Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17125

1 Friday, 6 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call the

6 case, please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you follow the proceedings in a language that

12 you can understand?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please be seated.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution?

16 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner assisted by Denise Gustin, case

17 manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

19 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman, I'm

21 here with David Cunningham and Vesna Anic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you too. So

23 let's -- anything before bringing in the witness? All right. So we go

24 into closed session.

25 [Closed session]

Page 17126












12 Pages 17126 to 17194 redacted closed session.














Page 17195

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

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5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we are in open session. I promised you

17 Ms. Korner and Mr. Ackerman that I would hand down the substance of the

18 decision on the fresh motion for the subpoena of Jonathan Randal. Our

19 decision --

20 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it's in open session but this is

21 technically there is a confidential -- I think Your Honour will have to do

22 a public motion eventually.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, in fact it's part of the decision is to lift

24 the confidentiality.

25 MS. KORNER: Right.

Page 17196

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So I'm specifying that first. And then I can

2 proceed.

3 So the part of the decision is precisely that there is no reason

4 why the decision itself and all the proceedings relating to it ought to

5 remain confidential. They are -- confidentiality is being lifted. The

6 second and main part of the decision is that the motion is being rejected

7 and the third part is that the article itself is being admitted in

8 evidence, with the usual caveat that the -- whether the -- whether any

9 probative value or any value at all would be given to it will be decided

10 later on during the Chamber's final deliberations. So that's the

11 position.

12 MS. KORNER: I take it, Your Honour, that full reasons for these

13 decisions --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Will be included in the written.

15 MS. KORNER: Will be included in the written judgement.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes exactly and the reason why the written judgement

17 is not being handed down today is that there is a divergence of opinion on

18 a part of the decision, of the decision, not on the decision itself, on

19 the decision we are fully and unanimously in agreement but we are

20 deliberating whether to incorporate it in the decision itself or have it

21 come forward as a separate opinion explaining the -- one particular aspect

22 which does not affect the decision itself but it's part of the reasoning.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. I mean, I'm told by Mr. Ackerman,

24 I have not yet seen it, but that he's filed a formal motion raising the

25 same point that he raised yesterday in respect of the Glas article but in

Page 17197

1 writing. I don't know whether Your Honours have seen it.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I have not seen it, no. No, we haven't seen it.

3 MS. KORNER: I don't know how much effect that will have on any

4 ruling or indeed what --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: If there is a motion, please reply it to it ASAP and

6 we will decide it.

7 MS. KORNER: When we get it Your Honour we're having -- at the

8 moment we are only told it has been filed nothing has been given to us.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't seen it either. Yes, Mr, Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: It's just my typical objections to various exhibits

11 in the Celinac batch. I mentioned it to you yesterday, I mentioned that I

12 had trouble getting it faxed to the Registry.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I see but that's different.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: So there is no formal motion. It's just my

15 objections and I think you've primarily ruled upon them. I don't think

16 the Prosecutor probably needs to respond unless they feel they need to.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: There is obviously a misunderstanding here.

18 MS. KORNER: Sorry, I understood from Mr. Ackerman when I asked

19 him this morning that he had filed a specific motion in respect of the

20 non-admittance of newspaper articles because they are in breach of Rule 92

21 bis. And that's wrong is it?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: He's not going to tell you that's wrong.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: It's not wrong. It's right.

24 MS. KORNER: Well, then, Your Honour, I think we probably have to

25 formally respond to that.

Page 17198

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We decided it yesterday, Ms. Korner. I said that I

2 considered this indeed novel but quite incomprehensible submission of

3 law. That's how I consider it. And that's -- we gave a decision

4 accordingly. It was a very short oral decision that we completely

5 disagree with his submission and that's it. I don't think you need to

6 respond. If later on there is a formal motion putting more flesh, then we

7 obviously go into it and I would imagine that we will willy-nilly have to

8 come to this at some point in time later on during submissions because

9 there are several documents that Mr. Ackerman I would expect would

10 continue objecting to and stress and make submissions upon so our position

11 is a very simple one. I mean we are adopting the procedure that has been

12 adopted so far in practically all the other trials pursuant also to some

13 of the decisions of the Appeals Chamber, that more or less unless on the

14 face of it, a document is absolutely unacceptable and inadmissible from

15 the very word go, we admit it with the usual caveat, and basing ourselves

16 later on on the various principles regulating evidence, we will see what

17 importance if at all to attach to these documents, particularly although

18 not exclusively had they happened to be newspaper articles so -- but

19 it's -- we are not excluding giving newspaper articles any importance. We

20 might. There were some newspaper articles this morning, for example,

21 which might carry some weight, considering the rest of the evidence or

22 might not be given any weight.

23 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Before I re-raise the

24 matter I think I'll wait for Your Honours --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Korner. Microphone for

Page 17199

1 Ms. Korner.

2 MS. KORNER: Sorry. I'll await Your Honours decision on this and

3 the reason that you give for refusing the witness summons. Your Honour,

4 may I just add a word of caution. The public version will of course be

5 very careful to avoid any reference to matters that were confidential.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We have taken that into consideration again, as

7 well, I mean that's why I started precisely with the confidentiality, the

8 annex, if I remember well, will remain -- it has been taken care of,

9 Ms. Korner already.

10 MS. KORNER: I wonder if before it's -- if it's before it goes to

11 the press, we could be kind enough for it not to be released immediately

12 to the press until we've had a look at it. We are just a little concerned

13 because there was a genuine reason for the confidentiality aspect because

14 if you're releasing our motion which we have no objection to, save in so

15 far as there was reference to matters which should remain confidential so

16 we'd just like to check it before the public version goes out.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will do that, giving a copy to Mr. Ackerman

18 as well, with the understanding that it will be kept for your eyes only

19 until we then make it public, okay? I have your word.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour I just wonder if you would consider at

23 page 66, line 1.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, I have to go to page 66.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 66, line 1. I wonder if you would consider

Page 17200

1 striking the word incomprehensible as a description of my submission. I

2 think it was comprehensible, you just rejected it. It's embarrassing to

3 be publicly described as someone making incomprehensible submissions.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I really thought about it, Mr. Ackerman,

5 but if it irritates you, I take it back, I take it back.

6 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honour think it wise to take the break now

7 before bringing the witness in?

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. I think so. How long do you expect

9 this witness to last on direct, Ms. Sutherland?

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: A few hours, Your Honour. I won't finish him

11 today.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: There is no chance of going through his statement

13 and asking him whether he would confirm --

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can I discuss it with Ms. Korner at the break.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: If Mr. Ackerman is prepared for the

16 cross-examination, perhaps we could finish him.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: The only problem Your Honour, I wanted to put a

18 number of documents to the witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That's taken for granted but he's a pretty

20 straightforward witness in the sense that I'm not saying that there is

21 nothing in his statement that is or may not be controversial but it's the

22 kind of statement that perhaps when one -- one could adopt with additional

23 questions and of course supporting documents, and then perhaps if

24 Mr. Ackerman or Mr. Cunningham, I don't know who would be cross-examining

25 him, hasn't got much time, or doesn't envisage a lengthy

Page 17201

1 cross-examination, any way, could you discuss it amongst yourselves?

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Certainly, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Usher, bring the witness in, please.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I did discuss the matter with the

8 Defence during the break and we both agree that we would rather take the

9 witness as we normally do.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: When I said a few hours I mean possibly two. I

12 don't think it's going to be a long time.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have areas where perhaps it will be shorter

14 and more practical to refer straight to the statement, go there. I'm not

15 asking for the statement to be exhibited or be tendered an exhibit,

16 instead, or in lieu of the testimony. That's not what I'm asking but

17 certain parts can be read out and we cut what could become a long story

18 quite short.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'll also be referring to Exhibits

20 P2052, 62, 63 and 64 which don't appear on that proposed exhibit list.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me jot them down. Today or on Tuesday when we

22 continue.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Perhaps on Tuesday.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: 2052, 2062 -- 2062 or just 62. 2063 and 2064. All

25 right.

Page 17202

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning -- or good afternoon to you, sir. You

3 are Mr. Jadranko Saran?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome to this Tribunal. You are a witness in the

6 proceedings, in the trial that has been instituted against Radoslav

7 Brdjanin, and very shortly you will start giving your testimony. Our

8 rules require that before you do so, you enter, you make, a solemn

9 declaration, equivalent to an oath, that in the course of your testimony,

10 you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The

11 text is contained in a piece of paper that the usher, Madam Usher is

12 handing to you now. Please read it out, aloud, and that will be your

13 solemn undertaking with this Tribunal.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through Interpreter]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. Please take a chair, a seat.

19 Considering who you are, I don't think I need waste time to explain to you

20 the procedure. Ms. Sutherland will start with her examination-in-chief.

21 And she will be followed by Mr. Cunningham with his cross-examination on

22 behalf of Mr. Brdjanin. That won't happen today. I suppose it will be on

23 Tuesday. Ms. Sutherland.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:

Page 17203

1 Q. Sir, could you please state your full name?

2 A. My name is Jadranko Saran.

3 Q. You were born on the 19th of November, 1958, in Sokolac in

4 Herzegovina?

5 A. I was born on the 19th of November, 1959, in Stolac, in

6 Herzegovina.

7 Q. The translation came through as 1959. Were you born in 1958 or

8 1959?

9 A. 1958.

10 Q. Sir, I'm just going to go through some background information,

11 your background information. If you could just answer yes or no when I

12 put the question to you we will move a little bit faster. Is your

13 father's first name Hadze?

14 A. Hadze.

15 Q. Your ethnicity is Bosniak and your religion is Islam?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You graduated from the University of Mostar in 1983 majoring in

18 economics? Sir, you need to respond for the -- into the microphone so

19 that it gets picked up to be put on to the transcript.

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. After finishing university, you worked in Stolac as an economist

22 until 1987 when you moved to Bosanska Krupa municipality?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you took up a position there as an economist in the

25 Kombitekst, the textile factory, as chief import/export services? Is that

Page 17204












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17205

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. On the 1st of September, 1991, you were appointed as the deputy

4 commander of the police station in Bosanska Krupa?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you applied for that post?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was your father a policeman?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You remained in this position as deputy commander of police until

11 the 25th of April, 1992?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you currently hold the position of chief of police in Bosanska

14 Krupa?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What position do you currently hold?

17 A. I am a company manager of a company called Kemokomerc, in a

18 canton.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name of the

20 canton, Usko-Sanski canton, the canton of Sanski Most.


22 Q. And you are married with two children?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you at some stage become the chief of police in Bosanska

25 Krupa?

Page 17206

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how long did you hold that position for and when was it?

3 A. Almost eight years. From April, 1994, until November, 2001.

4 Q. I want to move now to ask you a few questions about the

5 municipality of Bosanska Krupa. Could the witness be shown Exhibit P60?

6 Sir, this is a record of the 1991 census figures. Could I ask you to go

7 to Bosanska Krupa, which is on page 3 of the document, midway down the

8 page? We can see that the 1991 results, there were 58.320, that was the

9 total population. And of that number, 43.104 were of Muslim ethnicity,

10 13.841 were Serbs, there were 139 Croats, and 1.236 declared themselves as

11 Yugoslav or other? In other words, this is a municipality where the

12 overwhelming majority was of Muslim ethnicity; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And from your own experience, that was true?

15 A. Yes, correct.

16 Q. Do you recall the approximate percentages of the Muslims and the

17 Serbs?

18 A. 76 per cent were Muslims, Bosniaks, and 24 per cent approximately

19 Serbs, and 2 per cent of others.

20 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document. Could the witness

21 be shown Exhibit P56? Sir, after the events which occurred in the

22 municipality in April, 1992, which we will discuss a little later, you

23 remained in the municipality, did you not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you look at that document? It consists of figures compiled

Page 17207

1 by the Banja Luka CSB in May, 1993. We can see for Krupa na uni that

2 approximately 43.300 Muslims had moved out by May, 1993, and approximately

3 4.760 Serbs and 143 Croats? And we can see from this document that the

4 data for the number of Serbs moving in was not available. Could you tell

5 the Court briefly where all the Muslim residents went?

6 A. Well, this is the document done by the security services centre in

7 Banja Luka. It is probably true. All Muslims, Bosniaks, that were in the

8 territory of the municipality of Bosanska Krupa after the war broke out,

9 they escaped, that is they were expelled to the left bank of the Una River

10 to a free territory, while the Muslim enclaves that remained on the right

11 bank of the Una River, Muslims inside of them were captured and later on

12 deported, either towards the Bihac area or further away abroad, by the

13 Serbs.

14 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown a map of the ethnic

16 composition of Bosanska Krupa? This is a new exhibit, Your Honour, and if

17 it can be provisionally marked as P2020? If that map could be placed on

18 the ELMO?

19 Q. Sir, with the pointer that's just in front of you, the silver

20 pointer, could you take that and point on the ELMO machine to your right

21 and just explain to the Judges what you meant a moment ago when you spoke

22 about the left and the right bank?

23 A. In the town of Bosanska Krupa is divided by the Una River, as a

24 kind of natural border. On two parts. There is the right bank of the Una

25 River, of the Bosanska Krupa town is more urban settlements. That's the

Page 17208

1 urban part of town. And then there is the left bank of the Una, that is

2 of Bosanska Krupa, and you can see on the ELMO that it is in green colour

3 that the areas were marked where the Muslims had majority, in terms of the

4 population, while it was in other colours that the area was marked in the

5 areas where Serbs were the majority, had the majority population.

6 The right bank of the town of Bosanska Krupa and the Muslims who

7 were on the right bank, on the right side, after the war broke out, they

8 managed to cross to the left bank, to the left side, while on the

9 right-hand side, there is only Muslim enclaves that were left, Veliki

10 Dubovik, Arapusa, Ostroznica, Mali Badic and Veliki Badic. This

11 population was blocked by the Serbs, and they couldn't get out to the left

12 side, to the left bank of the Una River.

13 Q. Sir, pause there. We will go into more detail in relation to that

14 a little later in your testimony. Just for now, so you've mentioned the

15 towns, the Muslim towns that were on the right bank. Can you tell Their

16 Honours, for example, is the town of -- the village of Ljusina, Prstaline,

17 Jezerski, are they all -- they are all the Muslim villages on the left

18 side of the bank? The left bank?

19 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

20 Q. Looking at the village of Perna, can you point to that? And is

21 that misspelled on this map. It should be P-E-R-N-A?

22 A. P-E-R-N-A.

23 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that map.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown another map of the

25 Bosanska Krupa municipality? And it could be provisionally marked P2021.

Page 17209

1 Q. Sir, this map here shows the municipality in full and it also

2 shows the other municipalities that surround it, does it not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I've finished with that map for the moment. I want you to look at

5 some photographs which appear on that -- on P2021. Actually just while

6 you've got it there. Can you tell the Judges what is depicted in

7 photograph number 1?

8 A. Arapusa, the village of Arapusa.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour in order to save time that is also

10 depicted in photograph P2113.1.

11 Q. Sir what is depicted in photograph number 2?

12 A. The photograph number 2 is depicting the Petar Kocic primary

13 school and its sports hall, its gym.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: For Your Honours and the Defence that is

15 photograph number P2113.2.

16 Q. Sir what is shown in photograph number 3?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Where is the village on the map?

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, yes.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Can -- yes.


22 Q. Your pointing to the village of Arapusa?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the Petar Kocic elementary school is in Arapusa?

25 A. No. The Petar Kocic school is in the centre of the town of

Page 17210

1 Bosanska Krupa, near the hospital, approximately here.

2 Q. Correct. And Your Honour was wanting to you points on the map

3 where the Petar Kocic school was. What is shown in photograph number 3?

4 A. That is the outside-view of the same school, Petar Kocic.

5 Q. Your Honours and the Defence that is P2113.6. Sir, finally what

6 is shown in photograph number 4 on that exhibit?

7 A. Photograph number 4 is the village of Jasenica.

8 Q. Do you know which particular building in the village of Jasenica?

9 A. Primary school.

10 Q. And that is P2113.7. Can you point to the village of Jasenica on

11 the map?

12 A. [Indicates]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


15 Q. Thank you. I've finished with those maps -- that map, thank

16 you. Sir, are you aware of any military installations that were in the

17 Bosanska Krupa municipality?

18 A. There were no military installations in the Bosanska Krupa

19 municipality.

20 Q. And where were the nearest installations?

21 A. The nearest installations were in Bihac, Petrovac, Prijedor.

22 Q. And that was the JNA?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want to turn to another topic now. Have you ever been a member

25 of any political party?

Page 17211

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know who was elected as president of the municipal assembly

3 after the 1990 elections, who became the president?

4 A. You mean of Bosanska Krupa?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Mehmet Mahic, his name was Mehmet Mahic.

7 Q. What was his ethnicity?

8 A. Muslim, Bosniak.

9 Q. Do you know who was the head of the TO in Bosanska Krupa?

10 A. Hasim Djulic.

11 Q. And what was his ethnicity?

12 A. Muslim, Bosniak.

13 Q. I now want to turn to the police. Who was the chief of the police

14 before the war?

15 A. Semso Velic.

16 Q. What was his ethnicity?

17 A. Muslim, Bosniak.

18 Q. Who was the commander of the police?

19 A. Laza Stupar, a Serb.

20 Q. And he was your immediate superior?

21 A. Yes. In fact, yes, yes.

22 Q. And what was the commander of the police in charge of?

23 A. The commander of the police was in charge of the uniformed

24 policemen, and the person who was in charge of the use of police, it's

25 through him that all the orders went, but as far as the chief of police is

Page 17212

1 concerned, he was the head of the uniformed police as well as of the

2 administration while the commander of the police was the one who commanded

3 the police in uniform and issued orders.

4 Q. And who was the commander of the criminal investigation?

5 A. Mile Mudrinic, a Serb.

6 Q. Could you briefly tell the Court the ethnic composition of the

7 police in Bosanska Krupa in 1991?

8 A. The ethnic composition in 1991 looked like this: 60 to 70 per

9 cent at least members of the police were Serbs. The rest were Muslims,

10 Bosniaks.

11 Q. Did the composition change, and if so, when?

12 A. In March, 1992, there was more of a balance, as far as the ethnic

13 composition of the police is concerned, and there were more policemen who

14 were Muslims, that is Bosniaks, and they were given the chance to become

15 employees of the police.

16 Q. You mentioned 1992. Is that correct?

17 A. I am saying that the majority in February or March, that's when

18 the balance, there was much more of a balance, but already in 1991,

19 October, November, what was then also present was the -- more of an

20 increased employment of Muslims, Bosniaks. That's when this process of

21 balancing began.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland, may I please butt in here? In

23 your statement, on page 3, you don't need to see it, but I can read out to

24 you, you say, "It was not until February or March, 1991 that the ethnic

25 composition of the police started to become more balanced with more

Page 17213

1 Bosniaks and less Serbs being recruited." Is it correct February or

2 March, 1991, or 1992?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right. 1991.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Because until now he's been referring to February,

6 March, 1992.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's why I asked the question, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: So we've cleared it.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


12 Q. Sir, what was the relationship like between the Serbs and the

13 Bosniaks prior to the war?

14 A. Good.

15 Q. Did that change in any way? And if so, when?

16 A. Things changed. That could have happened already in 1991, when

17 the Serbs wanted to establish a community of Serb municipalities of

18 Krajina. It was from then that they put everything into this objective

19 for the municipality of Bosanska Krupa, they were -- they established the

20 Serb municipality of Bosanska Krupa. From then on, that's when the

21 animosity started to develop and increase between Bosniaks and the Serbs.

22 Q. Was there also an incident that occurred in September of 1991?

23 A. Yes. In September, 1991, in the Bosanska Krupa municipality, that

24 is in Bosanska Otoka, Milan Martic was arrested together with a general, I

25 do not recall the name of the general, and a driver.

Page 17214












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Page 17215

1 Q. And was Martic released or was he kept in custody?

2 A. That day, when Martic was arrested, that is he had been recognised

3 by citizens on the iron bridge in Bosanska Otoka he was stopped at the

4 checkpoint and after that he was arrested and transferred to the police

5 department in Bosanska Otoka. He was kept that night and the following

6 day, he was released following the intervention of the federal Ministry of

7 the Interior and a gentleman who had come, he was the deputy Minister of

8 the Interior, Avdo Hebib.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, sir, what was the ethnicity of the

10 police who stopped and detained Mile Martic at the checkpoint in Bosanska

11 Otoka?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several policemen. I --

13 at the moment I can't tell you exact what their ethnicity was, but what

14 happened was the citizens recognised Mr. Martic in the car because there

15 was an arrest warrant in Croatia for -- that was issued for him, and

16 that's why he was detained at the police department.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I accept that at the moment you can't tell exactly

18 what their ethnicity was, but taking into consideration that at the time

19 the ethnic composition in the police force was -- still showed a majority

20 of Serbs, would you say that the composition of that -- of the police

21 group at that checkpoint would be also predominantly Serb when they

22 arrested Martic?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. That was the police

24 detachment in Bosanska Otoka was mixed. There were both Serbs and Muslims

25 but who was at the checkpoint at the time I wouldn't know.

Page 17216

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

2 Yes, go ahead, Ms. Sutherland.


4 Q. Just for completeness, who is Milan Martic?

5 A. Mile Martic was the President of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

6 and the organiser of the rebellion in Krajina.

7 Q. Are you talking about the Krajina in Bosnia or the Krajina in

8 Croatia?

9 A. Yes, in Croatia.

10 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that relations changed between the Serbs

11 and the Bosniaks when the Serbs wanted to create their own municipality?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But before we go on to that, after Martic's release, did something

14 happen at the police station, the Bosanska Krupa police station?

15 A. Yes. First time it happened that policemen of Serb nationality,

16 that is for the first time in Bosnia-Herzegovina that it happened, that

17 the policemen of Serb ethnicity simply all went to the village of Jasenica

18 taking the weapons and vehicles with them, those vehicles they had access

19 to. They remained in the village of Jasenica, establishing their own

20 police station, i.e., only Serb police station, and they established some

21 checkpoints.

22 Since this is the first time that it happened in Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina, there was a team from the federal Ministry of the Interior

24 that came from Sarajevo and representatives of the union, they all came to

25 Bosanska Krupa, trying to convince the Serbs that they should return to

Page 17217

1 the mother station and continue their work. They couldn't get through

2 with official vehicles because of the roadblocks, so they had to use a

3 helicopter to go to the village of Jasenica, they had their discussions

4 and returned. And then after about seven days, the Serbs returned to the

5 police station of Bosanska Krupa and started to work together with the

6 rest again, but that was not just -- just ordinary work. It then became

7 obstructive work by the Serb policemen.

8 Q. I want to turn now to another topic and that is to do with the

9 arming of the Serbian population. Are you aware of whether -- how, if and

10 when Serbs were armed within the municipality of Bosanska Krupa?

11 A. In 1991, that was the year when the Serbs started to arm

12 themselves in a systematic fashion through the Yugoslav People's Army.

13 Very frequently we received the information and intelligence, and they

14 were corroborated later, that there had been vehicles, Pinzgauer vehicles,

15 in the only-Serbs areas and they were bringing different types of weapons

16 and ammunition, and those weapons and ammunition were left in those

17 villages and Serb areas, one of the examples is the village of Perna on

18 the left bank of the Una river, where it was on several occasions that a

19 helicopter landed, bringing weapons to this Serb village. And then the

20 weapons were distributed to the people there. Since that was an enclave

21 on the left bank of the Una river, and a Serb enclave among the Muslims,

22 it was not possible because that's not what the administration, political

23 administration wanted. The search, it was not possible to conduct it

24 because in that case there would have been cause for another incident.

25 They were armed also through other means and channels and almost

Page 17218

1 all of them in the areas of the right bank of the Una river, almost all of

2 them had weapons.

3 Q. What happened to the weapons in the TO?

4 A. The weapons at the Territorial Defence, most of the weapons, by a

5 JNA order, they were moved to a warehouse in Svodna near Prijedor.

6 Q. To your knowledge, were any of these weapons ever returned to the

7 municipality of Bosanska Krupa?

8 A. Yes. Part of the weapons were returned, was returned, but it is

9 perhaps that 50 per cent of the weapons returned were unoperational.

10 There were parts of the weapons which were non-existent on the rifles, so

11 most of the weapons were non-operational, which means that this had been

12 done on purpose.

13 Q. And from whom did you hear that the weapons had first of all been

14 taken from the warehouse and then about the weapons that had been

15 returned?

16 A. Chief Mr. Velic, who is the chief of police, had close cooperation

17 with the Territorial Defence. The chief of Territorial Defence, Mr. Hasim

18 Djulic and, of course, with the chief of the municipality. So it was at a

19 meeting that Mr. Velic told us, informed us, that the weapons from the

20 Territorial Defence had been transferred to Svodna.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, would this be an appropriate time?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Ms. Sutherland. And thank you.

24 Mr. Saran, I suppose it has been explained to you that we wouldn't

25 have finished with your testimony today and that you would have to stay

Page 17219

1 over the weekend plus Monday, which is a United Nations holiday, and that

2 you will continue with your testimony on Tuesday, when hopefully we should

3 be in a position to conclude.

4 So I wish you a nice weekend.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The same for Mr. Cunningham and Ms. Sutherland and

7 the rest. We stand adjourned until Tuesday, 9.00 in the morning.

8 Ms. Chuqing will be circulating to you -- you have already done that?

9 Asking for your go ahead to move sittings in one week in July and some

10 other days to -- from the afternoon to the morning.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, we have absolutely no objection to that.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And you perhaps may need to consult with

13 Ms. Korner, I don't know.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: But as soon as you can confirm to Madam Chuqing your

16 addition to this suggestion, then we can move ahead. Thank you. Have a

17 nice weekend.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

20 the 10th day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.