Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11129

1 Wednesday, 30 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So Madam Registrar, call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear

9 me in a language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. I hear and

11 understand.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.

13 Appearances for the Prosecution.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Anna Richterova

15 and Ann Sutherland for the Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good afternoon to you.

17 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, I'm John Ackerman,

19 with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And good afternoon to you, too.

21 Any preliminaries?

22 Just to inform you, our decision on the Rule 68 and other matters,

23 other related matters, will be handed down later on today, hopefully

24 before the registry closes.

25 So I think we go into closed session.

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23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And we are finished with this one.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 11134

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, sir.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Very shortly, you will be starting with your

4 evidence, with your testimony. And our rules require that before you do

5 so, you make a solemn declaration that in the course of your testimony you

6 will be telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. In

7 other words, you will be making a declaration which is the equivalent of

8 an oath in those jurisdictions where an oath is administered.

9 The solemn declaration is contained, the text is contained, in a

10 piece of paper which the usher is going to hand to you, and my request to

11 you is to take that declaration and read it out loud. That would be your

12 commitment with this Tribunal that you will be telling us the truth and

13 the whole truth. Please proceed.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

17 THE WITNESS: [In English] Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So very shortly, I am going to explain to you what's

19 going to happen. You are one of the witnesses that the Prosecution has

20 summoned to give evidence in this trial against Radoslav Brdjanin. The

21 procedure that will be followed is a very simple one. For some time, you

22 will be asked questions by Ms. Sutherland for the Prosecution. I

23 understand that you are already familiar with Ms. Sutherland. You have

24 met her before.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 11135

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Once the examination-in-chief series of questions by

2 the Prosecutor is over, then it will be the turn of the Defence lawyers to

3 cross-examine you, to put a set of questions to you. This is a right that

4 the Defence enjoys because the law requires parity of arms. The law does

5 not give more rights to the Prosecution or try to obstruct the accused in

6 his proper defence. Once cross-examination is a right, then it follows

7 that you have a duty, a responsibility, not to make any distinction

8 between the two, between the Prosecutor and the Defence. Your obligation

9 is a very straightforward one. You have a duty to answer each question

10 wherever it is coming from, irrespective of whether it is being made by

11 the Prosecutor or the Defence counsel, your duty is to answer that

12 question as fully as possible and certainly as truthfully as you are in a

13 position to do. Having said that, I now invite Ms. Sutherland to commence

14 her examination-in-chief.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:

19 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, can you please state your full name.

20 A. My name is Kerim Mesanovic.

21 Q. What is your date of birth?

22 A. I was born on the 25th of July, 1955.

23 Q. You testified in the Kvocka trial otherwise known as the Omarska

24 trial on the 11th and 12th of September, 2000. Do you recall that?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 11136

1 Q. And since you arrived in The Hague, you've had an opportunity to

2 review that testimony by listening to audiotapes of the hearing.

3 A. That's correct.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, pursuant to the agreement between

5 the Prosecution and the Defence, the Prosecution seeks to have the

6 transcript of Mr. Mesanovic's Omarska testimony and the exhibits submitted

7 pursuant to Rule 92 bis. I have three copies for the Judges and one for

8 the registry here.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't know how you want --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. Ackerman is confused, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not the first time.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: It's not the first time and won't be the last.

15 It was my understanding that these transcripts were to be provided to you

16 well in advance of the testimony of the witness so you would have a chance

17 to go through them before the witness came and testified. And it now

18 makes it quite difficult to proceed because any cross-examination I had

19 for this witness was based upon my belief that you would have already read

20 the transcripts.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not much, Mr. Ackerman. It's from 514025220,

22 and then from 5228 until 5246. I understand that you won't be proceeding

23 with your cross-examination before Ms. Sutherland finishes her direct.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: That's true.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Which will not be today, as I understand it. So I

Page 11137

1 can assure you that by tomorrow afternoon when we meet again, we would

2 have read this. And your concerns about not --

3 MR. ACKERMAN: My concern is not so much with today, Your Honour.

4 There are witnesses coming where the transcripts are huge, and you won't

5 be able to read them overnight between direct and cross, it's my

6 understanding that those should be provided to you well in advance of the

7 witness, and I just hope that that will happen in the future.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, you are right.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, and that will happen with every

10 subsequent witness that we seek to do this.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: In good time, because don't forget Ms. Sutherland,

12 that I in particular, in the next weeks, will be dealing with Mrdja,

13 Nikolic, plus also all the other cases pending before Trial Chamber II

14 where I am not pretrial Judge because I happen to be one of the permanent

15 Judges in Trial Chamber II. So more or less every week it's one or two or

16 three other cases that I have to deal with.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I apologise for the oversight. I

18 thought Your Honours had the transcript before, and we would just be

19 submitting one copy of the transcript as an exhibit today. I apologise.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We didn't have this.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's my fault that you haven't been provided with

22 it before today.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: The important thing because this we can easily

24 handle. This is not much. It's an hour's reading.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: As Mr. Ackerman rightly says, there are some

Page 11138

1 witnesses that have two or three transcripts so you need them well in

2 advance in order to read them.

3 May I continue.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, please.


6 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, as discussed with you, your testimony today will

7 focus on matters outside your Omarska testimony except for one or two

8 questions which I will ask you in order to clarify or expand upon a couple

9 of matters which were contained in your testimony. I will also be asking

10 you to look at a number of documents. So I turn now to Prijedor in 1992.

11 Up until that time, you had lived in the town of Prijedor for nearly 30

12 years, that is from 1963 until 1992.

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. You lived in the centre of Prijedor both with your parents and

15 then with your own family after you married?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. You worked in the mobilisation department of the secretariat for

18 the people's defence for thirteen years from 1979 until 1992?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Where is the building of the secretariat for the people's

21 defence? Where was it in Prijedor?

22 A. The building of the secretariat for the people's defence was in

23 the Mose Pijade Street number 2, as part of the building of the

24 secretariat for internal affairs. Later, in 1986 or 1987, an annex was

25 built in the courtyard of the museum for the town of Prijedor.

Page 11139

1 Q. You mentioned the secretariat for internal affairs, did that have

2 an acronym?

3 A. Yes, it was called SUP for short.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution

5 Exhibit P1128-2, please, the photograph.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, because the transcript says

7 P118, exactly. So it should be 1128.2. All right.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And I don't think -- okay, it is being corrected

10 now. All right.


12 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, do you recognise that photograph?

13 A. This is the SUP building.

14 Q. Would you just place it on the machine to your left. Using the

15 pointer, would you point to where the secretariat for people's defence

16 offices were.

17 A. Starting from this building in the -- on the ground floor, this is

18 where a recruitment affairs were. This is where the reserve officers and

19 labour duty affairs were located. Then this is the section for

20 mobilisation affairs, and this one was just purely military duty. And

21 this part here was the office where I was working on automatic data

22 processing. You don't see from here the part that was added on some time

23 in 1986 or 1987. This building was constructed later as part of the SUP.

24 So it was all -- this is all here, the first, the second floor --

25 Q. You are pointing to the right-hand side of the picture. For the

Page 11140

1 people's -- secretariat for people's defence offices?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And you said your office --

4 A. These are the offices.

5 Q. -- was the bottom left-hand corner office where the mobilisation

6 office was?

7 A. That's correct. Yes, where I am pointing, that was the

8 mobilisation part, and this is where I worked in this building here. This

9 is the office where I worked.

10 Q. How many floors did the secretariat for people's defence occupy?

11 A. The addition had three floors including the ground floor, and then

12 on the other side there were some parallel offices which belonged to the

13 secretariat for the people's defence. In the middle there was a corridor.

14 There were five offices facing the street, and there were five offices on

15 the other side of the building looking on to the SUP courtyard. In this

16 part there were three floors added on to the secretariat for people's

17 defence.

18 Q. And besides that area you just mentioned, the rest of the building

19 was taken up by the SUP. Is that correct?

20 A. That's correct. And another part back in the courtyard which

21 consisted of federation for conferences, a car repair shop, a cell, a

22 restaurant, and a room where the files were kept.

23 Q. And as you've discussed in your Omarska transcript, and we won't

24 go back over it, the cell that you just referred to at the back of the SUP

25 was where you were taken when you were arrested, was it not?

Page 11141

1 A. That's correct. That's in the courtyard of the SUP.

2 Q. I've finished with that photograph. Sir, what other buildings are

3 in the immediate vicinity of this building, what other government

4 buildings?

5 A. Looking at the photograph we just had, to the left, there was the

6 court building. As I said, part of the secretariat for people's defence

7 was built as an annex in the museum courtyard. So just in front of the

8 building, the view we saw in the photograph, that was the old building of

9 the municipal assembly of Prijedor and behind there was the administration

10 building of the Ljubija iron ore mine that was behind the old municipal

11 assembly building.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown this document,

13 please. Your Honours, copies were distributed either Monday or Tuesday.

14 And Ms. Gustin has informed me that the map should be marked as P1.1.

15 Your Honour, do you want to give Mr. Mesanovic's Rule 92 bis testimony an

16 exhibit number at this stage?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you say P1.1.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: P1.1. P1, the town maps of Prijedor, and this

19 document is based on those town maps that were marked by Mr. Inayat in his

20 earlier testimony.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] All right.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that make sense to you, Madam Registrar?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I'm very happy with that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

Page 11142


2 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, just looking at that -- looking at the photographs,

3 are you able to tell the Court what they are photographs of?

4 A. I apologise. I need to put my glasses on. Which number should I

5 start with, or is it important?

6 Q. Starting with number 1.

7 A. Number 1 is the building, the municipal building. Number 2 is the

8 SUP building. Number 3 is the old town. To the right you can see the

9 River Sana and the Prijedor Hotel. Number 4 is the Mladost sports hall,

10 it was part of a technical school and gymnasium. Number 5 is Trnopolje.

11 What I am pointing at, that is the Dom building, and then the shop, the

12 school that my late father had worked in for almost 30 years. Number 9 is

13 the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks. Number 8 is the youth district of Benkovac,

14 in which I had spent part of my time before the war with different youth

15 activities. Number 7 is Keraterm. I skipped number 6, that's Omarska.

16 The Olakovic [phoen] Restaurant, the hangar, and the red house.

17 Q. You mentioned number 3 as Stari Grad. Was that a settlement of

18 houses?

19 A. Yes, that was a settlement of an older type. According to as much

20 as I can remember, and I can see here the Lovac Restaurant. It was owned

21 by Kozara Turist. You can see it here below the old linden trees. It was

22 on the way into the old town or as we refer to it, "K". That was a

23 favorite place for excursions.

24 Q. What was the ethnicity of persons that lived in the Stari Grad

25 area?

Page 11143

1 A. I think 99 per cent Muslims. I even know a Serb lad who lived

2 there, but he was married to a Muslim woman.

3 Q. And in that photograph, you said you could see one building. Is

4 that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct. That's over here. It was called Lovac,

6 hunter. It was a restaurant, and it was owned by the Kozara Turist

7 company. That was a catering company in Prijedor.

8 Q. Do you know what happened to that area of Stari Grad?

9 A. Yes. According to accounts by my colleague, Haka Hodjilic [phoen]

10 who lived in this part roughly, and he came there after the attack on

11 Prijedor, they cleared up the old town with tanks starting with the mosque

12 and then going around the town. I don't know if you know about this, but

13 those were old houses mostly made of timber and earth. And that was a

14 protected area. It was supposed to be renovated as a protected area, and

15 it was supposed to remain the old town. That was before the war, of

16 course.

17 Q. You also mentioned number 8 as the youth district in Benkovac. Do

18 you know whether there was a military installation at Benkovac?

19 A. No, not before the war. It was envisaged as a youth district, and

20 it was a Yugoslav federal level building operation, and there was a

21 project and there was supposed to be six buildings in it representing each

22 of the republic and then an essential building representing the

23 federation. It was supposed to symbolise Yugoslavia. It was some sort of

24 a youth district for sports and recreation activities.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've finished with that exhibit.

Page 11144

1 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, would it be fair to say that through working in the

2 centre of town and privately, you came to know a lot of the citizens in

3 Prijedor?

4 A. Most, yes. The great majority, especially people belonging to my

5 generation or within five or ten years.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution

7 Exhibit P1190 and also P1182. If the witness can be given P1190.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, did you give him the document? Could you put

9 the English version on the ELMO, please. Thank you.


11 Q. Sir, what is the date of that document?

12 A. The 5th of May, 1992.

13 Q. That is minutes of the second session of the National Defence

14 Council of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor. Looking at the items on

15 the agenda, what is agenda item 1?

16 A. Discussion of the decisions on mobilisation and the passing of

17 resolutions.

18 Q. And then looking at conclusion number 2, could you read that

19 conclusion, please.

20 A. "The municipal secretariat for national defence is to reinforce the

21 TO detachment and the war unit 4777 in conjunction with the military

22 department and in accordance with the request made by the commanders of

23 these units."

24 Q. I'm sorry, that was conclusion number 1. Since you've stated it,

25 the TO detachment --

Page 11145

1 A. I apologise.

2 Q. That's okay. The TO detachment, did that have a war unit number?

3 A. Yes. That was T-08949. That was how the detachment was numbered.

4 Q. Do you know of a war unit numbered 8316?

5 A. Yes. That was the 5th Kozara Brigade, 8316. That's how we

6 referred to it. But that was the 5th Kozara Brigade, the TO unit.

7 Q. And what is war unit 7777 [sic]?

8 A. At first, it was an infantry regiment. I don't know exactly until

9 when. And then it was converted into a motorised brigade. It evolved

10 into a motorised brigade, I think the 43rd Motorised Brigade. It evolved

11 from a regiment into a brigade. I don't know exactly how long before the

12 war.

13 Q. What was the JNA name for the war unit 4777?

14 A. I think they called it the 43rd Motorised Brigade. I know that it

15 was military post 3670 Prijedor.

16 Q. Have you heard of the 343rd Motorised Brigade?

17 A. Quite probably there was -- that was that because what I gave you

18 was a three-digit number but mostly it was two-digit numbers. So perhaps

19 we used to refer to it as 43rd so that's why I remember that. It refers

20 to the former regiment and then became the motorised brigade 4777.

21 Q. Thank you. Could you read the conclusion numbered 2.

22 A. "The mobilisation orders following from the decision of the

23 autonomous region of Bosanska Krajina assembly are to be carried out when

24 the actual situation and the municipality renders it necessary and in

25 accordance with the needs and special plan through callup papers issued by

Page 11146

1 the municipal secretariat for national defence."

2 Q. Could you now look at Exhibit P1182. What is the date of that

3 document?

4 A. 4th of May, 1992.

5 Q. And who is the signature block on the document?

6 A. The document apparently signed by Milorad Stakic, excuse me, Za --

7 in my copy, it's illegible. The last two letters I and C. I couldn't

8 really tell which the third letter is. It's illegible. It's very

9 difficult to see and quite illegible. Milorad Sahic [phoen]. Is it Sahic

10 perhaps?

11 Q. Looking at the very top of the document, the block on the very top

12 of the document, could you read that, please.

13 A. "Serbian republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of

14 Bosanska Krajina, republic secretariat for national defence --"

15 correction, "regional secretariat for national defence.

16 Lieutenant-Colonel Milorad Sahic." I've never heard of this institution.

17 That's not before the war, it never even existed, regional secretariat for

18 national defence. Such an institution never existed before the war.

19 Q. Could you look at the decision numbered 1. Could you read that,

20 please.

21 A. "A call for general public mobilisation on the entire territory of

22 AP Krajina."

23 Q. And then if you go back to P1190, and conclusion number 2, the

24 mobilisation orders following from the decision of the autonomous region

25 of Bosanska Krajina assembly are to be carried out, and it continues. Did

Page 11147

1 you carry out this mobilisation until your arrest on the 24th of June,

2 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What ethnicity of persons were you mobilising?

5 A. During this period, I was only mobilising people of Serb

6 ethnicity, only people of Serb ethnicity. They were in the files and in

7 the databases, they were there as Serbs.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've finished with those two documents. Could

10 the witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit P1268.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, before you proceed with the next question on

12 this new document, just to make this clear, the document that you have

13 been referring to, the Serbo-Croat version, the third line from the top --

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Of P1182, Your Honour?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Can you read out the first word in

16 the third line, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Situation.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: From the top I said. From the very top. The third

19 line in block letters.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regional secretariat for the

21 people's defence.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... translate it

23 republic secretariat. Make a note of it, Ms. Sutherland, and then perhaps

24 you can come back to us on it. Because it does make a difference,

25 regional is regional and republic is republic.

Page 11148

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, does your English version say at the

3 top that it's a revised translation?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Good fix, huh?


7 Q. I'm sorry. While you have Exhibit P1190, which

8 is the other document, who presided over the meeting of the National

9 Defence Council on the 5th of May, 1992?

10 A. Stakic, Dr. Milomir Stakic, president of the council for the

11 people's defence presided over the meeting.

12 Q. Thank you. I've finished with these two documents.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness could be shown Exhibit P1268.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I note in 1190, for example, there is a

15 reference to municipal secretariat for national defence. Then it becomes

16 republic secretariat for national defence. But it is indeed a regional

17 secretariat for national defence.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour if --

19 Q. Witness, can you look at Exhibit P1190. Conclusion number 2 talks

20 about mobilisation orders from the decision of the autonomous region

21 Bosanska Krajina assembly, and it is to be carried out through callup

22 papers issued at the municipality level. Is that correct? And this

23 municipal secretariat for the national defence is the department that you

24 worked in in Prijedor in 1992, is it not?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 11149

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Is that clear, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, just wanted to draw the distinction

3 because he referred to in the beginning of his testimony today, he did

4 refer to that, and then when he's referring to the regional secretariat

5 for national defence, he made a categoric statement that this never

6 existed before the war. So at some point in time, there must have

7 happened something which either brought into the existence the regional

8 secretariat for national defence. But it seems that the regional

9 secretariat for national defence appears on a document dated 4/5/92 which

10 predates by one day the document which is P1190. So we have a statement

11 and a confirmation of what he had stated earlier, but still leaves the

12 matter a little bit hazy.


14 Q. Witness, you weren't --

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, before you ask a question. Judge, I'm

16 wondering, the other day we had an exhibit that the translation was wrong

17 and the year was wrong. It was 1993 when it should have been --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: 1993 --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: And now today we have got this one. Does anybody

20 undertake the responsibility to substitute a corrected translation into

21 the exhibits in this case? Because if not, there are exhibits that we know

22 are wrong and because we are sitting here we know it, but somebody looking

23 at these exhibits in the future is not going to know that they are

24 incorrect translations.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we will look into it.

Page 11150

1 MR. ACKERMAN: So substitutions would be nice.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll look into it. My legal officer will remind me

3 of this.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I also think that we have on a

5 number of occasions said that we were requesting revised translations.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: And they are in the pipeline.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Indeed you did. Indeed you did. Sorry for all

9 these interruptions, Ms. Sutherland. I know that they are frustrating,

10 but you see, what worries me is if you look at 1182, whoever translated

11 it, at page 2 of the English version right at the bottom of the page, you

12 have before the name Colonel Milorad Sahic secretary of the regional

13 secretariat for NO. So why on earth he or she here translates the word

14 into regional but translates the third line, the beginning of the

15 paragraph, into republic just is beyond me. I can't understand it.

16 Because the same word is translated into republic in one instance, and

17 into regional in another.


19 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, looking at Exhibit P1268, if you can, in the -- if

20 you can go to decision numbered 19 at the top, do you have that? It's a

21 decision of the 20th of May, 1992.

22 A. Yes, I do. "Pursuant to Article 110 of the constitution of the

23 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Official Gazette of the Serbian

24 people in Bosnia-Herzegovina number --" I think, "32/92 and Article 4 on

25 the decision of the organisation and operation of the Crisis Staff of

Page 11151

1 Prijedor Municipality, number - something - /92, the Prijedor Municipal

2 Assembly on its session of May 22nd, 1992, adopted the following

3 decision and appointment to Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff."

4 Q. Is that at a meeting of the 22nd of May or the 20th?

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: In the English translation, Your Honour, it says

6 22nd.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's speaking of the 22nd.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I can see here is the 20th of

9 May, 1992.


11 Q. That's correct.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: That will have to be another revised translation,

13 Your Honour.

14 Q. What did the Prijedor Municipal Assembly adopt? What was the

15 decision?

16 A. "This decision is made for the president, the vice-president, and

17 members of the Crisis Staff of Prijedor Municipality. The following

18 people are appointed, one, Dr. Milomir Stakic, president of the Prijedor

19 Municipal Assembly is appointed president."

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a need for him to read out the names of the

21 members of the municipal Crisis Staff?

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, no.

23 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, do you know any of the people listed from 1 to 10

24 in this document?

25 A. Dr. Milomir Stakic, when I say I know him, I don't know him

Page 11152

1 personally. I know him as someone from the same town. Savanovic, Dragan

2 as well. Dr. Milan Kovacevic, Slobodan Kuruzovic, Bosko Mandic. I don't

3 know Bosko Mandic. I used to know Simo Drljaca. Slavko Budimir was a

4 colleague of mine. Later, he became the secretary of the secretariat.

5 Ratko Travar, I can't remember that man. Vojo Pavicic is a neighbour of

6 mine, a childhood friend. We grew up together. Dr. Zeljko Macura, I know

7 him personally. And Vojo Pavicic, too.

8 Q. I want you now to view a videotape, and tell me whether you

9 recognise anyone on the videotape that is listed on the document or if

10 there's other people that are on the videotape that are not listed on the

11 document as well. If the audiovisual director could play video V000-0084

12 and if that could be marked for identification as P1129, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop us. When you want to point out any individual

14 or anything in this videoclip, just say the word "stop," and the

15 technicians will stop, will freeze the picture, and then you can tell us

16 exactly what you want to tell us.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: I apologise for the bad quality of the tape.

18 It's the best we could do.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, if the purpose of playing the tape is

20 for recognition of individuals, then I would suggest that the sound not be

21 turned on.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: There is no sound on this video.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.


25 [Videotape played]

Page 11153

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the town of Prijedor. Tito

2 Street.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: If you could rewind.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop, stop. Slavko Budimir, the

5 secretary of the secretariat for people's defence. My former colleague.


7 Q. Using your pointer, can you -- no, I'm sorry. You can't. What

8 gentleman are you referring to?

9 A. I am talking about the man sitting at the head of the table and is

10 looking at the screen on the right side, Slavko Budimir, the secretary of

11 the secretariat for people's defence. Let's continue.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One question, because to me, there are two persons

13 sitting more or less at the head of the table. One wearing a dark jacket,

14 and the other one wearing --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. He's wearing a jacket,

16 and a white shirt, probably a white shirt. And he is sitting at the head

17 of the table just like I am. The other person is in a jacket and he is

18 bald. This other person that I am talking about has more hair and is

19 wearing a jacket.


21 Q. Do you recognise the person on the right?

22 A. The person --

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

24 A. The picture is fuzzy, but I think this is Simo Drljaca, this

25 person here. Maybe if you can play it a little bit. I think he has a

Page 11154

1 moustache. And then there is Dr. Kovacevic, if that's a moustache.

2 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, you're pointing with the pointer to the computer,

3 but we are not able to see that, what you are pointing at. The person

4 that you referred to as Drljaca, what colour shirt is he wearing in the

5 photograph and where is he sitting?

6 A. He is sitting in the left corner of the screen. He's bent over

7 slightly, and he is wearing a white shirt. He is in the centre of the

8 left corner. And then if this is a moustache, then that's Dr. Milan

9 Kovacevic to the right. The man, is this my right-hand, to the right,

10 there's a man with a wedding ring on his hand, and if you could play it a

11 little bit, please.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

13 A. Stop. This is Dr. Kovacevic. And could you please play it a

14 little bit forward. His hand is a little bit in the way, but it looks

15 like Dr. Macura.

16 Stop. The person, I think he's holding a cigarette in a military

17 uniform, so the first from the front of the screen, that's Major Radmilo

18 Zeljaja. I don't know the military officer or person with glasses. Can

19 we continue, please.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I can just say for the record, we're looking

21 at

22 A. This is finally Dr. Kovacevic, the person that I said has a

23 moustache. He's holding a cigarette in his left hand. Stop. In the

24 right-hand corner of the screen on the right side of the screen is Simo

25 Drljaca in the corner with a suit jacket and a white shirt. This is

Page 11155

1 Dr. Kovacevic, and then this other person I don't see very clearly.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: For the record, the video was paused at


4 Q. You are saying that Kovacevic is on the left and Drljaca is on the

5 right; is that correct?

6 A. Drljaca is on the right.

7 Q. Thank you. If the video could be played again.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop again. Radmilo Zeljaja again.

10 I think that's him. I can see him better now. He's on the left side of

11 the table. There are two persons sitting on each side of him. On one

12 side is a person in a military uniform that I don't know. Can we continue

13 please.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Previous translation continues] ... 58.16.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. The person on the left side

17 with his left-hand on his ear with a watch on his wrist is Slavko Budimir.

18 So that's the man in the left side of the screen. Then there's a person

19 on the right side who has his right hand on his shoulder. That's Dr.

20 Zeljko Macura.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: And that is stopped at

22 Could you play the video, please.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. Stop. Could you stop the video,

25 please. Completely stop.

Page 11156

1 Could the witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit 1218.

2 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, this is a decision of the Crisis Staff of the

3 Prijedor Municipality of a meeting held on the 22nd of May, 1992. And

4 it's a decision about the mobilisation on the territory of the Prijedor

5 Municipality. Could you read the first paragraph numbered 1.

6 A. "All conscripts assigned to the following war units, 4777, 3507,

7 5456, 6817, 2982, 3839, 6588, 4853, and TO 8316 are requested to

8 immediately report to their war units. Those conscripts who are assigned

9 to other war units than those mentioned above are obligated to report

10 immediately to the military district Zarko Zgonjanin barracks in order to

11 be given instructions with regard to the mobilisation."

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Could the witness be asked to read the first

13 paragraph to show the source of the authority of the decision. Since we

14 went through that with another document just a few moments ago, just to be

15 fair I think that should be done.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Certainly.

17 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, could you please read the first paragraph at the

18 top of the document.

19 A. "Pursuant to the decision of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina about the general public mobilisation of forces and materiel

21 in the Republic, the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor Municipality,

22 considering the current situation and conditions at the meeting held on

23 the 22nd of May, 1992, reached decision about the mobilisation on the

24 territory of the Prijedor Municipality."

25 Q. Now, in relation to the war units listed in paragraph numbered 1,

Page 11157

1 you have mentioned in your testimony already today that war unit 4777 was

2 the 43rd Motorised Brigade from Prijedor. You also said that --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- war unit TO 8316 was the 5th Kozara Brigade. Can you tell

5 me --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- given your experience in mobilisation, can you tell me what war

8 unit 3507 is?

9 A. I apologise in my best -- I will do my best to explain because it

10 has been ten years since that event. So I will try my best to explain.

11 The 3507 was the Banja Luka rocket unit. This is what we called it

12 amongst ourselves. Its place of mobilisation was in the village of

13 Dragocaj near Banja Luka. We provided for a part of this unit. I don't

14 remember the exact number, from the municipality of Prijedor, and we made

15 up the numbers from military conscripts. I think this number was perhaps

16 200 to 300 conscripts, not more, and the rest of the manpower was filled

17 by Banja Luka and Gradiska, and this is how these units were manned 100

18 per cent according to the demands -- regulations regarding war units.

19 Q. At the moment, I just wanted you to tell me what the name of the

20 units were. So unit -- war unit 5456?

21 A. 5456, if I remember, was a Partizan brigade. 6817 was the

22 engineers's regiment. 2982 if I remember well was the 6th Partizan

23 Brigade. 3839, I think, was also the same. It was one of the Partizan

24 Brigades in the territory of Banja Luka. 6588 I think its place of

25 mobilisation was in the Mali Logor barracks in Banja Luka. It was a

Page 11158

1 smaller unit with mainly police specialties because in the Banja Luka area

2 was mostly the military police and accompanying units. 4853 was a very

3 interesting unit with long-range missiles and exclusive command over this

4 unit was kept by the presidency of the SFRY. We would provide the

5 reserves for this unit, and they were mostly people who had at least

6 completed high school level of education. They were mostly engineers,

7 math teachers, because there was a lot of calculation involved in the

8 work of these units in the territory of Banja Luka. 7316 was I've already

9 said was the Kozara Brigade, it was the TO Kozara Brigade in the area of

10 Prijedor. And it was 100 per cent filled up by military conscripts from

11 the town of Prijedor and the Municipality of Prijedor.

12 Q. And in relation to 5356, the Partizan unit, and 6817 the military

13 engineers, where were they based?

14 A. 5456 was in the area of Banja Luka, and 6817 was also in Banja

15 Luka, in the Banja Luka area, in the village of Bosanski Aleksandrovac.

16 And there was another subunit which was part of the larger unit, and it

17 had a numerical insignia. So at the Level 4 -- it was at the level of a

18 company.

19 The main unit was 6818. And the 6817 as we used to call, its

20 mobilisation place was also in Aleksandrovac. But twice a year, it was

21 mobilised for training at the Jasenovac bridge. This is a bridge which

22 was over the River Sava. I attended these exercises on several occasions

23 because the mining installation to mine the bridge was already installed,

24 not only for that particular bridge but for other bridges as well in

25 accordance with the National Defence doctrine in order to defend ourselves

Page 11159

1 from the enemy from several directions. So twice a year, they would go to

2 check the bridge installations and to undergo training.

3 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, can I please ask you to speak a little bit more

4 slowly so that the interpreters are able to keep up with you. You are

5 speaking very quickly.

6 You mentioned that the war unit 4853, the long-range missiles, was

7 the exclusive command of the presidency of the SFRY. You're referring to

8 the time pre-18 May 1992, are you not?

9 A. Yes. That's the period that I'm talking about.

10 Q. You mentioned that a number of these war units were -- to report,

11 you would have to go to Banja Luka. Why would people from Prijedor be

12 mobilised in these, for example, Banja Luka engineers or rocket missile

13 brigades?

14 A. This would be a longer story. From the earlier system, the orders

15 would come by military mail from the republican secretariat, through the

16 military post.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.


19 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, would you please pause there. The interpreters

20 would like you to slow down a little.

21 A. I apologise.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that I just asked you, is it

23 the reason these people were mobilised in the two examples I gave you

24 because they have specialised experience in those war units, what those

25 war units are about?

Page 11160

1 A. Yes, that's exactly so, only because of their specialisation.

2 Because Banja Luka did not have certain specialties, then we would go to

3 nearby municipalities and wider. So we would request a certain number of

4 specialties for the reserve officers who were subject to military

5 conscription.

6 Q. Where would the majority of conscripts from Prijedor be earmarked

7 to go? You said a moment ago that war unit 8316 would be 100 per cent

8 Prijedor conscripts. Where would the majority of conscripts go from

9 Prijedor, into what war unit besides 8316?

10 A. To the 3507, 6817, 3832, 39, and 6588, these were the units which

11 were not 100 per cent filled by the manpower in the town of Prijedor --

12 the municipality of Prijedor. I apologise.

13 Q. I'm sorry. There seems to be a misunderstanding. My question was

14 where would the majority of Prijedor conscripts be mobilised to? You

15 mentioned two units a moment ago, 4777, which was the 43rd Brigade, and

16 8716.

17 A. The remaining number of the units were mobilised in the environs

18 of Banja Luka.

19 Q. And so from your answer, I gather that the majority of the

20 conscripts would have been mobilised into 4777 and 4316 [sic]. Is that

21 correct?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [No microphone]

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: I've finished with that document. Could the

25 witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit 1278.

Page 11161

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Just before that, let's correct this for the record.

2 According to the transcript here, your question was: "And so, from your

3 answer, I gather that the majority of the conscripts would have been

4 mobilised into 4777 and 4316."

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: No. 8316.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Where we have "4316", it should be 8316. 8316.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. You don't need to apologise. It's not your

9 fault anyway.


11 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, do you have P1278 in front of you? Sir, this is a

12 document dated June 1992, the title being "The Instructions on the

13 Establishment, Composition, and Tasks of the Local Crisis Staffs in the

14 Prijedor Municipality."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And at the top left-hand block, it reads "Serbian Republic of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of Krajina, Prijedor

18 Municipality Crisis Staff."

19 A. No. Not on my copy. We're talking about the same document?

20 Q. Does it say "Srpska Republika Bosnia-Herzegovina"?

21 A. No.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Has the witness got P1278?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First page.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, I can explain to you what's

25 happening for sure. The first page of the Serbo-Croat version is on the

Page 11162

1 back page, on the back of the last page -- all right?

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yeah, it's under control.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I want to lodge an objection with

5 regard to this particular exhibit.


7 MR. ACKERMAN: If you look at the B/C/S original of this, it

8 appears that it's nothing more than a draft. The dates and things were

9 not filled in in the first paragraph. There's no stamp on it. There's no

10 signature on it. And the appearance of it is that it was never adopted or

11 disseminated. It's just an unadopted -- unused draft. That's what it

12 looks like.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: It could well be --

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it goes to the weight of it.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. It could well be it was never

16 approved, but that doesn't mean to say that that excludes it from

17 admissibility in evidence. It may still be important as a document.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it may change the way -- it may change the

19 effect that it has, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. Definitely. But it doesn't mean to say

21 the fact that there is nothing to show that this decision was ever taken

22 means that the draft cannot be admitted in evidence, for whatever it may

23 be worth.

24 So please go ahead, Ms. Sutherland.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 11163

1 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, can you look at paragraph number 11.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait a bit. Did he answer the question that you had

3 put?

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

5 Q. Going back to the title on the top left-hand corner of the

6 document, does that say "Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

7 Autonomous Region of Krajina, Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff"?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. If you can turn to paragraph number 11, could you read out that

10 paragraph, please.

11 A. "The local Crisis Staffs are to carry out other work in accordance

12 with the decisions and other documents passed by the Assembly, the

13 Presidency, and Government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina, competent organs of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and the

15 Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staffs."

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's exactly the basis of the

17 objection that I made. If this was never adopted, if it's just a draft

18 that was discarded, then this paragraph is senseless, meaningless.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's wait for the next question, Mr. Ackerman.

20 We've had documents like this, and then the next question -- I mean, I

21 wouldn't suggest the question, but I am anticipating what the next

22 question is going to be. And I am that sure you are anticipating the same

23 question.

24 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.


Page 11164

1 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, reading the paragraph that you have just read, do

2 you know whether these -- the local Crisis Staffs carried out their work

3 in accordance with what is stated in paragraph number 11?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there's just no way he could know that

5 unless he was in each of the local Crisis Staffs and worked in each of the

6 local Crisis Staffs. There's no foundation for that question at all.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer it. Let him answer it. Can you

8 answer that question, sir?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I knew that they did carry it

10 out because they received the military callups, according to the sectors

11 that they covered. Callup papers, they would place them -- they would

12 implement them in practice.


14 Q. Can you go to paragraph 13.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Can the interpreters have the document on the

16 ELMO, please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. What's the problem?

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: The interpreters haven't got a copy of the

19 document and they want the English translation put on the ELMO machine.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you -- is it on the ELMO? Yes, okay.

21 Are the interpreters happy? Thank you. Yes, please start reading it

22 again, sir.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


25 Q. This is talking about the previous paragraph, paragraph 12 talks

Page 11165

1 about the composition of the local Crisis Staffs. What does paragraph 13

2 state?

3 A. "The ex officio staff members are as follows: The military unit

4 commander whose area of responsibility is the local territory [appointed

5 as the president's assistant for military affairs] and police station or

6 police unit commander in charge of the local territory [appointed as the

7 president's assistant for security].

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, I've finished with that document.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes. Whenever it's

10 convenient.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we can take a break now.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we will take a break now. Is it agreed we will

14 only break for 15 minutes? The interpreters are happy with that? And the

15 technicians?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the technician needs 20 minutes, for

17 the relay of the other broadcast.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll break for 20 minutes.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's proceed. And please, slow down because I

22 want to make sure that the interpreters don't tire themselves out. Thank

23 you.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P1268.

25 It was the Official Gazette of the Prijedor Municipality.

Page 11166

1 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, can you please go to the decision numbered 34.

2 A. Yes, I've found it.

3 Q. This is a decision from the Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff issued

4 from its meeting of the 7th of June, 1992, and the decision was on the

5 demolition of structures war-damaged beyond repair. Under paragraph 1, it

6 lists a number of streets in Prijedor. I think you would be better at

7 pronouncing them than I. Could you name the two streets that are

8 mentioned there.

9 A. Yes, we're talking about Esad Midzica Street and Ivo Lola Ribara

10 Street.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have in my hand a very large

12 version of the town map of Prijedor. Smaller versions have been admitted

13 as P1, and I have shown this to Mr. Ackerman yesterday. It's the only

14 copy I have. If we could use this document because the names of the

15 streets on P1.1 and P1.2 are illegible. So we need the big map in order

16 for the witness to see the street names.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Can we proceed along

18 that --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: That's no problem, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] So we'll put that on the

21 ELMO, I suggest.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, sorry about that. I suggest, Ms. Sutherland,

24 first you indicate to the usher where you are going to direct the witness

25 to so that he would place the appropriate part on the ELMO because

Page 11167

1 otherwise, we will just get lost.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: I hope this will be the right area. And if that

3 could be marked P --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need to mark it? Because if it's actually an

5 enlargement of P1.1.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: It can be an exhibit, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. If it is -- I just stated that because that's

8 the only copy you have.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: At the moment.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we will have it admitted in evidence

11 as Exhibit P --





16 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, using the pointer, can you point to where Midzica

17 Street is?

18 A. Serdmica [phoen] Street is parallel to Marsal Tito Street, which

19 is the main street in the town of Prijedor. That's about here.

20 Q. Can you just point to where the SUP building is on that map.

21 A. The SUP building is in this area here. Street number 11.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, could you move the document a little bit

23 down.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: And then zoom in.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And then zoom in, exactly. Move it to the right,

Page 11168

1 please. But I can't see now. Yes, and could we zoom in a little bit

2 further for the time being. Yes, okay. So you are pointing at a spot

3 where there is number 13? Or number 11, 10?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm pointing at number 10, that's

5 the SUP building. This rectangle you can see here is the SUP building,

6 behind number 10. And then behind number 10 is the annex building in the

7 courtyard. Esad Midzica Street, this section here, the dotted line which

8 is parallel to the main street, Marsal Tito Street.


10 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, what is number 11 on that map, if you know?

11 A. Number 11 is the building of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly.

12 Q. And so the street that you just pointed to was just to the left of

13 the Municipal Assembly building, the broken line. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct. This broken line here.

15 Q. What was the majority -- what was the ethnicity of the majority of

16 inhabitants of that street?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: If you know, obviously.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Starting with the back of the Balkan

19 Hotel, in the back of the hotel, there was Alihrdjic Djuzin with his cafe

20 and restaurant, and this is the Centar cafe which remained in that street.

21 There was Henja who owned a kabob shop. This section here was Muslim --

22 all houses were Muslim. And in the centre there was the public building

23 of the Kozara Turist company.


25 Q. Thank you. And I don't remember what the --

Page 11169

1 A. Ivo Lola Ribara Street is in front of the Municipal Assembly

2 building. Also, that's this section here at the corner. We called it

3 Jereza Mira Cikota Ulica, so it came out onto the house of Srdo Srdic,

4 which was demolished by mistake or I don't know why at that time because

5 there was an Albanian there owning business premises in the house. But

6 aside from that, Simo [sic] Srdic, a person he took care of was living in

7 the same house. He owned a cafe.

8 Q. What was the --

9 A. That was his stepson.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Correction. Srdo Srdic's stepson --


12 Q. What was the ethnicity of the majority of the residents in

13 Ivo Lola Ribara Street, if you know?

14 A. Ivo Lola Ribara, there was Srdo Srdic's house, but there were

15 Muslim houses too. I think it was the president of the SDS for a while.

16 And I think his house disappeared from -- well he didn't exactly live

17 there. He had rented a house to use for the restaurant. That sort of

18 thing. And most of the street was inhabited by Muslims.

19 Q. Sir, looking now at decision number 36 in the Official Gazette, in

20 Exhibit Number P1268. There is Ivo Lola Ribara Street mentioned again.

21 And that is also, I'm sorry, decision number 36 is a decision on the

22 demolition of structures war-damaged beyond repair. And it's a decision

23 emanating from the Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff at its meeting of the

24 9th of June, 1992. As I've just said, Ivo Ribara Street is mentioned.

25 There is also another street. Mira Cikota Street. Can you point to that

Page 11170

1 on the map, and can you tell me what ethnicity of persons lived in that

2 street, the majority of people, if you know? Can you point to the street.

3 A. This is Mira Cikota Street, so to the left and to the right from

4 here, there was predominantly -- there were predominantly Muslim houses.

5 To the left and to the right because there was a radio amateur association

6 here. And then down the street from there, all the houses were Muslim as

7 far as the street corner where the orthodox church was.

8 Q. You are pointing now to the right of Stari Grad. Can you show the

9 Judges where Stari Grad is on the map?

10 A. Yes, yes, to the -- Stari Grad is this section here, this area.

11 Q. Can you also point to Partizanska Street.

12 A. Yes, I can. Partizanska Street runs parallel to the right river

13 bank of the Sana River. So here you have Marsal Tito Street, and then it

14 was --

15 Q. I'm sorry, can we zoom out.

16 A. I apologise.

17 Q. Can you point to the street again.

18 A. It begins here at Marsal Tito Street, and then it heads off here.

19 Here you have the Ljubija iron ore mine, part of their services. And then

20 this road leads to the Celpak company. And then on the right river bank,

21 and the right-hand side of the street, if I may call it that, at the

22 entrance to the Prijedor Hotel, there was a Serb house below which there

23 was a cafe and some business premises. And then you had a number of

24 Muslim houses with a butcher's shop, and a bakery, and two or three cafes

25 and restaurants. The entire right-hand side until the Obola Cafe, so all

Page 11171

1 the houses in this part were demolished between the entrance to the

2 new Prijedor Hotel as far as the Obola cafe on the right side.

3 Q. There is also in the decision of the 9th of June 1992 Ilija

4 Bursaca Street.

5 A. Ilija Bursaca. Just take a moment. Ilija Bursaca Street is here,

6 number 23. The junction. So that's this street.

7 Q. What was the ethnicity of the majority of the residents of that

8 street, if you know?

9 A. It was a mixed street. There were both Muslims and Serbs there.

10 Here you have Radio Prijedor and Kozarski Vjesnik, the newspaper, at

11 number 23. Just across the way is my uncle's house, and that house was

12 demolished, too. The house next to it was a Serb house which was

13 preserved. At the corner there was Hamdija Kurtovic's house, he was a

14 panel beater, and his house had been torn down. Next to his was a Serb

15 house that was whole and next to it was a Muslim house again and that

16 house, too, had been demolished.

17 Q. Also mentioned is Suljanovica Street. Can you point to that

18 street on the map.

19 A. That's a street running parallel to the flow of the River Sana

20 called Berek, and it led to the part of town called Skela with 90 per cent

21 Muslim population. That's also the street that which leaves the junction

22 of Pitolo Street here, and running almost parallel to this island called

23 Stari Grad, and then it takes you to this section here. That's Hrumonovic

24 Ulica. And then this part, just on the way in, that, too, was demolished.

25 I think there was a mosque here, and I think the mosque also was

Page 11172

1 demolished during the first attack. And on the way out towards the old

2 Prijedor-Bosanski Novi Road, all the houses there were demolished because

3 there was 90 per cent of Muslims there, there was some Catholics there,

4 some Ukrainians, too, but predominantly Muslims.

5 Q. The people who lived in Suljanovica Street, what was the ethnicity

6 of the majority of the inhabitants in that street if you know?

7 A. I think almost a hundred per cent Muslim in that section.

8 Q. Now, these two decisions issued on the 7th and 9th of June, 1992,

9 respectively, are you aware of when the damage occurred to these streets

10 that are mentioned in these two decisions?

11 A. I apologise. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question.

12 Q. I'm sorry, I'll clarify it. These two decisions issued on the 7th

13 and 9th of June, 1992, in relation to the war-damaged houses, in all of

14 the streets mentioned in these two decisions, are you aware of when the

15 damage occurred to the houses, the residences, in these streets, the

16 buildings in these streets that are mentioned?

17 A. I think it was on the 30th or 31st of May. It was the end of May,

18 and there were allegedly some operations. I have no idea, because I spent

19 all that time in my house. These houses were subjected to combat

20 operations. There was fire being opened on them by the enemy, so the

21 houses were torn down. I think it was either on the 30th or on the 31st

22 of May.

23 Q. When you refer to "the enemy" who are you referring to?

24 A. I mean the Muslims as opposed the Serbs who were tearing down the

25 houses.

Page 11173

1 Q. I'm sorry. Who do you say caused the damage to these Muslim

2 houses?

3 A. The Serbian army or whatever they were called.

4 Q. Thank you. Earlier, when you were shown Exhibit P1.1, which was

5 the town map with the photographs around it, you pointed to one of the

6 photographs being Stari Grad. And you said that "they came and cleared

7 Stari Grad with tanks." Who are you referring to when you say "they"?

8 A. The Serbian army came in with tanks. The story was told to me by

9 a colleague of mine who had remained without any possessions. He could

10 only keep what he was wearing the day he got out of the old town, Stari

11 Grad. Here is where the junction was, and the mosque. The first thing

12 they tore down was the mosque. And they stood on the plateau outside the

13 mosque and the houses were old. So even a detonation could cause them to

14 be destroyed. And then they just opened fire on whatever they could sight

15 in front of their barrels.

16 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that map.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P1237.

18 Q. This is a -- what is the date of the document?

19 A. 31st of May, 1992.

20 Q. Who is the document signed by? Or who is the signature block on

21 the last page?

22 A. I suppose this reads chief of the public security service. It

23 says Rljaca, so presumably Drljaca, Simo Drljaca. That's the last thing I

24 see, Rljaca, Drljaca, at least as far as I can see, Simo Drljaca.

25 Q. And does the block at the top of the document on the first page on

Page 11174

1 the left-hand side read "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

2 Ministry of the Interior, Security Services Centre Banja Luka, public

3 security station Prijedor"?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would you please read paragraph -- the first paragraph after the

6 date.

7 A. "With a view to the speedy and effective establishment of peace on

8 the territory of Prijedor Municipality, and in accordance with the

9 decision of the Crisis Staff, I hereby order the following:"

10 Q. Can you read the next paragraph.

11 A. "The industrial compound of the Omarska mine, strip mine, shall

12 serve as a provisional collection centre for persons captured in combat or

13 detained on the grounds of the security services operational information."

14 Q. Is that the place where you were detained from late June until

15 early August 1992?

16 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes.

17 Q. Could you turn to paragraph numbered 17. Who implemented -- who

18 was responsible for implementing this order?

19 A. "The implementation of this order shall be supervised by police

20 chief Dusan Jankovic. Jankovic, Dusan. In collaboration with the Bana

21 Luka security services centre and with the support of authorised executive

22 personnel."

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have finished with that document for the moment

24 but if it could be kept at the witness table because I will refer to it in

25 a moment. Could the witness be shown another document. This does not

Page 11175

1 have a Prosecution Exhibit Number. It was closed as Document 4.2147. And

2 if it could be given the next exhibit number which is P1130.

3 Q. Sir, this is a document dated the 23rd of June, 1992. The

4 signature block is the secretary of the Municipal Assembly, Dusan Baltic.

5 Who is the document addressed to?

6 A. To Simo Drljaca, chief of the public security station Prijedor.

7 Q. Can you please read the first paragraph and the first conclusion,

8 the first two conclusions, please.

9 A. "The Prijedor municipality Crisis Staff has entrusted this service

10 with the task of drafting a report on the implementation of the

11 conclusions, orders, decisions, rulings, and conclusions adopted at its

12 meetings. In order for this service to be able to develop the report it

13 is requested for you to submit in writing information about the

14 realisation of those Crisis Staff conclusions or whose implementations --

15 for whose implementations you or the station have been made responsible

16 and which have been forwarded to you in a timely fashion, specifically

17 conclusions number 02-11-108/92 dated 31st of May, 1992, and the following

18 conclusion number 02-111-109/92."

19 Shall I just read on?

20 Q. Does it say there those two conclusions are dated the 31st of May,

21 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you read what has been added by hand next to those two

24 conclusions.

25 A. Yes, I can. Forbidding the release of prisoners. Funds --

Page 11176

1 Q. No, no, no. That's sufficient. That's in relation to the next

2 conclusion.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness now be shown Prosecution

4 Exhibit 1282.

5 Q. Sir, this is a document dated the 1st of July, 1992. The

6 signature block at the bottom of the document is chief, public security

7 station, Simo Drljaca.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who is the document addressed to?

10 A. It's addressed to the Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of

11 Prijedor.

12 Q. And the reference is your documents numbered 02-111-236/92 dated

13 23rd June, 1992, and number 02-111-236/92 dated 30th of June, 1992. Could

14 you please read the first sentence and the first conclusion.

15 A. "In reference to your documents of the above numbers and dates, we

16 hereby inform you that: Conclusion number 02-111-108/92 by which the

17 release of prisoners is prohibited is being fully observed." Excuse me,

18 you said the second conclusion, too? Should I read out the second

19 conclusion?

20 Q. No, I'm sorry. I said the first conclusion. Could you read the

21 final conclusion? It's a decision just before the signature block.

22 A. "Decision of the Banja Luka Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis

23 Staff number 03-531/92 dated 22nd of June, 1992, on staffing executive

24 posts and other posts important to the function of business establishments

25 has been implemented in this public security station." SJB, I suppose

Page 11177

1 that means public security station.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit

3 P1238.

4 Your Honour, I have better copies of the B/C/S version, of the

5 original, of this document. The copy that I had in my binder was cut off

6 at the bottom. I don't know whether yours is as well.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ours is exactly the same.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: That is document -- yes. Its ERN number

9 00633780.

10 Q. Sir, this is -- what is the title block on the top left-hand

11 corner of the document?

12 A. "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of

13 Krajina, Municipality of Prijedor Crisis Staff."

14 Q. Could you read the first paragraph. "At its meeting held..."

15 Could you read down to "Article 1."

16 A. "At its meeting held on 2nd June, 1992, the Crisis Staff of the

17 Prijedor Municipality adopted the following decision on the release of

18 imprisoned persons: Article 1: All Serbs who have been imprisoned by

19 mistake are hereby released from further imprisonment. Article 2: All

20 soldiers and military personnel who have been imprisoned by mistake while

21 actually on leave with the authorisation of the appropriate military

22 authorities are hereby released from further imprisonment. Relatives of

23 soldiers and policemen who have responded to the mobilisation callup and

24 have participated in the war shall be released from further imprisonment

25 on the basis of lists compiled by the military authorities and confirmed

Page 11178

1 by the commanders' signature or on the basis of lists compiled by the

2 police organs and confirmed by the signature of the chief of the public

3 security station. All persons older than 60 for whom an investigation has

4 been confirmed that they did not commit an offense are hereby released

5 from further imprisonment. Other prisoners may be found --"

6 Q. Can you please slow down. Could you please slow down for the

7 interpreters. Could you please read from Article 4, again.

8 A. "All persons older than 60 for whom an investigation has confirmed

9 that they did not commit an offence are hereby released from further

10 imprisonment. Article 5: Other prisoners who may be found not guilty in

11 legal proceedings conducted by competent organs shall be released from

12 further imprisonment. Article 6: The public security station shall be in

13 charge of the implementation of this decision, and the chief of the public

14 security station shall be deemed personally responsible for it, as he has

15 the exclusive right to sign orders to release any imprisoned person."

16 Signed, Crisis Staff. And I can't identify the stamp and the

17 signature.

18 Q. Going back to Article 1 of the decision, "All Serbs who have been

19 imprisoned by mistake are hereby released from further imprisonment." Do

20 you see any reference to Muslims or non-Serbs who have been imprisoned by

21 mistake, whether they are hereby released from further imprisonment?

22 A. No.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have a problem deciding whether

24 that's a question or a submission.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's a question.

Page 11179

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Because we all know that it doesn't say that --

2 it's just a way for her to argue to you that it doesn't say it, it seems

3 to me.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: The witness can answer the question.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes, I think let the

6 witness answer the question.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, witness, please answer the question which was

9 put to you. And the question stated precisely the following: "Going back

10 to Article 1 of the decision, all Serbs who have been imprisoned by

11 mistake are hereby released from further imprisonment, do you see any

12 reference to Muslims or non-Serbs who have been imprisoned by mistake,

13 whether they are released from further imprisonment," that is specifically

14 in reference to Article 1, not with reference to any of the other

15 articles?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't see anywhere that

17 non-Serbs or Muslims are being released. Only Serbs are being released

18 from further imprisonment.


20 Q. Looking at Article 5, you were detained in Omarska from -- you

21 were arrested on the 24th of June, 1992. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you were taken to Omarska shortly thereafter where you stayed

24 until the beginning of August, 1992.

25 A. Yes.

Page 11180

1 Q. Were you ever charged with any offence and legal proceedings were

2 conducted?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness could be shown P1237 again, which

6 should be on the witness table.

7 Q. Sir, you read a moment ago paragraph numbered 1. Looking at the

8 order establishing this "provisional collection centre," who was assigned

9 the task of interrogating the detainees?

10 A. The inspectors were given this task, a team of -- a mixed team of

11 inspectors who would come to Omarska.

12 Q. Would you please read paragraph 3 of the document.

13 A. "A mixed group consisting of national, public, and military

14 security investigators shall be responsible for the work with and

15 categorisation of detainees. They shall organise themselves respecting

16 the parity principle, Mirko Jesic, Ranko Mijic, and Lieutenant Colonel

17 Majstorovic shall be responsible for their work."

18 Q. Mirko Jesic, do you know this person?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How long have you known him for?

21 A. Probably the entire time that I worked at the secretariat, for

22 that entire period, but actually he was a teacher by profession.

23 Q. Did he have any other function before the war?

24 A. No, he worked in the State Security Service. That's what we

25 called it. As an inspector of the State Security Service.

Page 11181

1 Q. What was his position within the State Security Service? You said

2 he was an inspector. At what level --

3 A. He was the chief of the State Security Service, right up until the

4 beginning of the war.

5 Q. Ranko Mijic, do you know him?

6 A. Very well. My former friend, a friend of many years' standing, we

7 spent a lot of time together. We even attended the same school for six

8 months. He was the chief of the criminal investigation service. His

9 nickname is Bajo, and most of the citizens of Prijedor know him as Bajo.

10 Q. You said that you went to the same school together. Which school

11 was this?

12 A. It was a school from the former system, a party school, a higher

13 political school of the league of communists. He went on behalf of the

14 SUP and I went on behalf of the Defence.

15 Q. How often would you get together with Ranko Mijic?

16 A. Almost every day we met at the SUP. We would have coffee at noon,

17 or if our joint friend came, he was a drummer with Divlje Jagode, then we

18 would go to a nearby cafe and have a drink. This was permitted under the

19 old system.

20 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Majstorovic, do you know him?

21 A. No. No, I don't know him.

22 Q. Did you see him in Omarska?

23 A. Several times.

24 Q. How did you know it was him? Were you told?

25 A. Yes, according to what the other inmates said, he wasn't very

Page 11182

1 tall. He always carried a brown briefcase in his hand. And every time

2 that he came he would pass by the glass house, so I did see him.

3 According to stories by the inmates, Halim Mesic, who often cooperated

4 with him and who was in the same room as me, I heard from him that this

5 was a Lieutenant-Colonel from Banja Luka. What the two of them did, I

6 don't know.

7 Q. And Mirko Jesic and Ranko Mijic were both from Prijedor?

8 A. Yes, they were both from Prijedor.

9 Q. How often did you see them in the Omarska camp?

10 A. Mijic Ranko, every day, every work day, their work day. So this

11 meant from Monday to Saturday. And I saw Jesic Mirko, Mijic

12 occasionally. And I don't know whether this was once a week or twice a

13 week but that's when I would see him. Mijic, Ranko would come every day

14 during work hours.

15 Q. You said that you were detained in the glass house.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You were detained there for the majority of your time at the camp?

18 A. Except for the first three days which I spent in the white house,

19 but all the time other than that I was in the glass house.

20 Q. Where was Mijic's office, if you know?

21 A. He was upstairs, like all the other inspectors. There were no

22 offices on the ground floor. So on the first floor of the administration

23 building.

24 Q. Where would you see Ranko Mijic?

25 A. I was able to see him most frequently, most of their visits to

Page 11183

1 Omarska, they would pass through the kitchen, if the weather was nice.

2 They would jump in through the restaurant window because the parapet was

3 low. The windows were low and it was summertime. So they would jump in

4 through the window or they would pass through the kitchen door and they

5 would pass through the line in which we were waiting for our meals and

6 they would pass along the entire length of the glass house in front of us.

7 So I was able to see him on his way in and out every day.

8 Q. What was his reaction when he saw you?

9 A. I think the most painful thing was that he didn't have any

10 response or reaction at all. He seemed to look through me. It was a very

11 bad feeling, a man that you knew practically up until yesterday, this

12 wasn't a long time ago. This wasn't years ago, with whom up until the day

13 before you socialised with, you visited each other's homes. He did not

14 ask me with any part of himself, not with his ears, his eyes, his mouth,

15 how I was -- how I was doing. And he was the one who was in charge of

16 everything.

17 Q. Looking again at paragraph 3, what is your understanding of the

18 words "categorisation of detainees"?

19 A. I think that there was simply a kind of categorisation at the end

20 of interrogation, and there were people who belonged to the first, second,

21 or third categories. People were placed in these categories, and they

22 decided in which category a person would be placed.

23 Q. When you say "they," who are you referring to, the interrogators,

24 or these three gentlemen, the three that are named in paragraph 3?

25 A. In all states and in all hierarchies, it's probably the chief who

Page 11184

1 was the one to decide, along with the recommendations of his workers. So

2 the chief is the one who decides whether it would be the first, second, or

3 the third category and who would be placed in which category. These are

4 quite major things, first, second, or third categories.

5 Q. Can you explain to Their Honours what you understand to mean by

6 each of these categories, so starting with category 1.

7 A. Category number 1, unfortunately, was the worst category because

8 on the 2nd of July or in early July, I was in that category. They were

9 unofficially called the "cooling list." So when Brk, the inmate -- the

10 camp warden's driver told me that and he explained to me what that meant,

11 it meant it would be those people who were going to be iced, [Realtime

12 transcript read in error "Geneva Convention"] and it was as if he had

13 saved me. The second category were the people who were supposed to

14 survive, who were supposed to serve out their sins that were ascribed to

15 them. The third category were people who were innocent, more innocent

16 than the previous group. They were supposed to go home. This is what we

17 heard from the guards, from the inmates.

18 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, what sort of people, though, would be put into this

19 category 1, this cold list, so to speak? What was the Serbs'

20 categorisation for category number 1?

21 A. According to what was seen at Omarska, when it was all over, you

22 could see who were those who disappeared. They were mostly people at

23 leading or key functions, intellectuals, the intellectual sector of the

24 Muslim society, wealthier people, as they described them people who were

25 well off. People who were in combat -- people who were declared to have

Page 11185

1 taken part in combat against them. That would be the first category.

2 Q. What would be the people in the second category? What would they

3 have done, to be put into that category?

4 A. The second category comprised people who obtained weapons, helped

5 out financially, and so on. That would be the second category, those who

6 were politically on the side of the SDA, who had declared themselves

7 politically on the side of the SDA.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour, I want to draw whoever's

10 attention needs to be drawn to page 54 line 14. There's a major error

11 there.


13 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 54, line 19. The words "Geneva Convention"

14 somehow got in there. They don't belong.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: The court reporters will listen to the tape to

16 fix that.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I also got the impression when he was saying

18 with regard to category 1, mentioning leading persons having key

19 functions, intellectuals -- intellectuals, Muslim wealthier people, did

20 you mention lawyers?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said intellectuals. I don't

22 know how it was interpreted. The intellectual section, so people who were

23 highly educated, doctors, engineers, lawyers, judges, directors. The

24 leading people at that time in Prijedor, and they disappeared over the

25 period of those few months.

Page 11186


2 Q. And the people that were put into category 3, what was the

3 categorisation for that category?

4 A. According to what we found out at Omarska, these were people who

5 were briefly interrogated or were not interrogated. They were not

6 interesting for official processing. These were mostly people from the

7 countryside who could not have done anything according to them. They were

8 officially uninteresting for processing as far as they were concerned. So

9 most often they were not even interrogated, or if they were, it was for a

10 few minutes. What are you doing here? Most often it would be for the

11 case to register that person again. These were people who according to

12 what was said were supposed to go home.

13 Q. But they stayed in the camp?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. I think you mentioned a moment ago you heard it was common

16 knowledge among the prisoners that these three categories, and I think you

17 said you heard it from other detainees and from the guards. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was the fate of the people put into category 1, i.e., those

21 who were classed as extremists? You mentioned the cold list a moment

22 ago.

23 A. Those people ended up with a beating or murder. I can't tell you

24 the manner of it because if a person who saw someone being murdered was

25 not able to tell anybody about it. So there were few who actually could

Page 11187

1 clandestinely see somebody being killed, but there was no murder being

2 committed openly. These people were taken in the direction of the red

3 house, behind the red house there was the mine area. There were no

4 streets. The bus stations weren't there. They ended up there, and it has

5 been ten years now, and they still haven't turned up. So it's an

6 assumption that they were killed.

7 Q. Could you turn to paragraph 6 of the document.

8 A. "Security services at the collection centre shall be provided by

9 the Omarska Police Station with an adequate number of policemen who shall

10 be present at the collection centre at all times and shall organise guard

11 duty according to the on duty/on call/off duty principle."

12 Q. And paragraph number 11.

13 A. "The security services coordinators shall submit a report" and I

14 can't see at what time. "On the preceding 24 hours to the chief of the

15 Prijedor public security station daily or immediately when the

16 circumstances allow no delay."

17 Q. And these security services coordinators are the three gentlemen

18 referred to in paragraph 3. Is that correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And paragraph number 12.

21 A. "The chief of security shall do the same with regard to the

22 operation of the security services and possible security problems."

23 Q. We can see from paragraphs 11 and 12 that these three

24 coordinators, and the chief of security, is to report to the chief of the

25 public security station on a daily basis. Is that correct?

Page 11188

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And we saw from decision number 19 in Exhibit Number P1268, which

3 was the Official Gazette of the Prijedor Municipality, the decision number

4 19 being a decision of the Crisis Staff of the 20th of May setting up the

5 Crisis Staff and giving a list of its members, that Mr. Drljaca, the chief

6 of the Prijedor Police Station, was a member of the Crisis Staff. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In your opinion, who, in the camp, was the most responsible for

10 the killings and the beatings which occurred?

11 A. Ranko Mijic.

12 Q. You mentioned in your Omarska testimony that one night around a

13 hundred people were killed. And this is at page 5195 of the testimony.

14 Do you know where these people were from?

15 A. Those people came from the hills, from Brdo, from Brdo. I

16 apologise. I'm trying to block these memories, but I think these were

17 people from Brdo who came after the cleansing of Brdo. I think that's

18 what they said, that they brought them and put them in the white house.

19 And that night was the first night that we heard shooting, and Brdo is

20 Hambarine, Rizvanovici, Biscani, and Jugovci.

21 Q. And I think you said that this happened towards the end of July.

22 Is that correct?

23 A. Yes. I just want to add something. My work colleague,

24 unfortunately, Muhamed Burazerovic, was taken to the white house that

25 night. He was taken to the white house together with the rest of them.

Page 11189

1 Q. Where is he from?

2 A. He is from Prijedor, and he is an employee of the secretariat of

3 the people's defence.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, it was not "he was taken" but he was

5 killed together with the rest of them.


7 Q. Halim Mesic, what was his fate, you mentioned his name earlier?

8 A. Halim Mesic spent most of the time with us in the glass house. I

9 remember that a son was born to him. He was told that a son had been born

10 to him at the end of June or the beginning of July and he wrote the date

11 of birth on his jeans. He worked with professor Majstorovic. I don't

12 know I wasn't really interested because nobody really talked much, we were

13 afraid that the walls had ears. He was in the glass house all the time.

14 After that, one night he was transferred by guards I don't remember them

15 anymore, they wanted to kill him allegedly he was in the attack on

16 Prijedor. He was their cousin. They took him to the white house and he

17 did say once that they were not going to beat him but that they would have

18 to kill him. But they beat him once. He survived that so that they would

19 not beat him any more. And then it was that the guards were coming out of

20 the white house. This was Halim. He was holding on to the door jam, and

21 then someone said leave him, and then the shooting began, and he was

22 killed in the very door. And if you looked at the white house, it was

23 bullet riddled, and it was riddled when Halim was killed. That's when it

24 was riddled with the bullets. He was not beaten. He died in the doorway

25 of the white house, and he was killed by fire from an automatic weapon.

Page 11190

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it's very remiss of me. I should

2 have showed you a photograph of the Omarska camp earlier. I am so

3 familiar with this case it just goes without saying.

4 Could the witness please be shown from the bundle of photographs

5 the photograph marked with the ERN number 00409592.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, Ms. Sutherland, the witness was shown a

7 photo of Omarska on Document P1.1.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. That's an aerial view.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Which we identified as number 6 -- photo number 6.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. That's an aerial. This is a

11 much closer photograph.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is going to be 1128.4.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the rear view model of Omarska. No?

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, 9592. It should be the front view.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Not according to the index that I have. 9592 is the

17 rear view. 9596 is the front view. Anyway, what I suggest is that you

18 show the witness both photos, and then -- anyway, they speak for

19 themselves. We can't really... As you say, it's probably right what you

20 said. It's the index which is wrong.


22 Q. Sir, can you just show Their Honours the buildings, point with the

23 pointer and name the buildings that are depicted in that photograph.

24 A. This building here, this part of the building, that's the

25 administrative building with the restaurant. This huge building is the

Page 11191

1 hangar. And this small house here we refer to it as the red house because

2 it was red. I think it was made of brick.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Okay. All right now. Because I was

4 just going to draw the attention of the technicians that we were watching

5 the witness on the monitor but not what he was pointing at.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, if you could, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the administration building

9 with the restaurant. The hangar. Red house, that's what we called it.

10 The red house because I think it was made of brick. And this here is the

11 famous white house.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So this photo 9592 represents front view of --

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I think it's just the

14 way -- if you look at it, if you were to approach the administration

15 building from the back, then obviously that's the front view when you are

16 looking towards the -- in the white house is in the distance. And I think

17 that's how the index has been done.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. There doesn't seem to be an entrance -- yes,

19 there is an entrance in the administration building.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the witness be shown the other photograph.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, the main entrance is on

22 this side here. This is the main entrance.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, where is the main entrance?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The main entrance to the Pista area,

25 and the main entrance to the building is this, what I am pointing at. I'm

Page 11192

1 talking about the entrance to the administration building. There was a

2 circular staircase. In the back, this is the back of the restaurant, the

3 house, where the rubbish dump was. This is the entrance to the mess, and

4 this is the restaurant.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, the entrance to the kitchen.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown ERN number 00409597.

7 Q. Sir, can you point to the entrance to the administration building.

8 A. Yes, I can. That's this area here. We used to --

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 A. We used to -- circular stairs, yes. This is the main entrance to

11 the ground floor, to the right. You go up to the first floor, and on the

12 left you enter the restaurant. Here is the toilet. And then if you head

13 straight, there's a corridor to the big dormitory that was used as a

14 depository for the clothes of the miners working in the Omarksa ore mine.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's on the ground floor.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: This would be Document 1128.5.




20 Q. You mentioned Mr. Mijic's office. Can you point in the direction

21 of where that was. Interrogation rooms, where were they?

22 A. The interrogation rooms were on one of the floors, but I can't

23 show you exactly where Mijic's was because I was only ever taken to the

24 first one -- excuse me, the second door on the left. That was inspector

25 Ratko Milosavljevic's room. And this room over here, that was Zeljko

Page 11193

1 Meakic's room because I went to that room once, this office here. I think

2 it was first -- the second on the right because I think the first on the

3 right was a toilet door and then the second door on the right, that was

4 Zeljko Meakic's office. He was the commander of the camp. And Ranko

5 Mijic's office, I'm not sure where it was but it was somewhere on the

6 first floor I think. I was never there.

7 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, can you please slow down for the interpreters.

8 Where were the interrogation rooms, on what floor?

9 A. On the first floor of the administration building. That's where

10 the interrogation rooms were.

11 Q. Can we please go back to photograph P1128.4, the view of the whole

12 camp. Can you point to where the glass house was situated.

13 A. You can only see a small portion of it here as the open part.

14 That's the glass house.

15 Q. Thank you. I've finished with the photographs for the moment.

16 Mr. Mesanovic, I asked you a moment ago who you thought was most

17 responsible for the killings and the beatings which occurred in the camp.

18 Why do you say that? Sorry, you answered that Ranko Mijic was the most

19 responsible. Why do you say that?

20 A. Simply because after the inspectors left, lists were left behind

21 to continue the work of the guards of the Omarska camp. In fact, those

22 lists were left to Zeljko Meakic because he was the final executor of

23 Mijic's daily errands, so he was the final executor of what Meakic would

24 do during the day between 8 and 5 in the afternoon. Zeljko Meakic would

25 then execute these chores, duties, afterwards, after 5.00 and until the

Page 11194

1 morning.

2 Q. What happened when these people -- what happened to these lists?

3 What was done with these lists?

4 A. I couldn't tell you exactly what was done with the lists, but I

5 knew that every time the guards would enter a room, as they didn't know,

6 they didn't have any records available as to who was where. And then they

7 would start from the first room with a piece of paper, and they would read

8 out a name. Maybe there were many names on a paper. But they only had a

9 slip of paper on which there was the first and last name of the guard who

10 would be called out after the inspector left. And if that guard would

11 return, we knew that maybe that was that. But if you suffered only a

12 single beating, you wouldn't be in the first category. But those who

13 never returned, we assumed that they would have been placed in the first

14 category because they never came back.

15 Q. Do you recall a number of people from Benkovac who were in the

16 white house?

17 A. Yes, I do. On the 24th of June when I was brought to Omarska, I

18 spent my first night in the white house. The second room on the right as

19 you go in. There were 43 people inside, plus the 8 of us who had just

20 arrived. That's 58 persons all together. I recognise Bahrija Foric, a

21 young man from Kamicani. My father worked as a teacher in Kamicani, so I

22 had known that lad from when I was -- we were both very young. He had

23 been badly beaten. And he was the only one who was allowed to lie down

24 because his kidneys had been broken. The 43 of them and two women, I know

25 of two women for sure, there was Sadeta Medunjanin, and they left -- were

Page 11195

1 set for an exchange in the direction of Bihac. So 43 men and two women.

2 I can't remember the last name of the other one, but the name of the first

3 woman was Sadeta Medunjanin. Because that day when they were taken away,

4 the local barber did one of those women's hair. And then one of the

5 women's husband was my secretary and the other's son lived in the white

6 house and all she said was, "maybe my nana will come out at some point."

7 I am headed for an exchange now, but we'll get back together at some point

8 later.

9 Q. Who was the person, the name of the secretary you worked for?

10 What was his name?

11 A. Mr. Becir Medunjanin.

12 Q. What was his son's name?

13 A. One of his sons was killed in Kozara. I don't know his name. And

14 the one who survived, his name is Anes Medunjanin.

15 Q. You mentioned in your Omarska testimony a visit to the camp by

16 international journalists, and this is at page 5198. And you were shown

17 three stills from a video. And they are exhibits now attached to your

18 testimony.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I wanted to play a short video of

20 the meeting between the international journalists and some persons from

21 the Serb authorities. And I wanted to ask the witness whether he could

22 identify any of the people that met with the international journalists.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, go ahead. In the meantime, could you give us a

24 number for the transcripts of the witness's testimony in the Omarska case,

25 Kvocka.

Page 11196

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: P1131. Your Honour, I did ask earlier in the

2 proceedings, but we moved on. So I apologise for that.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So P1131. Okay.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the video be played, that's V000-1402,

5 without the sound.

6 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, could you look at this videotape, and tell me

7 whether you recognise any of the gentlemen on the videotape.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if this would be marked for identification as

9 P1132.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop, stop. Yes. This person here

12 turned away, that his Simo Drljaca, and this person here is Milomir

13 Stakic. Can you just rewind a bit because I think I recognised another

14 person. No, no. There's only Simo Drljaca and Milomir Stakic. Simo

15 Drljaca to the left with a man in a red T-shirt.


17 Q. You mentioned a man called Milomir Stakic.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What does he look like?

20 A. Maybe -- it's not a very polite way to describe him, but he's

21 running bald and he's plumpy. At least he was at that time.

22 Q. And he was to the -- there is a person with a pink top on. The

23 next person standing --

24 A. The man greeting the person in the pink T-shirt is Simo Drljaca.

25 That's the man standing next to the man wearing glasses. The man wearing

Page 11197

1 white and glasses, that's not Simo Drljaca. But the face, you can see to

2 the right is the man with the glasses, and to the left is Simo Drljaca.

3 Q. And the man to the right --

4 A. To the right, on the right shoulder of the man wearing the white

5 T-shirt, so that's the man with the glasses wearing the white T-shirt, so

6 just behind his right shoulder we can see Milomir Stakic.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. If the video can be played.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. Here you get a much clearer

10 image. This is Dr. Kovacevic, Milomir Stakic, Simo Drljaca. I think

11 that's Nada Balaban over there. But I'm not sure. She was a teacher of

12 English but I can't be sure really.

13 At the head of the table, she has her right hand on her -- left

14 hand on her chin, but her hand is covering her face now so I can't see her

15 clearly. If you can just rewind a bit. All right.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: We can play the video through.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we continue, please. No, no the

19 one pointing the finger, that's Milomir Stakic. The man smoking next to

20 him is Dr. Kovacevic. Yes, yes, it's clear now. That's professor Nada

21 Balaban, she is a teacher of English. I know this lad, his face is

22 familiar but I can't remember his name. I knew him well. It's just that

23 I can't remember his name. This military officer here, I don't know him.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Pause there.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

Page 11198


2 Q. You're saying it's Dr. Stakic on the left --

3 A. Dr. --

4 Q. Sitting next to Dr. Kovacevic?

5 A. Yes, yes, next to Dr. Kovacevic, that's right. And then in the

6 upper right corner of the screen, I see Nada Balaban, she is a teacher of

7 English.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can we play the video again. And can we pause it

9 at 2.47.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Or fast forward to 2.47.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Simo Drljaca is back to his place at

13 the table.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can we keep playing the video.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: And Drljaca is sitting to --

17 A. To the right of Mrs. Balaban. He just put his hands on the table

18 now.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Pause there.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first man in the upper right

21 corner, that's Simo Drljaca. Just below the ICTY sign.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. And could the video be played further

23 on.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the foreign journalists are at the top of the

Page 11199

1 video. Could the video be stopped. Thank you.

2 Could the next video be played, and that is without the sound as

3 well. And that is V000-0401. And if that could be marked for

4 identification as P1133.

5 If it could be forwarded to 1.53.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Omarska. That's the

7 entrance to the restaurant. On the left, there is the glass house, and

8 on the right-hand side there was a toilet.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Continue playing.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Still the restaurant. I don't know

12 his name.


14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The journalist from Radio Prijedor.


16 Q. You mean you don't know the person who was carrying the automatic

17 weapon?

18 A. Yes, I think his name was Drazenko or something like that. But he

19 was in charge of the restaurant from the outside. But as the journalists

20 were here, he came, in and then this journalist, I can't see him clearly,

21 the bearded one, that's Rade Mutic, Radio Prijedor journalist.

22 Q. The one with the camera gear or something in his hand? If the

23 video can be played --

24 A. Military uniform, beard, and a camera, I think. I have no idea

25 really. I think that must be a camera.

Page 11200

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've never eaten this, at least not

3 there. That was for this particular day. And you never ate at the

4 table. You just get the food quickly and one eighth of bread and you

5 would be sent running out. And I might be somewhere here. Stop. Can you

6 just rewind a bit, please.

7 This is outside the glass house. That's the corridor outside the

8 glass house. Stop.


10 Q. That's looking into the glass house where you were detained?

11 A. From the restaurant looking from the restaurant into the glass

12 house. Forward, please. Stop.

13 This part here, around this column, because this is the end, left

14 of here is the end of the glass house. I was the fifth from the wall to

15 the right as we're looking. I see this should be Serif Kadic. And then

16 next to him is --

17 Q. Mr. Mesanovic, this is -- these details of who is in the glass

18 house and where they are sitting is in your Omarska testimony, so we will

19 not go through that again.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: And for Your Honours, that is at page 5198 and

21 following.

22 Could the video please be played.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the way out from the

25 restaurant, the exit. Stop. This is Simo Drljaca and Nada Balaban in the

Page 11201

1 chief's office. Either Mijic's office or Zeljko Meakic's office. You

2 can't tell.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the video please be played.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Simo Drljaca. Nada Balaban, teacher

6 of English.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the video could be fast forwarded to when they

8 are outside the camp. Stop.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Krkan. That's the main

10 entrance, the stairway up there. And then these are people running back

11 from the restaurant back to the hangar. And these other people are

12 waiting for them to come out so that they could run into the restaurant in

13 groups of 30, and then this is Krkan again. This is Nada Balaban, Simo

14 Drljaca. I don't know these other two.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Actually, could you please rewind the tape to the

16 start of this conversation. And if the sound could be turned on.

17 "SPEAKER: It, too, was under heavy guard. And we asked to be

18 allowed to look inside. But in spite of promises of openness from the

19 Serb-Bosnian leader Dr. Karadzic we were told we could see no more.

20 "SPEAKER: Why are you not fulfilling Dr. Karadzic's promise to us?

21 "SPEAKER: He promised us something else, and said you can do this

22 and this. And that, and not that.

23 "SPEAKER: Our armed escort made it clear --"

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Pause there, and turn the volume off.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop, stop. The man to the right

Page 11202

1 wearing glasses, and his left hand braced, that's Zeljko Meakic. And to

2 his left is Simo Drljaca with a Heckler gun in his hand. I don't know the

3 man in the white shirt.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. If the video could be played again.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: And stop. Could the witness please be shown

7 Exhibit P1320.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, I was going to suggest, but I need

9 feedback from the interpreters in particular. If we could stop for about

10 5 to 10 minutes, giving the technicians the opportunity to change the

11 tape, and then proceed and stop at 6.00. In other words, we will break

12 for about 5 to 10 minutes now, and then we'll have about a quarter of an

13 hour left.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: One of the booths want a 15-minute break.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: 15-minute break, then we have to stop. 15 minutes.

16 How much more time do we have left? We won't resume afterwards.

17 I mean at 6.00, we finish. In other words --

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's fine. So --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So we stop for about 5 to 10 minutes. And we'll

20 resume from that. Because 15 minutes would leave us 5 minutes then.

21 Thank you.

22 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you interpreters, thank you technicians, and

25 thank you, of course, everyone else. Let's proceed. We have a good 15

Page 11203

1 minutes, and then we'll bring it to an end.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Just before we play the video, I want to go back

3 to one thing to clear up what may be a mistranslation or it may have been

4 what you said.

5 Q. You talked about -- you told the Court today that you believe that

6 interrogators would categorise the detainees into three categories. You

7 also told us that many of those were placed into the first category. And

8 those people would be killed. After Ranko Mijic and the other inspectors

9 were responsible for making these decisions or making the lists, who

10 actually carried out the killings? You stated that Meakic was the final

11 executor of Mijic's work. What did you mean by final executor?

12 A. The executor was Zeljko Meakic. He's the one who executed all of

13 the orders.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the very last part

15 of what the witness said.


17 Q. I'm sorry, sir, the interpreter didn't fully hear your last -- the

18 sentence of your last answer. Could you repeat it.

19 A. The end executor of everything that the inspectors did in the

20 course of the day was Zeljko Meakic. I said whether this was the first,

21 second, or third category, depends -- the first category ended in murder;

22 the second category most often ended in a beating or possibly with the

23 backup of someone from outside of the camp, money had to be brought in in

24 order to save his life. They had to provide a sum of 10.000 German

25 marks or something. These were wealthier people. So it was some kind of

Page 11204

1 financial assistance. Mostly we're talking about money. The third

2 category was not touched and was not interrogated. The main executor

3 after Ranko Mijic was Zeljko Meakic. He was the ultimate one. He placed

4 a stamp on everything.

5 Q. When you say executor, do you mean executioner or executor?

6 A. No, I wouldn't say that he was the one who directly said it.

7 There were people who were subordinated to him. He would issue further

8 instructions, notes for murder, beating, or for money because the notes

9 came from the top. They didn't come from me. They came from the chief.

10 Q. And who would carry out these killings and beatings?

11 A. The end executor, the ones who did the task in a concrete way,

12 were the guards.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we please have the video played, V000-0401,

15 continuing from after the Omarska camp. Sorry, if you could just pause

16 there.

17 Q. Sir, after you left the Omarska camp in early August, where were

18 you taken?

19 A. I was brought to Trnopolje.

20 Q. And I think in your Omarska transcript, you said that you stayed

21 there for approximately one day. And then you left the Trnopolje camp.

22 Is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we please play the videotape, without the

25 sound.

Page 11205

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. This is Trnopolje. Continue.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Please continue.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is still Trnopolje.

6 This is still Trnopolje.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this excerpt is about three

8 minutes.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is still Trnopolje. Stop.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could you pause there.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. This is the Dom, the Dom, the

12 cultural hall in Trnopolje. And this part here, excuse me, I apologise.

13 The small building on the right side in the background behind the people

14 who were standing at the wire fence is the old part of the school. That's

15 where the shop was. And in this part here, in the very corner, there's a

16 basket net, hoop. And this is where my father had his classroom. And

17 it's an irony that I spent the night after 20 years in the same store

18 where I used to come as a child to see my father. This was a sports hall,

19 and the culture hall. In the small part, there were classrooms, and the

20 teachers' apartments.

21 You may continue.


23 Q. The small building you pointed to had a red, orangy coloured

24 roof. Is that correct?

25 A. I had a black and white image. I didn't have one in colour.

Page 11206

1 [Videotape played]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. This is -- this young man is

3 Fikret. I don't know his last name. I know he was with me at Omarska.

4 This is on our arrival to Trnopolje. The first group was released before

5 us, before we were released. A couple of days before Omarska was closed,

6 and then some were taken to Trnopolje.

7 Please continue.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is still Trnopolje.

10 Stop. We called this person "Kobas." He's a medical technician.

11 We called him one wing, Krlac. He had only one arm. He would come to

12 Omarska frequently with Dr. Ivic. But not to treat people. I don't know

13 why they came. They were just in passing.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Please continue.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. This is -- this man who just

17 came in behind this man with one arm, this is Dr. Idriz. I don't know his

18 last name. He was at Trnopolje already. When I came there, he was with

19 the vet, Azra, Azra Strikovic. This is Dr. Idriz. There was another

20 doctor with him. Dr. Mensur Kusuran, who was moved to Kozarac, and he was

21 moved to Trnopolje in July. He's the only doctor who survived from

22 Omarska.

23 Please continue.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is still Dr. Idriz who, in the

Page 11207

1 forefront of the image, he was in charge of Trnopolje.

2 I think this is the sports hall, the gymnasium in Trnopolje. But

3 I'm not sure. Stop.

4 In the new school in Trnopolje. Stop. This is the SUP building

5 in Prijedor. I don't know who the people are who are standing in front of

6 it.

7 Please continue.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stop. This window here, I

10 apologise, the first, second, third, fourth, the fifth window from the

11 left to the right is the window of the office where I used to work.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the video can be stopped, thank you.

13 Q. Just to finish up with Trnopolje, before we break for today, when

14 you arrived at Trnopolje, was there a fence? Was the camp fenced in any

15 way?

16 A. When we arrived at Trnopolje, we were simply unloaded across the

17 road from the house where the Red Cross was. So we were taken inside

18 behind the wire fence where there were two school benches and there were

19 two inmates who were taking our names down. They were inside, behind the

20 wire fence. We went out on to the street. We went into the -- through

21 the main entrance. Inside, there were two desks, and there were two

22 workers, two inmates representing the Red Cross because they were the ones

23 who took our names down.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. Your Honour, if you want to break

25 now.

Page 11208

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You have been most cooperative,

2 Ms. Sutherland. I thank you. So we will leave it at that for today. We

3 resume tomorrow. How much time left you reckon?

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry. I revised the exhibits, and I intend

5 showing the witness ten documents which we will get through very quickly,

6 and then there's one other document which doesn't have an exhibit number

7 which has been disclosed.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So tomorrow, you will start the

9 cross-examination pretty early I would imagine, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I would think so. May I mention one thing very

11 quickly.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I was talking with the Registrar just a moment ago

14 about this problem. For some reason Defence counsel are not on the

15 distribution for the calendar that is updated every week so we never know

16 for sure what's going on.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Why is it?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: And I don't know why that happens, but I thought we

19 were sitting Monday I thought we were sitting in the afternoon. I found

20 out at the last minute we had been moved to the morning. Because the

21 schedule I had said afternoon. The schedule I have says we're not sitting

22 on Friday but I heard a rumour yesterday that we are, so I don't know. We

23 make plans based on the schedule we have.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I fully understand. I will try and find out if we

25 could find a remedy for this. I don't know what the practice is frankly.

Page 11209

1 I mean, I've never taken an interest to find out exactly who was on the

2 distribution list and who isn't. You know, usually when I get something,

3 it shows a long list, and I always ask why do we have this long list. But

4 I never went through the list myself.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I think you have considerable influence here,

6 Your Honour. I think you could probably get us added to the list.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But the situation as it is now, today is the 30th.

8 Today is the 30th. Tomorrow we are sitting in the afternoon. Right? In

9 Courtroom III. Then Friday, the idea is to sit if necessary, if there is

10 no objection forthcoming. But we have allotted Courtroom III, allocated

11 Courtroom III for us if we sit on Friday. In the morning. And that would

12 in the morning.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, that would be because on the later

14 schedule I know I received on the 18th of October, that's the latest

15 schedule I am aware of, it had this Friday to be confirmed. We were

16 always trying to catch up days. Obviously Mr. Ackerman didn't have a copy

17 of that schedule so he didn't know this date is to be confirmed on

18 Friday. Hopefully with the witness tomorrow, we will certainly finish

19 Mr. Mesanovic, with the next witness, she is going to be another Rule 92

20 bis and some limited questions, and I don't know that Mr. Ackerman's

21 cross-examination would take a long time. So hopefully we are going to be

22 able to finish her tomorrow so we wouldn't have to sit on Friday.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: If we could do that, it would be better. I leave it

24 in your hands. Perhaps you could take five minutes tomorrow morning or

25 now after the session and sort it out. To us, it doesn't really make a

Page 11210

1 difference. We'll try to accommodate both of you as much as we could.

2 Have a nice evening. See you tomorrow afternoon. Thank you.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

4 at 6.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

5 the 31st day of October, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.