Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11390

1 Tuesday, 5 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar, call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you hear me

9 in a language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

11 I can hear you and I understand you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.

13 Appearances for the Prosecution.

14 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner and Ann Sutherland assisted by Denise

15 Gustin, case manager, good morning Your Honours.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

17 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

18 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, I'm

19 Milan Trbojevic, attorney at law, together with me is lead counsel,

20 Mr. John Ackerman and Marela Jevtovic our legal assistants.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you. Shall we go --

22 anything before we go into closed session?

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour there is one matter I want to raise

24 having yesterday but at the end of the whole session having only had a

25 chance yesterday to read Your Honour's ruling on the disclosure of Rule 68

Page 11391

1 material, there are a couple of factual mistakes which I ought to correct

2 but I'll do that if I may like Mr. Ackerman yesterday if we adjourn at --

3 adjourn -- stop the witness at about 25 to 2.00.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And from your part? Okay? So Madam

5 Registrar, could we go into closed session, please?

6 [Closed session]

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Page 11466

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19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's just in relation to Your Honour's

22 ruling which as I say I only had a chance to read yesterday, of the 30th

23 of October in relation to Mr. Ackerman's motion.

24 Your Honours, in paragraph 11, stated that we had failed to

25 disclose the Kondic Rule 68 material because it had only come up in a

Page 11467

1 search we were doing on Prijedor material. And it refers to the

2 discussion in the unofficial transcript as a footnote. Your Honour, all I

3 want to say is this: In fact I understand why whoever was trying to

4 summarise this made that error but I never said that. What I was saying

5 was that we had unfortunately delayed in the disclosure and I accepted

6 full responsibility for it because the investigator who was present had

7 been taken off that disclosure to deal with the Prijedor Rule 68 searches

8 that were going but it wasn't that it came up in that. We knew it was

9 there. It just fell through the cracks. But I felt it wasn't right to

10 take credit for something that wasn't actually right or something that I

11 didn't say. That's the first thing.

12 Your Honour, the references to the transcript page numbers are

13 right but if one reads it you'll see that's not what I said.

14 And secondly, Your Honour, I think again there was a lot of

15 discussion and I was referring to a table. Your Honours were under the

16 impression that there were only two additional interviews which had not

17 had Rule 68 disclosed. That is in fact incorrect. And I think again

18 there was an elision. Your Honour I referred to a number of Prijedor

19 interviews that had been conducted in connection with the Stakic case and

20 then I referred separately to what I described as confidential, as which I

21 said there were a couple. In actual fact, we having now, and we are more

22 or less completing the exercise to comply with Your Honour's order. There

23 are a further, we worked this out yesterday -- where is my note? There

24 were five people interviewed in connection with the Stakic case, of which

25 disclosure I think has already been -- there is just one more to come but

Page 11468

1 four out of the five have already been disclosed and then there were

2 altogether, including interviews conducted with persons in respect of the

3 military prosecutions, but there were a total of 12 altogether. So

4 those -- there were 12 people who the Defence had not had anything from

5 but it's been disclosed at the moment, but again, I didn't want Your

6 Honours to feel in some way you were being misled. I'm afraid it was

7 partly the way matters developed during the course of that hearing.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any comments from your part, Mr. Ackerman?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, she's absolutely correct with regard to the

10 first part. That's exactly what she said.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Second part, the more the better.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The important thing is that the whole matter is

14 being taken care of. That's most important. Thank you for clarifying

15 certain points, Ms. Korner.

16 So I think we can rise. Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour I just have a sort of nagging sense in

18 the back of my mind that there is a motion or two outstanding, the

19 Prosecutor has filed, that I have not responded to, and I would like to go

20 home and check that and have your leave to file a response in the event

21 that I might be a day or two late.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I also would like you to address your attention

23 to some motions that have been filed by Defence counsel for General Talic,

24 some of which I am positive have -- are not to be discussed in this trial

25 or by this Trial Chamber or decided by this Trial Chamber, but there is

Page 11469

1 one or two that probably need to be discussed and decided upon by this

2 Trial Chamber. So I would like you, if you have been served, the

3 Prosecution has filed responses to them. I don't know whether you have

4 been served with any of these as Defence counsel in the Brdjanin case. At

5 least there is one of which I'm positive that you must have been served

6 with.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: There is one that involves certain evidence -- to

8 prohibit certain evidence in the Brdjanin case.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: There is one which requests this Trial Chamber to

10 authorise the release to General Talic of the basically the proceedings in

11 this case.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honours, as we say in Texas, I don't

13 have a dog in either one of those fights so I really don't plan to answer

14 either one of them unless you actually ask me too. I don't really have

15 an answer.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm just addressing you since you mentioned pending

17 motions I'm addressing you to these in case you require some sort of

18 debate.

19 MS. KORNER: I think the only one that was filed within this

20 constituted Trial Chamber is the one about the release of material.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so, yes.

22 MS. KORNER: And Your Honours have seen our response and we have

23 nothing further to add. I think outstanding is our application under Rule

24 92.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: There is another one, Ms. Korner, which is a little

Page 11470

1 bit of an anomalous kind of request, in the sense that it is filed in

2 Talic's case but asking that Trial Chamber to order this Trial Chamber not

3 to allow certain questions or allow certain evidence to be brought forth.

4 MS. KORNER: That's already been dealt with in this Trial Chamber

5 as a result of the application which I think we said.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But any way, please do whatever you have

7 that you need to be debated here, do let us know and we'll find the time.

8 Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Is there any update on the progress on a ruling

10 regarding Ms. Maglov.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We talked about it earlier on today. We are dealing

12 with it but, there is an order of priority and -- I'm being told also

13 judicial notice that's an important one.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: That's the one that I was kind of thinking about in

15 the back of my mind.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: You need to answer that.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: I will answer that probably today, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The Ms. Maglov decision we will come down with when

19 we really find the time to give a well-reasoned decision.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, let me just say this to give you some

21 sense that there might be a matter of urgency with regard to. There is

22 nobody that has more knowledge of the documents in this case up until the

23 time she left the case, than she does, and if she is to be cleared of

24 everything, then I might very well want to have her as a legal assistant

25 or something, because she would be great assistance to me.

Page 11471

1 JUDGE AGIUS: There is also the other possibility, Mr. Ackerman,

2 and I don't think that possibility would help you much. So let us take

3 our time.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Take all the time you want, Your Honour. I just

5 wanted to make sure that you understood that part of it. I certainly see

6 the other side of it too.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour the last thing Your Honour indicated you

8 wanted a meeting and I don't think you indicated which day or what time.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going -- in fact, I was going to end with

10 this -- end up with this. I was going to suggest tomorrow for a meeting

11 during one of the breaks we will have a half an hour break, either the

12 first one or the second one, and we will meet in my Chambers together with

13 Mr. Rohde and sort out the problem of the hours involved in -- or needed

14 for the proper preparation of this case following the disclosure of tapes

15 and printed material.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: We probably also would need to get Ms. Monica

17 Martinez involved since she is taking over that position from Mr. Rohde.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: But Mr. Rohde has already advised me on that and so

19 I'm perfectly aware of it. I'm also informed that there have been

20 informal consultations between you and Mr. Rohde already and that Mr.

21 Rohde has indicated to you what he would be prepared to concede. In any

22 case, I don't think we can even think of -- conceive of a meeting, of such

23 meeting, leaving out Mr. Rohde. Ms. Martinez of course will be present

24 too.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Please don't hear me as having said that we should

Page 11472

1 leave Mr. Rohde out. He should definitely be there.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, so Ms. Chuqing could you inquire about the

3 availability of them for tomorrow. If it's not convenient for them, any

4 of the two normal breaks, that is the one at 10.30 and the other one at

5 12.30 then if they have other suggestions we could adjust the time of our

6 sitting accordingly and have a break when it's convenient for them. Yes.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: One other brief thing I've been told that we are

8 meeting Monday morning at 9.00 and that that's our schedule for Monday and

9 in view of that I want to make -- to schedule some important matters for

10 Monday afternoon. If that's the way it's going to be, please don't change

11 it because what I want to do Monday afternoon is very important.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Monday we are meeting in the morning, yes, 11 of

13 November.

14 MS. KORNER: And Tuesday we are moving to court II.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Tuesday we are moving to Courtroom II.

16 MS. KORNER: Also in the morning.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's in the afternoon, Tuesday.

18 MS. KORNER: It's in the afternoon is it?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: If we can move it in the morning then it will be

20 much better because I'm flying back home on that day. So we could

21 actually move the sitting to the morning, it will be better.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes, because the rate we are going I

23 don't think we are going to get beyond there witness this week. And the

24 witness 7.45 who is actually arriving today but to listen to his tapes.

25 But if possible, we ought to be able to complete in those two days so he

Page 11473

1 doesn't have to hang around or be sent back because that's what happened

2 in Stakic.


4 MR. ACKERMAN: We will definitely not complete his

5 cross-examination in that time. We won't even get close. We might get a

6 direct done but cross-examination is going to be, who knows, five days?

7 I don't know, something like that.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks. Ms. Chuqing? So we'll meet tomorrow

9 morning at 9.00.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

11 1.51 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

12 the 6th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.