Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17307

1 Wednesday, 11 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Registrar. Could you call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

8 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you hear me

10 in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes. I can hear you

12 in a language I can understand.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Please be seated.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, Anna Richterova, Ann Sutherland,

16 assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

18 Appearances for the Defence.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman,

20 with David Cunningham and Vesna Anic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Good morning to

22 you too.

23 So before we bring in the witness, I understand two things. First

24 of all, Mr. Ackerman, you would like to be excused this morning. I take

25 it that is so.

Page 17308

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm just feeling very poorly. I don't

2 think I can go forward.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So Mr. Sebire we will have to make

4 arrangements to have Mr. Sebire back. I don't know when.

5 Second thing: Yesterday, and this is rendering an account of what

6 happened in my chambers. Yesterday we had what was supposed to be a very

7 frank and -- frank discussion between Chamber and lawyers, both for the

8 Prosecution and the Defence, as to when the Prosecution should be in a

9 position or should be expected to finish its case, and also to give an

10 indication of roughly the time frame needed to enable this Trial Chamber

11 to finish and hand down its final decision, judgement, before the end of

12 August of next year, 2004. During the hearing, also, or during the

13 meeting also I made the Chamber available for what would be the second day

14 of the plenary, that is, Friday, the 18th of July, assuming that plenary

15 would probably be finished by then, and we also offered to sit on Friday,

16 the 1st August, when we were not scheduled to sit. We also conceded that

17 the maximum that we could go at the time was until Friday, the 29th of

18 August, considering, in particular, that I was supposed to be away from

19 The Hague and away from this Tribunal in the course of the week commencing

20 on the 21st of July until the 25th of July, both days included.

21 This was taken into account in the course of the discussion. I

22 also explained why my absence -- what was behind my expected absence from

23 The Hague, and I also invited the parties, if it was at all possible, to

24 go through the tentative schedule that we had prepared, to see whether

25 this would be -- would necessitate any amendments.

Page 17309

1 It came to my knowledge this morning that Ms. Korner, behind our

2 back, having had the opportunity to express her disagreement or discontent

3 with the fact that we were not sitting on -- between the 21st and the 25th

4 of July, and without even mentioning that she would have had a problem,

5 because these witnesses had already been scheduled to the -- the witnesses

6 scheduled for that particular week were scheduled to come over, even if we

7 are talking of more than a month and a half away from now. As I said,

8 behind our back, went to the President or contacted the President of this

9 Tribunal, complaining about this. This is something which I personally

10 deplore. I am not used to such kind of dealings by any lawyer that I have

11 ever encountered in my career, Ms. Korner, and I want to put this on

12 record.

13 In the meantime, I think most of the discussion that went on

14 between us yesterday does not hold any further, and the Prosecution will

15 be required to finish its -- will be required - I'm sorry, I am in charge

16 of this trial - will be required to finish its case by not later than

17 Friday the 1st day of August, and we will issue a Scheduling Order in due

18 course. In the meantime, you are informed that we will be sitting in the

19 week starting 21st of July, ending 25th of July, both days included. Yes,

20 Ms. Korner.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry that you feel that I didn't

22 express my discontent in the meeting, because I rather felt that I

23 expressed my discontent very strongly indeed, and we had a discussion, as

24 Your Honour may recall, about whether it was possible for the ad litem

25 Judges to sit in your absence. And no decision had been made, but you

Page 17310

1 made it very clear, as I recall, that if that was possible, that we could

2 not call the scheduled witnesses for that week.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And you didn't say that you couldn't do that.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we looked at it --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, I'm going to cut it short, because I'm

6 not used to these kind of dealings, as I said. My career has been

7 conducted as a Judge and as a lawyer on fair play and honest dealings and

8 I do not consider what you did as becoming conduct. So I deplore it in

9 public and I hope it will not happen again, and you will have until Friday

10 the 1st of August to conclude the Prosecution's case, and the case is

11 over.

12 Let's bring in the witness.

13 MS. KORNER: As Your Honour is making this a public reprimand --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I'm making it a public reprimand. No lawyer

15 should go behind the Judge's back to the President without having first

16 expressed his discontent to the Judge. Had you aired this yesterday in

17 the course of the meeting, we would have possibly discussed other matters

18 and other things and other solutions. But you didn't. Instead you chose

19 to do what you have done in the past because I know of other instances

20 where behind my back you went to complain.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I made my -- I'm sorry but you must

22 allow me to at least put this on the record. That I made my discontent

23 very clear and if Your Honour thinks about it and Your Honours' colleagues

24 during the course of that meeting, Your Honour made it clear this is what

25 you proposed to do and I could see no other option but to raise the matter

Page 17311

1 with the Presiding Judge.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, there were two things that were said

3 yesterday. First, that if these witnesses were going to be brought during

4 the week of the 21st to the 25th of July, then I would have preferred to

5 be presiding rather than be absent. That's number one. And at no time

6 did you say that it was not possible to -- not to bring these witnesses at

7 some other time. That was not even hinted at. And we're talking of a

8 month and a half. Today is the 11th. And we're talking of the 21st to

9 the 25th. And that's it. Let's bring the witness in.

10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there is one other matter, because that

11 may depend on what action we take. Your Honour says we have to finish our

12 case by the 1st of August.


14 MS. KORNER: Does that take into account the fact that clearly,

15 and we all understand the reasons why, that Mr. Ackerman may not be able

16 to -- we will be calling all the witnesses that we've listed, but that

17 Mr. Ackerman may not be able to be in a position to cross-examine?

18 Because if that's the case, and time isn't allowed for that, well, then,

19 Your Honour, that would be an unfair proceeding. And it's just not --

20 it's not me. It's those witnesses the people whom you represent --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, that is a problem that we will deal with

22 as we go along. I hope that Mr. Ackerman will not become an accomplice in

23 this, because already I was rather unhappy when all of a sudden you both

24 agreed to extend the end of the Prosecution until the last week of

25 August. I mean, that sounded to me very convenient. I'm not accusing

Page 17312

1 anyone, but I'm making it very clear that the case of the Prosecution must

2 finish by the end of this month -- of next month, 1st August.

3 Mr. Ackerman and Mr. Cunningham will make their utmost to be able to

4 cross-examine the witnesses.

5 In addition, may I suggest to you that you do indeed perhaps think

6 about opting for the procedure that I suggested to you last time,

7 particularly with regard to certain witnesses, in other words, bringing

8 forward the statement, tendering it an exhibit, asking the witness a few

9 questions on the statement, and as additional information that may arise,

10 and then we pass on to the Defence. In this manner, we could actually sit

11 four days a week, as I said yesterday, which would give Mr. Ackerman

12 Friday, Saturday, and Sunday off each week in order to be able to prepare

13 the cross-examination for the following week.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's why I raised this, because if

15 Your Honour is saying that we have to finish the case by the 1st of

16 August, then we would want to sit all the days available. That's why I'm

17 saying, realistically we can do it, but only if we sit the allotted days

18 and only if everything proceeds smoothly. We will keep our witnesses to

19 the estimates that we have given on that list, but that is -- in the sense

20 of in chief, but we are also taking into account that cross-examination

21 will follow and that there will be no days off. Your Honour, I agree this

22 is something we can see as goes along but I'm merely mentioning it at

23 this stage because if Your Honour's ruling was immovable and unchangeable,

24 despite any delays that there may have to be, well then Your Honour

25 clearly it's a matter we will have to consider.

Page 17313

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, consider it. And you have considered it in the

2 past in other cases and you got your reply. So -- and probably you will

3 get the same reply in this case.

4 So let's start with the next witness, please.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm not sure whether the

6 witness is here, because Mr. Sebire was scheduled, and I asked to bring

7 the other witness later. But the witness mentioned at the end of sitting

8 with him yesterday that he would like to request protective measures,

9 pseudonym and facial distortion --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: He had none; no?

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: He has none at this moment. He told me that he

12 is -- can we go into private session for a moment?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while.

14 [Private session]

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17314












12 Page 17314 redacted private session.














Page 17315

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning to you, sir.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You have already noticed that I did not address you

14 by your name, and that leads me straight away to informing you of what

15 perhaps is most important for you at this point in time, namely, that the

16 Prosecution asked for, on your behalf, and was granted, protective

17 measures, as far as you are concerned, one being that you will not be

18 referred to by your name but by a nom de plume, by a pseudonym, and you

19 will be referred to here by BT96, in other words, your name will not

20 appear anywhere in the records, for public purposes. And in addition, the

21 Prosecution asked for and was granted what is referred to as facial

22 distortion. In other words, the usher will explain to you, if the cameras

23 are focused on you and you are put on video mode, this is how others will

24 see you. In other words, no one should be able to see your face, and this

25 is by way of trying to do our utmost to protect your identity as you

Page 17316

1 desire, as you wish.

2 Having said that, the usher, who is standing next to you, is going

3 to give you a piece of paper. It contains the text of a solemn

4 declaration that you are required to make by our Rules. It's equivalent

5 to an oath. And basically, what is amounts to is a solemn declaration

6 that in the course of your testimony you will speak the truth, the whole

7 truth, and nothing but the truth. So I invite you to read that statement

8 aloud, that solemn declaration aloud, and that will be your undertaking

9 with this Tribunal.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a seat. Madam Richterova,

15 for the Prosecution, will be asking you a few questions, and she will then

16 be followed by Mr. Cunningham, who is appearing for Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin,

17 who is the accused in this case. Your duty, your obligation and

18 responsibility, as a witness, is to answer each question as fully and as

19 truthfully as you can, and that is irrespective of who is putting the

20 question to you. In other words, irrespective of whether it's coming from

21 the Prosecution or from the Defence.

22 Madam Richterova, please.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour. If I may ask the usher

24 to show the witness a piece of paper.

25 Examined by Ms. Richterova:

Page 17317

1 Q. Please read it for yourself and just say yes or no whether it is

2 your name.

3 A. It is.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Show it to Mr. Cunningham, please.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: This would be Exhibit P2022, under seal.


7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I need to inform Your Honours that this witness

8 had some health problems last night, and I would be -- I would like the

9 testimony to make as short as possible.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you. I was informed of that as well,

11 and I really appreciate, Madam Richterova, that you are bringing it up,

12 because I had meant to address the witness on it, and it just went

13 straight through my mind, and I forgot about it.

14 Sir, I mean, if you at any time you feel uncomfortable in that

15 chair answering questions because you feel either stressed or tired or

16 you're not feeling well, please just let us know and we'll have a break

17 and do whatever is necessary to make sure that you are okay and that you

18 are not undergoing any undue or unnecessary stressful condition, all

19 right? So any time you would like us to stop, just let us know.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I will do that. Thank you.


22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If necessary. It is not for the

23 time being.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


Page 17318

1 Q. Witness, you gave a statement to the OTP in the year 1999. Did

2 you have opportunity to read the statement yesterday?

3 A. I did.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please speak up or come closer

5 to the microphone.

6 A. I did have the opportunity to read my statement. Yes, I had the

7 opportunity to read that statement.


9 Q. Is everything correct in that statement?

10 A. Yes, it is, everything.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: I took your advice, and I would like to tender

12 the statement of this witness. I would like to tender it into evidence,

13 under P2023, and it should be under seal.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] What number are we going

15 to give this statement?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: What number?


19 JUDGE AGIUS: And for the record, we are only talking of the

20 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, to an investigator of the

21 Prosecution, not the other statement that he also gave to the authorities

22 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. I am tendering just the statement.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I imagined that to be so, but I wanted to

25 make it clear for the record, and also for Mr. Cunningham.

Page 17319

1 Is there any objection on your part, Mr. Cunningham?

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


5 Q. Sir, I want to ask you only a few questions.

6 MS. RICHTEROVA: And if the witness could be shown the Exhibit

7 P1649. It is the very last document in the Krupa binder. I can assist

8 and -- oh, you have it.

9 Q. Sir, please have a look at this document and tell me: Did you

10 have opportunity to have a look at this document and read this document?

11 A. I saw it and read it yesterday, so the answer is yes.

12 Q. After reading this document, did you reach any conclusion as who

13 is the author of this document?

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Richterova, before it becomes too late, we

18 need to redact this. The previous paragraph of -- in the transcript, that

19 is, the witness's answer needs to be redacted in its entirety. Entirety,

20 yes. The previous answer, when he says: (Redacted)

21 No, no, because he continues. And what I am saying too needs to be

22 redacted too. (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)-" so that needs to be redacted, and perhaps you

25 will invite him to answer the same question without making any references

Page 17320

1 to himself, as a result of which he could be then identified.

2 Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Excuse me for interrupting. If there's going to

4 be a redaction with respect to his answer, we would ask that the part

5 following the comma, (Redacted), would be the part that would be

6 redacted.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I'm going to ask him to answer the question

8 again.


10 JUDGE AGIUS: So let me conduct this. And now we can -- sir, you

11 were asked who the author of this document is. Am I correct in saying

12 that it was Gojko Klickovic? Did you say that, according to you, it's

13 Gojko Klickovic?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And Gojko Klickovic worked in which municipality?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosanska Krupa.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: In what capacity?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The vice-president of the Executive

19 Board of the Municipal Assembly and subsequently the president of the

20 Executive Board of the -- in the municipality. Because the vice-president

21 was killed in a traffic accident, so that the vice-president then took

22 over the duties of the president [as interpreted].

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And am I correct in saying that you knew him?

24 Answer yes or no.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 17321

1 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you.

2 Q. Before I read some parts of this document, can you tell us very

3 briefly what were the results of the election? How many seats got SDA and

4 how many seats got SDS?

5 A. The assembly of Bosanska Krupa had 92 [as interpreted] deputies.

6 The SDS, 100 per cent Serb votes in the municipality, and I think it was

7 about 21 seats. The SDA won something about 70. That is, the Bosniak

8 population constituted 73 per cent and the party won close to 90 per cent,

9 that is, four or five members were -- represented the communists and the

10 rest represented the SDA party.

11 Q. I will read you one passage from this report. It is in B/C/S

12 version first page, second paragraph, and it is the last sentence. It is

13 also first page in English version. And it says: "In the distribution of

14 power, they had no intention of even considering any other factors, and

15 everything revolved around relative number of inhabitants, according to

16 the 1981 census, which the ratio was 72 percentage Muslims, 26 percentage

17 Serbs, and 2 percentage others. However, such power-sharing with a

18 partner like the SDA did not offer Serbs sufficient guarantees for mere

19 survival."

20 After the election, did you deal -- did SDA deal with SDS with

21 respect to power distribution?

22 A. Our relations were very correct after the elections, and we

23 implemented the results of the elections in no time at all, because we did

24 not perceive the SDS as an enemy; rather, as our partner in power. And we

25 wanted to get over the transition period, to leave the Communism behind

Page 17322

1 and start the democratic processes, because we wanted to enter Europe as a

2 democratic country. And therefore, there were no problems regarding the

3 implementation, and we even gave the SDS more offices than were due them

4 on the basis of the election results. And I can illustrate this by

5 telling you which offices were assigned to them.

6 Mr. Klickovic became the vice-president of the Executive Board;

7 Mirko Orelj was assigned one of the most important offices in the

8 municipality, and that was town planning; Bozo Pilipovic was assigned the

9 office of National Defence; Mladen Drljaca became the secretary of the

10 municipality; and they were all members of the SDS, that is, its top

11 leadership, and I believe this is quite a telling example.

12 Q. Thank you. I would like to read another part from this document.

13 It is -- it starts in the bottom of page 1, and it is also the last

14 paragraph on page 1 in B/C/S.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have it on the ELMO, please.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: It will -- in English version, it will start at

17 the bottom of page 1, and it will continue to page 2. It starts: "In

18 addition to developing ..."

19 Q. Sir, please have a look at the same page as you had before, the

20 page -- the first page. Yes, this page. And it is the last paragraph.

21 And I will read slowly: "In addition to developing their own plan to

22 create the Serbian municipality of Krupa within the framework of the

23 Serbian Republic of BH, the representatives of the Serbian people in the

24 joint government were instructed to remain as long as possible within that

25 government, such as it was, and to gradually undermine that rotten

Page 17323

1 structure, which consisted of nothing but Islamic fundamentalism and to

2 buy time for another group of SDS people who were busy organising and

3 arming the Serbian people for the defence of their bare existence."

4 And then it goes on, and the last sentence says: "The work on the

5 project for partitioning Bosanska Krupa municipality and establishing the

6 Serbian municipality of Krupa began in the summer of 1991."

7 My first question with respect to this paragraph is: During the

8 year 1991 and first quarter of the year 1992, did you work -- did

9 Municipal Assembly work together? Did representatives of SDA and SDS work

10 together?

11 A. Yes. We worked together right up until the start of the conflict,

12 that is, until the moment when the municipality of Bosanska Krupa was

13 attacked. The administration was working until the very last moment. It

14 was only on the eve of the attack that Serbs quit the offices. Until that

15 time, everything was in order and worked in accordance with election

16 results.

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Pause, please. We need to redact this entire

Page 17324

1 paragraph. That's the last paragraph, last answer, given by the witness.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: And can the witness repeat this statement in

3 private session?

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And I was going to suggest that. We need to

5 redact that first, and then we go straight into private session, please.

6 [Private session]

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 17325


2 Q. Now I would like to --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we need to have an open session,

4 this last part of the statement now. So do I take it that you are

5 absolutely opposed to the claim that you saw on this document and that you

6 oppose, in other words, the claim that Islamic fundamentalism was present?

7 Please answer yes or no.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I oppose this claim.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Madam Richterova.


11 Q. In your statement, you were talking about division of the

12 municipality, about the suggestion of the SDS to divide the municipality.

13 Was the division discussed during Municipal Assembly meetings, or was it

14 discussed just during the inter-party meetings?

15 A. Only at meetings between two parties, because they were the

16 leading parties, and what they decided among themselves is what the

17 Assembly would also decide.

18 Q. And to your knowledge, was the division of municipality approved

19 by the Municipal Assembly?

20 A. The Municipal Assembly never approved this.

21 Q. I want to direct your attention to the continuation of this

22 paragraph, when it gives reasons for partitioning or division of the

23 municipality. First, we have economic reasons, and then political

24 reasons. And I want to ask you about one of these political reasons. The

25 case involving the Branko Copic monument. Branko Copic is a famous

Page 17326

1 writer. What was this case involving the Branko Copic monument? Can you

2 briefly describe what happened and why it was so important that it made

3 the SDS put it on the list of the main reasons for division of the

4 municipality?

5 A. Branko Copic was a writer who belonged to all the people. We all

6 liked him. He was born in a village near Bosanska Krupa. He was a

7 citizen of the municipality of Bosanska Krupa. He would occasionally

8 visit Bosanska Krupa, and everyone, all citizens, all inhabitants, would

9 be glad to see him there, because of his participation in partisan units,

10 his name was a well-known one in Bosanska Krupa and it was used for the

11 names of streets and schools, and we also had a centre called the Branko

12 Copic cultural centre. And a project was being prepared, Branko's

13 village. It was supposed to be a large complex. Naturally, there were

14 monuments of him. So while he was alive, he had been commemorated in

15 Bosanska Krupa. Mr. Miroslav, while he was an official for town planning

16 in the municipality, abused his position and issued an order that in a

17 small park, a bust of Branko Copic should be erected. That park is across

18 the road from the Orthodox church. I believe in acting legally, and I

19 didn't want this order, which was illegal, to be implemented. I requested

20 that it not be implemented, and I requested that this monument not be

21 erected. This problem was also dealt with in Sarajevo. Mr. Krajisnik,

22 who was at the time the president of the municipality, was also -- of the

23 Assembly, the president of the Assembly, was also aware of this. The

24 question was why have a monument applied -- it wasn't a matter of not

25 allowing a monument to be erected. It was a matter of the decision being

Page 17327

1 illegal, and this would open the way to illegal acts. If this had been

2 allowed, it would have opened the way to other illegal acts. The SDA

3 insisted on this being done. The SDS is a political party. We had

4 executive authority and we couldn't allow such an illegal decision to be

5 implemented.

6 They thought that their reputation had been tainted, that they had

7 a legitimate request, and that we acted out of spite. But it was a matter

8 of a decision which was illegal, decision for a monument to be erected. I

9 don't know why --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Any time that you feel that we should go into

11 private session, please let me know.


13 Q. Sir, you mentioned this Mr. Miroslav. What was his full name?

14 A. Miroslav Vjestica. He was an administrative official. He later

15 left that position and became a professor. He was the SDS member and he

16 became a professional member of the SDS. He was a key member in this

17 party.

18 Q. I want to ask you about one more thing from these political

19 reasons, and it is purchase of Serbian staff from the high school centre,

20 the social services centre, Municipal Assembly organs, the municipal

21 library, the media. Were the Serbs fired from their positions during the

22 period of 1991, 19 -- the first quarter of 1993? I'm sorry. The

23 first quarter of 1992.

24 A. No, the Serbs weren't fired from their positions. Some changes

25 were made of key figures at certain positions, not because certain

Page 17328

1 individuals were Serbs or weren't Serbs. But people who were part of the

2 former regime were being replaced. The people who had been appointed by

3 the Communist Party, the central committee, these people were replaced.

4 Although it was also necessary to establish a balance among the leading

5 figures, because in the former system, the Serbs had the majority. I'll

6 just provide you one example.

7 There were 23 per cent of Serbs in this municipality, and the

8 number of Serbs in the police force was over 60 per cent, and that

9 concerns leading positions -- an ordinary policeman. The chief of police

10 was a Serb, and only the fifth person in the chain of command was a

11 Muslim. So for the sake of our political authenticities, the SDA party,

12 we had to attempt to improve this ratio which was in favour of the Serbs.

13 I want to say that no one was dismissed because he was a Serb. He

14 could be dismissed from a key position, but this person would remain

15 employed, in accordance with -- or according to that person's professional

16 capacity and according to that person's knowledge.

17 Q. Sir, I have now last question with respect to this document. If

18 you could have a look on page two in B/C/S version, last paragraph. And

19 in English version, it is page 4, and the first full paragraph.

20 It says: "The negotiations began on 16 January 1992 and gave no

21 promise of a peaceful outcome, because the initial position of the Serbian

22 delegation was that we can talk about everything, but about life together

23 never again."

24 You already mentioned that there were negotiations -- did you find

25 this paragraph, sir?

Page 17329

1 A. Yes, I found the paragraph.

2 Q. There were negotiations between parties, and I understand that you

3 will probably not remember any specific dates. But what I just read, we

4 can talk about everything but not about life together," was this the

5 position of the SDS during the negotiations?

6 A. Yes. That was the SDS's position in the course of the

7 negotiations.

8 Q. Sir, I have now the last question. Did you know or did you get

9 aware of Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin in due course of 1991 or 1992?

10 A. I didn't know him personally, but I knew about him from the press

11 and from the media.

12 Q. What did you know about him? Did you see him on television?

13 A. I knew that he was an important figure in the SDS. He acted in a

14 fairly authoritative manner. I think he was also a representative -- a

15 deputy in the Assembly.

16 Q. Do you know for which -- did he work for the Autonomous Region of

17 Krajina or for Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18 A. I knew that he was from Banja Luka, and if someone is from Banja

19 Luka, then his activities relate to that area. I had heard about the

20 Autonomous Region of Krajina, but I didn't have any particular information

21 about that, especially not written information.

22 Q. You mentioned that he acted in a fairly authoritative manner.

23 Were you able to see whether people respected him or not?

24 A. Well, when I say in an authoritative manner, I mean that when he

25 spoke, others would listen to him, and it was on that basis that I came to

Page 17330

1 that conclusion, because there were other speakers to whom people would

2 not listen. He was obviously an important man, and many questions were

3 put to him. People would turn to him with regard to many issues.

4 Q. Thank you, sir.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: I've concluded my examination-in-chief.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Before I pass you on to Mr. Cunningham, who

7 will be cross-examining you, I notice in your statement that you give the

8 name of the commander of police as Lazar Kovacevic, and there is at least

9 two occasions in your statement when you refer to him by that name. Was

10 it Lazar Kovacevic or Lazar Stupar?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lazar Stupar.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So for the record, where in the statement we

14 have Lazar Kovacevic, that's a mistake.

15 Mr. Cunningham.

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: May I proceed, Your Honours?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

18 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Before I start, Judge, Your Honours, because this

19 is the first time I've dealt with a witness where we might have to go into

20 private session, I'm going to be extremely cautious. I hope I don't

21 overstep by bounds, and I trust the Court will tell me that it's time to

22 be out of private session.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Cunningham:

25 Q. Good morning --

Page 17331

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Are we going into private session straight away or

2 not yet?

3 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, not yet.

4 Q. Good morning, sir. I want to talk with you about the last area

5 that you spoke with us about, and that is the defendant, seeing the

6 defendant on TV. You personally have never met him, have you?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Okay. And we all know what your position was. But in your

9 position, as a citizen of your municipality, did you ever see him in your

10 municipality during 1990, 1991, 1992?

11 A. I don't remember having seen him.

12 Q. Okay. You would have -- do you remember reading anything in your

13 local newspaper, anything in your local media, that reported his presence

14 in your municipality, during the time period 1990-1992?

15 A. He was rarely mentioned in the local media, if you're referring to

16 the local radio. He mostly appeared in the state media.

17 Q. Okay. And it is in the state media during this time period, 1991,

18 1992, is when you saw him; am I correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And how many times do you think you saw him on TV?

21 A. Would you like a number or an estimate?

22 Q. If you can give us a number, that would be great.

23 A. More than 20 times.

24 Q. Okay. And in your testimony today -- let me back up. Neither in

25 your testimony today nor in your written statements was there any

Page 17332

1 indication that you recalled specifically what he was talking about; is

2 that correct?

3 A. You're right to the extent that I can't quote anything that he

4 said now.

5 Q. And it is based on what you saw on TV alone that you came to the

6 conclusion that he was authoritative and people respected him; correct?

7 A. It would be correct to say that that is the impression I had

8 gained on the basis of his television appearances, that in the press and

9 in the television, he would represent the SDS's policies, and I could

10 provide additional comments about this.

11 Q. I don't really want the additional comments. I was just wondering

12 what was the basis of your conclusion. So let me move to a new topic, and

13 what I'm going to do is I'm going to go back to the elections. Because in

14 your statement -- and by the way, sir, do you have your written statement

15 that you gave to the OTP available? Do you have your written statement on

16 the witness stand with you?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please.


20 Q. I want to confirm with you, Mr. Witness, that that is indeed your

21 written statement.

22 A. Just a minute. This is the English version. It's my authentic

23 statement.

24 Q. Okay. And I assume that prior to coming inside the courtroom,

25 inside this Tribunal, that you had the opportunity to review that

Page 17333

1 statement. Have you reviewed it?

2 A. Yes, I have had the opportunity of reviewing it. I immediately

3 knew which statement was concerned. I didn't review it very carefully,

4 but I did check to make sure that this is the statement that I made.

5 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions that may require you to refer

6 to your statement. I want you to feel free to refer to that statement if

7 you need to to refresh your recollection. I want to talk briefly with you

8 about the election that you discuss on page 2, and I have it on page 2 of

9 the English version. Because in your statement, you say the following:

10 "The election campaign was very aggressively fought by the SDS, with

11 extensive use of iconography and nationalist symbols."

12 Do you remember making that statement and do you see it in front

13 of you?

14 A. Yes. That's what I said.

15 Q. And if you could, very briefly, tell us what you mean by the use

16 of the nationalist symbols and the icons.

17 A. Well, I meant symbols that we weren't familiar with in the

18 socialist Yugoslavia. I assume that they had been forbidden. It was a

19 coat of arms with a two-headed eagle, and with four S's across, with four

20 letters S, a flag that we had not seen until then.

21 Q. Did the SDA have anything similar to that? Did they have any

22 flags or icons that were used in their campaigns?

23 A. The SDA was a political party that represented the majority of the

24 Muslim population, and it didn't have national symbols or religious

25 symbols. It was called the Party of Democratic Action. Its abbreviation

Page 17334

1 was SDA. This was all done in a new democratic environment, and in a way

2 that did not have national characteristics, because our nationality was

3 also a matter of dispute -- had also been a matter of dispute over the

4 course of the last 50 years, since we had all -- we had mainly been

5 reduced to the level of a religious group. We had been treated as a

6 religious group. It was only after the war that we were given the name

7 the Bosniaks, and that was our national designation.

8 Q. Let me take you now to after the election, where there are -- and

9 this is going to be my phrase. There's an allocation of positions of

10 authority between the parties. And I'm going to paraphrase you, and I

11 don't mean to try to confuse you in doing this, but basically, my

12 recollection is you said something to the effect that the parties got

13 together and certain seats were given to the SDA and certain positions

14 were given to the SDA [sic]. Am I right? That was negotiated between the

15 two parties?

16 A. That is also the political practice now. So yes, you are right.

17 The two leading parties agreed about the assignment of offices.

18 Q. The assignment of offices was something that was reached between

19 the two parties in good faith discussion, in good faith negotiations;

20 correct?

21 A. Correct. We did it in good faith and without tongue in cheek.

22 Q. Okay. In your statement, you talk about how, after the elections,

23 after people were -- the seats had been allocated, the positions of power

24 had been allocated, things were functioning well in the municipality. But

25 then you tell us -- isn't it true that there were certain things that

Page 17335

1 started to happen in the municipality that raised some tension between the

2 Serbs and the Bosniaks?

3 A. Well, if I tell you that the municipal budget was adopted, then I

4 think you will accept it as a fact showing that the administration, that

5 the government functioned. Salaries were paid out to the employed, which

6 is another sign of the correct functioning of that administration. The

7 police was organised and worked well. And if you need any more

8 information ...

9 Q. No. That's plenty, and I think we can agree that in the wake of

10 the election, everything was going smoothly in the town, but there were

11 some issues that arose between the Serbian population and the government,

12 and one of those was the Branko Copic -- dispute over the monument. Am I

13 right?

14 A. I've explained it already, and I have nothing to change --

15 Q. I'm not --

16 A. -- in my statement.

17 Q. I'm not trying to get you to change anything, but what I'm trying

18 to find out is: That was an area of at least discussion between the SDA

19 in control in the Serbian population; that was an issue?

20 A. Between the SDA and the Serb population? No. That was not an

21 issue. The SDS misused Copic and tried to use him for its own purposes.

22 Q. So it was -- but you would agree with me that it was a question

23 of -- a question between the two parties, between the SDA and the SDS;

24 correct?

25 A. No. That was an issue between the administration and the SDS.

Page 17336












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 17336 to 17342.













Page 17343

1 Q. Okay. At the same time that you were living in the municipality

2 during this time, you became aware -- you became aware of the fact that

3 there was a dispute by the Serbian members of the police department, and

4 they moved into a station in Jasenica for a week. You remember that

5 happening, do you not?

6 A. At that time I lived in the municipality, and I remember that a

7 Serb policeman split and went to Jasenica.

8 Q. And do you remember their rationale, that is, why the Serbian

9 police split and moved into Jasenica?

10 A. Is that a question that derives from my statement? If so, could

11 you tell me the page number, please.

12 Q. I don't know if it's in your statement. I'd be glad to point to

13 you where you talk about that. But I'm basically what I'm trying to do is

14 to get you to tell me what your recollection of those events are?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham --

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, sir.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we need to stop for the break here, because

18 we have overstepped by five minutes. In the meantime, the witness will

19 have more time to go through his statement again. We will reconvene at

20 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry for the delay, but we were engaged in some

24 discussions in my chambers on a draft decision, and we needed to conclude.

25 So Mr. Brdjanin is here. Mr. Cunningham.

Page 17344

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Before the break we talked briefly about the Branko Copic

3 monument, and you told us that that was an issue between the

4 administration and the SDS. And then I shifted topics to talk to you

5 about the time when Serbian police officers moved for a period of time to

6 a station in Jasenica. And you asked me if that was in your statement,

7 and over the lunch hour -- excuse me, over the break I looked at the

8 statement and didn't find a reference to it. Did you happen to find a

9 reference to it in your statement?

10 A. No, there is no mention of it in the statement.

11 Q. Okay. Then what I would like for you to do is to go on your

12 recollection, your memory of those events. You remember it happening. I

13 think you just told us that. Right?

14 A. Right. But could you give me the date, please?

15 Q. I think this happened sometime in 1991, I want to say April of

16 1991.

17 A. I know that it happened, but I cannot remember when it was

18 exactly. Because there were many things happening at the time, and I

19 suppose you do understand that, because there was a war in the

20 neighbouring Croatia, and that particular event, I can say I remember it

21 taking place, but I expect you will ask me some further questions

22 regarding the details of it.

23 Q. I'd like to. And if you remember, fine; and if you don't

24 remember, just tell me. It's okay. Do you remember, have any

25 recollection of why it is that the Serb officers left and were gone for a

Page 17345

1 week to another police station?

2 A. Well, listen, the SDS submitted to us officially, I mean to the

3 administrative bodies of the municipality, a draft, a project of the

4 separation of the splitting away of the Serb municipality, and I knew that

5 some citizens, because these kind of stories went around the town, that

6 they had set up their own assembly, that they had taken certain decisions

7 that even factories and businesses would be taken out. And they were

8 simply engaged in taking out that part of the municipality, even though

9 they continued working for the municipal agencies, even though they held

10 various offices there. But at the same time, they were engaged in

11 separating the Serb municipality. And perhaps this was part of it,

12 because the police is an important segment of life in any municipality.

13 And I suppose that was a kind of a trial run, to see if they could do it

14 and if that segment could be made operational.

15 Q. What I would like for you to do is I'd like for you to tell us, if

16 you know the answer, to tell us the answer, but I don't want you to

17 speculate as to what that answer might be. Do you know - yes or no - why

18 it is that the Serb police officers left and went to Jasenica?

19 A. Well, not specifically. I think this was to serve as a kind of a

20 trial, as a kind of a test.

21 Q. Well, you don't really know that. That's just your guess, isn't

22 it?

23 A. Well, look. We had -- but this is quite a long story, and I don't

24 know. But we had problems with the weapons of the TO, with the transfer

25 of the TO into the reserve police force, and then the distribution of the

Page 17346

1 weaponry there. So perhaps that could be one of the reasons.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think in all fairness, we have to distinguish two

3 parts of his answer. There is one part where I agree with you,

4 Mr. Cunningham, that there is an element of personal opinion,

5 speculation. There is the other part, however, which -- in which he's

6 quite categoric, in which he says the SDS submitted to them officially, I

7 mean to the administrative bodies of the municipality, a draft, a project

8 of the separation of the splitting away of the Serbian municipality. So

9 in that, he's not speculating. He's giving us a fact. So for the record,

10 we keep the two things separate.


12 Q. You would agree with me that when the Serbs -- the Serb police

13 officers left the police department and went off on their own for that

14 one-week period, do you think that that was a political decision made by

15 the SDS? Yes or no.

16 A. They quit. I don't know about the time, but that was a political

17 decision.

18 Q. Okay. And just like the dispute over Branko Copic, the monument,

19 it appeared to you, from your position, that this police department split,

20 was a political decision made by the SDS; correct?

21 A. Branko Copic has nothing to do with the police. Branko Copic, it

22 was the issue which had to do with the relations between the

23 administration and the SDS, because the decision to put up this monument

24 was unlawful, and the police was part of their idea to separate, to take

25 out the Serb municipality of Bosanska Krupa. Because you cannot partition

Page 17347

1 the municipality without solving the question of the police at the same

2 time.

3 Q. And you know from your position that the Serbian officers came

4 back and returned to the main police station in Bosanska Krupa; correct?

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Try -- first of all, we need to redact this last

9 paragraph.

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I agree, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Secondly, Witness, try -- when you are about to tell

12 us something that could reveal your identity, just ask me to go into

13 private session. Then you are free to say what you like, because no one

14 else will hear you. But if you give us information like you did, and

15 there are others listening, they will immediately know who you are, in

16 spite of the fact that we took precautions to hide your identity. All

17 right? So Madam Chuqing, please provide for the redaction.

18 Mr. Cunningham, you may proceed.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, maybe it would be best if I asked a couple

20 of questions in private session first.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go into private session for a

22 while, and you can repeat the question actually as well, so he can answer

23 it in private session

24 [Private session]

25 (Redacted)

Page 17348












12 Pages 17348 to 17356 redacted private session.














Page 17357

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 [Open session]


9 Q. I want to talk to you --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: We've in open session now.

11 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I apologise for interrupting, Your Honour.

12 Q. I want to talk to you about someone that you came to know during

13 your time in Bosanska Krupa, and that is Mr. Klickovic. And you know who

14 I'm talking about; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Some people have described him as being arrogant. Would you agree

17 with that?

18 A. He had a loud voice.

19 Q. Okay. How would you describe him?

20 A. He had a loud voice. He had a big moustache. He had a certain

21 look, a specific look.

22 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: In your time in your municipality,

23 you had several dealings with him; correct?

24 A. We very often went to Sarajevo together to carry out some projects

25 that had to do with the road infrastructure.

Page 17358

1 Q. And particularly, in the week before the attack on Bosanska Krupa,

2 you had the opportunity to meet with him on several occasions? And again,

3 I don't want you to reveal what your position was. I just want to confirm

4 with you that you had discussions and meetings with Mr. Klickovic in the

5 week before the assault on Bosanska Krupa; correct?

6 A. Yes, as he was employed in the municipality, we worked in the same

7 building, so I could speak to him every day if it was necessary. And even

8 before the attack, we would meet and speak.

9 Q. Specifically, before the attack, there were meetings between the

10 local politicians in control and the SDS; correct?

11 A. We were all local politicians and the SDS, just like the SDA, was

12 also in power.

13 Q. And one of the things that you were trying to do was trying to

14 find a peaceful resolution to the situation in your municipality?

15 A. Yes. I was trying to find that kind of a solution. Perhaps I

16 even wanted such a solution desperately, because I was aware of the danger

17 facing my municipality.

18 Q. And in trying to find that peaceful solution, you spoke with

19 Mr. Klickovic; correct?

20 A. Yes. On the whole, we spoke about dividing the municipality into

21 a Serbian part and into another part, because they persisted in requesting

22 such a partition.

23 Q. Okay. Based on your discussions with Mr. Klickovic, do you feel

24 he is the -- is he the sort of person who would tell you one thing and do

25 another thing? Is he someone you considered to be truthful and honest?

Page 17359

1 A. Before he assumed power, he had a bad background. He had been in

2 prison for certain reasons.

3 Q. Okay. But based on your dealings with him, especially in that

4 last week, do you feel he dealt with you in a truthful and honest

5 fashion?

6 A. When the knife is suspended above your neck, it's difficult for

7 you to assess such things.

8 Q. Well, looking back, do you feel like -- looking back now, do you

9 feel like he dealt with you honestly?

10 A. We watched the Croatian television broadcast, or rather, it was a

11 Montenegrin television, together in my office. We watched them showing

12 the shelling of Dubrovnik from a position that was held by the JNA, the

13 Yugoslav People's Army, and the person firing from a gun at Dubrovnik, his

14 main problem was to avoid the barrel of the gun from overheating. He

15 fired at a cultural monument. I asked Gojko what he thought about this,

16 and at that point he told me that this was a legitimate target, that in

17 fact it was war booty. I was surprised. I was nonplussed by such an

18 answer, and you can imagine the opinion I had of him at that time.

19 Q. So let me ask my question again, and if you can answer it, fine;

20 and if you can't, that's okay too. Looking back, do you consider him to

21 be an honest person, someone that you would trust? Yes or no.

22 A. I can't trust him.

23 Q. In your statements, you talk about Mr. --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

25 You didn't trust him then, and you are happy today that you never

Page 17360

1 trusted him then? Is that the substance, the essence of your answer? Did

2 you trust him at any time during these negotiations 11 years ago or 12

3 years ago?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believed in the possibility of

5 finding a solution. He was a legitimate person with whom to negotiate,

6 and I believed that it was possible to find a solution.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But did you trust him? And if you trusted him at

8 any point in time, did you continue trusting him or did you lose

9 confidence in him, trust in him?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by what I said. I said it

11 was legitimate to negotiate with him. I believed that it was possible to

12 find a solution. If he had wanted to find a solution, a solution would

13 have been found.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 MR. CUNNINGHAM: May I proceed, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. Certainly.


18 Q. In your statement, and I want you to confirm this, you say:

19 "Gojko Klickovic appeared to be the coordinator for SDS activities in the

20 area of Bosanska Krupa." Do you confirm that?

21 A. Yes, I can confirm that.

22 Q. Okay. In this case, you also gave a statement on 31 March 1998 to

23 the -- in Bihac to the people from AID. Do you remember giving a

24 statement to them?

25 A. I remember that they contacted me and that I gave a statement.

Page 17361

1 Q. And did you -- have you had the opportunity to look at that

2 statement since you have been here in the Netherlands?

3 A. Yes, yesterday.

4 Q. Okay. And I don't know if that statement has been made available

5 to him, but I'd ask that the B/C/S version be made available to the

6 witness.

7 He has it? I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, we will provide a copy.

9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I think he already has it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please check. This is the statement that was

11 given by the witness --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It could be here.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: -- on the 31st of March of 1998.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: We just provided a copy, because we didn't tender

15 that statement into evidence.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the understanding, that it's not been

17 tendered, no.

18 Yes, Mr. Cunningham.

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. And again, I'm going to just ask you to confirm a couple of

21 statements that are in here. In the English language version of this, and

22 I realise it's probably no help to you, but on page 2, very near the

23 bottom, is this statement, and this is given, just so that you understand

24 the context of this statement, in the AID statement you have just

25 described how Mr. Martic was released, that you are driving back to

Page 17362

1 Bosanska Krupa, and you're talking about how, on the way back to Bosanska

2 Krupa, you and Mr. Klickovic and another gentleman are telling the Serbs

3 at the checkpoints to go home; there's no need to be out. And in the

4 statement, you ask -- it says as follows: "I asked Klickovic how many

5 soldiers do you have here? He answered: Around 5.000. Then I could see

6 for myself that Klickovic was very influential and he has command over

7 armed men."

8 Did you see that portion in your statement?

9 A. Yes, I've seen it.

10 Q. And I apologise for interrupting. And you still confirm that

11 today; correct?

12 A. Yes, I stand by this claim.

13 Q. And on the very next page, about midway down the page on page 3 in

14 the English version is the following passage, and I'm going to read it

15 slow so that it can be translated. You say: "It can definitely be said

16 that the key people of the Bosanska Krupa SDS, the be-all and end-all of

17 all activities that took place, then and later, were Miroslav Vjestica and

18 Gojko Klickovic, as organisers and order-issuing authorities, they bear

19 more responsibility than anyone else."

20 Do you still stand by that position?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. There's one final area that I want to go to, and it requires us to

23 go back to --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Private session?

25 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, Your Honour. I'd just go back to Exhibit

Page 17363

1 1649. That is the exhibit that you read for the first time yesterday. To

2 refresh your recollection it is the document that you believe was authored

3 by Mr. Klickovic. And I want to take you on the -- to the English version

4 on page 4. And I apologise for not being able to point you to the exact

5 passage, but it is a paragraph that begins with the phrase: "The

6 negotiations began on 16 January 1992 and gave no promise of a peaceful

7 outcome." That's the very first sentence in the paragraph. I don't know

8 if --

9 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry. In B/C/S, it is page 2, last

10 paragraph.


12 Q. I would like for you to go --

13 A. Fine.

14 Q. I would like for you to go down about halfway through the

15 paragraph, and I'm going to read slow to see if you can find this passage:

16 "This was the time when the Serbian people were saved and the Serbian

17 territory preserved. This is a report on their work and the protagonists

18 were Serbs." Do you see where that is?

19 A. I do

20 Q. "Members of the SDS. So here we will mention just a few of

21 them." And what follows is one, two, three, four, five, six people who

22 are mentioned specifically; correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Nowhere in those lists of six people do we see the defendant's

25 name, do we, sir?

Page 17364

1 A. The authors always forget to put their names in.

2 Q. Well, no. Here's my question: You told us that the -- you

3 believed that the author was Mr. Klickovic; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. My question to you is: We don't see Mr. Brdjanin's name there at

6 all, do we?

7 A. No, we don't.

8 Q. I'd like you to go to the next page -- excuse me.

9 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Ms. Richterova, if you can help me. I'm talking

10 about now page 5 of the English version, the very first paragraph at the

11 top, the very last sentence. So if -- with the Court's permission, she

12 could help the witness get situated.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can you tell me how the paragraph starts?

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: If you go to page 5 of the English version, it is

15 the first -- it starts: "Of the P/illegible area to the right bank of the

16 Una."

17 JUDGE AGIUS: To help you, Ms. Richterova, the next paragraph

18 starts: "The primary and basic role of the War Presidency."

19 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Your Honour. That was the easier way

20 to do it.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: It should be page 4 in B/C/S, first full

22 paragraph, somewhere in the middle.

23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: If you can find the paragraph that begins: "The

24 primary and basic role," Mr. Witness. What I'm going to ask you to do is

25 find that and then look up one sentence.

Page 17365

1 Q. Have you found that sentence?

2 A. I have page 4, and the first paragraph says: "The War Presidency

3 made an assessment of the situation and took the only proper, correct

4 decision."

5 Q. Look up one more paragraph. Go up one paragraph and then go up

6 one more sentence, so that the very last sentence in -- so that the very

7 last sentence in the paragraph I'm asking you to read says: "This

8 presidency took all crucial military and civilian decisions." Do you see

9 that sentence?

10 A. "The primary and basic task of the War Presidency was to liberate

11 all areas on the right bank of the Una, making --"

12 Q. Let me stop you there, and I don't do that to be disrespectful to

13 you. But do you see that the very sentence before that, up one

14 paragraph -- can you find that sentence and read it? It starts with the

15 words: "This War Presidency" or "The War Presidency." Excuse me. It

16 starts out with simply: "This presidency ..."

17 A. Right. Just go on asking. I'm sure it exists.

18 Q. Okay. And you would agree with me that Klickovic was the sort of

19 person that could make those sorts of decisions, was he?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: May I have just a minute, Your Honour? Because I

22 think I'm almost done. That's all I have, Your Honour. I have no further

23 questions.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.

25 Madam Richterova, is there re-examination?

Page 17366

1 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, thank you, Your Honour. There is no

2 re-examination.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Judge Janu?

4 Sir, Judge Janu from the Czech Republic has got a few questions

5 for you.

6 Questioned by the Court:

7 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Witness, when describing your experience from

8 media with Mr. Brdjanin, you said few, few things. You said that you saw

9 him at least 20 times on television. You said that he acted

10 authoritatively, or in authoritative manner. You also said that he was

11 obviously an important man. And you also said that people would turn to

12 him with regard to many issues. And you, when asked by the Defence

13 counsel, you said that you don't remember what he said, any quotes. My

14 question is: Can you recall what was the spirit of his presentation, I

15 mean the way how he presented his arguments?

16 A. If you mean the overall impression, I've already said it when I

17 said that he had this authoritative approach. And if you mean the

18 substance of his speeches, well, that was the SDS policy, which I could

19 recognise.

20 JUDGE JANU: Yes. Thank you. And would you classify him, or the

21 way he speaks, as -- would you classify him as a powerful speaker,

22 powerful orator, who can catch the people's attention easily?

23 A. By all means, because I don't know which rank he held in the SDS,

24 but I know that he could pull a lot of weight.

25 JUDGE JANU: And my second area of questioning is concerning the

Page 17367

1 communistic past of your country. Am I right that you were not a member

2 of the Communist Party, of the League of Communists?

3 A. No, you're not right. I was a member of the League of Communists

4 of Yugoslavia.

5 JUDGE JANU: And my second question in this field: In your

6 opinion, did the political system during the era of Marshal Tito, and

7 later on, until 1990, display the basic democratic features?

8 A. It tried to rectify the situation, largely under the influence of

9 Slovenian -- of the Slovenian policies.

10 JUDGE JANU: No, I don't think you caught my point. I was asking

11 if it's your opinion that the previous system, political system, displayed

12 a basic democratic features.

13 A. It was a single-party system, but within it, one could live. It

14 wasn't repressive.

15 JUDGE JANU: In your opinion, did this system contribute to the

16 atrocities and the situation, whole situation in your country after 1990?

17 A. Well, yes, because it had failed it resolve some fundamental

18 issues concerning the relations between and among the republics.

19 JUDGE JANU: That's only what you can think about?

20 A. I think that this -- that is all that is needed at this point,

21 because if we go into it, then it will take some time to tell the whole

22 story. Then I will have to speak from the point of view of the people

23 that I belonged to and accuse that system of the victims of this war.

24 JUDGE JANU: Yes, thank you. That's all.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I have just one simple question to you. You've told

Page 17368

1 us, and you've repeated, that you actually, during the time of 1992,

2 1991/1992, that you saw the accused Brdjanin on TV some -- more than 20

3 times. Compared to other politicians of the same standing that he had,

4 would you say that was average, less, than the appearances of others, or

5 more? How did it feature?

6 A. Well, Krajisnik appeared more often. That is certain. Because he

7 was the president of the Assembly. But Mr. Brdjanin was also frequently

8 present in the public.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you. That brings us to the end of

10 your testimony in this case. On behalf of Judge Janu, Judge Taya, myself,

11 and also on behalf of the Tribunal in general, I should like to thank you

12 for having come over to give evidence. You will be attended to in order

13 that you can return to your country of residence. And before you leave

14 this courtroom, may I, on behalf of everyone, wish you a safe journey back

15 home. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, your presence here, I would assume,

18 tells us that the next witness is already in line.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's why my presence is here, but the witness

20 is not ready, Your Honour, because of developments this morning.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I expected it. Will he be ready, say --

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: He has a number of statements to read. He came

23 over at 10.30 this morning, as soon as I became aware of the developments.

24 So I contacted the VWU to have him brought here. I asked to be sent an

25 e-mail to the courtroom when he had finished reading his statements,

Page 17369

1 because there is a number of things I need to clarify with him. So I

2 will need at least half an hour, three quarters of an hour to speak with

3 him.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not a problem at all.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: But at this moment I haven't been advised that

6 he's actually finished reading his statements.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: We will be in our -- I think we can safely break

8 here now. We will be in our chambers, respective chambers. Will you let

9 us know through the registrar, of course.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, immediately.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

12 So we will resume when we are in a position to resume.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland. I understand you have

16 encountered a problem.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, and I apologise for keeping all

18 the parties waiting, but I was advised at 1.00 that the witness had just

19 finished reading his statements. And even if I was to go upstairs and

20 speak to the witness immediately, I would need a certain amounts of time

21 to explain the court procedures and the protective measures involved, and

22 I also needed to clarify one or two matters. So that would have taken at

23 least half an hour to do that. So I don't think we should -- that there's

24 any chance starting --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That will take us beyond our time limit in any case.

Page 17370

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Exactly, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So there is no problem this time, because perfectly

3 I understand that there is a problem and that there's no sense in trying

4 to approach it in any other manner. However, may I ask you: When did the

5 witness arrive here in The Hague?

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: He arrived not yesterday but the day before, and

7 had I -- had I known what was going to develop this morning, then I could

8 have spoken to the witness or brought the witness over yesterday

9 afternoon.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The Chamber accepts that explanation. So we will

11 need to adjourn today.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: We are trying to bring the witnesses forward;

13 however --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. This is what I was going to suggest, that

15 all that is happening now was unexpected, could not have been anticipated,

16 and one can understand, of course, that problems can arise. On the other

17 hand, we are going to adopt the system that we adopted today. Perhaps you

18 should keep in mind - when I say you, it's the whole team - two things in

19 particular, two objectives. Number one is: To try and avoid as much as

20 possible for the Tribunal to have witnesses stay here over the weekend

21 unnecessarily, if that can be avoided, because it involves the Tribunal in

22 additional expenses which I'm sure can be averted, can be avoided.

23 And number two is: As you go along, try to liaise as much as

24 possible with the Defence so that they are put in a position where they

25 can catch up with the rhythm that we will be adopting.

Page 17371

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, two things. Firstly, in relation to

2 trying to finish the witnesses as quickly as we can, with this next

3 witness, BT56, I intend taking him through -- leading him through his

4 evidence, because this is a very important witness in that it goes

5 directly to the torture counts in the indictment. And so I do not propose

6 tendering his statement at all, and that is in relation to the next

7 witness only, that I can speak of.

8 The other matter was: We were going to try and move all the

9 witnesses up so that we do not have any lag in trial time in the

10 courtroom.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It can be planned.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: That may mean the witnesses may be here over the

13 weekend, you know, if we don't get to their testimony. We're trying to

14 bring up the witness that is required for cross-examination, the one

15 that's scheduled at the moment for next Monday. We were trying to bring

16 him here for this Friday, but that's not possible. I've been advised by

17 the VWU.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand that, Ms. Sutherland. I do not expect

19 miracles. On the other hand, what I can tell you is this: That I could

20 work out myself a schedule that I could impose, but I neither would like

21 or should like to impose a schedule. I much rather prefer that you have a

22 time limit and that you work within the parameters of that time limit

23 without feeling any further restrictions or limitations than that. But on

24 the other hand, if you do the same exercise that I have done, looking at

25 the statements and distinguishing which witnesses can be just faced with

Page 17372

1 the statement and which others need to be examined in more detail, believe

2 me, it's quite possible to schedule the arrival of witnesses with any

3 lapse of a weekend in between, with the exception of one witness, with the

4 exception of one witness.

5 And just for the record, the two expert witnesses that you have,

6 without the need of us mentioning the names, you will -- the Chamber will

7 exercise its discretion and limit the time that they will spend in this

8 courtroom, both one and the other. And for that purpose, we will be

9 limiting the time which you will have, as Prosecution, for the

10 examination-in-chief. And the rest of the time will be devoted to the

11 cross-examination. The reason for that is that there is the statement, or

12 the report, of the expert witness in each case, in either case, and in

13 both cases they are thorough reports. So I think we'll need to adjourn

14 for today.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, there's just one other matter, in

16 relation to the scheduling and finishing the Prosecution case by the 1st

17 of August. One of the experts cannot testify before the 1st of August.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not my problem, Ms. Sutherland. It's not my

19 problem. I find it difficult to find how this person can find it

20 impossible to come here for one day between now and the 1st day of August.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, apparently, I've been advised that

22 she has already booked a holiday from mid-July and --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Too bad.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: And her statement has yet to be --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Too bad, Ms. Sutherland. Too bad. If you want her,

Page 17373

1 bring her over. It's very easy for someone to miss a week or two and have

2 to come here and do work and testify. It's no problem. So --

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may I --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: If you find yourself in some other kind of

5 difficulty, do come back to me, but certainly not that she will be

6 inconvenienced if she comes over because she has booked her holiday. The

7 case has to be over as far as the Prosecution is concerned by the 1st of

8 August.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can I add that her statement has yet

10 to be finalised therefore it hasn't yet been disclosed --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not my problem. You've had a year and a half

12 to commission the expert on propaganda to finalise the statement and bring

13 it forward. And now you have only got until the 1st of August.

14 We stand adjourned. Tomorrow at 9.00. If possible, please liaise

15 with the Defence to see whether Mr. Sebire is coming over tomorrow or not.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.25 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

19 June 2003, at 9.00 a.m.