1 Wednesday, 6 November 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is case number IT-99-36-T,
7 the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Are you hearing
9 me in a language that you can understand?
10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your
11 Honours. Yes, I can hear you and I understand you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.
13 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner assisted by Denise Gustin, case
14 manager. Good morning, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.
16 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
17 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Milan Trbojevic, good morning,
18 Your Honours. Mr. Ackerman will arrive after the break. We have with us
19 our assistant, Marela Jevtovic.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you.
21 Any preliminaries?
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are a couple of first of all.
23 I've given to the Defence this morning, and I hope Your Honours -- no it's
24 going to be handed to Your Honours now, I think, is it?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't received any documents.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours will recall that I spent sometime
2 yesterday asking -- are we in open session? Yes, we are -- the witness
3 about a meeting in Doboj, and you will recall that he had some difficulty
4 in remembering who was there. After court yesterday, I made some
5 inquiries as to whether we had any other documents within the system that
6 might assist. And, Your Honours, what it produced was these: A newspaper
7 article from a newspaper which I may say I've not heard of before, called
8 Derventski List, I think it's published in the municipality of Derventa.
9 And it's dated the 13th of February and says last weekend but by a process
10 of elimination and by the consent, one can see it's referring to that
11 meeting. Should there be any doubt, we also found -- and this comes from
12 the Derventski List is open source material; in other words, it's a
14 The second document came from the Banja Luka collection, which was
15 disclosed in its entirety to the Defence on CD-ROM and some considerable,
16 almost years ago now, I think, but it's not one that we've actually
17 formally produced before. But, Your Honours, I would wish to use them
18 this morning with the witness just to see if he can refresh his memory
19 from this, unless there is an objection.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection on your part, Mr. Trbojevic?
21 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] No, none.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So that's the first.
23 MS. KORNER: That's the first thing.
24 Your Honour, the second one relates to witnesses.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Permission granted, by the way.
1 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record.
3 MS. KORNER: It relates to the order of witnesses, which I'm
4 afraid we've been changing over and over again, really at the request of
5 the Defence because they don't want major witnesses together. But you
6 will recall yesterday, when I dealt with Witness 7.45, the gentleman who
7 is going to be testifying for the fifth time, Mr. Ackerman said that he
8 was going to be spending some five days in cross-examination of him.
9 Well, Your Honour, it may be I'll have something to say about that
10 at the stage when we get to. But the fact is even if that's
11 overemphasising or exaggerating how long it will take, we couldn't
12 complete him in Monday and Tuesday of next week. I shall be short in
13 chief, because as I say everything is covered in the Stakic transcript.
14 So -- and what happened when he testified in Stakic was that he had to go
15 away and come back again because there was a break. I think that's highly
16 undesirable. So we are not going to call him next week.
17 I told Mr. Ackerman about that yesterday afternoon, and he was
18 content with that. I said we were going it try and replace him with a
19 much shorter witness, and again he told me that he didn't have any
20 objection, provided there weren't a great many transcripts.
21 We are attempting to get hold of a short witness, who has only
22 testified once before or possibly not at all. There are a few who have
23 never testified. We are waiting this morning for confirmation who that
24 witness will be and we'll inform the Defence as soon as we know, and Your
25 Honours. If we can't, it may be that we'll have a problem on Monday and
1 Tuesday filling -- using the time for any witnesses but that probably
2 won't upset the Defence too much because it will give them extra time.
3 Your Honour, the second matter goes back to the question of the
4 transcripts, and this really is because it's an administrative nightmare
5 to copy the huge numbers of transcripts and exhibits and whatever, and not
6 to mention the expense. Yesterday -- no, Monday, I raised with Your
7 Honours the problem that I was foreseeing with the agreement made with
8 Mr. Ackerman that it hadn't been our intention - and it's my fault for not
9 making the wording clearer - to rely on every single transcript merely the
10 one that covered where a witness, like 7.45, had testified so often. The
11 one that covered all the areas, and in his case, that's his Stakic
13 Your Honours, I think were going to rule on the application and
14 I've been asked by those who have the dealings with this copying whether
15 Your Honours would make a ruling one way or another because if all we are
16 relying on is the transcript, for example, in Stakic, then it only means
17 copying that transcript for everybody. And if Mr. Ackerman wants to
18 cross-examine or make the other transcripts, then of course we are do the
19 copying necessary, but at the moment we are copying everything in
20 advance. So that's the situation.
21 I see Mr. Ackerman is going to be coming later so it may be -- if
22 that could be passed on to him in the break --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: As far as we are concerned, Ms. Korner, the position
24 is very -- is a very simple one. We would only be interested in having a
25 copy of the transcript that you're going to make use of.
1 MS. KORNER: Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Under the rules.
3 MS. KORNER: Right. Well in that case --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: The rest we don't need, unless we are specifically
5 referred to those other transcripts, either the way Mr. Ackerman himself
6 suggested yesterday, which frankly, if you ask me, could happen in one or
7 two instances but not necessarily in the case of each and every witness
8 who has testified before. Unless we are -- we need to refer to those
9 other transcripts, we don't need them.
10 MS. KORNER: That's what I thought, Your Honour. It seems to me
11 eminently sensible that unless they are brought in in some way or other,
12 what we rely on we will make an exhibit and provide to Your Honours. And
13 if other transcripts are brought in, then we will make the appropriate
15 JUDGE AGIUS: There is also the problem of space in our chambers.
16 MS. KORNER: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Because with Hadzihasanovic, with Mrksic, as one of
18 the permanent judges in Trial Chamber II, I receive all the documentation
19 coming in during the pre-trial stage of the other cases. So I have
20 folders and folders and folders cropping up from everywhere. You know,
21 it's becoming impossible. So this already -- this case is already
22 impossible with the huge amount of documentation. So the less
23 documents -- I would have preferred in fact, were it not for the fact that
24 we need them here, to have everything on CD-ROM. It's much easier.
25 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I know that -- this is slightly
1 off the point, but I know there are discussions going on at the moment
2 between the various parties to these trials as to trying to produce some
3 sort of electronic format for all these documents and statements and the
4 like. And it's clear -- this trial I think has shown because it's the
5 first really major document trial to have taken place exactly how onerous
6 it can be. But, Your Honour, in that case that's what we will do, and I'm
7 grateful to Your Honour force that indication.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So can we now go into closed session and
9 bring in the witness?
10 [Closed session]
13 Pages 11480-11559 – redacted – closed session
17 [Open session]
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I told that I did my response to the
19 judicial notice motion and it's filed.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Although it says the date on it is in January.
22 So --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't seen it.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: I suspect that the correct date will be put on it
25 by somebody. The other motion that I need to deal with is -- it's a
1 motion of 21 October dealing with Rule 92 bis Prijedor. It's quite a long
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I'm meeting actually one of my legal assistants
4 immediately after the sitting on it.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: I was working on it a bit yesterday afternoon and
6 this morning, and what I would like Your Honours to allow me to do - and
7 I'll explain why - is to facilitate matters to reply basically witness by
8 witness rather than wait until I've completed all the work I have to do to
9 reply, and here is why: If I take the first one, 7.138, it is alleged
10 that he fits under Rule 92 because his testimony will only corroborate
11 that of Witness 7.78, 7.226, 7.225, 7.46, 7.3, 7.134. That means in order
12 to just answer with that -- with regard to that one witness, I need to
13 read the transcripts of those others.
14 Now, some I have read, some I have not. And what I tell you -- I
15 will tell you is that I will work through this as rapidly as I possibly
16 can, but it's your order that I must file a reasoned objection if I'm
17 going to object to being Rule 92. To do that, I have to do this kind of
18 preparation. And if there is a better way, that Your Honours suggest for
19 me to respond to, I would be happy to do it. But that seems to me in
20 terms of just how to move through it, efficiently and rapidly, that would
21 be the way to do it.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, I take it from what Madam
23 Richterova said during the formal meeting that we had in my chambers that
24 tomorrow morning we are to expect a revised list --
25 MS. KORNER: Order, that's right.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I would -- first, let me give you the floor
2 to respond to what Mr. Ackerman said.
3 MS. KORNER: I don't think there is -- I don't think we have any
4 strong feelings about it in the sense that although we hoped to complete
5 the Prijedor part before Christmas, it clearly is going to go on beyond
6 Christmas, though I hope not by much. All I can say is this: That none
7 of these selected witnesses give any direct testimony against
8 Mr. Brdjanin. If that had been the case, we would have called them.
9 For example, the witness that he's just picked on, 7.138, is
10 someone who was in Keraterm and that's -- he's just supporting what is
11 effectively, I don't think, argued any longer that Keraterm was a deeply
12 unpleasant place. But as far as we are concerned, unless Mr. Ackerman
13 thinks it is likely that any of these crime-base witnesses will be
14 required to be brought here for cross-examination, which is effectively
15 what we are doing with most of the witnesses, effectively they are
16 transcripts plus cross, then we don't mind one way or the other when he
17 gets through it. But I think it's mainly those that we will have to
18 notify that they are required to attend.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, yeah, there are some already, Your Honour,
20 that I'm absolutely going to request attend and I already know why, but I
21 want to do the rest of the reading just so that I can give you a reasoned
23 JUDGE AGIUS: As I said, I have someone going through the motion
24 and preparing a memo. I personally am not exactly familiar with the
25 details of the motion as yet. I will be discussing it first time with my
1 legal assistant soon after this sitting. And I suppose I should be in the
2 position to form an opinion pretty soon, probably by tomorrow, and then
3 we'll see.
4 We could also perhaps, if there are -- if there are some witnesses
5 about whom your position -- you already know what position you're going to
6 take, then perhaps we can do it in stages. You can file, without further
7 delay, a response with regard to -- a reply with regard to those witnesses
8 and there will be, of course, time to file further response with regard to
9 the others. We could do it that way as well. But I myself am not exactly
10 familiar with the details yet. I still have to go through the list and
11 see what's cooking there.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: What you just suggested is --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can work it out that way. Where you know
14 you're not going to object or where you know that you are going to just
15 ask for the presence of the witness for cross-examination purposes, I
16 think there is no reason why you should delay filing a reply. Where there
17 is reason for such a delay because you need to go deeper into the matter
18 and read transcripts, then obviously, I mean, the Chamber is not going to
19 tell you no.
20 All right. So we will resume tomorrow morning, 9.00 in this same
21 hall. Thank you.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
23 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
24 the 7th day of November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.