Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17884

1 Friday, 20 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go through the usual preliminaries and the

7 extraordinary preliminary that I would expect one thing after the other.

8 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-99-36-T, the

10 Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam.

12 Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me in a language that you can

13 understand?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, yes, I can.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take your seat.

16 Appearances for the Prosecution?

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good morning, Your Honours. Anna Richterova,

18 assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you both.

20 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning, Your Honour, David Cunningham.

22 Today I'm assisted by Aleksandar Vujic and we are legally authorised by

23 the American Government to go forward. So we are here in a representative

24 capacity for the accused.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I am pleased to hear that, Mr. Cunningham, and I am

Page 17885

1 sure that Mr. Brdjanin is even more pleased than we are. I thank you and

2 good morning to you both.

3 So preliminary number 1. The motion that you filed the day before

4 yesterday, Mr. Cunningham - when I say "you," it's Mr. Ackerman - for

5 these proceedings to be adjourned, do I take it that the substance of that

6 motion is now moot?

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: It is moot, Judge. We are ready to go forward.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 So, Registrar, please take note of that. That motion does not need

10 to be decided any longer. It's being declared moot.

11 Number 2, before we can proceed with this witness, Mr. Cunningham,

12 we need to hand down a decision on the protective measures that were asked

13 for him by the Prosecution. What is being asked with regard to this

14 witness, who is BT97 -- correct me if I am wrong, Madam Richterova,

15 please.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes you are right. It's BT97.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The request is that he testifies with a

18 pseudonym and distortion of image and voice. Is that acceptable to you,

19 Mr. Ackerman -- Mr. Cunningham?

20 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honours, we do not have any objection to the

21 protective measures.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: While we are at it, let's deal with the next

23 witness, BT94. What is being asked is only facial distortion, Madam

24 Richterova, can you or Ms. Gustin.


Page 17886

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Facial distortion, no?

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Facial distortion and pseudonym. Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: And pseudonym.

4 Is that agreeable?

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honours, we have no objection to that as

6 well.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So both motions are being granted and

8 this is being decided orally for the time being. The decision, the

9 written decision, will be handed down during the break. There are some

10 changes that need to be made that I notice here.

11 So good morning to you, sir.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that you can hear what I am saying in a

14 language that you can understand, in other words, that you are receiving

15 proper interpretation?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. So we can proceed. You're here to

18 give evidence, I'm sure you know that, and you're going to give evidence

19 in the trial which has been instituted against Radoslav Brdjanin. Before

20 you do so, you are required by our rules to make a solemn declaration

21 equivalent to an oath that in the course of your testimony, you will be

22 speaking the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The text

23 is contained in a document which the usher, Madam Usher, is going to hand

24 to you now. What I ask you to do is to stand up, take that text in your

25 hand, read it out loud and that will be your undertaking with this

Page 17887

1 Tribunal that as stated you will be speaking the truth and nothing but the

2 truth.

3 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, you have to turn off your mike.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Please take a chair. I suppose you

9 are following what I was saying before. When I mentioned "BT97," that's

10 you. You are not going to be referred to by your name here but only by a

11 number, by a pseudonym, and that's in order to protect your identity, as

12 requested by you. In addition, you have asked for voice and face

13 distortion and we have also granted those protective measures.

14 If, usher, please, could you assist the witness?

15 If you look at your monitor in front of you, on the video mode,

16 and the -- you will see how others are going to see you. Something moving

17 behind a lot of squares, cubes, that's you. But that's how others are

18 going to see you. And that's visual distortion. Any person following

19 these proceedings also will not be able to hear your own voice. They will

20 hear another voice and that's what we call voice distortion and that's

21 again to protect your identity, so that you can put your mind at rest that

22 your testimony will be heard by others but there is nothing that should

23 give away your identity.

24 Having said this, I need to give you some advice, because

25 sometimes who messes it up and creates problems is the witness himself.

Page 17888

1 In the course of the testimony you will be asked questions, and there may

2 be a time when, by answering that question, you need to give information

3 about yourself which would identify you. For example, if I ask you which

4 street did you live in and in which town? Obviously, if you answer that

5 question, everyone -- it will be easy for many people to identify you as

6 today's witness. So we will take all precautions ourselves and I can

7 assure you that both Madam Richterova and Mr. Cunningham will be doing

8 their utmost to ask me to go into private session when these questions are

9 being put and answered so that when we are in private session, no one can

10 follow the proceedings.

11 In open session, they can hear what you are saying through someone

12 else's voice, but in private session no one knows what you are saying. So

13 then you are at liberty to give the information because no one will know

14 it, except the people inside this room. But we all have a right to know

15 that.

16 If we are not in private session, take care not to say anything

17 that may reveal your identity. That's all I ask you. Having said that, I

18 think the last thing I need to tell you is that you will first be asked a

19 series of questions by Madam Richterova; and secondly, you will then be

20 cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman -- by Mr. Cunningham.

21 I take it, Ms. -- Madam Richterova, that you are tendering the

22 witness's statement in evidence as an exhibit?

23 MS. RICHTEROVA: I can do it -- I can do it in due course because

24 I think it's important that we hear everything but it depends whether we

25 will be able to go through all these things with the witness.

Page 17889

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I thought we had agreed yesterday that it

2 will be admitted under Rule 92 bis and then --

3 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour, it will be, but we have to wait

4 for the translation. And it --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Go ahead. Go ahead.

6 Madam -- he's all yours. You may start questioning him.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Examined by Ms. Richterova:

9 Q. Sir, I would like to show you a piece of paper on which you will

10 see your name and please state whether yes or not it is your name.

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: This will be Exhibit P2122 under seal.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: 2122 under seal.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we go to private session for a little while?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you.

17 We will go into private session now, please.

18 [Private session]

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17890












12 Pages 17890 redacted private session.














Page 17891

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 [Open session]


9 Q. Sir, first I would like you to direct your attention to the events

10 which happened on 11th of June, 1992, and events which followed that

11 date. Did you observe anything unusual happening in the town on 11th of

12 June, 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us what it was.

15 A. I noticed that lamps in the street were on across the River

16 Vrbanja, and in the morning I saw anti-tank metal mines in front of the

17 bridge.

18 Q. How many of these anti-tank mines did you see?

19 A. Four of them.

20 Q. What was your reaction? Where did you go?

21 A. I went to where my inhabitants were and they sent me as a reserve

22 police force member to report this to the police station.

23 Q. Did you go to the police station?

24 A. Yes, I did go to the police station.

25 Q. Did you observe anything unusual on your way to the police

Page 17892

1 station?

2 A. Yes. I noticed armed soldiers in camouflage uniforms.

3 Q. Apart from these armed soldiers, did you observe that someone

4 would be maltreated?

5 A. Yes. In front of the building where Ilija lived [redacted]

6 [redacted], I noticed a large group of soldiers who were already beating

7 Ilija [redacted].

8 Q. After seeing this maltreatment, did you go to police station?

9 A. Yes. I did later. I was passing by.

10 Q. Whom did you meet in the police station?

11 A. At the entrance, or rather outside the police, I noticed armed

12 soldiers, two or three armoured vehicles. There was a soldier with a

13 radio station on his back standing at the entrance to the police station.

14 He was on his way out. Inside I met Jovan, an active service police

15 officer, I didn't know his last name, and Anto Pranjic who was the

16 commander of that police unit. Neither of them were carrying weapons.

17 Q. You mentioned that you saw armed soldiers in front of the police

18 station. Can you describe these soldiers. Did you first -- first, did

19 you know them maybe by sight and second, what did they wear?

20 A. Those I knew were from Territorial Defence. They were not wearing

21 any weapons at that moment and those who were carrying weapons, I did not

22 know.

23 Q. Can you describe the uniforms which they wore?

24 A. Camouflage uniforms, green and black.

25 Q. Did they wear any hat?

Page 17893

1 A. Yes. They were wearing hard hats or helmets, red.

2 Q. We heard "red." What was red on these hats or --

3 A. Red berets.

4 Q. You also mentioned Anto Pranjic. Can you tell us what was his

5 ethnicity.

6 A. He was a Catholic.

7 Q. And those soldiers and members of TO, did you know what ethnicity

8 they were?

9 A. Serbs, orthodox.

10 Q. Did you report that you saw anti-tank mines?

11 A. Yes. I did report that to Jovan and to Anto Pranjic.

12 Q. And what was their reaction?

13 A. They looked surprised. They couldn't believe what I was telling

14 them. Jovan was the duty officer and he said that he needed to go over to

15 the TO to check what was happening.

16 Q. Did you return back to the bridge?

17 A. Yes, I did, accompanied by Anto Pranjic.

18 Q. Did Anto see as well these mines?

19 A. Yes, he did. He saw them too.

20 Q. After you returned to the bridge, what did you do?

21 A. Anto left me there to watch the mines until he called some people

22 over who could actually remove those mines.

23 Q. How long did you stay at the bridge?

24 A. I stayed for about 20 minutes, then I had to go back after that.

25 Q. Where did you go?

Page 17894

1 A. I went towards the centre of Kotor.

2 Q. And what was happening there?

3 A. I told my neighbours there that mines had been noticed and that we

4 didn't know what to do.

5 Q. Did you also inform them about the soldiers you saw in the town?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was decided? What did you do after this -- after you told

8 them what happened?

9 A. The decision was for the women and children to go to the woods,

10 and it was decided that we would at some point follow them to provide

11 security for the group.

12 Q. Did you have any weapon?

13 A. Yes. I got it from the reserve police unit. It was a

14 semi-automatic rifle.

15 Q. The other men who gathered at that point, did they have some

16 weapons as well?

17 A. They did, about 18 pistols but most of the weapons were actually

18 hunting rifles.

19 Q. Did you follow the women to the woods?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How long did you stay in the woods?

22 A. About seven days.

23 Q. During this stay, during the time you stayed in the woods, were

24 there any negotiations between your people in the woods and some Kotor

25 Varos representatives?

Page 17895

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us something more about these negotiations? Who was

3 on your side? Who did -- I will repeat my question. Who represented --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, who represented your side.


6 Q. Who represented your side and who represented the other side?

7 A. Our side was represented by Sadik Fific, Matos Matosevik, Sakib

8 Debic, and Huso Huseinovic. The other side was represented by Savo Tepic

9 and Slobodan Dubocanin.

10 Q. What did you learn about these negotiations? What was the result

11 of these negotiations?

12 A. They told us to lay down our weapons and be loyal citizens of

13 Republika Srpska. They said that I, as a reserve police officer, should

14 go back to my job as reserve police officer. They said that if I refused

15 to go back, I would be made to hand my weapon over.

16 Q. Did you surrender your weapon?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. What about the other men who had weapons? Did they surrender

19 their weapons as well?

20 A. Yes. They did too.

21 Q. Do you know whether your houses were searched?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were they searched in your presence or when you were in the woods?

24 A. While we were still in the woods.

25 Q. What were you are told about these searches?

Page 17896

1 A. They said that everything had been searched through and that

2 everything was okay, that we need not have any fear and that we could go

3 back to our homes.

4 Q. And as you stated, you returned to your houses after seven days

5 spent in the woods; is it correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. After you returned to your houses, were there some other contacts

8 with Serb soldiers and I am referring to the time after you returned to

9 your houses and the date 25th of June.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us when it was.

12 A. The same day we returned to our homes.

13 Q. And what happened?

14 A. They sent over messengers, Serb soldiers, who were going from

15 house to house telling us to assemble at a junction where the railway line

16 was crossing the road leading to the centre of town.

17 Q. Who did you meet at the crossroad?

18 A. I met Slobodan Dubocanin.

19 Q. Did you know Slobodan Dubocanin from before?

20 A. No, not from before. He just said his name.

21 Q. Did you know where he was from?

22 A. He did say himself that he was from Kotor Varos but that he didn't

23 live there. He said he resided in Banja Luka.

24 Q. Who else was present at the crossroad? Only Dubocanin or were

25 there some other people?

Page 17897

1 A. There were other people there too. Zoran Tesic, outside Nedjo

2 Djukic's house pointing a rifle at us, and there were a number of other

3 soldiers standing by and around us.

4 Q. Can you describe for us these other soldiers. What did they wear?

5 A. All of them were wearing camouflage uniforms and weapons,

6 automatic and semi-automatic rifles.

7 Q. Did they wear any hats?

8 A. Yes. Helmets, different kinds of hats.

9 Q. Did Dubocanin ever mention to you the name of his unit?

10 A. No, he didn't. But we called them specials because they wore

11 those caps.

12 Q. What do you understand under the word "specialist"? What was

13 their task or what did you know about them?

14 A. Well, what they told us themselves, that they were better, better

15 prepared and better trained than other units and soldiers. Probably they

16 had a headquarters somewhere.

17 Q. Did Dubocanin tell you anything during this gathering?

18 A. Yes. He separated the men from the women and children, and once

19 he had had the men counted, we were about 85, he said that the group was

20 never to grow or to diminish. He said that we would be safe and free to

21 go back to our homes. He said our lives were more valuable than houses or

22 buildings. He said that we should try to keep several families together

23 in just one house, if it proved possible.

24 Q. After this meeting with Dubocanin, did anything else happen? Was

25 there any shooting, any searches?

Page 17898

1 A. Units were deployed at checkpoints manned by Serb soldiers

2 providing security for the citizens of Kotor.

3 Q. Now I would like to direct your attention to the events of 25th of

4 June. Can you tell us what happened on 25th of June in the morning?

5 A. In the morning, soldiers rounded us up and took us to Luka

6 Marcinkovic's house first.

7 Q. Sir, you mentioned "soldiers rounded us up." Who were these

8 soldiers?

9 A. Those were Serbs, Serb soldiers.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And where was he and the others that were rounded

11 up?


13 Q. Sir, you heard the Judge's question. Where was you at the moment

14 when the soldiers entered the village?

15 A. I was in my house.

16 Q. And these soldiers, did they come to your houses and order you to

17 gather at one point?

18 A. Yes, they did. They simply drove us out of the houses. I didn't

19 even have time to tie up my shoe laces and I had to keep my hands behind

20 my neck.

21 Q. You mentioned Serb soldiers. Were they the same soldiers which

22 were present when Dubocanin met you or were they different soldiers?

23 A. They were both the same soldiers but new, different soldiers were

24 there too. I knew one of them personally. I didn't know his name but I

25 knew that he came from Grabovice.

Page 17899

1 Q. You said that you were in your house. Who else was taken from

2 your house?

3 A. I was taken, my father, my brother, my brother-in-law.

4 Q. Did -- your mother was present at the time when you were taken

5 out?

6 A. Yes. And they brought them later.

7 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand. You said, "and they brought them

8 later." Whom did you mean "they"?

9 A. My mother, my wife, my brother's wife, my sister and the children.

10 Q. Did your mother ask where were you taken?

11 A. Yes, she did.

12 Q. Do you know what was the reply?

13 A. He said, I could blow their brains out on the spot if you ask this

14 again.

15 Q. You said that you were taken to one place, to a house of -- can

16 you please repeat the name of the person of -- who was the owner of that

17 house?

18 A. Luka Marcinkovic.

19 Q. How long did you stay in this house?

20 A. Until they rounded up all the citizens of Kotor.

21 Q. Were there -- in this house, were there only men or also women

22 with children?

23 A. Only men.

24 Q. Can you tell us how many approximately how many men were there in

25 this house?

Page 17900

1 A. At that time, about 50.

2 Q. After that, where were you taken? Or did you stay in the house or

3 were you taken somewhere else?

4 A. Dusko Vujicic arrived; Dragan Bojic was with him. We were lined

5 up outside the house in rows of four and then we were taken outside Rasim

6 Tatar's house.

7 Q. Sir, did you know Dusko Vujicic and Dragan Bojic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was Dusko Vujicic?

10 A. He was an active service police officer at the Kotor Varos police

11 station.

12 Q. At the time when he round you up -- out, did he wear any uniform?

13 A. Yes. Blue and green, camouflage.

14 Q. Who was Dragan Bojic?

15 A. He was the secretary of the Rad company.

16 Q. And did this person wear any uniform?

17 A. Yes, blue.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Madam Richterova.

19 Is Dusko Vujicic still alive to your knowledge?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so, yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware of his whereabouts? Where does he

22 live? In which town?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say for sure, but I believe

24 he's still in Kotor Varos.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Do you know what he's doing in Kotor

Page 17901

1 Varos?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps he's retired now. Police

3 officers usually retire earlier than other people. I really don't know.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Richterova, please.


6 Q. Sir, when you were accompanied or escorted by these two men, were

7 you ordered to give them anything from your possession?

8 A. Yes. We had to hand over our personal documents, wallets,

9 watches, belts, shoe laces.

10 Q. Were you accompanied only by these two men or were there some

11 other soldiers or policemen?

12 A. There were many other soldiers there.

13 Q. And where were you taken?

14 A. We were taken -- while we were standing outside Rasim's house, we

15 handed over all of our belongings and then four of us were singled out

16 from the group, they said that a Serb had been killed and that we should

17 confess who it was that had killed the Serb. They said that each time a

18 Serb was killed, they should kill five of us in retaliation.

19 Q. You were in the group of these four?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Richterova, if you intend to ask the witness

22 to mention the names of the components of this group, we go into private

23 session.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go into private session, please, for a

Page 17902

1 while.

2 [Private session]

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 [Open session]


20 Q. You said that you were asked who killed --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Okay. Go ahead now.


23 Q. You were asked who killed the Serb. Were there some other

24 questions? Did they maltreat you?

25 A. Not at that time. They brought the others into Rasim Tatar's

Page 17903

1 house. They brought us inside too but at that moment we were a separate

2 group. Mujo Zeher was singled out and then when he came back he was

3 crying and his clothes had been torn to pieces.

4 Q. How long did you stay in Rasim Tatar's house?

5 A. We stayed for about an hour. It took maybe not a long time but I

6 think we stayed there for about an hour.

7 Q. Can you tell us what was the age range of people who were kept

8 together with you?

9 A. There were people aged 15 and the other end of the range was

10 people aged about 60.

11 Q. At this stage, was anyone released?

12 A. Yes. Tatar, Eno, who was underage; Kemo Zeher; and Goran Terzic.

13 Q. Sir, after one hour spending in this house, where were you taken

14 then?

15 A. We were then taken to Stipe Zebic's house -- Stipo Zeba's house in

16 the direction of the village of Ravne.

17 Q. How many of you were in the column?

18 A. At that point, there were about 85 of us.

19 Q. Where in the house or in the property of Stipo Zeba were you

20 taken?

21 A. At first, they left us between the garage and the house itself and

22 we had to keep our heads down and our hands above our heads. They beat us

23 there and mistreated us.

24 Q. These soldiers, did they wear red berets as well as you described

25 before?

Page 17904

1 A. Yes. There were some among them wearing red berets but some were

2 not wearing red berets.

3 Q. Those who didn't wear red berets, what type of hats did they wear?

4 A. They wore helmets, some even wore nothing.

5 Q. You mentioned that you were beaten while in front of the house.

6 Did you know whether any women or children were present in the house or in

7 the surrounding area of this house?

8 A. Yes. There were some women in the garage with children.

9 Q. Do you know what happened to these people?

10 A. I don't know. They were in the garage and we were in front and to

11 the side of the garage.

12 Q. While you were in front of the Stipo Zeba's house, was anyone

13 separated?

14 A. Yes. Since they kept asking who killed the Serb and no one

15 responded, they said we should raise our heads. They even asked for

16 volunteers, they asked for someone to kill. No one responded and we were

17 ordered to raise our heads.

18 Q. After you raised your heads, what happened?

19 A. They singled out five persons.

20 Q. Can you tell us their names?

21 A. Esad Muminovic, Seval Djuvelek, Samir Avdic, Mevludin Vilic. As

22 his wife had just had a baby, his father asked that Mevludin should

23 remain, that he would take her [as interpreted] place and then he said

24 that he should be the fifth person.

25 Q. Can you tell us the name of his father?

Page 17905

1 A. Resid Vilic.

2 Q. Where were these people taken?

3 A. At the railway station, the street in front of us, they were taken

4 across the railway tracks behind this transport vehicle.

5 Q. After they were taken behind this transport vehicle, did you hear

6 anything?

7 A. Yes. We heard an order being given, a burst of fire, and we heard

8 someone saying that they should be sure not to miss.

9 Q. Did you see anyone of these men at some later stage?

10 A. Yes. I saw Resid Vilic at the hospital.

11 Q. Was he alive?

12 A. No, he was dead.

13 Q. Can you tell us after these -- after these -- after five people

14 were taken away, what happened then?

15 A. We were lined up, two by two, we were ordered to move along the

16 railway line in the direction of the town.

17 Q. On the way to the town, was anyone maltreated? Was anyone killed?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we go to private session, please?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go to private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17906

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 17907

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session.


3 Q. Sir, while you were in leaving the property of Stipo, did you --

4 were you able to observe what was happening with the houses in Kotor?

5 A. Yes. The houses were already on fire.

6 Q. Do you know who set the houses on fire?

7 A. They singled out some neighbours from Kotor, Serbian soldiers

8 accompanied them, the soldiers were told that nothing should remain, that

9 they shouldn't leave any stables untouched or any stores untouched and

10 that they shouldn't approach the houses, that they shouldn't come close to

11 the houses, because they might be booby trapped.

12 Q. These neighbours who were separated, were they of Muslim

13 ethnicity?

14 A. Yes. They were Muslims.

15 Q. And these men were ordered to set the houses on fire; is it

16 correct?

17 A. Yes. They were given the orders.

18 Q. Then you already described how you went towards the bridge and

19 this transporter accompanied you. Can you tell us more what happened on

20 the way towards the town? Did you know where you were taken?

21 A. They took us in the direction of the hospital. We got to the

22 crossroads, in the direction of the hospital, and they returned us to the

23 hospital again, which is where they took us.

24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I show the witness a map? It's Kotor Varos

25 town map. It has not been tendered into evidence yet so I would like to

Page 17908

1 tender it into evidence under P2123. If we could place it on the ELMO?

2 Q. And please show us where you were taken from and show us the way

3 you were -- you had to undergo.

4 A. Here we were gathered in Luka Marcinkovic's house. We headed

5 towards the railway track. We were taken to Rasim Tatar's house, and from

6 his house we were taken to Stipo Zeba's house, in the direction of Ravni,

7 that's about here. We were then returned again over the Vrbanja bridge in

8 the direction of the town.

9 Q. Sir, can I stop you for a moment? You mentioned a minute ago that

10 something happened to Idriz Fific. Can you one more repeat what happened

11 to him and where it was?

12 A. It was more or less here. He was leaning against a fence because

13 he was no longer able to move. He was leaning against a fence of a plot

14 of his own, and later I heard that this is the spot at which he was

15 killed. I personally saw him when he was leaning against the fence.

16 Q. Do you know what preceded to the fact that Idriz Fific was leaning

17 against the pillar?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. For the record, the witness has pointed

19 to the lower part of the box opposite photos 2 and 3 on the map.


21 Q. Before Idriz Fific died or was wounded, what happened? Was there

22 any shooting?

23 A. Yes. There was shooting.

24 Q. Who was shooting?

25 A. Serbian soldiers who were by our sides opened fire.

Page 17909

1 Q. Can you please proceed with the map and show how -- show us how

2 you continue and what else happened before you reach prison -- hospital?

3 A. When we got to the main street in Kotor Varos, we headed towards

4 the hospital. We got to the crossroads. Then we were taken back to the

5 sawmill, roughly speaking to -- as far as the new police station, and then

6 we were taken back to the hospital and taken on to the grounds of the

7 hospital.

8 Q. Thank you. I'm done with this map.

9 Sir, you mentioned that on the way to hospital, someone was thrown

10 to the water. Can you please describe how this incident happened and who

11 was thrown to the water.

12 (Redacted)

13 JUDGE AGIUS: There you are. You've made the first mistake of the

14 day, because now by mentioning his name everyone will be able to identify

15 you. So let's redact this part, please? And we go into private session

16 and we can continue.

17 [Private session]

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17910

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: I would like to show the witness a few

6 photographs. They are -- the first one is P2320.16.

7 Q. Can you tell us what we can see on this picture and what happened

8 here.

9 A. This is the hospital building. We were moving in this direction

10 from the gate. We were taken to this building, to the pavement in front

11 of the building of the hospital.

12 Q. What did you see in front of this building?

13 A. They lined us up here and then we had to crouch two by two, we had

14 to keep our heads bent, we had to place them between our legs. It was

15 very difficult to see anything. We could only see when we stood up, when

16 we had to do something. At the entrance behind the fence, they had a dog,

17 an Alsatian, who was tied up there.

18 Q. When were you in front of this building, were you maltreated?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please describe what happened to you.

21 A. They beat us and they walked over us, they would hit us with their

22 rifles, they would ask us what our names were, they called us Ustashas,

23 balijas.

24 Q. Do you know who was in command of these people who were beating

25 you or did you see any men who might be in command of these men?

Page 17911

1 A. I noticed Dragan Bojic; Dusko Vujicic; Dusko Maksimovic; Rajko

2 Skoric; Dusko Krejic, a soldier whose nickname was Mama; and many others.

3 Q. Can you tell us what Dusko Vujicic did when you saw him in front

4 of the hospital.

5 A. In front of the hospital, and I'm almost 100 per cent certain, he

6 was sitting on a chair. He called out the names of citizens of Kotor.

7 Q. You said he called out a name of a person. Did he --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not what he said. He said he called out the

9 names in the plural, in other words, of citizens of Kotor. And you're

10 suggesting that he merely called out the name of a person, which is

11 different.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't have transcript

13 in front of me, I'm sorry.

14 Q. You said he called names of people. Did he call them off top of

15 his head?

16 A. I apologise. He called out the name of one person, not of several

17 persons. He was a -- looking at a list.

18 Q. Tell us what was the name of this person who called?

19 A. Should I say the name?

20 Q. Yes, you can say the name of the person who was called by Dusko

21 Vujicic.

22 A. Miralem Avdic.

23 Q. Tell us what happened to Miralem Avdic.

24 A. He asked him whether he had been at the foundation of the SDA

25 assembly in Sarajevo and said, "You are the person."

Page 17912

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 JUDGE AGIUS: On second thoughts, Madam Richterova, going through

25 the next paragraph in his statement, I think he -- we better redact a part

Page 17913

1 of what his -- one of his previous answers consisted of.

2 Madam Registrar, could you please print me out the last 30 lines,

3 more or less, of his testimony, and I suggest we go into private session

4 for a while.

5 [Private session]

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17914

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's break now for 25 minutes, please. We

12 will resume at five to 11 and we will continue in open session, as far as

13 we can. Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.


17 Q. Sir, we finished before the break that you and other men took

18 Miralem Avdic towards the pile of other bodies.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I show the witness now the Exhibit P2320.18.

20 Q. Can you tell us what we can see on this picture.

21 A. Here we can see the hospital compound, the football pitch, this is

22 the hospital fence, there is a village here behind the hospital. In front

23 you can see the hospital.

24 Q. Tell us what happened at this place.

25 A. Around about here, they gave orders to dig a hole, a grave in

Page 17915

1 which to put the citizens of Kotor.

2 Q. Do you still remember who was present at that place? And I'm

3 talking about the soldiers who took you to the hospital. Did you

4 recognise any one of them?

5 A. Yes, I did. Rajko Skoric, Dusko Maksimovic. And then outside the

6 hospital, I saw Dragan Bojic, Dusko Krejic. There was another soldier

7 nicknamed Mama.

8 Q. Were all these soldiers present when you were digging the hole?

9 A. Yes, yes. The soldiers were there. I didn't do any digging but

10 there were several other people who were ordered to dig. I can't remember

11 who they were but I heard later that Mujo had been killed near the fence,

12 Mujo Zeher.

13 Q. At this point, did anybody else was -- did anybody else was killed

14 or maltreated?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell us who he was.

17 A. Myself, Ivica Matijevic, Enez Terzic.

18 Q. Can you describe what happened to Ivica Matijevic.

19 A. When we were singled out from the group, separated from the group,

20 I saw that he had been bitten in his cheek by a dog.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we show the witness Exhibit P2320.17.

22 Q. Can you tell us what we can see at this photograph.

23 A. This building is across the way from the building where we were

24 first made to crouch. That's the other side. And then towards the gate,

25 the entrance to the hospital, there is another large building where a

Page 17916

1 dental clinic. This is an apple tree. Here is where logs were piled up.

2 Over there was a pile of bodies, people who had been killed. This is the

3 gynaecologist's building for women. Also within the hospital complex.

4 Q. Did you see Ivica Matijevic anywhere close to this area that we

5 can see on this picture?

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Let's redact this last answer, please, and we

9 go into private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 17917

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So, witness, I ask you to repeat this part of your

2 answer. You stated that Ivica was ordered to move towards the pile of

3 dead bodies that you mentioned earlier on. Can you now repeat describing

4 what happened next, please. And if you know who shot him, could you tell

5 us also who shot him.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was ordered to start moving

7 towards the pile of dead bodies there. They told him that he was an

8 Ustasha, and then commander Dragan Bojic passed in front of us. He looked

9 at us and moved on. I saw that it was about here, near the pile of

10 bodies, Ivica fell down on the ground and I really couldn't say which of

11 the soldiers had fired. I later heard that he had been hanged from a

12 tree.


14 Q. Sir, you also mentioned the name of Enez Terzic. Can you tell us

15 what happened to Enez Terzic?

16 A. He was -- a dog, a German shepherd was let loose on him. They

17 said that it was a killer dog and that members of the HOS would have paid

18 several thousands of German marks for the dog but that they valued the dog

19 much more and that we shall see for ourselves how the dog goes about

20 killing.

21 Q. What did you see?

22 A. I saw the dog knock him down to the ground and his legs had

23 already been injured. He had scratches on his arms.

24 Q. Did he survive the attack of the dog?

25 A. Yes, he did.

Page 17918

1 Q. Was there any other incident that someone would be taken away and

2 you didn't see him later?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell us what happened?

5 A. Rajko Skoric took one man away, before they had ordered us to hand

6 over fuel too so that they could have some reserves. However, the man who

7 was taken away at that point never returned later.

8 Q. Can you tell us the name of this man?

9 A. Ivo Kljajic.

10 Q. Sir, can you now describe what happened to you after all these

11 killings happened. What happened further in front of the hospital?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I feel that we ought to go into private session for

13 a while here, Madam Richterova.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour, I apologise that I wasn't

15 thinking about that.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's go into private session, and you're

17 going to be asked a few questions about yourself and we will be in private

18 session so you can answer them without any problems at all.

19 [Private session]

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17919












12 Pages 17919 to 17929 redacted private session.














Page 17930

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Witness, I know that this is difficult for you. If

12 you need a break, if you need a small, a short rest, a short break, let me

13 know. Just tell me. I mean, we have absolutely no problem with that.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I'm ready to continue.


16 Q. Sir, did you see any bulldozer, any truck or any big machine

17 somewhere in the area of the hospital?

18 A. Yes. It was near the gate inside the hospital ground, outside the

19 dental building.

20 Q. Can you just only specify what did you see? What big machine you

21 saw?

22 A. It was a digger, an excavator or a bulldozer. A soldier drove it

23 and turned it towards us, pinning our backs against the wall of the dental

24 building.

25 Q. And what happened after that?

Page 17931

1 A. When he had us pressed there, that small space, and kept pressing

2 us against the wall, then it would back off and then the soldier told us,

3 "I'm sorry, my brakes weren't working properly."

4 Q. Was anyone injured when you were pinning by the bulldozer?

5 A. Yes. There were people who were injured.

6 Q. Do you know in which way?

7 A. I met a person in prison who had had his arm injured and another's

8 chest was crushed or pierced by a jag of the loader.

9 Q. How long did you stay in the area of hospital? For how long did

10 you stay there?

11 A. We stayed almost the whole day, started raining, and one of the

12 soldiers said, "Look, even God's on your side. God is saving your lives."

13 So they had us lined up and took us back -- took to us prison.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

15 Mr. Cunningham, how much time do you require for your cross?

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Certainly no more than an hour. I think I feel

17 very, very confident that Ms. Richterova is almost finished, and I feel

18 confident that we will finish with this witness today. I see no need to

19 keep him over the weekend. I know he needs to get home.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that, Mr. Cunningham and thank you.

21 So, Ms. Richterova, you regulate yourself accordingly, please. I

22 expect to you leave Mr. Cunningham an hour for his cross. I mean the last

23 session will last three-quarters of an hour so you have roughly another

24 three-quarters of an hour yourself.

25 MS. RICHTEROVA: I will finish much earlier.

Page 17932

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.


3 Q. Sir, in prison, where were you taken in the prison?

4 A. We were taken to the old prison near the hotel.

5 Q. Were you taken into a cell?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us how many people were together with you held in

8 that cell?

9 A. At that time, about 45 persons. The next day, more people

10 arrived.

11 Q. You said the next day more people arrived. Did you know from

12 which villages were these other people?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us the names of the -- these villages?

15 A. Vrbanjci and Rujevica.

16 Q. After they arrived, how many of men were caught in this cell?

17 A. Between 80 and 85.

18 Q. How big was this cell?

19 A. Roughly 6 by 5 metres.

20 Q. When did you receive your first meal?

21 A. On the second day.

22 Q. What type of meal did you receive that day?

23 A. They said this was to be our breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It was

24 just stale bread. It was moldy. It was very hard. There was potatoes,

25 mixed with a lot of water.

Page 17933

1 Q. After you ate this food, did you -- did anything happen to you?

2 A. Yes. We got sick with stomach-ache. We all needed to go to the

3 toilet very often.

4 Q. Did you have toilets either in the cell or somewhere which you

5 could use?

6 A. At the other end of the corridor, to the left of the cell, we did

7 have toilets.

8 Q. Could you use the toilet any time you wanted?

9 A. No. Only when they let us.

10 Q. If you wanted to use toilet and they didn't allow you, what -- how

11 did you solve this problem?

12 A. Old plates that we used were used for these needs.

13 Q. Were there any windows in the cell in which you were kept?

14 A. Yes. There were windows which were about 120 by 60 centimetres

15 large.

16 Q. Were these windows opened or closed?

17 A. Often they had to be kept closed. Then a soldier would leave them

18 open and then another soldier would order them to be closed so that we

19 would end up suffocating in that cell.

20 Q. Did you have enough space for you to sleep, to lie down?

21 A. No, we didn't.

22 Q. How long did you spend in prison?

23 A. I spent about seven days in that prison.

24 Q. Were you interrogated during the time you were in prison?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17934

1 Q. Who interrogated you?

2 A. Slobodan Dubocanin entered with a hat on his head.

3 Q. Did he interrogate you?

4 A. Yes, he did.

5 Q. What kind of questions did he ask you?

6 A. He wanted to know who had killed Sadik Fific. Since he was a

7 close friend of his, he wanted to know who had killed him. He wanted to

8 know which one of us had killed him so that he could personally deal with

9 that person.

10 Q. Dubocanin, when we are talking about this man, how did he treat

11 you personally and how did he treat other men who were kept in prison, if

12 you know?

13 A. He ordered me to count the people there. I tried to do so but I

14 wasn't successful. My right eye was closed. Later he ordered me to sing

15 songs with the prisoners who were with me.

16 Q. Sir, you stated your right eye was closed. Can you elaborate on

17 this? Why your eye was closed?

18 A. Because of the blows to my head, when my head was bent, someone

19 kicked me in the head.

20 Q. Did it happen in prison or when you were in hospital area?

21 A. In front of the hospital.

22 Q. Do you know how Dubocanin treated other men in prison?

23 A. An elderly person from Rujevica was allowed to smoke, a chair had

24 been brought in for that person, and he was -- he said that no one should

25 touch that person.

Page 17935

1 Q. Did you witness Dubocanin or any other people, any other soldiers,

2 beating people in prison, while you were there?

3 A. At the entrance to the prison, I saw such things.

4 Q. Can you elaborate on this, what such things?

5 A. At the entrance to the prison, we had to enter one by one. I saw

6 Dusko Vujicic there, and he would kick or punch the people while they were

7 entering. And on the right-hand side, in front of the prison, in front of

8 a house, and on the stairs, I saw Gavro Teinovic sitting there. He was

9 observing the people entering. Dusko Vujicic didn't beat me himself, but

10 a policeman did beat me. I assume he was from Skender. He hit me with a

11 pistol behind -- at the back of my neck. I fell down in the corridor. He

12 told me to enter. I crawled in. I was crawling on all fours. There was

13 another one there. He hit me. He told me to turn left. I entered the

14 room on the left-hand side. I saw Goran Zaric, an active-duty policeman

15 who was taking down the details, the personal details, of the people. He

16 would enter us in a list.

17 I entered, he hit me again. I entered the first room on the

18 right. Slobodan Dubocanin entered that room on several occasions later.

19 He ordered us to sing. He ordered me to count the people. He said that

20 we were to blame for what had happened to us.

21 Q. Sir, you just described how you were beaten. Did you suffer any

22 consequences of this beating? Did you have any medical problems while you

23 were in hospital -- in prison?

24 A. Yes. I was sitting on a bench at the entrance to the room on the

25 left. I was quite simply incapable of moving. When I stood up, I had to

Page 17936

1 lean against the wall. I had pain all over my body. I couldn't eat.

2 They tried to get me to lie down but I was not able to lie down because of

3 the pain.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: He hasn't quite read you, Madam Richterova. It's

5 not your fault.

6 Were you spitting blood as well? Because he --

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I just intended to ask that question.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Because he didn't -- please go ahead. I was

9 just trying to give a hand.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. You heard the Judge's question. Please, can you tell us whether

12 you were also spitting and urinating blood, as you describe it in your

13 statement?

14 A. Yes. I was spitting out blood. There was blood in my urine. It

15 was difficult for me to urinate. I think that I still feel the

16 consequences now.

17 Q. Do you still remember the day when you were released?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Here be careful because there is a lot of

19 information that could identify him. So if necessary, whenever you ask

20 me, Madam Richterova, we will go into private session. I leave it in your

21 discretion.


23 Q. Sir, can you tell us when you were released.

24 A. From the prison or?

25 Q. Yes, from prison.

Page 17937

1 A. I think I have provided you with a document about this. I can't

2 remember the exact date now. But there is a document certified by Savo

3 Tepic and it contains the date I was released and taken to a house, where

4 I was kept under the surveillance of the Serbian authorities.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can we go to private session for a moment?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Madam Richterova.

7 Let's go into private session for a while, please.

8 [Private session]

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17938












12 Pages 17938 redacted private session.














Page 17939

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 [Open session]


9 Q. When did you leave the municipality of Kotor Varos?

10 A. I think I left the municipality of Kotor Varos on the 25th of

11 August.

12 Q. Did you leave on convoy?

13 A. Yes. We left in a convoy that was supposed to be safe and we left

14 in the direction of Travnik.

15 Q. Did you have to sign any documents before you left Kotor Varos?

16 A. I didn't have to.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat that answer.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. We have some problems which would

19 require you to repeat your answer because the interpreters in their booth

20 couldn't catch up -- couldn't hear what you were saying, so if you could

21 speak up a little bit and repeat your answer, please. Go ahead.


23 Q. Can you turn --

24 A. Yes. There was a document. A person put -- left his fingerprints

25 on the document and this was valid for me too.

Page 17940

1 Q. Do you know what -- what this document stated?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell us.

4 A. It stated that I was leaving my municipality on a voluntary basis

5 and that I was the -- leaving my property and that for economic reasons I

6 was forced to leave, and not because of the war or for some other reasons.

7 Q. Was it true that you were leaving voluntarily?

8 A. No, it wasn't.

9 Q. Sir, did you have an opportunity to read your statement which you

10 gave to the investigator of the Office of the Prosecution on 15 and 16

11 August, 2000?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you made yesterday any corrections of this statement?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I would like this opportunity and

16 tender into evidence the statement and the amendments which were done

17 yesterday and it will be tendered under P2322, under seal.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It will be 2322.1, that being the statement itself.

19 And if you are tendering also the addendum to the statement, that would be

20 .2. Do you agree to that?

21 MS. RICHTEROVA: I agree to that.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cunningham, do you have any objection?

23 MR. CUNNINGHAM: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. These two documents which are brought

25 together now are being --

Page 17941

1 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry, I apologise. We have a declaration in

2 accordance with Rule 92 bis, and in fact, this declaration contains both

3 the statement and the addendum, so now I'm a little bit confused. Maybe

4 we could still tender this document as one document.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, all right, yes, yes, yes. Okay.

6 MS. RICHTEROVA: So it would be as mentioned before, P2322 under

7 seal.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. And they are being admitted under

9 seal with the number that Madam Richterova mentioned.


11 Q. Sir, I thank you.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honours, I concluded my

13 examination-in-chief.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Richterova.

15 Mr. Cunningham?

16 Now, Witness, look at me. I need to explain something very simple

17 but of great importance for this Trial Chamber. You are now going to be

18 asked a series of questions by Mr. Cunningham, who is one of the lawyers

19 defending Mr. Brdjanin. Cross-examining you as a witness is a right that

20 this Trial Chamber acknowledges to the Defence. It's not just this Trial

21 Chamber. It's a right acknowledged everywhere. Which basically means

22 that if Mr. Brdjanin through his lawyer has a right to cross-examine you,

23 to put questions to you, arising out of the various answers that you have

24 given already and arising out of this statement that has now been tendered

25 in evidence, you have a corresponding responsibility, obligation, under

Page 17942

1 the law to answer the questions that Mr. Cunningham will put to you, the

2 same way you have answered the questions put to you by the Prosecution.

3 In other words, in accordance with the solemn declaration that you made

4 earlier on today, that is, you need to answer, to say the truth, the whole

5 truth, and nothing but the truth when you answer the questions that are

6 put to you.

7 You have no right to draw a distinction, to make a distinction,

8 you have no right to say, "yes, I am prepared to answer the questions of

9 the Prosecution but I don't want to tell anything to the Defence lawyer."

10 You have no right to do that. So if there are any questions that we feel

11 you shouldn't answer, then obviously we will stop you from answering

12 them. And the same advice and caution that I gave you before, try -- if

13 you feel that by giving some information we need to go into private

14 session, just draw my attention to that and we will go straight into

15 private session.

16 Did you follow me?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks.

19 Mr. Cunningham, may I ask you please to proceed with your

20 cross-examination.

21 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Cunningham:

23 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you some questions. If you do not

24 understand my question, will you please let me know?

25 A. Fine.

Page 17943

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone, Mr. Cunningham.

2 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I apologise, Your Honour.

3 Q. I know that you want to be out of here, and the quickest way for

4 that to happen is for you to listen carefully to my question and to answer

5 only the question that I ask you. Do you think you can do that?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Your Honour, I'm going to ask some background

8 questions, so I think we need to go into private session.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session straight away.

10 [Private session]

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17944












12 Pages 17944 redacted private session.














Page 17945












12 Pages 17945 redacted private session.














Page 17946

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session, Mr. Cunningham.


16 Q. I'm going to take to you the day that you discovered what you have

17 described as anti-tank mines on the bridge. The bridge connects -- am I

18 correct, this is a bridge that's part of the roadway that connects Banja

19 Luka to Vrbanjci and points beyond Vrbanjci?

20 A. No. That's to the side of the road. The connecting road. The

21 road connecting the villages of Kotor and Kotor Varos.

22 Q. You -- that morning, I believe, you told us that you discovered

23 the anti-tank mines and you went to the centre of town to report that.

24 Correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 17947

1 MR. CUNNINGHAM: And, Judge, because I'm going to talk about his

2 superiors, can we go into --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, let's go into private session for a couple of

4 questions and then we return to open session.

5 [Private session]

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 17948

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.


3 Q. I'm going to jump ahead just a little bit and I'm going to ask you

4 a question about when you and other individuals were hiding in the woods,

5 and I believe you told us that you hid in the woods for about seven days.

6 Am I correct that you hid there for seven days?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. And during the time that you were in the woods, did you have the

9 opportunity to meet any of your fellow Muslims who had acquired or had

10 firearms with them?

11 A. No. No. There were no such people there.

12 Q. I thought you told us at one time in your group that, for example,

13 you had a weapon and there were 18 pistols and a number of hunting

14 rifles. Do you remember testifying to that this morning?

15 A. Yes. But we were not the same group. We were each with our own

16 families, and I thought you were referring to that, to us sticking

17 together as a group, which was not the case.

18 Q. My recollection is that the people in that group turned all their

19 weapons in to your representatives who were involved in the negotiations.

20 Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. I'm not talking about your group and the guns we just

23 talked about. I'm talking about other Muslims, other Bosniaks, that were

24 in the woods in the area of Kotor Varos, that had weapons. Did you come

25 across any people who had weapons, any other Muslims who had weapons?

Page 17949

1 A. I did not move about at all after I was caught; I was in prison.

2 I was not free to move about.

3 Q. And I understand that. I'm talking about the seven days that were

4 you in the woods hiding and then the short period of time that were you

5 allowed to stay at your house. During that time frame, did you or did you

6 not see any other people besides your group that had weapons? And when I

7 say "other people," I'm talking about Muslims or Bosniaks.

8 A. No.

9 Q. During --

10 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I need to go into closed session for a

11 real quick question.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into closed -- closed session or private

13 session?

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Private session.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thought you had changed your policy for a moment.


17 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We go into private session for a while, please.

18 [Private session]

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17950

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We are in open session now.

8 MR. CUNNINGHAM: I apologise again, Your Honour.

9 Q. After your negotiators returned, they told you that you could

10 return to your house and stay in your house. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You decided -- and don't tell us what your job was but you decided

13 that you were not going to go back to your job. Correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. Your homes were searched and during the search, were either you or

16 one of your representatives present during those searches?

17 A. No, not me. Representatives were there but I don't know about

18 that, though, but I wasn't.

19 Q. You had mentioned earlier in your testimony today something about

20 houses being booby trapped. Do you remember testifying about that?

21 A. No. Those were just warnings, placed there by soldiers so that

22 the houses would not be booby trapped.

23 Q. I'm going to talk to you -- I want to talk to you about your

24 arrest and the events that followed, and it is not my intention to make

25 you relive those events, so I'm just going to ask you some very, very

Page 17951

1 specific questions. Your testimony is, I believe, that you were arrested

2 and released as indicated by the face of the document that shows your

3 release, I believe you were released seven days later, on 1 July 1992.

4 Correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. And if you need to look at the document again, please do so, but

7 my notes indicate that the face of the document says that after reviewing

8 the interview and the operative information, it did not indicate that

9 misdemeanour or criminal proceedings should be instituted against you.

10 Do you remember reading that when you looked at the document just

11 a minute ago?

12 A. I didn't read through the whole thing but I saw the date. There

13 was a signature, a stamp. I still own the original of that document.

14 Q. I'm going to take you back now to talk about some of the events

15 that happened after your arrest. I think you told us that after you were

16 taken into custody, that you were marched towards the railway line, that

17 you were -- you and the other people you were with were ordered to form

18 four rows and then you had to hand over anything of value that you had.

19 Is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. While you were standing out there in these four rows, there were

22 repeated questions about who was responsible for killing the Serb

23 soldier. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Shortly after this happened, the questioning while you were

Page 17952

1 standing in four rows, ultimately you ended up in a shop owned by or

2 operated by Rasim Tatar?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And it was at -- while in his shop that the men who were guarding

5 you discovered that there was a minor, Rasim's son. Correct?

6 A. Rasim's brother's son, yes.

7 Q. But the fact is he was, I believe, 15 years of age and he was

8 allowed to be released. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You also told us that two other people there were allowed to be

11 released, Zemo Keher [phoen] and Goran Terzic. Correct?

12 A. Kemal Zeher, Kemal Zeher.

13 Q. And believe me, I apologise for my pronunciation, but why were

14 they released?

15 A. Goran Terzic was a child from a mixed marriage, and as for Kemal,

16 he was suffering from the consequences of some (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 Q. On the hospital grounds, you told us about some things that you

19 witnessed and some acts that were committed by Dusko Vujicic, and I want

20 to ask you about the shootings that you just -- the incident involving

21 Dusko?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you answer.

23 I think what the witness said about the second of the two persons

24 that you mentioned earlier, as far as Kemal is concerned, I don't think

25 this -- what Kemal suffered from should be of -- for public consumption,

Page 17953

1 so I'm ordering that that part of the -- after the words, "Of some

2 disease," the rest be deleted, be redacted interest the transcript. In

3 other words, the words starting from (Redacted) and ending, (Redacted)

4 Full stop. Sorry to have butted in like this, Mr. Cunningham.

5 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Absolutely no problem.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I will repeat, myself, the question to the witness.

7 Witness, Mr. Cunningham just put the following question to you

8 which I'm reading out to you and then I would kindly ask to you answer

9 it: "On the hospital grounds, you told us about some things that you

10 witnessed and some acts that were committed by Dusko Vujicic and I want to

11 ask you about the shootings that you just -- the incidents involving

12 Dusko? "

13 If you want to elaborate on that, Mr. Cunningham, you may.

14 Otherwise, we pass straight to the witness and to have him answer the

15 question.

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: With your permission, I'd like to clear up the

17 question.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. Go ahead.


20 Q. My understanding is that you were ordered to crouch down and to

21 have your heads -- your head placed between your knees so that you

22 couldn't see what was going on. Have I described the position that you

23 were forced to get into?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How is it, then, that you could see Dusko Vujicic do the shooting?

Page 17954

1 A. I wasn't quite crouching that low down. I could see the lower

2 part of his body, his legs, his hands, and the position of the pistol.

3 Q. Did it appear that anyone had given him any sort of order to shoot

4 the pistol or was he doing it on his own?

5 A. I don't know whether there was an order or whether he did it of

6 his own free will.

7 Q. I'm going to take you now to the time that you spent in the prison

8 at Kotor Varos. How many other -- were there other rooms that other

9 people were detained in?

10 A. Yes. There were other people.

11 Q. And did you ever have the opportunity to look at the other rooms

12 or see the other rooms?

13 A. Every time I'd go to the toilet, sometimes I caught glimpses of

14 open doors to other rooms and someone on their way out.

15 Q. Did those open rooms, did they have windows like yours?

16 A. Well, some may not have. Some may have. I really can't say.

17 Q. That's fair enough. While you were there, did you -- there at the

18 Kotor Varos prison, did you see any women who were detained in the prison?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And where were they detained at?

21 A. I saw a woman who was the opposite side from our room, across the

22 way, there may have been more, I don't know. There was a mother and her

23 daughter. Perhaps other women were kept in a different place, but I

24 didn't see that because I was not where they were.

25 Q. I want -- after your release, you were allowed to stay, I think

Page 17955

1 you described it as a home that was being watched by the Serbs. Correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In fact, it was someone's summer house. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Ultimately, you were able to make your way on to a convoy bound

6 for Travnik and I want to talk to you about that. Did you have to pay any

7 fee for -- to get on that convoy, to get on a bus?

8 A. No, not me.

9 Q. When you say "not me," that suggests to me that someone else had

10 to pay the fee?

11 A. I always only speak on my own behalf and on the behalf of my

12 family.

13 Q. My question is this: Did someone in your family pay your fee to

14 get into -- to get on the bus?

15 A. No. None of my family, no.

16 MR. CUNNINGHAM: Judge, I have a question that I need to go into

17 private session.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's go into private session for just one

19 question.

20 Thank you, Mr. Cunningham.

21 [Private session]

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17956

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 MR. CUNNINGHAM: This is my fault because I forgot to ask you this

23 question earlier, sir. We talked earlier about the anti-tank mines by the

24 bridge. That day, did you ever hear any of the soldiers, any of the other

25 armed people, talking about the anti-tank mines?

Page 17957

1 A. No.

2 Q. That day, was there any accusation that the anti-tank mines had

3 either been laid by Croats or Muslims?

4 A. Well, yes.

5 Q. And who -- I take it it was the Serb soldiers that were making

6 that accusation?

7 A. Well, they were kind of surprised, but the man who had crossed the

8 bridge said it himself. He suspected that the Muslims and Croats had laid

9 those mines.

10 Q. And was that while you were -- you and the other individuals were

11 taken into custody, were they trying to find out whether you or the people

12 that were in your group were responsible for laying the antitank mines?

13 A. No.

14 MR. CUNNINGHAM: That's all I have, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Cunningham.

16 Is there re-examination?

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: No, there is no re-examination.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Janu, do you have any questions?

19 JUDGE JANU: I have --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Judge Janu from the Czech Republic would like

21 to put some questions to you, sir.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Witness, at the looking at the map of Kotor

24 Varos, it's evident that Vrbanja River is dividing the town into two

25 parts. You were giving us the ethnic composition of the Kotor, and

Page 17958

1 it's -- from the numbers you gave to us, it's evident that there is a

2 predominant population of Muslim ethnicity.

3 Would you be so kind and clarify for the Chamber what was the

4 ethnic composition of Varos, just roughly, which ethnicity had the

5 majority there, if you know?

6 A. Donji Varos, well, roughly speaking the same structure as Kotor.

7 JUDGE JANU: Thank you. And my other question, when you were

8 asked and Mr. Cunningham touched it again, when you were asked who killed

9 the Serb, repeatedly, who killed the Serb, I would like to know, was the

10 name of that Serb ever mentioned?

11 A. No, no. The name was never mentioned, nor was the body ever

12 shown.

13 JUDGE JANU: And my other question is: When Slobodan Dubocanin

14 was trying to investigate, to find out, who killed the Sadik Fific, I

15 think that was his name, my question is: Was there any reasonable

16 possibility that that this person, Fific, could be killed by anybody of

17 you? Was it possible?

18 A. No, no. It would not have been possible. We were together. It

19 was more a provocation, you know, among us, who could have killed the man

20 with us or anyone else for that matter who was not with us. It would not

21 have been possible. We had to keep our hands behind our heads, and we

22 were surrounded throughout this time.

23 JUDGE JANU: And my last question is: You said that there were

24 certainly a moment in the prison that you were in very bad condition, you

25 were spilling blood and urinating blood. My question is: Did you or

Page 17959

1 somebody else from your colleagues -- from the other prisoners, ask for

2 medical help for you?

3 A. The third night, I was unconscious. Persons urinating into the

4 pales or buckets we had were pouring urine all over me so I regained

5 consciousness, and I found out from Besim Tatar, his wife was a Serb, she

6 brought some pills, tranquilisers and I took some tranquilisers and that

7 really helped me.

8 JUDGE JANU: So you were never given any medical aid from the

9 people who look from -- from the guards in the prison or from anybody who

10 was for this purpose in the prison?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE JANU: Thank you, that's all.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We've almost finished. Now only two very short

14 questions that I would like to ask you. And this is with reference to the

15 hospital where you were detained and the other prison of Kotor Varos where

16 you also were detained. What I would like to know is whether there

17 appeared to you to be any person there to be in control, in command, of

18 these two places, when were you in the hospital? Could you identify

19 anyone to be in command there?

20 A. I assume that the commander, the commander of the police station

21 at the time, was the commander -- was in command at the hospital. His

22 name was Dragan Bojic. Slobodan Dubocanin was present so he was probably

23 in command too. So I would say the two of them were perhaps in command.

24 I couldn't say for sure but they were present.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And with regard to the old prison?

Page 17960

1 A. At the time, Zaric, Goran, was the commander of the prison. He

2 was an active-duty policeman.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know if Slobodan Dubocanin is still alive?

4 MS. KORNER: No, he's not.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. I want to confirm what another witness

6 stated actually. Yes. I'm waiting for your answer.

7 A. I said that I really don't know whether he's alive.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. Thank you. That brings us to an

9 end of your testimony.

10 I apologise to the interpreters and the technicians and the rest

11 of the staff for having stayed longer than we were supposed to, but --

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the reason I'm here, I'm sorry, I have

13 something urgent to raise. If Your Honour wants a break, we can raise it.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: How long?

15 MS. KORNER: It will take five minutes, I hope.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's see what response there is from the

17 interpreters. We have no problem in breaking and resuming because we --

18 MS. KORNER: Then I'm quite happy.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But if the interpreters can live with this and we

20 stay for another five minutes or so? And then we --

21 THE INTERPRETER: That's fine with the interpreters, Your Honour.


23 MS. KORNER: Could we go into private session, Your Honour, and we

24 needn't trouble the witness.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. We'll dismiss the witness.

Page 17961

1 Witness, I would like to thank you -- sir, look at me, I would

2 like to thank you for having come over to give evidence in this trial and

3 I'm thank you, not only on my own behalf but on behalf of Judge Janu and

4 Judge Taya and also on behalf of the Tribunal. You will receive all the

5 attention and assistance you require to enable you to return home as soon

6 as possible according to your wishes and on behalf of everyone present

7 here, I should like to wish you a safe journey back home. Thank you. The

8 usher will now escort you out of the courtroom.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Ms. Korner, did I hear you well you want to go

12 into private session?

13 MS. KORNER: Yes, please, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go into private session.

15 [Private session]

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 17962












12 Pages 17962 to 17966 redacted private session.














Page 17967

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

5 12.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

6 the 23rd day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.