Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15819

1 Monday, 19 May 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, good morning, Your Honours.

7 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

9 Mr. Brdjanin, do I take it that you can follow the proceedings in

10 a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Interpretation good morning, Your

12 Honour.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone was not on.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution?

15 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. It's Joanna Korner,

16 together with Ann Sutherland, assisted, as ever, by Denise Gustin, case

17 manager.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome back, and thank you. Appearances for the

19 Defence? One moment, Mr. Ackerman. I don't think we can proceed with

20 this stack of files obstructing the view. I know that this is not an easy

21 courtroom to work in but I obviously need -- it's not just Mr. Ackerman,

22 it's the whole Defence bench that I need to have in view, all the time.

23 Now I can't see Mr. Cunningham. That's better. Okay. So appearances for

24 the Defence?

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. In case you've

Page 15820

1 forgotten, my name is John Ackerman. I'm lead counsel for Mr. Brdjanin.

2 I'm here this morning with our new co-counsel David Cunningham and Barbara

3 Baruch and with Vesna Anic who is serving as our interpreter in the

4 absence of Ms. Jevtovic who is hospitalised and we hope will be with us

5 soon.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think even she is hospitalised?

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, this case is medically challenged, Your

8 Honour, if you haven't noticed.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Welcome back, Mr. Ackerman. Thank you and on

10 behalf of my two colleagues, Judges Janu and Taya, apart from welcoming

11 both of you back, we are happy that you are fully recovered and that we

12 look forward to resuming and proceeding with this case, hoping that we

13 won't have a repetition of what took place the last two months but most

14 important thing is that you're back in good shape, both of you.

15 So I understand there are a few things that you need to raise and

16 we also have several issues to clear up before we can proceed. In the

17 meantime, I also welcome you on behalf of the Trial Chamber,

18 Mr. Cunningham and look forward to working with you. The description that

19 we've had from Mr. Ackerman as well as from the office about your

20 qualifications is very encouraging so we really do indeed look forward.

21 Thank you.

22 So shall we start with you, Madam Korner?

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the only application that I have relates

24 to the witness and I wonder if we could go into private session for that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a while.

Page 15821

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Page 15823

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4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: We also sent to the Registry for filing yesterday

7 our response to the 92 bis motion regarding Bosanski Petrovac, and that

8 will also be filed this morning and delivered to Your Honours I suppose

9 sometime today.

10 I will ask permission to leave as soon as we finish these

11 preliminaries. I am not supposed to actually be here until the 1st of

12 June. My doctor told me not to do this, but I wanted to come this morning

13 just to deal with any of these preliminary matters that may need to be

14 taken care of, Your Honour.

15 The one thing I wanted to make a matter of record is this: For

16 the two months that we have not been here, I have been unable to have a

17 confidential communication with my client because the Registry denied my

18 requests for him to have confidential telephone contact with either

19 Ms. Jevtovic or Mr. Peric or Mr. Bojic, our two investigators, and our

20 legal assistants, and therefore there was no way for me to communicate

21 with him. I know the Trial Chamber was aware of that denial because they

22 sent a copy of the letter to you. So it has made it very -- extremely

23 difficult for us to make any progress regarding the preparation of the

24 case for the Defence and the direction and assistance to our investigators

25 in the field in Banja Luka. I don't understand that rule. That has never

Page 15824












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Page 15825

1 been the rule until I made this request. Throughout the entire Pre-Trial

2 of this case, Mr. Brdjanin was able to have those kind of communications

3 with Ms. Maglov, who was not co-counsel at that point, and Your Honour, I

4 just want it on the record that I complained bitterly about it, that I

5 think it is an interference with our ability to prepare our Defence in

6 this case, it's not justified in any way that I can see, especially

7 considering the history of this matter, that we were able to have those

8 communications throughout the Pre-Trial without having a co-counsel in

9 Banja Luka. The reason we were not able to do it of course was that our

10 co-counsel who was in Banja Luka was removed from the case and the

11 Registry wouldn't give us any kind of a substitute in order to have that

12 communication.

13 I don't know -- I can't tell you now what future affect that might

14 the have but we've lost a couple of months where at least one of those

15 months there probably could have been significant progress made regarding

16 the preparation of the Defence case. There may be another matter that

17 I'll want to bring to your attention later but that remains to be seen

18 regarding Ms. Jevtovic but I'll bring that to your attention only if it

19 becomes necessary. But I did want to put this issue on the record because

20 I just think that it's an unjustified interference with what we are trying

21 to accomplish in the Defence.

22 Beyond that, Your Honour, that's all I really have to say. I do

23 want to tell you that I'm sorry that my condition caused such a

24 significant delay in this case, especially with the additional delay but

25 it was beyond anyone's control and I made it back here as fast as I could

Page 15826

1 and I think we are able to move forward starting today without any future

2 difficulties.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. I can assure you that the

4 Trial Chamber appreciates that because it wasn't just a problem -- it

5 wasn't just your problem. It was also our problem. And we have, as you

6 can imagine, not just an interest but also a responsibility towards the

7 Tribunal in general and this case, which we are charged. With regard to

8 your comments, the Trial Chamber asks the Registrar to communicate to the

9 Registrar, Mr. Holthuis, a copy of the relative part of the transcript.

10 Yes. Mr. Ackerman, I do have some comments to make, some remarks

11 and some questions to put regarding several issues. You're free to go if

12 you want to go. It won't take much time, however. More or less I'm going

13 through what I think is pending so that we will have a picture of -- a

14 clear picture of where we stand before we proceed.

15 There is pending a Prosecution motion regarding to an expert --

16 one of the expert witnesses. Now, we have decided already the one

17 relating to Mr. Kieser, who I understand will be coming forward next week

18 to give evidence, if my information is correct.

19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour is absolutely right, and we intend to

20 call him properly in any event. I noticed that Your Honours said he had

21 to be here for cross-examination.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

23 MS. KORNER: When I say "properly," we are going to obviously just

24 highlight the parts of the report where perhaps some clarification would

25 assist.

Page 15827

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

2 MS. KORNER: And yes, I think he is here.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Next week. I'm informed next week.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: There is then the other person. We have taken note

6 of your response, Mr. Ackerman, and I have given instructions to my legal

7 officer to prepare a draft which then will need to be discussed with the

8 other two judges, and we should be in a position to hand down the decision

9 by not later than Wednesday. Because it's not going to be a difficult or

10 a lengthy decision. And I don't think it would be controversial.

11 We are not, however, going to grant a hearing because I think that

12 you have dealt with the issues thoroughly already in the -- in a written

13 form and we don't see that we need to spend time in any oral submissions.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's Mr. Brown you're talking about?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. The military expert. There is

16 another matter which will be decided this week which we have discussed

17 thoroughly and we have agreed upon, and that's with regard to the

18 Prosecution's fresh motion for the subpoena of Jonathan Randal. We will

19 be deciding it again probably Wednesday, latest Thursday, and so that's

20 another matter that has been cooking.

21 And we -- then there is the Prosecution motion for admission of

22 statements under Rule 92 bis related to the Bosanski Petrovac

23 municipality. This is pending. There is also pending the similar motion

24 related to Teslic and another one to Bosanska Krupa. Then there is

25 another Prosecution's motion under -- again under 92 bis related to

Page 15828

1 destruction of religious sites, Celinac, Sipovo, and again another one for

2 Celinac, and then there is a Prosecution 16th motion for protective

3 measures, and another one with regard to Bosanski Petrovac, again Rule 92

4 bis. These are all pending. My suggestion to the Defence in particular,

5 if there is anything still pending from your side with regard to any of

6 these Rule 92 bis motions, then please put us in a position where we can

7 decide because quite a few of them, and we need to decide them as quickly

8 as possible. I understand that some of them are -- you have responded to

9 some of them but not to all of them, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we have responded on Petrovac. With

11 regard to the religious sites, I sent an e-mail to the Prosecutor

12 yesterday. It's not possible for us to respond to that until we have more

13 information from the Prosecutor. I will be working on Teslic today. It's

14 fairly long so it will take me a while. I can tell you with regard to

15 Petrovac that we are not objecting to any of the Prosecutor's Rule 92

16 proposals; we are accepting them all.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But you are contesting the documents, no?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, we have objections to -- the vast majority of

19 the exhibits came from the AID office, which we consider a corrupted

20 source.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. So please take note of what

22 I've said and I appreciate that you are working on these. Please put us

23 in a position where we can decide them without much delay.

24 Yes, Ms. Korner?

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there is one further pending - it should

Page 15829

1 have been filed - protective measures motion, in relation to a witness

2 from Celinac -- I'm sorry it should have been filed on Friday but it will

3 be filed today.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not aware of it obviously.

5 MS. KORNER: I know you're not, but that's where BT90 came from.

6 Secondly, in respect to the documents from Petrovac I must say I thought

7 we had moved beyond AID's forgeries, but does Mr. Ackerman or Ms. Baruch

8 require us to call Mr. Inayat or is it, as it were, the standing

9 objection, because in that case I'll ask Your Honours to make a ruling to

10 admit them subject to the usual.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's the standing objection. It's in

12 writing, it's been filed. It almost all has to do with the source of the

13 documents. There are few of them that have to do with the lack of

14 signatures or stamps or things like that, that just don't even appear to

15 be authentic. It's the collection of documents that is mostly AID

16 documents. It's very different from most other municipalities in that it

17 almost 100 per cent reliance on AID.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you, then, Ms. Korner.

19 MS. KORNER: Well, then, we will be reaching Petrovac by

20 Wednesday. That's the first witness, and I will then make an application

21 to Your Honours before I call the witness in respect of the documents.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the last perhaps most important thing that

23 I wanted to mention is that I would like you, Ms. Korner, in the course of

24 this week, to work out as precisely as possible a schedule indicating when

25 the Prosecution expects to finish its case. The reason is that we need to

Page 15830












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Page 15831

1 discuss then whether it's the case of shortening or providing -- so that

2 we make sure that the case of the Prosecution is finalised by a certain

3 date. So if you can work on it and let us have a schedule, a tentative

4 schedule, we will then be in a position to see whether we are proceeding.

5 MS. KORNER: Well, if I understand Your Honour correctly, Your

6 Honour is saying that you are going to bring down a guillotine now.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We may have to.

8 MS. KORNER: Which is something I've raised on a number of

9 occasions before. But, Your Honour, we know that this is a matter that

10 has been concerning Your Honours and we have spent certainly the last week

11 since I've been back trying to work this out as best we can. As best we

12 can, we would like to finish the case before the summer break at the

13 beginning of August. And there is a prospect of that. But it is possible

14 that we will have a couple of leftover, maybe one extra witness. So we do

15 anticipate finishing at the latest at the beginning of September. I think

16 we start again on the 25th of August. But, Your Honour, the problem is

17 that had we known in advance, I think, for example, it might be that we

18 would have cut out this particular municipality but we had already started

19 it so we had to finish, and what is coming up now -- and may I make this

20 clear. It did occur to me that obviously as we reach the end of the case,

21 we are going to be hitting experts and major witnesses, the municipality

22 of Kotor Varos is particularly our major municipality. To a certain

23 extent it will depend very much on the ability of the Defence to be able

24 to probably take alternate witnesses, like we do, because we will be

25 running into expert after expert after expert, I'm afraid.

Page 15832

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, please do work out on this schedule.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we've done that. I mean, that is the

3 best we can do. We do hope to finish by the beginning of August, but we

4 have doubts because of the nature of the witnesses that we will be able to

5 complete it all. We have I think some four municipalities left, Petrovac,

6 Krupa -- no, five, actually, Teslic --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: You have Teslic --

8 MS. KORNER: -- Kotor Varos.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, the -- you will appreciate, Ms. Korner, that

10 in these last two months, particularly in this last month, with both

11 Mr. Ackerman and yourself in the position you were in, last thing we would

12 have thought of is to bring you together again and discuss how we could

13 cut down. So it has been on my mind. I have asked my secretary, legal --

14 not secretary, my legal officer to work out where we could cut down. I do

15 have some suggestions to make, but obviously, I mean, there is no point in

16 even starting discussing these unless you are both present here and you

17 were not both present here, so we had to postpone it.

18 There is still, I think, a solution that could be found, reliance

19 on Rule 92 bis also is one way of cutting down and I do appreciate that

20 you have moved in that direction too. But we need to make sure that, if

21 possible, we finish the Prosecution case entirely certainly before the

22 recess, the summer recess, and if possible, even before. So we'll --

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say in terms -- there is no

24 question, but even as Your Honour says, we put as many witnesses as we can

25 as Rule 92, Your Honours then have to rule on any Defence request for

Page 15833

1 cross-examination, of course.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously.

3 MS. KORNER: But, Your Honour, I can say without a shadow of a

4 doubt, there is no prospect of finishing even reducing it to its limited

5 extent even before the break.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 MS. KORNER: But if that's what Your Honour's order will be.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll see. You appreciate, Ms. Korner, that we are

9 not in a position to tell you: Drop this municipality or drop that

10 municipality. We will certainly not do that for obvious reasons. But

11 certain measures will have to be taken for sure, and this is why I'm

12 asking you to prepare this tentative schedule because on the basis of that

13 we can really figure it out as we go along. In the meantime,

14 Mr. Ackerman, you would be helping the Trial Chamber considerably if at

15 some point in time, I appreciate it may be a little bit too early for you

16 at this moment, but please do work out in your mind a possible time frame

17 that you will require for your case, just to give us an indication of what

18 to expect. There is a time limit beyond which this trial cannot go, and

19 we have proceeded with -- slowly because of certain problems that we've

20 had so we need to plan ahead much, much more than we would have otherwise

21 had to. All right? So you will come back to us when you can,

22 Mr. Ackerman.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we in fact have been trying to do some

24 work on that. I alluded to it in my earlier comments regarding the

25 inability to communicate with Mr. Brdjanin during this period of time,

Page 15834

1 that that kind of gave us a little bit of a set back but we are trying to

2 get that put together. The one kind of fear that I had as I sat here and

3 listened to what you were just talking about, I hope it is not Your

4 Honour's plan to make us use the summer recess as a period of time to

5 prepare our motion and brief regarding no case to answer because that

6 would take away what is treasured vacation time which we really need.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, but it is our plan definitely.

8 We cannot now in the situation in which we find ourselves -- you know, I

9 mean, look at the summer recess as if it is a time of rest.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that's extraordinarily unfair, Your Honour

11 and I object very strongly.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Unfortunately we had to stop for two months and I

13 want to know if any other court anywhere in the world which has to stop

14 for two months because of reasons like we had to. I mean, it just doesn't

15 happen, and if it does, then obviously you have to make up for it. We

16 will give due consideration to what will become necessary as we go along,

17 but please don't even think for a moment that the month of August is going

18 to be considered as if it's just a recess in which you can take a whole

19 month off. We just can't afford it at this present moment.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that's what it's for. That's what it is

21 designed for. It recognises that people who work hard need some leisure

22 time, need some vacation time and for you to make me work during that time

23 is just a horrible imposition. If this case ended any other time than

24 when that break was coming up, you wouldn't be able to do that and I just

25 think it's unfair, Your Honour.

Page 15835

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, we have to finish this case by not

2 later than the 31st of August next year. That's the maximum, because of

3 the ad litem Judges.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think there is any problem getting that

5 done, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You think so, but I also never thought that we would

7 have had to stop for two months.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: I didn't get cancer on purpose and I haven't been

9 on vacation.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that, Mr. Ackerman. I know that,

11 Mr. Ackerman. And you also know that we could have taken other steps

12 because as I said, had it happened to me, I would have been asked to

13 resign straight away. Because this Tribunal could not afford to have a

14 trial stop because one of the judges is sick for two months.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: It's happened before.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it hasn't happened before. There is no other

17 case that had to stop for two months because one of the judges was sick.

18 I appreciate your situation, and we did our best to preserve your presence

19 in this case.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, and I guess it's now -- well, I won't say

21 that, it wouldn't be wise.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's -- exactly. I think we better leave it at

23 that. We will take it up as we go along, but please don't expect us to

24 say August will be free for everyone and you can relax. We will be

25 working in August. I was working in August last year. But I had to come

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Page 15837

1 back because of certain work that urgent work that came up here and cut

2 short my holidays. So -- but any way, we will discuss it later,

3 Mr. Ackerman.

4 So that's the position, and we'll wait this tentative schedule

5 from you, Ms. Korner. Ms. Korner

6 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Please try to have available this tentative schedule

8 in the course of this week.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Time frame more or less.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think Your Honours were sent a sort of list

12 of anticipated witnesses, weren't you? Yes. Which shows roughly --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I have a list of anticipated witnesses until the

14 27th of June.

15 MS. KORNER: Oh, I see.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's all I have. I have it here in front of me

17 and it's order of witnesses for the month of May and June 2003. But

18 that's as far as I have.

19 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, yes, we'll see what we can

20 do. As I say --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: There is no Kotor Varos here.

22 MS. KORNER: No. We are starting Kotor Varos in July. But, Your

23 Honour, I have heard what Your Honours have said well in mind and we'll

24 just have to see what we can do. As I say, we would prefer also to

25 complete by the break.

Page 15838

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner and Mr. Ackerman, you have to understand

2 that we are now in a position where one needs to leave time for two very

3 important decisions that this Trial Chamber will have to hand down. One

4 is immediately after you finish the case for the Prosecution and then at

5 the end, for the final judgement, right? So we are talking of two periods

6 of time which -- one of which, the latter, in particular, in a case like

7 this, would -- one would expect to last for at least three months, easily,

8 easily. There is the case, the Defence case, that I don't know how long

9 it's going to take but we need to take that into consideration and give

10 maximum allowance for that. And we need to finish by not later than

11 August of next year. So if there is a major calamity like we have had, we

12 have a problem.

13 So I have worked it out in my mind with the assistance of my

14 staff, there is an allowance, a margin, of a couple of months. If we have

15 a calamity, we have a problem. And this is why we will have to take

16 certain steps because I want to make sure that there is a wider margin,

17 enough, not to put any pressure on anyone and at the same time to release

18 the pre-occupation that we have that we -- that the case may come to a

19 halt. I mean, please do appreciate that. We have a responsibility. We

20 will try to accommodate each one of you as much as we could, but at the

21 same time we can't work miracles and we can't allow the case to come to a

22 halt. So this is the position.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I make one more suggestion? And

24 that's this: We are supposed to be boxing and coxing with the case of

25 Krajisnik. As Your Honour and I think everybody knows that's not started

Page 15839

1 and may not start for some weeks at the present rate.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: At least.

3 MS. KORNER: I wonder if we could make full use then of the Court

4 that's available by perhaps sitting a little longer, by sitting a day as

5 opposed to the half days like this? I think that would assist.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I certainly have nothing against it and I would be

7 all for it. I don't want to put undue pressure on --

8 MS. KORNER: I think it depends very much when Mr. Ackerman's new

9 co-counsel feels that he'll be in a position to take full part in the

10 case. But, Your Honour, that's a suggestion that I have because I think

11 that would really speed matters up because we could call, with luck, two

12 witnesses a day.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: If you agree on that now, I can give instructions

14 straight away to the Registrar to work out a different schedule, court

15 schedule, for the next month and a half because I don't anticipate

16 Krajisnik starting before a month and a half, and we could do that. But I

17 need the consent of both of you at this point in time before I proceed.

18 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I understand that, and so I'm

19 merely raising that suggestion and obviously, it would have to be from

20 next week.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The reason I say it, Ms. Korner, is this: That

22 Mr. Ackerman has no problem between now and the end of May, because there

23 is Mrs. Baruch and Mr. Cunningham here who can take over. But starting on

24 the 1st of June, if everything goes as expected, Mr. Ackerman will be back

25 in the courtroom and -- I don't want to -- I don't know what the situation

Page 15840

1 is going to be. I mean, maybe okay for him to be here whole morning or a

2 whole afternoon but quite an inconvenience to be here from 9.00 in the

3 morning until --

4 MS. KORNER: I was thinking something like Milosevic hours, Your

5 Honour, which is 9.30 or whatever until 3, but that would certainly give

6 us extra time.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, he's heard what has been said, he will think

8 about it, and when he's in a position to let us know, then we'll decide

9 accordingly.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it's impossible for me to know exactly

11 how I'm going to feel two weeks from now. I seem to be getting a little

12 bit stronger every day, but I'm good for about four or five hours a day

13 now.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I have gone through this before with

15 relatives of mine. The moment you overdo it, you'll pay for it, okay? So

16 this is why I'm saying August, my idea is to work in August, work not here

17 in the courtroom but my idea is to work in August. But obviously we will

18 have to reconsider the position as it obtains -- as it will obtain at the

19 time and take the appropriate decision, but here and now it's not my

20 intention to waste August as if it's just an entire month or three weeks

21 off. That's my suggestion at the present moment. We will talk about it.

22 August is still pretty much far away, while the 1st of June is not.


24 JUDGE AGIUS: And you will feel certainly better at the end of

25 July than you would feel in the beginning of June. So at this point in

Page 15841

1 time, I don't expect you to give me an answer. We will talk about it. I

2 don't know, perhaps we could --

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have no objection starting --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Lengthen -- yeah --

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no objection starting the month of June with

6 some extended hours if you want to try that, with the understanding that I

7 might stand up and say, "Judge, I can't go any further today." I mean,

8 that could happen but I think we might as well try to set up the schedule

9 so we can do it if we can do it. It makes sense to me. I feel a need

10 because of -- I assume, Your Honour, that when you're saying we have to

11 finish by August of next year, what you're -- what you mean is that we

12 have to have final judgement by August of next year.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course, the term of offers of the two ad litem

14 Judges expires definitely without the possibility of an extension the end

15 of August of next year.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, all of us need to cooperate to do our best to

17 make that work, Your Honour, and I think we probably can.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise what it means is that the trial starts

19 again for whatever that involves, as far as your client is concerned.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I do need to just point out for the record that the

21 process of preparing the Defence case has been repeatedly interfered

22 with. First of all, my first co-counsel was suspended, who was the person

23 who knew the most about this case, and we would be way along the road for

24 preparation if she had been able to stay on the case. Then my second

25 co-counsel whose job -- whose assignment was to get the Defence case

Page 15842












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Page 15843

1 prepared and that's what he was working on. He was removed. The third

2 person who has knowledge about this matter and who now has taken over

3 responsibility for doing that work and getting that case prepared is

4 Ms. Jevtovic who the Registry has now told me will be removed as of June

5 4.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But, Mr. Ackerman, let's cut this short. You're

7 allergic to bananas and you eat a banana and you get a rash, it's only

8 your fault. You shouldn't have eaten the banana. Don't let me start on

9 commenting and remarking on your choice of co-counsel as we have been

10 going along on this case. So I have my strong reservations on the choice

11 of the co-counsel in each case. And the least said about this is better.

12 Maybe you don't agree with what I am saying, but the end result is

13 measures had to be taken as we went along, precisely because there was

14 something wrong each time with the choice of the co-counsel.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: But they are now saying they are going to remove

16 Ms. Jevtovic and there is nothing wrong with her.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But, Mr. Ackerman, having someone come here one day

18 and the next day she decides that she doesn't want even to turn up or have

19 the decency, you have -- you wouldn't be able to do that. You would never

20 dream of doing that because you know that there is a rule of ethics that

21 doesn't allow you to do that. Even if you are sacked, even if a

22 co-counsel is sacked, the Registrar will impose on that co-counsel a time

23 limit during which he has or she has to stay here.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, let me make it very clear what happened.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the most offensive behaviour imaginable for

Page 15844

1 someone to decide here and now to abandon the client, abandon you, abandon

2 everyone simply because there is a misunderstanding or there is lack of

3 agreement or dissatisfaction with the amount that she is being paid.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Judge, you misunderstand.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't care, Mr. Ackerman. But I would not accept,

6 tolerate, anyone to behave the way she did behave.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: I do. You do misunderstand and I care that you do

8 understand properly. What they did -- she had an agreement with regard to

9 compensation. She came here under that agreement. All of a sudden, the

10 Registry announced they were cutting her remuneration in half. She had a

11 contract, my view is, to perform services for a certain amount.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, there are ways and means and there are

13 ethical rules that need to be observed by everyone. I know that you

14 observe scrupulously also because you are the president of the lawyer's

15 association here, the Defence association, but that's not the way to go

16 about it. And anyone who can abandon everyone else, the client, the lead

17 counsel, the co-counsel, and fail to turn up, leaving everyone in the

18 lurch, unable to start the sitting because we have to find a replacement,

19 temporary replacement even to be able to provide interpretation and a

20 direct link between you and your client, that's unheard of. I mean, I

21 would never tolerate it.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there was a very long period of time

23 when I negotiated with the Registry on her behalf, argued with the

24 Registry on her behalf, I wrote a letter to Your Honours explaining what

25 was going on, asking you to assist.

Page 15845

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And we assisted you, but the result was that the

2 moment she decided she was important to enough to walk out on us, she did.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: And I was then finally able to convince her that

4 that was a mistake and that she should remain, and she decided to remain

5 under the conditions that the Registry was now imposing upon her and after

6 then she had decided to remain under the conditions the Registry wanted

7 her to remain under, they then sent me a letter saying they are going to

8 sack her in any event. You know, regardless, it just puts a great big

9 hole in our ability to do this case.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But, Mr. Ackerman, you as lead counsel, you have a

11 responsibility. I wouldn't like to have someone -- if I were lead counsel

12 instead of you, I wouldn't like to live with the uncertainty that such an

13 assistant provides, basing on the past experience. Anyone who walks out

14 on me like that, without prior notice, you looked very surprised when you

15 walked in the courtroom that day, telling us what happened, she's just

16 left, she decided to abandon the case. You can't accept that.

17 Yes. Judge Taya is telling me to proceed. Let's proceed.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Are you ready to bring the witness?


20 MR. ACKERMAN: Can I be excused then?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly, Mr. Ackerman. And not even an

22 apology. She came back into the courtroom

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So how are we going to proceed now with the facial

25 distortion and --

Page 15846

1 THE REGISTRAR: The same technical requirement has been met, I

2 think, and there are no people allowed to sit in the public gallery.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: But what about transmission?

4 MS. KORNER: I think we need to go into private session when he

5 comes in, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session. One moment then.

7 THE REGISTRAR: We are not going to show the face.

8 MS. KORNER: All right.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the important thing, that the --

10 [Private session]

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

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Page 15847












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Page 15852

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We are in open session now.


14 Q. In a moment, sir, you're going to be handed a map and I want to

15 ask you some questions. You can put that on the ELMO, please.

16 Now, sir, we can see marked on that map the village of Lisnja.

17 You've told us there were about three and a half thousand people living

18 there. Of what nationality?

19 A. Muslims, Bosniaks.

20 Q. The villages that surround it, were they also Bosniak villages or

21 were they Serb?

22 A. The villages around Lisnja were all Serbian villages, and then

23 further on, there were Galjipoljci and Vrbovci and then there were some

24 Bosniaks living in Prnjavor as well.

25 Q. Was the village of Lisnja, did that have a commune or was that

Page 15853

1 part of a commune?

2 A. Lisnja was or constituted a local commune.

3 Q. It's not marked on the map but was there a village call Milosavci?

4 A. Yes. And that was part of the local commune of Lisnja.

5 Q. And what was the nationality of the persons who lived in that

6 village of Milosavci?

7 A. Serbs.

8 Q. Was there in Lisnja a mosque?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And within the town or within the village of Lisnja, were there

11 any military barracks or structures or anything like that?

12 A. None.

13 Q. As far as you knew, was there any military importance to the

14 village of Lisnja?

15 A. I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. Did Lisnja form part of a -- or did it have a TO unit?

17 A. Yes. That was in 1995. A TO unit was established within the TO

18 of Prnjavor.

19 Q. I'm sorry, it's been translated as in 1995. Do you mean 1995?

20 A. No. Not then. Lisnja was empty in 1995.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note. I believe that the witness

22 in fact said 1991, but if you want you can check with him.

23 MS. KORNER: The interpreter --

24 Q. Did you say 1991, there was a TO unit established?

25 A. Around that time. I don't know the exact date. I am just saying

Page 15854












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Page 15855

1 that that was the approximate time it was established, before the war.

2 Q. Were you a member of that TO unit?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And of what nationality was the commander of the TO unit?

5 A. He was a Serb.

6 Q. All right. Was there a police station in Lisnja?

7 A. No. There wasn't one. However, a patrol was established at

8 around that time. Perhaps a bit after the TO unit was established.

9 Q. And where did the patrol come from?

10 A. Some were from Lisnja, some from Milosavci, and I think that an

11 active policeman used to come from Prnjavor.

12 Q. And do you know who was in charge of that police patrol?

13 A. I think that that was the policeman from Prnjavor who used to

14 come. He was in charge of that unit.

15 Q. Now, I want to move to the events of 1991 and 1992.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I go into private session for just a

17 short part of this.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session, please.

19 [Private session]

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 15856

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.


24 Q. Now, during this period from the time of the war in Croatia up

25 until the events of April/May of 1992, were you aware of people being

Page 15857

1 dismissed from their employment?

2 A. Yes, I was. It was in the media. I used to come across people

3 who had been fired.

4 Q. The people who were being fired, of what nationality were they?

5 A. Mostly Bosniaks and Croats.

6 Q. What reason was given for them losing their jobs, usually?

7 A. Based on what I knew, the major reason was that they would be

8 mobilised or issued call-up papers to go to war in Croatia. They would

9 fail to respond and be fired as a result.

10 Q. What about women? Were they being fired as well, Bosniak women?

11 A. Well, yes. Perhaps a bit later.

12 Q. If the -- if people, Bosniaks, were fired, did that affect their

13 accommodation in some cases?

14 A. Well, perhaps not right away, but sometime later they would lose

15 their accommodation, some people would, or at least most of them lost

16 their housing.

17 Q. And those who had lost their housing, where would they go?

18 A. Well, they managed, they would stay with friends, relatives.

19 Q. Did there come a stage, and if you can remember roughly when that

20 started, when people, Bosniaks, and Croats, were forcibly evicted from

21 their accommodation?

22 A. I only heard about that. I heard that they had been evicted.

23 Q. From those whom you spoke to, how had those evictions taken

24 place? What had actually happened?

25 A. Usually uniformed people would come, mostly those who had fought

Page 15858

1 in war in Croatia. I don't know whether they did it arbitrarily or not, I

2 really don't know.

3 Q. Are you aware whether any complaint was made to the authorities

4 about these evictions?

5 A. Most probably yes. They complained and they were told that things

6 would be taken care of and that it would be investigated, and as to who

7 was responsible and so on.

8 Q. As far as you are aware, was any action taken by the authorities

9 to reinstate, put back into their accommodation, the people who had been

10 evicted?

11 A. I don't know about that. There were some attempts. There were

12 even conflicts breaking out between the police and these troops. I don't

13 know what to call them.

14 Q. All right. Now, I want to next move to politicians. Did you have

15 a television?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. And did you see politicians appearing on television?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you ever see Radoslav Brdjanin on television?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. Did you know what position he held at the time that you saw him?

22 A. I truly don't know, but he was in the top echelons in Banja Luka,

23 and since we were a bit away, I didn't know exactly what office he held.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ask him whether he would be in a position to

25 recognise Mr. Brdjanin to start with and whether he sees him in this

Page 15859

1 courtroom, if he can recognise him in this courtroom.

2 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think I'll wait to see if there

3 is an objection to that. I don't think we have done that so far.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Since you are addressing him precisely as to -- on

5 the subject and he's telling you that he saw Radoslav Brdjanin, I want to

6 know which Radoslav Brdjanin he saw on TV, whether he can recognise him

7 here in the courtroom.


9 Q. Would you be able to recognise Mr. Brdjanin now, sir?

10 A. Maybe I would, if I looked around, perhaps. I think that the

11 gentleman is sitting all the way in the back.

12 MS. KORNER: I think perhaps for the purposes of the note, we

13 better have a more accurate description.

14 Q. Is there anybody sitting next to him that you can see, sir?

15 A. I can't see, but there is a policeman there, I think it's a

16 policeman.

17 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, unless there is an objection,

18 clearly he's identified the accused.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.


21 Q. Now, I know this is some years ago, sir, now, but can you remember

22 what he was saying, what his speeches were like that you saw?

23 A. I can't remember. All I can say was that he delivered those

24 speeches in an energetic way but I can't remember the details.

25 Q. I'm not asking for the details, sir, but generally speaking, can

Page 15860












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13 English transcripts.













Page 15861

1 you remember what he was saying about the non-Serbs?

2 A. Well, he said that non-Serbs need to be moved out, this needs to

3 be done, that needs to be done, just like what other politicians used to

4 say.

5 Q. And can you remember, and if you can't, sir, say straight away,

6 roughly -- from roughly what period you first saw him on television?

7 A. I can't remember that.

8 Q. All right.

9 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm going to move now to the actual

10 events, so perhaps -- I know it's a little early but we can have the break

11 now and I can move to the events.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We can have the break now. Do you need

13 time -- 25 minutes will be enough? So 25 minutes.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I should say the Defence were aware of

15 what the witness was going to say about Mr. Brdjanin. I informed them of

16 that.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope so. So we'll have a break of 25 minutes.

18 Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, bringing in the witness, we go into -- make

22 sure that all precautions are taken, Madam Registrar.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I, just before we bring back the

24 witness, mention this? Your Honours will now see Mr. Nicholls is here

25 instead of Ms. Sutherland, and he's calling the next witness who is here

Page 15862

1 and available. I estimate to be about another hour in chief. Your

2 Honour, the real question is whether we want to get him brought here with

3 the possibility of starting today. Can I say straight away that the

4 witness from Petrovac does not arrive until this evening, so he can't

5 testify until Wednesday. Mr. Nicholls's witness will certainly finish in

6 one day, just like this one. So I'm wondering whether it's worth bringing

7 him here.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It all depends on how long the cross-examination

9 will last. I hate to ask actually because -- I hate to ask you how long

10 you expect your cross-examination to last because the examination-if-chief

11 hasn't finished as yet, so you never know what might come out. Could we

12 have an estimate, Ms. Baruch, please?

13 MS. BARUCH: Another difficulty.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MS. BARUCH: Besides not knowing how long the direct examination

16 will be, Your Honour, we spent a great deal of this morning on other

17 matters, which I know we will not do in the afternoon or I don't believe

18 we do. I did an extensive preparation on this particular witness. I can

19 tell you that I have 19 pages of questions but they are double-spaced,

20 large words, large printing, and I've never had the experience of waiting

21 for interpreters and then hearing the witness. I'll be better prepared to

22 answer such a question the next witness.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would suggest you keep the other witness where

24 he is and we'll bring him over tomorrow.

25 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you very much, Your Honour.

Page 15863

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mrs. Baruch. So let's go ahead. Let's

2 proceed.


4 Q. Sir, I want to now move to the events in April/May of 1992. Did

5 there come a time when there was a demand for the surrender of weapons in

6 your village?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How did you become aware of that demand?

9 A. First the request was made to surrender hunting rifles through the

10 delegates. There was a notification for the hunting rifles to be

11 surrendered.

12 Q. Okay. First of all, who was it who was saying that hunting rifles

13 had to be surrendered?

14 A. I don't know their names, but in any case, the whole village was

15 aware of that demand.

16 Q. I understand that, sorry, I don't want the names but which

17 authorities were saying you, the villagers, had to surrender your hunting

18 rifles?

19 A. An order came from the municipality but I don't know which body

20 was in charge of that.

21 Q. All right. And you heard about it from, you said, the delegates.

22 Were those delegates from your village?

23 A. Yes, they were.

24 Q. Now, the surrender of hunting rifles, were those licensed rifles?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15864

1 Q. Did you yourself own a hunting rifle?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. Now, after you were all informed of this demand, was there a

4 meeting?

5 A. No. There were no meetings. On the day when the weapons were to

6 be surrendered, a lot of people gathered, we were all there.

7 Q. And where did you gather?

8 A. In front of the cultural centre, the culture hall.

9 Q. Now, did -- as far as you were aware, did most of the men in the

10 village go to the cultural centre?

11 A. Well, there were men, women, children. It was a spontaneous

12 thing. There was no danger in all that, no harm.

13 Q. What was decided about the surrender of the weapons? Was the

14 agreement to surrender?

15 A. Some people surrendered their weapons immediately. There was a

16 team from Prnjavor who received the weapons and some on the other hand did

17 not want to surrender their weapons. So those who had surrendered their

18 weapons influenced the others, told them, surrender your weapons, let's

19 avoid any problems, and they found a lorry and the remainder of the

20 weapons were then subsequently taken to Prnjavor.

21 Q. The people who didn't want to surrender their weapons, what was

22 the reason behind that?

23 A. I wouldn't know. I don't know why they didn't, how come they did

24 not.

25 Q. Those of you who did surrender -- not you personally but those who

Page 15865

1 did surrender their weapons, why did they do that?

2 A. Most probably to avoid problems. They understood that as an

3 order.

4 Q. Apart from hunting rifles, were you aware that anyone in Lisnja

5 had other weapons?

6 A. There were all sorts of things.

7 Q. Such as?

8 A. But I can't -- there were rifles, mostly light arms, pistols,

9 rifles.

10 Q. Were they surrendered?

11 A. Not on that day. A request had not been made to surrender that

12 kind of weapons.

13 Q. And those sort of weapons, were they personal weapons or were they

14 part of the TO weaponry?

15 A. Most of it belonged to the Territorial Defence but there were some

16 personal weapons as well.

17 Q. All right. Now, at any stage, did your -- did the village of

18 Lisnja suggest to the authorities that they were not -- that they were

19 going to resist any attempt to disarm?

20 A. No. The relationships were good between the local commune and the

21 authorities in Prnjavor. The relationships were okay, I would say.

22 Q. Had there been any attempt by the village of Lisnja to set up

23 barricades to stop people coming into the village?

24 A. According to my knowledge, no.

25 Q. All right. So you say some of the weapons were surrendered to the

Page 15866

1 people who came from Prnjavor and others were later collected in a truck

2 and taken to Prnjavor; is that right?

3 A. Yes, that is right.

4 Q. Once these weapons had been taken, did anybody arrive in your

5 village?

6 A. Maybe five or ten minutes - I can't give you the exact time - some

7 soldiers came in a lorry. They drove through the entire village, they

8 started cursing us, they started telling us: Why did you surrender those

9 weapons? We are here to kill you because you surrendered your weapons.

10 There was no violence. They just drove through the village, they were

11 shooting in the air, and they were cursing us, they used derogatory terms

12 to address us.

13 Q. These soldiers, were you able to identify what kind of soldiers

14 they were?

15 A. They introduced themselves as White Eagles. They had patches on

16 one side, and they had gloves with no fingers, they had balaclavas or

17 masks on their faces. I don't know who they were.

18 Q. Did they have, you say, patches on one side. Was there anything

19 on the patches, any insignia?

20 A. As far as I could see, there were patches or insignia in the shape

21 of an eagle or something like that.

22 Q. Now, you say that they drove through the village, they were

23 firing, and they wanted to know why you'd surrendered your weapons, as

24 they wanted to -- as they were here to kill you. Did anything happen

25 apart from that? Did they stop at all?

Page 15867

1 A. No. They did not. As far as I could see, and according to the

2 stories that I heard, they didn't stop. They just drove straight through

3 the village.

4 Q. But you yourself saw them, did you?

5 A. Yes, I did. I did see them in that lorry.

6 Q. And how did all this display make you and your co-villagers feel?

7 A. We were all upset and it was a very unpleasant sight.

8 Q. Now, after that, did there come a time when some police officers

9 came looking for you?

10 A. It was after some time. I don't know when this happened. I

11 believe it was on the 27 or on the 28th of May, a police patrol came,

12 consisting of four or five men. They came looking for me and some other

13 people.

14 Q. And did you see those police officers?

15 A. I was in my neighbour's courtyard and I saw them entering my front

16 yard, and I heard them inquiring about me, and then I just ran away. I

17 fled.

18 Q. And why did you run away?

19 A. I was afraid. We would all run away before a foot soldier, before

20 any car. You -- it was -- you were better off hiding because you never

21 knew who might that be.

22 Q. But what was it that made you afraid? What did you think might

23 happen?

24 A. People were being taken away. This person was taken from here,

25 that person was taken from there. It was not just the authorities that

Page 15868

1 came. There were other people, people who would put on uniforms, just,

2 you know, ordinary people putting on uniforms. You really didn't know who

3 they were and that's why we were all afraid.

4 Q. And these police officers and the people who would suddenly put on

5 uniforms, what nationality were they?

6 A. There was no way of knowing. They would come to the village, they

7 would not introduce themselves, they wore uniforms, they could be anybody.

8 Q. All right. Let's deal with the police officers who came to your

9 house that day. Before you ran away, were you able to recognise any of

10 them?

11 A. I believe that the leader of that patrol was Dragan Mehtic who

12 talked to my wife, asked where I was, asked her to come look for me, and

13 when he didn't find me, he left a message with her that I should report

14 to -- for an interview, for an interrogation.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. You say, I believe it was Dragan Mehtic

16 because you saw him or because you were told so?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had never seen him in a uniform

18 before but I knew him and I saw a tall guy and I thought I recognised him,

19 and also they told me that I should report to him, to Dragan, when I went

20 to Prnjavor.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


23 Q. Now, was any reason given to your wife as to why you should report

24 to Prnjavor for an interview?

25 A. No. They just told me I should go for an interview, and that was

Page 15869

1 all.

2 MS. KORNER: Can I just go into private session, Your Honour, for

3 the next couple of questions?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go to private session for a while,

5 please.

6 [Private session]

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

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21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 15870

1 (Redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.


5 Q. Now, you'd been ordered to report to the police station in

6 Prnjavor, so did you go there?

7 A. Yes. I did, together with somebody else they wanted to report for

8 an interview. Since my children had left already, we decided that he

9 wouldn't go, that he would stay, he was an active member of the SDA. I

10 went there, it was Saturday, I reported to the duty operations officer, he

11 didn't have a clue. He said: Well, who asked you to come? And I said:

12 Well, I'm to report to Dragan, and then Dragan came in civilian clothes

13 and Dragan told me: Go home, come back on Monday, we will continue.

14 Q. Did you go back on Monday?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Can you remember the date?

17 A. It was, I believe, the 1st of June or thereabouts.

18 Q. When you went back to the police station, on that occasion, were

19 you questioned?

20 A. They put me in a room, I waited there, then I talked to one

21 person, to another person, they asked me whether I was a member, I said

22 yes, no, you're lying, you're not lying, who has weapons, who hasn't? So

23 there was no ill treatment. It was just a simple conversation.

24 Q. Now, whilst you were at the police station on that Monday, the 1st

25 of June, did you notice anything happening?

Page 15871

1 A. Sometime around -- I don't know how late it was, I noticed some

2 sort of preparations going on at the police station, and then all of a

3 sudden everything quieted down for a couple of hours I was on my own,

4 nobody came to me, nobody asked me anything, nobody talked to me.

5 Q. Now, were you kept at the police station?

6 A. I was there all the time in that one room, and then in the late

7 afternoon, they came and brought me downstairs to the ground floor, and

8 there I saw two other men from my village.

9 Q. And can you just give us their names?

10 A. Senijad Mujanic was there and Gusic. The second person was

11 just sort of, just passing through. He was released pretty quickly. I

12 gave him the key to my car because I'd come by car and I asked him to take

13 my car home and he did that.

14 Q. Pause for a moment. Could you just tell us the name of the second

15 man again who you gave your car keys to?

16 A. Zinaid Gusic.

17 Q. All right. So were you -- did you and Mr. Mujanic remain in the

18 police station?

19 A. Yes, we did. But we could not talk to each other.

20 Q. And were you kept at the police station overnight?

21 A. I can't give you the exact times, because I also heard at the time

22 that something was going on in Lisnja regarding the surrender of weapons.

23 On Monday morning, nobody knew anything about any surrender of weapons.

24 At least I didn't know. Maybe others did. It was an order that came out

25 of the blue sky, and then there was something they called an armed

Page 15872

1 rebellion and villagers did not fire any arms. I don't know what was

2 going on.

3 Q. All right. I'll come on to that in a moment. But can we just

4 deal with your position? Were you kept at the police station overnight or

5 were you moved?

6 A. We were moved. I was put in one part of the building and Mujanic

7 was put in another part of the building, but I believe it was on the

8 subsequent day, I believe that we spent the night on the ground floor but

9 I can't say that for a fact. I can't remember exactly.

10 Q. All right. Now, were there other people that you knew being kept

11 at the police station, whom you saw?

12 A. I don't understand. What people do you have in mind when you ask

13 me that?

14 Q. Did there come a time when you saw or you were taken out past

15 another cell in that building?

16 A. Yes. Yes. While I was staying in that room or in that cell, I

17 didn't know what the time was or anything, but next to that cell, there

18 was a kindergarten and I could hear children playing so I assumed it was

19 still daylight. At one point the door opened and the policeman who opened

20 the door asked me: What are you doing here? Why are you here? And I

21 said: I don't know. Dragan had been interrogating me and that's where we

22 left it off. And then a Serbian soldier entered the cell. He was from

23 the neighbouring village. And again asked me why am I hear? And I asked

24 him: Why are you here? And he says: I killed my brother. He was in the

25 neighbouring cell. And then after half an hour, again the door opened and

Page 15873

1 they took me to have a drink of water, they gave me a sandwich. As I was

2 walking through that passage to the public security station to drink

3 water, I saw a cell with the door open and I saw a number of people from

4 my village.

5 Q. All right. Now, the people that you saw from your village, were

6 you able to talk to them?

7 A. No, I wasn't.

8 Q. Now, were you eventually taken to the cultural centre in Prnjavor?

9 A. Yes. When I had had a sandwich and a drink of water, I returned

10 to the cell, I didn't stay there long, a policeman came, opened the door,

11 and told me: We are taking you to the cultural centre.

12 Q. All right. And when you were taken to the cultural centre, were

13 there other people already there?

14 A. Yes. The centre was packed. There were people from Lisnja, from

15 my village, there.

16 Q. Did you hear from them what had happened in Lisnja that day?

17 A. Yes. First I came across the people who were from Puraci, that's

18 a hamlet next to Lisnja and they told me what had happened, that there had

19 been shelling, that there were dead people lying around. And I asked

20 where my neighbours were, and then they told me that they were on the far

21 end of the cultural sent are by the stage. That's where I found them. We

22 talked, and they told me that the houses had been set fire to and things

23 like that.

24 Q. Were all the people that you saw in the cultural centre men?

25 A. Yes, they were all men.

Page 15874

1 Q. Were they all adult men or were there young boys there?

2 A. There were a few young boys.

3 Q. Now, were you kept at the Dom Kultura, the culture centre, for

4 some days?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many people were there roughly?

7 A. I don't know exactly, 200, 300, maybe more. I can't give you the

8 exact number.

9 Q. Were there beds or any sleeping arrangements for you?

10 A. There was nothing there, just the floor. We spent a day or two

11 days there. I don't know. And then on one occasion, Veljko Milankovic

12 came. I don't know what his rank was, but in any case, he had his own

13 paramilitary unit, and he asked the policemen: Why do you keep these

14 people like that? Why don't you give them food, water, beds? And the

15 policemen obeyed him immediately we were given water, sandwiches, and then

16 he addressed all of us and he said, "There won't be any problems. I'll

17 deal with this. I'll see what this is all about." He spoke along these

18 lines.

19 Q. All right. Well, I want to come back to him in a moment but

20 before he arrived, had you been given any food or water?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And were there any guards?

23 A. Yes, there were police officers there. The regular policemen.

24 Q. Now, you say Milankovic arrived. Had you ever met Milankovic

25 before this?

Page 15875

1 A. I saw him. I knew him. I didn't know him personally, but I knew

2 who he was.

3 Q. And who was he, as far as you were concerned?

4 A. Before the war, he was, how shall I put it, he was a criminal, he

5 did all sorts of dodgy things. He had been convicted felon. He did all

6 sorts of things. He had been tried and sentenced for various crimes.

7 Q. You say he had his own paramilitary unit. Do you know what that

8 unit was called?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner.

10 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.

11 Q. You say he had a paramilitary unit. Do you know what that unit

12 was called?

13 A. We all know that. They were Wolves from Vucjak. That's what they

14 were called. Because he was a native of Vucjak. He was born in the

15 vicinity and that's why his paramilitary units was called like that.

16 Q. When he arrived at the cultural centre, was he in uniform?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What was he -- well, he was wearing civilian clothes, was he?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Now, you were shown by the investigator a copy of a

21 photograph and I'd like you to have a look.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we have obtained the original because

23 the copies that I think we all have are terribly bad. It's also a

24 photocopy but we'll get a better one done so we will hand them out later

25 rather than making this an exhibit.

Page 15876

1 Q. Could you just look at that photograph?

2 MS. KORNER: If you put it on the --

3 Q. Is that the man that you knew as Milankovic?

4 A. I believe so.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that a copy be made an

6 exhibit. It will be P1781 but we'll give a better copy to the Registry.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.


9 Q. Now, did you ever notice the insignia that -- when you'd seen

10 Milankovic before was on his uniform?

11 A. It was a wolf's head. I don't know on which arm.

12 Q. All right. Now again you were shown a photograph of such insignia

13 by the investigator. Could you have a look at that, please. Is that the

14 insignia that was on the uniforms of those called the wolves?

15 A. Yes. This is a head. That was something like that but there was

16 also an inscription, Wolves from Vucjak. I can't see whether this is

17 written here or not. The head is similar but I don't know whether the

18 mouth was actually open or not. I can't remember.

19 Q. All right.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that then be made - again we will

21 get a better copy for the Registry - P1782? Yes, thank you.

22 Q. Now, you told us that he arrived and he told the police officers

23 or he told you, I think, that you'd get food and water; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did he actually, in your presence, tell police officers that you

Page 15877

1 were to be provided with food and water?

2 A. Yes. He did, in our presence, he said it outloud, all of us were

3 present when he said that.

4 Q. Were you surprised when he said that?

5 A. Yes. We were truly surprised.

6 Q. When you saw him arrive, what did you think was going to happen?

7 A. We thought the worst would happen. However, things took a

8 different turn, and it was fine.

9 Q. Now, after he had been there, you told us that the police did in

10 fact give you food and water.

11 A. They did give us food and sandwiches. They treated us well.

12 Things were great right then.

13 Q. Now, you've told us that you found your neighbours and they told

14 you what had happened to Lisnja. Did you discover what had happened to

15 your family? Your wife and children?

16 A. Yes. They were in Prnjavor. They were safe with family and

17 relatives, and the entire village of Lisnja spent several days in

18 Prnjavor, in fact.

19 Q. When you say "the entire," what, every male -- man, woman and

20 child left Lisnja?

21 A. Well, perhaps some had remained, 5 to 10 per cent; however, I

22 wasn't there so I can't say. Most were outside of the village, in

23 Prnjavor, with family and so on. They had no trouble finding

24 accommodation with them.

25 Q. All right. And did you see your family while you were still at

Page 15878

1 the cultural centre?

2 A. Yes. After Milankovic's visit, some other people whom I don't

3 know came as well. They decided to allow us five, ten minutes, or three

4 minutes for talking to our families in the presence of the police. They

5 allowed us to have that.

6 Q. Now, after that, were you taken from the Dom Kultura -- from the

7 cultural centre to another place?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And where was that?

10 A. They took us to the former shoe factory, Sloga. There was a plant

11 there, and they put us in there.

12 Q. Was that all the persons who had been kept, detained, in the

13 cultural centre?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, I think you were asked by the investigator to draw a sketch

16 of the Sloga factory, the inside. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. Can you be shown that, please? Now, can you just tell

19 us what you were indicating in that sketch? If you can do it on the -- on

20 there, yes.

21 A. The entrance gate was here and you can't see the fence on the

22 sketch but it was there. Then this is the yard, the entrance, and then

23 one entered the first room. That was the first room where all of us were

24 initially. And then the door was here, and the entrance to the second

25 room. This door was closed off. And somewhere here there was another

Page 15879

1 building, and there were toilets there and water facilities. One would

2 leave the room, go through the yard to get to these facilities.

3 Q. So there were two rooms, were there, in which you and the other

4 people were detained?

5 A. No. Initially all of us were in this one room, because this door

6 was closed off and the second room was empty. So for the first few days,

7 all of us were in this first room.

8 Q. I see.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we have an indication of the size of this first

10 room where they were altogether initially, please? Roughly in square

11 metres? Was it -- let's start from here. Was it bigger than this hall

12 that you're in now?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps wider.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps wider.


16 Q. And again how many people roughly were in that room?

17 A. I don't know the exact number.

18 Q. But was there room for you all to lie down at night?

19 A. No, no. Some would lie and some would stand up. We would take

20 turns.

21 Q. How long did they keep all of you in that one room for?

22 A. Perhaps two or three days, and then they let us go into the second

23 room, and they allowed our family members to bring in bed linen, food from

24 home, and so on. And then after some seven -- or during some seven to

25 eight days they would always escort us when we needed to go to the

Page 15880

1 toilets. Later on we were allowed to go unescorted. They would just let

2 us walk freely in the yard. So conditions improved on a daily basis.

3 Q. You were, the group that you were with were all put into that one

4 room. At a later stage, were other people brought to the factory?

5 A. Yes. Other people were brought in, and once other people were

6 brought in, they allowed us to use the second room, and they moved us

7 around, and then after ten to 15 days or perhaps less they started

8 releasing people. Initially, they would release the minors and then the

9 seniors, and then people would be released every week.

10 Q. Now, the people who were there, what ethnicity were they?

11 A. All of them were Muslims.

12 Q. Were there any Croats living in your area at all?

13 A. You mean Prnjavor municipality?

14 Q. Yes, but in the area of your village.

15 A. Not in Lisnja. In the surrounding area there were some people of

16 Polish, Ukrainian ethnicity and then the rest were all Serbs.

17 Q. And finally on that, all the people who had been kept at Sloga

18 were Muslims?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that sketch be made P1783, please?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Would you take note of that, Madam Registrar,

25 please? Thank you.

Page 15881

1 MS. KORNER: That we can hand in because the copy is fairly

2 clear. You can take it away now, thanks.

3 Q. Whilst you were at the Sloga factory, were interrogations carried

4 out?

5 A. There were interrogations. There were, yes.

6 Q. Were the interrogations carried out in the factory itself or

7 elsewhere?

8 A. Occasionally in the factory but mostly in the premises of MUP or

9 SUP.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to interrupt you like this --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry to interrupt you like this, but two things

13 actually. This has been put on the ELMO and it contains -- at least the

14 copy that I am given it contains the witness's initials. I don't know if

15 you care for that or not. Second question is whether it should be

16 tendered under seal.

17 MS. KORNER: Certainly, Your Honour, it should be tendered under

18 seal, I feel.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

20 MS. KORNER: If it was on the ELMO, it's too late now to do

21 anything about anyhow so -- thank you, Your Honour, for pointing that

22 out.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So it will be tendered and accepted under seal,

24 Madam Registrar, please, thank you, and I did something wrong with my

25 monitor or -- it's yours, too?

Page 15882

1 MS. KORNER: Well, actually I suppose as is there is delayed

2 transmission, perhaps we can just edit the transmission to cover that.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: If we could do that. I don't know whether

4 technically that is possible but I suppose it is. First of all, we have

5 lost -- I have lost my monitor completely. I'm not seeing anything.

6 MS. KORNER: If you press it again, Your Honour, that's what ours

7 did but it came back again if you press "transcript." No?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have yours? Yeah, it came back. Mine came

9 back. Judge Taya? Yeah, it's come back as well. All right. We are

10 okay.

11 MS. KORNER: All right.

12 Q. Now, you were telling us about interrogations. You said some at

13 the Sloga, others you said at the premises of the SUP or the MUP. Were

14 you taken out for interrogation?

15 A. Yes, I was.

16 Q. Once or more than once?

17 A. On several occasions.

18 Q. And where were you interrogated?

19 A. Mostly in the SUP premises. Sometimes for brief periods of time

20 in another place but mostly in SUP.

21 Q. Who was doing the interrogating, local police officers or other

22 people?

23 A. Sometimes locals, and on two or three occasions, people from Banja

24 Luka, though used to call it DB, state security or something like that.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Can we suspend the sitting for two minutes, please?

Page 15883

1 I need to go out and come back.

2 MS. KORNER: Certainly, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

4 --- Break taken at 11.40 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.43 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.


8 Q. Now, we were talking, I was asking you about the interrogations.

9 How did you know that these people from Banja Luka, the state security,

10 came from there?

11 A. While the local policemen drove to us the site, they would always

12 warn us that these would be people from Banja Luka. That's how I knew.

13 Q. Now, what sort of questions were they asking you? What did they

14 want to know, apparently?

15 A. They were interested in everything.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We lost our monitor again. This is the second time

17 that it's happened.

18 MS. KORNER: Court maintenance on Friday, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I know that. We'll proceed on the laptop.

20 It's come back anyway.

21 MS. KORNER: All right.

22 Q. Yes. You said they were interested in everything but what sort of

23 questions were they asking you?

24 A. They were asking first about the SDA, green berets, this and that,

25 weapons, what we thought about things, do you know what state you're

Page 15884

1 living in, and things like that. Mostly provocative questions.

2 Q. Were they suggesting that you personally had done anything?

3 A. No, nothing particular. They questioned us about everything.

4 Q. Now, you say they questioned you about weapons. What sort of

5 weapons?

6 A. They asked about who had weapons, what kind of weapons. They

7 asked whether we were preparing for combat, whether we were

8 organisation -- whether we were organising it and so on.

9 Q. What replies were you giving to that?

10 A. Sometimes we would say, I don't know. If we knew an answer we

11 would give it to them. That's how it went on.

12 Q. Did you ever admit to being involved in organising armed combat,

13 resistance?

14 A. I couldn't admit to something where I wasn't present.

15 Q. Now, did anything ever happen to you during the course of these

16 interrogations?

17 A. Well, on one occasion, when I was interrogated, the interrogator

18 was a different man, and he told me that I drove some member of the SDA to

19 Sarajevo, which was true, because I went to Sarajevo to visit my sister

20 and the man asked me whether he could come along and I said yes, and we

21 went to Sarajevo, we came back, and that was the end of it. I returned

22 back to the Sloga. The first policeman that interrogated me called me

23 over and asked me: Why were you lying? What didn't you tell me that you

24 were a member of the SDA because I heard what you said later on? And then

25 he told me to lean against the wall and he took a rifle and started

Page 15885

1 hitting me with it, and then he took something else into his hands and hit

2 me a couple of times, and then he told me to leave. I didn't comment. I

3 didn't make any comments while I was in there.

4 Q. This was happening at the Sloga, was it?

5 A. Yes, at the Sloga.

6 Q. What happened to you as the result of the beating?

7 A. I was in pain, and I had difficulty moving about, but I believe

8 that those consequences were not grave.

9 Q. What happened to you, did that happen to other people -- I'm

10 sorry, were other people taken, who were taken for interrogation, also

11 beaten?

12 A. As far as I'm aware, another person was, and -- another person was

13 beaten and that was in the SUP building, and then another person was

14 beaten at the Sloga, not by the interrogator but rather by a policeman who

15 guarded us from time to time. Then one evening, he came in and he hit the

16 man with a pistol on his face, and then the others called the ambulance

17 and took him to the hospital. And then later on, the policeman came in

18 and apologised, saying that he was drunk.

19 Q. Now, how long did you remain as a prisoner at the Sloga?

20 A. We remained at the Sloga until the 14th of September. I couldn't

21 tell you what date it was when we got there.

22 Q. During the time that you spent there, were you ever told why you

23 were being detained?

24 A. Several times, the then chief of police, Radoslav Vasic, I believe

25 his name was, came to see us. He told us that we were sort of guarded

Page 15886

1 there, to prevent anything bad happening to us. He encouraged us on those

2 occasions, told us we shouldn't be afraid, and told us that as long as

3 civilian authorities were in power, then things were fine. However, once

4 the military takes over the power, then I can't say what's going to

5 happen. So he used to calm us down.

6 Q. Did he mention any other camps to you, when he was talking about

7 the civilian authorities being in power and things were fine?

8 A. Well, he would stay maybe half an hour or more, talking to us. We

9 would put questions to him and so on. He would always encourage us and

10 say, "This is great. Nothing bad is going to happen to you. Things are

11 much worse in Prijedor and Doboj," and I don't know what other places he

12 was mentioning. I've forgotten it now. We are doing our best to protect

13 you here. That's what he was saying.

14 Q. Did you hear from him about any particular military camp in

15 Prnjavor?

16 A. Not from him, but from others, from the local policemen who were

17 guards there, used to tell us that conditions were great in our camp

18 compared to other camps. They used to mention Derventa Logor, and some

19 other camp -- and some other camps that I didn't see. And they used to

20 tell us that our camp was fantastic compared to others.

21 Q. You say that he mentioned something Logo?

22 A. They call it Derventa camp, Derventa Logor, something like that.

23 Q. And where was that?

24 A. According to what they state -- according to what they said, there

25 was an estate there, a farm there, and the camp was located on that

Page 15887

1 estate.

2 Q. Did it have a name, apart from Derventa?

3 A. That's all I heard. I don't know anything else.

4 Q. And do you know where that was, roughly? Where they told you that

5 was?

6 A. I know where the horse stable is, where that farm is. However,

7 the exact location, I couldn't tell you.

8 Q. How close to the town of Prnjavor?

9 A. Perhaps a couple of kilometres, 2 or 3, not far from Prnjavor.

10 Q. And did they -- did the police officers who were telling you about

11 this, tell you who was being held there and what the conditions were like?

12 A. No. They didn't mention anything.

13 Q. All right. Now, you were told that you were being kept in the

14 Sloga effectively for your own protection. Did you do anything --

15 A. Yes, that's exactly what they said.

16 Q. All right. Were you ever taken before a court in Banja Luka or

17 elsewhere and charged with any crime?

18 A. I personally was not. However, there were some papers received to

19 the effect that we would be transferred to another camp and so on.

20 However, we remained in Sloga and we hired an attorney. I couldn't tell

21 you exactly how many of us got together to hire this attorney, and on one

22 day, they came and took eight or ten people to a prison in Banja Luka, and

23 all of us who had hired an attorney remained at the Sloga without any

24 explanation whatsoever.

25 Q. All right. First of all, a number of you, eight or -- a number of

Page 15888

1 you hired an attorney. How much did each of you have to pay the attorney?

2 A. We gave an advance of a thousand Deutschmarks each initially.

3 Q. And who did you hire originally as your attorney?

4 A. The attorney was called Petko Vincic. I don't know whether Petko

5 was his first name or his nickname, however his last name was definitely

6 Vincic.

7 Q. And what nationality was he?

8 A. I believe he was a Serb. However he was married to a Muslim

9 woman.

10 Q. And what happened to him?

11 A. While we were still at the Sloga, perhaps a month had passed by, I

12 couldn't tell you exactly, however he was killed by a Serb soldier.

13 Q. All right. Now, I want you to have a look at a document, please.

14 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, I think we need to go into private

15 session for this.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session.

17 [Private session]

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 15889












12 Pages 15889 to 15893 redacted private session.














Page 15894

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now, Ms. Korner.

16 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

17 Q. Now you told us that you were kept in the Sloga factory until the

18 14th of September. On that day, was the factory closed?

19 A. On that day, two buses were organised to come and pick us up.

20 There were between 70 and 100 of us there and the others had been released

21 gradually before that. We were taken to the village. They gave us a day

22 or two to rest and then we all had to go to the work obligation. And this

23 lasted up to the time we eventually left.

24 Q. Had you already had to start the work obligation while you were

25 being kept at Sloga?

Page 15895

1 A. Yes. We started to do our work obligation. We were taken from

2 the Sloga to the fish farm or to Milankovic's estate where we had to do

3 some things, or we would do felling in the forest, things like that.

4 Q. What -- part of the work obligation was to work on Veljko

5 Milankovic's property, was it?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Now, did you go back to the village of Lisnja then, after you were

8 released from Sloga?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What sort of state was it in?

11 A. In the meantime, while I was still there, my father was still

12 alive, and he covered the bits that had been burned out so that they could

13 actually inhabit that house. Most of the houses were burned and my house

14 is, as it was at the -- at that time to this very day.

15 Q. Yes. You described your house. I want to talk about the village

16 generally for a moment. You told us that it contained about 3.000 people,

17 roughly how many houses? I don't expect an exact figure.

18 A. Between 700 and a thousand, roughly.

19 Q. Houses or people?

20 A. Houses, households, I don't know how I should put it.

21 Q. All right. So you're saying there were something like 700 to a

22 thousand houses as well? Actual buildings is what I mean.

23 A. Yes, actual buildings, yes.

24 Q. When you got back there, how many of them had been destroyed,

25 roughly? Not an exact figure again.

Page 15896

1 A. Between 80 and 100. At the beginning, some of them were destroyed

2 initially in the first wave, and later on some more were destroyed, but in

3 any case, between 80 and 100 houses were destroyed.

4 Q. Destroyed by shelling or by later destruction, either explosives

5 or setting the houses on fire?

6 A. Some houses, a couple of them, were destroyed by shelling. I

7 don't know how many shells actually fell on the village. A few maybe.

8 And the rest were destroyed by subsequent explosions, they were set fire

9 to.

10 Q. What about property that remained after the shelling or the

11 destruction? Was all your property there that wasn't destroyed?

12 A. As far as the actual building is concerned, it was there, but

13 things had been taken from the houses. Some -- from some houses, more

14 things were taken; from some, fewer things were taken. It depended.

15 Q. Well, in comparison to the houses, the majority of the houses in

16 the village, was yours an average size or bigger than most or smaller?

17 A. Mine was of an average size.

18 Q. Now, you've told us that your father had remained and had done

19 some repairs to it before you came back. What had actually been

20 destroyed?

21 A. The outbuildings were destroyed. It was some 20 metres long or

22 even longer. This was set fire to and it was, since this outbuilding was

23 connected with the house, the -- one part of the roof also burned down and

24 we repaired that part of the roof and the rest is as it was at that

25 moment.

Page 15897

1 Q. All right. I want you to have a look, please, at a document

2 already exhibited, which is P657.

3 MS. KORNER: It's in the bundle, Your Honours. We've got another

4 copy here. We can hand it up. Put the English on the ELMO.

5 Q. Sir, this is a report, a military report, which you won't have

6 seen but I want to ask for your comment on one aspect of it. It states

7 it's dated the 2nd of June and it states that "In Lisnja village, an armed

8 conflict occurred between Muslim extremists and the army of the Serbian

9 Republic. Some of the Muslim extremists were captured while a rather

10 large number of them pulled out towards Crni VRH."

11 Now, I know that you were in the police station when the attack

12 took place, but before you left, and this is on the 1st of June, as far as

13 you were aware, was anybody in your village armed? Was there any armed

14 unit of Muslims?

15 A. There was never any sort of unit there, never.

16 Q. It states that some of the Muslim extremists were captured. You

17 have told us that when you got to the cultural hall there were other

18 people there from your village there and others arrived. Were any of them

19 in uniform of any kind or, as far as you knew, any of them take part in

20 any fighting?

21 A. As far as I know, nobody took part in anything. I don't know what

22 was going on on that day because I wasn't there but in any case, no

23 resistance was put up, there was no fire opened. That's what I heard.

24 People were telling me that.

25 Q. And then if you look, please, at paragraph 2, at the end of that

Page 15898

1 paragraph, it states, it's the part beginning in the area of Derventa. It

2 says, "The Muslim population of the area of Lisnja village has been

3 expelled." Would you agree with that one?

4 A. It was not a classical expulsion. Again I repeat I was not

5 there. They just withdrew to a sawmill some 1 or 2 kilometres away.

6 That's where they spent the night. And on the following morning, women

7 and children went back home. The men had already been taken to Prnjavor

8 and that's how it all ended. This lasted for a couple of hours maybe.

9 Q. Right. And then finally, on the village, you've told us there was

10 a mosque in your village. When you got back there in September, was that

11 mosque still standing?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And then finally, sir, and this is the last question, I think in

14 January of 1993, you sent your children for (Redacted) is that

15 correct? I'm sorry, your children and the rest of your family had already

16 left for (Redacted)is that correct?

17 A. Two or three days before these developments, my children did

18 indeed go to Germany. My father and my wife remained. When I arrived

19 when I was released from the Sloga, maybe some ten or 15 days later, my

20 wife and my father left, and finally I left the village on the 18th of

21 January to go to Germany as well.

22 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much, sir. That's all the

23 questions I have for you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So shall we have a break now? 20

25 minutes. 25 minutes? 25 minutes. Thank you.

Page 15899

1 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, just one matter before

4 cross-examination, and the defendant -- the accused has to come in. We

5 just picked up Mr. Ackerman's motion objecting to the exhibits in

6 Petrovac. At the end it says: "The accused is not in possession of

7 several exhibits listed for this municipality. " That's all very well.

8 But he may have sent it in the e-mail to Ms. Gustin, she hasn't had a

9 chance to check it, but if he hasn't, can we know which ones he says he's

10 missing.

11 MS. BARUCH: He has sent an e-mail and numbered every exhibit that

12 was missing.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So it should be easy. Yes, Mr. Brdjanin, have you

16 been handed these two documents?

17 Mrs. Baruch? This one and this one?

18 MS. BARUCH: [Microphone not activated]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness before may have been right

20 because I think I did see an insignia of the Wolves of Vucjak with the

21 mouth open. I remember very, very, very vividly having seen one, either

22 in one of the films, or video clips.

23 MS. KORNER: That may be in, Your Honour, because in fact, he's

24 stills I think were taken from one of the videos but I don't think there

25 is much dispute about this one.

Page 15900

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes. So now, sir, what's going to happen is

2 that you are going to be cross-examined by the Defence team for

3 Mr. Brdjanin. As I explained to you before, the Defence here is doing its

4 duty and you have every responsibility and every duty that -- to answer,

5 and obligation to answer each question that is put to you the same way you

6 have answered the questions put to you by the Prosecution.

7 Yes, Mrs. Baruch.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Baruch:

9 Q. Good afternoon. My name is Barbara Baruch. I represent the

10 defendant in this case. Mr. Witness, you were aware when you walked into

11 this room that the defendant would be under guard, weren't you?

12 A. I assumed something like that but I didn't know it for sure.

13 Q. And the defendant in this case is the only person under guard in

14 this room; isn't that true?

15 A. Something like that.

16 Q. And the only person who doesn't appear to have an official

17 position in this room, correct?

18 A. I don't know. I wouldn't be able to say that.

19 Q. Well, I want to ask you some questions, first about your

20 statement, and then about your testimony. If you don't understand my

21 question or if I speak too quickly for you, will you let me know? Yes?

22 Okay.

23 You said that there was a demand to turn in weapons. Who

24 communicated that demand to you?

25 A. To me personally? Nobody, because I didn't have hunting weapons.

Page 15901

1 However, there was a story circulating the village, and that's how it was.

2 Q. So you learned about the demand to turn in weapons through just

3 gossip in the village?

4 A. Yes. There was some kind of an announcement, and then a neighbour

5 would pass it on to his neighbour and so on.

6 Q. When you say there was an "announcement," was there a meeting that

7 you heard about but didn't go to at which the announcement was made?

8 A. I'm not aware of that.

9 Q. So when you were told about turning in weapons, did the person

10 explain where they heard about it?

11 A. No. It was something that was spontaneously spread around.

12 Q. How did you know to -- which place to turn in your weapons?

13 A. We knew because it was said that the weapons ought to be turned

14 over in front of the culture centre.

15 Q. You said that somebody gave you a weapon. Who was that person?

16 A. What weapon do you have in mind? The hunting one or --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] It's the rifle.

18 MS. BARUCH: Excuse me. I think this will make it clear.

19 Q. You said the hunting or something else. Did you also have a

20 hunting gun?

21 A. No. I didn't have a hunting weapon. What I had in mind was the

22 surrender, because there were two instances where weapons were

23 surrendered, on the first instance it applied only to hunting weapons.

24 And then there was a second instance.

25 Q. And on which instance did --

Page 15902

1 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can I just interrupt? Your Honour, looking at

2 the screen, the question, you said: Somebody gave you the weapon. Who

3 was that person? And there is no answer to that because it then leads --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, but then we are specifically

5 referring -- we could only be specifically referring to the rifle and no

6 other weapon, because that's the only occasion when he said that he had

7 been given the rifle as a present.

8 MS. KORNER: Sorry, I think he gave an answer.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: He never mentioned who.

10 MS. KORNER: I see. I thought he did. All right. Then I'm

11 sorry.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: The question was: Who gave you that weapon. Who

13 was it that gave you that weapon?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a friend of mine, while I

15 still worked in Croatia. It was a small-calibre rifle which was used

16 mostly for hunting.


18 Q. And was that a friend from Lisnja or the Prnjavor area?

19 A. No, no. He was from Pakrac, Lipik. I spent a lot of time working

20 there.

21 Q. And are those two places in Croatia?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you pay for those -- that gun?

24 A. No. Nothing. When people were there as refugees, they used to

25 come and see me, as a friend, because we had known each other for 10 or 15

Page 15903

1 years, so they would simply stop by to see me. And as they were

2 withdrawing from Croatia, they also occasionally would stop by my house to

3 see me and sometimes we could see each other in Banja Luka as well.

4 Q. And on one of these occasions, when somebody stopped by your

5 house, he gave you this rifle?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did any other weapons come through your possession, even if you

8 didn't keep them?

9 A. No. I don't know what happened with other people but nothing came

10 to me.

11 Q. Okay. That's my question. About to you. Was this rifle the only

12 weapon you ever possessed?

13 A. That was the only one I had. I had a permit for a pistol that I

14 never purchased.

15 Q. Are you saying you got the permit but you never got the pistol?

16 A. That's right. I never bought it.

17 Q. Okay. And never in your life did you ever have another weapon but

18 this one rifle? Is that your testimony?

19 A. Never. After the war, I got myself a pistol.

20 Q. So what month and year would that have been?

21 A. I couldn't remember that.

22 Q. Because it was so long ago?

23 A. It was, ten years or more.

24 Q. So after the war, around 1991 or 1992, you got yourself a pistol?

25 A. No. I obtained a pistol now, after this war, perhaps it was in

Page 15904

1 2000.

2 Q. Okay. Now, do you know of other people who had weapons of any

3 sort, firearms, in Lisnja?

4 A. There had been stories as to this person had a weapon, that person

5 had a weapon. I can't say whether that is true or not because I don't

6 know about that.

7 Q. Did you ever see any other person in Lisnja after 1990 with a

8 weapon? Not a police officer.

9 A. Territorial Defence had weapons.

10 Q. That's the Territorial Defence that was -- consisted of Lisnja

11 residents?

12 A. Residents of the local commune of Lisnja, the population in Lisnja

13 was mixed. There were Serbs and there were Muslims.

14 Q. I thought Lisnja was mostly Bosniak?

15 A. Lisnja itself, yes, but the hamlet of Milosavci which was part of

16 the local commune of Lisnja had residents who were Serbs.

17 Q. Okay. The TO that would patrol in Lisnja, that was mostly Bosniak

18 members, wasn't it?

19 A. No, no. There were Serbs there as well.

20 Q. Do you know the percentage of Serbs?

21 A. I couldn't tell you that with certainty, since I wasn't a member

22 of that.

23 Q. So how do you know that there were Serbs there as well?

24 A. Because I know the people. I used to come across them. They

25 would be there patrolling all day long. The commander was a Serb. And I

Page 15905

1 used to know him from before, when I was a member of the reserve.

2 Q. So you used to be a member of the reserve yourself?

3 A. I was, naturally.

4 Q. I believe that about -- there were about 48 members from Lisnja of

5 the TO that patrolled in Lisnja. Do you know anything that disagrees with

6 that?

7 A. I don't know the figure. I know that it existed but how large it

8 was, I don't know.

9 Q. So would it also be true that you don't know the number of Serbs

10 in that TO?

11 A. We could say that, yes. I don't know about that.

12 Q. Okay. So when you say it was mixed, you really have no knowledge

13 of how many Serbs and how many Bosniaks; is that right? Except for the

14 captain.

15 A. Yes. There was a captain. There were members, yes. But as to

16 the exact strength of it, I don't know.

17 Q. Okay. In fact, the Bosnian members of the TO were all issued

18 weapons. Were you aware of that?

19 A. I was aware of that. I saw them with weapons, all of them had

20 weapons without any difference.

21 Q. And ammunition? You saw them with ammunition as well?

22 A. No, I didn't see that. Perhaps they had it packed somewhere but I

23 didn't see it.

24 Q. Are you aware that the people, the Bosnian members of the TO, did

25 not have their TO M48, I believe, rifles, taken back from them?

Page 15906

1 A. I wasn't present when weapons were taken away, so I couldn't tell

2 you.

3 Q. Okay. And you said, I think, that there were two occasions when

4 someone from the village told you that you had to turn in weapons to the

5 Dom Kultura; is that correct? You were there on two occasions when that

6 became known to you?

7 A. On the first occasion, when they asked for hunting weapons and

8 weapons with permit, I was there. And on the second occasion, I wasn't

9 present.

10 Q. And it was on the occasion that you weren't present that your wife

11 turned in the rifle that you had; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. When you say you weren't there, do you mean to tell this Chamber

14 that you were already in the arms of the police?

15 A. I don't consider that to be in the arms of the police because I

16 had an informative interview there, and then that took place, when the

17 weapons were being surrendered. All of us were at the police at the time.

18 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, it was a poor choice of words. When you went to

19 be interviewed by the police, is when the second request occurred and you

20 were not present? Is that correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. So on the first occasion, when you were aware that guns were

23 required to be turned in, you personally did not turn in your weapon?

24 A. I did not.

25 Q. And your wife turned the weapon in on her own initiative after you

Page 15907

1 were being interrogated by the police; is that correct?

2 A. No. There was an order to the effect that anybody who had weapons

3 had to surrender them in front of the culture centre.

4 Q. And your wife was the person who decided to take your rifle to the

5 culture centre; is that correct?

6 A. She had to take it since I wasn't present.

7 Q. Do you know or did you know of anybody other than yourself who had

8 a weapon of any sort, who failed to turn in the weapon the first occasion?

9 A. I wouldn't know about that. Patrols would go around checking, but

10 I don't know about that.

11 Q. So you don't know anybody else in Lisnja who had a weapon; is that

12 correct?

13 A. I personally didn't know about that. Later on when we were in

14 prison, we learned about it.

15 Q. Later on, when you were in prison, you learned that many people

16 from Lisnja had not turned in their weapon; is that correct?

17 A. Well, I didn't learn anything in particular. We were interrogated

18 and we, being inside, couldn't know what was going on outside.

19 Q. I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you. You said something

20 about later on, when you were in detention, you learned about other people

21 who had rifles. Did anybody give you that information? Not question you

22 about it but give you the information.

23 A. Well, when talking between each other we would hear that because

24 all of us were together so we could talk to each other and we did.

25 Q. And some people came into the custody of the Sloga factory after

Page 15908

1 you were first in custody there, isn't that true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would some of those people tell you that they had retained their

4 weapons even after the second order?

5 A. Nobody said that to me.

6 Q. I think you were some kind of a Muslim representative in or from

7 Lisnja; is that correct?

8 A. No. I was never anything like that. I was never involved in the

9 local commune.

10 Q. As a person of relative wealth and importance in the community,

11 did you speak up at community meetings?

12 A. Since my work was away from home, I couldn't really participate in

13 it. I couldn't take on any duties that I wasn't able to discharge.

14 Q. Well, do you know why anybody would describe you as a Muslim

15 representative in Lisnja?

16 A. I don't know. I did not describe myself as such.

17 Q. Did you hear about people who remained hidden in the woods after

18 June 1st of 1992?

19 A. Nobody was hidden. There was a person who spent some 10 to 15

20 days in hiding and then came out and surrendered. There were no

21 consequences for him. So I know only of one person who was hiding.

22 Q. Who was that person?

23 A. I think his name was Osman Rahimic.

24 Q. And did Mr. Rahimic have other friends -- strike that, Your

25 Honours. I apologise. How did you hear about Mr. Osman Rahimic?

Page 15909

1 A. Well, when he came, when he came, he surrendered and the police

2 brought him to Sloga. He told us that he had been in hiding, that he was

3 afraid, and once he got and joined us, he said, "Had I known it was like

4 this, I wouldn't have spent my time hiding."

5 Q. So at least one person who later came to the Sloga factory told

6 you that he had a weapon and he was hiding in the woods around Lisnja with

7 that weapon; isn't that correct?

8 A. I don't know. I know that Osman was in hiding.

9 Q. That's what I meant, Mr. Witness. I meant you had a conversation

10 with at least one person who did admit to you that he had a weapon and

11 went into the woods and was hiding. And he told you that at Sloga.

12 A. I don't know whether he had a weapon. I know that he was in

13 hiding.

14 Q. But he told you he had a weapon, didn't he?

15 A. I don't know. He didn't say that to me.

16 Q. So did Mr. Rahimic tell somebody who then told you?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. How did you hear about this?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: About what?

20 MS. BARUCH: About Mr. Rahimic hiding in the woods with a gun.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: He told you he doesn't know about it. It's the

22 first time he's hearing it from you. [Microphone not activated]

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: He's repeatedly stated that he is not aware of what

25 you are hinting at.

Page 15910

1 MS. BARUCH: I think if we go to line 13:28:27, which is still on

2 my screen.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: 13 what?

4 MS. BARUCH: My screen says 13:28:27, and it said --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That doesn't tally with mine so --

6 MS. BARUCH: Okay. One minute.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think -- the gentleman -- the gun

8 thing was never said by this witness.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

10 MS. KORNER: It was assuming I understand the American expression

11 assuming facts not in evidence. At no stage did this witness ever say

12 that he had heard that this man was hiding with a gun.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: This is why I intervened, Ms. Korner, because I was

14 being patient, allowing the question to be put again, repeatedly, in one

15 way or another, but he's denied it, he's told you straight and plain that

16 he's not aware of what you're hinting at. The only thing that he's aware

17 of is that this individual had spent some time hiding in the woods before

18 he was brought to the Sloga factory. That's it.

19 MS. BARUCH: And that when -- let me ask the witness.

20 Q. Mr. Witness, Mr. Rahimic told you that after he was hiding he

21 turned in his gun and turned himself in; is that correct?

22 A. No, no. That's not what he said to me. We heard that he had been

23 in hiding and that he came and surrendered and then was imprisoned

24 together with us. He never mentioned any weapons. I don't know anything

25 about that.

Page 15911

1 Q. Okay. Did you hear, when you were -- before you were in Sloga or

2 when you were in Sloga, that two groups of about 10 to 15 men each took

3 weapons that had been turned in to the police or the TO, that captain, at

4 gunpoint? Did you hear that?

5 A. I heard that there had been some incidents in Lisnja; however, I

6 couldn't give you any details.

7 Q. Incidents of what, Mr. Witness?

8 A. Involving weapons. However, I wasn't present so I couldn't say

9 anything more.

10 Q. Excuse me. You heard of incidents involving weapons, and

11 involving some young men who took weapons? Is that what you heard?

12 A. I don't know whether they took weapons or not. Perhaps somebody

13 else could speak about that, but I wasn't present so I don't know.

14 Q. So you wouldn't know if there was armed resistance in Lisnja while

15 you were at Sloga; is that correct?

16 A. As far as I know, there was no shooting at all. Lisnja was

17 shelled, though. However, there was no response from Lisnja, at least

18 that's what I heard, since I wasn't present.

19 Q. Did you hear that there were any police or any VRS or any

20 paramilitaries who were killed or injured near Lisnja, or in Lisnja?

21 A. I heard that three or four young men got killed, Bosniaks, that

22 they had been killed. That's what I heard. I don't know whether any

23 police members were injured or anybody else.

24 Q. So your response to my question is: You never heard of any police

25 or VRS or paramilitary person who was killed or injured in or near

Page 15912

1 Lisnja? Is that your statement?

2 A. I heard that some people were killed but not troops, rather

3 civilians. As to policemen and the regular army, I really don't know

4 about that.

5 Q. Now, did you -- you said that you saw a truck of people in

6 military uniforms that just drove through Lisnja; is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. The shooting, if any, that occurred on that occasion -- well,

9 first, did you witness any shooting on that occasion, yourself,

10 personally?

11 A. They were shooting while riding around. Nobody was injured.

12 Nobody was harassed. Nothing came out of it. They were simply shooting

13 and cursing.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, that's not the question. The question was a

15 very simple, straightforward one again. Did you personally witness any of

16 the shooting that has been mentioned? Did you see anyone -- did you see

17 these soldiers shooting?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You saw them?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


22 Q. And that shooting was like young soldiers, here I am, I'm brave,

23 I'm strong, shooting in the air, look at me? That kind of shooting?

24 A. Something like that, yes.

25 Q. Okay. Do you know if that was done by any Muslim soldiers, any

Page 15913

1 Bosniaks?

2 A. No. They weren't there at all.

3 Q. How would you know if somebody is a Bosniak or a Serb just seeing

4 them in a military truck?

5 A. I apologise. I meant Lisnja, when I said that, because there were

6 no troops in Lisnja. However, I don't know who the people on the truck

7 were.

8 Q. So you don't know if they were Bosniaks or Serbs or anything; is

9 that right?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. Would it be correct to say also that they just drove by where you

12 were so you saw them only for a few seconds or a minute perhaps? Is that

13 correct?

14 A. It was a brief period of time. They simply drove past us. The

15 village is quite large. And they drove through the village. And I'm

16 repeating again, nothing came out of it. Nobody was killed or hurt by

17 those soldiers.

18 Q. Do you remember that you said in your statement, and here in this

19 courtroom, that you had no idea why the police were looking for you? Do

20 you recall that?

21 A. I don't know. They asked me to come in for an informative

22 interview.

23 Q. But you did know at the time that you had in your possession a

24 rifle of very small calibre?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15914

1 Q. And you also knew at that time that a request had been made

2 generally for all weapons to be turned in? You knew that as well, right?

3 A. No. There was no announcement yet at the time.

4 Q. I thought you told me there were two announcements, once before

5 and once after you were in custody, yes?

6 A. One was before, but it only applied to hunting weapons and the

7 ones with permits. And the other instance was after we were detained.

8 Q. I need to understand that clearly. When you said hunting weapons

9 and with permits, you meant your belief was it had to be both a hunting

10 weapon and have a permit before it was required to be turned in? Was that

11 your understanding?

12 A. I don't know whether at that time I already had this rifle.

13 Q. Well, when was this first announcement made that weapons or when

14 did you first hear that an announcements had been made that you had to

15 turn in weapons?

16 A. I don't know the date, but in any case, it was in the spring. I

17 don't remember what month it was.

18 Q. In the spring of 1992, did you go to Croatia?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In the spring of 1992, did somebody come and visit you and give

21 you a gift of a weapon?

22 A. Yes. People did come, my acquaintances that is, and some would

23 even sleep at my place.

24 Q. And give you a weapon?

25 A. Yes. Some also left tractors, and other things, all sorts of

Page 15915

1 things they left with me.

2 Q. But I'm not interested in the tractors. What I want to know is:

3 Did people in the spring of 1992 come to your house, visit with you, and

4 leave you weapons?

5 A. Yes. This guy did leave me a rifle.

6 Q. At your house in the spring of 1992, correct?

7 A. I don't know which month exactly but, yeah, I suppose so.

8 Q. So just about the time when the weapons are being collected from

9 everybody, you have a visitor who comes and brings you a weapon. Is that

10 your testimony?

11 A. I don't know when the weapons were collected elsewhere. I know

12 when they were collected in Lisnja.

13 Q. When you were looking at P1800, which is under seal, do you know

14 which document I'm talking about?

15 A. No, no, no. I don't know.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't expect the witness to be asked to refer to

17 exhibits by number.

18 We are talking of the document which was shown to you where

19 supposedly you had been tried and sentenced in 1994. That's what we are

20 talking about.

21 Yes, Mrs. Baruch?


23 Q. Okay. You remember that document so that if you were convicted of

24 possession of a firearm or explosive material between March and May of

25 1992, it would have been true that you actually had that firearm between

Page 15916

1 the months of March and May of 1992; isn't that correct?

2 A. I don't know what months those were but yes there was this rifle

3 but it was handed over in due time and it was supposed to be handed over.

4 Q. And the fact that you admit it was handed over means you admit it

5 had been in your possession between March and May of 1992, do you agree?

6 A. It was not in my possession. I didn't use it. I didn't have it.

7 It was in my house. It was just left in my house and finally it ended

8 where it was supposed to end.

9 Q. Okay. Was there a weapon possessed or in your house that belonged

10 to your father or another relative as well as this particular rifle?

11 A. No. My father was old. He was a disabled person. He did not

12 have anything.

13 Q. My question wasn't only limited to your father. I said a weapon

14 that belonged to somebody else that was kept in your house. Were you

15 aware of any others?

16 A. There were people in my house just occasionally. They would come

17 and go. What they had on them, I wasn't in the position to know.

18 Q. I think your statement says that you were at a cousin's house.

19 You said in court today you were at your neighbour's house. Was your

20 neighbour also your cousin?

21 A. Yes. That was my cousin, my relative.

22 Q. And when you were at your cousin's house, did you or he have a

23 weapon with you or with him?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. And how far away was this cousin's house from your house?

Page 15917

1 A. Maybe 20 or 30 metres. We are neighbours so our houses were

2 close.

3 Q. And did you actually recognise any of the police as they were

4 walking up to your house or your cousin's house? Or did you just see a

5 tall person who was in a police uniform?

6 A. I was not sure whether it was Dragan Mehtic but then when I

7 reported to the police, he confirmed that it had been him.

8 Q. Did at any time Dragan Mehtic ask you if you had any weapons?

9 A. Yes. When I was being interviewed, I was asked whether I had any

10 weapons, and whether the weapons had been handed over. In other words,

11 whether I had any and whether I surrendered them, and then I told them

12 yes, when I learned that it was supposed to be handed over, that's exactly

13 what I did.

14 Q. But you didn't do it. Your wife did it. Isn't that true?

15 A. Yes, but I heard that she had done it.

16 Q. Okay. Now, you saw Senijad Mujanic and Zinaid Gusic at the police

17 station, didn't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember from the document that the police -- that the

20 Prosecutor showed you that Senijad Mujanic was also later convicted of

21 possession of firearms or explosives?

22 A. I don't remember that. I only saw it now when you -- when this

23 document has been shown to me. Up to that moment, this was all unfamiliar

24 to me. I didn't know about that.

25 Q. Well, perhaps you didn't know about the document, but were you

Page 15918

1 familiar with the fact that Senijad Mujanic actually did possess a firearm

2 or explosive?

3 A. No. I didn't know anything like that. It was the first time that

4 I saw this plus the conviction.

5 Q. Now, Zinaid Gusic whom you also saw, you gave him your car keys, I

6 think you said, because you didn't know when you would go back; is that

7 right?

8 A. No, I didn't say that I did not say that I did not know when I

9 would be back, but I had heard that there was a state of chaos in Lisnja

10 and I gave him my car to take it from in front of the police station where

11 it was.

12 Q. To take it home because you didn't believe that you yourself would

13 be able to take it home; is that right?

14 A. Well, yes. I assumed because of the turmoil. I didn't know what

15 to think.

16 Q. Okay. So when you first saw the police officer coming, you ran

17 away, and then when you got to the police station, you gave your car keys

18 to somebody else because you didn't believe that you would be able to

19 drive home yourself; is that right?

20 A. No. It's not. That was not the sequence. I reported to the

21 police on Saturday. Then they told me to come back on Monday. I came by

22 my car. We had a short conversation. They took me into a room and it was

23 only in the evening or late in the afternoon, or -- when this happened. I

24 did ask them whether I could come by my own car and they said yes, you

25 can, of course.

Page 15919

1 Q. That you could go home in your own car? They said you could? Is

2 that what you said?

3 A. Yes, yes. As soon as I arrived they asked me: How did you get

4 here? I said: By car. And they said: Okay. So everything was okay.

5 There was no hint as to show me that something unusual was happening.

6 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, again I'm confused. You actually went to the

7 police station two times. The first was on Saturday and they told you,

8 Drago Mehtic wasn't there and you should come back on Monday, right? Is

9 that correct?

10 A. Dragan Mehtic was not there but they called him and he came in

11 civilian clothes. He then told me: Can you come back Monday? I went

12 home and I came back Monday.

13 Q. Okay. So when you gave your keys to Gusic, was that on Saturday

14 or on Monday?

15 A. It was on Monday, I believe.

16 Q. And it wasn't only Bosniaks who were being detained? You also saw

17 a person you identified as a Serbian soldier who was being held in police

18 custody while you were there, isn't that true?

19 A. Yes. That's what I said.

20 Q. Okay. And I am assuming it was at least on Monday, not on

21 Saturday, that you saw these other people who you knew from Lisnja in the

22 jail; is that right?

23 A. Yes, yes. I did say that this was on Monday. I did not mention

24 Saturday in that context.

25 Q. Okay. And one of the people that you saw on Monday was that

Page 15920

1 Abdulah Seperovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you notice on the document that the Prosecutor handed you

4 that Mr. Seperovic was also convicted of possession of a firearm and/or

5 explosives?

6 A. I saw a number of names, probably his name was also there, but I

7 did not actually see it.

8 MS. BARUCH: Your Honours, may we have the witness hold that

9 exhibit so that he won't have to guess?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, usher, please, could you hand Document P1800 to

11 the witness? Could you refer him, Madam Baruch, to page or number?

12 MS. BARUCH: I think it's Number 38, if I've got it right, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, please go to Number 38. And your

15 question, please?


17 Q. He was a person, that is Abdulah Seperovic was a person who was

18 also convicted of possession of a firearm or explosives, correct?

19 A. Yes, judging by this document, this indeed was the case.

20 Q. And while you were in the jail, you also saw Sead Dzinic, didn't

21 you? Did you see him there?

22 A. Dzinic is a hamlet. I don't know people from that hamlet that

23 well so I can't be so sure. This is a bit further from my village.

24 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought in your statement that you specifically

25 mentioned him, or at least you specifically mentioned the name Dzinic on

Page 15921

1 page 3 of your statement, didn't you see somebody named Dzinic while you

2 were at the jail?

3 A. There were a number of people with that family name. There is a

4 whole family bearing the same name in that hamlet, and the hamlet itself

5 is called the same.

6 Q. Well, let me ask you if you saw Sead Dzinic at the jail when you

7 were there.

8 A. I don't know who Sead Dzinic is. Maybe he was. I may have seen

9 him, but I don't know him. I can't put a face to that name. I don't know

10 who he is.

11 Q. And you saw several people in the jail whose name was Halilic; is

12 that right?

13 A. I did, yes, there were quite a few people bearing that name.

14 Q. Like Zijad, yes? Do you know Zijad Halilic?

15 A. Zijad?

16 Q. Could you look at Number 26 on the exhibit?

17 A. I don't think that Zijad was in prison.

18 Q. For possession of a firearm or explosive in May of 1992? You

19 don't believe that?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are mixing things up now because.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, microphone, please. Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We are mixing things up because first you ask I

23 don't think that Zijad was -- he says: I don't think that Zijad was in

24 prison. Well, obviously, what you are referring to is the -- you weren't

25 referring to prison.

Page 15922

1 MS. BARUCH: I was referring to the jail at which this witness was

2 in.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So we have to get this clear and before we

4 get this clear, I think what we need to get from the witness is whether he

5 knew that Zijad Halilic, number one; and secondly, whether Zijad Halilic

6 was with him at the time in the Sloga.

7 MS. BARUCH: In the jail. In the jail.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Or in the jail.

9 Sir, did you know Zijad Halilic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I knew -- I do know Zijad

11 Halilic.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you see him in the jail? Which jail?

13 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, does he mean the police

14 station or at the factory or the Dom Kultura?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you see him in any of these three places that

16 Ms. Korner has just mentioned, the police --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.


19 Q. How about Izet Halilic, Number 15? Did you see him in the jail

20 cell at the police station when you were there on Monday?

21 A. No, no. He wasn't there.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think we have to finish here because we have

23 already gone beyond our limit and I don't want to keep -- yes,

24 Mr. Nicholls.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I just want to

Page 15923

1 ask -- I don't know what page of her 19 pages of cross-examination we are

2 on so I know whether or not to bring my witness -- or how much more there

3 is so I don't bring him too early.

4 MS. BARUCH: I can only say that some of my questions will

5 disappear upon responsive answers. So if you want to know what page

6 number I'm looking at right now, it's page 3 but I have added a lot of

7 questions from direct examination of this witness.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: So 10.00 a.m. should be safe?

9 MS. BARUCH: I don't know. I would be more than happy to come at

10 whatever time the Court says and proceed. I doubt it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We have to stop here. I thank the

12 interpreters and the technicians and everyone else for bearing with us.

13 I'm sorry to have gone beyond the limits, the time limits. Thank you.

14 And we will reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

16 1.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

17 the 20th day of May, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.