Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18759

1 Thursday, 3 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Registrar, you can proceed calling the

7 case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.

9 This is case number IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you follow

11 in a language that you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Yes. I

13 can follow in a language that I understand.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

15 Appearances, Prosecution.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good morning, Your Honours. Ann Sutherland

17 assisted by Denise Gustin, case manager for the Prosecution.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you and good morning to you.

19 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

21 I'm here with Aleksandar Vujic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you. Is

23 Mr. Cunningham still in town or has he left?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: He's still in town, Your Honour, he's doing a

25 little -- other work this morning but he's leaving early in the morning, I

Page 18760

1 think.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Can we proceed straight away with the

3 witness? Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

4 Welcome back, Mr. Treanor.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, good to be here.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You're proceeding with your testimony on the basis

7 of the solemn declaration that you entered yesterday, you don't need to

8 repeat it today. Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand that.


11 Examined by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]

12 Q. Mr. Treanor, you mentioned yesterday that members of the SDS

13 deputies club played a very important role in the governance of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and that was at LiveNote pages 38 to 40. You mentioned

15 that Karadzic at the SDS deputies club meeting held on the 28th of

16 February, 1992, reminded the deputies present that they had played a very

17 important role in making policy over the last year?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. You looked at Exhibit P34 but weren't able to immediately find the

20 quote and I couldn't assist you because my copy wasn't marked up.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P34?

22 Q. If I could take you to page 37 of the English translation --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In the third full paragraph, is that what you were referring to?

25 A. Yes. Precisely. The paragraph reads: "As for the deputies from

Page 18761

1 Krajina I think that 99 per cent of them side with party policy. After

2 all they create the policy. Please, who has created the policy so far?

3 The deputies have. Not the main board."

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, I've finished with that document.

5 Q. You were also shown a document Exhibit P2335, this was at LiveNote

6 page 56 and it was the intercept between Radovan Karadzic and Nenad

7 Stevandic on the 17th of August, 1992. There was a conversation mentioned

8 about Brdjanin being taken fishing up to Jovica's and there was a

9 discussion about the word -- the meaning of the word "fishing."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Whether it should be understood literally as a fishing trip?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You were not afforded an opportunity to listen to the audio tape

14 containing this intercept, were you?

15 A. No.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour I have the intercept cued if we can

17 play the audio.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I would be very interested in listening to that,

19 Ms. Sutherland, provided it doesn't take much of our time because I do not

20 share the same opinion that Mr. Treanor has. I don't think that was a

21 real fishing expedition.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if we can play it from the start and

23 the first 30 seconds and then we can go to the next part.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Sutherland.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the audio tape of Exhibit P2355 please be

Page 18762

1 played from the beginning?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman? You have an objection?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, but my microphone doesn't work.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Ackerman.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Now it works. Your Honour, the objection is this.

6 Apparently -- first of all, the tape is in B/C/S, it's not in English.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I would expect it to be.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Second of all, the persons who work in the booths

9 here generally just use a transcript and read from the transcript and so I

10 can't imagine how this is going to enlighten us any if what is proposed is

11 that the witness sit here and listen to it and do an immediate

12 off-the-cuff translation of what he hears, I think that doesn't enlighten

13 us either. The way translations of things like this are done in this

14 Tribunal, are very carefully, they are double-checked, a translator is

15 able to do four or five or six pages per day. To make sure it's right.

16 This is not going to assist us. This is not going to give us an

17 appropriate translation of this document. The way to do this is to send

18 it to CLSS and have them do an appropriate translation and then you can

19 see what the language is but this is not appropriate and this will not

20 enlighten the Tribunal at all.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, is there a transcript of -- I

22 suppose there is, no?

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, this is an official CLSS translation.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Still doesn't help us, you say. Listen, you haven't

25 heard my last word on -- is there anything wrong?

Page 18763

1 MR. ACKERMAN: It won't come on. It finally just did. Your

2 Honour, I think --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I take your point but believe me, Mr. Ackerman, you

4 haven't heard my last word on the matters of intercept and I haven't -- I

5 must admit I only got it this morning. I haven't gone through your

6 objection and I suppose you have a lot to say as I would have a lot to say

7 and others would have a lot to say. However, at this point in time,

8 having dealt with intercepts before in my life, in my career, from a legal

9 point of view, from a judicial point of view, my approach is always unless

10 there is something which at the very beginning, just before we embark on

11 the exercise puts me on my guard to an extent as to be extremely

12 suspicious of the whole affair, then I proceed to listen and I decide

13 after, because sometimes, and most of the time, I have learned from my

14 experience in the past, that it is only after having heard the whole lot

15 and all the details that are necessary, that you are put in a position

16 where you can decide on the legality and on the admissibility irrespective

17 of the illegality or otherwise of the whole exercise of interception of

18 communications and I know that you understand because I think part of it

19 is included here.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, what you say displays a great deal of wisdom,

21 Your Honour, and I appreciate that. My concern is this: If there is an

22 official CLSS translation of that document, then that translation should

23 speak for itself and having this witness sit here this morning and listen

24 to it and try to come up with a different translation that disagrees with

25 CLSS makes no sense because he's doing it off the cuff and he's not even a

Page 18764












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Page 18765

1 native speaker of the language and they are the people who do the

2 translations and do them properly.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Ackerman, but let's not jump the

4 gun because listening to a conversation is one thing, reading the

5 transcript is another. The way an expression is made or the way a

6 sentence is spoken or words are spoken, we can detect whether there is

7 irony, whether there is an understatement which you can't detect if you

8 are just reading a transcript so let's go ahead and I can assure you that

9 you will receive all the protection that you require if at any time I feel

10 that these intercepts, all or any of them should be thrown overboard.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: May I enter one more objection?


13 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. Treanor has now been informed, if not before

14 now, what it is the Prosecution expects him to do and that is change his

15 mind that it really wasn't a fishing trip. He works for the Office of the

16 Prosecutor. So I object also on that basis because he now knows what they

17 want him to do.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I take that into consideration. It's not a proper

19 objection in the sense that he is here testifying under oath and not as a

20 puppet of the Prosecution but I do take your point.

21 Yes. You know, I don't even think I ought to remind Mr. Treanor

22 of his obligations because I did so at the beginning of the sitting. He

23 is here not as a witness to keep the Prosecution case floating but as an

24 expert witness with all the responsibilities that that entails.

25 Ms. Sutherland.

Page 18766

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. Could the audio tape be played

2 from the beginning?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you locate the transcript for us,

4 Ms. Sutherland? Because --

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's Exhibit P2355, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We had it already yesterday, yeah, exactly.

7 THE WITNESS: Sorry, what is the date of the conversation?

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: 17th of August, 1991.

9 [Audiotape played]

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the volume be --

11 [Audiotape played]

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: I think we could pause there.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Your question, Ms. Sutherland?


15 Q. Mr. Treanor, does listening to the audio tape enlighten you any

16 more on the translation of what is --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: About the fishing expedition, I want to know.


19 Q. Yes.

20 A. We haven't gotten to that part yet, have we?

21 Q. In my limited understanding it was -- perhaps we could -- perhaps

22 we could take the tape back to the beginning?

23 A. I think the part you're referring to is on page 5 of the

24 transcript. The tape was played to almost to the bottom of page 2 of the

25 transcript.

Page 18767

1 Q. I think starting at the top of page 2 of the English transcript,

2 it says, Stefandic: "But, I wanted, no, as concerns Brdjo, there

3 are no problems there. Miroslav and I have a hold of Brdjanin. Last time

4 we took him fishing up to Jovica's." Karadzic: "Yes." Stefandic:

5 "And he scared him a little so that stupid thing shouldn't be done and so

6 on and we have a hold of Brdjo you know, but Brdjanin now has problems

7 with them, they ..." And then it goes on.

8 I think if we can replay --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: But it's useless, looking at me, Ms. Sutherland,

10 because I can't help you. It's the technicians that have to locate the

11 part.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's what I was meaning, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And I don't understand the language, either.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: I was looking at you but the audiovisual man is

15 behind me. Could we go back to the beginning of the tape, please?

16 THE WITNESS: Perhaps I could have a copy of the translation?

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Mr. Treanor. This is English and

18 B/C/S.

19 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay. I think I see the spot now, yeah.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the tape be played again, please? From the

21 beginning.

22 [Audiotape played]

23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Good morning. Good morning. Hello,

24 Stevandic here, could I talk to Mr. Karadzic? Just a moment. Hello?

25 Good morning. Good morning. Greetings, Nenad here. How are you? How

Page 18768

1 are you? I'm fine thank you, what have you been doing? Well, I came to

2 Banja Luka yesterday to finish part of the job and so on. Did you go

3 visit your folks? I did go to the centre. And how are things there?

4 They are fine. Are they? Yes they are great. Tell me, what's it like as

5 concerns the political situation? As concerns the political situation,

6 well, there are lots of problems. Are there? Well Andjelko and Vojo are

7 going for it full tilt, quite recklessly. Brdjanin would like to put a

8 stop to it, to have a bit of consultation and reasoning. Tell them not to

9 do anything stupid on any account because then we are accused of these

10 stupidities. Alija, and tell them this outright, remember this and tell

11 them that Alija has no arguments against the Serbs. He can't, he told the

12 Muslims, we don't want to reach an understanding with the Serbs. But he

13 can't say why. So we shouldn't provide him with any arguments. Well

14 yes. Nowhere. We'll do everything Vojo and Brdjo think but after the

15 failure of the agreements that Alija will bring about, we will accuse

16 Alija for this failure. But, I wanted, no, as concerns Brdjo, there are

17 no problems there. Miroslav and I have a hold of Brdjanin. Last time we

18 took him fishing up to Jovica's. Yes. And he scared him a little so that

19 stupid things shouldn't be done and so on, and we have a hold of Brdjo you

20 know, but Brdjo now has problems with them. Well, you have to sit down

21 with them and tell them that I send my greetings and a message that if

22 politics were like that, then every fool would be a politician, if things

23 were straightforward. It has to zig-zag. We are the leading players of

24 the game right now. Politically, we are the winners now. The initiative

25 is in our hands. He has to defend himself from our initiative. On

Page 18769

1 television, he looks like, you have seen what he looks like, like ...

2 Like a lost man. A lost man. He doesn't know where to turn.


4 Q. Mr. Treanor, were you listening?

5 A. I was listening to English at there point.

6 Q. I'm sorry, if we could rewind the tape --

7 A. Just a few seconds.

8 Q. Just slightly.

9 [Audiotape played]

10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Last time we took him to Jovica's to

11 fish --

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Stop, stop. Could you rewind the tape a little

13 bit more, just back a little bit more, and then if we --

14 THE WITNESS: I'm still getting English.

15 Q. If we don't have the translation -- if we don't have an

16 interpretation from the booth and if you just listen to the B/C/S?

17 A. Right.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the tape now be played?

19 [Audiotape played]

20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Tell them not to do anything stupid

21 an any account because then we are accused of these stupidities. Alija,

22 and tell them this -- remember -- tell them that Alija doesn't have any

23 arguments against the Serbs --


25 JUDGE AGIUS: You haven't arrived there.

Page 18770












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Page 18771


2 Q. Mr. Treanor, are you on channel 6? Have you got the B/C/S?

3 A. We have not got to that point yet.

4 Q. I realise that but have you got the B/C/S channel? You're

5 listening in B/C/S? You're listening to the audio tape in B/C/S?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Okay. Thank you. We can continue.

8 [Audiotape played]

9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Yes. We will do all that Vojo, Brdjo

10 think but after the failure of the agreements that Alija will bring about,

11 we will accuse Alija for the failure. But, I wanted, no, as concerns

12 Brdjo there are no problems. Miroslav and I have a hold of Brdjanin.

13 Last time we took him fishing up to Jovica's. Yes. And he scared him a

14 little so that stupid things shouldn't be done and so on and we have a

15 hold of Brdjo you know, but Brdjanin now has problems with them, they ...

16 Well, you have to sit down with them and tell them that I send my

17 greetings and a message that if politics were like that, then every fool

18 would be a politician, if things were straightforward. It has to zig-zag.

19 We are the leading players of the game right now. Politically, we are the

20 winners. The initiative is in our hands. He has to defend himself from

21 our initiative. On television, he looks like --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's comment, that word "fishing"

23 could also be translated as "taking to task."


25 Q. Mr. Treanor, having listened to the audio tape, does -- what --

Page 18772

1 what is your interpretation of the word "fishing"?

2 A. Yes, I have now managed to listen to the tape, and read the

3 appropriate portion of the transcript at the same time, and the expression

4 that is used is -- uses the word "fishing" up there for fishing. That's

5 really all I can say.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: But my -- why I wondered yesterday and why I wonder

7 still today, how you came to your conclusion at the time that you could

8 take it literally is that how can two persons have on hold or keep on hold

9 or have a hold on someone simply because they took him fishing at

10 Jovica's?

11 THE WITNESS: Well, what I think is going on here is --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I can assure you that I have a lot of friends with

13 whom I have gone fishing but none of them have any hold on me.

14 THE WITNESS: I think what is going on here is that he's saying

15 that they are -- have or are attempting to establish close personal

16 relations and a close understanding with each other. And they took the

17 opportunity of this weekend fishing trip, whatever it was, to strengthen

18 those relations and have a chat about matters.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the next sentence, couple of sentences,

20 Ms. Sutherland? Can you read them please? After the fishing. What was

21 he told at Jovica's place.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Stevandic says, "And he scared him a little so

23 stupid things should not be done and so on and we have a hold of Brdjo,

24 you know, that Brdjanin now has problems with them."

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So that was what the fishing expedition was about.

Page 18773

1 I think I've heard enough.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Just on that transcript, there are a number of --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman? I think your client is unhappy with

5 something. If you can make him happy?

6 [Defence counsel confer with client]

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: May we proceed, Mr. Ackerman?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm told that there is another

10 interpretation of the word "ribanje" [phoen] which is brainwashing, which

11 may be what was meant here. I don't know.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's -- if you were following what the interpreter,

13 one of the interpreter's said at one moment, she said that the word

14 fishing could actually mean something else, and that's sort of convincing

15 or I forgot exactly.

16 JUDGE JANU: Task.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand your point here. Let's go ahead

18 because we have -- I anticipate -- a lot of problems in the course of

19 today's sitting so let's proceed.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Hopefully after Mr. Treanor completes his

21 testimony.

22 Q. Mr. Treanor, just in that intercept, there are a number of names

23 mentioned. Zepinic. Are you familiar with -- are you familiar with that

24 name?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18774

1 Q. Who is that person?

2 A. Vitomir Zepinic was the deputy minister of internal affairs of

3 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at this time. He was a

4 nominee of the Serbian Democratic Party.

5 Q. Simovic?

6 A. That would presumably be the -- one of the vice-presidents of the

7 government of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, who was also a

8 nominee of the Serbian Democratic Party.

9 Q. Are you familiar with Savicic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And we can actually see from page 162 of the first report, and

12 also in Exhibit P2362, that you saw yesterday, that Zepinic and Simovic

13 are listed as members of the Bosnian Serb council of ministers. I want to

14 move on to a different topic now. What was the relationship between the

15 regions and the police?

16 A. Well, when you say the regions, I presume you mean the Serbian

17 autonomous districts or regions.

18 Q. Yes, I'm sorry.

19 A. The Autonomous Region of Krajina. Officially there was no

20 relationship between them. As I discussed yesterday, there was no

21 regional level of government in the Socialist Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, intermediate between the republic and the

23 municipalities with the exception of Sarajevo, the city of Sarajevo.

24 However, various of the republic ministries had their own internal

25 administrative regions such as the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the

Page 18775

1 Ministry of Defence. The Ministry of Internal Affairs had regional

2 centres which were known as security services centres in various parts of

3 the country, I think there were five, six or seven of them, in 1991. One

4 of them was located in Banja Luka. The area covered by, for instance, at

5 security services centre was several municipalities in that region.

6 However, those were not the same municipalities which were members of the

7 Autonomous Region of Krajina. When the Autonomous Region of Krajina was

8 established, they -- the leaders of the Autonomous Region of Krajina were

9 anxious to establish the autonomous region as a governing entity, as a

10 level of government, and as part of that effort, they were naturally

11 anxious to establish relations with the regional offices of republic

12 ministries in their area. The Autonomous Region of Krajina of course was

13 also centred in Banja Luka and one of the important offices that they

14 wanted to establish relations with was the security services centre in

15 Banja Luka, which was in fact headed by a nominee of the Serbian

16 Democratic Party. So he was sympathetic to their cause.

17 Q. That person being?

18 A. Stojan Zupljanin. Now, when the --

19 Q. Just -- there is an exhibit, we have an exhibit showing what you

20 were talking about at the moment but we can move on. You can continue.

21 A. Now, when the Bosnian Serb Assembly began to develop its own

22 governing organs, it at a certain point in time began a write a

23 constitution for a nascent Serbian Republic in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

24 implementing legislation for that nascent entity. It was therefore a

25 concern of the leaders of the -- of ARK that that constitution and the

Page 18776












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Page 18777

1 legislation take account of the existence of the regions and firm up their

2 position within the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. Are you aware of any meetings that occurred in relation to setting

4 up a Serbian police?

5 A. Yes. This was a matter of discussion over several months at the

6 end of 1991 and beginning of 1992, and on the 11th of February in 1992,

7 there was a meeting in Banja Luka of Serbian officials in the Ministry of

8 Internal Affairs who were nominees of the Serbian Democratic Party,

9 including Stojan Zupljanin.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown a new document, and if

11 it could be marked Exhibit P2364? This is part of disclosure 2.417.

12 Q. Is that the meeting you were referring to?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This is minutes of a meeting held in Banja Luka on the 11th of

15 February, 1992. If I could take you to the conclusions of that meeting --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. We can see there that a Serbian collegium is hereby established

18 consisting of Serbian personnel at executive positions in all the lines of

19 work within the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. And that they had to complete by Friday, the 14th of February,

22 1992, proposals for the coordination of security services centres, public

23 security sectors, national security sectors and municipal secretariats of

24 the interior.

25 A. Yes, that's correct. Municipal secretariats of internal affairs.

Page 18778

1 Q. You mentioned on internal affairs, did you know when the laws on

2 internal affairs and when the laws on defence were passed?

3 A. Yes, that was on February the 28th, 1992.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P2330?

5 Q. Would you take Their Honours to the articles which are relevant to

6 the regions?

7 A. Yes, this is the law on internal affairs of the Serbian Republic

8 of Bosnia-Herzegovina passed on the 28th of February, 1992. It however

9 did not come into effect until the end of March, 1992. At this point in

10 time, I would draw attention in particular to Article 27, I think I need a

11 translation for this so I can direct the Court to the proper -- reading

12 from the official translation, Article 27 notes that a public security

13 station shall also execute the regulations issued by the municipal

14 assembly pertaining to law, order, traffic, safety, as well as other legal

15 regulations issued by the municipal assembly which related to internal

16 affairs.

17 I would also call attention to Article 28 which relates to the

18 issue that we discussed previously. This Article establishes the system

19 of security service centres for the Serbian Republic of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It says that "The centre for public security services

21 shall be established in Banja Luka for the Autonomous Region of Krajina;

22 Trebinje for the Serbian autonomous district of Herzegovina; Doboj for the

23 Serb autonomous district of Northern Bosnia; Sarajevo for the Serb

24 autonomous district of Ramansko Bircinski [phoen]; Bijeljina for the Serb

25 autonomous district of Semberija."

Page 18779

1 Also at this time, of interest might be Article 31 which reads,

2 "Upon the request of the municipal assembly, the centre of public security

3 services and a public security station shall submit information,

4 notifications and other data on the situation and problems within a

5 district and region for which they have been established."

6 Q. What if any steps were taken to establish regional institutions?

7 A. Well, the ARK assembly itself was very interested in that issue

8 and sought to take a number of steps on its own initiative to establish

9 regional institutions. The republic of -- the Serbian Republic of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, on its part, by this legislation, took an important

11 step in that direction by establishing the security service -- security

12 services centres for each of the regions.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown a new document, it's

14 an extract of the minutes of the 15th session of the assembly of the

15 Autonomous Region of Krajina held on the 4th of March, 1992 in the great

16 hall of the Banja Luka cultural centre and if that could be marked P2365?

17 Q. Mr. Treanor could you explain the significance of this document?

18 A. Yes, this document is another extract from the records of the 15th

19 session of the assembly, we saw some of these extracts before. In other

20 words this is an extract from a record which was made after the session

21 and reflects what took place at that session. The agenda items for the

22 session are interesting in connection with the events we just mentioned,

23 took place on February the 28th, the passing of the constitution of the

24 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, its law on internal affairs and

25 other basic legislation. The first item in the agenda is putting the

Page 18780

1 constitution and laws of the Serbian Republic of BH into effect and they

2 consider the election appointment of the president; designated the

3 executive council; item number 3 is the adoption of the decision to form

4 the security services centre of the Autonomous Region of Krajina; item

5 number 4 is the adoption of a decision to form the payment, transactions

6 and financial supervision service of the Autonomous Region of Krajina;

7 item number 5, is the adoption of a decision to form the Krajina petrol

8 public enterprise; number 6 is the adoption of a decision to form the

9 Krajina public enterprise for wholesale and retail trade in goods;

10 number 7 is the adoption of a decision to form the Autonomous Region of

11 Krajina funds; and item number 8 is the election and appointment of the

12 secretary of the security services centre of the Autonomous Region of

13 Krajina. So we see a series of items on the agenda which relate to the

14 establishment of institutions in various areas for the Autonomous Region

15 of Krajina, including and very prominently the security services centre.

16 Q. Who controlled the police at that stage?

17 A. Well, at this stage, in the date of this meeting being the 4th of

18 March, 1922.

19 Q. 1992?

20 A. 1992, there was no Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Serbian

21 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The legislation did not come into effect

22 until the 31st of March. At that time, the ministry was -- a minister was

23 appointed and the ministry was under his control and of course he answered

24 to the assembly.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown another document? A

Page 18781

1 new document? Part of disclosure 4.2078.

2 Q. That document is dated the 31st of March, 1992. Is that what you

3 were just referring to?

4 A. Yes. This is a telex sent out by Momcilo Mandic, who was an

5 assistant minister of internal affairs in the Ministry of Internal Affairs

6 of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to all the security

7 services centres and all the public security stations around the republic

8 informing them of the activation, if you will, of the Serbian Ministry of

9 Internal Affairs pursuant to decisions taken at a meeting held on the 27th

10 of March, 1992, a meeting of the Assembly of the Serbian People held on 27

11 March, 1992, at which the constitution of the Serbian republic was

12 ceremonially promulgated. And he informs people that in addition other

13 laws had been passed. This is all in the first paragraph of the

14 document. Necessary for the functioning of the Serbian republic of the

15 republic of the Serbian people and it had passed a law on internal affairs

16 which will be uniformly applied on the territory of the republic of the

17 Serbian people and Bosnia-Herzegovina as of 1 April, 1992 and that the

18 assembly had appointed Mico Stanisic until now an adviser in the Ministry

19 of Internal Affairs of Bosnia-Herzegovina as minister.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. Could the witness be shown Exhibit

21 P26?

22 JUDGE JANU: Exhibit number for this document?

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, P2366. Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Treanor, this is the 12th session, the stenographic record of

25 the 12th session of the assembly of Serbian people?

Page 18782












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Page 18783

1 A. No it isn't, not yet.

2 Q. Held in Pale on the 24th of March, 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was anything stated at this assembly meeting in relation to who

5 was going to control the police?

6 A. Yes. There is an interesting -- very interesting passage in

7 remarks by Radovan Karadzic to this meeting, which I think I believe are

8 on --

9 Q. If I can take to you page 22.

10 A. Are on page 22 of the translation, right. These remarks take

11 place within the context of a discussion about the proposal for the

12 establishment of a national guard for the Serbian Republic of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the -- in view of its impending activation, the

14 activation of the institutions of that republic, as we have just seen on

15 the 27th of March, three days later, the constitution was in fact formally

16 proclaimed and the Ministry of Internal Affairs was activated on the 1st

17 of April. In the middle of the page, the discussion relates to whether

18 the Serbian republic will have sufficient armed forces and then it heads

19 through the proposal for the establishment of a national guard but in the

20 middle of the page, Dr. Karadzic says, "You can be sure --" again reading

21 from the official translation, "You can be sure that numbers the police

22 are quite sufficient. I know that the Serbs cannot do what the HOS is

23 doing - HOS stands for the Croatian armed forcers which was a Croatian

24 paramilitary group - cannot do what the HOS is doing, to do things which

25 are not based on law. We have a legal basis on the law on internal

Page 18784

1 affairs and we also have the insignia and at a desired moment and this

2 will be very soon, we can form whatever we want, there are reasons why

3 this could happen in two or three days, such are the forecasts but I

4 cannot tell you the reasons now. At that moment, all the Serbian

5 municipalities both the old ones and the newly established ones, would

6 literally assume control of the entire territory of the municipality

7 concerned. The Zvornik municipality takes control over everything that

8 constitutes the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik. Then at a given moment

9 in the next three or four days, there will be a single method used and you

10 will be able to apply it in the municipalities you represent, including

11 both things that must be done as well as how to do them, how to separate

12 the police force, take the resources that belong to the Serbian people and

13 take command. The police must be under the control of the civilian

14 authority. It must obey it. There is no discussion about that. That's

15 the way it must be. I think we shall hear about it today in the form of

16 instructions at the deputies club." I think that's the important part of

17 that statement in connection with the relationship between the police and

18 the civilian authorities.

19 Q. And so after April, 1992, who was in authority?

20 A. Well, it depends where you are speaking about. The institutions

21 of the Serbian republic were activated at that time. The ministers of

22 internal affairs and some of the other ministries were appointed. The two

23 Serbian members of the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina became acting presidents of the Serbian Republic of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the assembly, the Assembly of the Serbian People in

Page 18785

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, created a national security council on the 27th of

2 March, to control the institutions that had been established for the

3 republic during the -- what had become a crisis and indeed a war within a

4 few days. The national security council was composed of Radovan Karadzic,

5 as president, and included other important officials such as Momcilo

6 Krajisnik, who was the president of the Assembly of the Serbian People.

7 The prime minister of the new republic, Mr. Djeric, as well as other

8 officials such as Mr. Stanisic who had been appointed -- just been

9 appointed the Minister of Internal Affairs and Colonel Subotic, who was

10 the -- been appointed minister of defence of the republic. So that was

11 the top leadership level of the Serbian republic during April and early

12 May, 1992.

13 Q. And had any instructions been issued, did they issue any

14 instructions or had the Bosnian Serb leadership issued any instructions in

15 relation to the --

16 A. Yes, indeed. On the 4th of April, Radovan Karadzic issued

17 instructions that Crisis Staffs be activated in certain areas where

18 perhaps they hadn't been already, on the 15th of April, the national

19 security council decided to declare an imminent threat of war, and --

20 which gave the president of the republic, that is the acting presidents,

21 emergency powers, as we discussed yesterday, basically that meant that all

22 powers that fell within the scope of the assembly could be exercised by

23 the president during that period and on the 26th of April, the government

24 issued instructions to the Crisis Staffs as to how they were to operate.

25 Q. Were these instructions -- you mentioned that Crisis Staffs were

Page 18786

1 set up in municipalities where they hadn't been already set up. What

2 instructions were these pursuant to?

3 A. The establishment of Crisis Staffs.

4 Q. Could the witness be shown Exhibit -- sorry, a new document, which

5 is part of disclosure 2.1 A. Your Honour, this is the instructions for

6 the organisation and operation of organs of the Serbian people in Bosnia

7 and Herzegovina in emergency conditions. We do have a copy of this as an

8 exhibit but this is a -- another version of it. This is copy number 93.

9 Your Honour we have copy number 96 as Exhibit P25. Perhaps this document

10 could be marked P25.1?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it any different from P21 A?

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: No that was disclosure 2.1 A. This is Exhibit

13 P25. It is different in that there is handwriting.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, okay. I misunderstood you. Yes, let's go

15 ahead and it will be marked as you suggested, P25.1.


17 Q. Sir, these were the instructions that you were just referring to?

18 A. Yes, these are the origin instructions that relate to the

19 establishment of Bosnian Serb Crisis Staffs. They were issued on the 19th

20 of December, 1991, by the main board of the Serbian Democratic Party and

21 in fact refer at the very end of the document on page 9, in the original,

22 certainly the last page of the -- well, let me look at this translation.

23 Q. It's on the ELMO to your right. Usher, if you can just pass

24 Mr. Treanor the English?

25 A. I have it. I have it. On page 11 of the translation, at the end

Page 18787

1 of the main part of the document, it refers to the -- also refers to the

2 SDS Crisis Staff. I would remind the Court that the 19th of December was

3 two days before the Assembly of the Serbian People appointed the council

4 of ministers of the Serbian republic -- well, appointed its council of

5 ministers and this was also at a point in time in late December, 1991,

6 when the -- the majority in the Presidency and other organs of the Serbian

7 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is the non -- basically, primarily

8 the non-Serbian members of those organs were seeking international

9 recognition for the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina which of course was

10 something that the Serbian Democratic Party was very opposed to. In

11 that -- therefore, I would first of all call attention to paragraph 1 of

12 this document, which sets out the reasons for the issuance of the

13 document. Paragraph 1 reads, "Because there is reasonable ground for

14 suspicion that certain forces are working persistently, thoroughly and in

15 an organised way to take Bosnia and Herzegovina and thence also the

16 Serbian people out of Yugoslavia by force, we hereby issue these

17 instructions detailing the common tasks, measures and other activities to

18 be carried out within the framework of the national community of the

19 Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina for the purpose of implementing the

20 decision adopted in a plebiscite by the Serbian people of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina to live in a single state, both in the present

22 conditions or in any other conditions or circumstances that may arise in

23 view of the development of the overall political and security situation."

24 And it goes on to say things such as the purpose of the task, measures and

25 other activities set forth in these instructions is to enhance the

Page 18788












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13 English transcripts.













Page 18789

1 mobility and readiness to protect the interests of the Serbian people.

2 The rest of the document then lays out a scheme of measures to be

3 taken by Serbian-controlled municipalities in various stages. The

4 document makes a distinction between what it calls Variant A

5 municipalities and Variant B municipalities. Variant A municipalities are

6 those municipalities which the SDS controls politically, that is in which

7 there is a Serbian majority, and variant B municipalities are those

8 municipalities in which the Serbs were not in the majority. The most

9 important thing that is ordered immediately in both sets of municipalities

10 is the establishment of a Crisis Staff. For instance, we see on page 3 of

11 the translation, under the discussion of the Variant A municipalities and

12 in the first level of measures that it should take, the following

13 provision: SDS municipal boards shall establish immediately Crisis

14 Staffs of the Serbian people in the municipality --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Treanor. Ms. Sutherland, we've

16 heard about this document I would say in abundance, in the early stages

17 of this trial. Do we have to go through this again?

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated] No, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you just go to the back page?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry. Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I can understand it becoming part of the submissions

23 that the Prosecution and the Defence will eventually make but going

24 through the document again to tell us what we already know, I mean, I

25 think it is an unnecessary exercise which is taking up precious time.

Page 18790

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: We weren't going to do that.

2 Q. Mr. Treanor if you could just go to the back page of this copy

3 number 93?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And we can see that on the face of this, there is going to be

6 copies 93, copy 93 A is going to Stojan in Gorazde; 93 B to Mico; 93 C

7 states Banja Luka-Stojan. And so on and so forth, the 93 D, E and F.

8 A. Yes, that's correct. This appears to be a list of officials in

9 the Serbian officials in the Ministry of Internal Affairs who were to

10 receive copies of this document.

11 Q. And then just quickly at the bottom, there is also just a

12 reference to the fact that regions have been proclaimed in the assembly?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document. Could you now be

15 shown a new document? It's an intercept of the 22nd of January, 1992,

16 between Radovan Karadzic and Mr. Cizmovic, and it's disclosure 2.540.

17 Mr. Treanor, is the reference in this intercept to Crisis

18 Staffs --

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that could be marked, Your Honour, P2367?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It will be marked as suggested by Ms. Sutherland.

21 However, later on when we come to the next witness and to the large number

22 of intercepts, I will be going -- I will be making an order, issuing an

23 order, that all these intercept transcripts will be admitted on a very

24 provisional basis, very much along the lines that was followed by

25 Judge May in the Milosevic case when the matter arose in September of last

Page 18791

1 year, and then at some later point in time, we will have a full-blown

2 debate on the admissibility of the totality of the intercepts or any of

3 them, as may become applicable at the time. So they are not as such being

4 admitted without any caveat, all right?

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Treanor, have you found the relevant portion?

7 A. Yes. I would remind the Court that Mr. Cizmovic had been

8 appointed on the 21st of December, 1991, by the Assembly of the Serbian

9 People to be the coordinator for Serbian autonomous districts and as a

10 minister without portfolio in the government. This conversation with

11 Radovan Karadzic relates to his affairs in that role, primarily activities

12 in the Bosnian Krajina region. At the bottom of page 6 of the

13 translation, Cizmovic tells Karadzic: "We have formed a Crisis Staff

14 tonight which is to operate in such cases when we cannot gather anybody so

15 that they can gather first." Karadzic: "Excellent." Cizmovic: "So the

16 thing is functioning because a purpose has to be fulfilled, and

17 instruction has to be fulfilled." Karadzic: "Yes, I agree."

18 The reference to the instruction is quite likely a reference to

19 the 19 December instructions that we just saw.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's your assessment?

21 THE WITNESS: My assessment is that it's quite likely.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, I've finished with that document.

23 Q. Did the SDS convene a meeting on the 14th of February, 1992?

24 A. Yes, indeed.

25 Q. And where was the meeting held and who attended the meeting?

Page 18792

1 A. This was one of a series of meetings that I mentioned yesterday,

2 periodic meetings of large numbers of SDS officials. It was held in

3 Sarajevo. There was a meeting held on the 14th of February of those

4 officials and then on the 15th of February, there was an official session

5 of the Assembly of the Serbian People. Many of the out of town guests or

6 attendees of the meeting stayed at the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo which is

7 back where the headquarters of the offices of the Serbian Democratic Party

8 were located.

9 Q. If the witness can be shown another document? This is part of

10 disclosure 2. -- or is disclosure 2.548.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it would be helpful if terms of me

13 finding these documents if instead of a disclosure number I could get a

14 date of the document or --

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: I was just going to say that, Mr. Ackerman.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Or some other kind of description. A disclosure

17 number doesn't help me at all.

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's the hotel receipts from the Holiday Inn in

19 Sarajevo dated the 15th of February, 1992.

20 Q. Very briefly, Mr. Treanor, what you have in front of you, is this

21 the cover bill from the hotel -- Holiday Inn hotel and a number of

22 receipts? First of all, do you recall how many people attended the

23 meeting on the 14th of February?

24 A. No, I don't recall the number of attendees.

25 Q. Attached within that document, there are a number of receipts of

Page 18793

1 persons from the Autonomous Region of Krajina; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. This appears to be -- the cover document appears to be a

3 covering bill, letter, if you will, sent by the hotel to the SDS,

4 attaching the individual bills of the SDS officials that stayed at the

5 hotel.

6 Q. We can see that the total bill was for 158 million 166 thousand

7 dinars.

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, there were 69 receipts. We have

9 only provided 31 because they were the members of the ARK region and I

10 would ask that that be given Exhibit P2368.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So that will be P2368, Madam Registrar. Am I

12 correct in saying that in each individual statement, there is an

13 indication that it is to be paid by the SDS?

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't understand the relevance of

17 this. Is there some contention by anyone that these people didn't attend

18 the meeting? I don't know why we are just --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't ask me, Mr. Ackerman.


21 Q. Did Mr. Brdjanin attend this meeting, Mr. Treanor?

22 A. Apparently he did on the basis of the fact that there is a receipt

23 in this bundle bearing his name.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: The only relevance that I see is that your client

25 was there allegedly according to these receipts together with people that

Page 18794












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13 English transcripts.













Page 18795

1 have been mentioned, other persons that have been mentioned in the course

2 of the various testimonies that we have heard. Some of them very recent.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, that someone spent the night in the Holiday

4 Inn doesn't have any -- doesn't prove they attended any meeting of any

5 kind. I just can't see that these have any relevance at all.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I fully agree with you. I know of many persons who

7 book in a hotel allegedly to attend meetings and then never show up at the

8 meetings so I fully agree with you, Mr. Ackerman.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, evidence will be given at a later

10 stage about --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Probably another intercept?

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly because the proceedings of that meeting

14 were intercepted as well, and there is a transcript.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness could be shown another document,

16 this is part of disclosure 7.283 and it's one page of a diary dated the

17 14th of February, 1992 and if that could be marked P2369?

18 Q. Very quickly, Mr. Treanor, is this --

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Just a minute, I really would like to be able to

20 find these documents before we very quickly have Mr. Treanor talk about

21 them. How can I find this document?

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: I apologise, Mr. Ackerman.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have a spare copy which you can give to

24 Mr. Ackerman here and now? I am having the same difficulty as he is

25 encountering. I am surrounded by hundreds of papers here and it's ...

Page 18796


2 Q. Sir, this is one page taken from a diary and it's dated the 14th

3 of February, 1992. Does it have a reference there to the meeting that was

4 held in Sarajevo on that day?

5 A. Yes, it does. This is apparently notes that were taken at a

6 meeting of the local executive board in -- apparently relating -- a report

7 that was given at that meeting about what happened at the meeting in

8 Sarajevo.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour I object. I have no idea whose diary

11 this is. It's not been authenticated in any way to my knowledge. It's

12 just a piece of paper that is represented to -- by the Prosecutor to be a

13 diary but I don't think a Prosecutor's representation as to what a

14 document is sufficient to make it admissible.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman is perfectly right. You have to

16 indicate at least which diary we are referring to, whether this is a diary

17 that we have had before us already. If necessary, we even send the

18 witness out for a few minutes until we clear that up. But even I want to

19 know which diary or whose diary we are talking about.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may we go into private session?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session. By all means.

22 [Private session]

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 18797

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session. Let's proceed. Are you

12 satisfied, Mr. Ackerman?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm satisfied that it's not admissible today

14 but could be when it's authenticated later.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. And in fact it's not being admitted

16 today obviously.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's provisionally marked, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's being made use of, provisionally marked, yes.

19 Go ahead.


21 Q. Mr. Treanor, I'm sorry, with that --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You were asking Mr. Treanor to tell us what

23 according to him that is all about. And he said that he sees it as a sort

24 of resume of the decisions taken in the course of that meeting.


Page 18798

1 Q. Is there any reference in -- on that page to what is contained in

2 the Crisis Staff instructions of the 19th of December, 1991?

3 A. Yes, there is a such a reference. The diary notes that -- makes

4 reference to an SDS assembly in Sarajevo at 1745 hours and notes a

5 keynote address by Dr. Karadzic and the first point noted is activate

6 second degree, which is apparently a reference to the 19 December

7 document.

8 Q. Thank you, I've finished with that document.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P1157? And to

10 speed things up the next two exhibit numbers will be P157 and P50.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to give it a number, this last document,

12 extract from the document, from the diary that we saw.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: We provisionally marked it P2369.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's proceed.


16 Q. These are minutes of a meeting held of the Prijedor municipal SDS

17 board on the 17th of February, 1992. Does these minutes make reference to

18 the meeting that was held in Sarajevo on the 14th of February?

19 A. Yes, they do.

20 Q. Could you briefly tell the Court what was -- what is stated in the

21 minutes in relation to that?

22 A. The minutes indicate that Simo Miskovic who was the president of

23 the SDS municipal board gave a briefing on the meeting held in Sarajevo.

24 That's at the top of the page. It's under item 1 on the agenda. And then

25 further down the page, at the bottom of the translation that I have here,

Page 18799

1 it notes that the Serbs shall not participate in any way in the referendum

2 conducted by the SDA. In view of that it is necessary to activate the

3 second level of the position held by the SDS main board. This again

4 appears to be a reference to the second level that's described in the 19

5 December document, 19 December instructions.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, I've finished with that document.

7 Could the witness be shown Exhibit P157?

8 Q. This is the excerpt of instructions dated the 26th of April,

9 1992. Was this what you were referring to earlier in your testimony?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And does that instruction include the instruction that in times of

12 war, the Crisis Staff takes over all prerogatives and functions of

13 municipal assemblies whenever they are not able to convene?

14 A. Yes, that's the first paragraph of what is described as an extract

15 from the instructions on the work of Crisis Staffs of the Serbian people

16 in the municipalities.

17 Q. If I can take you --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I put it to you that this was not

19 something out of the ordinary in the history of the former Yugoslavia,

20 because the provision for Crisis Staffs in times of emergency existed

21 before and the whole purpose was precisely in any state of emergency, such

22 as floods, earthquakes and whatever, and war, that the Crisis Staff would

23 assume all such prerogatives and functions. Am I correct?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, we described yesterday some of the provisions

25 relating to emergency situations and the exercise of emergency powers by

Page 18800












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13 English transcripts.













Page 18801

1 various bodies, usually the Presidency or expanded Presidency of the given

2 level of government.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you in this particular document now, do you see

4 anything out of the ordinary, something which is quite an addition to the

5 powers that the Crisis Staff would have had under the law as it previously

6 was implemented?

7 THE WITNESS: Well, what is unusual here is the fact that these

8 Crisis Staffs in this -- this document explicitly refers to Crisis Staffs

9 of the Serbian people, which is -- are the Crisis Staffs established by

10 the 19 December instructions from the SDS main board. That is these are

11 bodies which were established by a political party to be composed of

12 officials of that party and nominees of that party for various

13 administrative functions, either nominees or actually exercising a

14 function or their candidate for that position where that position was in

15 fact being filled by a member of another party. What is usual, as Your

16 Honour pointed out, is that these bodies are being given precisely the

17 types of powers that are given to official bodies in emergency situations.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want to for the record say that

20 I am quite certain that this is a document that was objected to when it

21 originally came up. I think it has -- it certainly has no signature, no

22 stamp or anything like that and I think it's provenance is dubious but I

23 don't remember for certain. I'm quite certain we objected to it.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for your remark, Mr. Ackerman.


Page 18802

1 Q. Mr. Treanor could I take to you paragraph 3?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That's dealing with the defence, security and establishment of

4 power, is it not?

5 A. Paragraph 3 reads, "The Crisis Staff coordinates the functions of

6 authorities in order to ensure the defence of the territories, the safety

7 of the population and property, the establishment of government and the

8 organisation of all other areas of life and work. In doing so the Crisis

9 Staff provides the conditions for the municipal executive committee to

10 exercise legal authority, run the economy and other areas of life."

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Allow me, please, to make -- put one question, which

12 I consider very important. So the bottom line of all this is, if I read

13 it well, that in those municipalities where the SDS was already in a

14 majority, in the municipal assembly, the Crisis Staff, which is being

15 created now, of the Serbian people would, for all intents and purposes,

16 assume all the prerogatives and functions of that particular municipal

17 assembly, without, however, there being a representation, in this Crisis

18 Staff, of the minorities? Would that be correct?


20 JUDGE AGIUS: And in the municipalities where the SDS was a

21 minority, the Crisis Staff of the Serbian people would assume all the

22 prerogatives and functions of the municipal assembly where it was a

23 minority, take over all these prerogatives and functions which the

24 municipal assembly would be unable to convene, and those who constituted

25 the majority in the municipal assembly would have absolutely no say in the

Page 18803

1 Crisis Staff? Would that also be a correct statement according to you?


3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Ms. Sutherland.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I note the time. Just before we

5 have the break, Your Honour, just before we break, Mr. Ackerman said this

6 document had been objected to by the Defence. In fact it was used by

7 Mr. Trbojevic in his cross-examination of one of the Prosecution

8 witnesses. I can -- BT79.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You see, Mr. Ackerman, you're still carrying a

10 ghost.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I said I thought we objected to it.

12 I'm not certain. And I said I wasn't certain. But still that doesn't

13 mean we didn't object to it either.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. Irrespective of the fact that it was

15 used by Mr. Trbojevic, I can assure you, that if the Trial Chamber is not

16 satisfied with the authenticity of this document, it will not give it any

17 consideration. We will have a 25-minute break, resuming at 11.00 now. I

18 don't know if you need Mr. Treanor any more now. You have another two

19 witnesses between today until tomorrow.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. I think I well have maximum

21 half an hour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. But you have, I assume, sat down

23 with Mr. Ackerman to see how you're going to share the time between you so

24 we finish these two witnesses by tomorrow and we don't have any of them

25 staying over the weekend.

Page 18804

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I've discussed that with Ms. Korner

2 and Mr. Koumjian. Mr. Koumjian is actually leading the witnesses. We

3 were determining whether we would finish the three witnesses within today,

4 Friday and Monday.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you anyway. Thank you. 11.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. May I just begin by

10 saying that I have discussed the remainder of Mr. Treanor's evidence with

11 Ms. Korner and I will be a little -- I will take longer than half an hour

12 but we will work out our witnesses to the end of the case as we do.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not going to interfere.

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you look at this document? This is a new

16 document, it is disclosure 3.473, it's the document dated the 4th of

17 April, 1992, issued by Dr. Karadzic. If it can be provisionally marked

18 P2370? Is this a public announcement issued on behalf of the National

19 Defence Council by the council president, Radovan Karadzic?

20 A. Yes, it is. This is a document that we referred to earlier.

21 Q. And does it state there that if the Bosnia and Herzegovina

22 Presidency I'm paraphrasing now, tries to mobilise Bosnia-Herzegovina

23 reserve police, civilian protection or TO, then the Serbian Crisis Staffs

24 should activate and mobilise Serbian reserve police, civilian protection,

25 and TO?

Page 18805

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you, I've finished with that document?

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown another document, new

4 document disclosure 3.13 A?

5 Q. And this is dated the 5th of May, 1992, and it's setting up the

6 ARK Crisis Staff.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, could it be marked P2371? We have

8 the official gazetted version of this decision which is part of Exhibit

9 P227. However, this is a document which is -- which is issued by whom,

10 Mr. Treanor?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: I know council is in a hurry but could we not start

14 asking questions until I've at least found the document or decided I don't

15 have it or something. Because I cannot deal with these things the way we

16 are doing it.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Have you found it?

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. I've found it. Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Please proceed.

20 Mr. Treanor?

21 THE WITNESS: This is a document of the executive council of the

22 Autonomous Region of Krajina signed by Nikola Erceg as president and it

23 records a decision by that council on the 5th of May to establish a war

24 staff for the Autonomous Region of Krajina and the members of that war

25 staff are mentioned and the president and vice-presidents of the war staff

Page 18806

1 are specified, Radoslav Brdjanin as president and Lieutenant Colonel

2 Milorad Sajic as vice-president.


4 Q. And this document lists 15 members of the Crisis Staff?

5 A. Yes, in addition to those two individuals, 13 other members are

6 named by or are given by name for a total of 15 people.

7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown - keeping that

8 document there - can the witness be shown P168 and then P227?

9 Q. Mr. Treanor, this is also a document dated the 5th of May, 1992,

10 dealing with the setting up of the ARK Crisis Staff. However, this

11 document differs. Can you explain to the Court the differences between

12 the two documents?

13 A. Yes. These two documents appear to me to be the same typed

14 document. They appear to be set up in the same manner. The stamp and the

15 signature seem to be in the same place. The type face and one is a little

16 bit darker than the other. I don't know why that might be. It could be

17 for any number of reasons. The typed text of the two documents is the

18 same. However, the second document bears some handwritten notations at

19 the bottom of the list of the 15 members of the Crisis Staff adding

20 numbers 16 and 17. Number 16 according to the translation reads

21 presidents of RP municipalities. Now, I believe that RP stands for Ratno

22 Predsjednistvo that is War Presidency. So I believe that number 16 in

23 effect reads presidents of the War Presidencies of the municipalities.

24 And number 17 is according to the translation illegible and only a very

25 few letters of it are legible to me at all and at this point I cannot make

Page 18807

1 much sense of it either. That's the difference between the two documents,

2 the two handwritten notations, the additions of number 16 and 17.

3 Q. And then if we can go to Exhibit P227, which is the Official

4 Gazette of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, published on the 5th of June,

5 1992, and if you go to the second decision within the gazette?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And looking at the two previous documents, and this decision, we

8 can see that next to number 16 is Djuro Bulic, and number 17 is Nedjeljko

9 Kesic?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. Which is different from what is in the handwritten document, P168?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Just looking through Exhibit P227, which is the Official Gazette,

14 there are a number of decisions signed by Nikola Erceg as president of the

15 executive council --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour the Official Gazette contains no

17 signatures so --

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, signature block of Nikola Erceg.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, has Mr. Trbojevic made use of it,

20 Ms. Sutherland?

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm not sure, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll check later.


24 Q. For example, there is decision number 5 within the gazette, which

25 deals with the decree on organising enterprises from parts of the work

Page 18808

1 process dated the 9th of May, 1992?

2 A. That's item number 5?

3 Q. Yes. And item -- sorry, item number 19, decision on restricting

4 the payments of certain expenses and salaries as a temporary measure in

5 wartime conditions. And then the following decision, number 20, decision

6 on the rate of turnover tax on goods and services and the distribution of

7 revenue from the turnover tax on goods and services?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. These are issued in -- as the executive council issuing these

10 decisions. As you stated yesterday, LiveNote on page 43, that in an

11 emergency situation, the executive committee would report to the

12 Presidency, when we were talking about the assembly, and that the

13 president of the executive committee would be a member of the expanded

14 presidency in those situations --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then you talked a little bit I think this morning about the bodies

17 being set up in an emergency situation. In relation to this, what is your

18 understanding of the executive committee in relation to the Crisis Staff?

19 A. Well, I would have to say that given the pre-war regulations which

20 I reviewed briefly yesterday and given the instructions on the

21 establishment of the Crisis Staffs of the Serbian people, both the 19

22 December instructions and the 26 April extract, that the executive

23 committee is a -- reports to the Crisis Staff as the replacement for the

24 assembly. Indeed the 26th April instructions make reference to the fact

25 that one of the duties of the Crisis Staff is to enable the executive

Page 18809

1 committee to carry out its functions. The 19 December instructions

2 specify that one of the members of the Crisis Staff is indeed to be the

3 president of the executive committee, if that person happens to be a

4 member of the SDS, if not, then their nominee for that position basically.

5 And we see that on the -- from the 5 May, 1992 decision on establishing

6 the war staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, that Nikola Erceg is in

7 fact a member of that body.

8 Q. Yes. And we can also see too I think that Nenad Stevandic is a

9 member of the Crisis Staff?

10 A. Yes, Nenad Stevandic is a member who has been mentioned in the

11 course of this testimony.

12 Q. And I think --

13 A. Also Stojan Zupljanin, who we've mentioned.

14 Q. And Nedjeljko Kesic was in an exhibit I showed you yesterday in

15 relation to Mr. Brdjanin signing on behalf of ZOBK and the personnel

16 commission and Mr. Vukic for the SDS regional board in relation to his

17 appointment?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you I've finished with those documents for

20 now but leave Exhibit 227 with the witness, please.

21 THE WITNESS: Sorry, but in fact, I don't see --


23 Q. I think if you go to the decision that's contained within the

24 Official Gazette?

25 A. Yes, all right. Yes, there are three versions of this document

Page 18810

1 and the published version is where Mr. Kesic's name appears, yes, number

2 17.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the first document, with only 15

4 names on it, if that can be marked as P2371? Then the document with the

5 15 typed names and the two handwritten names is P168. And then obviously

6 we have the Official Gazette version with 17 names as P227.

7 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you look at -- in Exhibit P227, if you can go to

8 the decision of the 14th of May, 1992?

9 A. This is the gazette?

10 Q. Yes, 03-319/92?

11 A. Which item number is it?

12 Q. It's item number 10.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour would it be more appropriate perhaps

14 to mark one as Exhibit P168.1, the first list of 15 names?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's up to you. I remember from more than a year

16 ago, we also had a problem with that list in that one of the persons whose

17 name was indicated was wrongly indicated, and in fact he was substituted

18 by another.

19 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's been revised. That was in Exhibit P227.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. Then there is -- that list is revised by

21 substituting that person, if I remember, it was Maljankovic or something,

22 I don't remember the name.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your memory is not bad. Mujanic. What

24 happened if we go to --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Give it any number you like, Ms. Sutherland,

Page 18811

1 provided you don't confuse Mr. Ackerman's mind.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: I can deal with it this way, Your Honour. We

3 will keep them as separate numbers, P2371, lists at number 11, Dr. Rajko

4 Kuzmanovic, and then you can see in Exhibit P227 the fourth decision in

5 the Official Gazette on the 8th of May, Professor Dragolub Mujanic is

6 hereby appointed a new member of the war staff of the Autonomous Region of

7 Krajina replacing Rajko Kuzmanovic. And when we have the Official

8 Gazette, when we had that translated, initially, Rajko Kuzmanovic's name

9 was in that translation and it was a wrong translation and we had that

10 revised to show Drago Mujanic. That's where the confusion arose.



13 Q. So Mr. Treanor looking at the 10th decision in P227, it is

14 conclusions of the Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff of a meeting

15 held on the 14th of May. And conclusion number 1 states that "The

16 security services centre of the Autonomous Region of Krajina is to fully

17 implement the decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of

18 Krajina on disarming paramilitary units or individuals in unlawful

19 possession of weapons and ammunition."

20 A. Yes, that's correct. I'd like to point out here that in these

21 decisions, as in many other documents we see, the term Crisis Staff being

22 used rather than war staff. In fact they seem to be used interchangeably

23 in the documents, although I think the term Crisis Staff tends to

24 predominate.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P202?

Page 18812

1 Q. Sir, this is a document dated the 20th of May, 1992, and it's

2 conclusions reached at the expanded meeting of the centre council held on

3 the 6th of May, 1992. And this document is a telex from the Banja Luka

4 security services centre, with the signature block chief of the centre

5 Stojan Zupljanin?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. If I could take to you paragraph 23 --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Probably just misspoke but the document I have is

10 dated 21 May, 1992, not 20 May.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's been handwritten in the top right-hand

12 corner but the actual date of the document is the 20th of May.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Does that satisfy you, Mr. Ackerman?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I see what you are referring to now. I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.


17 Q. Sir, can you read paragraph 23?

18 A. Yes, let me find it in the official translation here.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Just want to make sure you can read, Mr. Treanor,

20 that's all.

21 THE WITNESS: Paragraph 23: "In all our activities we are obliged

22 to observe all measures and apply all procedures ordered by the Crisis

23 Staff of the autonomous region."


25 Q. And the following paragraph?

Page 18813

1 A. "With regard to disarmament when the deadline for weapons

2 surrender expires on 11 May, 1992, you should take no action until the

3 Crisis Staff makes the relevant decisions. It is very important that we

4 solve this problem comprehensively, insisting on the disarmament of

5 extremist groups."

6 Q. And this document is sent to chief of the National Security

7 Service and SJB sectors, the chief, all departments at the CSB and all

8 public security stations in the region except Jajce; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. And so basically, does this document show the implementation of

11 the ARK Crisis Staff decision of the 11th of -- 14th of May?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it refers there to -- no --

14 A. Of the 11th of May, decision of the 11th of May.

15 Q. Sorry, that's just what I was about to take you to. Could you now

16 look at Exhibit P198? Mr. Treanor, that's the document dated the 15th of

17 May, 1992, the instructions for the organisation of a duty operations

18 rota, in the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and

19 municipality Crisis Staffs?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Is there any reference in that document to implementation of

22 orders issued by the Crisis Staff?

23 A. On the first page of the instructions themselves, under number --

24 letter A, we read that "One of the aims of introducing the duty operations

25 rota is to ensure the direct monitoring of the situation in the civilian

Page 18814

1 sector in the AR Krajina and additional instructions for the

2 implementation of conclusions, decisions and orders by Crisis Staffs."

3 Q. Looking at the next exhibit, P197, that's dated the 15th of May,

4 1992 and it's entitled list of issues on which reports should be submitted

5 and information provided to all concerned.

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. I'm sorry, just going back to Exhibit P198, who is the author of

8 that document?

9 A. On page 4 of the document, there is a signature over a signature

10 block which reads, president of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region

11 of Krajina, Radoslav Brdjanin.

12 Q. Thank you, now going to Exhibit P197, the list of issues, who is

13 the author of that document?

14 A. We see at the end of that document two signature blocks and a

15 seal, there is only one signature visible to me on the copy that I have

16 and on the copy on the screen, which is under the signature block which

17 reads, president of the Crisis Staff, Radoslav Brdjanin.

18 Q. What sorts of issues and how often are people supposed to report

19 to the Crisis Staff?

20 A. Well, paragraph 1 of the order specifies according to the official

21 translation, "In order to ensure continual insight into the situation on

22 the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina in a framework for

23 adopting decisions by the Crisis Staff, the municipal organs are required

24 to report to the district organs and they should report to the Autonomous

25 Region of Krajina Crisis Staff operative on duty, via the district

Page 18815

1 reporting centre on the following issues," and the first issue specified

2 is the implementing -- implementing orders issued by the Autonomous Region

3 of Krajina Crisis Staff, namely what is achieved, what was not achieved

4 and why it was not achieved. It specifies reporting on this issue should

5 be regular, at intervals specified in the order, decision or conclusion,

6 and in special cases to the operative on duty when there are difficulties

7 or confusion in the implementation of orders and it goes on to specify

8 some other issues such as mobilisation, appearance of sabotage groups and

9 the like.

10 Q. Thank you, I've finished with those documents. You mentioned

11 briefly a moment ago that the war staff and Crisis Staff being used

12 interchangeably. After the 5th of May, 1992, did Radovan Karadzic issue

13 any decisions with respect to the Crisis Staffs?

14 A. Yes. There is a decision on the 31st of May.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P222 and then

16 also to have ready P267? Or 269. I'm sorry, 269.

17 Q. Mr. Treanor, is that the document you're referring to? The

18 document you have in front of you is Exhibit P222 dated the 31st of May,

19 1992. Is that the document you just referred to?

20 A. Yes, this is the decision of the 31st of May, 1992. It is a

21 decision of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 That Presidency had been established on the 12th of May, 1992. And the

23 decision is signed or that is in the gazette bears a signature block with

24 the name of Radovan Karadzic as president of the Presidency of the Serbian

25 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 18816

1 Q. On your review of documentation, did the Crisis Staffs turn

2 into -- sorry, were War Presidencies formed within the municipalities, to

3 your knowledge, on reviewing the documents?

4 A. First of all, let me say that this document specifies that in

5 Article 1 that War Presidencies shall be formed in municipalities of the

6 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina where the assembly and executive

7 organs are unable to exercise their authority. Article 2 goes on to

8 specify the composition of the War Presidencies. Interesting in this

9 connection, in related directly to your question, is the second paragraph

10 of Article 5 which specifies that the day War Presidencies are

11 established, Crisis Staffs shall cease to operate in municipalities across

12 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now, on the basis of the

13 documents that are available to me, I have seen that this transfer --

14 transformation from Crisis Staffs to War Presidencies does take place but

15 not immediately and not even necessarily very soon after this decision.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland, and I put it to you and correct

17 me if I'm wrong, Mr. Treanor, that if you have reviewed the minutes of the

18 various Crisis Staff in the municipalities -- in the region, you also find

19 that some Crisis Staff decided at a certain point in time to continue

20 operating but under -- renaming themselves as the war staff, instead of

21 having a war staff being created and then replacing the Crisis Staff, the

22 Crisis Staff decides to continue operating under a new name, namely the

23 war staff.

24 THE WITNESS: There is quite a bit of variation in what happens in

25 the localities for which we have documentation and I would again emphasise

Page 18817

1 as I mentioned yesterday that we do not have all the relevant

2 documentation from all the municipalities. So it's very difficult to

3 paint a complete picture, if not impossible, and -- but on the basis of

4 the documents we do have we do see variation in the process and we but we

5 do see the establishment of the War Presidencies so-called in this

6 document occurring in some localities but usually after the elapse of

7 several weeks after the adoption of this decision.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have a -- I think what is an

10 objection. It's that there is a tendency going on to mix apples and

11 oranges here that I'm concerned about. This exhibit followed immediately

12 after an exhibit dealing with the ARK Crisis Staff and that it was calling

13 itself a Crisis Staff, and then this exhibit seemed to have been presented

14 to you as some authority for the proposition that Karadzic ordered the

15 renaming of Crisis Staffs but this document only deals with municipal

16 Crisis Staffs, it says nothing about regional Crisis Staffs, in fact I

17 don't think there is any authority for regional Crisis Staffs in any of

18 the laws, frankly.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, point taken. One moment, Ms. Sutherland, but

20 the question -- we have to go back to the question which Ms. Sutherland

21 put to the witness, and the question was a very specific one: Did

22 Mr. Karadzic at any time issue an order for the replacement of Crisis

23 Staffs in the municipality -- in the municipalities? So I think the

24 placing of this document as a point of reference to the witness is

25 perfectly correct. Ms. Sutherland has obviously taken your point as

Page 18818

1 well. If you want to draw a distinction between the Crisis Staff, the

2 various Crisis Staffs in the region and the regional Crisis Staff, the ARK

3 Crisis Staff, then obviously you're free to do so but I'm not going to

4 tell you what to do.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. No. It was a different

6 topic. I asked the question did Karadzic issue any decisions with respect

7 to Crisis Staffs, and you mentioned the 31st of May and then I took you to

8 this document.

9 Q. Are you aware of any other decisions issued by Mr. Karadzic in

10 relation to Crisis Staffs, War Presidencies, or the like?

11 A. Yes. There is an additional decision on this matter of a similar

12 nature issued on the 10th of June, 1992.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P269?

14 Q. Is that the document you were referring to?

15 A. Yes. This is a decision issued by the Presidency of the Serbian

16 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 10th of June, 1992, decision number

17 01-33/92. Again the signature block bears the name of Dr. Radovan

18 Karadzic as president of the Presidency of the Serbian republic.

19 Q. And what is the decision concerning?

20 A. This decision relates to the formation of war commissions in

21 municipalities during an imminent threat of war or a state of war.

22 Article 1 specifies that war commissions shall be formed in war-afflicted

23 municipalities in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina or where

24 there is a threat of war. Article 2 specifies that a war commission shall

25 consist of a republic commissioner and four members chosen from among the

Page 18819

1 most prominent citizens on Crisis Staffs, the business communities and the

2 ruling party.

3 Q. Are you aware of any war commissions being set up in the

4 Autonomous Region of Krajina?

5 A. On the basis of the documentation that I've reviewed, no.

6 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document. I now want to turn

7 to the section 5 of your report, which was written by Mr. Aguirre. That

8 section and the appendices deal with the municipal implementation of ARK

9 Crisis Staff directives?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. I would like to show you a number of documents, though, issued by

12 the security services centre Banja Luka, the CSB in relation to the

13 implementation of ARK Crisis Staff decisions. And I've asked the

14 Registrar to have those exhibits in one pile and if we can go through them

15 very quickly. We have already looked at Exhibit P202, where Mr. Zupljanin

16 is saying we are obliged to observe all measures and apply all procedures

17 ordered by the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region. If you can look now

18 at Exhibit P1406, followed by P240, P272, P294, P1288 and P955, and the

19 list has already been provided, looking at P --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman needs more time. He needs more time.

21 MS. SUTHERLAND: I apologise again, Mr. Ackerman.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Alternatively --

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: They could go on the ELMO.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: They could go on the ELMO but again, I mean, we find

25 it difficult to catch up with the rhythm of finding the documents

Page 18820

1 ourselves. So...

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the English version could be placed on the

3 ELMO for Mr. Ackerman and the Judges?

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have it, it just takes me a while, I

5 can't go quite as fast as she wants to go, that's all.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm trying to help you, Mr. Ackerman.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much, I appreciate it. If

8 Ms. Sutherland could just wait until I let her know I've found the

9 document before she starts questioning about it, that will solve the whole

10 problem.


12 Q. Mr. Treanor, looking at Exhibit P406, and this is issued by

13 Zupljanin from the CSB to all chiefs of -- to chiefs of all public

14 security stations?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And it's a decision regard to the above dispatch related to the

17 action from item 5 of the decision by the war staff of the Autonomous

18 Region of Krajina adopted on the 4th of May, "We hereby inform that you on

19 the 11th of May, 1992, the war staff of the ARK in its expanded form

20 together with the presidents of the National Defence councils of the

21 municipal assemblies adopted a decision to move the implementation of the

22 measures ordered in item 5 of the aforementioned decision to 2400 hours on

23 the 15th of May, 1992."

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Basically this is informing all the SJBs of this ARK Crisis

Page 18821

1 Staff decision?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If we look at Exhibit P240, it is a document dated the 12th of

4 June, issued by again Stojan Zupljanin, CSB, to all chiefs of the public

5 security stations and this is a telex stating "The Crisis Staff of the

6 Autonomous Region of Krajina has adopted the following decision, and then

7 sets out a decision given on -- at its meeting on the 10th of June, 1992,

8 about only women, children and old people may voluntarily, that is of

9 their own free will, leave the Autonomous Region of Krajina."

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. And the final -- the paragraph: "You are to bring the staff of

12 your public security station -- you are to brief the staff of your public

13 security station about this decision and arrange for the required

14 cooperation with the humanitarian organisations in your area for its

15 implementation." If we look now at Exhibit P272 --

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Thank you. Again sent by Zupljanin to all SJBs, "The Crisis Staff

18 of the Autonomous Region of Krajina has adopted the following decision

19 which we will give you in full" and then it lists the decision on

20 the 22nd of June, 1992, 03-531/92, about all posts and within that

21 decision it states "These posts may not be held by employees of Serbian

22 nationality who have not confirmed that at the plebiscite or who in their

23 minds are not yet ideologically --" I'm sorry, it goes on. That's again

24 showing -- telling the SJBs about a decision --

25 A. Which decision are we looking at?

Page 18822

1 Q. Exhibit P272.

2 A. Yes. And the paragraph?

3 Q. At the beginning, it is setting out a decision, the Crisis Staff

4 of the Autonomous Region of Krajina --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it sets out the decision for all of the SJBs.

7 A. On the 22nd of June, yes.

8 Q. And then is it towards the end of that decision, before

9 Zupljanin's signature block --

10 A. At the very end of the document, yes.

11 Q. What is it stating there after the decision is set out in full and

12 it's signed off by the President Radoslav Brdjanin?

13 A. After the signature?

14 Q. After the signature -- after the decision is set out in full, the

15 decision of the ARK Crisis Staff, of the 22nd of June, 1992 -- can I have

16 the English version of that document, please?

17 A. I need the English version of the document.

18 Q. Sorry, I'm sorry. That's the problem that I was having because

19 the exhibit is not complete, Your Honour. That's why I was having trouble

20 taking Mr. Treanor to the correct part, and that's why he was having

21 trouble finding it because the entire decision is -- that the exhibit is

22 not complete. I will move on?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record, Ms. Sutherland, before showing

24 or referring the witness to Exhibit 240, did you refer him to Exhibit P406

25 or to Exhibit P1406?

Page 18823


2 JUDGE AGIUS: Because in the transcript it shows P406. We are

3 correcting that. It should be P1406.

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed.

6 MS. SUTHERLAND: I will move on from the exhibit that is

7 incomplete.

8 Q. Mr. Treanor, I apologise for that. The document is not complete.

9 If we can look at P294? Exhibit P294?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Again, this is a decision issued by Stojan Zupljanin -- sorry, a

12 dispatch to all SJBs from the -- in the area of responsibility of the

13 centre?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it's sent by Zupljanin and it says, "At its meeting of the

16 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina held on the 3rd of June a

17 decision was made, section 3 of which stipulates as follows." And then it

18 quotes, "Individuals leaving the Autonomous Region of Krajina may take

19 with them a maximum of 300 DM or a corresponding amount of other

20 currency."

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And again, that's informing all SJBs of a Crisis Staff decision,

23 is it not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If we can move now to Exhibit P1288, this is actually sent by Simo

Page 18824

1 Drljaca dated the 5th of July, 1992, from the Prijedor public security

2 station to Banja Luka, and in paragraph 1 in the wake of the order of the

3 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and then we inform you

4 of the following, that's just an example, is it not, where the municipal

5 SJB is reporting back to the CSB?

6 A. Yes, correct.

7 Q. In relation to an ARK Crisis Staff decision?

8 A. Yes, although I have to point out in the copy of the original that

9 I've been provided here, I can see at the bottom it says chief of the SJB

10 Prijedor, but the -- most of the signature has been cut off and there is

11 no typed name.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I think in fairness the last

14 paragraph of the document should be emphasised that he says that it was --

15 the seizure was made in -- pursuant to a decision of the municipal Crisis

16 Staff, not the ARK Crisis Staff.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. Ms. Sutherland?


19 Q. I'm sorry, in paragraph 1 t says in the wake of the order of the

20 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: It says in the wake, not because of, if you look at

22 the last paragraph it says that the authority for the seizure was

23 municipal Crisis Staff.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, and we will -- that is dealt with --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's not involve ourselves into argument,

Page 18825

1 Ms. Sutherland and Mr. Ackerman. The point has been made. It goes on

2 record. Then it's a question of debate at a later stage. So please

3 proceed with your questions. Thank you.


5 Q. If we look at P955, that is purported to be a radio announcement,

6 it is part of the Kljuc municipality binders, and that is the same as

7 P226, Your Honours. And this is entitled, "Information from the Banja

8 Luka public security service centre, clarification has arrived from the

9 Autonomous Region of Krajina government and the Banja Luka security

10 services centre regarding the decision of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

11 War Presidency of 3 June, 1992, that physical persons leaving the

12 Autonomous Region of Krajina can take with them a maximum of 300 DM or

13 other currency equivalent to this amount."

14 A. Yes, that is correct. This document as you said is undated and

15 appears to be a public announcement. In fact at the top in the original

16 it says dispatch of the centre -- of the public security centre of Banja

17 Luka.

18 Q. Thank you. Pages 89 to 111, if -- do you have your addendum

19 report in front of you? And do Your Honours and the Defence have the

20 addendum report? It may make things go a little faster.

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Page 89?

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Pages 89 to 111 contain the index of items of

24 general application issued by the ARK Crisis Staff. And they are numbered

25 1 to 136. Then on pages 112 to 117 of the report, there is a table

Page 18826

1 prepared by Mr. Aguirre which shows an overview of the implementation of

2 the ARK Crisis Staff items of general application by municipal bodies.

3 And then pages 118 to 120 show an index of relevant items and table of

4 implementation in relation to disarmament, dismissals and resettlement.

5 Q. Is that correct?

6 A. Pages 118 to ...

7 Q. 120.

8 A. Yes, there are three tables.

9 Q. I want you to -- I want to take you to just one example within

10 those three tables, to explain to Their Honours and to the Defence how the

11 document is either black or -- is either shaded black in the table or

12 shaded grey. And if we use as an example on table -- on page 119, we can

13 see at the bottom -- and this is dealing with dismissals, the last

14 decision, it's numbered 129, and it's the decision taken on the 22nd of

15 June, 1992, and we can see -- if we then go back to page 109 of your

16 report, that sets out what the decision numbered 129 of the 22nd of June

17 is about?

18 A. Yes, that's correct. That is how to read the table.

19 Q. And we can see on page 109, that in the decision, and that is

20 decision number 03-531/92, it states "Only personnel of Serbian ethnicity

21 may hold executive posts, posts where the information flow is possible and

22 posts involving the protection of socially owned property, that is all

23 posts of importance for the functioning of economic entities." And it

24 goes on to tell you about the decision.

25 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness can be shown Exhibit P254? And

Page 18827

1 then have ready P255, P1294, P1879, and this list has been previously

2 provided.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. While these documents are being prepared, let

4 me ask two short questions to the witness. This part that you are being

5 referred to, Mr. Treanor, was not prepared by you, was not co-authored by

6 you, and was not prepared by your department but by someone outside your

7 department, and you took the decision to incorporate it as a section in

8 your report. My question to you is the following: Yesterday you said

9 that you take full responsibility for what is contained in this section,

10 and I take your word for it. What I want to know is whether you went

11 through the conclusions and the diagrams and the graphs and whatever we

12 have here in this particular section of the report prepared by Mr. Aguirre

13 and whether you are in a position to swear, to confirm on oath, that his

14 conclusions are correct, whether you have verified them and found them to

15 be correct.

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, before the witness answers I was

17 going to provide Your Honour was an updated schedule in relation --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which are these?


20 JUDGE AGIUS: But in the meantime I want to know whether the

21 witness, before coming here, did go through the conclusions reached by

22 Mr. Aguirre and whether he shares those same conclusions, having verified

23 them.

24 THE WITNESS: The section of the report written by Mr. Aguirre

25 consists of two parts, the main text which is section 5 of the report, and

Page 18828

1 then the appendices which relate to that section of the report. I closely

2 read the text of the report, discussed it with Mr. Aguirre, suggested

3 certain changes to clarify certain points, and correct some points to me

4 which seem to be in need of correction. And I reviewed the tables

5 themselves. I did not, however, go back and read every document referred

6 to in the tables.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough.

8 THE WITNESS: And relate them to --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's fair enough. Thank you, Mr. Treanor. Yes,

10 Ms. Sutherland.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, along that same line, Your Honour, it

12 might be useful for future planning to inquire whether in view of what

13 Mr. Treanor has just told you he's actually prepared to be cross-examined

14 in detail about any of the matters contained in these tables that he

15 didn't prepare because that's more important.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: That's more important obviously but that's why I put

17 the question to him yesterday whether he was prepared to assume

18 responsibility for that chapter because if he does then obviously, he

19 cannot decline to be cross-examined.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if my memory serves me correctly,

21 Ms. Korner advised the Court and the Defence, I think you referred to the

22 conversation yesterday morning, that if there was going to be any

23 cross-examination, if Mr. Ackerman was going to take objection to any

24 parts of section 5 in relation to the appendices, then it was Mr. Aguirre

25 who was going to have to be cross-examined on that and not Mr. Treanor.

Page 18829

1 JUDGE AGIUS: In my country, the way -- and in other countries,

2 the way we do it is that if a report is the joint effort of several

3 persons, that other person or persons, or those other persons, can be

4 asked to join in the course of the testimony. They will sit to the right

5 or the left of Mr. Treanor and if there is any part of the report that is

6 being contested on cross-examination, then the other person can be sworn

7 in and the cross-examination directed to him. I would definitely open all

8 doors for you, Ms. Sutherland, for Ms. Korner and for Mr. Ackerman to make

9 that possible. I have tried to get as much information, as much

10 confirmation from Mr. Treanor myself because I have full trust in

11 Mr. Treanor, but if there comes a point when we need Mr. Aguirre, Xavier

12 Aguirre, he had obviously be prepared to bring him over because the way he

13 has answered the question today, it is obvious that there may be some

14 points that only Mr. Aguirre could answer. So I would have absolutely no

15 objection of having him sitting next to him present during the testimony

16 of Mr. Treanor and then being ready to answer any question put to him on

17 cross-examination or even by you or Ms. Korner. All right?

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that agreeable to you, Mr. Ackerman as well.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour, certainly.


22 Q. And in relation to the -- what we have just gone through, the

23 pages 112 to 117 of the addendum, I have an updated list. Your Honour,

24 Mr. Treanor and I discussed the other day showing Your Honour an example

25 from each of the three, disarmament example a dismissal and a resettlement

Page 18830

1 example to show you how the boxes were shaded either black or grey. For

2 time constraints I'm only going to take Mr. Treanor to one but in relation

3 to us discussing the disarmament example that I wanted to use it became

4 apparent that if you look at the report, on page 120 -- sorry, 118, for

5 disarmament, the decision numbered 20, issued by the ARK Crisis Staff on

6 the 11th of May we can see Prijedor black, Sanski Most black, Kljuc black

7 and Kotor Varos black. In fact, when we reviewed the document together it

8 became apparent that that should have been shaded grey. And Mr. Aguirre

9 agreed with that. There was also one in relation to --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So I take it that you are, for all intents and

11 purposes, making a declaration that this new sheet of paper which will be

12 given a number will for all intents and purposes replace page 118 of the

13 report, correct?

14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, correct.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move ahead and go through them one by one, all

16 the replacements, are these also to replace the originals in the report or

17 not?

18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, pages 112 to 117.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Will be replaced by these pages which are

21 numbered 1 to 6.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Perfect. And then you have appendix 4.4.

23 MS. SUTHERLAND: And I've just said about the disarmament one the

24 other one is dismissals when we on page 120, for the -- sorry,

25 resettlement.

Page 18831

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait a bit. Let's go through them one by one.

2 Appendix 4.3, disarmament, this is going to -- first of all what number

3 are you going to give this new entry? P --

4 MS. SUTHERLAND: P2351.1, Your Honour because the report is P2351.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I agree. Then I have appendix 4.4 which is

6 dismissals. And it's taken that P2351 will replace page 118 in the

7 addendum report, correct?

8 MS. SUTHERLAND: 4.4 replaces --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, 4.3, the one we have just marked as an exhibit.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: 4.3 disarmament replaces page --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: 118.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: 118, yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Now appendix 4.4, dismissals, and that replaces page

14 119, I take it.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And it will be marked P2351.2, correct?


18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for agreeing with me, Ms. Gustin. And

19 then there is appendix 4.2, which is overview of implementation of ARK

20 Crisis Staff items of general application, and that starts, I have one,

21 two, three, four, five, six sheets of paper.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, Your Honour that's where I got confused

23 because I thought we marked this, the overview, as the -- as --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And that starts with page 112 through and up to 117,

25 correct?

Page 18832

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And that will be marked P2351.3.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. And now given also that

4 Mr. Treanor and I found these two instances where the black box should

5 have been shaded grey, we undertake to -- Mr. Aguirre undertakes to

6 recheck every box and if there are any further discrepancies we will

7 provide them to the Defence and Your Honours immediately.

8 Q. Now, if we can take, using dismissals as an example, and that

9 was --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: P2351.2, page 119.


12 Q. Looking at decision number 129 and I just read for Your Honours

13 what that decision was about, we can see that Prijedor is marked black,

14 Bosanski Petrovac black and Banja Luka black. So if Mr. Treanor is given

15 first of all Exhibit P254, which is the actual decision that we are

16 referring to, dated the 22nd of June, and then if we look at Exhibit P255

17 at the same time as P1294, this is dealing with Prijedor municipality?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, if we are talking of dismissals, you

19 say that Prijedor is marked black, Bosanski Petrovac.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: And Banja Luka.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And Banja Luka, yes. That -- yeah. Has changed

22 with regard to Kotor Varos, no? Huh? Which was marked black before and

23 is marked grey now.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's concentrate on that.

Page 18833


2 Q. Looking, Mr. Treanor, as Exhibit P52 -- P254, it shows the ARK

3 Crisis Staff decision. Looking at P255, that is -- do you have Exhibit

4 P255? Usher can you assist Mr. Treanor?

5 A. Yes, I do, I do, I do. P254 seems to -- yes, yes, okay. Yes. I

6 have them both.

7 Q. And then if we look at P255, the page -- it's a one page from --

8 signed by -- signature block Milomir Stakic, I think?

9 A. In 255?

10 Q. I'm sorry for the confusion, if we can go to Exhibit P1294 I

11 think this may speed things up. That is P1294 is a report on the

12 implementation of the conclusions of the Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff

13 dated the 13th of July, 1992.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it's signed -- signature block is the secretary of the

16 municipal assembly, Dusan Baltic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. If we look at the bottom of -- it's informing of the conclusions

19 at the bottom of paragraph 1, this -- the first paragraph, this service is

20 to compile a report on the implementation of conclusions adopted at its

21 sessions. And at the bottom of the paragraph it says, "The decision of

22 the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina in Banja Luka number

23 03-531/92 dated the 22nd of June on filling vacant management and other

24 posts valid for the running of the economy was implemented in the public

25 security station."

Page 18834

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. So that document shows that the decision numbered 03-531/92 was

3 implemented, and that's why it's marked black on the page 119, which has

4 now been substituted --

5 A. Yes, because it contains explicit reference to the decision that

6 it's implementing.

7 Q. If you can look now at Exhibit P1879, it is a document from the

8 Bosanski Petrovac municipality, and does that explicitly state that that

9 decision has been implemented in Bosanski Petrovac?

10 A. In the first paragraph, in the body of the document, it states

11 pursuant to item 2 of the Krajina AR Crisis Staff decision number

12 03-531/92 dated 22 June, 1992, we hereby inform that you the following

13 steps from item 1 of the decision have been implemented in the territory

14 of our municipality, yes.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, let's cut this short. And let's

17 take it for granted that with regard to Prijedor, with regard to Bosanski

18 Petrovac and with regard to Banja Luka, there are supporting documents

19 containing confirmation that the dismissal instruction or that the

20 decision regarding dismissals was implemented in those municipalities.

21 Let's concentrate on Kotor Varos where there is the change. What I would

22 like to know is why before there was a conclusion that the decision 531/92

23 was implemented in Kotor Varos and now we have a grey decision that is

24 concurrent evidence and not conclusive evidence, because that is

25 ultimately what is important. Otherwise I think we can follow these

Page 18835

1 ourselves.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour I was going to do that.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I said let's cut it short in fact. I

4 expected you to do that.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can just first deal with the Kotor Varos

6 document, I'm just getting the exhibit number, Your Honour. If Your

7 Honour goes to, and Mr. Treanor and the Defence, if you go to page 170 of

8 the report, 171 of the report, you can see there that the decision 129

9 which is the decision we are referring to, which is 03-531/92, it's listed

10 there in relation to implementation in Kotor Varos but there is no

11 supporting material for that other than a document dated the 6th of

12 August, 1992, which is a request to relieve Tihomir Tesic, a member of the

13 VRS Light Infantry Brigade in Kotor Varos because he's appointed as a war

14 director of the Paratva Durvita [phoen] company. It's not -- I don't know

15 the exhibit number at the moment, Your Honour, but I've got a copy here.

16 I'm sorry, only in English. If it can go on to the -- if it can be given

17 to Mr. Treanor and then put on the ELMO.

18 Q. Mr. Treanor, when you looked at this document, it was determined

19 that it was not conclusive evidence and therefore that was why it was

20 determined to change this box from black to grey, was it not?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm moving on to Banja Luka now.

23 Could the witness be shown a document disclosure number 3.504? And if

24 that can be provisionally marked as P2372?

25 Q. Sir, this is from the prison in Banja Luka. Is there explicit

Page 18836

1 reference to the decision we have been referring to being implemented?

2 A. Yes, again we see right at the beginning of the document, in fact

3 in the subject line, the statement information on the realisation of tasks

4 outlined in decision 03-531/92 of 22 June, 1992. The document then goes

5 on to say that we hereby inform that you we have carried out our

6 obligations as ordered and goes on to describe the measures taken.

7 Q. Thank you. In relation to disarmament, and that was another one

8 that had been amended, I just want to quickly take you to the Kotor Varos

9 document, where it was shaded black and it's now been determined that it

10 should be shaded grey.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness could be shown, please, P631? And

12 Your Honours if you go to page 169 of the report, you will see decision 20

13 which is the decision where the shading has now been changed. And that --

14 because on reviewing this document, Exhibit P631, it was determined

15 that it was a daily combat report from the 1st Krajina Corps to the 2nd

16 Military District and although -- and it referred to the extended deadline

17 for the surrender of weapons being extended from the 11th to the 14th,

18 which is what the ARK Crisis Staff decision in this document, on page 169,

19 numbered 20, which is the ARK Crisis Staff decision 03-308/92, to which

20 that refers to the deadline being extended from the 11th to the 14th and

21 if you want to confirm that, Mr. Treanor, you can look at Exhibit P227,

22 which is the big Official Gazette document, it is decision number 7 within

23 Exhibit P227, and the first conclusion is the deadline for the surrender

24 of illegally acquired weapons has been extended to the 14th of May, 1992,

25 at 2400 hours but as I say getting back to this document from Kotor Varos,

Page 18837

1 it was determined because this was a 1 KK document and not a municipality

2 document it was determined that it should be shaded grey and not black

3 because it wasn't conclusive evidence of the municipality implementing the

4 ARK Crisis Staff decision; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it merely records the fact that there was such a decision.

6 Q. Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland.

8 THE WITNESS: Higher command if that's the case.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: These corrections are the result of discussions you

10 had and verifications you had with Mr. Treanor.

11 MS. SUTHERLAND: As I said, Your Honour, I wanted to although

12 Mr. Treanor didn't write that section of the report I wanted to just

13 briefly show you one example of the three, a disarmament decision a

14 dismissal and a resettlement.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Was Mr. Aguirre involved in the exercise of revising

16 reviewing the conclusions.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Mr. Treanor and I -- I took a decision and I

18 said that I would like to perhaps show this one and when we reviewed the

19 documents in order to show the example, Mr. Treanor and I -- it was

20 determined that we needed to change this thing. Mr. Aguirre was spoken

21 to, he agreed with both of the changes and therefore he provided me with

22 new lists.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right. Thank you.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have approximately -- I have one other document

25 that I would like to show you.

Page 18838

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go through it and then we break and I hope

2 Mr. Treanor can be released so that he can have a well-deserved rest.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have another couple of questions

4 in relation to Mr. Brdjanin's appointments after the ARK Crisis Staff and

5 also there was a question from you the day before yesterday in relation to

6 who was vice-president of the Republika Srpska in 1993 and I was going to

7 have Mr. Treanor deal with that so that would take approximately ten

8 minutes after the break.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. All right.

10 MS. SUTHERLAND: So if we can --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a break now, I think. That's wiser.

12 I'll take Judge Janu's advice. 25 minutes. Thank you.

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I've just

18 noticed something just in relation to this last thing that we were talking

19 about. So I will need to go back to that quickly.

20 Mr. Treanor, Defence and Judges can you please turn to page 169 of

21 the report. It's part of the annexes but it's -- and that sets out the

22 documentary evidence of implementation of ARK Crisis Staff decisions for

23 Kotor Varos and you can see that decision number 129 which is on page 171

24 is included within a box of a number of other decisions, for example,

25 number 14, number 29, number 79, number 80, and number 108, 111, and 129.

Page 18839

1 And they are all dealing with the fact that all management posts in

2 enterprises must be held by Serbs absolutely loyal to the Serbian

3 republic, leading posts in social and public organisations may be occupied

4 only by the most professional cadre, and so you have to look at all the

5 decisions as a whole to determine whether there is conclusive evidence or

6 cumulative evidence, and it's my understanding on looking at this one,

7 that that is why Mr. Aguirre formed the opinion that this should have been

8 black and not shaded grey. And we have mentioned a moment ago just one

9 piece of evidence in relation to the person called Tesic but if you look

10 on the previous page there is a decision dated the 24th of July, 1992, and

11 a decision dated the 12th of June, 1992, and another one on the 5th of

12 August, dealing with those matters. So you have to take all those pieces

13 of evidence into account, and the same can be shown, if we can quickly

14 turn to page 155 -- or 154 deals with the documentary evidence to do with

15 Sanski Most and if you just look at decision number 20, which is the 11th

16 of May decision about the extension of the deadlines for surrendering

17 weapons from the 11th to the 14th of May, there is actually no specific

18 evidence dealing with that but if you take all of these decisions as a

19 whole dealing with disarmament and that is numbers 11, 18, 20, 30, 35, 44,

20 46, and 47, that's how Mr. Aguirre determines that Sanski Most decision

21 should be black, if you look at Exhibit P2351.1, the new appendix, you

22 will see that all those decisions dealing with disarmament, and that is

23 why that's blocked out with black text.

24 So if I can move on, Your Honour -- Your Honours, I'm sorry --

25 to -- if you turn to page 90 of the report -- not page 90, I'm sorry.

Page 18840

1 Yes, 90. That sets out, if we look at decision number 9, that's an ARK

2 Crisis Staff decision of the 8th of May, 1992, and in the conclusion, it's

3 for the presidents of the national defence councils to supplied detailed

4 information to the war staff of the ARK about mobilisation in their

5 municipalities and if we go now to page 112, which is the overview of the

6 implementation of the items, and we look at decision number 9, we can see

7 for Bosanski Petrovac it is blank but if we look at the new table that was

8 given to Your Honours a moment ago, P2351.3, and we look at decision

9 number 9, we can see that it's now black and I want to now go to that

10 document which is a new document which was provided by Mr. Hidic, if you

11 recall, after he testified he said that he had a number of documents, and

12 this is one of the documents and it was disclosed to the Defence on the

13 28th of May.

14 Q. So Mr. Treanor if you could look at this document here, and I

15 provide copies for Your Honours.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Can we get some designation beyond this document.

17 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's dated -- sorry Mr. Ackerman, it's dated the

18 10th of May, 1992. It's signed by the president of the council for

19 National Defence, Rajko Novakovic. And it's information on the conducting

20 of mobilisation in the municipality of Bosanski Petrovac.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Hidic was not a protected witness?

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. I wouldn't have mentioned his

23 name.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, I'm just checking on you.


Page 18841

1 Q. Mr. Treanor, does this document show conclusive evidence that the

2 municipal body implemented the ARK Crisis Staff decision numbered

3 02-279/92, which is numbered 9 in -- for our purposes in the overview?

4 A. I believe it's number 03-297/92.

5 Q. And does it state in that document, in connection with your

6 document, and the number that you just stated, dated the 8th of May, 1992,

7 "We inform you that in the area of Bosanski Petrovac municipality, upon

8 its announcement that general mobilisation of conscripts and material,

9 technical equipment was conducted --"

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. "-- which was in accordance with the existing list."

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour this document is already in evidence as

14 P1828.

15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. I did a check of those

16 last exhibits and Petrovac exhibits and I didn't find it. That's why I

17 provided the copies. I will just have Ms. Gustin check that so we don't

18 move on before we give it a number if it needs one. No. It's a different

19 document. It's -- that document is dated the 10th of May.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: So is the one I was just handed. They are

21 identical.

22 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: They are absolutely identical documents, the

24 translation is a little different. The disclosure on the original was

25 4.953. But it's absolutely the same document, same date, same content,

Page 18842

1 same everything.

2 MS. SUTHERLAND: You're right, just different ERN numbers and

3 that's where the confusion arises.

4 Q. So Mr. Treanor, you can close your report now. We have finished

5 with the implementation of the ARK Crisis Staff decisions.

6 Are you aware of Mr. Brdjanin's appointments after September,

7 1992?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you briefly explain to the Court what position he took up?

10 A. Yes. First of all, it was necessary to observe that in September,

11 1992, the Bosnian Serb assembly abolished the regional structure within

12 the republic. That is it abolished the Autonomous Region of Krajina and

13 the other Serbian autonomous districts. At the same time -- virtually the

14 same time, on September the 15th, the assembly appointed Radoslav Brdjanin

15 to be an acting vice-president of the government of the Republika Srpska,

16 and at the same time, also appointed Nikola Erceg, who was the -- until

17 that time had been the president of the executive council of ARK, to be a

18 minister in the government. That government continued in office until

19 the -- technically until in January 1993. In November, 1992, Mr. Djeric,

20 Branko Djeric, the president of the government resigned which entailed

21 the formation of a new government which was formed at the beginning of

22 January -- 23 January, 1993. Vladimir Lukic was the new president of that

23 government, that is prime minister and Mr. Brdjanin was named to be a

24 minister in that government.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically as I take it he was acting or deputy

Page 18843

1 prime minister from September to the 23rd of January at the latest?


3 JUDGE AGIUS: After that, he became a minister? In the new

4 government?


6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, just in relation to the deputy prime

7 ministers --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: How many of them there were?

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, I have an Official Gazette here. I don't

10 have an English translation of it but if I could provide this to

11 Mr. Treanor.

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is the decision of the 20th of January, in

13 fact, 1993, passed by the assembly electing the new government.


15 Q. And who does it name there as vice-president?

16 A. Branko Ostojic is named as vice-president of the government for

17 the economy and Vitomir Popovic as vice-president of the government for

18 internal policy.

19 Q. Does that satisfy Your Honours' questions?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That's what it says.


22 Q. Are you aware whether they held the posts throughout 1993?

23 A. Those gentlemen, I'm not sure. I know that Mr. Lukic remained in

24 office through 1993 and I believe even until 1994, but these members of

25 the government, I'm not sure.

Page 18844

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you very much, Mr. Treanor. I have no

2 further questions.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Mr. Treanor, as I explained to you

4 earlier on, cross-examination will take place sometime in October, I would

5 say, and so your testimony for the time being -- I should like to take

6 this opportunity to thank you for bearing with us. I know it's not an

7 easy topic to deal with, and your report is -- covers a lot of territory

8 and must be tiring also for you to testify on it. So I do appreciate your

9 cooperation and your patience and your testimony has been extremely

10 helpful for this Tribunal. We will certainly see you again and until

11 then, we wish you some holidays at least. Some holidays. Yes

12 Ms. Sutherland?

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'd just publicly like to thank

14 Mr. Treanor for bearing with me.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not easy. I mean I realize that this was one

16 of the heaviest testimonies we had and it just -- there is no way you can

17 avoid it because it's technical and complicated in itself. And I think

18 Mr. Treanor has helped us a lot in the way he has testified so I thank

19 you, Mr. Treanor.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: There is an application I would make in relation

21 to Mr. Treanor and also in order to Mr. Brown and that is that the Office

22 of the Prosecutor be allowed to converse with Mr. Treanor, certainly not

23 on any matters relating to his evidence, and the same for Mr. Brown, but

24 because of the functions, the position that Mr. Treanor holds and also

25 Mr. Brown in the military analyst's unit we need to be able to talk to

Page 18845

1 them on other matters and if it wasn't for Mr. Ackerman's request to

2 postpone cross-examination, then it normally wouldn't have caused a

3 problem but if it's not going to happen for the next three months it's

4 going to create difficulties in the office.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ackerman, leave Mr. Brown for the time

6 being, we will discuss Mr. Brown next week when he finishes the in chief.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I think it's a reasonable

8 request and probably necessary. I just would comment that it highlights

9 the folly of having an employee of your office as an expert witness. It

10 makes no sense to me.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I intervened when we had the case of the

12 expert on propaganda. Any way, but the answer basically is yes. Be

13 cautious, obviously use your good judgement, you and the others in your

14 office dealing with this case. Otherwise, I entrust you doing that. I

15 have no reason to doubt your integrity. So --

16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You understood what's going on?


19 JUDGE AGIUS: Usually until your testimony is complete, you should

20 not allow anyone to approach you or discuss anything with you, but things

21 being what they are, in other words that the cross-examination will take

22 place in a few months' time, and knowing that the Prosecution may need to

23 discuss other matters with you, they are being granted permission to

24 approach you and provided you are approached on other matters and not the

25 contents of your testimony, then obviously you are free and you have every

Page 18846

1 right to cooperate with them.

2 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. I think I understand.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you once more, Mr. Treanor.

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, I think I see Mr. Koumjian, you are taking

7 over. I think we ought to remain in open session until we clear up the

8 preliminaries and then we go into closed session if we decide to start

9 hearing the witness. Do you agree, Mr. Ackerman?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Your Honour, I was just wondering if it would

11 cause horrible difficulties if we adjourn for the day? Since there is

12 only 30 minutes left anyhow. Otherwise I'm going to have to ask for about

13 a ten minute recess anyhow.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would prefer the ten minute recess. I understand

15 Mr. Ackerman's problem, hoping that at least one witness will finish this

16 week, if not both, so that we can send at least one person home.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: What I suggest -- I will give the break because I'm

18 not going to question that. On the other hand, I think if you follow the

19 procedure that we have adopted these last few weeks, in other words meet

20 beforehand, you and the Defence, and agree before how you're going to

21 split the time that you have to finish these next three witnesses, it

22 would be extremely more helpful. In the meantime, this morning, I think

23 after this short break that we are conceding, we need to discuss some

24 preliminaries, particularly in view of the motion filed by Mr. Ackerman

25 and handed to us this morning, which I have -- which we have gone through

Page 18847

1 and which requires at least some preliminary comments and measures to be

2 taken before we start with the next witness. All right?

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Fine. Just remind you the next witness is in

4 closed session.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that but the preliminaries need not be,

6 provided we don't mention names, I think the preliminaries ought to be in

7 public, in open session, and it's very important that they are in open

8 session. I don't want to have anything in secret dealing with these

9 matters. Thank you.

10 --- Break taken at 1.19 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, where is Mr. Koumjian?

13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, he just raced upstairs to get the

14 case law in case Mr. Ackerman was going to argue it.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We are not going to argue any case law today.

16 Certainly not going to argue case law not having given you the time to

17 file a response to Mr. Ackerman's motion. Of course, if you want to take

18 the next 15 minutes to respond to it orally, you can do that and we can

19 come with an oral decision tomorrow morning but basically, I can

20 anticipate what our oral decision is going to be, that, as I explained

21 earlier on, this is a serious matter which deserves the utmost attention.

22 The admissibility of intercept telephone conversations involves basically

23 two legal -- basic legal aspects. One is that of legality, whether they

24 have been legally obtained, and second is the question of authenticity.

25 The first one is complicated and requires some debate. The second one, I

Page 18848

1 dare say, without the least reservation, that I -- together with my two

2 colleagues, would be in a position to reach a conclusion only after having

3 heard evidence and having gone through what happened in other cases and

4 having also read the statements that have been given, not all of them,

5 because most of them came this morning, but what I had yesterday, that's

6 five statements I went through, we will need to wait until we are in a

7 position to decide on this matter, and I think it would be most unfair on

8 us and on you in particular, to force it on you to debate the legal issues

9 involved before we have concluded all the evidence on these transcripts,

10 on these -- on the transcripts of these intercepts and heard all the

11 evidence. I think that is of the utmost importance. The position that we

12 are taking therefore basically for the time being is that we will admit

13 all the intercepts that the Prosecution proposes to tender into evidence

14 for the time being, with the big caveat that we'll just give them a

15 number, allow witnesses to make reference to them, and then with the

16 understanding that at the end of the story, we will then decide whether

17 they will continue to form part of the records of this case or whether

18 they will be just expunged, taken out of the records and forgotten. It

19 wouldn't have been a wasted time if we come to that conclusion because the

20 matter is of the utmost importance. If they are legal and authentic, then

21 they obviously deserve a place. If they are not legal or if they are not

22 authentic, or if they are neither of the two, neither legal nor authentic,

23 then obviously we still have to decide whether under Rule 95 we should

24 admit them because Rule 95 leaves no such discretion to this Tribunal. It

25 is a mandatory clause, if they are -- do not satisfy the test established

Page 18849

1 under Rule 95, our obligation is to throw them overboard. So that's the

2 position. Any comments, Mr. Ackerman?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there are a couple of things. The

4 motion was produced hastily. I actually was -- started working on it at

5 4.30 this morning so I noticed that in that section of the motion where I

6 discuss the case -- the Delalic case and the statement of Mr. Music that

7 was dealt with pursuant to Rule 95, I'm not sure I made it clear that the

8 issue there was slightly different in that the statement was taken by the

9 Austrian police in accordance with Austrian law. So -- as far as Austrian

10 law was concerned, there was no violation but the issue there was that it

11 violated at least the law of this Tribunal as well as some international

12 covenants and that sort of thing. That's a difference I'm not sure I

13 pointed out as clearly as I should have. The other thing is that you

14 asked me yesterday about -- when you made an oral ruling on a motion about

15 two witnesses, 7.189 and 7.278, about whether I would want them brought

16 for cross-examination.


18 MR. ACKERMAN: I have looked at their statements, Your Honour, and

19 I think primarily they go to the technical aspects.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so too.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Of these, and so that's not a very -- I don't think

22 there would be any need to cross-examine them regarding the technical

23 aspects of these intercepts. There is a witness, 7.241, however, who was

24 significant information regarding the legality of these matters who

25 probably should be brought for cross-examination.

Page 18850

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Mr. Koumjian, and one other thing before

2 you -- Mr. Ackerman, I also notice in paragraph 13 of your motion that you

3 have stated that Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic were the SDA members

4 of the Presidency so I think you owe both of them an apology.

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I do. And that was probably at 5.15 this morning

6 that that mistake was made and thank you for pointing that out.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Koumjian?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, we will respond in writing today to

9 the first issue that Your Honour raised, the issue raised in

10 Mr. Ackerman's motion, the legality of the admission of these intercepts

11 under Rule 95. The witnesses will address the second issue that Your

12 Honour raised which is the authenticity. I understand Mr. Ackerman gave a

13 hasty, the time pressures on him to produce his motion. Also we are under

14 time pressure to produce a response but I would like if Your Honours would

15 give me a moment to add a few comments orally regarding that. We do take

16 the position that the domestic laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina were complied

17 with, but it's my submission to Your Honours that this Tribunal should not

18 be determining on a case-by-case basis whether or not evidence admitted

19 here complies with the domestic law. It would lead to what I think could

20 be the rather absurd position, for example, that one piece of evidence is

21 admissible under Bosnian law, not admissible under Croatian law,

22 admissible under the laws of Macedonia, not admissible under the laws of

23 Yugoslavia. In addition when we are dealing with evidence that's going to

24 war crimes and crimes against humanity, Your Honours know that often the

25 very best evidence comes from electronic eavesdropping, not only by

Page 18851

1 parties to the dispute, political or in armed conflict but by third

2 parties and the -- this is going to be very probative evidence that is

3 done by all -- virtually all countries around the world. I think it would

4 have a very bad effect on future Prosecutions of these very serious crimes

5 if the Court takes the position that it's going to exclude evidence that's

6 electronically obtained.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I never said that, Mr. Koumjian.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm just raising the issue for something for Your

9 Honours to consider.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: With regard to legality if you follow the

11 proceedings or the transcript of the proceedings in the case against

12 Slobodan Milosevic, going back to the 27th and 30th of September of last

13 year, you will immediately see that the Trial Chamber then did attach

14 great importance to the question of legality as being always and

15 constantly in the background of any decision it might have to take later

16 on and in that case, it never came to a decision, and I don't know if in

17 this case we would need to come to a decision but the question of legality

18 obviously plays an important part, as the question of authenticity.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: My position is, Your Honour --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One of the witnesses you're bringing forward saying

21 I'm not in a position to testify -- I'm not in a position to recognise,

22 for example, Mr. Brdjanin's voice. So where do you take it up from there

23 you will have to find a solution if you are faced with that problem.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, going back to the legality issue Your Honour.

25 Another point I wanted to bring to Your Honour's attention, is that all of

Page 18852

1 the intercepts that we are offering were recorded before the creation of

2 this Tribunal. The exclusionary rule that exists in -- where it does

3 exist and many countries do not have it, it exists for the purposes of a

4 prophylactic rule to prevent abuses by the police. In this case, this

5 Tribunal did not even exist at the time of these interceptions took place.

6 And, in fact, Your Honours know that whatever this Court rules or this

7 Tribunal rules electronic interceptions are going to take place around the

8 world. You're not going to stop it by not admitting it in war crimes

9 trials. The only result will be that very important evidence would be

10 excluded.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I would even recommend it as absolutely necessary.

12 And I come incidentally so that you -- both of you are aware of this, I

13 come from a jurisdiction where the exclusionary rule is not adopted, is

14 not applied.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are -- my country, we are a far cry from what

17 the position is in the States and I would say very, very near to what the

18 position is in the United Kingdom. That's the position.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: If Your Honour could indulge me for a couple of

20 more minutes we get such a few opportunities to talk about the law and

21 domestic law. One thing I would point out as Mr. Ackerman and

22 Mr. Cunningham would know from United States practice is that, in fact, if

23 this was a case in the United States, the only intercepts which

24 Mr. Brdjanin would have standing to challenge would be those in which he

25 himself is a party. The Defence here has challenged all intercepts, the

Page 18853

1 majority of those Mr. Brdjanin is not even a party to. And I think it

2 would lead to a very absurd result if we looked at national laws in one

3 country, a third country is intercepting conversations and that would be

4 admissible because under their national security it's admissible while

5 another country in this case, very involved in the situation,

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, their interceptions would not be admissible. They are

7 the ones most affected because it violates, reportedly violates the

8 national law. Again it's our position which we will give in the written

9 motion that this, in fact, was in compliance with the laws of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Thank you for your patience.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. I think the position therefore is as

12 follows. The legal debate will take place at the appropriate time. It

13 also means that we will be expecting a written response from you and if

14 you want to update your objection at a later point after having had more

15 time to think about it, Mr. Ackerman, you are free to do so. In other

16 words, to replace your objection with a more comprehensive document. You

17 are free to do so.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I appreciate it very much because I

19 think it would enhance its credibility if I could do that and I would be

20 happy to do that.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: On my part I will be studying the motions and

22 response that were filed in Krajisnik Plavsic. I haven't gone through

23 those as yet. I don't know the relevance but I still have to go into

24 those. And other -- and other documents of this Tribunal. The intercepts

25 are being admitted with the caveat that I explained earlier on, and

Page 18854

1 Mr. Koumjian, you're free to make use of any one of them with any of the

2 witnesses you intend to bring forward, then we decide at a later stage on

3 what will require a decision. All right? Shall we bring in the witness?

4 And I explain to him --

5 MR. ACKERMAN: That's fine, Your Honour. I just want to make sure

6 that nobody believes that I'm challenging the admissibility of electronic

7 surveillance evidence per se. I'm not at all.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: It's a question, I have had to deal with it in my

9 country just as I have had to deal with exclusionary evidence,

10 eavesdropping even by third parties not involved in the police or in the

11 security services so it's not a new subject. It's not a subject that I

12 like but it's not a new subject. Neither this nor the exclusionary rule.

13 All right? Do you want to bring in the witness or do you want to explain

14 to him yourself, Mr. Koumjian?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you want to show his face now or do you want to

17 show his face tomorrow morning.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Koumjian, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Explain to him that we do apologise to him for

20 having kept him here.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Koumjian, please.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Let me please put the Defence and Your Honours -- I

23 wanted to authenticate these documents, it may not be apparent from the

24 statements. A witness that's going to testify has provided many of these

25 to us and many others -- a few others have come from other persons

Page 18855

1 associated with the same organisation. We are preparing a declaration by

2 an investigator indicating the source of each of the individual intercepts

3 that we got, in other words who it was that provided it on such and such a

4 date and that will be provided as a 92 bis declaration submitted to the

5 Court, just to link the individual intercepts with how we obtained it. I

6 will not ask the witness to go through each intercept. I think it would

7 be a waste of the Court's time.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You will need to explain, for example, going through

9 one of the statements yesterday I came across specific reference to one

10 intercept which was made use of either yesterday or the day before by

11 Mr. Treanor and that's the intercept of the telephone conversation dated

12 17th and 18th of December, I think -- or of --

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: August, Ms. Sutherland says.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: It seems to me that this witness refers to it and

15 says that the date is wrong. It was March or May. So prepare yourselves

16 because when it comes to authenticity, you will have to prove well beyond

17 reasonable doubt. If we have a doubt about a single -- the authenticity

18 of a single intercept, we'll throw it out straight away. All right?

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: We will discuss it. Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. See you tomorrow morning.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 1.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

23 the 4th day of July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.