Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10066

1 Thursday, 26 September 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning. Please be seated.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 [The accused Talic not present]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, could you call the case, please?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning. This is case

9 number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir

10 Talic.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] As you see Judge Janu

12 couldn't be with us today because she is not feeling well and I have

13 provisionally released her from her responsibilities today. It's only

14 something temporary which should only last today. We shouldn't really be

15 worried about it. But I am going to apply the Rules and we are going to

16 sit with two judges. It shouldn't be a problem with anyone, I suppose.

17 So, Mr. Brdjanin, have you understood what I said?

18 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So you are understanding and you are hearing in a

20 language that you can understand?

21 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear and

22 understand you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, appearances for the

24 Prosecution?

25 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Julian Nicholls, assisted by Denise

Page 10067

1 Gustin as case manager today. I was about to remark, Your Honour, that I

2 appear to have the most appalling affect on my cases because in the Stakic

3 case we had the same problem, although rather more serious.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: This is only something very temporary and we

5 shouldn't be worried about it.

6 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I happened to look very closely at

7 Rules so, Your Honour is quite right. Your Honour can carry on.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?

9 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Milan Trbojevic, attorney. Good

10 morning, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

12 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] And assisted by Marela Jevtovic.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, and good morning to you both.

14 Appearances for General Talic.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and

16 Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau for General Talic.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right, thank you.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: We have the waiver for today's sitting. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So any preliminaries? I hope not.

20 Mr. Usher, please, the witness. And let's hope we can send him

21 back to somewhere where it's more sunny -- where it's sunny, at least.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, to you, Mr. Filipovic.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I invite you to make your solemn declaration once

Page 10068

1 more before we proceed with the cross-examination.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And you may sit down.

8 Mr. Zecevic for General Talic will be continuing with his

9 cross-examination of you.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Filipovic, please allow a

12 brief interval between question and answer and answer and question, so as

13 not to render the interpreters' life more difficult than it already is.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Of course, Your Honour. May the usher please put on

16 the ELMO the map P446.1?

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Filipovic?

18 A. Good morning to you.

19 Q. Mr. Filipovic, yesterday we broke speaking about the weapons. Do

20 you remember? Could you tell me, Mr. Filipovic, do you know the Hukanovic

21 brothers, Arif and Ferid from Vrhpolje, municipality of Sanski Most?

22 A. I heard of them but I don't know them personally.

23 Q. Do you know that the two of them brought weapons to the territory

24 of the municipality of Kljuc?

25 A. I don't know that personally. I've heard some rumours but I don't

Page 10069

1 know that.

2 Q. Thank you. You told us yesterday, you explained what the

3 organisation of the Territorial Defence was. Could you perhaps confirm

4 that the Territorial Defence was organised according to the territorial

5 principle?

6 A. The Territorial Defence of Bosanski Kljuc?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Yes, it was.

9 Q. You will agree with me that there were 12 companies in that

10 territory, in that area?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Fewer than 12?

13 A. As far as I know, officially, we had only one official formation

14 that was in Velagici.

15 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me, is it true that some meetings due

16 to the secrecy that we spoke about, that they were held in mosques?

17 A. Yes. That's true. We had to hold them because we didn't have

18 room to hold them elsewhere.

19 Q. Do you know a hodza from Vrhpolje, an Emir Seferovic?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Were you in contact with the Crisis Staff that was formed in

22 Vrhpolje?

23 A. No, I wasn't. I said that I was only personally in contact with

24 Dr. Nezim Mutic from Prijedor and with Mr. Karabeg because we are friends,

25 close friends.

Page 10070

1 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me, do you know Mr. Muhamed Posovljak

2 [phoen]. He was a hodza in Krasulje?

3 A. I don't think he's Muhamed. I think it's Muharem.

4 Q. Muharem Posovljak?

5 A. I know him as an acquaintance. I know he was a hodza in Krasulje.

6 I know that when he was in the Manjaca camp, he didn't behave well

7 towards me so I don't have a high opinion of him.

8 Q. Do you know perhaps or perhaps you've heard later on that

9 Mr. Posovljak was a hodza from Krasulje. Following the ambush in Krasulje

10 he negotiated with your late brother and Mr. Kondic; do you know that?

11 A. No, I don't. That was at the time when I was already imprisoned

12 on the other side.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Filipovic, could you tell me about some actual

14 events from the 26th of May onwards?

15 A. Of course.

16 Q. 1992. On several occasions during your yesterday's testimony, and

17 during your testimony in examination-in-chief, you said that your main

18 objective in establishing the Patriotic League and the Territorial Defence

19 was the Defence itself.

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. In that sense, you establish -- because of that, you established

22 the staff which was in Pudin Han in the Dom Kulture, in the cultural

23 centre?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And it was to this purpose that there was some trenches that were

Page 10071

1 dug; is that correct?

2 A. That's not correct. That's not correct. Because Kljuc is a town

3 where there have been trenches since Second World War so if there are

4 trenches, there are trenches from the Second World War.

5 Q. I mean the trenches in the area of Velagici, Krasulje, Pudin Han?

6 A. May well be. When there was the incident on the 27th, but before

7 that, as far as I know, no.

8 Q. When you are making the plans for the defence, did you also have

9 a -- the route from withdrawal, route for direction for retreat?

10 A. Well, yes, we had. In our plans, we had planned to somehow

11 establish a contact with Sanski Most and then if it was possible to have a

12 link to Bihac, communication with Bihac because we knew that there was no

13 hope to go towards Banja Luka or Zenica or Sarajevo, because most of the

14 population of our ethnicity were in the Bihac area, in the Bihac region.

15 Q. You know that this route via Vrhpolje towards Bihac, Sanski Most,

16 so towards Bihac, this route was at the end of the day after all these

17 events, this is where the units of Omer Gromilic and Avdo Ceric went; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Could you tell me, you had a plan and in that plan, that a

21 collection point for withdrawal was the village of Krasulje towards

22 Vrhpolje; is that correct?

23 A. Well, this is about midway of that part of the Kljuc municipality,

24 which allowed for the possibility for all the citizens to come, all the

25 locals to come, because it's roughly the centre of the municipality.

Page 10072

1 Q. Would you be so kind to indicate for us on this map, 446, if you

2 can just indicate where Krasulje is, please?

3 A. Here.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Filipovic, could you tell me, so you also had a

5 field hospital, so it to speak, prepared in Hedipoci [phoen]. Do you know

6 that?

7 A. We didn't have a hospital, because we didn't have any equipment,

8 so you can't really say that we had a field hospital. If anyone had any

9 bandages in their possession, but because we all had been in the JNA so we

10 had the first aid kit and that's where the bandages came from. That's the

11 only thing that we had in terms of equipment.

12 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you also had a plan to evacuate civilian

13 population?

14 A. Well of course, that would be logical, if the army is withdrawing,

15 of course the population would withdraw as well, together with the

16 soldiers, because troops, that is the Territorial Defence, is defending

17 the civilian population. It's not defending itself. It's defending the

18 civilians.

19 Q. Thank you. You know that on Tuesday, 26th of May, 1992, eight

20 soldiers came to be imprisoned in the village of Srlinje [phoen], you know

21 that, don't you?

22 A. I think that was 25th of May. 25th or 26th, but more probably it

23 was 25th. I don't know what the number was. I think I said that in my

24 testimony, and my late brother ordered that they should not be harmed,

25 that they had to stay alive, which did happen.

Page 10073

1 Q. During your testimony you told us that you were informed about

2 this by Atif Dedic; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And Atif Dedic, if I remember correctly, your testimony, he was a

5 policeman in Kljuc; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, he was.

7 Q. Do you know that this unit in Srlinje was commanded by Eso

8 Osmanovic?

9 A. I don't know who was the commander but I do know Eso and I know

10 that with Atif together they did -- they informed me.

11 Q. Could you tell me, Eso Osmanovic was from the village of Srlinje?

12 A. Yes, and so was Atif Dedic as well.

13 Q. Very well. So these soldiers were imprisoned or were captured and

14 your late brother issued instructions that they should not be harmed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And this is all that more or less happened on that 26th when you

17 found out; is that right?

18 A. Yes. Except that my brother said that they should be locked up

19 somewhere and then these two said people are very angry, upset, we have

20 IDed them, they are from Kragujevac, they are from Serbia, from

21 Kragujevac, but Omer said that they should be taken to the best house with

22 the best cellar. That's where they should be put, with the most

23 responsible house with the most responsible people who should guard them

24 and nobody should harm them. So they stayed there. I don't know what

25 their further fate was, although I did find out in Manjaca that they

Page 10074

1 stayed alive.

2 Q. Mr. Filipovic, could you tell me, do you know if your late brother

3 managed to establish a contact with the authorities, either military or

4 civilian authorities in Kljuc?

5 A. No, my brother went to Velagici after that incident. He said -- I

6 stayed in Kljuc. My wife and his wife remained, but my brother said what

7 we feared most has just begun. And the wife started to cry and we were

8 very upset as well because we knew what the -- what war meant. Although

9 we hadn't lived through a war, we knew that this was, the beginning of the

10 war.

11 Q. I don't know whether I've understood you correctly. Your brother,

12 after these eight soldiers were captured in the village of Srlinje, they

13 were imprisoned by the unit from the village of Srlinje which had at least

14 30 members?

15 A. I don't know how many members it had, but these were locals.

16 These were local people mostly, all from Srlinje.

17 Q. And that occasion, there were no clashes of any kind between the

18 troops?

19 A. There were no operations there at all, because the reservists from

20 the JNA from Kragujevac, they entered an ambush and they said later on

21 that they had been sent to reconnaissance. Well, you can imagine where

22 Kragujevac is, where Serbia is. They didn't know the field, they didn't

23 know the terrain, so they just walked into the ambush by our boys. But as

24 far as I know, not a shot was fired. There was no fighting of any kind.

25 Q. Precisely because of this, I'm asking you how come that your late

Page 10075

1 brother said, "What I feared most happened"?

2 A. What do you mean? The war. The war was starting. The war was

3 starting. Sometimes it starts with a bullet being fired and sometimes it

4 starts with the murder of the Austro-Hungarian heir to the thrown. And

5 here it started that we were so -- we should be so naive and daft as to

6 kill eight JNA soldiers. We always tried not to do this and I always said

7 and it was true that we prepared ourselves for the defence. We did not

8 want to kill them, and we didn't do it. Omer went to the command in

9 Velagici and whether he had any telephone contact with Vinko Jovo, I don't

10 know. That was 5 kilometres away from where I was.

11 Q. Very well. The next morning, early, there was a barricade that

12 was set up on the main road near the Krasulje village?

13 A. I heard about it later. I wasn't an eyewitness. I wasn't there

14 but I was told about it later.

15 Q. And since we heard all about all this so that we shouldn't go into

16 detail, but the police set off and one unit that was commanded by Aziz

17 Gromilic fired and killed deputy of the -- deputy chief of the police

18 station, killed Dusan Stojkovic and wounded some policemen. You heard

19 about it later?

20 A. Yes. I heard about it later. That's what the rumours were. I

21 have my own personal opinion. I believe that this was not -- these were

22 not -- shots were not fired from the positions of the Territorial Defence

23 of the Bosnian Kljuc Territorial Defence because the last few days before

24 that, the Serb authorities insisted to create an incident so that a clash,

25 conflict, would appear. Of course, the Chamber doesn't have to believe

Page 10076

1 me. This is my opinion. Of course, there has been no investigation to

2 find out from which side Dusan Stojkovic was fired at, so it may have

3 happened that he was fired from the back by his own colleagues, because

4 there was no investigation that was conducted. And it is true that Dusan

5 Stojkovic was killed and Milos Kecman was wounded.

6 Q. You certainly heard that your late brother went to intervene

7 precisely because the police wanted to conduct the investigation. This

8 was not possible because of the resistance proffered by the Territorial

9 Defence unit commanded by Aziz Gromilic, and in fact they waited in an

10 ambush?

11 A. They insisted to come but they didn't want to do an investigation.

12 They wanted to take the body of Dusan Stojkovic. And these boys, these

13 men from Krasulje said, "We will only let you come if Vinko comes and if

14 Omer comes." And then Vinko got in touch with Omer. And I found about --

15 found out about that and because our telephone lines were cut, I was

16 called at home, and he said I had to go and this is when we agreed that I

17 should watch the situation.

18 Q. That ambush in Krasulje was around -- it was in the morning,

19 around 10.00. Wouldn't you agree with that?

20 A. I couldn't say exactly what time it was because it was still a

21 working day, on the 27th people still worked. But I know that about

22 around noon, in the municipality where I had a job, although nothing had

23 been done for the last month, I went out on my own initiative but later on

24 I found out that around -- in the afternoon, all the Muslims and Croats

25 had just been thrown out of the municipality building in Kljuc. They were

Page 10077

1 told that they were Ustashas, that they were balijas. They said, "We

2 don't need you here." These were people who had been colleagues of ours

3 until the other day, lawyers, et cetera who had worked with us.

4 Q. Mr. Filipovic, please let's try to concentrate on the question.

5 A. This is all part of the question.

6 Q. My question is about the ambush at 10.00?

7 A. I think that when the people were thrown out then, and they were

8 thrown out around noon, I think that around that time, it happened,

9 whether it was at 10.00 or 10.15, I don't know, but it was around that

10 time. I'm trying to answer your question properly.

11 Q. Thank you. Tell me, do you know that around noon, fire was opened

12 at a police checkpoint in Velagici?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know Fadil Pobric?

15 A. No, I don't. Maybe if I saw him because there are various names

16 in our place.

17 Q. He had a light machine-gun?

18 A. Very well, but we should know who his father was because there are

19 four Filipovic Muhameds in Kljuc, so if you don't tell me who his father

20 is ...

21 Q. At 1400 hours on that very same day, there was a military convoy

22 in Pudin Han which was ambushed; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, I heard about that. I was told it was on the 27th but again,

24 I don't know when it was exactly because at that time there was shooting

25 in Kljuc from all directions. They even shot from directions where the

Page 10078

1 Green Berets and Territorial Defence couldn't have shot from, from the

2 direction of Rajkovi. That's where fire came from. So that can't be

3 under Muslims and -- a Muslim couldn't have shot from there. That's for

4 sure.

5 Q. After that ambush, after the military convoy was ambushed, do you

6 know that at the time, six soldiers were killed and 25 were seriously

7 wounded?

8 A. That's what I heard when I got to the prison in Stari Gradiska. I

9 didn't know that up until that point, but when the soldier was reporting

10 to the captain, that's when I heard about it.

11 Q. Tell me, after that event that took place at 1400 hours on the

12 27th of May, 1992, the Territorial Defence units blocked the road from

13 Laniste to Kljuc?

14 A. That's possible. I assume that that is what happened.

15 Q. Was that part of the plan that we have discussed, your defence

16 plan?

17 A. Well, not far from Laniste there is a part of the Kljuc

18 municipality. It's only a kilometre or two away. And in that area, in

19 military terms, creating an obstruction would be the safest thing for all

20 those structures that are being defended, that would be the safest place,

21 the best place, to establish an obstruction, you're -- on the territory of

22 your municipality. We didn't enter the municipality of Petrovac. We

23 didn't enter that territory.

24 Q. That same day, on that same day, at around 2000 hours in the

25 evening, 80 kilos of explosives were planted on that same road. Are you

Page 10079

1 aware of this?

2 A. I've heard this -- I've just heard this now from you, because I

3 personally don't think that we had 80 kilos of explosives.

4 Q. Do you know Mr. Zukic Faik who activated those explosives at 5.00

5 in the morning on the next day, on the 28th?

6 A. That's the first time I've heard about this. The first time I've

7 heard that he --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner?

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I have a slight qualification about this

10 cross-examination. At the moment, Mr. Zecevic is asserting a number of

11 things as facts which have not been put in evidence and the witness is

12 being made to believe there is evidence to this effect. I think

13 Mr. Zecevic should rephrase the question slightly.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Ms. Korner is correct, Mr. Zecevic. I know

15 that you haven't come to your stage of bringing forward evidence, of

16 course, but both Ms. Korner and myself come from a jurisdiction where what

17 she has just pointed out is the practice. And I think it ought to be the

18 practice because no witness should be presented with a fact as if this has

19 already been established before this Tribunal or evidence brought forward,

20 et cetera. So in other words, what you need to do is you put it to the

21 question -- to the witness in a way as to ask him whether he has any

22 information or whether he is aware of -- but without making it appear

23 that --

24 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, tell me, in addition to all of

Page 10080

1 this that I have mentioned, the outline of the events in those three --

2 during those three days from the 26th to the 28th of May, when you were

3 arrested in 1992, do you stand by the claim that on that occasion, the

4 Territorial Defence units were defending themselves?

5 A. Yes, that's correct. I stand by that.

6 Q. And you claim that this wasn't a plan, an attack, a plan for an

7 attack that had been prepared in advance?

8 A. No. We knew that if that had happened on our side, if the convoy

9 had been fired at -- well we didn't know that the convoy was going to

10 appear. And secondly, since the situation was as it was, the other side,

11 the Serbian side, should have tried to clarify things in political terms.

12 They shouldn't have sent people to their death. So Vinko Kondic and Jovo

13 Banjac should have said, "Listen people, it's a crisis. Let's sit down

14 and try to reach an agreement." But according to information that I had,

15 they sent Dusan Stojkovic and Milos Kecman, who got out of the car in an

16 aggressive manner. They verbally attacked people. They cursed their

17 Turkish mothers, they said, "What do you Turks want?" That's what people

18 say. I wasn't there, but I'm just telling you what people in Manjaca told

19 me. And it is my personal opinion that that would have been possible if

20 war was to be avoided, then a political meeting should have been held to

21 attempt to do this, to avoid war. So if there hadn't been any defence

22 from the direction of Brescica -- Ravko Boric [phoen] and Marko Adamovic

23 commanded these units. They were deployed and fired at Velagici. People

24 had to defend themselves. So it was pure defence. So I stand by the

25 claim that we defended ourselves.

Page 10081

1 Q. Sir, you've already spoken about this in the course of the

2 examination-in-chief, but there is just one other thing. When you speak

3 about this ambush in Krasulje when Dusan Stojkovic and Milos were killed,

4 you said that they irritated because they got out of the car in an

5 aggressive manner. Would it be true to say that the ambush had already

6 been laid there?

7 A. Well, the -- Mr. Zecevic, the men were at their positions, but I

8 can claim for sure that none of our men had the intention to do anything,

9 to take any action. But would you allow me to enter your house in

10 Belgrade, which is where you're from, and allow me to steal things, to

11 rape? You have to defend yourselves. If there is no system to defend

12 you, you have to defend yourself.

13 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you know that on those same days, from the 25th of

14 May to the 27th of May, in the territory of Prijedor municipality and in

15 the territory of the -- of Hrustovo and Vrhpolje too, there were also

16 defensive actions carried out by the BH Territorial Defence as you say?

17 A. Sir, if you have followed the situation in Bosnia in 1992, if you

18 followed the situation, everything took place within two days. In Kljuc

19 it began on the 27th. Two days before, it was in Sana and two days before

20 Sana, there was Prijedor. So on the basis of this analogy, if we look

21 back into the past, it's not possible to say that people provoked

22 conflicts but the JNA that had been organised went from place to place and

23 I'm talking in military terms. If at the same time -- if they had

24 attacked the Bosnia-Herzegovina, all of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the same

25 time, things would have been different, because people were under the

Page 10082

1 impression they are going to attack Prijedor and the people in Sana said,

2 "They are not going to attack us. They will stop in Prijedor." I have

3 such experience in Kljuc. When they came to Sanski Most, they said,

4 "Well, let it be, they will stop in Sana and nothing will happen in

5 Kljuc." And then two days later, the same thing happened in Kljuc.

6 Q. Mr. Filipovic, wouldn't it be true to say that there was a

7 coordinated action in the territory of Prijedor, Sanski Most and Kljuc by

8 the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the objective of this

9 action was to cut offer the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

10 A. As far as I know, that's not true. I know that we in Kljuc worked

11 on an independent basis and therefore, if it had been coordinated, we

12 would have made a move on the same -- on the same day when Kozarac and

13 Prijedor were attacked. So there was no coordination.

14 Q. Would you be so kind to show us on this map, 446, could you show

15 us the following places, Kozarac, Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, and Velagici down

16 below. Kozarac, first, please?

17 Q. If you can't find it on the map point to somewhere nearby?

18 A. It's in the immediate vicinity of Prijedor. A few kilometres from

19 Prijedor, you know. So next to Prijedor itself.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] ... recognise the names

21 on this map? Thank you. So Kozarac is -- yeah --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.



25 Q. [Interpretation] Could you now show us where Vrhpolje and Hrustovo

Page 10083

1 are located in the territory of Sanski Most municipality?

2 A. Could you please zoom in on to Sanski Most?

3 Q. Vrhpolje and Hrustovo, please?

4 A. Just a minute. Vrhpolje and Hrustovo, these are two villages

5 which up until 1962, were in the municipality of Kljuc, and from 1962

6 onwards they became part of Sanski Most.

7 Q. And finally Velagici, please?

8 A. Velagici. Could you zoom in? Velagici is here.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the technician please zoom out a bit so we can

10 see the whole map, please?

11 Q. [Interpretation] You would agree that the line which would connect

12 these three places or the four places that you have indicated, really

13 passes through the middle and cuts through Bosnian Krajina, it separates

14 it into two parts, isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes. Geographically, you see.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filipovic.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: May the witness be shown DT-30, please?

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, this is a magnified photocopy of

19 your brother's signature. We think that this is your brother's signature.

20 Could you perhaps confirm this for us?

21 A. I think that it should be his signature, that it is his

22 signature. But this letter here, it was a bit bigger when he signed, but

23 I don't know under what conditions he signed this, but this letter "O" was

24 always as big as the "V."

25 Q. But you allow for the possibility that this could be your

Page 10084

1 brother's signature?

2 A. Yes. I don't know under what conditions he signed this, but this

3 is his signature but the letter "O" should be a little bigger, because my

4 signature is such that anyone could read it, but it's easy for me to

5 recognise my own signature.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the witness be shown, please, P90? And

7 Mr. Usher, what I would like you to do is put DT-30 on the ELMO and this

8 document which the witness is actually inspecting right now. Both of

9 them, please.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, this is an official report from

11 the MBO and the SDA in Kljuc dated the 31st of October, 1991; isn't that

12 correct?

13 A. I haven't read it correctly, but -- I haven't read it well, but it

14 could be.

15 Q. I'm only interested in the signature of your late brother, which

16 is at the back of the document.

17 A. Yes, but as I said, have a look.

18 Q. Would you be so kind as to put both documents there and to

19 indicate to us what the difference is?

20 A. Well, you can see the letter "V" and the letter "O" here in his

21 signature. They are more or less the same size. You can't measure it

22 this in millimetres but it should be more or less the same size but here,

23 the "V" is bigger than the "V" here, but I still think that this is his

24 signature. It depends on how -- whether he was in a hurry when he signed,

25 but I would just comment on the letter "O" because if you -- I would

Page 10085

1 object to the letter "O" because if you compare it with the signature

2 here, you can see that the letter "V" is about the same size as the letter

3 "O."

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filipovic.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the witness be shown, please, DT31?

6 MS. KORNER: Can I ask what it is?

7 MR. ZECEVIC: This is the statement of the late Omer Filipovic.

8 MS. KORNER: Is there a translation?

9 MR. ZECEVIC: No. Unfortunately the translation is not available.

10 As soon as we got it on the 26th of August, we gave it and unfortunately I

11 don't have a translation as yet.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'd ask that we be provided with a

13 translation before documents are being put in, if that's possible or a

14 summary. We try at least to do a summary.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You're right, Ms. Korner.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours we have given the document as soon as

17 we found the document when we came over here on the 26th of August, and it

18 is with the ICLC and its translation is still pending, as far as I'm aware

19 of. And we called them and the Registry and asked them many times that

20 this be provided if possible, but unfortunately, until today, we don't

21 have it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, in the first break, in the course

23 of the first break, could you check with the department concerned to see

24 what has happened to this document? And in any case, irrespective of

25 whether they have translated it or not, signal the importance and the need

Page 10086

1 to have it translated by next Monday at the latest.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Have the interpreters been provided a copy.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. May I proceed?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.


7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, have you seen this statement

8 before?

9 A. No. This is the first time I've seen it, and as I said earlier

10 on, it depends under what conditions he signed. So the circumstances of

11 the investigation while he was in prison, and you would agree with me that

12 in such cases, something changes in a man so perhaps his signature changed

13 too. That's a possibility.

14 Q. Tell me, on the last page, the date is the 29th of May, 1992?

15 A. Yes. That's correct. The 29th of May, 1992, in Kljuc.

16 Q. Unfortunately, since we don't have the translation, we will have

17 to go through this statement very briefly and I'm going to read certain

18 parts out to you. On page 4, the third paragraph, "In the area of the

19 town centre in which the population is mixed, Muslim and Serb, we did not

20 have any units that had been formed, because there were no conditions for

21 them to take action. But in suburb and settlements we had formed two

22 companies, for the Sehici settlement, one company with the commander Rifat

23 Sehic, who had been elected by soldiers from that company. The second

24 company was for the Rejzovici settlement, for Mali Rejzovici settlement

25 and for the Egrlici settlement. The commander of this company was Ibrahim

Page 10087

1 Egrlic, a reserve captain.

2 "In the territory of the Velagici local commune, we had three

3 companies. Djeric Nevzet, a reserve colonel was -- had the duty of

4 organising these companies. In cooperation with soldiers he worked on

5 electing and appointing a company commander. The exact deployment of the

6 commanders, according to -- in the units, is something that I do not know.

7 I know that from the 27th of May of this year, Avdic Amir, in brackets,

8 who worked on the formation of the units for the Biljani area, Salihovic

9 Salih, and Ceman Fahrudin, who had a high political post, worked directly

10 with me or they contacted me through the intermediary of someone else. I

11 can't remember any other names and I don't know the platoon commanders.

12 "For the Biljani area, as I have already said, Avdic Amir was

13 responsible for this area. But just before the conflict began on the 27th

14 of May, he moved over to Vojici from Biljani, a few days prior to this

15 date. And he is married in Vojici. Ale Mujezinovic was made responsible

16 for Biljani but not by me. And he formed three companies in this area. I

17 don't know the names of any other commanders. Ale Mujezinovic may be the

18 commander of one company."

19 I'm not going to read out what it says about the Sanica settlement

20 but in the following paragraph, "In the area of Krasulje, which belongs to

21 the local commune of Peci, and given how we have organised this, it is in

22 fact an independent local commune, the organisation of one fortified

23 company in terms of numbers, not in terms of materiel and equipment which

24 consisted of about 150 people, was led and organised by Ismet Muratagic.

25 I don't know the officers subordinated to him."

Page 10088

1 What I have just read is contained in the statement, isn't that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, but before all this, when you asked about that meeting

4 yesterday, I said that if we had had all of this at our disposal, the

5 sixth American fleet wouldn't have been necessary for us. What has been

6 said about Krasulje is okay, is correct, but not about Biljani. What was

7 said about Velagici is correct, and I continue to claim that there were

8 people who joined up in Krasulje and in Velagici.

9 Q. Further on in the statement, as you will see, Mr. Filipovic, your

10 late brother further speaks about other villages and local communes where

11 there were also units, like the local commune of Humici, settlement of

12 Srlinje, settlement of Laniste, local commune of Kamecak [phoen] and so

13 on.

14 On page 6, so that we don't waste much time, the very last

15 paragraph on page 6, "According to my assessment, one could count or at

16 least I counted on composition of 1200 to 1300 people. As for the

17 weapons, I believe that not all men were armed. I think that we had at

18 our disposal about 800 guns, pieces of different types. Mostly these were

19 hunting weapons with permits, pistols or handguns with permits, while as

20 far as the non-registered weapons were concerned, these were mostly

21 automatic and semi-automatic rifles. I cannot comment on the number of

22 automatic rifles. We had some M-53 light machine-guns. I saw one army

23 sniper, when one of the soldiers brought it to the cultural centre and

24 asked Djeric to explain something to him. We had at our disposal one

25 mortar, 60 millimetre mortar. We had one hand-held launcher, and up to

Page 10089

1 ten rocket -- hand-held rocket launchers. The position of mortar was in

2 the area of Vojici"?

3 A. You should read how many shells we had.

4 Q. Mr. Filipovic, --

5 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, we are all at a loss now, if that is in

6 the document that the witness has just referred to, then it ought to be

7 read to him.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it in the document?

9 MS. KORNER: I don't know, but he's just said you should read the

10 shells. Now I have no way of reading the shells because there is no

11 translation.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Filipovic, you know the document, we don't.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't. Is there mention of the amount of shells.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: That is right, Your Honour, but I'm conducting the

16 cross-examination and not the witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But if the witness says, "I could have a whole

18 arsenal of weapons, but if I don't have any ammunition, I can't use it.

19 MS. KORNER: The difficulty is absolutely right. I could

20 re-examine if that was possible but it isn't. And if a witness actually

21 says, "Read on." Normally I would stand up and say you should read the

22 next sentence because I'm able to see what the next sentence is.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: No problem. I should read the next sentence as well

24 then.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. Any way, I mean let's not make an

Page 10090

1 incident out of this.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, not at all.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: If you know where the relevant --

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Points out, yes, I know.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, not just to let you worry about

6 this, you will of course have the opportunity to re-examine the witness as

7 soon as Mr. Zecevic finishes. However, if on the basis of this, the

8 incognito element of this document, you feel uncomfortable about

9 concluding your re-examination, I can reserve you the right to bring back

10 Mr. Filipovic if necessary.

11 MS. KORNER: I would hope, Your Honour, that won't be, but if

12 necessary, until I see a full translation of this document -- I haven't

13 the faintest idea what's in it, and I think I'm going to say in future, I

14 should, I'm afraid with everything that happened, I didn't appreciate that

15 we had an untranslated document given to us. I'm going to object to

16 documents being put in unless we are provided with some kind of

17 translation.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: On the other hand, I mean they submitted it way back

19 in August. So it's --

20 MR. ZECEVIC: A month now.

21 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, they have their own -- it's

22 perfectly possible to provide at least a summary or a translation

23 themselves of what parts are going to be put, but anyhow Your Honour I'm

24 just saying that for the moment.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Let me just address this, Your Honour. We have

Page 10091

1 provided the Prosecutor -- the Prosecution with -- we disclosed the copy

2 of this statement at the same time when we gave it to the translators, so

3 on the August 26th. Since the Prosecutor's Office has means and the whole

4 staff of translators, I would assume that you will have the, at least the

5 summary or an unofficial translation, because according to the practice of

6 this Tribunal, we are not allowed to have our translations but we have to

7 apply to the CLSS. Thank you. May I proceed, Your Honour?



10 Q. [Interpretation] "We had at our disposal four mortar shells, that,

11 according to what I learned, were not used. The position of the rocket

12 launcher -- not the -- the RB, the hand-held rocket launcher, I cannot

13 tell you about because I didn't decide on its use, but I don't think that

14 it was used, that it fired." On this same page, page 7, Mr. Filipovic,

15 fifth paragraph, "The men were dressed in civilian clothes. I only saw

16 one man in a camouflage uniform. He had a shirt on his head. He had a

17 classic army cap. So I only saw his eyes. And the cap or the Balaclava

18 was in olive-drab colour, but we didn't use camouflage in practice. We

19 didn't have insignia, considering the differences in caps and so on and so

20 on."

21 Mr. Filipovic, do you want me to read anything else or could I ask

22 you a question?

23 A. Yes, you can ask a question.

24 Q. According to this statement, as I managed to count it all, in the

25 area which was commanded by the Patriotic League staff and the Territorial

Page 10092

1 Defence staff, you had all in all 12 companies?

2 A. Yesterday, Mr. Zecevic, I told you or I quoted you the song about

3 wishes and desires. We -- that these were our plans, and my brother when

4 he was analysing it all, he was doing it with the assumption there would

5 1200 to 1300 people. These were assumptions, but the actual factual

6 state, as I keep saying to you, has been 700 to 800 people in pieces [As

7 interpreted]. Even in this report it says there were about 800 pieces.

8 And in my testimony, before I even saw this, I keep saying to you, there

9 were about 800 pieces. I say to you there were that many men who were

10 ready to fight, but about a month before the start of aggression against

11 Kljuc, on one of the meetings, when we analysed all this and we were

12 saying, there is this and there is this, I stood up and I said, "The U.S.

13 Sixth fleet won't be able to touch us if we have all these weapons and all

14 these troops." But at the end of the day, it turned out that I was right.

15 Half of these people were only talking and when push came to shove, they

16 fled. So from this last meeting, until the conflict broke out, many of

17 them fled abroad.

18 Q. Mr. Filipovic, let's go back it to page 6, please, the last

19 paragraph, we just read it a moment ago.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Your late brother said, "According to my assessment, we were able

22 to count on, that is I counted on 1200 to 1300 men."

23 A. That's what I just told you. He counted on that but the actual

24 situation was not this.

25 Q. When you count on something, that means that it really exists.

Page 10093

1 You cannot count on something that doesn't exist.

2 A. Well, I cannot break the rules of the Chamber. I could tell you

3 other things. I can tell you about what the Serb side thought but I'm not

4 going to tell you that.



7 Q. [Interpretation] Your late brother Omer, did he tell you about

8 giving a statement in Kljuc in the police station in Kljuc?

9 A. I learned from him, he was arrested on the 29th and the first time

10 I saw him in Stara Gradiska, the 11th of June on the first Hadzijski

11 Bajram, I met him in prison and he then told me that he was being treated

12 rather correctly, mostly thanks to Vinko, who was trying to somehow keep

13 up the old friendship. And he said, "To date, I am alive because of

14 Vinko. But if it was up to Jovo Banjac, I would have been dead on the

15 29th." And he then told me, "I am being treated as a political prisoner.

16 I am being interrogated. And to date," and this was spoken on the 11th of

17 June, "to date I have not been hit." And he said, "Dear brother, I am

18 very sorry to see what they have done to you." And this is when I found

19 out about it. Of course I didn't know about this. He said he was

20 interrogated. He even said that president Todo Gajic came, and I don't

21 know who else came to interrogate him, to Stara Gradiska, nearly every

22 day, so I don't know specifically because he also told me that in Kljuc,

23 he also gave statements and that he was interrogated.

24 Q. Thank you, sir.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Madam usher, I don't need the document any more.

Page 10094

1 Q. It [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, could you tell me here, during

2 your examination-in-chief, you said that you also gave a statement in

3 Manjaca, didn't you?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And you said that you were mistreated before and after you gave

6 the statement, but that in the statement, what's included is what you did

7 say on that occasion, that not all is true but that you did say that on

8 that occasion; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Filipovic, during the examination-in-chief, the

11 Prosecutor showed you a document and asked you to comment on the part of

12 that document [In English] 3012, please.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel speak into the microphone, please?

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I will try my best.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember seeing this document,

16 Mr. Filipovic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just one thing. During your examination-in-chief, you looked on

19 page 17 of this document, which speaks about detecting and preventing

20 perpetrators of various criminal offences and on that occasion, the

21 Prosecutor stressed this and presented as such that these were isolated

22 criminal offences. Do you remember this?

23 MS. KORNER: Could I have a reference, please, for the transcript?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. --

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. I don't have it over here. I am

Page 10095

1 sure that it was -- may I rephrase, then, the question? Because I don't

2 have unfortunately the reference.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: I didn't thought that it would be objected.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do.

6 MS. KORNER: It's not an objection. I'm simply -- it's the way

7 the question was put so I'd quite like to see what I said.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We all do, sometimes.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I'm withdrawing that question.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, I'm going to read to you the last

11 two sentences of this document on page 17: "So far, up until now, 163

12 break-ins and 43 incidents of arson have been registered. The intensity

13 of combat activities, the urgency to apprehend extremists, as well as

14 unsafe and dangerous movement in certain areas, has all made the detection

15 of the perpetrators of the aforementioned offences impossible. In

16 addition to that, the complex security situation, the atmosphere of fear

17 and the way of thinking on the part of the citizens who have refused to

18 cooperate, have simply paralysed all our activities."

19 Mr. Filipovic, in your opinion, do you think that 163 break-ins

20 and 43 incidents of arson represent isolated criminal offences or not?

21 A. Let me tell you something. This is July, 1992, which means that

22 from the 27th of May until July, 1992, there were many more break-ins and

23 torchings. You can go through the report of the public security station

24 because they were trying to cover themselves because in Kljuc, many

25 buildings were destroyed. You can just go 200 metres near by house and my

Page 10096

1 brother's house and this was all looted, so these two lootings near our

2 house -- excuse me could you please repeat the question so that I can

3 answer it? Was it 163? Is that isolated?

4 Q. 163 break-ins and 43 incidents of arson. Does this represent

5 isolated criminal offences?

6 A. I do not think these are isolated criminal offences. This was

7 done according to plan. This was intentional. How can it be isolated?

8 It's isolated when it's one or two. And I claim there were many more than

9 163.

10 Q. In relation to your claim, when you say from the 27th of May to

11 July, 1992, there were many more, you were arrested in -- on the 28th of

12 May, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So this is not something you know firsthand? You heard about it?

15 You learned about it?

16 A. No, not firsthand, but I had the cassette. This was my first

17 touch with the town of Kljuc, with the municipality of Kljuc. So it was

18 from this cassette that I saw and if we could see good recording in the

19 original on that cassette you would be able to count that there were many

20 more than 163, more than 43 incidents of arson. There were not a house

21 that wasn't looted, either television taken, car taken.

22 Q. You mentioned this in relation to the cassette. We wasted

23 sometime in relation to what the cassette showed, in relation to

24 Dr. Kapetanovic. You remember that?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 10097

1 Q. On that occasion, you said, if I recall well, that he gave a

2 statement and that the following day, he was in Manjaca?

3 A. Whether that was the day after or two days after, very soon

4 afterwards, he was sent to Manjaca.

5 Q. And that in your opinion, this was propaganda?

6 A. Absolutely. Just like it was propaganda while we were in Manjaca,

7 the Banja Luka television came to film us, camp prisoners, brought in an

8 accordion and for a few cigarettes, they made somebody play harmonica, and

9 then what they say, the footage was here, there are Muslims having a

10 holiday.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: May the witness be shown P930, please?

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, I will show you a document.

13 Dr. Kapetanovic's name is Emir, isn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you have a look at the document?

16 A. There is a list of persons from Humic who have not been

17 interrogated, from Plamenica, Velagici to Bocani.

18 Q. This is an unofficial document which is a list of people who have

19 not been interrogated and who are supposed to be detained. We can assume

20 that this document comes from the police.

21 A. I presume, when we are talking about people who have not been

22 interrogated from the area of Humic.

23 Q. On the penultimate page, you can see a list of the uninterrogated

24 people from Kljuc that are to be detained under item 1. Is the name of

25 Dr. Kapetanovic?

Page 10098

1 A. It says Emir Kapetanovic but I don't know whether this is the

2 doctor, but he is this -- it does say Emir Kapetanovic.

3 Q. Were there many Emir Kapetanovics in Kljuc?

4 A. There were many Kapetanovics, but I don't know, but I think it is

5 the Emir Kapetanovic because below him there is Husid Raganovi [phoen] and

6 the two of them were brought to Manjaca together.

7 Q. So you do think that this is Dr. Kapetanovic?

8 A. Yes, I do think this is Dr. Kapetanovic.

9 Q. So it is probably you'll allow for the possibility, that during

10 operative work they came to some information. It was only subsequently

11 that they took a statement from Dr. Kapetanovic and then detained him?

12 A. I cannot allow for that because the mistake, if that we call the

13 error on the part of the SDS in it relation to Dr. Kapetanovic was that

14 Dr. Kapetanovic had his gynaecological outpatient's clinic in Velagici.

15 So he was accused, there is a document to that effect, he was accused by

16 the public security station. He was accused as being a member of the

17 medical department of the Kljuc Territorial Defence staff, but I'm just

18 saying that his only crime was that he had his outpatient's clinic in the

19 Dom, which is about 3 kilometres from the town because Kljuc was very

20 expensive for renting.

21 Q. Are you aware that Dr. Kapetanovic on the 27th of May, 1992, in

22 Velagici, among other things, he also treated Sefik Muratagic who was

23 wounded when the checkpoint in -- the police was attacked in Velagici?

24 A. That day, he said that he was -- up to a point on that day, it was

25 a working day, and he just happened to be in his clinic. He was working.

Page 10099

1 And as far as I know, he wanted, as we say that in Bosnia, when push came

2 to shove, he wanted to split but when there was shooting, they wouldn't --

3 his people wouldn't let him. They said, "You're the doctor." So he

4 stayed, forced by circumstances. And that's how he administered medical

5 help. If he had known what would happen, of course, he wouldn't have been

6 in Velagici on the 27th of May. Because I know when we called him to join

7 the staff, he didn't want to, because his kum or his best friend, his best

8 man, was Miljenko. He was a vojvoda, or a duke, and he always spoke of,

9 "No, no, I'm with my friend, I'm with my kum. I'm with the duke."

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filipovic.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours may I pose one more question and then

12 we can have the break.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Go ahead.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Since we mentioned the videotape that you

16 commented on, do you remember that on one occasion, on the cassette, Mr.

17 Banjac appears on the cassette?

18 A. Jovo?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Not once, several times.

21 Q. And you commented that when we were watching the tape here, you

22 said that Mr. Banjac was speaking in favour of peaceful movement of people

23 and you characterised this as ethnic cleansing.

24 A. I characterised it, but Mr. Banjac was the one who was doing the

25 speaking, not me. He was talking about the displacement, the movement,

Page 10100

1 the people, and I only said this was ethnic cleansing.

2 Q. Ethnic cleansing. You as a politician, you certainly know, you

3 know, you are aware of Cutilheiro's plan about the cantonisation,

4 Cutilheiro's plan from 1992, about the so-called peaceful displacement or

5 movement of people?

6 A. As far as I know about Cutilheiro's plan from Lisbon, this was

7 not, as far as I know, this was not about moving people, this was just

8 about a division of Bosnia, according to ethnic division, and I know that

9 according to this division, the Muslim side, so to speak, would get --

10 would have received a lot more than according to the Dayton Agreement.

11 But as for the movement of people, this is the first time that I hear that

12 this plan involved displacement of population.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: That's the question. I think we should take the

14 break now, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Mr. Filipovic.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, just before the break and on that

18 document, I'm delighted that Mr. Zecevic says we can assume it comes from

19 the police because we assume it comes from the police as well, but I

20 should say that it was a document objected to on two grounds. The first,

21 that it was unsigned and unsealed, and secondly, it was actually received

22 by us from AID. So again I'm just making the point, yet again, that on

23 the one hand the Defence object to the authenticity of the document, on

24 the other hand, they are now using them.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I have stated very clearly that this

Page 10101

1 is unofficial document. When I was asking the witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Any way, with regard to the untranslated document, I

3 have information that the request date was suggested or was put to them as

4 being the end of September and therefore they have been working towards

5 30/9, that's Monday, deadline. So perhaps Ms. Korner, I mean since the

6 time for your -- for the re-examination of witness I assume would arrive

7 in about two hours' time, if you could do something about it.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I'm going to have the document read

9 through, although it's not the most desirable way of dealing with it, but

10 it's the best I can do.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I know, but in the meantime we will have a break of

12 30 minutes. That should be enough.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, if I may, just one clarification. We

18 have checked out our records. Our records clearly state that we have

19 given this document for translation on the 26th of August, and stated as

20 soon as possible, assuming ten days, because we assumed that this witness

21 will appear of course at the beginning of September. And we in no way

22 suggested the 30th of September because it wouldn't make any sense because

23 at that time we didn't know what was -- what has happened actually,

24 unfortunately, events which took place after the 9th of September, so I

25 just want to clarify that very clearly.

Page 10102

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And [Microphone not activated] Madam Registrar

2 please pass on what Mr. Zecevic has just stated to the CLSS because the

3 two versions are conflicting and we have a right to know. I fully

4 understand of course that the CLSS are very much overloaded with work and

5 I would appreciate their cooperation in this matter to the best of their

6 present capacity and ability. So you may proceed with your

7 cross-examination.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you anticipate to finish before the next break?

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Probably not more than 45 minutes. Thank you.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, we were speaking about

12 Cutilheiro's plan. You said you weren't aware of the part that referred

13 to peacefully and moving people out, et cetera, et cetera. Are you aware

14 of the fact that the leaders of the SDA from Bihac, Mr. Ibrahim

15 Ljubijankic Pasic [As interpreted], negotiated on an exchange of

16 population in May and June, 1992? And they were to move Serbs to the

17 Banja Luka area and the Muslims from that area were to be moved to Bihac?

18 Are you aware of this?

19 A. No. I don't know about this. What I do know is that they asked

20 that we be released from Manjaca, they would give people in exchange.

21 They asked for the four of us, four of us Filipovics, they asked for us to

22 be released and they were ready to give as many people as the Serbian side

23 requested. That's what I am aware of. I don't know about anything else.

24 Q. You said that that was as part of an exchange of certain

25 individuals and not as part of an exchange of population?

Page 10103

1 A. Yes, as far as I know, they asked that we be released, my brother

2 and myself, relative of mine whom we have already mentioned and I don't

3 know who else and they said that in this exchange, they would give the

4 people demanded by the Serbian side.

5 Q. Mr. Filipovic, have you read Sefer Halilovic's book, "The Cunning

6 Strategy"?

7 A. No. I'm aware of it through the press, but I have not read the

8 book.

9 Q. Mr. Halilovic on page 196 of this book, in an extract from the

10 session of the BH Presidency, dated the 20th of June, 1992, discussed that

11 agreement and criticised it. You're not aware of this?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Mr. Filipovic, if I remember correctly, you testified here that

14 you arrived in Manjaca on the 15th of June; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct, in the afternoon.

16 Q. Mr. Filipovic, tell me, if you can of course, in your opinion, how

17 many detainees were there in Manjaca at the time?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived there, there were --

20 I don't know if you have a sketch of Manjaca. I would have brought it

21 with me if I'd known. There are six stables there. When I got there on

22 the 15th of June, there were people from Grapska there, that's near Doboj,

23 people from Kljuc were there and there were people from Sanjani and some

24 others. So in the first three stables, next to the military command, near

25 the offices of Colonel Popovic, that's where there were a few huts in

Page 10104

1 those three -- those three places were full. And in June, when people

2 were brought in from Sanica [As interpreted], and at the time the stable I

3 was in had about 800 plus people, but on average there were between 700

4 and 1.000 people in the stable. But there were 800 in my stable so 3

5 times 800 that's 2400, so give or take a certain number, around 2.000, but

6 then when Omarska was shut down, the other three stables were -- people

7 from the other three stables were transferred where the others had been

8 taken, but we had no contact because there was a wire fence separating us,

9 so we had no contact with people over there.


11 Q. [Interpretation] So around the 15th of June when you arrived

12 there, in your opinion, there were about 2.000 people there?

13 A. When I got there, there were fewer people, but by the end of June,

14 I would guess that there were about 2.000 people there.

15 Q. It tell me, could you tell us how many guards there were in your

16 opinion?

17 A. Well, I could -- I couldn't say, because I was immobile when I got

18 there, but I know that at that time, when we were being taken in, well,

19 I'd say about 50 at least, because above the entrance to the camp there

20 was an observation post, there was a light machine-gun there and there

21 were two soldiers up there. And then a little further on, there were

22 guards who would move around freely, and in this part of the command,

23 there were the soldiers who served there, they had olive drab uniforms and

24 the others were wearing camouflage uniforms. And they had workshops of

25 some sort, they would repair cars. But I don't know. I was immobile. I

Page 10105

1 only went out of my stable on two occasions and went to that part over

2 there. On one occasion, I went to the doctor to be examined and one

3 occasion I went to be interrogated.

4 Q. So in your opinion, about 50 guards?

5 A. Well, there could have been more because there were shifts, so

6 perhaps there were 50 of them in one shift and then they would finish and

7 second shift would take over and so on. But there were warnings around

8 the camp, they warned about the mines and you could see how the mines had

9 been dug in.

10 Q. I'm asking you this because in your statement and some other

11 witnesses also spoke about this, three names were mentioned, a certain

12 Zoka, a certain Spaga and Fadil Bula?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Could you explain this to us? Could you -- why only these three

15 names mentioned? Do you know why this is the case?

16 A. Well, yes, I do.

17 Q. In your opinion?

18 A. Well, Your Honours, in my opinion, forgive me for this comparison

19 but I know about Your Honours, I know about you, but the Chamber isn't --

20 the room is full, the courtroom is full. But in the Manjaca camp we knew

21 about Commander Popovic and about the extremists who would beat people to

22 exhaustion, Zoka, Fadil and Spaga, Spaga he was some sort of warden, and

23 he gave himself the right to take a horse and go through the canteen --

24 let's say it was the canteen. It wasn't really a canteen. It was just a

25 place that had been covered up -- he would go through on horse back and

Page 10106

1 then Tadic -- well, those people persons were mentioned, they were the

2 leading men there. The main men. We called him Fadil Bula, but his name

3 was Zeljko Bulatovic. But because he introduced himself to us and when he

4 beat us he said "I'm a balija like you but I serve Karadzic." He was the

5 most notorious one there.

6 Q. Tell me, you say extremists. You were beaten, when you were being

7 taken into Manjaca, and on that occasion, that person, Fadil Bula he --

8 A. I stand by what I have said. I was first beating in Kljuc and

9 then on the way from Kljuc to Mali Logor and in Stara Gradiska and when I

10 got to Manjaca, Fadil Bula beat me, so that in medical terms, one could

11 say that I was not really a victim in Manjaca. I stand by what I say, but

12 other peoples were victims, but the person responsible for all the evil in

13 Manjaca was Zeljko Bulatovic. He was the initiator. He was the person

14 everyone feared.

15 Q. In your testimony, you said that you were only beaten on other

16 occasion after you had been taken in because were you late for the lineup;

17 is that correct?

18 A. This is what I said: When I got there for the first time on the

19 15th, he beat me very badly, and later on, I was beaten when I went to the

20 supervisor. But once they called us to line up -- I think that was every

21 Wednesday or every Tuesday. I can't remember the exact day -- but as I

22 was an invalid, the others knew that you had to go and line up

23 immediately, but by the time I got there I was hit with a truncheon on

24 that occasion.

25 Q. Tell me, that Bulatovic, Fadil Bula, whatever his name was, on

Page 10107

1 that occasion when you got there, he beat your late brother Omer who

2 wanted to help you; isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And he then found out that you and the late Omer were brothers?

5 A. That we were brothers, yes, because Omer said "I've got to help

6 him. He's my brother." And they said, "Well, since you have to, we will

7 do it to you too." And Omer later told me that was the first time he was

8 beaten, that he hadn't been beaten in Stara Gradiska and he hadn't been

9 beaten in Kljuc either.

10 Q. In your testimony you also said that Fadil Bula, this person

11 called Bulatovic, also maltreated your late brother, poured tea over him,

12 mocked him and called him professor, et cetera?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And similarly, Omer didn't remain in his debt; isn't that correct?

15 A. Well, Omer was a brave man and he had to have the courage and the

16 daring in a concentration camp such as Manjaca, to reply when he was

17 asked, "What are you thinking about professor?" And he said, "I'm

18 thinking about writing a book." And he asked, "Will there be room for me?

19 He said, "Yes, there will be room for you. You're going to be the main

20 hero in that book, the main protagonist." At that time it was necessary

21 to have the courage to say such a thing.

22 Q. Would you agree with me that Fadil Bula, Bulatovic had, so to

23 speak, something against your brother?

24 A. Well, I think that is the case. And I think that someone

25 persuaded him to adopt such an attitude because he would suddenly turn up

Page 10108

1 when it wasn't time. When Commander Popovic said, for example, "No one

2 else must enter any more," he would turn up at 8.00 and stand by Omer and

3 then start singing those old Serbian songs. And he would just change one

4 of the words and put the name Omer Filipovic in the song. He would modify

5 the song a bit and provoke him in this way.

6 Q. Tell me, Mr. Filipovic, the most serious cases of mistreatment in

7 Manjaca took place in the evening hours?

8 A. For the most part, yes. Mostly after the official command had

9 left, but I personally think that the command couldn't have been aware of

10 this because had I been the commander, when I turned up to work in the

11 morning, I would have asked what had happened while I was absent. And

12 even when my brother was killed, the interrogator - I don't know what his

13 name is - he called me to express his condolences. He said, "Well, this

14 happened while we were not at work. You can see we are trying our best to

15 maintain order when we are here, but we are not in a position to control

16 certain individuals." I don't know the interrogator's name. All I know

17 is that he had a pistol, it wasn't an army pistol, it was some sort of an

18 Colt.

19 Q. You also told me that as far as you know, the autopsy report after

20 the tragic death of your brother was also incorrect so to say?

21 A. Well, that's my opinion. It says Filipovic Omer there and it

22 says that he died on such and such a day instead of stating that Filipovic

23 Omer was killed, because to die that means when I die a natural death but

24 if someone takes away my life by force, that's murder. And according to

25 the findings of the doctor, when Omer's body in 1998 was exhumed, he

Page 10109

1 determined that Omer had been killed.

2 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you were pardoned by the President of Republika

3 Srpska on the 11th of September, 1992. That's document DB97 which I have

4 already shown you. I don't think it's necessary to show you again. That's

5 correct, is it?

6 A. That document hasn't been shown to me, but on that day -- well if

7 it's here, I would be grateful if you could show it to me because I have

8 never seen it. But when we set off for England, the investigator who

9 lined us up, literally told us the following: "Thanks to Mr. Karadzic,

10 you are now free men. Mr. Karadzic has signed a pardon for you.

11 Filipovic, you're a little cleverer than the others. Tell them what that

12 means, what a pardon means." I didn't know whether to tell them or not

13 but I said, "Thanks to Mr. Karadzic we ended up in Manjaca." He said, "I

14 didn't ask you about that, but tell them what a pardon means." So I know

15 that for this reason. But I have never seen the document.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Do Your Honours require me to show the document to

17 the witness?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: If you want to.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't have any questions --

20 MS. KORNER: The witness has asked to see it, so I think he's

21 entitled to it. It hasn't actually been shown to him.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's show him the -- I don't recall this

23 document ever been shown to the witness.

24 MS. KORNER: No. It's never been shown. It's actually also the

25 same as a document which had been marked P422, but I don't know which is

Page 10110

1 the easiest for the registrar to give to him.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, P422.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Would it be possible just to make sure that that's

4 the same document? Yes. Yes. Sorry. Put the English version on the

5 ELMO. Thank you.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, is that the document?

7 A. This is the first time I've seen it but these are the people who

8 went to England with me.

9 Q. Tell me, is your name in the document?

10 A. Well, under number 28, it says, "Filipovic, Muhamed." One of the

11 men under number 29 died, I think, Dedic Sefir. When they took us out on

12 the first occasion -- as I said there were no planes -- well, he then

13 died. He died in Manjaca, so he didn't go.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filipovic. Mr. Filipovic, just a few other

15 questions. I don't want to bring you into a situation in which we would

16 have to talk about something that is not very nice for you, with regard to

17 your late brother, but I would just like to clarify something.

18 Mr. Trbojevic asked you yesterday with reference to your statement the

19 late Omer was buried in the Sehidsko cemetery in Kljuc. Isn't it correct

20 that "Sehid" [phoen] means holy warrior?

21 A. No, that's not correct. Sehid, in our religion, is someone who

22 died while he was on the right path. So translate this however you like,

23 but someone who died on the right path, for a just cause. Since we

24 consider Omer Filipovic, my late brother, to be someone who died for a

25 just cause and a just cause is the defence of the state of Bosnia and

Page 10111

1 Herzegovina, the defence of its people. And given that this is our

2 opinion, Omer Filipovic was buried in that cemetery.

3 Q. Thank you very much. And I apologise yet again.

4 A. That's no problem.

5 Q. I would just briefly like to remind you of something in the

6 Territorial Defence headquarters, and the patriotic league in Kljuc, you

7 and your late brother Omer, Asim Ibrahim Egerlic, Mr. Avdic and Djeric

8 Nevzad were members of these headquarters; isn't that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. We heard in your testimony yesterday and in the course of these

11 proceedings that Mr. Djeric, Nevzad Djeric, also known as Kedjo was a

12 reserve JNA officer; isn't that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And he was in fact part of your defence preparations of the

15 Territorial Defence in the municipality of Kljuc; isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes. And he was an officer. And when I said that Omer joined the

17 reserves on one occasion, Kedjo did too in order to see what was

18 happening. And Kedjo also abandoned the reserves when Seselj was

19 inspecting the troops. He was in Titova Korjenica with his unit and when

20 they lined up, Seselj inspected the troops, Kedjo was revolted and left

21 the line because Seselj was inspecting the troops, so he left.

22 Q. You would agree with me, Mr. Filipovic, that Mr. Djeric, with his

23 knowledge as a reserve officer, helped a lot in organising the Territorial

24 Defence in the territory of the municipality of Kljuc?

25 A. Yes, that is certain. He had a -- the rank of a reservist. He

Page 10112

1 was a young man. He was younger than I was. And we could use the

2 knowledge of such people. I don't know what his occupational specialty

3 was exactly. All I know is that he was a lieutenant.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Could the witness be shown document DT34, please?

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Filipovic, I will show you an excerpt from a

6 document published in the magazine called "Ljiljan" on the 23rd of March.

7 There is no mention of the year. As we can see, this was compiled by

8 Nihad Kljucanin. You do know Mr. Nihad Kljucanin, don't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Lower down, you will see at the end of the document, inside

11 brackets, very small font, you will see information given by Muhamed

12 Filipovic. Before the war Filipovic worked in the municipality of Kljuc

13 as a surveyor. He's a direct witness of the events in Kljuc. He -- the

14 information given he followed from the beginning of 1992 until he was

15 imprisoned on the 27th of May, 1992, and so on.

16 Do you remember that you speak with Mr. Nihad Kljucanin?

17 A. No. I wrote this.

18 Q. You wrote this?

19 A. Yes. I wrote it from England and sent it by mail. I think that

20 the seat of Ljiljan at the time was in Ljubljana and I explained that

21 according to my recollection, and what people told me while I was a few

22 months in Manjaca, so whatever -- whoever told me what happened and who

23 did what to whom, so I wrote it as a hierarchy, who were the leaders, they

24 were the most responsible. And I can say that everything that happened to

25 us, perhaps we didn't speak about the -- not speaking about the subject of

Page 10113

1 this trial, I can't say Karadzic because Karadzic was not responsible. He

2 didn't kill anyone. That's why I put Jovo Banjac here. He was the head

3 of the municipality. This is the document that I have written.

4 Q. In the headline it says, "List of war criminals and Chetniks from

5 Kljuc municipality." So that was the subject?

6 A. Yes, that's what I wrote. Somebody called themselves a Chetnik,

7 somebody committed war crimes, somebody withdrew on time, and I know that

8 in 1993, that people said we don't want to be this. So I believe this was

9 written in 1993, as far as I can recall.

10 Q. Mr. Filipovic, could you tell me, under number 51, it said Nevzad,

11 son of Esad, in brackets, Djeric, also known as Kedjo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell me, why did you include this man that you spoke as

14 one of the organisers of the Territorial Defence in the Kljuc municipality

15 member of the Crisis Staff? Why did you include him and declare him to be

16 a war criminal in -- on 23rd of March, 1993, on this list?

17 A. For the reason -- he's late now, he's been killed -- he was

18 killed. He crossed over to the side of Fikret Abdic. And he was in

19 Fikret's troops in that region, and he fought against my people, that is

20 his people, and he knew from documents, and it's well known, that Fikret

21 collaborated with Mladic and this other person from Knin, Martic, so if my

22 brother had been in Kedjo's position, I would have called my brother a

23 traitor. I have put Kedjo under number 51 because he, in my opinion, is a

24 traitor. That is my belief. Because a man can do something on one

25 occasion, he may believe that it's correct, and then he would go off his

Page 10114

1 path. He was killed near Kladusa in 1994 or 1995.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filipovic.

3 Just a couple more questions. Mr. Filipovic, in the magazine

4 called "Euro Bosna," it's a weekly magazine, and the issue I'm talking

5 about is from March, 1994, in there, you wrote an article.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: DT35, please. Thank you.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Is this your article?

8 A. No. This was written by my relative, a member of the academy,

9 Professor Muhamed Filipovic.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filipovic.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: No further questions, Your Honour, for this

12 witness. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner?

14 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

15 Re-examined by Ms. Korner:

16 Q. Mr. Filipovic, I want to go over some of the things were you asked

17 about yesterday and today. First of all, you were referred to the

18 document P90, and I wonder if you could have that back again, please?

19 This was the announcement, I suppose it is, official statement, of the MBO

20 and the SDA, and it referred in there to instructions signed by Radoslav

21 Brdjanin, and you were asked about that. Now, I'd like you to have a

22 look, please, at the document --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zecevic?

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, the contents of this document were not

25 the purpose of my cross-examination. The purpose --

Page 10115

1 MS. KORNER: It wasn't Mr. Zecevic. It was Mr. Trbojevic.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm so sorry. I assumed because I used the document

3 because of the signature. I'm so sorry. I apologise.

4 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


7 Q. Could you now have, please, a look at the document -- and I think

8 we will need to put it on the ELMO, Your Honours, because I don't imagine

9 you have it here?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We have it on the ELMO.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Trbojevic?

12 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] I did not use this document in my

13 cross-examination at all.

14 MS. KORNER: Well, it doesn't matter which of the two used it, one

15 or the other used it and I want to ask something about it.

16 Mr. Trbojevic --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zecevic? Perhaps in the meantime, we can

18 check who used it. I know that it has been used.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sure I used it for the purposes of establishing

20 the signature of the late Omer Filipovic and I never got into the contents

21 of that document. I just stated the name of the document and instructed

22 the witness to take a look at the signature, it at the very end of the

23 document, in order to establish the resemblance of that particular

24 signature and the DT30. And that was all what it was in the

25 cross-examination, nothing else.

Page 10116

1 MS. KORNER: That's absolutely right. In fact, it also covers the

2 same topic which was the very first matter that Mr. Trbojevic asked

3 Mr. Filipovic about. It's on page 5 of the LiveNote of yesterday, and the

4 question went as follows: "When you started giving testimony -- on one

5 occasion you said that you had been informed that Mr. Brdjanin, you said

6 he requested a structure of the government in the municipality. Could you

7 explain this it, please, what does it refer to?" And the witness gave an

8 explanation. And this is -- this document refers it to the same set of

9 instructions.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So go ahead.

11 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.

12 Q. Could you be given and could we have the English version on the

13 ELMO, P22?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I see the Serbo Croat version on the ELMO now.

15 MS. KORNER: It's a different document, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know, but perhaps the witness could --

17 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour he hasn't been given P22 yet.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know that but he's put the other document on

19 it and then took away both of them. So --

20 MS. KORNER: He doesn't need the other document any more.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay.


23 Q. Now, this is a document dated the 29th of October, 1991.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you just move it, yes, correct.

25 MS. KORNER: It needs to be turned over to the other side of the

Page 10117

1 page to see the date.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. M'hm.


4 Q. Can we go then to the front of the page? Sorry, the first side.

5 It's a telegram or telex and it says at the top, "Please deliver this

6 telex to the President of the municipal assembly. Thank you. Order of

7 the SDS Sarajevo, which that was made public at the meeting of the

8 municipal Presidents on the 26th of October, 1991 at 1500 hours in Banja

9 Luka and which was fully accepted at the Presidency of the Autonomous

10 Region of Krajina and the government of the Autonomous Region of Krajina,"

11 and then there is a list of instructions which I'm not going to read

12 through.

13 There is no signature but it has a typed "Coordinator for

14 implementing decisions, Radoslav Brdjanin, vice-president of the Assembly

15 of the Autonomous Region."

16 Now, Mr. Filipovic, have you ever seen this document before?

17 A. No. I haven't seen it, but in my testimony, it's what I said.

18 Everything that we did according to this, because according to our

19 information, we received that Brdjanin -- we knew that Brdjanin had signed

20 something, and I told this Mr. Zecevic. I know that this had taken place

21 in 1991 and this is saying 29th of October, 1991 and Mr. Zecevic said it

22 was December, but I know that it had taken place beforehand. And on the

23 basis of this document, we reacted and we found -- we heard about this

24 through people talking and telling us some things. I see -- I'm seeing

25 this now for the first time, but this is related to some announcements and

Page 10118

1 all other reactions, because here, from 1 to 14, you can see what had to

2 take place in the new state, how it had to be established, and what we

3 didn't agree with.

4 Q. And when you made, when that announcement was made by the MBO and

5 the SDA, was it that document that was being referred to?

6 A. I think that this was, I don't know whether there were any other

7 documents that arrived, but in the course of 1991, the announcements that

8 we made I think this related to this one because this is in fact

9 establishment of authority and our reactions related to the establishment

10 of power, of authority, by the SDS, how it was supposed to be done. And

11 because this was in 1991, I believe that our reaction was related to this

12 document.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour I have to object at this

15 time. The witness has just testified that they have never seen this

16 document.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That he had never seen it.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: That he has never -- well, I assume the MBO and the

19 SDA otherwise he would have seen it. That he hasn't seen that document

20 and that they heard viva voce through somebody about the existence that

21 document so I think that it's improper to be put to the witness that they

22 have done their information from the MBO and SDA based on this document

23 because the witness already said he didn't --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The objection is sustained because basically

25 your question, Ms. Korner, was and when you made -- when that announcement

Page 10119

1 was made by the MBO and the SDA, was it that document that was being

2 referred to? Actually the witness said they were aware that Mr. Brdjanin

3 had signed something but I think the objection is --

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not proposing to take --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I know this is the last day

7 Madam Fauveau and Mr. Zecevic will be here, but I really must object to

8 two counsel from the same team getting much. It's one or the other.

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have an

10 objection which is a linguistic one which is nothing to do with our

11 client. This document according to what is written in the document, or at

12 least in the translation, is not at all addressed to the President of the

13 municipal assemblies of Krajina. It is actually to the President. I

14 believe it's in singular, to one president. We don't know which one.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you turn it once more so that we see the front

16 of the document? Here it says in English, "Please deliver this telex to

17 the President of the municipal assembly. Thank you."

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's singular. We

19 cannot conclude that this was to the President of all the municipal

20 assemblies in Krajina. This is in singular.

21 MS. KORNER: I agree, Your Honour, it's correctly translated and

22 if I read it out as in the plural, then it's my mistake.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead. You're objection has been sustained.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: I know, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: You want to change it into the plural?

Page 10120

1 MR. ZECEVIC: No. I just want to explain to Ms. Korner that I am

2 sitting separated from my counsel.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right. If Madam Fauveau had taken over

4 from you, I would have stopped her, obviously, but that's why I wanted to

5 first hear what she had to say before I could take a decision. Yes,

6 Ms. Korner, please.

7 MS. KORNER: That's all that I want to ask about that document.

8 Thank you very much. You can take that document away.

9 I'd like you to have back, please, the document P1010 that you

10 were being asked about.

11 Q. Now, yesterday at page 58 of the LiveNote, were you asked by

12 Mr. Filipovic to look -- I'm sorry, by Mr. Zecevic, to look at that

13 document in relation to the date, on page -- could we have the English on

14 the ELMO? On page 1. It's the beginning of the report, the Crisis Staff

15 that was set up by the executive board of the Kljuc Serbian Democratic

16 Party on the 23rd of December, 1991. Do you remember that?

17 A. It says here, "Report on the work of the Crisis Staff, War

18 Presidency of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly in the period since 15th of

19 May, 1992," and it says here, "Signed Kljuc".

20 Q. All right, do not worry?

21 A. 27, not December, 29th of July, 1992.

22 Q. Could you go to the paragraph on the first page of the B/C/S that

23 starts, "The Crisis Staff which was set up by the executive board"?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zecevic?

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, as Ms. Korner just said, I

Page 10121

1 used it for the purposes of establishing the date only.

2 MS. KORNER: I know you did, and now I'm going to use it for other

3 purposes.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry?

5 MS. KORNER: I know you did, but once you opened the door to this

6 document, I'm going to go through the rest of this document, I'm afraid,

7 Mr. Zecevic.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, but we have clearly -- we used ten minutes

9 yesterday to explain our position on that document, why we are objecting

10 to --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But the position, Mr. Zecevic, is this: That once

12 this document has been put to the witness, and therefore has been brought

13 before the Chamber as well --

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: -- we are going to take into consideration every bit

16 of information that it contains. So --

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, but --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The Prosecution did not make use of the document.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, it was -- I explained yesterday that

20 we are --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was very simple at the time yesterday,

22 why on earth did the SDS have to, in July of 1992, have to explain that

23 the Crisis Staff was formed on the 26th of December -- 23rd of December of

24 the year before. Yes, but let's hear what the question is, and if it

25 arises out of that document, obviously I have to allow it.

Page 10122

1 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, anyway, we are objecting to that, Your

2 Honour.

3 MS. KORNER: The rule of cross-examination -- of re-examination is

4 that I'm entitled to re-examine on any items that you deal with in

5 cross-examination.

6 Q. Right. First of all, let's have a look at what the actual -- this

7 document actually says about Crisis Staffs in general. The first --

8 because it's been put to you that you're mistaken when you say the Crisis

9 Staff was set up before December. It states in paragraph 1, does it not,

10 that the Crisis Staff that was set up by the executive board of the

11 Kljuc Serbian Democratic Party on the 23rd of December, 1991, was expanded

12 at the meeting held on the 14th of May. And it then describes itself as a

13 crisis -- it was transformed into the Crisis Staff of the Kljuc Municipal

14 Assembly.

15 So Mr. Filipovic, do you understand that to mean - whether this

16 is true or not is another matter - but do you understand that to mean that

17 the first Crisis Staff was an SDS one and it then became a Kljuc Municipal

18 Assembly one?

19 A. Well, yes. First there was SDS Crisis Staff but as I said

20 yesterday and before that, this took place before the 23rd of December.

21 The very first document that was handed to me says that it had already

22 existed from before. But first, they were SDS Crisis Staff and then they

23 took over all the competencies of the SDS Crisis Staff and the municipal

24 Crisis Staff as well, and when the war started in May, since we

25 disappeared from Kljuc, they basically took over this as their own right

Page 10123

1 to be War Presidency or war command, civilian command, or whatever, the

2 way they have taken it over, but the way I see it, they took it over.

3 This was the SDS Crisis Staff which then became War Presidency.

4 Q. All right. And indeed, if you then move to the fourth

5 paragraph on that page, it says, "The Crisis Staff of the Kljuc Municipal

6 Assembly was set up on the 31st of May, 1992, pursuant to a decision of

7 the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia as the War Presidency of

8 the municipal assembly, and as such has carried out to this day, duties

9 which were within the competence of the assembly."

10 Now, it was also suggested to you at one point today that there

11 was a coordinated attack between the Muslim TOs of Prijedor, Sanski Most

12 and Kljuc, to cut off the ARK. Do you remember that suggestion? Just

13 say yes or no.

14 A. Yes. Mr. Zecevic mentioned this. He wanted to prove that we had

15 the intention to cut off the autonomous region, Bosnian Krajina, into two.

16 Q. And --

17 A. Or to cut up or divide it into two. And I said that we, as people

18 of Kljuc, that we worked on our own initiative.

19 Q. Well, the first question I want to ask you about is that: You

20 have already said there was no coordinated attack and given your reasons.

21 But as far as you were aware, did you have sufficient men or arms to start

22 an attack against the JNA?

23 A. No, we didn't. That's why I wanted Mr. Zecevic to read how many

24 shells we had. With four shells, you can't possibly go into an attack.

25 Four shells, this is just to fire them, to have a kind of show that there

Page 10124

1 is something. But they had everything behind them. They had the support

2 of the JNA, they had a logistics. I said yesterday how come that the Serb

3 side had aircraft, helicopters? I would have all understood all these

4 weapons had it not been for the helicopters; one side can have

5 everything and the other two can't have anything.

6 Q. Now, I want to -- you to have a look, please, with us at how the

7 Serbs themselves describe what happened in this document. Page 3 in the

8 English translation, at the second paragraph, begins, "The Crisis Staff

9 (War Presidency) of the assembly based its work and activities on team

10 work. During the period covered by the previous report, the Crisis Staff

11 meetings were held at least twice a week and at the beginning on a daily

12 basis. During the armed conflict, representatives (commanders) of the

13 Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina regularly attended

14 the Crisis Staff and War Presidency meetings. They commanded and carried

15 out the war activities for the defence of the territory and citizens of

16 the Kljuc Municipal Assembly against Muslim extremists. They cooperated

17 and coordinated everything very well with the Crisis Staff. All important

18 and significant issues in the military and police domain were not resolved

19 outside the Crisis Staff."

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Zecevic?

21 MR. ZECEVIC: I have to object again, Your Honours, at this time

22 because this was not a part of my cross-examination, neither of this.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: But Mr. Zecevic, if -- the cross-examination arises

24 out of the -- sorry, the re-examination arises out of the fact that there

25 has been a cross-examination.

Page 10125


2 JUDGE AGIUS: And that some issues were put to the witness.


4 JUDGE AGIUS: What Ms. Korner is trying to do now, she's picked up

5 one issue, namely your suggestion to the witness that there was

6 coordinated efforts by the Muslims in three municipalities --

7 MS. KORNER: That there was an attack, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That there was an attack, a coordinated attack.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: The witness answered.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And the witness also answered very specifically,

11 that while they had practically nothing to attack with, presumably, as he

12 put it, because there were only four shells by way of ammunition, the

13 other side, the Serbian side, was fully equipped and operational. And the

14 next question that she has just put arises out of that. That is why I

15 stopped -- I did not allow your objection before, and that is why I cannot

16 allow it now. I mean, it's a sequitur, it's a sequence of questions,

17 arising out of a point that you tried to make with the witness.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. Thank you.


20 Q. Can we just finish this paragraph? "All important and significant

21 issues in the military and police domain were not resolved outside the

22 Crisis Staff of the municipal assembly. This period could be described as

23 a period of very successful cooperation between the Crisis Staff and

24 military bodies in defeating the armed resistance of Muslim extremists.

25 The Crisis Staff of the municipal assembly has particularly praised and

Page 10126

1 acknowledged the 30th Division of the 1st Corps for the successful action

2 of crushing the resistance of Muslim extremists. After the successful

3 crushing of the resistance of Muslim extremists by the members of the Army

4 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and members of the

5 regular and reserve police forces, as well as the entire Serbian

6 population," I'm going to leave out the rest of the paragraph because it

7 deals with civilians. And at the end of the page, "Despite the results

8 that the army and police achieved in crushing the resistance of Muslim

9 existence (sic) in the territory of the war activities," et cetera -- I'm

10 going to read the next bit to deal with another matter that was put to

11 you.

12 Do you see any reference in that document, Mr. Filipovic, to an

13 attack by the Muslims or any kind of coordinated action between the TOs of

14 Prijedor, Sanski Most and Kljuc?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you understand --


17 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the question now?

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


21 Q. I'm sorry, Your Honour has thrown me completely.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: I think it --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You asked the witness, "Do you see any reference in

25 that document, Mr. Filipovic, to an attack by the Muslims or any kind of

Page 10127

1 coordinated action between the TOs of Prijedor, Sanski Most and Kljuc?"

2 And then I interrupted you. I'm very sorry.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't, because there wasn't

4 any such thing.


6 Q. Now, then you -- it was -- you were asked about a matter that I

7 had raised in examination-in-chief, namely the crimes that were

8 committed --

9 MS. KORNER: And I did find the reference, Your Honour, I may say,

10 and it was, in my view, taken out of context, but nonetheless ...

11 Q. And you were asked about that, and I want to look at what they

12 wrote, the Serbs themselves, about these incidents. If we continue with

13 that paragraph, "In the territory where there were war activities, and

14 also on other territories later on, certain negative tendencies appeared

15 which are not characteristic of the dignified Serbian people. To be more

16 precise, paramilitary groups and individuals appeared and carried out

17 robberies, torchings and attacks mostly in villages with the Muslim

18 population, once the combat on mopping-up operations in the area were

19 over. They also broke into houses and moved into abandoned apartments."

20 This is a global description, if-- I suppose one could put it. In

21 your view, is this an accurate or an inaccurate description of what

22 happened?

23 A. Yes, it is. For example, I was captured and sent to Manjaca. My

24 wife was forced to Travnik. My house remained there and Serbs moved into

25 it. Everything that I had, all the property that my father had obtained,

Page 10128

1 that became their property. Prior to that, before they gave my wife

2 permission to leave Kljuc, she was asked to sign a declaration, according

3 to which she was giving her property to the Republic of Serbia, to

4 Republika Srpska. My wife refused to do so. She didn't want to sign

5 that. And the same thing happened to all the Muslims and Croats who left,

6 the same thing that happened to me. So when we left, we did not know what

7 was going to happen to our things and to our property. This was plunder.

8 They would reward their fighters who had been to the front and who had

9 excelled themselves. I don't have any proof but --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] ... answered the question

11 enough already. We don't want any repetition.


13 Q. Finally on this document, because you've been asked a number of

14 times about instructions you received from Sarajevo, in the page 4, same

15 page, fourth paragraph, "The Crisis Staff authorised the executive council

16 of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly to consider certain issues and reach

17 decisions which are in its competence." I'll leave out the rest. And

18 then this: "At every meeting the Crisis Staff [War Presidency of the

19 Municipal Assembly] considered the conclusions of the Banja Luka Regional

20 Crisis Staff which were binding as regards all issues connected with life

21 and work in the municipality. Furthermore, the Crisis Staff [War

22 Presidency] of the municipal assembly resolved certain personnel issues in

23 the judicial system, the public prosecutor's office," et cetera, et

24 cetera." And then I don't think we need trouble with the rest of this

25 document. Thank you.

Page 10129

1 Now, you can take that document away. Thank you.

2 Now, finally on this question of the crimes that were you asked

3 about.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may object now, I believe you

5 will sustain my objection now.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't heard the question.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: No, I haven't heard the question. It was read as

8 a -- my question was instructions from Sarajevo and now we are talking

9 about the instructions of the Crisis Staff from ARK.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but there was no question. Ms. Korner went on

11 reading bits and pieces of the paragraph but with no question --

12 MR. ZECEVIC: If Your Honours find that appropriate in the

13 re-examination --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In fact, I was going to ask Ms. Korner when was she

15 going to pose the question.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I stood up earlier than I should have.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I saw her sit down because you stood up.

18 What's your question?

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I was merely drawing the conclusion that

20 the question -- I mean, the questions were put to him about the MBO taking

21 instructions from Sarajevo.


23 MS. KORNER: I could have asked a question I suppose, does this

24 show that the Kljuc Crisis Staff was taking instructions from the regional

25 Crisis Staff? Answer yes. I decided that wasn't worth it.

Page 10130

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So next question.

2 Yes, Mr. Trbojevic?

3 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] There should be another question

4 then. How is it that the witness knows this?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: He knows what?

6 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] We are talking about the paragraph

7 which Mrs. Korner read out.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: He doesn't say that he knows anything about it.

9 [Microphone not activated] Ms. Korner read from a document which allegedly

10 is an SDS document. That's it. I mean no question put and that's the end

11 of the story. This Trial Chamber is not going to take any cognizance at

12 all of this last part of the proceedings in which Ms. Korner read from

13 that document with no ultimate -- because you read out -- first you faced

14 the witness with regard to the questions that were put to you with

15 regard --

16 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] She read it out very well.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but that's it. The document is there. It

18 says what it says, but there is was no question on that relevant part of

19 the document. So -- I mean we don't need Ms. Korner or anyone else to

20 read to us from any particular document which is before us in any case.

21 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's fine. I know that this is some

23 ongoing saga about whether I can read documents or not but Your Honour

24 said you're not going to take cognizance of it.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: This last -- no, the fact that you continued reading

Page 10131

1 from that document. We didn't say that we are not going to take --

2 MS. KORNER: It into account.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Into account the document itself?

4 MS. KORNER: Fine.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: We are ignoring the fact that you stood up to

6 re-examine the witness on what he had stated about receiving instructions

7 from Sarajevo. And then was not really followed up by a question.

8 That's --

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, for once I ignored --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. You have every right to do so.

11 MS. KORNER: I'd like though to deal still with the question of

12 the crimes that were committed in the area of Kljuc. Could you be shown,

13 please, P1045? And 1046 thereafter? They are roughly the same sorts of

14 document. Could we have the English on the ELMO, please?

15 Q. This is a document dated the 28th of September, 1992, headed the

16 Public Security Station in Kljuc and it's a report concerning the crimes

17 committed in the municipality area from the start of the armed uprising on

18 the 27th of May. And it begins by stating that, "On the 27th of May,

19 1992, Muslim extremists incited an armed uprising during which three

20 members of the Serbian military and police were killed and 30 were

21 wounded. An enormous increase in crime followed during the time of combat

22 operations." And then they list the crimes. And they -- they say, "These

23 are indicators that were officially reported and do not show the actual

24 state of affairs since a large number of crimes were not reported due to

25 fear."

Page 10132

1 And then it goes on to deal with break-ins and then "The" start of

2 the war was characterised by break-ins into businesses and illegal

3 entrances by the army into Muslim apartments.

4 "There was a process of provoking fear in exercising pressure on

5 Muslim inhabitants to move out by burning their houses, throwing explosive

6 devices, firing from Zoljas and infantry weapons at apartment buildings."

7 Before your arrest, Mr. Filipovic, had that started?

8 A. Yes, it had. In my testimony, I said that before I was arrested,

9 there were two murders; one in Kljuc and the other in Sanica. And what is

10 further stated in this report, these are events that took place in Kljuc

11 in a period when we Muslims and Croats were practically absent from

12 Kljuc. And the few of us who had remained, the Serbs allowed themselves

13 to turn up in front of their houses and if they decided to do so, they

14 would kill people on the spot. They could kill families. They were known

15 to rape people and what it says in this it police report is correct. What

16 the chief, Vinko Kondic, has stated is correct.

17 Q. They go on to say it was known to happen that it an entire hamlet

18 of 20 houses Sljivari and Crnalici would be set on fire in a single night.

19 Did you hear about those incidents?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Before or after his arrest?

21 MS. KORNER: First of all, did you know about -- did it happen

22 before your arrest?

23 A. As far as I know, this happened after the arrest, but I've heard

24 about this too. When they say that things were set on fire, people were

25 put into stable -- into a stable and they set fire to it in the village of

Page 10133

1 Crnalici.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Ms. Korner, in fairness's sake, I would ask

3 you to go back a little and break down your question pointing --

4 pinpointing it in time to the period prior to his or until his arrest.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: And subdividing it into the various activities,

7 murders, fires, explosions, thefts and whatever and then the --

8 MS. KORNER: Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: -- provocation of fear, because I think it's as far

10 as murders are concerned, he did tell us that there were two at least that

11 he could identify before his arrest. But the rest is a little bit hazy

12 and I'm not quite clear in my mind whether everything happened before or

13 after or both before and after so we better --

14 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, I'll certainly do that.

15 Q. Can we just break it this down into Filipovic into what's

16 mentioned in that first paragraph? Before your arrest, was there

17 already -- were break ins into businesses and illegal entrances by the

18 army into -- well, let's deal -- I'm sorry. Again it's too many

19 questions. Businesses, had there already been illegal entry into

20 businesses before your arrest?

21 A. Yes. There had. Into catering establishments and into private

22 houses too. As proof I could mention my house, my brother's house.

23 Q. All right. Can we then just move to the next thing? That they --

24 the burning of houses and the throwing of explosive devices, et cetera,

25 did that happen before your arrest or did you hear about it subsequently?

Page 10134

1 A. Yes. Yesterday we spoke about Pudin Han, but houses weren't

2 burning but hay and stables, that was before I was arrested. And

3 explosive devices, that is to say hand grenades were thrown, that is when

4 the Serbian army was returning from Kupres, because they would spend ten

5 or 20 days at the front, they would then return and as they were

6 returning, they celebrated because they were alive and they would throw

7 explosive devices. They would drink, they would celebrate and throw

8 explosive devices.

9 Q. All right. Can we move to the next paragraph on that -- the last

10 paragraph on that page, the most serious of the crimes, murders, began to

11 be committed immediately after war operations. Most often this involved

12 taking persons out of their family homes and killing them in front of the

13 threshold. We stop there. Had anything like that happened before your

14 arrest? Or did that -- was that something you learned about later?

15 A. I heard about these things later.

16 Q. And then the murder of -- four monstrous crimes, such as the

17 murder of four Muslims, two killed with a sledge hammer, one had his

18 throat slit. Again was that something you heard about subsequently?

19 A. Subsequently.

20 Q. A mass murder of 12 persons from Donja --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you need to because he said there were

22 only two murders occurred before his arrest that he could recall, so all

23 the others must be subsequent to his arrest.

24 MS. KORNER: All right.

25 Q. Can we then go over the page. It's over our page. Can we turn

Page 10135

1 that over on the ELMO? Recently, houses abandoned by Muslims" -- it must

2 be those of Muslim nationality -- "who moved out are being looted on a

3 massive scale." And this report is September. You've told us that your

4 house was looted. When did your wife actually leave?

5 A. I didn't say that my house had been set on fire.

6 Q. No, looted. I'm sorry, looted. I thought you told us your house

7 had been looted?

8 A. I was captured on the 28th of May, and on the 1st of October, my

9 wife left Kljuc with our child.

10 Q. All right.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: When was your house ransacked, looted?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My house was ransacked when I was

13 arrested. Only academic literature was taken away. But my brother's

14 house was looted. Everything was taken, the car, his possessions. But

15 only technical literature had been taken away from my house because my

16 wife was present when they were carrying out the search, and in the course

17 of the search, there was a, let's say, a decent policeman who did his duty

18 and made sure that they behaved correctly. But they only took away the

19 books - I'm a geodesics expert - and they have plans in this field, and

20 the reason for which they took these books away is that I spied, but this

21 was a professional book from -- written by Professor Ilija Zivkovic. It

22 was something I used to study, but this was used as evidence to show that

23 I had acted as a spy in Belgrade.


25 Q. Finally on this document, this: "Through operative work, we have

Page 10136

1 gathered information that the perpetrators are persons in uniform, that is

2 to say members of the military who are not under the jurisdiction of the

3 public security station. However, due to the war conditions, the military

4 security organs have only seldom discovered the perpetrators and

5 sanctioned such deeds by sending them to the front line. Those crimes --

6 these crimes are being reported to a station that simply does not know how

7 to deal with them."

8 Now, I am going to ask a question on this, but before I do that,

9 can we just look at the second report which is very similar, dated the

10 same day, which is Exhibit P1046? And if we look at the English

11 version --

12 MS. KORNER: Yes, put on the ELMO, 1046. No, 1046. It's a

13 different document. Can we just have the front page, the first page of

14 1046 put on the ELMO, the English? This one. Oh, God. Sorry, I didn't

15 understand that. Okay. All right. Perhaps I can just deal with it

16 because there is only one line.

17 Q. This slightly expands on the military. "Information collected

18 through intelligence work reveals that the perpetrators were in uniform.

19 That is, they were military persons outside the authority of the SJB.

20 However, because of wartime conditions, military security organs seldom

21 disclosed the identity of perpetrators and punish such acts by sending

22 them to the front line."

23 Now, as far as you were aware -- first of all, before your arrest,

24 were the people who were committing those acts in military uniform or

25 civilians? That you've described to us, that you were aware of.

Page 10137

1 A. They were wearing military uniforms. But there were comical

2 situations too. For example, they would go to the front in Croatia or

3 Kupres, loot something there, and a soldier who would be in a military

4 uniform, but he would have football boots on, and then we would laugh at

5 him and say, "Look, he went and looted houses and doesn't know what

6 football boots are." He has a remote control for a television, and he

7 would say, "Look, I've brought a TV from the front," but it was a remote

8 control. It wasn't a television. So at the time, we laughed at this, and

9 we said, "Look at these soldiers. They walk down the roads in football

10 boots. Their feet will be full of blisters once they get to Kljuc."

11 Q. The second question is this: Are you aware of anybody who

12 reported the crimes that were described in this document to the SJB at

13 Kljuc?

14 A. Well --

15 Q. [Microphone not activated] I'm talking about this period, end of

16 May onwards, not before that.

17 A. From the end of May onwards, I know nothing about that, but

18 according to what people said, I know that people weren't allowed to

19 report this because if they did, and said that, "Person X came and

20 threatened me," then the following day something would happen. So people

21 were afraid, and because of this, they did not report certain events.

22 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Filipovic. That's all

23 that I ask.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

25 So Mr. Filipovic, that brings us to an end. This is the end of

Page 10138

1 your testimony here in this Tribunal -- in this case, at least. I wish to

2 thank you on behalf of the Tribunal. Thank you for having accepted to

3 come over here and give evidence. Again, it has not been easy for you,

4 both because of the circumstances and also because you had to come here,

5 go back and then come back again, knowing that your physical conditions

6 were not -- was not that good. But I can assure you that you will now be

7 given all the attention you require before you return to your country.

8 You may leave the courtroom. You will be escorted out by the usher.

9 Thank you.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I just ask you

11 something?


13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission? Would it be

14 possible to have a photocopy of that document in which I was released?

15 Because I am not someone who is afraid and I walk around Banja Luka.

16 Someone might arrest me, and then I'd be able to show this person a

17 document, to prove that -- I can prove that I'm -- in legal terms, I'm

18 released, but some fool could stop me intercept me in Banja Luka and

19 I'd have to go through 1992 once again.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we will make sure Mr. Filipovic gets a

21 copy.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do. You will have a copy of that document

23 before you leave this building today.

24 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour there is one last thing. None of

25 us -- at least we weren't given copies yesterday of the documents that he

Page 10139

1 brought with him, and I didn't know whether they have been returned to

2 him.

3 THE REGISTRAR: I left a copy with Susan.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We were given copies, all of us.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I left a copy with Susan.

6 MS. KORNER: All I want to know is whether they have been returned

7 to Mr. Filipovic, the originals.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received it but I'm asking for

9 what Mr. Zecevic showed me, the document in which I was pardoned.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. I know. You will have a copy of

11 that document before you leave this building, as I told you. Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have a number of administrative

14 matters to raise.


16 MS. KORNER: It may be Your Honour wants to take the break now.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Two options. How long do you anticipate?

18 MS. KORNER: We've really got to do, as it were, some minor --

19 major -- some sort of organising.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: If you think it's better to have a break and then we

21 come back.

22 MS. KORNER: I think we need the break.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes exactly. If it was a matter of just a couple

24 of minutes, I would have asked the interpreters to -- and we would have

25 stayed a couple of minutes.

Page 10140

1 MS. KORNER: I think it may take a little longer.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's more, we will have a break. We will resume

3 at 12.00 -- sorry, at 1.00. Thank you.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

6 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour -- oh.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honour,

9 during the break, we managed to get a request in relation to the

10 translation in question. Since the Defence doesn't have the right to

11 contact the CLSS so we asked the Registrar's office, and what was marked

12 on this request was that it was urgent, and then later on, somebody added,

13 end of September. I just wanted to clarify this and present the facts as

14 they are.

15 Another matter that I wanted to address is in relation to the use

16 of the documents contested by the Defence. All the document that is we

17 contested, we still contest them. The fact is, however, that these

18 documents were admitted into the file on the 26th of August so the Defence

19 cannot pretend that they do not exist. We have to use them and to use

20 them for our benefit since we do not know which probative value the

21 Chamber will give them. Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's not start this argument, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: No, I'm not.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I really want to deal some matters of

Page 10141

1 administrative concerning witnesses and the like but it's the consequences

2 of the severance which is effective as of today. The first is this: Your

3 Honours we can, if Your Honours want, produce a new indictment specifying

4 only Brdjanin alone but effectively, other than removing the biographical

5 details of Talic, the indictment will remain the same because the

6 activities ascribed to Talic form part of the joint criminal enterprise

7 so -- but if Your Honours feel you wish to have a new indictment produced,

8 we can do that during the break. That's the first question.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We reserve our position on that. I don't think on

10 two feet that that should be necessary. It will of course be necessary, I

11 suppose, in the case of General Talic at this point but we will think

12 about it. It has crossed my mind of course and I have been thinking about

13 it but --

14 MS. KORNER: It's just more paper.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. It doesn't really make a difference at

16 all.

17 MS. KORNER: Although, it's pointed out to me by Ms. Sutherland

18 who is our expert on documentation that when there has been a severance,

19 the number changes slightly and I think -- and I see the Registrar nodding

20 about that, so it may well be simply for those purposes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Why should it change for Mr. Brdjanin's case and not

22 for Mr. Talic's? This is ongoing and the other one will or will not

23 resume depending on what the future --

24 MS. KORNER: Well, I know but -- yes. I think the thing is,

25 though, that you've ordered there to be separate indictments, and

Page 10142

1 therefore, each will have -- it would have the same number, but I think it

2 goes dash 1 or something like that, dash 2. Is that right?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I have no qualms with that. I mean if it's for

4 administrative purposes, that's what you would like to have, go ahead.

5 It's no problem with us.

6 MS. KORNER: In that case, can I just ask: Will the indictment

7 against Brdjanin be whatever the number is dash 1?

8 THE REGISTRAR: I think I should discuss this with my boss as

9 well.

10 MS. KORNER: Okay.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Frankly, my preference would be to retain the

12 indictment against Mr. Brdjanin as it is. And then if anything changed

13 that -- for General Talic, the reference number, but as far as this case

14 is concerned, even for -- I don't know. I mean I don't know what the

15 practice of the Registry is but to me it makes more sense once this is the

16 ongoing trial, to retain the reference number or registration number and

17 change the other one.

18 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think maybe we had better

19 discuss -- I'll get somebody from the team it to discuss this with the

20 registry and we will see what the situation is.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not of that much importance to us. For the

22 records, even later on, if we are going to research something and you

23 research it by case number, or whatever, I mean, why should Mr. Brdjanin's

24 case have two numbers?

25 MS. KORNER: I think, Your Honour, well this is some sort of

Page 10143

1 admin matter that I think somebody will have to sort out, not us, if you

2 see what we mean and we will do whatever is required on producing a new

3 indictment.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, that leads to the second matter.

6 Clearly all motions, therefore, when filed will be filed only in the case

7 of Brdjanin. I think that must follow.

8 Thirdly, we propose to stop at this stage any further disclosure

9 to the Talic Defence. Really for two reasons. The first is it's

10 enormously expensive and a huge waste of paper.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But let's -- one moment. Because as far as the

12 composition of this Trial Chamber is concerned, now I can only pronounce

13 myself on behalf of the other two judges only in so far as Brdjanin's

14 case.

15 MS. KORNER: No, I don't think so. I think Your Honour is still

16 seized of the Talic matter.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I will have to discuss that with the President.

18 MS. KORNER: No, no. It would seem to me exceedingly odd if Your

19 Honours weren't.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: There is more than that involved. There is also the

21 ad litem Judges involved and there is a practice that we adopt here as to

22 the assignment of cases to ad litem Judges and I don't think the ad litem

23 Judges, the two ad litem Judges I have with me in this case can also be

24 assigned to another case while this one is still going on.

25 MS. KORNER: I don't think I'm asking for a decision. I'm just

Page 10144

1 giving you the information so it's clear to all parties. At the moment we

2 are saying we are taking that decision. We are going to stop disclosure

3 to the Talic team for two reasons. One is that it's exceedingly expensive

4 and I don't know which of the team will be where and how we are supposed

5 to reach any of them. Secondly, if there is going to be a trial at any

6 stage of Talic on these matters, we will then, whatever has been disclosed

7 will be disclosed in advance of that with sufficient time so I'm merely

8 for these purposes giving that information to the Court.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Whatever you're going to say, Madam Fauveau, is with

10 this reservation, you will not get a yes or a no or any comment from us

11 for the simple reason that until I am given the green light from the

12 President that I am still seized, together with Judge Janu and Judge Taya

13 of the case against Talic, I don't think I can make any pronouncement or

14 comment on what Ms. Korner has just stated. I will allow it for the

15 record but that's about it.

16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at this

17 moment, we are not concerned by the disclosure. However, we are concerned

18 by the indictments that will follow the current indictment. In the

19 current indictment, Mr. Brdjanin and General Talic were charged with --

20 were charged together and this was a joint trial. We for the reasons that

21 are outside of our control, this trial has to be severed so there will be

22 two trials. What we want to avoid is that in the trial against

23 Mr. Brdjanin, that General Talic's name appears and any element of proof

24 against General Talic are introduced into the trial against Mr. Brdjanin.

25 We are the counsel of General Talic and we have a duty and obligation and

Page 10145

1 we have to defend General Talic in all trials in this -- before this

2 Tribunal so it is clear that General Talic doesn't -- obviously he's not

3 going to be found guilty, if his name isn't quoted, but we do not wish him

4 to be declared guilty because he's not here and he's not going to be able

5 to defend himself. General Talic has, like any other person, fundamental

6 right to be considered presumed innocent until found guilty. He also has

7 the right to defend himself. So we are opposed to the only biographical

8 data on General Talic being here. We believe that there should be two

9 separate indictments and General Talic should not be tried in this trial

10 against Mr. Brdjanin, just like Mr. Brdjanin would not and

11 should not be tried in a trial against General Talic.

12 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid there is a fundamental misunderstanding

13 there of the legal position. In exactly the same way as Mr. Zupljanin,

14 who has not yet deigned to put in an appearance at the Hague, is being

15 talked about in the trial, so will General Talic, so will other people not

16 actually accused. I'm afraid that is the nature of a joint criminal

17 enterprise. This is not a stand-alone matter against Mr. Brdjanin. Our

18 allegation is that he, General Talic, Mr. Zupljanin and various others

19 were engaged in this conduct, so I'm afraid that's not possible.

20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I believe

21 that the position of Mr. Zupljanin is not the same as that of General

22 Talic. Mr. Zupljanin isn't here. He knows very well that he has been

23 indicted, and he's not here. General Talic was here and he has Defence

24 counsel defending him, and General Talic is not here today not because he

25 does not want to be here but because he cannot be here. It is his

Page 10146

1 fundamental right to be here but he cannot be here, and we cannot change

2 anything about that.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, this is a purely legal matter which will be

4 dealt with as we go along, but I invite you both to keep the various

5 concepts involved distinct, one from the other, and -- it's something that

6 I am not going to comment on now because --

7 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated].

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone?

9 MS. KORNER: If I understand the suggestion being made by

10 Madam Fauveau, it's that when we produce a new indictment, all references

11 to General Talic should be removed. I think that's what she is asking.

12 Is that correct?

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Obviously, we want all

14 references to General Talic to be taken out of the indictment against

15 Mr. Brdjanin, but again we do not wish to -- for the Prosecutor to show

16 any evidence against General Talic during this trial against Mr. Brdjanin.

17 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... a ruling because

18 the answer from the Prosecution for legal reasons which I needn't go into

19 is no to both, that the name and all the description of the acts of

20 General Talic will remain and that we will be leading evidence to show,

21 though obviously in less detail, that's what the week is being used for,

22 to show the criminal -- what we allege to be criminal activities --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: As far as I'm concerned, Ms. Korner and

24 Madam Fauveau, the situation -- I think everything must be put in its

25 proper perspective. As far as I am concerned, there are several issues

Page 10147

1 involved. Number 1, General Talic is no longer a co-accused in this

2 trial. Before me, I have -- before us, we have one trial now involving

3 one accused only, who happens to be accused also of a joint enterprise.

4 Now, having the other parties involved allegedly -- allegedly involved in

5 the joint enterprise as co-accused in the case is relevant. They don't

6 necessarily have to be co-accused in the case or they don't necessarily

7 have to be present in the case to integrate the charge of the -- the

8 charge of joint enterprise. Once there is a joint enterprise, just as in

9 all other cases of complicity, for example, where the accomplices are

10 known or unknown,

11 but if known, are -- have not been found and are not being charged, the

12 situation is very much the same.

13 I don't think you have any further voice in this trial,

14 Madam Fauveau, as Defence counsel for General Talic. You can please in

15 General Talic's case, not in Mr. Brdjanin's case. What I can assure you

16 is that this trial will not come to a conclusion of guilt or otherwise of

17 General Talic because that is no longer an issue. But I don't think you

18 can tie the Prosecution's hands or the Court's hands, if the charge was

19 and is to remain one of a joint enterprise, to have even the name of

20 General Talic and -- removed from the indictment, and if that is not going

21 to be removed from the indictment, and is part of the indictment, then how

22 can you pretend or expect us to stop the Prosecution from bringing forward

23 evidence to show who the other participants in this possible alleged joint

24 enterprise were? He's not the only person who was mentioned. If you look

25 at the indictment, there are several other persons. Forget Zupljanin

Page 10148

1 because Zupljanin perhaps is in a different position than the other

2 persons that are mentioned as having participated in this joint

3 enterprise. But there are other persons. I don't need to mention any one

4 of them. Do you mean to say that the moment a witness takes the stand and

5 mentions Mr. Karadzic or Biljana Plavsic, I say, "No, you have no right to

6 mention those two persons or what they may have been involved in"? Of

7 course not.

8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not

9 about mentioning General Talic's name or the name of Mr. Karadzic or

10 anyone else. Of course I'm talking about the introducing of evidence and

11 looking for possible responsibility of General Talic in the trial against

12 Brdjanin. Obviously, I have nothing to say in the trial against

13 Mr. Brdjanin. I have always, and as long as I am a legal representative

14 of General Talic, I will always defend his interests. What I was saying

15 about references to General Talic in a trial against Brdjanin, I can

16 also turn it around and say, what about references to Mr. Brdjanin in a

17 trial against General Talic? So I'm saying exactly the same things are

18 valid for a trial where Mr. Brdjanin may be mentioned in a trial

19 against General Talic.

20 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... It's now the

21 trial of Brdjanin and therefore, any applications made by --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- position we need to take.

23 MS. KORNER: No. We don't need to take this any further.

24 Your Honour, then, so as then regards disclosure, I understand

25 from the Defence to say --

Page 10149

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please don't discuss that because I told you, I

2 don't know what your position with regard to the trial of General Talic

3 is.

4 MS. KORNER: I am merely saying, Your Honour -- I've already said

5 I don't think it's a matter for Your Honour, unless Your Honour, once

6 seized of another case, makes a ruling. I'm just stating the position.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the next thing is witnesses. No, the

9 witness schedule. I think Your Honour has already been given it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We were given a sheet of paper this morning with

11 four names.

12 MS. KORNER: That's right. It's not -- this is only to cover --

13 we had to do some reorganisations because of all the to-ing and fro-ing

14 and so that's the list and we provided that to the team for Mr. Brdjanin.

15 The -- I want to say something else and I've forgotten what it is

16 now.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You mean to cover these four in one week?

18 MS. KORNER: Well, I hope. Your Honour, I'm just checking that.

19 The first three are all -- yes, we anticipate fairly quickly. The last,

20 as you can see, 7.106, he's the one who has been mentioned and he's likely

21 to take a little longer. Can I just have confirmation that the Court

22 maintenance has been moved so we've got the whole week next -- the week of

23 the 6th? I think that's the message I got.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I will -- I will confirm that to you.

25 MS. KORNER: It's only a four-day week? I thought it had been

Page 10150

1 moved you gave me a document that showed it had been moved to a later

2 week.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: On the 7th? No, it's -- the week of the 7th we are

4 starting, we are resuming on the 7th of October in the afternoon and we

5 are sitting right through Thursday but Friday in the sheet that I have,

6 that is the latest marked 24th September, it still shows court maintenance

7 and this we are talking about Courtroom I.

8 MS. KORNER: I was give a sheet yesterday which showed that the

9 Court maintenance for the 7th had been moved to a later date.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Initially the courtroom maintenance was scheduled

11 on the 1st of November and then we moved to the October, but we still --

12 MS. KORNER: Backwards. In other words, it went back.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Explain to you why.

14 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I will request -- otherwise we

15 will go over almost certainly, and always mindful of the need to save

16 money, I'd request that we try and find a courtroom on the Friday.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: If we can find a courtroom I'm prepared to work on

18 the 11th, no problem.

19 MS. KORNER: Good, right.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, if you could find us a courtroom on

21 that day? But Milosevic has restarted, Martinovic is sitting all day.

22 MS. KORNER: Stakic won't be sitting.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Martinovic is sitting all day, perhaps if we could

24 reach an agreement with Martinovic to sit the -- instead of the all day,

25 either the morning or the afternoon session, then we can alternate with

Page 10151

1 them. That is possible. But --

2 MS. KORNER: All right. Well, Your Honour, Ill leave that in Your

3 Honour's hands. The only problem that has arisen and which is unresolved

4 yet, because we haven't had an answer, is that that next week is the week

5 of the Bosnian elections and the elections are actually on the Saturday.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Next week, this coming week?


8 JUDGE AGIUS: The week after?

9 MS. KORNER: Sorry, the week of the 30th.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't know that.

11 MS. KORNER: At the end of the week is the Bosnian elections. And

12 we are having a problem because I think voting is on Saturday. Therefore

13 the first witness can only be brought up here on a Sunday and we haven't

14 had a response yet from the VWS as to whether --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: How long does the voting process take?

16 MS. KORNER: I have no idea, but I think it's a Saturday.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Saturday, that means 5th October?

18 MS. KORNER: Yes, which means that no witness wants to come up on

19 the Friday, which is what normally happens. So, Your Honour, I'm just

20 giving warning. I hope that we'll still be -- manage to get one of the

21 first three witnesses on to a plane on Sunday to be available to testify

22 on Monday afternoon. But if not, we may simply have to deal with the

23 Monday, with the Status Conference that Mr. Ackerman requested.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me know in that case because I've just turned

25 down an invitation to go to Leiden University on that day at 5.30 because

Page 10152

1 we are sitting for a very important meeting there.

2 MS. KORNER: As I understand, Your Honour, will be here tomorrow

3 and next week so we will let Your Honour know.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I'll be here practically all the time so please keep

5 me informed if we are sitting.

6 MS. KORNER: We certainly will, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: In any case, please, should no witness be

8 forthcoming, for Monday, the 7th, we still need to have the Status

9 Conference that we spoke about so the 7th in any case, will be reserved

10 for that.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. As I understood, Your Honour, we

12 perhaps will break a little earlier to have the Status Conference, the

13 witness. Your Honour, finally I'm really clearing the decks, as it were,

14 that is, Mr. Ackerman requested that we look or that Your Honours look at

15 the interview that was conducted with Mr. Halilovic and to see whether

16 there was anything that ought to be disclosed as Rule 68. We have had

17 that interview gone through. The case relates to events in 1993 in

18 Mostar. There is only one reference. It was the MBO. We only found one

19 reference to anything to do with arming and that was in general terms. We

20 conclude from that that there is nothing that needs to be disclosed to the

21 Defence on this aspect and we are quite happy to give Your Honours the

22 breakdown, the summary of the even only remotely relevant parts that

23 relate to 1992 if that's requested. And I'm saying that, I know

24 Mr. Ackerman is not here but his co-counsel is and that's the situation.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Unless you act upon your own responsibility,

Page 10153

1 Ms. Korner, obviously --

2 MS. KORNER: Yes, but there was a request from Mr. Ackerman that

3 you, the judges, should examine whether we are correct in this and I'm

4 merely saying.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You put forward the document or whatever you've just

6 suggested for us to be able to take a decision, on it.

7 MS. KORNER: If so required.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it would be in the best interests of

9 justice.

10 MS. KORNER: So, Your Honours, would like --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We would be able to do that before the -- well

12 before the 7th.

13 MS. KORNER: I'll provide a copy today.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: When we start again. Thank you.

15 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, I think that concludes all the

16 administrative matters that I'm aware of.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, if there are problems with the -- having the

18 first or any of these witnesses on the 7th, please advise the Defence team

19 even before you tell us. Okay? Because we will be here any way, but they

20 have to prepare for cross-examination and everything.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And if there is going to be a variation in the

23 order, presentation of these documents, then the same applies. To us, it

24 doesn't really make a difference because I suppose we will have the

25 statements and we can read them and prepare ourselves but they have to

Page 10154

1 prepare for cross-examination.

2 MS. KORNER: Forgive me, Your Honour, I'm not sure -- Your Honour,

3 we are not sure whether you have all the statements.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: We might have one of them.

5 MS. KORNER: I think you may have 7.106.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

7 MS. KORNER: But I'm not sure you've got the rest, but we'll check

8 and we will make sure Your Honours get copies.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You took the hint. So I wish you a

10 happy weekend and a little bit of sun. Thanks, Mr. Trbojevic.

11 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. On behalf

12 of my client I have to ask you something. The break that we will have in

13 November, is this a break that we will have for sure?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Not yet.

15 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] As it has been planned?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, the idea last time was, if you recall,

17 Ms. Korner stood up and said in the general replanning and rescheduling of

18 the case, perhaps we could reconsider whether we should maintain the

19 ten-day, that's what she said, the ten-day break in November. We will be

20 discussing that and we will come back to you first thing on the 7th of

21 October. In other words, we haven't taken a decision. It depends on what

22 the outlook will be after this Status Conference and everything.

23 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. It was necessary for

24 our client to know this in order to be able to plan his visit.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... exactly. We

Page 10155

1 will cooperate in that as much as we can. The idea was to stop from the

2 13th of November right through resuming on the 25th of November. So

3 basically, we were talking of ten, if I have --

4 MS. KORNER: It isn't that, Your Honour -- I simply want to know

5 what visit we are talking about.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Probably family visits.

7 MS. KORNER: I see.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I remember well in the beginning of the trial, he --

9 they had.

10 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Explained that his family comes to visit.

12 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We will cooperate with that. We will not put any

14 obstructions. It shouldn't -- it shouldn't, we will come back, maybe we

15 will curtail the number of days that we had scheduled off, but we will

16 come, we will discuss that. I think first we need to see what the

17 position as far as the remainder of the case is going to be, what is

18 entailed with the reprogramming and -- because I think you have to

19 reorganise the strategy and everything, and also the result of the Status

20 Conference that Mr. Ackerman suggested and with which we agree. And then

21 we take it up from there. I mean we have no interest in taking holidays,

22 I can assure you, except when they are due or overdue. It.

23 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You can assure your client that we do keep the --

25 take these things into account.

Page 10156

1 I thank you. I wish you a nice weekend. And then we will all

2 meet again hopefully on the 7th of October. Thank you.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38 p.m., to

4 be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of October,

5 2002, at 9.00 a.m.