Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12732

1 Monday, 13 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, could you please call the

6 case?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me in a

10 language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I

12 can hear you and understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: The problem is that I can't hear you. Yes,

14 appearances for the Prosecution?

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it's Joanna Korner and

16 Nicholas Koumjian assisted by Denise Gustin case manager this morning.

17 Your Honours, may I wish you all a Happy New Year.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you. I wished you all a Happy New Year

19 before I left and I repeat it and hope it will be a good year for

20 everyone. I started it off really well, becoming a grandpa yesterday.

21 So Mr. Ackerman appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning and Happy New Year, Your Honours. I'm

23 John Ackerman, and I'm here with Milan Trbojevic and Marela Jevtovic.

24 Nice to see you all again.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and Happy New Year to you too.

Page 12733

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there are I'm afraid a number of matters

2 that have arisen over the break, administratively. Can I say this, Your

3 Honour? I'm very anxious that this morning's witness finishes because

4 he's got to potentially appear, reappear in the Stakic case this

5 afternoon, so I wonder if I could delay discussion of those matters until

6 tomorrow?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, actually, before I even hear Mr. Ackerman, I

8 had a short meeting with one of the senior members of my staff this

9 morning, and I asked him to pass on a message at the right moment to both

10 Defence and Prosecution that it will definitely be the practice that we

11 will be adopting this year that administrative matters, unless they are

12 really important and urgent, will only be dealt with at the end of the

13 sitting, rather than at the beginning. So that we avoid keeping the

14 witnesses waiting sometimes for half an hour, three-quarters of an hour

15 and so on. So unless you have something really urgent or unless

16 Mr. Ackerman has really got asking really urgent to press forward, we will

17 leave the administrative matters.

18 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, in theory that's a wonderful idea

19 except nobody -- and I say this I'm as much to blame as anyone, nobody

20 ever estimates correctly how long anything will take so asking to leave

21 ten minutes -- I think, Your Honour, tomorrow morning, it would be better

22 because they are really matters we need to clear up quite soon. They

23 relate to matters like Rule 92, Your Honour's order, there is a long list

24 of matters but I would ask this morning that we go straight into

25 Mr. Sivac.

Page 12734

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I also have several matters to bring up, but I

2 haven't had time to discuss them with the other two judges in any case so

3 we will bring these up later on.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes, well, Your Honour, I wonder if we could maybe we

5 need to say tomorrow morning that the first hour and we will let the

6 witness who is coming tomorrow and will be here for a couple of days know

7 that he won't be required.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Provided you don't bring the witness and keep him

9 waiting there.

10 MS. KORNER: No, no.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. That will be fine with me.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, so let's --

16 MS. KORNER: In that case, Your Honour, Mr. Koumjian is going to

17 call the witness.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: This is to make sure because it's 7.179?

19 MS. KORNER: I have no idea. No. It's Mr. Sivac.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: That's right.

21 MS. KORNER: He's not a protected witness, so I don't know what

22 the number. Oh, it is .179. Your Honour, one other aspect that I ought

23 to mention just in case, tomorrow's witness who is a fairly major witness

24 was due to arrive last Wednesday. Owing to the weather conditions, he

25 didn't. In fact he didn't get here until Friday.

Page 12735

1 JUDGE AGIUS: He's here.

2 MS. KORNER: He is here. He had to go through documents and

3 videos. I don't know whether Your Honour has yet had the list, probably

4 not, but I've compiled the list of the documents and videos for tomorrow

5 over the weekend. I hope, although I have to go into Stakic briefly this

6 afternoon to be able to deal with any matters that arise today, but it may

7 be that I'll have to ask Your Honour in any event for a delay. But I hope

8 not because I'm sincerely anxious as I know Your Honours are to get on

9 with this.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: If that is necessary, I'm sure there won't be any

11 problems either from the Defence and certainly not from this side.

12 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honours be very kind and excuse me for

13 today, therefore?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Ms. Korner. Thank you.

15 Usher, could you please -- the witness does not enjoy any

16 protective measures, no?

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's correct, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And he's never given evidence before?

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, he has.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I don't have an indication of the -- I

21 do have the -- all right. Sorry. I was looking at another number.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: We will proffer his Stakic testimony, but the

23 witness also testified in the Omarska case. But we are only proffering

24 the Stakic.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I was looking at another number by mistake.

Page 12736

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: If Your Honour wants, while the witness is being

2 brought in, I could mark the transcript from that trial as Prosecution's

3 next exhibit, which I believe would P1547.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm not sure how the Court has handled exhibits

7 from the Stakic case. We would be at the same time moving to admit all of

8 the exhibits that were used.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I do have them. The thing is that -- anyway, let's

10 move ahead.

11 Good morning to you, Mr. Sivac.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You are about to start giving evidence, and I know

16 that this is not the first time. So I need barely repeat what you have to

17 do. In other words, stand up, take the piece of paper that you will be

18 handed, which contains a solemn declaration to speak the truth, and you

19 kindly proceed by making that solemn declaration. That will be your

20 undertaking with this Chamber that in the course of your testimony, you

21 will be speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 Please.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


Page 12737

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down. You will first be

3 asked a series of questions by Mr. Koumjian who is the Prosecution

4 official officer in this case handling your testimony. After that, you

5 will be cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman, who is appearing for the accused

6 in this case, who is Radoslav Brdjanin. Mr. Koumjian, the witness is in

7 your hands.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

9 Examined by Mr. Koumjian:

10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sivac.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, if I could first, perhaps, handle

12 that administrative matters of the prior transcript. We would be moving

13 in the P1547 and all of the exhibits that were part of that testimony,

14 including a videotape. I don't think -- we will play the videotape if

15 Your Honours request it, but I don't think it's necessary as long as it's

16 in evidence.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, that's not been given to me. So at

18 this point, I oppose it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think the objection cannot but be sustained if

20 it hasn't been given to Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, let me just explain the history of that. I'm

22 not sure of the history of the discovery. Ms. Gustin might -- but that

23 particular videotape was not in the hands of the OTP until Mr. Sivac

24 testified last July, and the transcript of Mr. Sivac that was disclosed

25 includes references to the videotape. In fact, it includes a partial

Page 12738

1 transcript of the videotape. The transcript -- the testimony of Mr. Sivac

2 from the Stakic trial does not make complete sense without having that

3 videotape that he refers to for several pages. It was actually disclosed

4 on my understanding from Ms. Gustin on the 29th of October, 2002. So that

5 was --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So perhaps you could check that, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm not concerned about the videotape. It's the

8 transcript and the exhibits that I'm concerned about. It has become the

9 rule in this Chamber that anything they give to the Trial Chamber has to

10 also be given to me, and it hasn't been given to me. It should be a

11 redacted transcript. I've not seen it, so I don't know if the redactions

12 were properly done, and I don't have the attached exhibits that are being

13 submitted to the Trial Chamber. And that's my objection and I think it's

14 an appropriate objection.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's postpone this particular issue until

16 after the first break. In the meantime, I suppose that during the first

17 break, you will discuss it amongst yourself and come to sort some of an

18 agreement.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, I understand --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you are saying one thing and he is saying

21 another, and I need to have a clear picture.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm not questioning him at all, and I do have the

23 redacted transcript to provide him now. Apparently the redacted

24 transcript was not provided.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Koumjian.

Page 12739

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: And with Your Honour's consent, I'm going to skip

2 over all introductions and all matters referred to that are not redacted

3 from the transcript and simply go to those matters that are were redacted

4 in that perhaps a few matters that could be clarified from the prior

5 transcript.

6 Q. Mr. Sivac, you did testify in your -- in the Stakic case regarding

7 your career with the -- under various names, with the police, or the

8 security whatever names are given for those services in Prijedor. You

9 also testified regarding your internment in the Omarska camp until -- and

10 you were not released until the day after the foreign journalists

11 visited.

12 Can you tell the Court, in the Omarska camp, did you see

13 interrogators, persons who were responsible for the questioning of persons

14 interned in the camp?

15 A. Why, yes. Very often there were my colleagues who used to work

16 with me in the security service. Most of them. They were only a few

17 investigators whom I did not know and I received information from people

18 who went for interrogation -- in for interrogation, that they had come

19 from Banja Luka. The last name of one of them was Popovic. I'm not sure

20 about his first name. I think it is Mane.

21 In my police career, I met that man several times. We sometimes

22 cooperated in same assignments. And another man who came from Banja Luka

23 in a car with Banja Luka plates, and as far as I can remember, he was from

24 the state security service in Banja Luka and the two of them would arrive

25 to Omarska every morning in that car. Other investigators were people I

Page 12740

1 knew well from Prijedor. Most of them were employed by the security

2 service in Prijedor, that is in SUP, Secretariat of the Interior, that is

3 what I will call it. One of them worked for the state security detached

4 office in Prijedor.

5 That particular office in Prijedor is a forward office, is a

6 detached office of the security services centre in Banja Luka. And the

7 terms of reference of that particular office of the state security office

8 in Prijedor were to cover the municipalities of Prijedor, Sanski Most,

9 Bosanski Novi, Bosanska Dubica, and Kljuc.

10 Q. Thank you. Among the interrogators, did you -- or investigators

11 doing the interrogation, were there persons that you knew, recognised, or

12 learned were military -- members of the military or army?

13 A. No. There was -- there were no members of the army there.

14 Q. Can you give us then the categories of the interrogators? You

15 mentioned -- is it correct that there were members of the regular -- of

16 the police. Would that be the crime suppression department, the normal

17 police service in the city of Banja Luka, the municipality?

18 A. The chief of the interrogators in the camp was Ranko Mijic, and I

19 knew him very well. He was the chief before in 1992, of the criminal

20 investigations service in the Prijedor SUP. Besides him there was also

21 Drago Meakic, who was a retired inspector, and he was actually the uncle

22 of Zeljko Meakic who was the commander of the Omarska camp.

23 There was also Nebojsa Babic there, Neso Tomcic. They were also

24 active interrogators in the Prijedor SUP. There was also Zare Tejic, who

25 was a crime technician, who actually went out on site investigations in

Page 12741

1 the SUP -- Prijedor. Rade Knezevic was a retired interrogator in the

2 Prijedor SUP. Obrad Despotovic, he was in charge of monitoring foreigners

3 on behalf of the SUP, and he monitored them while they were there. There

4 were also work -- people there working who were outside of the security

5 service. One of the roughest interrogators in the Omarska camp was

6 Dragan Radakovic. He was an art teacher. But in 1992, he was performing

7 the duty of the director of the Kozara national park.

8 Boro or Dragan Milosavljevic also worked as a an interrogator in

9 the camp, he was an agronomist. And I know that he worked in the

10 agricultural combine of Agrounija. Another very rough interrogator in the

11 Omarska camp, and I know this because all those who went to have an

12 interview with him, came back with visible signs of violence, and his name

13 was Miroslav Zoric. He was a teacher, a teacher at the school of

14 electronics in Prijedor.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the -- both answers the witness has

17 given have not been responsive to the questions. They are going off on

18 very long tangents. The questions were quite simple.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was: Can you give us then the

20 categories of the interrogators. You mentioned, is it correct, that there

21 were members of the regular, of the police. Would that be the crime

22 suppression department? And I lost the line there.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Let me -- perhaps I can try to summarise it a bit

24 better.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, because, Mr. -- partly you are right and partly

Page 12742

1 he is answering the question and partly he's not. So if you can bring

2 your witness to order, Mr. Koumjian, I think that would be better.


4 Q. Mr. Sivac what I would like you to explain to the Judges is not

5 the individuals' names but the organisations that they belong to. Would

6 it be correct that there were interrogators, as you've already mentioned

7 in your last answer, who were from the crime suppression department, the

8 regular police. You've also told us about there being interrogators from

9 the state security. And would it be correct that these were persons who

10 normally worked in the SUP building in Prijedor but reported to Banja Luka

11 to Stojan Zupljanin in Banja Luka. Would that be correct?

12 A. Yes, it is correct.

13 Q. Thank you. In your testimony in the Stakic case, you talked on

14 direct and then added some more information on cross-examination about

15 some discussions that you had following your release from Omarska in the

16 Trnopolje camp with Mr. Ecem and, I believe, Mr. Rade Mucic, I'm not sure

17 I'm pronouncing his name, the second individual. Can you tell the Court,

18 first of all, how you know those two individuals.

19 A. I've known Rade Mucic and Zivko Ecem a long time before 1992

20 because they used to work for Kozarski Vjesnik which is the local paper

21 and for the local radio station, Radio Prijedor. Rade Mucic at that time

22 was also a correspondent for a newspaper which came at the RMK, that is

23 the metal works in Zenica, mining and metal works in Zenica.

24 Q. And it is in your transcript but to remind the judges, you had a

25 long career in journalism working at the federal level with Sarajevo

Page 12743

1 Television. And is that how you came into contact, into professional

2 contact with these individuals?

3 A. Yes. Quite often some events which I covered for the -- for

4 Sarajevo Television, Rade Mucic and Zivko Ecem also covered it those

5 events for their respective newspapers or stations.

6 Q. So now if you could please tell us, in as much detail as you

7 recall now, about the discussions you had in the Trnopolje camp with Rade

8 Mucic and Zivko Ecem and what they told you about the Omarska camp.

9 A. My contacts with them were spontaneous. I did not want to meet

10 them, being aware of all that they had done before. I knew that they were

11 very close with Admiral Zeljaja, commander of the Prijedor Brigade. They

12 were practically his spokesmen, responsible for his public relations. When

13 I -- as I waited in a queue in front of the infirmary in Trnopolje to seek

14 medical help, because in Omarska, my health was severely impaired, all of

15 a sudden, from behind my back, one caught me by my shoulder and said,

16 "Where are you, Sivi? What are you doing here?" It was Rade Mutic.

17 I turned and he said in a tone which was almost compassionate,

18 that he was sort of apologising to me, for having been put in Omarska and

19 there was no help for anyone in Omarska. Only he said in front of me and

20 I suppose he was trying to wash his hands, the only man to whom -- whom

21 he, Rade Mutic and Zivko Ecem helped was Ratim Seferovic.

22 Q. If I could stop you now, can you tell us briefly who was

23 Mr. Seferovic and how would Mr. Ecem and Mutic have known him?

24 A. Ratim Seferovic was a teacher of literature, and before 1992, he

25 was the director of the Kozarski Vjesnik and Radio Prijedor and they were

Page 12744

1 the same -- also Zivko Ecem and Rade Mutic also worked in that company.

2 Q. You said that they told you that they helped Mr. Seferovic. You

3 said he was the only person that they helped. Did they explain that, that

4 he was the only one that they tried to help or the only one that they

5 could help?

6 A. They said that he was the only person that they had helped.

7 Q. Can you tell us in as much detail as you recall now, exactly what

8 they told you about how they were able to help Mr. Seferovic? First I

9 should ask you to clarify, did you see Mr. Seferovic in the Omarska camp?

10 Was he detained with you?

11 A. No. He wasn't detained with me. When I came to Omarska, he

12 was -- he had already left the camp. They said that they had to write

13 Mr. Ratim Seferovic's biography, and they took that to the commander of

14 the 43rd Motorised Brigade, Radmilo Zeljaja, and then Radmilo Zeljaja took

15 that biography to a meeting of the Crisis Staff in Prijedor. And there he

16 managed to reach an accord or to get approval for Ratim Seferovic to be

17 released from the Omarska camp.

18 Q. Okay, sir. Now I want to go to a couple of documents that were

19 discussed in the Stakic case, and counsel can tell me if he doesn't have

20 them. And if that's true then, we'll wait until later do that.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have what was marked in the Stakic

22 case, it's a colour copy, S242/1, it appears to be an issue of Kozarski

23 Vjesnik from the 17th of July, 1992, the first page.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have this document, Mr. Ackerman?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so, yes.

Page 12745

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay, first if that document could be shown to the

3 witness.

4 Q. Sir, there appear to be two articles in that -- on that first

5 page. Can you read slowly for the record the headline of the --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Which of the two sheets are you referring the

9 witness to? Because what we have is S242/1 and S242/2. S/1 is this one,

10 in other words.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. I handed him S/1, thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And we have some parts of it which are

13 highlighted, have they been highlighted for the purpose of this case or

14 were they highlighted in Stakic -- or not in Stakic, in the case where he

15 gave evidence?

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I believe that these -- this is a

17 photocopy of the issue that we had in the leadership unit. Someone from

18 that unit had highlighted for whatever reason those particular points.

19 It's highlighted by the OTP but I can't say for this particular case.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And the writing in red, there is one which says nema

21 fakture, and then some numbers, 151.050, 0 something 3, 3.050, 34, ARH,

22 IV, maybe archive or something like that. What's that?

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm getting a copy so I can follow, Your Honour.

24 Your Honour, I believe all of these were simply -- was writing made by

25 persons who were making notes at various times. I don't think any of the

Page 12746

1 handwriting should be considered by the witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


4 Q. Just to clarify, Mr. Sivac, is it correct that you had not seen

5 this issue of Kozarski Vjesnik and these articles until you testified on

6 the Stakic case, if I've given you the right articles?

7 A. Yes. I didn't see these. At the time when this issue came out, I

8 was at the Omarska camp.

9 Q. Okay. But just to be complete, you have subsequently obtained

10 other prior issues of Kozarski Vjesnik that were issued during the time

11 you were in the camp, but you had not seen this particular issue and these

12 particular articles to your knowledge until you testified in Stakic.

13 Would that be correct?

14 A. Yes. That's correct.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Koumjian, in case it has just passed by without

16 your noticing, you intended before I interrupted you to asking the witness

17 to read part of this document. Did you mean -- did you intend him to read

18 out loud so that we get a translation of the relevant part or just read

19 for himself and then answer the questions that you were putting, going to

20 put to him?

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, I'm actually asking him -- well we have a

22 translation, so it's up to Your Honours. But the translation of the

23 particular article on this page, I believe, is the article -- appears on

24 Exhibit 239, so it's 239A. Perhaps the witness can help me because at the

25 moment I'm confused which of the articles this is the translation of.

Page 12747

1 I could figure it out in time with my limited Cyrillic, but I

2 think he could tell us much quicker.

3 Q. Mr. Sivac, on this first page do you see an article with the

4 headline, "Visits Krajina Representatives in Prijedor"?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the first one?

6 A. Yes, I see it. That's the main news item on this page, except the

7 commentary, "New International Order," which is to the right.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: If we could just put it on the ELMO and the witness

9 will just point to the article he's referring to.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We will do that but it's abundantly clear that he's

11 referring actually to the first article, top, top left, Mr. Koumjian.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. We have the

13 translation of that. I don't know if Your Honours would like it to be

14 read; it's rather short. But that would be Exhibit S239A, and I would

15 asking that S239A be admitted into evidence, the translation of that

16 article, which is part of the redacted transcript.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Are we ready with this?

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Shall I have the witness read it out loud for the

19 record?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think there is a need for it. Mr. Ackerman?

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there is no need for it, but don't we

22 need to assign the exhibit different numbers from the Stakic numbers?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We will do that. I think we will follow the same

24 procedure that we adopted previously in the course of the Stakic

25 documents, before we broke for the holidays, and that would be the -- this

Page 12748

1 number, Stakic, and then slash, the number of -- P19 whatever.

2 Ms. Chuqing? That's not difficult, Mr. Ackerman. You want to know it

3 now?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I think for somebody who is reading the record in

5 the future it's important to have the exhibit number at the same place the

6 exhibit is discussed.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not going to make that much difference because

8 whichever number we give it, this number, the Stakic number, is going to

9 feature.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So it does not create any problem. Yes,

12 Mr. Koumjian.

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay. I had the same request as Mr. Ackerman.

14 I'll refer to in my further examination as S239A as the Stakic number if

15 we need to refer to.

16 Can we now have the witness shown page 4 of that issue, which I

17 believe is marked in the Stakic case S242/4. Could that be put on the

18 ELMO?

19 Q. And Mr. Sivac, if you could identify an article on that page

20 concerning the visit of the delegation to the Omarska camp entitled "It's

21 Difficult For Everyone."

22 A. Yes. That is the heading of the article from the Kozarski

23 Vjesnik, and it's dated the 17th of July, 1992. And the top heading is

24 "Representatives of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and the Banja Luka

25 Municipality Visited Prijedor."

Page 12749

1 Q. In the second paragraph of this article, it lists members of that

2 delegation. Again, would it be correct that you had not seen this article

3 until you testified on the Stakic case?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Which is -- Mr. Koumjian, before he answers, could

5 you direct us to the translation of this article?


7 JUDGE AGIUS: And the document number.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: In the Stakic case S238A is the English

9 translation.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: 238A, okay.


12 Q. My question again, Mr. Sivac, is: Is it correct that you had not

13 seen this article until you testified in the Stakic case and until you had

14 already described the persons that you had recognised in the delegation

15 that visited the Omarska camp?

16 A. Yes. I saw this article later. Before that, I had just finished

17 telling the story about the visit of the delegation of the Autonomous

18 Region of Bosanska Krajina to the Omarska camp, and only after that I

19 received this article to read. And that was the first time that I saw it.

20 Q. To clarify something, because the judges do not have that portion

21 of your transcript, is it correct that in the Stakic case, you had named

22 the person who headed this delegation that had visited the Omarska camp

23 before you saw these articles?

24 A. Yes. I identified completely the persons who were in that

25 delegation, and I was given this article to read by representatives of the

Page 12750

1 Prosecutor's Office and my memory still serves me well. All of those that

2 I had mentioned were actually mentioned by the journalists also who wrote

3 this article, so I was absolutely right.

4 Q. I'm interested right now in one particular individual. Who was

5 the individual that you had testified, before reading this article, headed

6 the delegation that arrived in July at the Omarska camp, the political

7 delegation?

8 A. The political delegation came to Omarska. The most prominent and

9 the most important member of the delegation was the accused here, Radoslav

10 Brdjanin. At that time, he was, I think, the President of the Crisis

11 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

12 Q. Thank you. If we could now have the exhibit from the Stakic case

13 that was marked S15-2/I put on the ELMO. If Your Honours don't have it,

14 you can use my copy. That's fine.

15 Q. I think, Mr. Sivac, perhaps it's not necessary right at this

16 moment to refer to this map or this photograph, but can you tell the

17 judges in your own words, in July of 1992, you testified in Stakic, you

18 were imprisoned in the Omarska camp. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And do you recall a day in July of that year where a delegation of

21 high-ranking officials arrived, and can you tell Your Honours -- Their

22 Honours about what happened that day?

23 A. From the early morning, all the inmates were told to leave the

24 rooms they were in. Milorad Tadic, Brk; Zeljko Meakic's, the camp

25 commander's assistant, was in charge of lining us up together with the

Page 12751

1 other guards and the heads of the -- the shift leaders, the guards' shift

2 leaders, at the cement plateaus in front of the hangars, in front of the

3 administrative building, where I was staying. I was in the room with Mujo

4 Burho to be specific. And in front of the administrative building, in

5 front of the garage, were the inmates from the garage. That's where they

6 were lined up.

7 Q. Perhaps now you might turn to your right, to the photograph, and

8 use that, if it's helpful to you, to describe the scene that day when the

9 prisoners were taken out of the rooms.

10 A. As you can see, this is the hangar and then somewhere here in this

11 area, where the pista is and the hangar plateau, the inmates were lined

12 up. And then here in front of the administrative building, the inmates

13 were also lined up.

14 Q. Where were you?

15 A. I was standing right here, and I marked the place with my

16 initials, NS, somewhere in front of the administrative building so that I

17 was in a very good position to see what would happen later.

18 Q. Just so the record is clear, the markings on this photograph, the

19 blue initials, NS, you just pointed to and the red lines and there are

20 some other blue ink marks, were those markings that you put on this

21 photograph during your testimony in the Stakic case?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. The whole morning, Milorad Tadic, Brk,

23 practised with us the singing of Chetnik songs, and so that we would shout

24 as loudly as possible, "This is Serbia, this is Serbia," and to raise

25 three fingers in salute. We didn't know what was happening in the camp or

Page 12752

1 what was going to happen. Around noon, along the main road to the Omarska

2 mine from the main entrance towards the camp, we saw a long column of cars

3 arriving. At the head of the column was a police car with rotating

4 lights. It was an armoured vehicle, actually.

5 Q. For the record, you pointed to the lower right of the photograph

6 as the direction from which the vehicles arrived. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

8 Q. I don't know if it might be helpful but do you know on this

9 photograph, which direction north would be, just for -- perhaps to make it

10 easier to refer to matters later?

11 A. This is the north. This is actually the north. I think that's

12 it. South is here and then west and east. North, east, west, and south.

13 I know this very well because before I stayed at the Omarska camp or at

14 the Omarska mine, I reported from the mine hundreds and hundreds of times,

15 I reported on the successes of the employees. I followed the work of the

16 mine practically from the time it started to operate, and I covered every

17 new plant that was opened.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So just to make it clear, Mr. Sivac, please, the

19 triangle which is at the bottom right of that photograph, points to which

20 direction? To the -- no, the triangle, just move there, just below

21 there. There is a dark triangle at the bottom right of the photo. It is

22 very near where you are. No, no. Of the photo.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: The corner of the photograph.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The corner of the photo, the bottom right corner.

25 That is pointing to which direction?

Page 12753

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the north, the north, the

2 north. But this is a model.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. So the triangle at the bottom right

4 corner of the photo is indeed pointing towards the north? Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay, thank you.

7 Q. So the delegation arrived from the north, and can you tell us

8 again how those vehicles proceeded? What you saw from your position?

9 A. After the APC, behind the APC, which was manned by members of the

10 intervention detachment, who were situated in Prijedor, there was a

11 vehicle where is Simo Drljaca was with his driver, Milorad Vokic and

12 behind him was a car carrying Dusan Jankovic, who was the commander of the

13 police in Prijedor. They jumped out of their cars very quickly and

14 immediately joined the delegation, from the camp, which was headed by

15 Zeljko Meakic, the camp commander, Milorad Tadic, Brk, and others, other

16 guard shift leaders who were working at the Omarska camp.

17 Q. Before you move on, just to clarify, in your transcript in Stakic,

18 you talked about the intervention squad and named two what you called

19 prominent figures or notorious figures, Dado or Darko Mrdja and, I

20 believe, Zoran Babin. Is that the same squad that you're referring to

21 now?

22 A. Yes, that's right. They were the best-known as well as the worst

23 members, if I can put it that way, of the infamous intervention squad from

24 the Prijedor police station.

25 Q. Now, in addition to these police and security people, can you

Page 12754

1 describe other vehicles with members of the delegation that came?

2 A. Several other vehicles were there which were parked somewhere

3 around the entrance, and then we started to recognise the people who were

4 coming out of those vehicles. The first among those that I recognised was

5 the accused here, Radoslav Brdjanin, who was accompanied by

6 Radomir Vukic. The President of the main board of the Serbian Democratic

7 Party for the region of Banja Luka. His nickname actually was Rale

8 Monstrum.

9 Q. Which translates -- I didn't get the translation of that?

10 A. Rale Monstrum.

11 Q. I'm sorry, sir. You pointed to where the political -- the cars

12 carrying the political leaders stopped and just so the record is clear, am

13 I correct, you pointed to where there are two dots at the northern edge of

14 the model? Is that correct? Right where you are right now? Thank you.

15 I think the record is clear now. You said --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said you recognised Mr. Brdjanin. Can you tell us how you

18 recognised Mr. Brdjanin?

19 A. I saw Mr. Brdjanin before that in the newspapers or maybe in some

20 TV programmes. He was performing the high function of the president of

21 the Autonomous Region of the Bosnian Krajina of Banja Luka.

22 Q. Okay. What happened after the politicians got out of or the

23 honoured guests, whatever you referred to them as, got out of their

24 vehicles?

25 A. We were shouting, singing, when they came out of those vehicles.

Page 12755

1 Radoslav Brdjanin approached with the Banja Luka delegation and the

2 Prijedor political delegation, and he stood in front. And out of this

3 group of people, representing the camp delegation, Zeljko Meakic made a

4 few steps forward, the commander of the camp, and practically in a

5 military way, reported and addressed Radoslav Brdjanin. He reported

6 something to him on that occasion.

7 Q. Of all the people that you saw in that delegation, who was the

8 first one that the camp commander Meakic reported to?

9 A. Well, Zeljko Meakic saluted and reported to Radoslav Brdjanin, and

10 behind him were other members of the Banja Luka political delegation, and

11 the Prijedor political delegation.

12 Q. Earlier you talked about in the morning, Brk had you practising

13 singing and you made a brief gesture that you were required to make and

14 you raised your hand. The record would not be clear. Can you describe

15 the gesture that you were forced to make for the delegation. Did you have

16 to give them a type of salute?

17 A. This is the conventional Serb greeting with three fingers. We had

18 to put up our hand all the time and we had to sing very loudly and to

19 shout out, "This is Serbia, this is Serbia." I have to explain to the

20 Chamber the political delegation which came to the camp almost -- I mean

21 almost all members of this delegation were laughing. They thought it was

22 very funny how these personnel from the Omarska camp managed to coach us,

23 to prepare us, for something like that. Amongst the inmates, there were

24 also intellectuals and businessmen; that is, people who had some weight in

25 the municipality of Prijedor, and unfortunately, at that time, they had to

Page 12756

1 humiliate themselves and under pressure, against their own will, they had

2 to sing and utter words which were deeply offensive to the ethnic origin.

3 Q. Sir, this is the middle of July of 1992. Can you describe the

4 appearance of the prisoners who were lined up to greet the Banja Luka

5 delegation.

6 A. Well, we looked pretty miserably. Almost all the inmates had

7 torture marks, harassment, ill treatment marks, and we'd already been

8 marked by all that we had gone through in the Omarska camp. Many inmates

9 had no foot wear. A number of us also did not have all the parts of

10 clothing. The speciality of the Omarska guards was to snatch away, be it

11 footwear or perhaps parts of clothes from the inmates, so that many people

12 were barefoot, and naked waist up.

13 Q. Did any of the prisoners, to your recollection, have any bandages

14 and if so, can you describe what was used for these bandages?

15 A. Why, yes. Many inmates had all sorts of bandages, some make shift

16 bandages which Dr. Enes [as interpreted] Sadikovic used to make from parts

17 of our underwear. He would tear up this underwear and use it as bandages

18 to protect, at least a little bit, some of the injuries we had sustained.

19 Q. Can you repeat, please, the first name of Dr. Sadikovic, it was

20 translated as Enes. Can you correct that.

21 A. Dr. Esad Sadikovic, an UNHCR expert, a doctor, a specialist, who

22 treated people all his life irrespective of their faith or colour of their

23 skin. Before that he was in Africa as an UNHCR expert on western Samoa in

24 the Pacific, and he returned to Prijedor on the eve of the war. And from

25 there, he was rounded up when the camp was founded and unfortunately

Page 12757

1 killed him on the 7th of August, 1992.

2 Q. Yes, and you discuss that in your first testimony very thoroughly.

3 Going back to the delegation, can you tell us what they did once

4 they got out of the cars, and in particular, most importantly, please tell

5 us what you recall Mr. Brdjanin doing after he emerged from the vehicle

6 and was saluted by Meakic.

7 A. After that ceremony, if I may call it that, the political

8 delegation headed by Brdjanin moved in this direction and I think he

9 halted somewhere here and he tried to say something briefly, but I

10 couldn't hear that, because -- because we were singing very loudly and

11 shouting those famous slogans so I suppose only those in the front line

12 could hear him, if they heard him. And after a brief delay there, the

13 delegation headed by Brdjanin and others Simo Drljaca and others, took

14 this path towards the administration building to the fetching up at the

15 entrance to the administration building.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: If I could try to describe what the witness pointed

17 out on the map. He indicated a route along the red line which would be on

18 the east side of the administrative building, the first building, on the

19 northern part of the picture, travelling in a southerly direction. He

20 indicated Mr. Brdjanin stopped at a point where there is a blue dot and

21 attempted to address, say something. He said after that, the delegation

22 continued, and he drew a somewhat circular motion which follows the blue

23 arrow that's drawn in ink that's just outside the red lines.

24 Would that be correct, Your Honour?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Koumjian.

Page 12758

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just mention, I'm sorry, the

3 ceremony, Zeljko Meakic's report took place here at these two points right

4 here. Because these dots mark the places where the masts were with flags,

5 with very large flags. One was the Serb flag with four S's, and the other

6 one was the flag of new Yugoslavia, as they called it, that was the

7 conventional tri-colour without the five-pointed star.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Indicating again the two dots at the northern edge

9 of the photograph, lower right of the photograph.

10 Q. Sir, at that time, in the Omarska camp, you were not wearing your

11 glasses. Is that correct?

12 A. No, I wasn't. That is, I had glasses. I started needing -- I

13 needed glasses only for reading but it was only 0.25 or 0.50, so it wasn't

14 a large optics. My eye sight deteriorated suddenly five years ago because

15 in the meantime after all that I had suffered there, I contracted

16 diabetes, high sugar content, and that has been my chief problem over the

17 past five years.

18 Q. The map has red lines on it which I presume, correct me if I'm

19 wrong, are where the prisoners lined up. Is that correct?

20 A. It is, yes, you're quite right.

21 Q. Is it correct then that the prisoners were lined up in addition to

22 in front of the administration building, in front of the garage, and in

23 front of the white house? To the best of your recollection?

24 A. Yes, in the -- in my Stakic case testimony, I drew those lines,

25 yes.

Page 12759

1 Q. And one other matter, perhaps should be clarified. In the Stakic

2 case, you were asked before -- you were asked when you first testified to

3 view six individuals one of which was Dr. Stakic, and you identified him

4 from those six individuals. You correctly identified him. Is that true?

5 The guy you identified is the one who remained in the court and sat down

6 next to Defence counsel. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. I want to go now then -- I'm finished with that photograph -- to

9 matter that was not covered in -- much in your testimony in Stakic. Do

10 you recall the day that the foreign journalists first visited the Omarska

11 camp, Penny Marshall and Vulliamy and Williams?

12 A. Yes. I recall it. It was the August the 5th, if I'm correct.

13 And that day, early in the morning, in front of the building that I was in

14 at Mujo Burho, that is in front of that garage, we heard some noise, we

15 heard people talking and some guards turned up and ordered that in front

16 of the administrative building and the garage where we were, that there

17 had to be complete silence.

18 Q. You mentioned a few moments ago Dr. Eso Sadikovic, and you

19 mentioned him in further detail in your Stakic testimony. Do you recall

20 what happened with Dr. Sadikovic that day, the day that the journalists

21 were to arrive?

22 A. After that order that we had to keep complete silence, that nobody

23 was even to hear that there was somebody in those buildings, they after

24 all that, they called out Dr. Esad Sadikovic and took him away.

25 Dr. Eso Sadikovic was taken out very often. He went to extend medical aid

Page 12760

1 even to guards who came to the camp, drunk, and would wound each other,

2 and that is because of the frequent robbery or mugging of the prisoners.

3 They would start quarrelling. They were start arguing over the booty.

4 And they treated each other very roughly. Quite often, they were also

5 highly intoxicated and then they would fire the weapons that they all had

6 and would wound one another. They took Dr. Eso away and brought him --

7 brought him back only late at night.

8 Q. Did Dr. Sadikovic speak any foreign language?

9 A. Why, yes, of course, he was fluent in English because, being an

10 UNHCR expert and a doctor, and a physician, a member of the medicine san

11 frontier, he frequently stayed for prolonged periods of time in other

12 countries where he had to speak English and I think he was also quite

13 conversant in French. And I think he was learning Spanish because he was

14 waiting to go to a country where that language was spoken.

15 Q. Can you tell us, if you have any information, based upon your

16 knowledge of Dr. Sadikovic, whether you believe he would have been an

17 articulate and effective spokesman for the persons in Omarska, interned in

18 Omarska, and for the non-Serb population of Prijedor, had he been able to

19 speak to the world media?

20 A. Yes. Eso was very, very sociable. He had an a very broad

21 vocabulary and he also enjoyed charisma. He enjoyed a status of a highly

22 accomplished intellectual, and I think that it was because of that that

23 Dr. Eso Sadikovic was removed, fearing that he might establish contact

24 with those journalists who had come, in order to conceal all the things

25 that were going on in the camp.

Page 12761

1 Your Honours, I have to tell you that it was only after I left

2 Bosnia and went to a western country that I saw on television this story

3 about Penny Marshall and Ed Williams' visit. I cried when I saw it

4 because in that story, in that footage, I saw how -- how -- in what an

5 ugly manner and how fiercely Simo Drljaca is explaining to journalists

6 what fantastic treatment we were enjoying in the camp and that they were

7 green berets, all around the camp, that is Muslim fighters and we in that

8 camp had all the food that we needed, all the water that we needed, that

9 we were accommodated well that we were practically in hotels or in some

10 resort or something, yet the reality was quite different, and it was very

11 ugly indeed.

12 Q. In those broadcasts you mentioned that Drljaca told them that

13 there were green berets surrounding Omarska, and you may have seen that he

14 told this them that they were in danger visiting the camp. At that time,

15 in August, August the 5th of 1992, on that day, or prior days, did the

16 guards at the camp show any concern with being shot at from the woods or

17 from the area surrounding Omarska? Did they appear to act as if they

18 thought there were green berets, surrounding the camp?

19 A. True, I saw Simo Drljaca's escort Vokic, is acting in that

20 programme. He puts up a performance about how he's -- at the very

21 entrance at Omarska how he's running and sort of firing in some direction

22 because allegedly the green berets were somewhere in that direction,

23 trying, I guess, to attack this convoy with journalists and with

24 Simo Drljaca, at the head. But it was all a put-on.

25 Towards the end of June, the ethnic cleansing had been completed.

Page 12762

1 That is all the non-Serbs in those areas had been removed and the Omarska

2 camp is -- was surrounded by Serb villages, they were all Serb villages

3 around it. So there was no way for anyone to come near the camp -- I

4 mean, aside from the Serbs.

5 Q. Based upon your experience in the camp, although -- am I correct

6 that you then never saw the foreign journalists? You were kept inside the

7 room throughout their visit. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes. We were inside, in this room. We were given nothing to eat,

9 not even water, and we had to keep very quiet because we'd been

10 threatened, if any -- if one could hear any sound, that is shout or any

11 sign indicating that there were people in that room, that we'd suffer

12 consequences the next day.

13 Q. You said, though, that subsequently, you saw the broadcasts and am

14 I correct you also saw the journalists go to Trnopolje and broadcasts of

15 photographs smuggled to the journalists by Dr. Idriz Merdzanic and

16 Azra Blazevic? Can you tell us if that visit and those broadcasts, if you

17 noticed an effect upon the lives of the people in Omarska and in Prijedor?

18 A. Well, we were kept inside. We were not aware of that visit that

19 day. As I said, this footage was screened several years later again. But

20 after this delegation's visit -- I mean after the journalists' visit,

21 those two journalists, we realised that something unreal was happening in

22 the Omarska camp, that is the guards who had been so rough, who treated us

23 so basically all of a sudden started behaving differently. We simply

24 couldn't understand that they had all of a sudden started talking with us,

25 because until then it was simply inconceivable. And we couldn't

Page 12763

1 understand what was going on, why that complete change in the conduct of

2 the guards and people who worked in the camp administration, in the way

3 they treated us. We simply couldn't comprehend what had happened.

4 And only later, a few days later, that is, after we had been

5 transferred to the Trnopolje camp, we -- it was only then that we learned

6 about that visit and it was thanks to a group of very brave journalists,

7 headed by Penny Marshall and Vulliamy, I think that the lives of many

8 inmates were saved thanks to their visit, and I claim this quite openly

9 because my contacts in the Omarska camp, with the Mlado Radic, Krkan, a

10 man whom I'd known almost all my life and who was one -- the head of one

11 of the worst shifts, when he saw me in the Omarska camp for the first

12 time, he was very surprised and said, "Sivi," that's my nickname, "I can't

13 help you here. All of you who are here are intended for liquidation." I

14 understood what he meant by that.

15 In a contact when I was going for a meal, and food was being

16 distributed by my sister, who was also in the Omarska camp, together with

17 those other 36 women from Prijedor, and I told her briefly that Krkan had

18 said that we would all be liquidated. And she almost cried, but I had to

19 leave straight away. And later on, through Zeljko Meakic, the camp

20 commander, whom she knew very well from different court cases because my

21 sister was a Judge in the Court in Prijedor, and she asked Zeljko if I was

22 to be taken away to be shot, she asked Zeljko if they could kill her

23 instead, because she had -- she was single and I had a wife and children.

24 Q. A day or two after the foreign journalists' visit, two days later,

25 you were released, along with many others, to Trnopolje?

Page 12764












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 12764 to 12772.













Page 12773

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your testimony in Stakic, you talked about Dr. Eso Sadikovic

3 being taken away and all the members of your room standing to salute him.

4 When was that in relation to the visit of the foreign journalists?

5 A. It was a few days -- no, a day or two after the journalists'

6 visit. Namely after the journalists' visit, the nights in Omarska were

7 eerily quiet because nobody was being called out, taken away, nobody was

8 liquidated. There was no firing. And sometime towards the dawn break,

9 very early in the morning, suddenly the door opened with a bang and a

10 guard said, "Dr. Eso Sadikovic, come out." We were at a loss. We thought

11 they were taking him again to help somebody, to tend to somebody. But

12 then they told him to take all his belongings with him and then we saw

13 light.

14 Dr. Eso stood up and he was in the bottom of the room that we were

15 in. He picked up his plastic bag, in which he had a dirty shirt and I

16 think some cigarette butts which the inmates had collected around the camp

17 for him because he was an impassioned smoker, and he slowly started

18 towards the exit. And at that moment, those who were awake and those who

19 were asleep also woke up and stood up and in a chorus, loudly started

20 crying -- shouting, "Doctor, thank you for all that you've done." Doctor,

21 I think was well aware of where they were taking him and we were also well

22 aware of that. When he reached the door, he turned and he only said,

23 "Goodbye, friends." We couldn't really grasp that at that moment, there

24 was a man in the world who could kill such a man.

25 Q. Yesterday, you showed me a newspaper article from Kozarski Vjesnik

Page 12774

1 which I told you I had not seen before in which it had a photograph of

2 Dr. Sadikovic. And is it correct that in this Kozarski Vjesnik articling

3 he's listed as among those favouring the Gandhian way of peace, the

4 moderates, among the Muslims in Prijedor, and this is an issue from after

5 the Serb takeover of Prijedor?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we take this up after the break, Mr. Koumjian?

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's my last question.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So, Witness, please answer it.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Dr. Eso and a large number of

10 Prijedor intellectuals of Bosniak and Croat origin organised some --

11 organised rallies for peace. He was indeed a man who didn't think much of

12 violence and solution of problems in a violent manner. He always

13 advocated the Gandhian way of solving problems for Muslims and other

14 people in the municipality of Prijedor.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. The only other matters I have to deal

16 with would be the exhibits from the Stakic testimony which we could even

17 do -- I'll get together with Mr. Ackerman.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. See if you could come together in the break

19 for a short while so we'll pave the way for a smoother second session.

20 We'll now break for 25 minutes, is that suitable for what you need

21 to do? And we will resume immediately after that. Thank you.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.38 a.m.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Just for the record, perhaps an explanation to

25 the public is in order to explain why we are starting 30 minutes or even

Page 12775

1 more after. There was some documents that the Defence needed very

2 urgently and time was required to obtain them. So we are now in a

3 position to resume the examination-in-chief and then Mr. Ackerman will

4 follow with the cross-examination.

5 Yes, Mr. Koumjian, please.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours. I did say I had no

7 further questions, but over that long break I thought of a few others.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You said you had some questions or you wanted to

9 refer the witness to some documents?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, we can go over the documents, I suggest we --

11 we can do that either now or after he testifies. The admission of the

12 documents that were referred to in the Stakic testimony.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: But I have a few questions to ask.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: There is a question that we would like to put to the

16 witness before Mr. Ackerman takes over.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I do have a few questions also.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


20 Q. First, Mr. Sivac, you mentioned Mr. Esad Sadikovic. Do you know

21 if he had a wife and family and if so, what the ethnicity of his wife was?

22 A. Mr. Eso Sadikovic's wife was a Serb. Her name is Zorica. She is

23 somewhere from Serbia. She still lives in Prijedor.

24 Q. And did he have children with her?

25 A. Yes, two children. He had a daughter called Alma and a son called

Page 12776

1 Eniz. At the time when Dr. Eso Sadikovic was killed, his daughter was 15

2 years old and his son was 11. I would just like to note that

3 Dr. Eso Sadikovic's son Eniz is the same age as my daughter, and they went

4 to school together.

5 Q. Thank you. And another matter that I just a few moments ago

6 occurred to me I forgot to ask you about. After your release from the

7 Omarska camp, and Trnopolje, did you ever see the accused, Mr. Brdjanin,

8 on television after that time?

9 A. After I left, Mr. Brdjanin, the accused here, together with a very

10 good acquaintance of mine, Srdjo Srdic, who was the leader of the Serbian

11 Democratic Party from Prijedor, took part in a political programme on Serb

12 television in Banja Luka.

13 Q. Just to clarify, Mr. Srdic was actually a representative to the

14 parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina and later, when the split --

15 A. The Serb assembly, the Serb parliament, yes, that's right.

16 Q. Is it correct he was actually elected to the Bosnian parliament

17 and then when the Serbs left that parliament and formed their own, he

18 joined the Serb parliament?

19 A. Yes, yes. Yes. That's correct.

20 Q. Please describe what you recall about that programme and what was

21 said, particularly by the accused, Mr. Brdjanin?

22 A. The programme lasted for more than an hour and it was open to

23 receive questions from viewers. And as far as I remember, the gist of the

24 programme was that the accused here, Radoslav Brdjanin, commended the

25 Prijedor Crisis Staff and political leadership for having done a very good

Page 12777

1 job in the territory of the Prijedor municipality, that they cleansed the

2 area very well in accordance to some plans. And I remember very well a

3 sentence that he used, and it was a sentence often used by someone who

4 shares his political views, and who worked with him, Radoslav Lukic, known

5 as Rale Monster, Rale Monstrum [Realtime transcript read in error

6 "Radoslav Lukic].

7 Brdjanin repeated a sentence then, that all -- and the sentence is

8 as follows: "All the non-Bosniaks who remained to live there, he said all

9 Turks or balijas who remain in the territory of the Serbian state will

10 shake with fear. Their pants will shake with fear, if they do not accept

11 the laws of the Serbian state.

12 Q. Just one clarification, the transcript and when you discussed Rale

13 Monstrum translated the name as Radoslav Lukic. Can you correct the last

14 name of this individual.

15 A. Radoslav Vukic [Realtime transcript read in error "Vukovic"], with

16 a "V."

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't have any further questions. Your Honours

19 indicated you had one.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Gentlemen, before you start, Mr. Ackerman, we have a

21 very simple question actually. Mr. Sivac, I refer you to previous part of

22 your testimony. You had mentioned Zeljko Meakic, you had mentioned Mlado

23 Radic. Was Mlado Radic also known as Krkan?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. You are right, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: What position did he occupy, that you know of? You

Page 12778

1 referred to this person as someone that you had known almost all your

2 life. So when you met him on the occasion that you referred to before, I

3 was surprised to see you there in Omarska, what position did he occupy

4 then? What was his official function?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mlado Radic, known as Krkan, an

6 acquaintance of mine, I've known him practically all my life, he was most

7 of the time heading the worst guard shift. During their watch, most of

8 the killings and rapes took place.

9 And I would like to say that there has been a mistake again. It

10 should say "Radoslav Vukic" and not "Radoslav Vukovic." At least that's

11 what I see on my transcript.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Was Mr. Mlado a member of the police or some

13 organisation that you know of, at the time that he told you that the

14 inmates there in Omarska were meant to -- were intended for liquidation?

15 Was he a member of the police then? Or what was he?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a member of the police force,

17 an active police officer, at the Omarska Police Station, until he was

18 appointed commander, one of the guard shifts in the Omarska camp.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you.

20 Mr. Ackerman, he's all yours.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you start, Mr. Ackerman is the lead counsel

23 for Mr. Brdjanin. Your duty here as a witness is to answer his questions

24 the same way you answered the questions from the Prosecution. You have no

25 right to discriminate in favour or against any one of the officials here.

Page 12779

1 He is here in an official function and he has the responsibility and duty

2 to defend his client. Therefore, he's got every right to ask questions to

3 you and you have an absolute duty to answer each and every question as

4 truthfully and as fully as you can. Thank you.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:

6 Q. Good morning, sir.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. I want to personally apologise to you for the delay that was

9 occasioned a few moments ago and tell you that it was completely my

10 fault. But I'm sorry for that. The result of that is that the time I

11 have to cross-examine you is shortened, and the only way that we can get

12 that done is if you cooperate with me by answering the questions as -- in

13 as brief a way as possible. And if I want you to explain further about

14 some answer, then I can ask you to do that. Would that be fair to you?

15 A. I will do my best to give brief answers.

16 Q. Now, one of the things I'm going to be doing is referring to some

17 prior statements that you made, and you of course have an absolute right

18 to look at those statements and confirm that what I'm saying you said is

19 correct, but I would like to not do that, because of the time it takes,

20 unless you believe it's absolutely necessary for you to do so. And you'll

21 certainly have that right if you believe it's necessary.

22 I want to begin my questioning of you by referring to one of those

23 statements which comes out of a 17 February 2002 telephone conversation

24 that you had with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, and in

25 that conversation, you were being asked about the persons who were part of

Page 12780

1 this delegation that you have testified about here today. And in the

2 course of naming the persons, you failed to name Radoslav Vukic. You were

3 then reminded that you mentioned Dr. Vukic in an earlier statement I

4 believe your 1994 statement.

5 Do you remember that exchange during your telephone conversation?

6 A. I made many phone calls, specially with the Prosecutor's Office,

7 and this was often done without the presence of an interpreter. When I

8 testified in the Stakic case, I said that many of those conversations, the

9 telephone conversations that I had, I do not accept because they were

10 conducted without an interpreter under special circumstances. Quite

11 often, I had -- held those conversations while I was driving my car.

12 So at those times, I was not able to fully concentrate, simply the

13 representatives from the Prosecutor's Office got to me while I was on the

14 road and I usually try to keep those conversations as brief as possible

15 because I was in the middle of driving. So at those times, I perhaps did

16 not mention some of those people who were in the delegation that toured

17 the camp.

18 Secondly, I was never able to look and read through and correct

19 any of those statements that I had given over the telephone. Last time I

20 was here in July, I was taken unawares. And to give you a specific answer

21 to your question, I accept the first statement that I gave in 1994. This

22 statement was the most correct, and even since that time, nine years have

23 passed. But at the time that I gave the statement my memory, my

24 recollection, was quite fresh and all of the things that I had lived

25 through while I was in the Omarska and Trnopolje camps were still fresh in

Page 12781

1 my mind.

2 Q. Well, you finally at the end of your answer, sort of made the

3 point that I was labouriously going to get to and that is that the things

4 in your earlier statements, your 1994 statement, are likely to be your

5 best recollection of the events. That's a fair statement, isn't it?

6 A. Yes. Although I looked at that statement of mine for the first

7 time after six years, and in that statement, some of the things that I

8 said were quite badly translated, but I believe that they do not affect my

9 overall statement that much, nor the substance of it.

10 Q. Now, you're doing what I hoped you would not do so that we could

11 finish today, and that is your giving me much longer answers than my

12 question calls for. If you really try not to do, we'll finish today.

13 Otherwise you'll be here in the morning.

14 A. Very well.

15 Q. I'm going to do my part to try to finish today. I need your

16 cooperation. In your book --

17 A. Yes, I apologise.

18 Q. That's all right. In your book about -- I'm going to a different

19 subject now -- in your book that's the Carsija u Prijedor u book, and I'm

20 referring to the English summary only, page 22, I'm just going to tell you

21 what that English summary says, sir. "Mirzat continues his story and

22 gives an account of the retreat of the remains of Korevska Ceta Kurevo

23 companies. In his opinion, the blame for what happened in Prijedor lies

24 with the leader of the SDA who betrayed their own people." Now, my first

25 question is who is Mirzat?

Page 12782

1 A. Mirzat is my neighbour from Prijedor. He lives somewhere in

2 [redacted] today and I don't know, Your Honour, I can reveal his identity.

3 His name is Mirzet Borazerovic, and he lives in [redacted]. So I hope that

4 will not create any problems for him. And he used to be my neighbour in

5 Prijedor.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps just in the interests of caution, we should

7 redact the location.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree with that.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. [Microphone not activated].

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's how it will be. The whereabouts of

12 this person will be redacted. His name, however, will be retained in the

13 transcript as stated by the witness.


15 Q. Sir, can you tell us what it means that the SDA later betrayed his

16 own people?

17 A. In the political biography of Mirza Mujadzic the leader of the SDA

18 party in Prijedor, and many people are upset with him. There is a stain

19 on that biography. I don't know if you had the opportunity -- and I need

20 to be a little more detailed here, not too long though, I don't know if

21 you ever saw the Radio Prijedor audio cassettes in which three years

22 later, Simo Miskovic, the leader of the Serbian Democratic Party publicly

23 talks about how the 30th of April, which is a key date in the destruction

24 of the Prijedor municipality. On that day, Mr. Mujadzic came to the

25 barracks to see Captain Arsic and Lieutenant Zeljaja, and in the presence

Page 12783

1 of the SDA leader, practically reached an agreement to hand over power in

2 Prijedor without firing one bullet, and this is what it was like,

3 Mr. Attorney. Many friends believe, many people in Prijedor believe that

4 with that act, Mirza Mujadzic betrayed his own people.

5 Q. Thank you. Referring again to the Carsija book, and this is page

6 55 of the English summary, there is a section in your book where you talk

7 about Muslims who committed crimes against their own people. And what you

8 said was, if this summary is correct, "It is not often mentioned that some

9 of the Muslims committed despicable crimes against their own people. Some

10 of them were even more cruel than Serbs." And then you give a list of 15

11 people who you claim were part of that group. And I'd like to go through

12 that list as briefly as we can.

13 The first one on the list is Sead Besic, and you indicate that he

14 was from Kozarac, that he was loyal to the new Serbian state and worked

15 for the SDB, he denounced and disarmed Bosniaks and Croats and played a

16 key role in overthrowing the legally elected government of the SDA and HDZ

17 and bringing the SDS to power. After a genocide in the region of Prijedor

18 he was promoted and moved to the security service centre in Banja Luka

19 where he remains to the present day. Correct?

20 A. Yes. Shortly afterwards, he had -- he was forced to retire and

21 there was no longer any work for him in the Public Security Services in

22 Banja Luka, and I think that today he's living in Prijedor.

23 Q. But the second person on the list is Hamdija Handzic. He was a

24 major in the JNA apparently, an artillery major. His artillery units

25 destroyed houses and killed people you say in Kostajnica, Jasenovac,

Page 12784

1 Lipik, Pakrac, Kozarac, Prijedor and the surrounding villages of Carakovo,

2 Hambarine, and Borcani --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: He also destroyed houses and killed people in

5 Gradacac, Orasje, Brcko, Bihac, Bosanska Krupa, correct?

6 A. Yes, Hamdija Hadzic called Mikula, little Mikola. A very good

7 acquaintance of mine. I was surprised when in reporting for TV Sarajevo

8 in 1991 from the front in Croatia, in an artillery regiment, I was

9 surprised when I saw Hamdija Hadzic. Everything was clear to me.

10 Sead Besic is married to a Serb. Hamdija Hadzic also, so they have mixed

11 marriages. Even though I have nothing against mixed marriages, a large

12 number of people who lived -- who had married Serb women accepted the

13 ideology at that time which was conducted at that time by the Serbian

14 authorities, and they expressed loyalty and actively participated in the

15 killing of their own people.

16 Q. Number 3 is a person named Zijad Music, aka Ziko?

17 A. Not Ziko, I apologise, but Ziko. He is one of the most notorious

18 members of the infamous elite squad which was called "el manijakos." I

19 would like to have a proper translation of that term "el manijakos," which

20 were equipped and trained by Radmilo Zeljaja and they acted as part of the

21 343rd Motorised Brigade in Croatia, and then that Brigade was just called

22 the 43rd Motorised Brigade.

23 Q. The translation of "el manijakos" is the maniacs. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, more or less. And that is how they behaved.

Page 12785

1 Q. Number 4 is Asmir Music, a Serbian volunteer, destroyed and among

2 other things set the house of HM on fire, took part in the mass killings

3 during the cleansing of the villages surrounding Prijedor in Croatia and

4 BH. Correct?

5 A. Yes, Asmir Muhic is the son of Husein Zika [phoen]. He also

6 participated in that. He's a cousin of Sia Music Zika [phoen], so

7 sometimes they acted together.

8 Q. Number 5 is Zlatan Blazevic, who you say was the founder and

9 commander of the "los manijakos," the maniacs, and he specialized in

10 killing, chronic alcoholic, looter, and killer. True?

11 A. Zlatan Blazevic, yes, the son of Anto, a Croat and his mother was

12 a Muslim, was also a member of -- "el manijakos." And in one action they

13 conducted somewhere in the corridor, he was killed sometime in 1992 and

14 1993, in late 1992 or in early 1993. But his own brother, Atko Blazevic

15 came in his place and he's also on that list.

16 Q. So Atko is number 6 on the list and you've already mentioned him

17 so --

18 A. Yes. He's the brother of Zlatan Blazevic.

19 Q. I will now go to number 7, Emsud Sabic, aka, Sabo, a cafe owner

20 was a volunteer financed the Chetnik unit of Zoran Karlica, took part in

21 mass killings around Gradacac and Orasje, Bihac and Derventa, permanent

22 sponsor and supplier of the Serbian army, provides them with food and

23 cigarettes. Correct?

24 A. Yes. Sabic shabo is a well known merchant in Prijedor and he owns

25 a coffee shop. He's also married to a close cousin of Zoran Karlica. One

Page 12786

1 of the commanders in the 343 or the 43rd Motorised Brigade of Radmilo

2 Zeljaja and he actively participated in the fighting around Gradacac,

3 Brod, Derventa, and other places where the Prijedor Brigade acted, the

4 Prijedor Serb Brigade.

5 Q. Number 8 is Sabahudin Zulic, you describe as a Chetnik and member

6 of Zoran Karlica's unit, distinguished itself in atrocities and murders in

7 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, destroyed Stari Grad, Lukavica,

8 Partizankska Street, M. Suljanovica Street in Prijedor, destroyed villages

9 near Prijedor. Correct?

10 A. No. He didn't live in Partizankska Street but he lived near the

11 Parisankso cemetery and he was the closest neighbour of Zoran Karlica and

12 he was also his work colleague. They went to war together in Croatia to

13 fight together in Croatia, and after that, they went to Bosnia.

14 Q. Number 9 is Goran Egrlic, Serbian volunteer at all fronts in

15 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, personal driver and body guard of Vladimir

16 Arsic and Radmilo Zeljaja, two notorious Chetnik officers, correct?

17 A. Yes. Goran Ergerlic, son of Husad [phoen] and mother Dragica

18 [phoen], that is his father is Muslim and his mother is Serb, up to the

19 war, that is until 1992, he worked as a driver at the SDK service. And

20 when the war started, when the war in Croatia started, when the Brigade

21 under the command of Radmilo Zeljaja went against Croatia because he was

22 his driver of Zeljaja's and his personal escort, he was slightly wounded.

23 That is I have to mention him, that in Croatia somewhere around the Pakrac

24 or Pikan [phoen], there was an attack on Radmilo Zeljaja, an assassination

25 attempt, but they managed to get out alive. They survived.

Page 12787

1 Q. Number 10 is Fatima Kararic a professor at grammar school in

2 Prijedor. You say about her that she used to break in and loot abandoned

3 apartments and move Chetniks in. She personally evicted her Bosniak and

4 Croatian colleagues. Then you say, She is responsible for the ethnic

5 cleansing in the region of Prijedor, an accomplice in the murder of the

6 professors of the grammar school, Muhammed Cehajic, Fikret Mujkic, Latif

7 Benic, and Husein Crnkic. True?

8 A. Fatima Kararic, a Muslim, is a person who worked as a teacher in

9 the grammar school and she was married to a Serb man. His last name was

10 Sipovac, and he worked in the Prijedor military department. And I

11 remember very well that in 1991, when she organised at the Prijedor

12 grammar school two lines of children who threw flowers on the Prijedor

13 Brigade led by Radmilo Zeljaja and Zoran Karlica who were returning from

14 the Croatian front. They were having orgies in the streets of Prijedor.

15 They were firing in the streets.

16 And Fatima Kararic, together with her followers people who thought

17 the same as her in the Prijedor grammar school, she then used these

18 children from the school to throw flowers and the brigade and the troops

19 the soldiers who were coming back from Croatia where they had killed

20 Croatian people. In the Omarska camp, counsel -- I'll be very brief. In

21 the Omarska camp, teacher Fikret Mujakic was killed, teacher Husein

22 Crnkic, and the head master of the Prijedor grammar school where Fatima

23 Kararic worked and Latif Benic. So I would just like to mention these

24 three.

25 And they were killed and a life story, their biography, Fatima

Page 12788

1 Kararic accused them of some imaginary things and their life was cut short

2 in the camp of Omarska. They were killed in Omarska.

3 Q. Number 11 is Ernest Badnjevic who you say from the beginning of

4 the war wore a Chetnik uniform and provided services for the Chetnik army

5 through the integral firm of which he was a joint owner, correct?

6 A. Yes. He had a special duty. He would assign for the Radmilo

7 Zeljaja Brigade he would decide on all the propaganda tasks. And he wore

8 a uniform and he even went to wage war somewhere in -- on the front,

9 somewhere in Bosnia or in Croatia. He used to be a youth official in the

10 Prijedor municipality. He was a member of the SK committee.

11 Counsel, I'd just have to stress that this is a lot longer list,

12 but I have just put in the book people who were the most prominent, those

13 who were known by the most people in Prijedor. There should be some

14 additional lists but not many, during those times. However, many Muslims,

15 Bosniaks, Croats, they were aware of what they can expect, and they did

16 not want to buckle under pressure or, God forbid, accept the humiliation

17 to accept the Serb or Chetnik ideology, which we can see in this list,

18 some of them did accept it in order to save their own skin.

19 Q. We have four more. Let's get through them as quickly as we can,

20 please. Zlatan Crnalic was a pilot in the Serbian air force?

21 A. Yes, Zlatan Crnalic, again my neighbour on that list, most people

22 are my neighbours. This is son of Hajro. Before 1992 he was active in

23 the army. He was used to be a pilot in the Yugoslav air force, and he

24 flew from Berovica Slavonja on a plane. He flew into the Banja Luka

25 airport. He became loyal to the Serb authorities, and he became a pilot

Page 12789

1 in the Serb air force.

2 Q. And in that process did some bombing, you say he bombed Bihac,

3 Cazin, Kladusa, Krupa, Travnik, Vlasic, and in that process killed

4 numerous innocent civilians.

5 A. Yes. He was active in the air force of the Republika Srpska, and

6 it is well known where and which parts of Bosnia this air force was active

7 during the conflict in Bosnia.

8 Q. Number 13 is Muhamed Sarajlic. He was a reserve policeman who you

9 say signed a certificate of loyalty to Serbian authorities and wearing a

10 uniform of Serbian police took part in the ethnic cleansing in Prijedor

11 region and the deportation of people in the camps. True?

12 A. Yes, true.

13 Q. Number 14 is Sead Alajbegovic. He remained loyal to Serbian

14 authorities after he signed the certificate of loyalty. Became their main

15 supplier of food and cigarettes, donated large amounts of foreign

16 currency, money was used for salaries?

17 A. Yes, that's correct. That's true.

18 Q. Finally number 15, Zlatan Selimbegovic, a Serbian volunteer, wore

19 the Chetnik uniform, and has been on all fronts in Bosnia-Herzegovina

20 where the Chetnik army committed crimes.

21 Okay? Is that true?

22 A. Yes, that's true, counsel.

23 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to go to a different subject now.

24 I want to talk about how the camp at Omarska was created. In your

25 original 1994 statement to the Prosecutor, you told the people who you

Page 12790

1 were talking to that a gentleman by the name of Milan Andjic was one of

2 the people behind the setting up of the Omarska camp. And then earlier,

3 in 1993, in a statement you made in Zagreb, you said, "The extremists that

4 organised and financed the Omarska detention camp were Milan Andjic, a

5 shopkeeper from Omarska, and owner of the Trias tavern, Nedjo Delic, owner

6 of two restaurants called Europe, one in Prijedor and the other in

7 Omarska. The name of the commander of their paramilitary formations which

8 they organised and financed was Nenad Radanovic, AKA, Cigo, who killed

9 several hundred civilians during the cleansing of Kozarac."

10 Let me first ask you what you know about this person Cigo?

11 A. Nenad Radanovic, also known as Cigo, he used to be, before the

12 war, a taxi driver in Prijedor. He was a close friend of -- that is his

13 senior friend and colleague was Nenad Andjic, a merchant from Omarska, a

14 very influential man in this area. When the war in Croatia started in

15 1991, Milan Andjic personally because he was a very rich man, he collected

16 a group of young men from Omarska and the Prijedor area and he personally

17 dressed them and they were armed by the then army, the Yugoslav army.

18 They were -- they underwent special training at the Manjaca

19 training ground and they took part in the war in Croatia as a special

20 elite unit from Omarska. A large amount of looted things from Croatia,

21 which this unit under the command of Nenad Radanovic, Cigo, brought --

22 they were brought to Omarska to the very large yard of Milan Andjic.

23 That's where they were brought. In that yard, he sold building material

24 and other things, kitchen appliances.

25 Later on, Milan Andjic managed to sell all these things through

Page 12791

1 his shops while Radanovic continued to take part in combat in various

2 fronts near corridor, in Derventa, in Gradacac, and other fronts in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And one of the darkest plots in his operations was

4 the ethnic cleansing of the right side, so to speak, of the villages that

5 are neighbouring Kozarac. During the ethnic cleansing of Kozarac, and the

6 villages that are linked to Kozarac, Jakupovici, Brdjani, a large number

7 of civilians were killed, women and children, and on that side, along this

8 direction, it was the brigade of Nenad Radanovic, Cigo, which was involved

9 on that side, and he is thought to have committed many crimes that were

10 committed there, a large number of crimes.

11 You asked me further on about Nenad Radanovic, Cigo, what I know

12 about him. I know that later on in the Prijedor municipality, he became

13 one of the vice-presidents of the Prijedor municipality, precisely thanks

14 to his war achievements.

15 Q. A statement that you made to German authorities, you were asked

16 about the two people we've mentioned, Andjic and Delic that you described

17 as people responsible for setting up Omarska camp, and you said the

18 following: "Both those individuals are influential business people from

19 the area --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel slow down when reading,

21 please.


23 Q. Both those individuals are influential business people from the

24 area and are almost the most important politicians there. Both were

25 responsible for ensuring that the Serbian population formed the proper

Page 12792

1 judgement of the Muslims, that is they were the intellectuals who were

2 responsible for shaping opinion.

3 Do you stand by that statement?

4 A. This is all completely incorrect, sir. I don't understand that,

5 sir. I've known them for such a long time. I would never have said that,

6 that they were intellectuals. They are merchants, profiteers. They had

7 their own bars, restaurant. I never said that they had established a

8 camp. These were the people who financed some of those camps in part.

9 That is completely untrue. I don't believe that I could have stated such

10 a thing, particularly not in 1993.

11 Q. So when you said in your 1994 statement to the OTP that Milan

12 Andjic was one of the people behind the setting up of Omarska camp, were

13 you misquoted? Was that a bad translation? Or what do you want to say

14 about that?

15 A. 1994, I said that Milan Andjic was one of the people who financed

16 and organised the camp, yes. His task was, given by the Crisis Staff, was

17 to organise the camp, to supply the food that we in fact got only once a

18 day. He often came to the Omarska camp. Let me just tell you and only at

19 night, sometime from midnight onwards. He took out Dedo Crnalic, who used

20 to be a business partner of his from Prijedor, and for many nights they

21 spoke together. Dedo was together with me in the premises, and he was a

22 good friend of mine.

23 So I asked him, what have you got to talk to Milan Andjic about

24 when we although that Milan Andjic was one of the organisers of this camp,

25 that he was one of his biggest sponsors, but Dedo was an elderly man, he

Page 12793

1 was my heave and he said, well, I have to speak to someone to find out

2 what will happen to us in this camp. Unfortunately, that Crnalic was

3 killed on the 7th of August, in the convoy of camp prisoners who were

4 being taken to Manjaca.

5 And counsel, let me just ask you something. I apologise. This

6 statement given in Zagreb, I don't know who I gave that to. Was that some

7 centre for information with the Croatian government? And Jadrinka Sigim

8 [phoen] may have take then statement, who was a co-prisoner of mine in the

9 camp, who then started to work for the information centre in Zagreb. And

10 she started to forge our statements to give false statements regarding our

11 stay in the camp, and she was -- she was diminishing everything that

12 happened to us in 1992 in order to put forward her own Croatian

13 belonging. So I completely would like to distance myself from this

14 statement, and I would request to have a look at it again. Thank you.

15 Q. I'm showing you the statement that I was referring to and I don't

16 know where it came from. The translation doesn't really tell us. Maybe

17 you'll recognise it. Maybe you won't.

18 A. I am sorry, I can't find that. On which page is that?

19 Q. Are you looking for the quote that I gave you?

20 A. Yes, yes, the quote. I'm really interested?

21 Q. On the English version it was on page 5. It begins with: "The

22 extremists that organised and financed the Omarska detention camp were

23 Milan Andjic," and then it goes on from there.

24 A. That's correct. Extremists, yes.

25 Q. You found it?

Page 12794

1 A. No, no, no, I haven't quite found it. This, what is said here,

2 something is a little confused here. Could you just give me the code

3 number below, please? What I have, the last 3 number, 746, 747, 748, 749,

4 750, the last three numbers of the code number.

5 Q. Well, you have the document and I don't so I can't find -- I'm

6 looking at the English version.

7 A. Yes, very well. Can you just repeat, if you don't mind, if you

8 can repeat your question so that I can answer you? What I said and what I

9 remember and have always said and I stand by it, is that Milan Andjic was

10 in charge of this camp and Nedjo Delic, somewhat less, and that Andjic was

11 the most responsible political person. Everybody listened to him in

12 Omarska. He was the one who was financing and organising it, and the main

13 organiser is well known. These were the civilian authorities of the

14 municipality of Prijedor, and this is what I said like in the Stakic case

15 and Milomir Stakic was one of the responsible. These were the civilian

16 authorities of the Prijedor municipality who were responsible for it. If

17 you don't have that statement, I have, so I can give you one.

18 Q. Well, in the 1993 statement in Zagreb, that you have before you

19 now, sir, it is correct that --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- That that statement at least indicates that you said: "The

22 extremists that organised and financed the Omarska detention camp were

23 Milan Andjic, a shopkeeper from Omarska and owner of the Trias tavern,

24 Nedjo Delic, owner of two restaurants called Europe, one in Prijedor the

25 other in Omarska."

Page 12795

1 That's at least what the statement says that you said, doesn't it?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sivac --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's correct. Yes,

4 that's what I'm saying now. That's what I stand by today. In all of

5 these statements, I mentioned these people. That means that's correct.


7 Q. The statement I'm actually more interested at this point is the

8 one you gave to German authorities, and I now want to hand you that one.

9 I want to refer you to page 6 and I've made a little mark there where the

10 paragraph starts that I'm interested in. You see that?

11 A. Yes. I can see it, sir.

12 Q. I think it's your position that there is something not correct

13 about that, true?

14 A. A large part of this statement has not been translated correctly.

15 As far as I remember, the interpreter, when I was giving the statement,

16 this was an interpreter, a Croat woman, who had lived for many years in

17 Germany, her name was Blazenkovic, and I never read this statement. This

18 is some kind of a shortened version. And everything that you can see here

19 has been taken out of the context of my statement. So my statements were

20 shortened. They were edited so to speak.

21 Q. Did you say that these people, Andjic and Delic, were responsible

22 for shaping opinion?

23 A. No. Not opinion. They were responsible for establishing a camp.

24 But they were influential. Nedo -- Andjic was just an ordinary village

25 politician. They were not intellectuals, I don't understand how this

Page 12796

1 could have entered into my statement.

2 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to go back now to your book, the

3 Carsija book. That book, under a heading called, "Calm before the storm,"

4 you wrote this: "No sooner than the war broke out, Milan Andjic formed

5 his own paramilitary unit. Momcilo Radanovic aka, Cigo, a former taxi

6 driver was appointed its commander. The long-held dream of the Omarska

7 peasants to take over Prijedor finally came true."

8 My question is: What is this long-held dream of the Omarska

9 peasants to which you refer?

10 A. Let me tell you, Mr. Ackerman. My answer -- for my answer I would

11 have to go back into history, into the history of the Prijedor

12 municipality, and that would need a lot of time here, but to cut the long

13 story short, Omarska -- what has been a characteristic Chetnik region, and

14 I think that you perhaps understand what that means. It had a deep

15 Chetnik tradition, and it has always been region which did not accept,

16 although they were part of the Prijedor municipality, frequently they had

17 some kind of rebellions, they rebelled against the legally elected

18 authority in Prijedor in communist times. They simply frequently refused

19 to accept, and publicly said that if a Muslim was to head the Prijedor

20 municipality, for them that was incomprehensible.

21 They used pejorative terms. They did not want to accept authority

22 in Prijedor municipality if led by a Turk, which is a derogatory for a

23 Muslim, and I can list here countless examples when I reported in my very

24 rich journalistic experience and I can mention just one incident. When

25 the Omarska mine was founded, which was made in the local commune of

Page 12797

1 Omarska, I was told by one of the leaders, Milan Andjic or someone else

2 that practically all of them, and just them, would be working in the

3 Omarska mine. They couldn't accept that in these mine, which was one of

4 the most modern in Europe, would have to be employing experts who knew

5 about the exploitation of mines.

6 They kept saying that only people from Omarska would be working

7 there regardless of their training and there were incidents that villages

8 in Omarska, very frequently created incidents that the water supply was

9 needed for the -- was cut, which was needed for the technological process

10 and they were protesting because allegedly they had not been given a job

11 in the mine. Their tendency and I do know that, that for a while this was

12 a little freer, the way that they were start stating what they wanted is

13 that the local commune of Omarska and many villages surrounding Omarska,

14 they were even writing petitions, demanding for their area to be attached

15 to Banja Luka, where Serbs had the authority, where Serbs were in charge.

16 Q. Thank you. Very briefly, I want to talk just ask you one question

17 about the running of Omarska and Trnopolje. In your testimony in the

18 Stakic case in July, page 6.753, you were asked about the role of the army

19 in the running of Omarska, and you said this, "I don't know what the chain

20 of command was. I'm not familiar with that. But as a prisoner, I had the

21 impression that they didn't have any business connections with the camp.

22 In Omarska, as well as Trnopolje, and Keraterm, there were not soldiers,

23 and that's why I think that the army did not have any authority over these

24 camps, that they were run by the civilian authorities of Prijedor

25 municipality."

Page 12798

1 My question is: Do you stand by that statement made last July in

2 the Stakic case?

3 A. Yes. I stand by that. The organisation and the scheme of the

4 camp is the work of the civilian authorities of the Prijedor municipality,

5 of the Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality. And chain of command and

6 the management, administration in the camp, was established according to

7 what I said in my first statement, in the camps of Omarska, Keraterm and

8 Trnopolje, at the main position --

9 Q. I only asked you if you stood by that statement and you said that

10 you did. I want to now refer you --

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. -- to another issue. In your November 1994 statement to the

13 Office of the Prosecutor, you were referring -- this is on page 13 of the

14 English version -- you were referring to the period of July, August of

15 1991. You said, "Retreating JNA forces at that point arrive in Prijedor.

16 They harassed the civilian population, fired at Muslim homes," and then

17 this is a quote directly from your statement, "The authorities had lost

18 control and there was anarchy." That's true, isn't it?

19 A. Yes. Counsel, unfortunately, Hasan Talundic a Muslim was at the

20 head of the police station in Prijedor who at that time and in that post

21 was only there formally. All the Serb army units that were returning from

22 the front in Croatia wreaked havoc in Prijedor. They would fire at

23 random, and the security services could do nothing because they were

24 backed by Radim Zeljaja and Vladimir Arsic and people from the military

25 leadership in Prijedor.

Page 12799

1 Q. And right after this statement: "The authorities had lost control

2 and there was anarchy," you say the following, "The Muslim chief of police

3 said he could do nothing as the army supported these people. I was in

4 touch with the authorities. There was chaos in town. The police were

5 powerless as they were mainly Serb anyway. The military effectively took

6 over." True?

7 A. To a certain extent, I do agree, and I said in answer to your

8 previous question, that the police and people from the security services

9 could do nothing because this chaos was created by drunken soldiers,

10 soldiers who were returning from the front in Croatia, and I said that

11 nobody could do anything with them. They were only responsible to the

12 military leadership of the Prijedor municipality. Otherwise, there could

13 be a confrontation because the Muslim at the head of the security service,

14 Hasan Talundzic, it was impossible for him. These Serb soldiers running

15 amuck throughout Prijedor were -- and they were very well armed, they were

16 really very well armed, it was really very difficult to oppose them.

17 Q. And this at least continued into April of 1992, because in your

18 book, the Carsija book, you say various gangs took justice into their own

19 hands. True? With regard to April of 1992.

20 A. Yes. But only after the takeover of power. Before the takeover,

21 on the 30th of April, all the incidents in Prijedor were committed by

22 members of the Serb army. Only after the takeover, on the 30th of April,

23 which is the key date in municipality of Prijedor, then paramilitary

24 formations and gangs began to be active in Prijedor, headed by Zoran

25 Zigic, Djole Dosan and others.

Page 12800

1 Q. Yes. Back again to your 1994 statement to the Prosecutor, page

2 14, and we are in the -- near the end of 1991 again, you say this: "Serbs

3 returned from the front and the black market in weapons boomed. Automatic

4 rifles cost a thousand Deutschmarks; semi-automatic, 800 Deutschmarks;

5 pistols, 500 Deutschmarks; and grenades for 10 Deutschmarks. They sold in

6 large numbers. Richer Muslims bought them."

7 Correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. These were weapons that these soldiers were bringing back from the

10 front, from the fighting in Croatia, that then were being sold to, as you

11 say, to richer Muslims?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Amongst others. Amongst others.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Amongst others, yes, that's correct.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... It seems that

15 the richer Muslims were the only buyers.


17 Q. Did you answer?

18 A. Yes. Others too. Yes. Others as well, and Muslims, but Serbs

19 didn't really need that because they received free weapons and they had

20 large quantities of those. But in order to drink and to continue to wreak

21 havoc in town, the Serb soldiers needed money because they didn't have too

22 much money. They weren't really very well paid, so they needed to sell

23 them in order to be able to continue to drink and to expand it a little.

24 One of the main smugglers of weapons at that time was Srdjo Srdic and we

25 mentioned him. He was a deputy in the BH assembly and later in the

Page 12801

1 Serbian assembly and another person by the name of Darko Mrdja called Sula

2 he now owns a jewellery store in Prijedor and in Belgrade, as far as I

3 know. Srdjo Srdic and Darko Mrdja called Sula, sold weapons on behalf of

4 the Serb Democratic Party. And all of those who bought their weapons from

5 them later in the Omarska camp were liquidated.

6 Q. I want to talk to you now about the seizure of the relay on Mount

7 Kozara in your statement of November of 1994 which you told the judges

8 today was the most reliable because it was closest to the events, you say

9 that that relay was seized on 11 February, 1992, a very specific date. My

10 first question is this: How do you know about the seizure of this relay?

11 Where did you get the information about it? Where did you learn the

12 details?

13 A. The date, I think, was taken by memory, but I think that it

14 actually happened a little earlier, but let's let it stand. Simply

15 speaking, the TV programme that we followed over that relay at the time

16 just disappeared. Luckily for us in Prijedor, we could also receive

17 programming over the Vlasic relay and not only over the Kozara relay, so

18 many people turned their antennas towards the Vlasic relay. We could see

19 that people from Yutel which is a TV agency which broadcast its programme

20 from Sarajevo protested and said that the Kozara relay was under the

21 control of Serbian soldiers, and that they were being prevented from

22 transmitting or broadcasting their pictures to Bosnia, throughout Bosnia,

23 and a large part of Croatia.

24 I went to the Kozara relay several hundred times before that and

25 in contacts with the editor-in-chief in Sarajevo, I was tasked with trying

Page 12802

1 to go to the relay with my crew to report about what was going on there.

2 The public didn't know who actually took control of the relay. I went to

3 the SUP, to the security service, and together with Milos Jankovic, the

4 man who used to be my boss and who used to be the coding and communication

5 centre chief, and whose equipment was actually there at the relay, so

6 together with the TV equipment.

7 So we tried to get in touch by telephone with the crew up there,

8 with the people who worked, the technicians who worked at the relay, who

9 serviced the relay. However, the person who picked up the phone had a

10 very rough voice. He said he was a captain and that his army, his

11 military unit, had taken control of the relay, and we asked him could we

12 come up there and tape a report about them? And they said no. More or

13 less, he said that anybody who sets out in the direction of the relay at

14 this time is a dead man. So we didn't later -- Serb newspapers from Banja

15 Luka and the Serb television announced that the Kozara relay was taken

16 over by Milinkovic. I don't know what his first name is, Milinkovic. He

17 was a commander of a Serb paramilitary unit from the area of Prnjavor

18 which is a town close to Banja Luka. Their war nickname was Vukovi S

19 Vucjaka, the wolves from Vucjak, that's the Vucjak mountain. I'm trying

20 to help the interpreters.

21 Q. In your 1994 statement to the Prosecutor at page 17 that's exactly

22 what you said, that the relay was seized by the wolves of Vucjak with

23 Milinovic as their captain. I want to go back now to your statements to

24 the German authorities and just see if you can help me understand this.

25 What -- the statement to the German authorities says that you said

Page 12803

1 this --


3 MR. ACKERMAN: March, 1992.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Page, Mr. Ackerman?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: It's page 3 of the English version and document --

6 it's 00655982 is the ERN number at the top 25 through 30 March of 1994 is

7 when it indicates that it was taken.

8 Q. On page 3 it says, "In March, 1992, I broadcast over RTV Sarajevo

9 for the last time." Is that a true statement?

10 A. Sometime in late 1991, already our TV studio, the large TV centre

11 in Banja Luka, through which we sent in our feed to Sarajevo, was taken

12 over by people from the Serb Democratic Party in Banja Luka. And that

13 studio.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Sivac, I hate to stop you but try to answer the

15 question. It's a very simple question. You were being asked whether what

16 you state in your statement --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- is a true statement or not. Finish. That's it.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, that's correct.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So next question, Mr. Ackerman.


22 Q. Right after that it then says that you said this: "It is correct

23 that the transmitter in Kozara was taken over by paramilitary units

24 (Chetniks) from Lamovita, Bisurica, and Omarska, with the support of

25 special units in Banja Luka. This must have occurred between 21 and 28

Page 12804

1 March, 1992. Paramilitary units that did this are not the same as the

2 so-called "Wolves." Is that what you told the German authorities?

3 A. Again, I would like to protest. The statement given to the German

4 authorities was absolutely badly translated. It's been taken out of

5 context. Like I said, that statement that I provided to them, I never had

6 a chance to look at totally.

7 Q. My only question is: Is this what you told them? Did you tell

8 them what I just quoted to you?

9 A. No. I didn't say anything like that. I was decisive and specific

10 and I said that this was committed by the wolves from Vucjak and it was

11 done with the assistance of certain paramilitary units from the area of

12 Lamovita and Omarska. And I insisted that they put down that this was

13 done by the wolves from Vucjak and here it says something but that's not

14 quite it.

15 Q. How is it that the German authorities got this all so wrong?

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, that calls for speculation from the

17 witness.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Koumjian.


20 Q. If you know, how is it they got it wrong?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you answer that question, Mr. Sivac. If you

22 can't, just say I'm not in a position to answer. If you can, answer it.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the reasons. Probably

24 it was a bad interpreter. Like I said, that woman had difficulty in

25 speaking my language.

Page 12805


2 Q. Did you tell them that the takeover happened between 21 and 28

3 March, 1992? Did you say that?

4 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

5 Q. Eight months later, after you talked to the German authorities,

6 you then talked to the OTP, and it was that statement in which you said

7 that it was taken over on 11 February, 1992. Where did you get that

8 precise date from, 11 February, 1992?

9 A. I don't know. Probably I recalled that date. I located it to be

10 on that date. But...

11 Q. Then I'm curious about this: You've told us that your best memory

12 is that which is closest to the events, that being your statement of

13 1994. In 2001, in a telephone conversation with an OTP investigator by

14 the name of Malik you said, "The transmitter was not taken over in

15 February of 1992 but in the fall of 1991."

16 My question is: What caused you in 2001, seven years later, to so

17 dramatically change the story that you were telling in 1994?

18 A. I provided a slightly more detailed explanation at the time to

19 Tariq Malik. The security of the Kozara relay at that time, in the autumn

20 of 1991, was entrusted to Serbs. A Serb was in charge of the relay

21 security. And I assume that already at that time the Kozara relay was

22 practically in the hands of the Serbs. Later, it came out that this was

23 actually true, when these wolves from Vucjak came to take over the relay,

24 nobody put up any resistance, even though the people, the security people

25 there at the relay were armed. So it was all already agreed upon.

Page 12806

1 Again, I repeat, I spoke with Mr. Tariq Malik often without an

2 interpreter, so please, all those parts of my statement that I provided to

3 him without the presence of an interpreter, take note, because he does not

4 speak my language very well. So please take that with some reserve. I

5 would always object when he asked to take my statement, if I was

6 travelling in my car or if I was at work, and I would always ask him to

7 just do it sometimes when I was able to fully focus on that, because these

8 events happened a long time ago, 11 years ago, so I needed time to collect

9 myself and to recall. Sometimes I forget my date of birth.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And my name.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: How much longer do you have?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would say half an hour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Half an hour. So may I suggest a short break of

15 about ten minutes maximum?


17 JUDGE AGIUS: Because in any case, we've been sitting for an hour

18 and a half. Ten minutes, if that's okay with you. And then we try to

19 finish, okay? Thank you.

20 --- Recess taken at 1.02 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1.19 p.m.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. [Microphone not activated].


24 Q. Sir, I want to ask you a few questions now about your contention

25 that you saw Mr. Brdjanin in Omarska, and first I want to talk a little

Page 12807

1 bit about your knowledge of Mr. Brdjanin. In one of your telephone

2 interviews with the Prosecutor, 12 December of 2001, you apparently were

3 asked about your knowledge of Brdjanin and you said you first encountered

4 him in 1988 or 1989. Then you said that the next time you saw him was the

5 end of 1990 or beginning of 1991, and according to the report of that

6 interview, you said, "I saw, end of 1990, early 1991, I saw that he was

7 occupying a high level position in Banja Luka." Tell us what was that

8 high level position.

9 A. Let me tell you again, this stems from the interview or a

10 conversation I had with Tariq Malik, I believe. And again, I apologise to

11 Mr. Tariq Malik but he doesn't know my language very well, it seems to me,

12 he speaks it poorly.

13 Q. Is it your position that you did not say that? That will end it

14 if you just tell me that.

15 A. Yes. Some of it is true. Your client, Mr. Brdjanin, I met many,

16 many years ago, perhaps he remembers that.

17 Q. Is it true that in the end of 1990 or early 1991, you saw that he

18 was occupying a high level position in Banja Luka? Is that true or not

19 true?

20 A. I think that this was true.

21 Q. What was that?

22 A. I don't know exactly at that time what his position was but in the

23 Serb Democratic Party, he was at a high position.

24 Q. Well, when you say you saw that he was occupying a high level

25 position, how did you see that?

Page 12808

1 A. I believe it was according to newspaper articles, things that I

2 saw in Banja Luka television, according to press clippings that I read in

3 the Banja Luka press.

4 Q. In your 1994 statement to the Prosecutor at page 34 of the English

5 version, describing the delegation visit to Omarska, you say in that

6 statement that it happened about the 28th of July. Correct?

7 A. Yes. I said that, around or about the 28th, in the first instance

8 I couldn't remember the exact date. That's why I said around or about,

9 but later on, when I linked all the events I realised that it had happened

10 earlier than that.

11 Q. Well, the linking of events you're talking about was the stories

12 about a delegation from Banja Luka visiting Prijedor, and the newspaper

13 article that does have a date. Is that the linking you're talking about?

14 A. No. A newspaper article, I saw it here for the first time, but

15 all what I spoke about in 1994, I spoke according to my memory, to my

16 recollection. It is possible that I have missed the date of the exact

17 visit, that I have -- I have dated it to be, to have happened in the month

18 of July and I stand by that. And I said about because I was not sure

19 about the exact date.

20 Q. Well, when you said "about the 28th of July," you certainly were

21 indicating that it was near the end of July, weren't you?

22 A. Let me tell you again, Alma Qureshi who was the interpreter, she

23 was interpreting the statement, and she -- I don't think that during the

24 giving the statement I could have made so many mistakes. I think I have

25 said about the 17th or the 18th and she had said around the 28th.

Page 12809

1 Mr. Ackerman, let me tell --

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... You're now blaming the

3 translator again?

4 A. Six years later I received that statement and some, many, I mean

5 some things in that statement I don't agree with the translation, the way

6 that it's been translated. There are problems, mistakes with the dates,

7 and in the pronouns. I was speaking in third person singular and the lady

8 interpreting was interpreting in the first person singular, but again this

9 doesn't influence the crux of my statement, the essence of my statement.

10 Q. So you're saying that the translation from the 1994 statement is

11 poor in many places? Is that your position?

12 A. Not in many places but there are mistakes and they are appearing

13 now. Last time, in the previous trials, I have also asked for some things

14 in that statement to be corrected, and as I said, the first time I saw the

15 statement was six years later.

16 Q. Didn't they read it back to you once it was completed in 1994 and

17 didn't you sign the bottom of every page saying that it was correct?

18 A. Yes. At that time, I was read the first few pages, and because

19 the investigator stayed with me a long time, I thought that the rest of

20 the text would not contain such major mistakes. I signed but then it

21 turned out later that there were mistakes, mistakes in dates, mistakes in

22 pronoun, in cases and so on.

23 Q. So you missed those mistakes when it was read back to you

24 initially? You didn't notice them?

25 A. No. In 1994, what was read to me was only the first few pages of

Page 12810

1 my statement. As I said, because the investigators were in a hurry

2 because another person was waiting to give a statement, so in a nonchalant

3 way I said, I believe that you will do a good job of it and -- because I

4 would never have said some things that are in the statement. When I was

5 explaining to the gentleman about us Muslims, Bosniaks, I said that we,

6 and I was speaking we, European Muslims, Bosnian Muslims, we would even

7 drink alcohol or eat pork. And she interpreted that in the first person

8 singular, as if I was the one who was drinking alcohol, I was the one who

9 was eating pork. So this is just one -- one stupid mistake.

10 Q. Well, I'm looking at that statement and there is a document at the

11 back of that statement. The first part of it is called "Witness

12 acknowledgement." What that says is, "This statement has been read over

13 to me in the blank language and is true to the best of my knowledge and

14 recollection." Then it appears to have your signature and a date.

15 Underneath that, sir, is an interpreter's certification for

16 Alma Qureshi. Alma Qureshi says that she has been informed that you speak

17 and understand the Bosnian language and that she orally translated the

18 above statement from English to the Bosnian language in the presence of

19 Nusret Sivac who appeared to have heard and understood my translation of

20 this statement. Nusret Sivac has acknowledged that the facts and matters

21 set out in his statement as translated by me are true to the best of his

22 knowledge and recollection and accordingly signed his signature where

23 indicated.

24 Now, I'm going to have the usher show this to you so you can tell

25 us if that's your signature that appears on it.

Page 12811

1 A. Yes, yes. I said that I had signed. Yes, this is my signature,

2 of course I said that I had signed. But as I said, only first few pages

3 have been translated back to me. I didn't wait because it would have

4 lasted a long time to translate everything else. And I believe that

5 everything was fine and done correctly but here you go, there are some

6 problems, as I can see, and last time there were too.

7 Q. So when you signed a statement saying that the entire statement

8 had been translated to you, that was incorrect, wasn't it?

9 A. Well, it wasn't incorrect. I mean I said -- I didn't -- when I

10 signed, I didn't realise what consequences would have resulted from this.

11 I mean, more or less. I thought that this was all correct.

12 Q. More importantly, let's talk about Alma Qureshi who said that she

13 read the entire statement back to you in the Bosnian language and that you

14 said that you understood it. Now, why would she not tell the truth and

15 sign a statement that's not the truth?

16 A. I don't know. I don't know. That's her problem. And it's also

17 my problem because I didn't understand at the time that it was that

18 important for me to look over everything. As I said, I believed at the

19 time I believed, I believed Ms. Qureshi who did it and the gentleman from

20 the Tribunal. That's my fault, my -- my mistake, my error. But the

21 essence of my statement is correct. The essence is what I have said in

22 the statement and I stand by that.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... You're just making this up

24 about not having been read to you and you not having understood the

25 mistakes in 1994 so that you can give different testimony now and make it

Page 12812

1 sound plausible? Isn't that what you're doing?

2 A. No. No, sir, in earlier trials I said I was dissatisfied with the

3 translation of my statement in some segments and I stand by that. Yes.

4 Q. I take it you have no idea why an official interpreter would sign

5 a false statement regarding this matter?

6 A. I don't know, but that date, and even if I had said it, perhaps at

7 that time, at that moment, I said it wrongly and perhaps it was wrongly

8 translated. I don't remember. That was in 1994. That was eight, nine

9 years ago.

10 Q. Well, in that statement in 1994, you also said that the members of

11 the delegation were Brdjanin, Kupresanin, and Vukic. Do you remember

12 that?

13 A. Yes. I remember that approximately.

14 Q. That was also incorrectly translated?

15 A. No. Perhaps I had said Kupresanin at the time, but I had made a

16 mistake thinking of someone else in the delegation. I had replaced Vojo

17 Kupresanin's name whom I knew very well and I had replaced Stojan

18 Zupljanin's name by Vojo Kupresanin. But everything else in this

19 statement stands.

20 Q. So now you're saying Kupresanin was not there?

21 A. No, no, he wasn't.

22 Q. Are you -- how about Predrag Radic? Was he there?

23 A. Yes, he was. Predrag Radic was there.

24 Q. You said when this group of people arrived, that inmates from all

25 the buildings were assembled outside, correct?

Page 12813

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Any exceptions to that? Was it all the inmates?

3 A. I don't know. From this northern side, I saw that almost all camp

4 prisoners were in front of their premises on the concrete plateau, on the

5 pista. Whether the camp prisoners from the so-called glass house were

6 taken out, I don't know. Where the women were at the same time, again, I

7 cannot recall that.

8 Q. After this delegation, it was a very short time, was it not, until

9 the journalists arrived?

10 A. No. Together with delegation there was also a group of reporters.

11 Q. No, I'm talking about -- I'm talking about the western

12 journalists, Penny Marshall, Vulliamy, those people, they arrived --

13 A. Long, long time. These days seemed to be like eternity to us. I

14 think these journalists arrived on the 5th of August, that's as far as I

15 can recall.

16 Q. Well, if this delegation you're talking about was there on 28

17 July, as you said initially in 1994, then --

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: I object. That misquotes, he said about the 28th

19 of July.


21 Q. About the 28th of July, as you said in 1994, then the journalists

22 who came would have come just a few days later, about a week, week to ten

23 days. Correct?

24 A. They arrived on the 5th of August.

25 Q. And then right after that, were you transferred to Trnopolje.

Page 12814

1 Correct?

2 A. Yes, approximately, yes. There was a large group that was moved

3 or transferred to Manjaca.

4 Q. Now, before April of 2002, you made a number of statements to the

5 OTP, to German investigators, telephone conversations with Mr. Malik. You

6 spoke about these matters a great deal. On the 26th of April, 2002, you

7 had a telephone conversation with Mr. Koumjian, and that was the first

8 time that you made the assertion the delegation that visited Omarska was

9 led by Brdjanin. Now --

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Excuse me, this might be a mistake. I've never

11 spoken on the telephone, that I recall, with Mr. Sivac.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: That's what the document says. Let me find it.

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry, I do recall. I was in the room. There

14 was a Suellen Taylor and I was in the room, that's correct, with an

15 investigator.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

17 Q. So that was the first time you made the assertion that the

18 delegation that visited Omarska was led by Brdjanin, wasn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you now deny your statement from 1994 where you said that

21 Vojo Kupresanin was there?

22 A. Well, no. I said that Vojo -- Brdjanin in my first statement, it

23 was certainly said that in the delegation there was Brdjanin too. But

24 Radic and Vojo Kupresanin too. But Vojo Kupresanin I didn't know him very

25 well so I had replaced him with Stojan Zupljanin who was the head of the

Page 12815

1 public security station at the time, and he was a member of the

2 delegation.

3 Q. So now I'm confused. Is it your position that Vojo Kupresanin was

4 there or that he was not there?

5 A. No. I said earlier, Mr. Ackerman, that together with Radoslav

6 Brdjanin, Predrag Radic, Radislav Vukic, there was another person, and I

7 know very well, and I saw that on TV, and read in the newspaper, that the

8 main group, together with Radoslav Brdjanin, always in any political

9 instances, there was always Vojo Kupresanin and Radislav Vukic so I had

10 mixed up Radislav Vukic and -- sorry, I mean Vojo Kupresanin and

11 Stojan Zupljanin because Stojan Zupljanin I didn't know him very well.

12 Q. You still didn't answer my question. Is it your position that

13 Vojo Kupresanin was there or not?

14 A. No, no, he was not.

15 Q. Not there?

16 A. No, certainly, he was not there, no.

17 Q. In your testimony in Stakic, from 30 July, at page 6.640, you said

18 this: "At first I saw Radoslav Brdjanin with a group of collaborators who

19 were in power, and they were the most powerful people in the so-called

20 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina." Who were these collaborators who

21 you refer to?

22 A. These were Radislav Vukic, Predrag Radic, and Stojan Zupljanin.

23 Q. On page 6.641, 30 July, Stakic, you made this reference to Meakic.

24 "And according to military custom, he reported to the President of the

25 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina, Radoslav Brdjanin."

Page 12816

1 Now, where did you get the idea that Brdjanin was president of the

2 Autonomous Region of Krajina?

3 A. Well, I knew. I learned what his position was.

4 Q. Well, if it's the case that he was never the President of the

5 Autonomous Region of Krajina, would that surprise you?

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Objection. Little relevance to the distinction.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer the question, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

9 question? I'm a little confused.


11 Q. If it's the case that he was never the President of the Autonomous

12 Region of Krajina, would that surprise you?

13 A. No. He was that for sure, for certain. He was the President also

14 of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Banja Luka or Bosnian

15 Krajina, depending all on how people referred that in writing, whether

16 they were calling it area or a region.

17 Q. So you are certain that he was president of the Autonomous Region

18 of Krajina and you are as certain about that as you are about everything

19 else you've told us today, correct?

20 A. Well, no. When Mr. Brdjanin was in Omarska at the time, I was not

21 clear as to his actual position, but I then saw that he had been elected

22 precisely to be the President of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina

23 or something like that. You see, at the time that was the Serb

24 authorities that had created many autonomous areas, autonomous regions,

25 whatever you want to call them.

Page 12817

1 Q. Well, if you weren't clear, then please explain why you told the

2 judges in the Stakic case, referring to Meakic, that he reported to the

3 president of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina who was Radoslav

4 Brdjanin, why did you tell them that if you weren't clear about whether

5 that was true or not?

6 A. I said that at the time when he was coming to Omarska, that was

7 what his position was.

8 Q. Okay, and you're certain of that?

9 A. I am certain. I think that's what he was.

10 Q. And you're as certain of that as you are about the other things

11 you've told us today, aren't you?

12 A. I read in the press, I was not present when your client was

13 appointed. I don't know.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Are you as certain of that as

15 you are of everything else you've told us today or not, just answer that,

16 yes or no?

17 A. Well, yes. I am certain that he was at a high position.

18 Q. Thank you. And you're certain -- and again I have to ask the

19 question: As certain of that as you are about all your other testimony

20 today? Yes or no?

21 A. Yes, yes, I am certain that he was at a high position.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... How was this person that you

23 believe was Brdjanin dressed in Omarska?

24 A. He was dressed in civilian clothes. I can't remember the

25 details. I know, sir, because for a long time, I followed the visits of

Page 12818

1 delegations and so on, and I know that the way that Radoslav Brdjanin was

2 greeted and welcomed, that was only done for people who were in a very

3 high position in authority.

4 Q. Didn't you say at one point that this was the only delegation that

5 ever visited Omarska?

6 A. That was the most important political delegation that came to

7 visit the Omarska camp. There were some other local political delegations

8 from the Prijedor area and from the Omarska area. These were of no

9 importance. So I don't have to mention them.

10 Q. Didn't you say at one point that this was the only delegation that

11 visited Omarska?

12 A. Yes. The most important. I think that's what I said, the most

13 important, the most official delegations. The other delegations turned up

14 spontaneously. They were not welcomed in any way.

15 Q. I didn't ask you that. My question is simple. Didn't you say at

16 one point that this was the only delegation that visited Omarska?

17 A. Yes. That's -- I think perhaps that's what I may have said.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm not going to finish. We are going

19 to have to take a little bit of time in the morning. I'm sorry, I tried.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Mr. Ackerman. I appreciate that. I

21 appreciate your efforts. We'll have to conclude now, today, and

22 unfortunately, Mr. Sivac, we need you again tomorrow morning, not for

23 long. You will be here for a few minutes, I suppose, unless there is a

24 long re-examination, which I don't anticipate, and after that, you can

25 travel back home.

Page 12819

1 I take it that tomorrow morning, we are -- so I suggest we start

2 at 9.00, as planned. I suggest also that we start with the witness so

3 that we finish with him as early as possible so that the Prosecution, or

4 together with the other officers of the Tribunal, can start making

5 arrangements for his flight, for his travel, and after that, we deal with

6 the organisational matters that we have. I take it we will not be sitting

7 in the afternoon unless there is a change in plan, because apparently

8 there is some problem with the next witness or I don't know exactly what

9 is happening but there is some problem.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Could I just assure Mr. Sivac, I know he's

11 concerned about his plans for Wednesday, that he will be leaving by at

12 least noon tomorrow, he'll be finished.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I anticipate Mr. Sivac that you won't be here

14 for more than 15 minutes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am here to do whatever.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you all, and we will reconvene

17 tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

20 the 14th day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.