNER: Because my understanding -- I'm just wondering if

4 that is a mistranslation.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know, but that's what I have.

6 MS. KORNER: It is reporting by Mr. Kondic to the Crisis Staff --

7 or to the -- sorry, to the municipal board.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Trbojevic. You've heard what Ms. Korner

9 has just stated. The translation that we had was someone is reporting

10 here to Veljko Kondic. Is it someone is here reporting to Veljko Kondic

11 or someone -- or Veljko Kondic is reporting to someone? What did you

12 actually state?

13 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I read, as it said in the minutes,

14 and it says that Veljko Kondic is the one reporting at the session of the

15 executive board. That's what it says.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that goes down for the record. Thank you.

17 You may proceed.

18 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So what I'm asking the witness is did they know about this meeting

20 and these discussions?

21 A. I did not know specifically about this meeting, but I can tell the

22 Chamber that there wasn't a day that went by that the representatives went

23 to Banja Luka for a meeting. But I don't know specifically about this

24 one.

25 Q. I'm more interested whether was this known. Were there talks

Page 9987

1 about these plans that the Krajina ARK should have a bank in Banja Luka

2 that would be based in Banja Luka?

3 A. Yes, it was known. I said that in my previous testimony. That

4 means, financial means were directed in that direction to Banja Luka

5 through the public accounting service. So if I pay tax, me as a citizen,

6 the tax would not go to Sarajevo. It would go to Banja Luka. So all the

7 financial means through the SDK, the public accounting service, would be

8 going to Banja Luka. But specifically about this meeting, I don't know.

9 Q. Could I ask you to check whether in these minutes, could you

10 please check that there is no mention of Radoslav Brdjanin here in any

11 context.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there's no need for the witness to check

13 that, quite honestly. If there was mention, it would be in the

14 translation.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... agrees that

16 there's no mention of your client in this document. So next question,

17 please.

18 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. We'll go back to 1991. You mentioned helicopters that were

20 distributing weapons around villages. So I have to ask you whether you

21 were an eyewitness of this.

22 A. I saw helicopters flying. I saw helicopters landing. But I was

23 not there, so that I can say that a helicopter landed. But people did

24 come to me and say, "A helicopter landed in the village of Ljubine and

25 they were unloading something," and I did see helicopters. A helicopter

Page 9988

1 is not a fly so that you fail to see it. A helicopter would fly and then

2 suddenly it would land. All the helicopters were olive-drab colour, so

3 these were military helicopters.

4 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like the witness to be shown

5 P880.

6 Q. I'm interested at the bottom of the page, and I will tell you

7 exactly. The last third of the page, I think that this is Djuro Trninic,

8 if I can say.

9 A. I think that's Djuro Trninic.

10 Q. It says: There are not many weapons or ammunition. And this is

11 again the session of the executive board of the SDS. And at the end of the

12 page, Djuro Trninic says there is a lack of weapons.

13 A. I think this is Dragan Babic. As far as I can see, that's Drago

14 Djukic.

15 Q. In the very last sentence, it says there is a shortage of weapons.

16 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

17 Q. It's Drago Djukic.

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. And on the second page, there is a name, Milenko Mackic is saying

20 there is a lack of weapons. Do you agree with me that it says that here?

21 A. Yes, I agree.

22 Q. And that's 12th of March, 1992.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] We don't need the exhibit any

Page 9989

1 more. I would like to ask that the witness be shown Exhibit P882.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to ask

3 something, if I may. The counsel is now finding some documents where I'm

4 just supposed to confirm what it says, what is written. But when they had

5 their sessions, when they held their sessions, they could have written

6 anything. It says here what they did in minutes, but they could have said

7 there's a lack of weapons. Maybe they needed weapons to arm a battalion

8 and they had enough for a company. So I'm just wondering. These are

9 minutes from sessions.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's perfectly legitimate. I mean, it's difficult

11 for me to -- to explain all this to you, but it is a perfectly regular

12 question. You are being shown a document, and you're just being asked to

13 confirm that the particular document does contain this -- this or that

14 particular statement. That's all. You're not being asked to comment on

15 the merits of what is contained -- or what is stated in that document. So

16 don't worry about it. Just answer the question.

17 Yes, Ms. Korner.

18 MS. KORNER: Although, Your Honour, actually what's happening is

19 not really cross-examination at all.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. But what is the alternative, Ms. Korner?

21 MS. KORNER: Because particularly with the time --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. I've been thinking about that all along since

23 we started. What's the alternative? You tell me what's the alternative

24 is.

25 MS. KORNER: The alternative is Mr. Trbojevic puts questions which

Page 9990

1 challenge what the witness has said, if that's what his case is.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Mr. Trbojevic knows exactly what he should

3 be doing.

4 Anyway, please proceed, Mr. Trbojevic, and try to ask questions

5 that are of utility or which goes straight to the heart of the case of the

6 Prosecution.

7 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness is

8 claiming that Serb villages were armed, and I'm showing a document where

9 it says that there was a lack of weapons, that there was a shortage.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But Mr. Trbojevic, the same exhibit that you have

11 just referred to, Exhibit P880, towards the very end of it there's Veljko

12 Kondic, who is reported here, at least on this document, without prejudice

13 to the authenticity of otherwise of this document, because I wouldn't like

14 to comment about that, but it says "We will undertake to get additional

15 weapons. I have no note that not everything is finished yet. We have to

16 start keeping records immediately. All documents are to be brought by the

17 next meeting." So -- do you want a confirmation of this from -- from the

18 gentleman in the witness stand? I mean, come on. Let's -- let's go

19 straight -- this is why I'm telling you lest -- I'm not in the habit of

20 stopping anyone. As much as I can, I try to avoid that. But on the other

21 hand, a cross-examination is a cross-examination. Let's get it over and

22 done with.

23 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask that the witness

24 be shown Exhibit P882, please.

25 Q. You have already seen this document. This is a report of the 13th

Page 9991

1 Partisan Brigade, dated 23rd of March, 1992. On page 2 there is an

2 assessment. It's about halfway on the page, that in the areas of

3 responsibility that there are many paramilitary formations, and for the

4 Kljuc municipality it says that there are two companies in Kljuc; in

5 Sanica, there's one battalion; in Krasulje, there are two companies. In

6 your testimony, you said this was not true, and I'd like to ask you

7 whether it was possible that it is completely untrue. Is it completely

8 untrue that these formations were not there?

9 A. I still claim this is not true, because this is the document in

10 the time period the beginning of 1992 when all officers who were Muslims

11 and Croats were taken out, taken off. I used to be a captain in the

12 brigade. At that time we were all stopped being officers. And at the

13 meeting I said, "Why are only Muslims and Croats being demoted? Why have

14 they stopped being officers? Why is not Vinko Kondic being stopped from

15 being an officer?" And I am saying that this is not at all true that the

16 municipality of Kljuc had two companies, that Sanica had one battalion, if

17 Krasulje had two companies. If this was true, then we would never have

18 been expelled from Kljuc.

19 Q. Very well.

20 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask that the witness

21 be shown Defence Exhibit DB96. 96, please. And a copy for the witness,

22 please. The witness doesn't have a copy.

23 Do you have a statement in our language?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is English.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Chuqing, please. Because we are wasting time.

Page 9992

1 THE REGISTRAR: I think the witness already had a copy in front of

2 him.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. Give it to him and let's proceed.

4 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. This is a statement by Ismet Muratagic dated 25th of June, 1992.

6 You don't have to read it all. Do you know Ismet Muratagic?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. In his statement he said that he led a group --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: If you -- Mr. Trbojevic, if you're going to ask any

10 question to the witness referring to any particular part of this document,

11 then please tell us which part, so that he's given the opportunity to read

12 it before you put the question. And depending on the question, I may have

13 to decide to give him the opportunity to read the whole document, if that

14 is the case.

15 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I asked the witness whether he

16 knew the man who had given this statement.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But that's not what -- that's not what I

18 asked you. I asked you if you are going to refer to any particular

19 paragraph, then please indicate the paragraph to the witness so -- and to

20 us so that we go straight to that paragraph.

21 In the meantime, perhaps Mr. Filipovic, you can answer the

22 question do you know Ismet Muratagic. Do you know him?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I answered affirmatively.

24 Yes, I do know him. Yes.

25 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9993

1 Q. On page 2 of this statement, the witness said that he was at a

2 meeting where the witness and his brother also attended, Asim Egrlic,

3 Ibrahim Egrlic and many others. That's not important. Could you confirm

4 that this is true?

5 A. Yes, it's true.

6 Q. You said true?

7 A. Yes, I said it's true.

8 Q. I will also ask you to look on page 4, on the second paragraph in

9 which the person is describing a certain event. And he said, "I returned

10 again to the position, to the village of Bajrami, and at about 10.00

11 hours, an official police car came, and behind it there was a white van

12 and they stopped before the barricade. At the moment when the cars -- the

13 vehicles were being stopped and started to get out of them, fire was

14 opened on them from the positions without anyone giving an order, and so

15 he describes the firing -- the shooting. And at the end of the paragraph,

16 he says -- in the last three lines, he says: "I noticed that by the

17 roadside several metres behind the police vehicle there was a body of a

18 policeman that was lying down, while the others weren't around," and so

19 on.

20 In relation to the same incident, on the next page, it says -- and

21 this is top of the page -- that "Looking for those people who have

22 scattered, they found wounded Zeljko Despot." Have you found that part?

23 A. Despot Zeljko.

24 Q. In the -- at the top of the page. At the top of this page.

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 9994

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we proceed with the question.

2 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. The question that I want to put to the witness is: Do you know

4 anything about this event?

5 A. I know nothing about this event. All I know is that I think that

6 on the 27th of May this conflict broke out. That's all I know. And I

7 also know that, because Vinko insisted, because men from Krasulje wouldn't

8 allow the body of Dusan to be taken out. So Vinko asked for Omer because

9 they said that no one could approach without Omer's permission. And I know

10 that Omer and Vinko went there together then.

11 Q. Was this Despot wounded? Do you know about that?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. All I know is what happened to Dusan Stojakovic.

15 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] We won't be needing this document

16 any longer.

17 Could you now show the witness Defence Exhibit DB95.

18 Q. Is this an order from the MUP, the Ministry of the Interior, in

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina dated the 29th of April, 1992?

20 A. Well, it appears to be so. But it should have a signature and a

21 stamp. Anyone could have typed this. But I think it is because --

22 Q. Was the minister the minister at the time?

23 A. Yes. But for a document to be valid, it needs a signature and a

24 stamp. But I think it is correct. I have no idea though.

25 Q. It says "I order," under 1. "Totally obstruct all roads in the

Page 9995

1 territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in which units of the

2 former JNA have started pulling out materiel and equipment."

3 Under item 2: "Larger areas with military installations from

4 which they are trying to pull out materiel and equipment are to be

5 blocked," et cetera, et cetera.

6 Under item 3: "Unannounced convoys of former JNA units and

7 convoys without MUP escort shall not be allowed to leave the barracks or

8 to communicate within the territory of the Republic of BH."

9 And under item 4, it says: "The planning and launching of combat

10 activities throughout the territory of the Republic of BH is to be

11 accelerated and these activities are to be coordinated with the

12 Territorial Defence staffs of the region, district, and the Republic of

13 BH."

14 And it's been signed by the minister, Alija Delimustafic. And the

15 date was the 29th of April, 1992. Is that what it says, sir?

16 A. Yes, that's what it says.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] We don't need this document any

19 more.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Here Mr. Trbojevic, I need to censor you, because

21 this is not the way to deal with such an item or such a matter in -- upon

22 cross-examination. I mean, it's -- we don't need the witness to tell us

23 that this document says what you have read out. We just have to refer to

24 the document, read it, and that's it. I mean, if anything, you ask the

25 witness whether he can confirm whether he is -- was aware of this

Page 9996

1 document, whether he's seen it before, whether he has anything to state

2 about it, but not whether it says what you have read. I mean, you don't

3 need the witness to confirm that.

4 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour. I

5 should have asked the witness whether he had received this order.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

7 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Or rather, whether this order

8 arrived in the Crisis Staff of which he was a member.

9 A. That's a question for me, is it? As I said earlier on in my

10 testimony, we didn't receive that order. The first time I saw that order

11 was ten days ago here in The Hague. I'm not saying that this order wasn't

12 sent somewhere, but we in Kljuc did not receive it. We weren't able to

13 get it. With regard to the 29th of April, at that time in Kljuc we were

14 practically under SDS occupation.

15 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] The witness denies that he is

16 familiar with this. I have -- I can't ask him any further questions about

17 this document now.

18 Q. We'll now return to your testimony, according to which Bosniak

19 policemen refused to sign a pledge of loyalty for the new police force.

20 You said something to that effect.

21 A. [No audible response]

22 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown

23 Prosecution Exhibit 889.

24 Q. This is a document which was signed by Milos on the 24th of

25 April, 1992. Were you aware of someone who used the pseudonym Milos?

Page 9997

1 A. I don't know whether this is a pseudonym. It could be the

2 person's name, because there are several Miloses in Kljuc.

3 Q. Do you know who wrote this?

4 A. No, I couldn't tell you, because there are several Miloses.

5 Q. In his opinion, according to this document, there is a serious

6 danger that members of the Green Berets might launch an attack against the

7 police station in order to obtain weapons. Were there any such plans?

8 A. There were no such plans. This was just an attempt for the

9 weapons of the Territorial Defence to be taken from the people, because

10 the Territorial Defence is the people's defence, so those weapons that

11 belonged to the Territorial Defence belonged to all of us. But the MUP,

12 the Ministry of the Interior, fabricated this.

13 Q. Did any of the weapons belonging to the Territorial Defence end up

14 in, so to speak, Bosniak hands?

15 A. Well, the sad truth is that none of the weapons of the former JNA

16 and the Territorial Defence, none of those weapons ended up in the hands

17 of the other peoples, apart from the Serbs. And all of us from 1945 up

18 until 1992 financed the JNA from our own resources.

19 Q. You're sure of this.

20 A. Yes, I'm sure of what I have said and what I said earlier on in my

21 testimony. We bought weapons with our own money from soldiers who were

22 returning from Kupres, and we would pay between 1.000 and 2.000 German

23 marks for an automatic rifle. So those are the weapons that ended up in

24 our hands, the ones we paid for.

25 Q. With regard to this pledge of loyalty to the police, what was so

Page 9998

1 problematic? What was necessary to sign, what kind of a pledge?

2 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... leaving this

3 document, Your Honours may recall that all documents signed by Milos have

4 been the subject of an allegation, that they're all forgeries. I just

5 want to get clear what the Defence is saying about this document. Is it

6 suggested that on this occasion this document is accurate? Because I'd

7 like to know if that's the case.

8 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I was asking the witness whether

9 he knew who used that name or that pseudonym, and I also asked him whether

10 what has been alleged in that document corresponds to the way that the

11 Crisis Staff behaved, the Crisis Staff of which the gentleman was a

12 member. I asked nothing else. And in this way, we might have obtained

13 certain information that would have enabled us to assess the validity of

14 this.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, we are neither here nor there, Ms. Korner, and

16 I think we better leave it at that. Put in a different phraseology, sort

17 of suggesting that he's done all this without prejudice to --

18 Let's go ahead. You were asking the witness a question with

19 regard to the oath of allegiance or loyalty that -- and your question was,

20 if I recall well, what was so objectionable or ...?

21 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Problematic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, what was problematic about this requirement or

23 request.

24 Yes, Mr. Filipovic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I know, I know what

Page 9999

1 was problematic with regard to the other two peoples who refused to serve

2 in that police force. I haven't had access to the oath, and I'm not

3 familiar with the text of the oath, but I know what was contested, what

4 was problematic. These were the marks of the police which was formed by

5 Serbs and Muslims and Croats too at the time. The police had insignia

6 which belonged to Tito's police. They had the five-cornered star.

7 However, all these insignia, all the insignia of Yugoslavia were being

8 removed, and up until that point in time the police force was a Yugoslav

9 police force, because we were -- up until then, we lived in a common state

10 in the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia. But the insignia were

11 removed.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already explained this in his previous

13 testimony.

14 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, he has.

15 Q. And could you tell us, is it common practice for the police to

16 take an oath when they enter service?

17 A. Yes, I think so. Just like it's common practice for a soldier to

18 take an oath. In my opinion, the police would have to take an oath too.

19 I'm not a policeman, but that's my opinion.

20 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Defence

21 Exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit 967.

22 Q. It's a diary, the diary of someone whose name is Ilija Buvac.

23 MS. KORNER: Well, the witness has already given evidence about

24 who this man is, so perhaps we can move directly to the question.

25 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10000

1 Q. In the diary, the date, the 26th of May. The date has been

2 printed out. In the third paragraph, it says: "As there was no

3 electricity from 1640 hours --" it should probably say "hours," although

4 it's not clear -- "we could not listen to the radio and the television has

5 not been working for several days." Have you found that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that what it says?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The next date is the 27th of May. And the second paragraph says:

10 "During breakfast, Mile Babic, son of Joso," if I see this correctly,

11 "called us on the phone and informed us that there was shooting in

12 Krasulje and he wanted to know about Sveto. He had called him in

13 Velagici --" basically they say that the policeman Milos Kecman was

14 wounded and Dusan Stojakovic, another policeman, was killed. Can you see

15 that? Do you know anything about Kecman and when he was killed?

16 A. Kecman wasn't killed. He was wounded. Stojakovic was killed.

17 Q. Yes, did you know that Kecman was wounded?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The next date is Thursday, the 28th of May. In the lower half, it

20 says: "Around 1800 hours an attack was carried out on Kljuc from the

21 Sarica, Mehmedagica and Sarica Brdo sectors. There were no wounded, no

22 casualties." Is that what it says?

23 A. That's what it says. But when I gave testimony, I said on the day

24 I was taken from the police station at 1800 hours, I can claim for sure

25 that that was not an attack. The people shooting were Serbian soldiers.

Page 10001

1 Q. The next date, Friday, the 29th, the very first sentence: "Around

2 0400 hours the hospital in Kljuc was attacked once again." You weren't

3 present then, were you?

4 A. No, I wasn't.

5 Q. The 30th of May, the penultimate paragraph: "Around 1800 hours

6 there was firing around Cuko's house, but it quickly stopped. There was

7 also firing around the Brsac house and around the house of Cedo Acimovic.

8 Ibro Adzamovic from Rejzovici was killed there, although he had not

9 participated in combat." Do you know about this?

10 A. I know about Ibro's death. I know about these three places where

11 these people had been mentioned, I know that no one else could have fired

12 apart from the Serbian forces, because this is the very centre of Kljuc.

13 Cedo Acimovic's house and the house where Ilija lives and Brsac's house,

14 that's in the very centre of Kljuc. So a member of the armed forces of

15 the Serbian army would have taken an automatic rifle and fired, attacked

16 the Green Berets. They would then say the Green Berets had attacked and

17 they would take a few people to the camp.

18 Q. The next date we are interested in is Wednesday, the 3rd of June.

19 The last sentence: "Today the electricity was cut off and there was no

20 electricity during the night either." Is that what it says?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thursday, the 4th of June, the second sentence: "Since there is

23 no electricity, the phones are not working. We are getting water from the

24 systems," et cetera.

25 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. Is the question: Do you agree there was

Page 10002

1 no electricity on these dates? Because if so, why didn't you ask it?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. We're still waiting for the question,

3 actually, Mr. Trbojevic.

4 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness

5 whether these statements about the electricity supply being cut off were

6 correct.

7 A. I couldn't say, because at the time I was in prison in Stara

8 Gradiska.

9 Q. Very well. You mentioned the takeover of the repeater, the TV

10 repeater in Kozara.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. My question is: Was the damage to the transmitter on Ravnicki

13 Kamen organised by your Crisis Staff?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you know about that event?

16 A. No, I didn't. All I know is that when this happened, I know that

17 I was happy, because I couldn't watch the second channel of Belgrade

18 television, which to a very large extent contributed to everything that

19 had happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. Let's return to Mr. Brdjanin. In the first statement you gave -

21 there are four statements - you gave your first statement in Manjaca, and

22 you don't refer to him, you don't mention his name in any context

23 whatsoever; is that correct?

24 A. Whose name? Brdjanin's?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 10003

1 A. As far as I know, I didn't mention him. But in Manjaca, I

2 couldn't even mention myself.

3 Q. You mentioned Vojo Kupresanin.

4 A. I mentioned Kupresanin because he was there. But I said that I

5 hadn't seen Brdjanin.

6 Q. You gave the statement on the 24th of May, 1997 to investigators

7 of the Prosecution.

8 A. That's something else. You should have asked me whether in the

9 course of my stay in Manjaca -- whether it was in the course of my stay or

10 later on.

11 Q. I could show you this, but it's not necessary to waste time.

12 A. But we understand each other now. Yes, I gave a statement after

13 the war. And at the time I claimed, and I still claim so today, I claimed

14 that I didn't see Mr. Brdjanin.

15 Q. You didn't mention him in that statement.

16 A. No. And I didn't see him, and I can't lie.

17 Q. You gave a statement on the 17th of May, 1992, and you didn't

18 mention Brdjanin -- 17th of May, 2000 -- and to the Prosecution on the

19 13th of May, 2001. At that time Mr. Brdjanin was in detention, and you

20 didn't mention him on that occasion either.

21 A. Well, why should I mention him, since I didn't see him?

22 Q. Is it possible that no one asked about him, no one -- none of the

23 investigators for the Prosecution asked about him?

24 A. That's possible. That's possible they didn't ask about him. For

25 example, I remember very well --

Page 10004

1 Q. If someone had asked you, you would have said "I have nothing to

2 say about him."

3 A. They asked me whom I had seen and I said I had seen Vojo

4 Kupresanin.

5 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank

6 you very much.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: That brings us to the first break. And with your

8 indulgence -- do you require half an hour or -- 20, 25 minutes would be

9 enough, Mr. Zecevic?

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm perfectly fine -- I'm prepared,

11 so --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The idea, Mr. Zecevic, is to try to economise on

13 time so that we could possibly finish by tomorrow.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honour. And I'm sure that we

15 will finish by end of tomorrow.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So 20 to 25 minutes' break. Okay?

17 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. One -- Your Honour, one

21 thing before I start: The witness has shown that he brought some

22 documents. I assume it's a death certificate and a forensic report which

23 he claims is --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We have it already, I think, in the -- in the

25 records. No? If I remember well, when Dr. -- what's his name -- was

Page 10005

1 giving evidence here, he gave evidence on the certificate that he was

2 asked to release regarding the death of Omer Filipovic and the other -- if

3 I remember well. I mean, I may be wrong. But I think --

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that was

5 Witness Enis Sabanovic, and in fact he did say that he issued the

6 certificate. But we didn't see it at that time. There was no

7 certificate.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't know if that would be appropriate, but we

9 would like to see the document if the -- from the Prosecutor doesn't

10 object to it. And maybe we can do it while I am conducting the

11 cross-examination. Maybe it can be copied.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

13 I mean, Mr. Filipovic, did you bring over with you a copy of your

14 brother's death certificate or any related -- other related document?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I brought a death

16 certificate issued in Banja Luka, and I also brought a record on

17 investigation from 1998 November, when I had my late brother's body

18 exhumed to take it to Kljuc from Banja Luka.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you could make them available, give them to

20 the usher. We'll make copies of them. And when the Prosecution and

21 yourself, Mr. Zecevic, have seen the documents, and ourselves, of course,

22 then you may proceed with putting the questions.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. I think I have probably misinterpreted the

24 witness, because I believe we have these documents. But I -- in any case,

25 I -- the usher can --

Page 10006

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- I think -- if I remember well, the --

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. The report we have, I'm sure.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau may be right that we -- the witness

4 was not produced during the evidence -- during the testimony of Sabanovic.

5 However, I think that the death certificate does exist in the records.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. The death certificate, but I was thinking

7 about the forensic report. I understood the witness that he has a

8 forensic report.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That, I haven't seen, yeah.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Which is allegedly forgery. That's what the witness

11 said.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, my name is Slobodan Zecevic, and I

16 am chief counsel of General Talic, and I'm going to ask you several

17 questions. I would like to ask you if we can to keep it brief. I will

18 try and keep my questions brief and allow you to understand with "yes,"

19 "no," or "I don't recall," or you don't know, if you don't know anything

20 about it.

21 Could you tell me, Mr. Filipovic, in the former Yugoslavia SFRJ

22 was a multi-ethnic community, wasn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You know in the territory of Serbia proper in Sandzak there are at

25 least 500.000 Muslim who is live there. Is that correct?

Page 10007

1 A. I don't know the number. I don't know the figures. But I do know

2 that they do live there, yes.

3 Q. You told us during your testimony here that you were not satisfied

4 with your status as a nation in that former Yugoslavia; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. I said we were not satisfied with the status that was going

6 to be prepared after the first multi-party elections, but in the former,

7 the old Yugoslavia, we had a very good status.

8 Q. If I recall exactly, you said that in your opinion, you said that

9 Slovenia and Croatia -- you said they were allowed to leave Yugoslavia far

10 too easily. Do you remember that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell me if this is really what you thought, that they

13 were allowed far too easily out of Yugoslavia. Why didn't Muslims go to

14 be mobilised and fight for the Yugoslavia of then?

15 A. Because the Muslims did not want to fight other nations in

16 Yugoslavia, because specifically JNA had asked me, to call me to go into

17 the army -- I was captain in reserve -- to fight the Slovenians. I

18 wouldn't have gone because I believed that Slovenians were my people. We

19 were citizens of one state, so why would I go and kill them without any

20 reason? I would have gone -- responded to call-up papers, and 99 per cent

21 of Muslims would have done had we been attacked from the outside, Chinese,

22 Russians, or Americans, it doesn't matter. If we had been attacked from

23 the outside.

24 Q. You say without reason. But isn't reason enough? The

25 constitutional role of the army, the JNA's role, was to keep the integrity

Page 10008

1 of the former JNA, of the SFRJ. You as a captain should know that.

2 A. Yes, but as a captain I also knew that I -- I am not to be

3 dismissed from my duty is the document that I was shown earlier by the

4 gentleman, that I should be dismissed from duty and a Serb be brought in

5 my place. We know that the establishment of the JNA was such that all

6 nations were in it.

7 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I'm just going to ask you to focus on answering the

8 question. What you spoke with my learned colleague and the way you

9 answered the questions, that is already in the transcript and we heard it.

10 I asked you whether you're aware that the role of the JNA was to preserve

11 the integrity and indivisibility of the SFRJ.

12 A. That was in the constitution from 1974, yes. But the JNA did not

13 respect the constitution.

14 Q. Did the JNA not respect or did you as members of the Muslim

15 community not respect the constitution?

16 A. The JNA did not respect the constitution, because how would they

17 have the right to give helicopters just to one nation, to give weapons

18 just to one nation, while we were all citizens of Yugoslavia and we all

19 contributed to it being built up. We financed it, and we created a

20 respectable armed force in Europe, all of us, Serb, Croats, Slovenes,

21 Muslims, Macedonians, all of us.

22 Q. So in your opinion, this forced secession or forcible secession

23 which took place first in Slovenia and later was legitimate in fact.

24 A. In the way that it started, the way the Serbian nationalism

25 started, I believe, yes, that it was legitimate.

Page 10009

1 Q. And for that reason you as Muslims, you did not want to respond to

2 call-up papers for mobilisation; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell me, Mr. Filipovic, you spoke that you were not

5 asked about anything in the Kljuc Municipality Assembly as members of the

6 Muslim nation. You said that they were a SDS assembly, that they could

7 have just passed all decision themselves.

8 A. Yes. For all the decisions that were supposed to be adopted, we

9 were of no importance. We were only needed for the decisions where

10 two-third majority was needed according to the statute. That's when we

11 were needed.

12 Q. You were bothered by that because you believed that nobody had the

13 right to make decisions in your name; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you tell me, in your opinion isn't that exactly the

16 identical situation as the Serbs had in the Republic Assembly in Sarajevo

17 in the Assembly of the Republic of BH, that is, that they -- they believed

18 that they -- nobody had the right to decide on their fate in their place.

19 A. That's not right. That's not correct. The Serbs had different

20 intentions, contrary to us.

21 Q. Because of such a situation, you decided to create the

22 municipality -- or establish the Municipality of Bosanski Kljuc; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This Municipality of Bosanski or Bosnian Kljuc, you established it

Page 10010

1 and the decision was somehow been given a raincheck.

2 A. What do you mean?

3 Q. [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... zero.

4 [Interpretation] This is the official announcement from the press

5 conference that your late brother, Omer Filipovic, gave on the 30th of

6 January, 1992; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I may have missed this. What document

9 are we looking at?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Exactly. I'm going to

11 ask --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. President, please.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: P870, 870.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That explains it because --

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Prosecution Exhibit 870.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You read this, didn't you?

20 A. Yes. You can see here exactly what I told you, that we asked for

21 the laws of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to be respected.

22 Q. The last sentence on page 1, and I'm going to read it. In the

23 Serbian text, at the end of page 1, it says: "It's also been said that

24 this first municipality in Bosnia-Herzegovina, but that its fate depends

25 on the move of the partner, the SDS, because if there is no

Page 10011

1 regionalisation and ethnic basis, then there will be no Municipality of

2 Bosanski Kljuc either." Do you know about such a position?

3 A. Yes. We wanted nothing to be touched. We wanted the situation to

4 stay as it was, and that we would make everything null and void. But if

5 we had known that the Serbs were preparing for a Serbian Kljuc, if they

6 had wanted to listen to us, we would have called the assembly and we would

7 have then called for the previous situation to be revived.

8 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you made a decision -- you

9 passed a decision, but then you said if nothing happens with the ethnic

10 the regionalisation, then this decision will have no validity; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: He has already given evidence on this, and this is

14 precisely what he has stated.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. But Your Honours, I have asked him whether he

16 is aware of the fact that -- that the -- that the decision which they took

17 concerning the Bosnian Kljuc municipality has been put on hold --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes. And he --

19 MR. ZECEVIC: And he said I don't -- I don't understand what you

20 mean. That's why I am asking all these questions.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But he had explained it when he was here

22 before, and he has repeated it today.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Your Honour, but --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That it was put on hold, actually.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. But when I ask him -- my first question was:

Page 10012

1 Did you put that decision on hold? He says, "I don't understand."

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but he's explained --

3 MR. ZECEVIC: That is why I --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You will agree, Mr. Filipovic, that this position that you had by

7 putting this decision on hold if something changes is identical to the

8 position of the Serb community in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you agree with

9 me or not?

10 A. I don't agree with you because we at our assembly, we didn't

11 threaten that one whole nation would be eradicated, contrary to Karadzic

12 who said publicly in his assembly of his parliament, he said that one

13 whole nation would be eradicated from the face of the earth. We didn't

14 say that in Kljuc. We were just attempting to protect our rights under

15 the constitution, and we said that if Kljuc remains as it was, we have

16 nothing against to be members of the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc.

17 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I asked you about decisions, not about individual

18 statements. So was your decision identical to that of the Serbian

19 community in BH which said that it wouldn't make Republika Srpska, it

20 wouldn't establish it, if the same situation remained in BH?

21 A. No. Counsel, it is not.

22 Q. Mr. Filipovic, do you think that your position in relation to the

23 establishment of the Bosnian Municipality of Kljuc, was it legitimate?

24 Was it lawful?

25 A. That was, I believe, the only way to protect our constitutional

Page 10013

1 rights, because in this decision it says that the laws of BH are to be

2 respected, as we saw it earlier. But they were not respected. The laws

3 of BH were not respected.

4 Q. You mean the laws of BH were not respected in a sense -- in a

5 sense that the SDS which democratic elections got the majority, they

6 managed to get the majority when there was voting in the assembly; is that

7 correct?

8 A. It says here that the tax should go to Sarajevo, that financial

9 means should go to Sarajevo. It means to things going to what they were

10 before and also to the fact that laws were not respected.

11 Q. Mr. Filipovic, could you tell me, when we are talking about the

12 tax, at that time Bosnia-Herzegovina was still a part of the SFRJ; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, until the referendum in 1992.

15 Q. In the former Yugoslavia there was a federal tax, wasn't there?

16 A. Yes, there was federal. There was republic tax. And there was --

17 there was a local tax.

18 Q. Do you know that from 1991 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

19 didn't pay one single dinar into the federal tax that they were supposed

20 to pay, that the tax that was supposed to be collected in the territory of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. You have to ask someone who knew about it.

23 Q. On several occasions here during your testimony you said that you

24 basically as members of the Muslim nation in Kljuc, you accepted the

25 Community of Municipalities of Banja Luka but not the Autonomous Region of

Page 10014

1 Krajina; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The Prosecutor, during your examination-in-chief the Prosecutor

4 showed you a document which was P3 document, and you had to say a lot

5 about this document, had many objections saying that this document wasn't

6 valid because it didn't have a seal, it didn't have a proper number. And

7 this was about the decision of the assembly to become part of the Krajinan

8 Autonomous Region. Do you remember that document?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the witness be shown P3 and P869

11 simultaneously, please.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, on the screen you have this

13 document marked P3, which you were shown by the Prosecutor. Do you

14 remember it?

15 A. What I have in front of me?

16 Q. No. The document which is on the ELMO.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This is a document that you were shown by the Prosecutor. Do you

19 remember it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Transcript 30th of August, 5th of September, on several occasions

22 you said or you objected to the format of the document because you said

23 that there was no seal, that there was no proper number, registration

24 number, or a log number. Before you, you have a different document, P869,

25 and this is more or less of identical content as the other document.

Page 10015

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This document, P869 has a proper log number and calls upon the

3 statute of Kljuc Municipality, has a seal, and it has Jovo Banjac's

4 signature; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you believe that this document too has something that you would

7 object to?

8 A. I have nothing to object to because in January 1992 we were not in

9 the municipal assembly, so they were able to implement this. But while we

10 were in the assembly, they were not able to implement this, to have this

11 passed.

12 Q. I asked you, Mr. Filipovic, about the format. Is there something

13 in this document P869, is there something that you object to in terms of

14 format?

15 A. In this document?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. There's nothing to object to except that this was passed without

18 the participation of citizens of Muslim and Croat nationality.

19 Q. Thank you. You spoke about the participation in power, and you

20 looked at a document from January 1992 and you said that it was from

21 January 1992 that you no longer took part in the authorities.

22 A. We declared the Bosnian Kljuc or proclaimed the Bosnian Kljuc in

23 December 1991.

24 Q. This proclamation, P870, that you read a while ago, which is in

25 relation to the press conference given by your late brother, is dated from

Page 10016

1 the 30th of January, 1992.

2 A. You don't want to understand what I'm saying. We officially

3 proclaimed it, and then with the Serbian side we cooperated as the

4 assembly of the town, and we had meetings and all that but our intention

5 was that the assembly from the elections of 1990, that this was the town's

6 assembly and these were the kind of contacts that we had with the

7 authorities. We believed that the town of Kljuc was one thing. There are

8 two municipalities. They have their own; we have our own. And that was

9 that.

10 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I kindly ask you and would like to warn you to

11 answer my question so that we don't waste time any more. The document

12 P870, which you looked at a moment ago, the very first sentence says: "At

13 yesterday's session of the deputy's club of the SDA and MBO a new

14 municipality was declared of Bosnian Kljuc." And the date is the 30th of

15 January, 1992. Did you declare or proclaim the Municipality of Bosnian

16 Kljuc on that session of the 29th of January, 1992 or before that?

17 A. You keep asking me. I can't remember the date.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 A. I know it was winter. I can't remember the dates.

20 Q. Do you remember if on the 16th of January, 1992 you took part in

21 the authorities in the division of power in the Municipality of Kljuc; yes

22 or no?

23 A. Again, Mr. Zecevic, until the break-up -- I cannot remember the

24 date. Until the break-up I was a deputy at the Municipal Assembly of

25 Kljuc. And the day of the break-up we then had our sessions, the Serbs

Page 10017

1 had their own sessions. And I think that on a couple of occasions we met

2 to discuss some things but I cannot remember the dates. Don't ask me

3 about dates. I know only a couple of dates. And in everything I say, I

4 said "around such and such a date."

5 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I completely accept this. Of course ten years have

6 passed. So I'm not asking about specific dates. But you said a moment

7 ago when you were looking at document P869, this decision, you said -- the

8 document is dated 6th of January, 1992, and you said it was the Serbs who

9 passed -- adopted this decision, and already then you were not

10 participating in the authorities in power.

11 A. Yes. What I'm saying, the decision was passed, adopted without

12 us. But again, don't hang onto the dates, because I know only a couple of

13 dates that are only important to me for personal reasons and some other

14 dates.

15 Q. I completely understand. Mr. Filipovic, regardless of the fact

16 that, as you say, you did not take part in the authorities, you didn't

17 participate in power, you kept the functions or the positions that you had

18 in the municipal assembly. Your late brother, Omer, as vice-president;

19 Asim Egrlic as the president of the executive committee; Botenic as the

20 president of the court and others; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. An that went on until May 1992; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. From May 1992 onwards, you said in your testimony and in your

25 statements that as a protest you did not want to take part in power so

Page 10018

1 that you would leave or walk out of sessions and so on; is that correct?

2 A. What kind of sessions? In May? That May you mean?

3 Q. Sessions of the assembly.

4 A. As far as I remember, there were no sessions in May.

5 Q. Before that?

6 A. Before that, if there weren't any -- I know that there weren't any

7 in May because it was practically war. 7th of May, there was the takeover

8 of the police.

9 Q. Could you tell me in terms of positions, say, of your late

10 brother. Until what time did he carry out the function of

11 vice-president?

12 A. Just -- until just before the war. Until the session just before

13 the war. But this was just a pro forma function, position. He was not

14 actually able to carry out his position, duty.

15 Q. When you say until the beginning of the war, what date do you have

16 in mind?

17 A. I believe 25th of May.

18 Q. 25th of May. So in spite of the fact that as the police was taken

19 over on the 7th, your brother, as the vice-president of the assembly, and

20 all others were still continuing to carry out their duties in assembly; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes. And when we would go to our work in front of the

23 municipality building there were two policemen standing there, and one was

24 a soldier, an army member, and they would only search Muslims and Croats,

25 while Serbs passed through normally. While here, when you go into the

Page 10019

1 Tribunal, everyone is being searched. While in the municipality, only

2 Muslims and Croats were searched.

3 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I would like to ask you again, please could you

4 answer my question. I didn't ask you about searches. I asked you whether

5 your late brother and others went --

6 A. I have answered your question. I said yes, but we had certain

7 problems, so allow me to say this. I said yes, but there were a few

8 details that I wanted to add.

9 Q. You say that your brother was the vice-president, but he didn't

10 have any direct duties since Jovo Banjac was the president; isn't that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But Asim Egrlic was the president of the executive board, which

14 really was the main executive authority in the municipality.

15 A. Yes. He was the president of the executive board, but Mr. Asim

16 Egrlic didn't ask about anything.

17 Q. Do you know whether the executive board adopted any decisions in

18 May 1992?

19 A. I couldn't say. All I know is that they had coffee together in

20 the morning.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: May the witness be shown document P905, please.

22 Your Honours, there is a problem with this document. Actually, it

23 is -- it has been marked as a P905, and it does contain actually three

24 different documents. I don't know whether -- whether should we give -- if

25 the -- if the Prosecutor does not object, maybe we should give it a

Page 10020

1 /1, /2, /3 or something. Because it actually is three different

2 decisions.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's right. I've no objection if --

4 to be marked with a .1, which would be the --

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Level of payments.

6 MS. KORNER: -- level of payment. .2 would be the decision on

7 payment of tax, and 3 -- .3, to extend the validity of federal and

8 republican regulations.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I'll take note of that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

13 Can the witness be shown 905/1, please.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I'm only interested in the bottom of the

15 document. The date is the 12th of May, 1992, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the signature is the signature of Asim Egrlic, the chairman.

18 Sir, the same question for this document. The 12th of May --

19 that's the date, the 12th of May. And it's signed by the chairman of the

20 executive committee, Asim Egrlic; isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... 905/3, please.

23 Q. [Interpretation] This document also bears the date the 12th of

24 May, 1992, and it's also been signed by the chairman of the executive

25 committee, Asim Egrlic; isn't that correct?

Page 10021

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tell me, this is a decision to extend the validity of federal and

3 republican regulations; isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes, in the ARK.

5 Q. Tell me, item 1 states the following: "Until the introduction of

6 specific regulations for the ARK, the Autonomous Region of Krajina,

7 regulations issued in the SFRJ, the Socialist Federal Republic of

8 Yugoslavia, and the SRBH, before the 7th of April, 1992 that do not

9 contravene the constitution and laws of the Serbian Republic of BH will be

10 applied. Isn't that what it says?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That document was signed by the chairman of the executive

13 committee Asim Egrlic on the 12th of May, who was also the president of

14 the SDA in Kljuc; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In your opinion, does this mean that Asim Egrlic accepted the

17 existence of the ARK?

18 A. You should ask him. On the basis of the document that he has

19 signed, I would say that he did.

20 Q. So in a certain manner, members of the Muslim people continued to

21 participate in the power structure in the course of 1992; isn't that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes. You should ask Mr. Egrlic. Ask Mr. Egrlic about that.

24 Q. Absolutely. Thank you.

25 In the course of the testimony that you gave here, you mentioned

Page 10022

1 that Muslims in Kljuc had been in danger in 1992, that they were in danger

2 in 1992, and you said that you and your late brother at a press conference

3 also wore yellow ribbons, if I remember correctly. And in that part of

4 your testimony, you said that in your opinion they were implementing the

5 plan of a certain doctor called Stevan Moljevic; isn't that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me, since I don't know about this gentleman, I heard about

8 him for the first time from you. Could you tell me, were you really

9 familiar with Dr. Moljevic's alleged plan?

10 A. According to Moljevic's plan, the greater Serbia was supposed to

11 go from Karlovac to Karlobag. This was supposed to be the border, down

12 towards Zagreb. That's as far as this greater Serbia was to reach. And

13 the front lines, the front lines were more or less within those limits.

14 The borders that Moljevic had imagined as being those of the greater

15 Serbia. That's why Slovenia left Yugoslavia, because in his -- according

16 to his ideas, Slovenia was not to be part of the greater Serbia. Part of

17 Croatia was not to be part of the greater Serbia. So wherever there was

18 fighting, that's where this was irrelevant. I can't talk about this

19 without documents and maps, but the war was waged in the areas where he

20 imagined Greater Serbia to be.

21 Q. Tell me, do you know what his attitude was towards that plan and

22 with regard to members of the Muslim people?

23 A. What his attitude was, what his position was, I don't know. But I

24 do know what the position was towards the Muslims, what it was like about

25 100 years ago, several hundred years ago. And I also know how the Serbian

Page 10023

1 authorities treated Muslims. You consider us to be Turks. The Serbian

2 authorities consider us to be Turks. We have nothing to do with the

3 Turks. The Turks are Turks and we're Bosnians of Islam faith. But when

4 the war started in Bosnia, they'd say, "Kill a Turk. Kill a Turk." I've

5 got nothing to do with any Turk, so go back into the past, read up on

6 history, you'll see about the Serbs who inhabited Uzice, Belgrade, et

7 cetera. You'll see how many mosques there were in Belgrade itself several

8 hundred years ago and you'll see how many mosques there are there now and

9 you'll see what the situation is in Uzice, et cetera, et cetera. I don't

10 want to discuss history at any -- at any greater left.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... leave history

12 behind us.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And we'll proceed with the cross-examination.

15 Mr. Zecevic, next question, please.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Your Honour, I just asked because the witness

17 has mentioned Dr. Moljevic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: And my question was concerning Dr. Moljevic and not

20 the overall history --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Or whatever is the --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But now please proceed with the next question.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: -- is the position of this witness.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

Page 10024

1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Sir, do you know that -- are you familiar with the fact that in --

3 according to his plan, Dr. Moljevic said that the Muslim people had to be

4 a constituent part of the federal units of Yugoslavia because of the

5 common life that both peoples were used to; yes or no?

6 A. I don't know, because as far as I know, when Moljevic was alive

7 there was no Yugoslavia.

8 Q. A minute ago a colleague showed you the Exhibit P877, which is the

9 opinion of -- on the candidates for judge. Do you remember that?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. On the second page, at the very beginning of the second page in

12 the Serbian version - and it's in the middle of the English version - it

13 says the following: "The SDS, the municipal committee, suggests that for

14 these reasons we suggest only -- and one other judge of Muslim nationality

15 be elected. The SDS proposes that the candidate be Ibro Sehic, who is

16 currently working as a self-management public attorney and whose duties in

17 previous work and behaviour enjoys the confidence of all municipalities."

18 That's what it states; is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Do you know Ibro Sehic?

21 A. I know him personally.

22 Q. Ibro Sehic is a Muslim; is that correct?

23 A. He has a first and last name of a Muslim, and he is a member of

24 the Muslim people.

25 Q. So the municipal committee of the SDS in February 1992, which is

Page 10025

1 the date of this document, proposed that a member of the Muslim people be

2 a judge of the municipal court in Kljuc; isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is. Yes, Mr. Zecevic, but at the time I don't know

4 whether Mr. Sehic had passed his judicial law exam, whether he had become

5 a judge.

6 Q. You said that the second candidate was Nihad Filipovic, a relative

7 of yours.

8 A. Yes. My uncle's son.

9 Q. Isn't it correct that Nihad Filipovic was the secretary of the MBO

10 in Kljuc?

11 A. No, it's not correct.

12 Q. You see that the municipal committee of the SDS in the third

13 paragraph says: "As far as the other candidates of Muslim nationality is

14 concerned, Nihad Filipovic, the SDS did not support his candidature

15 because he has rather compromised himself politically in his area." Is

16 this correct, as far as you know?

17 A. I can't answer that question with a yes or no. If you will allow

18 me to answer the question --

19 Q. Please go ahead. I'm not interested in the details, though. I

20 want to know whether Nihad Filipovic, your relative, was a member of a

21 political organisation in Kljuc and I want to know whether he was involved

22 in political activity.

23 A. Well, again, this isn't an answer to your question, but Nihad

24 Filipovic, we are relatives. At that time he was a member of the Liberal

25 Party in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 10026

1 Q. Its secretary?

2 A. I don't know what he was, but he had a high-level position in the

3 Liberal Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He had passed his law exam. He

4 had become a candidate for a judge, to become a judge, but he came forth

5 because -- well, I'll just give you an example if Your Honours will allow

6 me to do so. In December when 25 buses of Croats were forced out from

7 Slunj and when they were maltreated in Kljuc by the police, only three

8 Filipovics went to say, "People, stop doing that. It's not correct."

9 Omer Filipovic, Muhamed Filipovic and Nihad Filipovic came out -- came

10 forward to say this. So if this means being prominent, well, yes. People

11 who had a heart, who had a soul, we were the only ones in the entire town

12 who fed people.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Mr. Zecevic.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. I didn't want to interrupt the witness,

15 Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The next question.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. When answering a question that my colleague put to you, you said

19 that the SDA and MBO Crisis Staff was established in Kljuc. You said that

20 the Crisis Staff of the SDA and the MBO was established sometime around

21 the second half of 1991; isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you know that the SDS founded a Crisis Staff only in

24 December 1991, on the 23rd of December?

25 A. I don't know the date, but they could have done this in December

Page 10027

1 or January 1992 on the basis of documents. But they had a Crisis Staff at

2 a date which was much earlier than 1991.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: May the witness be shown document P1010, please.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, all I'm interested in is the date.

5 It's in the first sentence of this document. It's a report on the work of

6 the Crisis Staff. And the document is dated the 29th of July, 1992, and

7 it's from Kljuc. Isn't that correct?

8 A. Here it says, "Report on the work of the Crisis Staff in the

9 period since 15th May, 1992."

10 Q. 1992?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So the first sentence in the document, it says: "The Crisis Staff

13 was formed -- was set up by the executive board of the Kljuc Serbian

14 Democratic Party of the 23rd of December, 1991." Isn't that what it says?

15 A. That's what it says.

16 Q. Do you think that they had reason -- that some members of the

17 Crisis Staff had reason in July 1992 to state that the Crisis Staff was

18 formed in December 1991, even though this was not correct?

19 A. I don't know about that.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I -- can I -- can I make the --

22 ask the same questions I asked in relation to a document -- the Milos

23 document. According to my records, this document is objected to by the

24 Defence for General Talic on the basis that it doesn't have a signature or

25 seal or whatever. I'm afraid the Defence can't have it both ways. Are

Page 10028

1 they saying that this is an accurate reflection of the events; in other

2 words, that this document is in fact an authentic document?

3 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may respond, Your Honour.


5 MR. ZECEVIC: We're not -- we're not stating at all that this is

6 an authentic document. The fact that the document does reveal the exact

7 date when the Crisis Staff was formed in Kljuc does not mean that the

8 document is authentic. I mean, the contents of this document. So that is

9 why I used it, because that is the only document which we have which

10 refers to this particular date.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the previous --

12 MR. ZECEVIC: No prejudice to its relevance.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: In the previous instance, in the previous case, I

14 did actually comment that it's neither here nor there and one could take

15 it that it's without prejudice. In your case, you're specifically

16 referring to something fundamental. In other words, you're saying you

17 have here this document which purports to be a document of the Crisis

18 Staff dated July 1992.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: That's right.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you see any logic? Could you perhaps try to make

21 us understand why on earth they would have had a reason to say in that

22 document in July 1992 that the Crisis Staff was formed in December 1991.

23 So basically you're referring to the contents of this document and, on the

24 basis of what is contained in that particular paragraph, you are

25 confuting -- you're asking a direct question to the witness. So it -- it

Page 10029

1 is somewhat different from the case of Mr. Trbojevic, when he was

2 referring the witness to the Milos signed --

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just so it's -- just so it's absolutely

4 clear to Mr. Zecevic. You cannot on the one hand assert that this

5 document is not authentic and then on the other try and use the document,

6 as Your Honours just said, to controvert what a witness has said. You

7 have to make a decision as to what is your theory on this document.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, it is very clear, Your Honours, and my learned

9 colleague. We -- as we have already said, we don't -- do not accept this

10 document as authentic document, and we have stated this many times, why

11 and the reasons. Why I asked this question was because I was provoked by

12 the comment of the -- of the witness, because the witness said, as he used

13 this -- it during his testimony that he was suggesting that a lot of the

14 documents were in some -- some way tampered with, and that was his

15 suggestion. I don't know whether it -- it appeared in the -- in the

16 transcript, but out of the -- because we speak the same language, I

17 understood what was his intention. That is why I asked that.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But it still follows, Mr. Zecevic, that if

19 you are still contesting the authenticity of this document --

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: -- then you shouldn't be referring to parts of it

22 and questioning the witness on -- on the validity or otherwise of the

23 statement contained there, unless you are using your question to prove the

24 non-authenticity of the document. If you are putting the question to

25 sustain -- to prove that the witness -- that -- that the document is not

Page 10030

1 authentic, then it's perfectly legitimate. If you are using the document

2 which you contest as being authentic to present or face the witness with a

3 fact in which you then put as being against what is stated earlier, I

4 mean, that's -- that's notice legitimate at all. So you either stop here

5 on -- as far as this document is concerned.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And make an affirmation as to whether you are still

8 contesting its authenticity or not, or else decide what you want to do.

9 You know, it's ...

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course. I stated very clearly. I used this

11 document only because of the date, and that was it. No other question.

12 MS. KORNER: Sorry, that's not right. Mr. Zecevic put a date to

13 him, said "Were you aware" -- that's how this whole thing started off --

14 "Were you aware that the Crisis Staff, the Serb Crisis Staff, the SDS

15 Crisis Staff, was only formed on the 23rd of December." "No," said

16 Mr. Filipovic, "I was not. And in my view, it began much earlier." So

17 he's then put -- this document is put only on the basis, as I see it, to

18 show that he's wrong.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner is right here.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand. I understand, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move ahead.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, in the course of your testimony

24 you spoke about the fact that your late brother, Omer, was called for a

25 military exercise, I imagine, and he responded to this call. He went

Page 10031

1 there, and three days later he ran away. Isn't that correct?

2 A. Yes. In the barracks, Zarko Zgonjanin in Prijedor. I couldn't

3 remember the name before.

4 Q. On that occasion, you even issued a declaration if I remember

5 rightly in which you objected. You said it wasn't correct for a party

6 leader to be called for a military exercise.

7 A. Yes, that's correct. That meant that if the president of the

8 Muslim Bosniak organisation should go to the reserve forces, why not the

9 president of the SDS.

10 Q. And do you know whether some sort of criminal proceedings had been

11 instituted against your late brother because he left the unit?

12 A. When he told the unit commander that he was leaving -- I don't

13 know what rank the commander had and I don't know what he was -- he said,

14 "We can prosecute you." Omer then said, "You can prosecute me. I have

15 political immunity though. You can file charges. I'm quite ready to

16 answer them, because I didn't join the reserve forces in order to watch

17 pornographic films in the course of the day and to drink cognac and to

18 shoot around Kozara in the evening. I just joined the reserve forces."

19 And he said, "Everything that's being done, it's ridiculous."

20 Q. Any question was whether you knew anything about criminal

21 proceedings being instituted against him.

22 A. I don't think they were instituted against any more Kljuc. I

23 don't know whether something was done in Prijedor, but nothing happened in

24 Kljuc.

25 Q. Some sort of criminal proceedings were instituted against you, I

Page 10032

1 think, for disrupting public law and order; isn't that correct? You were

2 fined, weren't you? You had to pay a fine; isn't that right? You were

3 found guilty.

4 A. No, it's not for disrupting law and order. It was a parking fine.

5 Q. And you received a fine that you had to pay.

6 A. Yes. And you are all judges here. I was accused of having

7 attempted to kill a soldier, but the court for misdemeanours cannot deal

8 with proceedings for -- which involved parking, and the witness was a

9 certain Kljajic. He said it wasn't correct, that the charges against me

10 were not correct, and then the judge changed this decision, and I was

11 ordered to pay a fine.

12 Q. I think there's something I haven't understood. You said that you

13 were accused of having parked incorrectly; isn't that correct?

14 A. You haven't understood me correctly. I was accused of having

15 parked my car in a certain location. So if Your Honours will allow me to

16 add other things, I parked my car and --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

18 MR. ZECEVIC: I just wanted to know, Your Honour, what was the

19 offence, Your Honour, nothing else. If he can tell us what -- what was he

20 charged with, nothing else.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. If you can't tell us, it's not necessary.

24 A. I was accused of having parked my car incorrectly. The soldier

25 asked me to move the car. I didn't want to, and that was that.

Page 10033

1 Q. Did you have a physical -- did you physically deal with the

2 soldier then?

3 A. No. We just had a verbal exchange, and that's how it ended.

4 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me, you spoke or you told us that you

5 established the Bosnian Kljuc municipality, which was a reaction to the

6 Serbian Kljuc initiative.

7 A. Yes. Yes. At that time Serbs wanted to have everything Serbian,

8 Serbian Kljuc, Serbian Sarajevo, Serbian Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbian

9 everything. I don't know what in the former Yugoslavia was not Serbian.

10 Q. Could you tell us if their intention really was to change the name

11 in the Serbian Kljuc, how come it never actually occurred either in 1992

12 or 1993, 1994, 1995?

13 A. You should ask them. I don't know.

14 Q. Thank you. You also told us --

15 A. Excuse me. Can I just add something? After the end of the war,

16 for a little while there was what was used for the place called Ribnik.

17 It was used as Serbian Kljuc in 1995, 1996. This name was used, Serbian

18 Kljuc, Srpski Kljuc. And then it was abolished, so now it's called again

19 Ribnik.

20 Q. The transcript of the 4th of September, page 9517 and further on,

21 you told us in your testimony how some people, allegedly Muslims, would be

22 dismissed from their jobs just because they were Muslims; is that correct?

23 You worked in the municipal administration; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, in the municipal surveyor's office, administration, yes.

25 Q. Since you also passed the state examination for that, you're

Page 10034

1 probably aware of the regulations and the relevant articles of the law to

2 do with employment. You know that according to the law on employment at

3 the time, there was a measure of cessation of employment that if an

4 employee didn't turn up for work for seven days or three days consequently

5 without any reason, he would be dismissed.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You're probably aware that at that time there was a discipline

8 procedure in accordance with the law on employment.

9 A. Yes, there should be a procedure, but I don't know what it was.

10 Q. This discipline procedure was conducted in such a way that the

11 manager would submit a request to the commission, a discipline commission,

12 and then there would be a decision and there would also be a leave for

13 appeal.

14 A. Yes. That's how it should be according to law.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: [In English] [Previous translation continues] ...

16 P1023, 24, 25, 26 and 27.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We are starting with which one, Mr. Zecevic?

18 MR. ZECEVIC: With P1027, please.

19 Q. [Interpretation] This is about a request to start discipline

20 proceedings regarding Smail Dzaferagic?

21 A. Yes, Smail Dzaferagic.

22 Q. And this was addressed to the discipline commission of the lower

23 court, and this was signed by the president of the court; is that correct?

24 A. At that time this was Vlado Dimitrovic.

25 Q. This is a document from August 1992.

Page 10035

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: 1023, please. P1023.

3 Q. [Interpretation] This document is a decision to form a

4 disciplinary commission; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Also dated August 1992.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: P1024, please, 1024.

10 Q. [Interpretation] This document is a ruling dated 18th of August,

11 1992 about the disciplinary responsibility, where there was a ruling for

12 the termination of employment, and this was for certain Eljezovic.

13 A. It's for Fedija Eljezovic, a woman.

14 Q. Tell me, this document has also instructions, a legal remedy.

15 A. Let me have a look. "An appeal against the decision may be made

16 to the disciplinary commission of the second instance at the high court in

17 Banja Luka within 15 days of the day of receipt." That's what it says,

18 but I don't know what you want me to do with this.

19 Q. I'm just showing you this ruling. That's all. I will ask you a

20 question at the end.

21 A. Okay. I'll wait then.

22 Q. 1025 and 1026 are also rulings, and they are identical to this one

23 but it's to do with different people, so there's no point in me reading

24 from them. But Mr. Filipovic, could you tell me in your opinion, because

25 you looked at the documents, do you believe that according to what you

Page 10036

1 know of the regulations and rules of employment and working for state

2 administration, do you think that this procedure was in accordance with

3 law.

4 A. It wasn't. No, it wasn't in accordance with law. The rulings

5 were issued in August 1992. The employees were not at work from the 28th

6 of May to the 3rd of June. And in my testimony I said that a mole, an

7 animal that goes underground, could not get through unless it was Serbian.

8 In that time period, from the 28th of May to the 3rd of June, nobody could

9 get through Kljuc without being killed. It was only valid for Muslims and

10 Croats.

11 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I asked you only in relation to the procedure, not

12 to the facts?

13 A. Well, I'm telling you. The procedure wasn't respected. It said

14 that it was instruction on legal remedy to appeal to the high court in

15 Banja Luka. That's what it says. Say that this was to do with me, say

16 that I appealed and the appeal would never get to Banja Luka.

17 Q. How do you know that?

18 A. I know that because I lived through this. I felt it on my own

19 skin. I know that --

20 Q. I remember it well. You were in prison at the time.

21 A. I was in prison, but I -- there was a patient in the hospital in

22 Banja Luka, called for a doctor. Instead of a doctor, a nurse would come

23 or a cleaner would come and beat him rather than be looked at by a doctor.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Filipovic, could you tell me, you spoke I believe

25 on two occasions about a certain anonymous letter that was received by

Page 10037

1 your late brother Omer. And we have a copy of it here in the exhibits.

2 Do you remember that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Do you know that because of that incident, because of that

5 anonymous letter there was a joint announcement of the SDA and the SDS?

6 A. As far as I know, this only took place after two Muslims were

7 beaten up, and then at the insistence of Jovo Banjac to preserve peace in

8 Kljuc - he called my late brother professor - so he said, "Professor,

9 let's do something." So there was this joint announcement that in the

10 territory of Kljuc there were no White Eagles or Green Berets. It was

11 some kind of political compromise. So it was some kind of a temporary

12 solution.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: [In English] [Previous translation continues] ...

14 DT27, please. There is English translation as well. Thank you.

15 MS. KORNER: Can I just ask. It's one of our documents, I can

16 see, or rather, we have disclosed it, because it bears our numbers. But

17 it's unstamped, sealed, or whatever. Am I taking it being put forward as

18 an authentic document?

19 MR. ZECEVIC: This is a -- this is not an official document. This

20 is a proclamation which -- which is signed by the -- by the, I think, SDS

21 and SDA.

22 MS. KORNER: Could I -- could I ask the question again: Is it

23 being put forward by the Defence as an authentic document?

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

Page 10038

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the document -- this is not

2 the document that I spoke of earlier.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you tell me, under item 1 of this document --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we proceed, Mr. Zecevic, a little bit

6 differently.

7 Mr. Filipovic, looking at that document, at the bottom, where you

8 have "Za SDA." That's "for SDA." Do you recognise that signature?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems like the signature of Asim

10 Egrlic.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Not to me. Not in the documents which we have seen

12 earlier on today. Which was that document which had 3 and 1?

13 MR. ZECEVIC: 905, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: 905. That's the only document I came across today

15 which had the signature of Asim Egrlic. And this is -- doesn't look like

16 it. But I stand to be -- I stand to be corrected.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, Mr. Egrlic is coming as a

18 witness over here. I assume that he should be asked that question.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And Mr. Filipovic, do you recognise the

20 signature that's on top of it that's for the SDS, by any chance?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Okay. Have you ever seen this document before?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it for the first time now.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10039

1 Q. Item 1, it says: "Distance themselves from any malevolent

2 information regarding the presence of any armed groups or any formations

3 in this area and from individuals writing malevolent and insulting

4 anonymous letters and making malevolent and insulting telephone calls, and

5 they condemn such behaviour." That's what it says, doesn't it?

6 A. Yes, that's what it says.

7 Q. So what I asked you is whether you're aware that such an

8 announcement was sent after these anonymous letters.

9 A. I didn't know. I know that we reacted because not a day passed

10 without us being threatened. There were letters as well as telephone

11 calls. But this is the first time that I see this here.

12 Q. Thank you. You also told about an incident which took place in

13 Pudin Han sometime in early April 1992. It was about a torching. Do you

14 remember that?

15 A. [Inaudible]

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the witness be shown DT28, please.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness approach the microphone,

18 please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Filipovic, I'm being asked to ask you in

20 turn to get nearer to the microphone when -- when you speak, because some

21 of your -- yes, sometimes they can't hear exactly what you're saying.

22 Thank you.

23 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour --

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Your Honours. In the transcript it says

25 "BT". It's DT, "D".

Page 10040

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes. Yes. And I suppose Ms. Korner has

2 exactly the same question as before too.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, and the same answer.

4 MS. KORNER: Well, no. I want to know where this document comes

5 from, please.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, this document is obviously a Prosecutor's

7 document because it has the numbers, the ERN numbers.

8 MS. KORNER: Not necessarily. I mean -- but it's one of our

9 documents, and I understand it's put forward as an authentic document, is

10 it?

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.


13 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Were you able to look at the document?

15 A. Yes, I saw the document. But I don't know who wrote this.

16 Q. The assumption is that this is kind of an announcement on the

17 radio, but we don't have any other information. It's a document that was

18 handed over by the Prosecution. You can see here that people are being

19 told that a certain Suvad Huskic was arrested, aka Mujin, and that he was

20 the one who was responsible for the incident in Pudin Han. Do you

21 remember that? First of all, do you know this Suvad Huskic?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Do you know that after this incident in April 1992 he was

24 arrested -- because of this incident as a perpetrator?

25 A. Yes, I know that he was arrested. I know that he's still in

Page 10041

1 prison, Suvad Huskic. But if Your Honours will allow me, I will have to

2 answer this because that night in Kljuc and in Pudin Han there were

3 certain things that happened for which there is no terrorist organisation

4 that could carry it out, that everything could happen at the same time.

5 On that night windows on a house were also broken and Mujin was accused --

6 found responsible for everything. There were department shop windows that

7 were broken. Everything happened within 4 kilometres, and it's impossible

8 for one person to have done it all. But he was the usual suspect. He was

9 found.

10 Q. Very well. So you do know that this Suvad Huskic was designated

11 as a possible perpetrator.

12 A. He was accused. He was charged with that. I still don't think

13 that he did it, but he was charged with that. I think that he also served

14 a sentence for that. I don't know what his sentence was.

15 Q. I'm asking you, Mr. Filipovic, because here before the Chamber you

16 said that while you were testifying, that this torching, this burning

17 incident in Pudin Han, that this was done by the Serbs, that this is the

18 Serbs who had set fire to hay.

19 A. Mr. Zecevic, the situation in Kljuc was such that an incident

20 situation was looked for actively, and this torching in Pudin Han was

21 attempted to become that. So this was done, and only thanks to my -- the

22 honesty of my late brother that the people didn't rebel, they didn't --

23 there was much damage done, and he managed, my late brother Omer, tried to

24 calm them down, managed to calm them down. He said that it would be

25 through the legal organs of power that something would be done, although

Page 10042

1 the people were very upset.

2 Q. The reason why I'm asking you this is before this Chamber you said

3 that your assertion that this was done by the Serbs in order to provoke

4 the incidents -- just what you said.

5 A. Yes, that's what I still before.

6 Q. However, according to this document, it is obvious that this is a

7 Muslim who had done this, that there was a legal procedure taken, court

8 proceedings, and he was charged with and he was convicted.

9 A. Yes, he was convicted. I believe that that was done by Vlado

10 Dimitrovic. And Mujin, he's been a criminal in Kljuc for 30 years.

11 Whatever happens, I can do something. You can do something. He's always

12 the usual suspect in Kljuc.

13 Q. I believe that what you're trying to say is that at the time you

14 did not believe that the real perpetrator had been found but that this was

15 a frame, that Suvad Huskic was framed.

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the witness be shown DT29. And again, this

18 has been -- this is the Prosecutor's document. The answer to Ms. Korner's

19 question is yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm very conscious of time, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So are we.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: I know.

24 Q. [Interpretation] As the title says, that's an official communique

25 about the event in Pudin Han which was signed by seven representatives of

Page 10043

1 largest parties in Kljuc, is that correct, including your late brother

2 Omer for the MBO? And just above his name, president of the SDA, I

3 presume Mr. Egrlic.

4 A. Yes, I guess so. I don't know this.

5 Q. So let me ask you: You probably know your brother's signature.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is this your brother's signature next to "MBO"?

8 A. It's -- it's difficult to say. You should find a different one so

9 that we can compare it.

10 Q. Well, I was just asking whether this was his signature. So you

11 cannot say for certain that this is your brother's signature on this

12 document.

13 A. No, I can't.

14 Q. It says here that the political parties -- that is, this is the

15 first sentence -- that the parliamentary parties are fully support --

16 express full confidence in the organs of the Kljuc Public Security Station

17 and the Banja Luka Security Services Centre, engaged in uncovering the

18 perpetrators of the vandalistic fire in Pudin Han. The representatives of

19 the parties consider this a crime and so the political parties consider

20 this case settled." And this communique came presumably after Suvad

21 Huskic was arrested.

22 A. Yes, I think so. I presume.

23 Q. Do you remember that such an announcement, such a communique was

24 broadcast, or issued?

25 A. No, I don't.

Page 10044

1 Q. I would now like to focus on early May 1992. You know about the

2 events in Sarajevo of the 4th of May, 1992; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Here before this Chamber on several occasions during your

5 testimony you talk about the transmitter, the repeater, and about the

6 channels that you watched, TV channels. But if we can, I'd like us to

7 clear that up a bit, elucidate. In any case, you were able to watch

8 Sarajevo television first channel.

9 A. While I was at home, until I was imprisoned, I could watch it.

10 But there was -- there were some interference and there was often Austrian

11 channel that was interfering.

12 Q. But you watched Sarajevo first channel, the first programme of

13 Sarajevo Television you watched?

14 A. When I was at home, when there was no interference with the

15 Austrian programme, yes.

16 Q. And the Kljuc municipality was also able to get Croatian

17 stations?

18 A. We could only have the first programme, even now, of the federal

19 television. And we are in a valley. Whoever has a satellite can watch

20 the Croatian television. But you could do it if you are turned towards

21 Krasulje. But the town of Kljuc doesn't have very many frequencies that

22 it can get.

23 Q. Well, in any case, when that man - I think his name was Pejic -

24 when he destroyed the repeater of the second -- for the second channel of

25 TV Belgrade, you were happy because you said that you were irritated by

Page 10045

1 that channel, that it was an extremely biased channel.

2 A. It wasn't Pejic. It was Pajic. It's a Muslim last name, not a

3 Serbian last name. Pejic would have been a Serbian last name. And even

4 at that time, because I was so upset, I refused to pay a subscription for

5 the Sarajevo Television. I even paid only half of the subscription, and I

6 would even write on the pay form that I was only paying for the half of

7 the subscription for the Sarajevo television.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.


10 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that the translation was

11 still going on.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But whatever you said has not been noted into

13 the transcript.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. What I said is I think it's the appropriate

15 time to take a break now because I am moving on to another topic.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We'll break for 25 minutes. Thank you.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, you're certainly aware of the fact

23 that the Patriotic League was formed in 1991; isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Sefer Halilovic was its commander; isn't that right?

Page 10046

1 A. Yes, as far as I know.

2 Q. Tell me, do you know that in February negotiations --

3 consultations were arranged between the Patriotic League when plans were

4 made for armed resistance?

5 A. I know that now after the war. But at the time we were cut off

6 from everything in Kljuc and we acted on an independent basis. We didn't

7 receive orders from anyone.

8 Q. So if I have understood you correctly, no one as far as you know ,

9 none of the Muslim leaders, no one from the leadership in Kljuc attended

10 the meeting of the Patriotic League in February?

11 A. As far as I know, no.

12 Q. You formed the Patriotic League in Kljuc towards the end of 1992;

13 isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At that point in time you formed headquarters for the Patriotic

16 League in the municipality of Kljuc?

17 A. A Crisis Staff. It was quite simply a Crisis Staff.

18 Q. In that Patriotic League staff you and your late brother, Omer,

19 were part of this staff, Amir Abdic and Djeric Nerzet; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Ibrahim Egrlic was also in it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You told us a little earlier on that you were cut off, that you

24 didn't receive orders from anyone, and you worked on an independent basis

25 so to speak; isn't that correct?

Page 10047

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you mean to say that the Patriotic League and the Patriotic

3 League staff was also founded on your own?

4 A. Well, not on our own. We knew what was happening. It wasn't done

5 independently. But we hadn't received any instructions from anyone else.

6 We simply wanted to be in that group of people who were prepared to mount

7 resistance, but no one in particular came. You mentioned Sefer Halilovic.

8 Sefer Halilovic didn't come to Kljuc and say that we had to do such and

9 such a thing. That's not correct.

10 Q. So you hadn't received any instructions, if I have understood you

11 correctly.

12 A. As far as I know, no.

13 Q. Tell me, why do you say that you were cut off? We're talking

14 about the year 1991. You founded the Patriotic League towards the end of

15 1991. That's what you said just a minute ago.

16 A. Well, I am telling you that I was cut off in 1991 and in 1992 from

17 Kljuc to Sarajevo. Where the Serbs -- that is to say, the SDS dominated,

18 that was every several -- a vehicle could be checked every few kilometres,

19 so that no one would set off for Sarajevo without good reason.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, could the witness be shown the map

21 P446.1. And if it can be put on the ELMO, because I would need it for

22 some time.

23 A bit more, Mr. Usher, just a little bit, because I need -- I need

24 the municipality to the far left. To the far left, yes. That's right.

25 Fine. Thank you.

Page 10048

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, the fact that you avoided going to

2 Sarajevo doesn't mean that you didn't have contact with Bihac; isn't that

3 correct?

4 A. It was possible to go to Bihac. But on the way to Bihac there

5 were always check-ups in Laniste and Petrovac --

6 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness please speak into the

7 microphone.

8 A. When I testified earlier on, I said that I personally went to

9 Prijedor to see Mr. Mirzad Mujadzic to tell him, since at the time he was

10 a member of the state parliament, I went to tell him that something would

11 happen and that the authorities in Sarajevo were trying to do something to

12 protect us, because we had been left to ourselves. That's the only

13 contact that I personally established with someone outside of Kljuc

14 municipality. That's the only contact I had.

15 Q. Very well.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Mr. Usher, the map can stay on the ELMO. It's -- I

17 don't want the witness to point out anything on the ELMO. Just that we

18 have it as a reference.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, you said that when you formed the

20 Patriotic League towards the end of 1991, you said that from the

21 beginning -- at the beginning you had about 50 members; is that right?

22 A. Yes. Yes. These were people who were ready, and we know who they

23 are.

24 Q. Perhaps that's inconvenient for you. Maybe you should turn the

25 microphone towards yourself.

Page 10049

1 A. It's no problem.

2 Q. And then in the course of your testimony you told us that in your

3 opinion the situation deteriorated. And as this happened, your membership

4 increased, the membership of the Patriotic League.

5 A. Well, let me tell you. Only the core part and the first people

6 who joined, we only considered these people to be the Patriotic League.

7 And later on - and I'm not sure of the date- when the republican staff

8 named Omer as the commander of the staff, then we formed the Territorial

9 Defence. And after that membership increased.

10 Q. Well, you have addressed this topic. If I remember well, Omer on

11 the 29th of April was appointed as the commander of the Territorial

12 Defence staff.

13 A. I don't know the date, but he was appointed by the Ministry. But

14 it was known that Omer would be the commander one month before the

15 official document was issued.

16 Q. That was in the ministry in Sarajevo; isn't that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Hasan Efendic was the minister; isn't that right?

19 A. Yes. Hasan Efendic and Joko Doko. Those were the men.

20 Q. And how is it that in April 1992 you hadn't been cut off from

21 Sarajevo and an order on this appointment could arise whereas in 1991 you

22 were cut off?

23 A. Well, there were telephones.

24 Q. Thank you. Tell me, it was in your interest for a large number of

25 people to join the Patriotic League; isn't that correct?

Page 10050

1 A. We would have been happiest if everyone had joined, but that's not

2 what the situation was from the very beginning.

3 Q. So you -- in order to achieve this, you popularised it.

4 A. Well, it depends on what you mean by "popularise." We just told

5 the people what would happen. And after a number of events, people

6 realised what was happening, and they would join.

7 Q. So if I remember correctly, you also spoke about how you made your

8 announcements public, made your information public about what the Serbs

9 were preparing and about how they were arming, et cetera; isn't that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes. We simply presented the facts.

12 Q. You told us that given that the public had no access to this

13 information, this is why you presented the information; isn't that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You also told us that you obtained that information from certain

17 Serbs after they had had a little too much to drink; isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes. Mr. Zecevic, the situation was such that-- we Bosnians are a

19 mixed people and regardless of what had happened, there were people who

20 were ready to speak.

21 Q. But under the influence of alcohol?

22 A. Yes, some under the influence of alcohol. Some because of many

23 years of friendship they would say, "I can't tell you anything. You don't

24 know me. You haven't seen me, but you heard this from Mr. X, et cetera,"

25 because there are always honest people.

Page 10051

1 Q. You'll agree with me that in some way membership -- with regard to

2 the membership of the Patriotic League, it was in your interest for the

3 security situation in the municipality to deteriorate?

4 A. I wouldn't agree with you.

5 Q. But just a minute ago you told us that as events unfolded and as

6 the situation deteriorated, your membership grew. Isn't that what you

7 said?

8 A. Yes, that's what I said. But that's not what I wanted. I would

9 still be happy even today if that had never happened, because first of

10 all, I would be healthy. I wouldn't have had to go to hospital. And

11 there would be 200.000 Bosnians still alive.

12 Q. I wasn't talking about your wish. I was talking about your

13 interests.

14 A. Well, there is a song about that, you know. Those weren't my

15 wishes, not even for the third of us. I don't want to say that there any

16 extremists who wished for such a situation. But in Kljuc, that was not

17 case; that's certain.

18 Q. Tell me, were you to assume a post in the municipality of Bosnian

19 Kljuc when it was formed?

20 A. Let me tell you that right up until the time when we were informed

21 from Sarajevo that the commander of the Territorial Defence had to be a

22 graduate, up until that time I was a member of that Crisis Staff. And

23 there was only one other person who had a higher rank than I did. And

24 since I have finished the geodesics school -- I am a technician -- no one

25 apart from my late brother wanted to assume this duty.

Page 10052

1 Q. If I have understood you correctly this morning when my colleague

2 showed you Ismet Alagic's statement, you confirmed that you were present

3 at that meeting which took place towards the end of April or at the

4 beginning of May in Pudin Han.

5 A. Yes, I was present at meetings. I don't hide this fact. I did

6 participate in meetings. I went to meetings right up -- for as long as

7 this was possible. But I think Mr. Muratagic's statement is from Manjaca.

8 That's my opinion. Or from some detention centre until he went to

9 Manjaca.

10 Q. Do you remember the meeting that followed immediately on the

11 arrival of the order from Sarajevo in which your late brother was

12 appointed as the Territorial Defence commander, the one in Pudin Han?

13 A. Let me tell you something. This is how the situation was: When

14 this note came saying that he had been appointed as commander, Jovo Banjac

15 had already found out. He found out about it before Omer did. And it's

16 absurd. Jovo Banjac, he's a Muslim who worked at the university -- a

17 Muslim took it to him, not a Serb. That's what is absurd. So -- Jovo

18 Banjac and the SDS leadership first found out that the Ministry had

19 appointed Omer as the commander.

20 Q. But the decision was announced in the municipality.

21 A. Yes, in the communications centre. That's what it was called

22 before.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I have a -- I think the interpretation --

24 the translation was not really what I said.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would like to add that it was

Page 10053

1 received by fax, the order was received by fax, sent to the fax

2 municipality, the municipality's fax.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you. Thank you. This clarifies the

4 situation.

5 Q. [Interpretation] I'll remind you of that meeting. The meeting was

6 held from the 29th of April up until the 1st or 2nd of May in Pudin Han,

7 between these dates, in the headquarters -- in the centre where you and

8 your late brother were, the brothers Egrlic, Asim and Ibrahim, Amir Abdic,

9 Djeric Nerzet, Salih Salihovic, Muratagic Ismet and the military commander

10 from the territory of the municipality. You remember that meeting.

11 A. Yes. We had several such meetings. Whenever it was possible to

12 meet, we would meet. And in military terms, so to speak, there were

13 reports on what was happening on the situation. So I don't know about

14 that specific case, but there were several such meetings.

15 Q. I'll try to refresh your memory. At that meeting your late

16 brother, Omer, in his introductory remark informed all of you of the

17 conclusions of the meeting in Sanski Most and informed you of the

18 instructions he had received from the commander of the Cazinska region

19 Territorial Defence. Does this help you remember?

20 A. All I know is that one of the meetings they said that policemen

21 who refused to pledge their loyalty to the Autonomous Region of Bosnian

22 Krajina, then their families would receive their salaries from the

23 Ministry of Bosnia-Herzegovina regardless of the fact that they weren't

24 working. I remember that they mentioned this at one meeting. And I don't

25 know anything else. I know that all our plans were that if war should

Page 10054

1 break out, we'd be able to receive help from Bihac, first of all, before

2 receiving help from Sarajevo.

3 Q. Did you know of or did you know Hajrudin Osmanagic?

4 A. I don't know that name.

5 Q. He was the commander of the regional staff of the TO of the Bihac

6 region.

7 A. I don't know that name. As for the leadership in Bihac that I

8 knew, who were my friends, who were friends of my family, this was --

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name.

10 A. And Safet Hidic from Petrovac.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Filipovic, can you repeat these two name,

12 please, these last two name that is you mentioned, because one of them the

13 interpreters did not catch.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Late Dr. Irfan Ljubijankic. He was

15 killed in the war. He was Minister of foreign affairs of BH, and the

16 other one is also late Safet Hidic. One is from Bihac and the other one

17 is from Petrovac.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

20 Q. [Interpretation] So you don't remember specifically about the

21 meeting and the instructions that your late brother received from the

22 commander of the TO Cazin region.

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. Do you remember perhaps the meeting at which your plans were made

25 and when your late brother said that the villages of Velecevo and Dubocani

Page 10055

1 should -- including the town itself could not be counted on?

2 A. Yes, I remember that. When we were making the plan of the

3 defence, this was the situation that required this. This part could not

4 be counted on, because there was a lot of mixed population. And just when

5 you asked me something earlier, what I remember is that once my brother

6 and Asim went to Kladovo to Fikret Abdic, to see him. But I don't know

7 what they negotiated with him, but I do know that they went once.

8 Q. Could you tell me, these two villages, Velecevo and Dubocani,

9 these villages had predominantly Muslim population, didn't they?

10 A. Yes, they did. But they were surround by Serbian villages. And

11 towards Ribnik -- this was only after the Dayton Agreement that they were

12 returned to the Federation. But at the end of the war they were part of

13 the Republika Srpska.

14 Q. If I understand you correctly, you as the Patriotic League or the

15 Territorial Defence did not have much of a support there, did you?

16 A. Well, there were people, Mr. Zecevic, who wanted to defend their

17 state, their neighbourhood, but territorially speaking we couldn't count

18 on them because had we appeared in the Dubocani of Velecevo to a meeting,

19 if you lived there and if we came to see you for coffee, on this very same

20 day we would have been arrested and people would say, "Here they are.

21 They are preparing something." So it was from this particular point of

22 view that we thought that we couldn't count on them.

23 Q. I presume that for reasons of secrecy of your preparations the

24 contacts that you had with military commanders from various regions, these

25 contacts were kept only through Nerzet Djeric. Is that correct? Do you

Page 10056

1 remember that decision of yours?

2 A. Nirzet Djeric, aka Kajdzo, was also a reserve officer and all the

3 inhabited places would contact with Kajdzo. They would speak with him.

4 But this was all privately. Somebody would meet up and then this message

5 would be passed on to him. It was such a situation that we really

6 couldn't afford to have more people involved.

7 Q. Do you remember that what was also established was a location

8 where couriers or messengers met, which was the unfinished house of

9 Omer --

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. Do you remember your decision that the financing -- that the

12 public security station of Bosanski Kljuc would be financed through the

13 Bihac bank in Kljuc?

14 A. That's what I said. That's what I said, that the policemen were

15 promised.

16 Q. That's what you just said? Oh, you mean the Bosnian policemen

17 were promised that they would be financed by the Bosnian government?

18 A. Yes, that's what I meant.

19 Q. Do you remember the meeting where you as the Crisis Staff or the

20 Patriotic League, you issued instructions for establishment of armed

21 formations in villages with Muslim population?

22 A. We didn't establish formations. Because it was a crisis, each

23 village had their own sentries, had their own guards. So it was in their

24 own initiative that people had sentries organised. And then once they did

25 it, they would come to us and say, "Is this okay what we are doing?" So

Page 10057

1 this is what we tried, was that -- that Serbs would also join these

2 sentries. For instance, there is -- in Velagici there is a village

3 of Kopjenica where there is Serbs, and we said that they shouldn't think

4 that they would be attacked so it would be good to be in contact with

5 them, because they also had their own sentries, so there wouldn't be some

6 stupidity that happened, some shooting. It would be important to know.

7 So there were lots of guards or patrols because of drunken and daft

8 reservists, so to speak, who were coming back from the front, and they

9 were just fooling around.

10 Q. I didn't ask you about the sentries or the guards. I asked you

11 about the meeting when you issued instructions for establishment of actual

12 armed formations, platoon companies, and so on.

13 A. As far as I know, as far as I was aware, we just said that there

14 would be at Velagici -- that there been a formation, a unit. And then

15 later on each village according to its needs, if they were forced to, then

16 they would do that, because we moved to Velagici at the time when

17 repression started against us and it was in Velagici that we said, "This

18 is where the seat of the Bosnian Kljuc municipality was."

19 Q. Yes. But you went to Velagici in late May; is that correct?

20 A. Officially 25th of May. That was when it actually happened. But

21 there was stuff before then. This was the only location where we could

22 meet where we were not risking our lives and where we were able to meet.

23 And also the Serb authorities in Kljuc let us meet there because they

24 believed that that's how they would keep us in check, that they would keep

25 an eye on us in this way.

Page 10058

1 Q. I was asking about this meeting, as I said at the very beginning.

2 This meeting was held in late April or in the first couple of days of May

3 1992.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember whether this meeting -- there were cards that were

6 being distributed TO BH -- on the front side there was "TO BH" and on the

7 other side there was a name and surname. Do you remember that?

8 A. I remember there was talk of that, but I don't know whether they

9 distributed these cards. I know that there were these cards and it was

10 said they would be distributed. But I know there was talk of that, it did

11 happen, but I don't know whether it actually happened in that meeting.

12 Q. You were already asked by my learned colleague about the

13 instructions that you saw earlier marked with "DB" which was the statement

14 of Alija Delimustafic which was signed, DB95. And because you said that

15 you didn't see the instructions before you were shown it here. Do you

16 know whether your late brother Omer received such a document as a

17 commander or perhaps his deputy Djeric Nerzet?

18 A. As far as I know, no. The only document received by fax was the

19 order from the Ministry about Omer being appointed to become a commander.

20 And again, we didn't receive it personally. It first went to Jovo Banjac.

21 All the documents were passed on the phone. And although we know that

22 the phones were being bugged, even our house phones -- and we tried to use

23 official phones. We thought that they were perhaps not being

24 monitored.

25 Q. Isn't it true that in the course of May 1992 you had a fax machine

Page 10059

1 installed in Pudin Han where the staff of the Territorial Defence was?

2 A. We received a fax machine and the telephone and we set it up, but

3 I don't know whether we had a number for that or not. But we did receive

4 a fax machine and a telephone. My brother and I were stopped by a man in

5 the street as we were going to Velagici, and he said, "Brothers, you're so

6 brave to do this. I was fleeing from you up to now, but the only thing I

7 can do for you to help you is here is this fax that you can have." I

8 can't be sure whether we received the number for it.

9 Q. You were asked by the Prosecution who you received orders from.

10 You said that you received orders from Sarajevo because you said that

11 Sarajevo was the only legitimate authority for you.

12 A. Yes. But it happened through the telephone.

13 Q. I presume that the same thing was valid for all the other

14 municipalities: Sanski Most, Prijedor.

15 A. I don't know. You should ask them. I only know things in

16 relation to Kljuc.

17 Q. When we're talking about these municipalities, you told us that

18 you met Dr. Mujadzic in Prijedor.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember who you met from Sanski Most?

21 A. I still know him today, Mirzet Karabeg.

22 Q. Do you know whether your late brother as TO commander of Kljuc met

23 Suad Sabic, who was a commander there? Do you know Suad Sabic from Sanski

24 Most?

25 A. Well, I know him. We're not close.

Page 10060

1 Q. So he was the commander of the Territorial Defence there, wasn't

2 he?

3 A. He was something or other, but I don't know what exactly.

4 Q. Could you tell me, do you know that your late brother also met

5 Midhat Karadzic from Jajce?

6 A. Yes. They are related through the female line. My sister-in-law

7 and Midhat were relatives.

8 Q. And Midhat was ...?

9 A. He was the president of Jajce municipality.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you. Could you tell me, Mr. Filipovic, we spoke

11 about the weapons that you had as the Patriotic League first and then as

12 Territorial Defence of BH. Is it true that you had about 1.000 pieces

13 as --

14 A. That's not correct. I think 7 to 8 hundred in my assessment, but

15 I include in that old-fashioned pistols, hunting rifles, carbine rifles,

16 automatic rifles, anything that would shoot, anything that would fire.

17 Q. And 12 to 13 hundred people organised.

18 A. I keep saying not so many.

19 Q. There were fewer of them.

20 A. There were fewer of them. Less than 1200. If there had been

21 1200, things would have gone differently.

22 Q. You do know that as the Territorial Defence staff, you also had

23 dynamite and military explosives, plastic explosives? You know that?

24 A. That's not correct. We didn't have that.

25 Q. Didn't you?

Page 10061

1 A. No, we didn't. If somebody had that, perhaps from their -- in

2 their personal possession. Perhaps they worked in a mine in Majdan or

3 something. But we didn't have it.

4 Q. Do you know Mr. Ismet Salihovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is he a person from that milieu, so to speak? He was a miner,

7 wasn't he?

8 A. I don't know what he did. I don't know what he did before the

9 war.

10 Q. Do you know whether he had Vitezit dynamite?

11 A. How can I -- how can I know that? How can I know what he had in

12 his own house? It's possible that he had it in his own house.

13 Q. Mr. Filipovic, could you tell us, you as the staff commander of

14 the Patriotic League until your brother was appointed, you certainly had

15 some weapon, didn't you?

16 A. I had seven 65-millimetre-calibre handgun, legally owned and paid

17 for 1.000 Deutschmarks, and about 40 bullets.

18 Q. And nothing else?

19 A. Nothing else.

20 Q. Do you know that your late brother had a Heckler?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And also Asim Egrlic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know that Asim Egrlic went to Zagreb to use this money from

25 Switzerland, that he had bought some 30-odd automatic rifles, including

Page 10062

1 that Heckler? One he kept for himself; the other one he gave to Omer.

2 A. I don't know how he came to possession that, but I know the two of

3 them had 9-millimetre-calibre Hecklers, yes.

4 Q. Do you know that Asim Egrlic on that occasion also brought some

5 automatic rifles, Zagi? Do you know them?

6 A. No, I didn't know that.

7 Q. Did you see them?

8 A. No, I didn't see them. That's a Croatian production. No.

9 Q. Do you know that Ibrahim Egrlic sold on these Heckler rifles

10 because they were using 9-millimetre-calibre bullets for handguns?

11 A. I don't know that.

12 Q. And he reportedly became rich from that.

13 A. I wouldn't say that. I couldn't claim that. Egrlic was an honest

14 and honourable man. He was much more courageous than his brother Asim,

15 and it is possible that this is out of pure spite that somebody said that

16 about him. He was killed in the war. And I stand by that, that he

17 certainly didn't -- wasn't involved in the sale of weapons.

18 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you as the BH Territorial Defence, did you receive

19 some rifles, AK-47 rifles, from the government in Sarajevo?

20 A. If we received rifles? As far as I know, no.

21 Q. Do you know that the government bought a large number of these

22 particular type of automatic rifles, AK-47?

23 A. Government in Sarajevo?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. From Sarajevo to Kljuc is 225 kilometres. I don't know what they

Page 10063

1 did there. It is possible that they were preparing weapons for

2 self-defence, but I don't know anything about that.

3 Q. Did you perhaps read a book by Hasan Efendic called "Who defended

4 Bosnia?"

5 A. No, I did not.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... DT26, please.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Will you be able to conclude on this in two minutes,

8 Mr. Zecevic?

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Just this document, Your Honour, and then ...

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the same query. I don't think this is

11 one of our documents, so I'd like to know where it comes from.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may explain. This is a document which is a

13 part of a book by Mr. Hasan Efendic, and the book is called "Who defended

14 Bosnia?" And this document is -- is an attachment to the book on the --

15 on page -- just let me find it.

16 [Defence counsel confer]

17 MR. ZECEVIC: And this is a copy of one invoice. And I have been

18 able to obtain the translation. If you don't have any -- I will make the

19 reference in a minute, when we find it, and which page it is. But if you

20 don't have any objection, I would like to ask a question.

21 MS. KORNER: I don't -- I don't have any -- I don't have any

22 objection, Your Honour. I think -- I'd just like to know a little bit

23 about the context of this though.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: There is a translation.

25 MS. KORNER: I appreciate that. But as to whom this -- how this

Page 10064

1 comes into being, as it were.

2 But for the moment, Your Honour, I'm content if the witness is

3 asked the question, and then we can end for today.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead with the question, Mr. Zecevic.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. It's -- just for the transcript, it's page 82

6 of this book, which I -- which I mentioned before. And the book was

7 published in Sarajevo in 1998.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, do you see this invoice?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I presume you haven't seen it before.

11 A. No.

12 Q. You don't know anything about these rifles; is that correct?

13 A. Well, let me tell you. I don't know anything about it. But in

14 every war there is a war -- there is weapons being bought, so the

15 government of Sarajevo had to somehow buy weapons in order to defend their

16 citizens, while the Serbs received weapons from the JNA.

17 Q. But this is February 1992.

18 A. Pardon?

19 Q. This is February 1992.

20 A. Well, in February 1992 the so-called Yugoslav People's Army was

21 already arming Serbs. How can you comment on this saying that there was

22 war in Bosnia and the Serb side had aircraft and helicopters while the

23 government of Sarajevo didn't have anything else but rifles?

24 Q. I hope that we will agree that there was no war in Bosnia in

25 February 1992, I hope.

Page 10065

1 A. There was no war, but there were spies on both sides and there was

2 preparation for war. So certainly intelligence had found out that they

3 were getting ready, that the war was going to start. And this is the

4 first time that I see this. I hadn't read it.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: I will -- I will proceed tomorrow I think another

7 two, two and a half hours. I cannot really be more specific than this.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

9 Tomorrow, by the way, the sitting has been moved to the morning.

10 We have a morning session; if I remember well, in Courtroom III. So

11 we'll meet upstairs at 9.00 sharp tomorrow morning.

12 I thank you all. Have a nice afternoon.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

14 at 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

15 the 26th day of September, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.