1 Monday, 14 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Madam Registrar, good morning to you. I very

6 kindly ask you to call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning to you, Your Honours. This is the

8 case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Are

10 you hearing me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I hear

12 and I understand.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: For the Prosecution, appearances.

14 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, assisted by Hasan Younis, case

15 manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

17 Appearances for the accused.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

19 I'm here with Milan Tesovic and Marela Jevtovic.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. I understand there are no

21 preliminaries. You have your schedule for the rest of the week, for this

22 week. We're working today in the morning, and the next four days in the

23 afternoon. All right?

24 Okay, Ms. Korner?

25 MS. KORNER: Yes, except we won't be working for the next four

1 days. I mean, we're going to finish by Wednesday.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: What I meant to say is I just wanted you to know

3 what the schedule is in case --

4 MS. KORNER: All right. One of the Rule 92 witnesses --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

6 MS. KORNER: -- isn't coming this week, and I can't remember which

7 one it is at the moment. I'm sorry.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I was working on that over the weekend, and in fact

9 either later on today or first thing tomorrow I was -- I meant to come

10 back to you on the Rule 92, all right? But we had a problem with 7.192.

11 That's the one with the medical certificate.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Et cetera. And I think that's the position is

14 reserved also perhaps pending -- the next one was going to be --

15 MS. KORNER: Well, one of them can't come this week, Your Honour,

16 and I have to go and check which one it is.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let me know and then we'll take it up

18 from there.

19 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, you'll recall that --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You can bring the witness in.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: -- that I requested leave until today to speak to

23 you about the Rule 92 bis thing. On, I think it was Friday night, I found

24 in the transcript where with regard to 7.191 and 7.192 I had specifically

25 said that Brdjanin had no objection --

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In fact one of the things I was going to point

2 out to you was precisely that.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: -- either one of those, and therefore it is I think

4 more difficult for me to assert that I now want them here, although I

5 would like to think that had I not known the position that General Talic's

6 counsel had taken, that I may have taken a different position, but I can't

7 say that myself.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I have gone through their statements. I have gone

9 through their statements, and I don't quite think that you would have

10 changed your position.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And also I did go through it accurately, even though

13 I didn't really have to, accurately over Talic's objection at the time.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I've done both things, Your Honour, and I really --

15 I don't know that I would -- I will not continue insisting that they be

16 brought here, frankly.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: I think it would just waste all of our time.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So good morning to you.

20 Yes, Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MS. KORNER: Do I understand that I don't now -- because 7.191 was

24 the gentleman who couldn't come until later because he didn't have a

25 passport. So I'm now taking it I don't have to bring him or 7.192.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You don't need to bring him, as I understand

2 it, 7.191.

3 MS. KORNER: Or 2.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Two the same. But 2 we had a problem with the

5 medical certificate.

6 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: He was being summoned also only for

8 cross-examination.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So the position is also that you don't

11 need to bring him over, as I take it. I stand to be corrected if I'm

12 misinterpreting you, Mr. Ackerman.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: You're not, Your Honour. You're correct.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

15 So good morning to you, and welcome back. I hope you had a

16 tranquil weekend and that you're tasting a little bit of the weather in

17 The Hague, which is just progressively getting worse, but you will be back

18 home before it really gets worse. So we will continue with your testimony

19 today, and before we do so, may I kindly ask you to stand up. The usher

20 is going to hand you the same solemn declaration that you saw last Friday.

21 And may I kindly ask you to repeat that solemn declaration, to tell us the

22 truth. Thank you.

23 WITNESS: ASIM EGRLIC

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

3 Ms. Korner.

4 Examined by Ms. Korner:

5 Q. I want to go back please to the, for a moment, official note which

6 we finished looking at last Thursday, dated the 17th of June, which I

7 believe was given an exhibit number. I can't remember what it is now?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: 1113.

9 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Yes. P1113

10 Q. And in that, do you remember we looked at the fact that there was

11 a reference in that to guard duty in local communes. Do you remember

12 that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. All right. That's all that I wanted to remind ourselves of that.

15 But I want you to have a look at another document now. Could you look at

16 P1061.

17 MS. KORNER: It's no volume 3, Your Honours, of the -- yes.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Egrlic, I think you had a chance to have a look at that

19 when you were going through various documents before you testified. Is

20 that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I think it's equally right, this apparently was some kind of a

23 diary kept by a gentleman named Edin Hodzic, and you don't know him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What I want to ask you about is some things that he records in

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1 that diary. If we look, please, at the entry for the 2nd of May, 1992,

2 where there is an entry relating to a young Muslim man being killed in

3 Kljuc the previous evening. Do you remember the killing of a young Muslim

4 man in Kljuc around the 1st of May?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who was he said to have been killed by?

7 A. After the killing, the police came out to conduct an

8 investigation, and they claimed that he was killed by a person from the

9 army, a member of the Serb army reserves.

10 Q. And it goes on to talk about an ultimatum being given to the

11 people in Vrhpolje to hand over weapons. Do you remember that ultimatum

12 being given?

13 A. The ultimatum was not broadcast over Radio Kljuc, so I don't

14 remember it.

15 Q. And then this man goes on to say that -- there's a bit of bad

16 language, and then: "They really want war. Well, then, they will have

17 it. It's just that they have much more weapons than we do." Would you

18 agree that was an accurate estimation?

19 A. Yes, it's correct.

20 Q. All right. Then if we move on to the 7th of May, that deals -- it

21 reports the takeover, the army being stationed between Pudin Han and

22 Kljuc, and Kljuc itself as well. And then if we move to the 15th of May,

23 please -- I'm sorry, the 10th of May. He records: "We have until 1500

24 hours tomorrow to hand over weapons in the Kljuc municipality." Do you

25 remember that?

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And then he talks about on the 15th of May seeing the Serbian

3 mentality -- the Serbian flag hoisted on the municipality building. And

4 then on the 28th of May, he talks about the shelling of Vrhpolje. By the

5 28th of May, you had been arrested; is that correct?

6 A. I was arrested on the 28th.

7 Q. Before or after your arrest, did you hear about the shelling at

8 Vrhpolje?

9 A. I heard that there were -- there was shooting in Sanski Most and

10 that the first Bosniaks had been arrested.

11 Q. All right. And then the rest of the diary is a description of

12 events which happened after your arrest. Yes. Thank you. If you can put

13 that away.

14 And now could you have a look, please, at another document that is

15 actually entitled "Guard Duty."

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this was attached to the statement and

17 was on the list. Your Honours got copies of it. It was in that bundle

18 that we handed in, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

20 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

21 Q. Now, first of all, Mr. Egrlic, is this a document that you had

22 seen before? It appears to be some kind of an announcement or something

23 that went out on Kljuc radio.

24 A. This is a part of a document. I think that I did see it before.

25 Q. And are you able to help us as to what it is at all? It talks

1 about talking to you in the third paragraph. It appears to be some kind

2 of a reporter.

3 A. I think this is a journalist from Radio Kljuc. I had the

4 conversation with him so that he would be able to inform the public.

5 Q. And I know it's difficult, but can you remember roughly when this

6 was? Because there's no date on it.

7 A. It could have been in April 1992.

8 Q. All right. Now, it begins by saying that "In The past two days,

9 stories about guard duty in the area of Krasulje and Pudin Han have been

10 circulating around Kljuc municipality. We could not obtain any

11 information from official organs and the public security station because

12 they had been officially instructed that any communication with the public

13 was to be carried out through the official spokesman, whom we could not

14 reach. However, we talked to the presidents of the SDA and the MBO, Asim

15 Egrlic and Omer Filipovic, who told us it was true that people had stood

16 guard and been on duty during holidays and some cars had even been stopped

17 and passengers asked to present their identity cards in Donji Krasulje,

18 and but this had all been done by citizens of Muslim nationality who had

19 organised themselves on their own initiative because of everything that

20 had been going on in the country and because of possible acts of

21 provocation in BH territory."

22 It's not true that guard duty was organised on the orders of

23 activists from these parties. This was complete disinformation. It is

24 true, however, that activists went out in the field before and during the

25 holidays, pointing out that it was necessary to be on heightened alert but

1 not to organise people to stand guard and be on duty. SDA and MBO

2 representatives told us that Muslim people --" and then, "As regards

3 barricades, we were told that was too strong a word for what had happened.

4 SDA and MBO representatives told us that the Muslim people had a reason to

5 be on the alert because they could be the scapegoat in the conflict

6 between Serbs and Croats," and so on.

7 Now, first of all, is that, from what you recall, an accurate

8 report of what you and Mr. Filipovic said?

9 A. I think that it is.

10 Q. And could you just explain: It talks about a holiday. Which

11 holiday was that?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It talks about holidays.

13 MS. KORNER: Or holidays. Sorry. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 A. According to the last sentence, it's possible that this was in

15 1991, and we are probably talking about the November holidays here.

16 Q. The November holidays being what?

17 A. The 29th of November is statehood day, so that day is not a

18 working day.

19 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Egrlic. You can put that

20 document away now.

21 I'm going to ask you to look at in a moment at the statement that

22 you actually signed at Manjaca, but before I do that, I want to go back

23 over one thing, when I check the transcript. You told us about the army,

24 and we saw it in that diary being stationed in the Kljuc area, around

25 Laniste and between Pudin Han and Kljuc town. You told us that there were

1 the Knin Corps. Were you familiar with a part of the army called the 6th

2 Krajina Brigade?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And at this period of time, so May 1992, were they stationed

5 anywhere in Kljuc that you were aware of?

6 A. They came to Kljuc on the 7th of May and they were distributed at

7 all the important checkpoints around Kljuc, all the important places.

8 Q. And how did you know they were the 6th Krajina Brigade?

9 A. Because they came from the direction of Sanski Most. That's where

10 they were stationed.

11 Q. So was there anything about their insignia that established who

12 they were?

13 A. Just like with the police, the insignia was changed.

14 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, I want you to have a look, please, at

15 the actual statement that you signed in Manjaca. I think it's headed --

16 yes. It's headed "Manjaca prisoner of war camp" and dated the 29th of

17 June. It was attached to the statement when it was handed to Your

18 Honours. It's attached, for the purpose of Madam -- it was attached to

19 the bundle of statements that were handed in.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It's 03039891; correct?

21 MS. KORNER: That's right. I'm just waiting while the registry

22 find it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: It was attached to the statement.

24 MS. KORNER: It's attached to the statement. It's a totally

25 separate bundle.

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1 Your Honour, we've got our copy. If the witness has the version

2 in B/C/S and if you can put the English on the ELMO, please.

3 Q. Now, you told us on Thursday, Mr. Egrlic, about the beatings which

4 had taken place before and after the interrogations. First of all, is

5 that your signature at the bottom of the statement?

6 A. I think that it is.

7 Q. What sort of state were you in when you signed this statement?

8 A. I had been taken from the stables, where we were placed. I had

9 been taken out from there several times to provide a statement. Before

10 that, all of those who were to provide statements would be beaten, and

11 that was the state we were in while providing statements.

12 Q. Did you have an opportunity before you signed to read through what

13 was contained in the statement?

14 A. I didn't read it because they kept telling us to hurry up, so that

15 I signed it without reading it.

16 Q. And were there a number of you at the same time being brought in

17 to sign statements?

18 A. I was alone.

19 Q. All right. Can we just look at the contents, then? It's dated

20 the 29th of June, 1992, Manjaca prisoner of war camp, military secret,

21 strictly confidential. And the first paragraph says that:

22 "During May of 1992, I attended a meeting in Sanski Most. Omer

23 Filipovic and I went to the meeting," and I'm summarising it: The meeting

24 was convened and held at the initiative of representatives from Sanski

25 Most, and the following people also attended the meeting: Redzo Kurbegovic

1 and Mirzet Karabeg. And the secretary and one or two people I did not

2 know. At the meeting there was discussion of the general situation in the

3 Republic and problems of a similar nature in the municipality, related to

4 changes in the police insignia and suspension of the municipal organs, et

5 cetera.

6 It was believed the events might lead to a deterioration in

7 relations since a request for weapons to be surrendered is expected from

8 the Crisis Staff in Sanski Most. The meeting did not adopt any official

9 conclusions, but it was said that the appointed staff of the BH

10 Territorial Defence should request a display of loyalty to BH and they

11 should be ready for defence in the event of a possible attack. In this

12 respect, the two municipalities might possibly act together since they

13 border one another.

14 Mr. Egrlic, first, was there such a meeting in Sanski Most?

15 A. Yes, indeed, there was.

16 Q. And were the discussions as set out here?

17 A. There were discussions and general concern was expressed about

18 situation, but there was no possibility of cooperation, because

19 checkpoints had already been set up at all the junctions there. And

20 throughout the municipality of Kljuc, as well as in Sanski Most.

21 Q. But did you tell your interrogators in Manjaca that there was a

22 possibility that the municipalities might act together at that stage?

23 A. I said that we had held a meeting and we expressed concern for the

24 citizens' safety, but there was no talk of any form of cooperation

25 whatsoever.

1 Q. And then the next part of that statement deals with events in

2 Kljuc on the 27th of May, and in effect, it's very much as the record of

3 interrogation that you and Mr. Filipovic had come to the centre in Pudin

4 Han to connect the telephone and the fax machine. And then you heard

5 about the incident in Krasulje and Omer Filipovic went off there and

6 discovered that a policeman had been killed and another wounded.

7 First, is that what happened?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. And then you apparently were surprised and confused, went home to

10 your family, and then you all fled because of the shooting, and you then

11 left your family and went to Pudin Han to find out what was happening,

12 where you found Omer, and that's what happened, was it?

13 A. Yes, that's true.

14 Q. And then you heard about the shelling of Velagici, you went to

15 spend the night with someone else, and then you accidentally wounded

16 yourself. Is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Yes. Thank you.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't think that's been exhibited

20 yet. May that be made P1114.

21 Q. Now, you told us about the beatings. When did the beatings

22 actually start? At Manjaca, I'm talking about.

23 A. There were beatings on a daily basis, so you can't really say

24 where the beginning was, or the end, for that matter.

25 Q. You arrived at Manjaca sometime in mid-June. When was actually

1 the first time that you were beaten?

2 A. The first time, just like everyone else, I was beaten as soon as I

3 arrived, when they called out our names and when we were brought into the

4 camp.

5 Q. And do you know the name of the man who beat you?

6 A. I did find out later, the first day after our arrival. Of course,

7 I didn't know at first, but while I was there I got to learn the name.

8 Q. And what was the name of the man?

9 A. His nickname was Fadil.

10 Q. And did you ever discover what his real name was?

11 A. Yes, I did, but right now I can't seem to remember.

12 Q. What did he beat you with?

13 A. He beat me with a club which was made out of wire -- it was made

14 out of a cable, and he used this club to beat prisoners.

15 Q. And what injuries did you suffer as a result of that beating?

16 A. Both at that time and later, I was beaten on my back. My ribs

17 were broken and my collarbone was broken.

18 Q. Were you able to get any medical treatment at the camp?

19 A. Not for those who were beaten. Those were not administered any

20 medical assistance, nor was I.

21 Q. If people were seeking medical treatment and waiting outside the,

22 as it were, makeshift surgery, what would happen to them?

23 A. Normally, those guards who would take people to the medical

24 station to receive medical assistance, those were the people who would be

25 beaten, both on the way to the medical station and on the way back.

1 Q. Did you see the camp commander?

2 A. Yes, I did, once.

3 Q. As far as you are aware, was he ever present when beatings were

4 happening?

5 A. Not that I know of. Mostly it was the guards who beat us.

6 Q. I think it's right: You were in Manjaca until December. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, or thereabouts. To the best of my recollection, I think it

9 was the 13th of December.

10 Q. I just want to ask you a few questions, please, about the

11 conditions at Manjaca. First of all, before the arrival the Red Cross,

12 what sort of food were you getting?

13 A. Before the arrival of the Red Cross, we had, well, I'm not sure

14 you could really call that a meal. It was some sort of a soup, and a

15 slice of bread each, which would then be cut up into 30 or more pieces.

16 We kept losing weight, so both myself and the other prisoners, some of us

17 lost over 20 kilos in just two months.

18 Q. What about sanitation facilities?

19 A. Well, the sanitation facilities, I'm not sure you could really

20 talk about that. That was gruelling. Those were stables over there where

21 people would be put up. Of course, there was cattle being kept in those

22 stables before we came. So on some parts of the ground, you had hay

23 covering the ground, and there were blankets in some spots. As far as the

24 toilet facilities are concerned, we had field privies, and the situation

25 in those privies was horrible. Order was brought by taking ten prisoners

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1 at a time to the field privy to relieve themselves. As far as water is

2 concerned, water would be brought from a nearby lake. So during summer,

3 people would have three sips of water each, because there was not enough

4 water for all the inmates. There wasn't enough water to be supplied.

5 Q. After the arrival of the Red Cross, did conditions improve?

6 A. After the arrival of the Red Cross, conditions improved as far as

7 food was concerned. Food supply continued, and then the size of the meals

8 improved. So food, generally speaking, improved after the arrival of the

9 Red Cross.

10 Q. Did the beatings continue after the arrival of the Red Cross or

11 did they stop?

12 A. Yes, the beatings continued. Beatings became particularly severe

13 after people's names were called out, so that people would be taken to

14 perform labour in the woods or in the fields.

15 Q. You say it became particularly severe after their names had been

16 called out. Do you mean the beatings took place on the way to labour?

17 A. This did take place very often indeed, but I do remember one

18 particularly impressive or, should I say, dreadful event, when there

19 weren't enough people to volunteer. Then they would just herd all the

20 inmates outside the stables, where they were being held, and they would

21 start beating them. During those beatings, I received a blow with a

22 wooden plank over my right shoulder, and that's when my collarbone broke.

23 This was the sort of repression they used to force people to go outside

24 the camp to perform labour.

25 Q. Do you remember the death of Omer Filipovic?

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Did you see him before his death?

3 A. I did see him, because just before his death they had released him

4 and brought him to a stable. He was lying there, and it was clear that he

5 had been beaten very badly. He was pale and he looked powerless. After a

6 while, however, they took him back to the solitary, and on the next day it

7 was said publicly that he had died.

8 Q. Do you know why Omer Filipovic was particularly picked upon like

9 this, beaten so badly?

10 A. I believe that this was so because everyone knew that he was a

11 prominent person, a well-respected person, professor of history. Everyone

12 knew that he had been appointed head of the TO staff for Kljuc

13 municipality and that that was the reason why they would take him away and

14 beat him and why they wanted statements from him. He didn't survive. He

15 succumbed to the result of those beatings.

16 Q. During your stay at the camp, if that's the right word, did you

17 see any of the politicians from Banja Luka at the camp?

18 A. Yes, on one occasion, one of the politicians arrived and he gave a

19 speech to the inmates, saying that the whole thing would be over very soon

20 and that people would be released and free to return to their homes. He

21 imbued people with a false sense of confidence, because long after he had

22 been there, people stayed on in the camp. Some died. Some never returned

23 to their homes.

24 Q. Do you know who it was?

25 A. I think it was the president of the municipality -- of the

1 Municipal Assembly of the Autonomous Region.

2 Q. Did you recognise him, or were you just told who he was?

3 A. No. I think that's who he said he was.

4 Q. And he told you he was what? The president of --?

5 A. The Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina.

6 Q. All right. Now, have you had any lasting results or any lasting

7 effects, I should say, of what was done to you in Manjaca?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you tell the Court what?

10 A. I have headaches all the time and a buzzing sound in my ears, pain

11 in my chest, and my spine was damaged, due to which I had to undergo an

12 operation.

13 Q. All right. I want to look at a few documents that relate to the

14 period when you were in Manjaca but relate also to you. Could you have a

15 look, please, first of all at the document which is a manuscript document.

16 MS. KORNER: I think, Your Honour, it may be -- no. It's in that

17 bundle I gave you. It's got the numbers. It's translation -- it's

18 hand -- the original is handwritten. It's headed "Crisis Staff."

19 Q. Now, Mr. Egrlic, there's a note on it which says this manuscript

20 was found within the documentation of the Kljuc SJB and concerns the

21 period immediately before the ethnic cleansing of villages with a Muslim

22 population. Had you seen this document before you came here?

23 A. No.

24 Q. If we look, please, at the first page. It's dated the 10th of

25 June, 1992 and headed "Crisis Staff," which operated before but was

1 dissolved immediately before the armed conflicts, Muhamed Filipovic, who

2 was in fact, I think, erroneously says the SDA. Omer Filipovic,

3 commissioner, and then yourself, political person, and some other people

4 are named. Now, I think you told us before that there was an idea of

5 having a Crisis Staff but it never operated. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Can we then look, please, at the rest of this document, leaving

8 out the next one, the TO, 3, protection staff company, not formed but

9 planned, and then 4, independent companies, three companies: Kljuc,

10 Velagici, Sanica, which numbered 75 to 100 staff members. Was that an

11 accurate assessment?

12 A. These companies were never formed, but I think the estimate may be

13 correct, because it was known how many able-bodied men of military age

14 were in the area at that time.

15 Q. And then it goes on. There were four platoons, and names the four

16 places where they were. Were there platoons, four platoons?

17 A. No. There was nothing, no guards, as I said before.

18 Q. All right. And then I'm not going to take you through all of this

19 document, but it says for Velagici company, company commander Hamija Avdic

20 [phoen] in flight. Was that correct? Did he get away?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Then platoon commander -- sorry. Ekrem Cehic, prison. Did you

23 know this man?

24 A. No, I didn't know Ekrem.

25 Q. Did you know any of the people named on this page?

1 A. Is this page 7 we're talking about?

2 Q. It's under -- if you look under -- it's the first -- it has

3 Velagici at the top and then Krasulje in the middle of the page. It's the

4 third page of the document.

5 A. Velagici and then Krasulje.

6 Q. That's right.

7 A. I have it.

8 Q. I just want to know whether there were any people on that page who

9 you knew.

10 A. I knew Salih Salihovic and Nevzad Djeric.

11 Q. This says that they're in prison.

12 A. Also --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 MS. KORNER: That's right, yes.

15 Q. When it referred to "prison," do you know what it referred to,

16 which prison? For example, were any of the people on this page in Manjaca

17 with you?

18 A. All these people were. Salih Salihovic, Nevzad Djeric, in flight,

19 Enes Salihovic, and Fahrudin Cemal they were all in the Manjaca camp.

20 Q. All right. This appears to be some sort of record, as we can see,

21 of happened to the various people. Yes, thank you.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think that's been exhibited yet.

23 Could that be made P1115, 1115.

24 Q. Could you look next, please, at a document dated the 26th of June

25 and headed "Review."

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: Does it have a number, Ms. Korner?

2 MS. KORNER: Yes. The translation L0071078.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. This is going to be P1116?

4 MS. KORNER: It is. Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. This is review of executive positions held by employees of Muslim

6 nationality. Your name comes first. I think you had a chance to look at

7 this document the other day. But were all these people on this list in

8 fact Muslims? For example, if you go, please, to where we come to

9 Sana-Kljuc, the director?

10 A. Director Drasko Banjac. He was a Serb, but he was married to a

11 Muslim woman.

12 Q. Now, these people, the Muslims who were named here, did all of

13 them lose their jobs?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Roughly how many of them were, if you can tell us -- if we just,

16 for example, look at the Municipal Assembly Kljuc, how many of these

17 people were arrested? The very first page.

18 A. I was arrested, secretary of the executive committee, Fikret

19 Balagic, was killed, Mrs. Filipovic was not arrested, Hamdija Ducanovic

20 was not arrested either. From this list I was the only one to be

21 arrested, and Mr. Fikret Balagic was killed. All the others on this list

22 were fired and they were left without a job.

23 Q. Where was Mr. Balagic killed?

24 A. Mr. Balagic was killed in Biljani, alongside with the other locals

25 from Biljani, and he was found together with his neighbours in a pit on

1 Laniste after their arrival in Kljuc in 1996.

2 Q. All right. Thank you. Could you look now, please, at a document

3 dated the 21st of July and headed "Ruling."

4 MS. KORNER: The number, Your Honour, is 01107624. Your Honour,

5 perhaps -- I'm sorry. Perhaps it may have been -- it was attached to the

6 statement. Perhaps I can just show it and we'll make copies.

7 If that can go on the ELMO. Actually, if we put it on the ELMO,

8 that will do, and give the B/C/S to him.

9 Q. That's dated the 21st of July and it states that the Kljuc

10 Municipal Assembly or War Presidency passed a ruling to relieve the

11 chairman of the Kljuc municipality of his duty, the executive committee of

12 his duty, Asim Egrlic the current chairman of the Kljuc municipality

13 executive committee will be relieved of his duty as chairman on the 1st of

14 June, 1992, and it's signed by the president of the War Presidency, Jovo

15 Banjac. By the 1st of June, 1992, where were you?

16 A. From the 28th onwards I was detained at the camp, from the 28th of

17 May onwards. That's when I was at the camp.

18 Q. Yes. Thank you.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I'm afraid it was missed off

20 my list, but perhaps that could be made Exhibit P1117 and we'll provide

21 copies after the break.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

23 MS. KORNER:

24 Q. Now could you have a look, please, at a document dated the 3rd of

25 August, 1992. I'm sorry. Before that, could you have a look at a

1 document dated -- it's headed "List of persons from Pudin Han and

2 Velagici." The number is O0064776, I think. It's a list of -- yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It is going to be 1117?

4 MS. KORNER: 1118, please, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: 1118.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

8 MS. KORNER:

9 Q. It's headed "List of persons from Pudin Han and Velagici," and we

10 see there your name as number 4, your function, SDA president weapons. It

11 alleges that you had this submachine-gun, or I think it's called a Zagi,

12 and a pistol. Was that correct?

13 A. It's true that I had a pistol.

14 Q. But not the other weapon?

15 A. No. Just the pistol.

16 Q. "Then status: Processed, result prison; remark, dealt with

17 political issues." Do you know -- apart from the obvious ones, like Omer

18 Filipovic, do you know the other people on the list? For example, number

19 13?

20 A. I didn't know him.

21 Q. Perhaps you had better tell us: Which ones on the list did you

22 know?

23 A. I knew the late Omer, Amir, Nevzad, Salih, Enes, Fahrudin, Hilmo

24 Draganovic.

25 Q. Under number 7, Enes Salihovic it says: "Function, highest

1 leadership." What sort of function did Mr. Salihovic have?

2 A. As far as I know, he had a private printing press, but he wasn't

3 part of the leadership, part of any leadership.

4 Q. It alleges that he organised the ammunition supply and prepared an

5 ambush for the police. Are you aware of him doing anything like that?

6 A. No. I don't know anything about that.

7 Q. All right. Now could we have a look, please, and just two more

8 documents, first of all at a document dated the 3rd of August, 1992. The

9 numbers are L0063751. It's headed -- yes- "Commission for gathering

10 information on resettlement of the population."

11 This apparently is a record compiled on the 3rd of August, in the

12 offices of Kljuc municipality, regarding a declaration of means given by

13 Sabiha Egrlic before permanently leaving the territory of Kljuc

14 municipality of her own free will. Who was Sabiha Egrlic?

15 A. That was my wife.

16 Q. It goes on to say who was present and then says: "The party

17 Egrlici approached this organ without having been summoned and after being

18 informed of the order of War Presidency of Kljuc municipality setting up

19 criteria for permanent departure." And then she made a declaration that

20 she possesses the following immovable property and gives a description and

21 that "I am leaving Kljuc municipality with my family for good, of my own

22 free will, and I have made this statement without coercion and in full

23 consciousness of my words, for the purpose of obtaining documents for

24 permanent resettlement and departure from Kljuc municipality."

25 Were you aware of what your -- did you become aware of what your

1 wife had done?

2 A. My wife, just like all the others who had to leave the

3 municipality of Kljuc, had to sign such statements that they were leaving

4 all of their property to Republika Srpska, and they had to also make all

5 of the payments that were outstanding, for example, outstanding telephone

6 bills, electricity bills, taxes, and they also had to sign a statement

7 that they were giving up their property. Only then could they leave the

8 area of the Kljuc municipality.

9 Q. Did she leave of her own free will?

10 A. She had to. She didn't go of her own free will.

11 Q. Yes. Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER: Could that, please, be made P1119.

13 Q. When you returned to Kljuc in 1995, I think it was, what had

14 happened to your property?

15 A. When I came back to Kljuc, all my property was completely

16 destroyed, just like the property of the majority of Bosniaks from the

17 municipality of Kljuc. My house was burned, my car also. I practically

18 had nothing.

19 Q. The final document I want you to look at.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that is already an exhibit. It is

21 P1101, I think.

22 Your Honour, we looked at it with Mr. Filipovic. Could he be

23 handed the B/C/S version, please.

24 Q. This is dated the 9th of June, 1995, headed "The Republika Srpska

25 public security station in Kljuc." And it's a criminal report being filed

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1 against you, amongst other people, in respect of what is described later

2 as, I think, armed rebellion. Yes. If we look -- it's you and 238 other

3 people, and if we look under -- if you look under 239th you'll see on

4 grounds of reasonable suspicion, having committed the gravest form of the

5 crime of armed rebellion. There's then a description of what's said to be

6 the allegations.

7 Were you aware that in June of 1995 a criminal report had been

8 filed against you?

9 A. I didn't know about this. I found out about it when I came to

10 Kljuc.

11 Q. And how much longer after this - this is dated June of 1995 - did

12 you return to Kljuc?

13 A. I came back to Kljuc in late September 1995.

14 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now finally this, Mr. Egrlic: You've told us

15 that you came back to find your property, your house, destroyed, and that

16 of other Muslims. What about mosques in Kljuc? Were any standing?

17 A. All the mosques in the municipality of Kljuc were knocked down, as

18 well as the facilities which were used for the housing of religious

19 officials.

20 Q. Was there a Catholic church or Catholic churches -- well, first of

21 all, in Kljuc town was there a Catholic church?

22 A. There was one, but that also was destroyed.

23 Q. How many Muslims were left in the municipality when you returned

24 in September of 1995?

25 A. About 600 Muslims, Muslim Bosniaks.

1 Q. And how many roughly? We've got some figures, but how many were

2 there before the events of May 1992?

3 A. According to the census, there were about 17.700 in the region of

4 the municipality.

5 Q. And over the next really years, were you present at a number of

6 exhumations that took place throughout the municipality?

7 A. I went to all the places where mass graves were found. The first

8 one that was discovered was the so-called Crvena Zemlja location, red

9 earth, then Babina Dolina at Laniste, then Bezdana at Laniste. Then there

10 was the mass grave at Prhovo. And the last mass grave that was discovered

11 was at Ratkovo where people from the Humici local community were found.

12 Citizens from Biljani, Velagici, Kljuc were found in these mass graves.

13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Egrlic. Can you wait there.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

15 We've got about eight minutes before the break. Would you prefer

16 to start now and then break after eight minutes or break now and resume

17 after the break?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: It's probably easier to break now and start after

19 the break.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I ask Mr. Ackerman, it's simply the

21 next witness, whether we'll get to the next witness today?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: It's just almost impossible for me to say. I guess

23 I'd have to say there is a possibility we could.

24 MS. KORNER: It's simply whether we bring him to the Court.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: My rough guess is that we might start with him. So

1 I would suggest, Ms. Korner, that you bring him over for after the next

2 break.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes. We'll do that.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I'm pretty sure that he will take up the

5 next hour and a half.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, by the next break I'll have a real

7 good idea how much longer I'll be, I'm sure and then we can make that

8 decision, I suppose.

9 MS. KORNER: I just didn't want to put him in the witness waiting

10 room unnecessarily. So we'll wait until the next break and let him know.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a break now, and then Mr. Ackerman for

12 Mr. Brdjanin will start examining you immediately after. The break is for

13 25 minutes please. Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry, Your Honour. We're having a problem

18 here with computers, but we seem to have one that's working, so it's okay.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it okay?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so. This one has stopped completely, but

21 it's -- the other one seems to be working still. All right. May I

22 proceed?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: May I just remind you, sir, of something I told you

2 last Friday when you started giving evidence, and you are going to be

3 cross-examined by the lead counsel for the accused in this case. This is

4 a right that is given by the law, by our Rules in particular, to any

5 accused, to have witnesses brought forward by the Prosecution

6 cross-examined by the Defence for the accused, and your duty is to treat

7 counsel for the accused the same as you've treated the counsel for the

8 Prosecution, and your duty is to answer all questions truthfully, unless

9 we tell you not to answer a particular question.

10 Mr. Ackerman, the witness is in your hands.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

13 Q. Good morning, sir.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. Sir, I'm going to have a number of questions to ask you, and to

16 the extent that it's possible, please try to confine your answers to yes

17 or no, because I intend to ask you some questions that can easily be

18 answered that way. There will also be questions where you will have to

19 make some explanations, but I think the differential should be clear to

20 you. Okay?

21 I'm going to ask you a series of questions that arise from the

22 testimony you gave here last week, and I want to begin with -- you will

23 recall that you had before you last week a document which was a telex or

24 fax that you said had come from somewhere, but it had Mr. Brdjanin's name

25 on it, and it appeared to be some instructions, and you had kept a copy of

1 it, but it had gotten burned up in your house, and the document we're

2 talking about is Prosecution's Exhibit P22. Do you recall that document?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. And you were asked by Ms. Korner - and this is at page 32 of the

5 transcript - "There are in there a set of instructions. Were those

6 instructions actually put into effect?" Your answer was: "They were."

7 The question then: "All of them or just some of them, if you can

8 remember?" Your answer: "Most of them were implemented from 1991 right

9 up until May 1992."

10 And I'd ask that you be shown that exhibit, P22, please. I want

11 to go through each paragraph and ask you a question about each one. We'll

12 start with paragraph 1. First of all, this is a document dated 29 October

13 1991, is it not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Paragraph 1 says:

16 "Immediately form a command of the town and set up round-the-clock

17 duty."

18 Was that paragraph implemented immediately after 29 October 1991?

19 A. I'm not sure if immediately, but later on, yes, indeed.

20 Q. Well, later on would have been 1992, wouldn't it?

21 A. I found out about it in early 1992.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just putting the English version on the ELMO.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

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1 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just asking the usher to put the English version

2 on the ELMO so that the public can follow. Thank you.

3 MR. ACKERMAN:

4 Q. Number 2: "Establish full mobility of the Territorial Defence."

5 Do you know if that was done?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When?

8 A. From mid-1991 onwards, there were permanent mobilisations.

9 Q. "Form units for the front and designate their replacements." Do

10 you know if that was done?

11 A. This was done when the units of the Knin Corps arrived at Laniste.

12 Q. And when was that?

13 A. That was in March 1992.

14 Q. Five months after this document?

15 A. At the time of this document, there were units of volunteers who

16 went to Croatia to take part in the war there.

17 Q. Number 4: "All men under the age of 40 to be reassigned from

18 civilian protection to the Territorial Defence, and the Territorial

19 Defence to be resubordinated to the corps as wartime units." Did that

20 happen?

21 A. I don't know about that, because I didn't see any evidence or

22 documents about this.

23 Q. Number 5: "Take over management in public enterprises, the post

24 office, SDK, bank, judiciary, and, by all means, the media." Was that

25 done?

1 A. Yes, during April and May 1992.

2 Q. In other words, six -- around six months after this document;

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. 6: "Proclaim a wartime programme schedule on radio stations." Was

6 that done?

7 A. That was also done in 1992.

8 Q. Number 7: "In each municipality, call a meeting of all directors

9 and agree on the means of supplying the population with everything from

10 electricity to consumer goods." Do you know if that happened?

11 A. There were several meetings, as far as businessmen from the Kljuc

12 area are concerned, during 1991 and 1992.

13 Q. Did those meetings have to do with agreement on the means of

14 supplying the population with everything from electricity to consumer

15 goods?

16 A. In the second half of 1991, restriction measures had already been

17 introduced with regard to the supply of fuel.

18 Q. Look at number 8, please: "Place a moratorium on the issuing of

19 construction permits, sale of plots/of land, election of directors, where

20 the absence of reservists is being abused, and halt all changes of

21 ownership of enterprises, et cetera." Was that done?

22 A. I don't know whether this has been implemented completely, fully,

23 but I do know that SDS leaders worked -- built business premises,

24 buildings used for business premises, to house business premises, with no

25 permission whatsoever, in the very centre of Kljuc.

1 Q. So this was ignored; correct?

2 A. I don't think it was ignored. It was done with tacit consent.

3 There was no intervention to keep this from happening.

4 Q. Well, there was a big dispute about that in the Assembly, wasn't

5 there, that you were involved in, regarding construction permits or

6 something, where you withdrew from the Assembly because of refusal to

7 discuss it?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. That may have been in March.

11 Q. Of 1992?

12 A. 1992.

13 Q. Yes. Number 10: "All weapons and equipment to be collected from

14 deserters." Do you know if that happened?

15 A. I don't know whether they collected the weapons from those

16 deserters.

17 Q. Number 11: "Make lists of surplus goods, as well as shortages,

18 and inform SDS Sarajevo, Mr. Ilic, about this." Do you know if that was

19 done?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Number 12: "Paramilitary formations, if they exist, to be

22 disbanded immediately and reassigned to the Territorial Defence. This

23 must be carried out without fail." Was that done?

24 A. No, it wasn't. They continued to be independent and not under

25 anyone's command, a number of groups which intimidated the population by

1 shooting.

2 Q. 13: "Impose also war taxes for greater success of the entire

3 operation." Was that done?

4 A. I wouldn't know, except that meetings were held with directors of

5 companies, and that they were requested to provide assistance.

6 Q. So you don't know anything about war taxes; correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And number 14: "Request Radio Banja Luka to broadcast one hour of

9 programme time daily on the war events in Croatia." Would the authorities

10 in Kljuc have had any authority to request Radio Banja Luka to do

11 anything?

12 A. They practically put together the programme schedule for Radio

13 Kljuc.

14 Q. But not Radio Banja Luka?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So when you told the Judges that most of these were carried out,

17 what you really meant was maybe one or two of them, and probably in 1992;

18 is that a fair statement?

19 A. I thought that when I said "most of them," I was referring to the

20 most important of these items, and those indeed were implemented.

21 Q. This document is not signed by Mr. Brdjanin, is it? There's no

22 signature on it.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever see any other document in which Mr. Brdjanin was

25 designated a coordinator?

1 A. I did. A document with this content, but not any other document.

2 Q. So this is the only document you've seen in which he was

3 designated a coordinator?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know that a coordinator is simply a person who coordinates

6 between bodies and has no authority in their own right? Do you know that?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm finished with that document for now.

9 Q. During your testimony - it's page 32, line 17 - you were asked if

10 you had any other conversations with any of the leadership of the SDS

11 about Mr. Brdjanin. After a couple of other asides, your answer was this:

12 "Not directly, but I heard from SDS representatives that Brdjanin was

13 highly respected in the SDS and that he was deeply appreciated."

14 That was your answer; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who were these SDS representatives that you heard that from? What

17 were their names?

18 A. I heard this from Jovo Banjac and Veljko Kondic.

19 Q. And when did you hear that?

20 A. I heard this on several occasions, especially in early 1992.

21 Q. So you're telling us that you heard from Jovo Banjac that Brdjanin

22 was highly respected and deeply appreciated; right?

23 A. That's true.

24 Q. And you also told us, on the same page, in line 7, that when you

25 asked Jovo Banjac about this document, P22, he said: "Never mind that.

1 Brdjo is crazy." Right?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. I'd like you to now be handed Exhibit 853.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Put the English on the ELMO, please.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a document with two versions on the same

7 sheet of paper. So do we have it on the ELMO? Yes, we have. All right.

8 The English version.

9 Please go ahead, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN:

11 Q. Sir, we discussed this document when you testified the other day.

12 You discussed it. I want to specifically refer you to the last paragraph.

13 First of all, just to kind of set the scene here, this was June 9th of

14 1991, wasn't it?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And this is a document jointly authored by you and Omer Filipovic;

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the last paragraph of that document, you say this:

20 "We call on all patriots to unite in the struggle to preserve the

21 sovereignty of Bosnia and Herzegovina, regardless of their ethnic,

22 religious, or political affiliation."

23 Now, at that time, Bosnia-Herzegovina was part of Yugoslavia,

24 wasn't it?

25 A. Yes, but at that time, volunteers started to leave for Croatia, to

1 fight there.

2 Q. Well, what was going on in Croatia was an effort to preserve the

3 sovereignty Yugoslavia by keeping Croatia from seceding, wasn't it?

4 A. No. That was an attempt to create Greater Serbia.

5 Q. Well, that's your take on it, but Croatia was trying to secede

6 from Yugoslavia and an effort was being made to keep that from happening;

7 isn't that the truth?

8 A. No, that's not true.

9 Q. So it's not true that Croatia wanted to be independent?

10 A. It wanted to be independent after negotiations on the status of

11 former Yugoslavia had failed.

12 Q. What you're calling for by this document is you're calling for

13 people to revolt against what's going on. Patriots should unite, the

14 Muslims should unite, take up arms; correct?

15 A. That's not correct. It reads, clearly: "Regardless of their

16 ethnic, religious, or political affiliation."

17 Q. All right. We'll come to that a little bit later.

18 Was there a war going on -- I'm sorry. Was there a war going on

19 in Croatia on 9 June of 1991?

20 A. I'm not sure whether there was a war at that time, but the

21 so-called log revolution was already under way at that point.

22 Q. Now, with regard to this particular document that you have before

23 you, and that last sentence regarding the threat to sovereignty, on page

24 35, at line 9, you were asked this: "And what made you feel that this

25 threatened the sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina?" And your answer was

1 this, sir: "We felt so because similar attempts were made in relation to

2 joining Kljuc to the Bosanska Krajina region, and we felt that this could

3 happen in the region, in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

4 Now, you just made that answer up, didn't you?

5 A. No, I didn't. It's true that Kljuc was joined to the Banja Luka

6 region.

7 Q. But in that answer, you're talking about the Autonomous Region of

8 Krajina, aren't you?

9 A. The Autonomous Region of Krajina. This communique, we tried to

10 draw people's attention to the fact that the same thing must be prevented

11 from happening in Kljuc, but eventually did happen. Everyone knows that

12 Kljuc was joined to the Banja Luka autonomous region without consulting

13 the other ethnic groups living in the area.

14 Q. The Autonomous Region of Krajina didn't exist in June of 1991, did

15 it? No effort was being made to join Kljuc to the Autonomous Region of

16 Krajina. It didn't exist. Right?

17 A. There was an idea, even as early as 1991, a first attempt was

18 carried out, and the Municipal Assembly knew nothing about it. There was

19 an attempt to join the Kljuc municipality to the Banja Luka Autonomous

20 Region.

21 Q. There wasn't any Banja Luka Autonomous Region in early -- in June

22 of 1991, was there?

23 A. I can't remember the exact date when the Autonomous Region was

24 established, but I do know that the first annexation of the Kljuc

25 municipality was carried out without the official organs of the Kljuc

1 municipality being informed, and we drafted a communique, a statement to

2 the public, about this.

3 Q. I'd like you to be shown Exhibit P858, please. Now, this

4 document, you have it before you, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This document is a bit later. It's 21 September of 1991, isn't

7 it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You're making a public announcement, you and Omer Filipovic, that

10 the Muslim residents of Kljuc shall stand under no obligation to serve in

11 units of the reserve strength of the Yugoslav army; correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. "We Bosnian Muslims do not wish and shall take no part in this

14 war, because we do not consider the war or the Serbian/Croatian conflict

15 our own." Correct? Now, by this document --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer of the

17 witness.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Egrlic --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Egrlic, the interpreter did not hear your

21 answer. Could you repeat your answer again, please. The question that

22 was put to you was: "You're making a public announcement, you and Omer

23 Filipovic, that the Muslim residents of Kljuc shall stand under no

24 obligation to serve in the units of the reserve strength of the Yugoslav

25 army; correct?" "Correct." And then you were asked: We Bosnian Muslims

1 do not wish and shall take no part in this war, because we do not consider

2 the war or the Serbian/Croatian conflict our own. Correct? And you

3 answered something which the interpreter didn't catch. What is your

4 answer, please?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it is correct.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN:

8 Q. This document, sir, basically declares a revolution of the Muslim

9 people, does it not, revolting against the legally established

10 authorities?

11 A. That is not correct.

12 Q. Doesn't it say that you're not going to follow the law and respond

13 to a legally declared mobilisation from the government of the SFRY?

14 A. At that time there was no Yugoslav People's Army already, as it

15 had existed up until that period, since it did not have a supreme

16 commander, and in view of the fact that the agreement on the status of the

17 former Yugoslavia could not be formed. War was already raging in the area

18 of the Republic of Croatia. Volunteers went from the region of Kljuc, and

19 they would come back and disturb the population in the municipality of

20 Kljuc, and these were the reasons why we addressed the public and said

21 that we did not wish to push Bosniaks into such a war.

22 Q. You were advising Bosniaks to violate the law, weren't you?

23 A. At that time already, as far as a joint Yugoslav army was

24 concerned, an army of Yugoslavia, it wasn't functioning at that time.

25 Q. When you say there was no supreme commander, what do you mean?

1 A. I mean that there was chaos in the ranks of the Yugoslav People's

2 Army because of the very fact that there was a war in Croatia.

3 Q. Why do you say there was no supreme commander? There was, wasn't

4 there?

5 A. There was one, but he didn't have any jurisdiction over the army,

6 any powers over the army.

7 Q. Who would that have been?

8 A. According to the constitution, it should have been the Presidency

9 of Yugoslavia.

10 Q. And why do you say the Presidency of Yugoslavia had no control

11 over the army?

12 A. It did not.

13 Q. Why do you say that?

14 A. I say that because volunteers from the municipality of Kljuc went

15 to the front in Croatia. This was not the policy of the former Yugoslavia

16 or of the Yugoslav People's Army.

17 Q. All right. I'm finished with that document. I'd like you to look

18 at P860, please. Now, this again, sir, is a document that is authored by

19 you, dated 21 September 1991, is it not?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. And it's a document basically issued by the town board of the SDA,

22 over your signature; right?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Now, there was -- there were multiparty elections held in Kljuc,

25 and the SDS won the majority of seats in the Municipal Assembly; correct?

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And what you're saying here, sir, is it not, that the Municipal

3 Assembly of Kljuc is voting to take certain steps that you don't agree

4 with, and that if they continue to take these steps that you don't agree

5 with, then you'll split off and form your own Muslim commune; correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. So you lost the election, but if things don't go your way, then

8 you'll go on your own; in other words, you're not paying any attention to

9 democratic principles and following the will of the majority, are you?

10 A. We're talking about one issue here, and this public statement

11 arises from that issue, was issued because of that, and that's obvious

12 from item 4. So the SDS alone, without an Assembly session, agreed to

13 join the municipality of Kljuc to the Banja Luka-Krajina Autonomous

14 Region, and this meant that it was a question of secession from the

15 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the creation of Greater Serbia.

16 Q. Well, there were actually at least a couple of incidents, sir,

17 where you took this position. One was you had asked for an investigation

18 into, I think, the issuance of construction permits and had made the

19 pronouncement that if the majority did not go along with your demand in

20 that regard that you would leave the assembly and form your own commune.

21 And then when the majority wanted to join the autonomous district of

22 Krajina, you made the announcement that if they didn't go along with what

23 you wanted in the minority, that you would leave the assembly and form

24 your own commune. In other words, what you were saying, sir, wasn't it,

25 that we lost the election, we won't accept what the majority wants, we'll

1 form our own commune, we won't accept a democratic government in Kljuc;

2 right?

3 A. When we're talking about the vital interests of the citizens of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina regarding whether they should remain in the

5 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the Serbs, on the other hand, who

6 wished to join the former Yugoslavia, that's how it is. So we issued this

7 statement in that context, making it known that we still wish to be

8 committed citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 Q. Well, what you did was announce that you were engaging in a revolt

10 against the duly elected government, didn't you?

11 A. That is your interpretation. My interpretation is that we wanted

12 the following: If there was no agreement on vital interests, then we

13 wanted to have a new municipality established, and that in that context we

14 wished to have a peaceful region and peaceful cooperation. This was our

15 objective. As far as the municipality of Bosanski Kljuc is concerned,

16 this never actually materialised. It was just a political step to make an

17 attempt to get some sense into the other side and that they shouldn't do

18 what they wanted to do, and that is to join the municipality of Kljuc to

19 the region of Banja Luka and then join it to Yugoslavia.

20 Q. All right. We're going to talk about that now. I'm through with

21 that document. On page 41 of the transcript from last week, speaking

22 about the Autonomous Region of Krajina, you were asked this question:

23 "You, as a Muslim in a municipality that was taken into this new

24 separatist commune, how was that, did you think, going to affect you

25 personally as a Muslim, if at all?" Your answer, sir, was, and I'll give

1 you part of your answer: "This new para-state did not guarantee that the

2 Muslims would enjoy all of their rights as citizens, and for that reason

3 we did not want to accept to remain part of the Autonomous Region." That

4 was your answer, was it not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I take it if the rights of Muslims as citizens were

7 guaranteed, then you would not have any objection to joining the

8 Autonomous Region of Krajina. That follows, does it not?

9 A. We felt that the best solution for all the peoples was to stay in

10 the former Yugoslavia. This is something that we were in favour of,

11 particularly the Yugoslavia which would include Serbia and Croatia. We

12 then felt, in that case, that the interests of Bosniaks would not be

13 jeopardised, since the war broke out in Croatia, and we didn't have any

14 interests in remaining in the rump Yugoslavia, where as a people we would

15 be a minority and our rights would be jeopardised.

16 Q. Well, I'm going to talk to you about that and then I'll come back

17 to my question, which you have not answered. You say that you were in

18 favour of remaining within Yugoslavia as long as Croatia also remained

19 within Yugoslavia. Is that what you just told us?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. And yet when Yugoslavia, through the JNA, was trying to prevent

22 the secession of Croatia, you issued a proclamation to the residents of

23 Yugoslavia in your community who were Muslim, that they shouldn't go

24 assist in that. Now, what is it? Did you want Croatia to be separate or

25 not?

1 A. The Yugoslav People's Army never helped for Croatia to remain

2 within Yugoslavia. Quite the contrary; it helped in the forming of

3 Greater Serbia.

4 Q. Okay. I want to go back to my prior question. What you said last

5 week in your answer regarding the Autonomous Region of Krajina was this:

6 "This new para-state did not guarantee that the Muslims would enjoy all

7 of their rights as citizens." My question to you was this: If the

8 Autonomous Region of Krajina had guaranteed that the Muslims would enjoy

9 all of their rights as citizens, then you would not have been opposed;

10 correct?

11 A. I don't know that. I cannot give you an answer to something that

12 would happen if something else were to happen.

13 Q. Well, you were asked by the Prosecutor, and you sat here -- not

14 here, in another courtroom, under oath, and told these Judges that the

15 reason you were opposed to joining the Autonomous Region of Krajina was

16 that it did not guarantee that Muslims would enjoy all of their rights as

17 citizens. Now, that's what you said to these Judges, and doesn't that

18 mean that if it had guaranteed all of those rights, you would not have

19 opposed it?

20 A. Probably not, had Croatia remained within Yugoslavia.

21 Q. Well, when you were asked that question last week, you didn't say

22 anything about Croatia remaining in Yugoslavia, did you? You just said

23 your problem was that it didn't guarantee that Muslims would enjoy the

24 rights as citizens.

25 A. That is correct, but I had the general situation in mind in

1 relation to the settlement of the status of the former Yugoslavia, because

2 this is the reason why -- this status is the reason why war broke out in

3 the area of the former Yugoslavia.

4 Q. Well, you may have had it in mind, sir, but you didn't tell these

5 Judges that, did you?

6 A. Nobody asked me.

7 Q. Really. Question: "You as a Muslim in a municipality that was

8 taken into this new separatist commune, how was that, did you think, going

9 to affect you personally as a Muslim, if at all?" Answer: "This new

10 para-state did not guarantee that the Muslims would enjoy all of their

11 rights as citizens." You were definitely asked, and that was the answer

12 you gave, wasn't it?

13 MS. KORNER: This is becoming argument. Your Honours saw the

14 question and heard the answer.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I will.

18 Q. I'd like you to look at Exhibit P80, please. Sir, what you have

19 before you now is the Statute of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and I

20 want to direct your attention to Article 4 thereof. And it reads as

21 follows, does it not: "In carrying out work from the jurisdiction of the

22 Autonomous Region of Krajina, all nations and nationalities in the

23 Autonomous Region of Krajina shall be equal in their rights and duties,

24 without distinction as to race, sex, birth, language, nationality,

25 religion, political or other beliefs, education, social background,

1 wealth, or any other personal qualities." Correct?

2 A. That's what it says.

3 Q. So the constitution of the Autonomous Region of Krajina did in

4 fact guarantee your rights as citizens, didn't it?

5 A. That is possible. I was not familiar with the Statute.

6 Q. How on earth could you have been so opposed to it if you didn't

7 even know what it said?

8 A. We could because we saw what happened in the Republic of Croatia

9 with the Krajinas, that this caused the war, and the idea was for Serbs to

10 join together and to form -- to join Serbia and to form Greater Serbia.

11 Q. Now, I want to go back to your answer on page 41 to that same

12 question we've been talking about. I now want to refer to the first part

13 of your answer. The question, I'll remind you again, was: "You, as a

14 Muslim in a municipality that was taken into this new separatist commune,

15 how was that, did you think, going to affect you personally as a Muslim,

16 if at all?" Your answer was this, sir: "Since a referendum of the

17 Serbian people was held and that they came out in favour of staying within

18 Yugoslavia," and then you went on to say: "This new para-state did not

19 guarantee that the Muslims would enjoy all their rights ..." That's

20 another answer you just kind of made up because you thought it sounded

21 good, didn't you?

22 A. I didn't make anything up. A referendum was held, and all Serbs

23 came out in favour of remaining within the state of Yugoslavia.

24 Q. Yes, but you were being asked why you were opposed to joining the

25 Autonomous Region of Krajina, which was created in September of 1991 and

1 which was a proposal that was made within Kljuc in September of 1991, and

2 you said one of those reasons that you didn't want to join it was because

3 of the referendum of the Serb people which was held in November of 1991,

4 wasn't it?

5 A. As far as the dates are concerned, it was a long time ago, so I

6 cannot say all the dates with precision. But what I said is true.

7 Q. So you were just making up reasons that sounded good, without

8 regard to the facts, just to try to make the Judges feel like you were

9 telling them something important.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You can leave the last part out, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to -- page 48 of your testimony, sir, you

12 were talking about -- you were asked this question, line 20. In essence,

13 the question was: "Were you still able before May to receive broadcasts

14 from Sarajevo?" And your answer was this: "As far as broadcasts are

15 concerned, sometime in April we were no longer able to receive Sarajevo as

16 far as the media were concerned."

17 Q. That was your answer; correct?

18 A. That's right. As far as television and newspapers are concerned,

19 we did not have the possibility of watching or reading the papers from ...

20 Q. Sir, I'm only talking about television. I'm not talking about

21 papers. It's your testimony that you couldn't get television from

22 Sarajevo; correct?

23 A. I said both television, but also the press. We were not able to

24 buy papers at news stands.

25 Q. Could you be shown document P898, please. Sir, we've -- the

1 Judges have seen this document before. What I want to do is direct your

2 attention to paragraph 3, "situation in the territory," and very near the

3 end of that paragraph there is -- there is a paragraph which begins with

4 the language: "The TV repeater on the Osljak relay station." Let me know

5 when you find that.

6 A. I've found it.

7 Q. It says: "The TV repeater on the Osljak relay station in the

8 village of Ramici was sabotaged, and as a result there is no TV signal

9 reception in the Kljuc area. The sabotage was carried out by Muslim

10 extremists in response to the capture of the transmitter on Mount Vlasic.

11 Do you know anything about this? Do you know if that's true?

12 A. I've heard about this.

13 Q. Do you know if it's true? Do you know if that's the case, that

14 the repeater was damaged by Muslim extremists?

15 A. I heard that a man from Ramici had been arrested, but I did not --

16 I was not familiar with any of the details.

17 Q. Can you tell us how it was, in view of what you have said about

18 being able to watch Sarajevo television -- well, first of all, you know

19 who Muhamed Filipovic was, the brother of Omer, don't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How is it that Muhamed Filipovic was able to watch the first

22 programme of Sarajevo television --

23 MS. KORNER: I object to that question.

24 MR. ACKERMAN:

25 Q. -- up until the time he was arrested?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: On what basis?

2 MS. KORNER: On the basis that it maybe testimony of another

3 witness but pure comment. He can't put to him what Muhamed Filipovic says

4 he was able to do.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I certainly can.

6 MS. KORNER: No, you can't.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER: It's improper questioning, Your Honour, to say how is

10 it to a witness, that Mr. Filipovic says that he was able to watch

11 television. How is that a proper question? What is the witness supposed

12 to say?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness is supposed to explain how, according to

14 him, he couldn't watch -- follow Sarajevo TV, while it's being put to him

15 that others living in the same village could.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what's being put to him is what the

17 testimony of another witness may or may not have been. What is this

18 witness supposed to say? Mr. Filipovic must have been wrong. It's pure

19 comment. It's comment, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't see it that way, Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER: All right.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN:

24 Q. Do you know how it is that Mr. Filipovic was able to watch the

25 Sarajevo programme up until his arrest?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: According to him.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: According to him, yes.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'd like a quotation, please.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay.

5 MS. KORNER: I'd like the exact quotation of what Mr. Filipovic is

6 alleged to have said.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You're right.

8 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, I maintain the objection, because in

9 my view that's an improbable question.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, among other things, it comes under

12 Ms. Korner's insistence that I always put my case to the witness and I'm

13 doing that.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the way to put a case is not by saying

15 what a witness may or may not have said. You can put a fact, but you

16 cannot put it in the form of this is what another witness may have said,

17 because what you're inviting this witness to do is to comment. That is

18 standard practice.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm on page 10044, cross-examined by Mr. Zecevic:

20 "In any case, you were able to watch Sarajevo television first channel?"

21 Answer: "While I was at home until I was imprisoned, I could watch it,

22 but there was some interference and there was often an Austrian channel

23 interfering." "But you watched Sarajevo first channel, the first

24 programme with Sarajevo television you watched?" Answer: "When I was at

25 home, when there was no interference with the Austrian programme, yes."

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And my question to you: Could you watch Sarajevo

2 TV, first channel at any time prior to your arrest but proximate to your

3 arrest?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From about mid-April until the end

5 of May, you couldn't watch the programme, because the repeater on Mount

6 Kozara had been turned towards Belgrade, and the only programme you could

7 follow was that the TV Belgrade and that of TV Banja Luka. So no, I

8 couldn't. Whether anyone else could follow that programme, I wouldn't

9 know.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN:

12 Q. In your testimony last week, page 48, line 6, Ms. Korner was

13 asking you about the positioning of the Knin Corps at Laniste and a vote

14 that was taken in favour of that. And then you were asked how it made you

15 feel, as Bosniaks. And your answer, sir, on line 6 was this: "We felt

16 unsafe, as earlier we had seen groups arriving, groups of volunteers from

17 the front in Croatia, who were not under anybody's control." What do you

18 mean, they were not under anybody's control?

19 A. Well, an indication of them being under no one's control was what

20 they did around the town of Kljuc and the other villages. They fired

21 shots from firearms on a daily basis, and that meant that they were under

22 no one's control, because had they been under someone's control, they

23 probably wouldn't have done anything like that. Their aim was to

24 intimidate people.

25 Q. In your testimony at page 50, you were talking about attempts by

1 individuals among the Muslim population to procure weapons because of the

2 security situation. You indicated that you personally had a pistol. Then

3 you were asked this question: "And when you say that there were attempts

4 by individuals to procure weapons, what do you mean by that?" Answer:

5 "The very closeness of the front in Croatia and the opening of a front at

6 Kupres, and especially the return of combatants from those fronts

7 instilled fear and jeopardised the security, and people fearing this armed

8 themselves by purchasing weapons from certain people who came to the

9 area."

10 Do you recall that answer?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. And isn't it the case that the very closeness of the front in

13 Croatia and the attitude of the Muslim people regarding participating in

14 what was going on in Croatia instilled fear in the Serb population of

15 Kljuc, based upon their memories of what happened during World War II and

16 their fears of a rebirth of a Muslim/Croat coalition? Isn't that true?

17 A. That's not true, because there was no coalition on our part. As

18 far as war was concerned, the Bosniaks simply wanted no part in it, in the

19 war in Croatia, on the Croatian front.

20 Q. Well, what in fact you said was you weren't going to fight against

21 Croats, wasn't it?

22 A. We had no intention of fighting anyone, including Croats, because

23 people from the municipal area did go to the front, and they fought Croats

24 there.

25 Q. In Kljuc -- when do you want to break, Your Honour?

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Half past -- [Microphone not activated]

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry. I'm way off.

3 Q. In Kljuc, the Muslims formed the Patriotic League, did they not?

4 A. That's not true. What did happen is that the TO was formed, a TO

5 unit was formed by the commander of the army staff of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina.

7 Q. So there was no Patriotic League operating in Kljuc?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You were not part of any Patriotic League operating in Kljuc?

10 A. I was only a member of the staff for political relations.

11 Q. That was the Crisis Staff, was it not?

12 A. It was a TO staff.

13 Q. There was also a Crisis Staff formed, though, was there not?

14 A. There should have been one, but this never materialised, for the

15 simple reason that it wasn't possible.

16 Q. You were asked -- page 51 of the transcript, line 23, you were

17 asked: "Did you, the Bosniaks, form any kind of a Crisis Staff?" Answer:

18 "Yes." Question: "At what stage?" Answer: "There was an attempt to

19 form such a staff in mid-May." Question: "And who was the head of the

20 staff?" Answer: "In the -- at first it should have been Mr. Filipovic."

21 So your answer is that there was an attempt to do this in mid-May,

22 I take it. Is that true?

23 A. That's true.

24 Q. Do you know who Sefer Halilovic is?

25 A. Yes, I do.

1 Q. Do you know that he headed an organisation called the Patriotic

2 League?

3 A. I wouldn't know.

4 Q. I want to read to you from the testimony of Muhamed Filipovic and

5 ask you whether this is true or not, page 9372, on questioning by

6 Ms. Korner?

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I object. All he's being asked to do is

8 comment on another witness's testimony. It's an improper form of

9 questioning.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Here --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Here you are right, Ms. Korner.

13 Put the question what facts you want him to confirm or deny.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll do that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

16 MR. ACKERMAN:

17 Q. During Mr. Filipovic's direct testimony, sir --

18 MS. KORNER: I object.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Put the fact.

20 MS. KORNER: It is perfectly -- Mr. Ackerman is an experienced

21 enough counsel merely to put a fact that he wishes the witness to agree or

22 disagree with. It is unnecessary to state that it comes from any other

23 witness's testimony. It is a form of speech-making and comment.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: In the other instance, I allowed the question,

25 Mr. Ackerman, because the position was that you were putting to the

1 witness that two persons in the same city, in the same location, could

2 possibly not be receiving the same TV. Now it's different. Now you're

3 going to put a fact, just put that fact, without reference to any

4 particular witness. And then if it is necessary to refer to the witness,

5 I will let you do it, but not in the first place.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand, Your Honour.

7 Q. Sir, wasn't it a fact that in the Kljuc municipality, the

8 Patriotic League of the Kljuc municipality was created, that in 1991 it

9 had 50 members, that later on the number of members escalated to somewhere

10 around 100 to 150, and that it was different from the Territorial Defence?

11 Is that true?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, Mr. Egrlic, it's being put to you

13 that in the Kljuc municipality there was indeed a Patriotic League which

14 was set up in 1991, initially having 50 members, later increasing to

15 around 100 to 150, and that this was an entity which was substantially

16 different from what you have referred to as the Territorial Defence. If

17 you are aware of this, if you agree with this, just say yes; if you don't

18 agree with it, just say no. We're talking of the municipality and not the

19 town.

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: He doesn't agree, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN:

23 Q. So if Mr. Filipovic testified that that was the case, you disagree

24 with his testimony?

25 A. No.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean? Yes or no? You disagree or you

2 don't disagree?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't agree that there was a

4 Patriotic League. What I'm saying is that only Territorial Defence

5 existed.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Whoever would maintain that there was a Patriotic

7 League, you wouldn't agree with him?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

9 MR. ACKERMAN:

10 Q. Do you agree that there was a Crisis Staff that was formed during

11 the second half of 1991 --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: He's testified about that already.

13 MR. ACKERMAN:

14 Q. -- And that --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: He's testified about that, and you've just asked him

16 a couple of questions. You were actually reading from his own testimony.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: He said it was formed in May of 1992 and they could

18 never meet. It's a different question.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, this is a different one.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Go ahead.

22 MR. ACKERMAN:

23 Q. Do you agree that there was a Crisis Staff formed during the

24 second half of 1991, of which you were a member?

25 A. That's not correct.

1 Q. And so I take it that if Muhamed Filipovic --

2 MS. KORNER: No. I'm sorry, Your Honour. This has got to stop.

3 He's deliberately flouting Your Honour's ruling.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exactly. You're right, Ms. Korner. I will

5 not let you --

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I take the gravest possible exception.

7 It's not the first time it has happened. It's not a proper way to

8 cross-examine.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. She is right.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you're putting to the witness the name of

12 another witness, basically to show him that some other witness has stated

13 exactly the opposite of what he is stating, when you don't need to reveal

14 the name of the other witness. You just say: I put it to you that there

15 have been other witnesses that have -- that have stated that there was a

16 Crisis Staff. Do you agree or you don't agree? And he's already told you

17 that he doesn't agree that there was a Crisis Staff set up in the second

18 half of 1991. So the matter stands there. I mean, one witness may have

19 stated the opposite. He's stating exactly the opposite.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's also the objection of Ms. Korner is being

22 sustained for another reason, that it's not right that you present the

23 witness with information leading him to understand that another witness

24 also coming from the political arena gives a completely different story to

25 his with regard to some details at least.

1 MR. ACKERMAN:

2 Q. I'd like you to look at Exhibit P1010, 1010, please. While we're

3 waiting for that, sir, it was your position with regard to the Crisis

4 Staff that because it wasn't formed until May and there were roadblocks in

5 May, that you were never able to meet; correct? I'm sorry. Did you hear

6 my question just now?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so.

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

10 A. That's correct.

11 MR. ACKERMAN:

12 Q. Now, the document you have before you, sir, is a report, and I'm

13 only interested in having you look at the first paragraph of that, which

14 talks about the Crisis Staff of the SDS in Kljuc, which was established on

15 23 December 1991 and then became the Crisis Staff of the Kljuc Municipal

16 Assembly on 14 May 1992. Do you agree with those dates?

17 A. Well, probably, yes, but I don't know the dates precisely, so I

18 can't say anything concerning the dates.

19 Q. All right. I'm finished with that document now.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Just so it's clear. I

21 understood that Mr. Egrlic was talking about the Bosniak Crisis Staff, and

22 that's what he was being asked about, and this document refers to the SDS

23 Crisis Staff.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. It was a totally different question. I was

25 asking about the SDS Crisis Staff and the municipal Crisis Staff formed by

1 the Serbian people, on a completely different tack.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a report of the Crisis Staff

3 of the SDS.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Sir, I'm finished with that document. You may give

5 it back.

6 Q. Page 53 of last week's transcript, you were asked if you had heard

7 about a Crisis Staff in Banja Luka, and you said that you did. You were

8 asked when you first heard of that Crisis Staff, and you said you heard

9 about it for the first time sometime in April of 1992. And you said that

10 the head of that Crisis Staff, you heard, was Mr. Brdjanin. Correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Can you recall who it was you heard that from, that there was such

13 a Crisis Staff and that Mr. Brdjanin was the head of it, in April of 1992?

14 A. I don't know exactly who I heard this from, but I did hear it.

15 Q. Do you know that the Crisis Staff that Mr. Brdjanin was the

16 president of was not even formed until May of 1992?

17 A. No, I don't know the date of the establishment of the Crisis

18 Staff.

19 Q. Well, you told the Judges that you heard about it in April and

20 that Mr. Brdjanin was the president, didn't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And will you concede that couldn't have been true if that Crisis

23 Staff wasn't started until May of 1992?

24 A. As far as the date is concerned, it's very difficult now, after

25 ten years, to be clear about the dates when certain things were happening.

1 Q. You were then asked this question: "Were you aware of any

2 connections before your arrest at the end of May between that Crisis Staff

3 in Banja Luka, headed by Mr. Brdjanin, and the Crisis Staff in Kljuc, the

4 SDS Crisis Staff?" Do you remember that question?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And your answer was: "I didn't hear anything in particular from

7 the document which I received by accident except from the document I

8 received by accident." You're talking about that telex document, aren't

9 you?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. I'd like you to be shown a couple of documents: P168 and again

12 P22. Now, sir, I show you P168 first just to give you an assurance that

13 the Autonomous Region of Krajina's Crisis Staff or war staff was created

14 by Nikola Erceg on 5th May 1992. Do you see that?

15 A. I see that.

16 Q. Now, this document that you say showed a connection between the

17 Crisis Staff in Banja Luka, headed by Mr. Brdjanin, and the Crisis Staff

18 in Kljuc, this document P22, is dated 29 October 1991, six months before

19 there was any Crisis Staff headed by Mr. Brdjanin; correct?

20 A. It is correct, but this document, as far as the municipal Crisis

21 Staff is concerned, was implemented fully, which means that this Crisis

22 Staff accepted it as its own.

23 Q. We just spent a lot of time, an hour or so ago, going through that

24 document, and you told us you didn't even know if large parts of it had

25 been implemented, and now you're saying it was implemented fully.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already explained that before, Mr. Ackerman.

2 Let's move to the next question.

3 MR. ACKERMAN:

4 Q. When you told the Judges that this fax that you got showed a

5 connection between the Crisis Staff in Banja Luka, headed by Mr. Brdjanin,

6 and the Crisis Staff in Kljuc, that was another one of those things you

7 just made up, wasn't it?

8 A. That is not true. This document was a task for the Kljuc SDS, a

9 task that was to be implemented.

10 Q. But it doesn't come from any ARK Crisis Staff headed by

11 Mr. Brdjanin, does it, because there wasn't one then?

12 A. But this document was adopted as the objective, and the SDS Crisis

13 Staff in Kljuc was implementing it.

14 Q. I'm going to go to something different now. In your testimony, on

15 page 55 --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, actually, this is kind of a long --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll stop here.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: -- process here. Maybe it's a good idea to break

19 now.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll break for 25 minutes.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Now, let me say, in connection with when I might

22 finish, I can tell you that I'm on page 7 of 10 pages of notes, which will

23 become about 12 pages of notes. I think maybe about another hour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's another hour, I don't --

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think I've got some re-examination, so

1 I think the witness will have to come back briefly tomorrow.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

3 So 25 minutes, please.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Sir, during your testimony last week, page 55, line 11, you were

9 asked the following question: "Do you remember hearing any announcement

10 on the radio or on television or elsewhere about weapons having to be

11 surrendered?" Answer: "I heard this announcement on Radio Kljuc."

12 Question: "And who was being ordered to surrender their weapons?" Answer:

13 "The announcement applied to Bosniaks."

14 I'd like you first to look at Exhibit P922. And I'd like you to

15 look at this, sir. It's from Radio Kljuc. I want to know if this is the

16 announcement that you were referring to when you gave that answer.

17 A. I'm seeing this for the first time. This pertains to the late

18 Mr. Omer Filipovic. He was arrested on the 28th of May, in the morning

19 hours.

20 Q. Do you remember the question that I asked you?

21 A. Yes. I responded that I don't know this announcement. There was

22 a different announcement on Radio Kljuc about handing over weapons.

23 Q. All right. So this is not the one you were referring to. This is

24 a different announcement about --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: He couldn't be referring to it, because he's saying

1 this is the first time he has come across it, so he couldn't have referred

2 to it in his testimony.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, it would be one thing to come

4 across the written form and another to hear it on the radio. My question

5 was: Is this what he heard on the radio? And he says no, that this isn't

6 it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

8 MR. ACKERMAN:

9 Q. Would you look, then, at P196, sir. Now, this document, sir,

10 comes from the Kljuc municipality Crisis Staff, and I'll refer you to

11 paragraph 1. It says:

12 "Citizens who are in possession of weapons procured illegally are

13 here asked to surrender them between 1200 and 1400 hours today at the

14 Kljuc Public Security Station or the nearest police station point."

15 Might it have been a report of this decision of the Crisis Staff

16 that you heard on the radio?

17 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I've lost -- where is that

18 part?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: It's paragraph 1: "Citizens who are in possession

20 of weapons ..."

21 JUDGE AGIUS: "... procured illegally are here asked to surrender

22 them between 1200 hours and 1400 hours today at the Kljuc Public Security

23 Station."

24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think that's P196.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: 916

1 MS. KORNER: Sorry. It's got 196 on the --

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry.

3 Q. Might it be the case that it is the radio report of this order was

4 what you heard on the radio about weapons surrender?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, just before he answers, may I just

6 point out that according to the transcript, first time you referred this

7 document to be produced it was referred to in the transcript as P196, and

8 it should be 916.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. My mistake, obviously.

10 Q. All right, sir. Can you answer the question?

11 A. I'm not familiar with this document. It bears the date the 28th

12 of May. I had heard something around the 15th about the ultimatum being

13 set.

14 Q. All right. Then could you please be shown P167. And this is a

15 decision that comes from the Secretariat for National Defence, signed by

16 Colonel Sajic, and paragraph -- it's paragraph 5 of that decision that I'm

17 interested in having you look at. It's dated 4 May of 1992. And that

18 paragraph reads:

19 "All paramilitary formations and individuals in possession of

20 illegal weapons and ammunition are asked to surrender those weapons and

21 ammunition immediately, or not later than 1500 hours on 11 May 1992, to

22 the municipal TO headquarters or the nearest public security station.

23 Once this deadline has expired, the responsible bodies shall carry out the

24 search and confiscation of weapons and ammunition and shall apply the most

25 appropriate sanctions."

1 Do you think it might have been a report about this decision that

2 you heard on Radio Kljuc?

3 A. No. It was a Crisis Staff decision. This is a decision, as far

4 as I can see, by the military leadership of the then Republika Srpska, and

5 I heard on Radio Kljuc the decision by the Crisis Staff of the

6 municipality of Kljuc, the Serb Crisis Staff.

7 Q. The government of Republika Srpska, in that paragraph, was

8 ordering that all persons illegally in possession of weapons should

9 surrender them, not just Bosniaks; correct?

10 A. This pertains only to Bosniaks, because I didn't hear anywhere

11 that they went to take weapons by force from the Serbs.

12 Q. Show me in paragraph 5 where it's limited to Bosniaks. What

13 language in paragraph 5 says it's limited to Bosniaks? Can you see it?

14 A. I'm talking about what happened and not what it says.

15 Q. It doesn't say that in paragraph 5, does it?

16 A. No, it doesn't.

17 Q. So if the people in Kljuc did something different, they were

18 violating this order, weren't they, this decision?

19 A. They were not violating it, because this is a decision by the then

20 illegal Republika Srpska of the Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time.

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina was an internationally recognised state, without

22 Republika Srpska.

23 Q. Well, was the illegal Serbian Crisis Staff in Kljuc violating the

24 order of the illegal Republika Srpska government by confiscating weapons

25 only from Bosniaks? That was my question. We can argue all day about

1 what was legal and illegal, and I'm not going to do that with you.

2 A. What is the question?

3 Q. I'm not going to ask it. I'll withdraw it.

4 I'm through with all those documents now.

5 During your testimony last week, page 56, line 2, you were asked

6 this question: "Did there come a time when you did hand over your

7 weapon?" Answer: "I handed over my weapon on the 27th of May."

8 JUDGE AGIUS: He corrected that eventually, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN:

10 Q. My question is: Why did you say that to the Judges?

11 A. It was simply a confusion about the dates. It wasn't the 27th,

12 but it was the 28th. I said that that happened after my self-inflicted

13 injury.

14 Q. There are two facts in that answer. The first one is: I handed

15 over my weapon. The second is that it was on the 27th of May. Both of

16 them are wrong, aren't they?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him make it clear. What's being suggested to

18 you is that you made two mistakes in one statement, namely, when you said

19 that you surrendered the weapon on the 27th, but in reality, later on you

20 correct yourself and said that you had surrendered it on the 28th. And

21 secondly, that while you still say that you surrendered it, in real fact

22 you later also explained that it was Omer Filipovic that surrendered it

23 after you had inflicted the -- you had wounded yourself accidentally. So

24 what's being asked of you is to explain why in one simple sentence you

25 made two mistakes.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was simply a slip. On the 28th

2 of May, I injured myself, in the morning, and the gun, the pistol,

3 remained at the place where I injured myself. And this pistol was then

4 handed over by Omer Filipovic. I don't know on what day.

5 MR. ACKERMAN:

6 Q. You spoke in your testimony about being questioned, interrogated,

7 in Stara Gradiska, and later at Manjaca, by a captain who you said was

8 called Zenga. Do you remember that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Do you know the origin and the meaning of the name Zenga?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. What is it?

13 A. It's an abbreviation for Zbor Narodne Garde, National Guards

14 Corps.

15 Q. Of Croatia; right?

16 A. Yes, Croatia.

17 Q. And was this captain a Croat?

18 A. The captain was a Serb. I don't know what he was, but I assume

19 that he was a Serb.

20 Q. The name Zenga might indicate that he was not a Serb but a Croat,

21 though, mightn't it?

22 A. It would not necessarily indicate that, because the other guards

23 also used nicknames to shield themselves. There was a guard whose

24 nickname was Fadil, but he was a Serb.

25 Q. Once you got to Manjaca, you talked about the guards there being

1 police. Were they regular police or were they military police, or do you

2 not know?

3 A. I think it was the military police.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Why do you think so?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they had camouflage

6 uniforms, just like the soldiers.

7 MR. ACKERMAN:

8 Q. I'd like you now to look at P1113. Now, you told us last week

9 that this was a statement that was created as a result of interrogations

10 that were going on of you in Manjaca; correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And the person who was questioning you you said was making notes

13 during the course of the questioning. Is that true?

14 A. That's true.

15 Q. Now, if you look at the first page, you said that everything there

16 was true and correct until we got down to a sentence that began and

17 continued as follows:

18 "Those employed in the Kljuc TO and those from the Kljuc SJB who

19 did not sign the declaration of loyalty to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina were supposed to join the staff command. He," and I

21 assume that's you, "emphasised that he personally did not talk to these

22 people, but assumed that they would probably have consented in order to

23 secure the subsistence of their families, since they had no jobs."

24 When asked who replaced Suad Mesic as the person responsible for

25 medical matters in the Bosanski Kljuc TO staff, he replied that it was

1 most likely to be Dr. Emir Kapetanovic."

2 Now, I think you told us that you didn't say any of those things

3 and that those things were not true. Am I right about that?

4 A. I don't understand the question.

5 Q. The question is: The things that I just read out to you, I think

6 you told us yesterday that you did not say those things and that those

7 things were not true.

8 A. It's true that I said that a Crisis Staff was formed and that the

9 commander of the Crisis Staff of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

10 appointed the late Omer Filipovic as the commander of the Kljuc TO.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not -- you're not answering the question.

12 Last Friday, Ms. Korner handed you this document, which purportedly is a

13 statement that was made by you, following a series of questions at the

14 Kljuc police station. Ms. Korner went through that document, or

15 substantial parts of that document, paragraph by paragraph, and you were

16 asked at the time two questions. This document says the following, that

17 you said the following. Did you actually state this to the interrogator?

18 And if you did, was it true or not? And as far as this particular

19 paragraph that was read out to you by Mr. Ackerman is concerned, it's

20 being put to you that on Friday you said that you never made this part of

21 the statement to the investigator or to the interviewer and that in any

22 case it wasn't true, what's contained in there is not true. And the same

23 question, more or less, is being repeated now at this time from

24 Mr. Ackerman. Do you confirm your position?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I confirm it and I explain it by

1 saying that I said who was appointed as the commander of the TO staff.

2 MR. ACKERMAN:

3 Q. Sir, I think we're having a monumental failure of communication

4 here. Do you see the sentence that begins with: "Those employed in the

5 Kljuc TO and those from the Kljuc SJB ..." Do you see that? It's up

6 above the Crisis Staff part that you're referring to.

7 A. I found it. I did not state that.

8 Q. Is it your position, then, that whoever it was that prepared this

9 note up until that point had accurately reported what you had said and

10 then just added this paragraph?

11 A. I think that that is correct.

12 Q. Now, if we go down to: "The Crisis Staff comprised Muhamed

13 Filipovic as leader, Asim Egrlic; Omer Filipovic, commissar; Ihsan

14 Zukanovic, training; Suad Mesic, health care; Ibrahim Egrlic, security;

15 Hamed Brkovic, courier; and Kemo Bender, and was disbanded immediately

16 before the formation of the Bosanski Kljuc TO."

17 I think you told us that that bit was not true and that you didn't

18 say it. Am I correct?

19 A. I've said that several times, that the Crisis Staff was to have

20 been formed, but it was basically never formed, and that this is not

21 correct.

22 Q. But wasn't it true that that Crisis Staff which you say was never

23 formed was to have Muhamed Filipovic as leader and you and these other

24 people as members?

25 A. What I said was that the Crisis Staff -- what is understood by the

1 Crisis Staff, is that it was to be composed of people who had been legally

2 elected to certain offices and who should have an official duty to form

3 part of the Crisis Staff.

4 Q. If you go, then, sir, after the part referring to the TO, there's

5 just a sentence sitting all by itself. It says: "He stated that the

6 village guards grew into platoons and companies." Do you see that?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Is it your position that there never was, within the Kljuc

9 municipality, a platoon or a company of the Muslim TO?

10 A. Up until the time that I was still there, no, there was nothing.

11 There were guards.

12 Q. Now, if you look at the next paragraph, it speaks of you going to

13 Zagreb. You in fact did go to Zagreb, didn't you?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And when was that?

16 A. I can't remember the date exactly, but it may have been in April

17 1992.

18 Q. And out of that trip, whether directly or indirectly, you in fact

19 acquired weapons, didn't you?

20 A. That's what it says here, but that's not true.

21 Q. Do you know what a Heckler is?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I want to make sure that this is being correctly

23 interpreted.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: H-e-c-k-l-e-r.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not in a position to know whether it's being

1 correctly interpreted.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: It may not be.

3 Q. In terms of a firearm, do you know of a firearm called a Heckler?

4 A. No, I know nothing about such a firearm.

5 Q. Do you know about a firearm called a Zagi?

6 A. I've heard about that weapon, but I don't know what it looks like.

7 Q. Is it true that you had two of these, one of which you gave to

8 Omer Filipovic and one of which you kept yourself?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You mean the Zagi?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

11 A. It is true that I had a pistol, and I did have permission to be in

12 possession of that pistol.

13 Q. Did you have two pistols, one of which you gave to Omer Filipovic?

14 A. I only had one.

15 Q. What was it you had two of in terms of weapons, one of which you

16 gave to Omer Filipovic?

17 A. The only thing I had was one pistol, and I didn't give it to

18 anyone. It remained with Omer Filipovic after I was wounded, and then

19 afterwards he handed it over.

20 Q. Did you ever serve in the Yugoslav army?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And didn't you learn while you were serving in the Yugoslav army

23 what a weapon called a Heckler was?

24 A. No. I had only signed for an M-48 rifle while I was in Mostar,

25 during my military service.

1 Q. Well, I must put to you the following proposition, sir: I put to

2 you that you had two Hecklers, one of which you gave to Omer Filipovic. Is

3 that true or not true?

4 A. Not true.

5 Q. Down near the bottom of what is the second page in English,

6 after -- there's a list of three persons: Omer Filipovic, Mumin Egrlic and

7 Ibrahim Egrlic. The following paragraph appears:

8 "In response to the question where he was prior to the shooting at

9 the police and the army, he stated that on 26 May 1992 he, attending a

10 meeting held at the cultural centre in Pudin Han."

11 Were you at the cultural centre in Pudin Han on 26 May 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, you've told us that the Crisis Staff couldn't meet because

14 there were travel restrictions and you couldn't travel. How is it you

15 were able to travel to Pudin Han?

16 A. I reached Pudin Han when the population from the village in which

17 I live had fled, and I reached Pudin Han through the woods.

18 Q. Now, other people reached Pudin Han to participate in this

19 meeting: Omer Filipovic, Amir Avdic, Nevzad Djeric, Velid Ticevic, Ale

20 Mujezinovic, Enes Salihovic, Fahrudin Cemal, Enes Sistak and perhaps

21 others. All those people were there at that time, were they not?

22 A. That may well have been that most of those people were indeed

23 there.

24 Q. And this was basically the executive board of the SDA, wasn't it?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And the truth is that you were able to travel and able to have

2 meetings and that you did have several meetings of both the SDA executive

3 board and the TO staff of which you were also a part; correct?

4 A. Until the 7th of May, yes, we could have regular meetings, but not

5 after that date, because roads were blocked and there were Serbian

6 checkpoints manned by Serbian police.

7 Q. Sir, I'd like the Prosecutor to supply you with your statement to

8 the Office of the Prosecutor of 13 March 2001, please. In this statement,

9 and it's page 4 of the English version, you're speaking of a document that

10 you had had in your possession that was lost when your home was burned,

11 and what you told the Prosecutor investigator was this:

12 "The document was a fax message. It was signed by Radoslav

13 Brdjanin as president of the Assembly of the Krajina region and it was

14 addressed to all the presidents of municipal Crisis Staff. My office was

15 next to Jovo Banjac. Our two offices were separated by a secretary's

16 office. I don't recall her name. She brought the fax message to me.

17 When I saw the document, I realised that it was not for me. I made a copy

18 of it and then gave the fax message to Banjac."

19 Now, this is the same document we've been talking about earlier,

20 the P22 document, the telex, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you described that document as you could remember two things

23 that came from the document; correct? You say to set up War Presidencies,

24 so replace non-Serb officials. Those were two things you could remember

25 at the time that had been in that document; right?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. I'd like you to now be handed P22. All right, sir. You

3 now have, in addition, this document, P22. What you told the Prosecutor's

4 investigator about this document was this:

5 "Stojan Zupljanin was chief of police for the whole ARK region. I

6 know that Zupljanin reported to Radoslav Brdjanin, who was the head of the

7 civilian authority. Unfortunately, I don't have any evidence to prove

8 this now. Before the war, I had a document that proved that Zupljanin was

9 subordinate to Brdjanin. I left the document at home. My home was the

10 first one to be burnt down during the war, and I lost all my possessions

11 along with that document."

12 Now, sir, show us, please, in this document the proof that

13 Zupljanin was subordinate to Brdjanin.

14 A. You can't tell from this document, but it is a well-known fact

15 that chief of the Security Services Centre cannot be an independent

16 figure. We know that he is subordinate to the civilian authorities.

17 Q. Well, isn't it true that he's subordinated to the head of MUP?

18 A. No, because when the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina was

19 proclaimed, all links were severed with the centre in Sarajevo, that is,

20 with the Ministry of the Interior there. He could only be --

21 Q. That is -- [Previous translation continues] ...

22 A. Yes, that is my belief.

23 Q. Are you saying that the head of the CSB in Banja Luka would not

24 have been responsible to the head of the Minister of the Interior of

25 Republika Srpska?

1 A. Not Serbian one. He was to answer to the Ministry of the Interior

2 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, with headquarters in Sarajevo.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You're talking at cross-purposes.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour, we are.

5 Q. The point is this, sir: When you spoke to the Office of the

6 Prosecutor in 2001, on 13 March, you told the investigator that this

7 document would prove that Zupljanin was subordinate to Brdjanin. Now you

8 say that there's nothing in the document that would prove that; correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct. The only thing this document contains is a

10 number of tasks to be carried out.

11 Q. And this document doesn't even mention the police, does it?

12 A. This document was taken over from the central office of the SDS in

13 Sarajevo.

14 Q. I'll ask you the question again. This document doesn't even

15 mention the police, does it?

16 A. No, it doesn't.

17 Q. And when you told Mr. Inayat of the Prosecutor's office, on 13

18 March 2001, that this document would prove that Zupljanin was subordinate

19 to Brdjanin, you just made that up, didn't you, because you thought the

20 document had been destroyed and you would never be confronted with it;

21 correct?

22 A. That's not correct. I based my allegation on what happened after

23 this document.

24 Q. That isn't what you said to Mr. Inayat. What you said to

25 Mr. Inayat was: "I had a document that proved that Zupljanin was

1 subordinate to Brdjanin." And that was not true, was it?

2 A. Yes, that's true. Well, the way these decisions were implemented,

3 at least.

4 Q. Look at, sir, the first paragraph of that document. It talks

5 about an order of the SDS Sarajevo, doesn't it?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. It says that order was made public at a meeting of all the

8 municipal presidents on 26 October 1991, at 1500 hours, in Banja Luka;

9 right?

10 A. Yes, that's what it says.

11 Q. And it was at a meeting that was chaired by Dr. Karadzic.

12 A. I did not attend that meeting. That's what this document says.

13 Q. And it's likely, is it not, that if it was a meeting of all the

14 municipal presidents, that Jovo Banjac was present?

15 A. Probably.

16 Q. And that Jovo Banjac would have known about this order of the SDS

17 in Sarajevo?

18 A. He must have known.

19 Q. All right. I'm finished with that, sir.

20 I'd like you to look at P1114. You've looked at this earlier

21 today. Ms. Korner was asking you about this document. This is the one

22 that you agreed contained your signature. You recall it; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At the very beginning, it says: "During May 1992 I attended a

25 meeting in Sanski Most." And you agreed that you had attended such a

1 meeting.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When was it? When in May was that meeting?

4 A. Perhaps between the 2nd and the 5th of May. I can't say

5 precisely.

6 Q. And you met there with leaders, basically, of Bosanski Most

7 municipality, Mr. Kurbegovic and Mr. Karabeg; correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. And the document says that the meeting had to do with the

10 possibility of cooperation between Sanski Most and Kljuc in the event that

11 it would become necessary, since they border each other; correct?

12 A. This was added. What we discussed was the general situation in

13 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. Yes. You said there was no possibility of cooperation because of

15 the roadblocks and so forth. Is that your position?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. So you travelled all the way to Sanski Most. I assume other

18 people went with you, at least Omer Filipovic. And you never talked about

19 the possibility of cooperating in the defence of your municipalities? It

20 never came up?

21 A. No. I never had an opportunity to discuss that.

22 Q. Kind of made it a wasted trip, didn't it?

23 A. It was not wasted. Our aim was to check the situation in that

24 area, in Sanski Most municipality, and to exchange information on events

25 in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, because all communication lines

1 were down and there was no communication to the government in Sarajevo.

2 Q. So you couldn't talk to Sanski Most by telephone?

3 A. No, we couldn't.

4 Q. Look at the last paragraph of this document, please. You told us

5 this morning this was correct. I just want to make sure that that's your

6 position. It says:

7 "It was already too late to return to my family, so I decided to

8 accept an offer to spend the night with a Amir Pobric. The following day

9 I accidentally wounded myself with a pistol and was taken to hospital

10 after I had first been to the SJB at about 0700 hours. I was taken from

11 the hospital to Gradiska."

12 Correct?

13 A. That's correct. First I came to the SJB, then to the hospital,

14 and then on to Gradiska.

15 Q. I'm through with those documents now, sir.

16 Sir, it's the case, isn't it, that the Bosnian municipality of

17 Kljuc was formed and announced prior to the formation of any Serbian

18 municipality of Kljuc; isn't that true?

19 A. That's not true. There was only an announcement for that

20 municipality to be established, but it was never formed, because there was

21 supposed to be a citizens' referendum, but as there were no conditions for

22 the referendum to be held, the municipality was never formed. So there

23 never was such a thing as Bosanski Kljuc municipality.

24 Q. So it's not true that the Assembly of the municipality of Bosanski

25 Kljuc met in Pudin Han?

1 A. No, that's not true. What did happen, on the 26th, part of the --

2 some of the members of the executive board met there, but Bosanski Kljuc

3 municipality never began to operate.

4 Q. Could you look, please, at Exhibit P870. Sir, this document is

5 dated January 30th, 1992. I think it's a radio announcement, and it

6 reports at the very beginning the following:

7 "At yesterday's session of the SDA and MBO, the formation of a new

8 municipality of Bosanski Kljuc was proclaimed, which does not accept the

9 unlawful and unconstitutional decisions of the Municipal Assembly

10 concerning the inclusion of this municipality into the Autonomous Region

11 of the Bosnian Krajina."

12 Now, this doesn't say there was a threat to proclaim the

13 municipality of Bosanski Kljuc; it says that the municipality was

14 proclaimed, doesn't it?

15 A. That's not true. If you try reading further down the passage at

16 the bottom of the page, it says that there would be a referendum on the

17 status of Bosanski Kljuc municipality.

18 Q. Well, it also says that "This is the first Muslim municipality in

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Its fate depends on the move of the partner, the

20 SDS. If there is no regionalisation on an ethnic basis, then there will

21 be no municipality of Bosanski Kljuc either."

22 In other words, they do what you want, as a minority, then you'll

23 abandon your new municipality of Bosanski Kljuc, kind of a blackmail;

24 right.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not an unknown phenomenon in politics,

1 Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN:

3 Q. Right?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: You're right, Your Honour.

5 A. This was a public announcement in which there was an opening to

6 establish Bosanski Kljuc municipality, and it was said that as soon as all

7 the conditions were met, a referendum, a citizens' referendum would be

8 held so the citizens could speak out on the issue. This referendum

9 however never took place, so Bosanski Kljuc municipality never came to be.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: How much longer do you think you'll take,

11 Mr. Ackerman?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm guessing 30 minutes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So you will regulate yourself knowing how much you

14 need for re-examination.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what we can hand to Your Honours now is

16 Mr. Ackerman and I have reached an agreement in respect of how the

17 Prijedor evidence is to be called. Can we just hand Your Honours copies?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours will notice that there's a

20 strike-through which I will agree to.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I was about to refer to that.

22 Mr. Ackerman drafted, I struck through those words because it relates to

23 something Your Honours said, but -- if Your Honour takes it, it will see,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness can leave the courtroom. Usher,

1 please.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, in paragraph 3, you will see an

4 original line was struck through. I think Your Honours said something

5 about testimony relating specifically to Stakic would be struck. Your

6 Honour, of course, our case is that Stakic is a part of the joint

7 enterprise for which Mr. Brdjanin --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That I understand, but there may be data which

9 are --

10 MS. KORNER: There may be, Your Honour. I simply didn't want to

11 be -- what I think the idea is Mr. Ackerman will show us what he wants

12 redacted and then we'll redact and if there's any disagreement, we'll

13 argue for Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I fully understand the joint enterprise

15 element, but I'm pretty sure also that there will be references and

16 specific allegations relative to Stakic which have nothing to do with the

17 joint --

18 MS. KORNER: Almost none.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: It was just ambiguous. It was ambiguous as

20 written, Your Honour. Parts of the evidence against Stakic, of course,

21 are admissible in this case, parts are not.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we resume tomorrow afternoon at a

23 quarter after 2.00.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of

1 October 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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